elder-scrolls-lore

[robust lintel]

Heh, I think the seas of Apocrypha enjoy fishing for us

[toxic canopy]

The acid water when i use the power of azidahls boots:

[robust lintel]

Fishes happy to see me when I go fishing
https://media3.giphy.com/media/wJt98DnjJHbJW46KsA/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b952lcoc72fyhv8nlx13465o0d9e2gaffkrixkgakyoe&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[slate shoal]

Azura wants your love and rewards her faithful with visions

she's the kindest arguably to hers as well, don't betray her though

[loud thunder]

Someone on Reddit just said Meridia is as bad as Molag Bal and I'm just like "dude... Daughters of Cold Harbor".

Like, none of the Daedra are GOOD people, but there is definitely a spectrum and Bal is at the far end of that spectrum.

[unkempt tide]

It'd be best if we move on from this topic chat, it's not suitable for the server

[robust lintel]

Mudcrabs are much meaner than any daedra, that's for sure, anyhow...

[brisk perch]

So, argonians had power armor, wonder what the lore implications are of that.

[glacial scarab]

Stuff we already know. That TES does what it wants with tech.
Like we already have Imperial Ironclads, airships and filing cabinets so Argonian Power armour isn't the that odd

[slate shoal]

haven't there been fleets to space (mentioned in the pocket guide to the empire I believe)

[upper field]

Funny how we have these tech enhancements from different races and the only tech that's prominent is Dwemer tech.

[clever goblet]

Alinor Sunbirds n’ stuff

[slate shoal]

is it possible snow elf settlements yet remain in the Jeralls, Druadach, or Velothi mountains?

[slate shoal]

one book describes Nords genociding their way down to riften, and there is ancient Falmeri ruins under fort Greenwall, it wouldn't be a stretch for some to remain in the cold mountains nearby

[slate shoal]

I like how snow elves have such pale white skin that their hands, feet and ears glow pinkish red as though they were frostbitten, and yet all descriptions imply the cold doesn't bother them

[glacial scarab]

VAlinor and its swanboats.

[slate shoal]

someone suggested Falmer text looks quite like tibetan calligraphy,which would fit the life style and clothing styles the Falmer may have had

[cold spear]

Hey, I don't really lurk or post here but I've seen one too many annoying instances of lie-profiteering in places and I just want to spread some counter-evidence for consideration

The Red Year was Kirk's (and Kurt's) https://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Michael_Kirkbride's_Posts

And Morrowind goes boom because I am a vain child who doesn't like to share his toys.

[karmic rose]

Would it be like accurate for a Redguard to wear something akin to samurai armor? Weren't the Yokudans Japanese-inspired?

[cold spear]

In culture definitely, but I'm not sure about aesthetics

[karmic rose]

Dang...

[void kayak]

Are Goblins capable of speech?

[karmic rose]

Reiklings are somewhat capable, as evidenced in the Thirsk Mead Hall incident

Reiklings are goblin adjacent

[raw grail]

I mean... Anyone can wear any armor. The questions are: why are they trained in using it? How did they get it? Is it significant to them, and why?

While Yokudans and Redguards have Japanese inspiration, most of the Japanese arms and armor on Tamriel are Akaviri in origin, especially Tsaesci. The biggest remnant of that is the Blades, but we get quite a bit of Akaviri influences in Nibenay, some parts of Elsweyr (e.g. Rimmen), and apparently Morrowind going based off of equipment available in the game

Whenever I want to make someone who uses Tsaesci-inspired equipment, usually the easiest route I find are being a Blade, or someone trained or raised by one

Or Dragonguard in ESO since the Blades don't exist yet

[cold spear]

Aesthetics also changes plenty game-to-game. Oblivon-Skyrim Imperial arms is a common example, older Altmer (concept) arts also has East Asian styling (I don't remember if it's pre or post Redguard's PGE1), Orsimer has Samurai-looking armour in Morrowind, katana's been a thing since Arena

That said, the sensibility is more of a holdover from back when it was common in fantasy to have a lot of aesthetics and genre from all over the place in one setting. Might and Magic, Riftwar, etc. had things from The Dark Lords™️ to East-Asian even Sci-Fi in the case of Might and Magic

More tangent: not many popular western-based fantasy worlds today have that sort of range. I dare say The Elder Scrolls is the only western blockbuster thing to have it in forefront (Dwemer primarily) for roleplaying games. Pathfinder has it but differs from TES in that it's not separated by time or obscurity (i.e. TES has most of the more advanced stuff in the earlier Eras, see ESO's 2E for example). I'm not sure if Forgotten Realms still presents them and to what extent

Eastern-based is easy. Final Fantasy has scifi stuff plenty across its different settings, FF XIII has it, and since FF I airships existed

[karmic rose]

I did go the Blade route there

[loud thunder]

I know the term "anchor being" is tossed around in jest a lot, but Uriel Septim may actually be the linchpin of the Elder Scrolls universe. The first 3 games all center around him holding the Empire together. The fourth game is about his death sending all of Nirn spiraling into the Oblivion Crisis, which caused the weakening of the Empire, the Aldmeri Dominion, the Great War, possibly the earthquake in Winterhold and the Eruption of Red Mountain, and the subsequent Stormcloak Rebellion.

200 years later, and we are still REELING from his death.

[raw grail]

Katanas appearing elsewhere doesn't make it not an Akaviri weapon. E.g., claymores appear throughout TES, but they're Bretonic in origin as of Morrowind dialogue. It may not have been the idea at the time (although Ted Peterson has quotes talking about katanas being Akaviri), but that's one of the cool ways that newer lore and older lore interact with one another. Something new can put something old in a new light

On the appearance of the Tsaesci, and the "truths" in fictional Tamrielic writings (2004-05-07)    Edit

I never saw a Tsaesci
I never hope to see one,
But I can tell you this right now:
I'd rather see than be one.

Carlovac Townway, the author of 2920, though quite a scholar, never saw a Tsaeci or any other Akavari (of which there are many, as has been noted) either. He attempted to write a historically accurate piece of fiction. I'd compare him and Waughin Jarth and a few other Tamrielic authors to writers like Sharon Kay Penman, who write meticulously researched historical fiction. Everything is true, but there's plenty of dramatic license, and, in this case, he hedged his bets with his description of the Potentates.

To the people of Tamriel during the interregnum, the Potentates were snakes. But, it must be reasoned, they knew how to use their native weaponry, katanas and wakizashis and so on. Does that mean they must have had at least arms to use them? Townway reasoned yes.

Are Akavari Asians? Certainly not. Nirn is not earth, so there is no Tamriel = Europe, Akavir = Asia, Yokuda = Africa, Pyandonea = Australia, or any other direct comparisons.

That said, we, the developers and ex-developers, who translate Tamrielic culture into a thing understandable by Earth dwellers, often use familiar words and concepts which carry with them some additional baggage. There are, for example, in Tamriel, slightly curved, single edged swords which are considered among the finest blades in existence. The easiest word to use to describe this is "katana." As in all translations, it conveys the essential meaning of the thing, but one shouldn't confuse the makers of the katana with the Japanese any more than one should assume that the origins of the Tamrielic claymore are Scottish.

Of course, none of this is to say that mod-makers shouldn't include Asian characters who are said to be from Akavir. Is it "true" to the lore? No. Is it contradictory to the lore? No again.

[cold spear]

No I meant that out-of-world, IRL, East-Asian influences and the like in the capacity to influence aesthetics does not necessarily mean geographical or specific cultural box, as shown in the games themselves the aesthetics belonging to certain things change from game to game

But yes like the quote said, lack of specifics simply means more opportunity to make your own for roleplaying

[raw grail]

Ah, yeah, that's fair. I was looking at the mention of katanas being a thing since Arena, art of an Altmer with a katana, etc, rather than like Orcish armor resembling some Japanese armor for instance, which is a separate situation imo

Like katanas, a more specific and narrow example of Japanese influence, are explicitly and almost exclusively inspired by Tsaesci in-universe, but going back to what you're saying, that doesn't mean every instance of Japanese inspiration should be expected to be Tsaesci. These things don't follow the same cultural lines in-universe

[loud thunder]

That was literally my first introduction to High Elves was that cool art of a lady in a kimono holding a katana.

[raw grail]

That art more or less came with Oblivion

[raw grail]

I'm curious what concept art you're talking about actually, now that I think about it. When you mentioned older Altmer art I assumed you were referring to the PGE3 image of an Altmer holding a katana

But that doesn't make sense cuz it's not concept art

[cold spear]

Right that was PGE3, oops

[raw grail]

Oh, that was what you were talking about, okay. I thought I was just thinking of the wrong one

[upper field]

So curious about something. Is it possible for two versions of the same deity to exist at some point? One example I'm thinking is Akatosh, who also goes by Auri-el to the elven populace. Normally I'd dismiss this, but the existence of Auri-el's bow and shield made me wonder.

[raw grail]

That's a very contentious subject!

I personally would argue yes. Some other people I know and whose opinions I very much respect and know are well educated on TES disagree, and with fair reason to do so. You can get different answers depending on what you think of certain perspectives and how you consider certain evidence we have at our disposal. The way I see it, when Nirn and Mundus were created, the Aedra (to use the elven term) sacrificed themselves for the world, and so opened themselves up to reflection and interpretation by their children/creation, mortals

[upper field]

That explains some of the other aspects, like Lorkhan being Shor (to the Nords) and Sheor (to the Bretons) or Kynareth being Kyne to the Nords. Funny how the same thing can't quite be said for the Daedra.

[raw grail]

The way I see it, that's largely because they didn't sacrifice themselves for Nirn, although some Daedra have a more complicated relationship with Nirn and mortals (primarily see the Khajiiti and Reachfolk pantheons)

[fair zephyr]

Are we the bad guys in Skyrim

If we kill alduin so he can be remade to come back and destroy the universe

[gaunt bear]

That’s up to divine father Akatosh.

[slate shoal]

moral argument but probably not, less you join the vile vampires or the companions /hj

[upper field]

The Companions themselves aren't evil. It's just that a few members got oh too comfy being Hircine's lap dog.

[fair zephyr]

No matter who the Dragonborn sells his/her soul to they will go back to akatosh regardless right because isn’t he the god of gods

[glacial scarab]

Well not exactly.

We see some Dragonborns in Sovngarde (generic line from a hero of Sovngarde). So we can see that their souls don't go to Aka.

[gaunt bear]

Not all of them do.

[upper field]

I wasn't referring to the PC. I meant more Aela and Skyor.

[clever goblet]

Still wondering where exactly this assumption keeps coming from

[upper field]

Honestly it's funny to think about when the PC becomes Champion to multiple Daedric Princes while also a vampire/werewolf.

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/calculating-puzzled-math-confused-confused-look-gif-14677181

[fair zephyr]

If I sell my soul to every divine/prince possible when I die do they all fight over it

[upper field]

Most likely.

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/banzai-betting-ends-place-your-bets-now-gamble-japanese-gif-26539684

Who’s gonna get it?!

[twin kernel]

I just learned that Forsworn are their own race

[slate shoal]

what the oblivion ESO lol

[raw grail]

Well, no, they're a faction

They're a rebellion of sorts. The race you're thinking of is likely Reachfolk

[gaunt bear]

... so?

[twin kernel]

Wait, I know you

I made a mistake
You're right, I heard the being called that more often. But yeah I didn't realize they were their own race

[raw grail]

That's super understandable! They're listed as Bretons in game

[twin kernel]

So it's safe to assume Skyrim is not the only province with a "undiscovered/not mentioned" human race?

I literally never heard of any other human races aside Nord Imperial and Redguard (idk if Breton counts)
From Oblivions narrative

[raw grail]

What?

[raw grail]

Oh you're talking about Reachfolk being unmentioned

Reachfolk were first mentioned in PGE1

They're about as old as Imperials, from an irl perspective

[twin kernel]

Can you iterate what PGE1 is?

[raw grail]

Other races of humans have also been mentioned, mostly various Nedic groups, like the Keptu, or Orma

[raw grail]

PGE1 is the Pocket Guide to the Empire, v1. It was a booklet released with Redguard. It established a lot of modern lore and is often thought of, alongside the game it came with, as the turning point between Daggerfall and Morrowind's take on the franchise

It was written during Tiber Septim's reign

You may be familiar with Old Hroldan, and how Tiber besieged it? That was in a war against Reachfolk

[twin kernel]

I'm not all that familiar with it but the name seems familiar

[raw grail]

Do you remember ever meeting the Ghost of Hroldan in Skyrim?

He spawns in the Old Hroldan inn, recognizes you as Hjalti, sends you on a quest to retrieve Hjalti's sword

[twin kernel]

I gotta look into that, I never did that one

Hm alright, I got a question. What exactly (other than how they age) makes Man and Myr races differently.
I mean they both use magicka and seem to be on the same level of consciousness

Orgin story aside. I know Myr split off from Aldmer, not sure about humans.

[raw grail]

Culture and appearance are the main differences, broadly speaking

Altmer have a possible genetic predisposition toward magic because of selective breeding and eugenics on Summerset

Otherwise they're largely pretty similar, physiologically

Some elves, especially traditional Altmer, might tell you humans don't have a divine spark and so can't ascend to godhood

What? I don't think I said anything wrong

Ain't no way

[twin kernel]

Chim?

No that's not censored

[signal tapir]

I wouldn’t keep saying the banned word, Dyno will mute you

[raw grail]

I was trying to figure out what word it was so I could avoid it. I'm shocked it's banned, considering it's hard to talk about TES responsibly while avoiding the topic

[raw grail]

That they're basically intelligent animals. But, y'know, some people be prejudiced against other races

[twin kernel]

Do humans think they have the "Devine spark" whatever event that is

[raw grail]

I don't think they put as much importance in the concept in the first place

[twin kernel]

So it might be true

I would think if they had it,it would be more prevalent/important

[raw grail]

I find it very unlikely

After all, we know humans can ascend. The conclusion reached on the basis that mortals don't have divine sparks is incorrect, so it's hard to say that the presupposition itself is evidenced

[twin kernel]

Myr = made directly by gods
Man/beast = made by biological events on Nirn
Argonian = Hist trees, and could there be different types of argonian depending on where the hyst is

These are all in question format

[raw grail]

They were all made directly by gods, is the issue

[twin kernel]

Oh I found the word

[raw grail]

Argonians included. They were originally useful lizards, and animals - like all other life native to Nirn - were made by the gods

[raw grail]

Yeah, it's ridiculous, but I've long since accepted this server is like that so

[twin kernel]

Alr well all of this is steming from the Reachfolk subject.
I'm a little annoyed we can't play as them but oh well.
Anyways, I guess it should be completely fine for me to make new races of humans for a mod. Beastfolk too but idk if myr are on the table

[raw grail]

Honestly best bet is to make a Reachfolk with warpaint and give em a reachfolk name

[twin kernel]

Yeah but they will still be hostile to you

[raw grail]

Only forsworn

Not all Reachfolk are forsworn. Most "Bretons" in Skyrim's Reach are actually Reachfolk

[twin kernel]

Woah!

[raw grail]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ainethach

This guy for example. Cosnach as well

You can usually tell by name

They also have war paints more often than Bretons I think?

[twin kernel]

Crazy. Kinda funny how I thought the main plot of the story was the imperial vs storm cloak civil conflic, escalated by dragon. In reality the main plot is about how Skyrim is a land of constant conquest of one race over another

[glacial scarab]

Breton "war paint" in TES5 is used on Reachmen so i'd imagine it's Reachmen.

There's only 1 Breton in Markarth if I recall and he's the Castle cook with the rest being Reachfolk/Reachmen

[twin kernel]

How do stormclucks feel about reachmen? Their motives have parallels

[glacial scarab]

Probably not positively. Ulfric did literally cause their current situation

[raw grail]

Aye. The Forsworn only exist as a faction because of the "Markarth Incident"

[sharp kraken]

It seems to me that Sheogorath isn’t actually insane

He is always fully aware of his actions and what he does, sure he is definitely suffering from some sort of mental illness but he is in complete control of himself and has completely perfect perception of everything that happened

So he therefore isn’t insane which is odd to me, but not counterintuitive to his character

Therefore, he isn’t insane

[upper field]

I mean even he isn't immune to madness as shown in Legends.

[upper inlet]

Maybe he's the only sane being in a universe of madness and hence why everyone thinks he's insane.

[sharp kraken]

Could you provide the exact moment of that please?

[dark palm]

Reading through some of the new ESO expansion lore

Why does it kinda seem like the Argonians of Solstice have similar roles as the Druids in the High Isle area

[gaunt bear]

This is a question for the lore-heads here, and it’s for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

What would Hermaeus Mora (Herma-Mora, for those who prefer it that way) think, personally, of the Inquisition? Especially their overarching goal of “restoring order to the chaos”?

I’m asking because, despite the answer for this, Herma-Mora will respect the Inquisitor because he accomplished something truly impressive: he traveled a year forward into the future, learned Corypheus’ plans (because he already did them), then traveled back in time with that knowledge to the exact place where he left it.

[balmy salmon]

He'd probably watch them closely because of the massive secrets that the Inquisition seeks out and uncovers.

