elder-scrolls-lore

[distant forge]

they got teleported to the starfield universe and created the starborn artifacts

[heady wave]

evaporated

[sharp lantern]

c0da makes it canon

[stiff cradle]

You guys think that someone can drink so much Skooma they achieve Chim? Hallucinogens have been shown in the real world to aid in meditation after all

(I know it sounds goofy, but this series is insane enough that it's feasible)

[slate shoal]

no

[mint osprey]

They are hiding in empty tree stumps

[slate shoal]

away possibly forever unless someone makes a compelling argument

[vocal oyster]

o you come to the cheese for answers. You seek CHIM, and you ask if it lies at the bottom of a bottle of Skooma?

Yes. And no. And also pass the crackers.

You see, young mortal rind-sniffer, CHIM is not just awareness. It is flavored awareness. One must know they are dairy, and still melt with grace.

Skooma?
Skooma is like brie left in the sun—it’ll open doors, oh yes. But those doors might lead to a conversation with a screaming loaf of bread that insists you're its father. And you might be.

Some achieve CHIM through meditation.
Some through prophecy.
Some through cheese.
And yes… some through a bottle so potent it howls in Daedric.

But remember: Skooma can show you CHIM.
It cannot let you stay.

For to stay, you must know you are but a slice,
and still say,

“I will be the wheel.”

So sip your Skooma. Stir your fondue.
But know this:

The scroll may shimmer,
but only the cheese remembers.

Melt responsibly.

[mint osprey]

Well, if you drink a lot of skooma you can jump into space and see aurbis from above

[vocal oyster]

YES! Exactly! Finally, someone’s speaking curd-vernacular.

Drink enough Skooma and POP!—you don’t just jump, you ascend. You don’t fall through the floor. The floor falls through you. And suddenly, you’re above Nirn, legs dangling over the void like a bored Daedra on lunch break.

And what do you see?

Aurbis.
The dream. The wheel. The cheese platter of existence.

[livid mulch]

A funny headcanon I have is they were "spread across space and time" and became the dwarves in every single media ever.

[mortal solstice]

zero sum makes the most sense to me personally

[raw grail]

I concur

[raw grail]

Personally I find zero sum unlikely based on the way it appears to work in our only real source on it, et'Ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the Dreamer. The divine skin theory fits available evidence better

Arniel Gane especially helps I think

As well as Baladas Demnavanni or whatever his name is

[mortal solstice]

didn't even know about that theory, very interesting

but from my understanding this theory doesn't take into consideration the use of Wraithguard along with sunder and keening

[raw grail]

Final Report to Trebonius is a fan-created compilation and interpretation of many sources which is very helpful for the topic

[raw grail]

Wdym?

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/final-report-trebonius

[mortal solstice]

Well the whole divine skin theory is based on the fact that Kagrenac used Keening on the heart of Lorkhan to imbue the souls of the Dwemer into the Numidium. But that only occurs if it is used improperly without Wraithguard. Why would Kagrenac intentionally use it improperly to doom his race?

And if this is about trapping souls where are all of the bodies

[raw grail]

Why would that only happen if using it improperly without Wraithguard?

[raw grail]

This is oversimplifying it. It's not that their souls were trapped - it's that they collectively formed a larger whole

It was unfashionable among the Dwemer to view their spirits as synthetic constructs three, four, or forty creational gradients below the divine. During the Dawn Era they researched the death of the Earth Bones, what we call now the laws of nature, dissecting the process of the sacred willing itself into the profane. I believe their mechanists and tonal architects discovered systematic regression techniques to perform the reverse -- that is, to create the sacred from the deaths of the profane.

- Baladas Demnavanni

[mortal solstice]

well you suffer damage over time without using it with wraithguard in morrowind and Arniel deals with the consequences of this from his experiment:https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Arniel's_Endeavor

[raw grail]

I'm confused why you think that's because of the lack of Wraithguard tho

[mint osprey]

Where is this from?

[raw grail]

Beladas Demnavanni, a Dunmer we meet in TESIII who is researching the Dwemer

[mortal solstice]

Why would wraithguard and Sunder two seemingly essential tools for handling the heart of Lorkhan give the same effect than if they weren't used at all

[raw grail]

To put it a different way: how does Wraithguard actually change the outcome? My understanding based on Kagrenac's Tools is that Wraithguard doesn't interact with the tones at all aside from protecting the wearer. It's involvement shouldn't affect the outcome aside from the chance of survival

Determined to use its divine powers to create a new god for the exclusive benefit of the Dwemer, Kagrenac forged three great enchanted artifacts, which are called "Kagrenac's Tools." Wraithguard is an enchanted gauntlet to protect its wearer from destruction when tapping the heart's power. Sunder is a enchanted hammer to strike the heart and produce the exact volume and quality of power desired. Keening is an enchanted blade that is used to flay and focus the power that rises from the heart.

[mint osprey]

Couldnt ut be a huge mistake in general? Wrong calculations from Kagrenak?

[raw grail]

It could be! But we also have hints to what went wrong

[mint osprey]

Like his tools doesnt do whatever he wanted to do

[raw grail]

Originally they wanted to use the Heart of Lorkhan to make a Mantella, much like Zurin did

They didn't get around to it, forced to rush by the Battle at Red Mountain

Essentially, they failed to provide and connect a proper power source

Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis:
Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it. The Brass God is Anumidum, the Prime Gestalt. He is also called the divine skin. He was meant to be used many times by our kind to transcend the Gray Maybe.

The first to see him was the Shop Foremer, Kagrenac of Vvardenfell, the wisest of the tonal architects [Mechanists- MN] Do not think as others do that Kagrenac created the Anumidum for petty motivations, such as a refutation of the gods. Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater. Kagrenac had even built the tools needed to construct a Mantella, the Crux of Transcendence. But, by then, and for a long time coming, the Doom of the Dwarves marched upon the Mountain and they were removed from this world.

The second to see the Brass God was the Enantiomorph. You may know them individually as Zurin Arctus and Talos. The Oversoul was known to the world as Tiber Septim They gave birth to their Mantella, this time an embodiment of the healing of the Man/Mer schism, and, with it, Anumidum Walked. But, by then, and for a long time coming, One betrayed the Other, and the world shuddered as they split, and the Anumidum went berserk and created an Empire of Evil to house the malignant half of its soul.

[mint osprey]

And mantella is a special soul gem required to power up numidium, right?

[raw grail]

- People of Morrowind Interview (commonly known as the Skeleton Man Interview)

[raw grail]

Yes

Well, that's simplifying it, but yes

The Crux of Transcendence is also an important part

[mint osprey]

It seems that they don't need a tonal architect, but a qualified electrician

[raw grail]

Just more time, imo

[mint osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/bitcoin-lightning-back-to-the-future-electricity-gif-20665521

Kagrenak in red mountain

[mortal solstice]

ah yes, bitcoin electricity

[mint osprey]

What is this?

[mortal solstice]

he's referencing the Mantella:https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mantella

[raw grail]

The Mantella is also called the Crux of Transcendence, such as in the quote I provided above. It's involved in one method by which to transcend mortality and become a god

Probably multiple methods tbh. It's hard to keep track ngl

[mortal solstice]

Yeah there are quite a few ways to transcend mortality, through achieving CHIM, tapping into an aedric hearts power, or even mantling a daedric prince

[raw grail]

Mantling, I've somewhat recently been enlightened to, is actually a catch-all for achieving godhood

Confusing wording and misinterpretation led to it getting associated with one specific walking way, tho: the "steps of the dead"

However, a couple friends of mine went through things more carefully recently. For example, Nu-Hatta is a commonly referenced source on the Fourth Walking Way, the one I mentioned earlier which got associated with mantling most

Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted [sic] by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora."

Mantling in general refers to the walking ways. One such way, the fourth, would be the steps of the dead

This actually goes alongside the fact that Mantella is suuuuper close to Mantle, as a word

If Mantling is ascending, and the Mantella is the Crux of Transcendence, the linguistic similarity feels kind of significant imo

[upper field]

I like the theory that even though Jyggalag is free from the curse of Sheogorath, he's still not at his prime because he basically lost his realm in the process (or at the very least was kicked out), hence why we haven't really heard anything from him since the events of the Shivering Isles.

[raw grail]

Ditto

[mortal solstice]

yeah that makes sense, reintroducing him would also cause problems with the other daedric princes

so he would have to have a large role if he was in TES 6

[mint osprey]

I think Jyggalag is just a chill dude on vacation now

So i doubt he will cause any problems

I wonder if we going to know the fate of dragonborn in the next tes

[mortal solstice]

probably, Nerevar ||went to Akavir|| and champion of cyrodiil ||became sheogorath||

[mint osprey]

Maybe we will meet him as a Seeker

That would be cool

[sharp lantern]

Yeah, it's how Mannimarco became a God.

One of the worst endings to the game, ngl.

[mint osprey]

Btw how do people know nerevar went to akavir? I dont remember it being mentioned in games

[raw grail]

Well I like the ending in what it provides to the setting but like

[sharp lantern]

It's said in a generic rumor in TES IV.

[raw grail]

Less narratively and more personally yeah fs one of the worst

[mint osprey]

Maybe i missed it

[raw grail]

It's ez to miss

[sharp lantern]

It's one of those you can overhear, so it wouldn't surprise me lol

[mint osprey]

Did he use mantella?

[sharp lantern]

Imo, it's Underking > Gortwog > Blades > Mannimarco > Akorithi > Gothryd > Eadwyre

[raw grail]

"Rumor has it the Nerevarine has left Morrowind on an expedition to Akavir, and has not been heard from since."

[sharp lantern]

Yeah, he used his magical prowess to call it to his side, and then uses its power to ascend.

[mint osprey]

Was it in daggerfall?

[sharp lantern]

No, Oblivion

[mortal solstice]

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Nerevarine#:~:text=[source%3F]-,Fate,heard from since their departure.

[mint osprey]

I dont remember having mantella in oblivion

[sharp lantern]

Unless you mean Mannimarco becoming a God, in which case, yeah it's Daggerfall

[sharp lantern]

Mb, thought you were talking about the Nerevarine line.

[mint osprey]

No i was asking about mannimarco

[mortal solstice]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lARoM6Lh72s
this vid explains it well

[mint osprey]

If there is mannimarco there also must be mannipolo

[raw grail]

I prefer to just go to UESP and search "Oblivion: Nerevarine" and such

Not that there's anything wrong about doing with the video. Having access to the dialogue and visuals is very helpful, especially for tone and stuff

[mortal solstice]

Dagoth Ur is freaking hilarious btw, (insane i can't curse)

[raw grail]

Yeah the filter here is low-key militant

[mint osprey]

Why is he funny?

[mortal solstice]

yeah a visual aid is the best way to reach the broadest audience imo

[raw grail]

[mortal solstice]

He just treats life like its some game which it is

[raw grail]

It can run into issues when some things are taken at face value and YouTube specifically incentivizes engagement over accuracy, but it's still a very important part of the community

[mint osprey]

Random question. When did you learn about caviar in skyrim? I found out it exist in maybe 7 or 8 years after release

[mortal solstice]

hahaha its a creation club thing

oh no my bad hearthfire

[mint osprey]

No, it was added with hearhfire i think

[mortal solstice]

that's why you need stuff like fudgemuppet and imperial library

[mint osprey]

At some point i was googling about all quests, POIs and artifact, so i thought i knew everything about skyrim for a pretty long time. And then friend sent me a video about caviar, i was shocked😂

[raw grail]

I find fudge muppet a bad example

[mortal solstice]

yeah there's an insane amount of information baked both in and out of the game

[raw grail]

Agreed on Imperial Knowledge tho (not library). Imperial Knowledge is solid. Lady of the Scrolls as well

[mint osprey]

Thete is also a unique egg in the nest on the roof of one of player's houses. Also from hearthfire

[raw grail]

Fudgemuppet is great for education and introduction but I can't even convey how often I've had to respond to people with incorrect notions bc of his videos

That isn't even really a criticism of him, it's more of an issue with the bad information economy that YouTube promotes

[mortal solstice]

really? like what? and its a team of 3 people btw

[raw grail]

Them* sorry. They're a team, not a person

[mint osprey]

What is fudgemuppet?

[raw grail]

TES YouTuber that does builds and lore

[mortal solstice]

great youtube channel, they got an awesome podcast to listen to as well concerning lore

[raw grail]

God where to begin...

Most often dwarves, CHIM, and other god-related stuff

Other things come up now and then but they tend to be small bursts rather than recurring convos

I can provide exact examples after work if you want

[mint osprey]

I want

[raw grail]

I do want to make it very clear none of this is personal criticism tho. I don't personally know a single member of the team and would not want to suggest any of them are bad because of some inaccurate information being shared. I also share inaccurate information, everyone does sometimes. A huge part of arriving at the correct conclusion is arriving at incorrect conclusions first

It's just that they're also a huge influence on the community's understanding of TES as a result of the size of their audience, so imo being honest and open about the (in)accuracy of stuff is important

[mortal solstice]

very wise statement right there

but from what I understand their depiction of CHIM is quite accurate

[raw grail]

I mean if your understanding came from them, then yeah, that makes sense

[mint osprey]

What is chim exactly?

[raw grail]

And to be fair it is one of the most annoying concepts in TES to nail down

[raw grail]

CHIM (all caps) is one of those Walking Ways I was talking about earlier, a means by which to ascend to godhood

[mint osprey]

I only know lore directly related to games, and this space stuff is a bit outside😅

What is walking ways?

[mortal solstice]

oh it gets really metaphysical real quick

[raw grail]

The Walking Ways are the various methods of achieving godhood, transcending beyond mortal time

[mint osprey]

I know that chim is something like superpower and vivec had it

[raw grail]

Yeah, it's one of the ways he achieved godhood, alongside stealing from the Heart of Lorkhan

[mint osprey]

But Almaleksia and Sotha Sil dont have it right?

