elder-scrolls-lore

[mossy moss]

Probably because they know you never win against insanity. The deck is always stacked in his favor.

That doesn’t make him more powerful, but his unpredictable nature would make them think twice before associating or dealing with him.

I think it’d be more accurate to phrase it as “Sheogorath absorbs the Hero of Kvatch.” At the end of the day, Sheogorath is and always will be Sheogorath. The HoK may have mantled him, but he is not them, and they are not him. When Sheogorath emerges, the HoK is but a tiny drop in an infinite pool of water.

Effectively gone.

[tiny wyvern]

If a hammer fell in Hammerfell, did a dagger fall in Daggerfall?

[fading flame]

Ummm... idk what your skooma was spiked with but I am assuming that you're saying "He obtained his memories and personality. So in the end he is the same person." But sheogorath is so much nicer in Skyrim.

[mossy moss]

No, I am not saying that at all. The Hero of Kvatch is effectively gone because the soul of a mortal is infinitesimally smaller than that of a god. The Hero of Kvatch is, as I said, nothing more than a drop of water in the infinite ocean that is Sheogorath.

His depiction in Legends, which takes place after Oblivion, is incredibly cruel, so the last point is moot.

[proven moss]

We were never given an origin story for Daggerfall's name

So, maybe?

[tiny wyvern]

Well, they named Hammerfall after the Dwemmer hammer, so why not I say

[proven moss]

That's the spirit

[fading flame]

wdym the HoK fought himself, seemed like he killed his mortality. You know when they fought themselves in the pool. But to make sense of whatever happened or theories behind it is madness in itself.

[mossy moss]

When do you fight yourself?

[woeful gyro]

A pretty sad end if true

[fading flame]

When you gotta get the wood for the staff

[tiny wyvern]

As far as I know, the Hero of Kvatch is immortal because he is a God. He was last seen entering a gate to the Shivering Isles

[mossy moss]

A shadowy doppelganger that the Last Dragonborn also fights to acquire the same item. Would you argue that the LDB is now effectively immortal too?

[fading flame]

Dragonborn is not a normal person, but I don't know what you're talking about is that community content?

[mossy moss]

Bethesda-developed CC is canon.

You fight a doppelganger of yourself to acquire Shadowrend.

[fading flame]

GIve me a few minutes

[mossy moss]

Maybe, but it kind of makes sense with the narrative. What is the one thing tying all three main stories together?

[fading flame]

Is community content cannon? It seems like it was made by unoctium, verified mod author?

[mossy moss]

Madness. Akatosh is central to the main story and is often describe as being mad/insane. Pelinal Whitestrake, the previous Divine Crusader, was afflicted by madness.

[mossy moss]

All CC present with AE is canon, yes.

[fading flame]

Interesting, although that stone is not the same stone that is going out of it's way to suck something out of you. though not sure if it's the same shadowrend, probably can be multiple... who knows.

[woeful gyro]

Maybe you’re right. Even still, I like to believe that at least a little bit of the HoK remains in there, and that we see a little bit of them shining through in the quest in Skyrim

[lapis thorn]

Didn't the HoK mantled Sheogorath after the events of Oblivion's Shivering Isles DLC? Because I had assumed that over the course of 200 years between the events of the Oblivion Crisis to Skyrim, the HoK would transform into who we would know as Sheogorath. You know the whole "walk like them until they must walk like you" apotheosis?

[fading flame]

Yeah, he did. I see the HoK in Skyrim. I.e, HoK in any order of guilds. Dark brotherhood, he doesn't go out and randomly kill people, mages guild he knows a lot about necromancy, fighters guild... uhhh... learned nothing from that tbh, at least I didn't. Arena, combat skills where he learned probably to fight.

Mages guild and Dark brotherhood both fell when he vanished. Plus I feel like sheogorath is nicer in skyrim and willing to treat someone's madness instead of just sitting there watching it... Seems like heroic behavior to me.

[lapis thorn]

It would also explain to some part why Sheogorath of Skyrim, although holding most resemblances and even his voice, doesn't neccessarily look like the one we know in Oblivion in a world lore sense; his transformation is not 100% complete. Maybe 90 or 95% complete, but not quite there yet with one of the key notices being his eyes; what was once cat-like now being pure milky white.

[fading flame]

Imagine taking control of an entire daedric plane and all you had to do is defeat a deadric prince. He paid very little other than his mortality, perhaps his sanity? I don't know Sheogorath seems like a conscious manic person. But I always felt like he gained way more power than his predecessor.

[lapis thorn]

Indeed, from what I can dig up, this isn't the first time Sheogorath was mantled by someone else, one being someone by the name of Arden-Sul, and at one point or even an entirely different kalpa, he was mantled by none other than Haskill.

[fading flame]

I wonder how Haskill can keep his sanity and why sheogorath keeps him around... And how he survived all the previous grey marches...

[lapis thorn]

It might be a two side coin situation given Haskill was at one point a mantler, where Sheogorath is expressive and potentially extroverted, Haskill is the opposite to that. Sheogorath shows his emotions, where Haskil does not. It may also be a case where Haskill is already insane, but has gone so insane that it just looped around itself like going from 100 to 0 only to suddenly go back to 100 when it attempted to go to -1 and beyond as the program can't process negative numbers? He's broken but broken enough to be put back together to resemble a clairvoyance of sanity

[mossy moss]

You know he’s not actually treating it, right?

[mossy moss]

Haskill isn’t sane; his ability to stay calm and collected with everything happening around him is his insanity.

He survived the Greymarch because he’s a Vestige. His soul is Daedric, so he just revives with time if he is slain.

[mossy moss]

Princes can change their appearance whenever they want and can appear however they want. His eyes being ‘normal’ in Skyrim doesn’t mean anything.

[gritty bane]

Is that one card game Legends canon?

Because if so I'm gonna go crazy until I know why the lore writers made Sotha Sil's mechanical heart of lorkhan finish construction the SAME year Skyrim takes place

[sharp lantern]

The main campaign is, since it comes from an Elder Scroll.

The rest could be. If it came from the same scroll.

[woeful gyro]

Why do you think that

[mossy moss]

Because Pelagius is dead.

[woeful gyro]

Yes, but it could still be interpreted as bringing some measure of peace to a long dead ghost

[glacial scarab]

It would be impossible to tell with Sheogorath. Because the character is unpredictable which means we can never truly tell based on how their acts if they were the HoK. Nevermind Sheo suffers from "Insane man says random but accurate things that will happen or can't have known normally"

[mossy moss]

I think a more accurate interpretation would be inverting his madness, hence why Sheogorath says we treated his mind rather than fixed it. Instead of lacking confidence, he becomes overconfident. Instead of being paranoid, he has no fear. It fits the bill for Sheogorath much more, and it lines up with the actions we take in his mind.

Regardless, it doesn’t matter too much since Pelagius died as he lived: a paranoid, homicidal maniac who tried to avoid death by outlawing it. Too little too late, my friend. XD

[mossy moss]

I find it interesting that so many people take Sheogorath’s comments at face value when he says he’s in the mind of every mortal in the same breath.

He’s there for every affair, including the Dragonborn’s own.

[woeful gyro]

Maybe, but I also don’t think it’s a coincidence that Sheo’s quest in Skyrim has us helping (however you define the word) a Septim. Maybe he’s subconsciously acting on HoK’s loyalty to Martin/Uriel?

[mossy moss]

Or it’s because we’re in Skyrim where the most insane Septim to ever rule resided.

It’s just the perfect choice for Sheogorath’s quest.

[woeful gyro]

Ok so it seems like you’re pretty attached to the idea of HoK being gone and Sheo being the same old daedra he’s always been

[mossy moss]

Yeah, it’s the conclusion I and many of my associates have come to after pondering the question for almost two decades. When mortals mantle something infinite, the mortal is lost.

Particularly in situations where the mantling is willing. Two become one.

[woeful gyro]

Associates being r/teslore?

[mossy moss]

No, I don’t venture to that accursed land.

If the Hero of Kvatch is still around, they’d be a broken remnant like Haskill. In that case, it’s up to the player who and what they have become.

Haskill remembers people and whatnot but has no recollection of what they meant to him or memories formed with them.

(People from before mantling Sheogorath, I mean.)

So, for example, the Hero of Kvatch could remember Martin Septim but not what he meant to them or what they did for him.

[glacial scarab]

I mean the issue is we quite simply don't know if anything truly changed with Sheogorath.

It's probably why they chose Sheogorath tbh because it would be impossible to tell if the HoK changed Sheo at all. The most they did was move that parasite from Jygg to the player.

[candid smelt]

The HoK aint gone

He's a deadric prince

[mossy moss]

That is, effectively, gone.

That’s the best part about TES! Your protagonists may have the fate YOU want them to have! =D

[candid smelt]

My current Skyrim character is a standard warrior who grew up in Skyrim and Morrowind at the same time.

[mellow forge]

Does anyone know if any of the Gods besides Sithis have ever shown any interest in the Argonians?

[livid mulch]

Anyone else think it's super boring that Bethesda had the dunmer abandon daedra worship and switch to the nine divines like everyone else?
Always hated that. Them not worshipping the nine divines set them apart, and now they're just like everyone else and homogenized.

[mellow forge]

My understanding is that they still worship Azura

[livid mulch]

I still think Bethesda shouldn't have swapped them mostly to the nine divines.
The divines are boring empire created things that literally everyone does because the empire is literally everywhere.

[balmy salmon]

The Dunmer in Morrowind still worship the Daedra, specifically the Reclamations- Mephala, Boethiah, and Azura.

[mellow forge]

The Four Good Daedra

[livid mulch]

In Skyrim Dragonborn dlc they have shrines to the nine divines and that one guy says they don't worship daedra anymore, and in fact think it's disgusting they ever did iirc.

[balmy salmon]

Those outside of Morrowind who worship the Nine are typically those who have assimilated into the local cultures.

[livid mulch]

I'm just not a big fan of the divines being the thing everyone worships in every game that's not Morrowind. I'd like more variety but all you get are the divines and people like Heimskr talking about how amazing they are when they really don't do anything at all. At least the daedra do things in the pyhsical world, the nine divines literally do not care

[balmy salmon]

Wait, what? The Dunmer in Raven Rock still worship the Reclamations. There's a traditional Dunmer temple in Raven Rock which has shrines to the Reclamations, and discuss their faith's transition from the Tribunal.

[proven moss]

Where?? I don't remember this at all

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Temple

[livid mulch]

oh i'm thinking of the tribunal, got them twisted

[mellow forge]

Tribunal lost most of their worshippers when they lost their power.

That sounds like a really redundant statement, I apologize but that's what happened

[royal island]

Before you get into funny ideas. There’s a good reason why the Empire will be a canonical winner over the Stormcloaks by default, because this could happen to settle Skyrim reinstated back into the Empire that the war between the Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire will happen later, plus a possible ban Talos Worship to be lifted, that the two new factions, the Daggerfall Covenant and Ebonheart Pact will join the fight. Thus you got the Elder Scrolls Online after Skyrim.

Sorry, it ain’t happen. Because there’s a possibility that the Daggerfall Covenant will win the war in ESO by default.

[mellow forge]

Did the miss the part where they are trying to kill all non-Elves?

Like the victory condition for the Thalmor is that the entire world is destroyed lmao

[royal island]

There’s a possibility that the Thalmor will be disbanded. Leading to the collapse of the Aldmeri Dominion and Ebonheart Pact and this could be that the Elder Scrolls VI will be taking place in Hammerfell for the celebration of the Daggerfall Covenant’s victory.

Part 2: There’s a good reason that Umbra, the sword, will curse the Hero of Kvatch to become the Umbra themselves to make them go crazy and become the fallen hero of Cyrodill, if you decide to keep Umbra for yourself and not get the Masque of Clavicus Vile in the daedric quest, Clavicus Vile, from Oblivion.

So giving Clavicus Vile the Umbra will be the best outcome, because Umbra only effects mortal ones like the Hero of Kvatch and not immortal ones like Clavicus Vile.

[fervent quail]

The issue with the LDB is that they're able to roam freely after the fact, and there's specific dialogue showing (if you so choose) that the LDB can return to tamriel freely and interact with Hermaeus Mora after the DLC ||in the dwemer cube questline||

[mellow forge]

The LDB is gonna need the greatest lawyer in all the realms when they die, cause like... 6 different God's want that soul.

Heresine (if you are a werewolf)
Nocturne (if you did Thieves Guild)
Sithis (if you did Dark Brotherhood)
Hermaeus Mora (unavoidable)
Akatosh (hes your dad?)
Maybe Shor, given that the Norse Dead seem to consider LDB an honorary Nord.

Let me know if I missed anyone.

[fervent quail]

I don't have the best evidence for it, but I feel like the DB questline is going to be canon by the next game, even if it's just noted as coincidentally the same time ||Titus Mede|| died

[mellow forge]

My bet is that the LDB gathered up all the Dragons, went to Summerset, killed the dudes trying to destroy the world, and then vanished, as all Elder Scrolls protagonists do once their work is finished.

Dragons are weird because they technically aren't naturally occurring creatures. They are, in an abstract sort of way, angels. If they die but aren't killed by DB, they just kinda go to sleep until someone (Alduin) brings them back to life.

But they can be raised from the dead, is my point. Their soul still exists and can be rebound to its mortal form.

Dragons cant. You need a special Shout to do it. Which only Alduin can do, given his role as the Eater of World's.

Alduin does not die at the end of Skyrim, hes just throw back into Akatoshs realm for being a naughty boy. But he will come back and he will raise more dragons from the dead to help him fulfill his duty

Their Afterlife is being at Akatoshs side, I imagine. As I said, they are basically Angels.

Akatosh is only following the rules as they were set. The world has to end eventually. Akatosh cant stop that from happening, but he can give Mortals a chance to survive by putting a Dragonborn in play. Which is exactly what he did in Skyrim.

