elder-scrolls-lore

[gaunt bear]

Think we can get a “Spear of Vivec” for an update to Ghosts of the Tribunal?

[raw grail]

It's called Muatra

I think they're done with Skyrim's CC tho

[gaunt bear]

I’m going to re-explain one of my ideas I had, and shared, a while back, if only for @plain cosmos ‘s sake:

During my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction, the Inquisition learn of an artifact that the Thalmor were pursuing: a large boulder that Uriel V brought back with him as a spoil of war and enshrined in a forgotten, by now, location. When the Inquisition, and Matthias (my Dragonborn) find the rock (which was what Uriel V referred to it as), got to it first, it split open, revealing an Akaviri trickster goddess that called herself Tamamo-no-Mae (the Nine-tailed Fox) who’d, apparently, been imprisoned in there for more than 5000 years. She’s way more free-spirited, and powerful than any Dovah (Matthias: Since the spirits in the fade refer to her as a trickster deity of mischief, lust, power, fortune, and not-lust-desire). She’s also quite playful, capricious, and even cruel at times, but she does her “cruel” tricks with a smile.

But it’s what she claims that keeps everyone on their toes: she claims to have “slept with Dagon and played in his lair”, “outfoxed the Great Hunter” (probably Hircine), and several other things. She also claims that she knows what it actually means to be Dragonborn, and intends to “groom” Matthias to “fit” (Matthias: I already know I’m not going to like what she’s got planned.)

Maxwell (*my Inquisitor): Tama-Chan, as she prefers to be called, also knows where several “others like (her)” are also imprisoned. This is dubious, at best, but at least we’ll look into this.

Matthias: Part of the reason why we’re suspicious about her has to do with one of the memories of her I found in the Fade: she likes to pass herself off as a friendly or helpful spirit who knows where the location of a powerful magical staff, which inevitably leads to a garbage dump, latrine pit, or sewer channel. More than one greedy or arrogant mage has ended up knee-deep in filth before Tama-Chan reveals her lie.

[gaunt bear]

Okay, I've got something new I'd like to share for the lore-heads to comment on:

Maxwell: This one required some double-checking before I was able to find out what it meant. Originally, our Intelligence thought that the Thalmor were after the Staff of Chaos (which didn't make sense since it was returned to Oblivion after it was used to defeat Toth during the Third Blight (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Third_Blight||)) but after some double-checking, it was discovered to be something more chilling: the Thalmor are after the Staff of Kios, the constellation associated with the Old God/Archdemon Zazikel (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Zazikel||), the Old God of Chaos. The only problem is that we don't know what the staff is capable of, but if the Thalmor want it, then it can't be good.

[lucid sundial]

Is there an Ayleidoon word for "Dragon"? EDIT: I searched it up. There currently isn't any in Ayleidoon. But Aldmeris language is not too different from Ayleidoon which the Ayleids got their language based from, and since Aka means "Dragon", then that might be it.

[gaunt bear]

Might be new-word-creation-time!

[pastel sorrel]

His Ehlnofex is AKHAT, so it's likely that or Aka.

[slate shoal]

if Vythur's last name is Vyrthur and his brother is Gelebor does that make him Gelebor Vyrthur

[pastel sorrel]

Vyrthur Vyrthurson

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/banghead-desk-westwing-exasperated-frustrated-gif-5390034

[limber juniper]

i wonder when some kind of technology form could return in TES universe. Don't get me wrong, i like dwemers and sotha sil. But this doesn't mean we could have a new tech priest cult about technology

How about to add a "guild of technology" focused entirelly on science?

[gaunt bear]

I’m doing a follow-up to something I wrote here a while back:

To General Tullius,

I’ve got an update on the Flame of the Giants, and I’m still having trouble believing it. The reason why the Vanishing Isle (where the Flame is being kept) is “is never in the same place twice” is because… it’s on the back of a giant sea turtle!!! Right now, it’s surfaced in the Sea of Ghosts, just off the coast of Dawnstar, and the island is dominated by an ancient Giant’s castle, which proves that the Giants of the previous kalpa (a corruption of the original term, meaning “Great Cycle”) were Waaay more civilized than the giants of today. Right now, there are scholars (some of them Altmer) hurrying to document everything they can find there, but the Inquisition and I are heading straight to the keep, where the Flame is being kept. Focusing on that, but awaiting any orders.

Matthias, the Last Dragonborn

[gaunt bear]

@plain cosmos and all the other lore-heads: So, what do you think?

[plain cosmos]

My Lore Beard is hung up.

I do like the idea of an island on the back of a seamonster though.

[lucid sundial]

I know many in Tamriel say Tiber Septim was a Nord while others say he was a Breton according to controversial and conflicting historical contexts in the Elder Scrolls lore. I know they're meant to be a mystery or meant to be some sort of "monkey truths" similar to how stories of Morrowind in TES lore written by Michael Kirkbride to be those types of things as if in real life, we're told stories of mythology or what not, but what if Tiber Septim was born to his parents being both a Nord and a Breton? Like a Nord father, and a Breton mother? What if he was born in High Rock, but raised in Skyrim? That's just my head cannon of this. What if Tiber Septim was a hybrid of Nord and Breton and since Bretons were descendants of Elves, would it solitify more of Talos being the 9th Divine?

[abstract ledge]

I’m thinking that Tiber septim is like aeliah renmus (who is imperial and redguard in appearance), and has both breton and nordic physical traits

[gaunt bear]

I've actually created something for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls that explains this contradiction:

Matthias (MY Dragonborn): I actually looked into this (via dreaming/The Fade) and it shows something really unusual. Tiber Septim was born on the southermost fringes of Atmora, (just between Atmora and Roscrea), but his grandfather wasn't too thrilled about his birth. In fact, his response to this was to put both Baby Hjalti and his mother into a boat and cast them adrift on the sea. However, due to Divine Father Akatosh, the boat was washed all the way to the Isles of Alcaire, where they settled.

[balmy salmon]

I lean towards the explanation that he was a Nord, I figure a Nord from Alcaire is more likely than a Breton with the name Hjalti Early-Beard.

Not foolproof, of course, because there are occasionally people of one race with the naming convention of another race, like Brand-Shei.

[vale oracle]

Who exactly is the Speaker, Listener, Silencer, Keeper in the Dark Brotherhood hierarchy?

[distant forge]

so are the draugr in skyrim and the draugr in morrowind bloodmoon meant to be the same? or are they different?

i heard there was a lot of changes between them

[balmy salmon]

I think they're meant to be the same, but the art style and lore changed somewhat. The Skaal in Bloodmoon claimed that Draugr were Nords who resorted to cannibalism and were consequently cursed with undeath, while Skyrim ignored that claim and decided to depict them with blue eyes instead of red.

I think it's also worth noting that the helmet on Draugr Lord Aesliip's model in Bloodmoon has an uncanny resemblance to the Ancient Nord and Yngol style helmets worn by Draugr in Skyrim.

I'm pretty sure they're meant to be the same, it's just that the art style had shifted by the time of Skyrim and Nord lore was expanded.

[heady wave]

In Bloodmoon's defense, there's no reason why this couldn't have been the case in Dragonborn too. The Nords on Solstheim are culturally notably different than their mainland counterparts and religious differences on their specters would've been a cool story snippet to expand on. I'm kinda curious why Beth didn't make them consistent.

(that wasn't a counterargument to you specifically i just wanted to throw 2 cents in that i think it was a dumb change, even if it was stylistically consistent with the base game)

[balmy salmon]

It seems like Solstheim was greatly overhauled when Bethesda returned to it in Dragonborn.

Bloodmoon didn't have anything obviously related to the Dragon Cult- the Skaal were simply depicted as an isolated band of Nords with their own unique beliefs- and it didn't have any Dwemer ruins.

[heady wave]

Yeah. I'd like to chalk it down to that not being part of the "TES Bible" they have behind the scenes, either because it was so small to keep consistent or it was filler info they never liked anyway.

[vale oracle]

In Skyrim, draugrs are undead Nordic warriors,and I think they have been cursed for so for treachery
About Morrowind, I dont know, I havent played that part yet.

[glacial scarab]

Draugr in TES5 is a mix of Dragon Cult returning and tomb guard.
Draugr in Bloodmoon was said to be something like Wendigos.

TES5 changed a lot of Nord stuff so any change would've been affecting Solsthiem.

[glacial scarab]

Dwemer ruins from memory do have an attempt of going they were hidden before and are open in the fourth era.

One was under the sea because it sunk itself
Another had to be dug up
And the last one was frozen over

[pastel sorrel]

The Dwemer ruins were unearthed by Red Year, note

[sharp lantern]

Listener is the de-facto head of the organisation outside the Night Mother and Sithis. The Listener gives orders to the Speakers, and the Speakers in turn have the Silencers working directly under them.

The Keeper is more of a ceremonial role outside the direct hierarchy; solely tasked with the preservation of the Night Mother.

[tropic wolf]

I hope the lore is good in the next game at least. My hope is kinda dead.

[proven moss]

tbh, it's better to have low/no expectations than high/impossible expectations

More room to be impressed. 😜

[vestal jolt]

NGL even though dwemer have been an intriguing mystery for the longest time, I feel more invest in Psijiic order

[gaunt bear]

@plain cosmos I’m tying this loose end up:

To General Tullius,

The turtle that’s carrying the Vanishing Isle has dove back under the water, but our mission wasn’t in vain, because we now have the Flame of the Giants!: It’s a crystal globe, roughly the size of a human hand, where the last ember of said flame is kept, which, itself, was attached to a handle of unknown metal.

I was able to bear witness to the destructive power of the Flame firsthand. The Thalmor Agent whom was pursuing it accidentally touched the crystal globe and was utterly consumed by the flame in seconds, not even leaving ashes. It’s now being kept in Skyhold’s Mage’s Tower where it’s being carefully studied.

The real treasure of the Vanishing Isle wasn’t the Flame, but the ancient giant schemas on both smithing and enchanting. It’ll take some time to translate, but I can already tell they hold secrets that even the Dwemer were unaware of.

Matthias, the Last Dragonborn.

[plain cosmos]

Seems solid enough. Clunky modern formatting, as we generally don't use more than two commas in a sentence, but it's more fitting for classical English writing. So that's fine.

[heady wave]

just wait until he breaks out the legendary em-comma, —,

[slate shoal]

I hope we at least get 1 snow elf book

[heady wave]

Who do you all feel like has suffered the worst character assassination in TES? Only because I'm not well-versed enough, I can't really recall many reoccuring characters who've suffered a degraded character as the games or novels went on (though I suppose public opinion also counts, not just in the games themselves). But the thought hit me and I was curious what others think.

[lucid sundial]

Ok, hear me out. I know this may sound controversial , but what if the Dwemer actually looks like Dark Elves, but with no red eyes and just beards, and the way Azura cursed the Chinmer for the Tribunal's transgressions is just her way of demonizing the Chinmer into demonized versions of the Dwemer and their red eyes are as red as devilish hell or as hellish as the heart of Lorkhan in the eyes of elf kind?

[uncut hatch]

Technically the curse was meant for the Tribunal. For the Dunmer it was just a cosmetic change

Like it didn't really give them any downsides beyond a color change. If anything it gave them extra resistance to fire and ash which would help them later

Also Azura herself looks like a Dunmer. Many theorize she gave them a form similar to her.

[heady wave]

I think Azura chooses whatever she wishes to look like. In Daggerfall she was a human woman with the Azurite Eyes (seen again in Online). The Khajiit Azurah has a human, elf and Khajiit form.

[heady wave]

That would be neat, but we see what the Dwemer look like in Morrowind. He's diseased, but if anything Bagarn fits the generic fantasy Dwarf style (portly, large beard). That is assuming that the spider legs he's wearing isn't indicitive of his actual height.

[lucid sundial]

Yeah, but that Dwemer had corpus disease and his beard seemed blue.

[lucid sundial]

Yes, she is a Daedric Prince. They choose any form whenever they like. Daedric Princes are known to shapeshift, but have kept persistent appearances we see in Elder Scrolls games to be their preferred appearance.

[heady wave]

I noted that. But his beard is a weird shade is yellow.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:MW-creature-Yagrum_Bagarn.jpg

Or gray if that's the torchlight messing with me. Man MW had some weird af models, doesn't help Beth randomly updated a handful of them when Tribunal came out.

[lucid sundial]

His beard isn't supposed to be blue?

[uncut hatch]

True but even so she chose to take the dunmer like form in later games so i very much doubt she meant the color change to be demonic or twisted

Also a bunch of daedric lore from Daggerfall was retconned in later games so not sure if that still holds.
Heck half of them don't even act the same in later games

[pastel sorrel]

It's not blue, the lighting is

see then Legends

[pastel sorrel]

That's not what the curse is or does. We've seen all three Good Daedra with that appearance

The curse was principally aimed at the Tribunal, as no matter where they looked among their people, they would see the dark skin and red eyes of the gods they betrayed

The people themselves took it in stride (Sotha Sil's credited with helping the new Dunmer to accept their changed forms), they were already the Chimer, they already sought to be different from their Altmeri origins

And they were already daedrophilic; what is demonization to someone who likes demons?

[balmy salmon]

I've hypothesized that it wasn't Azura that cursed them, and when she blamed the Tribunal for the Chimer becoming the Dunmer she was being literal- that messing with the Heart of Lorkhan to make themselves gods had an unexpected side effect of altering the Chimer.

[heady wave]

The Daggerfall point was low-hanging fruit but it's corroborated by some of Online's Khajiit lore that it's "A" phase, if you like Online/buy into it. Didn't she only really appear as an Elf in Morrowind? I think it's worthwhile to note her statues may hold some bias, the one in Skyrim was built by Dark Elves, while the one in Cyrodiil is humanoid (both original and Remastered I think?).

[uncut hatch]

Is it humanoid tho? It looks the same as Morrowind and Skyrim to me

[uncut hatch]

I personally think a lot of people just misinterpret what the curse was. She didn't curse the entire race as punishment for the what the tribunal did. She punished the tribunal by changing the appearance of their race to serve as a reminder that they'll always be 'false gods'

Like it's only a curse in the tribunal's eyes, to the rest it was just a color change.

But the idea that messing with the lorkhan heart is what changed them all is pretty interesting too

[strong bramble]

Is there an in universe explanation for why molag bal looks different in oblivion vs the games that came after?

[uncut hatch]

The devs had a unspoken rule while making Oblivion that everything must look utterly hideous. It's why Herma Mora looks like a Potato as well

But jokes aside it's likely just an artstyle change thing. The remaster actually makes them look closer to their later counterparts

[strong bramble]

I'm aware. I was just asking if there was a reason for it in the lore.

[uncut hatch]

Well lore wise daedric princes can choose to look however they want.

[balmy salmon]

Molag Bal wanted to look good for Vivec

[proven moss]

Molag Bal's design from Morrowind and Oblivion is his best design

[slate shoal]

here he's gray with a silvery shimmer; it reminds me of the Maormer or the Betrayed somewhat

[slate shoal]

Daedric Princes don't have to conform to an appearance, so they tend to change (which is ironic)

for example, in a Nordic story Mora appears to Ysgramor as a Hare iirc

[steady ginkgo]

Replying late, but if we also think about the divines, different cultures and races a lot of the time straight up worship the same gods but say they have (slightly) different names and described appearances, but are the same gods, could be something similar, you’re seeing Deadra and stuff from a different persons perspective in a different time and place depending on which game you’re playing

That’s my lore cope, but in reality probably just evolving artistic choices

[strong bramble]

Of course

[woeful gyro]

I mean, if you want a lore cope an easier one is that they just get bored and frequently change appearance on a whim

[balmy salmon]

Look at Boethiah. Male in some games, female in others, and in at least one text I know of, is referred to with alternating pronouns.

[woeful gyro]

Is there any way to actually permanently kill any of the daedra?

[proven moss]

No, death isn't on the table for them. They'll always return from the waters of Oblivion

[woeful gyro]

What if you hit one of them with the Dragonrend shout? Dragons are ageless, timeless, undying beings that don’t have a chronological beginning or end. Dragonrend was created by mortals to force dragons to understand mortality and finitude, like making a calculator divide by zero. It is basically the concept of mortality physically imposed upon reality via thu’um hax, so while it was created as a sort of silver bullet against dragons, I wonder if in theory it could be effective against the daedra as well, as they are also eternal beings that shouldn’t have a concept of death or ending

[proven moss]

It's possible Dragonrend might be effective against them. But Dragonrend doesn't kill. It just inflicts suffering on dragons (and maybe daedra).

[woeful gyro]

Dragonrend doesn’t kill on its own but could it temporarily reduce a daedra to a state where it could hypothetically be killed by another means?

[uncut hatch]

You can technically defeat them but they'll just be reborn back in Oblivion. Only way you could theoretically kill a daedra is blocking their soul in some way which considering their immense size is just not possible

Also dragons maybe ageless but they are still technically mortal creatures that can be killed. They don't quite compare to Daedra. They're more like mini aedras

[balmy salmon]

The matter comes down to the definition of "death". Daedra cannot be killed in the sense that when their physical body is cut down, their equivalent of a soul (sometimes called an animus or vestige) returns to their home plane of Oblivion, where a new body is formed around them from raw creatia.

ESO discusses the possibility that if a Daedra found themselves disembodied in Aetherius, their soul would be unable to return to Oblivion to form a new body.

In fact there was an entire questline centered around that theory, that since the player character has a "vestige" in place of their soul and can reform like Daedra, a villain got the idea to lure you into Aetherius to try and permanently trap you.

[gaunt bear]

@uncut hatch I’ve got a new part for Serana’s experiments with Dovahkiin blood:

Mind still focused on her first test of Dovahkiin blood, Serana made her way to the Dragonborn’s bed (with him passed out drunk from mead mixed with sleeping tree sap) with a special knife in hand. Instead of going for the neck, she went for an upper arm. But what came out wasn’t blood in the usual sense.

Instead of said blood flowing out, something dark red oozed out, slower than molasses, thick and gloopy. She knew that there would be the residues of healing, Magicka, and stamina potions in said blood, but this was more than what she expected. Also, just at the edge of her sight, she thought she could see several different colors flash briefly before fading out.

I’ll probably get a next part done after work tomorrow, but I’d like some opinions on what I’ve got down so far.

[pastel sorrel]

There's no indication it does anything to them. You're not exactly speaking their language and you can literally use it on non-dragon targets ingame to see it does nothing.

[distant forge]

is there a lore explanation why the fighters guild isn't present in skyrim?

ik why the mage guild isnt, they were disbanded, but nothing said that the fighters guild was shutdown either, so they should still be operating by the fourth era

[uncut hatch]

Skyrim has the companions which most see as an alternative to the FG. No need to create something that essentially serves a similar purpose

"Tamriel's Fighters Guild has no presence in Skyrim. Instead, warriors seeking adventure and kinship may join the Companions, in Whiterun."
-- The loading screens

[pastel sorrel]

None, they're simply not present out there anymore in TES5's time.

