#elder-scrolls-lore

1 messages · Page 25 of 1

spiral aspen
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We know by Skyrim and Dragonborn DLC that this stuff NEVER happened, never existed and have actual info, written one and info from people who lived there for +100-200 years what was happen in Soltsheim since end of 3 era, to 4 era 181 and etc.

sharp lantern
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Neither Skyrim nor Dragonborn disprove the Novels my dude.

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Are you one of those guys who thinks Skyrim, in lore, has a larger population of bandits than normal citizens?

spiral aspen
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Where is ex-Indoril House Satil, where their town and huge castle in Soltsheim?

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Skyrim and Dragonborn+some creation club mods(Umbra) sold by Bethesda existence already disprove and erase huge parts of Greg Kyze novels stuff.

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We have entire history of Soltsheim since end of 3 era

sharp lantern
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You can feel free to headcanon what happened to House Sathil in the 153 years since the Novels.

sharp lantern
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You haven't provided anything to actually disprove the Novels... just went on and on about how things have changed in over 150 years... and this is apparently "impossible."

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Did the Oblivion Crisis never happen just because there is only a couple books talking about it? 🤔

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You're also yet to answer my question - do you also ignore the contents of the Pocket Guides?

spiral aspen
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You never answer any of mine question except trying pushing part about 150 years pass to explain how in Skyrim noone from people older then 150 years old do not remember, not talk about anything about it and not a single soul do not wrote anything about huge apocalypse in large parts of eastern Tamriel continent with huge zombie armies, and entire town controlled by Indoril House with huge stone castle with port with a lot of ships what was never existed and mentioned by anyone and contradicting with ACTUAL info about what happen on Soltsheim ruled by House Redoran since end of 3 era after they literally annex it from Septim Empire what abbandon it and not give reinforcements to Imperial fort.

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History of Raven Rock and entire content of Dragonborn DLC is more then enought

sharp lantern
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You need to learn what "contradicting" means. None of the contents of the Novels are contradicted.

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By your rationale, Tel Mithryn doesn't exist because there are no books speaking of it.

spiral aspen
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Those stuff what i mentione and what was a huge part of those books never existed in game in any way

sharp lantern
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And?

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It is still canon.

signal raptor
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Let's remember to keep things civil please

sharp lantern
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Same way how the Nerevarine becoming Hortator is canon - even though we have no later "confirmation" of it.

spiral aspen
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Neloth and etc

sharp lantern
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Doesn't call the Nerevarine the Hortator in Dragonborn

spiral aspen
# sharp lantern Doesn't call the Nerevarine the Hortator in *Dragonborn*

Cos +200 years ago he do mention this...

Telvanni Hortator

    [Disposition < 40] "No. No. No. Not another word. What the hell are you talking about? And who do you think you are? NO. Just shut up! Nonsense! Superstitious nonsense! Don't interrupt me with such foolishness. Just shut up and go away."
    [40 ≤ Disposition < 70] "What are you going on about? Prophecies, visions, superstitious jibber-jabber? Don't interrupt me with that nonsense. Go bother some bone-through-the-nose shaman or bug-eating wise woman."
    [Disposition ≥ 70] "Hortator? War leader of House Telvanni? Is that necessary? Why doesn't anyone tell me about these things? So. Do you want the job? Are you qualified? Good. Then go ahead. I don't care. Be the Hortator. Now go away."

[If you haven't collected all of the other councilors' votes yet] "Just go. Be the Hortator. Leave me alone."
"So? You got the votes of all the surviving Telvanni councilors? Yes, I know. That means you are Hortator of House Telvanni. But what makes you think I give a damn? Go pester Master Aryon if you want someone to talk to."

If you speak with him after being named Hortator of House Telvanni, he says:

Telvanni Hortator

    "So? You're Hortator now? Fine. But what makes you think I give a damn? Just shut up and go away."

And finally, if you mention this topic while you are the Archmagister of House Telvanni, Neloth says:

Telvanni Hortator

    "Fine. Whatever. I don't mean to be rude, Archmagister, but shouldn't you be talking to young Aryon? This whole Hortator business sounds like something he's be interested in. I want no part of it. Now, if you'll excuse me..." Goodbye.
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So yeah not the same stuff as not existing town and castle

sharp lantern
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Using TES III to prove TES III is like using the Novels to prove the Novels, and clearly you aren't fond of doing that lol.

spiral aspen
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If dude not care +200 years ago why should he tell about Nerevarine what not exist in Tamriel for +200 years?

sharp lantern
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If the Redoran don't make reference to a Telvanni settlement, then why should they about a Sathil one that once existed?

spiral aspen
# sharp lantern If the Redoran don't make reference to a Telvanni settlement, then why should th...

Not again...

Yes. they did.

Do you rule all of Solstheim? "Solstheim is theoretically under my rule, but without revenue from the mine, I lack the resources to actually govern anything but Raven Rock itself. Not that there's much beyond the confines of our town anyway."

Raven Rock the only settlement on the island?

"Well, there's a small enclave of Nords to the north at Skaal village. They pretty much keep to themselves, and we both like it that way. Then there's Tel Mithryn to the east. The Telvanni live over there... sort of a strange lot, but since we're both from Morrowind, we get along. Other than that, Solstheim is crawling with bandits and Rieklings, but that's to be expected living on the frontier like this."

sharp lantern
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But does History of Raven Rock make reference to Tel Mithryn? No. It does not.

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You're complaining about a lack of reference to a settlement which no longer exists.

spiral aspen
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You do realise that actual members of House Indoril live in Raven Rock?

sharp lantern
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Name one.

spiral aspen
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Go into Temple with crypt in Raven Rock

sharp lantern
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Or is this where you're going to take CC as canon?

spiral aspen
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Not a single CC, base Dragonborn dlc

sharp lantern
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There are no Indoril in Dragonborn

spiral aspen
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😹

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Temple priests are

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read The Reclamations: The Fall of the Tribunal and the Rise of the New Temple

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There 100% was no ex-House Indoril House Satil with huge port, town and huge stone castle and etc.

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Their existence is impossible and have zero sense, not to mention there was no ruins or any mention of their existense

sharp lantern
# spiral aspen read The Reclamations: The Fall of the Tribunal and the Rise of the New Temple

Do it yourself. They are de facto considered the same, but they aren't.

"While House Indoril still technically exists, the priesthood of the Temple are now considered one and the same with House Indoril - those who become priests are now considered to have "joined Indoril." The political power of the Indoril has thus passed entirely into the hands of the Temple (although members of the old House Indoril are still over-represented in the priesthood)."

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The literal Elder of that temple used to be an Ashlander😂

Also notice how it says "joined Indoril" in air quotes?

sharp lantern
spiral aspen
# sharp lantern Do it yourself. They are *de facto* considered the same, but they aren't. *"Whi...

Old one not exist anymore.

the former Dissident Priests were in full control of the Temple heirarchy , with Tribunal loyalists either purged or recanted. The so-called "New Temple" now declared the worship of the Tribunes a result of misguided teaching, blaming the mistakes on the former Tribunal. The Temple now taught that the daedra venerated by the Ashlander tribes (Azura, Mephala and Boethia) were the "true way" and should be revered by the Dunmer people. Fittingly, the daedra were named the "Reclamations," as if they were reclaiming their status from the Tribunal.

In an elegant comprise, no doubt intended to reconcile the large majority of the Temple priesthood who were neither Dissidents nor fanatic Tribunal loyalists, Almalexia, Sotha Sil and Vivec were relegated to the status of "saints," a traditional way to venerate the most honored Dunmer ancestors. This apparently satisfied enough of the existing priesthood that the New Temple was able to maintain at least a semblance of outward continuity.

The rise of the New Temple almost completely vindicated the previously persecuted Ashlanders, who had continued to worship the three daedra throughout the Tribunal's rule. The Ashlanders are now lauded as the keepers of the old ways and having "true vision." It is now quite common for many of the Dunmer people to make the arduous pilgrimages into the ash wastes to seek the counsel of the Wise Women. These women have supposedly opened the eyes of those who they claim were "blinded by the Tribunal," and directly connect the eruption of the Red Mountain and the Argonian invasion to the anger of the three daedra.

sharp lantern
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Did you just copy and paste a wiki article 💀

spiral aspen
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As you not copy it from Skyrim😹

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Before me

sharp lantern
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Game > Wiki article

spiral aspen
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We have direct copy of book

sharp lantern
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And said article doesn't even disprove what I said 💀

spiral aspen
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Priests of Temple are officially part of Great House Indoril, modern one after Vivec and etc was gone. Old House Indoril members, survived ones are all part of Temple

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Ashlanders and Dissident Priests not segragated for +190 years

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House Indoril NEVEr controlled Soltsheim except temple in Raven Rock, they 100% never could build town with huge stone castle and there was never huge ammount of ships what sailed there

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We have plenty of stuff as proof that Satil stuff never existed in any way. Not a word from any dunmer in Soltsheim, no written sources, nothing. Not a single piece of ruin.

sharp lantern
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We have canon content proving House Sathil did exist from the Novels.

spiral aspen
# sharp lantern We have canon content proving House Sathil did exist from the Novels.

We have entire Dragonborn dlc as proof that they never existed there ever and that it is literally impossible for those non Temple, old Indoril members to exist in almost abandoned after 3 era Soltsheim lands.

Not to mention impossible for them alone before 4e16 somehow build that Nord>Dunmer>Khajit town what would in 4e48 exist with huge stone castle with ~6-8 towers and +7.5 meter tall polished stone walls, and they cant have a lot of ships what somehow could sail there for unknown reasons instead of Raven Rock(where they loose a lot of ships after mines fail to provide ebony ore and East Empire company leave) or ruins of Fort Frostmoth which was devastated and abbandoned entirelly cos of Red Mountain eruption way before 4e48.

sharp lantern
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The Dragonborn DLC proves House Sathil never existed the same way Skyrim proves most of the population consists of bandits.

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Oh, and I guess food never rots either

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Compare Solstheim in TES III to Solstheim in TES V and see the differences on the island - the games have to cut back on scale for the sake of being able to run.

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Which Solstheim is true - Skyrim's or Morrowind's? 🤔

spiral aspen
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Raven Rock village check
Skaal village check
Karstaag castle ruins check
Frostmoth ruins check
Skaal Hall of heroes check.

Not a single ruins or mention of any Indoril House town with huge stone castle bigger then fort frostmoth before eruption and ships what sail there for unknown reasons cos what they produce to atract so much ships?

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Who build it, how build it and where this monstrocity was?

sharp lantern
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Totally irrelevant.

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Play both games and compare the islands - there are an insane amount of differences.

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Like a massive Dwemer ruin.

spiral aspen
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Nope. same with Sul machine and many other staff including elephant in the room Umbriel fortress of mass destruction and hordes of zombies what ruined Argonia, south Morrowind and east of Cyrodil

sharp lantern
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Or the ruins of the Temple of Miraak

spiral aspen
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They was digged as Dwemer ruins appear after eruption. Same way why some stuff was destroyed like Winterhall

sharp lantern
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Makes zero sense. The Dwemer Ruin is out in the sea.

spiral aspen
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BUT Satil and etc existed AFTEr eruption

sharp lantern
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As do some Nord ruins, and that Dwemer ruin.

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Clearly Morrowind isn't canon. Or Dragonborn. /s

spiral aspen
sharp lantern
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You haven't formed a single argument that doesn't amount to gameplay.

spiral aspen
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Some was digged

sharp lantern
spiral aspen
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Island almost the same and we have enought explanations how stuff appear

balmy salmon
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I wouldn't consider the omission of a ruin in the DLC as proof the novels didn't happen.

spiral aspen
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BUT nothing on Satil, NOTHING. It never existed in any way in single player game lore. Not in Morrowind, not in Oblivion, not in Skyrim. Huge castle with town and ships sail there for unknown reasons cos it is not a Raven Rock or Fort Frostmoth

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We have people who live in Soltsheim for +150 years and noone mention about such place and house and etc.

raw grail
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Heard of Granite Hill? Or Sutch?

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Granite Hill seems especially relevant! It doesn't appear in-game, but it does get mentioned in dialogue in-game

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Towns missing usually isn't that big of a deal. They include the parts they need to and ignore the parts they want, as ever

balmy salmon
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ESO retroactively gave TES IV a bunch of missing towns

raw grail
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We shouldn't change how we consider this just because the town is mentioned in a novel instead of in dialogue KS_AniShrug

spiral aspen
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We still have ruins of Sutch, we have zero mention of Satil house and town with castle and port.

raw grail
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Cuz they just weren't relevant. That's nothing major

spiral aspen
raw grail
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The novels? No, I haven't read them

spiral aspen
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I did before Skyrim

raw grail
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I need to get to it still, unfortunately

raw grail
# spiral aspen I did before Skyrim

I'm sorry it set you up for disappointment about the lack of the town! I can imagine that was annoying, especially cuz it does sound like kind of a cool town

spiral aspen
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Please read them, you will understand what i mean after reading them an comparing content

raw grail
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I mean I'm not too worried about the book portraying a different Solstheim* (typo) than Skyrim did

balmy salmon
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The castle from The Rear Guard isn't around in Skyrim anymore, but it was mentioned to have previously existed.

raw grail
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I've come to expect locations and concepts to be handled a bit differently by different writers, but generally I approach TES from the perspective that none of its (official) media is worth considering with more veracity than any other. Even Daggerfall and Arena have significant portions that are relevant to interpreting the world but aren't relevant to include in individual games

raw grail
balmy salmon
gaunt bear
# raw grail Oh?

Maybe the castle itself isn't, but the ruins are. Sounds like a new adventure in the works...

Dragonborn: And, once again, it'll be up to me to do all the heavy lifting, right?

raw grail
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xD

raw grail
spiral aspen
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Events of Cascabel Hall about what we have very little info was far more then +200 years ago.

robust lintel
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Curious, so if all 8 towers were to fall, with Ada being the last one to do so. Would the 8 Divine Aedra have their power restored to them?

pastel sorrel
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The towers beyond Adamantine and Red are just emulations and modifications of what's already going on, so I wouldn't expect those ones to actually matter that much beyond maintaining local narratives

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And even if Adamantine falls, Convention falling apart doesn't necessarily mean the bones of the earth stop being bones

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The power of the aedra is tied up in the world and its peoples. I'd imagine the entire thing would have to fall apart, and that wouldn't necessarily be a good thing for those involved.

robust lintel
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It's interesting to think what would happen when we don't really what or how it would happen. And I often wondered if the mimic towers, even though just being mimics, actually absorbed some of that power. It seems like they tend to fall during some sort of disaster event, so despite being mimics, perhaps they do hold some sort of importance that hasn't been revealed to us yet?

And it's just interesting how often thr number 8 or 9 pops up in the series. The nine coruscations was a fun read.

gaunt bear
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I actually have something in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction that’s focused on the towers:

After the opening of the Breach (and the return of the Dovah), the towers seemed to have responded to the energy released. After crafting a Dwemer eyepiece from blueprints recently recovered and decoded (and using molten glass specially exposed to the Fade to craft a lens for said eyepiece), Matthias was surprised to see a “column of white light” rising up out of the Throat of the World. However, questioning the spirits of the Fade has revealed only two things ||(so far)||:

  • The towers are “powering up”, and
  • They’re “getting ready to do what they’re supposed to do”.

But those two things can mean anything, so the Inquisition is preparing for the worst, but hoping for the best.

robust lintel
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Makes sense. The Thalmor are obsessed enough with them too.

pastel sorrel
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Effigies of dead gods, old rituals and motifs that are long past their original purposes but can still be used for stuff now

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At some point there were 8 or 9 or both who got set up with Convention and we're dealing with the recurring consequences

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(might've been entirely different numbers in previous cycles for all we know but there's "Eight" (plus One) set up now)

balmy salmon
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And of course, the Dwemer used Red Tower to create a new Tower, although until Talos found a workaround with the Mantella, activating it would have required removing Red Tower's stone.

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One of the theories about the fate of the Dwemer is that they partially undid the Death of the Earth Bones but instead of re-empowering the original spirits, they channeled that empowerment to a god of their own creation.

robust lintel
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Very cool

gaunt bear
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Vampires? I thought they were snake people. Are they?

waxen burrow
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.....I think some of the Akaviri may seem like Vampires because of their fangs.

glacial scarab
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Imperial filing cabinets.

Battlespier_3.jpg
uncut hatch
balmy salmon
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Files

uncut hatch
waxen burrow
gaunt bear
# balmy salmon Files

I’ve got something funny for that: Due to the Breach (and the return of the Dovah), people have started reporting getting attacked by “filing cabinet monsters”. After some ‘investigation’ (I.e. killing them), the Inquisition has determined that they’re the result of demons of procrastination (that’s the word they’re using for themselves) possessing filing cabinets overloaded with overdue work.

robust lintel
uncut hatch
gaunt bear
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<@&784552314911588403> <@&784552354183381052> It’s happening again.

cinder valley
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Thank you!

gaunt bear
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Thank you.

dark bramble
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@oblique token

spiral aspen
# raw grail I'm sorry it set you up for disappointment about the lack of the town! I can ima...

Its far far more

Those things do not exist in Skyrim+Dragonborn DLC lore entirelly. No mention anywhere. Not by people who lived in those timeline, no books, no letters, nothing. And we do have mention of many stuff in many places of Tamriel, minor and huge since end of 3 era to 4e200 years.

1)Emperror Atrebus Mede and his rule over Mede Empire, and this is impossible to not mention his existence as we do have entire Septim dynasty and etc who was before them.

We only have Titus Mede(and in Skyrim sources we have zero info that he started to rule in 4e22 and about his death in 4e48) and old Titus Mede 2 who by Skyrim timeline ruled 33 years and he was not a young man when he have Ruby Throne. Noone mention Emperror Atrebus as his father or else.