[fervent quail]

It's interesting, because eventually only exists because of Akatosh itself

[mellow forge]

See this guy gets it

How well do you know the Bible, Bork?

Not looking for a religious debate I'm curious about your theological background

Alduin wanted to enslave all of mortal kind and rule the worldm

Did

Did you not play Skyrim.

It is stated repeatedly
Alduin wanted to bind all mortals to his Will and rule the world, and anyone who opposed him would be killed.

You exist to serve your dragon overlords and nothing else.

[fervent quail]

Armageddon for the sake of creating a new heaven/New kalpa so everything is reborn and shuffled into different positions of power? I'd probably tweak that to a cycle of reincarnation, unless that wasn't your point

[mellow forge]

You give them everything they demand or you are burned to death.

The Empire doesn't burn you to death for failing to show up to work

Do you prefer being burned to death

Or eaten. Or both.

[fervent quail]

It seems like in Atmora, the dragon cult was pretty chill, it was just upon landing on Tamriel did the dragon priests go crazy with power and then the dragons started mauling people

which seems kind of backwards given the power dynamics

[mellow forge]

I have some bad news for you about every major religion in the world dude

[signal raptor]

Let's keep this to Elder Scrolls and not bring real-world into it, please

[mellow forge]

Parthanax even tells you that Alduin is just a part of nature. He isn't something that can be stopped, just delayed.

Eventually, the world will end. When that happens is up to the Dragonborn that Akatosh let's loose to stop Alduin.

[fervent quail]

His existence defines time, so either the kalpa cycle restarts or My Theory magic fades from the world and bad stuff starts happening to the mortals. Look at the daedric invasions getting harder and harder to deal with, the world itself falling apart like the red mountain, tyrants rising with the power of gods time and time again which often requires akatosh to get involved with

[mellow forge]

Akatosh is the God of Time. Alduin is his aspect as the End of Time

A big thing with God's in Elder Scrolls is that they wear many masks and have many titles.

Shor and Lorkhan are the same thing, but from different perspectives.

This is the part where I say THE HIIIIST

[fervent quail]

If we take the appearance of Alduin into the world, or at least the appearance of the first dragonborn made to kill dragons, we can guess the cycle was supposed to be reset before the first era even began which is when a lot of the bad stuff started really happening requiring divine intervention - basically taping the leaks while the plumber is stuck in traffic

[mellow forge]

No. Everything has to end. Thats kinda the whole point of the Elder Scrolls setting. Change happens. For better or worse.

Sure. Dunno what that means but sure.

[fervent quail]

A game series where I think a dragon is forced to destroy the world every couple hundred years or something

[mellow forge]

Then you are in the wrong setting.

[fervent quail]

there's not really any point discussing things within the framework of a story if you just don't like the story and want it to be different

[mellow forge]

I dont know what it is you want to hear

[signal raptor]

Let's keep it civil

[mellow forge]

I'm going to change topics now because this is going no where

The Hist: what are they planning?

[fervent quail]

These are the rules of the world this story inhabits, we don't know why but all the ingame and outgame evidence points to it being somewhat necessary, so it's kind of a given people would try and work that in to theories rather than just discard it. Whether it turns out to be good or bad is an interesting discussion though

I personally think the evolution of the games signify a sapping of magic from the world, a sort of degradation if you will

sure, mystical things keep happening, and the daedra are mostly unaffected

but the myth of the world seems to be waning in a sense, things becoming more mundane and entropic

[mellow forge]

I think we should just blame Sithis.

[fervent quail]

I'm sorry we disagreed with you on it being a bad plot device, no need to be so dramatic about it

[mellow forge]

I'm walking away from this conversation now.

[fervent quail]

Care to elaborate? Some things do seem that way from what I can think of, like the usage of lorkhans heart, but other things like weaker magical feats, less shouting etc. as time goes on tell a different story in my eyes

Aside from Jagar Tharn, a lot of it seems like old beings/constructs coming back from far in the past to wreak chaos with their last gasp so to speak

[mellow forge]

I think the Tamerial is a place that's take a beating over the years from the many wars and crisis'.

And doesn't have a way to really fix the damages

[fervent quail]

The towers are a sort of shield against that sort of thing, metaphorically and metaphysically, but maybe that's what the cycles are for? The Shield gets too cracked and needs to be replaced

[mellow forge]

Perhaps. I think this just goes back to the whole "Akatosh decides when the world ends" discussion. Hes looking down in Nirn and seeing that the Towers are not in the best of shape. Probably looking at his watch every now and again thinking "is it time?"

[fervent quail]

I suppose all of those can be seen from either perspective, that it's accelerating or it's decelerating with big hotspots. I mean, there's the Eye of Magnus being uncovered for the first time in 4000 or so years, the ascension of Talos, the various dragonbreaks after the start of the first era that all point to that theory being more the case

Maybe it's just ingame perspective, especially in Skyrim with a slightly more grounded, classical medieval society than one filled with magicians like you might see elsewhere

[glacial scarab]

Honestly. It's hard to tell anything for progression, regression or the general state of it. Magic is limited by what the game can do.

[slate shoal]

it's more that the flashier stuff wouldn't work on weaker systems , that and Nords are phobic to anything not white and masculine warrior honor stuff hence the lack in Skyrim (from a non irl view)

[sharp lantern]

But ESO is in the Second Era?

[sharp lantern]

They only seek to recreate the Merethic Era.

[mint osprey]

I believe Dagon was way more dangerous than Alduin

And Dagoth is about the same level, its not just a new demigods, with working Numidium he could screw the whole reality

[glacial scarab]

I mean they're both godly figures that want to destroy the world. Just Dagon is apart of the "Job Squad" where he's there to put heroes over since he can never win to complete his fantasy destruction of Nirn and everyone on it.

[craggy hull]

When Akatosh slew Lorkhan,
He ripped his heart right out,
He hurled it across Tamriel,
And the heart was heard to shout:
Red Diamond! Red Diamond!
The heart and soul of Men.
Red Diamond! Red Diamond!
Protect us till the end.
The laughing heart sprayed blood afar,
A gout on Cyrod fell,
And like a dart shot to its mark
Down in an Ayleid Well.
Magicka fused the Lorkhan blood
To crystal red and strong
Then Wild Elves cut and polished it down
To Chim-el Adabal.
Red Diamond! Red Diamond!
The heart and soul of Men.
Red Diamond! Red Diamond!
Protect us till the end.
When Elves lost Nirn to Man,
Akatosh gave the stone
To Saint Alesh in token of
Her right to sit the throne.
Red Diamond! Red Diamond!
The heart and soul of Men.
Red Diamond! Red Diamond!
Protect us till the end.

this song is cool asf in eso

[mint osprey]

there is a theory that Alduin would not destroy the world but just wanted to rule it like in old days

[shell basin]

Are we sure that it was really the Dominion hiding the moons and not, say, high-atmosphere volcanic ash from Red Mountain post-Baar-Dau with the AD claiming credit?

[fervent quail]

Alduin likely wouldn't destroy the world, as Akatosh wouldn't stop it and wouldn't have need for the last dragonborn. We have to remember that from his point of view, he pops out of the rift in time at the height of his power fighting a rebellion that would have lost had they not used an Elder Scroll, so knowing that he would likely just get back to it again. He wouldn't need to resurrect dragons for eating the world, he's plenty capable of that himself

[shell basin]

A question is already raised in ESO DLC "Dragonhold"... where the moons are manipulated to make a false eclipse. If a Mane is born under an eclipse (as with the twins of Reapers March), what is the fate of Khajiit born under a falsely induced eclipse?

The question is in fact left unanswered by the game.

(My own headcanon answer to that, assuming an "order of release" timeline which means the base-game plot of Reapers March has already been completed, is this: that the role of "Dark Mane" has just become vacant, hint hint...)

[slate shoal]

tbh the Altmer and Thalmor DO eugenics, so it's not unlikely for them to experiment with people they consider lesser

[mellow forge]

My understanding is that is exactly what he wanted to do and that's why Akatosh sent a Dragonborn to kill him.

[royal island]

No.

Now, when it comes to Elder Scrolls VI when it’s imported from Skyrim, not only the Empire won over the Stormcloaks by default, but Paarthurnax was still alive after Alduin’s defeat in Skyrim’s final quest, and the Dark Brotherhood is destroyed by default.

[rough temple]

Which Elder Scrolls culture would you guys say is most similar to Spanish? I’m trying to make a “Spanish fencer” type character. I hope it’s Nibenian Imperial bc that’s what I chose for my guy

[mellow forge]

That's probably the closest you'll get tbh

[rough temple]

I read up on some lore and saw this pic—the helmet looks Spanish to me. Now I’m leaning towards Colovian… I wonder how feasible a respec mechanic would be to implement in a future update

I mean, it looks like a gladiator helmet mixed with a conquistador helmet so idk

[mellow forge]

I don't think there is a helmet like that in game

Are Argonians cold blooded?

[rough temple]

I know, the pic is from Pocket Guide to the Empire which is at least halfway canon afaik. Anyway I think Nibenese are a fine analogue for the Spanish, thanks for the info .

[mellow forge]

yeah man no problem

I'm working on my Argonian character

and studying Argonians. So I cna really get into that head space of being a weird Lizard man thing.

[gaunt bear]

I think that depends on the definition:

—Cold-blooded means that the creature gets its heat from outside its body.

—Warm-blooded means that the creature gets its heat from inside its body.

And I’m no biologist, so I can’t really say whether either label applies to Argonians.

[rough temple]

They should make Argonians get some kind of buff in the sunlight and debuff in the cold, canonize their cold bloodedness with gameplay

And just say Argonians from previous games are warm blooded, yeah idk

[rough temple]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Argonian#Appearance_and_Physiology apparently, argonians are cold blooded but can survive in cold climates because of magic Hist sap that they ingest throughout their lives

Also, I love playing as “man things”, too. I have an Argonian Yautja in Morrowind that mostly hangs out in the sewers and the wilderness

[mellow forge]

I'm crafting a backstory for my Oblivion character.

So far, he hatched in Stormhold along three other Argonian kids. Grew up a fairly normal childhood. The day of his naming ceremony, Dunmer Slavers raided the city. His family was among the taken. He still retains a faint connection to the Hist.

[sharp lantern]

How do you mean "no"? It is lol.

[glacial scarab]

ESO is Second Era.

It's after the Kamal invasion but before the Kamal dynasty in Cyrodiil

[mint osprey]

how do you know this

[latent goblet]

My mans is just importing his head cannon

[fading flame]

Which kinda sucks sometimes the lore of ESO doesn't really work... there are now 18 now known daedric princes.

[tender ruin]

How exactly are there 18 known princes, considering the 18th you're likely referring to was removed from memory?

As far as I remember, all we are told from the earliest games is that there are 17 known Daedric Princes, and it's written from a mortal's perspective
Nothing in that text even indicates Jyggalag is the 17th known Prince

[fading flame]

Have you read the book "On Oblivion" introduced in daggerfall, a "back up." prince

It mentions him, also the one removed by memory... come on :p that was a not a good plot. though I can't imagine writing stories is easy.

[woeful gyro]

My question is how do Jyggalag and Peryite’s spheres not overlap with eachother? They both represent order

[tender ruin]

The Daedra princes whose names appear over and over in ancient records (though this is not an infallible test of their authenticity or explicit existence, to be sure)

Like I said, he's not really known, and the only reason they even have his name is due to ancient records

[glacial scarab]

TBF we barely even get all the gods of TES.
Like how "Shezarr" doesn't exist or how much of a Fraud Reman is. Princes I can see being able to ignore the Daedric playground that is Nirn.

[mint osprey]

I like that they added a new daedra, why not? I only dislike her aspect - she is princes of multiverse or whatever. Like what? Dudes dont know marvel is not popular anymore

[glacial scarab]

Pretty sure the idea of that already existed since Shadowkey

[fading flame]

Still there people who do know. There are people in the shivering isles who know about him... Ciirta, dark seduces and golden saints. Let alone a book was written and had his name. Though the scholar knew he was a daedric prince. I would be suprised if Falion from skyrim even knows about him.

they also recognized that the other daedric princes also cannot be "authentic."

[tender ruin]

The Shivering Isles, as in his realm of Oblivion

[fading flame]

Sheogorath's yea,

also can we appreciate how much of a troll Sheogorath is. He dug a hole, then proceeded to fill it up with clowns. Jyggalag was not Jyggy with it.

Also another question, when Sheogorath wakes up after being Jyggalag. Is it like a night of uhhh... Drinking best way to describe it? Like black out and wake up with a hang over?

[mossy moss]

I think the more likely outcome is they split Skyrim in two again, with Western Skyrim being loyal to the Empire and Eastern Skyrim being independent.

[fading flame]

I'm not sure how the HoK came to became so powerful... But a strong theory is the stars really really REALLY loves this man. i.e "The Firmament" stars. Although Dyus hating man malding in his chair douted him. Yet, he defeated dagon, and Umaril and saves Kvatch finds, the amulet of kings etc.

[sharp lantern]

I doubt it, the Stormcloaks are already struggling against Imperial militia and Ulfric is fearful of a Cyrodilic invasion - hence his refusal to attack Solitude if either Vittoria is getting married or Mede visits.

But through the letter we plant on Gaius Maro, the Stormcloaks will still be held responsible for the death of Mede. And there is also the Stormcloak missive in Fort Neugrad which states a new Imperial force is assembling south of Pale Pass.

Even if the Stormcloaks were to win the initial conflict, there is an out to have an Imperial victory.

[mint osprey]

agree, they will probably make all options possible. no one wins in civil war and skyrim splits there is even a quest about it if you kill alduin before winning the war. DB kills the emperor and then oculatus destroys them. dawnguard kills the vampires but then other random vapires kill dawnguard

[sharp lantern]

Season Unending is only a temporary truce until Alduin is dealt with.

[mossy moss]

I don’t expect them to make a definitive choice and splitting the province is the closest they can get to not forcing a side.