Could be any number of reasons, such as the breakdown of Imperial infrastructure and rise of local nationalism and traditions (ironically far removed from their origins)

[distant forge]

is that a real loading screen?

[strong bramble]

So we know that morrowind's glass armor is the dunmer style and skyrim's is the altmer style, but what about oblivion remastered? What style is the glass armor in cyrodiil?

[pastel sorrel]

Looks more Imperialized Altmeri to my eyes

It's Cyrodiil, it's a cultural melting pot, so a lot of the designs are probably influenced by multiple other groups

[strong bramble]

Yeah true. And with the layered plates it looks slightly akaviri as well

[pastel sorrel]

especially since also with asset reuse some stuff's gotta be able to pull double duty

the "Elven" equipment as an example since you can find multiple different elven groups using it despite being presumably Ayleid in design

[strong bramble]

That's one thing I'd love to see in elder scrolls 6. Different cultural variants of the same armor sets

Assuming the regular materials return like glass, ebony, elven, and others.

Mehrunes dagon styled daedric and molag bal styled daedric in the same game would be awesome

[uncut hatch]

Yes

[uncut hatch]

Mountain Dew

[strong bramble]

Baja blast!

[uncut hatch]

The remaster atleast tries making it look decent. The og was an abomination

[woeful gyro]

I mean, if Dragonrend is the essence of mortality then using it against mortals wouldn’t do much

As far as it not being their language goes, I’m not sure if that argument really works, since you can use the thu’um on targets who don’t also speak it

[pastel sorrel]

... Again, you can literally test it ingame and see that it does nothing

there's more targets than just mortals and dragons in TES5

Only dragons are affected.

It's forcing them to understand mortality in their way.

[woeful gyro]

Alright alright I guess I was wrong

[clever goblet]

Mountain Dew Armor

[robust lintel]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTZjMDliOTUyODhsaGx5cHA0OGhsMW80b3R6ZHYyZHRud2R3NHVxd3k1c2Rmcm1pMSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9cw/JtGzDCMTccqmBEQzkA/giphy.gif

[green plinth]

Strongest light armour for sneaking. Looks like a glowing lime.

[raw grail]

ESO was closest to doing that great I think

[uncut hatch]

I was thinking this the other day. IF TES:VI was set in Hammerfell and High Rock, it would be awesome to see all armours and weapons in both provinces styles to make the items in the game even more interesting and unique. Being able to or having to learn crafting in both styles too.

[strong bramble]

Heck even styles of armor that aren't from high rock or hammerfell. I'd love to roam around the alik'r desert in dunmeri chitin armor. Maybe made from local fauna

[balmy salmon]

More armor variants is always great, and I definitely would like to see multiple cultures' armors.

[strong bramble]

So for an evil hero of kvatch, who worships all manner of daedra, what would be the most fitting way to play the main quest? Getting Baurus and Jauffre killed? Would it be to further their understanding of the mythic dawn and daedra in general? I need a justification to play the main quest as an evil character.

[balmy salmon]

The world isn't Mehrunes Dagon's to destroy.

[strong bramble]

Oh perfect!

Like stopping the end of the world so that I can further my evil agenda!

[steel osprey]

hey is there a reason we don't just say 'tuesday' or 'october' or any of the normal months or days in elder scrolls? like why is it morndas, 1st of heartfire

[ocean wraith]

Simply put, its a different world. Its the way they tell time/dates in the elder scrolls world

[steel osprey]

whats the equivalent to each day and month, like is there an order to them

[pastel sorrel]

They do actually call some of the days the same at times, but largely it's a fictional world with its own stuff going on,

[pastel sorrel]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Calendar

This page presents them a little more visually https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Calendar

[mint osprey]

If you interested, English language used to have more meaningfull names for months
https://www.wuffings.co.uk/index.php/wuffing-resources/the-old-english-calendar/

[steel osprey]

AH

sorry, you scared me there drac

[mint osprey]

What is used now are roman names of months. So since Elder Scrolls is a different world it makes sense that they use names that are meaningfull for them instead of roman names, related to roman language and mythology

[limber juniper]

I wonder, do we have other continents outside tamriel that isn't Atmora, Akavir, or Yokunda?

[proven moss]

Pyandonea, home of the Maomer. Although this is described more as a series of islands.

Aldmeris is sometimes put forward. This is the homeland of the elves. But in-game sources suggest it is not a physical place, or suggest that Aldmeris is in fact Tamriel.

There is also (maybe) a extremely mysterious place mentioned known as Lyg.

[limber juniper]

oh what is Lyg? First time i've heard before
Yeah i've heard of Pyandonea, i can see a possible expansion set in that place. Maormer are indeed sea barbarians/pirates.

[proven moss]

Not really much known about it. It's main mention comes from The Mythic Dawn Commentaries vol. 4, where it is called "the domain of the Upstart who vanishes" and was where Mehrunes Dagon was forged by the Magne Ge. Mehrunes Dagon destroys Lyg, overthrowing it's Dreugh masters, and then leads the armies of the Magne Ge to destroy other lands.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/mythic-dawn-commentaries-vol-4

More here:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lyg

[limber juniper]

i see so is just a missing continent. I feel could be potential for telling new stories in these abandoned areas.

[slate shoal]

thinking about how the nords never really improved as a people after their beginning as a bloodthirsty folk kind of makes it hard to feel positive things about them

even in 4e they still kill and genocide and take land

[balmy salmon]

The Adversarial Spirits doesn't mention Lyg by name, but does mention Mehrunes Dagon's imprisonment by Molag Bal and escape, which considering the latter's role as the chief of the Dreugh, it's quite possible that this refers to the same incident that Mankar Camoran described.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Adversarial_Spirits

[slate shoal]

snow elf metal continues to be bronze and their stone marble we praise Auri-El for this knowledge

[balmy salmon]

The Reach is a weird situation because the Nords have lived in the Reach since the days of the Dragon Cult.

The Nords even briefly conquered Markarth from the Dwemer at one point.

[slate shoal]

at least this time they have more ecidence for a claim there

[worldly gate]

I’m kinda intrigued about the western reach and the relocation of Orsinium

[clever goblet]

It shall soon be sacked…again

[worldly gate]

Ya know what’s a forgotten Guild

[pastel sorrel]

If you know the answer to that it's not forgotten innit

[worldly gate]

I been doing research cuz I was working on a mod

[balmy salmon]

Orsinium is interesting because based on where exactly it is between Skyrim and Hammerfell, it could serve as a Empire controlled thoroughfare between High Rock and Cyrodiil

I also find it interesting that the Empire let Orcs set up the kingdom of Bloodfall in Colovia.

[worldly gate]

Didn’t the empire save the orcs from the sacking in the 4th era?

Orcs growing in power is cool to see. My fav race in elder scrolls

Bloodfall Queen interesting

Actually @balmy salmon I wonder where in Colovia the town of rivercrest is located

[green plinth]

It is interesting to see how she interacts with stronghold orcs

[worldly gate]

I always think about joining Stormcloaks until I realize the empire didn’t hesitate to fight Alduin in the intro and protect the people of the town.

[ocean wraith]

Fair point, for me, the legion is more organized and it makes the autism happy lmaooooo

[worldly gate]

Shocker The chat moderator bot can’t even do its job properly

Ulfric is unfair to the other races he doesn’t even let Argonians live in the city

[lone saddle]

If you have something you would like to report to us, you can message us @soft rampart

[worldly gate]

I figured out the wording and removed the word no point in wasting time

[lone saddle]

Ooooh okay got it. I think I misunderstood lol.

[worldly gate]

I used the word that describes people who don’t particularly like other ethnic groups to describe Ulfric

[lone saddle]

Yeah. It was added to the block list a while back when the ghoul update for 76 came out. There were some pretty political arguments going on so the word was blocked to cut down on them.

[worldly gate]

The PG13 rule doesn’t even make sense

Are any of the games in this server even PG13?

[lone saddle]

It's a partnered Discord, so the server has it's own rating.

[worldly gate]

Gotcha that actually makes sense

[quick fulcrum]

Skyrim literally allows for decapitation

[worldly gate]

That’s what I meant.

There’s a guild for people who sell themselves

Forced servants

Assassins

Fallouts also got some ridiculousness lmao

If it’s officially partnered discord has some weird rules

[quick fulcrum]

There's Eggsual harassment in Morrowind

[quick fulcrum]

I just forgot that's basically the intro cutscene too-

[worldly gate]

I do enjoy how Bethesdas games are somewhat progressive yet realistic in its interpretation of people

[quick fulcrum]

I wish there was more interactions between imperials and stormcloaks

They talk abt eachother, but rarely actually communicate

Besides in whiterun

[worldly gate]

Same

[quick fulcrum]

What actually is TES6?

[worldly gate]

Probably be high rock and hammerfell. I’m assuming we are gonna see the Dominion as the main enemy and work with the empire to recruit the orcs, Bretons and Redguard back into the empire

[quick fulcrum]

I wish we'd have a prequel to when the altmer were prominent and tamriel was still new

I don't want a rehash of daggerfall or the redguard

[green plinth]

Hammerfell seems the most likely imo. The Redguard have their swords power and it is quite important for the lore.

[raw grail]

Not really, other pg13 servers allow swears

Obviously every server can moderate as it sees fit but I'm part of several partnered pg13 servers which allow swears and have for years without issue

[lone saddle]

Well this one doesn't 🙂

[raw grail]

Yeah, I'm just saying it being a swearless server is objectively not a partnered requirement

[lone saddle]

I suppose that's fair. I can't pretend to know what all they signed on for or what's required. But rules is rules, and I'm sure that it's for a good reason.

[raw grail]

Ikr? It doesn't always do perfectly but it's cool to see like, orcs humanized and handled in nuanced ways

[raw grail]

I'm not so confident but it's not my server to decide what's good for it so

[raw grail]

Yeah, we see a bit more in Riften but that's about it

[quick fulcrum]

Strange because Bethesda isn't exactly clean of profanity 😭

[raw grail]

And it's really hard to talk about a game whose secondary conflict is about racial superiority on multiple sides when you can't call it how it is

[quick fulcrum]

I find the environment of this server strangely corporate and dystopian, it's kind of counter-intuitive, a community thrives off discussions and memes,

Without those, it typically burns out

[raw grail]

There's a reason I come here so infrequently...

I enjoy talking about TES enough I still make the occasional stop by but once it starts becoming hard to talk about things because of the filter I get frustrated and stop again

[quick fulcrum]

Where do you usually spend your time when discussing Elder Scrolls?

[raw grail]

r/Skyrim discord server, UESP discord server, and the Imperial Library discord server

I'm most frequently in the r/Skyrim discord server, which is partnered, pg13, and allows swears and is the one I was thinking of when saying it's not a requirement of the partnered program

I wouldn't encourage people to stop talking in any of the TES servers, they all have their own strengths, like this one technically having official Bethesda support present. We often direct people here when they'd find more use here

Whichever set of servers ends up suiting your interests and needs is the way to go

I'm mostly lore oriented so all my frequent servers lean that way

[quick fulcrum]

Any servers that are good for Morrowind discussion?

[raw grail]

I don't know... I think there's an official Morrowind server but I'm not there and I've heard it's not that active

[quick fulcrum]

I've yet to find it

[raw grail]

Well, not official. I meant dedicated

[quick fulcrum]

Ohhh

[raw grail]

I'll check out our server recommendations in r/Skyrim rq

[quick fulcrum]

This message timer is absolutely abysmal and spooky

[raw grail]

Got it. Want a DM?

[quick fulcrum]

Sure

[cosmic thistle]

UESP is a good one for TES discussions, lore room is always active for instance

[raw grail]

TIL suits my needs and preferences more but the UESP server is good yeah

[quick fulcrum]

Goodbye

[signal tapir]

[lone saddle]

Please do not dodge the curse filter. This includes images. Also do not tag moderator unless it is an emergency.

[balmy salmon]

The old Bethesda forums were like this too, pretty stringent about rules.

I find it preferable over the Reddit model where the power-tripping moderators steer the community, all while resorting to juvenile mockery and belittlement whenever they use their mod authority.

[pastel sorrel]

I mean, being corporate doesn't preclude powertripping mods any more than not being corporate encourages them

That depends on said corporation, just as with any such platform or community.

I have seen official places with bad management. I've worked there even.

[worldly gate]

Yea it’s annoying

I kinda miss the slavery I think Bethesda missed by making it abolished by Oblivion. Kinda jarring to see and interesting.

I remember my first time seeing the workers in Morrowind not
Realizing they were slaves. Then attempting to free them.

[pastel sorrel]

I mean, there's very much ongoing slavery in ESO and Helseth abolishing it ties into the Imperial takeover of Morrowind's political structure (his very role there as king was as an Imperial subject)

It's probably been un-abolished since Red Year

I do agree, this sorta thing can be overly strict and lose the intended soul of the experience, and it can often be reasonably articulated why it's mucking up. I just don't think that's what's going on in this specific instance.

[uncut hatch]

Nah there's no mention of it ever coming back. Helseth pretty much destroyed the whole buisness inside out.
And especially after the Argonian war it's probably gone forever

Smaller instances may still exist but on the whole it's likely never coming back

[pastel sorrel]

We barely know anything about what's going on in Morrowind post-Red Year

We're talking about something that was a foundation of their culture for millennia

[uncut hatch]

Nah iirc we know Redoran is now the dominant House in MW no?

And they didn't like Slavery. Doubt they'll let it be brought back in full force after everything that happened

[pastel sorrel]

Redoran had slaves too, they're just not Telvanni about it.

They're less inclined, not opposed

[uncut hatch]

Also if slavery really was back you'd expect atleast Neloth to have a bunch no? He's Telvanni after all.
But no he pays his servants and hires them like normal workers

[pastel sorrel]

He has literally no reason to care about the law

[uncut hatch]

Exactly. Yet he has no slaves

[pastel sorrel]

Which is either a personal change on his part, or it's because he can't source anyone worth the while from mere slaves

he's on Solstheim. It's not exactly booming business out there.

[uncut hatch]

But. Most of the servants he hires are for menial tasks like tea or taking care of his house

His personal assistant does need more cander but he hires all of them normally

We don't know for sure ofcourse but from what we see across Solstheim doesn't really point to slavery being a big thing any more.

[pastel sorrel]

Again, where would he be sourcing slaves from all the way out there? He doesn't necessarily pay them because he wants to. Slave trade would still go on regardless of legality, it would just be driven more underground. It's more probable that trade's been severely cut down by the An-Xileel efforts down south (and Elsweyr is Dominion territory now)

So the option is either enslave your few fellow people on the island and have to deal with that personally, or just hire people normally unless and until it's more convenient to use slaves again.

[uncut hatch]

That's what I'm saying tho. It's likely been driven underground to more smaller instances but i doubt it's as open and widespread as it was back in the olden days

[pastel sorrel]

I don't think it's driven underground at all, is my point. The Ashlanders wouldn't have any reason to obey Helseth's orders, and they're who took back over the cultural aspects of the Dunmer.

It's just harder since you gotta push through more hostile forces.

[uncut hatch]

Ashlanders could be trouble. True.
Although I'm not sure how well they faired after the Oblivion crisis and red year

[pastel sorrel]

Probably pretty well

post-Red Year was where they took over, and they're used to the ash.

[uncut hatch]

Oh and the Argonian war too

Then they're probably still practicing it in full scale

But I'd reckon official areas under control of the Houses aren't doing it openly anymore

Redoran especially and they're the dominant House in MW now

Also are the argonian raids still going on?

[pastel sorrel]

yes

and they push up a good ways north sometimes

[uncut hatch]

That should also make it even harder then

[pastel sorrel]

They'd have no reason to hide it and every reason to cast off the abolishment

Hlaalu was utterly disgraced and Imperial elements in general were excised

[uncut hatch]

Then why don't we see any semblence of it in Raven Rock?

[pastel sorrel]

Probably because they barely have the people and resources overall to do what they're already doing, let alone pay for / run a slave trade? They're trying to feed themselves, managing a whole 'nother class of people would break them before they could profit.

[uncut hatch]

Well tbf Hlaalu themselves were like one of the biggest slave owners. They just maintained a front that they hated it

[uncut hatch]

But. No one even mentions it at all?

[pastel sorrel]

Why would they need to mention it

[uncut hatch]

We get so much history dialogue but nothing about slavery?

[pastel sorrel]

We get relatively little dialogue, you're sorely overstating how much we know about Morrowind's status

It was stuff from two centuries prior and Raven Rock was an Imperial colony for the longest time. It's a backwater with basically no aid from the mainlands

[uncut hatch]

It's current status yes. But like they talk about It's history before everything went to hell a lot.

The argonian war in general is mentioned very little. They talk about the Oblivion crisis a lot instead

Tho i suppose you're right. We don't have enough info to make assumptions how well or bad the slave trade is in central MW

[pastel sorrel]

They talk about Raven Rock's history, we know relatively little about what's going on on either mainland after Red Year besides that they've retvrned to tradition

[uncut hatch]

Btw yeah i was referring to that based on what i read in this book cos it says the town was actually performing well until a couple years ago
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:History_of_Raven_Rock

Also hey. I just realized. We managed to have a discussion about slavery without the mods cracking down on us. How bout' that

So what was it with the discussion before us saying you can't discuss it well enough

[sharp lantern]

Slavery was uncommon in Hlaalu territory.

[uncut hatch]

Their official territory yeah. But also Dren plantation existed.

[sharp lantern]

Uncommon =/= nonexistant.

[uncut hatch]

Fair enough

[worldly gate]

I wish we saw Morrowind in Skyrim beyond Solestiem

Black light mainly

The city sounds so grand when described in Skyrim

[balmy salmon]

Hlaalu was never monolithic. In TES III there was a lot of division over what direction they should go.

Some wanted to go with Orvas Dren and his vision of an outlander free Morrowind, others like his brother and niece opposed him. On the mainland, Helseth shook up Morrowind and House Hlaalu because he was steering things in a very different direction than his predecessor.

[sharp lantern]

Most of the Hlaalu was on the pro-Empire side - Orvas was an outlier and an outright supporter of Dagoth Ur.

[green plinth]

Were they a sleeper?

[sharp lantern]

He seems to have been fully aware.

As said, he strongly deviates from typical Hlaalu ways.

[worldly gate]

We should see House Redoran bring Morrowind back to greatness

[balmy sluice]

telvanni >

[balmy salmon]

He was an opportunist who hated both the Tribunal and Empire. If you succeed in persuading him to tell his two toadies on the Hlaalu council to support you for Hlaalu Hortator, he'll mention Dagoth Ur's offer and admit that he has no problems with playing multiple sides.