2)House Indoril-Satil and everything related to them on Soltheim, including huge stone castle(way bigger then fort Frosmoth)+dungeon and with Nordo>Khajit>Dunmer city-port what have a lot of ships in Soltsheim. Which existence clearly was simply impossible. Raven Rock was the only "big" setlement there in 3-4 era and they barelly could build 1 stone wall where they mine ebony ore to sell it.

3)Vivec Sul Machine and sacrifices+Clavius Vile involment which is not known by any dunmer, especially by those who lived in Vivec city or else closest places in Vvardenfel before eruption. House Telvanni mages+Indoril/Tribunal Temple priests do lived in Vivec too and noone mention anything about it which is not possible.

4)Enormous flying island Umbiel what have huge zombie hordes and created mass destructions in Argonia from south to north(destroy some Hist tree too)+south west Morrowind+east of Cyrodil. Not a word

5)Zero An-Xilel existence. By books they are known to Mede Empire and etc. In games lore there is 100% zero info, noone mention anything about them. No Argonia(Shadowscale too),Dunmer migrant from Argonia, And we have clear mention that Argonia King still existed and cut diplomatic relationships with Empire and etc.

spiral aspen
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Not to mention that games lore not have anything close to Argonians somehow close Oblivion gate. If they even have any, cos there is no mention of any(we have mention about them in many places but nothing about Argonia) and srly, why bother to spend energy and forces to raid Argonia compare to other more populated and strategically important parts of Tamriel

And nothing about Argonia rebellion taking over Morrowind lands and forcing almost all dunmer leave to Soltsheim and other parts of Tamriel(and Argonians by game lore not conquer anything in Morrowind and borders was not changed) and they not have raiding bands in "destroyed" Vvardenfel(Even destroyed Balmora was rebuild by Redoran, decades, way before Umbriel book timeline).

And yeah we have actual mention from Dunmer and Nords about contact with Argonia borders or trade stuff like shipments in Skyrim from south Argonia ports.

raw grail
# spiral aspen Its far far more Those things do not exist in Skyrim+Dragonborn DLC lore entire...
  1. if i'm not mistaken, we have quite a few Emperors who are only mentioned once and then never again, including Septim Emperors. why is Attrebus in particular an issue?
  2. i've already given my two cents on Sathil
  3. the Ingenium is never mentioned by name, but Red Year, its timing, and its aftermath are all directly connected to the Ingenium. this would be like pointing the Oblivion Crisis lack of the Great Welkynd Stone, the need for the Blood of the Divines and of the Daedra, etc. yeah, some details aren't mentioned again, but the event happened, and we get additional details on that event in the media in which the event itself occurs
  4. Umbriel is referenced! check out the Sleeping Tree in Skyrim. in fact, the stories Ysolda tells us about the Sleeping Tree reference both Umbriel and Red Year
    What can you tell me about the Sleeping Tree?
    "How the tree came to grow there is a bit of a mystery... Some say that when Vvardenfell erupted, a piece was blown to the middle of Skyrim and from the crater grew the tree. I've also heard that it was a spore that fell from an island floating in the sky, but that just sounds like nonsense. All I know is that the sap makes you feel as healthy as a cave troll, but slow as a drunk horker. And that and it fetches good coin."
    this page shows a few different references to the novels from the games. they're scant on details, but should we really be expecting commoners from more than a century later than the events of the books to be giving us in-depth details on those events? i live in a post-internet era and i couldn't tell you a whole lot about specific events from 100 years ago, and have personally experienced disbelief in stories about some of those events (such as Ysolda's disbelief about Umbriel), and those stories are half as fantastical as this stuff
  5. what? the Accession War is referenced pretty frequently, and only started cuz of the An-Xileel, wdym. the fall of the Shadowscales is also mentioned directly by Veezara. the "Argonian King" is also a contentious topic in general that we've had consistently inconsistent information on. you should check out Brand-Shei if you haven't!
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much appreciated that i'm now able to copy my message if the bot catches a blacklisted word. ty to whoever is responsible for that change

raw grail
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"Many of the Argonians say they have been called back to Black Marsh. They disappear into the swamps and are never seen again."

"I hear the Legions have been recalled from Fort Swampmoth in Black Marsh, and many of the Argonian slaves have returned to their tribes."

"Black Marsh has become more dangerous than ever. Many settlers have been lost, and most non-Argonians have left in fear."

raw grail
# spiral aspen Not to mention that games lore not have anything close to Argonians somehow clos...

And nothing about Argonia rebellion taking over Morrowind lands and forcing almost all dunmer leave to Soltsheim and other parts of Tamriel(and Argonians by game lore not conquer anything in Morrowind and borders was not changed) and they not have raiding bands in "destroyed" Vvardenfel(Even destroyed Balmora was rebuild by Redoran, decades, way before Umbriel book timeline).

Is this the end of all things? Are we to die by the cruel barbed blades of the Argonian invasion force? After surviving the Red Year, struggling to dig from the ash and the rubble, and burying the thousands that died, is this to be our epitaph? The irony of our demise glows brighter than Masser on the summer solstice. We brought this upon ourselves; the Argonians simply answering a rallying cry incited by a millennia of suffrage [sic] imposed by my kind. And so here I sit, in the crumbling basement of our family home while a thousand thousand [sic] booted feet echo above me and the screams of the dying find their way to my ears. So falls House Telvanni.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lymdrenn_Tenvanni's_Journal
These women have supposedly opened the eyes of those who they claim were "blinded by the Tribunal," and directly connect the eruption of the Red Mountain and the Argonian invasion to the anger of the three daedra.
- The Reclamations
How did your mother die?
"We lived in a settlement perhaps a league from the border of Black Marsh, the homeland of the Argonians. Even though the Argonian Invasion ended a long time ago, there are still a few scale-skin clans that live within our borders. To put it simply, they attacked our settlement and slaughtered almost everyone. It was horrible."
- Dreyla Alor

raw grail
# raw grail > "Many of the Argonians say they have been called back to Black Marsh. They dis...

just to hammer in these as references to the Argonian defense

On the Oblivion rumors of Argonians being called back to Black Marsh (2008-09-07)

It refers to the Hist's response to the Crisis, and is one of Kurt's coolest ideas of the last year or so.

I added the "Giant Feathered Flu Tyrants" bit, which, like of course... but you'll see. Daedra -2, Argonians +278. [🐑] off, Dagon, don't ever mess with the Trees.

[...]
So the Red Year was originally supposed to be much more cataclysmic and affect more than just Morrowind? Kind of like the "Sun's Death" eruption from the First Era?

Yep, the Oblivion Crisis (of which Red Year was a result) was going to vastly change the literal and political landscapes by TESV. We- by which I mean me and Kurt- wanted to give Dagon's invasion real teeth across the whole of Tamriel. I don't think the term "Oblivion Crisis" appeared until after TESIV? In any case, it's a nod to DC's various status quo shattering events.

That's where the stuff like the Argonians saying aw [🏒] no and invading Oblivion instead with heavy feathered flu-tyrants came from. Because that's just straight awesome. And Morrowind goes boom because I am a vain child who doesn't like to share his toys. [...]
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Michael_Kirkbride's_Posts

sharp lantern
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Don't tell me the ''Novels aren't canon'' topic is reopened... once was enough.

raw grail
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lowkey they're referenced more than the other games are

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which makes sense considering they're covering the time between the games and so therefore are Skyrim's historical foundation in the 4th era

sharp lantern
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Let's just conveniently ignore the coming of the Medes, Thalmor, Aldmeri Dominion, Penitus Oculatus, independence of Morrowind and Black Marsh, and the Argonian Invasion, all being mentioned in the Novels before the games because lol why not.

raw grail
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i do wish we got more of the cool stuff from the novels mentioned more explicitly but at some point it'd be weird that people in skyrim have all this knowledge of places across the continent

raw grail
sharp lantern
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Did you know that Skyrim's offer of Solstheim to Morrowind also came from the Novels?

raw grail
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whaaa

sharp lantern
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Yea

raw grail
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actually now that you mention it, i knew it was said in the novels, but hadn't successfully internalized that as meaning "the novels first established it"

sharp lantern
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Attrebus and Sul speak of it while hunting for the Umbra sword in Morrowind.

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The Novels predate Skyrim both in setting and in publication, so yea

raw grail
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so cool

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i like one of mk's other quotes on the novels, that i didn't share here, especially about the novels not being a "chekov's gun" situation

sharp lantern
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Yeah, it's definitely an interesting take to say the Novels aren't canon. Especially since Pete Hines (back when he still worked for Bethesda) explicitly stated that they are.

raw grail
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Discussing the Elder Scrolls novels by Greg Keyes(2010-07-10)

If one expects Chekhov, just, you know, go home. He's of a spirit akin to Carver, a previous master I once studied for years but whose art is self-contained. 'Collaborative' is the key word of comparison here. Tamriel itself would rebel against anything otherwise.

How can one read Lady Nerevar's lore-bit bullets regarding The Infernal City and not appreciate how much homework Mr. Keyes has done?

This is not a defensive posture, which would be better exercised as the Silent Stroke. Instead, it's a call for forum, and all the right-headed polylogues that should spring from such.

You guys are the rearguard of the Convention. Talk it through. What implications can be culled from this narrative, especially from a lore-clicked lens? As a humble forum member, I would like to hear that discussion.

Well Judging by Lady N's excellent Notes.

Keyes does Canonise many Forum concepts which is a good thing.

However the bad things are numerous.

  1. The Dunmer get totally slaughtered by the book.

MK: Kill your babies. Which part of "None Shall Survive" did you forget?

  1. The Argonians get Marty\Mary Stued to the point it go's into self parody

MLK: Perhaps you're speaking of the language issues, which I can't honestly address. But the Argonian undiluted victory over Dagon is self-parody? Wut.

  1. Anything Keyes actually invented on his own ,even names, feels really Generic.

MK: Too general a generalization to answer proficiently.

  1. The new Empire is the death of what would have been a great storyline for a Novel or as a setting for a spin-off.

MK: Another opinionated digression rather than a fruitful road of inferencial discourse. In lieu of such a told and/or played storyline, what does its absence indicate for future franchise installments?

5.The Argonian language is the right side letter Keys and another Stuism of the Argonians.

See 2, though I think I can viably say the Stuism disparagement is particulary against your own (or your clan's) wishes and not necessarily "bad". Again, an opinion that takes its ball and goes home rather than a starting point of New Team, which this thread is primarily concerned with.

...the Dunmer are given the idiot ball and then pounded into a non-entity because at some point in the past the Dunmer enslaved Argonians which ticks off Keyes personally.

I hate to break it to you, kid, but I'm the one that crushed the Dunmer back into the scathing bay.
- Michael Kirkbride Post

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jeeeez that's long

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i underlined the one sentence i was trying to emphasize here, but the whole thing is somewhat relevant to the discussion so KS_AniShrug

spiral aspen
# raw grail 1) if i'm not mistaken, we have quite a few Emperors who are only mentioned once...

1)You mistaken cos we do have of all Reman dynasty rulers from Reman 1 to prince Juliek+Akaviri Potentates. We have all 21 Septim Dynasty rulers from Tiber Septim(majority was from Agnorith Septim daughter blood) to Martin and Potentate Ocato. Only Alessia Empire rulers list are not complete cos of destructions of many Alessia era stuff. And info about some temporal warlords in times between Empires. Mede dynasty is not that.

2)Cos they not existed in games lore and they simply could not exist in any way there and build what they did there. Its impossible and we have words and written sources what comfirm that no Indoril-Satil stuff existed there in any way. If they was we would have info about them from Raven Rock or Skaal or Neloth.

3)Cos it not existed. What was actually happened was described by actual people who lived in that timeline. We have plenty of stuff from dunmer, from imperials and etc.

4)Its not a reference and noone mention Umbriel events existence. From Isolde we have this and i would point important part from Ysolde...

"How the tree came to grow there is a bit of a mystery... Some say that when Vvardenfell erupted, a piece was blown to the middle of Skyrim and from the crater grew the tree. I've also heard that it was a spore that fell from an island floating in the sky, but that just sounds like nonsense. All I know is that the sap makes you feel as healthy as a cave troll, but slow as a drunk horker. And that and it fetches good coin."

So it is claimed as a nonsense story with zero basis and zero connection to Umbriel. Noone talk or wrote about apocalypse event. Not to mention that Battlespire existed too so we could try to push that seed was from there. Yeah it is not work like this.

5)ZERO mention of An-Xileel. Veezara is young Argonian from Shadowcales who RECENTLY not exist as Brotherhood have problems too. No relation to An-Xileel. Brand Shei not talk about any and as he claim he was somehow draged and raised there since infant

spiral aspen
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Its contradict with books description

sharp lantern
spiral aspen
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Its not look like a discussion when we have actual info from game and a lot of contradictions to those 2 books what are totally ignored.

raw grail
# spiral aspen 1)You mistaken cos we do have of all Reman dynasty rulers from Reman 1 to prince...
  1. i think you misunderstood me. i didn't say we have no record of some of the Emperors, i'm saying we have Emperors who are mentioned once and then never again. Attrebus is not a person we have no record of, otherwise we would not be talking about him, because he would not exist as far as we're aware. he is a person we have one record of - the novels - which is not a unique position. if we expand this to include the Imperial Family, that number grows even more, but that's kind of besides the point
  2. this is played out
  3. when does anyone in Skyrim tell us what happened, described by actual people who lived in that timeline? could you give me some quotes?
  4. what else is the "floating island" if not Umbriel? would you believe a story about an island floating in the sky some 150 years ago? Battlespire isn't an island floating in Nirn's sky, what are you talking about?
  5. i feel like you're expecting specific name drops of things which people in Skyrim have little reason to specifically name drop
sharp lantern
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It's similar to the folks who to this day insist the Legion was recalled to Cyrodiil from Morrowind during the Oblivion Crisis because it is said in Dragonborn, even though it contradicts the events of Oblivion

spiral aspen
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There was no Atrebus Mede in game lore. Not a single mention of him anywhere by anyone. Only Titus Mede and Titus Mede 2

sharp lantern
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There is no ''game lore'', there is just tes lore.

raw grail
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i'm not talking about "game lore"-

sharp lantern
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TES as a franchise is more than just games.

raw grail
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yeah. that. TES lore includes everything from the games, the novels, the booklets like the pocket guides, etc

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it's a multimedia franchise. we've got ARGs and roleplays and books of all sizes. games are the backbone but TES doesn't end at the games

sharp lantern
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Also, Black Marsh under the An-Xileel was still a monarchy, so I'm not sure how that is supposed to disprove the Novels...

raw grail
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was it?

sharp lantern
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Yep

raw grail
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i've had such a hard time finding stuff about Black Marsh's monarchy. some Argonians almost suggest it doesn't exist T~T

sharp lantern
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Tbh, I think the ''king'' is mostly a figurehead.

raw grail
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ESO only made it more confusing despite the fact we went to Black Marsh multiple times

sharp lantern
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Black Marsh is incredibly tribal, especially the interior, so this ''king'' probably either just rules the largest tribe, is the figurehead of the province, or is the one with the most authority over the other tribes.

raw grail
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that's kind of the conclusion i'd come to, too

sharp lantern
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Anyway, it's mentioned in Part 3, Chapter 2 of The Infernal City that Black Marsh is a kingdom.

raw grail
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i seeee. i will have to look out for it when i get the books

sharp lantern
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It could be that the An-Xileel, similar to the Thalmor, overthrew the rightful King and installed a puppet, but not much to confirm or deny that.

spiral aspen
# sharp lantern There is no ''game lore'', there is just tes lore.

If we would be honest there is like a 3.5.

1)single player games lore.

2)ESO lore from Firror and etc Zenimax Online team(before they done MMO games for EA, like Warhammer FB online game what have a lot of ridicolous retcons of Warhammer FB lore).

3)TES Castles mobile game and Tes Legends card game lore.

sharp lantern
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Which is all TES lore.

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Whether it comes from the games or not, is irrelevant to its status as TES lore.

spiral aspen
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Alternative universes

sharp lantern
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It's the same universe.

spiral aspen
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If stuff from one contradict, retcon or create time anomalies compared to another which made stuff from one impossible and made some events impossible or not made any sense so it is not the same universe.

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Like Force Unleashed games in Star Wars

sharp lantern
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By your rationale, Arena isn't canon.

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TESlore is loaded with contradictions and retcons.

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Is Morrowind not canon because it describes Cyrodiil as jungle? Or is Oblivion not canon because it depicts Cyrodiil as a temperate landscape?

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Is Skyrim not canon because it doesn't include a ton of villages seen in Arena?

spiral aspen
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Not the same stuff

sharp lantern
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Yes it is.

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You literally argued House Sathil isn't canon because you can't find remnants of it 💀

spiral aspen
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Its like with Sutch

spiral aspen
sharp lantern
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Uh-huh, and that Dwemer ruin popping up out of the sea, that sure is possible, right?

spiral aspen
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Yes

sharp lantern
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I guess Bloodmoon isn't canon anymore.

spiral aspen
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Canon

sharp lantern
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Clearly not, because it doesn't include a Dwemer ruin that absolutely exists nor a Nord ruin that likewise definitely exists.

spiral aspen
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They was burried from vulcanic eruptions

sharp lantern
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No they weren't.

spiral aspen
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Same way inner sea of Morrowind was not that ancient

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It was created by one of eruptions

sharp lantern
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Prove it.

spiral aspen
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Easy

sharp lantern
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Topal the Pilot literally found the Inner Sea during his exploration of Tamriel - and that predates Aldmeri colonization of the continent.

spiral aspen
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Not to mention that we see some ruins underwater in TES:Morrowind.

We have books about it like...

Ruins of Kemel-Ze
36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 36

...

As we can understand from Oblivion book Father of Niben that mentioned Necrom and etc part of eastern Morrowind that Morrowind Inner Sea mentioned by Topal The Pilot was eastern part of modern version of Inner Sea with Telvanni Towers what was ancient aldmer ones.