[tender ruin]

Eh, I fail to see how that'd work given the need to reunify Skyrim pushed in the game's narrative
Not to mention Tullius mentions it's only a matter of time till the Thalmor wage war again in the Imperial ending

[mint osprey]

anyway i doubt bethesda will make any of choice canonic cause it will upset some people

[fading flame]

Skyrim has always been at war to be fair, rumors have it that there is war with house redoran and nords of Skyrim.

[mint osprey]

so there will be win win or lose lose

[fading flame]

Well Skyrim only has really four options when it comes to choosing things.

Imperial or Stormcloak
Harkon's Court or Dawnguard.

[sharp lantern]

People are already going to be upset when their ''Dragonborn single-handedly destroyed the Dominion'' fanfics get invalidated lol.

[mossy moss]

There’s a lot fewer of those people than Civil War loyalists.

[tender ruin]

Way more Ulfric did nothing wrong people than solo Dominion fans

[fading flame]

I mean the greybeards have always protected high hrothgar... A giant temple being protected by four people. three who by the way when they talk they shake the whole building.

Also how do they decide who becomes a greybeard? I think they should leave baby carriages on the doorstep.

[mint osprey]

i just realised that there is almost nothing said about greybeard in skyrim. seems like a lore hole, not a big one tho

speaking about holes. can anyone explain to me how do dwemers of skyrim enslaved falmers before Rourken Clan left vvardenfell ?

the only explanation to this is dwemers came to skyrim before morrowind and hamerfell, but i think it this contradicts some lore sources

im not good at lore and heard this on youtube so want to know if its a real plot hole or not

[sharp lantern]

Neither side of the civil war fanbase is going to be happy with no outcome.

[mint osprey]

most people probably played as both sides and there won't be so many who would care about canonic solution

[glacial scarab]

If they do anything I feel they'll say that Legions were sent in after the "Stormcloaks" assassinated Mede or at least had a hand in it.

As the Dark Brotherhood does seem to set up a way to just ignore how it went ingame.

I also do not see them going for a Stormcloak victory because of the player name those Stormcloak "ranks" are.

[raw grail]

Unlike the civil war decision, that isn't actually in the game, so they're just kind of getting mad over false expectations at that point

Who won Skyrim's Civil War? Empire or Stormcloaks? (2018-02-09)
As with other Elder Scrolls games (like the multiple endings to Daggerfall) the studio doesn't really force one outcome as canon. That'd sort of diminish each player's choice.
- Pete Hines

I have a question about some stuff in the book though. The description of Strengths mentions how Ulfric overcame the Empire and saved Skyrim from foreign rule. Is that talking about the end of the Civil War, confirming that Stormcloaks win? Or just his story up to the start TES5?
Just as there are many possible futures in tarot, there are many possible story choices in Skyrim! As a tarot card, that passage simply represents the "upright" fortune that is possible for Ulfric. The civil war is still canonically a player choice within Skyrim.
- Tori Schafer

[raw grail]

This expectation seems to align with the expectations BGS is trying to set

(and most previous handling of similar scenarios, with a few somewhat obscure exceptions, most infamously Neloth)

This also seems to align

[raw grail]

Arngeir could do that too, he's just grown strong enough he can choose not to anymore

[sharp lantern]

Right, I guess Skyrim will be in civil war until the end of time. /s

Of course they aren't going to spoil who wins the war before TES VI releases.

[raw grail]

I don't know how they said "we're not forcing one outcome as canon" and you got "they're trying not to spoil it"

[sharp lantern]

It's common sense.

Again, unless you wish to argue Skyrim remains in civil war until the end of time.

[raw grail]

No, just that whatever solution they go with won't give an answer to what happened within the scope of the game because, as they explicitly said, "the studio doesn't really force one outcome as canon"

This forced dichotomy of "either they choose which side won or they keep the civil war going forever" does not hold up to scrutiny or reading comprehension

[sharp lantern]

This is the first time when something major occurs on a province-level without a magic macguffin like Daggerfall had.

There is no way to get to TES VI and have the civil war unresolved unless they literally never say anything about Skyrim's status ever again.

[raw grail]

They don't have to "never say anything about Skyrim's status," they just have to say something about Skyrim's status that doesn't confirm which outcome the player got

[sharp lantern]

Which is rather pointless and unsatisfying for either side of the player base.

[raw grail]

Resolve the conflict in a way that makes sense for either player choice. As they said, twice

[glacial scarab]

I'd imagine they just would overwrite the ending. Maybe one side won but we won't know because more Legions got sent in or Paarthurnax killed everyone as he finally heel turns with Alduin out of the way.

[raw grail]

That's fine, you can have that opinion. Whether it's satisfying has little to no bearing on what they've said they're going to do

I'm not basing this on my perception of the community's reaction, I'm basing this on what they said they're going to do

[sharp lantern]

Which they said before the release of TES VI.

[raw grail]

Yes

[sharp lantern]

So of course they aren't going to be making any definitive statements yet.

[raw grail]

They made a definitive statement. I just provided 2

The outcome of the civil war questline is up to the player

[sharp lantern]

''It is up to the player'' is not a definitive statement.

[raw grail]

Forcing a resolution to the questline is different from having a resolution to the war itself

The war was going before and after the questline

(albeit in smaller scale after, so far)

I'm sure they will resolve the war. I also expect they'll do exactly as they said they would and find a resolution which doesn't invalidate either choice

[sharp lantern]

Because there is no point in having a lore discussion about the war when there is already an answer. Why on earth would they spoil the outcome of the war before the next game even comes out?

[raw grail]

I give up

[mossy moss]

How can they spoil the outcome of a war that ends in a game?

[raw grail]

Well, honestly it doesn't even really end in the game

It's just diminished because one side lost their general. The fighting is still ongoing

[mossy moss]

I guess that’s kind of true. It’s hard to call it a fight when the winner has control of every hold though. It’d force either of them into the woods to fight like guerrillas.

[raw grail]

I do still agree there's nothing to spoil in regards to the questline

Just the questline is shorter than the war itself

[sharp lantern]

Simple; because its outcome in the game is still up to the player.

It's the same way how ''Kill the Telvanni Councilors'' is made irrelevant when it comes to the lore, by Neloth's survival in Dragonborn.

[raw grail]

They could just choose to invalidate the choice here, that's entirely possible. As you mention, they've done it before

[sharp lantern]

For most other quests, there are no real lore implications - they are too small in scale to be relevant.

[mossy moss]

It’s not made irrelevant. All of them except Neloth can still die. He is a very rare exception to a non-essential quest.

[raw grail]

That doesn't seem to be the expectation they're setting right now

[sharp lantern]

So it is made irrelevant. It becomes canon this quest was not completed, for Neloth is alive when he very much dies as part of that quest.

[mossy moss]

I disagree because I think that perspective lacks creativity.

[sharp lantern]

Okay, how does it stay relevant when we know for a fact it wasn't completed?

[mossy moss]

We don’t know “for a fact” it wasn’t completed. Like I said, your perspective lacks any imagination. TES is a world of magic and mysteries. You can very easily come up with your own explanation as to how Neloth survived.

[sharp lantern]

You cannot survive being killed.

[mossy moss]

You act like no one in TES has successfully faked their death before.

[sharp lantern]

A murder is not the same thing as faking your own death.

[mossy moss]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

You are free to believe and feel how you do.

[sharp lantern]

If you don't care about consistency, you can just say that.

[mossy moss]

Do not make assumptions about how I feel, thank you.

[sharp lantern]

I mean, it isn't an assumption. You're quite literally saying that the events of Dragonborn contradicting a quest in Morrowind is totally fine and not at all evidence of said quest not being completed.

[mossy moss]

That is not what I’m saying. At all.

[raw grail]

That isn't at all what I read

[sharp lantern]

Quest: Neloth dies.
Dragonborn: Neloth lives.

Pretty straight forward.

[raw grail]

Well, quest: We experience killing Neloth
To be more specific. What I interpreted Ash as saying was "there's more solutions to this than the binary of 'quest wasn't completed' and 'these two irreconcilably contradict each other'"

For example, it's theoretically possible we fully believe we killed Neloth but it was a double. That is a justification for him still being alive, blatantly, but we've seen others have identical doubles, and is a resolution outside of the binary you're presenting

[fading flame]

They’ll probably do another dragon break. 💀💀

[raw grail]

It's possible but iirc they got yelled at by fans for suggesting they'd do that for all future games and backed out of it

That would be an example where they don't force a canon outcome to the quest tho

[sharp lantern]

And there is nothing to support that notion.

Using that same logic, you can also say that ''Clearly Lucien Lachance wasn't killed by the Black Hand, and the spirit we summon in Skyrim is just another member of the Brotherhood who happens to have had the same name.''

[mossy moss]

No, that logic is not the same.

[sharp lantern]

Yeah, it is.

You cannot prove that the Lucien Lachance we summon in Skyrim is the same Lucien Lachance we meet in Oblivion any more than you can claim that the Neloth we see in Dragonborn is not the same Neloth we see in Morrowind.

[mossy moss]

Dark moons…

You’re taking too much of everything at face value. He gave an example to the point he was trying to make. Arguing against the example instead of the point is a logical fallacy, by the way.

[raw grail]

Good strawman

[sharp lantern]

I'll repeat it: If you don't care about consistency, you can just say that.

[mossy moss]

At this point, you can believe neither of us care about consistency if you want to. Have a good day.

[raw grail]

I don't know where you're getting that impression, but if that's what you want to believe, that's fine ig

I know what I care about and that's good enough

[sharp lantern]

It ain't a belief when it's clearly a fact. Dismissing the events of quests because they don't suit your narrative, then refusing to do so in another case is being inconsistent. 🤷‍♂️

[raw grail]

If this isn't intentional it's one hell of a misunderstanding

You're comparing an example of a reconciliation between information that's contradictory at face value, with arbitrarily deciding two exactly named characters with the same positions are different characters for no provided reason

I don't know how to take you seriously if you're going to respond that way to a disagreement

I've been trying very hard to engage in good faith and assume you're doing the same, and somehow you've continually misconstrued what I'm saying, and now you're going even further and doubling down on it instead of going "oh, hey, maybe I could have been wrong and misunderstood what you were saying." It's not very inspiring

[sharp lantern]

Because saying ''Hey, this contradicts quest (x), so I guess it's fair to say said quest didn't happen'' seems to be totally impossible in your view.

For what possible reason? Are you trying to argue every single quest in a game is completed?

[raw grail]

I never said it was impossible, I said it wasn't as strict of a binary as you're saying

[sharp lantern]

You're sure acting that way, otherwise you wouldn't only be making statements about how Neloth ''survived being killed''.

I do not even see you entertain the possibility that a quest wasn't completed.

[raw grail]

I think not completing the quest is the easiest default but I also think there's ways for players to work around it to maintain their choice without breaking anything, because we know of magic and even basic irl techniques and the like which has allowed people towns escape assassination

[raw grail]

Because I'm not pushing against that as one way it could turn out, I'm pushing back against that being a certainty which cannot be worked around, the false binary that either a) the games contradict or b) the quest wasn't completed, with a third option, c) the games appear to contradict but the contradiction can be creatively reconciled. Any of the 3 options are okay. Do what works for your characters

[raw grail]

I stated that explicitly here

[woeful gyro]

What was the elder scroll that the HoK and Gray Fox stole from the white-gold tower? In Skyrim it seemed that the elder scrolls we found was each devoted to something more specific. The Dragon scroll, the blood scroll, and the sun scroll. So what did Gray Fox have us steal? The Curse scroll?

[raw grail]

I'm not sure we have a name for it

[mossy moss]

In all fairness, the Elder Scroll (Dragon) was not called that until Dawnguard added two more Elder Scrolls to the game. I would wager they’re not explicitly about a specific topic but rather read as they need to.

[raw grail]

I concur

[mellow forge]

Elder Scrolls tell a specific story of the future/past/present, dont they?

[mint osprey]

Elder scroll can do anything

basically it just does what quest designer wants

[raw grail]

Septimus Signus uses a transcription of the so-called "Dragon Scroll" for something that is distinctly not draconic

What do I do with this cube?
"To glimpse the world inside an Elder Scroll can damage the eyes. Or the mind, as it has to Septimus. The Dwemer found a loophole, as they always do. To focus the knowledge away and inside without harm. Place the lexicon into their contraption and focus the knowings into it. When it brims with glow, bring it back and Septimus can read once more."

What do you want with the Elder Scroll?
"Ooooh, an observant one. How clever to ask of Septimus. This Dwemer lockbox. Look upon it and wonder. Inside is the heart. The heart of a god! The heart of you. And me. But it was hidden away. Not by the Dwarves, you see. They were already gone. Someone else. Unseen. Unknown. Found the heart, and with a flair for the ironical, used Dwarven trickery to lock it away. The scroll will give the deep vision needed to open it. For not even the strongest machinations of the Dwemer can hold off the all-sight given by an Elder Scroll."

I figure the Dwemer also saw something different, but that's speculative

[mellow forge]

Maybe the real Elder Scrolls were the friends we made along the way.

[proven moss]

Traditionally, the Elder Scrolls record two things: the past, completely and without error; and all possible futures.

This is why, in Oblivion, the Gray Fox is able to break the curse on Nocturnal's cowl. He's able to recover all the names and identities that the cowl erased; contradicting it and shattering it's power.

Nocturnal, with her power, could erase every memory of them. But the Scrolls record all

And this is where I usually complain about how Skyrim turned them into magical deus ex machina mccguffins.

But, you know, ignoring that: the scrolls' power is in the knowledge contained within.

That's why people devote their lives to learning to read them, in the end sacrificing even their eyesight to gain a flash of insight into the miserable little pile of secrets that is the Mundus

[tender ruin]

I fail to see how they were turned into magical deus ex machinas given they're only ever used to obtain knowledge in the base game plus the Dawnguard DLC

[proven moss]

You do use it to gain knowledge of the Dragonrend (the game makes it cinematic - fine by me). But the Nordic heroes use it to throw Alduin into the future a thousand years, creating a time-wound in the process.
I don't think it's ever explained how that was accomplished. Maybe he's doing a thing where he's reading a possible future where Alduin is defeated, and is following a sort of road map that way. Still doesn't explain how he got the power to throw dragons through time.