[balmy sluice]

brad redoran: tryhards who want to be cool and make morrowind go back in time

chad telvanni: already cool and great, dunmer LYFE, not even trying just being

mushroom castles and peak dunmer magicka

[worldly gate]

Nah we gotta see Redoran merk the Argonians and conquer them. The Redoran Dynasty

[balmy sluice]

sorry saxhleel are way more badass rn

an xileel I mean

[worldly gate]

Nope the Redoran guard are goated they shoulda invaded Windhelm during the civil war

[worldly gate]

Didn’t Vivec change his gender?

Or am I misremembering old lore.

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/obi-wan-confusion-gif-10824788

[worldly gate]

I coulda sworn there was an old lore book where he does weird stuff

[pastel sorrel]

Principally C0DA is when he officially transitions, but beforehand he wore his intersex and sometimes genderfluid nature on his sleeve for his own purposes (filling in Mephala's spot etc.)

His (supposed) marriage to Molag Bal and resulting (supposed) children, for instance.

[worldly gate]

Thank you I remembered that vaguely

[pastel sorrel]

General idea is he never really accepted his female half until then beyond as a tool. He had his own personal hangups.

[green plinth]

I don't think Vivec understand's their own gender

[worldly gate]

Vivec refers to themselves as He

[cosmic thistle]

Yea Vivec is canonically intersex but still refers to himself as he, which is actually not uncommon for some intersex or non-binary folk. I speak from experience, I'm genderfluid and often change mainly between he/they

I don't mind others like she/it/etc etc but it's not uncommon for folks like me to just use a specific one

[raw grail]

Most people don't, really some struggle with it more ofc

A lot of people just don't approach gender from a place of exploration and understanding, even their own. It's becoming more common (imo fortunately)

[green plinth]

We mere mortals can not comprehend his actual pronouns

[worldly gate]

Nah it’s a he that’s literally beyond clear

[gaunt bear]

I've got something planned for Vivec in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction: During the Vvardenfel Crisis, the 5th Blight spills over into Morrowind, causing all kinds of trouble (such as the Assassinate the Telvanni Councilors mission becoming the Sterilize the Blight among the Telvanni Councilors (but the end result is basically the same). During the mission to obtain Wraithguard, Tarin (MY Nerevarine) forgives Vivec because Indoril Nerevar's Death was part of the Dragon Break that would eventually become known as the Battle/Disaster of Red Mountain, and after Dagoth Ur's final defeat, Vivec was sentenced to join the Grey Wardens, and his expertise helped provide an edge during the final battle with the Archdemon. Later, when the Grey Wardens began feeling the Calling, Vivec's previous existance as a partial-divinity (i'm no expert on such things) reveals that something about said Calling "feels off". While I don't want to spoil too much, I can confirm that Vivec will not live past the battle of Adamant Fortress.

[raw grail]

Fr

[worldly gate]

Don’t really matter tho I killed
Th/em

Mad I broke into his temple and slaughtered him

[raw grail]

Until the end of C0DA/Sermon 37, anyways

[worldly gate]

My headcanon is the Nevarine killed Vivec

I’d want revenge in my reincarnation

Only person I think canonically can’t die in morrowind or that death was retconned is Neloth I remember assassinating him

I assume they gonna do a dragon break event for the civil war but I’d rather them just say Ulfric lost and the Dragonborn never intervened

[cosmic thistle]

There's already an explanation in the game for how the stormcloaks lose. The Empire is building up a force behind Pale Pass, the legion forces in skyrim are currently mostly locals that were recruited much like how the stormcloaks are locals that were recruited, Pale Pass is currently impassable due to an avalanche caused by the seasonal weather but the empire is working on clearing it up.

It's stated if the Stormcloaks take Falkreath and inhabit Fort Neugrad
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Stormcloak_Missive_(Fort_Neugrad)

Stormcloaks don't have the manpower, especially after barely winning against the imperials in the civil war and the Empire never acknowledges the independence so the war isn't actually over if the stormcloaks take hold of all the holds. Then you have issues like the Silver-bloods losing their control over the Forsworn regardless of your choice in Escape from Cidhna mine because it either ends with the king dying creating a Martyr especially since it's in public or them rallying behind the king. Further made worse when the silver-bloods are very open about turning the reachmen into a slave caste. So it could end with them fighting combatants on two fronts now.

You also have that the entire point of the Dark Brotherhood questline is the Brotherhood being hired to frame the stormcloaks for the assassination of the Emperor, the Penitus Oculatus also have no reason to believe why it wasn't the stormcloaks who hired the DB either since they only found where the DB are, not who was planning the assassination of the Emperor and Commander Maro who knew the most also didn't actually know who hired the DB https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Incriminating_Letter_(DB)

also the Imperial forces aren't completely erradicated in Skyrim if the stormcloaks win meaning the remaining forces can fight a guerilla warfare campaign because again, it's locals, they know the terrain

I know too much on this because I used to debate it on the bethesda forums to exhaustion lmao

Ofc not saying this isn't like, fully what's going to be how they write it off just speculation based off of in-game evidence

(the DB questline is also possibly settled by the fact we don't eliminate every member of the brotherhood nor destroy the night mother so the plot can still happen with Babette or Nazir completing it, especially when Cicero knows where the Dawnstar sanctuary is and the fact we know that there are DB agents hiding among guards in every hold. We actually don't get a clear indication of just how vast the DB is in skyrim)

[worldly gate]

Astrid says in game this is all that’s left. The guards aren’t real agents as far as I’m aware more just paid off

[cosmic thistle]

Astrid could be lying because the guards will say "we share the same mother, hail Sithis"

Ok I'm misremembering that, they just say "Psst. Hey, I know who you are. Hail Sithis!"

[sharp lantern]

Tbf, I find it unlikely for Motierre to try and hire the Brotherhood if the common belief is they are destroyed.

But I do agree the Empire is more likely to win the war.

[cosmic thistle]

I imagine he'd find other operatives or the Night Mother speaks to one of the surviving members to initiate it

Not like the DB is the only assassin group in Tamriel

Morag Tong killing another Emperor would be funny

[worldly gate]

The belief isn’t that they are dead they are very much around, the issue is they are but a shadow of what they once were

[balmy salmon]

The issue is that without a Listener, the DB can only learn of the Black Sacrament through hearsay.

[pastel sorrel]

Shrimply kill everyone, you'll probably get the target somewhere along the way

https://tenor.com/view/shrimp-as-that-clash-royale-hee-hee-hee-haw-gif-25054781

[glacial scarab]

We've found the next world ending threat. Sithis wants the world destroyed. So the only thing left is only Void.

[green plinth]

Hearsay? But How? It isn’t like Olf and Gareth are at the local Inn chatting about how Olf tried a black sacrament to off his wife or something. Without a listener they are not likely to even know there are black sacraments going on.

[balmy salmon]

Rumors like those about Aventus. If Aventus and Maven are any indication, Astrid is hiding the fact that the DB isn't in contact with the Night Mother anymore.

[night trellis]

That's not really a conclusive explanation. It's a conjecture for what you want to believe may happen. There is no conclusive proof that the Empire is secretly gathering a game-changing assault army behind the Pale pass, secondly, what you quote is Stormcloak intelligence/rumors not an neutral verification or imperial order, in fact the Imperial missive for Fort Neugrad says the complete opposite! Meaning both are unreliable to speculate on without further details. There's plenty of hints given in the game that the Empire is badly weakened and Cyrodiil is in bad shape as well, rampant fighting/banditry with imperials fleeing to Skyrim, corruption and assassination plots by the council, and at least half of Skyrim dislike the Empire as well, one can consider an imperial long term victory if one makes the assumption that Tullius manages to completely unify Skyrim (not highly plausible given his ignorance of the region and its inhabitants) and Cyrodiil before the Thalmor find an excuse to strike again. Narratively, the Empire has been written up to dissolve with how each region left it and/or detests it besides the fickle High Rock. It's a sinking ship.

Regarding forsworn, if Madanach is dead they'd keep being leaderless and disorganized, most likely continue their traditions of worshipping molag bal and namira, kidnapping children or eating travelling merchants.

[cosmic thistle]

I never said it was tho

I said they did some work to explain it

[night trellis]

You used it as factual evidence and then made a narrative conclusion on this assumption, if that's not what you meant then perhaps you worded it too strongly.

[cosmic thistle]

I'm willing it into existence

[worldly gate]

What do yall think the next main threat is gonna be and will we see the forgotten Daedric prince as a Daedric quest in the next elder scrolls

[upper field]

Pretty sure the forgotten Daedric Prince will remain forgotten, as wasteful as it is.

I'm more interested if Jyggalag will have some sort of mention.

[waxen burrow]

I think the main next threat might be about the Thalmor and how they find a powerful daedric artifact.

[upper field]

idk I feel like it's too soon to out the Thalmor.

[proven moss]

Sload

That's my guess

Though I'd much prefer a main quest that isn't some world-ending threat

feels like that can't happen anymore though

[clever goblet]

All Flags Navy Part 2, anyone?

[worldly gate]

I’d also like Jyg to comeback

A main quest bringing

Highrock, Orsinium, and Hammerfell back into the empire would be cool.

Have it be revealed the breton kings are at war with eachother

[worldly gate]

I kinda hope Bethesda makes Malacath the main character. I wish they wrote Malacath like Darth Vader give him more of a Vader approach dual personalities.

Cuz he was an Aedra once. Just woulda made him standout more

[cosmic thistle]

God I hope we do not get another "the enemy is a daedric prince" story anytime soon

ESO went way too hard on that to the point it lost all sense of urgency, it was so annoying

Honestly I'd rather they focus on a political story in the setting more like how a lot of Morrowind and Daggerfall focused on the political aspect of the regions

[uncut hatch]

ESO's base story is like an infinitely better version of Oblivion's story and i like where it left

For the next game i wouldn't mind if the main enemy is a natural disaster than any Aedra or Daedra

[runic escarp]

I hope they go full kirkbride and go for the towers since ESO somewhat confirmed the theory but we'll see

[green plinth]

I think that the civil war has just petered out and all sides are devastated leaving Skyrim a weakened backwater. In game people debate what side the last dragon born were on before they vanish but no one can agree which as everyone who met them is either dead or missing or untrustworthy.

[balmy salmon]

At some point I start to think that going through the necessary hoops to leave things ambiguous is more obnoxious and invalidating than having a concrete answer.

[green plinth]

Like the morrowind protagonist going to akavir or the oblivion one just vanishing

[night trellis]

Ironically, making background lore is easier than giving player choice and story lore, because they throw endless debates and sometimes hissy fits if their choice is not the canonical one or if the new lore isn't ambiguous. Few are complaining that Hammerfell and Morrowind canonically seceded from the Empire.

[balmy salmon]

I'd rather my choice be non-canon than the writers going "screw you all, here's an outcome where none of the choices mattered".

[night trellis]

Some games used to do that, ask you questions on your narrative choices in the previous game, maybe that would take a few extra voicelines or cutscenes, but maybe not worth the effort for them or they just dont want to piss off people

[balmy salmon]

In Skyrim in particular, ending the civil war on either side is better than letting it grind in like the Thalmor want so being ambiguous and letting it drag on is the biggest insult you could throw at the players, even worse than making their choice non canon.

[night trellis]

If I asked reddit or even here whether they'd be content with imperials losing and stormcloaks winning being canon you'd get a lot of sour opinions, you probably haven't considered how polarizing this has been throughout the years lol

[balmy salmon]

I used to argue the civil war back on the old forums back when the game first released.

[cosmic thistle]

Tbf the oblivion one didn't vanish, they're sheogorath, even shivering isles says the person who takes the mantle has their personality taken over

The agent vanished

That one is true, they're just gone gone

The eternal champion also just vanished entirely

[waxen burrow]

https://www.quotev.com/quiz/12350125/The-Elder-Scrolls-Lore-Quiz

[night trellis]

https://www.quotev.com/quiz/751537/Which-Elder-Scrolls-race-are-you this one was fun, did not expect the answer

[pastel sorrel]

The EC basically lived Happily Ever After

[cosmic thistle]

And no one returned for the oblivion crisis

[worldly gate]

Not a bad idea

[green plinth]

In my suggested scenario it could argue that we could have ended the civil war but our character vanished getting involved with Mora. Without us lending a hand the war boils on and on just like the Thalmor want. I think they are going to be the big bad in the next game.

I don’t think our character in oblivion mentioned at all in Skyrim

[cosmic thistle]

I think they should just have a canon ending

Even if it goes against what I usually choose

A whole half of a province civil war in an empire in decline is kind of noteworthy and would have rippling effects realistically. A canon ending with NPCs commenting on it saying "Oh we fled to Hammerfell because we were being persecuted by the imperials" or "my whole family fled because of our ties to the empire" would make it feel more connected to the previous game.

I say this because lately I've been thinking how the whole issue of Morrowind having a slave population and the amount of goods flowing out of Morrowind would've destabilized say Cyrodiil's market that farmers or miners couldn't compete. I've been thinking a lot about how disconnected the games feel between each other.

Think they should put more effort into the games feeling more connected in aesthetics, like how advanced trading and shipping felt in Morrowind, that should be better reflected

[waxen burrow]

https://www.quotev.com/quiz/16913232/Tamrielic-Knowledge-Quiz-4

[proven moss]

Harder than I expected it to be

Wish I knew which ones I got wrong. 😂

[waxen burrow]

https://www.quotev.com/quiz/13845959/Which-Famous-Elder-Scrolls-Lore-Figure-Are-You

[sharp lantern]

Question: why are the Thalmor and An-Xileel accounts of the Oblivion Crisis read with such scrutiny, whereas everyone blindly believes the Redoran account?

[upper field]

Probably because Dunmer were never really fond of the Empire saved for a few.

[sharp lantern]

Neither were the An-Xileel and Thalmor though.

[upper field]

idk then

[balmy salmon]

Not everyone blindly believes the Redoran account because it contradicts Ocato's dialogue in TES IV.

That he couldn't muster aid for Bruma because the Legions were already committed to keeping order in the provinces.

[sharp lantern]

Yeah, but you don't really see people in the lore community casting the doubt on the claims of the Redoran like they do the Thalmor's or An-Xileels.

With the An-Xileel they instantly go ''it's just propaganda stated by a drunk'', and for the Thalmor they commonly make similar such statements.

For the Redoran? Not so much.

[balmy salmon]

For what it's worth, Hlaalu absolutely deserved all the scapegoating that Redoran heaped on it, because they spent all of TES III sabotaging Redoran at every turn.

Pretty sure that they were telling the truth about Archmaster Venim's love life though. That guy was a real piece of work.

[cosmic thistle]

Redoran isn't wrong and they're more right than they think thanks to hlaalu being backed by a drug cartel

[cosmic thistle]

The issue is we don't know how well together the legions are, especially in a place like Morrowind where the legion is shown to have numerous issues from not taking care of smugglers to corruption in the ranks. Both statements could be true, Ocato didn't pull out troops but the legions did leave because of the fact many are foreign born, Morrowind is hostile and the empire's command structure is broken up, we don't exactly know how much authority Ocato is wielding nor if it's respected, you also have that the elder council pretty much abandoned cyrodiil to look after their own homes, wouldn't put it past nobles to prioritize their own holding in a crisis

As for if redoran is lying or not they kinda don't have a reason to. Mass movement of troops is something that would be remembered and documented, especially considering how long lived dunmer are, you're also a nobody so why would anyone bother lying to you? I don't think it's propaganda, I believe both cases are right, especially when Ocato couldn't even keep cyrodiil together let alone the entire empire

[sharp lantern]

Nah, the Hlaalu were actually starting to get influence to the point where some of the deplorable aspects of Morrowind culture were deteriorating. Helseth managed to get House Dres to release their beastfolk slaves - that speaks volumes.

[sharp lantern]

The Redoran have every reason to lie, they hate the Empire and the Hlaalu. To the point they only named the Nerevarine their hortator because they believed the rumors of them being a Blade were false.

And who is going to be alive to tell the difference? How many Dunmer who lived at the start of TES IV would have still been alive after the Oblivion Crisis, eruption of Red Mountain, An-Xileel invasion and Umbriel Crisis?

[cosmic thistle]

You're a random nobody so no they actually don't lol we literally meet a dunmer that did live through both the oblivion crisis, the argonian invasion and the red year, Neloth is right there

Again it's more likely that Ocato was losing power left and right, the legions were acting on their own because the command structure is basically dead, it adds up

Oh and the alchemist growing nirnroot in the rift who lived in vivec before the red year. The forts were also all by major cities

[cosmic thistle]

Fort Buckmoth, outside of Ald-Ruhn, fort Moonmoth outside of Balmora, fort Darius directly built inside Gnisis, fort hawkmoth outside of vivec and built into the structure of ebonheart where the vvardenfell grand council met, fort pelagiad nestled right on top of the crossroads between Vivec, Suran, Balmora and numerous plantations and farms. Mass movement of troops wouldn't be something you can easily lie about for a race that commonly sees their 200th birthday. It would be a matter of history. Add in we see how fragile Ocato's power is, especially when the empire still hadn't fully recovered from Tharn's reign which is a point in Morrowind and Daggerfall where Uriel is trying to strengthen the empire

[cosmic thistle]

Hlaalu were also extremely corrupt, had a large hand in the slave trade and being controlled by a highly xenophobic drug cartel that was engaged in slave trafficking and drug trafficking, it was a point of their quest line that in order to become the grandmaster of hlaalu you had to get control of the Camonna Tong from Dren either by persuading him, blackmailing him or just straight up killing him. So we kinda don't have to hand it to hlaalu for ending slavery, we owe it to the work of Helseth, who while a member of Hlaalu is not a councilor nor in a position of power in the hlaalu council.

[sharp lantern]

Why would they not share their propaganda to others just because you're "a nobody"? Neloth never affirms the claims of the Redoran.

The command structure of the Legion was not "basically dead", the Legions still had their generals and forts. The idea that they'd just abandon their posts for no reason is illogical - and contradicts what we hear in TES IV.

The claim that the Legions were recalled is only stated by the Redoran and is unsupported by any other source.

[cosmic thistle]

The generals who no longer had an emperor, who are in a land whose biggest crisis before the oblivion crisis was a schism in the temple between the position of the tribunal as well as the return to daedra worship and are now seeing gates into oblivion opening and a crumbling empire that wasn't doing well before the emperor died would absolutely see troops mass deserting to return home. Again, both sides are telling the truth. Ocato wasn't exactly portrayed as all powerful and commanding during oblivion after all

Couldn't even keep the elder council in cyrodiil

[sharp lantern]

The Hlaalu did not have a "a large hand" in the slave trade - it was uncommon in their lands, most opposed it, and Helseth eventually outlawed it province-wide.

[sharp lantern]

This claim is entirely based on headcanon. If what you said were true, how come all we hear in TES IV of the Legions is them fighting, and nothing about some mass desertion?

