elder-scrolls-lore

[fathom jewel]

Right - it was Sheo and Jiggy who who throw empty beer cups and potato chips at each other from across the room. But Ithelia is going to be part of this now as well, and she'll get into the food fight with both of them - Jiggy because he wants everything to be linear and deterministic, Sheo because he believes free will is the source of choice and hence randomness/complexity of potential outcomes (which Ithelia contradicts, since altering timelines is solely within her grasp.) You'd think Mephala would jump in on such a food fight, and eventually Herma Mora as well.

Maybe it's better if the party invitation list is paired down to exclude them all.

[upper field]

I'm interested to know why Peryite opposed Mora's plan. Vaermina I get because it involves tampering with her own memories (which she hates), but why Peryite?

[fast spruce]

Peryite is the "wait for me!" kid of the Daedric Prince group. Maybe just gets included for sympathy. 🤷‍♀️
He is the taskmaster, associated with natural order. His form is fitting since dragons embody order throughout elder scrolls lore. Mora is the prince of fate and knowledge. On a whole, it would seem these two allies because Mora at core is an observer and collector of knowledge, not a manipulator. However, Mora does indeed try to mess with fate throughout the storyline, thus involving Peryite who dislikes disruption of natural order, this includes things like timespaces.

[fathom jewel]

It could be that since he's the weakest of all the Daedric deities, he zealously protects what privileges and zones of authority he has.

[plain cosmos]

He is viewed by MORTALS as the weakest. Those in Oblivion seem to have a different view of him.

But Mortals also think the Aedra are worth worshipping, so.... You know, they aren't exactly good judges.

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/godzilla-godzilla-vs-spacegodzilla-little-godzilla-infant-monster-bubble-beam-gif-23833466

[dark palm]

Given peryite’s domain, would he be chill if you were a conservationist?

[plain cosmos]

He is basically the god of conservation. Maintain the balance of creation and destruction.

[gaunt bear]

Here’s something else I’d like to share from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction, featuring Peryite:

Because of what the ashes of Andraste were capable of doing, the followers of Peryite repeatedly attacked their resting place (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Ruined_Temple||), which gradually warped Andraste’s followers into the dragon-worshiping cult they were known as when Tarin (my Nerevarine) and Aedan (my Hero of Ferelden) arrived there.

I’ve also got that Dagoth Ur, curious about the myth of Andraste’s Ashes, sent Dagoth Gares to investigate (and thereby slaughter the dragon worshippers, keeping the urn pure, and inflict Tarin with Corprus there), but the urn containing the ashes vanished before they could be tested on Corprus victims, but not before Aedan saved a pinch of the ashes to cure Arl Eamon of Redcliffe.

[robust lintel]

In a way, we all sound like daedric princes in our conversation from a collection of unique personalities, agreeing and disagreeing. A fundamentally dysfunctional family of sorts

[brisk perch]

Literally and figuratively, depending on who you ask in-universe

[upper field]

So remind me, besides the Khajiit who else practiced Martial Arts?

[plain cosmos]

Everyone does. Most just use weapons in their martial arts.

[upper field]

Ah.

[plain cosmos]

Martial Arts are simply any sort of martial combat tradition. Technically, modern Parade Drill is a martial art.

Most people's are going to have a wide range of martial arts. From armed to unarmed.

The only likely exception would be the Bosmer, since they don't typically have any sort of formalised military or regimented training. Everyone else is going to have various martial arts both for armed and unarmed combat.

[upper field]

Gotcha. I was thinking in particular to unarmed combat.

[raw grail]

I remember reading about Dunmer (such as among Dissident Priests) and Imperial (such as among mage organizations, like the Mages Guild) unarmed martial artists being a thing, but primarily based upon Khajiit martial arts

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:An-Deesei

There's also this book by idk who
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Way_of_the_Exposed_Palm

Movarth Piquine is also allegedly very skilled in unarmed combat, according to Immortal Blood. It's even a hand to hand skill book in Oblivion

[fathom jewel]

Martial arts exist in almost every culture on earth in one for or another. Even stone age tribes have (or have had) martial traditions that are handed down to the next generation. Tribesmen in the back-jungles and mountains of Indonesia and in the depths of the Amazon forest have traditions where teenagers may be instructed as a group as part of their transition into full fledged manhood and acceptance as such by the tribe. Tribal fathers will take their sons hunting from an early age to teach them how to move silently, track game, set traps and use weapons such as bows and spears to collect meat for the family, and hunting skills closely parallel martial ones. The aboriginal tribes in the American midwest and rocky mountain west often formed martial societies within their nations that had deliberate qualification and training programs. There are many, many different styles of wrestling and grappling, which is probably the most widespread martial discipline in human history. Even in their 'sportified' versions (such as Olympian Freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling, Olympic boxing or international Judo), there are many techniques directly based on the more dangerous, damaging and lethal martial techniques for which they were originally developed. It stands to reason that there are many martial disciplines and traditions scattered across Tamriel. The formality of these disciplines and the existence of dedicated schools will, of course, vary widely. My guess is that the Dunmer and Redguard have such schools (though I'm not aware of any mention of them in the lore.) I'm not as sure about the rest of the tribes. I'm not well versed on the lore for each tribe on this topic.

[proven moss]

I think all the races probably have an unarmed martial tradition

[robust lintel]

Martial arts with a tail that whips like an alligator

[fathom jewel]

I agree, man. Guaranteed that they would all have at least one wrestling/grappling 'style.' In any place where there's lots of agriculture and those farm regions have historically been threatened by raids from nomadic horsemen, you'll see some sort of fighting style that includes kicking, like the southern kung fu styles and korea's tai kwan do. Many places will have something akin to boxing as well, and when that gets combined with kicking techniques and some level of grappling, you start getting arts like pankratos, kung fu, karate, thai boxing and such.

[hexed tartan]

i tend to study this stuff

There are three named dunmeri martial arts so far

Marshmerrow, Salt Rice, and Golden Reed.

Ansei Shehai Shen She Ru is the redguard sword ryu.

I made a nordic wrestling myself

"Stunhr Glíma", named for Stuhn.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glima

[hexed tartan]

grappling will be more prevalent for knights, dreadnoughts, and behemoths. Hot regions will produce better runners and strikers.

I have studied Wrestling, TKD, JKD, Karate, Kenjutsu, Sinawali, 5 animal stances, and multiple exotic weapons like escrima, chaku, and tonfa.

I think the games are just underfilled. More races need martial arts. With and without weapons. Bretons might not do too well unarmed, I imagine, but make up for it in magicka.

[upper field]

Wow nice.

[raw grail]

These are the 3 dissident priest martial arts I was talking about they're inspired by Khajiiti practice

[hexed tartan]

Yep, especially Marshmerrow.

[raw grail]

Martial arts: "The unarmed, unarmored martial arts traditions of the Marshmerrow, Salt Rice, and Golden Reed societies of the Dissident Priest, patterned on the 'Rain-of-Sand' fighting styles of Elsweyr, are slow to be adopted in the Empire, associated as they are with the ascetic renunciation of worldly wealth and material goods, and the rigid disciplines and mystical philosophies so alien to the Imperial West."

[hexed tartan]

Rawlith Khaj

[raw grail]

Unarmored: "Monks dedicated to the ascetic philosophies of Elsweyr have long cultivated the unarmored martial arts traditions called the 'Rain-of-Sand' fighting styles. The Mages Guild and other societies have had some success adapting these styles for self-defense training of wizards and other armor-averse vocations. Students of the unarmored styles wear little to no armor, and count on evasion or deflection to avoid injury."

[hexed tartan]

mostly aikijiujutsu/hapkido and swordform!

[raw grail]

Shockingly, this book makes no mention of Khajiiti martial arts

[raw grail]

I don't think that necessarily means they weren't inspired by Khajiiti martial arts, it could just go unmentioned anyways

[hexed tartan]

i have claw dance emotes on eso. I am truuuu fan.

[raw grail]

Ngl I didn't even realize there were claw dance emotes

Ooh, interesting context to consider in regard to martial arts: a lot of unarmed martial arts are based on armed martial arts, and adapt the movements to easily enough transfer between the two

[gaunt bear]

I’d like to see that as an official VC add-on. I’d finally get the chance to clobber someone with my bare hands in a way that really matters.

[fathom jewel]

We've stumbled into a complex and nuanced topic here.

[hexed tartan]

yes, notably Hapkido, Aikido, and Muto Ryu ostensibly

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itto_Shoden_Muto-ryu

[raw grail]

I'm so glad someone who knows what they're talking about is here to provide detail on the random bits and pieces that we've shared, this is always fun

[raw grail]

Best way for this to go 👏

[hexed tartan]

(itto, one sword, ryu school or style)

(Mu means Nothing or No)

[raw grail]

For anyone who didn't notice it, compare those martial art names to the Yokudan Way of the Sword, properly named here

Yokudans take a lot more Japanese influence than is sometimes immediately obvious

[hexed tartan]

Yeah, Yokudan is more based in dualwielding philosophy and form actually

Niten Ichi Ryu. But the heuristics are muto ryu

or aikido

[raw grail]

The Book of Circles is also directly inspired - almost copied - from the Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi

[raw grail]

Which also doubles down on this association

[hexed tartan]

Founder of Niten ichi Ryu

yeah.

(Two heavens, One Sword)

[raw grail]

The whole concept of ansei is super similar to the concept of kensei

[hexed tartan]

thats why they sound so similar

Like bravil and Brazil. Cant tell me thats an accident

anu is a dreaming latino dbz fan canon

[raw grail]

Ansei are even sometimes called sword saints

[hexed tartan]

Which is the translation for both words.

[raw grail]

Which if I'm not mistaken, is literally the translation of kensei?

[hexed tartan]

Ansei is Yoku for sword saint, as Kensei is nihongo.

[raw grail]

It's fun

I really hope none of this is just shoved to the side if tes6 is in Hammerfell

I so badly want this stuff to be relevant xD

[fathom jewel]

Personal opinion (which I will bring back to a thoroughly ES-based discussion:) A broad definition of 'martial arts' encompasses any style of combat practiced in any culture or society that needs to use state-sanctioned violence in order to preserve law and order or the basic integrity of that society and its institutions. With that in mind, european fencing, olympic wrestling, training for the roman legionnaires or greek hoplites, all fall under the 'martial arts' umbrella. The big difference I can immediately see between those and the combat arts practiced in the Far East - Silat, Kung Fu, Karate, Jujutsu and many others - is that many of the Eastern systems tend to be infused with religious practices and customs. When you think about it, this makes perfect sense. Fighting tends to attract the most aggressive males (and what makes them more aggressive than their peers is a whole other discussion.) These fighters will eventually encounter situations that leave a profound and damaging emotional/psychological impression on them. The religious aspects of certain martial arts are an extension of training - they are intended to help the practitioner deal with the potentially mind-freezing fear associated with fighting, as well as deal constructively with the consequences. In this way, they do a more thorough job of integrating these potentially destructive and more naturally violent individuals into productive and cooperative roles in society.

So how does this relate to ES? Well, any of the provinces where war (either externally imposed or as the result of internal civil frictions) is a commonplace occurence in the history of that province will need to have established schools of armed and unarmed combat (both are needed as they complement each other.) Some will integrate religious customs with those schools for the above mentioned reasons. So we really should see martial arts (with or without religious infusions) all over Tamriel. I would argue that the Thu'um is one such art.

[raw grail]

Yes! Absolutely

Well, small clarification: not specifically Thu'um

Rather, the Way of the Voice, and the ideology surrounding the Thu'um which predated it

But still, I'm in total agreement

[fathom jewel]

That's a helluva book. I've read it three times and still don't think I understand half of it. I think I'd have to become Zatoichi to really get it.

[raw grail]

xD

I've unfortunately only read the Book of Circles. I haven't tried the Book of Five Rings yet

[hexed tartan]

lets not forget the di libieri germano florentine styles

made this two months ago. He's fighting a hollowfaced man in the windhelm arena rn

[fathom jewel]

You must get a copy of it. Upon reading it, I actually received the impression that Musashi might be very cool to hang out with or have a chat over a good meal. It's clear he had an extraordinary mind. Extremely impressive. Wait til you get to the end - you will see what a tremendous person he must have been. There's no question he was not simply an extremely expert and efficient killer - he was vastly more than that.

[hexed tartan]

yes. Pankhajiiti religions have the Way/dao vibe to it as well.

[raw grail]

Huh... Wonder if there's a draconic translation of "Way of the Voice"

[hexed tartan]

It was man's idea. Or Kyne's.

[hexed tartan]

bro wait til he reads Book Earth the third time

[raw grail]

Imo most signs point to it being an invention of Paarthurnax and Jurgen Wind-Caller, who retreated to the Throat of the World after their respective Thu'um-caused tragedies

[hexed tartan]

and his brain starts exploding

[raw grail]

And then seemingly bonded and reminisced over those tragedies to come up with a pacifistic philosophy

[hexed tartan]

mans really went and made a Bible For Martial Artists

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/leonardo-dicaprio-clapping-clap-applause-amazing-gif-6329506374783745407

[raw grail]

Why shouldn't they trust you?
"Dov wahlaan fah rel. We were made to dominate. The will to power is in our blood. You feel it in yourself, do you not? I can be trusted. I know this. But they do not. Onikaan ni ov dovah. It is always wise to mistrust a dovah. I have overcome my nature only through meditation and long study of the Way of the Voice. No day goes by where I am not tempted to return to my inborn nature. Zin krif horvut se suleyk. What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"
- Paarthurnax

But, alas for the Nords, one of the mightiest of all the Tongues, Jurgen Windcaller (or The Calm, as he is better known today), became converted to a pacifist creed that denounced use of the Voice for martial exploits. His philosophy prevailed, largely due to his unshakable mastery of the Voice -- his victory was sealed in a legendary confrontation, where The Calm is said to have "swallowed the Shouts" of seventeen Tongues of the militant school for three days until his opponents all lay exhausted (and then became his disciples).
- PGE1

[hexed tartan]

Okay that is such a lovely counterpoint. Paarthurnax could lexify it.

[raw grail]

Emblem VII

The Tongues at Red Mountain went away humbled

Jurgen Windcaller began His Seven Year
Meditation

To understand how Strong Voices could fail

Emblem VIII

Jurgen Windcaller chose silence and returned

The 17 disputants could not shout Him down

Jurgen the Calm built His home on the Throat of
the World

- Tablets leading along the 7000 steps

[hexed tartan]

it sounds like he could just dispel shouts

[raw grail]

More like absorb them

[hexed tartan]

thuumic silence

[raw grail]

So, mastery of the Thu'um is inherently reliant on knowledge of the words

[hexed tartan]

Eh it says he weathered. Absorption is for spending. It says the Calm won.

[raw grail]

Let me finish. I have a lot of thoughts on this

[hexed tartan]

absorbing re-engages. But im qi-biased

so def finish

[raw grail]

Mastery of the Thu'um is inherently reliant on knowledge of the words. However, this knowledge also has effects besides just making your own Thu'um stronger - it can also make you resistant to the Thu'um of others, letting it pass over you, around you, through you. I don't mean absorb in the sense that he gained from it - rather in the sense that it washed over him and he stood unaffected. Calm, as his title says. We can see other examples of similar things happening on a smaller scale with some of our interactions with Paarthurnax and the Greybeards. Most notable are our greeting with Flame Breath, our meditation on Unrelenting Force, and our capability to resist the Thu'um of the Greybeards as they declare us Ysmir, Strundu'ul, and Dragonborn

So, in conclusion, I don't think he silenced their Shouts. I think all of their Shouts were successful, and his mastery and knowledge was so great that it didn't matter

Their Voices are too powerful for anyone not trained in the Way to withstand. Even a whisper could kill you.
- Arngeir

It is called 'Force' in your tongue. But as you push the world, so does the world push back. Think of the way force may be applied effortlessly. Imagine but a whisper pushing aside all in its path. That is 'Fus.' Let its meaning fill you. Su'um ahrk morah. You will push the world harder than it pushes back.
- Paarthurnax

Effect:

You stagger 25% less and foes stagger 25% more.

The Voice was a gift of the goddess Kynareth, at the dawn of time. She gave mortals the ability to speak as dragons do. Although this gift has often been misused, the only true use of the Voice is for the worship and glory of the gods. True mastery of the Voice can only be achieved when your inner spirit is in harmony with your outward actions. In the contemplation of the sky, Kynareth's domain, and the practice of the Voice, we strive to achieve this balance.
- Arngeir

Dovahkiin. You have tasted the Voice of the Greybeards, and passed through unscathed. High Hrothgar is open to you.
- Arngeir after giving the speech with the other Greybeards

This is much more speculative, but I could almost see the initiation ritual for the Dragonborn as a purposeful echo of what Jurgen did: withstand the full power of the disputants/greybeards

I'm done now

[hexed tartan]

I wasn't speaking about Silence the magicka spell. Thu'um isn't magicka. I was saying they shouted at him.

i just think it has a similar affect to Dispel, specifically

The cast charges but it doesnt affect him. Absorption requires the energy to conserve momentum, dispellation is a hard rejection or rebuttal of the energy cost.

same way the beards go "we would shout at you" and then the player just absolutely tanks it, being dov.