[fading flame]

Ok I am very confused, why do things that die call other things mortal? I.e vampires, liches, dragons etc, reading the book on Akavir says tseci are immortal snake people that consume dragons, while we are unable to determine if this is literal of physical. If the tseci consume dragons bones included and gets turned to waste then can the dragon be brought back? And I’m pretty sure one of them dies and was an emperor at some point. Is mortal being mistranslated a lot in these types of games?

[tender ruin]

Immortal just means you can theoretically live forever, whereas most races cannot

[proven moss]

Simply put, there are different types of immortality.

[tender ruin]

Nothing in the Elder Scrolls is truly immortal, except maybe Anu and Padomay, as everything can die
But even then, idk if you could even call those two alive to begin with, and the only evidence for their existence is a creation myth

[mint osprey]

i will repeat my dwemer question

how do dwemers of skyrim enslaved falmers before Rourken Clan left vvardenfell ? the only explanation to this is dwemers came to skyrim before morrowind and hamerfell, but i think it this contradicts some lore sources

[sharp lantern]

Do we even know when the Rourken came to Hammerfell?

[mint osprey]

yes

they split in 1E 420

and the last battle between nords and falmers 1E 139

i just googled it

[fervent quail]

Clan Rourken were the first to emigrate widely outside of Vvardanfell, but the dwemer as a whole had many settlements across tamriel thought to be outposts and research bases. The timeframe for falmer enslavement is quite wide, but that's about a generation or two of exile for elves

There were already dwemer settlements in skyrim at the time, often they were driven back whenever skyrim would unify under a high king but not fully destroyed either, so it's possible the falmer took refuge in some of those and survived until the clan that settled permanently in skyrim came back

[mint osprey]

okay it makes sense

lets have more questions

did zenimax comment somehow removing valenwood monkeys from the game?

Imga have been described in one of imperial guides but there is nothing about them in TESO

or maybe i didn't find

[slate shoal]

I think the way dawnguard uses them with the Falmer is almost a good story tbh

[slate shoal]

the Dwemer of Falmereth and the Falmer had both lived there for a time, with their people having somewhat tense relationships, trading and swapping things, as seen with the Snow Treaders in ESO.
||https://esoitem.uesp.net/itemLink.php?&antiquityid=119&quality=5||

[mint osprey]

i just thought is says somewhre that dwemers lived only in vvardefell until Rourken left. and there was no any information about dwemers being in skyrim until skyrim was released. but they also didnt give many new info about dwemers there, most books about them are from previous games

[slate shoal]

linked wrong thing hold on lol

https://esoitem.uesp.net/itemLink.php?&antiquityid=120&quality=5

"Is that really so odd? Snow Elves and Dwarves coexisted for untold centuries in what is now Skyrim. These rivets might be evidence of cross-cultural collaboration, right? Both civilizations had so much to teach each other!"

[mint osprey]

okey so they explained it in teso

[slate shoal]

I can't remember where but somewhere there's more mention of their coexistence

[mint osprey]

maybe somewhere in gerymoor dlc but i have't finished it, quests there were a torture

[slate shoal]

@mint osprey "In the night I overheard the Old Ones whispering secrets of the underground and the Dwemer who dwell there. I thought back on stories Father once told me of these dwarves, heroic tales of honor and glory. The Old Ones must know of these stories for it has been decided that we will change course upon first light. I feel hopeful that the Dwemer will help us to avenge our fallen and reclaim our land." https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Journal_of_Mirtil_Angoth

elves that tend to live for centuries being able to tell their children of tales like this is usually an indicator of longer lasting relations between peoples

[mint osprey]

yes this is what i was talking about. Snow prince died like 300 years before dwemers lelf vvardenfell

and what i meant is there is no any texts in a game saying dwemers came to skyrim first

[mint osprey]

so you can explain it like this

it makes sense, but there is no direct evidence of this

[slate shoal]

"According to some legends, the Dwemer originated from the same group as the Chimer, and were treated as another tribe, and later, as a secular Great House." it's possible they simply left Summerset or Aldmeris with the Chimer at the same time and settled along the way once in Skyrim

atheist elves? in my gnostic Altmeri society! EXILED

[mint osprey]

okay its good explanation

[fervent quail]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Fang_Lair
Here there is some lore saying how the Dwemer and Dragons fought, which would likely place dwemer settlements prior to the first era around Tamriel

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Yisareh
"Good eye. Legend has it that when Dwarves and Dragons both still walked the land they clashed here. The Dwarves unleashed their greatest works in defense of their home, but for all their invention they were no match for the raw power of the Dragon."

[mint osprey]

thank you

[fading flame]

So it’d make no sense for a daedra I.e a golden saint to say “speak quickly mortal”, to a vampire right?

[raw grail]

Well, no, they are still "a mortal" from the perspective of a spirit

Daedra don't die in general, not just from age. The closest they have is temporary (although undesirable)

[mossy moss]

Vampires are still 'mortals,' even if they're technically immortal in regard to lifespan.

[mossy moss]

I forget who exactly it was, but I believe one of the Loremasters stated that Imga prefer to retreat into hiding when conflict arises. That is, at least, the in-universe explanation for why the Imga are not present.

In reality, it probably has something to do with them being heavily based on negative racial stereotypes, and they'd rather ignore them than try to 'fix' that.

[mint osprey]

What kind of racial stereoripes? they just a beast race like kajits

[raw grail]

Check out the stuff in PGE1 about them and their alleged relationship to Altmeri culture

I'd explain it myself but I can't even say the word that refers to racial stereotyping etc without the bot snatching my message so I expect it can't be talked about so openly. I'd be happy to in DMs after work if you're interested

[slate shoal]

I hate how people are so stupid as to think race determines allegiances

[sharp lantern]

Tell it to Stormcloak supporters lol.

[fading flame]

Wait hold on, Serena asks “cyrodiil is the seat of an empire?” So she’s older than Tiber Septim, but if she asks that she must be even older. Like before the slave queen revolt… but perhaps not older than of course high king I gotta look more into this.

[tender ruin]

No, she was born near the end of the first era most likely, maybe the second
All we know is that she is over a thousand years old
Probably not as old as the Alessian Dynasty, as the start of the second era is already putting her around 1500 years old

[fading flame]

The empire was there, in the second era I’m pretty sure. And her mother probably even older. So she would have known about the Alessian Empire though at least? Which seat was in the imperial city?

[tender ruin]

Second Era was the Reman Dynasty, if that's what you mean by seat

[mint osprey]

Durnevir was imprisoned to keep watch on her mum. They must be older than dragon war

[tender ruin]

Whilst it's very possible, we still are never given a date regarding his imprisonment

[slate shoal]

this line would make her older than Alessia, that or she's just stupid

[tender ruin]

Well, there's a little under 400 years between the collapse of the Alessian Empire and the rise of the Reman Empire, so she could've been born then during the 1st era

Nothing in that dialogue outright states Cyrodiil hasn't been the capital of an empire before whilst she's alive

[mint osprey]

How did you end up in the Soul Cairn? "There was a time when I called Tamriel my home. But those days have long since passed. The dovah roamed the skies, vying for their small slices of territory that resulted in immense and ultimately fatal battles."

Were you a part of all that? "I was. But unlike some of my brethren, I sought solutions outside the norm in order to maintain my superiority. I began to explore what the dovah call "Alok-Dilon," the ancient forbidden art that you call necromancy."

sounds like he came there before dragon war because he mention dragons fighting to each other, not to humans

[fervent quail]

Interesting that the dragon calls it forbidden. Was it forbidden for the dragons? They had draugr, so must not have been that forbidden. Or does he mean by human standards? Because necromancy hasn't been banned in most cultures, barring the Oblivion period and perhaps Galerion's time

[mint osprey]

dragons didnt make draugrs

In fact, there is no clear explanation in the game why they are alive and some data contradicts others

[cunning aurora]

necromancy wasn't exactly illegal even during the end of the 3rd era but just banned by the mages guild's and the mages in it

[cunning aurora]

what data contradicts itself? I dont really know but just assume that the draugr are revenants like zombies or skeletons animated by some dragon priest's magic powers

[mint osprey]

because there are like 9 priests and thosudand tombs so it doesnt make sense that they all would be ressurected by them

[cunning aurora]

we don't know how powerful the priests are exactly

[mint osprey]

and if draugr meet a dragon they are fighting, so why would priests reanimate people who hate dragons

[cunning aurora]

Ive also read that it's the souls of the draugr that nourish the dragon priests since a dragon priest is a specific type of lich

[cunning aurora]

a zombie doesn't really have autonomous thoughts either now do they

but youre kinda right like not every burial dungeon thingy was made specifically for dragon cults i think

according to uesp the draugr we fight are mostly associated with the dragon cult, which explains them speaking in dragon speech and using the thu'um against you. So they might just be reanimated by a dragon priest

[mint osprey]

two more things

first, a lot of tombs were made even before the war with dragons but still have draugrs, even Ingol is draugr somehow

second, draugrh were invented before most of skyrim lore

there were no dragon priests and war with dragons when we got Bloodmoon

Red Eagle is also a draugr and he is not even nord

[cunning aurora]

dragon cult does not automatically mean war against dragons. The fact that the burrows existed even before the war against dragons just further proves that it is in fact the dragon cult

[mint osprey]

so i guess developers dont know the answer too because there are lore mixed with game conventions

[mint osprey]

i said it because there was something in a game saying "dragons cursed nords for fighting against them"

and there is also a thing saying dragons made priests immortal to serve them forever

and priests absorb energy from other draugrs

and many of them hate dragons

its all just doesnt make any sense

[fervent quail]

It's possible they forgot to make them friendly to dragons, or maybe they aren't supposed to be friendly, but more like keeping a hostile animal in your house to stop other hostile animals from roaming around like a spider in the corner

[cunning aurora]

i mean their purpose is to guard the crypts

[glacial scarab]

The full line is "Cyrodiil is the seat of an empire? I must have been gone longer than I thought. Definitely longer than we planned. Please, let's hurry. I need to get home so I can figure out what's happened." Basically being surprised that an Empire rose again during their time in stasis.

Now the only timeframe we have is when she was locked away which is a Empire from Cyrodiil fell which is Post Alessian or Reman Empires. What we don't know given she's a Vampire is how long she has existed for

[mint osprey]

there is a place where they put dragon on purpose to make him fight with draugrs

[mint osprey]

it can also mean Cyrodiil has never been an empire before she got locked

because in first era there was a Skyrim empire before Cyrodiil that is what she was probably talking about

[glacial scarab]

First Era you have to be between Reman and Alessians to not have an Empire in Cyrodiil because of Ayleid shannigans

[sharp lantern]

The Ayleids had an Empire so there's also that 🤷‍♂️

[mossy moss]

He probably did. There was a period of time where dragons ruled over Skyrim before the Dragon War occurred, of course!

[mint osprey]

first there was a skyrim empire in 1E 143, Alessian empire appeared in 1E 243 she could be imprisionned between this dates

[glacial scarab]

There is no gap between the Ayleid and Alessian Empires.

[mint osprey]

she was imprisionned in skyrim empire before Alessia made her own empire

[glacial scarab]

That still means there's an Empire in Cyrodiil

As there's a whole Ayleid Empire down in Cyrod with the quite possibly Emperor Umaril

[mint osprey]

but there is a contradiction anyway, durnevir was sent to soul cairn obviously before the war with dragons, but since serana even knows the word "empire" she was imprisioned after at least one of them came up

[mint osprey]

not sure if you can call it empire. i dont remember any texts referring to it as empire, it was just kingdom or something

but i may be wrong

not the best source but still
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Empires

[glacial scarab]

Umaril is said in Ayleid texts to be the liege-lord of an Ayleid king.

The issue of the Ayleid state is that we hear so little that it's a bit of a jumbled mess.

[mint osprey]

doesnt mention such thing as ayleid empire

[mint osprey]

well In fact, an empire is an association of several countries, the Ayleids had only one

[glacial scarab]

Same can be said for Cyrodiil. Whenever Cyrodiil unites there's no High Kingdom just the Empire

[mint osprey]

but it always includes several countries or provinces

[tender ruin]

There is a gap between the Alessian and Reman Empires of 300+ years, but no gap between the Ayleid and Alessian

[mint osprey]

there is no ayleid empire

[glacial scarab]

rip copy some offical text got eaten by the bot

[mint osprey]

i will believe if you show me anything saying ayleid had an empire and not the kingdom

[glacial scarab]

They had an Empire. Just like Cyrodiil had an Empire.

We must forge a unified front against these upstart Men or we might share the same fate as our liege-lord. (Message being sent to an Ayleid King)

"Umaril the Unfeathered, the sorceror-king of the Ayleids who ruled over this land for long ages before the rise of Men.

Garlas Malatar was the westernmost outpost of the Ayleid empire

[mint osprey]

okay i believe

then it doesnt make sense

[mint osprey]

she coud have been imprisioned by this time

but Valerica escaped in the same period

so there would not be durnevir

[mint osprey]

i will just check all her phrases again

first hint

"My family used to live on an island to the west of Solitude."

we have no info about date of building Solitude though

How long were you in there?
"Good question. Hard to say. I... I can't really tell. I feel like it was a long time. Who is Skyrim's High King?"

Harald became the first king of Skyrim in 1E 143 after defeating falmers

so it must be after this date

The Empire supports Elisif, but there are many in Skyrim loyal to Ulfric.
"Empire? What... what empire?"
The... Empire. From Cyrodiil.
"Cyrodiil is the seat of an empire?

sounds like she came there before any empires

or before Cyrodiil became an empire

if Ayleid had an empire then it has always been an empire

so here are three options

1. Developers don't know their lore
2. Serana didn't know about Ayleid empire but knew about Skyrim empire
3. Serana didn't know about any empires, but she would not know this word then

[brazen crystal]

I don't necessarily agree with the third premise. She could have been aware of the concept and the word while not being aware of an empire having existed.