[cosmic thistle]

So you just never played Morrowind? Because Caldera, various Hlaalu owned plantations, several hlaalu mines, manors and Suran having a slave market are all in the game. Hlaalu were actively using slave labor on a massive scale

[sharp lantern]

Uncommon =/= Nonexistant.

Vvardenfell isn't all of Morrowind.

[cosmic thistle]

Uncommon =/= reality

[sharp lantern]

A literal slave trader tells us how it is uncommon in Hlaalu lands.

[cosmic thistle]

In the video game the elder scrolls 3 morrowind hlaalu is the house using slave labor the most

[sharp lantern]

^

[cosmic thistle]

You're right they're more likely to use more slave labor on the mainland because they're the most slave labor using faction in the entirety of the game and their entire wealth is based on forced labor, corruption, influence peddling and large scale resource extraction regardless if it's their ancestral territory or not which is how Caldera, which is by heritage redoran land was given to hlaalu by the empire

[sharp lantern]

''Slavery is not now practiced in Summerset Isles or Valenwood, and its practice is on the wane in Morrowind. By terms of the Armistice, Morrowind defines its own laws and customs, and slavery remains legal. Slavery is uncommon in Redoran and Hlaalu Districts, common in Telvanni, Indoril, and Dres Districts."
-Brallion, slave trader

''Slavery is protected by law in Morrowind. Slavery is illegal throughout the Empire, and considered barbaric. Slavery had disappeared in Sumerset Isles and Valenwood long before their incorporation into the Empire. Most Imperial citizens assume the practice will die out as Morrowind adopts Imperial ways... ''
-Generic dialogue

And which of the Great Houses is most adoptive of Imperial ways? The Hlaalu.

[cosmic thistle]

None of this of course actually matters in the discussion of who is telling the truth, if anything Ocato has more reason to lie about his ability to command the legion because his power is extremely limited given that the entirety of the elder council, besides him, abandoned the imperial city and we still don't have a motive for why the second councilor of raven rock would lie to someone who just stepped off a boat. The player isn't there to solve a land dispute between Skyrim, Morrowind or the Empire, there's no gain for lying, and I'm not even saying anyone is lying what I'm saying is Ocato's power, which is backed by the books and the game Oblivion, is there by tradition only. Tradition doesn't matter when hordes of daedra are attacking numerous cities, the empire is barely held together in oblivion

[cosmic thistle]

And yet hlaalu is the house that uses slavery the most

Hlaalu is also the house of wide scale corruption and the house that's under the control of a xenophobic drug cartel

[sharp lantern]

Ocato has zero reason to lie because the literal heir to the throne is on the verge of risking his own life to end the crisis. Ocato is the de facto head of the Imperial government through most of the Oblivion Crisis. And again, your narrative runs counter to the crisis itself. Marius Caro outright tells us how he already wasn't given the forces to patrol his lands because the Elder Council cared too much for the provinces and left Cyrodiil to fend for itself. Again, commoners openly remark in TES IV, from the start to the end of the crisis, how the Legion is stretched to the limit across the Empire. Not one city of Cyrodiil is given organised Legion aid - your narrative (and Arano's) contradicts the Oblivion Crisis that we experience in Cyrodiil firsthand.

Adril Arano has zero reason to tell the truth - he's a Redoran who wishes to make the Redoran look good. And since the Redoran hate the Empire, that also means pulling them down. ''The Empire left us to fend for ourselves, but we heroic Redoran single-handedly saved Morrowind!'' is absolutely something he'd be willing to say.

[cosmic thistle]

Ocato is a liar got it

[sharp lantern]

Prove it.

[cosmic thistle]

Caldera, Suran slave market, numerous plantations, numerous hlaalu owned mines, hlaalu having the most house slaves

[sharp lantern]

Ocato's statements:
-Backed up by the main quest in TES IV.
-Backed up by Marius Caro.
-Backed up by commoners in TES IV.

Arano's statements:
-Backed up by nothing from the Crisis.

[cosmic thistle]

All in the game the elder scrolls 3 morrowind, I also recommend uesp for more easily available information

[sharp lantern]

Again, Vvardenfell isn't all of Morrowind. It's getting tired to repeat this. A slave trader knows slavery better than you do.

[cosmic thistle]

Prove slavery isn't going on on such a scale on the mainland

[sharp lantern]

Bruh, Brallion literally says the practice is on the wane and is uncommon in their (and the Redoran's) districts.

[cosmic thistle]

Anyway Ocato is a liar glad we can confirm it

And yet extremely common, wild

[sharp lantern]

You think you know it better than a literal slave trader - whose entire business is about selling slaves? 💀

[cosmic thistle]

And yet extremely common in hlaalu lands

An NPC can say one thing but evidence of it happening all over their land says otherwise

[sharp lantern]

You have nothing to support that statement.

[sharp lantern]

We literally never set foot in Hlaalu District. We only see two plantations, one of which is owned by the literal pro-Dagoth Ur Orvas Dren. Are you going to tell me that House Hlaalu now also wants Dagoth Ur to take over Morrowind with Akulakhan?

[cosmic thistle]

Considering Orvas controls the Camonna Tong, is so influential that several councilors will do whatever he says and getting control of the Camonna Tong is a key part of becoming grandmaster, yea actually, same with the fighter's guild under his control

And the empire doing little also makes them complicit including the fact that the Tong's the main source of the moon sugar and skooma trade, yet here is their favorite lapdog, supporting a drug cartel while corruption eats it's way into Hlaalu like a cancer

It's not a coincidence that the most openly corrupt and land grabbing house is the one that supports the empire, it's not a coincidence slavery is a key part of hlaalu labor that freeing one slave that is seen as their leader is enough to shutdown Caldera mine which is run by Hlaalu

Brallion is wrong, what we see constantly in Hlaalu territory is right. Slavery is common.

And at the heart of this issue before the weird segway of "hlaalu does nothing wrong" we have two characters. One that has a reason to lie (Ocato who wouldn't want a panic or to seem weak) vs a character with literally no reason to lie (Arano) we can say that the empire did pull out, by Ocato's orders or not, they did. Arano, his family, his friends, it would be a historic fact that many dunmer lived through and is in no way "redoran propaganda" when again he has no reason to lie to a complete stranger and gains nothing from it

[sharp lantern]

You base your entire argument on Vvardenfell, which is only a fraction of the Hlaalu power. The fact you think the entire House is somehow invalidated by the acts of two Hlaalus is your problem. The Hlaalu questline and main questline alike see you dealing with Orvas Dren where you effectively get rid of his whole ''control'' over the situation. Your claim that Brallion is wrong just shows bias on your part. We never even set foot in Hlaalu District, so your argument does not hold up.

[cosmic thistle]

Cool show me on the mainland where Hlaalu doesn't engage in slavery then

[sharp lantern]

How about you show me where they do? Since you claim to know it better than one of the guys supplying slaves.

[cosmic thistle]

I'm using vvardenfell as an example, we see tons of hlaalu slaves, we see numerous hlaalu owned properties that rely on slave labor to the point it's a critical source of labor, we see Hlaalu engaging in every element of the slave trade

Going "well it's different on the mainland" is not a supported argument

[sharp lantern]

Ocato has zero reason to lie, lmao. The literal heir of the throne, the last chance at beating Dagon, is at Bruma. Ocato lacks any reason not to send reinforcements, because in doing so he increases the risk of Dagon's victory.

Arano has every reason to lie because he's a Redoran, and the Redoran hate the Empire and hate the Hlaalu who support it.

[sharp lantern]

You base your entire argument on Vvardenfell when most of House Hlaalu in TES III do not even keep slaves.

[cosmic thistle]

He has EVERY reason to lie. He has no elder council, barely any authority, the command structure is hurt, unrest in the imperial city is a common issue that's known even in morrowind, he is the last sitting member in the council chambers while everything is falling around him, especially when someone he does not know comes up claiming to be a messenger from an unknown prince. Again, as I've been saying Ocato might not have given the order and even gave the exact opposite yet the empire pulled out, it's not Redoran propaganda

[cosmic thistle]

Yes I base it off in-game information where Hlaalu is very noticeably reliant on the slave trade and slave labor

As opposed to no evidence "it's different on the mainland"

[sharp lantern]

Ocato is the de facto leader of the Empire during the Oblivion Crisis, lol? What on earth do you mean ''barely any authority''? 💀

Your claim of ''unrest in the Imperial City'' is outdated, nothing in TES IV supports the notion. The claim that the Legions were pulled out is completely unsupported by the events of Oblivion.

[sharp lantern]

Pretty bad argument you got there, bud.

[cosmic thistle]

And yet we have a character that says otherwise

[sharp lantern]

Because House Redoran wants to make the Empire look bad cuz they hate the Empire and House Hlaalu.

[cosmic thistle]

Asking for evidence of your claim is a bad argument? How so

[heady wave]

Ocato is the de facto leader of the Empire during the Oblivion Crisis, lol? What on earth do you mean ''barely any authority''?

And not only that, he's been part of the Elder Council for forever, and was practically like a Prime Minister/Governor-General as Imperial Battlemage. And Uriel VII would likely had personally vouched for him considering he is one of the few to have had his trust.

[sharp lantern]

You're the one claiming that the Hlaalu as a whole were big on slavery just because of a couple of Hlaalu on Vvardenfell being so.

Even though a literal slave trader makes it clear this is not the case.

[cosmic thistle]

And now we have an entire government that still hasn't recovered from the events of Arena that is crumbling because the emperor and his heirs were slaughtered leaving a succession crisis

The elder council all left, he is alone in a chamber where he is left to pick up the pieces, these kinds of issues always lead to civil wars and claimants saying they're the rightful emperor which does actually happen in the fourth era

For all purposes the empire is basically dead until Medes takes over

[cosmic thistle]

And yet Hlaalu is depicted as the house that has the most slaves under it with only a "well it could be different on the mainland" with nothing pointing to that, just one trader vs everything else we see in Hlaalu territory with tons of slaves in chains

Saying it's a bad argument to say otherwise itself is a bad argument because you have one slave trader in Sadrith Mora vs the entirety of what we see with House Hlaalu with no mention of it being different on the mainland

Anyway glad we cleared up that Ocato, while not intentionally, lied about the legion forces, Arano whose family lived through it and would see forts that are a stone's throw from major settlements would actually know better because they not only have the evidence but can see with their own eyes. We don't know the full details we just know the empire didn't come to the aid of the dunmer

A slave trader can also absolutely be misinformed, I have met many people throughout my life where I knew more than they did about their profession, especially in regards to stuff like hardware and software problems, I've met handymen who messed up on a job that I then fixed myself, being a slave trader on the far end of the empire doesn't mean you know all the routes, it just means he is misinformed which is something that Bethesda games always have, NPCs who are just wrong or misinformed.

We see Hlaalu's slavery on a massive scale in the game to the point one quest is literally about closing the largest ebony mine on Tamriel by freeing a slave that was basically the chosen representative of the slaves, that alone can halt all mining in Caldera, because their workforce that is primarily made up of slaves is not working. We have literally nothing saying the mainland is different. It has more slaves than Redoran and Telvanni combined.

[sharp lantern]

They left because they went to their own provinces to deal with local matters, which makes sense when all of Tamriel is being invaded by Oblivion.

The Stormcrown Interregnum didn't break out until after Ocato's death - which happened around 4E 15.

I fail to see how any of that is relevant to the fact that Cyrodiil was left to fend for itself though.

[cosmic thistle]

And the dunmer were left to fend for themselves when the legions pulled out

[sharp lantern]

Vvardenfell isn't the Hlaalu District, so your "argument" is based on grounds which are not relevant.

[cosmic thistle]

Ok so show me evidence that says that the mainland is a free utopia with no slaves

You have one slave trader that turns out to be very wrong when we use our own eyes to see that Hlaalu has the largest slave population working in their mines, in their fields, in their houses

Like I said Ocato may not have given the orders but the legions leaving Morrowind holds more than just "Redoran propaganda" based on your own dislike of House Redoran. The emperor and his heirs dead, the world was being invaded by daedra, why wouldn't some lowly farmer from Skyrim leave to defend their loved ones?

Both Daggerfall and Morrowind show the empire sliding to collapse, where imperial authority didn't stop major kingdoms in high rock from trying to use a world-destroying golem to gain more power, Morrowind was constantly showing a house war was brewing due to hostilities that the empire does nothing about. Instead the houses raided each other or sent assassins after each other. Tamriel all over never recovered from Tharn so yes, I can believe that Ocato was struggling to keep an already unstable Tamriel from falling apart when hordes of daedra were ransacking every city across Tamriel.

[sharp lantern]

Bruh, I literally provided you with a source stating it is on the wane and uncommon in the Hlaalu District.

Next you'll be telling me the Dres didn't keep slaves because "we don't see it in TES III".

[sharp lantern]

The claim the Legions left Morrowind directly contradicts the events of Oblivion, both in dialogue and gameplay, there is no logical reason to place the call of Arano above what we experience firsthand.

[cosmic thistle]

No you gave me dialogue from a misinformed slave trader who says the house with the biggest slave labor force in Morrowind has little slaves

Which does not hold up with evidence we see with our own eyes

[sharp lantern]

He says the practice is uncommon in the Hlaalu District. Vvardenfell District is a different district. Aka, irrelevant to what Brallion states. But even then, counting the number of Hlaalu slave-owners in TES III leads up to less than 2%.

[cosmic thistle]

So you're telling me a character who doesn't have up to date reports on the legion because of chaos caused by the emperor and his heir's deaths and the hordes of daedra.

[sharp lantern]

There is zero proof Ocato's statements aren't "up to date".

[cosmic thistle]

Ascadian isles is Hlaalu territory, Balmora and Suran are hlaalu territory, caldera is run by Hlaalu

[sharp lantern]

The Great Gate at Bruma is near the end of the Crisis.

[cosmic thistle]

Look all around slavery to be found in Hlaalu

[sharp lantern]

Still Vvardenfell District of Morrowind. Not the Hlaalu District.

[cosmic thistle]

Slavery on the scale that the largest ebony mine is mainly held together by SLAVERY

Anyway Ocato lied is the position I'm going to turn back around on. Even if he intentionally did not know it, the legion abandoned Morrowind

Then again lies from a corrupt husk of an empire is to be expected

[sharp lantern]

The Legion abandoning Morrowind runs counter to the events of TES IV, aka, it is fake news.

[cosmic thistle]

Nah

[sharp lantern]

A lie by the Redoran to kick the Hlaalu from their gilded throne, a lie by the Redoran to reverse the power structure in the province.

[cosmic thistle]

Nice headcanon

[sharp lantern]

It is the narrative that adds up with the lore.

[cosmic thistle]

No lies detected, Arano has nothing to gain from it

[sharp lantern]

Next you'll be telling me elven supremacy is the only truth because the Thalmor say it.

[cosmic thistle]

The Empire dying would be cool

Same with the Dominion

[sharp lantern]

You're free to have that opinion.

[balmy salmon]

I meant more in the context of how in TES III, Hlaalu was sabotaging and undermining Redoran at every opportunity. Aside from the most notable example of the Caldera Ebony Mine, a bunch of Hlaalu's questlines are about sabotaging Redoran and a bunch of Redoran's quest are about putting a stop to Hlaalu's troublemaking.

[cosmic thistle]

It's also ignoring Redoran didn't claim to stop the oblivion crisis as opposed to the thalmor and argonians, Redoran didn't become the leader of the grand council until AFTER the red year and the argonian invasion

The whole "it's propaganda" excuse makes no sense

[cosmic thistle]

Don't forget that hlaalu is also sabotaging itself where there are several quests that involve weakening a rival member

[glacial scarab]

As far as TES3 acts. Most of Hlaalu's slavery is on Vvardenfell. A slave Trader at Sadrith Mora talks of it.

The "Districts" where slavery is uncommon is the Redoran and Hlaalu Districts. Ones where it is common at the Dres, Telvanni and Indoril districts.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Brallion

Slavery is uncommon in Redoran and Hlaalu Districts, common in Telvanni, Indoril, and Dres Districts."

Districts being the Imperial administrative divisions of Morrowind under the Imperial Proconsul. At least before Oblivion went no more Governors and all in on Kings.

[cosmic thistle]

Yea the issue is most of the slavery is on a institutional level where several high profit businesses, like the plantations and mines, are mainly slave workforces, that's why it's important to bring up Caldera, the biggest mine in morrowind, is crippled to the point of not being able to continue work because of the leader of the slaves being freed

That's the point, on an institutional level Hlaalu relies on slavery and besides one slave trader's dialogue we actually don't see many hlaalu being against it, even the twin lamps presence in Hlaalu is on a small scale as opposed to the Camonna Tong that snuggles slaves and uses them as drug mules

[glacial scarab]

It might also be a Dunmer divide. Where it's not that common in the west compared to the east.

[glacial scarab]

Ehh at the moment not really. Because they've not really done good writing with the Imperials. Like you could remove the Empire from TES4 and 5 and nothing changes because of how badly TES handles the Empire. TES5 is barely a province with it pretty much just being a Nordic Kingdom with a foreign Military and TES4 wanted nothing to do with the Imperials and their "Empire".

[cosmic thistle]

Nah in 5 they're more prominent due to the civil war but yea 4 has the issue of barely any legion presence despite being the heart of the empire and a national standing army

[waxen burrow]

https://www.quotev.com/quiz/14200774/Guess-The-Oblivion-Areas-DLC-Included

[waxen burrow]

The Falmer have an interesting story to them....although tragic

[cosmic thistle]

Falmer were one of the best things in Skyrim tbh

[cosmic thistle]

If I could go back and change one thing it'd be having corrupted and uncorrupted falmer living side by side in the vale instead of what we got. I want a still living snow elf population

[waxen burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/re-zero-starting-life-in-another-world-emilia-anime-girl-gif-17724701

[sharp lantern]

Less than 5% of the Hlaalu we encounter in TES III keep slaves, though. The Hlaalu are generally proud of being part of the Empire and strongly supports it, including loyalty to the Emperor, and acceptance of its laws, military, faith and trade. Also racial tolerance, and advocating for changes in Morrowind aligned with the Empire, they are seen as progressive.

The Camonna Tong influence is with a few high ranking members, and it deviates from the typical Hlaalu worldview, as the Tong wishes to be rid of the Empire and its institutions and Orvas Dren outright supports Dagoth Ur. The big problem is that the members of the Hlaalu who have those connections are people with a great deal of influence - three of its six Councilors on Vvardenfell being in their pocket.

There are always outliers and exceptions - most of House Redoran is willing to accept an Outlander as Hortator, but not the leader of the House. That doesn't make the entire House hateful of Outlanders. Same way a couple of Hlaalu slave owners on Vvardenfell doesn't make the entire House pro-slavery.