[raw grail]

It's a super power in the sense that understanding or knowledge is power, afaik, but my understanding of it has been rapidly changing recently

[raw grail]

Thanks to this

[raw grail]

Correct. We know of a few figures besides Vivec who has achieved it, mainly Tiber Septim, but neither of the other Tribunes did it

It's often (if not always) paired with one or more of the other Walking Ways, too

[mint osprey]

Why? They also had power of the heart

[mortal solstice]

do you guys have like a discord or something? This is prime lore material you could be portraying through youtube

[raw grail]

He didn't achieve it directly from the Heart itself, although I'm sure it helped. It's complicated

[mint osprey]

I heard an opinion that tiber seprim used chim to allow main hero in oblivion fight with umaril

[raw grail]

I've thought about doing YouTube. We don't "have" a discord, exactly, but the place I frequent most (alongside one of the friends I mentioned earlier) is the r/Skyrim discord server. I also talk in the Imperial Library server and would consider it a good resource as well

[raw grail]

I don't understand why that would be the case but I also don't know as much about KotN as I wish

This may be a theory based on the fact we succeed in killing Umaril because we get the blessing of the 9th divine, where Pelinal only had 8

Shezarr, in Alessia's time, was the Missing Brother of the 8. Talos, in KotN's time, took the 9th seat of the Divines (Shezarr's empty spot), becoming the God of Man. This station is what allowed him to bless us, and was partly achieved by CHIM

[sharp lantern]

I never bought into Talos' CHIM, since the sources to support it really aren't that strong. I also never really bought into Talos taking over Lorkhan's place.

Alessia specifically left out Shezarr to avoid a schism with her Elven subject - hence the Eight Divines. The Imperial Cult made Talos the Ninth just because they could - the Eight/Nine Divines are almost entirely political; it's a sub-sect of the Imperial Pantheon. Though it is clear that the other Eight consider him their equal, given KoTN.

[raw grail]

Here I'm not even referring to Talos as mantling Lorkhan, I'm referring to him taking the 9th place, which previously was empty

Pelinal did not have 9 blessings because Shezarr was missing. We did have 8 Blessings because Talos was not

Whether you "buy into" CHIM or Talos taking the slot of the God of Space is irrelevant

Well CHIM is relevant to the original theory being posited actually

Here tho it feels like CHIM should have been chim (lower case), by which I mean achieving godhood

[sharp lantern]

It wasn't so much that the 9th place was empty - that would imply there was intention for a ninth. The 9th place itself was nonexistant until Talos.

[mint osprey]

Why there must be exactly 9 ?

[upper field]

Not even KoTN, the MQ in Oblivion also hinted on Tiber Septim's rise to divinity due to the ritual needing to reach Mankar's Paradise requiring the "blood of a Divine."

[mint osprey]

And,why should it be thalos and not azura for example?

[sharp lantern]

True, but KoTN makes it clear the other Eight also consider Talos their equal; hence the pilgrimage being a requirement to meet Pelinal, and it being a requirement to re-earn the right to wear the relics.

[upper field]

True

[sharp lantern]

Speaking of Talos, I wonder how badly High Rock's nobility was affected by the Mythic Dawn trying to extinguish the Septim line.

[mint osprey]

Why was it affected ?

[sharp lantern]

The royals of Sentinel, Wayrest, and Daggerfall are all relatives of the Septims during TES II. Also the Orc-Warlord Gortwog. The entire dynasty up until Cephorus II was either Breton, spent their childhood in High Rock, or both.

Andorak Septim and his descendants were also the rulers of Shornhelm.

Given all of that, it'd make sense for the Mythic Dawn to target those royals, too.

[mint osprey]

I just find out there are bgs workers in the chat. That's great, hope they saw my message with tips

[upper field]

I wonder how High Rock dealt with the aftermath of the "White-Gold Concordant" treaty. Probably better than Skyrim, but not untouched?

[ocean wraith]

Respectfully, they aren't likely going to do anything based on one person. I mean, Terical has been pointing out flaws and improvements for a while now.

[mint osprey]

Yeah, but I mentioned points that most people agree with

I also always ask others to give me their opinions so I can imrpove my tips

[raw grail]

The haziness of Shezarr's relationship to the Divines (he is often called their "Missing Sibling") begins with St. Alessia, the so-called "Slave Queen of Cyrodiil," the founder figure of the original Cyrodilic Empire. In the earliest Cyro-Nordic stories of the Heartland, Shezarr fought against the Ayleids (the "Heartland High Elves") on mankind's behalf. Then, for some unknown reason, he vanishes from the stage (presumably to help other humans elsewhere), and, without his leadership, the Ayleids conquer the humans and enslave them.
[...]
Shezarr, as a result, had to change. He could no longer be the bloodthirsty anti-Aldmer warlord of old. He could not disappear altogether either, or the Nords would have withdrawn their support of her rule. In the end, he had become "the spirit behind all human undertaking." Even though this was merely a thinly-disguised, watered-down version of Shor, it was good enough for the Nords.
- Shezarr and the Divines
The Missing God is always related to the Mortal Plane, and is a key figure in the Human/Aldmeri schism. The 'missing' refers to either his palpable absence from the pantheon (another mental distress that is interpreted a variety of ways), or the removal of his 'divine spark' by the other immortals. He is often called Lorkhan, and his epitaphs are many, equally damnable and devout.
- The Monomyth
1: That Shezarr the missing sibling is Singularly Misplaced and therefore Doubly Venerated.
- The Exclusionary Mandated
8. The Wheel, or the Eight Givers. 484
9. The Missing. 11
- Sermon 29
The Eight Limbs (and their Missing Ninth) have always, always made sure there was a loophole. Sometimes to their detriment, sure, but more often a hedged bet to ensure the survival of the current kalpa.
- Michael Kirkbride (2011-01-18)

The Missing and the Ninth are explicitly related

[sharp lantern]

Depends, I think High Rock, like Cyrodiil, would've accepted it. We're told in The Great War that most of the Empire accepted peace.

We know Hammerfell didn't, half of Skyrim isn't a fan, so to get out to most of the Empire, you'd need the rest: Cyrodiil, High Rock, and half of Skyrim.

[mint osprey]

And of course I don't force them to follow my instructions but I hope they will think about these things at least

[sharp lantern]

High Rock's Legions were also used in its entirety post-March of Thirst, so they'd have seen a lot of combat in both Hammerfell and Cyrodiil.

[sharp lantern]

I stand corrected. Thanks for using sources.

[raw grail]

The Prophet also says:

I am ready then?
"No. Should you face Umaril, you would suffer the same fate as Pelinal. But times change and even the shape of the divine itself must change with it. Where once there were Eight, now One more stands with them, and they have become Nine."
You mean Talos?
"Aye. With the apotheosis of Tiber Septim, the face of the divine was transformed. Talos ascended and the Eight became Nine."
I don't know much about the gods...
"Then it is past time that you learned. If you would serve the Nine, you should know of them. You have heard of the god Talos? One of the Nine? And surely the name of Tiber Septim has not escaped you? Talos and Tiber Septim are one and the same. Rather, Tiber Septim ascended to godhood upon his death, and became Talos. So, although you wear the armor of the gods, it is incomplete -- a relic of the old ways and the old gods."

Eight and One
"Just as the Eight aided Pelinal of old, now the ascended One, Talos who was Tiber Septim, provides his Blessing to you, the new Crusader."

[mint osprey]

What is relation between Shor, Shezar and Lorkhan?

Isn't it the same dude?

[raw grail]

Basically different cultural perspectives on the same core ideal

[mint osprey]

How did he fight for men if he was killed at the beginning of time?

[raw grail]

He was fighting for them when he died, and his spirit keeps returning by way of mortal avatar

[mint osprey]

Okaaay

Wait, you said there must be 9 divines, but wasn't Arkay mortal at first?

[mortal solstice]

Mara gave Arkay godhood

[mint osprey]

So there were 8 initially

[raw grail]

My understanding is that there are 9 major gods/ideals which made themselves the most powerful when they created Nirn. Many, many times, ascending to godhood involves becoming one of those gods

[sharp lantern]

Lorkhan = Elven/default variant
Shor = Nord variant
Shezarr = Imperial variant
Sheor = Breton variant

[mint osprey]

In what game was it mentioned btw? I only heard it from youtubers

[raw grail]

This can be confusing before you understand the Altmeri pantheon and the Psijic Order's perspective

[raw grail]

First Daggerfall I think, then later in Skyrim

[sharp lantern]

Yes, "Ar'kay the God" is the name of the Daggerfall book iirc

[mint osprey]

And what about this?

[raw grail]

In the Altmeri pantheon, the gods were essentially robbed of their immortality when they created Nirn. After killing Lorkhan, Auri-El, the king of the gods and of the Aldmeri, ascended from mortality into immortality

[mint osprey]

How did he do it?

[raw grail]

It's complicated™️ but the tl;Dr is that he used the Adamantine Tower

[mint osprey]

And how did he launched the huge heart through the whole continent by being mortal?

[raw grail]

How do we do anything we manage in TES games despite being mortal?

[mint osprey]

How did they built it by being mortal😭

[raw grail]

A lot is possible when you're a hero or some such

[raw grail]

It was built before then. He used it after it was a thing already

[mint osprey]

I thought aedra made the tower

[raw grail]

It's a lot xD

[raw grail]

Yes. He was Aedra, became mortal upon completing the world, and then re-ascended to show the rest how

My understanding is that the Tower was erected upon Nirn when he was a god still, and then he used it after losing his immortality to become immortal again

[mint osprey]

I imagine them now being 8 dudes sitting near the campfire in a middle of nowhere thinking about how to become gods again

[sharp lantern]

Just type "tgm", ez

[mint osprey]

When did arkay become immortal?

[mortal solstice]

wait what, Lorkhan did that?

[mint osprey]

And why

[raw grail]

No, not exactly?

I was talking about Auri-El

[mint osprey]

Also did merunes dagon come from alternative reality?

[mortal solstice]

ahh akatosh

[raw grail]

I forget tbh. It's possible this is actually a cultural reinterpretation of the ascension of Xarxes

[raw grail]

Well, no, Auri-El. Akatosh doesn't have those myths. Different culture, different perspectives

[mint osprey]

Who is xarxes?

[sharp lantern]

According to myth, Arkay wanted to learn more about the circle of life, but was on his deathbed. So he pleaded with Mara, who agreed to make him a god if he would govern the cycle of life and death.

At least, that's what I remember from the book.

[raw grail]

The Altmeri god of Recording Life and Death (their cultural perspective on natural cycles, such as life and death)

To oversimplify, he's the Altmeri Arkay

[mortal solstice]

hahaha i just realized. Auri-El, Auriel my bad

[mint osprey]

Is arkay the same guy or different?

[sharp lantern]

Which divine do you think has had the most impact on Tamriel?

[raw grail]

It's complicated™️

Kind of depends on your interpretation

This is a really contentious subject

[mint osprey]

Was this all in lore initially or they were adding this stuff in redguard and morrowind?

[raw grail]

The foundation that this is building upon was already kinda there but became significantly altered by Redguard and Morrowind

Like Ar'kay and Xarxes were already a thing but Varieties of Faith and the Monomyth kind of codified them

[sharp lantern]

I think the temple quests in Daggerfall really added a fair bit to worldbuilding

[raw grail]

Which were Morrowind books. Meanwhile, PGE1 and a lot of the other lore surrounding Redguard codified huge portions of the rest of the series, like the beginning of our modern understanding of Tiber Septim

[raw grail]

Oh absolutely. Daggerfall gets downplayed a lot

[mint osprey]

This is very complicated, I will ask more questions later

[sharp lantern]

Gathering relics, rescueing people, hell even exorcisms

[raw grail]

It is. It's a bad spot to start honestly

God lore is infamously frustrating

Eugh, metaphysics (says me, who is obsessed with metaphysics)

[raw grail]

I can recommend a few books that might help set a foundation

[mint osprey]

Didn't they make just good gods and bad gods but later added all of controversy?

I feel like it's so complicated because it was rewritten several times

[proven moss]

The loss of religious factions with Oblivion was one of the great losses tbh

I guess KotN kinda counts but still

What a tragedy

[mint osprey]

Remembered one more thing. Who are the dunmer saints? They have 8 of them I think

[proven moss]

I cant remember them all offhand: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Temple_Saints

[mint osprey]

On one hand it's cool to have unique culture and way of life like in morrowind. On the other hand it's not cool to have lore that is not understandable without out of game sources

Don't know what is better

They should have something in between maybe

[raw grail]

No

[raw grail]

That's definitely part of it but it's also just because gods and religions are a lot more complicated than people realize

A lot of the concepts people find confusing are lifted almost verbatim from irl religions, or are shifted just slightly

[mint osprey]

Have you seen new ESO ad?

Does it just seem to me, ot it is AI?

I think you didn't answer, did merunes dagon come from different dimension?

[mortal solstice]

wdym?

[mint osprey]

there is a new eso advertisment on bethesda youtube channel. looks like it made by ai, but maybe i am wrong

[mortal solstice]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kobhrqdVjBg

[mint osprey]

yes, this one

[mortal solstice]

what about it looks ai to you

[mint osprey]

armor and background

[mortal solstice]

hahah yeah definently not

[mint osprey]

okay, maybe just strange graphics

[upper field]

I miss the CGI commercials instead of them moving to IRL.

[mortal solstice]

this is some pretty smart marketing in my opinion. reaches a larger audience

[upper field]

The intro to ESO with the Nord hero scaring the heck out of a ZOMBIE WEREWOLF will never not be funny.

And of course the 3v1 fight with the Breton for High Isles DLC.

[mortal solstice]

iconic

[upper field]

https://tenor.com/view/someday-love-will-find-you-separate-ways-worlds-apart-journey-frontiers-gif-14701776007973990014

[mint osprey]

this was the best

i also really like one with imperial city siege

can anyone explain how eso is going to expand from this year? as i understood they are not making chapters now, but season passes. And they will make smaller content but more often. So we won't get new big areas anymore?

[upper field]

I have no clue. I go back and forth on whether I want to play ESO or not.