"During the Middle Merethic Era, Aldmeri explorers mapped the coasts of Vvardenfel , building the First Era High Elven wizard towers at Ald Redaynia, Bal Fell, Tel Aruhn, and Tel Mora in Morrowind"

It was mentioned in same book that modern maps do differ from Topal time.

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Same way Winterhall now ruins except College cos of Vulcanic activity

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Something rised and something was burried in thousands years

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Red Mountain was the highest mountain in Tamriel before eruptions made it smaller

sharp lantern
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And again, that still doesn't explain the ''magical'' appearance of a Nord ruin which never existed beforehand.

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And no, Topal very much did find the inner sea, dude literally mapped it.

spiral aspen
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"During the Middle Merethic Era, Aldmeri explorers mapped the coasts of Vvardenfel , building the First Era High Elven wizard towers at Ald Redaynia, Bal Fell, Tel Aruhn, and Tel Mora in Morrowind"

sharp lantern
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Cool story, and?

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Topal is the first Aldmeri explorer, and he mapped the Inner Sea.

spiral aspen
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This Inner Sea was east part of modern one with Telvanni towers. He was there only and in east part of Morrowind where Necrom was mentioned.

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Replay or play Morrowind and go to Mudan Grotto or Shrine of Boethia.

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You find sunken Dwemer city and Chimer ruins

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There is other burried places cos of vulcanis stuff

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And yeah in Bloodmoon we see Hircine temple, elven made temple hiden in ices. We know that elves lived there from Nord sources and falmer was there with Snow Prince

sharp lantern
sharp lantern
spiral aspen
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Mudan Grotto or Shrine of Boethia or Ruins of Kemel Ze

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Its enought proof, not to mention 2 books what i listed above, 3 technically.

sharp lantern
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Literally neither of those are on Solstheim - aka, irrelevant.

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Idk why you're being so insistant that the Novels must be wrong, when you're jumping through more hoops than in a circus to justify other non-existing locations.

spiral aspen
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Those locations existed was explained and not contradict with previous games

sharp lantern
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No they weren't 💀

spiral aspen
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Satil stuff as Sul Machine and etc does not existed anywhere

sharp lantern
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No explanation was given for either the Dwemer ruins we find (plural) or the Nord one along the coast.

spiral aspen
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They was raised by vulcanic activities, some was literally digged, some was constructed by Miraak followers

sharp lantern
sharp lantern
spiral aspen
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We have literal quest related to digging ruins, we see ash cover many places and read about it. We see melt of ice and etc

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And we see many previously burried stuff by vulcanic activity

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Like Mudan Grotto or Boethia shrine. We see Winterhall for gods sake

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We know about destruction of stuff and when it happened

sharp lantern
balmy salmon
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I feel that the assertion of a major piece of lore being non canon requires a monumental burden of proof. As it is there's waaaaay too much stuff from the novels referenced in TES V, even if all accounts don't perfectly add up (which is normal in TES) or if a settlement or two doesn't get included in the greatly compressed version of the world in the games.

spiral aspen
sharp lantern
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''until the invaders gave up''

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Aka, past tense.

spiral aspen
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It happened thousands years before TES Morrowind. We have explanation why Nchardak was not seen

sharp lantern
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No we don't.

spiral aspen
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We see similar sunken cities like in Mudan Grotto

sharp lantern
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Stop with this irrelevant grotto.

spiral aspen
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Boethia Shrine and dwemer city underwater is not irrelevant

sharp lantern
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The Nords weren't trying to take the city during Bloodmoon, as at the time Solstheim was barely inhabited. So how come this Dwemer ruin is now back above the water?

spiral aspen
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???

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City was burried thousands years before Bloodmoon events

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Thousands years ago Nords do lived in Soltsheim as elves before them too

sharp lantern
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And how come it is up now and not back during Bloodmoon?

spiral aspen
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Same way why Winterhall sunk and dwemer city in Mudan Grotto and Boethia shrine

sharp lantern
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Prove it.

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You refuse to accept any explanation that isn't ''game lore'' for why we don't find traces of House Sathil, yet that's exactly what you're doing here.

spiral aspen
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We have explanation in game

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We have similar sunken ruins before Skyrim too

sharp lantern
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No we don't. Nowhere in the game is any explanation given. You are using a totally different location and then try to use it as evidence for this one. It doesn't work like that.

spiral aspen
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Those are close locations to place what we mention

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I could point Red Year books what mention south Morrowind stuff what was caused by vulcanic activity

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We have info about stuff what did happen in Tamriel history

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We have actual words from neloth too and etc

sharp lantern
glacial scarab
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If I recall the Dwemer ruins in Dragonborn have some attempt of reasoning. One was in ice, another was buried and the last one sunk itself.

Though why one was buried only asks just how long was it there?

spiral aspen
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Climate changed in Skyrim and Morrowind and Soltsheim. Landscape too cos of vulcanic activities

spiral aspen
# sharp lantern No they aren't. They aren't even on Solstheim.

Yasammidan ruins is closer. Not totally sunken, but still. Point the same. Vulcanic activities changed(and lorewise it does happen many times) landscape in 200 years and many stuff was buried before Red Year in 4 era.

Some stuff what was hidden for THOUSANDS years was rised. Some was digged. Some stuff was destroyed or burried or sunken.

sharp lantern
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K

spiral aspen
# sharp lantern So explain to me why Baar Dau didn't come crashing down until 4E 5, when Vivec w...

Vivec told this
"Without the power of the Heart, our divine powers diminish. Our days as gods are numbered. I have told my priests that I shall withdraw from the world, and that the Temple should be prepared for a change. We may be honored no longer as gods, but as saints and heroes, and the Temple will return to the faith of our forefathers -- the worship of our ancestors and the three good daedra, Azura, Mephala, and Boethiah. The missions and traditions of the Temple must continue... but without its Living Gods."

"We have lost our divine powers, but not altogether. Some token of the people's faith remains, and we shall dedicate it to rebuilding the Temple. Now that Dagoth Ur is gone, we can turn our energies to the more humble needs of the people. It is good, honest work, and I believe there is redemption in it."

So he was prepared.

And we have plenty of stuff in Tamriel what existed long or still exist after magic user died. He not need to support barrier of ghostfence before that and consider that Vivec not have recharged his energies for long time after Dagoth take full control of Heart so he spend a lot of energies to hold it, with ghostfence gone as Dagoth corrupting magic powers and hypnosis he could spend his last powers to hold it longer.

There was no known mass sacrifices to Clavicus Vile to support Tribunal Temple prison and Tribunal priests or else would not allow this as others. No dunmer who lived in Vivec and etc tell or write anything about it too.

sharp lantern
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The Novels are canon. This isn't a discussion. Your headcanon or fanfic that is isn't, is ultimately not relevant when discussing lore.

spiral aspen
# sharp lantern The Novels are canon. This isn't a discussion. Your headcanon or fanfic that is ...

Shack: These will be books that stand alone, but use the Elder Scrolls world as their setting?
Pete Hines: No, actually part of our thing is, if you're going to write it, then it needs to fit into the Elder Scrolls lore and canon.
Shack: So future games will take this fiction into account?
Pete Hines: It's hard to say. Hard to say, because we haven't gotten to future games yet. Certainly the reason that these two key guys--well, three: Bruce [Nesmith], Kurt and Todd are all involved in it--is to make sure that [Keyes] doesn't write anything that messes with the lore. "That race would never do that," or "those guys would never work together"--everything has to fit. But beyond that, we are doing it as if it's part of Elder Scrolls lore and canon.

...

And later we have future game released, Skyrim and Dragonborn DLC where almost nothing what Greg wroted become canon. Greg not invented Thalmor rise again, as Mede dynasty and etc. Bethesda in the end wrote what they wanted and retcon Keyze books. Greg know almost nothing about TES universe when he started to wrote what he wrote.

sharp lantern
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"Yes, we consider the Elder Scrolls novels canon to TES lore."
-Pete Hines

Case closed.

spiral aspen
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It was before that

sharp lantern
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Nope.

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This was literally january 3rd, 2011

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And future installments did take it into account. You saying "oh it didn't create the Medes, Thalmor, etc." is just straight-up false, because the Novels are the first piece of media about the Fourth Era.

spiral aspen
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I said Greg not invent them, He was given some info about 4 era

sharp lantern
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Bethesda has not retconned the Novels at all.

spiral aspen
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They did and they did told that "It's hard to say. Hard to say, because we haven't gotten to future games yet."

sharp lantern
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No they did not.

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Learn what a retcon is.

spiral aspen
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Bethesda spent time making sure he [Keyes] understoon its fiction. "We gave him access to our internal lore website, so he had access to unpublished, secret lore," Kuhlmann explains. "He also played through Oblivion several times to get the actual exprience of how we've presented Tamriel in the game as opposed to written lore."

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Shack: With respect to the two Elder Scrolls novels by Greg Keyes, is Bethesda looking to increasingly leverage its franchises in this sort of way?

Pete Hines: In so much as we can find stuff that feels right for whatever particular brand or series we're talking about, in terms of what it is and how it's executed and stuff, yeah, I think so.

This was something that was born out of a conversation I had with folks that work on our strategy guide. They're also owned by the same parent company, and they eventually put me in touch with some of their book folks. And I talked with them a bit, and talked to a few of our guys on the dev team about it.

It was an initiative that really [bethesda senior designer] Kurt Kuhlmann and I sort of ganged up and hounded [Elder Scrolls director] Todd Howard like, "We really need to do this, you need to let us do this." And Todd finally sort of came around. It's not that he didn't want to do it. He just worries about distractions to his team, and getting away from the focus.

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Todd not wanted and do not care about those books content. This is why stuff from books except some info about 4 era what they give to Greg does not appear in games lore and why game lore contradict with it.

Greg know almost nothing about TES universe, not develop Skyrim and content from his 2 books was not used in few years later when Skyrim concepts was finalized and created. In first drafts we would have Uriel from Akavir on dragons but Todd and etc decide to not use it and we have alduin return

sharp lantern
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Are you aware that the entire franchise is fiction? Like, none of it is real.💀

sharp lantern
spiral aspen
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Its not his concepts. he officially was given info about 4 era as BASIS to write his books. And stuff what was in his books not become canon when Bethesda finished Skyrim creation.

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His book was based on Elder Scrolls universe

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Shack: So future games will take this fiction into account?
Pete Hines: It's hard to say. Hard to say, because we haven't gotten to future games yet.

spiral aspen
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Todd with his team not adopted Greg stuff from his books. They only take their own lore parts what they give to Greg about 4 era.

This is why there is nothing exist in Skyrim lore about Umbriel and Sul machine in 4 era events despite we have many stuff mentioned. Including stuff from far lands of Summerseth and Hammerfel and Elsweir and Valenwood and Morrowind and Highrock.

This is why there is only Titus Mede and Titus Mede 2. No Atrebus Mede.

Nothing from An-Xileel in Argonia.

Soltsheim was never place of House Satil and was in 4e5 literally annexed by House Redoran councilwoman Brava Morayn from Maar Gan where we see her in Tes: Morrowind quests. Skyrim King when Septim Empire was no more did "gift" Soltsheim to House Redoran who control it for decade before this gift and Skyrim in that time have no real way to claim it. Later Titus Mede have Skyrim as part of his new Mede Empire.

Great Houses especially House Dres and Indoril(no Satil) exist and not loose anything, Morrowind not loose anything and Argonian rebellion ended on south Morrowind lands(mostly Hlaalu ones who loose everything and was forced to hide or run away) and House Redoran armies beat Argonians who run into Argonia and isolated their contacts.

Rise of Dominion+Thalmor and decline of Septim Empire was predictable since end of 2 uses of Numidium magic what delay Septim Empire collapse. Empire almost collapsed after assasination of Empress Catharia and cos of Jagarn Tharn actions. Empire have huge problems before him, not to mention after Uriel 7 childrens death.

sharp lantern
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Nice headcanon dude.

empty olive
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I heard that each of all the Races in Elder Scrolls have Sub races in them .... Is that true?

glacial scarab
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What are we defining as "sub race"?

empty olive
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I took screenshots... Of what I'm talking about.. can I show them on here ?

proven moss
spiral aspen
# empty olive I heard that each of all the Races in Elder Scrolls have Sub races in them .... ...

Sub races?

Like Mer

Aldmer=Maormer, Altmer, Falmer, Bosmer, Dwemer, Chimer/Dunmer, Ayleyd, "Lefthanded" mer from Yokuda. Orsimer.

Man-Nedes. Atmorans-Skyrim Nords-Cyrodil Nords(Imperials-Nibenay, Colovians, Kothringi?), Yokudans/Redguards.

Manmer~~(descendants of lonely male Direnni Altmers and Nedes maids-servants lived in Highrock)~~-Bretons.

Argonians with their breeds depending on Hist tree sap drinking.

Khajit with their breeds depending on moon cycles.

Or else?

balmy salmon
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For example Breton could choose between "Systres" or "High Rock", and Imperials got "Nibenese" and "Colovian".

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It introduced some interesting tidbits of lore, like confirming that Bretons still live on Systres, and that part of Valenwood is still called Reaper's March.

final osprey
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Godhead says start here.

pastel sorrel
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<@&784552314911588403> bot

signal raptor
spiral aspen
# balmy salmon It introduced some interesting tidbits of lore, like confirming that Bretons sti...

I would rather wait for TES6 to comfirm this. Point is that it is copypaste from ESO lore what they put in remaster and Bethesda team not involved in that.

And this thing is only in player character creation where it is the only thing about it at all. There was nothing in single player game lore about Systers islands except their name and location based on maps. Before ESO there was zero lore about Systers except their location based on maps. We not know if they are actually populated by Bretons or Redguards or they may be not populated at all.

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East Empire company map not show them at all in Skyrim and there is no trade there despite there was trade with Highrock and Hammerfel and Strosmkai. Yeah they does not show Soltsheim(East Empire company map not show Imperial city too) as old Tamriel maps but Soltsheim compared to Systers was showed in maps in Tiber Septim times.

balmy salmon
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There's a good chance TES 6 won't confirm or deny any of that stuff simply because each game focuses on one province. Even so, I'd consider it to be canon, for lack of a more suitable term, until conclusively and unambiguously proven otherwise.

ripe silo
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WOW! mrbeast? I will do this immediately!

waxen burrow
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This is what happens to some pirates when they try to raid 🤣

glacial scarab
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More heretical posts

pastel sorrel
pastel sorrel
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Trying to dismiss this as "copypaste from ESO lore" as if ESO isn't explicitly canon as stated by multiple devs from both ZOS and BGS drags this into bad faith. It's TES canon, the backgrounds stuff in OBR is actually basically what Bethesda was originally going to do for TES4 but ended up not really getting around to until Starfield

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As of TES4's time, as of OBR, the Systres are still Breton, it's just a matter of whether or not they're actually part of High Rock or Hammerfell or independent or what at that time.

glacial scarab
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And even with the Systres the only thing we knew was that it was under the Imperial Province of Hammerfell. Which only tells us of possible Governors then actual Hammerfell control. The only lore it had was that it was under the Imperial Administration of Hammerfell.

spiral aspen
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@pastel sorrel@glacial scarab Actually Systers Islands have ZERO lore about them in single player games lore. Not have any mention of them too.

On Tamriel map they was showed in TES Redguard, map which not actually exist in game(it was on paper manual with disc as i remember) and what was created by Hugh Riley who work on TES games in 1997-1999.

(Lead artist/lead animator on Morrowind preproduction and Senior Artist on Redguard. Responsibilities on Redguard included 3D character modeling and rigging, texturing, 2D and 3D animation, UI artwork and design. As Lead Animator/joint Lead Artist on Morrowind preproduction, designed and implemented the character animation system and was responsible for producing and supervising character modeling, texturing and animation. Created and rendered the preproduction demo.)

But there is zero info about them, nothing on who control(in old map of TES Morrowind codex they was colored as Hammerfel ones as Strosmkai) them and does they have any people who live there or they are barren wastelands.

And those islands was named only in TES Redguard map of timeline of Tiber Septim rule.

BUT even those names not exist in any written sources of TES Redguard or have any mention by anyone in all single player games lore.

After Tes Redguard map there is ZERO names of those islands in any single player game Tamriel maps. Only Strosmkai.

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So yeah person who create those islands by putting them on map and giving them names not-never created any lore about them in 1997-1999. And noone did.

And there was many stuff what existed in pre production but not exist or was rewritten in final versions of games.

pastel sorrel
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And this is relevant to its canonicity how?

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Literally none of this changes the fact that it's established now

spiral aspen
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Only in ESO universe and timeline

pastel sorrel
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ESO is not a separate universe, the devs themselves have stated that, I will not entertain that bad-faith discussion.

spiral aspen
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Todd Howard never did.

pastel sorrel
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Yes he did actually

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As did multiple other devs. I'm not doing your legwork for your, either actually prove it's non-canon with dev statements or move on to a salient discussion point.

glacial scarab
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If we were ever to make a game not canon I would nuke the hell out of Oblivion.

spiral aspen
#

There never was any Todd Howard statement about ESO being canon as single player games created by him and his team.

He did stated that Fallout Bos and Texas(some game for xbox) was not canon despite they buy all rights to Fallout franshise

And he did in 2013 Joystiq at PAX stated that he and his team want TES being single player game.

“I like this kind of game better. You know, it’s what most of us are into. I’m not really an MMO guy. I respect them, I look at them, but I don’t play them. It feels more real to me when I’m the hero and it’s crafted for that. A community aspect to it, I recognize a lot of people would want that in a game like this, but it changes the flavor for me."

pastel sorrel
#

The latter I'm aware of and is irrelevant to the ESO discussion, the former is outright incorrect and I've already said to prove your claim it's non-canon, I'm not here to disprove your unproven assertion.