[hexed tartan]

i always wanted to tell Paarthurnax that Fus doesn't exist in a thermodynamic kalpa.

This implies push without pull which just doesn't happen

But that's just the word; the definition was encapsulated by the phrase "Su'um ahrk Morah."

Basically, Push Back Harder.

[hexed tartan]

oh totally. I said my bit about it before I read this part lol

so you're on the right track.

[raw grail]

When I hear "silence" in reference to magic which is necessarily performed through sound, I associate it with the sound being silenced, rather than the effect being ignored

I didn't think you meant silence the spell, I thought you meant the literal meaning of silence

[raw grail]

If I were to compare it to a magical effect, I guess I'd compare it to magical resistance rather than magical absorption

The definition of absorb I was thinking of:

take in or soak up (energy or a liquid or other substance) by chemical or physical action.
"buildings can be designed to absorb and retain heat"

• take up and reduce the effect or intensity of (sound or an impact).
  "deep-pile carpets absorbed all sound of the outside world"

Or:

All of that said, yeah, I think we're on the same track now that you've elaborated some, and I just misunderstood what you meant to some extent

Ultimately, a dampening or elimination of the effect on the self, without dampening or eliminating the sound or the effect in general

[hexed tartan]

ooh that one is better

[hexed tartan]

yeah but in martial and ingame magicka it has contexts

[robust lintel]

Here I am always trying to "catch" fireballs and throw them right back 😆

[hexed tartan]

an absorb is not a block is not a parry

etc.

[raw grail]

I can see why you'd take it differently than I meant it considering we were talking about magic, yeah

[fathom jewel]

I view the Thu'um as part of Sound magic as a general category. In other words, Sword Singing, Kagrenac's (and generally Dwemer) Tonal architecting and the Thu'um are all part of some bigger Sound Magic thing. It's not clear in the lore that this is the case or that Sound magic exists. But it makes sense to me. After all, when a wizard is casting a spell, he's typically speaking some litany, isn't he?

[robust lintel]

I don't know, I don't consider thu'um to even come from magicka, rather.. time. Like Magnus just harvested it, but it's always been there waiting to be used. But I also think magicka itself technically comes from time, but who knows..

[fathom jewel]

I remember we discussed the origins of all types of magic once, and came to the conclusion that....it doesn't make sense. 😉 I think it was part of a discussion on the 'schools' of magic and whether they really meant anything.

[raw grail]

Nah imo it's pretty explicit

There's a lot of clear indications of sound magic being a thing

Thu'um, Kiai, Tonal Architecture, Sword-Singing, Spinning

Sound and Light are the two major kinds of magic afaik. There's also things like blood magic, but that's fundamentally still originating from Magicka, which is fundamentally sun/starlight

There's also shadow magic, but imo that seems to be a manipulation of shadow via Magicka

[twilit crane]

aye anyone available to tell me if somethings funny really quickly

im working on a project and i need a bethesda fans seal of approval

[raw grail]

I'm probably a bad judge of humor

[twilit crane]

are you familiar with bethesda games going back to like Fo 3 and oblivion

[raw grail]

Yes, roughly

Less so Oblivion moreso FO3 tbh, at least experientially. Informationally moreso Oblivion ig since I'm a TES lore nerd, I just haven't played it as much

[fathom jewel]

You just made me think of something.

For magic, we can do stuff with sound, fire, electricity, cold and such. We can summon critters. But I'm wondering if BGS has paid any serious attention to an alternate way of projecting power - not thru summoning creatures or manipulating 'magicka', but by directly applying the powers of the Mind. What did they used to call that....."Psionics." Not sure if that's a real word. I can't recall that we have anything like that in ES, where some brainiac can do harm, plant suggestions in someone's head, drive them mad, control them and such. Has BGS missed the boat on this or is it me who is overlooking what they have?

[raw grail]

It's more like that fundamentally doesn't work the same way TES's magic does by my understanding

As I discussed earlier, the two main sources of magic are sound and Magicka. Magicka is essentially light. They're a power source, something to fuel your will so you can alter reality around you

[robust lintel]

I wonder if there's any magic having to do with the sense of smell or taste. Would be cool to see some top chefs mixing ingredients with magic for some pretty flashy and delectable dishes. Maybe I'll change the water to wine?

Curious question, since magicka is light, what is night?

[raw grail]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Cosmology

Day is when Magnus the Sun is in the sky. Night is when he is not, and Oblivion is seen as the night sky, with the stars being the children/followers of Magnus, the Magne-Ge. The sun and stars were made when Magnus and the Magne-Ge pierced the firmament of Oblivion, into Aetherius, while fleeing Mundus so they wouldn't have to sacrifice themselves

Some stars are also actually the various Plane(t)s of Mundus, such as the plane(t) AKHAT (Ehlnofex for Akatosh) being the eye of the Warrior. Similarly, some Daedric Plane(t)s appear in the night sky as stars, such as Azura, or Sheogorath

Azura’s Star, also called the Twilight Star, appears briefly at dawn and dusk low on the horizon below the constellation of the Steed.
- The Anticipations

What do you want?
"What does Sheogorath always want? I am the Mad Star! The Mad God! Ironically, I'm actually quite happy.
But I'm neither here nor anywhere. All that matters at the moment is infusing some entertainment into this dreadfully dull bloodshed."
- Sheogorath (Online)

Four Corners
"The Fourth Corner of the House of Troubles is Sheogorath, the Mad Star, who threatens the Dunmer with madness. It is time to renew a pact Vivec made with Sheogorath long ago. To do so, you must find the Gambolpuddy."
- Tholer Saryoni (Morrowind)

[robust lintel]

When you said light and I said night, what I really meant was "dark." Because I do believe things like the moon at night also have light, but that's not where my question was going.

And why are we blotting out the sun(light) with Auriel's bow in Skyrim? Does that temporarily disable magicka? And if it's a fully clouded night, is that blocking the light from the stars and moon at night too?

[raw grail]

The dark is the void of Oblivion, which I answered in the first half. I just figured additional context on the night sky might be useful too

It's also talked about in Cosmology

Alright. Let's try this again

It blocks the light from the sun so vampires don't have negative effects. I could see this ostensibly preventing the Magicka the sun is outputting from reaching Nirn, but the stars also provide Magicka, and there's sososososo many (I think infinite, but I don't know a source for that). Presumably, Magicka also isn't what's causing detrimental effects to vampires, based on the fact they're sucking blood (soul juice basically) from mortals, and the souls of mortals have Magicka; they don't have detrimental effects from starlight, which is also Magicka; and they can seemingly use traditional Magicka-based spellcasting. We don't really know what causes sunlight to be harmful to vampires, but the best theory I know of is that Meridia caused it. Meridia and Molag Bal are bitter enemies now, and Meridia's plane is a kind of lens over the sun. Following this theory through Dawnguard suggests that shooting the sun with the blood-soaked arrows is splashing the blood across the lens, metaphorically speaking, causing blood that's directly influenced by Molag Bal to blot out the cleansing light that the Colored Rooms causes

[robust lintel]

How is it a void if oblivion is in it?

So magicka itself can be blocked or disabled? In a way of oh idk, dissolving into it nothingness?

[upper field]

The Void is the space between dimensions. Oblivion, Nirn, and such occupy the Void.

[robust lintel]

So again, if light is magicka, what is dark?

[upper field]

I would assume either the Void or another form of Magicka?

[robust lintel]

That's what I was wondering, is it like anti-magicka?

[upper field]

I don't think so.

[robust lintel]

And does magicka regenerate itself? Or does it burn it out like a lightbulb if it's completely drained?

[raw grail]

It depends on context

There's like 3 major types of darkness I can think of in TES

All 3 of which are different aspects of the Void, or are the Void itself

[robust lintel]

Would it be possible to drain the sun of all it's light, would it die?

[raw grail]

So, essentially, Void and it's derivatives

[raw grail]

I don't think you can

[raw grail]

The sun leads to Aetherius, the realm of magic and light

It leaks through the holes that are the sun and stars

So, Nirn is constantly being washed with Magicka, and draining it of all of its Magicka is something that's impossible to speculate on

[robust lintel]

What would happen if someone/something drained Aetherius of all it's magicka?

[raw grail]

Aetherius and Oblivion are infinite. That's not how that works

[robust lintel]

I mean, they existed before Anu and Padomay?

[raw grail]

Oblivion is a void. It's just filled with things which are separated by void. Imagine outer space, interspersed with planets. Between the planets is vast emptiness. That's the void I'm talking about

[raw grail]

No. I'm speaking in metaphor because it's hard to put literally, but imagine a Venn diagram. One side is Anu, the other is Padomay. Between them is Aurbis. Closest to Anu is Aetherius. Closest to Padomay is Oblivion. This isn't actually how they're arranged, since Aetherius surrounds Oblivion, but it gets the point of their associations across

Aetherius and Oblivion are necessarily within Aurbis, and therefore necessarily come from Anu and Padomay, as all else in Aurbis does

Then Mundus can be thought of as the place these influences meet again

This is why Aurbis and Nirn are each known as "the Arena"

Anu = Everything. Yes. White. Padomay = Nothing. No. Black. Aurbis = Gray Maybe.

Aetherius is more Anuic. Oblivion is more Padomaic. Mundus is intermixed

Void in general can be thought of as an aspect of Padomay

Does that make sense or clear things up at all?

[robust lintel]

Sry, my lil khajiit needed me.

[robust lintel]

No

But I was just teasing, I realize the lore is limited and full of holes.

On another note, I've always wanted to keep asking Hermaeus Mora questions endlessly till he imploded. I mean he's all about knowledge right? So I figure the easiest way to kill Mora would be with stupidity 😄 Then another Oblivion plane up for grabs!

[fathom jewel]

Ya know something? Based on his behavior in Skyrim, I've come to consider Herma Mora as a total fraud. Remember how he was unable to open the dwemer lock for the container holding the Oghma Infinium on his own? Also, remember how anxious he was to extract shamanistic knowledge from the Skaal shaman in the Dragonborn DLC? If he was so omnipotent, neither of those problems should have impeded him in the least.

To be honest, HM was the last straw for me. The daedra and aedra are all frauds in my book. Powerful? Sure. But if you remove their unique tricks, they are no different from mortals with magic skills. I suspect Mannimarco came to that conclusion as well, which would explain why he wanted to reach divinity status. The only real problem with Mannimarco is his bizarre and disgusting obsession with necromancy.

[upper field]

There's a book called "Azura and the Box" that helps prove Daedric Princes aren't as omnipotent as they'd like you to believe.

[raw grail]

What?

That's not how that story goes, first of all, and second of all it's both fictional and by someone who is vastly misquoting the originals

Notice the reaction after she rightly calls out the thing he was hiding, as well as the publisher's note
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Azura_and_the_Box

[raw grail]

None of the Daedra or Aedra are omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent. Pretty much nothing is. Do the Princes generally claim to be all-powerful or omniscient? I can't think of examples really... Even Hermaeus Mora in Skyrim never says he actually knows everything. He calls himself "Knower of the Unknown" and he calls Apocrypha a place where "all knowledge is hoarded," but those both indicate that he's seeking more and more. His entire schtick relies on him collecting knowledge and trading it, not on him already having everything

Imo Mora as Forbidden Knowledge and Memory makes a lot more sense when you take the Imperial Census of Daedra Lords into account

TFW I can't post my sources in a lore channel bc there's too many

Hermaeus Mora, “the Gardener of Men”, claims that he is one of the oldest Princes, born of thrown-away ideas used during the creation of mortality in the Mundus. Imperial Mananauts have verified that his influence on fate and time is real and unfeigned, implications of which tie this Prince directly with Akatosh, chief of the Nine Divines. Since Akatosh is the prime temporal spirit whose appearance led to the formation of the world, perhaps Hermaeus Mora speaks the truth. Nevertheless, it is the will of His Majesty Uriel VII that only on the official holiday of 5th First Seed should any propitiation to this Daedric Prince be delivered. “All else is mutation.”

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Imperial_Census_of_Daedra_Lords

You're right that they're essentially very powerful beings, rather than all powerful beings. Even Akatosh doesn't have perfect control of time everywhere

Mortals themselves are the creations of these immortals, so is it that surprising that they're fundamentally very similar? Even death isn't permanent for either of them. Lorkhan died and his ghost still lingers. Doesn't that happen to mortals all the time?

Idk if it makes them frauds tho, necessarily. Mainly bc I'm still not sure where they claim to be omniscient. Most things point to vast but ultimately limited power and control

I think Vivec and Sotha Sil specifically also give a very very interesting perspective on this. Lemme grab relevant dialogue

to be a god:
"It is like being a juggler. Things are always moving, and you learn to know where they are without even thinking about it. Only there are many, many things moving. And sometimes, like any juggler, you drop something. I'm afraid it has become a lot more a matter of dropping things lately. There's too much to do, and not enough time, and I'm losing my touch. Perhaps I'm growing old.
Continue
It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it.
Continue
It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once."

- Vivec

"You expect something grand, but I promised you the truth.
"I am only what time and circumstances made me. Son of a lost house. Friend to a fallen king. Some will tell you that we are the product of our choices. I've never found that to be the case."
But you're supposed to be a god, right?
"I am whatever the people need me to be. A guardian. An oppressor. For some, too distant. For others, too meddlesome. I am the canvas upon which they paint their dreams and resentments. A vessel for their hopes and doubts.
A mirror. Nothing more."
If you believe that, why even call yourself a god?
"I don't.
But my companions, Vivec and Almalexia see their divinity as essential. Godhood brings them joy and purpose. They find meaning in the theatrical. Who am I to deprive them of that?"

What are your feelings on Almalexia? / What about Almalexia?
"Almalexia defies simple analysis. I doubt she could even describe herself accurately.
To understand Almalexia, you must first understand the value of fiction. Vivec fancies himself the poet, but in truth, Ayem is the greater storyteller."
How so?
"Vivec knows the boundaries that separate fact from fiction. He knows them so well that's he's learned how to break them. He exists inside his verse, but recognizes the lies. The contradictions.
He both does, and does not believe his own tales."
How is Almalexia different?
"She believes her tales implicitly. As does everyone else. Her capacity for deception appears limitless. She sows lies like a master gardener sows seeds, and the harvest of trust and adulation is breathtaking in scope."
Does that bother you?
"Not in the slightest.
As I said, we are, all of us, bound by our nature. Almalexia does what she does because she cannot do otherwise. It will not end well. But then, even the best endings rarely bring joy."
What do you think of Vivec? / And what about Vivec?
"Vivec is my brother. He knows my struggles and I know his. That knowledge makes our relationship... complicated. To truly know someone is as much a curse as it is a blessing."
What are his struggles?
"Regret. We are bound by that at least.
He also suffers a kind of enslavement. Not unlike my own, in fact. Beauty holds the keys to his shackles. Beauty, and a love of great works. Great heights. His appetites are insatiable, thus his despair."
Despair?
"Yes. A poet's despair.
Vivec craves radical freedom - the death of all limits and restrictions. He wishes to be all things at all times. Every race, every gender, every hero, both divine and finite... but in the end, he can only be Vivec."
And that's not enough? To be a god hero?
"Not even remotely."

What is all this for? The Clockwork City. / What is all this for, anyway? The Clockwork City? / I will remain vigilant. But I have to ask—what is all this for? The Clockwork City.
"I sometimes ask myself the same thing.
May I confess something to you?"
Of course.
"I suffer from a peculiar ailment. Shall I describe it?
I bear the cruel weight of certainty. Total, absolute, relentless certainty. People rarely comprehend the luxury of doubt... the freedom that comes with indecision. I envy you."
Didn't you just say that you question whether the City is worth the effort?
"Indeed. But such questions are flaccid - cursory indulgences that come and go in an instant.
The truth is that my actions, both good and evil, are inevitable. Locked in time. Determined by chains of action and consequence."
So... you were forced to build the Clockwork City?
"Compelled.
This City serves a noble goal. The redemption of Tamriel. The unification of competing forces. The destruction of the Daedra. Unfortunately, it is an endeavor build [sic] upon a lattice of corpses. Betrayal. Untold horrors.Do you understand?"

- Sotha Sil

This... Compulsion that Sotha Sil speaks of is kind of echoed by Dagon in a dream described by a worshipper of Dagon, in A Vision of Twin Citadels
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Vision_of_the_Twin_Citadels

"This is Destruction's Solace, twin to Ardent Hope," Mehrunes Dagon replied. "Once I reigned over all my realm from this place. I filled these halls with my servants and the trophies of my countless victories. But then I laid it to waste and destroyed all within."

