elder-scrolls-lore

[plain cosmos]

Yeah.

It's frustratingly inconsistent in that way. You can't have it both ways.

[stark parcel]

Quit lying

[plain cosmos]

I have to lie, because my true criticisms are against the rules on polite conversation.

[proven moss]

Giving credit to Bethesda though, they've written early 1st Era texts that sound appropriately archaic

[stark parcel]

Bees are in the game

[proven moss]

Holdings of Jarl Gjalund, Calcemo's Stone, The Song of Pelinal, The Adabal-a, et cetera

The Word Walls

[stark parcel]

Nuh uh

[fathom jewel]

A few thoughts:

1. I would bet that whatever feuds the nords had in Atmora came over to Skyrim, and there was a pretty long period of instability. Worse than the Greek city states; more like the feuding and predatory warfare of the early scandinavians and germans.

2. If memory serves, the dragons were defeated and Alduin banished sometime towards the end of the Dawn Era, and the dragon priests and their acolytes were overcome early in the 1st era. What that means, though, is that the Nords lived side by side with the Dwemer for perhaps thousands of years, and for about 2000 or so years after their disappearance the Nords still had access to their abandoned cities. Yet it appears that the Nords have made absolutely no attempt in all that time to understand Dwemer technology and adapt it to their own needs. I find that lack of curiosity to be quite puzzling.

[proven moss]

I don't think feuding was that bad or even all that likely or necessary to explain disunion. We should take the 500 Companions literally. They weren't followers of Ysgramor, but equals. So they owed him no fealty and judging accounts of the Return, after Saarthal was reconquered they all went in their own directions.

[proven moss]

I think you meant Merethic here, rather than Dawn. But yeah, it seems like the Dragon War occurred before the Merethic Era ended. And yeah the Nords and Dwemer did live alongside each other for some time. The Nords conquered many Dwarven strongholds under King Gellir circa 300, but saw those gains lost during the War of Succession.
The Dwemer are famous for being secretive and keeping to themselves, and the Nords are famous for not being that intellectually curious, so it may not be so puzzling as to be unbelievable.

Although... we don't really have any evidence against that possibility. Nord mages and whatnot might have been interested but their records perhaps just did not survive.

[plain cosmos]

According to the Aetherium Wars, the sudden collapse of the Dwemer city states in Skyrim was attributed by the Nords to the military brilliance of one of their kings. This implies that there ARE surviving records of conflict with the Dwemer during that time, though we don't have them ourselves.

After the collapse though, the Nords seem to have been full into their superstitious dislike of outsider knowledge. So they just left things abandoned for the most part.

As far as the Dragon Wars go... If the Return happened around M2000, that would give us about 600 years for the rise of Nordic culture in Skyrim, the Dragon War, and the establishment of modern Nordic traditions.

For context, this is about the same time period in which Israel rose, fell, and Judiasim was formulated and solidified in the real world.

So it's definitely doable.

[plain cosmos]

Though, really, Nordic history and religion gets pretty heavily misrepresented both in-universe and in lore discussions.

In-universe, that's acceptable. People misrepresent other people's religions all the time. Just look at the history of Christian Persecution of Pagans, Jews, other Christian sects, Muslims, etc. as a single example. Even otherwise tolerant theologies such as the Zoroastrians still frequently misrepresented other faiths and beliefs through the lens of their own biases and agendas.

So the Imperials describing early Atmoran-Nordic faith as Totemic is sorta par for the course with how non and even developing academic historiographies tend to work.

What ISN'T so much acceptable is the continued lore community adopting this same trend. The Atmorans and Nords were never Totemic, in what we see. They viewed various creatures as representative of fully realised god-concepts. The same gods that most everyone else recognises.

So the transition from Idol-representation to more abstract enshrinement isn't nealy as significant a shift as is typically viewed by the community.

[sweet plume]

In ESO’s Eastern Skyrim we do see a group of worshippers of Animal Totems and Spirits

[plain cosmos]

If have to double check if they're actual totemic. It's been years

[sweet plume]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ternion_Monks

[plain cosmos]

Based on that article, then no. They're still Polytheistic simply using the animals as living idols of the gods.

[sweet plume]

Their religion itself is ancient, dating back the Atmorans and their worship of the animal totems. The monks are also known for their healing magic and can call forth aspects of the Three Old Gods. With the help of these spirits, the monks can perform tasks beyond the scope of mortal limitations. Such practices were connected to the Clever Craft. They understood that "after a life spent gazing into the future, perceiving the mundane is not so difficult"

The Ternion Monks typically worship and meditate in holy retreats that are almost inaccessible to outsiders. Often, access to these temples is only possible with the use of magic, and entry to outsiders is only granted if they are in great need and are worthy. By the Second Era, the order was in decline as very little proselytizing took place and fewer and fewer converts took up the worship of the Three Old Gods.

[plain cosmos]

The problem is, that's not what totemic religions are. It's a common pop-culture misrepresentation OF them, but not actually totemic.

[sweet plume]

What would you say it is? I wouldn’t know really.