[cosmic thistle]

"with a few high ranking members" yea high ranking, with their titles being councilor. Who have influence in voting on house policies and actions. That's some high level corruption, this is like it's saying it's not a big deal if members of a state congress were found out to have mafia ties. Even the ones that the Camonna Tong don't have influence over are still corrupt, like Curio who has you shake down a smuggler crew for protection money. Specifically calling them "Smuggling fees"

None of this changes the fact it wasn't just the Oblivion Crisis that saw Hlaalu's power to wane. Hlaalu is constantly shown to be corrupt and using it's political power with the Empire to seize land and cause problems. It's councilors are all corrupt and adds in the fact Redoran didn't gain the leadership position of the Grand Council until after they lead the charge to push out the argonians.

Important to note all of this happening during Ocato's reign as potentate. The Empire did nothing for Morrowind during the Oblivion Crisis, they did nothing for them during the Red year where even Skyrim accepted refugees and gave Morrowind Solstheim, they did nothing while Morrowind was still a vassal under the Empire when Black Marsh seceded and invaded Morrowind.

It's not Redoran propaganda and saying such is nothing but headcanon, much like with other events during the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis we see what Ocato's leadership is like. That's the end point here.

Ocato didn't move the legions out, yea I'll agree on that, but that doesn't change the Legion seeing their Emperor and his line of successors dead now are struggling to maintain morale especially when gates to this setting's equivilant to hell begin to open all over Tamriel. So it's not farfetched to say that the legion, in a state of panic, started to break apart which yea, it's shown in Morrowind that the legion has a ton of issues going on where clearing out bandit dens and smugglers is a second objective to showing up the Bouyant Armigers and Ordinators.

Both are telling the truth, Arano isn't "shouting out redoran propaganda" it's the history of a time where the Empire starts to fall because it still didn't recover from Tharn and now would be made worse when the Emperor is just now confirmed dead along with everyone else who could take up the throne

[sharp lantern]

The only council we know the Tong has influence in, is the Hlaalu Counsel for the Vvardenfell District - every District has its own House Counsels, and I'm going to guess the Hlaalu District has a considerably larger one. The claim the Empire ''did nothing for Morrowind'' runs contrary to the events of TES IV, as does Arano's claims. I don't know why you insist on believing the tale told by someone 200 years later instead of the very events that we experience firsthand.

Arano outright sells the lie that the Legions were recalled to ''deal with the gates'' in Cyrodiil - that is contrary to the events we see firsthand. The claim that the Legionnaires just ''packed up and left'' of their own accord is also unsupported by either account.

[glacial scarab]

They barely exist in Skyrim itself despite there being a "handful of Legions" as the only presence is one person in a hold capital hidden away. Even Castle Dour has problems since Aldis and his recruits are meant to be Legion but are in the wrong armour. So you have a game Game World where the Civil War barely does anything to it as It's still a Nordic Kingdom just like Oblivion's Cyrodill was a bunch of separate Kingdoms

The problem comes down to simply TES does not want to write the Empire as an Empire and the pain that is Imperial writing where TES refuses to bother with them.

[uncut hatch]

Solitude's guards aren't in the wrong armor. They're allied with the legion but they belong to Solitude hence the normal guard uniform

[glacial scarab]

Castle Dours ones are. I know there's a difference but the people Aldis is training are meant to be Legion Soldiers.

[uncut hatch]

In fact after the war is done only holds that were non legion supporters get replaced with Imp legionaires. Rest remain normal guards

[glacial scarab]

For Ocato we do have his script notes. So as far as we know he did try to recall Legions but the Generals said no as they're all busy fighting.

Honestly It would fit the Oblivion Crisis far better if most of them died fighting then just being recalled. As it contradicts what we see in TES4 where its a plot point that no Legions are coming (even though we have no idea where the Swampmoth Legion is that was recalled before the war due to Slavery ending in Morrowind) and gives Cyrodiil too much man power after the Crisis is over.

I've been pleading for troops for Cyrodiil for weeks, but the generals assure me that the entire Imperial Army is already fully committed.

Script Notes
"disgust at the pig-headed military types he is forced to deal with"

Besides... I'd have a full-scale political crisis on my hands if I tried to pull any troops out of the provinces.

Script Notes
"admitting that in fact, it isn't really the generals fault"

[uncut hatch]

That part does make sense. They should've added some more legion soldiers there.
But then again he could just be in charge of training them all, Solitude guards don't have a separate captain do they?

Like he says he's training legionaires because that's his main focus rn, don't mean he doesn't train the guards too

[glacial scarab]

Are you with the Legion?
"That I am. Train the recruits. Turn boys into men. That sort of thing. Thinking of asking the General for some training books. Give the soldiers something to do while they're on rest. Something besides drinking. Ever seen a book called 'The Mirror'? We used to hand it out to boys looking to learn basic shield work."

Castle Dour all being Legion Soldiers are least makes sense due to what Castle Dour is being used for.

He's also the one with information on Angeline Morrard's daughter.

[uncut hatch]

Although this does make me wonder. Where are the guard barracks?

Dour is primarily used by legionaires. Where do the guards stay?

[glacial scarab]

All guards are at Castle Dour. I think at least. Though I don't know if there's enough beds for the guards at patrol the city.

[uncut hatch]

Yeah. Then I feel the guards atp are essentially unofficial legionaires too cos' Tullius is handling the entire war in general

Maybe after it's over their command will be transferred back to Falk or Elisif

[glacial scarab]

I'd imagine at most Castle Dour is all Legionnaires but outside of it is Hafingaar soldiers.

They just messed up Aldis and the people he is training

[cosmic thistle]

Important to remember much like the stormcloaks the legion in skyrim is made up mostly of local recruits because as Tullius states most of the legion is tied down at the border with the dominion, which is also backed up with Lokir saying "Before you stormcloaks the legion barely did anything" and why a lot of forts were abandoned.

Unlike Oblivion where the legion has no manned forts outside of the imperial city, we don't even see any coast guard, border guards, forts alongside important trade routes

one fort in Cyrodiil which is on the crucial path of skingrad to the imperial city is literally on top of the road, filled with bandits

most of the road around the IC itself is filled with bandits lol meanwhile in Morrowind it was a plot point of the legion is a massive force in this frontier district that are more interested in one uping the locals over actually dealing with crime, bandits and smugglers

[uncut hatch]

We do see exactly ONE legion road patrol that shows up to help when Kvatch is attacked in Oblivion but yeah that's about it

I'd say a lot of Oblivion's issues are a result of it's ambition. There should be more patrols and forts in lore all around but because of limitations there aren't.
Cos' like the Battle of Bruma is supposed to be a massive battle yet there's only one or two soldiers per city

[cosmic thistle]

Honestly the empire being a corrupted dying regime was a good commentary in Morrowind, they should return to that bring a major fact of the empire

[uncut hatch]

They did bring that back in Skyrim. They're not in the best shape rn even without the civil war

[clever goblet]

I’d say oblivion somewhat showcased that aswell

end of the septim lineage and all that

[cosmic thistle]

It wasn't to the same level, you get like two corrupt families in Skyrim vs the fighter's guild, the hlaalu, the EEC, the only western faction in morrowind that wasn't corrupted is the imperial cult

Like morrowind has an entire side quest around a legion commander hiring you under the table to find and wipe out a Camonna Tong cornerclub because the imperial magistrate of Balmora is taking bribes

That's like numerous levels of corrupt in one side quest

[cosmic thistle]

And as mentioned Oblivion barely had much imperial authority being showcased. It was too scared to make any faction that wasn't the DB look bad and even then the DB is basically cartoonish in its handling

Blackwood should've been the protag group going against a corrupt fighter's guild, thieves guild should've looked more like a Mafia and the commentary of the mages guild should've focused more on the push into politics over academia with the guild doing underhanded things to any mage that didn't sign up with them. Instead we got factions that can do no wrong, no depth, no character

[glacial scarab]

It's actually hard to tell. They never give an amount they just say the Legions are recruiting locally. It never tells us x amount is new or if they are mostly recruits.

TES5 things are a lot more vague then compared to TES3 where they actually tell us only one Legion was recruiting and that was the Deathshead Legion over at Gnisis since the Legions on Vvardenfell (except Deathshead) were at full strength

Oblivion is well much harder to tell anything since there is barely anything outside of cities in general. Like the so called Breadbasket of Cyrodiil (heartlands with the Imperial City and the Nibenay Valley with Bravil) has one farm field and then county Chorrol being known for mines, timber, wool and mutton and yet I don't think they have single settlement that does any of them ingame.

[uncut hatch]

There's also the entire DB questline in Skyrim

It's roughly the same. Skyrim had 3 instances to showcase it while Morrowind had 4

Ok maybe if you count what the House Redoran guys say in Solstheim, it's 4

So yeah. Pretty much the same

[glacial scarab]

Oblivion and Skyrim are at the point where the devs really don't want to put effort into the Empire. It's a very awkward spot if they ever wanted to build things and the Empire and the Imperials are still generic blankslates.

Which is reminding me of something silly. Because they didn't want to write the Empire the Stormcloaks only issue with the Empire is the Thalmor. Which also leads to a line Ulfric says that the Bretons never had an issue with the Empire.

[uncut hatch]

Nah i think Skyrim put enough effort into the Empire side of things. Oblivion really fumbled it

And it did way more damage cos it was literally their heartland

It's like going to Paris and not seeing the Eiffel tower

They should've put more focus on the empire

In fact i think Oblivion is the only game with no interlapping poltical questline alongside the main quest

Except maybe Arena but that's like 20 years old

[glacial scarab]

Oblivion started the damage and Skyrim rather continued it after it set in stone as that's what the Imperials are now (though Dragonborn got a bit more silly given they also forgot Dragonborn Emperor).

[uncut hatch]

Oblivion should've had a civil war or dunmeri houses ala questlines alongside the main quest to flesh things out

But like there's genuinely nothing

[uncut hatch]

I won't say so. I think Skyrim reverted some of the damage Oblivion did. They're much closer to how they were in MW than Oblivion

Ofcourse it's still messed up but they definitely tried

There's only so much you can do with a game that's not even primarily focused on the empire.

[glacial scarab]

Only thing it changed was Legion armour.

[uncut hatch]

Nah. The general vibe is the same too. People are once again partway divided about the emperor or the future of the emperor instead of blindly worshipping him like Oblivion

[glacial scarab]

Oblivion did plan a policial questline with the Elder Council that wouldn't ended up with the player as the Duke of Colovia.

I think it involved that TES3 line about fake heirs or whatever it was and might have involved a TES1 character

[uncut hatch]

That's also something i found goofy about Oblivion. For some reason EVERYONE loves the emperor?

I don't remember a single soul criticizing the chain of command like they do in MW or Skyrim

[glacial scarab]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Unfinished_Quests

There was originally to be a questline based around the Elder Council that was cut because it detracted from the main quest (as described here). You would rise through the ranks of the nobility, eventually becoming the "Duke of Colovia". Count Ormellius Goldwine and the Nobility faction are said to be the only remnants of this questline. Some internal topic names still refer to Count Goldwine as a Duke.
Michael Kirkbride mentioned that Talin Warhaft, an Imperial general that appeared in Arena, was to play a large part in a cut questline.

Oblivion tried to do Divine Right but botched it so hard they threw Dragonborn at the Nords.

[uncut hatch]

"Because it detracted from the main questline"

Man

😭

[glacial scarab]

From Proventus

What's it mean to be Dragonborn?
"The only thing I remember is the old story of Tiber Septim being called Dragonborn by the Nords, before they switched sides and joined the Empire. No doubt those Greybeards up at High Hrothgar will talk your ear off about it."

From Tullius but written in 2009 and found in dialogue views files.

File 0001C798 (Dialogue views)
Custom Last User:kkuhlmann Date:9/22/2009

MQ104TulliusOutroA1: <b>Fort Hraggstad is destroyed, but the dragon is dead.

I knew I could count on Captain Metilius. But is there more you're not telling me?

MQ104TulliusOutroA2: <b>Turns out I may be something called "the Dragonborn

Rikke was just trying to explain this to me. What are you talking about?

MQ104TulliusOutroB2: <b>That's just what the men called me

Legate Rikke's been saying the same thing. She's quite worked up about it

[glacial scarab]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Oblivion_Fan_Interview_IV

There was a time that the Oblivion main quest featured a ton of that, dealing with the Elder Council, but we did end up cutting it while it was still on paper, in all our story reads, it really defocused the main quest from dealing with the daedra, which we wanted the focus to be. Anyway, I think the lack of actually seeing and dealing with the Elder Council is certainly one of my "I wish it had this" things, as we wrote some great stuff for it that just didn't make it in. It was the "nobility" faction line, where you made your way up and became "The Duke of Colovia" and sat on the Elder Council. The only remnant of that questline is the dead Duke in Castle Kvatch, which was to be the beginning of that line.

17. Oblivion had a long development time, but as George Lucas said in regards to movies, "Movies are never finished, they are just abandoned". What are some things you wish you could have put in Oblivion? What are some things that you are very glad to be able to put in?

On the PC, a small font option would top my list. And the Elder Council stuff I mentioned before. I think the differences in Colovia West vs the Nibenay East are far too subtle. A thousand other things as well, but at some point you have to step back and say "ok, the game does enough stuff" and finish it.

[uncut hatch]

This is actually hilarious because even the main questline barely focuses on fighting daedra. Half the time we're running around doing fetch quests

The one quest that has you fighting oblivion gates all across the map is optional lol

Oblivion really needed to keep it's ambitions in check. It was trying to be way too big for it's own good

[cosmic thistle]

A lot of the best stuff Bethesda makes for tes ends up getting cut

Like Skyrim being dragonborn vs dragons instead of "a Septim that disappeared hundreds of years ago comes back with an Akaviri invasion force including dragons"

[glacial scarab]

That was more an early idea if I recall

[cosmic thistle]

One of the worst things to happen of course is the Blades going from some of the most talented people in Tamriel becoming a spy network for the septims into a rather pathetic royal guard unit that just fumbled discovering a Tamriel wide daedra cult

[glacial scarab]

Fallout 3 released in 2008 and dialogue views has a remnant of the old main quest in 2009 for the whole Dragonborn-Dragons stuff.

[glacial scarab]

Blades are weird and TES is like new game = new job

TES2 :Knights and great warriors
Redguard (PGE1) Shock troops
TES3: spies
TES4: Bodyguarsd
TES5: Dragon hunters

[cosmic thistle]

Fwiw the dragonguard hunting dragons is pre-skyrim lore

[glacial scarab]

PGE1 had them riding them I think?

The Red Dragons that have come to represent the Empire and the Imperial City were originally Akaviri war mounts -pge1

[cosmic thistle]

Damn, that's way cooler than what we got AGAIN lol

[uncut hatch]

I mean they always kinda sucked and needed the player's help to do things

Pennitus Occulatus >>>>

Only exception is Caius Chadus

That man is peak. Wish he showed up in Oblivion

[cosmic thistle]

Eh, not really. Daggerfall there's like two members of the blades iirc, morrowind most of the blades members weren't quest important, Skyrim the blades are two members with Delphine actually proving she is good at what she does

It's oblivion that messes it all up by having the blades be incompetent

[glacial scarab]

Daggerfall Might be one? As only one appears with the other being unused. But my memory could be off

[heady wave]

Technically two, Lady Magnessen and the player (only if you consider working for the Blades as being a part of them). I don't think The Great Knight (Lord Magnessen) appears but Castle Llugwych is the Blades' local stronghold and there are many Blades in the region, they mount an assault against Woodborne Hall but fail spectacularly as the Totem of Tiber Septim isn't there.

[coarse mica]

You are a blade in daggerfall at least that's what's implied by The Warp in the West.

Also in oblivion depending on your interpretation.

And also potentially in Skyrim 😅

[coarse mica]

The oculatus are essentially just the blades functional redux for the Empire.

[hoary vessel]

As far as I can tell, the dragonborn isn't a blade in Skyrim.
But the fact that the blades are trying to help the dragonborn (as well as the fact that Uriel Septum is referred to as dragonborn in Oblivion) makes me think that the dragonborn is the true emperor

This could be a completely stupid thought though, I haven't finished Skyrim yet

[coarse mica]

||That's a decent reading yeah.||

[coarse mica]

||Being dragonborn doesn't automatically make one the true emperor but the blades appear to be sworn to a dragonborn and not the emperor. Hence why they're not loyal to the medes. The Septims just tended to produce dragonborn so the blades stuck around.||

[sharp lantern]

Yep, for most of Tamrielic history, being Dragonborn meant you could light the Dragonfires and wear the Amulet of Kings, so that also made you a legitimate Emperor. And since the Blades served the Dragonborn, that also made them serve the Emperor.

But they were never an arm of the Empire as an institution, they only aided it because they served its ruler.

[coarse mica]

And meaningfully they pick and choose obviously Uriel and Martin lived at the same time. LDB and Miraak etc. etc.

[cosmic thistle]

That's not actually true on the blades part. Numerous non-dragonborn leaders had members of the Blades under them. For example Cuhlecain. The original dragonguard fully dissolved after the death of Reman III, the name is just constantly reused by emperors in cyrodiil especially during the period between the death of Reman III and the rise of Tiber Septim. For instance Varen Aquilarios wasn't a dragonborn but created his own version of the dragonguard with Sai Sahan being in charge of it.

It's basically just a name. The Dragonguard under the Remans and the Blades under the Septims are two different groups.

[cosmic thistle]

Honestly the whole "sworn duty to the dragonborn" is really boring and makes no sense because that'd mean they shouldn't be around if there's no dragonborn to serve

[coarse mica]

"One can trace the Blades back to the fiercest warriors of Akavir, the Dragonguard. It was there, just as they would do in Tamriel, that they protected rulers and their kingdom."
(They formed from splinter groups of the remaining dragonguard)

The unfounded Knights-Dragonguard did briefly serve Cuhlecain but essentially immediately switched loyalty when they found tiber was the dragonborn, and Aquilarios was actively trying to become dragonborn and created a group using that name (the dragon guard) but... || Well that didn't work really and Sai might end up being sacrificed||
"Their conquest of the dragons complete, they only sought to protect the Dragonborn, and through him, the Empire."

They weren't known as the blades until the Septim dynasty so their origin is essentially moot.

As to there being no point in their existence without the dragonborn: Yes exactly, which is why they decline till what you see in Skyrim.

[cosmic thistle]

They should've just kept the blades as agents and spies, the entire dragonguard remaining after they were dissolved when Reman III died makes no sense

[coarse mica]

I don't think most of them did. I get the sense that the founders of the blades were essentially former Dragonguard zealots; they even had to artificially extend their lives to make it till Septim.

[cosmic thistle]

Yea I don't buy that lol

There was no remaining dragonguard

And they switched loyalty because Tiber killed Cuhlecain to seize the throne

[coarse mica]

They may have switched prior to cuhlecains death I think it actually became a point of friction but it's been a long time since I read that stuff. At anyrate the empire's perspective would probably be the remaining members of the dragonguard were basically just riding his coattails till they found tiber.