"But why, Lord Dagon?" I asked, shivering in my terror.

"Because I am Destruction, and it is what I must do." Dagon swept an arm across the empty court. "Remember the ghosts, measure the devastation, bear witness to the finality of my purpose. When you return to your mortal form, tell all whom you meet of what you have seen. By my hand alone shall their ends be given meaning. Now go."

I could keep going but I've already probably posted more than was wanted xD

[robust lintel]

That is some word wall 💀

They should really just let them all critize their makers (the developers), the true gods/goddesses of the tes world 😄

[fathom jewel]

Perhaps the biggest reason why I hold a very dim view of the daedra and aedra is not just their fallibility, but the fact that their 'club' is not exclusive. Think about it - multiple mortals have reached their level. The ones I can think of offhand: Mannimarco, who did so after centuries (millenia?) of effort. Talos/Tiber Septim, who I guess is supposed to be some thrift market version of Lorkhan now. The entire Tribunal and Big Daddy Dagoth Ur - granted, they achieved it by taking their power from Lorkhan's heart, but nonetheless they propelled themselves into the 'major league' in doing so. The Ideal Masters, who did it on their own and in a way which loosely reminds me of Mannimarco. This is why I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with the Dwemer - the divinities may be quite powerful, but they aren't worthy of worship or devotion. Some of you may disagree strenuously - this is just my impression of the issue.

[upper field]

Nah I see the validity in the Dwemer's arugments.

[robust lintel]

Everybody wants to be a god 🙄

[fathom jewel]

Reminds me of an old Tears For Fears pop tune from the 80s..... 😉

By the way: The redguard have this religious myth about Tall Papa/Ruptga, Sep, Satakal and the "Far Shores." From what I remember of my brief overview of Nordic religious myths, they have something that sound vaguely similar. Also, the Altmer apparently have an old lament about not having joined all the divinities in immortality because of Lorkhan's Mundus/Nirn project. Finally, I recall (very vaguely) some mention of the Ehlnofey as being the ancestors of all mortal races and that they were possibly very closely related to the et'Ada (the immortal beings, I think.) So: perhaps it's wrong to consider mortals and immortals from being all that different - they might actually be all from the same extended 'family.'

[fathom jewel]

Lore question:

In all the areas of Skyrim (including Black Reach and the Forgotten Vale) where the Falmer are to be found, I never saw evidence of them having some organized religion (the 'temple' in black reach is an exception, though it looked abandoned to me and might have simply been a leftover Dwemer meeting hall.) I suspect they have one, though. After all, with the exception of the Dwemer and the Sload (which are both highly eccentric), all the tribes of Tamriel have religion as one of the institutional pillars of their culture. Assuming the Falmer do have a religion, what aedra or (more likely) daedra would they want to worship?

[sick arrow]

The Crimson Scars were a vampire sect who attempted a coup in the Dark Brotherhood (re: Oblivion) but they were discovered and destroyed. The leader, Greywyn Blenwyth, may be related to the Champion of Cyrodiil. They inherit Deepscorn Hollow.

[raw grail]

They have shamans

It's ancient, but the Falmeri statue imo is likely of Xarxes

Likely doesn't resemble the modern religion at all tho. The Temple of Xrib and the shamans are the only hints to any modern Falmeri religion. The main reason I count the Temple of Xrib as an indication of Falmeri religion in general is because Xrib isn't Dwemeri and the Dwemer didn't have temples. Admittedly, it doesn't tell us much, and it isn't necessarily organized

All of that said, I actually find Aedric worship more likely, if it can even be categorized as either. Their ancient religion is Aedric. A culture switching from Aedric to Daedric worship has often been the result of a schism caused by heavy pushes for Aedric worship. I don't think we have reason to believe anything like that happened, nor any other catalyst for switching to Daedric worship. That said, it's also not unbelievable: for example, embracing Malacath, Prince of Pariahs and Broken Oaths, would be very narratively and thematically resonant. But without pretty much any details, it's hard to even wildly speculate, let alone speculate with any sense of direction

A shaman (left) and concept art of a priestess (right)

ESO also has a furnishing which is a Falmer totem, and has the following description:

"I would ask the scholar who wrote 'I discovered Falmer mark their territory with such totems' more about this ill-scented column and these Falmer she mentions, but she died after penning this entry in her journal. How inconvenient."—Scholar Tuintaatel

[dark palm]

Apparently Hoag “The Mouth Of Mud” Merkiller, one of the high kings of skyrim may have been a trans man, either that or Vivec claimed him to be as an insult towards him

[abstract ledge]

Vivec doesnt seem like he would use that as an insult

[dark palm]

maybe but Vivec's a hypocrite so who knows

[fathom jewel]

INTERESTING! Looking at the uesp articles related to Xarxes and Xrib right now. Curious that they left out any actual details about Xrib....hopefully we haven't seen the last of the Falmer.

[raw grail]

Agreed

[fathom jewel]

Hmmm. OK, I've read thru the UESP stuff and even watched a 29 minute YT vid. There's a lot of directions BGS could take with the Falmer with regards to this. It all depends - for instance, are the Falmer going to reemerge onto the surface in force with the objective of retaking Skyrim? Is whatever deity they worship interested in restoring the Falmer to Snow Elves one day (including sight and physical appearance), or does this deity simply want to use the Falmer as a scourge against the Nords? Could their objectives be more limited, as in perhaps retaking only a portion of Skyrim or maybe starting over in the mountains and valleys of far eastern High Rock (which looks oddly empty on a map)? Malacath makes a lot of sense if the Falmer become a 'weapon' wielded against the Nords. Xarxes comes across as too passive and removed from 'the scene' - after all, he's a librarian. But Auriel/Akatosh would make sense if the goal is to guide the Falmer back to becoming Snow Elves, and especially so if Gelebor takes an active role (that last Snow Elf in the Dawnguard DLC.) Of course, none of this explains the origin of the word "Xrib" and whose name that actually might be. There's quite a bit of room for more storytelling.

[robust whale]

Elsweyer... Did I spell it correctly?

The moons must protect....

[raw grail]

Elsweyr. Added an e

[fathom jewel]

Say it three times fast and Ma 'iq will appear..... 😉

[royal coral]

Didn't happen, you ||liar||

Sorry, I had to make the joke

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/ray-liotta-laughing-happy-lol-gif-15802525

[robust whale]

https://tenor.com/view/olive-high-guardian-spice-cat-girl-petting-pat-cat-gif-15673088237744485882

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/teh-cat-comin-gif-18402983533302810716

[unkempt tide]

Hi! Please keep commments appropriate for the server, thank you

[fathom jewel]

Since this is, after all, the Lore section, and we are talking about Khajiit: any title set in Elsweyr would be remiss, I think, in avoiding any exploration of potential links between the Khajiit and the Ka Po Tun. Remember that the Khajiit presences in Tamriel predates that of both Man and Mer, and that both the Khajiit and the Ka Po Tun are 'cat people.'

[robust whale]

Aren't people just a different type of Mer anyway?

[fathom jewel]

Great question. I'm not sure. Unless I am mistaken, the lore suggests that Men and Mer are different and have no common 'root.' The Betmer are apparently also different from the previous two and from each other.

The Argonians may be 'products' of the Hist, who may have taken a non-sentient species of lizard and transformed it into the current dominant intelligent species of Black Marsh. The Khajiit might think of themselves as a variant of the Aldmer, but I wonder about that.

The weirdest thing is that all the tribes can interbreed, which suggests quite strongly that they DO all have a common root.

Someone with a deeper lore understanding than mine might be able to sort this out. Of course, the lore might not be 'complete' on such points.

[robust lintel]

Just curious, why did 3 large stars appear in the night sky with the twin moons in Arena? Then never see them again. I think they were called "Star6, Star7, Star8."

[brisk perch]

Stars and Unstars are somewhat obscure in the lore, relating back to Magnus and the Magne-Ge

[fathom jewel]

If those stars were numbers 6, 7 and 8, what happened to the first five? (Note: I never played Arena.)

[bronze bay]

what do you guys think is the best way to introduce more man races into the settings? the best i can think of is some disaster in the padomaic that makes the men of esroniet, yneslea and cathnoquey flee to tamriel

[fathom jewel]

Why do you want to introduce more tribes of Men? Not a criticism - just curious.

[bronze bay]

i think everyone should be able to make someone that looks like them in a rpg game also i know a couple people who dislike that elder scrolls takes aspects of their culture and yet their people aren't included

[fathom jewel]

Interesting. I know there are a few aspects of my culture scattered thru the tribes of Tamriel (in particular, two Men and one Mer.) But there's no way for me to build a character that would genuinely represent me and my culture. It would be too disjointed. If you do want to bring in more aspects of real life human culture into the game world, though, looking in the direction of Akavir is a great idea. I get the impression there are a variety of asian and far eastern cultural ideas that have been borrowed in the lore and applied to the Akaviri tribes.

Suggestion: build a mod that could include representatives of select Akaviri tribes being present in some port city. You could create body types, equipment, clothing and other things (within the limits of the Creation Club tools.) It could be really cool! I bet it would attract the notice of BGS as well.

[bronze bay]

yea have them show up at port cities would make the most sense the reason i'd go for the padomaic isles instead of akavir fully is because it seems bgs want to keep akaivir mysterious and we know the padoimaic isle are or were apart of the empire and they trade with the mainland ...atleast esroniet does

theres a modding team making esroniet the art they showed off looks amazing imo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gUScprHwAA

[brisk perch]

Well, Meridia is 2, and ||Ithelia|| is 1, don't remember the order for the others if revealed

[robust lintel]

@raw grail I summon thee council 🙏

[raw grail]

i don't know enough about Arena to have an answer off the top of my head but it is worth remembering that a lot of the present lore wasn't really, well, present at the time

i might be able to get back to you after i'm done playing and get a chance to look and ask around

[robust lintel]

Ty anyway!

[lyric bronze]

Is Mnemo-li the cause of the prisoner phenomenon?

[brisk perch]

Unknown if they are the root cause, but they seem to be in charge of managing us, though it likely goes back to ||Ithelia|| based upon the description in https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Nine_Coruscations

[lyric bronze]

It makes sense that Azura, Mora and Ithelia would all be connected to the prisoners seeing how they each have fate in their spheres

Would Mnemo-li have taken up Ithelias role or space now that she is gone

[brisk perch]

||One of the possibilities, depending on how we interpret events from Gold Road, that the Vestige mantles Ithelia's role and ends up forgotten and obscure, only involved in fixing the threads of fate when the prisoner breaks the story or dies, while Mnem is involved with the general events around dragonbreaks and managing the overall memory of the world during those times||

[lyric bronze]

||The vestige mantling ithelia isn’t something I had considered, that’s a genuinely cool concept. What evidence is there for that?||

[brisk perch]

||We're the only one that remembers her in the end of the story other than Hermaeus Mora, our connection as the likely Numinous Paravant, and our connection to the Skyshards, meteoric glass that fell from Aetherius||

[lyric bronze]

||How are we the Numinous Paravant?||

[gaunt bear]

@lyric bronze I’ve actually got something planned for the Vestige in my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction, but I like your idea as well, so I’ll put the two of them together:

||The Vestige can mantle Ithelia, but he can’t. Not yet. Not while the curse Molag Bal laid on him, Andraste, and Maferath in retaliation for his defeat at their hands holds strong. Not while the Dark Vestige still exists.||

||I got that idea from Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones||

[brisk perch]

||Numinous is an early lore/cut version of the game name for Soul Shriven, we as the Vestige are pretty much first among Soul Shriven, not the oldest, but definitely the most influential and closest to being mortal again, yet not mortal. All the NPC's refer to us as mortal, but we really aren't, even after getting our soul back.||

[gaunt bear]

I’ve got that the Spirits of the Fade keep referring to the Vestige as a “not-so-mortal”, much to everyone’s confusion.

[lyric bronze]

||Hmmmm
Oh the one hand due to it being cut content it could mean something different now (paravant = first/pre-eminently, numinous = having a strong religious or spiritual quality)

However, I genuinely like this theory and think there’s a lot going for it ||

[lyric bronze]

The aylieds were the ones that cut the red diamond into its shape into the Chim El Adabal, right?

Does that mean there could still be shavings of the crystal somewhere

[gaunt bear]

There can be…

[glacial scarab]

Supposedly but it's an Imperial song so it's more then likely wrong.

[gaunt bear]

What I’d like to find out is, how did that song get started?

[glacial scarab]

You expect Imperials to not make a song about their "Amulet of Kings" which then ties into Alessia and the false "Dragonborn Emperors"

[gaunt bear]

If a pebble is dropped into a bucket of water, a splash marks its entry and ripples form that extend in all directions. The pebble itself is gone, but the ripples marking its passage remain. But when the ripples are gone, though, what evidence is there that the pebble ever came?

[plain cosmos]

The pebble at the bottom of the bucket.

[gaunt bear]

Correct, invisible and forgotten in the dark water.

[plain cosmos]

Only by a superficial examination. Which is ultimately the breeding ground for faith and religions.

Still, the lack of readily available evidence is not it's self a lack of evidence.

If you were to look at the bottom of the bucket, however, and find NO pebbles, them you could reasonably conclude no pebble had been dropped. And therefore, there had been no ripples.

Because you've taken the time to thoroughly investigate the circumstances for all potential evidence.

[gaunt bear]

And that’s something I like doing. I’d like an adventure to prove/disprove that such shavings existed.

[plain cosmos]

It's like the Cavern of the Incarnate in Morrowind. It's the PERFECT environment to determine if Azura ever indicated that other Incarnates were 'Chosen'. And yet, none of them even mention it, or having any direct interaction with Azura herself.

Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that the statements by her at the beginning of the game are unique to your character.

[glacial scarab]

It depends on how the games treat the cultures really some like the Dunmer are well handled and then there's the Cyrodiils who are still a blank slate.

Cyrodiil's are still just really a replaceable people.

[raw grail]

Assuming, of course, the pebble wasn't moved, changed, or simply went unfound

Which unfortunately all happen to evidence

[plain cosmos]

There's usually indications of that, though.

When there is NO evidence, then you can generally assume nothing happened. Because making affirmations for which there is no evidence what so ever is bad scholarship.

An all too easy claim is 'Prove X doesn't exist/didn't happen'.

But that is an inherently fallacious position that misrepresents the burden of proof

The Negative is assumed. The Positive must be demonstrated.

If all evidence of something has been erased one way or another, no affirmation of its existence can be made.

[plain cosmos]

Per the Stone in a Bucket example. Is their evidence of an impact or something being removed from the sediment on the bottom? Is their water outside the bucket indicating splashes from the ripples? Is their moisture or salt lines along the side of the bucket indicating moving water? Is their a wet stone next to the bucket?

The more things turn up as 'No', the more you can confidently say that there was no stone dropped in the bucket.

[raw grail]

Good points fair enough

I do agree. In hindsight I'm not entirely sure why I responded that way in the first place tbh. I might have automatically pointed out the first potential hole I saw in the logic despite agreeing? I do it to myself a lot and I don't always keep it to myself

[plain cosmos]

It's ok, I got caught up in the topic too. I was already a full paragraph in before I even realised what channel this was, and by that point it was too deep to back out.

[robust lintel]

Unless of course the observer was on Skooma at the time.

[plain cosmos]

Well, that plays into the inherent unreliable of eye witness testimony and testimonials.

As a general rule 'I saw X' is the absolute least reliable sort of evidence there is.

[plain cosmos]

Though, testimony IS better than nothing at all. If only barely.

[small jay]

Here's a headcanon:
"Oh, you little, oblivious knife-ears, it's absolutely HILARIOUS you think you have any taste in the finer things in life. You wouldn't know what music is if the world's greatest bards all consecutively dropped their lyrics on your head and splattered your tiny brains across the road. In fact, the splatter would probably make better art! And don't even get me started on your total disrespect for cheese."

• Sheogorath, to the Thalmor

Actually, how much do you wanna bet that ||Sheogorath is actively driving the Thalmor nuts to sabotage their efforts and THAT'S why they're so incompetent? And he's doing it all because he's the Hero of Kvatch?||

[fathom jewel]

This raises a question: who amongst all the divines - not just aedra, but maybe daedra too - would be supporters/patrons of the Thalmor? Akatosh is supposed to be patron to both man and mer, but he's favored man for the most part (amulet of kings, dragonfires and all that.) Is there anyone who might be on the side of the Thalmor? Stands to reason that some might at least consider it, even if just for very self-serving and perhaps even short term reasons.