[gaunt bear]

Yes, but would he be friendly or antagonistic toward them if he didn’t have great respect towards the Inquisitor for distorting time (which eluded even the greatest Dwemer scholars).

[gaunt bear]

Here’s another thing for the lore-heads, though it’s not exactly the same:

Herma-Mora: * impales Corypheus * Yes. Yes! YES!!! At long last, the secrets of Dumat’s Priesthood is finally mine!

Corypheus: N-no! Dumat! H-help me!

Herma Mora: Dumat was the Archdemon of the First Blight (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Dumat||). He. Is. Dead.

Corypheus: … * his mind and soul now trapped in Apocrypha *

Herma Mora: * speaking to both the Inquisitor and the Last Dragonborn * You, mortals. You have proven yourself to be worthy tools. Now you shall be rewarded: Corypheus will never escape his imprisonment in Apocrypha.

Inquisitor: * skeptically * Promise?

Herma Mora: I am as true to my word as fate and as inevitable as the march of time. Corypheus will never escape.

(Frankly, I prefer this to “true to my word as destiny and inevitable as fate” because, it could just be me, but “destiny” and “fate” sound kind of redundant).

[abstract arrow]

Question: Why was there a retcon turning the kingdoms of cyrodiil into counties as they appear in Oblivion? In Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition, a booklet included in the game manual for the Redguard game. there's mention of a king of Anvil.

[balmy salmon]

The king of Anvil mentioned in the PGE 1E wasn't a contemporary ruler when the guide was written, he was a historical figure from the late First Era back when Anvil was part of the Colovian Estates.

The Remanada also mentions Anvil having kings back in that time period, and Rislav the Righteous discusses how Skingrad and Kvatch were ruled by kings earlier in the First Era, so it's pretty well-established in TES IV's lore that during the First Era, the Colovian counties were petty kingdoms.

[glacial scarab]

Also PGE1, Remanada and Rislav are outside of an Empire. Not during one

Though I wished they didn't bother with "Counts" within an Empire. Should've used Governors and then used Kings for times outside of an Empire. But that's the TES issue of Empire writing.

[balmy salmon]

It makes sense that during times of peace, the Empire leaves the day-to-day running of Cyrodiil to the established aristocracy instead of provisional military governors.

[glacial scarab]

Not really. It just begs the question of if there's even provinces of the Empire.

Might as well say everything is a client state to the High Kingdom of the Imperial City.

Even in peace time you still have your provincial governors in the provinces because it's about Imperial control of their own Empire

[balmy salmon]

From what I've seen, the Empire's governors aren't provincial civil servants, they're military officers running things during or shortly after wartime while the Empire sorts out civil rulership.

[glacial scarab]

We don't even know that because it was PGE1 and then a time skip to where TES just completely gave up on the Empires administration

[balmy salmon]

But even in pre-TES IV games we saw how provinces outside Cyrodiil were, at the tail end of the Third Era, ruled by Empire-approved kings, dukes, and counts, so there's already precedent for how Cyrodiil was run.

In the case of Morrowind, the system of kings and dukes was imposed by the Empire.

But yes, the provinces of Cyrodiil don't get any special treatment, and it's likely that for a good part of the Empire's history, Solitude had more sway with the highest echelons of the Empire than Cyrodiil's own provinces

[glacial scarab]

TES3 was set up to work around the armistice. Hence forcing a King to work into the Great Council and the Dukes as totally no Governors.

TES4 just gave up entirely on Cyrodiil. Which is why Colovians and Nibenese are not a thing and why everything is Feudal.

Effectively there is no Province of the Empire. Just client states which is why we see Nordic Jarls and a Nordic High King for Skyrim

[glacial scarab]

And as far as TES goes the Empire appoints no one.
The Counts, Jarls, Kings were all native and there before the "Empire".

[balmy salmon]

They still have positions like magistrates, tax collectors, and census takers, but other than that, yeah, the Empire lets the provincial aristocracies run things, with the implication that they sometimes influence the process to make sure whoever inherits the local throne is loyal to them.

Even as far back as the PGE 1E, it's mentioned that Colovia ran itself during the Alessian Empire.

[glacial scarab]

Colovia was barely apart of the Alessian Empire.

They barely interact with thrones. They're only bothering with Skyrim because of the independence movement by Ulfric a few months prior to the start of the game.

All those positions are local because there's no Empire control. The Client States run themselves because they barely have any control over them.

[balmy salmon]

As it was pointed out more than once, as of the Fourth Era, the Moot has become a formality to install a typically Empire-loyal Jarl of Solitude onto the throne.

Which is why Ulfric believes that Torygg had no right being High King.

[glacial scarab]

Torygg has right to the throne even under Nordic rule.

Because the moot follows the line of succession.

It's when the line is broken be it bastardry or the line dying off do people get to choose others

Even with TES5 they just show the Empire barely is a thing that matters and that the Moot followed the Nordic way

[balmy salmon]

Most of the "Imperial" positions in Morrowind- magistrates, tax collectors, etc- in Morrowind are filled by Imperials.

Edit: Admittedly, Morrowind is probably a special case because the Dunmer don't really care for to enforcing Imperial laws and taxes.

[upper inlet]

Was having fun with chatgpt going over lore and connections in TES Lore. Padomay>Sithis>Lorkhan>Shor.

[north basin]

The Empire is a hodgepodge of administrative government, vassalage relationships and indigenous government. For instance, the senior military official on Vvardenfell, the Imperial-minted Duke of Vvardenfell and the most powerful noble of the most powerful house on Vvardenfell are three separate people.
In Cyrodiil, I think we should interpret the counts through the Latin root word comes, or Companion (of the Emperor). While the Roman Empire (in my opinion) has limited applicability to understanding the Cyrodiilic Empire, I think this is an exception. The counts are somewhere between the emperor's retinue in a vassalage system (I think in an allusion to the Companions of Ysgramor) and notionally being his professional senior military officers.
One thing which I find relatively less-good about Oblivion is the lack of presence of the Imperial court or administrative state in the Imperial City. I tend to read this as the Empire having relatively little state capacity and being highly decentralized.

That being said, the Empire is trying to centralize. Part of this is presenting Imperial law as a superior alternative to traditional local law.

[north basin]

Further, I think the Empire uses the guilds to make up for a lack of state capacity. Notionally, the emperor has a monopoly on magical teaching. But the state capacity isn't there, so this monopoly is leased out to the Mages' Guild. The Legion is overstretched, so the Fighters' Guild takes on law and order tasks. There are very few Blades, so they take help from the Theives' Guild in exchange for turning a blind eye.

[loud thunder]

Odd question, but has Azura done anything particularly evil?

[heady wave]

A little, I think. According to UESP, she's allied with Molag Bal in Daggerfall's factions at start (but those affiliations change randomly [every month i think?] and don't really mean much). Her followers describe her as "cruel but wise," some of her followers are completely mentally dominated by her and are virtual slaves, and she supposedly introduced Moon Sugar to the Khajiit. She also did that... whole thing with the Chimer -> Dunmer curse.

The "evil" of some of those things I think are up to interpretation, isn't Moon Sugar basically a curse and extremely addictive for non-Khajiit? I'm not too knowledgeable on this end.

[loud thunder]

Did the Dunmer transformation come with any side effects?

[heady wave]

don't think so? i did a quick scan of the Chimer page and the transformation was apparently considered a "gift" or at least a celebratory mark of the Tribunal's ascension.

[loud thunder]

Ok. Because I was thinking about who the least evil Daedric Prince is, and it's probably Azura.

[heady wave]

she's generally painted that way

[loud thunder]

Who's that new girl? The one I've only seen in Bethesda's shop as a statue?

[slate shoal]

my friend and I are comparing snow elf wayshrines to Buddhist architecture and the similarities are interesting, here's an example

this and the appearance of their language is very similar to tibetan stuff, I think the Falmer are influenced by tibetan buddhists

(oh my Nords killing a bunch of faithful people and colonizong their land how honorable)

[upper field]

Something she could be attributed to as "evil" is how she only told her devolt followers about the Red Year before it happened, allowing those Dunmer to flee before Morrowind got nuked by Red Mountain.

[upper inlet]

No daedric prince is inherently evil, they're amoral beings. Think of it like this, does the whale concern itself with the lamentations of the kelp that it swallows? I'm the words of Death from supernatural "imagine if an amoeba sat your table and started getting snarky, to a thing like me a thing like you is wholly insignificant"

That said all daedric princess have 1 or 2 aspect we would consider less than stellar.

Azura for example is the reason the khajiit look like beasts and less like their bosmer cousins. She will revive a servant to serve her centuries after it has died. She has no problems with using necromancy of it serves her purposes.

All daedric princess are self serving in that regard.

[upper field]

Yeah the "good" and "evil" thing is a mortal concept.

[upper inlet]

Oh those poor innocent native falmer... that ass kicking just fell down from the sky. It's not like they slaughtered innocent women children elderly and inferm while they were under their care in trust while they slept and the warriors who could protect them were all gone looking for survivors of what he befell atmora...
It's not like merfolk in general have tried to extinct the races of men on numerous occasions, or enslaved them, or literally tried to unmake reality, or abused their gods heart to make themselves false gods. Races of men/argonians: Merfolk suck.

Pelinal was right 😂 shame him and Ysgramor never met. That would have been interesting

[upper field]

Also Tiber Septim, who became the 9th Divine. Guy was definitely not a good person. lol

Hell even Akatosh has some issues given he's the father of all Dragon kind.

[upper inlet]

I mean talos had to be brutal. he had to unify the empire during a time where daedra were invading every other day and other nations were all trying to kill each other. His ascension was a real finger to the elves though, they're still not over it. Pelinal would be proud 🤣

The only real difference between the the original 8 divines and daedric princess is that they show to give mortals a chance at existing. But all children of Anu tend to be analy retentive, always so sure if their own perfection incapable of change. Constants in a world of change, inflexible, unbending from their nature. Well... with two notable exceptions.

[slate shoal]

ugh one of your kind I bet you hate all mer and have issues with bretons

[upper inlet]

Nope the orsimer are fine folk as are the bosmer and Khajiit. Bretons are snobs but they're cool

[slate shoal]

Talos didn't have to be brutal that's why he fails to achieve amaranth

the arena isn't about fighting, it's about the struggle and to be better

glorifying pathetic violence is just wrong lol

[upper inlet]

Have you seen what the 2nd era was like? He had to be. Otherwise he'd of failed to get anywhere. The the alliances we're not going to just bow out and let him take the ruby throne and the provinces had to be brought in line. The altmer certainly weren't going to play ball least of all the thalmor. Not to mention every other threat that was going on at the time.

Imagine trying to unify a people that hate each other's guts. No one's gonna listen unless you have the talking stick.

[slate shoal]

"he'd have failed to be" taking a chance to trust others > the egotistical stance of having power over others

with a mindset of war and violence you have failed.

[upper inlet]

You can't unite an empire with hugs and kisses. Least of all one that has been ravaged by war for the better part of an era.
Words fall flat on deaf ears. And no one was willing to talk so he made them listen.

[loud thunder]

I despise that viewpoint. They are not animals, they are sapient beings.

I hated it when people talked about Galactus or Cthulu being beyond good and evil, and I hate it here.

There is no such thing as being beyond morality, even for a god. I will judge Zeus as much as I judge a mortal man.

[nova river]

honestly I view good and evil being the very thing which defines a just being and a cruel one

true gods may be above the mortal concern, but in the end, azura is loved more by her followers because she is kind and good where most molag bal's follwers follow him out of fear

it's like how lolth in dnd is the head drow pantheon but her worshippers dont love her but worship her because they dont want to piss her off

course azura will always have a special place in my heart

maybe because I am a simp

never anger the queen of roses

[loud thunder]

We've all seen THE MEMES, so your simping is justified

[nova river]

thank you korra.

[sick rose]

What are the lore-wise known properties of Malachite (Glass)? It doesn't seem to have a race tied to it (like Dwarven Metal or Orichalcum) but there also don't seem to be many properties about it as a material either. It seems to just kind of be a bridge between Scaled and Dragonscale, and that was its entire purpose so they didn't give much lore to it. Anyone know any other properties of it? Or even have some headcannon properties that seem to make sense?

[sick rose]

I'm pretty sure I know one exception, as he honestly is one of my favorites. I like to think that Caldwell from ESO is his mortal incarnation. Mainly because Caldwell is probably one of the best characters ever. Anyway, who's the second exception if Sheo is the first?

[upper inlet]

Glass is made by the dunmer is volcanic glass

Happy oblivion remastered day!

[upper inlet]

And the second exception is the new daedric prince ithelia though they were banished into another dimension.

Prince of the roads not traveled. Their power could unmake reality. This herma moral erased them from memory and imprisoned them later the vestige helped find a permanent solution in sending them to a place they had no powers.

Both ithelia and sheogorath are unique in that they aren't stagnant constants they are capable of change. Where as all others are incapable of it.

[sharp lantern]

I mean, the Atmorans commited genocide against the Aldmer of Atmora first, and swore blood vengeance against the kin of Auri-El (elves) when Lorkhan was defeated. Gelebor also states that the two were constantly warring because the Nords claimed Skyrim as their ancestral homeland. Add that up with the Atmorans following the Dragon Cult and the Eye of Magnus under Saarthal, and you definitely don't get the picture that Ysgramor and his kin were all clean and totally innocent.

[upper field]

Let's be honest: is anyone in Elder Scrolls history clean and innocent?

Heck even Stendarr isn't exactly innocent after cursing a generation of innocents after the actions of one of the Knights. Yea the Knight got what was coming, but it's still a jerk move to have the curse be passed on.

[queen mortar]

funny thing is... now we've got to probably re-explain oblivion lore to people lol

[queen mortar]

wait how did you get the brotherhood of steel and UC vanguard ranks on your profile btw?

[unkempt tide]

You can get them in #server-roles

[balmy salmon]

Some of the little pieces of lore in the Oblivion remaster that interest me a lot are the racial origins tidbits. Systres is still inhabited by Bretons despite supposedly being part of Hammerfell on the maps, eastern Valenwood still called Reaper's March, and its reputation as the center of conflicts didn't dim in the Third Era, and Grahtwood still has residual energy from Molag Bal's attack at the end of the First Era.

[upper inlet]

Elves view men as abominations. They see their mortality as a curse, where as men see it as divine gift from their creator Lorkhan(shor). So yes I can imagine the atmorans would be pissed if their god was killed and sundered.

The the dragon cult wasn't in power until after Ysgramors time it didn't exist prior to Skyrim being conquered. It was aedra made (dragons) who descended onto Skyrim who started it. The humans who began worshipping the dragons as gods enslaved the rest hence the rebellion that led to the dragon war. By then the falmer were long gone. Prior to the dragon cult they worshipped Lorkhan(shor as they call him) and it was shors wife kyne who gave them the thu'um to destroy the cult.

It wasn't until after the snow elves genocided saarthal that the atmorans truly began to hate the elves. They killed everyone while they slept up until they point the atmorans saw the falmer as friends hence why they were caught off guard. The atmorans didn't even know the eye of magnus was under saarthal at first and when they discovered it the snow elves slaughtered them. They were afraid of the rate that they were reproducing and expanding and were afraid of the power of the eye of magnus.

And the aldmer never lived in atmora. That was a land of men not mer. The atmorans were created there. The aldmer were from tamriel specifically the island of summerset.

As for gelebor he conveniently omits the fact that his people started that conflict by massacring an entire city of innocents. As I stated before, that ass kicking didn't just fall from the sky unprovoked. Clean and innocent the atmoran may not have been, but the falmer brought that fate on themselves.

Read the fall of the snow prince to understand what led to the Nordic conquest. The saarthal massacre is what directly led to the battle of solstheim.

[upper inlet]

Realization. Only the players can achieve amaranth.

[slate shoal]

all wrong lol

[sharp lantern]

1. Them being pissed only supports the narrative that they were not innocent.

2. The Dragon Cult finds its origins on Atmora. The Dragon War took place before the Falmer were wiped out - the genocide against the Falmer lasted hundreds of years.

This is stated quite clearly through The Dragon War, and Skorm Snow-Strider's Journal.

3. The claim the Nords only hated elves after Saarthal is only supported by the Nord accounts, Gelebor makes it clear that the two were constantly at war. The artifact under Saarthal is also more likely the cause of the Falmer attack on Saarthal rather than any desire to wipe out the Nords - as the Falmer still taught Ahzidal their magics after the fact.

As stated in dialogue with Knight-Paladin Gelebor, as well as in Imperial Report on Saarthal, Night of Tears, and Ahzidal's Descent.

4. Elves did live on Atmora, and were wiped out by the Atmorans - swearing blood vengeance upon the kin of Auri-El. This is stated quite clearly in Monomyth: The Heart of the World

[tropic tulip]

Mannimarco did nothing wrong

[gaunt bear]

He did nothing right, either.

[gaunt bear]

For your third point, I agree. That’s why I created a nice middle ground about what happened in Sarthaal:

• While the Nords were still alive in Sarthaal, a small group of them found, and tried to tamper with, the Eye of Magnus (without the Staff). The Snow Elves rode in to try to prevent that from happening, but ultimately couldn’t. Events spiraled out of control on both sides, and by the time the dust settled, Sarthaal was no more.