#

Or better yet, honestly, I'm just moving on. This is not a useful discussion and it's late as hell.

spiral aspen
#

You cant write stuff what never happened. Todd Howard never stated that.

We have stuff from ESO devs(some of them not work in studio anymore) that Todd not allow them to do in their game some dwemer and akavir related content. And as we can understand ESO devs with all their content are locked in time limbo of 2E 582 cos of Todd Howard twisted joke.

He did stated that he with his team not wanted MMO TES game

sharp lantern
#

Wow, so now the Novels, Legends and ESO aren't canon. Get ready, next on that list are Shadowkey, Stormhold, Dawnstar, Redguard, Battlespire, Blades and Castles...

#

./s

spiral aspen
#

Castles? Srly. Its like EA Star Wars mobile game with everyone fight everyone despite someone who fight with some characters died thousands years ago and someone not even born yet

Same as Fallout Shelter, Fallout tactics and Fallout BOS are "canon" to single player Fallout games. Redguard, Battlespire are canon. From Shadowkey only Azra and his staffs existence in Tamriel history is comfirmed by Neloth in Skyrim-Dragonborn DLC.

spiral aspen
#

And i assume that mobile game The Elder Scrolls Travels: Oblivion are "canon" too by same logic as mobile games above, so we can throw single player TES4 Oblivion away by same logic cos mobile Oblivion game does contradict with single player one in many stuff.

#

Thanks to daedric gods that Oblivion PSP game was not released

glacial scarab
#

Why though?

It would've covered High Rock during the Oblivion Crisis

agile forge
#

Honest question and I would love to have an accurate answer to this.

How big is the world of Nirn? How tall is the Throat Of The World? How big is Skyrim itself in the lore? How large whiterun lore wise?

A man named liontowers_3d has made lore accurate Skyrim videos in terms of the scaling but I am curious as to how accurate it really is.

glacial scarab
#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f8FhQBWwVg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cis9YKL8E-Y

YouTube
Ganshirt Art
I fixed Solitude by painting it

I guess this is a genre of video now. Prints here if you want em:
https://www.etsy.com/shop/GanshirtIllustration?ref=shop-header-name&listing_id=4456774808&from_page=listing

I tried to put the hawk in but it was so small it just looked like a hair on the screen so we're just gonna have to imagine.

▶ Play video
YouTube
Ganshirt Art
I fixed Whiterun by painting it

Finally brought this one into horizontal for y'all. Prints here if you want em:
https://www.etsy.com/shop/GanshirtIllustration?ref=shop-header-name&listing_id=4456774808&from_page=listing

Let me know what games/cities/things/stuff you wanna see me do next.

▶ Play video
agile forge
spiral aspen
agile forge
pastel sorrel
#

Todd's said it's still authoritative

agile forge
sharp lantern
#

Imo Arena and Daggerfall are best for scale because their lower graphical quality allowed for a far larger map.

low sapphire
#

I ask, because I know the Fallout equivalent is entirely on-line

spiral aspen
spiral aspen
# pastel sorrel Todd's said it's still authoritative

We have those...

TES Arena time

"~3000-4000 kilometers from east to west, and ~2000-3000 kilometers from north to south."

Or

"Confront fearsome adversaries as you make your way to the Staff of Chaos... Battle Monsters of the netherworld, using any of 2500 magical items... Travel the world of Arena, from the fertile fields of Summerset Isle... To the frozen mists of Skyrim.** Over 8 million square kilometers to explore!**

TES Daggerfall time

Ted Peterson tell that "Arena took place all over Tamriel, which is an empire and a continent about the size of Canada. Daggerfall takes place in a section of Tamriel about twice the size of Great Britain."

#

So "~3000-4000 kilometers from east to west, and ~2000-3000 kilometers from north to south." is kinda more accurate and was written first.

#

And yeah technically we can always tell that Soltsheim and Summerseth are not included in Tamriel continent size so it would be "Over 8 million square kilometers to explore!." if we combine everything

low sapphire
#

Boy, these early TES games were something else

#

I'm very glad I started with Daggerfall

heady wave
#

kinda sucks that Arena is so authoritative in this regard - I like the map/continent projection and sizing in Daggerfall far better. also means that Daggerfall's map is technically impossible and that Daggerfall city is eternally on the wrong side of High Rock in basically every map lol

gaunt bear
#

I’m just double checking something: is it true that the southern portion of Hammerfell is mostly unexplored?

pastel sorrel
#

I've never heard that and southern Hammerfell's where the brunt of the fighting was in the Great War and their fighting beyond, it was inhabited and now it's recovering from the devastation

#

The Alik'r specifically might be somewhat unmapped but over the literal millennia it'll still've had a bunch of people going through it

glacial scarab
gaunt bear
robust lintel
low sapphire
#

I wonder, what counts as an obscure place in Daggerfall in terms of dwellings or humanoid presence?

sharp lantern
#

Define "obscure."

waxen burrow
low sapphire
# sharp lantern Define "obscure."

Anyplace that is not easily findable except by the most intrepid of players or anyplace in-universe of the game that is considered difficult to reach or any dwelling place that is the size of a hamlet or a small village or a place that is not well populated by any kind of standard measure in or out of universe

low sapphire
#

It also needs to be interesting

unkempt tide
#

Thanks for the ping, dealt with! meowthumbsup

waxen burrow
#

The dark brotherhood is always listening. And always delivers their justice

ocean wraith
#

Here to <@&784552314911588403>

eternal osprey
#

just wondering, can cathay-raht end up looking more lion like in appearance? I'm thinking something aking to battle beast from invincible lol

or are they only limited to the jaguar look

upper field
#

Do sandwiches actually exist in Elder Scrolls or is it too "modern" for the setting?

proven moss
pastel sorrel
#

Sandwiches are hardly too "modern" given the games have stuff from even the 1800's, well after sandwiches were popularized

glacial scarab
woeful gyro
#

The Dwemer had some crazy stuff technology-wise. In Skyrim, that one crazy guy talks identifies a machine as having the purpose of gathering “stardust” and “splitting it”. I’m pretty sure that was a steampunk version of a fission reactor. How did the Dwemer not just take over the world for all time?

slate shoal
#

also some magic

woeful gyro
#

Why not craft guns and just shoot them though

slate shoal
woeful gyro
#

I can tell you haven’t seen raiders of the lost ark

slate shoal
#

that's because we're talking about TES, not Indiana Jones

#

But also two completely different worlds

woeful gyro
#

There’s a scene where a guy takes some elaborate stance with a pair of scimitars, only to get shot

#

Do you see the point I’m trying to make?

slate shoal
#

TES doesn't work like that

#

guns diminish from the cool world design anyway

woeful gyro
#

Seems to be not so different that people don’t die when they are killed (usually anyway)

slate shoal
#

no guns

woeful gyro
#

So in other words, it’s just a creative choice. Could’ve just said so lol

native ether
ocean wraith
#

^

glacial scarab
#

If guns were made in TES you can bet Mages would get them first

slate shoal
#

guns might vaguely exist but magic is just better

woeful gyro
#

And a fireball does not travel nearly as fast as a bullet

#

And bringing the numidium into this makes no sense lol. It’s like saying militaries don’t need soldiers because nuclear bombs exist

#

They were also all yeeted out of existence upon completion of said mechanical god so that point is moot anyway

#

Like I’m not saying I want guns in my elder scrolls my original claim was that the Dwemer had enough technological superiority to conquer Tamriel and beyond, because if they had the ability to make what seems like a fission reactor with steampunk technology, they should be able to make much less complex yet quite deadly things like guns

#

And yeah, sure, guns alone might not have tipped the scales against an army of angry magic users by themselves but the Dwemer had magic too

spiral aspen
# woeful gyro Like I’m not saying I want guns in my elder scrolls my original claim was that t...

Who need to ever create any gun when you can do destruction lightning magic spells what literally faster then any bolt of arrows. Who need to invent gunpowder in Tamriel when magic or alchemical stuff can do much more destruction and not fear to being wet by water.

And yeah we have destruction magic spells what destroy weapons and armors, turn them into rust or etc. Those guns would be turn into nothing faster then have any shot and this shoot would probably be less accurate as with early guns in IRL history.

Even dwemer crossbows(which was mostly used by dwemer robots, not by dwemer soldiers what was minority) despite existing for THOUSANDS years was not that popular except by early Septim Empire era who try to mass produce and used them for some time, but what was the point if some bosmers or etc mer with bows was way more quickly and more accurate and deadly, and arrows could be poisoned or enchanted as bow to made arrows as mini grenades.

And yeah soldiers could be boosted with alchemical potions or scrolls or spells from court mages. Those mages could even cast shields and heal as ingame books told us about previous events what happened in Tamriel history.

IF in IRL humankind have those magic or enchanted stuff noone would bother to invent any guns.

spiral aspen
# woeful gyro The Dwemer had some crazy stuff technology-wise. In Skyrim, that one crazy guy t...

Dwemer enemies-mer have much more combat experienced mages(+daedra based help) and more skilled soldiers to cripple dwemer minority what was not onlu smaller in numbers then their enemies, they was not united and was divided by inner clans conflicts who have wars too. So when Chimer clans become united it was a Dwemer ending already.

In the end dwemer when they loose war made a huge mistake by trying to nuke chimer with Heart magic and it did backfire as demon core experiment and destroy all dwemer(except those like Yagrum who was not in Nirn but in another magic plane), turn all dwemer into dust piles what was brushed by time and robot spiders in ruins of their forts. Some dust still was not touched in some places like we see in TES Morrowind.

Unfortunatelly even Hammerfel ones dwemer clan/s who run away from other dwemer clans of east Tamriel was destroyed too. But thats it.

But after all...we have falmer, dwemer, ayleyd, yokuda mer civilizations destroyed and left with Maormer, Altmer, Dunmer, Bosmer ones.

Orsimer may be destroyed next cos Redguards/Nords/Bretons and etc cripple them too much in thousand years.

But i would bet on Argonians perish sooner. Cos they rely too much on Hist Trees to exist and those sap sources are few and can be destroyed by nature disasters or some mage spells.

balmy salmon
#

That said, the Dwemer absolutely did have some crazy stuff in the works. Numidium is probably the biggest of these- with the heart of the Underking it broke time and destroyed nations- imagine how powerful it would be with the Heart of Lokhan as Kagrenac intended.

spiral aspen
#

Tamriel-Nirn do have powerful mages factions what balance each other and protect world from total apocalypse

#

Its more like a Tamriel cold war for thousands years where major players not unleash their most powerful mages nuclear arsenal and factions forced to do normal wars with lesser magic use compared to ancient times of Skyrim Empire, Akaviri invasions and etc.

Tiber wars, Potema wars and Camoran Usurper in 3 era was the last ones wars where very powerful magic was used. In 4 era after Oblivion Crisis we have nothing serious.

slate shoal
#

essentially, guns are lame and magic is cool

slate shoal
#

snelf lore time
the falmer likely had some trade and social relations with men
• atmoran artifacts had snow elf design influence
• engaged socially for falmer to engage in some of their humor
• falmer taught some men magic (such as azhidal)

glacial scarab
spiral aspen
# glacial scarab TES has always been poor at showing magic tbh. It should have more but TES4 and ...

No, Mede Empire simply does not have any decent mages in legion compare to Septim and Reman Empires. Dominion lands even without Mages Guilds do have far better magic education and do raise childrens to become decent mages or battlemages who are easily recruited into Dominion-Thalmor officer ranks and they did show good stuff in war and before it. Even 1 ordinary(no Ocato or Jagarn level ones) battlemage can fight against entire village of people.

Collapse of Battlespire and Mages Guild in Cyrodil did damage Cyrodil Empire in +150 years. Cyrodil Empire now have only 2 private mage guilds who are teachning mediocre magic and for very rich people who pay to study magic and we have Skyrim College of Winterhall what is smaller and far away place which teach slightly better magic then Cyrodil ones who mostly try to rob places for magic stuff and monopolize magic studies.

Skyrim Court Mages are mercenaries, some are from Winterhall, many are own their own who was hired by rich Skyrim people to serve them.

Skyrim legion under Tulius are drafted from local Skyrim province people. There is almost noone left who can do even basic magic there. Even Titus Mede not have any decent mage with him and his Penitus Oculatus bodyguard-spies
Imperial Legion in Cyrodil are waiting on Skyrim border cos of avalanches and wait until snow melted or roads can be cleared to go into Skyrim and finish Ulfrick Rebellion

#

So it is in lore-in game books/letters and npc talks about events.

glacial scarab
# spiral aspen No, Mede Empire simply does not have any decent mages in legion compare to Septi...

It's impossbile to tell the quality of mages since the games are so poor with magic. Even in TES3 the Legions on Vvarddenfell barely had any mages just like TES5s Legions barely had any mages due to the rushed and cut nature of the civil war (to the point they only appear in Helgen for whichever Legion is stationed in Falkreath).

We also do not know how much of the Legions in Skyrim are made up of local recruits because it never goes into it. Only thing we know is that Tullius has a "bare handful of Legions" and that they're recruiting locally just like the Legions on TES3 did.

spiral aspen
#

Isolated and recently opened Vvardenfel not have much mages cos of Tribunal Temple and Telvanni political influence and we can have Mage Guilds quests what try to convince Redoran and etc to lift Telvanni monopoly or etc

#

Vvardefel was not very populated before ending of 3 era

glacial scarab
#

There's still multiple Legions on Vvardenfell as TES3 goes by a per fort basis given how they talk of the Deathshead Legion and the Hawkmoth Legion. The "Moth" naming thing is a Legion naming thing.

A unit of the Imperial Guard protects the Duke, and the Hawkmoth Legion is also garrisoned within the walls of the castle.

there's a Deathshead Legion garrison in Gnisis, and pilgrims come to see the Mask of Vivec at the Gnisis Temple."

spiral aspen
#

In 3E 414, Vvardenfell Territory, previously a Temple preserve under Imperial protection, was reorganized as an Imperial Provincial District. Vvardenfell had been maintained as a preserve administrated by the Temple since the Treaty of the Armistice, and except for a few Great House settlements sanctioned by the Temple, Vvardenfell was previously uninhabited and undeveloped. But when the centuries-old Temple ban on trade and settlement of Vvardenfell was revoked by King of Morrowind, a flood of Imperial colonists and Great House Dunmer came to Vvardenfell, expanding old settlements and building new ones.

There are five legion garrisons in Vvardenfell District. The three town garrisons -- Moonmoth Legion Fort in Balmora, Buckmoth Legion Fort in Ald'ruhn, and Fort Pelagiad in Pelagiad -- are at full complement. The Hawkmoth Legion garrisoned at Castle Ebonheart is an elite honor guard unit, and also at full complement. The frontier installation, Fort Darius in Gnisis village, is currently the only under-strength garrison on Vvardenfell. Qualified citizens seeking enlistment in the Imperial Legion should apply to the commander of that garrison, General Darius.

#

As we can understand most forces was relocated from mainland Morrowind lands

glacial scarab
#

That's still five full strength Legions in TES3 (Frostmoth Legion on Solstheim). With Hawkmoth having the Imperial Guard with them protecting Duke Dren.

spiral aspen
#

Partially cos of Dagoth forces rise

spiral aspen
#

They have better everything, equipment, economy, mages and etc

glacial scarab
#

Mede Empire has more Legions in Skyrim given the amount Legates they have but TES5 writing is more vague

spiral aspen
#

As we can understand Generals command legions in Mede Empire. NOT Legates.

glacial scarab
#

Actually Legates command 1 legion. Generals command multiple

spiral aspen
#

Yep not as it was IRL

glacial scarab
# spiral aspen They have better everything, equipment, economy, mages and etc

Again it's impossible to tell mage quality because of how bad the games are at showing magic which was the point of TES3 having six Legions have being all non-magic focused despite Legion battlemages being a thing in universe. Nevermind how magic is really generic in most TES games which makes it hard to show anything well (rip Mannimarco. Boss fight so bad people make fanon that he isn't a god.)

spiral aspen
#

They have literal Mage Guilds to support them

glacial scarab
# spiral aspen Yep not as it was IRL

I think it's probably also trying to make sense of a TES3 line for Varus as he's the head of the Legions in Morrowind and yet he has Generals under him (Darius and Varro)

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Great_War

by Legate Justianus Quintius
I myself commanded the Tenth Legion in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil until I was wounded in 175 during the assault on the Imperial City.

The Imperial Legions under General Decianus

One army, with the legions from Hammerfell under General Decianus

The second army, largely of Nord legions under General Jonna

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:General_Tullius (this dialogue isn't on UESP but is his season unending dialogue)

It's what comes of trying to win a war with a bare handful of Legions

"He is the head of the Legions here in Morrowind, and Knight of the Imperial Dragon." - talking about "Varus Vantinius"

They named this fort after the garrison's commandant, General Darius. (Deathshead)

General Larrius Varro is the commandant, and Radd Hard-Heart is the Chapter Steward. (Moonmoth)

glacial scarab
spiral aspen
glacial scarab
slate shoal
slate shoal
slate shoal
spiral aspen
# slate shoal the mages guild and fighters guild avoid serving a specific kingdom to retain th...

In Septim Empire era Kings as Dukes was under Emperror and Elder Council rule, there was united Empire. Mage Guild did answer to Imperial Battle Mages like Ocato who could remove or grand Archmage ranks as he wished. And he did. They all obey to Emperrors and etc

In situation of Forsworns, or Ulfrik or Camoran Usurper or else they would serve to Empire rather then rebels.

But in 4 era in Mede Empire lands Synod and College of Wispers as Winterhall College are not Reman-Septim Empires eras Mage Guild. They are independent organizations who not connected with each other and not under Empire rule as support.

Even more College and Synod teach only rich people, they not care much about actual study of magic, their magic knoledge is worst then Winterhall(which tell us how much magic study degraded in 200 years and why Dominion and Morrowind mages laugh on them.) and more about stealing magic artifact and gain riches-political powers in local areas.