[raw grail]

A lot of Princes could fit idealogically if I'm not mistaken:

• Boethiah for upsetting the status quo through usurpation and grabbing opportunities, improving oneself in the face of struggle and conflict
• Mehrunes Dagon for upsetting the status quo through destruction and rebellion
• Molag Bal for the domination of others
• This one isn't based on ideals, but rather, an artifact: the Thalmor allegedly had at least one artifact from Vaermina, the "Orb of Vaermina". While one doesn't have to be working with a Prince to use their artifact, it does introduce the potential for them to be working with Vaermina
• They obviously claim the support of Auri-El and the rest of their pantheon. The only one I can think of them forsaking here is Stendarr, the "Apologist of Men"

[raw grail]

did i have a notification?

oh, did the bot catch a message for a swear?

[fathom jewel]

Boethiah makes tons of sense. The only conflict I see with that (and it's a mild one) is her previous support of the Dunmer in their struggle to free themselves of the Altmer. But since that happened aeons ago, it's probably not much of an issue. And Mehrunes Dagon makes a great deal of sense as well, for the reasons you stated. Hopefully the Thalmor will get explored more from this and all other aspects in ES6. It would be a shame to leave them in their current state of being essentially cartoonish villains.

[raw grail]

i do hope they're fleshed out more, but if i'm being entirely honest, i hope any religious fleshing out is done through appealing to their own pantheon and gods

[fathom jewel]

Naah, man, it wasn't you. When I was typing my original message, I compared the cartoonish representation of the Thalmor as villains to a certain highly authoritarian sociopolitical group in Germany from the early 1930s to 1945, and the bbs took umbrage to my using a term that starts with N and ends with I. So I got the notification "Watch your language" and had to retype the message. 🙂

[robust lintel]

Tamriel needs it's own B.J. Blazkowicz 😄

[fathom jewel]

How about an ES version of Duke Nukem? 😉

[gaunt bear]

You’re kidding, right?

[fathom jewel]

Dude, obviously 🤣

[gaunt bear]

Just making sure.

[glacial scarab]

Suits Vivec perfectly.

[fathom jewel]

Vivec? He's not a Duke Nukem. The Duke is not the philosophical or mystical type.

[lyric bronze]

Almalexia is Duke

No I will not elaborate

[upper field]

Based.

[fathom jewel]

Either Ebonarm or Malacath.

[sweet plume]

So I am playing through Gold Road and the fact a Nord Perfected The Art of Scribing is pretty big

[brisk perch]

It's not all the surprising, really, historically many of the greatest mages, self-described or otherwise, came from Atmoran descent

[fathom jewel]

Maybe nords learned to mistrust mages from their experiences as a people at the hands of the Dragon priests.

[brisk perch]

Probably that, and their experience at Saarthal...

[sweet plume]

I mean sure there is Shalidor, but Scribing is still a big achievement, especially because Nords are not considered to be fond of Magic in Modern times, yet Shalidors Wife truly put some respect on Nords with Scribing.

[sweet plume]

Aside from this a Book Tale of the idea that Snow Elves froze Atmora for what the Ancient Nords did is a cool little thing, like “Maybe they did and it wasn’t just global warming.”

[fathom jewel]

You're suggesting the idea that Atmora's glaciation is not a natural phenomenon, but some sort of stunningly powerful magical curse? That's actually super interesting. You could actually create a whole title out of that. Perhaps it could start with the PC journeying to the southern shores of Atmora and discovering that there were a few groups of Skaal ekeing out a living much in the way that the Eskimo and Inuit do. Then, thru interacting with them and exploring the ruins that are still accessible, you would learn clues about the curse and undertake a quest to unravel it. The idea would need a lot of story development, but it sounds fun to me.

[sweet plume]

Well I’m not suggesting, more like the Book in game is a Tale suggesting that possibility.

[proven moss]

Prior to Dragonborn I was hoping the expansion would take place in Roscrea.

I like to imagine it as a land ruled by giants with Reever pirates living underfoot like rats

[fathom jewel]

It's a cool idea. 😃

[fathom jewel]

Roscrea? The lore is extremely skimpy on that place. Is it much like Solstheim?

[proven moss]

It's only known as a island that the Empire conquered that was later seized by Solitude. Long been speculated to be in the Sea of Ghosts because of the latter fact

So in that sense, it has similarities to Solstheim (which was conquered by the Empire and then seized by Windhelm)

Or was it seized by Winterhold? I forget

Since we had already been to Solstheim I figured it would be a great target for DLC

[fathom jewel]

I wonder why BGS didn't build another one or two DLCs that could have taken us there and then to Atmora. Granted, they would have had to create more stories and it sounds like enough of the devs wanted to work on new things that it would have been a slog for them. But still - We've had nothing but 'gold edition' and 'anniversary edition' and 'ultra doubleplusgood edition' releases since 2013 - 11 years ago. They could have done SOMETHING. (I know, I'm whining.)

[lyric bronze]

I still wanna visit Yokuda
“Oh but it’s underwater” Dwemer submarine and diving suit or foul Maomer magics

[upper field]

You gotta remember that for the most part all the new content we've been getting (Creation Club and such) had very little hands on from Bethesda themselves. Outside of patches they have barely did anything else for Skyrim after Dragonborn.

[glacial scarab]

It's still got land.
Redguard has a map of what's left and TES4 talks of trade

[lyric bronze]

Oh yeah I forgor

All the more reason for us to go there at some point

[fathom jewel]

I'm guessing what's left of Yokuda looks like an archipelago of mountain peaks & ridges along with some volcanoes. It would likely be wondrously beautiful.

[lyric bronze]

Being able to see both what’s left above and what’s sunk would be so cool

Elder scrolls Atlantis type stuff

[lyric bronze]

Ok I keep seeing people say that Sword singing and the thu’um are of the same type of magic as tonal architecture, where’s the source on this

[gaunt bear]

I’m pretty sure they’re not exactly the same, but there are some similar elements.

I’m also pretty sure that Dwemer tonal architects, Nordic Tongues, and Redguard Sword Singers will be quick to point out their differences.

[lyric bronze]

But are there any direct connections made between them in any text or game?

I can definitely buy them being connected I just am looking for some textual references

[gaunt bear]

Not that I’m aware of, but I’m no expert on any of those.

[lyric bronze]

Damb

[gaunt bear]

Now I’ve got a question for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction that I’d like some help on:

In the story, a prophecy from the Elder Scrolls goes like this:

When the Dovah return and the Heavens are pierced, the balance of power shall be disrupted; the potential of magic shall be heightened; and the ghosts of troubles past shall come back to haunt the present. There’s only one question: Are you ready?

But I’m afraid my inspiration tank is running on empty. So I’d like some help with this.

• The balance of power shall be disrupted; What should this mean? What is ‘the balance of power’ and how has it been disrupted?

• The potential of magic shall be heightened; This is slightly more obvious, since the Breach has allowed limited time travel. But what else should the Breach have enabled?

• and the ghosts of troubles past shall come back to haunt the present. Corypheus is already one of those troubles, and I’ve already got that King Lysandus is coming back for double vengeance. But that’s all I’ve got, and ai need some help with that.

This is why I’m posting this here. I’d like some advice from actual lore experts.

[raw grail]

It's not all underwater

[lyric bronze]

I know I forogr

[raw grail]

There's a map from Redguard showing the remaining islands, and dialogue from Oblivion about trading goods with Yokuda

[raw grail]

There is no direct source saying these are the same thing, so much as they are all coming from the same central idea: producing magical effects with sound instead of Magicka

[sweet plume]

This just means Yokudan’s as a people still exist

[raw grail]

We do have a direct source on Kiai and the Thu'um being similar, but Spinning, Thu'um, Tonal Architecture, and Sword-Singing all carry that element of sound

[lyric bronze]

Spinning?

[raw grail]

There is this from Tuttle:

Randomguyioi: Mr. Tuttle, as an avid lore fan, I do really appreciate ESO for how it delves into deeper aspects of the world we don't normally see much of. With your work on Sotha Sil, the current year of the Dragon and the expanded Dwemer lore, will we see a possibly in depth comparison or clash between the Thu'um and Tonal Architecture in a later bit of content. Be it DLC, loremasters archives, or so on?

Sorry if this is too spolier heavy to answer, and thanks for reading.:)

ZOS_LeamonTuttle: This is a great question. We've messed with Tonal magic a few times (in Gnisis for one) and obviously, we're exploring the Thu'um a bit with Dragons. In terms of explicit comparisons or explorations of their relationship to one another, I guess we'll have to see if any Tamrielic scholars have anything to say about it in future releases.

[gaunt bear]

You frog.

[raw grail]

Bosmeri Spinning, as in spinning a tale or song. It's usually used to sing stories about the world, but singing those stories can change the world, at larger scales with more Spinners

[lyric bronze]

Oh yeah that

[raw grail]

It's even been used to change people's nymics, which is one way Bosmer have horns and antlers

[lyric bronze]

Haven’t done valenwood stuff in a while

[raw grail]

It's worth remembering, I think, that Magicka is ultimately light

So Magicka-magic and these sound magics are seemingly one of the expressions of "the admixture of light and sound" as MK refers to it (he has synesthesia)

[lyric bronze]

Would I be correct in saying that
Lorkhan = space
Akatosh = time
Magnus = energy

[raw grail]

More specifically Magnus = Light but yes

Magicka is essentially energy so

It works out ^-^

[lyric bronze]

Just want to clarify
Lorkhan and Akatosh are basically the same being
Two sides of the same coin?

[raw grail]

Yes, essentially. Again, as a source from MK puts it, "same-twins on opposite ends of the aurbilical cord" or something to that effect. Together, Aka-Lorkh forms Space-Time

[lyric bronze]

How does Magnus fit into this as light/energy

[raw grail]

He's a more... Complicated figure

He and Lorkhan together form Sun and Moon

But when introducing Magnus, it's easiest to work with all three at once

First of all, do you know of the Enantiomorph and it's expressions in TES?

[lyric bronze]

Oohhhh
Magnus is the observer

He loses his eye!

[raw grail]

Yes!

So, technically speaking, the Enantiomorph is only 2

Most fundamentally, Anu-Pado. There isn't an official term for 3, but the one I'm familiar with is "Enantiomorphic Oversoul" - an oversoul formed between the Enantiomorph (King and Rebel) and a third (Observer)

Or, working within a slightly different framework, Akatosh as Warrior, Lorkhan as Thief, Magnus as Mage

[lyric bronze]

Could that also be Nerevar, Dagoth ur and alandro sul?

[raw grail]

Hmmm

I know they're involved in something but I don't know how exactly it works out with those 3

[lyric bronze]

Wait could vivec be the observer

[raw grail]

He is in Nerevarine vs Dagoth Ur

[lyric bronze]

I initially went with alandro because he is struck blind but Vivec is the one who writes all those sermons

[raw grail]

Alandro is also often identified as an observer yes

I thiiiink I've heard that as Nerevar as King, ALMSIVI as Rebel, and Alandro as Observer? I always forget

Sometimes people also change places depending on situation, role, etc

Or can even be part of multiple. For example, Magnus-Lorkhan makes an enantiomorph, and Akatosh-Lorkhan makes an enantiomorph

[lyric bronze]

Dagoth makes more sense as the rebel
Vivec refers to Nerevar and dagoth at both each being a number 1 in 11
As in you could switch them and not notice

[raw grail]

For another example, ALMSIVI is Thief (Vivec), Warrior (Almalexia), Mage (Sotha Sil)

[raw grail]

Exactly. And the Observer is the one who can

[lyric bronze]

Oh yeah I’ve had that one in the back of my brain for a while

[raw grail]

Which is why 11 is the "Number of the Master"

Oh

Another infamous example, which is actually where we first got the word "Enantiomorph" in TES: Hjalti as Thief, Zurin as Mage, Wulfharth as Warrior, ultimately forming the oversoul of Talos

It's also actually taken from chemistry irl!

Idk how common of knowledge that is or isn't but it's cool I think

And is helpful for understanding what it means in tes tbh

[lyric bronze]

How did I not make that connection

[raw grail]

I saw a video from Steve Mould on sugar molecules which talked about it

[lyric bronze]

Kicking myself rn it’s so obvious

[raw grail]

Yeah I get it, I learned about it with Aka-Lorkh before anyone else so every step of the way felt like that

[lyric bronze]

The final fights in Skyrim and it’s dlc’s also kinda fit

[raw grail]

Yes!

[median willow]

Do you guys have some kind of playlist of videos? or podcast? orrr anything i could gain some lore from? I watched alot of those but you know.. there's always something :d

[lyric bronze]

Alduin vs Dragonborn with tsun or shor as the observer

[raw grail]

Ehh, there's not always an observer, and the Observer has to be maimed

But yes, LDB vs Alduin fs. They're repeating Shor vs Alduin

[lyric bronze]

Oh drat the maiming

[raw grail]

Old Knocker
The third song of King Wulfharth tells of his death. Orkey, an enemy god, had always tried to ruin the Nords, even in Atmora where he stole their years away. Seeing the strength of King Wulfharth, Orkey summoned the ghost of Alduin Time-Eater again. Nearly every Nord was eaten down to six years old. Boy Wulfharth pleaded to Shor, the dead Chieftain of the Gods, to help his people. Shor's own ghost then fought the Time-Eater on the spirit plane, as he did at the beginning of time, and he won, and Orkey's folk, the Orcs, were ruined. As Boy Wulfharth watched the battle in the sky he learned a new thu'um, What Happens When You Shake the Dragon Just So. He used this new magic to change his people back to normal. In his haste to save so many, though, he shook too many years out on himself. He grew older than the Greybeards, and died. The flames of his pyre were said to have reached the hearth of Kyne itself.

[lyric bronze]

There also miraak vs the Dragonborn with mora observing but he don’t get maimed

[raw grail]

- Five Songs of King Wulfharth

[lyric bronze]

Unless the loss of his Dragonborn servant is a metaphorical maiming

[raw grail]

Miraak was Sharmat first

[raw grail]

Hmm

Seems a stretch to me but also

It'd be interesting if it was the Skaal but that also feels stretchy

I can't think of an observer that readily fits the bill

[lyric bronze]

Actually the skaal being the observer could fit

They are maimed as a people with the loss of their leader

[raw grail]

I can see the maiming but I'm not so sure about the observing necessarily, they feel a little... Distant

[lyric bronze]

True, but they are an essential part of getting you to miraak

[raw grail]

That's true

[lyric bronze]

How so?

Wait now I’m thinking about it

Bro is very dagoth ur like in his actions

[raw grail]

Even has a golden mask! (I'm half joking)

(Ik that isn't really evidence but it is funny that they're archetypically similar while also sharing some aesthetic similarities)

[raw grail]

But yeah the main issue is he wasn't really a major enemy of Morrowind that we know of until, at the earliest, they acquired Solstheim

Then again, ultimately Sharmat is really just the archetype of the enemiest of enemies, Morrowind edition...

[lyric bronze]

Sharmat is someone who believes they are the true consciousness of the dream?

[raw grail]

That's part of it yes

It's somewhat antithetical to the Psijic Endeavor

Miraak doesn't have that exact theme, either, tbh. Rather, he has more of a "denial of destiny" theme. At least if you believe he's Dragonborn so as to kill Alduin, him saying no to Hakon (not Harkon, I've seen some people get mixed up) and the rest and turning to the God of Fate both speak to it. It also makes him dying at the hands (tentacles?) of fate very ironic but fitting

But I wish we had a better idea to his motives and ideals. I don't think Skyrim did very well in that respect with any of their villains. The only one who really gets much acknowledgement of it is Harkon, and it's kind of boringly just power?

Freedom from the "Tyranny of the Sun"

So he could just go hog wild and eat without worrying about day 💀

[lyric bronze]

Admittedly yeah harkons plan is a bit weak, it should’ve leaned into the forgotten vale and snow elf part of the plot more

[raw grail]

Alduin is confusing. Rn I believe he's trying to rule the world so he can eventually eat it, but I've believed different things at different points in time. We're told he wants to eat the world by everyone else, but that doesn't really make much sense at face value with him seemingly being more interested in establishing rulership. It's kind of saved by the idea that Alduin eating the World is part of the cycle of Ald son of Ald usurping his father (Alduin becoming Akatosh, effectively)

But that's not established in Skyrim ever

That mainly comes from Shor Son of Shor and eventually ESO

It's alluded to by Paarthurnax when he mentions that Alduin lusting for Akatosh's crown was his mistake (paraphrasing), but that almost sounds like the opposite?

Indeed. Alduin wahlaan daanii. His doom was written when he claimed for himself the lordship that properly belongs to Bormahu - our father Akatosh.