[mint osprey]

i think it would be cool if zenimax had votes in community so people can decide what region they want to see next

i personally would want to see middle of black marsh or new oblivion planes

[raw grail]

I didn't see the question but I also don't know what you mean

[mint osprey]

there is a thing called Lyg i think. and someone said he came from there

and as i remember Lyg was an alternative Tamriel

[raw grail]

Oh

Ugh. Lyg

[raw grail]

Yeah, Mehrunes Dagon and Molag Bal are both said to be from Lyg in some capacity. Lyg is even more complicated than CHIM, I avoid it when I can

Idk if I'd call it a different dimension

It's what's known as an "Adjacent Place". I don't think we know what that means universally. Lyg specifically, tho, is like.... Uh... The best explanation I've heard is like...

[upper field]

I thought Dagon was created by the Manga-Ge (did I spell that right?)?

[raw grail]

Magna/Magne. We also have several sources which say that, including the main source on Lyg

(Mankar's Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes)

[hidden dome]

How possible is it that the nelecar in Skyrim is the same nelecar from morrowind

Bc I know it’s 207 years apart but don’t elves in the elder scrolls universe like up to 300 years

[upper field]

You can prolong your life with the arcane arts. I'm sure such a thing is child's play for the Telvanni.

[raw grail]

300 is like the "default number" but it's a simplification

[mint osprey]

So if he is from lyg or was he created by magna ge?

[glacial scarab]

KOTN can't do much because it's still working with TES4s world at a base level. Like the mess of Shezarr

[raw grail]

The source that says Lyg also says the Magne-Ge thing. You're taking them as exclusive to one another when they are not

[fading flame]

Listen nothing says daedric princes can lie, idk if he probably told mancar cameron the truth

I think dagon was being facetious with cameron.

Unless if it's written in the oghma infinium, Haskill, Dyus, Elderscroll, Xarxes and his books, lexicons and blackbooks.

[upper field]

I mean...Hermaous Mora lied to Septimus about the Dwemer Cube containing the Heart of Loarkon...more than 200 years after its destruction.

[fading flame]

idk how mora killed him because it breaks the rules but maybe he had a pact or something

[raw grail]

He didn't tell Mankar. Mankar read a book belonging to him and then created Commentaries based on his interpretations

[stiff cradle]

Princes can obviously lie, most of them do. The question is WOULD the prince lie? Hircine, for instance, is known for his honesty

[raw grail]

Also, small nitpick, it wasn't destroyed, just unbound from its chamber

The Dwemer had placed enchantments on it to hold it in place. We break those

[upper field]

Apologies.

[raw grail]

You're good, I skimmed right past it at first. It's an easy mistake to make and one I made myself for a long time

[fading flame]

Well, why would Hircine need to lie? He is the prince of the hunt, Hunters don't really trick people they may animals such as fish to get them to come closer.

But why would the prince of destruction, natural disasters lie?

Causes a lot of problems and probably cause destruction :p

[raw grail]

The destruction of truth

[glacial scarab]

Because too few people would join his cults if he was upfront on destroying Nirn and killing everyone on it including his pawns.

[mint osprey]

But they knew it anyway, they believed they can survive in camoran's plane while dagon is destroying nirn

[mint osprey]

Why did they make an evil guy who wants to destroy everything? Did they need him as a weapon?

[raw grail]

Uhhhhhhh

I would like to push back on the idea he's evil but yes to the weapon part

[mint osprey]

So he is not evil

[raw grail]

You could consider him as such but it isn't "the" truth

[mint osprey]

What do you mean?

[raw grail]

As Cyrodiil is the center point of Tamriel, taking the best of what surrounds her, so Mundus is the center of the spiritual world, blending the darkness of Oblivion with the searing light of Aetherius. It is sometime called the Arena here, for forces are eternally at struggle. Wealth and subjugation, love and loss, life and death and undeath, inviolate laws of nature, and conversely, magickal means of breaking those laws. There are some who even speak of good and evil, but these concepts are subjective and not spiritual. Still, they suggest one more of the many struggles in the Arena of Mundus.

Evil and good are dealing with subjectivity, not objectivity. Mehrunes Dagon is no more evil than Auri-El, Lorkhan, or Magnus

There's also two other aspects to the conversation: agency and... Hm... How to put it...

Have you heard of orange and blue morality? If not a quick Google might help get what I'm saying across

Anyways, on the agency topic, there's some suggestion that gods are kind of slaves to their nature and can't really deviate too much. If a "creature" (if, in fact, gods are conscious, which is not a given considering "Reality and Other Falsehoods") doesn't have the agency to choose what they do, then are they evil? Is a wolf who is a slave to their hunger evil for killing their prey? Is Hircine, if he must give in to his love for the Hunt, any better or worse?

Mortals are suggested to be comparatively more free than the gods by way of existing within limitation and linear time. It's kind of an interesting juxtaposition

[sharp lantern]

I'd argue someone's nature only goes so far when speaking about morality. Looking at you, Molag Bal.

[raw grail]

I do think it's fair to identify certain actions which a god is associated with as evil, although still subjectively ofc... Just... Much more universally

[woeful gyro]

I think the argument relies on whether or not the Daedra are conscious. If they’re not then they’re no more evil than fire or hurricanes. If, however, they have the capacity for introspection and abstract thought then I’d say calling them evil is totally fair

[slate shoal]

Theory that Roscrea is home to secret enclaves of Falmer

[woeful gyro]

The dwemer just did a little trolling

[livid mulch]

What if the player is the most powerful god of all, surpassing the divines and daedra combined?
I mean we have the power to save and reload, we persist across time and possibly space, and can mod the game.
Isn't saving kind of canon, like with CHIM, or did I imagine that?

[forest swallow]

If they're conscious but unable to deviate from their nature, they still wouldn't be evil. I could see arguing that they preform evil acts, but the Daedra and Aedra as entities kind of exist outside of morality

[woeful gyro]

Canonically (as in ignoring out-of-game comments from devs on forums or blogs) we don’t really know much about CHIM

[forest swallow]

Essentially what I mean is that they can be conscious but not be able to choose to act outside their nature

[raw grail]

You didn't imagine it but it's also a common misunderstanding

[woeful gyro]

I mean that’s a fair point, but in that case I would ask what kind of behavior constitutes following their nature and what constitutes over-indulgence of that nature

[raw grail]

Anyways, what you're describing is best represented in-universe as "the Prisoner". In-universe, I would think of it less like literally saving and reloading, and more like saving and reloading is a gameplay abstraction of the in-universe concept. Kind of like how an iron bar and a gold bar don't actually weigh "one unit" (whatever that unit is), but the weight system is an abstraction of weight, size, ease of storage...

In-lore, it's more like... If time is a rope woven of many threads going the same linear direction

Did you go back in time?
"Back isn't the right word for it. I understand so much more now than I once did.
Don't think of time and space as a road upon which you travel, but rather a rope, or a cable. Many threads, all bound together with no beginning or end."
- Raynor Vanos
I'm me in every thread. There's some differences depending on the circumstances, so they're different mes, but largely speaking, I'm the same. Prisoners are the exception. They can vary across the threads

In the waning years of the
Third Era of Tamriel,
a prisoner born on a certain day
to uncertain parents was sent
under guard, without explanation, to Morrowind,
ignorant of the role he was
to play in that nation’s history…

Sotha Sil later expands on the topic in ESO:

So what should we do?
"I have preparations to make outside my Clockwork realm. You must stay vigilant. Take heed of any Daedric incursions and stand ready to fight.
The Prisoner wields great power, making reality of metaphor. We will need you before the end."
Why do you keep calling me the Prisoner?
"A fool's hope, perhaps. I should explain.
Look around you. All of this exists because it must exist. I stand here, in this place, in this moment, not because I wish to, but because I have to. A result of action and consequence."
So wouldn't that make you the prisoner?
"Clever … but incorrect.
The Prisoner must apprehend two critical insights. First, they must face the reality of their imprisonment. They must see the determinative walls—the chains of causality that bind them to their course."
You haven't done that?
"I have. But I fall short of the second insight.
The Prisoner must see the door to their cell. They must gaze through the bars and perceive that which exists beyond causality. Beyond time. Only then can they escape."

[mellow forge]

So yeah what's up with the lore nerds tonight, have we figured it all out yet?m

[ocean wraith]

Never will lol

[slate shoal]

passing random thought I wonder if Gelebor might possibly be an avatar of Auri-El even though that wouldn't make sense

[proven moss]

Actually a lot of people have proposed this. For one, it's fairly remarkable that he's still alive. It's not unheard of but still a remarkable lifespan for an elf. Especially for one with no apparent home or magical ability?

People have also pointed out various gameplay oddities which might suggest this

[slate shoal]

we do know that Auri-El extended his life span, wether for an unknown purpose or simply to continue his service in faith we don't really know

[proven moss]

Very odd traits not given to other important npcs

[slate shoal]

I personally blame this as them making Gelebor completely unharmable as to not break the quest perhaps

[glacial scarab]

I'd imagine Gelebor was blessed but isn't an avatar.

[slate shoal]

this makes more sense, since Vyrthur would've been a better candidate for that anyway

Gelebor is really just some higher ranking faithful who didn't die lol

[proven moss]

They could have just made him essential like most quest NPCs. Extra weird you can't even detect him with spells... Definitely odd enough to raise questions, but yeah, still just a gameplay quirk which might not mean anything.

[slate shoal]

they kinda made the Falmer race pretty lazy lol
1 hair and eye color, surprisingly multiple skin tones even though you can't see them, it's effectively just high elf but considered a separate race

ignoring game design we do see them having flatter faces and sharper jaws

with what we saw in Skyrim I do think we might have playable falmer in the far future

[proven moss]

Possible for sure. This would jive better with the fact that Vythur seems to know him. In general avatars seem to be kind of temporary.

I think it's plausible he could be a ghost too whom Vythur doesn't realize is dead. But, if that's what the devs really intended, why not actually make him a ghost like other ghost npcs? So it seems very unlikely to be true.

[slate shoal]

I think it's: Bethesda doesn't want us to possibly end a race like that, or that no matter our character Gelebor will live lorewise unlike other characters where it doesn't matter as much

[proven moss]

We definitely need to ask a dev or ex-dev at some point about Gelebor

[woeful gyro]

I’d like to think there are some falmer out there that never trusted the dwemer enough to go to them

Or i guess they’d be their descendants considering how much time has passed

[proven moss]

There probably are more. Especially in the outer realms.

I think the master conjurer in Morthal talks about seeing Dwemer during his travels through Oblivion

Being in Oblivion was in fact how Yagrum Bagorn survived the disappearance of his kind, in fact

So it's plausible there are more Falmer living on some distant realm

[woeful gyro]

I also don’t think that they’d necessarily have to go to those lengths, unlike with the dwemer

[proven moss]

Well presumably Gelebor and Vyrthur both survived without even leaving Skyrim. So yes!

[slate shoal]

I asked the concept artist for the architecture and they said Warhammer marble or white granite stone

[slate shoal]

they're the only old elf race not confirmed essentially extinct

well I mean the Ayleids too but still lol

Dwemer are permanently dead unless a convincing arguement is made, the Falmer are just either uninterested with Nirn or too busy being religious, and the Ayleids I don't know what the Wild Elves do

[woeful gyro]

Aren’t ayleids just altmer

[slate shoal]

Aren't Chimer just Altmer (no)

"Heartland High Elves" but no they're functionally different and were considered a separate race, they were bronze and had white to blueish eyes

Altmer are more golden with a wider known range of eye colors

[woeful gyro]

Oh ok. I thought they were the same race just with a different society

[slate shoal]

nope unlike humans, elves tend to change more drastically in new homes it feels like /hj

[mossy moss]

Actually, yes.

Unlike humans, elves are separated by mythical and metaphysical schisms based on ideology or religion.

Humans are humans.

[slate shoal]

indeed

also there's something really funny about people agreeing the snow elves are probably still around somewhere

just being quiet and not engaging with the arena

[mossy moss]

Well, I mean, we know they integrated into the Nordic population via illusion magic. There is undoubtedly a not-insignificant number of Nords with unintentional Snow Elf ancestry.

[slate shoal]

wait I'm curious do you have a source on this? if I may ask

oog text Wulfric and the snow elf does imply falmeri-nedic/atmoran relationships as well

[woeful gyro]

Nords more like nerds 🤓

[mossy moss]

I do!

We know that we can never again be the Snow Elves and live freely in this world. We will forever be in hiding in one form or another. But there is no reason we cannot live life with the sun and the wind against our skin. There are those here who are friends to us and plan to help us once the threat has ended. We know now to survive we must be born anew. Outside, we will appear as though we belong here. Inside, we will carry our truth and our scars.
This is from the Diary of Faire Agarwen.

It’s one of my favorite texts on Snow Elf lore because it’s so easy to overlook.

[slate shoal]

I always interpreted this as "we're gonna become the betrayed willingly"

[slate shoal]

"we will always be in hiding" I always suspected the Falmer use shadow magic / illusion to just hide their homes in the Druadach, Jeralls, Velothi and more tbh

[mossy moss]

The Betrayed don’t live out in the sun.

[slate shoal]

true

interesting! I always misinterpreted that, them simply changing their appearance makes a lot of sense actually

it also explains why some Nords aren't racial supremacists /j

but naw it does explain why some Nords have paler skin and white eyes

[woeful gyro]

The Falmer are a really tragic story

[slate shoal]

perhaps some of them helped the Bosmer get to king whatshisname

[slate shoal]

with the Ayleids and Dwemer they're absolutely victims of their own hubris, with the Falmer, it's much more complex and unfair for them

we can't even fully assume what they wanted the eye for

[woeful gyro]

Do you think the night of tears was exaggerated?

[slate shoal]

it could've been to prevent Ysgramor from using it, especially if you take Wulfric as your own canon, then it implies his hate for elves could've driven fear in their hearts

[slate shoal]

in the same way Ulfric exaggerates yes

[mossy moss]

I don’t think the Night of Tears was exaggerated, no. It was, by all accounts, a massacre. Look at the sheer # of tombs in the ruins.

What I do think is we don’t know enough about the events leading up to it.