[tropic tulip]

being hot?

[gaunt bear]

I was making a joke. He did nothing wrong, but he did nothing right either.

[tropic tulip]

he did being hot right

[gaunt bear]

I suppose it’s all in how you look at things. Not everyone thinks elves are hot…

[tropic tulip]

I mean sure he's not Molag Bal level hot

[signal raptor]

https://tenor.com/view/sleep-time-lizard-gif-10909417

[dire ermine]

If there's one thing I only recently noticed, it'd be this: How come none of the Dragon Priests use the Thu'um?

You'd think they they'd be among the strongest users of Shouts the Dragonborn can encounter, but they aren't; they're just liches with fancy masks and we never once see them use the Thu'um, with the only exception being Miraak.

[upper field]

It's possible their masks and magic did a bulk of the work for them already. Also learning the Thu'um as a normal mortal is tons harder than how a Dragonborn can learn it.

[slate shoal]

Miraak being a dragonborn is like a major key to that storyline lol

[dire ermine]

Yeah, but you have to remember that back in the days of the ancient Nords, nearly everyone was able to Shout. It's why so many draugr are able to use Shouts against you. So why would none of the Dragon Priests be able to?

[slate shoal]

Ysgramor and Ulfric, using the idea of fear and hate, as scapegoats to gain power

wulfric meaning he did it to saarthal and they blamed the Falmer /j

[raw grail]

Not a lore reason, but they have too different of a skeleton, which makes the animation incompatible. Most signs point to dragon priests being able to Shout, it probably just wasn't a mechanic they had time to add

I think it's an oversight, but not by ignorance or carelessness, rather by needing to do more for it than they considered worth at the time

[jovial monolith]

How common do you think children of other races are born into their non native lands? Like altmer, bosmer or dunmer born in cyrodil? Do you think they would still have elvish names or other to fit their new surrounding?

We do see two altmer in skyrim that were clearly born outside summerset and both have altmer-ish names

[proven moss]

Oh, it's definitely very common. Just look at the proportions we see in the games. I think names can go either way, but if you have Altmer parents they're probably going to give you an Altmer name. I think we have some examples where someone doesn't have a racially conventional name, and usually it's because they're adopted/raised by parents of another race.

I can't think of any examples where native names were adopted to "integrate"

Tamriel is very cosmopolitan

[scarlet solar]

well Altmer would definitely be the least common since their culture puts a very intense emphasis on racial and cultural purity, and Altmer who are born outside of the summerset isles are likely to avoid assimilation if they were raised by Altmer parents. The summerset isles are the lease cosmopolitian region of tamriel with only high elves being allowed on the main isle.

[late spindle]

Argonians would disagree with this assessment

Had to look this up because I swear I could remember an adopted Khajiit, but I understand not including ESO lore as part of the core games https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Zhasim

[jovial monolith]

Interesting!

There's also a dunmer who intigrated himself into khaijiti society iirc

[nova river]

there is a dunmer in skyrim who was raised by argonians

brand shei, the guy we frame in the thieves guild

anyway I am taking a break from the oblivion chat, everyone is arguing back and forth about how oblivion remaster wont be great and it is the greatest thing since sliced bread

I am in the sliced bread camp, I think it is great

[proven moss]

I completely forgot about the Argonian (from Oblivion?) that mentions that Argonians often use their name translations instead of their actual Argonian names because they're too hard to pronounce

[nova river]

yea argonian language uses alot of sounds not replicable with the human or elven throat. so they use translations instead. it's mentioned in skyrim in the windhelm docks

[late spindle]

Argonians have such cool lore. I’m admittedly not a huge ESO fan but I love the way they were able to flesh out some of the under appreciated races. A lot of the lore for races that haven’t been featured in the core series gets tucked away in in-game books

I really want to replay morrowind as an argonian but like…I wanna wear shoes…

[sharp lantern]

^it's one of the things I like about ESO. It expanded a fair bit on Black Marsh.

[late spindle]

Same. I could never really get into the gameplay or the writing, but the lore and zones were awesome. The oblivion remaster is giving me the itch to pick it up again 😅

[nova river]

the canon nevarine is an argonian

[late spindle]

I understand and respect the canon, but I also understand and respect boots of blinding speed 💁‍♀️

[nova river]

I see your point

and agree

[slate shoal]

I hope ESO gives us more Falmer lore, or confirms my Tibetan Buddhist inspiration theory

[jovial monolith]

I adore how the oblivion chat can find anything go argue about. It'd impressive really. Altmer level commitment

Okay lore question: when and how did the change from aldmer to altmer occur? They didn't change their location, and apparently have been into the inbreeding/selective marriage since
... forever it seems.

So in that sort of vacuum how does an entire race change?

[jovial monolith]

They weren't super peaceful people so this is unlikely. Were they peaceful... ish? Sure, a little but one specific dragonpriest returned back to his village in the lore only to find his entire village, including his wife and CHILDREN slaughtered by the snow elves. Let me see if I can find a name for you.
Edit: it was Ahzidal

[slate shoal]

yeah the saarthal thing but we don't know how true it is, what caused it, because the way we see their religion describes it just makes them feel two sided, both buddhistic followers of Auri-El but also somehow very violent, yet even in https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Ship_of_Ice it comes off more "fight back" ish and not the brutal violence the Nords like to cry about

Nords excusing their cruel acts of violence like that isn't uncommon, even modern Nords still commit acts of hate against Elves and others

I do have a theory that Ysgramor likely twisted the emotions of the Atmorans in a similar way to Ulfric, using faith, a new land to conquer post civil war, and killing an enemy they made

if the OAG text Wulfric and the Snow Elf is canon, then it also can be interpreted as Ysgramor killing Nedes and Nords who intermingled with the Falmer peacefully too

[slate shoal]

a big thing with the Nords is they like glorifying things rather than a more accurate representation, like even in songs of the return, they describe cruel acts against the Falmer rather plainly, ripping their tongues out, even enslaving them

[sonic tendon]

It is entirely possible that the change from Aldmer to Altmer is also related to the plane of Mundus itself settling into a less mythopoeic mortal form. Seeing how other races like Bosmer and Khajiit found ways to become more "stable" and more mundane compared to their Ehlnofey Wars ancestors, it is reasonable to think that perhaps it was a similar change that led to Altmer as well with mortal plane slowly resulting in a less deified form.

[fallow harness]

How are muskets not a thing yet in lore?

[slate shoal]

they are it's just that magic and bows are just better, there's cannons too

[fallow harness]

Where are there muskets

[slate shoal]

arquebus vc for Skyrim if you think it canon, and I think Redguard mentions them

[sharp lantern]

Redguard doesn't, but there are Dwemer Arquebuses (Dwemer Spheres) in ESO

[raw grail]

That's not cc

It's a verified creation. Verified Creations and creation club are different. Creation Club is official and was made in collaboration with Bethesda as far as lore goes (not strictly canon, but "parallel to canon"). Verified Creations have absolutely 0 lore requirements and can do almost whatever they want

[slate shoal]

byeah the whole mucky system is stupid they should've kept them separate smh

[raw grail]

Changing the menu to Creations while already having a thing called Creation Club and simultaneously adding a new thing called Verified Creations which is low-key the same but different made talking about anything mod, cc, or VC related like 3x more difficult

[nova river]

your telling me. Anyway as for your question, my theory is the aldmer iisnt that different from the altmer. with the altmer's devotion and obsession on purity I wager that they havent changed genetically since the first aldmer who showed up on tamerial.

I typed that with a kitten nibbling on my fingers so mind the typos

[jovial monolith]

If they haven't changed why are they so obsessed with their purity marriages

[nova river]

because they havent changed since aldmeris

[raw grail]

Imo the purity of Altmer is a myth and almost literally skin-deep at that. We have evidence of other elven cultures retaining different parts of their ancestors which Altmer have not, often significant parts too. Many of the cultural schisms of Summerset were caused by Altmer losing or moving away from doing of those. Altmeri culture in particular has shifted massively since Aldmeris, several times

That's not to say that they haven't made attempts, just that I think their viewpoint on their own purity is over represented when the likes of the Psijics exist specifically because Altmer and Summerset were changing

[nova river]

the psijics are jerks

they kick out mannimarco to do all sorts of harm to tamriel and do nothing to stop him

I prefer the girl who joined mannimarco because she believed necromancy and soul magic can be used for good

[raw grail]

Vastarie is cool

[nova river]

I know right?

[upper field]

Reminder the Mage's Guild was founded in opposition to the Psijic Order, because being the elves they are they thought on a select few should have knowledge of using magic.

[river python]

Which is pretty fair considering

If Psijic tier mages were all over the place society would just break down

[upper field]

Not that it helps considering post-3rd Era the Mage's Guild got disbanded.

[river python]

Makes you wonder about what happens for the mage questline in TES6

[upper field]

I better not have to join the Synod or College of Whispers. D:

Speaking of, do both inhabit the Arcane University now and days? I know both are at odds with each other, but idk who gets the big, fancy building?

[nova river]

no

this is 100 years before the creation of both factions, this is during the time of the mages and fighters guilds

basically oblivion is the reason why the vigilants of stendarr came to be because daedra tried to destroy the world. The Oblivion crisis caused the creation of so many groups.

[vestal mango]

It also helps that the Oblivion crisis ended an entire dynasty and threw the empire into turmoil

[nova river]

ironically the only place in all tamriel that didnt get invaded was black marsh and thats because the argonians counter invaded mehrunes dagon. they had warning in advance about the invasion thanks to their psychic magic trees

[vestal mango]

in spectacular fashion. Not every dynasty ends with its last member summoning an avatar of akatosh to do Kaiju Battle with an avatar of Dagon in the middle of the Imperial City

[nova river]

I dont think that was an avatar

I think that was actual dagon

[vestal mango]

I say avatar because technically the daedric princes exist within not only the bodies they use to interact with things, but their entire realms and all of their artifacts

[nova river]

true

mehrunes dagon was a jerk though

had a black cat named mehrunes dagon who was so incredibly vain and destructive

[upper field]

I love how, even in all his terror, Dagon couldn't beat back Akatosh.

[vestal mango]

Bro said "I'm going to mess with Nirn" and immediately got hit by the hands. FR though the invasion wasn't just short because video game, it canonically lasted less than a year

[nova river]

and invaded everywhere

except black marsh. because the argonians are secretly chads

[vestal mango]

The best part is immediately after the Oblivion Crisis was 200 years of war and instability caused by everyone else not getting along

who knows how much planning and all that energy to just be the first domino

[nova river]

the thalmor GAINED power because they tricked the altmer government they ended the oblivion crisis

[vestal mango]

I may not be giving Dagon enough credit I mean he is the Daedric Prince of Change and Destruction and that does define the next 200 years pretty well

[nova river]

just like the thalmor gained khajiit support because they claimed to put the moons back in the night skies

[vestal mango]

Thalmor in a nutshell

[river python]

*Slavemaster brocoli

[sharp lantern]

Fairly certain they never outright claim to have ended the crisis, just that they saved Summerset. Which is a valid point.

[woeful gyro]

Is it true that the story of the shivering isles is just an elaborate hoax by sheogorath to drive the champion of Cyrrodil insane, and that Jyggalag is in fact not even real???

[robust trout]

"truth" is extremely nebulous in the world of TES. So if that's what you think, then it can certainly be true.

[woeful gyro]

I don’t really want it to be true. Kind of invalidates the entire plot in the same sense as if it had been a dream

[robust trout]

Then it doesn't have to be true. 😁

You see it more in Morrowind I think than the other games, but all of TES plays a lot with truth and facts and whether or not things "really" happened

Like, in Morrowind, are you really Nerevar Reborn? Well, that would depend on you and what you believe about your character and the world

And considering that the Shivering Isles are a Daedric Prince's domain, things get even more wibbly

[woeful gyro]

It’s just that I heard that some teso loremaster interview or something says that haskill mantled sheo previously, despite sheo saying that he’s never tried this before. Combined with the fact that jyg is sparsely mentioned if at all, it makes things dubious

[robust trout]

All things can be true

[woeful gyro]

People act as though this confirms the theory. Does it?

[robust trout]

Everything and nothing is confirmed

[woeful gyro]

No offense, but that’s kind of lame?

[robust trout]

Haskill may have mantled Sheo before, the Sheo you interact with could be Haskill and thus can still never have done it before

is any Sheo you encounter the "true/original" Sheo? Only you can answer that

Like, if you mantle Sheo, are you still yourself? You can still exit the Isles and run the rest of Oblivion as if nothing happened, and no one thinks you're Sheogorath. But you can also still be Sheogorath

Stuff like this is why there's no canon Elder Scrolls protagonist, beyond the events of the main quest

[woeful gyro]

Elder scrolls lore seems confusing and dissatisfying

[upper field]

I love it.

[tight marten]

Just wait until you discover the apotheosis rabbit hole

Or the Psyjic Endeavor

[sharp lantern]

Jyggalag was never beaten before, so even if Sheogorath was mantled in a previous Greymarch, if Jyggalag wasn't beaten, then it wouldn't matter.

[woeful gyro]

Well then that begs the question how did the coc defeat a literal god in single combat

[sharp lantern]

Skill issue

And tbf, the CoC was kind of a god in that fight due to the mantling of Sheo.

[vestal mango]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chamberlain_Haskill_Answers_Your_Questions

Only ever mentioned in one "in character" ESO article

the same Q&A also repeatedly affirms Jyggalag as a real being so there's no reason to think Jyg is fake. The reason he isn't mentioned much is because he was an extra "just in case" Prince made up in Morrowind's writing and unused/undefined until Oblivion

it's not unusual for a Daedra to be unnoticed. They don't rely on mortal belief to exist and there are infinitely many unknown ones. The Princes are just well known because they like messing with Mundus

[magic crystal]

i want to play a dunmer but kinda feel like it makes 0 sense with the themes of oblivion

why would a dunmer care about saving the empire and restoring man's covenant with akatosh -- they are very anti empire and worshop daedra. the themes of the game are very pro aedra, pro empire, and pro man in general.

anyone got head canon for this that isnt cringe?

[glass blaze]

You were born in Cyrodiil, imperial city, kavatch or chorrol. You where raised with the 9 divines as your gods and for extra flavour your only half dunmer.

[white coral]

Just because you are a dumner doesn't mean you worship the traditionally dunmer dieties, being raised in the cosmopolitan heart of the empire gives your character a lot more tolerance bc they aren't isolated w people just like them

[sharp lantern]

The Count of Cheydinhal is a Hlaalu Dunmer, and we even find some Dunmer (in the Imperial City iirc) who came to Cyrodiil to escape persecution by the Tribunal Temple.

[robust trout]

there's also the Hlaalu in Skingrad, though she's got some questionable activities

[sharp lantern]

Being a Dunmer and being anti-Empire isn't one and the same, even Morrowind-Dunmer.

[sharp lantern]

Oh right, maybe you're fleeing persecution in Morrowind for some... unsavory preferences

[robust trout]

which definitely haven't occurred more than once, we swear

[raw grail]

You misunderstood what Sheo was saying here. He never said he hasn't been mantled. He said he hasn't tried this, someone Mantling him after he's already become Jyggalag. This Mantling is different

A big theme in shivering Isles is that Sheogorath has been mantled before, but now he's trying it in a new way. It's also commonly connected to the obelisks around the plane

Not here. Didn't I say that? I'm never here when Jyggalag walks. It's one of the Rules. I've told you too much for now. Listen to me prattle on. I can see your mortal brain straining. We'll talk more later.

The Greymarch is upon us, and the Ordering begins. Armies of Order sweep My Realm. Death. Destruction. Then I have to pick up the pieces. And there are always lots of pieces. I don't like it, having to rebuild My Realm every era. Sometimes I forget where things go. Like New Sheoth. I can never remember where it belongs.... You'll change that. Break the cycle. You'll stop Jyggalag, and I'll have My Realm to come back to. I've never actually tried that before

[vestal mango]

you should play Morrowind. The main story does a great job of highlighting the complexities of Dunmer culture and House politics

There are houses on all sides of the issue and the Tribunal accepted it so what Dunmer would go against them

[lone saddle]

Please be careful to not discuss real world religion in this server. I understand how it is being referenced, but for obvious reasons we prefer to steer clear of this topic. Let's move forward from the topic at this time.

[sharp lantern]

Vivec sucks tho.

Bad guy

Man's kept Baar Dau flying over Vivec City as a terror tool

Sure, still a bad guy tho

[vestal mango]

You say that like the entirety of TES didn't start off as a DnD adventure about traveling gladiators or smth

Sorry I meant Kirkbride at least out weird stuff in there even if he did come up with it by huffing farts

and I'm not even kidding about the gladiators thing. It's called Arena because the original idea was entirely about the player being a traveling arena fighter going to different countries to fight in different arenas

[nova river]

honestly I dont see how people can like dark elf culture. IT is basically back stabbing and murder. I know I wouldnt want to be part of it.

two out of their three gods they worship is evil to the core

[junior sapphire]

that's just how you gotta make it in the world, mane

[tawdry glacier]

Especially in some actual hellscape like vvardenfell

[next python]

Firstly, what? Only Alex is pretty dang evil & selfish.