[lyric bronze]

Makes Alduin sound almost
Padomaic

From a certain perspective

[raw grail]

Well, that's kind of the trick with both Akatosh and Lorkhan

All of Aurbis is ultimately Anuic and Padomaic both, because it is their intersection

Even the "souls of their souls", AKHAT and LKHAN

[lyric bronze]

I’ve gotta go sleepy now but this has been a great talk

[raw grail]

Gn! I agree ^-^ sleep well

[fathom jewel]

I don't think there's any lore source that says they are exactly the same, but in our discussions we've been drawing inferences. They are all related to sound, after all. Now one could argue that this is a stupid way to look at things; after all, mages speak (or whisper) when casting a spell, and are thus 'using sound.' There do seem to be some differences, though - both between the different 'sound magics' and them in contrast with 'conventional magic.' Again, you speak certain words and make certain gestures, and lo & behold, a bolt of lightning leaps from your fingertips (or a ball of fire, or a spike of ice.) With the Thu'um, however, you're speaking the dragon tongue, with the implication that the language itself contains or somehow summons a special class of magical energies (after all, the fire, ice and lightning shouts are different from what a mage can produce, and there is no equivalent of which I am aware for things like unrelenting force.) Sword Singing implies that the soul of the swordsman/warrior who is singing is central to the weapon or effect that is created. And tonal architecture implies that sound itself is somehow magical or can summon such energies, even without the use of words. Anyway: this is the best I can do in terms of understanding all this. Others may see the issue differently and might have seen lore pages that I have not seen.

[fathom jewel]

So if a group of bosmer kids come to your door during the holiday season and offer to sing christmas carols, you should run away? 😉

[fathom jewel]

So when Akatosh slew Lorkhan, he should also have suffered some sort of harm (at least there is an implication to that effect.)

[raw grail]

The speaking of words and hand motions seem to be mnemonic devices considering one can cast a spell without either

[raw grail]

Possibly xD

[raw grail]

Well, they're on either end. That's like saying "if your left hand is harmed then your right should be"

I want to bring up chemical enantiomorphs again: an enantiomorph is formed by two identical but mirrored molecules. The example I saw from Steve Mould is sugar, which has a spiral to it, and comes in both "left handed" and "right handed" enantiomers

[fathom jewel]

Wait - what I mean is that if one treats Aka and Lork as being 'connected by an aurbilical cord', there's an implication in that along the lines of their connection being a very serious thing indeed, which is why I wondered: if something very profound happened to one, it could very well cause some sort of profound effect to the other. Them being connected by a 'cosmic' umbilical cord suggests such a possibility. Another way to look at it: if these two guys are 'two sides of the same coin', then if one side of the coin is significantly damaged, you could say that the whole coin is damaged. Granted: I may be taking all of this far too literally and I could very well be reading way too much into this. Don't want to argue about it; just bringing it up as a potential topic of discussion. If Lorkhan's murder and mutilation did have an effect on Akatosh, I haven't seen any evidence of it.

[raw grail]

I was reacting to a "should" not a "could". As a possibility, yes, absolutely. Some things do seem to happen across the aurbilical cord, so to speak, to both sides. I also agree with the idea that if one side is damaged, you could say the whole coin is damaged. I don't think that is always the same as both sides of the coin being damaged, though

I don't remember off top rn if there were effects from that but I'm tired so I'm heading to bed was just checking my phone before sleep

[sweet plume]

Ah Sanguine’s Shrine… My Oblivion Memories coming through

[plucky mortar]

I know elves have a longer life span than humans in elder scrolls but what about Bretons with there elvish ancestory do they also live longer ? 👀

[proven moss]

Not noticeably I don't think. Probably would depend on how much merish blood runs through your veins.

Iirc High Rock has a bit of a hierarchy where the nobility tend to have higher amounts of elven ancestry and the commoners less so

[brisk perch]

That was true or at least believed to be in the earlier times, but original hierarchies have been usurped/overthrown by others many times throughout history

[fathom jewel]

Longevity would be either genetic, cell-based or both. Thus, it is entirely possible that Bretons have lifespans similar to those of Altmer. It really depends on the mechanism.

[raw grail]

It's hypothetically possible but we know it's not true

Bretons have fairly mannish lifespans. Cassynder is a prime example: it's said he "aged like a Breton", as opposed to aging like his elven parent

[fathom jewel]

So somebody said about Cassynder

😉

[wintry fjord]

Was Alduin ever mentioned or shown in books before Skyrim?

[proven moss]

Yes. His first appearance in lore was in TES:III books, if I'm not mistaken. Varieties of Faith in the Empire https://www.imperial-library.info/content/varieties-faith-empire and Five Songs of King Wulharth https://www.imperial-library.info/content/five-songs-king-wulfharth

Both of which are great books btw. They don't make 'em like they used to!

[raw grail]

Fun enough, TESV is often regarded as us (LDB) echoing Shor v Alduin in Sovngarde!

Shor’s own ghost then fought the Time-Eater on the spirit plane, as he did at the beginning of time[...]

[fathom jewel]

Great find, Fiore, those are both good reads

[gaunt bear]

I’ve got a question for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction, based on an earlier question I asked.

My earlier question was that ‘what would the Daedric Princes think about the Inquisition, based on their nature/personality?’ and I got that Meridia and Molag Bal, at least, would support the Inquisition, and I was like,

https://tenor.com/view/family-guy-stewie-griffin-say-what-say-whaaat-shock-gif-20602579

So my new question is, ‘Why would Molag Bal and Meridia, whom are usually enemies, support the Inquisition?! And what would the other Daedric Princes think, and why?’

[proven moss]

Afraid I don't know anything about Dragon Age

[gaunt bear]

I’ll get you some information tomorrow, but the basic premise of the Inquisition is ‘Religious zealots and businesspeople seek and restore order to a world fallen into chaos’.

[wintry fjord]

im p sure theres a bioware or DA discord ya know

[raw grail]

I find it difficult to be deeply invested and knowledgeable in too many fantasy worlds at once, personally

Starting to learn one makes another start fading. I haven't been able to really dive into DA as a result. I could imagine the same is true of some other people

[wintry fjord]

Actual TES question, idk if ive asked this before, but what is the overall concensus of Tamriel towards interracial marriages amongst everyday people? I dont rember any particular example

[gaunt bear]

I’m sure the Thalmor, at least, has forbid it completely. But that’s just my opinion.

[raw grail]

Varies heavily by specific pairing and location. Orcs are probably the most universally regarded as "not a good pairing", but especially in High Rock or Summerset. A lot of traditional Altmer are staunch purists. Dunmer are similarly insular, but I think we see that broken a lot (quite a few Emperors have had Dunmeri wives, for example). Cyrodiil is very, very accepting, besides maybe some discomfort around beastfolk and Orcs again

[wintry fjord]

boo racism

[glacial scarab]

Cyrodiil's also a bit weird in that the ones that supported the Orcs were Akaviri or Altmeri Potentates and not Imperial Emperor's.

You can find more negative views from Imperial then positive ones.

[fathom jewel]

I wonder what the actual relationship between orsimer and altmer might be. The orcs were, after all, supremely loyal to Trinimac and stuck by him even after Boethiah's digestive tract permanently transformed him into a daedric monster of sorts, resulting in the disfigurement of his Aldmer followers. I don't see any basis for the Altmer to look down upon Orcs or hold any negative attitudes towards them.

[upper field]

I feel like the Altmer, especially current day versions, wouldn't treat Orsimer any different than they do the other elven races.

[fathom jewel]

Well, I suspect they have no ill will towards the Bosmer. They believe they have the 'right' to govern them, though. As regards the Dunmer, I suspect they consider them enemies and traitors. Think of the history of the Dunmer - how they broke away from the Altmer, rejecting High Elf culture and switching to Daedra worship. Since the Dwemer, Ayleid, Snow Elves and Left Hand Elves no longer exist (as far as we know), how they feel about them at this point isn't relevant. Which leaves only the Orsimer in an 'undecided' status.

[upper field]

I'm curious about how the Thalmor/Altmer in general feel about Mannimarco.

[fathom jewel]

OH! That is an interesting question. He's a mage who aspired to godhood and, arguably, achieved it. Some of the altmer would be repulsed by his obsession over necromancy, but others probably admire him for his achievement.

[sharp lantern]

Necromancy is typically shunned in Summerset's culture, so I doubt many would look favorably upon it.

[fathom jewel]

I hear you. Remember, though, that the Altmer consider their 'rightful' place in the universe as shoulder to shoulder with the Et Ada. Broadly speaking, Mannimarco achieved this. So there might be broad disapproval amongst the Altmer of Mannimarco's methods, but an appreciation of his intent. I am, of course, speculating. This could be worth exploring in the next title.

[raw grail]

He's not only a necromancer, but used to be a Daedra cultist (he started the Planemeld, remember), eclipses the planet of RKHET (which would line up with Xarxes to the Altmer, although we don't know if they identify the planet with Xarxes) creates soul gems that can take mortal souls, and staunchly opposes Arkay

The natural cycles of RKHET is a direct result of Akatosh (which would line up with Auri-El). Some things even refer to Arkay as Akatosh's son, representing the way that natural cycles are derivative of time

[raw grail]

Auri-El and Xarxes are two of the most major gods of Altmeri religion - arguably the most major gods that are worshipped still. Obviously the Thalmor, specifically, are a little out there and radical for Altmer, so I can't speak to their views so much... But Altmer, generally speaking? 😬

I don't know of a source which specifically talks about Altmeri views on Mannimarco (unless you count the Psijic Order), but I wouldn't bet on Altmeri culture to view him very well

Altmer specifically believe in ascension by following in Auri-El's footsteps and attempting to mimic him

Auri-El (King of the Aldmer): The Elven Akatosh is Auri-El. Auri-El is the soul of Anui-El, who, in turn, is the soul of Anu the Everything. He is the chief of most Aldmeri pantheons. Most Altmeri and Bosmeri claim direct descent from Auri-El. In his only known moment of weakness, he agreed to take his part in the creation of the mortal plane, that act which forever sundered the Elves from the spirit worlds of eternity. To make up for it, Auri-El led the original Aldmer against the armies of Lorkhan in mythic times, vanquishing that tyrant and establishing the first kingdoms of the Altmer, Altmora and Old Ehlnofey. He then ascended to heaven in full observance of his followers so that they might learn the steps needed to escape the mortal plane.

You have to do it the "right way" (or what they think is the right way) or get out. That's basically how you got most of the different cultural schisms that elves went through in early history - Psijic Order split off because they started restricting worship to the "ancestors of their betters" (Auri-El, Xarxes, etc) instead of all ancestors. Chimer split off because of disagreements over Lorkhan, ascendancy, organization, and - especially - Daedra. Ayleids split off because of disagreements over Daedra, as well

The Aldmer began to split along cultural lines, on how best to spread creation and their parts in it. Each Tower that was built exemplified a separate accordance.

This sundering of purpose is the myth of the "destruction of Aldmeris."

[fathom jewel]

Nicely detailed. 👍

[raw grail]

Re-reading this, in hindsight, Chimer and Psijic Order at least left willingly, by their own myths. I don't know about the Ayleids, in that regard

[fathom jewel]

I remember reading about a schism within Ayleid society, where some of them remained Aedra worshippers as others shifted to the Daedra. That probably caused some strain in relations between Ayleid and Altmer. Also, I think at a certain point the Ayleid considered themselves to be an independent political and social entity from the Altmer. I don't recall hearing or reading about any outright hostility between the two, though.

[raw grail]

The "Narfinsel Schism" iirc

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Narfinsel_Schism

I remember hearing about Ayleids becoming independent from Altmer as well. I'll check for a source, bc I forget where it's from

I found this but it's not what I wanted

The Aldmeri, who'd been first to begin organized worship of the Aedra, were also the first to venerate the Daedra Lords. This probably began on a small scale among the Ayleids, those Elves who left the Summerset Isles to create splinter cultures in central and southwest Tamriel—in some cases specifically to evade the strictures of Aldmeri regulation, which forbade (among many other things) the worship of Daedra.

I'm too tired rn to keep looking tbh. I'll try again tmrw

[fathom jewel]

Interesting! So the Ayleid had an outright civil war over aedra vs daedra worship. Must have been really ugly.

[gaunt bear]

And really, really messy…

I’ve got another, lore-based question about Daedric Princes interacting with Thedas for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

During Here Lies the Abyss, Max and his companions, Matthias, Inigo, and Lucien tumble into the Fade and encounter the Nightmare (https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Nightmare_(demon) ). But the Skull of Corruption broadcasts the Nightmare’s power and threats straight to Vaermina, who takes umbrage at the Nightmare’s audacity to claim a title that (she feels) is rightfully hers. So she attacks the Nightmare, thereby giving Matt and Max the opportunity to escape without sacrificing a life.

However, the ||Dark Vestige (born from Molag Bal’s revenge curse on the original Vestige)|| still has a grudge against Andraste ||for “stealing his glory”|| and abducts Max because he intends to ||bind the Anchor to himself||, and conquer both Thedas and Mundus for “revenge” because, ||as the curse would have him believe, he would have been emperor but for the rise of Tiber Septim||.

So, my question is, would Vaermina really take umbrage at the Nightmare, both at what it can do and what it claims to be?

[high forge]

Canonically, are the sword singers 100% confirmed to be extinct?

Or there are some room for interpretation that will make them reappear in some future game?

[fathom jewel]

Looks like they still exist in the 4th era, but are quite hard to find. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sword-singers

[sharp lantern]

''During the Middle Merethic Era, Aldmeri explorers mapped the coasts of Vvardenfel [sic], building the First Era High Elven wizard towers at Ald Redaynia, Bal Fell, Tel Aruhn, and Tel Mora in Morrowind. It was also during this period that Ayleid, [Wild Elven] settlements flourished in the jungles surrounding White Gold Tower (present day Cyrodiil). Wild Elves, also known as the Heartland High Elves, preserved the Dawn Era magics and language of the Ehlnofey. Ostensibly a tribute-land to the High King of Alinor, the Heartland's long lines of communication from the Summerset Isles' sovereignty effectively isolated Cyrodil [sic] from the High Kings at Crystal Tower.''
-Before the Ages of Man

[raw grail]

Pingpong?

[raw grail]

Aha. Thank you!

[raw grail]

It's kind of like Tongues: they're so rare that publicly speaking they might as well be

But it should be noted that Sword Singing is not Shehai

Shehai (Spirit Sword) is the ultimate culmination of Sword Singing. Many Sword Singers are never able to manifest their Shehai. Those that have done so at least once are Ansei. Even among Ansei, it's fairly common to only be able to manifest a Shehai during times of duress and danger, or to only be able to manifest a wispy Shehai that isn't really fit for combat

All of that said, the philosophies and martial arts involved with Sword Singing are still fundamental parts of Redguard culture. The Book of Circles, by Frandar Hunding (based on the Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi), is said to be in every Redguard household

[fathom jewel]

If Sword Singing is another tonal/'voice' magic like the Thu'um, how did the Redguard originally learn it? The Thu'um came to the Nords thru Paarthunax (and, I think, Kyne.) I'm assuming the Sword Singing discipline/magic had some sort of divine/immortal origin as well. If the Redguard devised it completely on their own, it would be extraordinarily impressive.

[raw grail]

Well, some Nords and Atmorans knew the Thu'um before Paarthurnax taught it to the Tongues, they just learned it from the dragons in charge of the cult

Dragon Priests and some people who became Draugr could Shout

That said, we don't know. A lot of magic in general was passed on through generations, starting with the gods and Ehlnofey

We know Onsi is credited with teaching them to turn their knives into swords

Onsi (Boneshaver): Notable warrior god of the Yokudan Ra Gada, Onsi taught Mankind how to pull their knives into swords.

Considering the idea that they're trans-kalpic, it could be something they learned to do before

it's really hard to say. This is the closest we have I think
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Redguards,_History_and_Heroes
Which indicates it's a philosophy, art, and magic which developed over time rather than being taught by some divine. Then again, Frandar Hunding and the like may be an aspect of the HoonDing, so... Maybe it is a little divine

To be clear: Sword-Singing does predate Frandar, but he was it's most well known and apparently strongest user

[slate shoal]

I pray we see more snow elves in lore

[fathom jewel]

If we do run into them again, I would guess it would be in the eastern and northeastern part of High Rock, among all those icy mountains and valleys. They probably won't be too sociable. They'll be in relatively close proximity with implacable enemies as well - the Reachmen, the Falmer, probably others. Of course, there's also the possibility we might find another group of them hiding out somewhere deep in the Velothi mountains of Skyrim's eastern border.

[full star]

yo real moment i been playing morrowind. by sithis what is going on at any given time. oblivion's lore was kinda deep, skyrim's too, but this is just insane. then i learned about c0da. i swear to god this is not some game about wizards, dragons and knights; this is dune.

[hazy quiver]

iirc developers cite inspirations for Morrowind as being dune + Star Wars + the dark crystal so yeah, it’s pretty cool

[signal warren]

Dont forget C0DA is not canon

[plain cosmos]

BuT cOdA mAkEs EvErYtHiNg CaNoN! yOu MaKe YoUr OwN cAnOn!

Sorry, couldn't resist the opportunity.