The Nords make it out to be a senseless slaughter that happened after previously amicable relations.

[woeful gyro]

Yeah, weren’t the Falmer pretty chill up to that point?

[slate shoal]

It could be many things
religious jihad?
simple fear?
the Falmer don't strike me as racial supremacists, nothing of their dialogue or text indicate it

[slate shoal]

the Falmer lived with Nedes and Atmorans peacefully up until saarthal, with the Atmorans supposedly even teaching the Falmer humor

[mossy moss]

On the other hand, how do we know it wasn’t an extremist group of Snow Elves? There’s a lot of questions with too few answers. I wholeheartedly believe the Nords overreacted.

[slate shoal]

here's my theory
Pilgrims who failed their journey to the Chantry are considered failures and shunned for the rest of their lives. Before this was built, perhaps some similar shunned folk had wanted to redeem themselves? by getting the eye of Magnus, which some of his role is done by Auri-El, perhaps they could get this and be shunned no more

[mossy moss]

Do I blame Ysgramor for going on a warpath afterwards? No, but it should have ended when he stopped. Instead, the next generation kept going. So did the next. Etc.

[slate shoal]

also we don't know anything about the other groups, HOWEVER they did worship TRINIMAC

And Trinimac did NOT like Lorkhan or Shor to the Nords

[mossy moss]

In my opinion the most unforgivable and least discussed part of Ysgramor’s story is that he took Snow Elf slaves. Windhelm was built by them.

[woeful gyro]

They just can’t catch a break lol

Better than what the dwemer had in store for them but that’s an insanely low bar

Hey, why did the dwemer do that? Was it for some kind of experiment or was it just because

[mossy moss]

Music.

Literally. The entire point was to show the Snow Elves the beauty of only seeing the world by the sounds it makes because the Dwemer were obsessed with tonal magic.

[slate shoal]

the people who founded Whiterun had Falmer slaves with them, and it's implied they cut out the tongues of their victims too, like what the hell Atmorans

[mossy moss]

We only request you partake of the symbol of our bond, the fruit of the stones around us. And as your vision clouds, as the darkness sets in, fear not. Know only our mercy and the radiance of our affection, which unbinds your bones to the earth before, and sets your final path to the music of your new eternity.

The Dwemer did not hide what they were doing.

[woeful gyro]

Is it weird that the fact that they thought they were doing the Falmer a favor makes them even more contemptible to me?

[slate shoal]

kirkbride would tell you that they don't think like humans do

like fundamentally we can't really apply humanity to them

they look and talk like us but they are NOT like us

[woeful gyro]

The dwemer specifically? Because this doesn’t seem to be the case with all the different species of elves that we can interact with

[mossy moss]

Yes, the Dwemer were taught by the Earthbones directly. That’s why they were so much more advanced. They believed they were equals to the et’Ada and had a different set of principles because of it.

[woeful gyro]

In that case it seems like less of an elves not thinking like humans thing and more like a product of a toxic culture

[mossy moss]

I mean… I disagree? They don’t think like humans, at least not the Dwemer.

It’s hard to think like mortals when you were given the secrets of the Original Spirits. The secrets of creation. They could hear the sound of music of Mundus. All of them.

Next to no mortals can make the same claim.

[slate shoal]

they're described as Bartleby people

applying anything "human" to them is a resounding "no"

[slate shoal]

"they were atheists in a world with gods"

[mossy moss]

They weren’t atheists. Not really, anyway. 🤔

[slate shoal]

yeah I remember seeing that somewhere

essentially for the dwemer in general they're "NOT"

[mossy moss]

Yeah, it’s kind of like believing you’re as divine as the gods. They know they exist and accept that, but they see them as no more important than them. No veneration.

[proven moss]

Both the Dwemer and the Psijics don't recognize the "gods" as such. Just like the ancient Aldmer, when their society was more egalitarian.

[mossy moss]

I love the Psijics. 🥺

But yeah, though the Dwemer definitely did not view the spirits in the same lens as the Psijic Order or Aldmer of yonder did.

Much less… admirably I mean.

[proven moss]

Maybe less admirably, yes I'd say that's true. But they all see them as ancestor spirits. And no reason to single out, say, Auri-El, for special praise.

Just another spirit among many

The Aldmer revere their ancestors, the Dwemer are Aldmer iconoclasts

Compared to the Altmer, Bosmer, Falmer, Ayleid, and Dunmer who all elevate certain spirits as especially divine - I think that shared trait stands out. Even if they go in opposite directions

[mossy moss]

I think the real thing we should consider is that Dwemer are not unified in their beliefs, as much as we may like to generalize them. Yagrum Bagarn mocks the gods in Morrowind and directly states that believing Dwemer philosophy to be unified is laughable. I wish we had more on them. 😭

[sharp lantern]

Maybe the real Dwemer are the friends we make along the way.

[sharp lantern]

Yeah, a classic case of this is with The Egg of Time. Bagarn states it is a counter to an argument on how Kagrenac's plan could go wrong - but that also shows that there were Dwemer who believed it could go wrong.

[mossy moss]

Precisely, yeah. I mean we already knew an entire flock of Dwemer left Resdayn because of some sort of ideological schism.

We don’t know the fine details, but we know there was a significant enough disagreement to justify moving to the other side of the continent.

[proven moss]

True. I mean, the Psijics, the Beautiful, the Direnni - all dissenting organizations among the Altmer. Let alone individuals like Ocato.

[mossy moss]

I think it’s easier to generalize Dwemer under an individual identity because we never meet them, Yagrum Bagarn notwithstanding.

We see Altmer who dissent from the ‘traditional’ Altmer philosophy.

[proven moss]

The Dwemer in Skyrim were also fighting eachother in the Aetherium Wars. Although that wasn't an ideological conflict but rather a one over resources. Still, I wonder how many Dwemer states existed independently in Skyrim. How many - if any - submitted to Dumac on Vvardenfell.

Despite having a game set in Skyrim it seems like we have a desert of actual lore details about the Dwemer living there

We know about them making a deal with the Falmer. We know about the Aetherium Wars, the War of the Crag... and that's about it from what I can pull from the top of my head

Given they were separate states, I wonder which ones made deals with the Falmer (the one in Markarth, certainly?)

It's all just been left very vague and void of detail

(this kind of stems from the fact this game was supposed to be for the Falmer but we ended up getting like almost zero Falmer ruins)

The Dwemer ruins were sick but I can't say I wasn't disappointed at the opportunity to explore ancient Falmer tombs

[rough temple]

Weird question regarding an OC backstory I’m trying to write: Can someone make a deal with Clavicus Vile but before he comes to collect their soul, they implant it in a soul gem? Can their spirit then communicate with people in the mortal realm from the Soul Cairn or whatever?

My character is a Breton duelist/fencer who made a deal with Vile to become a better swordsman, but managed to avoid eternal imprisonment in Vile’s domain by killing himself and transferring his soul to a gem. The soul gem then became a family relic that his descendants use to commune with his spirit and receive combat guidance, making him a house-god of sorts. The caveat, of course, is that Daedra will hunt down his bloodline for eternity. Is this plausible within the lore at all or is it complete drivel? Thanks 😂

[proven moss]

I vote plausible!

[slate shoal]

what .

do you mean that it was meant to have Falmer ruins but they used dwemer slop instead (which explains the marble and white granite stone usage)

[proven moss]

Nah, it was just fan speculation/expectation. Morrowind had the Dwemer ruins. Oblivion had the Ayleid ruins. Everyone knew Falmer had lived in Skyrim so we all expected...

Prior to TES:V there was no lore of Dwemer even existing in Skyrim (other than a mention of them settling the Velothi Mountains which run between Skyrim and Morrowind) So nobody expected it before it was revealed in promotionary material.

[slate shoal]

boooo bruh

I blame the genocidal Atmorans

[proven moss]

After Skyrim was initially released (before the release of Dawnguard) the dominant explanation for why there weren't any Falmer ruins was that the Falmer had built ice cities and they had all melted. ⛄

[slate shoal]

the Altmer had their Glass cities and the Falmer their Ice towers!!!

[sharp lantern]

Wasn't the dominant theory always that the Nords had demolished any trace of Falmer society in their genocide?

[orchid willow]

IIRC most of their buildings were made of ice too, so maybe the Nords somehow broke the enchantments on it on mass.

Otherwise, I have a bit of a lore question myself!

Could an Orc who worships Trinimac be a thing in Orsinium? Or was that only a thing in 2E?

And if they can feasibly be a Trinimac Worshipper and still use Volendrung / Earn it?

[sharp lantern]

Yes, in fact Trinimac worship among Orcs seems to be somewhat common amongst Orsinium Orcs, even if not the majority. King Kurog supported it in the Second Era, and King Gortwog did so in the Third.

Aa for Volendrung, I doubt that due to its connection to Malacath specifically.

[orchid willow]

Are the two sects so inimical?

[sharp lantern]

Inimical?

[orchid willow]

They uh, hate each other.

I never finished the Orsinium DLC

[sharp lantern]

Oh. I wouldn't go so far as to say that... but there's definitely a strong ideological difference.

Trinimac worshipping Orcs claim that Trinimac still lives, and that Malacath is just a thief trying to steal the Orcs to his side. (To oversimplify the matter)

So you can imagine how that causes friction between the die-hard supporters of either side.

[orchid willow]

Mm, maybe he sought out the Malacath shrine, did the offering for a chance to defy the god, and then ended up having something of a complete ideological shift.

[sharp lantern]

Tbh, there is precedent for the belief held by Trinimac worshipping Orcs. I personally believe there are two kinds of them - the aboriginal beastfolk Orcs of Tamriel, and the Orcs who are cursed Altmer who changed when Boethiah "ate Trinimac" and "created Malacath".

[slate shoal]

this is the realistic answer

[sharp lantern]

There are accounts of Orcs in Tamriel from before their supposed creation myth, after all.

[slate shoal]

alt world where Trinimachi Falmer help the Orsimer who still yet follow him /j

[orchid willow]

What exactly was revealed in the Orsinium chapter about Trinimac and Malacath?

I've been wanting to play a Trinimac Orc in a TTRPG as well.

[sharp lantern]

Honestly, it's been too long since I played Orsinium for me to completely go into details, that's also why I oversimplified it.

[orchid willow]

GAHHH I can hear your posts in Jauffre's voice lmao.

Interesting, reading the UESP now.

Just fascinates me. It's so unique.

[slate shoal]

I wonder what Udhelibor would sound like

[orchid willow]

A Protoss

[slate shoal]

huh

nah

maybe

[orchid willow]

Ah. Maybe you're more on the André moraph side of the spectrum!

But still with that voice reverb thingy

[sharp lantern]

Thanks to you, I have the same issue now when I read my own comments.

[orchid willow]

Ohhh crap, you know what would be dope? My character's lore is that he's a Trinimac worshipping orc warrior whose faith is so strong that he uses it to defy and force Daedra of Malcath to fight along side him to defy Malacath.

Maybe he even defeated a champion of Malacath for Volendrung, and uses it to channel his defiance

If I ever get to play Delvebound that would be so fun to homebrew up as a Crusader subtype...

[balmy salmon]

The original orcs could potentially have been goblins, because some goblin variants can be pretty large.

[sharp lantern]

Possible for some, but the Wood Orcs of Valenwood are known to have predated Aldmeri colonization, and they are definitely Orcs.

Though even for the other accounts, Topal was said to have found them in High Rock, which is a province that Orcs are associated with.

[prime peak]

Do all nords go to sovengard even if your like evil or could a elf worship talos and then go to sovengard

[sharp lantern]

Being good or bad is unrelated to it. Race does matter though.

[raw grail]

Eh, it'd seem not imo

[mossy moss]

The Last Dragonborn is welcome in Sovngarde regardless of race, as indicated by Tsun after defeating Alduin.

We also have an example of a non-Redguard going to the Redguard afterlife in ESO, so it’d seem the requirements are tied to culture more than race.

[raw grail]

The Great Harbingers paired with Kodlak gives an avenue for non-Nord harbingers to enter Sovngarde; we have examples of animals making it into Sovngarde, which are obviously not Nords; and we also know from multiple sources that Nords have a cultural means by which to accept others into their culture and such, with "Nords at Heart" and such. Signs generally point to faith being the biggest factor

[raw grail]

Those are both kind of exceptional arguably but are still significant evidence, especially considering the similarity between the Far Shores and Sovngarde

[mossy moss]

I agree with you, honestly. Skyrim was my first game, and I knew little about TES before playing it, but I wish it would have been Falmer ruins instead of Dwemer ruins if we could only get one. It’s a bit sad that they seem totally ignored despite being the dominant culture before Nords.

[glacial scarab]

Falmer ruins I blame on Bloodmoon.

Having to go to Solstheim for a Nordic account in a Nordic tomb to find proof for their existence isn't great for an idea of Falmer ruins on the mainland.

[subtle sage]

I just assumed the companions went ham on not just the Snow Elves but on all their villages, towns and cities (and of course the women and children too). Then either built on top of the ruins or buried the remnants to be forgotten by the generations followed after the original band of companions swept through Skyrim on a heavy metal induced genocide campaign

[subtle sage]

Is Bloodmoon an old TES adventure game like Redguard?

[glacial scarab]

DLC for TES3

[proven moss]

That was the first DLC to feature Solstheim

[slate shoal]

In Arena I believe there is a Nord town built on top of Falmer ruins, and Fort Greenwall is also above snow elf ruins
it's basically just genociders trying to erase history

[slate shoal]

I think this is in part due to spirits not being the r word after dying and going to Aetherius

[raw grail]

That took 3 tries but yeah honestly, good connection I think

[subtle sage]

considering lore the nords were justified in retaliating but possibly not conquering the whole province. But it's them or us story if anything

[slate shoal]

it really isn't a them or us lol it was more of a "CONQUER AND KILL for glory and honor!!!"

genociding native people and erasing their existence from history partially because they're a different race isn't justifiable, even if revenge for saarthal was, if that was even as big as Ysgramor made it to be

[mint osprey]

We are going to have dwemers again in tes 6

And probably ayleids

[raw grail]

Ysgramor also stopped wayyyy before

He got his revenge and was satisfied. Others carried on in his name until the Falmer were finally considered driven out in the early first era by the 13th of Ysgramor's line

Revenge doesn't even justify going as far as Ysgramor went, let alone continuing after he'd decided it was enough

[raw grail]

Eye for an eye and the world goes blind. What happens if we start taking whole heads for an eye?