[sharp lantern]

I don't think any source states the Blades served Cuhlecain?

[sharp lantern]

At the end of TES IV they openly state they return to their old duty to look for a Dragonborn to serve.

[coarse mica]

Remanda, I believe.

I believe they're referring to the dragonguard as well*

[glacial scarab]

Even that is a change made by TES3.

TES2 were Knights and great warriors and then Redguard had them as Shock troops (PGE1).

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Generic_Dialogue

"They're a knightly order alright, but unlike any other order, which defines itself by its allegiance, the Blades' master is unknown. They are a completely enigmatic group."
"You shouldn't be asking about the Blades so openly. Everyone knows that they're made up of the best fighters in Tamriel, but no one knows the purpose for their existence. That makes them dangerous."

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/Cyrodiil

The high crafts of daikatanas and dragonscale armor came from Akavir, as did the banners and military dress of Septim's shock troops, the Blades.

[cosmic thistle]

I know, they're more interesting as spies and agents instead of knights sworn to protect the dragonborn

[coarse mica]

I sort of like the praetorian elements of them tbh.

[cosmic thistle]

The issue is the execution sucked when they moved more into being the emperor's bodyguards. Delphine was a bit of an improvement by being an actual spy but also the order serves like no real function in the post-septim era with no backing from the remnants of cyrodill's government and then the rise of the Medes Dynasty

So it becomes a weird case of they just exist despite no backing meaning no resources when they've lost all purpose and would've dissolved.

Like how the original dragonguard dissolved after the death of Reman III despite the Versidue-Shaie continuing the Reman empire for 300+ years

Now if they made the blades into a septimite cult in the fourth era that launched attacks on the dominion and Medes empire that would've been interesting

[glacial scarab]

They've been tied to the "Dragonborn" since PGE. Though PGE and later things have been weird.

They probably shouldn't not made them a Akaviri group and just made them something else and it's now spiralled out of control because it's tied to things they can't or won't touch (Akaviri and Cyrodiil)

[cosmic thistle]

See imo the Akaviri idea is interesting but it's the execution that's the problem. What would've been cool is if the grandmaster of the blades was a eons old Tsaesci bound by a magical pact to lead the order

[glacial scarab]

Akaviri can be interesting the problem is they're in a leave them mysterious part which doesn't help and contradicts what they do when the keep putting them ingame.

[cosmic thistle]

We don't even get Tsaesci in Rimmen in ESO which they founded and turned it into their own enclave in Tamriel

Honestly I'm kinda tired of Todd's "keep them mysterious" angle, it would be better to have them show up where it makes sense

[glacial scarab]

There's one but they're in full armour (the world boss) and has been fighting in that area for a hundred years I think?

"An insufferable Akaviri swordmistress, Vhysradue, planted her flag on the Hill of Shattered Swords about a century back. We thought she'd pass of old age eventually, but she's still up there, gloating and spitting challenges at anyone who wanders by."

[cosmic thistle]

She is basically just a taller imperial is my complaint, I'd rather see the beastfolk version

[glacial scarab]

They've stuggled with the snake aspect I find.

TES3 has like multiple choice in what they could be and then TES4 onwards it's all humanoids.

[coarse mica]

If they don't have cobra hoods what's the point?

[gaunt bear]

The Last Dragonborn: Challenge accepted. * unsheathes blade *

[full dome]

did pathrunax ever articulate what led to him choosing to fight his evil nature?

[uncut hatch]

No. That part's purposefully left vague for the dillema

[coarse mica]

^

[uncut hatch]

He might've genuinely changed because he felt bad for the men and mer OR he did it because it was the only way he could usurp Alduin's lordship

[coarse mica]

He does tell us that his elder brother trying to emulate their father was part of the reason he broke with him.

Or implies that Iirc

(Alduin brought this upon himself)
"Indeed. Alduin wahlaan daanii. His doom was written when he claimed for himself the lordship that properly belongs to Bormahu - our father Akatosh."

[uncut hatch]

I think this one's more indicative of his fate. Akatosh had to intervene and make a DB that could defeat Alduin once he started doing his thing

Essentially he wrote his doom when he tried going against Aka

[cosmic thistle]

Considering Alduin is necessary for the kalpic cycle I wonder what ramifications this might have now that he is gone gone

[coarse mica]

Yeah of course but his doom ended up coming about at least in part because of party snax
( I have no regrets. Alduin had to be destroyed.)
"Of course. Alduin wahlaan daanii. I would not have helped you if I thought otherwise,"

[cosmic thistle]

I think MK said this cycle is already the longest

[coarse mica]

He may well be woven back into the Kalpa eventually at least that's what the fan theories seem to suggest.

The etch tablets seem to suggest paarthurnax took pity on mankind*

[raw grail]

That'd be sick

[pastel sorrel]

Not necessarily.

He turned the kalpas, that doesn't mean he was needed for that.

[balmy salmon]

I'm doubtful that Alduin is truly gone, because the Dragonborn couldn't absorb his soul.

[pastel sorrel]

Potentially been absorbed by Akatosh, though it's intentionally left vague.

[slate shoal]

elder scrolls is funny to me bc of things like this

dragons and men fighting together to purge natives of their home
dragons act upon their nature
men scream mommy
men get help from the gods

[cosmic thistle]

Honestly I wish we had that dragons were common in the third era back, in the first PGE there was even mention the Imperial City often saw dragons flying around and chilling around lake Rumare. The Man vs Dragon story is just kinda dull.

[coarse mica]

Someone recently pointed out to me that it was actually a Dragon, Elf, and Man vs Elf(?) and Man (and later dragon) war. And that there may not have been as many dragons involved as it might seem.

[sharp lantern]

How much land do you guys think the An-Xileel (or at least, Argonian clans) still hold in Morrowind as of TES V?

[cosmic thistle]

Very little, most likely just the land they lost in the Arnesian war

The idea that Black Marsh hold huge areas of Morrowind is really silly because Black Marsh wouldn't have the ability to hold it for long, it takes a lot of work and manpower to hold territory which often leads to pockets of resistance building up. There's also issues of maintaining it with supplies and infrastructure. Argonians as a culture doesn't build massive cities, they prefer simple life which is shown off in ESO. Black Marsh also doesn't have the agricultural power because the region isn't designed for wide scale farming which we know because the Empire's attempt to build plantations in it failed horribly

We also know House Redoran built a lot of outposts and settlements along its border and that the argonian patrols mentioned by TG members in Skyrim is most likely either caravans moving through black marsh and up to Morrowind because going into Morrowind from Cyrodiil is a hard thing to do or the patrols are skirmish parties which we also know from Dragonborn dialogue

There's also the issue that Black Marsh was hit extremely hard by the Umbriel crisis

[raw grail]

I'm not even sure their goal was really to occupy land anyways

[cosmic thistle]

I think people just auto assume war means conquering and holding land despite that's never really shown, like some people think the empire lost parts of cyrodill in the great war despite nothing stating that

We've had numerous wars in our own world that were more about ideological differences than conquering

Hell, it used to be common for a war to start solely because one ruler insulted another

Even the Arnesian war was more about a temple priest, St. Roris, being executed by Argonians than it was about conquest

[shrewd wigeon]

https://audius.co/chiefdijon/lesson-three-praise-the-sun-ft-maiq-the-liar-party-boy

Its lore

🙂🙏🙌🫠

[cosmic thistle]

Nah

[proven terrace]

Hi! If the dragonborn swears their soul to all available gods, what happens when they die?
Do the gods share it? Rip it apart? Take turns?

[upper field]

Someone wrote a funny fanfic about that.

It ended with Sheogorath leading the LDB to Sovngarde after he wed Azura and Mehrunes Dagon.

But it started with the LDB seeing Sithis and Hircine arguing over who gets the soul of Astrid's husband.

[spring apex]

The dragonborn should be an aspect/blessing of Akatosh, which means that his soul would return to Akatosh at the end of the dragonborns life in terms of priority. maybe thats why its fine to promise your soul all willy nilly

[upper field]

What's funny is the the same more or less happens to the Champion of Cyrodiil, except they supposably mantle as the new Sheogorath.

[spring apex]

Anyone knows if the creation of Aurbis was due to Anu and Padomay interplay or the interplay between their souls Anui-El and Sithis? And were the souls created after Nir perished and the 12 worlds were created or after the 12 worlds were destroyed and Nirn was created?

I would assume it would be before Nirn was created since Anu and Padoway were cast out of Time, but I cant tell if it was before the battle for Nir or after the creation of the 12 worlds, since Anu created Anui-El to self reflect

[pastel sorrel]

All different narratives about whatever generally happened, trying to nail it down to "what definitively happened" will still only end with more questions

Whether it's Anu and Padomay (the latter of which might not be real), or Anuiel and Sithis, or Auriel and Lorkhan, there is a general repeating motif of two splitting and recombining in various ways

Clavicus Vile is another example funnily enough, with Barbas.

The Aurbis is broadly considered the interaction of the two major powers at the core, whatever specific names and how far up the chain they actually are. It's unclear if Anuiel and Sithis actually factor in as a separate layer (some say Sithis and Padomay are the same thing too).

Such is the nature of the Dawn that there isn't really a set linear narrative, since it's before such things could really take hold. Linearity is for the Mundus.

[pastel sorrel]

Not necessarily. Miraak was Mora's.

And Sheogorath had Pelagius III

And Wolf Queen Potema was still around to be summoned back to unlife.

Or for that matter, any of the myriad dragons slain by non-dragonborn who just remained within their bones.

[cosmic thistle]

For most part we just know that werewolves and vampires are destined to go somewhere, lorewise vampires have to bargain for their souls according to Skyrim and Morrowind, Werewolves are destined to go to the Hunting Grounds. We also have Herma-Mora maybe being able to have a claim.

But the truth is whatever you want, if you want your character's soul to go to Sheogorath or Aetherius or just nowhere you make that decision. For instance my last character in Skyrim was a lich that fundamentally hated the idea of an afterlife so she worked towards making a way to never truly lose ownership of her soul.

Your characters are your own

[cosmic thistle]

That's not how it works, for instance Reman and Tiber were both dragonborns and became gods in their own right. We have nothing saying that dragons are wholely connected to Akatosh, we only know that Akatosh had a hand in making them.

It's also why we need to offer up a filled black soul gem to Molag Bal to get our soul back if we're a vampire or the fact that being a werewolf is entwined with the soul instead of being a disease. It should also be noted that being a champion of a prince doesn't mean we're actually a servant of them, the princes hand out their boons for reasons that are their own. Getting Azura's star for instance doesn't make you a servant of Azura or getting the ebony mail doesn't make you a servant of Boethiah

For instance Mephala handing you the Ebony Blade could be because she wants the strife and discourse that it creates to spread. While Sanguine and Sheogorath just want to give out their relics for the fun of it because they like causing problems.

Oh and we also have the emperors who are by birth dragonborns whose souls went into the amulet of kings actually

[slender latch]

For those interested in the original of a lot of TES lore The Imperial Library has recently published nearly 60 pages of the original D&D campaign that the developers ran during the creation of Daggerfall.

[raw grail]

There's like, 4? Dragonborn Heroes in Sovngarde alone, which demonstrates pretty clearly even within Skyrim's own presentation that Dragonborn souls do not return to Akatosh

[raw grail]

^^ Just replying to this for the ping in case you find that relevant

[raw grail]

I should preface this by pointing out that I'm taking into account some unofficial lore (the Loveletter to the Fifth Era), but I don't think the specific sentence this relies on the most is controversial. It also just lines up with the rest of what we've got on this tbh. Anyways, my understanding of the hierarchy of where a soul goes is something like:
Being soul trapped and offered to a specific god (see soul shriven and the soul cairn) > being sacrificed to a specific god (see Azura's quest in Oblivion) > oaths and pacts in which the soul is sworn (see the Grey Host in ESO, which even has werewolves who have been sworn to Coldharbour) > Curses of the soul which realign the soul toward an afterlife, such as lycanthropy (see the Companions in Skyrim and Gwendis' dialogue in ESO) > more personal alignments of the soul (e.g. faith or dedication) toward a given afterlife through their respective Daedric Prince(s), or through cultural afterlives like Sovngarde

I doubt some of these lines are perfectly crisp considering it's ultimately a matter of the alignment of the soul, as the Loveletter describes. The soul and afterlives can also be an incredibly nebulous topic to research and study. This is probably more complicated than I know

Death results in reappropriation of spirit towards its aligned AE—either to the god-planet Aedra or the Principalities of Oblivion.

[coarse mica]

Necessarily* mind.

[glacial scarab]

I think it's a generic line that could be said by any of them?

I don't know if the dialogue is limited but I'll need to remember to check later

[pastel sorrel]

No, very specifically there's a handful of NPC's in Sovngarde that have that additional line they can say.

It's not generic, it's intentional.

[cosmic thistle]

Just because the NPCs are generically named does not mean what they say should be disregarded

[raw grail]

Wulfharth is also said to go to Sovngarde, and nothing ever says, demonstrates, or even implies Dragonborns go to Akatosh, while everything we have suggests they go to afterlives as per normal (unless absorbed by a dragon or Dragonborn). It is technically correct that Dragonborn souls do not "necessarily" return to Akatosh, but it seems like an unnecessary caveat when it's so thoroughly unsupported

Genuinely the idea was made up, I don't know by who but there is no source for it

[coarse mica]

Well wouldn't that fall under the aligned Aedra? I mean maybe I'm wrong or Maybe you're making a distinction between them doing so specifically because they are dragonborn?

[raw grail]

I've looked hard and I know several others who have too. The closest you can do is some weird stuff with a Loremaster's archive that came out well after the idea emerged, which isn't even talking about Dragonborns, but is talking about a soul being forced out of a draconic "corpse" and speculates it may return to Akatosh

[raw grail]

Going to a place based on soul alignment, which is fairly dynamic, is exactly how a mortal soul works

Defaulting to Akatosh is demonstrably wrong

If anything we'd have an easier time making an argument for defaulting to Sovngarde, but I think that's a hasty leap personally

I think there could be an argument that we'd rejoin the Dominion plane(t) but I don't know how exactly that gets reconciled with Imperial Heaven and the Oblivion and Skyrim and kinda ESO convention of Aetherius being the location of cultural afterlives

[raw grail]

Sorry. I misspoke. That we'd have a higher propensity for the AKHAT Dominion Plane(t) in the absence of faith in another afterlife or such

"Default" perhaps in the sense of "if there's no other pulls"

I'm skeptical still but thinking about it in the Loveletter's terms it could be defensible

In that case I'd be wondering about the LKHANic pull from being a Void Ghost tho

[coarse mica]

That's fair. I also didn't add necessarily to like be an ass. I just wanted to clarify that dragonborn's could conceivably still return to Akatosh regardless of what their default is. (And I think that's true?) Like I don't have a great concept of what the "Heaven," is like despite being somewhat of a dragon fanatic.

[raw grail]

That's because no Imperial has ever clarified what it is

Oh this is the bgs server, I thought we were in TIL for some reason

Nvm then

[uncut hatch]

Heh

You thought this was the skrim server didn't ya

[coarse mica]

My head canon is now that heaven exists on the planet aka and it is a giant never-ending disco.

[raw grail]

Imperial Library, rather

[uncut hatch]

Ah. That's understandable too

[raw grail]

And no worries, you didn't come off rude, I was just expressing I felt the correction was inaccurate on the basis that it's, well, baseless

They could conceivably but there's no need for a caveat imo. Even after considering it through the lens of the Loveletter, the mechanic is still fundamentally the same as other mortals, since it was written at a time when mortals generally went to the Dominion Plane(t)s (or planes of Oblivion) as an afterlife. At best that'd make being Dragonborn more of a predisposed alignment (such as we see with vampires and lycanthropes) but still mechanically going to afterlives in the same way mortals do

[coarse mica]

Honestly I just felt the wording was a bit off. I... How do I put it? Like I guess it almost seemed like you were saying you definitive proof they never returned to Aka (I think arguing about proving a negative is somewhat moot) but the reason is I qualified the statement was because I was confident that's not what you meant. Kapeesh?

[raw grail]

I was arguing there's absolutely 0 evidence they ever return to Akatosh and all the evidence we have places them in Sovngarde or being consumed by another dragon soul

They may rejoin Akatosh in the way normal mortals sometimes rejoin Akatosh, if the Dominion Plane(t)s are still afterlives in any capacity, but as Skyrim and Oblivion presents it there is no "Akatosh afterlife" and afterlives are more based on cultures, at most with a ruler of the afterlife, often with multiple gods interacting with the afterlife (like Shor, Tsun, Kyne, and Orkey all having parts to play with Sovngarde)

The idea that they "rejoin Akatosh" in any other way is baseless. I didn't say never - because that's a binary - but I also wouldn't say "mortals never rejoin Akatosh" either. Falmeri religion even believes in becoming one with Auriel, as a friend of mine was recently talking about in a post she made

And in that case, we're back to Dragonborns being no different from mortals besides, at best, a speculative but still largely evidence-less implication they might, maybe sometimes rejoin Akatosh thanks to a predisposition in the alignment of their soul, in ways ultimately similar to other mortals

[lapis thorn]

You know I'm sure this question has been asked but I wanna know, what happens if a person becomes devoted to multiple Daedric Princes? Like in examples of the main characters of the current games, but for context lets say I am an adventurer who has earned the favor of both Meridia and Azura, been dubbed champion by them and have been blessed by their artifacts. What would happen to me when I die? Do the Daedric Princes debate on who gets what? Is it on the basis of first-dibs? Is the soul just split in two so now there's two of me, or my soul is just ripped asunder making me nothing more than soul essence? Do I get a choice after I die in what domain I go to? What is the exact protocol for when a mortal serves multiple Daedra personally and sworn their soul to them?

I know there's the Dunmer who have now more than recently reverted back into worshiping the daedra with the Reclaimations, but I am uncertain if the Dumner has an afterlife unless they worship one of the specific three Reclaimations but what if they worship two of the three?

[cosmic thistle]

Dunmer have an afterlife considering ancestors aren't fully thrilled to be summoned but are duty bound to help their descendants by religion. We don't know much about afterlife entirely in TES or even if worshiping a prince actually sends you to their realm after death.

[coarse mica]

Unfortunately I think the answer as has been discussed is it's not super cut and dry especially because things that happen to you might also affect where you go regardless of the faith you hold.

[mint osprey]

Googler will correct me if im wrong but here is the answer.
Been a champion doesn't automatically send a soul to daedra. There must be a contract or something. For example, if you become a nightingale you agree to serve for Nocturnal as a ghost. If someone promised their soul to several daedras though, then there are few options, but these are theories and we dont know for sure.
Strongest daedra will take a soul or they will divide it in parts. As i remember, something like this happened to one guy in ESO

[uncut hatch]

i just learned about jills in the elder scrolls

Are they similar to the hounds of tindalos?