[next python]

Secondly, becuz their Great Houses were a lot more complex than just that... You really only explain Morag Tong side of things, but there's a lot more to that when discussing about the many Great Houses, how each House work & runs, etc. It's very fun and a lot more political engaging than some of the other cultures.

[sharp lantern]

The whole "religious influence" is the most boring part of the franchise.

Mostly just CHIM and Amaranth.

And "almsilvi" (apparently it's a crime to write it with caps...)

Same thing with the whole "Talos mantled Lorkhan" bit.

Mostly just the Kirkbride-written stuff

[muted hazel]

Not even gonna lie, everything Kirkbride wrote it feels like they just locked him in a room with a notebook and pens and a ton of illicit substances

[sharp lantern]

To be fair, there are some things he wrote that I do like.

But most of the things that didn't end up in the franchise itself, I dislike.

[muted hazel]

Oh same, wasn't he the one who wrote Pelinial Whitestrake and I wanna say some of Umbra

[sharp lantern]

Like "Talos holds the world up" or "Queen Ayrenn is actually a robot" or "the Thalmor will win", etc.

[sharp lantern]

Yeah, the Songs of Pelinal were all his doing IIRC, and Pelinal is based.

He also made the design document for the Nord Gods for TES: V, though that ended up being largely unused.

[muted hazel]

True story I once had someone ask me about lore for the series and I said "I only got time for two options, do you want Umbra which annoys me cus of creation club or Pelinial Whitestrake which is pretty based if you hate elves", it took me 2 hours to explain Umbra

[sharp lantern]

Umbra appearing in CC makes little sense imo. I doubt Vile would be stupid enough to remake that thing after the Umbriel Crisis.

[muted hazel]

Right? I hate it cus it opens up the concept of Daedric artifacts coming back after complete destruction, I don't want another Oblivion crisis with the Mysterium Xarxes coming back hundreds of years later

[sharp lantern]

I mean, Daedric artifacts can be recreated, Martin Septim and IIRC the priestess of Azura in TES V say it.

I just don't understand why Vile would recreate a sword that caused him so much damage.

[muted hazel]

I must have missed those lines, guess it's a good thing in playing through Oblivion again

[sharp lantern]

OG Oblivion or the remaster?

[muted hazel]

Remaster, gotta go in on the nostalgia bait

[next python]

Daedric Artifacts can be manifested back into their respective Realm of Oblivion, true, but Umbra wasn't just destroyed by normal means but rather outright snapped out of existence essentially. Complete and utter dust... There is no way it should be in Skyrim, and yeah. I don't like CC's Umbra for that reason.

[woeful gyro]

Is CHIM a one-and-done realization or is it a thing you have to reapply like cheap sunscreen?

[sharp lantern]

There is very little we know about CHIM. Or who achieved it. If anyone actually achieved it.

[tight marten]

Talos is a great example of someone truly achieving CHIM

another good one is Vivec.

[next python]

Talos is a god?

[tight marten]

In fact, Molag Bal directly showed vivec how to do it

[next python]

I'm not even sure what the rules would be for the Divine Gods & Daedric Princes when it comes to CHIM.

[sharp lantern]

Vivec is a false god. Same as Almalexia and Sotha Sil.

Though Sotha Sil is based.

[next python]

Sotha Sil is so based that every time I play Morrowind now, I make sure to find creative ways to humiliate Almalexia. Love the guy.

ESO did his character such good Justice.

[tight marten]

Talos completely changed the entirety of Cyrodils terrain after his apotheosis

[next python]

Well yeah, Dragonbreak and all that.

[sharp lantern]

Almalexia: I help everyone to fuel my ego.

Vivec: I want people's adoration, and use a terror tool to get it.

Sotha Sil: I just want to do science.

[sharp lantern]

Supposedly.

[tight marten]

The Thalmor know all about CHIM, that’s why they surprise his worship so much

[next python]

Tbf, Vivec does do good things for his people at least and have good intentions. Almalexia though is a complete and utter trash that should've been thrown away much much faster out of Dunmer's society.

[tight marten]

They only want the mer to have that knowledge

[sharp lantern]

Nah, they do it to piss off the Nords so they'll weaken the Empire.

[next python]

No, they actually want to undo Talos.

[sharp lantern]

Almalexia also did good, before she went mad due to losing her powers.

[next python]

Nah, she was always mad for power. She just went super-crazy once her powers was being threatened.

[sharp lantern]

That's only in an out-of-universe Kirkbride work. Which doesn't even state it's the Thalmor's goal - just an Altmeri view.

[tight marten]

Thalmor occupation in Skyrim doesn’t seem feasible especially with Hammerfell having independence

A frozen hellscape tens of thousands of miles away from the heart of the Aldemiri dominion

Seems like a waste of resources

[sharp lantern]

I doubt they'd occupy Skyrim before taking down Cyrodiil.

Unless if Ulfric makes some really dumb moves. Like trying to invade the Dominion... which he is preparing for.

[tight marten]

Redguards are just based

They kicked them out like it was nothing

[sharp lantern]

Forebear > Crown.

[sharp lantern]

Wouldn't go so far as to say that. Took them five more years to grind the Aldmeri to a standstill, but they still occupied part of Hammerfell.

The Dominion withdrew due to the peace treaty.

[mint stratus]

Anybody have any theories on how Mankar Camoran lived for 400 years and changed his race from Dwemer to Altmer? I heard it suggested he somehow used Mehrunes' Razor to change into an Altmer to be closer in phsycial form to the adrea

[wispy whale]

I wonder if the plane he sets up ages you differently, or operates on a timescale different than Nirn's..

[proven moss]

You mean he lived for 166 years and changed his race from a Bosmer to an Altmer.

166 is well within the typical elvish lifespan. The racial change has never been explained. OOG it seems the devs felt, as the main villain, a Bosmer didn't cut enough of a dash to make the cut. Lore-wise different explanations have been posited by the community. A popular one is that Mankar used Mehrunes Razor to change his nature.

Another popular explanation is that Mankar was Bosmer but with very apparent Ayleid heritage; which was represented visually as an Altmer in-game (since there was no Ayleid race)

[stark lotus]

I thought that was the main reason tbh 😅 and I thought Umbacano too

Or maybe not I thought so

[proven moss]

Just looked up on UESP that the Legends card game lists him as both an Altmer and a Bosmer

So, maybe he's just mixed heritage. The Camorans royal line are presumed to be Bosmer but that almost certainly isn't always the case. Not all the Cyrodiilic emperors have been Imperials after all.

It's quite possible his dad Haymon was an Altmer.

Or not his real dad

[bright bluff]

Why wasn't Reman ascend to godhood unlike Tiber Septum?

[stark lotus]

Tiber Septim literallychanged reality, basically broke the rules of the world and ascended into godhood. reman was legendary and cool, but I think it wasn't enough in comparison to Tiber Septim

[heady wave]

Something something Mantella Numidium? Common fan theory spread around I see is that with Arctus finally absorbing the Mantella and dying in Daggerfall, the ascention of the three individuals basically becomes complete. Or something like that.

[sharp lantern]

Reman is considered a God, just not one of the Nine.

[sharp lantern]

Yeah, but that only counts if you buy into the theory that the Warp in the West resulted in Talos' divinity.

Which really doesn't have much in-universe to support it.

[heady wave]

Yeah I know it's mostly a convenience-that-it-happened theory.

Still an interesting thought that the WitW could retroactively screw with history with Arctus being the final piece.

[sharp lantern]

Kinda, yeah.

I just don't really see the evidence for it.

It's really just "Well Talos wasn't a god before", though the same applies for the Tribunal, or Imperials, or the cities of Cyrodiil.

[woeful gyro]

I still don’t understand how CHIM actually functions. If it’s so powerful then why even bother ascending to godhood? Seems like putting a hat on a hat.

Why didn’t Tiber Septim just use it to live forever and continue shaping the world in his own image for eternity

[sharp lantern]

That's assuming Talos has CHIM.

[woeful gyro]

“You have suffered for me to win this throne, and I see how you hate jungle. Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.” - Heimskr quoting The Many Headed Talos in Skyrim

“CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land. Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled” - Mythic Dawn Commentaries 3

[woeful gyro]

This is a thing that’s annoying to actually do any research into because it’s hard to disentangle things I should actually pay attention to vs Michael Kirkbride being obnoxious in blog posts and forum comments

[sharp lantern]

1. The part about Jungle is left out in the used version.

2. A mad Daedric Cultist is hardly reliable evidence.

3. Cyrodiil already wasn't a jungle pre-Talos.

[woeful gyro]

Look, i don’t really like it either but just repeatedly denying that it exists or insisting on a certain level of ambiguity isn’t really conducive to a meaningful discussion. I think canonicity is important, but some degree of speculation is inevitable

[sharp lantern]

The inherent flaw with the "Talos changed Cyrodiil" story is that its only really stated by mad-cultist Camoran. Who can't even correctly connect the Daedric realms to their Princes.

And ESO has since added more lore which provides an explanation backed up by other - more reliable - sources in the form of Tower lore.

[woeful gyro]

Also even without the jungle part in the first part of the quote, the part where he says “I breathe now, in the breath of royalty” still remains. CHIM is stated to be the secret syllable of royalty by Molag Baal

[mossy moss]

The particularly humorous part here is that both of you are right and are saying the other is wrong.

Tiber Septim/Talos Stormcrown permanently and retroactively changed Cyrodiil’s landscape using the Towers through the knowledge he gained from achieving CHIM.

[agile junco]

Did not mind me, I am just here for the nerd fights...

[sharp lantern]

And one can also see that as figurative; Septim reforming Tamriel as its Emperor.

[woeful gyro]

with the further context that is Mythic Dawn Commentaries 3, it becomes less likely that this is figurative. In reverse, it also makes it more difficult to dismiss it as mad cultist ramblings

Like it or not (and I’m not saying I do), CHIM is a thing and the few in-game clues that have been funneled down to us say that Tiber Septim probably achieved it

Vivec, meanwhile, is most likely full of crap imo but talos seems like the genuine article

[proven moss]

The fact that Talos says he "breathes now, in royalty," is basically the smoking gun that he's achieved CHIM - which, as Vivec writes, is the secret syllable of royalty.

Here's an OOG quote from Kurt Kuhlman explaining the meaning of the Amulet of King's name:

Chim: in this case, ‘royalty’.
El: ‘high’
Ada: ‘spirit’
Bal: ‘stone’
So, “the spirit stone of high royalty.”
When the Amulet of Kings is called the Chim-el Adabal, it is never meant as a literal translation. Intent is key. While it is, in a sense, a surrogate name, the speaker is instead using it when being especially reverent, referring to the amulet’s ancient ties to the power of White-Gold Tower.
— September 24, 2005

FungalWitch is right. These arent alternative explanations of Talos' godhood. All these things - the towers, the AoK, high royalty/CHIM, dragonbreaks - are all fundamentally connected.

[woeful gyro]

My original question was about how CHIM actually functions. Is it a one-and-done realization that makes reality your plaything or is it more complicated?

[tight marten]

CHIM is the endgoal of the Psijic Endeavor. But it’s a little more complicated than that. CHIM is really only achieved to reach what’s called Amaranth.

If one were to ever achieve such a state, its alleged they would be able to dream like Anu does

[proven moss]

Think of CHIM like nirvana in Buddhism

It's an enlightened state of mind

Or perhaps Buddhahood. Not sure how far you want to take this analogy.

Here's an OOG source from MK speaking about it being a delicate, transitory state. More akin to nirvana, then.

On CHIM making Tamriel boring because it makes it “all a dream” (01/18/11)
Just wanna say because I never think I did, the whole “it was all just a dream” avenue is completely missing the point. Consider your lucid dreams, if you’ve been lucky enough to have ever had one. Then think again before you dismiss the the idea of Divine Hypnagogia. If you get it (or care to) then mull it over until it punches the back of your eyeballs.
No wonder it’s hard to retain CHIM. Such… violence.

Hypnagogia is the state you're in between sleep and awakeness.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia

Notice how he uses hypnagogia instead of hypnopompia - from awareness to slumber... not the other way around.

[woeful gyro]

I try to ignore Michael Kirkbrides OOG stuff

I consider most of his blog posts and forum comments to be the unfiltered sewage of a person used to having nerds worship the ground he walks on. Sorry not sorry. Please do tell me I’m one of the dull, uncreative people who hates everything that makes Elder Scrolls interesting

[proven moss]

Well ignoring OOG stuff, we don't know much about CHIM. So your question then is unanswerable.

It's secret knowledge required to ascend to godhood. We don't know what that knowledge is. How this revelatiory knowledge 'functions' is beyond our ken.

[mossy moss]

Ignoring his out of game content is a bit silly, honestly. Even Bethesda has stated comments from past and present developers have a place in canon, but the games may eventually overrule those comments.

For example, Douglas Goodall released an out of game writing last year talking about why some of the towns from Arena are missing in Skyrim. There’s nothing in game content that says his oog work is wrong, so it can be treated as canon until it’s not.

On top of that, Heimskr’s speech—which you quoted earlier—is directly taken from one of MK’s out of game writings.

[raw grail]

On canon and noncanon sources (2006-06-05)    Edit

I would like to propose that instead of there being a black-and-white distinction between canon and non-canon, loreists refer to Primary and Secondary Sources. A Secondary Source, such as a comment from MK or a reference in the Trial or RP, may be 100% accurate and become a Primary Source when it is later published in a game; it may remain a useful reference, such as a scholar's commentary on Shakespeare, which is informed and likely true, though not actually part of a play or sonnet; or, it may be disproved on later Primary Source evidence.

[sharp lantern]

Todd Howard has stated the order of priority quite clearly:
-What you see in the games.
-What you read in the games.
-Official material outside the games.

And then a couple others.

[raw grail]

you can handle his stuff however you want, just be aware that this stance is not really the ethos the games are made with, and that you're missing out on huge swaths of the universe as a result. That's not to say you or anyone should take what he says completely uncritically, either, just that your approach to the topic is different than the writers' own

His oog stuff is often even taken as massive inspiration for official stuff, especially in Skyrim and ESO

[sharp lantern]

The writers pick and choose what they wish to include. That doesn't make anything a former developer created something you should insta tly consider.

[woeful gyro]

I refuse to see C0DA as canon, or accept that pelinal whitestrake is a time traveling cyborg

[sharp lantern]

C0DA for example is ridiculous.

[raw grail]

I'm not making a statement on canon, I'm making a statement on the validity of our sources of information

[woeful gyro]

His out of game content is even sillier

[sharp lantern]

And what is valid is what's in the franchise.

[raw grail]

Something that is canon is not necessarily true and just because something is true doesn't make it canon. Canon is about licensing and officiality, not truth. In the case of former writers having commentary on the universe, we've got an informed source relaying information to us through their own biased lens. This is basically how we have to approach every in universe source, too, except they may not even be informed

[raw grail]

Again

[sharp lantern]

That doesn't say as you do though. Quite the opposite.

[woeful gyro]

Who even provided that quote

[raw grail]

I am almost literally reiterating what it says

[raw grail]

That's Ted Peterson

[raw grail]

The only part I've left out is that primary sources override secondary sources, because it's not the convo rn. The convo is whether oog commentary - called secondary sources here - should be considered valid sources of information

[mossy moss]

That quote does not at all state the opposite of what the Googler of Men is saying. I have no idea how you could possibly come to such a conclusion.

[sharp lantern]

It says "What an unofficial work says be me accurate and can become an official source later".

[raw grail]

Yes, which I also talked about

[sharp lantern]

Which, until they are included, they aren't.

[mossy moss]

That is your opinion.

[woeful gyro]

Opinion has nothing to do with it.

[mossy moss]

It most certainly does, but this is not a discussion that is going to go anywhere (it never does).

[raw grail]

instead of there being a black-and-white distinction between canon and non-canon, loreists refer to Primary and Secondary Sources. [...] [A secondary source] may remain a useful reference, [...] which is informed and likely true, though not actually part of a play or sonnet."

[woeful gyro]

So what, should I accept C0DA and the trial as canon? Should I say to myself “these things happen in this universe”?

[raw grail]

[sharp lantern]

May remain a useful reference.

[mossy moss]

MK himself has stated C0DA is a fanfiction from him.

It’s not the same as other works. It shouldn’t be treated seriously.

[raw grail]

No, I'm not saying they should be canon, I'm saying they're useful sources of information. Where did you ever get the idea I said it was canon?

[raw grail]

C0DA is a deconstruction of canon in the first place, to suggest it should be canon is to misunderstand it's purpose

[mossy moss]

Although parts of C0DA were canonized in ESO. xD

[woeful gyro]

I hate mk so much

[raw grail]

Whether you hate him has no bearing on whether he's a useful reference

[woeful gyro]

He makes talking about all of this unfun

[umbral cypress]

What'S C0DA??

[mossy moss]

I feel quite the opposite, personally.

You pretty much cannot discuss the metaphysics (such as CHIM) without MK. His background in theology is central to it.