Emperror Mede 2 not work with them all as Faralda told. Both Synod and College of Wispers try to get rid from each other and try to find support from Winterhall and etc to become monopolists of magic services in Mede Empire lands.

spiral aspen
# slate shoal Yeah Ulfric is gonna lose no matter what but it might be a phyrric victory (so t...

Lorewise as we can understand it would be as was in main quest where civil war was temporally stoped by peace treaty until Alduin would be stopped.

In the end depending on timeline jump in TES6 we always could get stuff like

"Oh i heard from khajit merchants that in Skyrim they kill their king and have some small war where both leaders was assasinated by someone. Oh and i heard that they have some dragons who destroy something. Oh and that Emperror and his relatives died there after wedding. Yeah some crazy stories."

After all Tulius is old man who can potentially die from anything as Titus Mede 2. Ulfrik can be killed by anyone cos he have a lot of people who would try to kill him if they not get what they wanted, including from Stormcloaks supporters.

slate shoal
slate shoal
slate shoal
spiral aspen
# slate shoal i wish Bethesda would just confirm things more instead of that nasty murky middl...

We always could get something like

Skyrim Civil war as problems with bandits, vampires and falmers and some dragons burning places ended with mass losses of Nord population(which already faced with losses of many fertile-young nords in Great War) and devastation of Skyrim cities-farms and economy.

Mede Empire win civil war with arrived reinforcements but have many inner problems and failed to hold Skyrim for long. New Emperror after Cyrodil have civil war for Ruby throne decided to abbandon most parts of Skyrim in favor of protecting and investing in devasted Cyrodil lands what have a lot of problems after Great War.

Border lands of Highrock and Hammerfel and Morrowind-House Redoran used this opportunity to take pieces of independent Skyrim cake.

Highrock finally take Solitude lands, Reachman with help from Highrock clans take control over Markath.

Hammerfell may take Falkreath, may exile New Orsinium into Skyrim lands.

Morrowind-House Redoran take Riften and Windheim.

glacial scarab
# spiral aspen In Septim Empire era Kings as Dukes was under Emperror and Elder Council rule, t...

The issue is the Mages Guild really has nothing to do with Mage Quality. Even with the Elder Council being able to replace people it still lead to idiots like Traven nearly destroying the Mages Guild when he was arresting legal mages and possibly even murdering them. Even its creator had an issue with how political their internal issues got "The Guild has become nothing more than an intricate morass of political infighting."

The issue with the Synod and College of Whispers is more TES not really doing more worldbuilding for them as we know too little about them given how little Skyrim does with unplayable factions and how Skyrim goes get rather messed with when Imperial writing is nearly non-existent.

sharp lantern
glacial scarab
#

There's an "Imperial Battle College" but like anything Imperial we only get a line and nothing of value.

slate shoal
#

themes and such

balmy salmon
#

We see Legion battlemages in the intro, I'd guess that the Empire is hoarding them for if/when war with the Dominion resumes.

glacial scarab
slate shoal
#

i want to like imperials but the games neuter them and it annoys me

glacial scarab
slate shoal
spiral aspen
# sharp lantern The Synod and College of Whispers were such talented wizards that they could *le...

Again with retconned Umbriel books about stuff what exist purelly there and nothing in Skyrim ingame books, npc and etc? This stuff never happened in lore of single player games. Never happened, never was written or mentioned by anyone. We would not find any source from Skyrim+dlcs about this magical marvel as about Sul machine and Umbriel flying apocalyptic fortress what devastated Argonia-sotu hMorrowind and east Cyrodil. Nothing about many stuff what exist only in words of Greg Kyze in 2 books who know almost nothing about TES universe and his books contradict with a lot of stuff what canonically happen in places what Greg described in books what turn out in Skyrim+Dragonborn to be not true, they was retconned by Bethesda. They not use this content.

#

Those Synod and College of Wispers mages are garbage compared to Mage Guild of Reman-Septim era and even to modern 4 era Winterhall College

#

"It is no secret that both the Synod and the College of Whispers have recently made inquiries as to the status of our College here in Winterhold. At this time, there is no indication that either group is aware of the other's correspondence. The College of Winterhold has thus far declined requests for direct meetings. This has been at the specific request of Arch-Mage Aren. Aren believed that although the initial communications were innocent enough, they were sent with a particular motive in mind. The Synod's harsh rules and draconian structure are maintained only by suppressing any opposition to their Council's policies. It is entirely possible that they look to our College here in Winterhold in order to find supporters for their organization. Likewise, the College of Whispers has long been driven by its desire to directly oppose the Synod. They focus on research banned by the Synod, such as Conjuration and Necromancy. The College of Whispers hopes to learn that our College also supports these avenues of research. Thus they may claim that the Synod is indeed a political minority in the Empire and should be treated as such. Our actual position and policies are irrelevant.

#

No matter the facts of the response, it will certainly be twisted to suit the whims of either group. Indeed, it has been jokingly suggested that we send the exact same response to both, which each will warp into support for their side. At present, these two groups do little beyond attempting to gain the attention and favor of the Emperor. They appear to have little interest in real study and research for the sake of gaining knowledge. Arch-Mage Aren believes that their conflict poses a significant threat to the autonomy of our College, and I concur. Falling in with either would threaten to draw much unwanted attention to our College. If either group goes through less official channels and attempt to contact you directly, please refer them to the College's Master Wizard. Say as little as possible so as to avoid compromising our neutral position."

glacial scarab
# spiral aspen Those Synod and College of Wispers mages are garbage compared to Mage Guild of R...

We know nothing of how the mages actually are which is a video game problem and how TES does magic (because for whatever reason ESO has been a better showing of magic then the generic spells of TES3-5). The Mages guild already has its own problems (Traven, Trebonius, Jeanne Frasoric and then Galerion's issue with the guild's political infighting) and the games are poor at actually showing magic and mages being useful.

spiral aspen
# balmy salmon We see Legion battlemages in the intro, I'd guess that the Empire is hoarding th...

Even Titus Mede not have any to guard him. Not to mention Tilius.

Some Imperial Legion members with weak aprentice level knoledges of magic are no real battle mages even if they would try to call them that. They more like weak spellswords of Septim Empire era.

"Spellswords are spellcasting specialists trained to support Imperial troops in skirmish and in battle. Veteran spellswords are prized as mercenaries, and well-suited for careers as adventurers and soldiers-of-fortune."

Those 2?(3 if we include jailer in Helgen prison) mages in Helgen was more like spellswords. In ingame mechanic classes they was a simple minor destruction mages

All Skyrim Jarls and rich people hire mage mercenaries to work for them. Some was from Winterhall, some from other places. Not remember anyone except breton Madena to actually serve to Mede Empire in Great War and etc.

spiral aspen
#

And lorewise Madena was a battle mage in Great War.

Madena is far from home. She is a Breton who served as a battle-mage in the Imperial Legion during the Great War. After seeing the horrors of a large war firsthand, she moved to Dawnstar, hoping that being a court mage in a small hold would be free of complication. She refuses to take sides, insisting that her job is to help the people of Dawnstar. She will support whoever is in power."

glacial scarab
# spiral aspen Even Titus Mede not have any to guard him. Not to mention Tilius. Some Imperial...

The Blades and Imperial Guard (TES3 before the blades were retconned to take their job) are not really shown with Mages. Always been a heavy melee focus. The Penitus Oculatus I think had some mages ingame that I can recall as they had some classes set up with magic (classes is Creation kit stuff for how NPCs stats are spread).

The Imperial Legions ingame is only shown with mages properly in ESO otherwise it's a heavy non-magical focus due to how the games don't really handle the Battlemages well.

#

Imperial Guard being Silver Plate wearing Legionnaires who protected the Emperor and his direct representatives. Status is unknown in TES5.

Imperial Guard
"The Imperial Guard is an elite unit of the Imperial Legion. The Guard is charged with the defense of the Emperor and various of his direct representatives in the provinces. The Duke's rank and responsibilities entitle him to the protection of this elite unit. There is a traditional rivalry between the Imperial Guard and their counterparts in the regular Legions."
https://images.uesp.net/9/94/MW-npc-Duke's_Guard.jpg
https://images.uesp.net/4/45/OBR-npc-Palace_Guard.jpg

Then in TES4 you have heavy armour guys who barely use magic.
https://images.uesp.net/f/fb/OBR-npc-Baurus_02.jpg

spiral aspen
# glacial scarab Imperial Guard being Silver Plate wearing Legionnaires who protected the Emperor...

The Emperor's murder, and the murder of his three sons, is a terrible crime, and a great tragedy for the Empire. Battlemage Ocato assures us that all the resources of the Elder Council, the Legions, the Guard, the Arcane University, and the Imperial Battle College are being employed to bring the assassins to justice. But, in the meantime, the greatest tribute we citizens can offer to the memory of our beloved Emperor is to go earnestly and diligently about our daily affairs, honoring the life of the great Empire he loved so much, and served so faithfully for so long.

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They was deployed in other places

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What was left from them

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There was almost no real battlemages after Battlespire collapse

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A lot of guards and blades was killed before 4 era

glacial scarab
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TES4 tries to have battlemages as guards of the AU but that's only TES4s "Legion" if it even is one. But TES4 has a lot of issues with simply being Cyrodiil and the centre of a Tamriel wide Empire and they fail at both badly.

spiral aspen
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Noone was left to train them, Jagarn Tharn damage them a lot. Then we have other stuff what happen before events in TES4 what doom mage guild as greatly reduce those who was left from experienced mages

4 era was not kind too for Empire.

This is why we see almost none of them in 4 era except ex-battle mage like Madena who run away and live in far far away land of Skyrim. And she is weaker then many non-battlemages who was hired by other Jarls or etc

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Blades suffer too greatly, those who was left was almost noone in order before collapse.

glacial scarab
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Again there's nothing to support that idea. At most it's a game that fails to really show just how much magic would be everywhere and due to how they show the game makes magic look weak if the armies of the world don't use magic from the Emperors Personal armies to the Armies of the Counts and Jarls.

It also doesn't make sense when we're talking of a Empire with Legions all over Tamriel who would then have Battlemages in those Legions. Not everyone will be on the Battlespire and replacing them while it would be hard it's been enough time to trainers to be replaced. Espically when we're talking of The Imperial City and Nibenay.

And if we look at lore scale TES5 can be read as 11 Legions in Skyrim (Legates) and TES3 can be read as 6 Legions on Vvarndefell (Forts). And both these armed forces are overstretched so the Battle College will have recovered and not any of this "no real battlemages" fanon

spiral aspen
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Actually almost all died in Battlespire event and before it(Ria Silmare and etc) cos of Jagarn Tharn plot. He remove many of those who was not loyal to him and who could damage his plans.

Those battlemages what we see survived to be in TES4 events are survivors and most of them are called battle mages but not near as those who was in Battlespire and etc. We heard it from them like when their officer what Archmage Hannibal Traven send to help us to defeat traitor master wizards who joined Mannimarco cults

"I have to admit, I'm better with an axe than I am with Magic. I've been working on spellcasting, but I still feel better with a weapon in hand."

Those battlemages are more like spellswords rather then decent mages.

And Thieves Guild used absense of those survivor battlemages to steal from Arcane University easily.

....

We do not know actual size of those legions. And does Mede Empire Legates command legion or smaller forces cos from Great War books and etc we know only about Generals command legions and we not have many mentions of Generals except Tulius, Jonna and etc. Not to mention that in Cyrodil Empire there was legions in names only. Not numerically. Like battle mages legion. What never have legion size.

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Even in IRL Legion number was varied from 1000 to 5500 and etc

glacial scarab
# spiral aspen Actually almost all died in Battlespire event and before it(Ria Silmare and etc)...

The battlemages in the Mages Guild are not Legion or from the Battle College. They're either Knights of the Lamp or some generic battlemage. They're not Imperial battlemages. Travens illegal feud with the Mages Guild won't use Empire support.

We do not know actual size of those legions. And does Mede Empire Legates command legion or smaller forces cos from Great War books and etc we know only about Generals command legions and we not have many mentions of Generals except Tulius, Jonna and etc. Not to mention that in Cyrodil Empire there was legions in names only. Not numerically. Like battle mages legion. What never have legion size.

There's not really any change. If anythng titles changed but the ranking is the same because there's a similar issue in TES3. There's a General for one Legion but then there's a person above them in Ebonheart.

Again this is all gameplay not lore.

spiral aspen
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Imperial Battlemages was reduced to few people after Battlespire and Jagarn

glacial scarab
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Like Legion structure wise we see the following with TES3 and 5

[Title] Commands 1 Legion
[Title/Person] commands the Legions in province.

glacial scarab
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It's pure fanon and makes no sense for the hundreds of Legions all over Tamriel at the point of TES4 that there's no Legions in Cyrodiil for Ocato to use and the reason he can't send any aid to Bruma.

spiral aspen
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Lorewise only 5 Battlemages train all battlemages. 1 from them become personal battle mage of Emperror. This Imperial Battlemage having the direct power to promote or dismiss members of the mage guild including Archmages

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We know what happen to them, They are all dead except Ocato by end of 3 era-start of 4 era.

Survived battlemages was that barelly trained battlemages we see in Arcane University in 4 era.

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They could not restore their numbers cos of events what happen after Jagarn and they lost a lot of experienced mages who could train them

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Those who we see in Arcane University ARE NOT Knights of The lamp

glacial scarab
glacial scarab
spiral aspen
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Its lore

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They obey to them and Emperror

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And Hannibal Traven directly call them battlemages

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And in letters to Lex too when staff was stolen

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And Empire never have a lot of battlemages.

glacial scarab
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Here's the issue "battlemage" is a generic term. It doesn't mean the Empires military it's just a term for a mage warrior usually in heavy armour.

Traven has no power to command Imperial battlemages (Imperial as in Legion)

spiral aspen
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Those not exist anymore except Ocato

glacial scarab
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Not something you know and is making up.

glacial scarab
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For Traven the "Battlemages" he commands are at most Knights of the Lamp and at least some mercenaries. He has no power over Legion soldiers he's just a civilian and not a Governor.

spiral aspen
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1)I am not talking about battlemages who are those in name but not in skill and actual rank. Not to mention that in 4 era we know only abot breton ex-battlemage who run away and say herself that she not care about civil war cos she is breton and not take side of nords or empire in civil war.

2)"Imperial Guard=Elite bodyguard units of the Legion attached to the Emperor or their direct representatives." Most died, others was send by Ocato to do work as was mentioned in Tes Oblivion

...

It was stated in lore that there was only 5 Imperial battlemages to exist to monitor and train all battlemages, 1 of them from those 5 selected to be personal guard and regent of Emperror and he or she have actual power to command all Archmages of Mages Guilds and remove/replace them as he/she see fit. and battlemages NEVER have actual legion size. They was a legion in name only.

After Jagarn and Battlespire plot and etc before 4 era only Ocato survived(Ria and etc died). Others died. Survivors become those who we see and they was barelly trained compared to those what was before disaster.

spiral aspen
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They are not Knights of Lamp

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Forget about them, they not involved in timeline of Oblivion and after

glacial scarab
# spiral aspen He did and he does. Except him only Ocato is above him.

You're assuming the battlemages that appears in the TES4 questline are Legion which they are not. They're just "battlemages" and are not tied to anything with the Legion. They're just NPCs in Steel armour they are not the Empires battlemages. TES4s Empire Battlemages are just people in Legion armour with a hood thrown on it.

The Mages Guild does not have that power. You've assumed too much with Ocato's position given he's on the Elder Council and he's at the head of the Elder Council.

I don't know how you've been making up the Mages guild has any authority over the Empires battlemages.
The Battlemages in the mages Guild questline are either Knights of the Lamp and not named or just Generic battlemages who are not tied to the Legion or Empire.

spiral aspen
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Hieronymus Lex,

Your vendetta against the Gray Fox has cost the Arcane University dearly. You commandeered the guards patrolling our property. In their absence, someone stole a valuable artifact from the University. We demand that you return all guards to their posts immediately. If you do not do this, we will be forced to bring the matter to the attention of your superior.

Raminus Polus
The Arcane University

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They was Imperial Battlemages, Legion Battlemages

glacial scarab
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He's talking of the AU guards who are Legion. Lex commands people within the Imperial City which includes the AU guards. Lex taking Imperial Soldiers to the waterfront also meant the Legion battlemages didn't protect the AU and thieves got in.

AU Guards while they are Legion Battlemages are not apart of the Mages Guild.

So again The Mages Guild battlemages are not Legion soldiers but something different. They're not tied to the Legion or the Battlespire.

spiral aspen
# glacial scarab He's talking of the AU guards who are Legion. Lex commands people within the Imp...

They are. Point is that what you refer was in timeline what existed BEFORE events of Oblivion and early. Those times and peoples not existed anymore. They was killed, some was replaces by impostors and killed later in time when Uriel was freed by Arena Champion and etc

Majority of Imperial Guard and almost all Septim Empire Battlemages(and only Ocato survived from all 5 Spire Council members who train all batlemages) was killed cos of Jagarn Tharn schemes before 3e389.

After this dissaster some survived Imperial Guards was send to other provinces(like with Vedam Dren Duke of Vvardenfel) when Uriel Septim 7 need them, in that time Ocato give many orders in emperror name and we know that Emperor did not rule Empire cos of many stuff what happen to him and etc.

In 3e427 Uriel Septim 7 made a bosmer lady archer-warrior Allena Benoch as a head of Imperial Guard. Last time she was seen in Summerseth-Firsthold. MAYBe she died there or before 3e433 cos she not guard Emperror and was not mentioned later at all.

After Uriel Septim 7 and his sons was dead, survivors from Imperial Guard and Battlemages was send by Ocato to investigate their deaths which was in 4e433.