[slate shoal]

honestly yeah

[glacial scarab]

It's also a city sack. Do you have any idea how common that is in any part of warfare?

[mossy moss]

Honestly, I can't blame him for going as far as he did when it comes to the revenge killings. What I take issue with is that he enslaved them as well.

[mossy moss]

As far as we know, the Snow Elves were not at war with the Atmorans yet when Saarthal was sacked.

Of course one should always consider that the only account of the sacking comes from incredibly biased Nords, but it is what we currently have available to use.

[subtle sage]

u know what the thalmor are up to right?

[slate shoal]

breaking news the Thalmor are ALSO wrong! they're killing innocent Altmer, Nords and other people!!

[subtle sage]

Ask the Dwemer they did the biggest crime

[uncut hatch]

Remember if comes from a Nord its biased, If it comes from a Imperial, its 100% true - this was factchecked true by skyrim loreheads

[subtle sage]

u also know why the Snow Elves did what they did right?

and the Aylids?

[slate shoal]

you have a poor understanding of the conflict of saarthal if you assume the snow elves did it out of hatred for another race my friend

[slate shoal]

this is genuinely how some people think

[uncut hatch]

Doesn't matter why they did it.

[subtle sage]

No they did it because they feared how fast they were reporducing

[slate shoal]

does a little bit actually

[slate shoal]

this is definitely a factor in it but most implications point towards the eye of magnus

as Falmer and Nedes and Atmorans actually had mostly friendly relations pre saarthal

[subtle sage]

Then it's worse, becomes about greed and rightful ownership when the Elves didn't even know it was there

[slate shoal]

the Falmer likely knew about it

[subtle sage]

just makes it look bad for them even more

[gaunt bear]

@slate shoal I’ve got an explanation for Sarthaal that doesn’t outright blame anyone:

As the Nords of Atmora were fleeing to Saarthal, they ended up discovering the Eye of Magnus. While in awe of it, a splinter group tried to access the power within it, without the required Staff.

When the Snow Elves at the time found out about it, they tried to prevent it from happening, but ultimately couldn’t. Things spiraled out of control from there, causing magical anomalies to attack Nords and Snow Elves alike.

By the time the dust settled, the damage was done, and Sarthaal was destroyed.

[slate shoal]

I don't think sacking a city for what could easily be "Ysgramor should not have this power" is nearly as bad as "enslave and mutilate them!!! they look different than us!"

[gaunt bear]

They knew about the Eye, they didn’t know it was under Sarthaal.

[slate shoal]

this is the most likely situation lol

[gaunt bear]

Think it could be made canon?

[raw grail]

I would like to point out the staff and eye aren't actually related that we know. The staff absorbs Magicka and the eye has lots of it

[slate shoal]

it keeps the Falmer in a way that's not randomly making them evil while keeping the Nords still as power hungry aggressors so yeah

[subtle sage]

Very funny you have a nuanced answer for the why when the elves are involved but not for the Atmorans....

[gaunt bear]

“To see through Magnus’ Eye without being blinded, you require his Staff. —The Augur of Dunlain.

[slate shoal]

I don't care about the Atmorans because they're invaders and genociders

[raw grail]

This is him being poetic using the same terms the College was using

[slate shoal]

and xenophobic

[raw grail]

It isn't even "actually" called the Eye of Magnus. That was a name chosen by the College almost at random, by their own admission

[subtle sage]

ok don't need irl politics bias to be in TES lore so he's ignored

[slate shoal]

hot take but if native people have their homeland invaded I don't think the invaders are good

[subtle sage]

have fun gents

[slate shoal]

me when I misunderstand tes as a whole (I wanted a simple cool warrior slop)

what a atmoran apologizer smh

[uncut hatch]

Honestly the best choice, this guy is a Neanderthal

[slate shoal]

isn't it said the Augur might lie to us if I remember right?

[raw grail]

Projects are underway to discern the origin and nature of the College's recent find in Saarthal. Any and all theories are currently being considered. Those with ideas should please speak with Mirabelle. At this time, there is no indication that, as has been rumored, the object is in fact a physical part of Magnus, the god of magic. It has been suggested that the object is a gateway to the realm of Aetherius, but nothing has proven that idea one way or the other. It has been proposed that the object is in fact the entirety of Aurbis in one physical space. This would of course mean that Tamriel, indeed all of Mundus, is actually contained within the sphere. It further suggests that we are somehow then outside our own existence while looking in at it. While the idea seems dubious at best, it has not, at present, been entirely ruled out.

[raw grail]

Dayum dawg, you could at least hide the dehumanization

[slate shoal]

I do like how Bethesda at times lets things remain unconfirmed as to allow for theories to take root

[gaunt bear]

Not all Atmorans were xenophobic and genocidal, it was just the few who were xenophobic and genocidal that ended up making the most noise. And, as we all know, a few bad apples ended up spoiling the bunch.

[raw grail]

It's their MO

[slate shoal]

if I had a nickel for every human fan that did that when I mentioned snow elves aren't bad, I'd have a lot of money

[raw grail]

Tbf I don't think Atmorans are bad either

Blaming a whole people for the crimes of their brethren is a no go whether they're man or mer

[slate shoal]

TRUE we know with the tale of Wulfric that some were friends to the Falmer (ignoring the Atmoran twisting of words to try to make out the elves as evil)

[slate shoal]

indeed, I wish we had more conflict and stories that showed this

it feels like if what you say were true that these Nords, like the Falmer, were mostly written away from history, ALTHOUGH it's possible some of these Atmorans-Nords did help the Falmer hide amongst them if you interpret the line from the Falmer diary that way

[uncut hatch]

"During the city's construction, the Nords unearthed the Eye of Magnus, which they attempted to keep secret by burying it under the city. The Snow Elves learned of the powerful artifact, however, and wanted it for themselves. They attacked the city in order to secure this power, an event known as the Night of Tears. One of the participants was Serenarth, a Snow Elf wizard who made a bargain with malevolent forces after being shot by Ysgramor, and has been encased in ice ever since with the threat of thawing out and exacting vengeance. Everyone except for Ysgramor and his two sons, Yngol and Ylgar, were killed and the city was burned to the ground. Ysgramor fled back to Atmora to gather an army with which to fight the Elves." https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Saarthal

[raw grail]

The idea that the Nords are xenophobes comes from their own cultural myth

[uncut hatch]

Snow elves attacked and killed every Nord besides three of them, but ur probably correlating the Nords with white people and thinking "whitey bad" so ur blaming them.

[slate shoal]

bro what lol

[raw grail]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Children_of_the_Sky

I'm not saying Nords are xenophobes, but their culture has significant xenophobic elements to it, and has for as long as we've known about them

[slate shoal]

I'm correlating Atmorans with how they're shown and describe themselves

[raw grail]

This makes sense considering the insularity and hostility their past and environments have required, but that doesn't mean it's not there, nor does it mean that it's actually healthy

[slate shoal]

Ysgramor's Atmorans were definitely bad, but friendly Atmorans definitely existed and likely didn't condone the slaughter of the Falmer

[raw grail]

I still think that's an oversimplification but such things happen

[slate shoal]

even IF some Falmer attacked for the eye, like roping the Atmorans together is wrong, roping all Falmer together is also

[slate shoal]

indeed

I do think modern Nords are relatively more lax on race relationships, to the point even mer can join the Companions

[woeful gyro]

Lore question what would happen if you used an elder scroll as toilet paper

[raw grail]

Although even that was very controversial when it first happened

[slate shoal]

true!

[raw grail]

So long as you don't look at it you good

[slate shoal]

bigger question, how good would a Doobie wrapped in an elder scroll hit

[raw grail]

And if you look at it and don't understand it at all you also good

[slate shoal]

elder scrolls? I sure hope they do

[woeful gyro]

Snort some skooma off of it

Wait is skooma snorted or smoked? Or both?

[raw grail]

Smoked and drank

[slate shoal]

you can smoke it in a skooma bubbler or drink it outright

also I like the implication that the Falmer could've frozen Atmora at any time but didn't

[uncut hatch]

Yes, The Nords weren't fighting the Falmer because they were xenophobes, they did it because the Falmer wiped out their settlement.

[slate shoal]

not entirely but that did influence it

Ysgramor likely twisted the events of Saarthal into gaining followers to fight in the same way Ulfric twisted the white gold concordat into having an anti elf army devoted to him

[uncut hatch]

so the Falmer, FAFO

[slate shoal]

this is just stupid man
this isn't mess around find out, it's a complex conflict that ultimately led to the genocide of innocent people

[uncut hatch]

"innocent people" you're acting like they didn't attack first.

[slate shoal]

to say anything else is to claim victims deserved their suffering, which is stupid

[slate shoal]

you're acting like all the Falmer wanted to attack

[uncut hatch]

Do you know that they didn't, they attacked first?

[woeful gyro]

The Falmer weren’t a hive mind collective. We have no idea how many were actually involved in the attack

[uncut hatch]

You don't know that, also "hivemind collective" is not what i'm saying.

[slate shoal]

when the Falmer are described as unified, it just means they're not at conflict with each other, not that they're a hive mind belief system

[woeful gyro]

I don’t know what?

[uncut hatch]

We don't know what tactics the falmer used when fighting the Nords, you can only guess, and ur assuming that they didn't.

[fading flame]

Elder scrolls games make it hard to seem how many people actually died and whatnot like millions of people in the imperial city.

[woeful gyro]

Why are you talking about tactics lol. What I said is we don’t know how many Falmer were actually involved in the attack

[raw grail]

Falmer attacking their settlement was the inciting incident. Nords driving Falmer effectively to extinction was because of a cultural distaste for elves and a view that any outside of their people are Other

They see themselves as eternal outsiders and invaders, and even when they conquer and rule another people; they feel no kinship with them.

[uncut hatch]

The attack wasn't the end of it though.

[raw grail]

They didn't even stop fighting when Ysgramor did

[uncut hatch]

Did the Atmorans even know what a elf was before encountering the Snow Elf?

[raw grail]

Yes, their first war was against elves

They conquered Atmora from elves

[fading flame]

I think they encounted the dwarves eventually but they're underground so their empire is kinda hard to like really do diplo with.

[raw grail]

They and elves agree on this

[slate shoal]

they slaughtered the elves of Atmora before starting a civil war, causing men to leave and settle in Falmereth with the consent of the Snow Elves

oh boy I wanna see how some of these fans react to tamrielic being based on Altmer language lol

[raw grail]

Well it was mutual slaughter

[slate shoal]

true !!!

[uncut hatch]

Do you have a source showing that it they drove them to effectively* to extinction because of this?

[raw grail]

What? No, they didn't drive them to extinction, they drove them to the rest of the world

Oh wait I didn't notice the message. My bad, my bad

[slate shoal]

Battle of Moesring was the last hope for the Falmer lol they'd been genociding the Falmer for a major portion of the first era

[uncut hatch]

I worded it wrong anyway.

[slate shoal]

and the dwemer put the nail in the coffin

moral of the story, Atmorans suck but Dwemer SUCK /j

[raw grail]

No, it's a subtext thing from the fact they continued well after vengeance had been secured, paired with their cultural ideals and historical conflicts

[slate shoal]

the Falmer texts, Gelebor's dialogue, Snow Prince (written by an atmoran too)

Calcelmo's stone in Markarth

[uncut hatch]

the subtext could honestly be anything, we don't when the culture developed.

[raw grail]

This isn't exclusive to them, either. There's other cultures which have similar ideals in TES, or significant factions within those cultures

(that's an inclusive or, not an exclusive or)

[uncut hatch]

So the Atmorans got attacked by the Snow Elves and nearly wiped out their settlement, The Atmorans came back with a Army and fought the Snow elves, for all we know the Snow Elves could've fought the Nords until they were nearly extinct. so it was probably a mutual thing.

[slate shoal]

nah it's implied the snow elves were almost always on the losing side seems like

plus Atmorans still had Atmora during the war

[uncut hatch]

Did the snow elves know about Atmora?

[slate shoal]

yep

if you think the ice book added in ESO was true then it implies the Falmer didn't use their power to destroy Atmora until after the genocide ended

[uncut hatch]

I didn't even know Atmora was destroyed

[slate shoal]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Ship_of_Ice

well it froze over

MK answer: it's frozen in time
Realistic answer: Frozen so cold even Nords can't inhabit it

[uncut hatch]

So they killed all the elves and humans that lived atmora aswell?

[slate shoal]

1. all the mer in Atmora were already dead by Atmoran hands
2. correct, but this was revenge for what they did. consider that this takes place after the battle of Moesring, which essentially guaranteed the Atmorans won forever.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Ship_of_Ice

oh wait already linked it I'm stupid LOL

[uncut hatch]

Yeah I knew that, I just didn't know what caused it, cool.

[slate shoal]

it's possibly Falmer, possibly the gods, possibly just happened, we don't really know

I personally think it was Falmer fed up with the cruelty of the Atmorans

[uncut hatch]

Or maybe just the lorewriters not wanting to deal with Atmora for a long time.

[slate shoal]

honestly it's possibly just this

ultimately though it's a case of innocent people killed for the wrong actions of a few

[mossy moss]

This is one of those things I always raise my eyebrow about. We are told that there were once elves on Atmora (previously called Altmora), but is it truly a reliable narrative? Something to consider, in my opinion, is that mythohistory is almost always written with bias in mind.

The Nords claim that relations with the Snow Elves was peaceful, and the sacking of Saarthal was entirely unprovoked. This could be true, or the Nords could be hiding something that they did to encourage the attack. I find the same to be true about the alleged annihilation of the elves on Altmora. The only source for such a thing comes from Altmeri mythohistorical sources. The reliability, especially given frequent Altmer attempts to demonize Men, is certainly questionable.