[woeful gyro]

I refuse to accept every wild off the wall and unfiltered thing mk says on blog posts and forum comments uncritically, and it bothers me how much people want to

[raw grail]

I never said uncritically. I agree he shouldn't be taken as gospel, nor should any source of information for TES

[umbral cypress]

I feel like MK is seen as the beginning and end of what some people enjoy about TES, despite there being more than one person responsible for the cooler concepts

[raw grail]

I find the stance of uncritically taking MK at his word as annoying as I find the stance of discarding everything he's ever said out of the games

[woeful gyro]

Weird does not necessarily equate to cool

[mossy moss]

It’s also important to note that MK has stated a lot of what he’s said was created by him and Kuhlmann together. MK is just the one who talks to the public.

[umbral cypress]

Yeah. I like weird stuff but I also like semi-digestible lore as well.

[raw grail]

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/s/24TMRHqdXf

[umbral cypress]

Thank ye kind sir

[raw grail]

o7

[woeful gyro]

A lot of words when all you have to say is “C0DA is Michael Kirkbride’s fanfic”. But of course the tes “deep lore” community has its head up its you-know-where and need to put their elitist spin on it.

[umbral cypress]

I saw an interview with Ted Peterson, where he said that a lot of lore books are intentionally meant to contradict each other. And I just think that's the most fun thing a fantasy or sci fi world can do. Speculation is kinda key to a living world.

Just a random thought cause its v cool to me

[umbral cypress]

I guess from that + the post its basically a fanfiction of an alternate universe of TES. Saw it was Sci-Fi and tapped out. I don't want Sci-Fi TES.

[sharp lantern]

Numidium (which is destroyed) returns and destroys the world. Also Queen Ayrenn is a robot, television exists, and the Dunmer flee to the moon.

Or something like that.

[umbral cypress]

Sounds like NieR lmao

[raw grail]

Chill, dawg, it's not that deep. He asked and I provided a helpful and informational overview on what it is and isn't from LadyN, MK's wife, since she has insight. If you don't want to provide a helpful answer, you don't have to, but don't diss others for providing information and resources

If you don't wanna read it, don't. It wasn't for you

[tight marten]

The pantheon gets even weirder when you realize a few of the races have their own gods separate from the 9 divines

[sharp lantern]

Most do, actually.

[woeful gyro]

Mk makes this unfun to talk about because you spend more time talking about what you should be talking about then talking about the things you actually want to talk about

[raw grail]

TES is already sci Fi! But yes, true, it's basically a reimagining of TES and it's narratives in superhero comic book fashion

[raw grail]

That doesn't mean you have to be disrespectful to me for providing someone an answer 😅

[woeful gyro]

Wasn’t directed at you, was directed at whoever wrote it

[sharp lantern]

Cyrodiil and Skyrim worship the Nine (or Eight now). High Rock and the Forebears the Eight. In the late-Third Era, the Nine was also the dominant faith in Hlaalu territory and the Vvardenfell District of Morrowind.

[umbral cypress]

Is it? I don't really see it as such. I know Science Fiction can have a huge net to cast, but I see it as Fantasy mostly.

[raw grail]

It was long time community member and MK's wife, LadyN, providing clarity because it got mixed up so many times

It's no "deep lore" thing, it was clarifying what C0DA is and isn't cuz she'd seen it misinterpreted and miscommunicated so many times

I figured you'd be throwing insults at me, rather than someone who isn't even in the convo to defend themselves

[tight marten]

It’s only 8 if you’re a dirty high elf

[woeful gyro]

The fact that that sub has a post like that and it isn’t considered offtopic is absurd

[raw grail]

Especially considering your reply seemed much too fast to read it, but plenty fast to have read what I said

[woeful gyro]

Sure are getting defensive there

[raw grail]

Talking about the reality of a source in TES lore is on topic af, wdym

[woeful gyro]

C0DA is not tes lore

[raw grail]

Because you're being rude and insulting people. It's very unkind

[sharp lantern]

Bretons and Redguards aren't elves lol.

[raw grail]

I get you don't like the lore but you don't even know me, who I originally figured you were insulting, let alone LadyN or MK himself. You're throwing a lot of shade, not at sources or information but at people. It feels uncalled for

[sharp lantern]

Not liking OOG works is not the same as not liking the lore.

[raw grail]

I meant the lore in oog works, not lore in general. That's my bad for being imprecise

[umbral cypress]

It does seem a little bit argumentative and antagonistic. I get the frustration on the fixation for the work, since it is unofficial. However, there is no need for hostility.

And I am someone who just learned about it and shared my lack of interest as well

[woeful gyro]

What’s uncalled for? Calling the lore enthusiasts elitist? Any time you don’t like an aspect of the more esoteric and metaphysical aspects of the lore, they tell you you just don’t get it or that you’re a normie who wants elder scrolls to be like lord of the rings and less interesting

[raw grail]

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about someone you don't know based on a post you didn't read

[umbral cypress]

Elitism is annoying, but I didn't really see that in this discussion.

But @raw grail I am actually super interested in your sci fi explanation! There may be something I don't know and I have been trying to get into the lore more.

[raw grail]

But yes, saying a person has their head up their ass and is a lore elitist who didn't need to use so many words to provide clarity on a highly controversial and oft talked about part of lore is uncalled for

[woeful gyro]

C0DA is not part of the lore

it’s a fanfic

[raw grail]

I would argue fanfics are also lore!

Lore is a body of knowledge held by a community, more or less. Canon is just one aspect of that

[woeful gyro]

Uh huh. Should I consider Fallout: The Frontier to be part of the lore of the fallout series, then?

[raw grail]

I don't think most fanfic is necessarily useful for learning about lore, but I do think some dev fan fic is

[raw grail]

You're mixing up canon and lore. Like I said, canon is merely one aspect of lore!

[woeful gyro]

Yeah I just disagree. There needs to be a distinction

[umbral cypress]

I do value canon when speaking about in-universe lore tidbits. But fanworks are fun to see. Fallout London is dope!

[woeful gyro]

Not saying they aren’t

[umbral cypress]

I do think canon is important for proper speculation. Since it is what the devs will most likely work off of.

[raw grail]

I do think canon is a useful and worthwhile concept, I just think limiting lore to canon is diminutive and missing a lot of the point of the series

I think canon stuff is more "authoritative" in a sense

[woeful gyro]

If it’s not canon then I’m not going to bring it up as evidence for some point I’m trying to prove it a question I’m trying to answer.

Speculation is an inevitable part of how people interact with any media but if, like, a fanfic author claims that because he wrote a scene where, I don’t know, the enterprise stumbles, across the Death Star or something , that means we should consider it to have actually happened then I call bs

[raw grail]

Like if we're thinking of canon and Apocrypha, these are originally terms referring to the "official" and "less than official" biblical texts. If we were to more generally talk about "biblical lore," both of these would be useful to reference to better understand certain context, concepts, etc through certain lenses. You have to keep those lenses in mind, but it doesn't mean you need to discard everything in either category

Take it in context, basically

[umbral cypress]

Could you give me an example of fanfic or unofficial sources being useful in that context? /geniune

[raw grail]

Yes! Final Report to Trebonius is an unofficial, fan-made text hosted on the Imperial Library which is often considered an extremely useful resource for interpreting and understanding the disappearance of the Dwemer. It makes rigorous use of canonical sources, but the conclusion it reaches and most of the contents themselves are not canon, since they're fan-written. That doesn't make it any less useful, simply less authoritative

It has no power to decide what is true, or to decide what isn't true, or to change those things, but it can provide insight, information, and interpretation

[sharp lantern]

Why would I need someone else's opinion on an in-universe mystery when I can make my own?

[umbral cypress]

I'll look it up, thank you!

[sharp lantern]

I believe the Dwemer burned to death when Kagrenac struck the Heart.

[umbral cypress]

I think the Dwemer mystery not being properly solved is just really cool

Urban legend vibes

Also thank you for letting me know about that website, gonna spend all day reading it lol

[raw grail]

You don't need it! You also don't need any of the sources in the game to arrive a conclusion. Anyone is free to arrive at any conclusion based on any information or lack thereof that they please. I physically could not stop them if I wanted. Personally, I prefer to come to my own conclusion by exploring perspectives - my own and others alike - and the evidence for or against them

[umbral cypress]

I believe █☰ ▟▛ ❰ ▞▚ ▛ █☰ ◗ ▜▛ █▬█ █ ▟▛ ▛▚▞▜ ██ 🆁� ▜▛ ▞▚ ▙ ❰ ██ █ ▙ ▞▚ ▛▟ ▟▛ ▜▛ 🆁� ▞▚ ▛▟ ▟▛ ❰ █☰ ▛▟ ◗ █☰ ◗ ▜▛ ██ ▜▛ █▬█ █☰ 🅶� ██ ◗ ▟▛

[umbral cypress]

So would you say fanfic can just be used as an alternative to just regular debate on a topic?

Just a different avenue to get someone's opinion?

[sharp lantern]

Reason I think they burned to death are images displayed in The Egg of Time.

Also the ash piles on Dwemer armor, bedframes, stools, etc. in the Dwemer ruins under Mournhold.

[raw grail]

I think it's useful, not necessarily a replacement for other sources

Even incorrect perspectives are often useful :D

[umbral cypress]

Cool!

Dont people also turn to ash when they get soul gem'd or am i just misremembering

Upon reflection: they do not

[sharp lantern]

I don't think they do

[static hinge]

Their souls go to the Soul Cairn where the True Masters are or something like that but nah their body stays ragdolled on Tamriel

[tight marten]

In Skyrim when you soul trap someone and kill them, their remains turn into a glowing blue pile of….something

[sharp lantern]

That's when you resurrect them

(And they die)

[raw grail]

I should probably clarify a little: TES blends fantasy elements with Sci Fi concepts, undertones, and the like. Mananauts are basically astronauts but Oblivion (outer space) and Aetherius (extradimensional), the Battlespire is essentially a space station, the Dwemer and Sotha Sil in general, Adamantine Tower as a spaceship... It's a lot like how Star Wars is actually fantasy under a coat of sci fi paint, but the sci fi is a bit more subtle here. There's a few other concepts I could bring up, especially regarding the workings of shadow magic, but they're a bit harder to just point to and require more breaking down, which I can't do rn

@umbral cypress

[tight marten]

It must have been from a mod then (I’m guilty of not playing vanilla Skyrim in years)

[sharp lantern]

Since when is the Adamantine Tower a spaceship?

[raw grail]

Since PGE1, albeit through implication at the time

[tight marten]

Not that heavy, usually only lore friendly stuff

Some people enjoy flying Thomas the tank engines though i guess

[raw grail]

MK, who helped write large portions of it, clarified on it more explicitly later

It's a large silvery vessel which landed upon Nirn and has an inner cylinder which is smooth except for what appears to be a door, etc

[sharp lantern]

Sounds wack.

[raw grail]

Once also nods toward it I think but I'm not sure off top

[raw grail]

Such was PGE1 and Redguard/Morrowind lore!

[sharp lantern]

Where in the PGE does it say Direnni Tower is a spaceship? Afaik it only speaks of Alinor's Sunbirds and Reman's Mananauts.

[raw grail]

Sorry, I think you might have missed part of what I said. I said in PGE1 it was implicit, and then MK makes it explicit

[sharp lantern]

Implicit kind of indicates there's a nod to it.

[woeful gyro]

I think that’s a really needlessly complicated way to interact with fictional media. If it’s in the game then that’s what happened. If there’s not enough info in the game or sources are unreliable or there’s conflicting accounts then it is what it is. Speculation is fine, but you’re not gonna catch me quoting something Michael kirkbride wrote on his blog to answer someone’s question and pushing it as definitive. Not until it actually appears in a game. I’ll agree that pelinal whitestrake is a cyborg from the future when an in-game text in tes6 or whatever says this to me

[raw grail]

Oh, yeah. It's in the high rock section I think

[raw grail]

If you don't want to interact with it that way, don't. I urge you to interact with it whatever way makes it more enjoyable or genuine to you, and I'll do the same, and we can each respectfully share our perspectives and what contributed to them

[woeful gyro]

Yeah and I’ll feel free to call bs like I do with ppl who say C0DA is lore lmao

[sharp lantern]

Third or First edition?

[mossy moss]

Anyone who says C0DA is lore fundamentally misunderstands C0DA anyway. It’s such a weird comment to make towards someone who very explicitly doesn’t agree with it being part of canon.

[raw grail]

First

[raw grail]

Well it totally is lore, just not canon. Lore is a body of knowledge, canon is a subset of lore defined by an authority

[woeful gyro]

That’s just an example. Terminator whitestrake and the eye of magnus being a space probe also from the future are better examples i guess

[raw grail]

C0DA is absolutely a contribution to the lore, it just is not an official one, and has to be viewed in a specific context if you're going to use it at all

[woeful gyro]

And the trial which is 100% deep fried cringe

[raw grail]

I find it interesting that a lot of your comments are about it's quality rather than it's accuracy

[sharp lantern]

I don't really see how that describes a spaceship.

[raw grail]

If it were written as an official source, would that change your willingness to accept the sources?

[woeful gyro]

Ok, I officially and explicitly comment that it’s bs

[raw grail]

Despite being just as bad, in your view?

[woeful gyro]

Unfortunately yes

[raw grail]

Okay. Just checking. There are people who would not change their answer!

[sharp lantern]

Cherry picking what you do and don't consider as lore, on the basis of liking/disliking it, is favoritism.

I agree with Jon though that anything not published by Bethesda shouldn't be held on an equal level to that which is.

[raw grail]

Which is also fine, like I said, engage with it how you want. It just changes how I approach the convo

[raw grail]

I agree it shouldn't be equal!

Oog dev commentary isn't authoritative, it's simply informed and useful

This goes for MK, Lawrence Schick, Douglass Goodall, Todd Howard, Ted Peterson, Kurt Kuhlmann...

[woeful gyro]

I can see how it can be informed, but not how it’s useful. For example, it’s not unheard of for long time insiders of particular industries to make predictions based on their own insight and experience, and then have those predictions turn out flat wrong

[raw grail]

Something having the capability to be wrong doesn't make it not useful

[woeful gyro]

But it’s not just that it has the capability to be wrong in this case, it is wrong unless bethesda says it isn’t

[raw grail]

I don't even know how to respond to that

[woeful gyro]

Ok

[sharp lantern]

My issue with it is mostly that people use it as cold-hard evidence. A lot of people claim that Talos "definitely mantled Lorkhan" or how "Talos is an oversoul" just because of OOG works.

Even going so far as to deny what's in the games to insist the unofficial work is true.

[raw grail]

I agree entirely that treating* MK's or any other Dev's oog works, etc, as absolute is a bad way to go about it

Then again, I also don't think we should be taking ANYTHING in TES as absolute

Taking a source as absolute in the first place is kind of antithetical to the approach TES takes

Needa consider the biases, prejudices, blind spots, goals... Of the writer

[mossy moss]

I disagree.

[sharp lantern]

Same thing with the Shezarrine. Due to Kirkbride's "list of avatars of Lorkhan" a whole bunch of people claim that there are multiple "Shezarrines"... even though Shezarrine, like Nerevarine, is a singular term. The Shezarrine.

[raw grail]

Yeah, agreed. That's misinterpreting what MK said anyways

[sharp lantern]

And we barely even know what or who the Shezarrine is. Whether they have already come back or not, or what their purpose is.

Implications are there that it's Shezarr reincarnate (if we read it like the Nerevarine) but nothing concrete.

[raw grail]

Thats fair, but I do think it's based on an inaccurate perception of what lore and TES both are

You're entitled to the opinion still, tho

[raw grail]

Yeah, I hear ya

[mossy moss]

Calling my perception of something “inaccurate” because I disagree on what the term lore means is a bit condescending.

The stories I write about TES, for example, aren’t lore, but they are informed by the lore. I don’t see C0DA as any different, particularly when MK has said something similar after all the controversy about it.

[raw grail]

I'm not entirely sure how saying that I think you're using a word wrong is condescending

[raw grail]

I think that mainly depends on whether you're contributing them to the body of knowledge that is TES lore

If they're purely personal and not something which is really affecting the community, yeah, sure, I agree

[sharp lantern]

I mean, if you publish them, then by your definition, they should be classified as lore.

[raw grail]

Yep!

If it's entered to the community and body of knowledge, it is lore

[sharp lantern]

Which also opens the doorway to the lore friendly Alduin the flying train mod for Skyrim

[raw grail]

If it's presented as a contribution to the body of knowledge that is TES lore, yes!

[sharp lantern]

I disagree.

[raw grail]

It might be an absurd one which isn't particularly worth taking as information, but it is, imo by definition, lore

[raw grail]

Granted, I also don't think this is a genuine entry to lore, it feels more like humor to me? Which arguably is a contribution in its own way, I guess...

I don't know the full context so it's hard for me to know where it'd sit for me, as it is, rather than in a hypothetical situation in which it's provided as a genuine contribution

I DO think there might be a genuine distinction to make between in-character and out-of-character stuff, but at the same time I don't know that out-of-character stuff should be discarded entirely

After all, that'd disinclude things like Decrypting the Elder Scrolls, most interviews, etc

[woeful gyro]

There’s a mod that turns all skyrim shouts into fart noises how lore friendly is that

[raw grail]

Being lore friendly and contributing to the lore are two different questions

Lots of both official and unofficial contributions to the lore are not lore friendly

[sharp lantern]

That's canon lore. Referenced in ESO.