[raw grail]

I don't think there is a "strongest Daedra" exactly, but yeaaaaah I'm not sure we have any good ideas on what happens when several claims are made at the same 'tier of priority'

I'm curious who the ESO person is! Do you remember their name or have a UESP link?

[raw grail]

Since we don't explicitly know, that gives you room to work how you want with it. I'll respond rq to the message I had earlier talking about the order of operations here

[raw grail]

Okay. So assuming that we have 2+ claims at about the oath/pact tier for example, I think that the most reasonable ideas we've had as a community are a) splitting the soul or holding some sort of contest or tournament or whatever. We've heard of souls being multiple places or split, iirc. I don't know who Drac is talking about, but I do vaguely remember something in ESO surrounding Caldwell being split in a different context than we're talking about rn. We've also heard of situations like Sheogorath and Vaermina making bets and taking turns inspiring and tormenting an artist. In neither case were they deciding where the soul goes after death, but both are very easy to translate to that scenario. Personally, I think a contest is a lot more fun narratively, especially if you're writing or smth instead of just imagining

[coarse mica]

I think that's generally correct. There are clearly some Daedra who were perceived as more of a threat or as being more successful with there goals than others but neither of them are particularly active at the moment and both were ganged up on by other Daedra to insure they couldn't pull ahead.

One of the things that keeps the Daedra in check and prevents large discrepancies in power is that they're all jealous of each other. So when one becomes special they kind of zero in and tear that one down.

I hate this phrase but like crabs in a pot esque

[raw grail]

And I'm personally super skeptical of claims that Jygg was the strongest, since it relies on him getting ganked doing something that would've gotten any of the others ganked

Imo he's not the most powerful, he was just the only one crazy enough to test the others instead of sticking to his own domain

Fa-Nuit-Hen seems to concur

Lord Fa-Nuit-Hen says, "What makes a Prince a Prince? A broad and well-defined sphere of influence that enables clarity of purpose and focused expression of will. My sphere of influence is well-defined but not particularly broad, so I am a mere demiprince—an entity of power and consequence far outstripping that of any mortal, but trivial compared to the Greater Princes. I have ambitions, of course, like every Ada, but I keep them within my sphere, lest I suffer the same fate as you-know-who."

Even he's worried about what would happen to him if he overstepped the boundaries of his domain, and he's not even a Prince

[coarse mica]

I would think that a lesser prince would be more worried precisely because it might be a power mismatch.

[raw grail]

My point precisely - the power difference isn't why the Princes dealt with Jyggalag, his actions and his desire to spread his domain beyond its borders across Oblivion is why

Any Lord of any power would get the same reaction, even if they were significantly less powerful and had significantly less hope of invading others without being single-handedly wiped out

[raw grail]

Also yeah totally agreed

[coarse mica]

I mean Dyus says the other princes feared his power, I think it's probably a combo of that he was crazy enough to try it and that he might be successful. But I acknowledge that like any prince who tried it probably would've had something similar happen.
Ithelia probably was more powerful than the others but it's probably not relevant any longer as she's not an active player.

[raw grail]

I think Ithelia might be more powerful in a certain light. She's weird. Jyggalag I don't think we have anything really suggesting that. Even the claim that it was his power is a) suspect because it's coming from someone in blatant support of him who puts all of his faith in Jyggalag's predictive capabilities, and b) may not even be referring to "quantity" of power so much as the "nature" of power

Jyggalag's sphere of perfect order is antithetical to the chaotic, dynamic nature of Princes, or indeed Aurbis, and drove him to his own defeat

Truth in Sequence says similarly

[coarse mica]

I think that's right my thought process was always that jygg was more organized than the others because he's an order god rather than a chaos god. It wasn't that he was more powerful in an absolute sense just that he was less diffuse.

[raw grail]

They are the Anti-Gears that turn counter to the Nameless Will. Servants of the Padomaic untruth whose nature is void. Of the Daedra, only the Gray Prince of Order knew his nature, and he went mad in the knowing.

The Daedra fear wisdom and order, you see? And thus do they fear the Clockwork God above all others. Where others see dark crowns numbered ten and six, Sotha Sil sees shadows and nothing more.

[raw grail]

Yes, yes, that's where my head is too. A lot of people, I think, tend toward the "he is more powerful" argument because a lot of we nerds like power scaling, so it can be hard for me to tell which way someone is going sometimes

Sounds like we're on the same page on that tho

[pastel sorrel]

The daedra are ironically renowned for their order just as much as chaos

See the uniformed regiments of dremoras under Bal and Dagon

Or the princes themselves, whose egos keep them stable but arguably archaic

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Crafting_Motif_63:_Dremora_Style
When possible variations in physical appearance are unlimited, it is an act of supreme will and discipline to confine oneself to a uniform semblance. For we proud Dremora, who regard all other Daedra with well-earned disdain, self-expression is nothing but vulgar self-indulgence. Heed these regulations, kynfolk, and don't disgrace your clanmates with unauthorized variations—or it's the scathe-rings for you, and don't think otherwise.

[coarse mica]

There is that bit about them being unable to change and that limiting them isn't there?

I hadn't really thought about it being rendered in the context of chaos but it is definitely an anupad thing going on.

Well the real thing is that a lot of the Daedra like chaos because it causes opportunities to climb the ladder I think, albeit a lot of lesser daedra can't escape their nature.

[pastel sorrel]

But as I once spoke of the Rainmaker, the needs of the people change, and those that provide guidance to them must also change. While it may seem strange to imply that our fore-images, being Daedra, were adverse to change, they were, and they are. In this they are very alike to the Aedra in their fundaments. While born of Padhome, they are of too much ego to give up their realms entirely, especially for altruism, which is perhaps what they most hate.

[mint osprey]

I don't remember, i've seen it in a video

[fresh oracle]

I dont think elder scrolls 6 is being made

[pastel sorrel]

https://tenor.com/view/bold-strategy-dodgeball-cotton-strategy-tactics-gif-4957668

[coarse mica]

Stupendous reply

[distant forge]

do fairies or pixies exist in the lore?

[proven moss]

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/faerie

Daggerfall had a book about them. They aren't frequently mentioned though - only a small handful of texts use the word

[raw grail]

There's Nixads tho!

[sharp lantern]

There's also gremlins

[pastel sorrel]

and mind goblins

[coarse mica]

Any mods about?

[pastel sorrel]

<@&784552354183381052> spambot

[unkempt tide]

Got it

[waxen burrow]

LegoLoonitic, there are Spriggens that almost seem like fairies in Elder Scrolls, they roam the forest especially around ruins like in Skyrim with a green mystical aura, and they tend to spring back to life through healing and you have to kill the Spriggen again.

[low sapphire]

Hiya all

A question: what is the name for the entire world within the Elder Scrolls universe: Nirn or Aedra?

[raw grail]

Nirn is the planet, sometimes interchangeable with Mundus. Aedra are a subset of gods who sacrificed themselves to create Nirn

"Our Ancestors"
(I had a way longer answer but realized it was mostly irrelevant to the actual question)

Aedra did CREATE Nirn, and Nirn is sometimes made out to be formed from (sometimes just parts of) their bodies or corpses. My favorite part of this is in a loading screen, one sec

According to the "Speluncus Tamrielicum," the reason Nirn is seemingly riddled with natural caverns is that, like a living body, the world is veined with a system of nodes and capillaries that once pulsed with the divine essence of the Aedra who created it

[low sapphire]

wow!

That's an amazing answer

Thanks for the answer 🙂 That was immensely helpful

[low sapphire]

So creative of them to do that for lore

[mint osprey]

I thought Nirn is a planet and Mundus is a whole mortal realm that includes Nirn, Masser, Secunda and Aedra planets

Like everything that is shown in Imperial observatory

[sharp lantern]

Correct

[cosmic thistle]

Yea the name for everything including Oblivion and Aetherius is called the Aurbis or the Gray Maybe

Which is also just Nirn

[raw grail]

That's also true, yes

Well actually I don't know any sources that include those in Mundus but it fits well enough. Mundus is also used as a synonym of Nirn sometimes tho

[coarse mica]

Aurbis (is the Universe) in the universe exists (in roughly descending order):

Aetherius(~Edge of Reality),
Oblivion (~Space/Hell)
Mundus (~The "elemental plane" of the world)
Nirn (The Planetoid World)
Tamriel (The Main Continent)

As googler mentioned above a lot of these terms are treated as synonymous.

[pastel sorrel]

Nirn and the Mundus are often synonyms simply because the former is what the latter consists of, though it's still worth differentiating the world itself from the reality it's housed in (see the Planemeld which would've put Nirn in Coldharbour instead).

[cosmic thistle]

There's also the void which is supposed to be beyond Aetherius and contain realms independent of Aetherius and Oblivion

[coarse mica]

"The great expanse between the planes of the Aurbis is endless night, the Outer Darkness of the Void. Some few things, blessedly few things, live in this endless nothingness. And they are strange beyond imagining."

[cinder hemlock]

Oh man spicy lore theory from Wes Johnson here about the Vestige and the Last Dragonborn

His headcanon is that the LDB hears a slower version of Hermaeus Mora than the Vestige does because the dialog is psychic and the LDB is less atuned to that kind of power

[cosmic thistle]

Yea that makes since given the Vestige is basically a daedra in a mortal shell

[lyric adder]

Is crossing a border considered a great crime, equal to death sentence, at the beginning of skyrim?

Or does the empire just on hyper paranoia and treat anyone (even minor lawbreaker) as possible great threat to war?

[heady wave]

Probably not. The Imperials are under the impression you're Stormcloaks, at the very least. Lokir was either caught trying to steal a horse, or was in the general area before attempting to do that and was caught as a Stormcloak sympathizer as well (considering Hadvar actually has his name on the list).

The Imperial Captain was also just very arbitrary - she didn't care if you were a Stormcloak or not (since you weren't on Imperial lists, if that's what that vague comment means). It probably wasn't worth military tribunal when it's easy enough to just kill you, especially while Ulfric was there. You're just a statistic of the Civil War and probably an insurgent. Probably.

[lyric adder]

Well then, my reason for siding with stormcloak is very simple and very justified then. "They try to kill me for a crime i don't deserve, so i kill them."

Serve them right, and let them fall and burnt, along with their ideology

[heady wave]

Yeah, the intro is very stacked against the Empire from the get-go. Having the player involved in an unfair execution is an easy way to make them far more susceptible to general demagoguery from the start.

Principal reason you'd side with the Empire is seeing either some of the corrupt/incompetent Stormcloak Jarls you institute, or the bigotry of Stormcloak leaders and the troubles the Stormcloaks cause where they go (e.g. Carlotta Valentina complains that Stormcloak Guards are much more crass).

Which is pretty limiting roleplay-wise, as I'd like to have a decently fresh state without having my character do mental gymnastics to like the Empire. But the intro is really well-made, IMO. ~(Well, not mechanically cough 100 mods cough)

[cosmic thistle]

There's the entire point it was the legion rushing the stormcloak execution because the thalmor were trying to stop it since they need Ulfric and his uprising to stay alive as much as possible to divert resources

You don't have to do mental gymnastics to support the empire. There's a ton about why the stormcloaks aren't good like corruption, following a kingslayer, the silver-bloods, the incompetency of the jarls of winterhold and dawnstar, the jarl replacements being

1. A prominent family that wants to turn the reachfolk into a slave race
2. A mine owner that holds contempt for Morthal and is in it for the possibility of getting another hold
3. A paranoid old man in Falkreath
4. A bitter man who uses his position as Jarl of whiterun to cause problems for a rival noble family

Empire has it's downsides too but the stormcloaks have way more

For instance a bad winter can knock out most of skyrim's food production which puts them at the mercy of it's more agricultural focused neighbors like Cyrodiil and Morrowind, it has no allies because Ulfric only reached out to High Rock which can end up with the Bretons and Redguards using this to take back conquered territory the Nords took during the various wars when Tharn was pretending to be the Emperor

There's actually a lot in the game about how the stormcloaks are doomed by various factors

Meanwhile on the empire side you have

1. Winterhold is run by a jarl who wants to improve relations with the college and rebuild
2. Dawnstar is given to an ex-legion legate that wants to improve life
3. Windhelm is given to a person who wants to improve living conditions

[heady wave]

I don't know the likelihood of that. I know what the Dossier says, but Elenwen and only 2 High Elf guards arrive, and immediately dip after communing with Tullius. They also took their sweet time actually killing the prisoners lol considering what they did to Lokir, I kinda wish they did some form of Medieval firing squad with the archers.

[heady wave]

yeah i agree. good to mention that the Imperials have occasional bad eggs, like Tullius' supposed massacre (if Ulfric isn't an unreliable narrator during Season Unending LOL) and Maven controlling Riften.* it's still just rough to justify on a character level b/c personal experiences can make-or-break a person, almost being killed is a very important time in one's life.

* I still dunno why they went with Maven. The Jarl's son is in bedroom arrest b/c he's an Imperial supporter, he'd be an INFINITELY better decision for Jarl. But I guess that's just how it is for Riften LOL

[glacial scarab]

Honestly the Jarls disowned son would also play into the war tearing families apart because they never have to time to show a family on both sides of the war.

And Maven is too tied to the Thieves Guild to get exiled and that she works better as the power behind the throne.

[glacial scarab]

If I recall with the intro.

Stormcloaks picked up near Darkwater Crossing
Lokir was most likely picked up at the same time (only way he really makes sense if he's picked up at the same time as otherwise they wouldn't know he's a horse thief and would leave him alone or would kill him to keep their location a secret from any Stormcloaks investigating)
Tullius tries to drag Ulfric to Cyrodiil
Avalanche at Pale Pass
Player was picked up near Pale Pass after said avalanche
Tullius turns around and rushes to Helgen for a rushed execution.

[heady wave]

ikr? im sure Maven and her cronies would push for her with Imperial liberation but it feels like so much more could've been done with the son in that regard.

[cosmic thistle]

Maven's influences are stated to range further than Riften. Like she'll mention having friends in the empire so it makes sense she'd influence peddle to gain the jarldom, helps also that literally everyone in Riften's government is basically in her pocket and Laila is too dense to notice

Also yea the whole massacre thing Ulfric said doesn't really make sense because the civil war is a year old at the start of the game and we see literally no signs of such massacre

[uncut hatch]

They thought you were a clock.
You were after all caught right next to the leader of them.

It's also the Captain's fault. Tullius was busy arguing with Elenwen and she just orders your execution at random

Should've atleast told him that you're not on the list

[glacial scarab]

The player wasn't with the Stormcloaks. Like in terms of capture they were not in the same place

[uncut hatch]

Nah actually the dialogue's just inconsistent about where you were captured

Some say you were caught near darkwater crossing.
Some say you were caught crossing the border

That's a whole another can of worms

[glacial scarab]

Ralof: "I can't remember when I last slept... Where to start? Well, the news you heard about Ulfric was true. The Imperials ambushed us outside Darkwater Crossing. Like they knew exactly where we'd be. That was... two days ago, now. We stopped in Helgen this morning, and I thought it was all over. Had us lined up to the headsman's block and ready to start chopping."

Ralof is inconsistent at the start with the ambush line but the player isn't with the Stormcloaks.

The issue is Ralof being inconsistent. He literally says both

[uncut hatch]

Yeah my best guess is it's a leftover from the original intro before they changed it cos' it makes no sense

Both Ralof and Hadvar are inconsistent about it

The thief also says we were caught because of the clocks

The whole thing is a mess

[glacial scarab]

Ralof:

Ralof: "Hey, you. You're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right? Walked right into that Imperial ambush, same as us, and that thief over there."

Also Ralof

We were on our way to Darkwater Crossing, in the south of Eastmarch. The Imperials were waiting for us

Oh, right, they said you were captured crossing the border

The issue seems to be the quest. The Helgen part is a mess while Before the Storm keeps to its story.

Ralof also throws out "Military Governor" for Tullius but that never comes up anywhere else because TES has given up on the Imperials.

[uncut hatch]

Also i didn't say the player is a clock. I said they mistook you for a clock

You were just caught next to them if some of the inconsistent dialogue is to be believed

[glacial scarab]

I do know there's an earlier version that has the Stormcloak lines (Imperial ones were never recorded with new Voice actors so someone ended up finding their remnants in the german VA files).

[uncut hatch]

Yeah. It's definitely the original version clashing with the final version

But what can you do atp. It's screwed and we just have to take it as is

[glacial scarab]

I know the lines are actually different in the older intro.

I think I recall something about Ralof saying there won't be any Jarls anymore just martial law (about to watch a video on the mod that restores is). Though that line never made sense because with TES deleting Governors everyone rules themselves like the armistice is around

The old intro had the player be mixed up with the Stormcloaks. Which means they redid before the storm dialogue to have the player not be with the Stormcloaks but the new intro kinda forgot that with Ralof.

[uncut hatch]

And they also forgot the location of the ambush because why did they randomly capture the player at the border if they were at darkwater crossing

Did they take a random u turn to the border to solely catch the player before heading to helgen?

[glacial scarab]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPsG2J1mUg4

[uncut hatch]

And where did that thief come from. How was he stealing a horse if he was captured in the ambush

[glacial scarab]

It's never explained why the player is even picked up. (Will write a longer version just need to grab sources.. also to remind myself of the exact lines).

[uncut hatch]

Well if the later lines are to believed it's because you were caught trying to cross the border.
And if the thief's lines are to be believed it's because they think you're clocks

Actually you know what.
Who even is the thief

Where did he randomly come from. What horse was he even stealing

[glacial scarab]

Oh, right, you were caught trying to cross the border into Skyrim, weren't you?" - Hadvar

"You haven't heard of the civil war in Skyrim? I guess down in Cyrodiil people have other things to worry about." - Hadvar

Pale Pass is all but closed due to avalanches in the mountains https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Imperial_Missive_(Fort_Neugrad)

Like is the player picked up purely because some Soldiers wanted to save someone from an avalanche and then the generic Captain botches things? Because why was the player even picked up from Pale Pass? We know the intro starts from it but why the player is picked up is unknown.

Lokir is a weird one. The Legion know he's a horse thief due to the list but we don't know where he was picked up.
Personal theory I have is Lokir tried to steal a Legion horse while the Legion was ambushing the Stormclaoks as it's the only way I can make sense for him as they wouldn't pick him up at other places when they're trying to get away with the Stormcloak leader. The List for me at least points to the player being separate from the Stormcloaks and Lokir because they didn't get time to do that.

I have to wonder if some of the changes to the intro was having the player be new to Skyrim then some other ambush because I can get the idea of wanting the player to be new to Skyrim but also like the Stormcloaks with Ulfric would make no sense to be at Pale Pass.