[slate shoal]

true!

[tender ruin]

It's implied the Nords were after the Staff of Magnus, or at the very least were aware of and seeking a powerful artifact within Saarthal, so no, it wasn't unprovoked

[mossy moss]

What?

[tender ruin]

Did you even play the College of Winterhold questline? 💀

[proven moss]

You mean the Falmer were after the Eye of Magnus.

At least, that's the explanation the questline gives for the Night of Tears.

I would call that an unprovoked attack, unless the Atmorans had announced plans to do something really bad with it.

[woeful gyro]

I think that we probably don’t have the full story, mostly regarding whatever happened leading up to that night. Afaik, the Falmer were pretty chill up until then, and I find it odd that they just spontaneously became violent even if they just wanted the eye

[mossy moss]

He left the server. 🤔

[woeful gyro]

Who

[mossy moss]

GingerByte

[woeful gyro]

Why put /j at the end of this it’s objectively true

[proven moss]

Yeah there's definitely more going on there than meets the eye

[woeful gyro]

I get it

[mossy moss]

Always consider that our source for what happened is Nordic! If something happened before Saarthal, they won’t say. Or no record of it exists. I just think Nordic bias should be taken into account.

It may have been provoked but what we have at our disposal says it was it wasn’t. It’s interesting to note though that Atmorans did not have a record of peaceful conquest. XD

Attempting to settle peacefully alongside the Falmer would be very uncharacteristic of them.

[proven moss]

I think it's even weirder that the Eye was not removed from Saarthal

If it was the object for the attack, why'd the Falmer just leave it there

[woeful gyro]

Could they not access it for some reason?

Only half-joking here, but that thing is so weird, what if it just didn’t want to be moved then???

[proven moss]

Possible maybe

[woeful gyro]

MK said it’s a 5th era space probe. I don’t really like that though, so what is it more realistically?

Could it literally just be Magnus’ eye?

[mossy moss]

Probably something else, given the Psijics kind of mock the name.

[proven moss]

Another odd detail. One of King Harald Hand-Free's archmage's sons, Jyrik, is guarding the Eye.

That's like, solidly 1st Era stuff. 1st (Nordic) Empire.

Kinda suggests the Nords were still tinkering with it then. I've brought this up before but most people don't think it's significant. Usually they think Jyrik was just imprisoned in Saarthal without knowing what was deeper in the dungeon.

Which, you know, fair.

[mossy moss]

Oh, he wasn’t guarding it.

He was sealed there because he fled there as Archmage Geirmund chased him.

[woeful gyro]

Maybe it’s just some crazy magic battery or something?

[proven moss]

That of course brings up another unanswered question. If the Falmer attacked Saarthal over the Eye, and Ysgramor brought down vengence on them upon his return, why didn't the Nords move they Eye to their new capital? Why didn't they continue to explore using the Eye? Did Ysgramor not know about it? Did the Atmorans not pick through the ruins of their former settlement at all? To recover bodies, possessions, anything?

[woeful gyro]

I know it’s just a macguffin used to move the plot forward but still it’s fun to think about

[proven moss]

Yeah definitely. In this case it seems there will never be any answers, but take heart that there weren't any answers in the first place (probably).

[woeful gyro]

Yeah I doubt any of the devs actually know it’s origins or whatever

[mossy moss]

I thank the Eye for letting me see my favorite faction. 🙏

[slate shoal]

because it's a joke blank statement ignoring the nuance of the situation

[slate shoal]

war with the dragon cult and Falmer might've took priority

[proven moss]

I had to go make sure I wasn't imagining things:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Under_Saarthal
I mean, maaaybe he just happens to be in the same room. But he's drawing power from the Eye (or maybe the Eye is puppeteering him). And we use the Saarthal Amulet to access them both. So whomever locked him in Saarthal had to have had this amulet... and the Eye is practically right there. That means Geirmund must have known about it right?

Mmm, the Writ of Sealing also makes it sound like he was dead when they locked him in there

[mint osprey]

Just found a book Draugr and the Dragon Cult

Im confused. So draugrs are immortal because they serve to dragon cult and give energy to dragon priests. But nords hate dragons, they killed most of them in a dragon war. How is it possible that every single nordic tomb has more dragon cult followers than other people?

Loading screen from skyrim says opposite

It is unknown why Draugr roam the tombs of Skyrim, but it is rumored that they once served the dragons ... and were deprived of mortal rest for betrayal

So are they blessed or cursed, which one is truth?

@raw grail i have a question for you because you seem to be smartest here

Does the principle of mythopoeia work for the Daedra? If some random dremora gains enough followers, will he be able to become a Daedra lord with his own plane?

And also i think you told us that daedra are not evil because they live with their nature. But cant they choose it? When Trinnimak became Malacath did he choose to become a lord of rogues and curses? Or universe just gave him this purpose? Same for Meridia. Did she decide to become a some sort of protector or this idea just randomly appeared in her head as soon as she become a daedra princess?

[slate shoal]

both

[raw grail]

That's probably not true

[raw grail]

That's not how mythopoeia works

[raw grail]

Malacath did not choose his nature. Malacath's nature is Trinimac's as twisted and altered by Boethiah. She didn't choose, nor did it just randomly pop into her head. Her sphere is a result of her creation, her actions, and the things that have happened to her

It's kinda liiiiike...
I like TES. I didn't choose to like TES, but I like TES. I did choose to engage in TES, because I found I like TES. Meridia likes light. She hardly chose to any more than I chose whether I like TES. Imo the difference is that she has no choice but to engage in the things her nature predisposes her to

[raw grail]

Not all draugr are actually from Dragon Cult ruins. It's the generic undead in any Nordic ruin in Skyrim, whether from before or after the Dragon Cult, or in one case even a Reachfolk tomb for some reason. It's also worth remembering the dragon cult seemed to be a system of government in addition to a religion: it was a theocracy, with the leader being as much despots as they were priests. I'd expect most of the citizens of a city belonging to the dragon cult would have been dragon cultists themselves

[sharp lantern]

Not all Draugr are the same, some Nords turn into Draugr because of cannibalism.

[mint osprey]

So how does it work? What do you need to become a daedra lord? Just be bug and live in oblivion? It seems their number is unlimited and they can appear and dissappear unlike aedra who are only 9

[mint osprey]

How do they get their nature? It's just random things: knowledge, hunting, curses, craziness, destruction, plague

Why exactly this things. Is there any explanation other than "developers chose randomly"

[mint osprey]

I understand this, by my question I meant what exactly makes them undead?

I remember someone suggested here that dragon priests are powerfull enough to reanimate corpses all over skyrim

[raw grail]

They're aspects of the universe which have become realized and distinct in that realization

[raw grail]

It probably varies depending on context

[mint osprey]

How is hunt aspect of universe?

We have frost plane of oblivion with frost atronachs but there is no Lord of frost, so frost is not an aspect of universe?

I'm just trying to understand the system

Or destruction was not an aspect of universe until Dagon become a daedra lord?

[mossy moss]

That’s how you become a citizen of the Shivering Isles.

[mint osprey]

Ni ni ni ni ni ni ni ni ni ni ni ni ni ni ni ni ni ni

[mossy moss]

But anyway, the Book of Daedra has this to say about Hircine:

Hircine, whose sphere is the Hunt, the Sport of Daedra, the Great Game, the Chase, known as the Huntsman and the Father of Manbeasts.
The Hunt seems to be intricately tied to Daedra which are still elements of the universe.

[raw grail]

There are more than 9 Aedra, such as Y'ffre, Phynaster, etc. To become a Daedric Prince (not Lord, Lord is more general) is more complicated and kind of hard to talk about in brief, but see Shivering Isles for an example. Mannimarco is also pretty close but not quite there

[raw grail]

Why wouldn't it be? It exists, doesn't it?

[raw grail]

It is, but it is not one which has become realized as a god

[mint osprey]

I thought aedra are only dudes who made the world, others are et-ada or whatever

[mint osprey]

This has a lot if gaps, I can make up hundreds of aspects that does not have a daedra lord keeping eye on it. So why this exact 17 things are,so important to have a daedralord tied to it?

[mossy moss]

I think more people need to realize Aedra and Daedra are not actually a dichotomy.

[raw grail]

et'Ada captures a larger set of spirits. Aedra are "our ancestors". This includes the 9 you're familiar with which made themselves the most important through Convention, but also includes those who became the first mortals, sacrificed themselves to create the world itself and its laws, etc

[mint osprey]

Yeah, so Yffre is not one if them

[mossy moss]

Y’ffre is an Aedra.

[raw grail]

Wdym? Her primary characteristic is literally archetypical Aedra stuff

The Earthbones are Aedra who sacrificed themselves to become the world and its laws. She is like the Earthbone

[mossy moss]

More than just the 8+1 were part of Creation.

[mint osprey]

Aaaah

[raw grail]

Yee, they're just the ones that made themselves the most major through Convention

[mint osprey]

I thought there were only 9

[mossy moss]

Oh no, my dear, there are many, many more. =)

[raw grail]

It's like if you have a whole faction, 9 of which met up to organize stuff, but the rest of which were still part of the faction

And one of the 9 got killed af

[mint osprey]

Is magnus aedra?

[raw grail]

Kind of?

[mossy moss]

Yesn’t, in my opinion.

[raw grail]

Yeah. He's like "Aedric" in a sense but doesn't necessarily meet the full criteria of sacrificing himself

[mossy moss]

Magnus is identified as a Magne-Ge, but he ultimately still gave a part of himself during Creation. He merely did not give all of himself.

But again, the difference between Aedra and Daedra is way more complicated than it seems.

[mint osprey]

So basically there are no limitations and devs can make new aedra and daedra any time they want

[mossy moss]

🤔 I feel like the phrasing of that discredits the creativity of ‘godhood’ in TES but is not entirely inaccurate.

[raw grail]

Part of the setting is that one can ascend to godhood and gods themselves are the result of self reflection, and mortals are an attempt at self reflection on the part of gods

[mint osprey]

But this would be like "this aedra/daedra always existed you guys just didn't know" as they did with Itelia. But there can't be completely new big spirit, only if case is "mortal took someone's else's place"

[mossy moss]

I don’t think they’ll try an Ithelia situation again if I’m honest.

It did not go well.

[raw grail]

I'd think about it this way... I'm a person. I have parts. I can label those parts and recognize them as distinct. I have an arm. I've realized my arm as distinct even though it's a part of myself. I have parts of myself that exist but which I haven't named separately from others. I have not recognized them as significant enough to differentiate them from the rest of myself, or from something else which it is part of

Perhaps a specific part of my forearm, to stick with that. Now imagine it's not me, it's a universe

[mint osprey]

Btw they call it unresolved fates but Itelia is basically TVA from marvel.

[mossy moss]

Not really? Her job isn’t to make sure the timeline stays intact.

[raw grail]

I can split myself into as many parts as I want by giving them new names, realizing them as distinct. That doesn't devalue the names - that is what gives the names power

[mossy moss]

Not that it matters anyway because she’s walking a different Path now and is no longer a part of the Path we walk.

[mint osprey]

Now im interested in it from development point of view. Imagine you are a developer and you need to create gods who represent the most significant aspects of universe. And you choose slavery, bargains and alcohol party

[mint osprey]

Maybe they won't, but they can, right?

[mossy moss]

They could, sure.

[mint osprey]

I remember one youtuber said it's was the best addition to lore in eso. What is wrong with it?

One more thing. What determines power of daedra? There is a lot cold related stuff in universe but we don't have Lord of Frost. As googler said it has not become realized as a god. So what makes daedra be huge ugly creatures instead of just ideas or spirits

[raw grail]

They don't have to be the most significant

[mint osprey]

What makes Clavicus Wile more significant for universe than potential lord of water for example?

[mint osprey]

Okay so my next question was about it, what makes them be daedra lords

I will rephrase. If they are not most important why are they most powerful?

Why some daedroth can't become a daedric lord if he made out of same space goo as they are

[raw grail]

A Daedric Lord is any Daedra which possessed a Plane of Oblivion of their own. Not all Lords are Princes. Hollowjack and Fa-Nuit-Hen are Daedric Lords, but not Daedric Princes. Daedric Princes are particularly broad. It's less about significance and more about breadth. To give a example: Hircine is more than the Daedric Prince of the Hunt, that's just the most literal expression of the predator-prey relationship. He has a Demiprince of Fishing beneath him. That's a less broad, more specific sphere within "hunting". I think this is easiest to see going from the top down. This is a simplification to get the point across. If we placed the aspects of Aurbis on a pyramid, we'd have few aspects up top which embody very very broad concepts and so encompass large portions of Aurbis, whereas lower down we'd have many, many, many smaller aspects which embody the most specific portions of Aurbis. Those at the top would be Anu and Padomay. IS and IS NOT, stasis and chaos. These are the two most broad concepts in Aurbis, encompassing the rest of the universe between them. The next down the ladder would be the gods. The first to emerge is also a good demonstration of what I mean: he is Time, which is much more specific than IS or IS NOT. Further down than that, we have the direct scions of the gods, the more specific aspects of themselves which have become differentiated one way or another. This might be the Demiprince of Fishing, for example. Even further down, toward the bottom, would be mortals and the like, created from the sacrifice and reproduction of the gods which made Nirn. Their concepts are so limited and specific it's hard to put anything to it besides their most identifiable self, so much as to seem insignificant even though so, so many immortal spirits who weren't even there for the creation of Nirn can't stop paying attention to them

I think Khajiiti and Altmeri creation myths put this most explicitly

"Anu encompassed, and encompasses, all things. So that he might know himself he created Anuiel, his soul and the soul of all things. Anuiel, as all souls, was given to self-reflection, and for this he needed to differentiate between his forms, attributes, and intellects. Thus was born Sithis, who was the sum of all the limitations Anuiel would utilize to ponder himself. Anuiel, who was the soul of all things, therefore became many things, and this interplay was and is the Aurbis.