[mint osprey]

"So, this is snow elf magic. Incredible."
She must have never seen them before

Also he is not suprised when she see corrupted falmers, so maybe developers forgot to add it or maybe she saw them like this
So probably she was born after the war with falmers

Serana: "The blood of a vampire... Auriel's Bow... It was you? You created that prophecy?"
Arch-Curate Vyrthur: "A prophecy that lacked a single, final ingredient... the blood of a pure vampire. The blood of a Daughter of Coldharbour."
So it was definitely after the war with falmers because Vyrtur became a vampire many years after that

"They used to call Windhelm, "the City of Kings." In my books, anyway."
"I had expected Ysgramor's city to be ... bigger."
So she was imprisioned after a few kings existed in skyrim

[fading flame]

She also knows about the college, she did live a sheltered life by her mother as well. Her mother seems to know a lot of things, how to contact ideal masters and trick them.

[mint osprey]

"Nordic ruins. Even older than I am. I wonder if the draugr are as gullible as they were when I was a girl."

"Is this a dwarven city? I can't believe they'd let it get so run down."

"I always wondered what the dwarves actually looked like. I hear they're like elves, but with beards."

Serana is voiced by noted voice actress Laura Bailey. (IMDb) She would return to voice Dame Isobel Veloise in The Elder Scrolls Online: High Isle.
just a cool fact

okay thats all usefull what i found about serana, now will check valerica

[fading flame]

Were they ruins when she was a younger you think? I forget when the dragon cult was destroyed. Also I forget that the vampire movarth and harkon are both in the book immortal blood.

[mint osprey]

ruins existed before and after dragon cult

the first ever human building in tamriel is Ingold's grave

and he is a draugr

and there are few ruins made after dragon cult was destroyed

they also have draugrs

so it is difficult to understand how old is she, but what we can definitely tell is: she have never seen falmers and dwemers, she was born after a few kings ruled skyrim, windhelm was the capital, she have seen draugrs

also Harkon said they are the oldest and strongest vampires of skyrim

[mossy moss]

I don’t agree with this conclusion. I find it very reasonable that someone would assume Cyrodiil would fail to form an Empire again after the Alessian Empire fell. It doesn’t have to mean she was before any empire was there.

[mint osprey]

maybe, so it can be anytime when Cyrodii was not an empire

[mossy moss]

Yeah, but given the other information we have, the most probable timeline when she was put “on ice” is between the Alessian and Reman Empires.

[mint osprey]

but it should be earlier than 2E because Tsaesci killed most dragons by the end of 1E as i remember. And Durnevir says this "There was a time when I called Tamriel my home, but those days have long since passed. The dovah roamed the skies, vying for their small slices of territory that resulted in immense and ultimately fatal battles."

he came to cairn to get power to fight other dragons

there would be no one to fight at the end of first era

Reman empire was founded in 1E 2703

and Alessian collapsed in 1E 2331

it sounds logical but did dragons massively fight with each other for territory in this period?

[raw grail]

I believe you've shifted that a little. Iirc it was in the interregnum between Reman and Septim

When did Serana get put to sleep? (2013-09-05)    Edit

The intention was that Serana went to sleep in the late second era, between the Reman and Septim empires. Her initial dialogue is just her surprise that there's an Empire in Cyrodiil, as there hadn't been when she went to sleep.

[mint osprey]

wait, dudes. how can Serana be born before Reman empire if Cyrodil was named Cyrodil after Reman Cyrodil ? But she knows what is Cyrodil

[mint osprey]

sound good, but what about Durnevir?

is there Harkon in Greymoor btw? i haven't played it

[raw grail]

Oblivion and time have a weird relationship

[cunning aurora]

but what if serana is just stupid

[raw grail]

No, but he and his clan are extant and briefly talked about a couple times

"Are the mortal inhabitants of the Shivering Isles subject to the effects of Time? Those who have departed Tamriel under Lord Sheogorath's wing seem to live for centuries in between Greymarches if the ravings of madmen are to be believed. Knowledge of their fate might help assuage the grief of certain members of the Mages Guild who have had recent dealings with the Madgod.

– Legoless, Doyen of the United Explorers of Scholarly Pursuits"

Chamberlain Haskill says, "Oh, of course, 'Doyen,' because assuaging the grief of mortals is so important to me. Let me be clear: inhabitants of the Shivering Isles are affected by Time, but we are not subject to it. We are subjects of Lord Sheogorath, who subjects us to whatever subjects he is in the mood to subjudicate. Because Time is subjective."

- Chamberlain Haskill Answers Your Questions

Not that I can recall. The first time I saw you was when you were wearing your golden armor.
"You don't remember me? I was afraid of that. Meridia told me that time worked differently in Oblivion, but I didn't believe her. What's happened to me hasn't happened to you yet.
That doesn't matter now. What matters is I found you."
- Darien Gautier
Where the Black Books actually came from... no one really knows. Some appear to have been written in the past, others might be from the future. Apparently time is more malleable if you're a Daedric Prince of fate and destiny."
- Neloth

[fading flame]

Of Skyrim is the keyword, but also Movarth is also there. But he pretty much was just a small boss fight nothing too dramatic :p

[brittle kite]

How do i find more lore on this Ascended Immortal? Im sure there's a lot of tales written about this random NPC in this cave!

same energy

[fading flame]

They're just people who lived and served dagon and now they're going through endless torment

[brittle kite]

Serves them right!

[fading flame]

Well how ever long the oblivion crisis and mancarcameron had paradise

[lone saddle]

Please do not dodge the curse filter

[fading flame]

wait a second, does that mean the underking is still alive? If manimarco didn't become a god but did at the same time?

[sharp lantern]

I think the Mannimarco we encounter in TES IV is just a farce. The powers in the Iliac Bay both winning and losing is because their endings inherently contradict one another; Wayrest, Daggerfall, Sentinel, the Empire and Orsinium can't all win, as any of them using the Numidium contradicts the other outcomes.

So they made a compromise; the Bay powers and Orsinium increased in territory and swallowed up many independent fiefdoms - they're all "loyal" to the Empire as to make the Blades' use of the Numidium line up.

But the Underking or Mannimarco? Their endings don't contradict each other, or any other ending, so I don't see why those would both happen and not happen.

[fading flame]

I realize that many of elder scrolls games and whatnot may have contradictions. I think the Underking, and Manimarco are strong and powerful warlocks.
But isn't the warp of the west the whole contradiction in itself? It's really deciding who got the mantella.

Also. sheogorath was there... He seems to be involved in every little thing... I am starting to think Sheogorath is just a twitter troll in human form.

[sharp lantern]

The Warp in the West was a dragon break to solve the contradictions in the ending of Daggerfall.

But as said, those contradictions are mostly over territory - the outcome. Everyone who could get the Numidium also got the Numidium.

So for the Underking, he draws the power of the Mantella toward himself so he can rest.

For Mannimarco, he draws the Mantella toward himself to turn into a god.

The only real endings which are impossible to coexist are those of the Empire and the Bay Powers;

If the Empire gets the Numidium, the kingdoms of the Iliac Bay are pacified to restore Imperial authority.

If any of the other Bay Powers win, they destroy the others and conquer the Iliac Bay.

Gortwog uses the Numidium to carve out Orsinium and get the Orcs recognition as people.

Tbh, I consider the Underking and Gortwog as the best choices, but that's just me. 🤷‍♂️

[fading flame]

Underking just takes the mantella and kills himself just about. He wants to correct an error he made before he passes

[sharp lantern]

Yep, that's why I like his ending, it's just closing a chapter and him getting rest.

[gaunt bear]

Has anyone noticed that the Dovah, whom can, reputedly, use the Thu’um to ‘blot out the sky and flood the land, seemingly… don’t? Well, I’ve got an attempt to explain it written up in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

The first time that Thedas and Mundus became “hooked together” was during the Dragon War, when Alduin “broke through the sky” of Thedas and assailed the ancient elven civilization. As part of a three-pronged strike, with the Tongues battling Alduin and a United Army (inspired by the Last Alliance) marching on Bromunjaar, the high priests/priestesses of the Dalish Gods gathered at what is now Skyhold and sacrificed themselves to “cast their Seal to hold back the sky”, which sealed off, not only Alduin, but all Dovah from their quasi-divine powers.

Ever since, the Seal has been weakening with the flow of time, but it’s been strengthened every so often, with Martin Septim’s sacrifice being the most recent. However, the opening of the Breach has now opened a “hole” in the seal, so to speak. Since then, the Dovah, Alduin included, has been, slowly but surely, regaining their quasi-divine powers, with Alduin’s ability to resurrect Dovah being the least of his abilities. But, as a kind of blessing from Divine Father, Matthias (my Dragonborn) has been gaining similar powers due to him being Dovahkiin.

[tender ruin]

No, Cyrodiil was not named after Reman, he named himself after Cyrodiil

Cyrodiil is elven

[fading flame]

Wait... I just realized, the dragons are Wyverns... the only actual western dragon would be peryite.

[balmy salmon]

There's also Daedric Titans, which are the Daedra Princes' take on dragons.

Made from actual dragon remains.

[sharp lantern]

Wyverns are dragons

[fading flame]

they don't have hands

So they're lesser imo. peryite can grab things without probably having to use his mouth

[sharp lantern]

Dragons don't need hands tho?

[fading flame]

Then how will they open doors?

So wait, how do daedra lords make daedra? Sure molag made the titan but wouldn't he need a lot of titans to make them? Or do daedra lords need one creature then can replicate them?

[gaunt bear]

They don’t. Not that I’m aware of, anyway.

[woeful gyro]

Why use the door when you can just knock the entire house down by yelling at it really hard

[fading flame]

I spent hours making a house gathering materials for it, and had it built up and if it gets burned down or his wing breaks through the door or he kicks half my house, I'm putting his soul in a soul gem and giving it to Boethia so she can eat him like she ate trinimac.

[tender ruin]

They don't
Any Daedra they create were done so by taking a pre-existing Daedra and modifying them

Molag Bal for example made the Xivkyn by combining Dremora and Xivilai

[mint osprey]

As i remember all sentient daedras are initial spirits. These dudes cant be killed permanenty because their animus can respawn.
Now my cuestion. What about non-sentient daedras? Like lurkers, elytras, clannfears? Can they respawn too? Are they initial spirits but dumb? Or they created by daedra lords as a fauna for their planes?

[fading flame]

Yea, they change them I got that part. I’m asking how they make multiple. From one? He transformed one dragon and got like 50 titans

[fading flame]

You know what the mages guild and college of winterhold need? a new school of magic... called the study of the voice, unless it's not... magic? 🤔

[proven moss]

The schools of magic are fairly arbitrary. Spells are then classified based on whatever the agreed upon traits of any single school are.
The Thu'um are definitely spells. The main thing that distinguishes them from other spells is the medium, I guess you could say.
So in that sense they could make Thu'um it's own school. But I don't think they would. Instead Fire Breath would go into Destruction, Dismay would go into Illusion, etc.

[fervent quail]

It's magic not using mana, so it would be slightly different

[sharp lantern]

It is magic, but good luck establishing a school when only a handful of people, most of which are hermits, are the only ones who know it.

[fading flame]

I mean, if there are more dragons around since alduin came about. I wouldn't be surprised if other dragons can revive other dragons. And maybe one will like sleep at the college of winterhold or something and teach people there...

The wizards there are quite powerful though, ever seen a dragon attack winterhold? All the teachers summon daedra and shoot so many... fireballs, maybe one of them will want to be the arch mage or something.

[sharp lantern]

Imagine the entire College just being dragons lol.

[fading flame]

I'd love to get into a shouting match with the entire college if that was the case.

[sharp lantern]

Arch-Mage is Alduin.

[fading flame]

There is no way the hist and alduin weren't beefing, but he probably resurrected dragons all across tamerial and maybe akavir, wouldn't suprised me if he did.

[balmy salmon]

I always assumed Elytra were mortal creatures because they had a reproductive cycle instead of being born full grown from creatia.

[mint osprey]

Maybe, but what about other animal-like daedras? Clannfears, hungers, daedrats

[balmy salmon]

There's a text in ESO where someone witnesses a Daedroth being reborn https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_Plasm

[fading flame]

Now that I think about it, grummites lay eggs. So wait daedra can reproduce… hmmmm… so they can just keep making more and more unlimited forever living beings that just go back and regenerate?

[fading flame]

The Kamal invaded tamerial... Now listen, if they've traveled via boat and all that's ok... But hear me out, what if they traveled via ice berg?

[upper field]

Didn't Tiber Septim try to establish a school to reintroduce the Voice to the wider public?

[prime peak]

Were there dinosaurs before manlike beings in elder scrolls

I know black marsh has dinosaur kind of things

[uncut hatch]

Pretty sure it was just dragons and the tree homies that made the argonians, so maybe there were some sort of prehistoric argonians? I may be entirely incorrect though

[balmy salmon]

I always figured Grummites were mortal.

[fading flame]

Dragon frogs are a thing, I think dragon frogs are perfect.

[fading flame]

I mean, probably. Even I don't know what lies in the ocean in real life I can only imagine the primordial horrors that live in the ocean floor in the elder scrolls universe.

[sharp lantern]

Yeah, but it seems it didn't take off.

[gaunt bear]

Hopefully there's an abandoned "schoolhouse" to explore, as well as some secret Shouts to learn. That's something I'd like to explore that's different from caves, ruins, etc..

[rotund dust]

Are minotaurs an intelligent beast race like kahjit or argonians? If so then why can't they be chosen as a race for character creation?

[brisk perch]

Minotaurs are as intelligent as other playable races, at least they were historically.