[raw grail]

Especially when you get into weird stuff like CC

[woeful gyro]

So do shouts being modded to sound like farts contribute to the lore?

[woeful gyro]

Lol what

[sharp lantern]

Ha! Gotem! 😄

[raw grail]

If the mod was made as a contribution to the lore, then it is part of it, yeah

[woeful gyro]

I know nothing about teso so I’m pretty easy to trick

[raw grail]

The ridiculousness of a contribution does not change whether or not it is a contribution. No level of quality or lack thereof changes that

[sharp lantern]

I strongly disagree with that notion. Someone's fanfics or modlists are fanon - not part of the lore at large.

[sharp lantern]

ESO adds a ton of interesting stuff. It's gotten a bit too large tho for my liking.

[raw grail]

I might consider them negligible contributions in some cases, just like I might consider dagon's guitar a negligible contribution to the lore

I was typing smth and my dog tackled me and I lost my train of thought so one moment

[raw grail]

By my understanding of the words, "canon" and "lore" are not interchangeable. Canon is a judgement by an authority, while lore is knowledge and information shared by a community. Lore and canon are not interchangeable, nor should they be confused for truth. Whether something is ridiculous or false has no bearing on whether it's canon or lore, since even the most canonical sources can be both ridiculous and false. Whether something is canon depends primarily on BGS. Whether something is lore is not in their hands, since they don't control the community. The fact there's a difference should be indicated by the fact that we - UESP in particular, but also much of the community and even occasionally devs - refer to lore as "official" or "unofficial" (UOL stands for Unofficial Lore). This is the difference that canon speaks to, not the difference between "is lore" and "is not lore".

"The fans and their opinions play a large part in our decision making process. I try to read and interact with fans on our own forums and some others whenever I get the chance. Probably the three biggest areas the fans complained about in Morrowind were the lack of NPC schedules, the combat, and the tedium of traveling back and forth across the world for quests. We’ve gone to great lengths to address all three areas for Morrowind. We made mounts a priority from the start primarily based on fan input. We take in all the fan input we can get – all the forums posts, the letters, the reviews, the fan sites, talking to people in stores. Ultimately, it’s them who we make these games for, and they’re the ones out there on the front lines, evangelizing us to the unwashed masses that don’t have the first clue what the letters R, P, or G stand for, but who would probably love our games if they knew about them. The best thanks I can think to give them is to keep on listening and keep on trying to make the game as good as we can make it."
- Gavin Carter

"I know of no secret database held by Mark. I consider the Imperial library and Unofficial Elder Scrolls Page as authoritative. We had a lot of crackpot 'Franchise Mysteries', but I don't recall ever formally documenting them. That was their great charm... we never really wanted to record a singe Real Truth, and preferred to maintain the crackpot ideass as a sort of communal collective unconscious."
- Ken Rolston

"We keep it in house, for the most part, because we don't want to, you know, step on anybody's toes. We don't want to steal things from people. And I think we've got a lot of really great ideas now. That said, one of the cool things is that when we create something, there's a response to that. And that response is almost never what we expect. Which is really neat. When I did Truth in Sequence, which is the Sotha Sil sermons or whatever, I had a very clear idea of what I was getting across. "This is obvious," whatever. And then it made it out into the world, and all the folks out there in the lore community were picking it to pieces and saying "it could mean this, or it could mean this," and I was just blown away. I was like, "oh my god, it totally could mean that!" [...]

"It's amazing. It's this weird, kind of miraculous thing that happens, where you create something, and you send it off into the world, and it lives its own life, and people look at it and they interpret it one way or they interpret it another. [...] As writers, it's our job to create things that people can debate. If we create something, and we say, you know, "this is absolutely how it is," and we write this solid, irrefutable thing, then we failed. Because then people say, "that's clearly the truth," and the debate is over. [...]

"It's a fine line. You want to provide lore that's interesting and that people can really think about, but you also want to use a light touch and let people come to their own conclusions. When somebody sees something in a way that's fundamentally different from a way that I see it, but I wrote it, that's really encouraging. That means that we've done something right."
- Leamon Tuttle

"Tamriel is a world where all history, past and future, is described in the ever-shifting texts of the mysterious Elder Scrolls, which tell always of what might be rather than of what is. And this is a uniquely suitable setting for a multiplayer online game that hosts players of many cultures and backgrounds. What could be better for characters in a role-playing game than an expansive world of many different cultures, each with its own history and myths, so you can be whoever you want to be? That sounds great—but what should your character believe is really true? Since all the stories of this world come from characters in the setting itself, and you can listen to them and read their books, you can decide that for yourself. And whatever that is, it's as right as any other character's beliefs, player or non-player, because your character lives in the same world they do.

"And what your character does, and says, and believes, becomes part of that world. For you, and whoever else shares the experience, what happened is now part of the lore. The non-player characters are all there, ready to share their stories with you, but it's you who makes those stories live, because your character has agency and meaningful choices where the NPCs do not. Moreover, what your character does persists for you, and the stories you’ve told and the experiences you've shared with your friends live on in your own memories. You just added to the history of Tamriel.

"And not just in your memories, because Tamriel is a world that continues in constant development, and where that world goes next depends upon what you did and how you reacted to it! The game devs pay close attention to what you liked and what you didn't. Recurring characters like Razum-dar and Naryu Virian don’t come back because the game devs think they should, they recur because YOU told the game devs that your experiences with those characters were significant and memorable. What you do in Tamriel, and how you feel about what you did, steers the direction of future development."
- Lawrence Schick

(attributions incoming shortly)

Oops I had a repeat when I meant to send a diff one

Okay everything is fixed now

[raw grail]

This "communal collective unconscious" is what I refer to as lore. The foundation of it is the canon, official lore, but lore does not stop there

The most important thing I want to say is that you and your design group don’t need the endorsement or validation from a loremaster, current or emeritus, to add to the lore of the Elder Scrolls. As long as you do your homework (and you do), and follow the rule of subjectivity, anything you decide to articulate is legitimate and within the Elder Scrolls approach to mythohistory, which embraces contributions from all different points of view. Canon is a figment; in the Elder Scrolls, if it seems right, it is right.
- Lawrence Schick (again)

[jovial lark]

By that metric would you exclude CoDA?

I'm not being hostile, just curious

[raw grail]

Yes, based on prior convo

[raw grail]

[jovial lark]

Thank you for answering this. I appreciate it ❤️

[nova river]

downs some skooma anyone want any?

[limber patio]

https://tenor.com/view/oblivion-gamerpoop-criminal-scum-gif-15277113

[umbral cypress]

||meet me behind The Fo'c's'le||

[stiff cradle]

I still love that it is a canon fact that a man had sex with a mountain so hard he died (while his shield maiden watched), and the resulting baby was crowned Emperor

[sharp lantern]

I'd hesitate calling it canon fact. Sounds more like an attempt by Reman to make himself sound like a legitimate succesor to Alessia.

[wispy whale]

canon in the sense that a game character said it

[sharp lantern]

That's true

It's the same thing with Pelinal supposedly calling out to Reman - it comes from the Songs of Pelinal considered part of the "Reman Manuscript", and as stated in The Book of the Dragonborn, Reman made many stories to legitimize his claim to the throne.

[vestal mango]

It's canon in the same way that it's canon IRL that OJ didn't do it because he wrote a book talking about how he didn't do it

[sharp lantern]

So one of the lines of dialogue of Legion guards in Riften is: "Now that the Empire's arrived in Riften, we've finally established a launching point into Morrowind... just in case."

A launching point into Morrowind just in case... of what? I somewhat doubt the Empire is toying around with the idea of invading Morrowind given that that would draw a lot of soldiers away from Cyrodiil.

Morrowind invasion of the Empire? About equally as unlikely, given that Morrowind is still rebuilding and hasn't even fully gotten rid of the Argonians who invaded their lands.

[woeful gyro]

How far apart chronologically are morrowind, oblivion, and skyrim?

[pliant sorrel]

This is Skyrim... Its narration is... Meh.

explanation for lack of support for General Tullius in the Skyrim allowing them to pretty much annihilate Stormcloaks is that the only road was mysteriously blocked, but in the same time, Emperor comes to the Skyrim through boat.

[hazy quiver]

6 years between Morrowind and oblivion. 201 between oblivion and Skyrim

[woeful gyro]

Morrowind hasn’t recovered 207 years later?

[pliant sorrel]

no, because southern part got flooded by Argonians

new Capital city of Morrowind is Black Light in the Western part of Morrowind, further on north

[hazy quiver]

I mean, they’ve started rebuilding some places. But between the Red Year, Umbriel crisis, and Argonians, Morrowind is not doing great

[pliant sorrel]

back to the topic. For The Empire, it is an opportunity. They could use Skyrim for transporting soldiers from Cyrodiil to the Morrowind and push Argonians back to the Black Marsh with their superior power, now with support of the Dragonborn, possibly creating some sort of Pact between Cyrodiil, Skyrim and Morrowind. Dunmers could've used to the rough climate of Morrowind after The Red Year... But Argonians? I doubt so. Just look at the Solstheim in Skyrim and compare it to the Black Marsh or Riften being quite close in climate.

[ember widget]

Best YouTube lore channel besides Imperial Knowledge?

[umbral cypress]

I like Double Negative

[ember widget]

I will check that out, thanks

[umbral cypress]

He has good humor and is very digestible

[heady wave]

Could just be soldier's banter. It's not like the average legion trooper are involved in war planning - if the average soldier believes the Empire should be wholly united, them believing they should have every strategic advantage isn't out of the norm I guess.

[sharp lantern]

Isn't the reason we're given the fact they don't get reinforcements due to preparations in Cyrodiil for Great War 2.0?

[raw grail]

Both explanations occur

One from Tullius, one from a few notes

[craggy hull]

Hey, here's a question... Cuhlecain, The King of Falkreath, that supposedly got assassinated by a Breton assassin, was he Dragonborn and could he light the Dragon Fires, because if he wasn't, Then only Tiber Septim could've became a true Emperor and light the Dragon Fires to and i quote "CLOSE SHUT THE JAWS... OF OBLIVION".

[glacial scarab]

Cuhlecain was a normal boi as far as we know

And it's not like Cyrodiil cares for Dragonborn Emperor. You need to look for the Dragonguard/Blades or Nords for people who care about Dragonborn.

[craggy hull]

well if Cyrodiil didn't care about DB Emperors why was the Mede Empire after Septim Empire looked at with scrutiny and skepticism, and this is not talking about Titus Mede II and his decisions regarding the Thalmor but Titus Mede I. because many thought Titus Mede I had no right to the throne as he was not Dragonborn.

cool name btw Lich King is epic

[glacial scarab]

Has nothing to do with Dragonborn and everything with the currently ruler.

It's the mess of Imperial lore. They don't care for dragonborn. Even in TES5 Proventus straight up forgets Dragonborn Emperor

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Proventus_Avenicci

Proventus: Hrongar, calm yourself. What does any of this Nord nonsense have to do with our friend here? Capable as he/she may be, I don't see any signs of him/her being this, what, 'Dragonborn.'

What's it mean to be Dragonborn?
"The only thing I remember is the old story of Tiber Septim being called Dragonborn by the Nords, before they switched sides and joined the Empire. No doubt those Greybeards up at High Hrothgar will talk your ear off about it."

[craggy hull]

if they didn't care then why would Varen Auqilarias be worried he wouldn't be seen as a legitimate Emperor in ESO though he honestly would've been a fine emperor till the next dragonborn can claim the throne there is still a stigma around it which in the time of ESO the purpose and importance of a Dragonborn Emperor was not forgotten.

Most scholars agree that the term was first used in connection with the Covenant of Akatosh, when the blessed St. Alessia was given the Amulet of Kings and the Dragonfires in the Temple of the One were first lit. "Akatosh, looking with pity upon the plight of men, drew precious blood from his own heart, and blessed St. Alessia with this blood of Dragon, and made a Covenant that so long as Alessia's generations were true to the dragon blood, Akatosh would endeavor to seal tight the Gates of Oblivion, and to deny the armies of daedra and undead to their enemies, the Daedra-loving Ayleids." Those blessed by Akatosh with "the dragon blood" became known more simply as Dragonborn.

The connection with the rulers of the Empire was thus there from the beginning - only those of the dragon blood were able to wear the Amulet of Kings and light the Dragonfires. All the legitimate rulers of the Empire have been Dragonborn - the Emperors and Empresses of the first Cyrodilic Empire founded by Alessia; Reman Cyrodiil and his heirs; and of course Tiber Septim and his heirs, down to our current Emperor, His Majesty Pelagius Septim IV. - Book of the Dragonborn

[glacial scarab]

He's worried about being seen as a pretender forgetting that the others had events tied to them then being some "Dragonborn". Also no one brings up an issue of the Medes, Longhouse and the Aquilarios Dynasties not being Dragonborn. It ends up making Varen worrying being a unfounded belief.

Alessia had the whole slave rebellion and we barely know anything about Reman other then Pale Pass (TES really doesn't want to write anything about him be it mortal or god). We don't even know Reman's territorial gains other then he at least had High Rock and Skyrim in order to split the Reach between the two.

[craggy hull]

people have had issues with the Mede and the longhouse dynasties but they used conquest and politics to try to solidify their claims which these dynasties ended poorly only lasting 40-200 years while legitimate Dragonborn Empires last almost entire eras. the longhouse Emperors only lasted forty-four years and a lot of people hated them. same with the Medes though the more egregious issues happen with Titus Mede II and his handling of the Empire they only lasted 200yrs that is if Titus Mede II has no Heirs which is not mentioned

which people attribute their failure to rule due to them not being Dragonborn

[glacial scarab]

No one does. Fans might but the game world does not.

[glacial scarab]

So did Tiber. There's a reason he tried to use a Giant Death robot in the end. We have PGE1 from when Tiber was alive and it's all conquest and politics. And we know the Septim and Reman Dynasties had to deal with plenty of internal issues afterwards.

[craggy hull]

ok look just because you say cyrodiil don't care about DB emperors doesn't mean they didn't, they did literally every Legitimate emperor was DB the whole plot of oblivion is that their where no known DB heirs to light the dragonfires besides martin who you have to save to prevent hell let loose if cyrodiil didnt care then losing your DB emperor and his heirs wouldn't be so bad they just put bob off the street and he'll make a fine Emperor and the elder council wouldn't have had a hard time finding an appropriate replacement

[glacial scarab]

We see in game that they don't though.

As a person who does deal with Imperial lore there's a massive problem with Imperial writing in which their book lore never makes it ingame.

You play TES and the people who care for the Dragonborn ends up being Nords and the Blades. What Cyrodillic people care about being the "Chosen of Akatosh"?
It ends up being like how Vivec says "traditionless, raceless, godless culture of the Empire"

Peoples issues with the Medes is to do with Titus Mede the Seconds rule and namely how the Great War went. And if you have bad rule then you'll have issues happening like Emperor Kastav did for the Remans or the many issues the Alessians had (hard to tell if Alessia's bloodline even stops given how little we know of the Alessian Empires Monarchs). Hells once Uriel died issues were going to start up again for the Septims after Tharns shenanigans.

There's also people thinking that the sacred Symbol of the Septim Empire is the Red Dragon Crown.

The Amulet of Kings is a sacred symbol of the Empire. Most people think of the Red Dragon Crown, but that's just jewelry. -Baurus a Blade.

[craggy hull]

well imma stop here this discussion will never end i got to go to bed soon to help my grandma in the morning but this has been a good lore discussion i bid thee thanks 🤝

and now i know Cuhlecain was not a DB as far as we know lol thank you for the answer to my question

[atomic gulch]

Like this

[sharp lantern]

I only recall one note speaking of Cyrodilic reinforcements, and that one only appears if Falkreath is taken by the rebels.

Hardly the norm.

[sharp lantern]

I mean, Skyrim endorsed Titus Mede when he ended the Stormcrown Interegnum.

Most problems the early Medes faced was dealing with the unrest left behind by the Septims.

[glacial scarab]

Though we drove the Emperor's dogs from Fort Neugrad, they still nip at our heels. The chaos in Helgen is bad enough, but now I have word of a new Imperial force assembling in the south, ready to advance on our position as Pale Pass is clear. Send reinforcements, or all our gains will be for naught. - Fort Neugrad Stormcloak missive

We're driving the Stormcloaks back well enough at the moment, but we're already overstretched. That's what comes of trying to win a war with a bare handful of legions. If the Emperor would just give me the reinforcements I've requested!" - General Tullius during the Season Unending quest

[sharp lantern]

Sounds to me like losing Falkreath (and thus the Pale Pass) is reason for Cyrodiil to get involved.

Not that they normally get reinforcements from Cyrodiil.

[glacial scarab]

Or fortifying the pass. The local commander only knows that a force is assembling and is reacting to said information.