"At first the Aurbis was turbulent and confusing, as Anuiel's ruminations went on without design. Aspects of the Aurbis then asked for a schedule to follow or procedures whereby they might enjoy themselves a little longer outside of perfect knowledge. So that he might know himself this way, too, Anu created Auriel, the soul of his soul. Auriel bled through the Aurbis as a new force, called time. With time, various aspects of the Aurbis began to understand their natures and limitations. They took names, like Magnus or Mara or Xen. One of these, Lorkhan, was more of a limit than a nature, so he could never last long anywhere.

"As he entered every aspect of Anuiel, Lorkhan would plant an idea that was almost wholly based on limitation. He outlined a plan to create a soul for the Aurbis, a place where the aspects of aspects might even be allowed to self-reflect. He gained many followers; even Auriel, when told he would become the king of the new world, agreed to help Lorkhan. So they created the Mundus, where their own aspects might live, and became the et'Ada.

- The Monomyth

And Fadomai gave birth to Lorkhaj, the last of her litter, in the Great Darkness. And the Heart of Lorkhaj was filled with the Great Darkness. And when he was born, the Great Darkness knew its name and it was Namiira.
- Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi
Notice that the Great Darkness existed before, but knowing its name and being separated from Lorkhaj came simultaneously

Thief Goes to Cyrodiil also discusses it pretty explicitly

As the process of subcreation continued, both Anu and Padhome awakened. For to see your antithesis is to finally awaken. Each gave birth to their souls, Auriel and Sithis, and these souls regarded the Aurbis each in their own part, and from this came the etada, the original patterns. These etada eventually congealed.

Anu's firstborn, for he mostly desired order, was time, anon Akatosh. Padhome's firstborn went wandering from the start, changing as he went, and wanted no name but was branded with Lorkhan. As time allowed more and more patterns to individualize, Lorkhan watched the Aurbis shape itself and grew equally delighted and tired with each new shaping. As the gods and demons of the Aurbis erupted, the get of Padhome tried to leave it all behind for he wanted all of it and none of it all at once.

And later, on the Divines making themselves the most powerful

"Sons and daughters of" should be read as associates of/associated with, especially insofar as this association was a conscious choice.

Today the common parlance is that only the eight that followed Lorkhan and created the Mundus are truly "Aedra," but this is folly. Some were not even the strongest of the Aetherius-aligned etada at the time, but were made as such by their creation of the dawn.

This can also be recognized from the bottom up in the way that mortals achieve godhood, but that's a harder picture to paint. I can attempt with Talos if you wish but it may just be confusing

[mint osprey]

aspect of mephala (lies, sex, murder, and secrets) seems to me as a specification of aspect of boethia (deceit, conspiracy, murder, treachery, sedition) but they are on the same level while with this logic mephala supposed to be a demigod serving boethia. same with vaermina (nightmares) must serve namira (darkness)

and the thing about monomyth. if initially there were only "big guys" who made hist, elnofey, dremora, scamps and all other dudes?

[raw grail]

They overlap but there is a significant difference that can be hard to see

It's hard to relay those differences with every single overlap unless we're going at this for the next several weeks

I can help with Boethiah and Mephala more quickly if you want but that won't specifically help you with the others unless you do legwork yourself

[mint osprey]

and it still doesn't answer my question. Well, some aspects realized themselves and decided to do something. Why didn't other aspects become aware of themselves ? The thing that Aedra and Daedra cover themselves with their characters clearly does not constitute a complete set of what the scroll universe is

[raw grail]

I mean, did you expect a complete set?

[mint osprey]

well, it would make more sense because they were all split from one thing

if you them as pieces of puzzle, do we have a full picture or some parts are missing?

[raw grail]

I can't tell you why specific aspects of the universe have realized themselves and others haven't in the same way. They haven't yet that we've been exposed to. They could have, and we simply haven't been exposed to them. We know there are other gods which simply don't interact with Nirn for one reason or another, such as being trapped in a cycle like Jyggalag. We're often unaware of them until they become relevant

[mint osprey]

okay, now i have lore accurate explanation for case if devs will add more daedra princes

[raw grail]

That we have the information at our disposal to come even this close to understanding creation and metaphysics is already more than we know about our own world in some ways

[mint osprey]

okay i am satisfied

i have a new question

i dont think you can answer, but why bethesda dont create a new daedra in every new game? that would be cool because we would have more daedric artifacts

[raw grail]

Go on

[mint osprey]

thats all, i dont have more questions

for now

[raw grail]

I would suspect that, while it can be kind of fun, it is also a significant change in the setting, upsets many older fans even if it is justified, and is hard to justify in the first place because you need a reason that they were so irrelevant before as to be unknown, and now suddenly are relevant

That said, they have essentially introduced a new Prince every other game if you think about it
Daggerfall: Hircine was new
Oblivion: Jyggalag was effectively new
ESO: Ithelia is new

[mint osprey]

how did they justified Hircine?

[raw grail]

A lot of the metaphysics was not codeified in the specific way it is now so I think he was just newly discovered

I don't remember a specific justification

Ah. Apparently the summoning ritual was only known by specific witches. Interesting

[mint osprey]

well since we figured out that et-ada they have now do not cover all possible aspects, then we can have some more. i dont think it can be the problem

there were no dwemers in skyrim but now they just there

so its not a big deal to add something new

[raw grail]

I believe it was established that Nords and Dwemer interacted quite a bit prior to Skyrim, with Rourken and Shalidor even fighting. I guess I'm not sure it's explicitly said they had ruins in Skyrim, but considering Skyrim is in between the two provinces they're most associated with...

[zinc fable]

Who or what is, m'aiq the liar?

[mint osprey]

I mean, before the release of Skyrim, there was no information in lore that dwemers lived in Skyrim, that the Falmers turned into goblin like creatures, and that the Nords had a cult of dragon worship. if you look at it from the point of view of the in-game world, then this is simply impossible that in the two neighboring to Skyrim provinces, no one knew about such huge chunks of Skyrim's history. but from the point of view of creating games, "we didn't come up with it before, but now we did." So if Bethesda makes a game about Valenwood, for example, nothing prevents them from adding a couple of new gods or ancient ruins of another elven race that other provinces don't know about

[mint osprey]

just a joke from developers, i think even his name is a reference to someone from bethesda

[zinc fable]

Aw, I thought it was going to be another Sheogorath situation. Where a god of some kind was made flesh and mad or something

[raw grail]

I don't think it's that no one knew, I think of it more as we simply weren't exposed to that specific information in that specific way. We knew Alduin was a major god in their religion

Alduin (World Eater): Alduin is the Nordic variation of Akatosh, and only superficially resembles his counterpart in the Nine Divines. For example, Alduin's sobriquet, 'the world eater', comes from myths that depict him as the horrible, ravaging firestorm that destroyed the last world to begin this one. Nords therefore see the god of time as both creator and harbinger of the apocalypse. He is not the chief of the Nordic pantheon (in fact, that pantheon has no chief; see Shor, below) but its wellspring, albeit a grim and frightening one.
Ysmir, their 'name of kings,' literally translates to "dragon of the North"
Ysmir (Dragon of the North): The Nordic aspect of Talos. He withstood the power of the Greybeards' voices long enough to hear their prophecy. Later, many Nords could not look on him without seeing a dragon.
We knew Goldbrand had something to do with northern dragons
This magical Sword is almost a complete mystery. Thieves tell tales about its golden make and how it was actually forged by ancient dragons of the North. Their tales claim that it was given to a great knight who was sworn to protect the dragons. The Sword lends its wielder the ability to do fire damage on an enemy. Goldbrand has not been sighted in recent history and is said to be awaiting a worthy hero.

We knew about Falmer from this quest and this entry in PGE1

Snow Elves
Nords attribute almost any misfortune or disaster to the machinations of the Falmer, or Snow Elves, be it crop failure, missing sheep, or a traveler lost crossing a high pass. These mythical beings are popularly believed to be the descendants of the original Elven population, and are said to reside in the remote mountain fastnesses that cover most of Skyrim. However, there is no tangible evidence that this Elven community survives outside the imaginations of superstitious villagers.[YR 7]

Which doesn't give us "they are goblinish now" but sets up that narrative. These things didn't exist yet in the way they do now, but their creation was based on pre-established themes and connections being brought to a more complete conclusion

[raw grail]

Nothing prevents them from doing that, and they do it

We didn't know about the Wilderking before ESO for example

[sharp lantern]

Have you ever heard of the cities of Cheydinhal, Bruma, Kvatch, Anvil, Leyawiin, Bravil, Kvatch, or Skingrad? Well nobody in Tamriel did until TES IV came rolling around.

The lore is built upon with each new installment in the franchise.

[mint osprey]

yes thats what im talking about

[raw grail]

I think adding a new god that's associated with Nirn is easier than adding a new Daedric Prince, though. We know of the Daedric Princes we know about because they interact with Nirn. If they introduce a new Daedric Prince, they have to explain why they previously weren't interacting with Nirn in a recognizable way, and now they are. This issue doesn't exist with specific cultural gods and details, which we're only exposed to because we read a specific book or whatever. To give an irl comparison, it's possible for me to be surrounded by books and still never learn a single thing about Anishinaabe religion. This isn't because information about Anishinaabe religion doesn't exist, or because no one knows about it, or because people aren't talking about it. It's because it isn't relevant to the specific set of books currently in front of me. It's very specific, cultural information, rather than information which is likely to be relevant to multiple cultures across the globe thanks to universal and direct interaction with it, such as gravity. Everyone has a perspective on gravity because everyone interacts with it. You might have different people ascribing gravity to different things, but it's widely relevant, so every single culture will have some perspective on it. Princes are more like gravity. Specific, culturally relevant, Nirn-related gods and cults are more like the former example

[mint osprey]

so they kind of locked themselves with what they have by saying that daedra interact everywhere with everyone

[raw grail]

I don't think I'd put it that way, because it's more like an incidental consequence of their nature than like

[mint osprey]

but we have demiprinces that most people dont know about even though they are pretty active

[raw grail]

"oops, I didn't mean to make it harder to make Princes"

[raw grail]

Like? The only Demiprinces I can think of that we've heard interact with people much are like, Umaril and Fa-Nuit-Hen

[mint osprey]

Hollowjack

Mannimarco is a demiprince now i guess

[raw grail]

Hollowjack isn't a Demiprince but does he really interact with most of the cultures in TES?

[raw grail]

No, he's not

[mint osprey]

im not sure what is he exactly but he has his own realm in oblivion

[raw grail]

He's a Daedric Lord

[mint osprey]

so he is like a dremora or something?

but unique

[raw grail]

No, they're not Daedric Lords

Daedric nobility is mostly about having a plane/domain of your own, often in subordinance to a Prince

[mint osprey]

but dont they have their own little realms sometimes? some of them even called dremora lord

[raw grail]

A Dremora Lord isn't necessarily a Daedric Lord. If a specific Dremora owns a Plane of Oblivion, then yeah, sure, it's a Daedric Lord

[mint osprey]

okay, so what is Hollowjack? is he also an aspect of universe but smaller?

[raw grail]

Everyone is an aspect of the universe, so yes

[mint osprey]

i forgot where did all small daedra came from? mazken, dremoras, xivilai all these dudes

[raw grail]

It varies and is unclear in most cases

[mint osprey]

i thought they were part of general creation like daedra princes but smaller

[raw grail]

Xivkyn and Daedric Titans are the primary examples we know the actual origins of

[mint osprey]

yes these are mutants

[raw grail]

I'd expect some probably were but I think trying to apply a general rule to infinitely many infinitely varying groups of entities is ehhhh yk?

Even looking at the finite number of finitely varying mortals doesn't allow you to apply one general rule

[mint osprey]

and where did daedra lords came from? can anyone become this or they always existed as daedra princes?

[zinc fable]

Is this the same for scamps and imps?

[raw grail]

Ultimately they are all born of the gods, but how exactly they reached their current state varies wildly from basically magical evolution to curses and ideological variation

[mint osprey]

scamps were probably created by dagon, but idk. imps are not daedra

[mint osprey]

so varies wildly from devs imagination

i ask this to find lore limits and understand why some people are upset about having Itelia

[raw grail]

There's multiple reasons

I think fundamentally the biggest reason is she was included and then removed in the same breath and without much ability to impact the rest of the setting meaningfully

It's unsatisfying

[mint osprey]

if we go to smaller scale, devs constantly add new small daerdras even though accoding to lore logic they all must be known because they serve daedra lords and princeses and can appear anywhere on tamriel. and people are okay with adding more of them. but people will be upset if there is a new daerda prince?

[mint osprey]

i see

[raw grail]

I think she's a good example of why even technically justifying a Daedric Prince's existence and irrelevance prior (or in this case, after) isn't the whole story

[mint osprey]

same as jyggalag though

[raw grail]

Some people were and are mad about Jyggalag, first of all

[mint osprey]

boring people

[raw grail]

Second of all, it is not the same: Jyggalag's ending explicitly gave him the room to become relevant now that he's been introduced

He isn't relevant yet, but SI ends with him leaving to rebuild, and Dyus teases his potential return

[mint osprey]

who are Si and Dyus?

[raw grail]

SI is Shivering Isles. Dyus is Jyggalag's librarian? I guess is the simplest way to put it

He's so much more, but that's the short of it

Oh

Also Jyggalag had been mentioned before

[woeful gyro]

Didn’t they decide not to elaborate on him very much just so they could keep him in reserve in case they wanted to use him in the future?

[zinc fable]

I kinda hope so. I'd be so down for Elder Scrolls 6 being about Sheogorath & Jyggalag

[woeful gyro]

I mean, I don’t think we really need an entire game about them

[zinc fable]

I wouldn't mind it. Skyrim's dragon story seemed kinda miniscule compared to Oblivion's. So a story about the mad god and god of order would be pretty dope.

[mint osprey]

but why in hammerfell

[zinc fable]

Sheogorath likes cats

lmao

[mint osprey]

in this case we should have Elder Scrolls VI: Oblivion II 😂 and have the whole game be settled in different oblivion realms

[zinc fable]

That'd actually be awesome. Just realms vs. realms that are bleeding into the mortal realm

[mint osprey]

not for the main game i think, but i'd play a spin off like this

[zinc fable]

Can Daedric gods fight each other?