[proven moss]

We have no idea if they've ever been considered as a playable race. If they had though, it makes a lot of sense why they weren't included. Their morphology is very different from the other races. They're considerably larger, making clipping and immersion problems. Also their heads and legs which would prohibit wearing helmets/boots. Not to mention the weirdness of looting human-sized clothing to put on your enormous frame.

[mossy moss]

Most of Tamriel’s various folk were of advanced intelligence at one point in time. It’s mostly devolution as a result of cultural persecution. At least one of them was Emperor of the Alessian Empire before the Marukhati Selective decided to be incredibly bigoted and persecute pretty much everyone.

[mint osprey]

Daedrots aren't animals, they can use magic and even wore pants in morrowind, they probably can even talk

[mint osprey]

No, first living beings in tamriel were ehlnofey and hist. In black marsh any type of animals can exist because hist transform them in any way need

[mint osprey]

There are a lot of intelligent races unavailable for player. It is just a tradition to use those 10 whose were created in arena

[mint osprey]

I think devs just didn't put enough effort to make minotaurs interesting. In teso they are more lore accurate. They live in camps there kinda like reachmen, wear clothes and armor, and can even use advanced magic

[balmy salmon]

I'd assume the less intelligent daedra work the same way, reforming from creatia after being killed.

[mossy moss]

All Daedra work the same way.

[tender ruin]

That's not more lore-accurate, that's further proof of the degradation of their race, as ESO takes place in the second era, and Minotaurs are little more than brutes by the third and fourth eras

In fact Minotaurs are hunted, and killed in the Imperial Arena for entertainment, so everyone is free to do what they like to them

[mint osprey]

Can they choose any form for respawning?

[mint osprey]

Okay, it may be true

Or, maybe they just used appearance of minotaurus from arena

[fervent quail]

Crazy treatment of the race of the second human emperor of the Alessian empire

[mossy moss]

Calling him a human emperor is funny.

[mint osprey]

Why do we have white gold tower in cyrodil and cold harbour at the same time in teso? I remember there was a quest where you have to prevent sucking it into oblivion

[pulsar ridge]

hot take: dwemer are the current falmer that were plagued by disease so they lost intelligence and eyesight.

[mint osprey]

Why

[glacial scarab]

If I recall Coldharbour was meant to be a dark reflection.

[jovial lark]

Also goblinoids, which were already settled on the Summerset Isles long before the exodus from old Elnohfey

[jovial lark]

Except we know that they are the descendants of the Chimer who were given protection by the dwemer in exchange for becoming slaves?

[pulsar ridge]

aww man

the toxic plant thing?

[jovial lark]

Yeah

Sorry if I came across as rude.

[mint osprey]

Thank you

[mint osprey]

I thought all sentient creatures were decendants of Ehlnofey

[jovial lark]

Most, not all.

[mint osprey]

There was a youtuber though who made a theory that dwemers turned into orks after dragon break in the first council war

[mint osprey]

So who made goblins?

[pulsar ridge]

a little too big of a physical change, if u compare the "last surviving dwarve" in a previous game they dont look alike at all

[jovial lark]

Orcs were created by the changing of Trinimac to Malacath. His devoted followers changed as he did.

[jovial lark]

My personal assumption is they were a side effect of the war of manifest metaphor

They appear everywhere as a mimicry of other sentient creatures

[pulsar ridge]

oh yea ik this question was asked before, but i never saw a definite answer, considering the dragonborn has the soul of a dragon, and meets many daedra who all have claims to his/her soul, and all that. what happens when they die?

[mint osprey]

I know it, but he would say something like its just a legend that appeared as a result of dragon break. I dont remember all of his arguments, its a pretty old video

[jovial lark]

Akatosh claims them, regardless of deals were made. His soul always returns to him

[mint osprey]

I think one of main arguments was that there is a dude named Dumalakath dwarf-ork in one of the books

[pulsar ridge]

so i can point the middle finger at nocturnal while i get the powers for free

[jovial lark]

Yes

[pulsar ridge]

what does akatosh do though?

is he evil or what

[jovial lark]

Dumac Dwarf-Orc

The guy who planned and created the Numidium

[mint osprey]

They will tear his soul, everyone take a part. We saw it happening in teso

[jovial lark]

Akatosh is the reason Deadra can't manifest easily on Nirn, the dragon fires are like a barrier to keep the mortal races safe

[pulsar ridge]

so not evil

[jovial lark]

Neutral

Not good, not evil

[pulsar ridge]

thats a little violent and different from @jovial lark

[jovial lark]

None of the aedra or Deadra are good or evil

[mint osprey]

No it was saying exactly Dumalacath, like combo of dumac and malakath

[pulsar ridge]

some daedra are obviously evil, they tried to take over nirn, treat mortals as pawns and stuff

[sharp lantern]

Orcs are recorded to predate the Malacath creation myth though.

[mint osprey]

But isnt it broken?

[jovial lark]

Same person.

[mint osprey]

Molag bal is definitely evil😅

[jovial lark]

None are good or evil. They can only act based upon thier nature. All of them regardless are singular parts of a greater whole

[mint osprey]

Why different name?

[jovial lark]

Different recording of the name by different races

[mint osprey]

Okay, fair enough

[pulsar ridge]

then we have to discuss what are they? theyre not "gods" and i wouldnt say they are mortals yet they have their own realms of oblivion. so they are acting according to their nature but what are they?

[mint osprey]

Spirits of creaton or whatever

[jovial lark]

Fractured parts of a dreaming gods mind

[mint osprey]

I think this is too deep in Kirkbrides mind

[pulsar ridge]

are you reffering to the possibility proposed that all of elder scrolls is a dreaming god

[sharp lantern]

The Daedra are those Gods who were part since the beginning of time, but didn't take part in creating the world. The Aedra are those who did take part in creating the world.

[mint osprey]

Its hard to believe they are part of a whole. Their aspects are completely random, if you combine all together it will be a heap of random words not a megazord or something

Especially because some of them appeared later than others

[jovial lark]

Not really.

Dagoth Ur in Morrowind refers to himself as Sharmat.

A Sharmat is a being who takes over the current dream and recreates it according to thier personality. It's what Dagoth Ur built Akhulakhan for

[mint osprey]

Periyte is the lord of tasks, order and plague. What's the point of that at all

[mint osprey]

Okay, but i still dont get it. I didnt finish morrowind

So no idea what are you talking about

[jovial lark]

Essentially the dreamer is a mad entity that doesn't fully understand emotions so it dreams to try and understand them.

The Aedra and Deadra are how it understands these emotions, without morals to guide them.

[mint osprey]

This is so weird. I watched tons of videos about elder scrolls and have never heard about it

[jovial lark]

That's understandable. A lot of what I understand is from Morrowind, Oblivion and ESO, which Kirkbride was heavily involved in

[mint osprey]

Well, i also played eso and oblivion but dont remember anything like this described there

[jovial lark]

Some YouTubers despise him though, so the don't mention things he's put in games if they can help it

[mint osprey]

Also a lot of stuff he made up was removed from lore, so sometimes its difficult to understand what is canonic and what is not

[jovial lark]

Mankar Camoran used Mehrune's Razor to perform the Surgery of Lyg on himself and change his true name and race, and we deal with that as part of Oblivions main quest

[mint osprey]

As far as i know he wrote some kind of book as a sequel to morrowind but it has nothing to do with relevant lore

[jovial lark]

Canon in TES is iffy at best

[jovial lark]

Oh CoDA. Fun read, but very strange

[mint osprey]

I guess its from books of mancar or from his speech. It seemed to me they left it in a game as a reference to kirkbride because they didnt do anything else to this information

Maybe there is something more from eso?

[jovial lark]

It has a ton of lore hidden in side missions or in books found across the world

[mint osprey]

What for example?

[jovial lark]

Like during the events of Auridon for example, a group called the Veiled Heritance are trying to establish political dominance.

One of the ways they do this separately to the main story arc, is to set up rituals for Mannimarco in the shrines of various deadric princes to establish Molag Bal's dominance over the area.

By piecing together the letters you find, you learn he's trying to take over a portion of Coldharbour to become godlike. This gets proven at a later point in the main story

A lot of lore has to found in game

*games

[mint osprey]

This is interesting

But not as crazy as things you said before

I heard there is a time traveller in the black reach, who is he?

I didnt play greymoor

[jovial lark]

I'm not that far into that story yet, so I'm not sure

[sharp lantern]

Don't know his name, only vaguely remember his quest.

[mint osprey]

I like to ask random questions. Does anyone know why zenimax changed anatony of kwama so much?

[fervent quail]

Falmer are from Chimer? It could be possible, but the Falmer at least have been in Skyrim for a looooong time too

[mint osprey]

I think he meant dwemer are chimer

[jovial lark]

No

[mint osprey]

Okaaay

How is it even possible?😭

Let me think before you give an answer

Chimers are dudes who came with Velot from Sammerset to morrowind. Dwemers were part of them and they splited later

[jovial lark]

Falmer are the Chimer that accepted the Dwarves offer

Orcs are Chimer that follow Malacath

Dunmer are Chimer that chose to follow the tribunal and piss off azura

[mint osprey]

But i thought falmers came straight from sammerset and they are decendants of aldmers

[fervent quail]

Given they worshipped Auri-el, I'd assume they came straight from the Aldmer like the other offshoots

[mint osprey]

Yeah, i thought so too

The Chimer (Aldmeris: People of the North[1]), also called the Changed Folk,[2] Changed Ones,[3] or Velothi,[4] are ancestors of the modern Dunmer, or Dark Elves. The Chimer clans followed the Prophet Veloth out of the ancestral Elven homelands in the southwest to settle in the lands now known as Morrowind. As evidenced by Almalexia and Vivec, the Chimer had golden skin color similar to that of the Altmer.

People of the north though

But it may mean people of the north of summerset

[mint osprey]

Can you find any ingame sources saying falmers came from chimers?

[jovial lark]

Calcelmo on markath and the high elf at the inn in einterhold?

[mint osprey]

Let me see

Didnt find him saying anything about falmers other than translating their language

[sharp lantern]

Fairly certain the origins of the Falmer isn't ever explicitly stated. But it seems they found their origins from the Altmer, given their similar Pantheons.

[mint osprey]

I will check dialogues with elf in the inn a bit later

[sharp lantern]

Chimer abandoned the Altmer because they wanted to worship the Daedra, after all.

And the Falmeri Pantheon does not contain Daedra - only deities matching that of the Altmer.

[mint osprey]

I believe this version more

[mint osprey]

Dialogue with Enthir

What exactly is a Falmer?:

"In the time before man, they were known as the snow elves. They lived in the sunlight and had a very prosperous society."

So they were like your kind?:

"Like the Altmer Yes, I would say their culture quite possibly rivaled our own."

So it was close to altmers, not to chimers. But i will search more

[mossy moss]

The Falmer are not descendants of the Chimer. I don't know where you got that idea from.

[mossy moss]

No, I don't know where you got this idea from either. Dragonborn souls don't automatically return to Akatosh. We see several Dragonborns in Sovngarde when we visit in TES V.

[mossy moss]

"Dumalacath" is only referenced in the Tale of Dro'Zira which is a story a Khajiit father incredibly high on moon sugar told to his cub. It's not a trustworthy source by any means.

[mint osprey]

Also miraak is the dragonborn and his soul was in apocrypha

[mossy moss]

Miraak never died, so his soul wasn't anywhere besides his own body.

[mint osprey]

Good explanaition, but that is basically how the most of elder scrolls lore was written😂

[mossy moss]

That's... not true and is a common myth that needs to stop being spread, honestly. MK was not abusing drugs during the time he worked on TES.

[mint osprey]

Really? For some reason i thought he was dead all this time. Like a zombie or something. Because he spent 5000 years in there so why would he still be alive?

[sharp lantern]

Time works different in Oblivion

[mint osprey]

So for him it wasnt 5000 years?

[sharp lantern]

Probably even longer 💀

[mossy moss]

It may or may not have felt like it, but physical time does not work the same way.

[sharp lantern]

But Mora would've kept him alive, because what other Prince can flex having a Dragonborn?

[mint osprey]

How did this myth appear? I was sure its real because his lore is really crazy

[mossy moss]

The myth primarily appeared because the lore is crazy, but the real reason his lore is crazy is because he's a theology major and IRL religious texts are insane.

[sharp lantern]

Bruh

The Kirkbride being on drugs myth came from a "funpost" he made which got taken out of context IIRC.

It annoys him a fair bit. His UESP article says stuff on it.

[mint osprey]

I didnt know that

[raw grail]

Thaddeus Cosma

In "Tones of the Deep"

[mossy moss]

There's also a time traveling Khajiit in ESO now too.

[raw grail]

I don't know that one

[raw grail]

I don't think anything he made was removed, really

Some of the unofficial stuff swings either way on whether it ends up getting used, but his official stuff is at worst changed rather than outright removed

[mossy moss]

Zerith-var was sent forward in time by Azurah; he belonged to the Order of the Hidden Moon. He's a companion in ESO.

[raw grail]

Ohh

I've heard a lot about him but didn't realize he was sent into the future

[mossy moss]

He even has a pet spectral cat that Azurah gifted him!

[mint osprey]

They probably added more of his early lore is eso but i didnt play much in it, probably finished around 40% of quests or less

[sharp lantern]

Tbh, ESO has added too much lore imo, it makes it difficult to digest it all.

[mint osprey]

They had to, because it has the whole tamriel

It would be less interesting with less lore

I wish they would add something more significent

[sharp lantern]

Sure, I'm not saying I don't enjoy it, but it's difficult to remember it when there's so much.

[mint osprey]

Like in skyrim we have got falmer caves, and as i know there was no corrupted falmers innlore before

So its a new type of exploring thing

[jovial lark]

Some of his "unofficial" work is quoted almost word for word in Skyrim. By Heimskir in whiterun

[mossy moss]

The Dragon Cult also did not exist prior to TES V. New games always add new things.