[craggy hull]

is there any background to the spectral mudcrab in paradise or is he just an easter egg

[sharp lantern]

Moving those much-needed Legionnaires to Pale Pass just to guard the pass seems off-character; they didn't want to send reinforcements because it'd divert troops, so now they put up a garrison for Talos-knows how long instead of crossing north and aiding Tullius?

[glacial scarab]

Depends on if Pale Pass was being guarded on the Cyrodiil side before Tullius' Legions were pushed out of Falkreath.

[sharp lantern]

I mean "a new Imperial force being assembled" doesn't sound like it was always there.

[glacial scarab]

Yeah can sound like the pass wasn't being protected by any Legion in Cyrodiil and now the Skyrim side in under the control of a hostile side so they need something there.

It's also new to the Commander since we don't really get much idea of Legion presence outside of Tullius' unknown Legions and that "most of the Legion is on the Border with the Dominion"

[craggy hull]

oop wrong chat on that last question that goes to oblivion chat

[sharp lantern]

Why not just send them into Skyrim itself to get rid of Ulfric?

[raw grail]

The one location has different notes depending on whether it's Stormcloak or Imperial, and iirc both mention it. We're not talking about norms, we're talking about sources which mention reasons for the current lack of reinforcements

Ah, the Imperial missive doesn't explicitly mention reinforcements, just that the pass is blocked by avalanche (although in context, it does seem to be the implication imo)

If not reinforcements, then supplies, which is even worse

As ordered, I have assumed command of Fort Neugrad. Morale is low, and the ongoing chaos in Helgen has left our supply lines dangerously vulnerable. Pale Pass is all but closed due to avalanches in the mountains. We need more support, or our garrison will not withstand another attack.

[woven pawn]

Question for the Lore folk to ponder:

Were the Ogres originally something else?

According to the lore, Malacath used to be an Aldmeri deity called Trinimac that Boethia ate and transformed into Malacath.

This process also changed the Orsimer, or Orcs into their current forms.

When this changed happened, is it possible that Ogres were changed from whatever they once were to their current form?

[mossy moss]

I would wager it’s unlikely Trininac’s transformation impacted goblin-ken. The reason he’s associated with them is because he’s the god of outcasts and pariahs, and goblin-ken are certainly outcasts of society.

I do think an interesting question to ponder is, “were ogres once more intelligent than they are now?” We know goblins were when they first encountered the Altmer!

[woven pawn]

Interesting. Kinda like the Falmer before the Dwemer changed them?

[tender ruin]

Ogres still are pretty intelligent, they're just never given an opportunity to express that in the games
Same with giants etc

[mossy moss]

Yes, though the degeneration of goblin-ken was more “natural” so to speak. They devolved as a byproduct of being abused (Altmer used them as slaves) and cast out from society. We also know they were originally taller and didn’t stand with a slouch.

[mossy moss]

All of Tamriel’s races have the capacity for intelligence, but it’s hard to display and embrace that when you’re vilified and cast out. Surviving becomes your #1 priority. Look at the sorry state minotaurs are in by the late Third Era. They were once a standard part of society in the First Era (curse you Alessian Order!).

[glacial scarab]

Is also hard to tell but Tullius says he's not getting reinforcements and Ulfric wants to avoid Tullius getting reinforcements which is why he refuses to attack Solitude when Mede is there and when Mede's cousin is getting married there (Though it looks like the Dark Brotherhood is going to screw him over on that one).

[sharp lantern]

The reason for a lack of reinforcements is preparation for the next war. Hence the local recruitment in Skyrim.

Also, how is it cutting off supplies worse than it cutting off troops?

[raw grail]

Supplies are needed to maintain current troops. Less supplies is worse for the people already there

[sharp lantern]

Sure, but a changing political landscape could also be reason to intervene.

Losing access to Falkreath could be seen as Tullius being unable to quell the rebellion; as Pale Pass is within the Hold and serves as the main border crossing.

[raw grail]

Supply lines being cut off is such a massive blow to any army

[sharp lantern]

That would only work if Pale Pass were the only way to provide supplies. There's still the sea and High Rock to consider.

[raw grail]

There is, but those are a lot less direct

Especially since Cyrodiil has no Northern coast

[sharp lantern]

I mean, sure. But to begin with, the war is mostly fought using local resources. Bryling uses it as criticism against the war.

[raw grail]

That's true and fair

[sharp lantern]

Cut conversation between Ulfric and... Thorsten Cruel-Sea I think? Did talk about most external supplies coming from the south tho.

[glacial scarab]

I think that's a normal one talking about a Navy.

[mossy moss]

Ulfric Stormcloak: “But most of [the Empire’s] supply routes come south, from Cyrodiil."

[mossy moss]

Bryling makes no such criticism about the Empire, according to dialogue listed on UESP.

[rough temple]

Might be a dumb question but does it make lore sense for a vampire to use Restoration magic (to heal in the sun, for example)? I thought Restoration was inherently Aedric, whereas undead like vampires are Daedric in nature

[tight marten]

Makes sense if you need to keep yourself alive, but it’s a poor use of magicka since it also doesn’t replenish under the sunlight.

Most vampires would only go out in the day for absolute emergencies. Or to you know…feed.

[sharp lantern]

Elisif: "As you know, Solitude's coffers are much depleted by the war efforts. Thane Erikur, you have a strong head for business. What do you suggest?"
Erikur: "This is an unfortunate but unavoidable ebb in revenue. But as long as we continue to support the Empire, our sacrifices will be well rewarded."
Bryling: "Listen to you, speaking of sacrifice. You've never gone hungry a day in your life, Erikur!"
Elisif: "And what would my impetuous Thane Bryling suggest, instead?"
Bryling: "Simple. Let the Empire fight its own war, with its own funds, and without hijacking our supplies and soldiers. Let Haafingar rebuild."
Erikur: "My lady... Surely you're not that naïve. Such foolishness would only leave us defenseless. The rebels would storm the palace in an afternoon."
Bryling: "The Stormcloaks only rebel because the Empire uses Skyrim as its personal larder. The more they take, the more support the rebels gain!"
Elisif: "That is quite enough. Perhaps I will raise these issues when I have an audience with General Tullius."

[mossy moss]

Oh, weird. I don’t know why that one’s not on Bryling’s page. Thank you.

[blazing thicket]

@sullen hearth
Gonna drop this here if you want to read it, I was trying to type up a good summary but it was starting to look like an essay and someone already has a good break down

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/1d8594y/a_brief_rundown_on_the_new_lore_from_eso_gold/

[balmy salmon]

Goblins, another race that worships Malacath, lived on Summerset Isles before the Aldmer arrived, and therefore before Trinimac was turned into Malacath.

[sharp lantern]

Orcs also have conflicting origins; as there are accounts of their existance predating the Trinimac/Malacath myth.

Though I guess it is also possible that there are two kinds of Orc; Elven and Beastfolk.

[rough gyro]

What’s the lifespan of beast races

[upper field]

Man sad about ||Ithilia||, but it is what it is.

[tight mason]

does anyone else feel weird getting the crusaders relics as an elf considering pelinals "views" on the elves lol

[balmy salmon]

He was at least able to not wipe out Alessia's Aedra-worshiping Ayleid allies.

[rough temple]

Sanguine Vampiris (Skyrim vamp virus) stifles magicka regen, yes, but with Porphyric Hemophilia (Oblivion vamp virus), magicka still regens in sunlight, not that slowly either—that’s how it works in the Remaster, at least. It’s the reason I’m even considering combatting the sun with magic in the first place. I suppose I can accept vampires using Restoration purely for survival, especially Absorb Health. Really wish I tagged it as a Major Skill… I guess I can read skill books, if only for a small boost.

[crude tiger]

Any resources or suggestions for good questlines to play in TES to learn more about the metaphysics of Mundus, like the nature of time and the Aurbis? i listened to the Written in Uncertainty episodes on these and it’s super cool

[grave saffron]

Does the imperial army (legion I guess) have rangers like the U.S. army has? I want to make an imperial who uses one-handed axes, bows, and light armor and call him an imperial ranger or something.

[mossy moss]

That’s pretty much just the members of the Legion who patrol the forests in Oblivion.

[grave saffron]

The foresters yeah. I would call them rangers. I didn’t know if there was more in lore.

They seem to use heavy armor too like all imperial soldiers in oblivion.

[glacial scarab]

Depends entirely on what "Rangers" are because the Imperial Legions are not modern military and is something between Medieval and Antinquty as a professional army.

It has Elite units called "Imperial Guard" who protect the Emperor and its direct representatives (Governors).
We have no idea what the Legion Foresters are in TES4 because that's the only time they appear.
Battlemages we know are assigned to cohorts of the Legions

[lyric bronze]

Is the ending of oblivion where the hero of kvatch watches Dagon fight Akatosh/Martin an Enantiomorph?

[mossy moss]

In Tiber Septim’s Empire, there’s been less detail about special units. The Imperial Watch/Palace Guards were more than your average soldier, and Imperial Battlemages had special training as well. We know Reman’s Empire had elite soldiers who were trained from a young age, often the scions of noble families. The concept of an elite soldier certainly exists in TES; it simply has not been touched on much.

[glacial scarab]

Only thing we know with Elites was the "Imperial guard" who are the plate wearing bodyguards

[glacial scarab]

There's apparntly Rangers that we hear in TES5 that Fihada in Solitude used to be but there's very little about them.

Jawanan: "Fihada, where did you learn how to make bows so well?"
Fihada: "The same place I learned my charm and quick wits: I used to be an Imperial ranger, my boy!"
Jawanan: "Wish I could learn some of that charm. I'm just good with bows, not people."
Fihada: "You'd make a better Imperial ranger than me. I may have charmed the locals, but my fellow soldiers hated my waggling tongue."

Army wise we know of
Battlemages that are assigned to the Cohorts of the Legion
The "Imperial Guard" who are the Elite who bodyguard the Emperor and their Governors they wear Silver plate that can be seen in TES3 and 4.
Scouts
Then your usual soldiers who will make up the Cohorts of the Legions.

Things we know very little of
Legion Foresters. They're just there in TES4 probably due to the ithilien rangers
Imperial Ranger just one name drop

[balmy schooner]

Which game has this information?

[grave saffron]

Thanks I could have sworn I remembered something like that from Skyrim!

[sullen hearth]

Oooh thank you! Sorry i didn't see this till just now haha, I'll give it a read when i get my break

[sharp lantern]

IIRC it's the book Remanada

[stiff cradle]

Oblivion is the first that I know of, but any game that has the Remanada has it

Since Oblivion is currently the game everyone is playing, there's a copy of the Remanada in Cloud Ruler if I recall correctly

[tight marten]

I still can’t believe it’s canon that Saint Alessia did it with a Minotaur….

[stiff cradle]

When it comes to Elder Scrolls mythology, whatever is written down is canon to some extent. Usually because it's really funny and insane, so it's more fun to assume it's canon

[balmy salmon]

I love how it's canon that one of Molag Bal's servants was so thirsty for Flame Atronachs, he scried over 37000 planes of Oblivion to find a variant that wouldn't accidentally melt Molag Bal's ice sculptures.

[glacial scarab]

Well canon in that it's in a book. Not canon as in accurate.

[stiff cradle]

Its also in a book that Vivec bit Molag Bal's 'manhood' off (I had to censor it cuz of the automod) and made it into a spear. The book was written by Vivec though, so I'm inclined to believe it. Again, rule of funny

[glacial scarab]

Like Hulk Hogan. It's canon that he said he wrestled 400 days in a year but it is not canon that there's 400 days in a year.

[stiff cradle]

I mean Hulk Hogan was in a dragon break tho

[glacial scarab]

He is the Dragon Break

[stiff cradle]

This is a world where timelines just give up trying to make sense, where Dwarves make a Gundam, and where a god casually makes it rain fire dogs to fulfil a prophecy he finds silly. Nothing is out of the realm of feasibility for this universe

The only time we should really question things in this universe is when there are contradicting sources (IE Tiber Septim's entire life)

[glacial scarab]

We should question things anyway then just accepting stuff because "cool story".

[nova river]

I tried to make that village see reason but they just....

[jovial monolith]

Does anyone know what the mannish counterpart of y'ffre is?

[brisk perch]

Dibella is most likely Y'ffre, the male version of Y'ffre is the Altmeri Jephre or the Khajiiti Y'ffer

[woeful gyro]

Isn’t vivec notorious for lies and half truths

[errant sage]

What's the connection between Kynareth and Peryite? Surely there has to be one if she keeps gifting him skeever souls.

[old zodiac]

Is it ever confirmed in-game that the HoK is sort of a reincarnation or second attempt at Pelinal, or is it just hinted at?

I'm an Altmer in this run and it seemed fitting to think that the Divines would put him in an Elf body to make a point about his genocidal tendencies

Or did the HoK just mantle him during the NoN quests?

[jovial monolith]

Diabella?????

[sharp lantern]

You become the Divine Crusader, but you don't become Pelinal.

[lyric bronze]

Does Jyggalag have any connections to Lyg?

[sharp lantern]

Lyggalag

But no, I don't think he does.\

[lyric bronze]

I was reading a thing about lyg and this segment sounds similar to Jygs name so I was wondering if there’s a connection there

[brisk perch]

Lyg is related to one of the Magne Ge, Xero-Lyg as well, apparently. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Nine_Coruscations,_Volume_II

[uncut hatch]

Not necessarily ES lore, but is there any background on the design of locks, specifically in Oblivion's lockpicking minigame? They appear to be based on ancient Roman or Egyptian locks with some modern elements, but I can't find anything on it and I've fallen down a rabbit hole trying to wrap my head around it

They look like functional locks and I'm wondering if it's possible to recreate them in person

basically a fancier version of this sort of lock

[raw grail]

Yeah. Modern locks are very similar but have the addition of pins

Theoretically it would make sense to me

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Proper_Lock_Design
This is the main source I think of when it comes to TES locks

I wanted the lore space version but oh well

[proven moss]

IDK about anyone at Bethesda, but I would be sooo tempted to put in a lockpicking lawyer reference

[sullen meteor]

Is there any in-universe lore reasons given to why Dwarven armor found in the provinces of Morrowind, Cyrodiil, and Skyrim all look so different?

[full dew]

If I remember correctly it was explained in eso as just cultural differences related to their relative provinces, similar to how colovians and nibenese have similar but different styles in architecture

Architecturally the Dwemer ruins look vastly different in the Alik’r desert from say western skyrim for instance

[sullen meteor]

Ah that makes. Kind of like how Canadians and Americans share the same Heritage and parent country but have different cultures?

[full dew]

Pretty much

[glacial scarab]

Not entirely.

Like I think the TES3 dwemer armour is meant to be like scrap put together or something. It's hard to tell when art style changes every game.

Though not as hard when trying to tell anything Imperial given they have no consistent architecture as TES4 gave up on them.

[mossy moss]

ESO tried to explain it lore-wise, but the honest explanation is that they simply want diversity. It would get dreadfully dull as a player to have armor sets look the exact same in every game.

But they do try and take cultural inspiration for the region into account. Skyrim’s standard armor sets feel very Nordic.

[heavy pine]

I love that the banishing of alduin into the 4th era happened before the Oblivion crisis and blades after beating the main quest say ||they are going to go back to their original purpose of waiting for the Dragonborn to return||, it's such a great tease for skyrim.

Actually does the banishing of Alduin happen before the events of Elder Scrolls Online?

On that, is elder scrolls online considered canon?

[clever goblet]

ESO is canon, and the banishing of Alduin happened sometime in the Merethic era I believe so way before ESO

[heavy pine]

Isn't ESO set in the first Era though?

[clever goblet]

Second era

[heavy pine]

Ohhhh, so no games take place before the second era? That's a shame.

Is tamriel just a continent or is it the only landmass on nirn?

[robust trout]

just a continent, there's a few other landmasses mentioned

[heavy pine]

That's awesome. I wanna see em

[normal hill]

Random:

I always had this head/fan fiction of a grandmaster thief that trys to steal the skeleton key to unlock the door to nocturnal's heart to steal it and is an agitator/antagonist because he constantly gets in and out pacts with her by altering elder scrolls (forging the numbers in the cosmic books/ledger as he calls it).

He gets his comeuppance eventually when mephala sets him up by impersonating Nocturnal in one of her own schemes

[sullen meteor]

We don't actually know what the shape of the other continents look like but this is a fan made map but all the names are correct.

[heavy pine]

That's really cool, does that mean the high elves are from admeris?

[sullen meteor]

Unfortunately Elder Scrolls will likely never leave Tamriel. So we'll never actually see Akavir in a game, which sometimes makes me sad because they have really cool races in lore. Monkey Folk (Tang Mo), Tiger people (Ka'Po'Tun), snake people (Tsaesci), and giant ice demons (Kamal)

[sullen meteor]

Yes the Aldmer are originally from Aldmeris

[heavy pine]

We gotta kick them back to where they belong!!!!!

[heavy pine]

Maybe in the future we'll see them

[sullen meteor]

As far as I'm aware the original Aldmer settled in Summerset Isles. Split off into different secs, the ones that stayed in the isles became the Altmer, the ones that left for Morrowind called the Chimer later became the Dunmer, The group that moved to Cyrodiil became Ayleids.

However I do not believe the Dwemer and Bosmer have a connection to the Aldmer.