[mint osprey]

they always do it

[zinc fable]

Like can Sheogorath fight Dagon if he wanted or they assign champions?

[mint osprey]

im not sure if they ever fought directly to each other but they ruin each others lives constantly

[zinc fable]

I think the only time it kinda happened was the end fight in Oblivion, but Martin turned more into an Avatar when fighting Dagon

Was Alduin a divine, daedra, just a strong dragon or something else?

[mint osprey]

In nordic panteon he is one of the gods, but he is pretty weak to be a god so idk

but he is definitely more than just a dragon, he has unique powers that others dont have

[mint osprey]

anyway, it seems there are no limits

[raw grail]

He's strong af, we're just the hammer to his nail - the tool for the job

[raw grail]

Usually they fight through champions or have less direct, physical conflicts. There are various myths recounting battles of theirs, but it's impossible to tell how much is metaphorical interpretation of myths and how much was literally them fighting. Some major examples of Princes in conflict would be the Bladesongs of Boethra, and the 16 Accords of Madness

[zinc fable]

But there's nothing that can actually stop them if they want to? Like in Marvel the Living Tribunal would step in and stop them if they tried fighting directly.

[raw grail]

Themselves

Look up the Pact Primordial

[raw grail]

There are no hard limits, no. The setting is somewhat deliberately very open

There is somewhat of a unified vision of what the world is, but they don't even have an internal lore bible or anything. You can kind of see a really early expression of this openness with the Council of Wisdom, I'd suggest

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Council_of_Wisdom

[woeful gyro]

Do you all think that there’s anything left of the HoK when we meet Sheogorath in Skyrim, or are they just gone by that point, with the mad god being all that remains?

[fading flame]

yes, they can. I highly doubt Jyggalag went down willingly. And no way Molag and Boethia ain't beefing in Oblivion

[zinc fable]

I wasn't sure if their's counted. Isn't Sheogorath & Jyggalag the same person?

[woeful gyro]

Two aspects of the same god, I think

[fading flame]

Technically... Yes, they do fight HoK faught Jyggalag, So technically Sheogorath and Jyggalag faught.

[zinc fable]

What's HoK?

[raw grail]

I mean I don't think it was necessarily HoK that mantled him, but whoever mantled him is now fragmentary

[woeful gyro]

Why don’t you think it was HoK?

[fading flame]

Yeah, the fact that he is treating minds instead of cursing them... Or maybe he doesn't get too angry at you like his bipolar counterpart.

[woeful gyro]

Hero of Kvatch

[raw grail]

That's not what I said. It could have been HoK, but it also could have been someone else

[zinc fable]

Oh, lol. Duh

[woeful gyro]

Ok well for the purposes of the question let’s assume that it was HoK?

[raw grail]

Nothing necessitates it being HoK, which means your HoK can do something else while someone else mantles Sheogorath. Either way, they remain as fragmentary

[fading flame]

Plus in every elder scrolls game EXCEPT skyrim, he has you do something that is random and kinda destructive. Except in Skyrim.

[raw grail]

I don't find the assumption affects the actual question you're getting at and so I don't think we should unnecessarily make the assumption

Chamberlain Haskill says, "I have had similar questions about my 'nature' from Alessandra, Legoless, and an Unnamed One, so I suppose I must address the matter. I am a Vestige, all that remains of a mortal from your world who 'mantled' Sheogorath during an event in a previous time. As a fragment, my memory of the event is … fragmentary. I am hazy on the entire concept of 'mantling,' but it had something to do with Lord Sheogorath, myself, and this Jyggalag of whom you speak. I have asked the Mad God to explain it to me, but he just laughs and says maybe he'll tell me about it 'next year,' whatever that means.

"Sometimes the Master irritates even me. I can't remember why I put up with it, actually."

[woeful gyro]

So Haskill was probably Sheo’s first attempt to get rid of Jyggalag but he couldn’t defeat him?

[raw grail]

Not first, but an earlier one yeah. It's not that he couldn't defeat him, it's that Sheo hadn't tried having someone mantle him in between yet, during the greymarch

Well, he couldn't defeat him, but it wasn't a skill issue, it was a methodology issue

The Greymarch is upon us, and the Ordering begins. Armies of Order sweep My Realm. Death. Destruction. Then I have to pick up the pieces. And there are always lots of pieces. I don't like it, having to rebuild My Realm every era. Sometimes I forget where things go. Like New Sheoth. I can never remember where it belongs.... You'll change that. Break the cycle. You'll stop Jyggalag, and I'll have My Realm to come back to. I've never actually tried that before.

[fading flame]

He changed, for the better. He decided to put all his sphere's aside. As his mania is kinda setting him off from doing it or hyper focusing on it. and kinda shows ADHD, does something at the last moment. He is the embodiement of mental illness.

[raw grail]

Imo Sheogorath didn't notably change from the mantling

[fading flame]

Luckily there was already a champion nearby whose defeated two gods.

[fading flame]

No, I mean before.

[woeful gyro]

In elder scrolls legends he does some pretty heinous stuff afaik, and that takes place after oblivion

[raw grail]

I don't know what or when you're referring to then

[fading flame]

The one you meet in Oblivion

[raw grail]

I mean I don't know what change you're talking about or when it would have occurred

[fading flame]

Well, he isn't causing mischief in the mortal world or on his subjects, he chose a powerful champion and wanted someone to become him

[fading flame]

I mean, if I could forget about something I lost that was important to me. I would... Of course naturally for any living being forgetting is very hard to do and you will try to figure out what you've forgot.

[raw grail]

He causes all sorts of mischief on his subjects in Oblivion

[fading flame]

When? In Oblivion he's having you learn what insanity is. He wants you to become a duke/duchess so that you can learn.

[slate shoal]

isn't that dlc just Sheogorath having you walk like him and understanding him to properly mantle him

I have no interest in Sheogorath so I'm never playing that dlc personally sorry

[woeful gyro]

Why say sorry? It’s your loss not ours lol

[slate shoal]

I don't know, I always feel the need to apologize especially to neurotypical people

people b guilty tripping you over the most minor things frfr

[fading flame]

Interesting... That hardly makes sense, well... Like Haskill said before time in oblivion is not linear I guess.

[mossy moss]

Yes! =D The protagonist of the Shivering Isles achieves apotheosis by walking like Sheogorath until becoming him.

[slate shoal]

the limitations of Nirn mostly apply to mortals, time isn't as "linear" for daedra and whatnot if I remember right

[fading flame]

He was the first one to do it too! Dyus even was like "Wow, you beat my calculations."

[woeful gyro]

In this game tho iirc he also gets hit with something called the memory wand, so maybe that could, in theory, allow some of the HoK’s memories or personality to resurface? 🤷‍♂️

[mossy moss]

I believe Dyus’ calculations failed because Prisoners are inherently incalculable.

[slate shoal]

Prisoners aren't bound by fate, even Sotha Sil is although "he can see the cage" if I remember right

[mossy moss]

Yeah, he can see the cage but not the door.

[raw grail]

A lot of the quests seem to involve messing with his subjects

[fading flame]

Which quests?

[woeful gyro]

This could explain why he’s “nicer” when we see him in Skyrim, if we take what we see during his quest in skyrim at face value (a pretty substantial if imo)

[slate shoal]

that or Sheogorath is just being Sheogorath and is inconsistent as is expected

[woeful gyro]

Yeah could go either way

Which is the point i guess. It’s meant to be ambiguous

[raw grail]

First of all, his shrine quest, since you also mentioned messing with mortals:
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Sheogorath
The introduction quest has:

It's not right! Madness! Why? Why? Everything is wrong! It can't be done! Stay away from me! I won't go back. I won't go back! You can't make me go back! I'll kill you all! You're all going to die!
- Belmyne Dreleth
A mortal he's driven insane
Look for yourself! Their brains are addled. Got no sense! Perfectly normal people went in there. And this is what's come out.
- Gaius Prentus
Unworthy, unworthy, unworthy! Useless mortal meat. Walking bag of dung! A nice effort, though. A shame he's dead. These things happen. Bring me a champion! Rend the flesh of my foes! A mortal champion to wade through the entrails of my enemies! Really, do come in. It's lovely in the Isles right now. Perfect time for a visit.
- Sheogorath
The very first quest he sends you on involves messing with mortals in the Shivering Isles despite being the one to invite them in:
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:Baiting_the_Trap
After "Understanding Madness" (which itself involves torturing mortals), he gives you the Summon Haskill spell and urges you to use it to mess with Haskill
The Ritual of Accession necessarily requires killing a Duke or Duchess to replace them, which he says they won't like (he was right)
Which isn't to mention the Hill of Suicides, the ghosts of Vitharn, or others that he's still actively messing with which we can independently put an end to

That took a long time cuz my attention was split and I was grabbing quotes while typing it. Sorry for the wait

[raw grail]

Most relevant dialogue on the shrine quest:

There's a little settlement called Border Watch. It's a nice, peaceful place... and dull, dull, dull. You're going to make their lives interesting. They're a superstitious bunch. Everything is an omen or a portent. Let's make one come true. Find their shaman and ask about the K'Sharra prophecy. You are to find a way to make the first two parts of the prophecy come true. I'll take care of the rest, because it's the most fun. Now, run along.

[fading flame]

The first quest was an adventurer not one of his subjects. Those are people from outside the Isles.

The Ritual of Ascension is not to necessarily mess with his subjects but to raise your position and power in the Isles.

Hill of Suicides is to punish those who take their own lives, I guess could be seen as evil.

Vitharn and their defenders deserve their fate as for using their faith, laziness and mental illness as an excuse for their defeat rather than accepting the fact that everything could of been solved if they planned accordingly and did things correctly.

[raw grail]

Ah, you meant "messing around with" in the sense of "meaninglessly"

[fading flame]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong that dude is the definition of a troll. He's Twitter before the internet.

[prime peak]

Is atmora like magically cold or just literally cold? Because why can’t you just drink a resist frost potion or have a flame cloak spell to survive there

[slate shoal]

short answer we don't know
longer answer

it could be magically cold from multiple possibilities or it's just naturally uninhabitably cold

it's suggested as a possibility that the Falmer did it as revenge for their homeland being genocided by invaders

[slate shoal]

autism time

"Welcome, Initiate. This is the Wayshrine of Sight. Are you prepared to honor the mantras of Auri-El and fill your vessel with His enlightenment?"

1. Initiate implies people willingly joined actively participating in their devotion to Auri-El.
2. Wayshrines are similar to Tibetan Stupas
3. the concept of sight is meant here as more of a buddhistic "sight" and less literal, although Bethesda probably also did this as a reference to the blinding of their race in an ironic manner
4. Mantras, of course are buddhistic
5. Vessel could imply an interesting view on souls and the body
6. enlightenment fits with the theme of buddhistic faith in Auri-El

"May Auri-El's light guide you in your darkest hours."

For this it simply seems that the Falmer would repeat simple blessings based on the mantras they learned

faith in their divine to protect them

the general buddhistic vibe the Falmer have does NOT fit a racially biased warrior anti-men theme some people try to claim

[slate shoal]

• Wayshrine of Learning
The value of learning, applied to a buddhistic view, could imply the Falmer valued the gaining of knowledge to be more one with faith and following the path of Auri-El

"Auri-El bless you, child. For you are a step closer to the Inner Sanctum and everlasting wisdom."
the concept of enlightenment and everlasting are repeated concepts, stuff seemingly valued

[prime peak]

Auriel is akatosh right

That’s the snow elves view

[woeful gyro]

Different names/faces for the same god

[slate shoal]

"Auri-El, Auriel, Alkosh, Akatosh, all different names for the sovereign of the Snow elves"

[balmy salmon]

Sir Brellin, one of the Knights of the Nine in TES IV, also subscribes to the belief of Auriel is Akatosh.

[brisk perch]

May or may not be the actual same being, but I think that Auriel was a mantling of Akatosh

[prime peak]

And akatosh is the creator of creation right

[versed garnet]

I love listening to lore videos of Elder scrolls while trying to sleep.. I dont have issues.. i promise

[ocean wraith]

I'm in the same boat dw dovahkin....dun dun du du (bad at typing sounds lol)

[fervent quail]

But we have buddhists now and also terrible warmongers and serial killers at the same time, I doubt the Falmer were a monolith of thought among their entire race. I'm sure many of Uriel's assassins were Imperials

[prime peak]

Is all wine in Skyrim imported from other provinces like cyrodill I haven’t seen any vineyards in Skyrim

[fervent quail]

From what I know, Jazbay grapes grow in the hotsprings area and throughout the reach, so Alto wine is probably made in Skyrim but they never made any wineries ingame to show that. From a google search, the Alto wine is a cheap version of the Ancient Skyrim Aalto wine that used to be reserved for high kings

[prime peak]

Mead and ale seems to be more popular in Skyrim so maybe wine is made in meaderies as a sub product or whatever

But I forgot about jazbays

[versed garnet]

yes.. while i sleep i want to know the horrible fate of what awaits you if you get soultrapped.. yes...

[prime peak]

You go to the soul Carin

[versed garnet]

yeah but its funny that while i was trying to sleep i got told it via a lore video

[slate shoal]

Auri-El in mer eyes is the reflection of the reflection of Anu if I remember right

[fading flame]

I think of course it maybe confusing to people, but it's also kinda like real life. Also not sure if everyone in the elder scrolls is speaking the same language tbh...
God, Allah, Dios, while being different languages mean the same thing. But in English you can use the first and second words interchangeably if you want.

[slate shoal]

truah! especially since some Falmer had a temple to Trinimac

aka Mr kill all white men guy

[fading flame]

Although Mora and Mara have to be related... There is no way they aren't

[slate shoal]

julianos and Mora actually

[fading flame]

Do you think Aedra hang out in Deadric planes? I mean daedra do go to atherius to hang out?

[prime peak]

If the db soul captured bandits and stuff when they go to the soul Carin wouldn’t the bandits be there and recognize them