[mint osprey]

But in eso all provinces has ayleid ruins and nothing else ancient

So i would like to see something new in this way

[raw grail]

Yeah, his unofficial work influences or becomes official fairly frequently

[mossy moss]

All provinces do not have Ayleid ruins. There are no Ayleid ruins in the Isles, Skyrim, or Morrowind.

[sharp lantern]

Though it does leave out the line about jungles.

[raw grail]

Aldudagga and Shor Son of Shor kind of set up Kalpas before Skyrim released as teasers for the concepts. The Nords' Totemic Pantheon that he and KK created got used in the Prima Guide and later served as the foundation for an ESO book

(KK being Kurt Kuhlmann, MK's partner in crime)

[mint osprey]

Yes but i feel like there ud not enough of it in teso

[raw grail]

They kinda did but it was veeeeery vague

[sharp lantern]

I still miss the Nord Pantheon, Morrowind and Oblivion had these hints to it and then in Skyrim it's just... gone, mostly.

[mint osprey]

Okay, in almost all provinces

[raw grail]

It's difficult to keep up with, I agree, especially if you're not actively playing it

[raw grail]

Which is ironic because it was barely developed until Skyrim

It got expanded massively for Skyrim and then they did so little with it

[sharp lantern]

Yeah, that leaves out jungle?

[raw grail]

I'm very glad that ESO is able to expand on the Totemic Pantheon

[mossy moss]

The Dragon Cult has plenty of ruins we enter in ESO, though the Cult itself has not been touched on much. There's no reason to as they're pretty much dormant during that time, though we do encounter a Dragon Priest on the first zone of the Ebonhart Pact questline.

Also, the Elsweyr expansion has the whole Khajiiti Dragon Cult thing going on to be fair.

[jovial lark]

I breathe now in royalty, and reshape the land.

Seems pretty clear to me

[sharp lantern]

I mean you had Varieties of Faith in the Empire in TES III, the Frysa Hags of Kyne in Bloodmoon, also Imperial Cult Priest Jeleen in Bloodmoon, and the Nords of Bruma in Oblivion refusing to venerate the nine in favor of their own gods - particulatly Ysmir.

[sharp lantern]

Can also be interpreted as Septim reforming Tamriel's political landscape. 🤷‍♂️

[raw grail]

Well, yes, they existed, but they weren't actually expanded beyond what any other culture's religion was

[mint osprey]

I didnt mean not enough of dragon cult i meant not enough of something that i probably cant explain well

[jovial lark]

It directly references this, and it's meaning is explicit

[sharp lantern]

And again, it explicitly leaves out the part about jungle.

[mossy moss]

To be fair, the Imperialization of the Nords had canonically been happening since the Alessian Empire. PGE1 talks about how the western holds are mostly Imperialized, while the eastern holds still honor the old ways.

I feel like the old ways were lost more and more as the people of Skyrim became so devoted to the Septim Empire and Talos.

[raw grail]

It was a framework that hadn't been filled out yet. They filled out that framework prior to Skyrim, with the totems and the various portions of the pantheon and a better display of the relationships between the gods and Nords, but that didn't get displayed much in Skyrim (except some subtle or environmental ways, like the puzzles, the 3 Hearth Goddesses being the 3 with dedicated temples (alongside Talos), the Halls of the Dead...)

[sharp lantern]

They had ditched the Eight Divines with the rise of High King Wulfharth, and afaik, it was never reintroduced again thereafter.

Until Skyrim, obviously.

[jovial lark]

Skyrim did a lot to dumb down lore from previous games to ease people into playing though

[mint osprey]

I heard the same was done in oblivion

[mossy moss]

The eastern holds worshipping the Divines is stated in PGE1.

Which was written before the Third Era.

[jovial lark]

Oblivion being like that is because it was released when LoTR was massively popular

[raw grail]

Every entry in TES has in some way appealed to a larger audience

[mint osprey]

I wonder why did they choose cyrodil and not high rock for the game

[raw grail]

Daggerfall fans were mad at Morrowind, Morrowind fans at Oblivion, Oblivion fans at Skyrim

[raw grail]

They'd done a good part of High Rock just two games prior

[jovial lark]

More popular with the fanbase and easier to plan, especially after Daggerfall

[sharp lantern]

Where?

[mint osprey]

I wouldnt say done, it was just a plane field with generic dungeons. They could make it again but with better details. It seems they are going to do it with tes 6

[sharp lantern]

I'm going to guess sailing will be TES 6.

[raw grail]

Going back to the Iliac Bay after 4 games is a lot different than going back after 2, even if it wasn't done in as much detail

[mint osprey]

Idk i i played oblivion a bit as a child, then skyrim, then oblivion again, then teso, then morrowind. I like all of them

[raw grail]

Besides, imo there's scant evidence (if any) that High Rock will be particularly involved in TES6. Even the idea Adamantia is involved is heavily reliant on speculation and connecting older, unofficial sources from different times in development with some more modern, also unofficial sources. To be clear, I'm all for using unofficial sources for context, but you have to be careful with how you connect them

Here, specifically, they're Nu-Mantia (made in part for KotN) and the Altmeri Commentary on Talos (seemingly released leading up to Skyrim iirc)

[raw grail]

Oh, yeah, it's a different situation for us now looking back at the old games

[mint osprey]

Imagine if the main game will be in the sea, but you can dock anywhere and will get few procedurally generated km of the shore😬

[mossy moss]

The northern and [eastern] Holds -- Winterhold, Eastmarch, the Rift, and the Pale, known collectively as the Old Holds -- remain more isolated, by geography and choice, and the Nords there still hold true to the old ways.
Going out of the way to state these holds specifically have stuck to the old ways carries the implication that others have not.

[sharp lantern]

It doesn't make reference on faith though, just rulership and traditions.

Again, Nord migrants in Bruma refused to venerate the Nine, and the Imperial Cult priest Jeleen openly states how barely any Nord venerates the Divines.

[fading flame]

Winterhold, Morthal, Dawnstar and Falkreath are like lesser holds. They kinda suck. Like how these cities stayed alive and haven't been wiped out by a bandit raid is beyond me. Winterhold has the college sure and falkreath has walls.

Also there are nine holds in Skyrim, and nine in Oblivion... coincidence i think not...

[sharp lantern]

Falkreath is based, all hail Emperor Zero, Cuhlecain.

[fading flame]

Last I checked, falkreath hold had a walled town that was attack by a dragon. completely destroyed last I check.

[next python]

Heroes & Guards probably.

Morthal probably would've been destroyed or converted by that vampire clan if a hero didn't came in and clean up the vampire mess, to give an example.

[fading flame]

I don't think it really is realistic that one person can clear out an bandit camp?

[next python]

This is Elder Scrolls we're talking about matey, not the real world.

[sharp lantern]

I mean it is what Legate Rikke thinks the LDB is capable of so 🤷‍♂️

[ocean wraith]

It's basically just to prove you're an asset to the imperial army imo and not a burden
Tho idm it, npcs get in the way lol

[proven moss]

This has long been funny to me. How many people have sent us alone to handle jobs that would have been assigned to a half-dozen NPCs or more? So many folks must have wanted us dead lol

[sharp lantern]

I mean, Rikke specifically does deviate from the norm for us.

[ocean wraith]

That is true, we're a true weapon lol

[prime peak]

Or they know a dragon born could do stuff it would take 10+ average joes to do and they don’t want to put more lives at risk than they need to

Where the dwarves human sized or is the armor we wear dwarven “styled” and not necessarily the actual armor they wore

[proven moss]

Sure but for the vast majority of quests, no one identifies you as an amazing hero like the dragonborn. Most of the time you're an unknown stranger

[prime peak]

Well sometimes they say “you took on all those bandits yourself?” Or stuff like that

[woeful gyro]

What are other examples of this aside from heimskr?

[sharp lantern]

Not sure if ESO did so concretely, but Kirkbride was the original author of a lot of Tower lore - and ESO has expanded on it a fair bit.

[woeful gyro]

What exactly is the deal with the towers anyway

Not a very specific question I know but idk much about them

Aren’t they like the pillars holding up reality or something?

Or is that only in MK blog post stuff

[sharp lantern]

Well, it elaborated on them somewhat, but I'm no expert

Really, I only cared about White-Gold and it, possibly, having changed Cyrodiil's climate.

[woeful gyro]

I figure it was tiber septim using CHIM, whatever the heck it really is. Molag baal told vivec that chim was the secret syllable of royalty, tiber says he used the breath of royalty, mythic dawn commentaries talk about a red king who used it to reshape the land

Tiber Septim really said “I’m CHIMming!” And then he CHIMmed all over Cyrodill

[gaunt bear]

The “dwarves” were actually “deep elves”. They were called dwarves by the giants.

[sharp lantern]

I mean, that's exactly why I don't buy into it - Mankar Camoran is a mad cultist.

By contrast, the Ayleids are the creators of Alteration magic, and they already created another climate-altering tower in High Rock, so it fits their knowledge.

[woeful gyro]

It’s just that those three texts converging that way makes it seem narratively unlikely to be false to me

But yeah, none of the three sources are exactly reliable. Mythic dawn is mythic dawn, vivec is notorious for lies and half truths, and heimskr is a raving derelict

[sharp lantern]

That's why I'm more inclined on the Tower theory, it is more supported.

[raw grail]

That's something Atrebus Mede suggests based on his self-admitted vague memory of them

Ultimately, the Towers enforce myths and narratives

The first was Adamantia. It enforced the myth of the Time Dragon (you may know him as Auri-El or Akatosh), made time linear, stabilized Nirn, etc. This is fundamentally where the idea that Towers somehow act as "pillars for reality" is from, although it's less clear if the others do the same. It can be gathered from Aurbic Enigma, Nu-Mantia Intercept, Atrebus, and some other scattered bites of lore that many elves followed Auriel's example and erected Towers of their own to enforce their own myths and narratives. Altmer with Crystal Like Law, Bosmer and Y'ffre with Green Sap, Ayleids with White-Gold.

It's also apparent that the Towers can change the conditions of the Land around them based on the King/People which Rule the Tower. There are two fairly blatant ways we've seen this happen. One is the the extant King/People themselves changing, such as Red Mountain growing restless in response to Vivec in the Morrowind Chapter of ESO. The other is because a new King/People has come to Rule the Tower, such as Cyrodiil being dejungled, whether you follow From the Many-Headed Talos, the theory posited by Lady Cinnabar in Subtropical Cyrodiil, or some combination thereof as I do)

[woeful gyro]

I like your funny words magic man

[raw grail]

Split up for easier reading

[sharp lantern]

I like how King Anumaril tried to turn Valenwood into Cyrodiil 2.0. by attempting to alter Green Sap into a new White-Gold Tower, only for it to fail because Green Sap works differently from what the Ayleids knew.

[raw grail]

I love the idea that the Towers fundamentally assert myths upon the land but not necessarily through the exact same means, such as with Green Sap

They accomplished it different

[sharp lantern]

Now that I think about it, the connection between Elves and Towers is even more pronounced than I thought before.

Snow Throat - Falmer.
Red Mountain - Chimer/Dunmer.
Numidium - Dwemer.
Green Sap - Bosmer.
White-Gold Tower - Ayleids.
Crystal Tower - Altmer.

That's pretty much every elven race having a tower of their own. Barring the Maormer. And I guess the Left-Handed Elves.

[onyx oyster]

oo lore

i have a lot of lore stories for yal

[raw grail]

That's what Nu-Mantia is referring to when it says:

The Aldmer began to split along cultural lines, on how best to spread creation and their parts in it. Each Tower that was built exemplified a separate accordance.

This sundering of purpose is the myth of the "destruction of Aldmeris." Outside of the Dawn, and even then only in the dreamtime of its landscape, there was never a terrestrial homeland of the Elves. "Old Ehlnofey" is a magical ideal of mixed memories of the Dawn.

[raw grail]

Whoop whoop!

[raw grail]

Left-Handed arguably had Orichalc

[fading flame]

I find it really hard to believe if these towers fell the end of the world would come along seems kinda far fetched given... Well... There are more continents and the fact that the nine divines gave their power to make the world... I highly doubt a tower made by empires are what decides source of power and whatnot.

[fading flame]

storm cloaks and imperial first time to join you have to pretty much do this... So in theory... every imperial solider and storm cloak should be able to kill an entire bandit camp or kill a bunch of frost wraiths.

[prime peak]

So they weren’t dwarves like in lord of the rings?

[woeful gyro]

Dwarves and orcs in this series are just different races of elf as opposed to their own thing. Anything that ends with mer is an elf

[prime peak]

So there’s only elves and men?

And the beast folk

Don’t the Argonians have something to do with the hist

Don’t argonian breasts have hist sap or something like that

Would like orcs be considered a different species of elf

Like are redguards a different race of human or species compared to nords

[signal tapir]

[prime peak]

Insane lore

So what if a nord started following malacath would he turn into an orc

I see

Back to moon sugar is it sweet like could you make soda out of it

Is skooma sweet? Skooma is made from moon sugar right

Your ramblings are interesting

The cats grow a certain way based on the moons or something right

Do saber cats come from khajiits

Or vice versa or are there beast folk cats and animal cats

Lunar Lettuce 🥬 🌙

Why are there no mountain lions in Skyrim like in Cyrodiil did the saber cats out compete them?

[slate shoal]

Theory: When the Falmer pilgrims of Auri-El finished their pilgrimage to the holy site of the Chantry of Auri-El, is it possible they mantled Auri-El as they became one with him?

[slate shoal]

in simple terms skyrim is very cold, mountain lions probably don't exist up there due to that + lack of diet being there

[worthy crane]

Cougars prefer North American-like temperate climates.

[prime peak]

North America exists in elder scrolls???

[slate shoal]

I had a dream once, some guy reflected to understand himself, some guy then reflected to understand himself, then they asked for stuff to make them understand with something to reflect off of, and then one of them tricked/convinced the others to make something, and then they got mad cuz they were tricked/didn't like it, and then they fought, and then guy 3 went to guy 2 but he was replaced, guy 3 fights the others with the others

[worthy crane]

The cougar exists in North America. And the cougar is featured in Elder Scrolls. So I have to assume its preferences have not changed unless proven otherwise.