[sharp lantern]

I always read it as the LDB being captured at the border with Cyrodiil, whereas everyone else was captured at Darkwater Crossing.

Would also explain our absence on the executioner's list.

Both Ralof and Hadvar are surprised when we tell them we don't know about the civil war, because surely "even in Cyrodiil" people must have heard of it.

[pastel sorrel]

The main issue is that we're coming down from a pass that does not connect to Darkwater at all

You gotta go further north to find that southern path around the Throat

It's like he went down to Cyrodiil and then came back up to go to Helgen. It is known he redirected them to Helgen, but it's a little messy how it's presented.

[glacial scarab]

The issue is really Ralof during Unbound. What is odd is that we know there's different writing from when they changed the intro but Unbound for whatever reason wants to keep the old in the same ambush as the Stormcloaks despite having moved away from it in the rest of the game (also his nonsense line of Military Governor).

Unbound
Ralof:
Ralof: "Hey, you. You're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right? Walked right into that Imperial ambush, same as us, and that thief over there."

Before the Storm
Also Ralof
We were on our way to Darkwater Crossing, in the south of Eastmarch. The Imperials were waiting for us

Oh, right, they said you were captured crossing the border

[shell basin]

To be honest, when it comes to the Jarl replacements, the reverse happens in Riften: Laila Law-Giver is actually the honest one there, albeit blinkered - she's one of the "honourable" Stormcloak supporters, while the pro-Imperial Maven Black-Briar really deserves to die of metal poisoning. (i.e. three swords through the stomach).

And in Falkreath... Dengeir is a bitter old bigot, but Siddgeir is a corrupt foppish dandy only in it for the perks and bribes. Honestly, neither of them is any good, they only serve to show that (a) the Stormcloak/Imperial split can even wreck families and (b) both sides are quite happy to put a puppet on the throne.

That being said, the Imperial candidate in Dawnstar, Brina Merilis, is clearly better than Jarl Skald... and with Winterhold, who really cares since there's not much left of it? Although Kraldar is probably a better bet than Korir, he does seem to want to improve relations with the College instead of blaming them.

[cosmic thistle]

Oh no Laila is awful because she acts all high, mighty and lawful but is so blind to the open corruption in Riften that she speaks highly of Maven who is the source of the corruption. Maven basically already rules Riften, Laila just sits on the throne.

like it's arguably worse to be unable to see the corruption while still giving the source of it a regular seat at your dinner table than to know about it than do nothing.

[coarse mica]

That might be more like Ralof just viewing him as oppressive (he's someone who's de facto in charge and was not elected) he's just name calling rather than naming his official title.

It seems most likely that they ambushed the storm cloaks and rounded up everyone with Lokir either being a known horse thief prior or trying to steal a horse to escape. They just assert that you were trying to cross the border that doesn't necessarily mean that's the reality.

[glacial scarab]

As far as we can tell dialogue defaults as the player coming from Cyrodiil also helps that the intro starts on the road from Pale Pass. Ralof has to overhear Legionnaires talking of it and he doesn't really say otherwise for the player. Both Hadvar and Ralof later talk of the player not hearing about the Civil War down in Cyrodiil if you don't know the Stormcloaks.

Oh, right, you were caught trying to cross the border into Skyrim, weren't you? You're not kidding. Ulfric's the leader of the Stormcloaks - you know, the traitors trying to break Skyrim away from the Empire." - Hadvar

"You haven't heard of the civil war in Skyrim? I guess down in Cyrodiil people have other things to worry about." - Hadvar

Oh, right, they said you were captured crossing the border. Still, I'm surprised you haven't heard of Ulfric. He's our leader - the leader of the Stormcloaks. - Ralof.

Surely even down in Cyrodiil people have heard news of the war in Skyrim? - Ralof

[coarse mica]

You being near the border doesn't necessarily imply intent to cross it that's just what the Legionaries think you're up to.

[glacial scarab]

Part of the issue is the location and more TES wanting players to be new to areas.

The question would be how would the Legion think the player is crossing the border if they weren't at Pale Pass? And it's crossing from Cyrodiil into Skyrim. There's already talks of an avalanche hidden away in Fort Neugrad's notes that could explain why the player is only just waking up when it gets to the winding road

[coarse mica]

Hmm it seems like the Stormcloaks are captured in Darkwater Crossing anyway

It's kinda weird that you're on the same cart at all

Why drag ulfric so far west and then south of helgen just to be put on the cart with you?

[glacial scarab]

Timeline wise we have the below. The Horse Thief is left compeltly blank and honestly only makes sense to have been picked up at the same time as the Stormcloaks.

Stormcloaks Ambushed near Darkwater Crossing (Ralof)
Tullius tries going to Cyrodiil with Ulfric (Hadvar)
Player crosses Cyrodiil-Skyrim border (Hadvar and Ralof talk of this though Ralof has to overhear Legionnaires for it)
Avalanche (Fort Neugrad Civil War notes)
Legion picks up Player at Pale Pass and turns around to Helgen
[Skyrim Intro]
Generic captain orders your death.

So Tullius was trying to bring Ulfric into Cyrodiil before the Avalanche ruined that plan which then became a rushed execution at Helgen.

[coarse mica]

Oh that's why it's weird

Ralof says you walked into that ambush same as us

Which doesn't make a lot of sense if the PC was in pale pass and the Stormcloaks already in custody

I guess you could say they're the same body of men? And therefore the same ambush

[glacial scarab]

Yeah Ralof contradicts himself which seems to be a writing issue between Unbound and Before the Storm.

Only thing we have with Pale Pass is player crossing into Skyrim, a Avalanche and Tullius planning on crossing it. It doesn't make sense for an ambush to be there.

[wise estuary]

So im the DM for a DnD campaign.

In my setting it have decided to use a spin-off version of Mannimarco as (potentially) the BBEG. And I was wondering if anyone knew some other titles/names Mannimarco has gone by besides "Mannimarco" and "King of Worms"

(The flowing isn't necessary to answer the question. Just some context/lore from my campaign regarding the Mannimarco reference.)

If your curious. Heres the lore:
Mannimarco (an elven Lich - who has concealed the fact he is a lich) is manipulating the isolationist, zealous, xenophobic Elven King to advance his own Agenda. Mannimarco serves a Patron (like a warlock). His Patron is the banished god of evil, ambitions, and the undead, Vecna.

Vecna's banishment to the Shadowfell has left him in a precarious situation, hut he believes he can manipulate Mannimarco to unintentionally free him.

Mannimarco plans to usurp and overthrow Vecna, assume his mantle, and ascend to Godhood. Mannimarco is assembling many "warlocks" and other agents to advance his plan. He does not hsve the power to act as a "patron" and utilizes Vecna's power to parade around as a "false Patron"

one of my players (Warlock) picked "undesd" for their patron, so their patron is actually Vecna using under one of his many disguised titles. The Warlock is going to be confronting one of Mannimarco's agents (though they dont know who Mannimarco is, or that this villain is an agent of his)

durring this confrontational I will have Vecna use the Warlock as a catalyst to issue a warning to Mannimarco. Something along the lines of "listen close, WORM! I know your intentions. I know what it is you seek. But know your place... beneath my heel. You serve me! You would do well to remember that, or I will bury you like the worm you are"

but in this confrontation I am thinking that I may have Vecna (or the villain which Mannimarco is controlling) use a false title of Mannimarco- the title he uses amongst his warlocks/agents to conceal his identity

[coarse mica]

The Necromancer
(sort of reminiscent of Sauron)
God of Worms

[wise estuary]

Hmmmmm. "The Necromancer" isn't bad.

Im planning on saving "King of Worms" and "God of Worms" - as it's initial use will mirror the method in which Mannimarco earned that title in ES lore. I imagine at some point in time the Elven King will find out that Mannimarco wishes to usurp uom as king (unsware that jos ambitions extend beyond being just a king) and the Elven King will tell him that he will never be more than a King of Worms - and eventually Vecna will tell him that he would only ever be a god of Worms (referring to Mannimarco's agents as worms).

But, doint more research I also found "The First Lich" and even "The Revenant"

But I do like the idea of Vecna referring to him in ambiguity as simply "the necromancer" sort of like a diminutive insult said in spite, like "the cat", "the dog", "the nerd" etc.

Thank you!

[lucid sundial]

You know what would be interesting? What if either the Empire or any anti-Thalmor groups make an alliance with the Sea Elves to face their common enemy such as the Thalmor of the Third Aldmeri Dominion? It may sound very very difficult, but not entirely impossible, given that the Wolf Queen Potema who despite that she was kinda on the opposition of the Septim Empire, plotted to rule the Empire with her son Uriel as his puppet emperor by inviting the Sea Elf king to Solitude and ahem had a diplomatic hospitality with him, as the story suggest that the Sea Elf king turned out to be a better lover for Potema than her dead husband, and when the Sea Elf king told Potema after they slept together that he was leaving her to attack Summerset Isles, she felt a stab of regret.

But I digress. The Maomer were enemies of the Empire before, but still, we should know by lore that the Maomer despise the Altmer of the Summerset Isles and the Aldmeri Dominion of any era more than anything in the world. Imagine if the Empire were to negotiate with the Maomer to make a secret military alliance to face the common enemy against the Thalmor. The common sense wisdom as said in history. "The Enemy of My Enemy is my Friend." And that was true in WW2 when the Soviets allied with the British Empire and the US and the Allies against Germany. And it should also be true on the upcoming Second Great War between the Empire and the Third Aldmeri Dominion. Alliances though doesn't always mean the Empire and the Maomer can be friends. Alliances are formed to achieve a common goal against an enemy that threatens them and to unite against the common enemy would give the alliance the advantage against the enemy.

[cosmic thistle]

I want the Maormer to make an introduction so much. ESO has some good Maormer writing, Maormer joining along with a alliance with the empire to take down Alinor would rule

[robust lintel]

I don't necessarily want them to join either side, but having them as a third party with their own self-interests in the larger conflict would be interesting. I like it messy, more fun to watch. Pretty sure they wanted to conquer Tamriel anyway.

[cosmic thistle]

Nah they just want Summerset

[robust lintel]

I can't see them not holding a grudge from the Empire allying with Summerset to destroy their naval fleet.

Imo, they should let the Thalmor become successful and achieve their goals, only to be destroyed by them and their own hatred in the end. Would be fitting for them.

[cosmic thistle]

Different regimes, US and the british crown were enemies for the longest time and now we're friends. Relationships and dynamics change between countries and powers all the time.

And having a tense relationship =/= wanting to take over an entire continent

[robust lintel]

Technically Summerset is part of "Tamriel."

In any case, I do agree with more inclusion of the Maormer in future TES titles.

Besides, you have to wonder, maybe the Maormer Fleet were such a powerful force that it really was necessary to have a 3v1 on them, and anything less would of resulted in defeat. Some forces are just complete badasses all on their own already and it would take multiple opponents to take them down.

[lucid sundial]

Who says the Maormer are gonna be friends with the Empire after forming an alliance to destroy the Thalmor? Just because factions form an alliance to destroy a common enemy, doesn't always mean they become friends. It has been demonstrated in ESO during the Daggerfall Covenant Questline when a talking Crow from a Reachmen clan formed a temporary alliance with the player against a common enemy. After that enemy is dealt with, the Crow then declares they are now enemies again.

[lucid sundial]

Becoming friends after the alliance to destroy a common enemy to me sounds like a hopeful and thoughtful thinking that may have proven true before, but it's not always the case. Like different factions like criminal factions form and alliance to destroy one big obstacle so that they would get that bigger threat out of the way, then focus on fighting each other now that the big threat is dealt with. For a rival to destroy a bigger rival, I can reflect the Arbiter's words from Halo 3 campaign stating "We trade one villain for another". Alliances can be either temporary or permanent.

[cosmic thistle]

Often times in politics alliances forge bonds. Like how the US's oldest friend is France because they helped us during the revolution or how the US went from enemies to allies with England because of WW1

It would also make Tamrielic politics way more interesting, create a realistic way to add in a new race and expand on the lore of a culture that is rarely shown

[robust lintel]

They could still add Maormer as a playable race, it's not like rogues or outcasts don't exist or for any reason really why you might see a small population of Maormer spreadout roaming Tamriel.

[pastel sorrel]

Or Germany and Italy, who were enemies in WW1 but allies in 2

Likewise Germany and Russia, enemies to allies to enemies again.

And Germany and Japan

it's almost like the entire world can go topsy-turvy in these circumstances huh

[robust lintel]

That's Tamriel for you (and people for that matter..). Opportunists. A cycle of being your friend and stabbing you in the back, whichever is most beneficial to them at the time.

[digital basin]

Need some lore help please 👋

If my character worships 3 daedric princes at the same time, is that normal practice inuniverse? Also, which would my soul be owed to in death in terms of their realms?

For anyone curious, the 3 are Hircine, Clavicus Vile, and Malacath. Eclectic i know.

[glacial scarab]

Tamriel is full of people that worship more then one god.

Morrowind has the Dunmer worship three "Good" Daedra for example. Nevermind all the Aedric religions.

[balmy salmon]

Khajiit also have several Daedra Princes within their pantheon.

Reachmen also worship multiple Daedra Princes.

[uncut hatch]

The Nords had Herma Mora as well (before Mr. Nesmith nuked the old pantheon)

[outer sorrel]

I'm curious why these three

But yeah veneration of multiple Daedra isn't weird at all. The three good daedra; Necromancers often are associated with Molag Bal, Namira, and Vaermina. The reachman pantheon includes Malacath and Hircine.

[balmy salmon]

In the old Nordic pantheon, testing gods like Herma Mora weren't meant to be worshiped.

[uncut hatch]

Ye but i was more so talking about how they were a part of the pantheon

[unkempt tide]

Thanks for the heads up

[robust lintel]

When the cats away, the mice do play. 😋

[outer sorrel]

Y'know what's really bizarre? There's a Dwarven ruin on the Systres archipelago in ESO. That's way too far west I'd think

Even for the Rourken

I highly doubt the Sload and Summerset would have been chill with the Dwemer setting up there

[robust lintel]

Maybe it was super cereal secret?

[pastel sorrel]

I mean they had underwater bases even IIRC, they could've been set up all throughout the ocean and we might never know.

[proven moss]

Speaking of underwater bases

1. What would an underwater Argonian settlement look like
2. I imagine Sload structures would look the same both above and below the waves
3. Past kalpas aside, do Dreugh build underwater?
   If they do, what would that look like?

[robust lintel]

That'd be awesome if the Dwemer had secretly constructed an entire underwater tunnel linking Tamriel to Akavir.

[robust lintel]

1. A big mess.. like a beaver's lodge. Or fancy underwater temple.

[robust lintel]

Anyway, if only the Dwemer had thought to have a backup plan. Growing a future generation of Dwemer people in stasis, cryo, or whatever and supervised by the Animunculi, only to be awakened if something happened with the current generation of Dwemer (which did, poof). A whole new generation of Dwemer to pick up where the previous generation left off or develop new plans of their own design. Perhaps seeking to dominate Tamriel first, and then.. the world? And we thought the Thalmor were bad..

[calm geyser]

Maybe they did and we just don’t know about it yet 😉

[balmy salmon]

I'm of the belief that what happened to the Dwemer was intentional right up until the part where the Heart fell into the hands of the Chimer, and Numidium was left unpowered.

[glacial scarab]

I don't think it's on the archipelago but somewhere between the Systres and High Rock.

[cosmic thistle]

I think it's less they had underwater colonies and more due to the inner sea being the result of floodings due to red mountain's eruptions being so violent it caused earthquakes and sinking land they just got completely submerged

[outer sorrel]

That's still pretty far out of the way

[outer sorrel]

Also yeah, Almah nuked Bal Foyen in the like early second era(?) and caused a ton of geological activity we'll say

Alongside regular tectonic instability, given Morrowind is volcanic

[outer sorrel]

Sload built with coral even before the sinking of Thras, so yeah probably

[sleek hearth]

One thing I think Elder Scrolls 6 can improve upon when compared to Skyrim is combat with Dragons. They should be more versatile and formidable when it comes to shouts, tactics, attacks, and even taunting. One of things about Dragons that makes them come across so dangerous and scary is their intelligence, how it matches or exceeds that of human / human like races intelligence. I think that should be evident in both their dialogue and their fighting ability. A fight with a dragon should be something players never forget.

[upper field]

That's assuming Dragons are even in ES6.

[outer sorrel]

No reason there can't be, but they probably wouldn't be a focus

[proven moss]

Not being a focus is a strong reason they might not be in TES VI. Todd talked about developing horseback riding for Skyrim and during that talk he mentioned how they could have easily given horses saddlebags and other frequently requested features by fans but they thought horses would become too much of a focus of the player's attention if they had lots of additional features attached.

Or something along those lines - its been a long time

Anyway, implementing dragons would presumably take a lot of dev time (not only the dragons themselves but on making perches and whatnot for them) on top of distracting from whatever they are considering to be the primary features and focus of the next game to be.

[cosmic thistle]

I mean not really. They reused the dragon flying tech and animations for 4, 76 and I wouldn't be shocked if flying animals in starfield use the animation. A lot of it would just be scaling up the dragon's textures but otherwise everything is already there

[uncut hatch]

They might've reused the tech but Animations and attacks were all made from scratch for 76

In fact 76 might as well be entirely separate. The scorchbeasts act almost nothing like dragons beyond the fact that both fly

[pastel sorrel]

If anything dragons are just fancy cliff racers

[pastel sorrel]

Which is funny because they then ended up doing horse-related DLC's and Creations anyway.

You're on a horse, they've got their own interesting dynamics to deal with, you may as well play with those dynamics.

[balmy salmon]

This. I want at least Mount and Blade caliber mounted combat not just for myself but for enemies as well.

[robust lintel]

Yea, I remember the arena in Oblivion. Ever since then I've wanted a jousting competition added.

[glacial scarab]

The Arena and its teams does fit the Imperials.

Jousting needs to be a Breton/High Rock thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demes_in_the_Byzantine_Empire

The demes were chariot racing factions in the Roman and later Byzantine Empires, which over time developed into social and political factions. There were four demes; the dominant two were the Blues and the Greens, which exercised patronage over the Whites and the Reds respectively.

There was a class division between the two demes. The Greens tended to be more working-class than the Blues, and were better represented among craftsmen, artisans, port-workers and countryfolk. Meanwhile, the Blues were better represented among elites and government officials,

[cosmic thistle]

I think the main issue of the arena is less does it fit cyrodiil and more a blood sport where people sign up to die on a daily basis is very nonsensical and not very realistic.

Also jousting would be widespread like it was in Europe. So I can see it in most parts of Tamriel

[proven moss]

Oh yeah, the Arena as depicted in TES is a reflection of popular ideas about the gladiators

Doesn't reflect historical reality

I think that's totally fine in a game like TES where killing stuff is basically the core gameplay.

Although NPCs being able to submit would be great for RP