In the same 4e433 Mannimarco greatly damage Cyrodil Mages Guild ranks. Some high ranking members join Necromancer Cult and died too.

Later Ocato and Septim Empire as Mages Guild collapse and after some time we get Mede Empire what was formed from pieces of previous Septim Empire collected by Mede and he have his Penitus guards what not have any known battle mages and Titus Mede 2 not have any decent mage to guard and help him.

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The whole system collapsed in less then 40 years

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Stuff what happen before Jagarn, Jagarn rule and later stuff killed them

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This is why we not have any real battlemages in Mede Empire era.

glacial scarab
# spiral aspen They are. Point is that what you refer was in timeline what existed BEFORE event...

Ok you're working on fanon because TES never says anything like that as TES is too vague.

We simply don't get any clear information and to say that most if not all was on the Battlespire at the time doesn't make sense. Most of the Battlemages would've been assigned to Legions all over Tamriel (possibly hundreds of Legions) and the Imperial Guard would be assigned to protect the Emperor (So those ones would be in the Imperial City) and his "direct representatives in the provinces" (which means there's many guardsmen assigned to Governors, Dukes and etc) which means it is impossible for most of the Imperial Guard to even be on the Battlespire. It is simply not possible for most of the Imperial Guard and Legion Battlemages to be on the Battlespire at the time of the game Battelspire.

The Mages Guild again has nothing to do with Imperial Battlemages. They're literally don't do that. "The idea of a collection of Mages, Sorcerers, and assorted Mystics pooling their resources and talents for the purpose of research and public charity was a revolutionary concept in the early years of the Second Era. The only organization then closest in aim and structure to what we know today as the Mages Guild was the Psijic Order of the Isle of Artaeum."

There's nothing to support the idea of the Mede's not having "real battlemages".

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Like that's the TES3 line. It's not even talking of the Battlespire because they're a common thing around the Empires Government all over Tamriel.

Imperial Guard
"The Imperial Guard is an elite unit of the Imperial Legion. The Guard is charged with the defense of the Emperor and various of his direct representatives in the provinces. The Duke's rank and responsibilities entitle him to the protection of this elite unit. There is a traditional rivalry between the Imperial Guard and their counterparts in the regular Legions."

spiral aspen
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You did ignore that Jagarn Tharn kill almost all of them and Battlespire finish of the rest where only 2 people except Ocato survived battlespire events.

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Noone was left to train new ones as was before purge

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Ocato was too busy that he did not have any aprentice

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Those 2 who survived Battlespires dissapear too

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New elected head of Imperial Guard dissapear too before Emperor was assasinated with his sons

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Those who we see in Imperial City and those who Ocato send to investigate are all who was left

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After Oblivion Crisis and Ocato death there was no Imperial Guard and no real Battlemages what would be close to those who existed before purge.

We have almost none of them exist anymore, we have 1 weak one like who we see in Skyrim where she run away after Great War cos she cant handle stress. And she not consider herself as part of Empire only as "breton"

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And yeah Empire have few legions and they barelly could protect Cyrodil not to mention hold other provinces where Ocato have hard time to call help from other provinces

glacial scarab
# spiral aspen You did ignore that Jagarn Tharn kill almost all of them and Battlespire finish ...

Again your fanon doesn't work.

You're trying to make them much, much smaller then they actually would be because I don't think you realize just how large the world is. If the Septims own Governors/direct rulers have Imperial Guard then Morrowind has at least 6 Imperial Guard units protecting the Dukes of their districts (Vvardenfell is a District of the Province of Morrowind with the other Districts being named after the Great Houses).

Then there's the hundreds of Legions all over Tamriel which would've had Battlemages as part of those armies. You're not recalling parts of an army.

These people are not getting recalled for your idea of Tharn killing them all. If anything Tharn wouldn't recall them as it would bring too much attention to himself to recall that many and would leave them.

spiral aspen
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Vedam Dren-Duke of Vvardenfel have them not equal all have them.

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And Vvardenfel was recentrly opened to Empire colonists.

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Not to mention stuff what happen there where Uriel Septim 7 send potential Nerevarine there

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And do help against secret threat of Dagoth Ur

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And we talk about time AFTER Uriel was released and need to rebuild heavily devastated Empire cos of Jagarn and etc

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"hundreds of Legions" ???

glacial scarab
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Again your fanon doesn't work. Dren isn't special and he's actually not involved in anything against Dagoth Ur. That's the Blades and not Dren.

Ebonheart is the seat of the Imperial government for Vvardenfell district, and a busy center of maritime trade. Castle Ebonheart is the home of Duke Vedam Dren, the district's ruler and Emperor's representative. - Guide to Vvardenfell

Imperial Guard (dialogue topic)
"The Imperial Guard is an elite unit of the Imperial Legion. The Guard is charged with the defense of the Emperor and various of his direct representatives in the provinces. The Duke's rank and responsibilities entitle him to the protection of this elite unit. There is a traditional rivalry between the Imperial Guard and their counterparts in the regular Legions."

Slavery is uncommon in Redoran and Hlaalu Districts, common in Telvanni, Indoril, and Dres Districts." - Brallion about slavery.

spiral aspen
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Dren isn't special???

I beg your pardon. Duke Vedam Dren, Grandmaster of Great House Hlaalu and person who responsible to Vvardenfel lands filled with ebony and etc precious resoucers and etc.

Do you see any Imperial Guards guarding other people?

glacial scarab
# spiral aspen "hundreds of Legions" ???

TES3 goes by a fort = a Legion and TES5 goes by a Legate = 1 Legion since they command a Legion.

Which gives us TES5 with 11 Legions (9 holds, rikke and player). TES3 has 7 (Pelagiad, Buckmoth, Fort Darius (Deathshead Legion), Moonmoth, Hawkmoth (Hawkmoth Legion), Frostmoth, Wolverine Hall)

So if we're saying that at least 11 Legions is a "bare handful" and that 6 Legions are overstreched on Vvardenfell (Frostmoth isn't tied to Morrowind).

spiral aspen
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Yeah Gnisis Legion in name only and with many others

glacial scarab
spiral aspen
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He control one of the most valuable pieces of lands of Empire

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Probably the most valuable after Imperial City

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Summerseth was autonomy with closed ports available to Empire trade and embassies

glacial scarab
spiral aspen
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How many do you see in other lands?

glacial scarab
spiral aspen
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And what does head of Imperial Guard did in Fisthold?

glacial scarab
# spiral aspen How many do you see in other lands?

We only see one Duke because TES3 is set in one District where the Imperial Government rules Vvardenfell from, TES4 has a bunch of Feudal kingdoms with the Emperor having no one in the Kingdoms of Cyrodiil and TES5 has no Imperial government just Nordic government (Just Jarls with General Tullius as an advisor as Ralof is wrong).

So there are no direct representatives in TES4 or 5 so you only had the Emperor and the Penitus replaced the Blades. TES4 already creates the problem of what do the Blades and Imperial Guard handle. TES4 just has the Guard handle the Palace while the Blades/Penitus guard the person so you see them in the sewers with the blades, Cloud Ruler Temple with the Emperor and the Katariah with the Emperor.

spiral aspen
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We not see them cos most of them was DEAD after Jagarn and Battlespire massacre.

We some some guard Duke AFTER events of TES2 cos they was needed to guard Empire loalist who govern one of the most valuable piece of land of Empire with ebony, dwemer stuff and Dagoth Ur threat.

They was needed there cos Symmachus was assasinated as Barenzia uncle which was a way for Barenzia and Helseth to return and rule Morrowind lands.

Head of those Imperial Guard was send to various places and nothing about her was known after she was in Fisthold. But we know that she was not with Morghia or etc.

We know that Emperror and his sons was killed as many other people.

We know that in 40 years noone restore battlemages and the only survived legit person who was left to train battlemages did not train any aprentice cos he was busy to govenrn Empire.

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They never have a lot people

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Not in Battlemages and Imperial Guard and Blades spies

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And Empire of Septim 7 era not have hundreds legions

glacial scarab
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There's nothing to support them being all murdered. That's your fanon that the games never support.

spiral aspen
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ITs canon

glacial scarab
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No the Battlespires destruction is canon. The state of the Imperial guard and Battlemages is not that's your creation.

spiral aspen
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Where Imperial Guard was trained?

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And Battlemages

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What Jagarn Tharn lorewise did to those who was outside of It when he get rid from Uriel 7 and etc?

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Forget about Tiber Septim era. We talk about Uriel 7 and post Jagarn Tharn situation

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Imperial Guards and Battlemages was crippled heavily and those minority what survived dissapear quickly in less then 45 years

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And yeah Blades degrade a lot too.

glacial scarab
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29 years before TES3 the battlespire is Destroyed. You thinking that Tharn killed nearly every single Legion battlemage and "Imperial Guard" Guardsmen is simply not possible and nonsensical.

Again we have no evidence of degrading blades as well. TES has always been terrible with magic from a game world stand point like I said before everyone's armies lacks mages this isn't a Tharn thing but a game development thing.

spiral aspen
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Even in Morrowind time we have those

Uriel Septim was never a strong Emperor. And now he's finally dying of age and illness. A coward's death. They say Ocato makes the real decisions. They say Uriel's heirs are really Daedra or shapeshifters planted by Jagar Tharn. They say the Emperor might pull back the Legions to try and protect himself. Some of the generals in the Legions have one eye on Uriel Septim and one eye on the throne. At a time like this, only the Imperial Guilds with strong allies will survive.

glacial scarab
spiral aspen
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Mage Guild degrate too, like a lot

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And yeah Highrock and Morrowind mages as Dominion lads are better then Cyrodil and etc ones

glacial scarab
spiral aspen
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I do not said that he himself kill each of them

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He have a lot of help and he hide the whole revolt for long time and only Ria Silmare ghost and Barenzia exposed that stuff

glacial scarab
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Barenziah is lying. She was not involved her book is all about hiding her actions with Tharn when here lies conflict with TES1 and 2.

glacial scarab
spiral aspen
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Uriel 7 own to her a lot.

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This is why she was supported to be Queen of Morrowind once again and her son become King.

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Without Empire direct involment this never would happen especially after they failed to control Weyrest lands after they was practically exiled from Morrowind

glacial scarab
spiral aspen
glacial scarab
spiral aspen
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If Uriel Septim 7 not own to them this would not happen

glacial scarab
spiral aspen
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And Duke Vedam Dren probably would be less guarded and have less influence over Vvardenfell, especially consider his brother

spiral aspen
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Only aunt survived and we see her in TES3

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In the end after Uriel 7 was Emperror once more and etc stuff Barenzia and Helseth was returned back, have huge Empire support and Cheyndinhall have new ruler who was their crony and he was almost nobody from Hlaalu

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And yeah a lot hated Helseth and he need more guard then Emperror himself have according to Barenzia and etc

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So yeah Uriel 7 and etc do own a lot to Barenzia as they did to Edwyn and etc

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Even in Empress Katariah times they not have so much as they did after they help to Uriel Septim 7

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So her help to Uriel 7 was not unreliable narration

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Barenzia child from Tharn himself could be unreliable narration but noone would know cos Tharn was a very good mage and spy who could impersonate many people cos of magic and his skills. And he was as Symmachus describe him altmero-dunmer with bosmer mother. So noone would tell. It could be dunmer Drywen Indoril or could be Tharn or someone else.

So called Skyrim Barenzia granddaughter with uncommon amethyst purple eyes and light ash skin kinda raise question how much of dunmer blood she have in her veins. But its pointless cos we not see her mother and her father.

glacial scarab
balmy salmon
spiral aspen
# balmy salmon The out-of-game text [Imperial Census of Daedra Lords](https://www.imperial-libr...

Canonically 2 survived, Mehrun in Battlespire was banished by 1 with daedric artefacts help. Weir Gate Massacre was in 3e398.

This text what was written and was intended-wished by MK to be part of Pocket Guide 3e433 is not a canon in any way, it was not used and contradict with TES Oblivion Kvatch events which was in main quest.

Before beginning TESOblivion events in late part of 3e433 we have only this event in Kvatch.

"Family strife in Kvatch claimed the lives of both sons of Count Haderus Goldwine, vying for the inheritance. While peace has been restored, the Count, at the time of this writing, is still in mourning, and has not designated a new heir."

balmy salmon
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Battlespire was a training facility, not a garrison. The Legion of the time was a continent spanning organization, the vast majority of the battlemages in the Legion would not be stationed there, especially in the chaos of the Interregnum. It'd certainly be a setback due to needing to establish a new training facility, but there's no evidence in any future titles that it somehow took away their capacity to field battlemages.

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Also worth pointing out there are multiple references to a magic "Imperial Battle College" in TES IV, indicating that it's still operating even after the loss of Battlespire.

wanton sparrow
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I wonder if we will ever see a actual snow elf settlement someday

image.png
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an army of em would look cool

image.png
slate shoal
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snow elves mentioned

slate shoal
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the helmet is from warhammer fantasy
the spear is from baldurs gate
the shield is ysgramors shield

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i loove snow elves and they deserve more content but please don't drag them to that level

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the beauty of designing and creating it with your own personal vision gives it more life than simple words put in a prompt

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that being said it is scary how accurate the snow elf armor is

wanton sparrow
wanton sparrow
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most of the good stuff is hard to find as well

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wish there was a art for TES forum or somethin

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They should do that here, make a art channel

slate shoal
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a lot of art for the snow elves also makes them blue and its like
no !!!!

glacial scarab
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Clearly the snow prince looked like this.

Though I wonder why they used steel instead of something of better material.

MW-item-Steel_Armor_Male.png
wanton sparrow
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Pale elves

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pale as ice and snow

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and armor designs that rival the altmer or at least evens out

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the fact that no sleeves might also indicate they are very resistant to the cold

slate shoal
raw grail
wanton sparrow
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Didnt that mountain always be that active? it wasnt till recently that it erupted to the point the dunmer were rekt

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it seems tragedy befell all mer races

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i wonder why

slate shoal
sharp lantern
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It was active during Arena

spiral aspen
# slate shoal red mountain has only been active twice iirc

Historically it was recorded that it was erupted 3 times. 1e668, 2e882 and 4e5.

It could and probably did erupted earlier then 1 era, but noone record it.

But even without 3 huge eruptions what have block sun on large parts of Tamriel and shift landmasses sink some dwemer and chimer cities, enlarge Morrowind inner sea and etc, vulcano was active and smog with ashes did fly.

balmy salmon
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It was supposedly active in TES III because lava flows are what keep the foyadas clear of foilage.

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Would've been so cool if periodic weak eruptions were a weather phenomenon, temporarily turning the foyadas into lava rivers.

glacial scarab
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I'd imagine there's probably some Dwemer contraption to stop it from erupting. They did build a place inside the volcano after all.

spiral aspen
# balmy salmon It was supposedly active in TES III because lava flows are what keep the foyadas...

Foyada

    "'Foyada' means 'fire-river' in the native Ashlander language. The deep, ash-dark ravines which run down from the Red Mountain volcano are called foyada. The lava from Red Mountain is very fluid, and it runs almost like water, **and during an eruption, fire-rivers run down the mountain, clearing the ravines of vegetation**. Because they have good footing, are clear of brush, and run long distances, the natives use them like roads."

Foyada Mamaea

    "Foyada Mamaea is a volcanic ravine that runs from the top of Red Mountain southwest to its end just below Balmora. An old Dwemer bridge crosses the foyada near Fort Moonmoth. The best route to Ghostgate is to follow Foyada Mamaea up from where the Pelagiad-Balmora road crosses the foyada southeast of Fort Moonmoth."
spiral aspen
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Their cities was burried or sink or was destroyed

pastel sorrel
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Remember they were spread all across Tamriel, not just Morrowind. The eruption isn't why they disappeared, it was a result of why they disappeared.

spiral aspen
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But we must see TES6 to understand what kind of Dwemer ruins would be there in 4 era.

spiral aspen
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Hope to get 2 provinces in TES6, like Highrock+Hammerfel and Orsinium and islands as DLCs

pastel sorrel
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I hope the opposite, I'd rather they focused on one province at a time rather than splitting their work across multiple

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I wouldn't even care if they only did half the province at release and then the other half, if it means they can focus on filling in each bit. You can set the whole game in a single city as long as it's done right.

robust lintel
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It's the pairing I fancy. Like a great glass of wine with a great steak. Better than either one alone on it's own, not as two separate provinces or games, but allowing them to mix together to create something that can only be achieved together. I'd love to see another game in the future pairing the Argonians & Dunmer. Then the Khajiit & Wood Elves. But at this time, I would not do more than 2 provinces. Aim for more, but know when it's enough at that period of time. Frankly there wouldn't be a point for more right now until getting to some all-out war across all of Tamriel. ESO satisfies that for now.

glacial scarab
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They can barely handle one though.

spiral aspen
# pastel sorrel I hope the opposite, I'd rather they focused on one province at a time rather th...

2 years from Arena1994 to Daggerfall1996

1 year from Daggerfall to Battlespire1997

1 year from Battlespire to Redguard1998

4 years from Redguard to Morrowind2002+1 year to made and release Bloodmoon and Tribunal DLC

4 years from Morrowind(with DLC) to made Oblivion2006+1 year to made Shivering Islands and etc dlc.

Fallout 3 2008+5 DLC in 2009.

Fallout New Vegas 2010(majority was made by Obsidian but where Bethesda devs did a huge work in final year of development cos Obsidian failed to made it work properly and it was unplayable have a lot of bugs and etc, worst then was with KOTOR2)

5 years from Oblivion to made Skyrim2011+1 year to Dawnguard, Heartfire and Dragonborn.

2012...no more TES games since.

2015 Fallout 4(+Automaton, Far Harbor and Nuka World in 1 year after)

2016 Todd told that TES6 "It's good to tell our fans in these moments, yes, of course we are [making The Elder Scrolls VI]." He cautioned expectations in regards to the game's progress by warning that it was a ways off and would take a lot of time to complete before its eventual launch.