It looks and behaves like the cougar I know in all other respects. Being a vicious killer nuisance and all.

[prime peak]

What about some kind of like snow leopard

Are there any yeti or Sasquatch kind of things in elder scrolls

[worthy crane]

Trolls.

They have a psychic kinda third eye for some reason though

[slate shoal]

elder scrollsified semi gnosticism /j

[prime peak]

Oh right

Maybe so they can still see when they sleep

[slate shoal]

probably has something to do with a more magical connection to Nirn I think

[prime peak]

Is everything magic in the elder scrolls like everything is connected and created through magic

[slate shoal]

essentially kinda

[worthy crane]

Somethin about the blood of Anu and Padomay or something.

[slate shoal]

also don't be afraid to ask what you might feel are "stupid" questions. Asking is a great way to learn, and helps reinforce in your mind that it's something worth knowing and caring about.

[worthy crane]

Somethin about Ehlnofey

[prime peak]

Are you calling my questions stupid

I know ebony is some gods blood that squirted everywhere right

[slate shoal]

not at all, just wanted to let you know lol
your questions are valid and the only stupid stuff is people who are pointlessly supremacist

[slate shoal]

the earf bones 🗣️🗣️🗣️

[worthy crane]

The blood of Lorkhan, or maybe Nirn, maybe they're the same, maybe the "child" of anu. This stuff is little more than vague myth in game.

Ebony is probably just a rock in reality

A special rock, like Titanium is to us. Rare because it can only be made from exploding stars.

[slate shoal]

ebony is most likely just metal that is quite powerful and strong, to the point cultures developed their own myth around it that might be based in reality

[prime peak]

Oh ok my bad lol

[worthy crane]

In that sense one can romanticize Titanium as the "blood of gods" if I imagine a star to be a "god"

[prime peak]

Well gods do exist tho and it seems they apparently poop out people and stuff

[worthy crane]

All of that being said Lorkhan's still beating heart is very much real soo....... maybe there really is truth to it.

[prime peak]

I wouldn’t be surprised if blood turned into metal if poop turned into sentient beings

[slate shoal]

Understand that most religious concepts are wrapped in metaphor and aren't usually literal

Magnus helping make Nirn is probably true, but Vivec and how he got Muatra probably isn't literal

[worthy crane]

oh yeah? you think blue and yellow man was being metaphorical about all the stuff he described in his own 36 lessons about the Molag Bal stuff?

God I hope he was being metaphorical actually

[prime peak]

Like does everything have magical properties or is alchemy all science 🧪

Is magic like the force as in it flows through all living things

[worthy crane]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic

[slate shoal]

his whole thing with the books is they're not completely literal and they're a confession to the murder of Nerevar possibly

[worthy crane]

Oh I did realize that about ten books in, One would hope most of it isn't literal.

[slate shoal]

the books spell out FOUL MURDER if I remember correctly

[worthy crane]

big man lost me at the milk finger

Well science is just a methodology for understanding. So long as you follow the method, magic can be learned scientifically.

[slate shoal]

apparently shouts were tonal magic originally until sloprim retconned it

[prime peak]

Science is an illusion?

[worthy crane]

If the universe works on the principles of magic, then science is understanding the rules of magic.

[prime peak]

And illusion is magic!

[slate shoal]

my hot take is that the Falmer were victims of the Atmoran horde even with the slaughter of Saarthal

[slate shoal]

It was probably Religious conflict since it spurred the Direnni to refer to Shor as Sheor

[worthy crane]

I'd think of magic as the same as any other force. Gravity. Magnetisim. Nuclear bonds. Compound Interest.

All part of physics

[slate shoal]

Gravity is one of those things set during the creation of Nirn, hence why Alteration lets you manipulate it and levitate

also the schools aren't a definitive thing canonically, they're just organized stuff by mortals

Mortals > Anuic souls
Daedra don't have these souls

[worthy crane]

The guilds don't operate very scientifically either.

But they could.

[slate shoal]

science in the modern human definition doesn't exist as it's not necessary

cussword moment

[worthy crane]

Without science alchemy wouldn't have moved onto chemistry

From "vibes" to actual understanding and being able to make stuff work

[slate shoal]

alchemy is a magical thing in the elder scrolls tbf

it functions differently than the chemicals we have irl

[worthy crane]

Alchemy is an actual science in Elder Scrolls I'd say. Cuz it works.

All I'm saying is the mage educational system be lacking. Too much screwing around and blowing themselves up.

Look at Winterhold man

They gotta be more professional and serious

[slate shoal]

we don't know what caused the collapse I thought

[worthy crane]

Bet everything I own it was freshmen

[slate shoal]

the college of Winterhold is a pathetic example of magic as the nords generally hate it

[worthy crane]

That guy in the Skingrad wine cellar is pretty close.

Until the whole business in the Skyrim underground

[slate shoal]

the urge to ascend in veneration of Auri-El

[worthy crane]

That kinda urge gets you on a booby trapped throne with the wrong crown on your cranium

[prime peak]

So is reproduction magic instead of science

I guess I can see how that could kinda make some sense

So is S E X not love? If that seems to be a dibela thing

And she is the beauty goddess I think

[worthy crane]

They're both goddesses of love. One is marriage and motherly love. The other is beauty and lust.

[prime peak]

Who’s the god of fatherly love

Or is that also Mara

[slate shoal]

nah there's genetic stuff to it

racial phylogeny though magic can influence it I think

also don't take racial phylogeny as pure truth

[worthy crane]

You're good at trolling

[slate shoal]

tbf it's a valid question probably

[worthy crane]

That's what makes him good at it, I'm almost positive he's been trolling for hours but it's entertaining anyways

[worthy crane]

How does Azura turning the chimer blue work into that

[slate shoal]

theres interpretations to why she did this

some like me believe it was to make them resemble her more, a reminder to the tribunal that the Dunmer are HER people, not theirs

[worthy crane]

I daresay that was some magic influence lol

[slate shoal]

absolutely yeah

this was also at a time before the coldharbour pact, so the daedra were able to exert their power on Nirn more often and in stronger manners

[worthy crane]

I can only imagine the amount of cheese for everyone

[slate shoal]

I feel like this type of humor ultimately limits the understanding of sheogorath to this

[worthy crane]

I don't understand him in the slightest. How can one understand madness?

[prime peak]

Or maybe Mara is the family love godess and dibela is romantic

[worthy crane]

Yes, that's better than what I said. You used better words. My words aren't great

[slate shoal]

that's the point

[worthy crane]

I excluded fatherly love because my father doesn't love me

[worthy crane]

I only know what I see and sometimes that's literally raining cats and dogs. It depends on the day really

[slate shoal]

||https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mara|| ||https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dibella||

[worthy crane]

I know the two ladies

[slate shoal]

it's for @prime peak to read about them

[worthy crane]

Oh

[slate shoal]

I don't usually care about the imperial gods as I don't find myself a fan of imperials or Nords usually

I don't like genociders and slavers.

[worthy crane]

I only worship the Nine, citizen

[slate shoal]

I worship the 5 personally but primarily Auri-El

[worthy crane]

You can also low-key find me at that Boethiah shrine but don't tell anyone

[slate shoal]

which one though

[worthy crane]

Nice try guardsman

[slate shoal]

love me snow elves, love Nords, love everyone, simple as

[prime peak]

Thx u

[slate shoal]

Just egging people on to show rather than tell. Want to bring them back? Do it well enough and they're back.

doing this with the snow elves until we see them return en masse to the elder scrolls

pure monks vs a corruption of Auri-El faith /j

[raw grail]

Mara is both familial and romantic. Dibella is primarily love and sex by way of their beauty

She is beauty, which includes art, love, lovemaking, the human form, nature, whatever.

Mara is more about the bonds between people. Love, compassion, affection, marriage

Other gods have connections to sex through other lenses. Mephala as a way of achieving what you want, effectively manipulation. Sanguine as hedonism, pleasure seeking, urge fulfillment. Etcetcetc

[high quartz]

i wonder what canonically the dragonborns setup would actually be like in the trailers/media you see a nord clad in full iron armour but i wonder what his actual skills/perks are at the start of the game

[raw grail]

Just in case it needs to be pointed out, it should be remembered that promotional material (e.g. Trailer
Dragonborn) is not lore unless attributed to a character (e.g. Esbern recounting his dream, or a quote cited as Phrastus of Elinhir's)

Most TES protagonists, including LDB, are also "Prisoners". These are basically entities who are somewhat variable in fate: they can be any gender, race, build... Imagine if you had many parallel timelines, and most people are largely the same between timelines. LDB does not have a canonical build, because that is left open for you to decide based on your playthrough(s)

With THAT out of the way, I think warrior is most thematically resonant for the whole Shor v Alduin thing going on

Maybe leaning more sword than war axe/battle axe or mace/warhammer. Idk whether sword and board or great sword

[slate shoal]

the knowledge of the world is shown to us by Bethesda but to gleam true knowledge is ours to divine and seek

[woeful gyro]

To be fair, there is a moon phase that produces khajit known as Ohmes, which are almost indistinguishable from Bosmer

[slate shoal]

Ooze -> Aldmer -> Bosmer -> some became Khajiit and Jephre/Yffre took the rest from Azura

how it feels to actually be achieving CHIM irl in the lucid near dream state holding that feeling

[woeful gyro]

Yeah some moons produce quadrupedal khajit. There pahmar which are basically tigers, and senche which are often referred to as battle cats which other khajit ride into battle

Also alfiqs which are identical to housecats but smart and really good at magic

[slate shoal]

a fair summarization of it

[mossy moss]

What do you mean by Pahmar are basically tigers? They’re a bipedal furstock.

[woeful gyro]

Aren’t they born under a moon which is associated with large quadrupeds?

[mossy moss]

Nope, they’re bipedal. Senche(-raht) and Alfiq(-raht) are the only quadrupedal furstocks.

[slate shoal]

Here's my weird hot take

[mossy moss]

We see Pahmar in ESO.

[slate shoal]

I think modern Nords are a lot more toned down about their anti elfism at times and are growing to be better

it takes an aggressor actively poking the bear and a massive war to bring that back and even then

plus with the Nords giving solstheim to Dunmer, people once one of their main enemies

I think when we see the snow elves reappear, the Nords will have conflict but ultimately be better than their ancestors were

[mossy moss]

Hmm… I don’t agree because I think the Nords xenophobia has always stemmed from a lack of cultural integration. We see this in full effect in Skyrim.

Niranye has found acceptance in Windhelm because she has accepted the Nordic way of life and seeks to appease them. The Dunmer still find themselves in conflict because they refuse to assimilate.

[mossy moss]

This was done out of practicality tbf. The Dunmer refugees were already flooding Solstheim, and the only two options were going to war or letting them have it.

[slate shoal]

the Nords are stubborn but I think at the end of the day they're good people

[raw grail]

This was the case in Tamriel Rebuilt's concept art before ESO gave us more canon Furstock appearances, based on a comment which called Pahmar tiger-like

ESO took this to mean bipedal, giant tiger person. TR took this to mean quadrupedal, giant tiger

[woeful gyro]

Ah my mistake I know nothing about eso

[mint osprey]

i think in ESO moon phases are synchronized which doesn't allow half of kajits breeds to exist

i know it is just a design mistake but still funny

[slate shoal]

bruh

[wanton sand]

I particularly like the depiction in TES: Legends which kind of implies they can walk a little like some apes

I imagine for ESO the issue is less the design and more that they wouldn't want to make a unique rig for the pahmar when the regular khajiit one they already had would do

[prime peak]

Is there a dog race

[proven moss]

Basically all we have on the Pahmar prior to ESO:

When Masser is full and Secunda is new, the Pahmar is born. They are like what you would call a “tiger.”
When Masser is full and Secunda is waning, the Pahmar-raht is born. They are like the Pahmar, but larger and more dangerous.

• Interview with Three Booksellers (2001)

The Senche and Senche-raht are forms of Khajiit. Imperials call them “tigers,” as their fur appears striped like a “tiger.” Imperials who served in the Legions call them “Battlecats.” A poor name, but Jobasha does not deny the Senche’s use in battle.
Senche stand taller than a man and can weigh as much as twenty men. The Senche-raht, naturally, are larger still and stand taller than two men and can weigh more than than fifty men. They are not built like “tigers,” what Jobasha would call an Alfiq or Alfiq-raht. Nor do Senche move like “tigers.” They walk on their heels, not their toes as do other Khajiit. They can outrun Jobasha, but they cannot turn quickly like an Alfiq or Pahmar.

• Douglas Goodall (2001)

Along with them were small groups of archers and wizards, including the dreaded Alfiq, mounted on Senche and Pahmar-raht who used similar tactics, charging into range, releasing their arrows or spells, and then fleeing.

• Mixed Unit Tactics v4

So it's vague and confusing to what the Pahmar look like. Goodall says it's the Senche that look like tigers, not (presumably) the Pahmar.

And while being described as mounts in Mixed Unit Tactics, the Senche are described as plantigrade which kinda suggests they're bipedal

(Mixed Unit Tactics, btw, was authored by Goodall)

[proven moss]

There are the extinct vulpine race of Black Marsh, the Lilmothiit. That's about as close as we get.

[woeful gyro]

Who extincted them

[proven moss]

The Khahaten Flu

[slate shoal]

somewhat, lilmothiit but the khahaten flu wiped them out basically completely

they were intended to be a playable race for ESO if I remember correctly

[prime peak]

Nooo RIP dog

[slate shoal]

tbf with the elder scrolls only the dwemer are guaranteed dead

the Dwemer are dead until someone can make a good enough excuse for them to return

[prime peak]

“Somehow the Dwemer returned!”

[woeful gyro]

It feels unlikely to me that we’ll ever see the dwemer again