[plain cosmos]

A totemic religion is one in what individuals are believed to have connections to individual spirits of living things, typically plants or animals.

You don't connect to a Bear God, you connect to a particular Bear's spirit.

[sweet plume]

This definitely is more their own take on it, it appears anyway.

[plain cosmos]

It's worth noting of course that we don't have a whole lot of surviving information on cultic practices for Totemic cultures, as they were almost universally illiterate and few survived into the written record of other cultures.

But it does seem that in most cases, the death of an individual's Totem, or Totems, was considered a great loss and resulted in the same sort of mourning you'd expect for a family member. One of the mist common finds we have regarding Totemic cultures are Totem Burials, where an animal is buried in a similar way to what you'd expect for a human of that culture.

There's some argument to be made that a lot of the early domestication many animals may have gone hand in hand with totemic worship. But that's a whole other topic...

[sweet plume]

Regardless those Ternion Monks are a dying order. Especially considering they are nowhere to be found by TESV

Honestly it seems to be a theme with Skyrim with what ESO adds, that a lot of there old ways are dying.

[plain cosmos]

Probably for the best. Tradition is a crutch used to hide from progress.

[sweet plume]

The Clevermen are a dying thing in ESO when we get to Western Skyrim, we only meet the One but it’s explained they are dying out as well.

[plain cosmos]

Somewhat thematically... As time goes on, the Nords go from what was effectively a complex, militaristically organised society, to an increasingly brutish and dogmatic and singularly minded culture. We even see this with the rise of Talos and the monolatry hat comes with it.

They go from being Lorkhan/Shor's army with all the complexities that an army needs, to little more than a one trick pony of ineffectual thugs.

[sweet plume]

Honestly tho it recontextualizes TESV when I see these things.

[plain cosmos]

I can see why.

Personally... I've always had a low opinion of the Stormcloaks simply because you CAN'T go back. You CAN'T restore ancient cultures and traditions. Because you exist outside the context in which they did.

Best you can do is reinvent them through your own lens. Any claim to the contrary is simply an appeal to tradition. A fallacy.

Among their other problems.

And Talos. I HATE Talos.

[proven moss]

Merethic is dated backwards (like BCE) so with the 600 figure you're suggesting something like Merethic Era 500 rather than 2000. I think that's completely fair, since the comment made in Frontier, Conquest, and Accomodation basically implies 600 to be the earliest possible date for the Return (800-1000 being "centuries" before Ysgramor).
I tend to think it happened later, based on Harald being the 13th in Ysgramor's line. You can do a "calculation method" by using the average reign of the Septim emperors (22.6 years) or an average of the handful of Nordic kings we know (31.8 years) and then calculate backwards (from the start of Harald's reign, mind) you get an rough estimate of the Return occuring in ME 128 and ME 239 respectively. Makes sense but seems somewhat short for the whole drama of the Falmer and Dragon Cult storylines to have happened (200-350ish years?)
So there's a couple possibilities:

1. the average reigns of Ysgramor and the 12 "legendary kings" is quite a bit longer
2. the hints we've had to the effect that Ysgramor is a composite historical figure and not a single person are true
3. this calculation method is ballpark correct
4. ...magic?

[plain cosmos]

Sodding bollox, how could I forget it's counted backwards...

But yeah, it's still a reasonable timeline.

Now, personally, I dismiss the idea of the 500 being literal out of hand. That's Ahnenerbe level Nordic Ubermensch nonsense.

Now, 500 odd captains each with a ship of about 100 people for some 50,000 invaders? That's a usable number.

The rapid influx of that many people, and the rapid formation of multiple communities and then cities in short order, not to mention the mountain of looted wealth from the Falmer, could explain the social shift that led to the circumstances that created the Dragon War in the first place.

Weak kings, ambitious priests, and a mountain of wealth and land, is going to rapidly drive social shifts. Shifts which the Dragons then had to step in and try to halt.

[balmy salmon]

I think part of it is that up until recently, they were part of the Empire. Now that some of them are looking to go independent, it'll take a lot of effort to become self-sufficient and to once again raise a fully self-contained military.

[plain cosmos]

It's less having a military, and more the shift in social organization from one which forms a cultural military.

The ancient Atmorans had a social order that basically functioned as a culture-wide military. Musicians and messengers (Bards) Chaplains (Priests) Generals (Kings) Engineers and Mages (Clevermen) etc.

Now, these are generally pretty standard social strata of course. But the collapse of Nordic cultural diversity mimics the collapse of military sufficiency. You lose the specialists first, until only the grunts are left.

[balmy salmon]

I suspect that as Legion veterans, Ulfric and Galmar would somewhat emulate the Legion's professional organization rather than one based on social class.

[plain cosmos]

Militarily, yeah. Socially... It's a lot more complicated to build those sorts of institutions that they've lost.

I meant it less in actual militaries, and more in how ancient Nordic institutions and responsibilities mimicked the major branches and roles in a military.

[gaunt bear]

I’m doing something for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction, and I’d like some advice for it.