[sharp lantern]

C0DA makes television canon

[proven moss]

And C0DA celebrates that fact

[sharp lantern]

Weird thing to celebrate 🤷‍♂️

[proven moss]

An explanation
Aside from telling "the last story of [Morrowind's] people",[27] C0DA was intended to promote the message that corporate designations of "canon" do not have bearing on the communal enjoyment of the world and lore of The Elder Scrolls.[28] Kirkbride's view was that such terms are oxymoronic with regards to fictional storytelling, and he invited fans to enjoy The Elder Scrolls independently of these labels,[29] stimulating conversations within the community of how canon should be regarded in relation to The Elder Scrolls lore.[30] Kirkbride likened this approach to open source code,[31] free association,[29] and "Yes, and..." thinking.[32]

[sharp lantern]

So again, a weird thing to celebrate.

Headcanon and fanon are already terms that exist. 🤷‍♂️

It's a pretty pointless attempt to make canon a meaningless term.

[proven moss]

So, you get it or you don't get it? I'm confused now. 😅

[sharp lantern]

I get what it is. I just don't get the reason behind it.

Nobody has ever argued you can't enjoy headcanons or mods, so that being the reason why a true "canon" shouldn't exist is pretty bad.

[plain cosmos]

I get the reason behind it. It's an inability to let go.

It's disappointment and dissatisfaction with how those in charge of TES have taken the story and the world, and a refusal to accept that it's time to move on.

So it becomes a desperate attempt to inject your own passion into something you do not control, in order to cling to your love of that thing.

I totally understand it, but I also understand that it's incredibly unhealthy.

[pastel sorrel]

That's a fairly inaccurate and uninformed view of his person

He's been disappointed before but he's made it clear he still likes and has even come around to TES As It Is™️

And he's still writing TES stuff (including Tobias's sword-meeting), just he's got other stuff to deal with too

The principals of c0da also have been generally shared by multiple other devs, if not always in such explicit terms.

TES is primarily your own personal experience of it. Designations of "canon" are secondary.

[balmy salmon]

I used to put a lot of importance on whether the weirder out-of-game lore should be treated as "canon", especially when discussing or speculating on the future of the setting.

What changed for me is when I realized that from a practical standpoint, it doesn't matter because the really weird stuff won't make it into the games, real or not.

[fathom jewel]

Seems to me the way-out-there lore could find expression thru the Creation Club. So there is hope for those who want to explore such stories.

[sharp lantern]

That literally applies to any game, that's the entire point of headcanon.

It's a pointless distinction.

[raw grail]

I particularly like ladyn's reddit post on it, iirc

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/2reyef/what_is_c0da_an_answer/

[plain cosmos]

I literally spoke with him regarding C0DA when it came out, and dealt with this very issue. Well, more argued, but it was a direct engagement. I know what the conversation was, and what the result was.

Don't accuse me of being uninformed about the conversations I've literally had.

That Kirkbride has matured and grown out of that mindset SINCE, and found value and a live of the franchise again, does not change what C0DA WAS when it came out.

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/deep-magic-lion-witch-narnia-dont-recite-gif-14879671

C0DA is, and always has been, an attempt to take something you used to love and no longer do, and force it to be something you love again.

And that is unhealthy.

[lone saddle]

A reminder that it is okay to disagree, but let's keep our conversations constructive and not argumentative.

[pastel sorrel]

It's nobody's place but his own to decide if it's time for him to move on from something obviously still near and dear to his heart like TES, especially considering he's not exactly alone in his views regarding the importance of the individual player's own subjective experience in TES. What c0da was at the time is over a decade and a major Meds Situation ago, it's really not fair to be holding it to old standards that have long passed when it can still be usefully discussed as things are today.

[pastel sorrel]

Terms in relation to hard canon, a term which TES itself doesn't really cleave to

Which means headcanon and fanon aren't entirely useful either

This is 2014 we're talking about, there'd already long been discussions about Canon™️ in TES. c0da was MK's own response.

Sometimes, ascribing labels can in the way of understanding and enjoying the experience.

[sharp lantern]

That is semantics.

[pastel sorrel]

Yes. Which is what's meant to be avoided.

[sharp lantern]

No, what is meant to be avoided is confusing ''canon'' as some kind of ''limit on enjoyment''.

Canon and enjoyment are two different things, because enjoyment is subjective. The idea behind canon, in fiction, is that it is not subjective. Hence headcanon existing.

If you want to mod your game to where the Stormcloaks have the Dwemer returning from wherever to support their cause... good for you! Enjoy it.

But that has nothing to do with lore or canon.

Which, per the perspective of ''yeah you decide canon yourself'', it would be.

Which is what appears to be the whole problem with the ''canon doesn't exist'' camp, they like to act as if you can't enjoy something in a game just because it isn't canon to the game's lore. Which is a ridiculous position to hold.

[steel osprey]

Okay, we know that Vault-Tec is the most evil company in Fallout. But what is the most evil company in Elder Scrolls?

[gaunt bear]

I suppose it depends on your definition of “evil”. Some would, obviously, say the Thalmor are; others the Mythic Dawn Cult; still others would say the Sixth Hous of Dagoth Ur. But which one is more evil than the others?

[steel osprey]

My definition of evil is probably what Vault-Tec was doing; knowing they were doing bad, but choosing to do it anyway. Also, I meant company and not cult (though, Vault-Tec is kind of a cult anyway...)

[gaunt bear]

Well, the Fallout series is more quasi-modern while the Elder Scrolls is more pseudo-medieval.

[steel osprey]

Okay, I suppose that companies haven't really been invented then, so uh... most evil... shopkeeper? I guess that's good enough.

[topaz dome]

So, only people who make money?

[steel osprey]

...Okay my question was stupid to begin with. I mean there is that one bar with the Ratway (people who want to kill you) and the mental asylum

[balmy salmon]

I'd say Camonna Tong. In addition to all the murder, slavery, and other nastiness they took part in, they chose, without any brainwashing on Dagoth Ur's part, to work with the Sixth House.

And they describe themselves as a society of businessmen, so I think "company" roughly applies.

[fathom jewel]

Hmm...the absolutely most evil people or organizations in Tamriel? Ok...

Individuals - Molag Bal, Mehrunes Dagon (who I actually LIKE), Mannimarco.

Organizations - Assassin's Guild. Whatever genocidal faction or factions may be internal to the Thalmor.

[fathom jewel]

I exclude Big Daddy Dagoth because he's so interesting. Clearly not playing with a full deck, but still an intriguing character.

I also exclude Alduin because he's too insubstantial as a character.

[plain cosmos]

Not actually true. The East Empire Company, a trade conglomerate instituted to manage trade predominantly in Morrowind and which then expanded to other territories is a proto-corporation.

In fact, so are the Guilds in how they conduct business.

What we would identify as 'Companies' go back to at least the Roman period, though they often went by different titles (specifically to Republic Rome, they were called Collegia). So just because of its anachronistic medieval window dressing, there is no reason to believe that such institutions do not exist in Tamriel.

[fathom jewel]

OK then - the guilds provide personal services and the East Empire Co is a trade outfit. But you don't really see anything in Tamriel that could be considered a product-producing organization. Example: the dwemer had airships. Why did they not create a corporation that could manufacture them for military and commercial applications? Same thing for the Sload and their flying gasbags. I don't think Tamriel's peoples are particularly enterprising.

[upper field]

So curious: which of the Daedric Princes would be the best to be a follower of?

[proven moss]

Azura, Hircine, Malacath, maybe Sanguine.

maybe Nocturnal

Those would be the safesty options methinks

[plain cosmos]

We know of large scale Armouries that produce consistent and regulated arms and armour. Newspapers which produce public literature and correspondence. Commercially distributed and available wineries and meaderies.

There are actively commercially active companies in Tamriel. We just never engage with the economic side of things.

[fathom jewel]

Azura and Malacath. They seem to genuinely appreciate their worshippers. All the others seem to have the attitude that "I will permit you to worship me, but by granting you such a boon, it means you OWE ME."

[fathom jewel]

Aren't the armorers, newspapers and brewers/vintners all local operations?

[fathom jewel]

I'm thinking in terms of Boeing vs Airbus.

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/banzai-betting-ends-place-your-bets-now-gamble-japanese-gif-26539684

[proven moss]

I definitely agree on Azura and Malacath. Both seem to have a sense of duty to their followers, and Malacath even has something of a code of honor.

My Hircine and Nocturnal choices were more because the daedric princes were relatively indifferent to their followers. They might grant you a boon and won't necessarily interfere with your life unless you offend them.

Most of the others are actively looking to cause trouble, and will likely mess with you for their own entertainment

[high forge]

Honestly man, at this point I believe that the title of "greatest warriors in Tamriel", barring Ansei, is open to interpretation. My simple interpretation are simply the Companions of Jorrvaskr's Circle simply because two of them canonically soloed 101 Orc berserkers in single combat.

I have a soft spot for strong Orc chieftain, but if two Nords solo your entire tribe plus another's, then you're obviously nothing to those two.

Orcs are more about physically large abd strong phalanx meatshields in the front lines of an army, as they are prized as best in the legion... But as far as individual warrior-hood? Skjor and Kodlak are way better tier.

Can't argue with the numbers... That's my own interpretation of things.

[pastel sorrel]

"Greatest warriors" is a useless title; what kind of fighting? In what contexts?

Strongest frontline fighter in the world can still die to an arrow to the head or just bad luck. A child can kill a rampaging monster with a well-placed spear. Nobody truly "wins" in a fight, all you're doing is mitigating the damage and chances of damage to yourself as best you can while inflicting more upon your foe more often.

[glacial scarab]

Greatest warriors means nothing on a battlefield.

Orc berserkers would get run down by cavalry and shot apart by ranged from arrows, bolts or magic.

Hells Tiber and Reman took most of Tamriel with Colovian soldiers. Not Nord, Redguard or Orc just mostly Colovians.

[cerulean plover]

If this is the wrong section for this question please let me know the correct section and I will move it to the correct section and I will delete it from the wrong section. For the elder scrolls series, is it ever explained what would happen if the dark brotherhood was given an impossible task(example- to kill an Immortal aka a being that cannot be killed or permanently kill a daedric lord)?

[high forge]

Well, they would be wise enough to not even put on a contract of an unkillable person.

[fathom jewel]

Seems to me all they would need to do is turn down the contract. But even slaying an Immortal might not be completely beyond the abilities of the DB. Remember that the organization is sponsored by Sithis and perhaps Mephala as well. There might be circumstances where either of those beings would want the contract to be accepted and would also provide the DB the means to carry it out.

[fathom jewel]

Wait - the Colovians are, as suggested by lore, descendants of Nord immigrants and carry on many of their traditions. They are culturally more 'disposed' to warlike behavior.

[glacial scarab]

Hard to tell given what little there is actually ingame to see given how worthless books are.

Like we really don't get much on anything culturally for the Cyrodiils on either side given Cyro-Nordics is an early Cyrodillic name for them since the Atmorans were all over Cyrod after Alessia took over the Ayleid Empire.

One of the few mentions we get is Colovia's "West Kings are resolutely, and religiously, Nordic" which is never shown however it's in a Shezarr book which is its own problem given how non-existent he is for Cyrodiil.

[dark palm]

All I want from The Elder Scrolls 6 is the return of DaggerFall era lore bits that haven’t been covered much, give us a low fantasy HighRock and Hammerfell with medieval/rennaisance politics and druidic practices

The purposeful ommition of EbonArm in Online gives me hope of this

Bethesda seemingly wants to expand upon this lore with their own writers

I just want DaggerFall 2 tbh, with less procedural generation and more handmade content

[fathom jewel]

I'm wondering if Ebonarm is some sort of amalgamation of myths from way back in Yokudan/Redguard history, even before they came to Tamriel. Remember: the Yokudans/Redguard and their pantheon might be from the previous Kalpa (at least that's what I've heard.) Maybe in the war against the Left Hand Elves and then the civil war that followed, various heroic figures rose up to perform tremendous feats for the Yokudan people, and Ebonarm can be traced back to that distant past and those all but forgotten events.

[raw grail]

He's not even really Yokudan

That was an on-the-spot thing from MK. In Daggerfall he was just in the Iliac Bay in general, and I think when Marilyn Wasserman described him it was as a Nord

On The Ebon Arm Edit
I believe Reymon Ebonarm was pictured as a Nord. He was worshipped as a minor deity, or hero saint if you prefer, in the Iliac Bay area. There's at least one shrine to him in TES: Daggerfall. Daggerfall was the last city that the Nords ruled during the First Era.

Ebonarm is another of the Daggerfall beta testers' alter egos, in this case that of Raymond Whit Crowley, who wrote 'Ebon Arm'. His online handle was Barak Halfhand at that time, but that name came from a book so could not be used in TES.

Contrast this with what MK said:

On Ebonarm (1999-04-10) Edit
Gamespeak: Ebonarm, as I recall, is a Yokudan deity, or group of deities that share the same designation. Legends say that he is (they are) just another manifestation of the HoonDing, the Make Way God. Many post-apocalypse manifestations of the HoonDing have individualized (like Diagna), and Ebonarm may be one (or many) of these. He is (they are) known to be adversaries of the Daedric powers.

Designerspeak: I am aware of the tremendous amount of fan fiction devoted to Ebonarm (Dreadlord and such). I don't know what to say about these right now...

And this, later

In 2020, when a fan said that they would trust Maralyn Wasserman’s words about Ebonarm over Kirkbrides, he clarified the above statement:

And you’d be right to do so, I guess? My gamespeak was maneuvering the Ebonarm (hnngh) idea into more contemporary Hammerfell lore where he could do some work.

[raw grail]

And then there's the book, which matches Marilyn's description much better anyways:

All become suddenly still on the field of battle as both sides recognize Reymon Ebonarm, God of War, and the companion and protector of all warriors, also known as the Black Knight and his mighty steed War Master.

. . . . He rides into the middle of the blood soaked field and dismounts. He is a very imposing figure. His very tall and heavily muscled body is encased in ebony armor. His ebony helmet does not hide the flowing reddish blonde hair and beard which appear almost as shimmering gold, nor does it shield the steel blue eyes that seem to pierce all they fall upon.
- The Ebon Arm

[fathom jewel]

Excellent. So there is an abundance of 'half-lore' that BGS can work with to create an Ebon-Arm that makes sense in ES6. Maybe a 'spirit of champions' or 'eternal champion' that is drawn upon or makes itself known in 'times of great need', when humans as a whole are existentially threatened. This could include the HoonDing, all the Nordic heroes of legend, maybe even the Dragonborn heroes. A being like that would surpass Lorkhan, Akatosh or any of the other Aedric or Daedric entities, maybe even bridging across kalpas. Regardless - there is enough that BGS could use effectively if they chose to do so.

[raw grail]

ESO introduced some stuff that might suggest it could be a warrior spirit that embodies local ideals

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Dark_Spirits

[?????] A spirit of vengeance. It has no will of its own, as it was born from Azurah's grief after the death of Fadomai and Lorkhaj. None can summon this spirit save Azurah, Boethra, and Mafala, for only they know its true name. It sometimes appears in songs as a black panther, a warrior in ebony armor, or as a hidden sword.

Which has been used (including by me) to create a potential line to, say, the Ebony Warrior

[dark palm]

He could be an amalgamation of multiple people yeah, that would be a really cool thing to come to light, especially if they ended up becoming one being

[dark palm]

Wait wait wait, Black Knight? This mf is the Ebony Warrior isn’t he

Isn’t the fan concensus rn that he was Shor?

Also some of the theorizing about Ebonarm being replaced by Talos is screaming at me that TESVI is gonna be a spiritual successor to Daggerfall

It would be interesting if one of the main quest options would be to re throne Ebonarm as the ninth divine

[raw grail]

No?

[dark palm]

Idk why I thought that lmao

[raw grail]

He was never a Divine, they're Imperial and Altmeri

[dark palm]

It’s been a while since I’ve listened to the lore podcast so ig I’m rusty, that and people dooming about Ebonarm not being in ESO made me think he wasn’t referenced in Skyrim ig?

[dark palm]

Wdym?

[fathom jewel]

Suggestion: Make EbonArm, the spirit of warriors, separate from both Aedra and Daedra and frightening to both. Think about Anu/Sithis. He is his own dude, and as a fundamental/primal force, is scary strong. Let that be so for EbonArm as well.

[raw grail]

I mean he was a minor god in the Iliac Bay, not one of the major Imperial or Altmeri gods ("Divines")

[dark palm]

This would be interesting yeah

[dark palm]

Yeah that’s the most likely case but there is a theory going around that he wasn’t just a minor god, idk why just saw it earlier when refreshing myself

[raw grail]

There's many other gods like Ius, arguably Y'ffre, others like that which don't fit into the Divines

[raw grail]

He isn't, really, until Creation Club

Theories that fit him and the Ebony Warrior together are doing so based mainly on things outside of Skyrim

Which is fine, I dig them, they're cool

[fathom jewel]

Yeah, Yffre is a weird one. Clearly very important to the Bosmer. Maybe Yffre is an 'aspect' of some other immortal spirit, such as Hircine, Akatosh, Mara or Arkay.