2018 TES6 teaser trailer.

2019 youtuber Shirly Curry was recorded and scanned for TES6 to be cameo and Bethesda later did sold some cameo places.

2023 Starfield game(2 small(compared to previous Bethesda games dlcs) DLC in 3 years.), and game was started in active development since 2015 and have trailer in 2018.

So i am pretty sure that Bethesda who did increse their devs numbers+ add many ex-modders into their ranks could do TES6 game with 2 provinces. Especially considering how much time passed and i am 100% that Bethesda do work on TES 6 in huge time gaps between games. They have much more devs, much more time and money and tech to do it properly.

Srly we wait for 15 years for TES6. And Bethesda clearly do some work since at least 2018=8 years.

pastel sorrel
#

As a wise man once said, don't half-ass two things, full-ass one thing.

#

It's fairly easy to make something like TES1 nowadays, it was largely procedural generation. Try making something like TES5 instead.

robust lintel
#

I think he was just showing progress, growth, innovation and expansion slowly over the years instead of things staying the same indefinitely and getting stale.

I think most people would agree if they got over the doomsday mindset that Bethesda can't handle doing more. As if they'd stay that way forever? Failures are to be expected in life and it takes time to learn from them along with further experimentations.

robust lintel
#

I'm also interested to see the various conflicts & interactions taking place in real-time between two provinces centered & focused on, witnessing & taking part in the experience. Instead of it usually being all contained within the borders of a (full) single province, single race (as far as the last two titles go, ..that is).

pastel sorrel
#

I mean, it's more a matter of Bethesda themselves making sure to only do one at a time. They haven't done more than one province since TES2 in 1997.

#

They focus it down. Otherwise they'd be splitting the work across two.

#

Two provinces means twice the work or else half the content each.

robust lintel
#

Well, TES3 wasn't really a full province either I'd say. TES2 was a small chunk of two provinces, but really centered on the bay itself between them. TES1 was all of them, but yk, compared to today, it's bare bones.

pastel sorrel
#

I'm aware of that, it still goes to show that they had to focus.

robust lintel
#

I could see the point if they were trying to do 2 full provinces back in early 2000s era on past technology and devices.

pastel sorrel
#

I'm not saying they can't do two provinces. I'm saying I'd rather they put that polish towards one single province, at least on release.

robust lintel
#

And yes there is always focus, it just shifts.

pastel sorrel
#

They have demonstrated a capacity to be stretched thin across too much space

#

And I'd like to not see that in TES6

robust lintel
#

Ik, but if they can do both provinces just as well as a single one, then what's to complain?

pastel sorrel
#

Fundamentally they are not going to be able to do it as well as a single one with limited resources.

#

That's the point. It might be good, but I'd rather have the single best.

#

If they had infinite time and money, sure, they could do all of Tamriel at lore scale for all it mattered. But they don't.

robust lintel
#

Well, as I said earlier, it's okay to grow things, but also to know when to stop at that period of time.

raw grail
#

Their best work with a culture has been even smaller than one province, in Morrowind

robust lintel
#

Not necessarily, and in some cases, things can be worse without the other. So it really depends.
Contrary to the original quote, I also do think there is such a thing as focusing too much on one egg and overcooking it. I've seen people create something beautiful, and then ruin it due to overperfecting it, spending too much time on one tile instead of covering the whole thing. You gotta branch out creativity.

And what is their "best work" is subjective from individual to individual.

raw grail
#

I don't think Morrowind being their best work on a culture is very subjective?

#

They've said themselves it was not their focus in Oblivion and Skyrim

robust lintel
#

Well, that's the beauty of it. We all have our own opinions on what we think from one thing to another.

raw grail
#

Which is a product of those games zooming out. In the process, they made it harder to focus on a single culture and really flesh it out. That's how we get Oblivion reducing Imperial culture to whatever we have now, with next to no Colovian/Nibenese split, and Skyrim nearly deleting the Nords' religion, etc

robust lintel
#

I understand your view, and others, but I don't share in it friend.

raw grail
#

As compared to the Tribunal Temple being a very fleshed out religion, Vvardenfell getting the additional details and nuances with the conflict between the Tribunal Temple and Ashlanders and all the complexity in their views, even fleshing out of Imperial religion and Orcish culture

raw grail
#

Todd Howard: Well, the main thing on the top is, "What does each game kind of do?". Arena gives you the world, sets the world of The Elder Scrolls. And then Daggerfall really pushes the characters, so Daggerfall is about me the player. And Morrowind really pushes the places, the world feels more real, it's built by hand. Oblivion, the people become more alive, now they have schedules and they walk around. Okay, what are we doing with Skyrim? Most people say "Dragons", but that wasn't it. Skyrim is "Okay, how do all of these things connect? How does the person moving through the world create a story element?". You know, so there was a lot of story threads 'drop a pebble on the pond' kind of idea for Skyrim where those things are connected. Most people focused on the dragons.

#

Morrowind's focus was on the world. Oblivion's was on giving people schedules and lives. Skyrim's was on having ripple effects, like the random events responding to quests you've done

#

You may not want the world and culture to be a focus, that's fine

robust lintel
#

There's multiple focuses going on throughout all the games. But I'd say the main focus that encompasses all that is telling a story.

raw grail
#

Okay, yeah, sure, that's the focus of any narrative video game, but I'm saying their primary focus shifted according to Todd

#

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Todd_Howard_PAX_East_2019_Interview
This is directly from an interview with him

General:Todd Howard PAX East 2019 Interview

This interview with Todd Howard was conducted in-person on March 28, 2019, at the Bethesda Gameplay Days event during PAX East 2019, shortly after this panel. It was a casual interview, held in a very small room behind the stage where the RAGE 2 presentation was taking place. The UESP members present during the interview were Alarra and baratron...

robust lintel
#

Shifted or goal posts while retaining the former too? Sometimes people mean more than say word-for-word or I'm just reading too much into what he said when he says how "all things connect" by the time he gets to Skyrim. As if he just layed an outline for how the game has grown since it's first title and Skyrim connecting all those dots together. What's a ripple effect without having all those previous goal posts from the previous games in there too. But that's just how I interpreted it myself. Not saying I'm right over you or anyone else. Just expressing my point of view.

raw grail
#

He says himself at the beginning of the quote, "What does each kind of game do?"

#

Which I underlined to draw attention to because it explicitly lays out that he is talking about the goal shifting from game to game. Obviously each goal coexists, it's not like Skyrim has no interest in giving people lives, but if we look at what Skyrim does, it worries much less about the schedules of people than Oblivion does, doesn't have people travel between holds, etc. That wasn't their goal. Even if you weren't reading the quote, it should be evident from the ways the games reflect this shift in focus

robust lintel
#

Ik, I read. And that's how I interpreted it. You see it differently than I do. Hence, why you were saying earlier that I misunderstand you and perhaps I do, because we just see things differently.

raw grail
#

.-.

#

Skyrim literally by its mechanics does not care as much about schedules. I don't understand what there is to "see differently," there is just objectively fewer ways in which Skyrim establishes and uses schedules

robust lintel
#

Alot of it is experimentation too and seeing how much is too much or too little and getting it just right, balance. They tried voice for the player in Fallout 4 and well.. I don't think it's something you will see repeated if I had to guess.

raw grail
#

Yeah, never took issue with the fact they switch goals between games, I think it's a good way to keep things fresh to some extent

robust lintel
#

Can I just have my own point of view without be debated on how I am supposed to see things. I really need to get some sleep, please. ^_^

raw grail
#

I'm just confused how the quote can really be read differently, but w/e ig. Gn

robust lintel
#

Gracias amigo 🙇 Mucho bueno.

robust lintel
balmy salmon
raw grail
#

i think it helped, but i think it's hardly responsible on its own, considering how big of an effect other things like limited scope can have. it does help make a lot of raw information available tho

upper field
#

<@&784552314911588403>

signal raptor
glacial scarab
#

Wonder how long until TES removes "Provinces" as a term since the changes to the Imperials and their "Empire" means it no longer works.

lean axle
#

My favorite skyrim lore channel

slate shoal
#

he's kind of a weird one

#

did twin mod the college to be falmer materials

gaunt bear
# lean axle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJGUWbDip_A

I’ve actually got something planned for the Eye in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls writings: Thanks to the Psijic Order being, understandably, concerned about the Breach, as well as the planar vortices linking Thedas and Mundus, they’ve taken up with the Inquisition, and learned about Skyhold. Taking a sample of Skyhold’s mountain rock back with them to Artaeum (did I get that spelled right?), they’ve discovered it “responding sympathetically” (for lack of a better term) to the Eye of Magnus. When they bring it with them to Skyhold (which, in the writings, has a proper mage’s tower), the Eye, somehow, begins restabilizing itself, so they leave it there while supervising it and also providing the Order’s knowledge (magical or otherwise) to the Inquisition.

It’s also the reason why the Thalmor attack Skyhold, alongside attempting to obtain the Anchor for their own goals.

robust lintel
#

I'm not even gonna bother tagging this crap everyday, burned out on it. Wish there was some auto-bot feature to detect and delete it automatically.

proven moss
#

I thought this was TIL for a second and was trying to kick them 😂

signal raptor
long coral
#

Alright I need real TES nerds rn

I want to give my Lich character a wasting disease, one that causes disfigurement and slighg madness. Anyone know what I could potentially use?

balmy salmon
#

Serpiginous Dementia

#

Or if you want something much worse- and almost invariably fatal- you could go with Corprus.

gaunt bear
# balmy salmon Or if you want something much worse- and almost invariably fatal- you could go w...

Speaking of Corprus, I’ve actually got something for that in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction: when Corprus victims (especially ones in the advanced stages of infection) are exposed to the inherent magic of Skyhold, they literally ‘shed’ their infectious carapaces (like cicadas shed their larval skins) and come out young and (shockingly) hot (so Dunmer with Corprus end up looking like hot anime elves). When word of this inevitably reaches Divath Fyr (did I spell that right?), he arrives in Skyhold and arranges a deal: he studies the effects of Skyhold’s inherent magic on Corprus victims, and provides his years of studies to Skyhold’s mages.

slate shoal
#

there's already a prion disease in oblivion so twist it for your own lore

raw grail
long coral
balmy salmon
raw grail
#

We have no examples of it being used more generally after that but tbf the lore was introduced in a game taking place before. That's certainly the dominant way it's used atp either way tho yeah

signal tapir
#

Thank you

primal bough
#

Konahrik was originally worn by Miraak, before he fell.

sand flume
#

konahrik was originally worn by vahlok, and simply chose not to wear it at all times because it was too precious an artifact

slender latch
#

Our blessed lore channel has arrived.

primal bough
#

I think not. The 2 masks are clearly linked. One is adorned in the shape of the Aka-Tusk and the other with Herma Mora's tentacles

weak solstice
sand flume
#

linked because vahlok and miraak are linked

primal bough
#

Thats the one Mora gave him, after he fell

sand flume
#

i dont know what suggests miraak was ever high enough in the order to be deserving of konahrik, meanwhile vahlok who is known to have been extremely powerful lacking any mask at all is very strange

#

weve got a mask with no priest and a priest with no mask, makes sense to match them up

primal bough
#

I think k the fact that Konahrik was the first Dragonborn would speak for itself. He has a natural affinity with the Thu'um

uncut hatch
#

Or
The warlord mask was made for us all along

sleek grove
#

I think if you take the mask from the past it belongs to no-one

uncut hatch
#

A deterrent nuclear device

sand flume
#

the warlord mask was made for you, the successor to vahlok

#

you who successfully kills miraak where vahlok failed

left current
#

Tamriel belongs to the dreugh

sand flume
#

tru

uncut hatch
#

Accurate⬆️

sand flume
#

vahlok was stronger so he wouldve been more deserving of konahrik

weak solstice
#

miraak is a wuss

#

was and always will be

sand flume
#

miraak is the traditional player who cant be asked to do the main quest

#

but then whilst hes off grinding somewhere he cheats (consorts with a daedric prince) and needs an admin to punish him

#

thats why you have access to console commands, admin

#

||/s||

weak solstice
#

i was about to go pankrato

#

you saved it

sand flume
#

lmao

#

dont you know, save scumming, exploits and console commands are all canon results of CHIM which the protagonist has definitely achieved 100% without a doubt

#

||also /s if i didnt make it obvious enough||

primal bough
#

Sorry I went AFK, working on dinner. My theory is that Miraak was the bearer of Konahrik at one time. But he betrayed Akatosh and Alduin both, choosing instead to serve Herma Mora. We, as the Last Dragonborn, were sent to Nirn to fulfill Miraak's original purpose of restoring Alduin to the Aka-Tusk.

sand flume
#

akatosh as we know him didnt exist yet

primal bough
#

Aka-Tusk.

#

The Time Dragon Oversoul

weak solstice
#

It would be Alduin, i think

#

also what is this "restoring Alduin to the Aka-Tusk" business

sand flume
#

miraak was blessed by a time god to be dragonborn to punish alduin for turning against his ways; you were blessed by akatosh to punish alduin as well, but youre also a void ghost so you have an ulterior motive of permakilling him so the kalpic cycle may never repeat

weak solstice
#

Atmorans have been venerating Alduin for centuries

weak solstice
primal bough
#

But Alduin is meant to Eat the World and restart the Kalpa, not rule as a God-King

weak solstice
#

void ghost literally doesn't do anything

#

it's irrelevant to this

#

it's the **absence ** of Lorkhan

sand flume
#

its very relevant, youre stabbing the serpent that forms the ouroboros, just as talos' statue

#

miraak did not have the same goal

#

he was simply meant to punish alduin, not perma end him

#

well miraaks goal ended up being to ignore his destiny altogether but you get what i mean

weak solstice
#

Void Ghost is a very underdeveloped idea by MK, that is absolutely not related to the Dragonborn or anything on Nirn

primal bough
#

Not goal. Purpose. Destiny. He defied the plans that had been laid out for him

sand flume
#

void ghost is extremely developed

weak solstice
#

if IRC chats is development, then yes

sand flume
#

you are the stormcrown, relating you specifically to talos

#

you can sit in shors throne, where in oblivion you could only sit in sheos throne after beginning to mantle sheogorath

weak solstice
#

about the void ghost bit specifically

#

I agree with most of the other stuff

sand flume
#

gimme a sec

weak solstice
#

void ghost is less relevant to Nirn than the Magna-Ge

#

those at least have some presense there

weak solstice
#

Is everything cool dude

#

You’ve been replying for half an hour

sand flume
#

yes i get easily distracted sorry i am writing it eventually

cosmic thistle
#

Void ghost is essentially another name for Sithis

#

I think you might be thinking of Shezarrine but Shezarrine and Ysmir are two different things, Ysmir has often been used as just another title for Nord kings (though that practice is long dead)

#

and no, the LDB is not a shezarrine, that is never even hinted at and the theory around "LDB is a shezarrine" is very flimsy

weak solstice
#

Well there is some prophetic force behind the LDB for sure

cosmic thistle
#

That's literally every TES hero though

weak solstice
#

Yes

cosmic thistle
#

Not even just the heroes, there are prophecies around basically everything

#

I remember back on the old bethesda forums there would be one person trying to do the whole "LDB is Talos!!!" or "Shezarrine!!" with twenty people openly pointing out every flaw with the theory

#

After Talos was created there really isn't a point to have a shezarrine anymore because the entire point of Talos as a deity was a new Lorkhan, Talos mantled Lorkhan

#

As such Shezarrines really don't need to exist anymore

uncut hatch
#

When the HOK mantled sheo sheo didn't disappear, the prince reformed as Jyg

#

You saying Lorkhan couldn't have reformed

cosmic thistle
#

No because Lorkhan is dead

#

look to the skies, his corpse flies in three

uncut hatch
#

The still beating heart

cosmic thistle
#

his heart in red mountain banished

weak solstice
#

The point of Lorkhan is that he is missing

cosmic thistle
#

He is dead

#

Talos is the new Lorkhan

weak solstice
#

He is the missing god

#

Yea

cosmic thistle
#

Shezarrines did not need to remain because Talos became Lorkhan as a whole

weak solstice
#

Lorkhan is dead
Long live Talos

cosmic thistle
#

or rather Lorkhan became Talos

uncut hatch
#

The three in one

#

aren't people saying that when Uriel septim got kidnapped and lorkhan came to him and changed him somehow or this is wrong?

cosmic thistle
#

I've never heard of that

primal bough
#

News to me

uncut hatch
#

Did he actually change or not?

weak solstice
#

What

cosmic thistle
#

He did change but he was also trapped in a pocket realm in Oblivion that appeared to age him

weak solstice
#

Jagar Thatt kidnapped him and pretended to be him

#

Uriel was bald after he was saved

#

Probably due to stress

cosmic thistle
#

"In 3E 389, Uriel VII was betrayed by Imperial Battlemage Jagar Tharn, who imprisoned him in Oblivion.[4] Tharn then used illusion magic to assume the Emperor's identity. As the Amulet of Kings would warn the Elder Council in the event of Uriel VII's death, Tharn held Uriel VII in a dimension where time ran slower, ensuring it would take centuries for the true Emperor to die.[5] For the next ten years, Tharn abused imperial privilege but did not continue Uriel VII's schedule of reconquest. It is not entirely known what Tharn's goals and personal accomplishments were during the ten years he imitated his liege lord.[3]

Tharn was eventually defeated in 3E 399 by the Eternal Champion, who freed Uriel VII from his other-dimensional cell.[6] After his release, Uriel VII worked diligently to renew the battle to reunite Tamriel. Tharn's interference broke the momentum, but the following years proved that the lauded golden age of Tiber Septim could return to Tamriel once more."