Not sure about the Falmer either.

[brisk perch]

The dawn era and ordering events then is an exercise in madness, really. It's intentionally vague and due to time being non-linear, even if for one person's perspective things happened in one order, it didn't actually happen in that order.

[clever goblet]

Slight problem, Aldmeris is kinda a “lost” continent

[heavy pine]

Did it go under?

[brisk perch]

Aldmeris might be sunken into the ocean or not actually physically on Nirn anymore, if it ever existed physically
Sinking into the ocean is both literal and metaphorical, since Water in The Elder Scrolls canon is literally the memories of existence.

[heavy pine]

Ohhhh

[sharp lantern]

Aldmeris is a mixed bag on whether it exists or not. According to myth, it is where all elves came from and is now lost... somehow.

[rough temple]

Elf Africa

[proven moss]

The Ayleids discovered that Tamriel was Aldmeris

[rough temple]

What if Aldmeris was in the Void (space)? Ayleids always gave me alien vibes, would be cool if elves could trace their origins off-world imo. I understand there’s similar lore regarding Argonians as well

[cunning aurora]

how does it make sense that you can conjure a lich in oblivion

[bright bluff]

i need an elder scrolls lore podcast or something

[balmy salmon]

Perhaps they're being conjured from a plane of Oblivion where undead reside, like the Soul Cairn or Coldharbour.

[quartz cosmos]

So what's all over in Valenwood? Is it just Elf Central?

[cunning aurora]

but a lich isn't a regular undead

their souls don't get trapped in the soul cairn if i recall

[raw grail]

I could imagine literally just forcing a powerful Daedra to take the shape

Same way we do it with familiars and bound weapons

[proven moss]

Lore-wise you can technically conjure anything.

Conjuring thoughts is a thing, for example. I think that might be from Doors to Oblivion?

[cunning aurora]

Ill be reading that once i get my hands on it in game

[balmy salmon]

Undead still sometimes reside in Oblivion. In ESO, the lich Gedna Revel is one of the possible Dark Anchor bosses, and the Greymoor and Markarth DLCs are about vampires that were bound to Coldharbour and don't want to go back.

[mossy moss]

All vampires are bound to Coldharbour. Rada al-Saran was trying to save his ‘people’ from the clutches of Molag Bal by severing the connection between their souls and him.

[cunning aurora]

the thing is there are liches in coldharbour due ot the cult of worms and its ties to molag bal but the soul of the lich is usually bound to certain objects if i understoof the lore correctly

so maybe you are calling upon "worm litches" from molag bals realm

[tight marten]

So which Daedric prince or divine claims the Dragonborn when they eventually die?

[woeful gyro]

Idk they’re basically a demi god they can probably just go where they want

[candid smelt]

In the times of old

the dragons once flew

[lapis thorn]

So can someone explain to me how is it that during the events of the Oblvion Crisis, the Mages Guild has banned the practice of necromancy, and yet we have Borissean the Arcane University's Master Spellmaker selling you a spell to summon a Lich and a Gloom Wraith, and Athragar of the Chorrol's Mages Guild chapter selling you the majority of Undead summons available with Alberic Litte of the same chapter selling you the basics if you haven't chosen Conjuration as a major skill? So how are these three people of the Mages Guild aren't forced out like everyone else?

The way I can possibly see this as a sort of loop hole situation, is that these spells and in part every undead summon spell you the player casts, is in the same similar manner of a familiar, where while it looks and acts like an undead technically, it is not an undead creature and therefore not considered Necromancy. So this supposed Lich for example for all intended purposes could possibly be the spirit of a daedra manifested into a Lich via Conjuration. Meanwhile those outside the Mages Guild or specifically the Cult of Worms are using actual Necromancy...but then how are THEY summoning Undead?

If they themselves are practitioners of Necromancy, then they would perform such magic instead of having to use the mentioned loop hole of summoning a daedra to have it form into an Undead. There is the possibility that they're summoning undead via from the other planes of Oblivion like Coldharbour, but would that still be considered Necromancy is you are just summoning an undead creature from Oblivion? Or perhaps it is similar to the spell Pride of Hirstaang which as far as I'm aware there aren't many Black Bears to be found in Oblivion so these Undead could also just have been taken from somewhere in Nirn, but it still goes back on the same question if this is Necromancy or just mere Conjuration flavored as Necromancy if all you're doing is just calling out a Lich from some dark tower somewhere?

[heavy pine]

Am I getting this right?

The greymarch is basically just Sheogorath regaining his sanity?

[heady wave]

Contextually probably Mora, if we're gonna treat the events of the DLC as "definitely happening with the Dragonborn as a part of them" like other DLCs, only because Mora officially asserts the player as their Champion regardless of any choice you can make. Beth will probably sweep the LDB under the rug and pretend they don't exist for ES6 for the most part, so an official answer probably won't follow.

Game logic is kinda hard to follow because realistically there wouldn't be a "tug of war" between the Princes/other afterlives for the LDB mainly because they only do some work to claim their artifacts for use, that doesn't exactly mean the LDB worships them.

[proven moss]

Argument by Master gra-Kogg: The Guild already permits some forms of Necromancy. The ‘Schools’ of magicka are, as we know, artificial constructs, originally formulated by Vanus Galerion to divide and thereby simplify study. They have changed many times throughout the years, but at their heart, every Master knows, they are all linked together. When a student of Conjuration summons a guardian ghost, he is touching on the School of Necromancy. When a student of Enchantment uses a trapped soul, he too may be considered guilty of a Black Art. The School of Mysticism, as I have stated before, has some kinship with Necromancy as well. To state that students may not learn the ways of Necromancy is to stifle common skills in the other, more historically legitimate Schools of the Guild.
from The Black Arts on Trial

So, in Oblivion, all summons of undead are considered Conjuration, even when Necromancers do it

The only true necromancy you can do is with the Staff of Worms (not counting quests in the Shivering Isles)

The undead you find that aren't summoned, we can probably consider the product of true necromancy.

[cunning aurora]

The thing is lore wise the line between what counts as necromancy and what doesnt is a bit blurry to begin with. In Morrowind the use of the ghostfence is arugably a form of necromancy since it uses the souls of the dead to be kept going. The conjuration of ancestral ghosts is technically necromancy but isn't regarded as such because in dunmer culture it just is a different thing.

This is from "The Dark Arts On Trial":

"Argument by Master gra-Kogg: The Guild already permits some forms of Necromancy. The 'Schools' of magicka are, as we know, artificial constructs, originally formulated by Vanus Galerion to divide and thereby simplify study. They have changed many times throughout the years, but at their heart, every Master knows, they are all linked together. When a student of Conjuration summons a guardian ghost, he is touching on the School of Necromancy. When a student of Enchantment uses a trapped soul, he too may be considered guilty of a Black Art. The School of Mysticism, as I have stated before, has some kinship with Necromancy as well. To state that students may not learn the ways of Necromancy is to stifle common skills in the other, more historically legitimate Schools of the Guild.

Counter-Argument by Master Karlyss: Yes, the Schools are intertwined, but the standard spells of each School have passed the proof of time. We know that a student of Mysticism, properly instructed, will not be permanently harmed by his experience. In many ways, it is a question of extremes - how far we would permit our studies to take us. Necromancy by its nature relies on the practitioner going further into the darkness than is wise, virtually guaranteeing his destruction. It has no place in the Mages Guild."

It's literally necromancy, the guild is just being hypocritical. Officially, they don't recognize it as such because the schools as we observe them in the game are observatory classifications in an almost scientific manner, not 100% the truth.

[cunning aurora]

Oh sorry didn't read this

[proven moss]

If you want an example of the type of necromancy the guild is banning, On the Preparation of a Corpse is the standard.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/preparation-corpse

[proven moss]

No sweat, we had the same idea. 😁

[cunning aurora]

The main thing that makes up necromancers as we know them is the meddling with the souls of humans and resurrection.
You can kinda draw the connection (Black Soul Gems --> Dark Arts etc etc)
Especially binding said souls to yourself permanently in eternal servitude.

the draugr you see in skyrim are also a form of necromancy if you wanna look at it that way. Their souls are frequently bound to their dragon priests, which are just a specific type of lich, that feed on the souls of those draugr to draw power and to sustain themselves.

This all kinda makes me wish that enchanting still existed in oblivion the way it did in morrowind because then I could actually play as a proper necromancer

[lapis thorn]

So how would only explain these three exemptions of Mages Guild members selling Summon Undead spells in a world sense?\

[cunning aurora]

The guild turning a blind eye perhaps? In morrowind there's this whole thing with the guild having a monopoly on magic training and selling spells, which leads to a rivalry between them and the house telvanni. Similarly, they might not want necromancy to happen outside the guild because it's less controllable. Not to mention that the guild doesn't condone the use of black soul gems. Furthermore, unlike in Morrowind, you are unable to bind summons to your enchanted gear which is an integral part of necromancy. They could justify the temporary conjuration of revenants as just regular conjuration. The summoned subject doesn't remain forever therefore it's not the same type of subjugation.

[lapis thorn]

That would make sense, given that the summoned revenant is only temporary, one could argue that while it does fall under the label of necromancy it is not truly necromancy but simple conjuration magic. And as mentioned before with the Dark Elves, while they have the ability to call forth an ancestral spirit to aid them, that in of itself is not technically necromancy.

So while there is a bit of bias bureaucracy within the Mages Guild, they seem to have some reasonable sense of laws within the guild to help define what makes a spell be considered just Conjuration or Necromancy. That so long as the Undead creature is only a temporary companion that was summoned and is not bound to an object via enchantments, then it would be okay, but such magic must only be taught by registered professionals within the Conjuration arts.

[cunning aurora]

Yeah and a lot of necromancers resort to relying on illegal methods of obtaining servants like slaying the people they wanna subjugate or soul trap

[lapis thorn]

Which is where Black Soul Gems falls in, with the addition that while Soul Trapping is okay within the guild, so long as it is not used to fill Black Soul Gems with black souls, then you are okay.

[cunning aurora]

yeah but why would you use black soul gems if not to trap black souls so it's pretty incriminating

[lapis thorn]

Especially in the circumstances that a Grand Soul Gem can suffice just as well, though much harder to fill since it requires Grand Souls to fill instead of simply killing another humanoid creature to fill it. A quantity over quality situation.

[sharp lantern]

Black soul gems are fine, outlaws don't have rights anyway

[cunning aurora]

Yeah
Its still pretty crazy that you can just summon a lich and that the mages guild sells you that spell because a lich is literally a necromancer who became immortal. I think they just went like dude wouldnt it be cool if there was a spell to summon a lich with without thinking about lore

[lapis thorn]

Yeah, gameplay wise it sounds reasonable. Like I ain't gonna argue about how cool it is to simply summon a Lich of all things out of pocket whenever I want, but world lore wise it seems hypocritical.

[cunning aurora]

they are not fine. a high ranking mages guild member got into serious trouble because he had black soul gems

[cunning aurora]

I mean there are supposedly former worm cult members stuck with molag bal so maybe you just summon them from there

molag bal surely finds it amusing because the worm cult did kinda double cross him in the past

[proven moss]

Well you're allowed to summon daedra too and plenty of daedra are pretty nasty

[cunning aurora]

yeah but daedra worship is not as taboo as necromancy

[proven moss]

Spider Daedra are known (in lore) to attack their summoner

[sharp lantern]

Cuz Hannibal Traven was waging an illegal war against a legal school of magic.

By Imperial law, necromancy is legal.

[lapis thorn]

Yeah that was one of the potential loop holes I figured they could use as an explanation, that while yes it is a Lich, it still falls under the category of summoning a creature from Oblivion.

[proven moss]

Yeah this is an important point. There are necromancers that (supposedly) work for the Empire

I say supposedly because we don't actually encounter any in Oblivion. But lore-wise they're there.

[cunning aurora]

youre right i forgot about thst

[proven moss]

The Infernal City novel gives an idea what they might be used for (investigating murders)

Because you can apparently interrogate ghosts

[sharp lantern]

We're told in TES III how necromancy is legal in the Empire - just highly regulated.

Of course, that "highly regulated" only applies to citizens with rights... which outlaws don't have.

That creates a loophole for necromancers; they can train their craft without worry so long as they kill bandits and the like for the corpses.

[cunning aurora]

but killing armed bandits can be hard so it makes sense for novice necromancers to turn to civilians because a lot of necromancers tend to be sadistic megalomaniacs

[sharp lantern]

I mean, I haven't seen a necromancer who resurrected citizens yet.

Barring N'Gasta, but he's a sload so...

[cunning aurora]

you get jumped frequently by necromancers in the games

[sharp lantern]

Suppose that's true.

[cunning aurora]

and you meet more necromancers that do that than you do that do not

[proven moss]

I think the Empire is recorded as having used undead to booster their armies at various points. I think the Alessians of the 1st Era do. And the Wolf Queen does as part of the imperial civil war

[sharp lantern]

Then again, you also meet more hostile conjurers and other wizards than peaceful ones so 🤷‍♂️

[cunning aurora]

I usually join the mages guild so I disagree on that as well

[woeful gyro]

That’s pretty metal if true

[cunning aurora]

usually the people you meet that sell spells and the such are mages and those are not hostiles.

[sharp lantern]

There are 15 locations in Oblivion featuring hostile conjurers, and there are lord-knows how many in Skyrim featuring hostile wizards in general.

[cunning aurora]

Yeah skyrim has a ton of evil mages, loads of which are necromancers, but in morrowind and in oblivion the amount is pretty small. In morrowind there's more than in oblivion but dunmer are also have more affinity for magic + one of the great houses is all about magic

idk what all the mages are doing Skyrim necromancers at least make sense cuz they wanna take advantage of the civil war

[mossy moss]

Clearly it’s to make the player suffer because mages in Skyrim are cheaters. 😂

[cunning aurora]

Its weird how there's so many mages in skyrim. Maybe it's all the people that were ostracized by society because nords hate magic so they had their own little joker arcs and wish to take revenge on the world as a whole

[rotund dust]

I wonder if TES VI will give us any more insight into the dwemer? I've been obsessed with the mystery of their disappearance since like 2011

[hot karma]

Has anyone checked Oblivion Remastered's night sky to see if the constellations still match up with the date?

[glacial scarab]

Well that's if the Mages Guild hasn't already arrested or killed them yet.

[cunning aurora]

Would be cool if there were quests where you'd have to do genuine archeological work

cuz one thing that always bothered me is the lack of research you do when joining like the mages guild or stuff like that

[zealous bay]

I mean in Skyrim you kinda do

It’s like fantastical archeological work but you kinda do

[cunning aurora]

you do it in oblivion and morrowind too I just wish there was a project you'd have to conduct by yourself including research and everything

cuz you usually only help out others

[rotund dust]

EpicNate has a really good video on the dwemer and his research suggests they got sucked off into a plane of oblivion. It kinda makes sense

[sharp lantern]

I believe they burned to death.

[fading flame]

Is there any reason why Dawnfang/Duskfang isn't a daedric artifact of Sheogorath? I mean, it would be a perfect item to fit the dichotomy of sheogorath. Mania and Dimentia.

[mossy moss]

As Woah said, it’s not Sheogorath who gives it to you. An Orc adventurer entered the Shivering Isles with it, and you got it as a reward for driving them insane and/or killing them.

[fading flame]

I know, what I am saying is that he should make it one in future games. Malacath's hammer and peryites shield aren't made by them.

[mossy moss]

It’s never been associated with Sheogorath directly and is a specific type of blade made by the Tsaesci. It driving the wielder insane with time is something they did, so it has an indirect association with Sheogorath through that.

[mossy moss]

Probably because who wants to lose the Wabbajack? XD

Talk about a perfect artifact for the Mad God.

As far as we know, CC is canon. Every protagonist loses their artifacts after the game is over. It’d be a bit boring otherwise.

[proven moss]

I agree with Siper. It should show up as a reward from Sheogorath at some point. A little more artifact diversity from game to game is appreciated

[fading flame]

daedric princes are like males friends. They like... punch each other and then are still friends after. Or just don't do drama

[woeful gyro]

I thought the daedra were more similar gods of irl mythos, where they’re petulant and cruel, like children

[fading flame]

Sheogorath is most certainly the strongest prince imo.

[mossy moss]

My belief is that Princes care but are only capable of showing said care in ways that are incomprehensible to the mortal mind and often seem cruel and unjust in action.

Malacath often seems like an unapologetic tyrant, but it’s his way of showing he cares because his people need to be strong. If they can’t show him their strength, they aren’t worthy of his ‘love.’

Failing to be strong is failing him in his eyes.

[fading flame]

I am sad, that there is not a cannon map of akavir

[mossy moss]

Uriel V might have made a map of strategic cannon bombardment sites, but I’m not sure. 😜

[woeful gyro]

Nearly all of them or their followers say that they’re the strongest/oldest/most important, don’t they?

But yeah afaik the others go out of their way to not mess with Sheo. Jyggalag ptsd maybe??

[fading flame]

Well, a mortal... aka the guy who did all of Martin's work btw, whose seen gods. then becomes Sheogorath and gets all the power of the shivering isles not needing to use any of his own to make it. sounds like a strong power boost.