[raw grail]

I used to believe wholeheartedly it was an aspect of KYNRT through the lens of a man-eating forest

But s/he also has some overlap with Dibella

Or may just be a nature spirit of her own

[dark palm]

I’m hoping that we get all of this stuff again, the ESO devs seemingly regretted divinizing HighRock in the base game to have it be more familiar with new players

[dark palm]

Oh yeah this was the theory not Shor

[raw grail]

I hate that all of Valenwood was in base game

[dark palm]

Also good news everyone

The guy that suggested the people of Skyrim to worship the divines has left the company lol

[raw grail]

Oh, Bruce?

[dark palm]

Why?

[dark palm]

Yeah

[raw grail]

Because that means the DLCs can't touch it easily

[raw grail]

I'm surprised you just went and said that in the BGS server xD but yeah he's been gone for a minute

[dark palm]

Oh yeah I heard the dlc quality is much better than base game

[dark palm]

Well I’m sure he was a nice guy but that was a mistake lmao

I don’t have any ill will towards him

[raw grail]

They didn't really care about lore in base game. Fans got mad so they started stepping it up - made the Loremaster position and started fixing some stuff and, moreso, doing better in the DLCs yeah

[dark palm]

If anything the idea makes sense and is interesting but they didn’t flesh out the politics and history of why and how it works out enough

[raw grail]

Oh, I actually don't mind the alliance war

[dark palm]

Yeah I’m glad, they are digging deep with the lore too, shadow magic has been in since the Morrowind expansion and in a big way

[dark palm]

Me neither it just wasn’t executed well

[raw grail]

I think that the factions being made up of usually disagreeing peoples forced together by extreme circumstances is really fun

Especially since they show how dysfunctional they are

[dark palm]

Ohhhh sorry I thought you meant the civil war

[raw grail]

Oh

No no ESO's alliance war

[dark palm]

When I said the history I meant the history of why so many Nords converted

[dark palm]

Ohhhhh okay, rusty my bad

Yeah no I like ESO lore a lot, aside from having too many creatures that outshine the Dreugh lol

[raw grail]

In that case yeah, the Divines thing could have worked if they did better with, in particular, historical representation of religion (e.g. more of the Animal Totem lore in dialogue and books about ancient Nordic ruins, instead of just the puzzles and iconography), and counter-movements to imperialization

[dark palm]

Yeah they kinda just glossed over it for the most part, not much of the old religion shines through like it would realistically

[raw grail]

The Stormcloaks totally should have had a sub-faction, even if just a couple people, of disgruntled followers of the old ways... Or at very least given Froki more dialogue about each of the gods

[dark palm]

I like the idea of the Nords being susceptible to it given the background they share with the Imperials though

[dark palm]

Oh yeah, the vaguely racist rebels thing was weird and made them look too good considering the aforementioned racism lol

Without the religious and cultural conversion concept being included it just makes them look kinda like jackasses

[raw grail]

Eh, idrc about that so much, nationalism, xenophobia, and racism all easily rub up against each other

[dark palm]

That’s my point though, they soft balled the nationalism

[raw grail]

Especially since they talk about the various ways that Nords do accept other peoples in, like when they have us do the ice wraith thing

[dark palm]

Wdym?

[raw grail]

The northern and western [sic] Holds Winterhold, Eastmarch, the Rift, and the Pale, known collectively as the Old Holds -- remain more isolated, by geography and choice, and the Nords there still hold true to the old ways. Outsiders are a rarity, usually a once-yearly visit from an itinerant peddler. The young men go out for weeks into the high peaks in the dead of winter, hunting the ice wraiths that give them claim to full status as citizens (a laudable practice that could serve as a model for the more "civilized" regions of the Empire).

- PGE1

[dark palm]

Interesting, ngl one of my biggest hopes for TESVI is that they actually flesh-out the Reachmen where Skyrim failed to do so

[raw grail]

You mistake me. I'm not saying no - just wondering about your intentions. We're not looking for sellswords. The Stormcloaks need dedicated men and women who're devoted to the cause and willing to die for it.

It's where men have tested their mettle for ages. There's a strange rock formation, built by the ancients. Something about that place attracts the Ice Wraiths. You kill an Ice Wraith out there, and I'll have all the proof I need about you.

[dark palm]

I really feel like the western nords should have been much more like them

[raw grail]

Why?

[dark palm]

The stormcloaks are an odd bunch

[dark palm]

Idk why I said that tbh

[raw grail]

I was reminded of Children of the Sky when you said it

They tend to stay aloof to those they conquer

[dark palm]

I just dislike how none of the npcs were Reachmen and they were basically bandits

[raw grail]

Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky. They call Skyrim the Throat of the World, because it is where the sky exhaled on the land and formed them. They see themselves as eternal outsiders and invaders, and even when they conquer and rule another people; they feel no kinship with them.

[raw grail]

Oh yeah Reachmen should have been more Reach-y

[dark palm]

Yeah, I hope that the cultures in VI are well developed given we are going to be exposed to at least 5 or more of them

Bretons, Crowns, Forebears, Orsinium Orcs, and the Reachmen

Also unrelated but I’m hoping the mouth of the Iliac Bay will be very swampy lol

[raw grail]

Although there were a lot of Reachfolk besides the Forsworn

[dark palm]

Like who?

[raw grail]

Most of the "Bretons" in the Reach were actually Reachfolk, including in Markarth

Most that weren't Forsworn (and some that were) were more "city Reachfolk" or the like

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Cosnach

[dark palm]

Huh I didn’t know that

[raw grail]

They just don't really point it out. You mainly notice it in the name. They have face paint more often too

[pastel sorrel]

TES5 simplifies the local Reachfolk as Bretons gameplay-wise

[raw grail]

That's why I was confused earlier about what you said with Nords and Reachfolk

[dark palm]

That’s on me for bot paying attention lmao

[raw grail]

Tbf I do think it's very subtle and easy to miss

[dark palm]

Realistically aren’t they an amalgamation of Nords, Bretons, and an older human group?

[raw grail]

Skyrim does that too much with lore that could have gone somewhere xD

[dark palm]

lol

[raw grail]

Like - again - animal totems. They're all over the puzzles and murals, but we get nothing for
books or dialogue on them in the game itself

[dark palm]

I thought there was a book?

[raw grail]

Maaaaybe one? But I don't think it expands on them much. Let me check before I keep talking crap

Yeah no not in Skyrim that I can see

[pastel sorrel]

Nords, Bretons, Orcs, Redguards, other Nedic groups, basically everyone in the region.

[dark palm]

Orcs and Redguards is surprising to me

[raw grail]

There was the design doc mk released which was also the basis for a certain of the Prima Guide. There's also books in ESO

[dark palm]

That must be it

[pastel sorrel]

Dev document MK compiled and posted on his Tumblr, it wasn't actually ingame until a modified but otherwise recognizably derived version appeared in ESO

[dark palm]

Isn’t there an implication that they sack Orsinium sometimes?

[raw grail]

Yeah, as do Bretons and Nords

[dark palm]

I’m so glad they just nab stuff from him lmao

[raw grail]

Kind of explicitly, iirc

[pastel sorrel]

Wasn't his document necessarily

[raw grail]

Well, he shared an internal doc

Although iirc he and Kurt were the main ones behind it?

[dark palm]

Ohhhhh I get what you mean now my bad

Idk why my brain has been so dumb recently

[indigo chasm]

felt

[glacial scarab]

If I recall the only actual Breton in Markarth is the cook in the keep.

[dark palm]

Idk if it’s intentional but some weird interactions between the base game Skyrim vampires Hert and Hern and the Volkihar vampires of DawnGuard suggests a weird dynamic between some low level vampires and there Volkihar counterparts

For example they will attack you if you are a level 4 vampire but not if you are a master vampire

They will join vampires in attacking you

And they can be kidnapped by Volkihar vampires

[deft marlin]

I believe that's intentional as the Volkihar as a result of gaining the rare Sanguine Vampiris strain straight from Molag Bal view other vampires outside their clan as inferior cause they usually have the common Porphyric Hemophilia strain. So there's bound to be some animosity and of course they won't attack a Master Vampire as that would be a fatal mistake.

[glacial scarab]

I'd imagine it's more just Hert and Hern being actual NPCs instead of the fodder you usually fight and the NPCs are not important enough for protection like Stentor.

[raw grail]

We get Sanguinaire Vampiris from every vampire in Skyrim

Granted, imo there's possibly (even probably?) at least some that might have Porphyric Hemophilia or another strain. A friend of mine and I have theorized before about, like, Sybille Stentor, Babette, and maybe those two being either Porphyric or maybe even straight up members of the Cyrodiil Vampyrum Order that hides easily among people

But Sanguinaire Vampiris probably isn't rare, at least in Skyrim

And I mean if Immortal Blood is to be believed then, if nothing else, Movarth having Sanguinaire Vampiris is a little weird

[glacial scarab]

All vampires can hide among people. Just the games have been quite bad at making strains unique.

[upper field]

How many strains are there documented?

[fathom jewel]

There's at least three. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire

[dark palm]

Yeah this is what I consider to be it, some believe Hert and Hern fo be direct descendents of Lamae Bal as well which is interesting, given Babette is a vampire I hope to see some intrigue between vampire clans in the Iliac Bay in TESVI

Also, given many marriages of dark elves in DaggerFall and the Red Mountain refugee situation I hope we get to see the Morag Tong return as an institution

I’m interested to see how they adapt the multi ethnic background of the bretons

[deft marlin]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Volkihar

Only the Volkihar have Sanguinaire Vampiris most other vampires in Skyrim have Porphyric Hemophilia.

[dark palm]

I hope we get some really good accents and maybe even languages for RedGuards

Imagine a mix of an Arabic and Japanese accent for the Crowns

I hope we get some more Caribbean sounding accents from islanders and North African from Forebears

Maybe even some West African influence like Bambara from Mali

[raw grail]

No?

Sanguinaire Vampiris was in the game well, well before the Volkihar were added

You're reading that in a very specific way out of context. It's saying that Porphyric Hemophilia is more common (generally speaking, not specifically in Skyrim) but Volkihar have Sanguinaire Vampiris

[deft marlin]

Sanguinaire Vampiris was added with Dawn Guard. Porphyric Hemophilia was in the base game.

[raw grail]

No, it was not

[deft marlin]

Tell that to the devs then.

[raw grail]

I've played before Dawnguard and read the base game prima guide

Both have Sanguinaire Vampiris and nott Porphyric Hemophilia

[deft marlin]

The prima guide is a joke and doesn't use the actual lore.

[raw grail]

So are you just going to dismiss everything that disagrees with you or actually take the info and refine your viewpoint?

[raw grail]

Because this is a kind of funny response right after responding with "tell that to the devs"

[deft marlin]

If you're already a vampire by the time you meet Harkon he will flat comment on your strain of vampirism as being inferior.

[raw grail]

Considering it was written by people talking to the devs, and even includes some things which were cut from the game because they get their information prior to release

[raw grail]

That's not strain that's purity

[deft marlin]

Not going to argue about it not worth my time as my time is money.

[raw grail]

"You contracted a disease, perhaps, but you are no true vampire. Accept my gift and I promise that you will learn the difference. Refuse me, and I will banish you from this castle. I will spare your life this once, but after that, you are prey."

I mean that's fair, you don't have to accept that everything disagrees with you I'm not really trying to persuade you, I'm just presenting information

[deft marlin]

A disease that what he calls Porphyric Hemophilia.

[raw grail]

Source?

The name of the disease doesn't appear in the game even a single time

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Disease

"Sanguinare Vampiris"

Nazir: "You're alive. Then I guess you haven't paid a visit to the vampire yet, hmm?"
You: "Hern is dead.
Nazir: "No sarcasm this time. You faced a vampire, and lived to tell the tale. Well done. And if you contracted Sanguinare Vampiris, be sure to get that taken care of. Else you'll end up like our own Babette. Unless, of course, that was your goal all along. Here's your payment."

Referring to Hert and Hern

[fathom jewel]

The status of vampirism in lore is a bit confusing. There seems to be variability in their strengths, vulnerabilities, feeding requirements and even daedric support. Of course, this could be turned to advantage if BGS chose to do so. Imagine a competition between Molag Bal and, say, Clavicus Vile over control of vampirism in a given province/region. There's quite a bit of storytelling opportunity in that.

[steel osprey]

So random thought; what are holidays like in Elder Scrolls Land? Like Halloween (what do they give as candy?), Christmas (Is there a Santa?), etc

[proven moss]

Well, not a whole lot has been written about TES holidays. I've always encouraged holidays being present in the games, but they have not been implemented since TES II, where they primarily functioned as a day where you could get huge discounts shopping in town. Their presence in Daggerfall however did give us the most significant singular lore about holidays in Tamriel: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/holidays-iliac-bay

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/calendar-tamriel

[steel osprey]

nice

[fathom jewel]

Nice find, man.

[dark palm]

Is mt. tigonus cannon?

[pastel sorrel]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tigonus

[dark palm]

I really hope that TESVI brings back all of the weird creatures Featured in the Wrothgarian Mountains/Western Reach/Craglorn area in ShadowKey

[fathom jewel]

There's never any shortage of weird beasties in ES. Were there any in Shadowkey that really stood out for you?

[dark palm]

Yes

Some of them are already in ESO but some notable ones that haven’t been adapted yet are the floaters, the snowrays, and the spike worms

Also the ice tribes but those might be snow elves or some niche reachmen tribe

Also the Fanged Gouti which I thought was in ESO but isn’t

[fathom jewel]

Whoa. The floaters are spooky. The rays are cool, though. The Ice Tribes make me think of Falmer, to be honest.

[pastel sorrel]

Centaurs when

[fathom jewel]

We've discussed them in the past as potential characters in ES6. There was significant interest in making them more than just monsters or beasts, but an intelligent race of creatures. Any thoughts on that?

[raw grail]

I love floaters!

[fathom jewel]

Are they scary? They're so unusual that they are a bit terrifying to me.

[raw grail]

Idk I find them cute

Umbra'keth scare me a bit more tho...

[fathom jewel]

Oh my. That's almost out of the cthulhu mythos.

[pastel sorrel]

Well I mean, lore-wise they are intelligent

They already exist in TES, they just haven't directly appeared outside of TES2 and Legends.

[fathom jewel]

Just reading up on them now. Maybe we'll see them around the Iliac Bay. Looks like they are mostly a woodland folk.

[slate shoal]

this star Auri-El is depicted with looks like an upcoming Ayleid star in ESO, could be good to use for a temple for him

[fathom jewel]

kinda reminds me of Azura's Star. That's one daedra that constantly surprises me. Almost get the impression she's actually an Aedra who's 'slumming' with the Daedra.

[slate shoal]

She's a daedra, she didn't assist with the formation of Nirn

that's what determines if you were a daedra or aedra if I remember

I've seen some suggest Meridia was a magna - ge but was kicked from aetherius and became a daedra however

[slate shoal]

however, I do see your comparison to it and I can get it

[dark palm]

Is Parthurnaax not the stone of Snow Throat?

[dark palm]

Nvm it seems contentious

[plain cosmos]

The stone remains unknown.

Probably something daft, like the rock the word wall is carved from.

[fathom jewel]

I remember reading about a cave that was supposed to be there. It makes you wonder why the ES5 devs left that out.

[dark palm]

Can someone remind me of that one character that Zenimax accidentally made cannon that was fan made on uesp?

[dark palm]

I’ve heard people say that Shor went into a cave there in a story

[plain cosmos]

Shor, Son of Shor.

[fathom jewel]

Cousin of Shor, and best friend of Shor, uncle of Shor.

😉 (why can't the Nords just call him Lorkhan, btw?)

[pastel sorrel]

Lorkhan's his Aldmeri name, possibly more of a title per se (Doom Drum, after all)

Whereas his own people more commonly know him as Shor, Sheor, etc.

Occasional exceptions like the Reachfolk knowing him as Lorkh instead

[gaunt bear]

I’ve come up with an interesting thing for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction about Lorkhan:

Without his heart, Lorkhan had to rely on the faith of mortals in order to complete his rebirth/renewal. But because of how both humans/Nords and Elves view him, there was a bit of a… complication…

Akatosh/Auriel: They split him right down the middle! Now I have two half-brothers!

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tuss-jokes-gotcha-burn-ouch-gif-5645546

Me: * cough cough * Anyway, the light half of Lorkhan’s soul became the (relatively) new god, Shor, while the dark half became an entirely new god dedicated to darkness, evil, and opposing his brothers. While he hasn’t been named yet, the Inquisition have taken to calling him Chernabog.