#

so imagine ten years feeling way longer

sand flume
#

Our confirmed ysmirs are tiber septim, wulfharth, pelinal whitestrake and you, the last dragonborn. Tiber who mantled shezarr taking his place as the missing god, wulfharth who is "shors tongue", and pelinal who is a confirmed shezarrine.

We know that the void ghost is extremely prevalent throughout mundus, whilst the term is scarcely seen outside the sermons and MKs texts, we have can see the idea clearly in other texts such as the khajiiti creation myth:

"The children of Fadomai tore out the Heart of Lorkhaj and hid it deep within Nirni. And they said, "We curse you, noisy Lorkhaj, to walk Nirni for many phases.""

  • The Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi

Or relating specifically to pelinal (but likely representative of the whole idea):

"Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorcerer, and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wandered Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again."

  • Before the Ages of Man

In sermon 33 of the sermons of vivec:

Lie Rock became full of foolishness, haggling with the Void Ghost who hides in the religions of all men. The Void Ghost said:

'Stay with me a full hundred years and I will give you a power that no divinity will dare disobey.'
But before the hundred years was up, Vivec was already looking for Lie Rock and found him.

'Stupid stone,' Vivec said. 'To hide in the Scaled Blanket is to make a mark on nothing. His bargains are only for ruling kings!'

Sermon 37

Vivec was borne by ribbons of water, which wrote their starward couplings in red. This was a new place of speed. His eyes broke on the spikes above the tower, where the Void Ghost squatted over a drake-scaled drum, imbecile in its rhythm. And he asked of it:

#

We have enough in game, forget MKs obscure texts, to confirm the void ghosts existance and understand what he is, the lost will of lorkhan who wanders mundus, and skyrim gives us plenty of reason to believe that the last dragonborn is one as well.
For one you have your goal, talos loved the world so much that he refused amaranth in order to protect it, he does not want to see this world reset. Talos' statue depicts himself stabbing a serpent beneath him, likely a reference to jormungandr, a serpent from nordic mythology who forms an ouroboros and is said to cause ragnarok, the ouroboros of course a reference to cycles, and ragnarok which is well the apocalypse haha; by killing alduin (who causes the kalpic cycle by literally ending the world and starting it again) you are fulfilling talos' (who mantled lorkhan) will by ending the kalpic cycle once and for all.
Your prophecy is also a complete re-enactment of Ysmir Wulfharth's story

"The third song of King Wulfharth tells of his death. Orkey, an enemy god, had always tried to ruin the Nords, even in Atmora where he stole their years away. Seeing the strength of King Wulfharth, Orkey summoned the ghost of Alduin Time-Eater again. Nearly every Nord was eaten down to six years old. Boy Wulfharth pleaded to Shor, the dead Chieftain of the Gods, to help his people. Shor's own ghost then fought the Time-Eater on the spirit plane, as he did at the beginning of time, and he won, and Orkey's folk, the Orcs, were ruined. As Boy Wulfharth watched the battle in the sky he learned a new thu'um, What Happens When You Shake the Dragon Just So. He used this new magic to change his people back to normal. In his haste to save so many, though, he shook too many years out on himself. He grew older than the Greybeards, and died. The flames of his pyre were said to have reached the hearth of Kyne itself."

  • Five Songs of King Wulfharth, "Old Knocker"
#

Lorkhaj is said to kill Alkhan in the khajiiti myth as well

"Alkhan. The Scaled Prince. Firstborn of Akha, who bred with a demon of fire and shadow. He can devour the souls of those he kills to grow to an immense size. The songs tell us Alkhan was slain by Lorkhaj and his companions, but as an immortal Son of Akha he will return from the Many Paths in time."

  • The Wandering Spirits

And of course the greybeards labelling you both ysmir and stormcrown, same as talos.
Another interesting connection to lorkhan is through shor's throne, you can immediately sit in it as soon as you enter the hall of valour, bethesda in shivering isle made an effort to only allow you to sit in sheogoraths throne after beginning to mantle him, so you immediately being able to sit in shors throne sugggest a strong connection to him at the very least.
We cannot forget the ghost of old hroldan who recognises you as Hjalti, an alterego of tiber septim (though this one may be attributed to being dragonborn).
On a smaller note the promo dragonborn is even shown in a similar fashion to talos, holding a sword and with a serpant coiled around you.

#

took a lil bit

full sierra
#

Him going in younger and physically healthy and then coming out weaker and frailer probably had something to do with the dimension he was imprisoned in yea

uncut hatch
sand flume
#

according to the sermons

the Void Ghost who hides in the religions of all men

hiding for he fills the role of the missing god

where the Void Ghost squatted over a drake-scaled drum

the drum being an obvious reference to the doom drum, lorkhan

cosmic thistle
#

Greybeards don't name you stormcrown though, is the wild part.

sand flume
#

its the ghost squatting on his corpse

sand flume
cosmic thistle
#

They only name you Ysmir which again is just a title that has been attributed to more people then who we know of.

"He took for himself a Cyrodilic name, Tiber Septim[nb 3], and the Nordic Name of Kings, Ysmir, the Dragon of the North. And with those names he took, too, the Red Diamond Crown of the Cyrodiils, and became their True Emperor." Thus was born the Third Empire of Men."

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ysmir

Lore:Ysmir
sand flume
#

and all our confirmed ones are void ghosts

cosmic thistle
#

Ysmir was the Nordic Name for Kings until Tiber took it for himself

sand flume
cosmic thistle
#

ok the problem is, the big problem is, Talos mantled Lorkhan thus shezarrines no longer need to be a thing.

sand flume
#

why does talos mantling lorkhan make void ghosts irrelevant? as i stated you the last dragonborn act in talos' will now, just as other void ghosts wouldve acted in lorkhans

cosmic thistle
#

The entire point of Talos mantling Lorkhan was he took over the missing role, he became the missing sibling of the divines

#

which used to be Shezarr in Imperial mythology

#

Shezarr being the Cyrodiilic aspect of Lorkhan

sand flume
#

you think the void ghost appeared because he was a missing god? its because he is the only god who has a ghost because he is the most dead of all gods, and talos now occupies the same space

#

lorkhan being the god of mortality was in a perpetual state of dying before the creation, so naturally when the creation occurs the literal first event is his death, and he becomes the void ghost

#

now that void ghost belongs to talos

cosmic thistle
#

You've done very little to actually point out how the LDB is a shezarrine. Just because a throne is empty, there is a Khajiit tale of Lorkhan taking many forms (which doesn't mention the LDB at all), and Ysmir, a title that was once used as a general title for nordic kings, is given to the LDB by mortals

#

really doesn't prove anything in the end

#

LDB ain't talos and ain't a shezarrine

sand flume
#

you keep saying shezarrine but that applies specifically to shezarr who i am not talking about

cosmic thistle
#

Not a void ghost either

#

the LDB is just the LDB

#

the last dragonborn, nothing else because they are not required to be anything else

full sierra
#

Honestly I always found LDB-Shezzarine theories to make no sense. They would be more aligned with Akatosh than lorkhan if anything

sand flume
#

void ghost is the broad term for this, and theres a lot to suggest you are one because you literally act in talos' will ending the kalpic cycle, and you follow the tale of ysmir wulfharth to the letter

cosmic thistle
#

???? no????

#

One the Kalpic cycle was already ended

sand flume
#

killing alduin ensures hes never able to change his mind

#

you are talos' ensurance

cosmic thistle
#

Ok what

sand flume
#

alduin is meant to cause the kalpic cycle but instead betrayed that nature to conquer nirn, theres still a chance he gets bored of nirn and decides to monch it

primal bough
#

Who's to say Alduin can't come back? LDB didn't absorb his soul

cosmic thistle
#

Talos has no hand in the creation of dragonborns, that's Akatosh's whole thing

sand flume
#

yeah i dont deny that youre blessed by akatosh

#

killing alduin is also a goal of dragonborn

primal bough
#

Time and Space are 2 sides of the same coun though

sand flume
cosmic thistle
#

If anything it's Akatosh who doesn't want the Kalpa to end. So that's more to point against the idea you're a "void ghost"

full sierra
#

I always saw TLD as akatosh forgiving lorkhan. Alduin was made to destroy lorkhans creation, so by sending TLD to stop him from doing so, he’s ultimately forgiving lorkhan for what he done

sand flume
#

akatosh sends the dragonborn to punish alduin for betraying his nature, lorkhan the trickster (talos) uses this to his advantage and his void ghost ensures alduin is killed forever

cosmic thistle
#

See, that makes more sense then any idea the LDB is a void ghost, shezarrine or talos

full sierra
#

Tbh, yea

sand flume
cosmic thistle
#

Or Akatosh is just insane from all the times he has been broken and destroyed when mortals continue to do dragonbreaks

#

and doesn't fully know what he is doing anymore

sand flume
#

fam akatosh sent a dragonborn to kill alduin back in the merethic era he knew what he was doing

#

well not akatosh cause he didnt exist

#

yet

#

but AKHAT

primal bough
#

Aka-Tusk

sand flume
#

possibly

cosmic thistle
#

But the end point being, the LDB isn't a void ghost because it isn't part of the prophecy, it's never at all hinted in the game, and the LDB isn't required to be one because there is nothing really special about being a "void ghost" that is required to end alduin

sand flume
#

fam its literally hinted so much

cosmic thistle
#

Yea you can sit on a throne

#

and you get a name from mortals that was used for nord kings besides wulfharth

sand flume
#

what about your goals aligning PERFECTLY with talos'

you PERFECTLY following ysmir wulfharth's tale of a ghost of shor killing alduin

primal bough
#

You walk like Ysmir until you become Ysmir

weak solstice
#

did i miss htat

sand flume
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about how in the khajiiti its lorkhaj who kills alkhan

cosmic thistle
#

You're just inserting your own fanfiction into this because we have nothing on Talos having any goals. There is never stated to be a goal Talos is trying to achieve is the biggest flaw. You're making stuff up.

sand flume
sand flume
#

he clearly has a goal of protecting this world

cosmic thistle
#

I'm really not

sand flume
#

and a kalpa reset would break it

cosmic thistle
#

I'm pointing out every hole you've exposed. It's just really flimsy to make a claim around "LDB is a void ghost or part of Lorkhan or whatever" when there is absolutely not evidence to support it. Ysmir has been used by other beings besides void ghosts or shezarrines, shor's throne being empty is explained that Shor's form is too hard on mortals, in the end the LDB is one thing metaphysically

#

a dragonborn

#

that's it

sand flume
#

even when sheogoraths throne is empty you cannot sit in it until you begin to mantle him

cosmic thistle
#

that's all that's required

weak solstice
#

ok now i regret asking for a lore channel

primal bough
sand flume
#

a dragonborn is not all thats required because we've had many people who were "just dragonborn" and failed

#

see: miraak

cosmic thistle
#

Miraak never fought Alduin directly

sand flume
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he refused to

#

where you had to because your will forced you to

weak solstice
#

it is not the Dragonborn's goal to stop Alduin

primal bough
cosmic thistle
#

Miraak even tells you this straight up because he is more interested in becoming his own deity and doing the same thing Dagoth Ur did

sand flume
#

im not denying this

#

im saying dragonborn wasnt enough to make him kill alduin

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where you are compelled to

cosmic thistle
#

Miraak never "lost" to Alduin or failed to beat him, add in Alduin himself has no real interest in ending the Kalpa

sand flume
#

youre neglecting very obvious hints as well

Shor's own ghost then fought the Time-Eater on the spirit plane

  • Five Songs of King Wulfharth, "Old Knocker"

The songs tell us Alkhan was slain by Lorkhaj and his companions

  • The Wandering Spirits
#

ending the end of time is definitely a very lorkhan related topic

cosmic thistle
#

Reachmen also have a telling that Hircine fights alongside them when the world ends

#

is the LDB now Hircine too

#

These are myths, not everything is true, we've seen myths be wrong in the series before

sand flume
#

weve got two myths telling you the same thing

primal bough
#

Maybe, or maybe they're all true

sand flume
#

how talos' statue is seen about to (but not yet) stab into the head of the serpent, symbol of the ouroboros and cycles

#

and then in the same game this statue is structured as such, you kill the causer of the kalpic cycle

cosmic thistle
#

LDB is Hircine now

#

It's canon

#

my hints are the LDB can do a hunt and also Hircine isn't present fighting Alduin like Reachmen claim

sand flume
#

we havent seen the end of the world so we cant say that the reachmen are wrong

cosmic thistle
#

or maybe just maybe, the two myths are wrong especially given they're before skyrim and we can't trust everything mortals write

sand flume
#

why do you want to write them off as wrong when they match up so nicely with the rest of the information given to us?

cosmic thistle
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Because it's extreme straw grasping people have been doing for almost a decade now

#

the LDB is just the dragonborn, nothing else

sand flume
#

its not extreme, we have many hints

cosmic thistle
#

we have you can sit on a throne and myths written by mortals

sand flume
#

youre saying that the connection between talos' statue and your actions was just coincidence?

#

youre saying bethesda is so lazy that they couldnt be bothered to stop you from sitting in shors throne? where they purposely stopped you from sitting in sheogoraths until you were ready?

cosmic thistle
#

Talos's statue is again, made by mortals and clearly mimics other nord kings.

sand flume
#

but youre saying bethesda made all these hints for nothing right?

cosmic thistle
#

Hell, it looks nothing like Talos's face when you look up at it

sand flume
#

thats your argument

cosmic thistle
#

No I'm saying you're grasping at straws with weak points

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for something that absolutely does not make sense for the LDB to be

sand flume
#

when the greybeards hand the stormcrown to you and label you ysmir, the same as talos, it means nothing?

#

ysmir which is a title for kings defo, guess youre a king now

cosmic thistle
#

Ysmir again being the ancient title of nord kings that the Greybeards decided is now their's

#

probably due to Ysmir being given to powerful tongues

sand flume
#

old hroldan recognising you as hjalti, as tiber septim, but nooo hes just a crazy old ghost, maybe he can sense dragon souls for some reason?

modest helm
#

I will point out that we are told what Ysmir means in the first instance of it appearing

cosmic thistle
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Oh lord the ghost

modest helm
#

He took for himself a Cyrodilic name, Tiber Septim, and the Nordic Name of Kings, Ysmir, the Dragon of the North.
Straight from Pocket Guide

cosmic thistle
#

Ysmir is just stating you're the most powerful tongue because you rule over the rest

#

maybe the greybeards turned it into something more ceremonial after they became the only tongues but that really doesn't amount to much

frosty sentinel
#

wait what are you guys arguing about

cosmic thistle
#

The "LDB is talos/lorkhan" fan canon

full sierra
#

TLD being a shezzarine lol

frosty sentinel
#

wouldn't he be shor incarnate and not a shezarrine

sand flume
#

void ghost nodders

frosty sentinel
#

shezarrine is referring to imperial void ghosts

uncut hatch
frosty sentinel
#

enit?

modest helm
sand flume
cosmic thistle
#

Like, the way I view the Talos statue in Skyrim is the nords view Tiber Septim as an honorable warrior who stabs at snakes who slither and corrupt, or something like that. but in the end it's really just, not a good arguing point. Especially when it just looks nothing like other depictions of Talos like in Cyrodiil or on septims

sand flume
#

the thing that bugs me is that we have so many hints and you dont even consider the theory possible, im not asking you to consider it the full truth but i dont see how you can disregard it completely

cosmic thistle
#

It's basically just amounts to one culture having a different view on how a god looks

#

because a lot of it is just straw grasping in the end or myths just straight up being wrong.

sand flume
cosmic thistle
#

Like in Khajiit culture you said Lorkhaj fights Alkhan, the problem with that is Khajiit also recognize that Lorkhaj died and was corrupted into Namiira

sand flume
#

the fact that his sword is inches away from the head of the serpent

cosmic thistle
#

like in Khajiit mythology the entire creation story of Namiira was she was born in Lorkhaj's heart as a corruption that spread until he was killed

sand flume
#

the khajiit also state the lorkhaj was cursed to eternally wander nirni

frosty sentinel
#

are we arguing about cultural god mirrors existing?

#

because that's already known

#

why argue about that

sand flume
#

nah still on about void ghosts

frosty sentinel
#

wait what do void ghosts have to do with the talos statue

cosmic thistle
#

Alkhan is prophecized to come back but it was never said that Lorkhaj will defeat Alkhan again

#

only Lorkhaj and his companions defeated him once

#

if anything the myths we have from the Nord and Khajiit are PAST stories, meaning they already happened

sand flume
cosmic thistle
#

that's not the case now

#

Dragons aren't snakes is the thing

#

Nords know what snakes and dragons look like

#

this is my point, the argument for the LDB being a void ghost is flimsy

frosty sentinel
#

snake's usually representing lorkhan, right? and talos is lorkhan 2

sand flume
#

serpents wyrms and dragons have lots of connections in TES, but the point here is that the serpent is representative of the ouroboros

cosmic thistle
#

ouroboros is also not a dragon

frosty sentinel
#

serpent representing the ouroboros is more ra-gada thing

modest helm
#

Talos stabbing the serpent is a reference to Ysmir defeating Orkey. Orkey is the snake; Shor is the fox.

cosmic thistle
#

That's another point

frosty sentinel
#

sep the serpent n' everything

#

good point about orkey

cosmic thistle
#

Dragons have never been depicted as snakes in TES

#

even all the way back in 2

dusk timber
#

Yup.

Even the cut 3D model of a dragon was a European traditional 4 legged with wings dragon.

frosty sentinel
#

no please not the wyvern argument

keen briar
#

Bat Elves

frosty sentinel
#

nooo

keen briar
#

That is all

cosmic thistle
#

Echmer time

keen briar
#

scurries away into the night

frosty sentinel
#

IFW pls return

keen briar
#

Never.

cosmic thistle
#

like dragon designs in TES has been consistent since probably Redguard. The only european dragon looking deity is Peryite and he is a Daedra

frosty sentinel
#

you're the only one who understands me

sand flume