[fathom jewel]

I'd give the 'evil twin' lorkhan a different name - something that lends itself to humor, maybe, like "Biff" or "Chad" 😉

[gaunt bear]

I tried that once. He didn’t appreciate it. ||Took me over a week, non-stop, to have that vorpal blade removed from my rectum.||

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/marvin-the-martian-marvin-bugs-bunny-movie-gif-10618341593736938679

[high forge]

Which is more lore accurate? ESO race appearances? Or Skyrim race appearances?

I remember meeting an actual high elf in ESO with my wood elf character and was absolutely blown away by how tall they were. That's nowhere near like Skyrim proportions.

[glacial scarab]

I wouldn't say there's anything lore accurate since it's just art style that changes with each and every game. Espically when it's limiting it to one "race"

[dark palm]

So I just realized that Tigonus in DaggerFall is probably meant to be like the Nile River Delta

[gaunt bear]

Did anyone get my joke about 'half-brothers'?

[lyric bronze]

I think ESO is more lore accurate. There are textual references in the games to Bosmer being short and Altmer being tall

[plain cosmos]

It depends on which race, and which details. And which lore or how you interpret it.

[fathom jewel]

In every ES title I've played, the dunmer and bosmer were somewhat diminutive while the Altmer had a bit more range, with some being rather tall and lanky. However, I don't think we should be locked into this. After all, there's nothing wrong with strolling thru the forests of Valenwood and suddenly coming upon a group of bosmer who all look like they play in the NBA. It's 'out of character', but so what? The generalities of differences between the tribes are ok with me, yet exceptions should be not terribly unusual. For example: the orc who was the librarian in the College of Winterhold in Skyrim. Orcs aren't 'supposed to be' mages, but the NPC who served the role of the chief mage in charge of the library was both well presented and interesting in the game. I thought it was cool. Notice also that the Jarl of Whiterun had a chief of security/captain of the guard who was a dunmer female. I actually find these sorts of 'exceptions' to standard lore to be quite entertaining, and BGS has done a good job of making those NPCs credible while at the same time not making a big deal out of it (which is the right way to do it.)

[pastel sorrel]

Heights are average, you should go by the available height slider ranges and not only what older games without said sliders had

[high forge]

Everything in Elder Scrolls Online are canon in lore, correct? And all expansions are pre Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim time line?

[topaz dome]

https://x.com/TESOnline/status/372017971423498240?lang=en

The Elder Scrolls Online (@TESOnline) on X

@SeamusWho Yes, #ESO is canon. We work closely with Bethesda to ensure that all lore in ESO is historically accurate & canon-appropriate.

Twitter · Aug 26, 2013, 3:29 PM

[fathom jewel]

ESO is in the 2nd era - if I remember correctly, it is set in 2E 582 or so. All the single player ES games are farther in the future. ES1 Arena was set in 3E 389. ES2 Daggerfall was 3E 405. ES3 Morrowind was 3E 427. ES4 Oblivion was 3E 427. And ES5 Skyrim was 4E 201.

We don't yet know when ES6 is set, though the common assumption is that it is set far enough after 4E201 that the Last Dragonborn is no longer around.

[sharp lantern]

Expansions take place after the main game

[dark palm]

Has Mannimarco ever done anything god like?

[deft marlin]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mannimarco

[proven moss]

In Oblivion, the moon Mannimarco can turn your grand soul gems into black soul gems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-_zhkBbCN8&t=60s

That's the only godlike thing I think we've seen him actually do, to my knowledge

[high forge]

The same way that there are lesser daedra, are there lesser aedra that serve the divines?

[proven moss]

That's essentially what mortals are

Take the Altmer belief system for example

Originally there were a whole host of aedric spirits, both strong and weak: our ancestors. And the Aldmer revered them as such. But eventually, as Aldmer society stratified, only the ancestors of the elite were revered and worshipped. These are those we now call 'the gods.'

[high forge]

So Fiore, the ancestors of wood elves was the ooze? Is that right?

[proven moss]

The ooze (as TES:O calls it) is just the state of being before they settled onto a consistent form.

Like how daedra can take any form they please

[dark palm]

He really got up there thinking someone would stop him, bro doesn’t know wtf he’s doing 😭

Also didn’t he make those before god hood?

[high forge]

So tho ooze is just a Bosmeri word for the the Elnofey?

(Edited. Read again please.)

[proven moss]

Mmm, I wouldn't say that. It's more like a state of existence, a state of chaos. You could say the Ehnofey lived in this state of chaos, the Ooze. But the Ooze isn't people.

[proven moss]

Well they first showed up in Oblivion. But all the games contradict each other when it comes to Black Soul Gems, so we needn't open that can of worms. ||🪱💀||
But in Oblivion it was the Necromancer's Moon (Mannimarco) that was supposedly doing it.

[fathom jewel]

Interesting. Mannimarco has ambitions to be as powerful as any Daedra.

[proven moss]

you could say the ehnofey lived in this state of chaos
An error on my part there. See
Y'ffre (God of the Forest): Most important deity of the Bosmeri pantheon. While Auri-El Time Dragon might be the king of the gods, the Bosmer revere Y'ffre as the spirit of 'the now'. According to the Wood Elves, after the creation of the mortal plane everything was in chaos. The first mortals were turning into plants and animals and back again. Then Y'ffre transformed himself into the first of the Ehlnofey, or 'Earth Bones'. After these laws of nature were established, mortals had a semblance of safety in the new world, because they could finally understand it. Y'ffre is sometimes called the Storyteller, for the lessons he taught the first Bosmer. Some Bosmer still possess the knowledge of the chaos times, which they can use to great effect (the Wild Hunt).

[deft marlin]

The fact he was a mortal that ascended to godhood would be considered another.

[proven moss]

I mean technically speaking 'ascending to godhood' is not a very godlike thing to do.

[deft marlin]

I would agree if he had been raised up to godhood by another god, but he gained it on his own which makes a big difference.

[proven moss]

I just mean that ascending to godhood is something gods never do, because they're gods. It's really something mortals do.

[deft marlin]

I know what you're saying, but what I mean is to develop a divine spark without being born with one is a godly feat. As only a god or demigod should have one, a mortal should only get one if a god gave them one.

[pastel sorrel]

Mortals are just cut-down forms of the gods who possess means to reascend; it's possible all the gods are mortal mantles (like the Psijics hold).

[dark palm]

Oh nvm

[dark palm]

Tbf the Psiijic Order thinks most gods are ascended mortals

[proven moss]

If that's the argument then "god-like" is a distinction without a difference from "mortal-like."

[pastel sorrel]

Yes.

And I mean, we've had gods die. And we've had mortals fight them successfully.

Mortals are the gods of Nirn just as much as the Divines and whatnot are, but often don't quite realize it.

[high forge]

Were the Ayleids active and alive during the Second Era? Or were they already long gone? Or were about to be active in Tamriel as soon as ESO Second Era timeline gets done?

[fathom jewel]

Sounds to me like they basically disappeared sometime in the 2nd era, maybe shortly after the Plane Meld. Lore is a bit loose on the particulars, though.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleid#The_Late_Ayleid_Period

[balmy salmon]

The Ayleids were driven out of Cyrodiil by the Alessian Order during the First Era. They took refuge in other elf nations like Direnni-controlled High Rock and Camoran-ruled Valenwood, where they integrated with the locals and eventually ceased to exist as a distinct mer culture.

[coral girder]

been some rumors that es6 will potentially be set in the 5th era

that would be interesting to see

[upper field]

So curious about something: can Daedric artifacts change their appearance at the will of the creator, and can multiple copies exist?

[raw grail]

I don't think it needs to be set far in the future for that

As is often mentioned, the first 4 games took place within the same like 2 decades. Arena started 4e 389. Oblivion ended the 3rd era in 433

Morrowind was 427. There was only like a 6 year gap between Morrowind and Oblivion. The way I see it, it takes a lot less than a year for a hero to get on a boat and start sailing far far away. As with the Nerevarine, they don't even have to confirm it happened, or how, or why, or when, and in fact it would be detrimental to do so since it robs player agency over their character

[raw grail]

The Princes didn't even create many of them, but probably, yeah. Daedra themselves are able to be forced into other shapes, like Bound Weapons. It's sometimes said that Daedric Artifacts are formed from the essences of their respective Prince in similar fashion, and so they can also probably be forced into different forms

In fact, daedric artifacts are known to be formed from the essence of a Daedric Lord, from whence they derive their great power. Not an easy thing to come by, obviously, but we will need a daedric artifact. Bring it to me when you have acquired one.
- Martin Septim

We also know they're able to reform. That said, having multiple formed at once... Hm. I have a bell ringing somewhere at the edge of my mind, I think there's at least an artifact we've heard of that with, but I don't remember what...

[upper field]

I'm curious because of the Skeleton Key turning from a reward in Oblivion to a plot point for the Thieves' Guild in Skyrim.

[raw grail]

What does that have to do with multiple appearing?

That's mainly just how the game utilizes it rather than a change in the actual artifact

[raw grail]

One artifact that I can think of that is arguably in a couple places at once if you take potential mistakes as lore: Gelebor claims that he's had Auriel's Bow for a looong time but we can also literally wield it ourselves in older games

Buuuut I often just chalk that up to them not thinking about that when writing his dialogue, and even so, it could have also left and reappeared several times without necessarily contradicting his dialogue

That's hardly Daedric tho...

[upper field]

I know, but at the same time would it make sense for Nocturnal to gift people who earn Her favor the Skeleton Key when it's needed to be kept in the Twight Sepulcher?

[raw grail]

Ahh I see what you mean now

[pastel sorrel]

The Blade of Woe explicitly does this if that counts

Every BoW is the BoW, even at the same time.

[dark palm]

Is the majority of Highrock a Karst formation area?

The peaks look a lot like South East Asia

[dark palm]

I find it interesting that Saint Jiub canonically got soul trapped during the daedric invasion of Kvatch

[proven moss]

It was a bit of an odd decision I think

But it was a fun callback

[balmy salmon]

He handled the revelation that he was dead for 200 years and trapped in the Soul Cairn rather well.

I'm hoping to see the next volume of his memoirs show up in a later game, ideally without providing any explanation for how he got them published while dead and trapped in Oblivion.

[ornate dirge]

Hi guys I have a question about a bit of Lore in 2 of the elder scrolls games.

As an avid ESO player and a Morrowind veteran, I've incessantly contemplated (and been a bit obsessed over) the fact that 2E 582 "Mournhold" is not the same layout at ALL as the 3E 427 "Mournhold". I initially thought that the third era version was built on top of the second era version, thus resulting in the underground ruin, "Old Mournhold," but, upon research, learned that "Old Mournhold" is the remains of a battle from the first era between Almalexia and Mehrunes Dagon, which put me back at square one: the reasoning behind the layouts of second era and third era mournholds.

I'm assuming it's merely because they're two different games using different engines and different generations of consoles, etc., but wanted to get the opinions of other people who have played both games

By the way, if this isn't the channel for this question (I assumed it was lore-related but meh) please lemme know lol I'd like to know the right place to get my answers!

[patent edge]

Little theory that backs up the idea that Elder scrolls VI takes place in Hammerfell. In elder scrolls castles the starting race you begin as is a Redguard, and in the shop it very much is Redguard focused (Redguard packs) even giving you the option to make your castle look like a Redguard one. And no other race gets this treatment.

[pastel sorrel]

It's just tech. TES3's version was principally designed around the limitations of the time, such as being its own collection of cells because the engine didn't handle separate worldspaces yet (look at what TR's gotta deal with)

(hence then the levitation limitation too)

[ornate dirge]

Goootchaaa, I didn't know if there was a piece of Lore I was missing somewhere between the events of eso and morrowind lol

Thank you so much

[pastel sorrel]

There's none indicated, it's just the passage of time and technological improvement

Could be it gets redesigned in the centuries in between, it's not always clear what's a genuine change and what's just it being set in the past.

[ornate dirge]

Gotcha, that makes sense. There are loads of Lore things that kinda confuzzle me with Morrowind compared to other games in the franchise but I guess technological capabilities to play a part in all of that

[slate shoal]

weird thing I thought about!

looking at the hair of a dead female Falmer, you'll notice that her hair is tied up with neat leather wraps, AND what looks to be brass caps at the end??? and

she also wears a circlet made from possibly chaurus chitin and it contains an emerald, implying the Falmer are capable of creating their own jewelry, something you wouldnt expect them capable of

[pastel sorrel]

I mean, they made homes and armors and weapons, I wouldn't expect jewelry to be that difficult

[patent edge]

Or could be left over from there Snow elfin days

[dark palm]

Does anyone else feel like Bosmer culture and Bretonic Druids are both off shoots of old altmeri culture?

[gaunt bear]

I’ve got a question for all lore geeks here: When was Divath Fyr born?

[high forge]

Were the dwemer already a long lost race during the events of ESO?

[gaunt bear]

When was the disaster at Red Mountain? Wasn’t that when the Dwemer disappeared?

[upper field]

ESO takes place during the 2nd era.

[high forge]

No idea. That's why I'm asking. lol

[upper field]

I believe the Dwemer disappeared during the First Era?

[high forge]

Ah gotcha. Thanks Blaze.

[upper field]

Basically whenever they attempted to tap into the Heart of Loarken.

[high forge]

The main thing about my question is that I don't know if the Second Era of ESO was only 2 years or 200 years after the end of the First. For all I know, the dwemer disappeared just three years before the Vestige entered the scene. And then would we really call the dwemer an "ancient civilization" if just four years ago they were still chillin' with us with their Dwarven ale taverns?

[upper field]

You should be able to look up the time placements of the First and Second Eras.

[high forge]

For crying out loud man just figure it out for me and tell me. Good grief.

[balmy salmon]

ESO starts in 2E 582, approximately a century and a half after the assassination of the last Akaviri Potentate.

The Dwemer disappeared around 1E 668, so the Dwemer had been long vanished by this time.

I've no clue where Yagrum Bagarn would be during this time, however I assume he hasn't yet got Corprus since Dagoth Ur won't be waking up for another 300 years.

[high forge]

How...... Long?

Oh God, I needed to read that and you took it away.

Oh my bad. I thought you edited it off to spite me.

[balmy salmon]

If I calculated correctly, in ESO the Dwemer have been gone for approximately 1826 years not including the 1008 year Dragon Break.

[dark palm]

The Kamal are probably descended from Atmorans given how ESO item descriptions compare Kamal axes to Nordic ones as being derived from the same thing, although that think is ice axes which are necessary in any icy condition but it could be a link

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/don't-be-rude-dr-jean-thibodeau-the-umbrella-academy-mind-your-manners-be-respectful-gif-9323872278666240585

[dark palm]

This is just my opinion but I think the whole non human morality thing with the daedra is just a cop

They are god like beings with god like brains and information consumption ergo they have immense flaws are are subject to heavy amounts of mental illness

Given their nature as explained in the Gold Road expansion they are very hard to change the perspective of

I think they are all just really mentally ill

[dark palm]

I guess what I’m trying to say is that we should remake Akulakhan and get a lot of therapists to pilot it

[glacial scarab]

1E 700 — Battle of Red Mountain.
1E 2920 — The last year of the First Era.
2E 582 - ESO's Crisis of the Sixth Century

So a time gap of 2,802 years so would feel like a long lost race.

[high forge]

Hey... I know the high elves have always believed they are racially superior... But what was their attitude towards their wood elf cousins and dark elf cousins?

[proven moss]

Depends on the Altmer you ask, really. The Aldmeri Dominion for example has a vaguely pan-elven ideology. But, both Bosmer and Dunmer have been looked down upon by Altmer, for different reasons

Bosmer for their "barbaric" practices, and sometimes for their friendliness towards men. Dunmer for their heresy

[high forge]

Thanks.

With that said, everyone, altmer included, consider the Orsimer an outcast, huh?

Because the Imperials allowed those guys to be businessman in the Imperial City, even though the game portrayed them as uneducated brutes.

[upper field]

Nords allow an Altmer to run an Alchemy shop and not live in the Gray Quarter.

Well...before he kicked the bucket anyway.

[glacial scarab]

There's also Altmer sisters running the clothing shop in Solitude

[upper field]

Yeah, but the one in Windhelm gets more credit being the fact it's the center of the Stormcloaks.

[sharp lantern]

Because only Dunmer are confined to the Gray Quarter. Hence its name.

[balmy salmon]

Given his apparent age, it's quite possible that Nurelion has been in Windhelm since before the Stormcloak movement started.

[pastel sorrel]

Well the rebellion's only been going on a few months, so that'd be easy. The Stormcloaks as a faction have only been around for a few years IIRC.

[sharp lantern]

More than a few, but no exact date given. We know Vulwulf Snow-Shod was a Stormcloak in his "younger days", and both Vulwulf and Solaf refer to Stormcloak-Legion clashes many years ago.