In it, Maxwell and Matthias and their companions get caught in a vortex of yellow light, and Dorian determines that “it’s not simply where, it’s when”. When they encounter a low-level Dragon Cultist, Dorian asks them about today’s date, but their answer stuns them all.

Dorian: What?!?! That means we’ve gone back in time!!!

Matthias: Back to the height of the Dragon War.

So, my question is, what would be a good time in the Dragon War for them to “go back” to?

[plain cosmos]

When the Atmorans are getting their teeth kicked in. BEFORE Partysnax defects.

[gaunt bear]

Yes, but I need a number.

[plain cosmos]

Oh we don't have that.

It probably wouldn't even be dated on a recognizable way, because the current Tamrielic dating system wasn't invented yet.

[gaunt bear]

So nobody minds me using “(the year) 3434 of the Merethic Era”?

I was going to have that as an Easter Egg reference to the Lord of the Rings.

[plain cosmos]

Well, it probably wouldn't be that. Since the Merethic was only about. 2500 years.

[gaunt bear]

Okay, thank you. So it would probably be between the years 2400 and 2500, right?

[plain cosmos]

Probably around there, yeah

[gaunt bear]

Thank you.

[plain cosmos]

If you want the 3434 reference, you could have it be the 3434th day of the reign of X. Putting it about 9.5 years into the reign of said king, from which the characters can roughly extrapolate the year.

[sweet plume]

Merethic Era goes from Highest Number to Lowest in Order correct?

Tbf that gets me to

[plain cosmos]

Shoot. Yes, I did it again.

So it would be 1-100me, not 2400-2500me

[gaunt bear]

The reference I was going to use was, in the year 3434 of the Second Age, the Last Alliance besieged Barad-dur, and it was the year 3441 that Sauron was defeated.

[plain cosmos]

Ahhh

Alas, none of Tamriel's eras have that many years.

Longest is the first, with 2920 years.

[gaunt bear]

So, do you think 34 or 41 would be a better year?

[plain cosmos]

I'd say 41 myself. Puts it slightly further back.

[gaunt bear]

Another thing I’ve got planned is that Alduin, with the aid of a rogue Dwemer scientist-mage (with even loftier goals), blends demon, daedra, men, mer, and beasts (I.e. Argonians and Khajiit) in order to create the Tamrielic equivalent of Uruk-Hai.

What do you say to that?

[plain cosmos]

It's personal bias, but I think it's most likely that the Dragon War rose out of the first two to three generations of Nords in Skyrim.

Enough to remove them from the Atmoran homeland in identity, but still close enough to the affluent abundance of the sack of the Falmer civilisation...

[plain cosmos]

I'm not sure the Dwemer is needed there.

Maybe instead invoke a bit of Khajiit myth... And reinforce the sometimes implication that Alduin is related to Molag Bal. Just as Sauron is related to Morgoth.

[proven moss]

Funnily enough, the Third Era almost seems to be a reference

[plain cosmos]

And we know Bal can twist and combine the essences of others to create new things. He did it with the Daedric Titans.

[proven moss]

3E433 was the last year

[gaunt bear]

Sauron is not related to Morgoth. Sauron was Morgoth’s servant, who was loyal to him above and beyond his other masters.

[plain cosmos]

I don't mean biologically, I mean more through association

[gaunt bear]

Just making sure.

[plain cosmos]

A lot of what Sauron ultimately does, he learned from Morgoth and sought to emulate and improve.

I mean, hell. You could even make Alduin trade some of his Dragon minions to Bal in return for the aid in creating these new servants.

Maybe even set a narrative connection between Bal and Boziikkodstrun through this exchange, to build on the latter's ultimate fate.

[gaunt bear]

Bozii-what?!?!

[plain cosmos]

Oooh... There's an idea... Alduin makes a deal with Bal for help creating his new army. In return, when they win, Alduin will teach Bal the secrets of the Dragon's domination of the world. Boziikkodstrun is set as the intermediary, who serves as the actual recipient of Bal's knowledge and creates these new abominations.

Problem is, Alduin loses, and is banished. Boziikkodstrun tries to flee Mundus, but is caught by Bal who still wants the information. Bal tortures the dragon, but he doesn't know Alduin's secret. So instead, Bal uses Boziikkodstrun to create the Daedric Titans.

Full circle.

Boziikkodstrun is a dragon captured by Bal following the Dragon War. He's mentioned in ESO.

[gaunt bear]

I was also planning on having the Dwemer scientist-mage there to “fine-tune” the process/steal it.

[plain cosmos]

Enter: source of Falmer experimentation

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/jerry-seinfeld-i-like-the-way-you-think-gif-14890068

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/freindo-kevin-theoffice-kevin-the-office-ate-too-much-gif-13442938

[gaunt bear]

Another thing I was having planned was that Ma’argot, King of Ill Omens, is not only half-joorre/half-demon, but also the Kohnarik of the Dragon Cult (as a reference to how Sauron was involved in the fall/sinking of Numenor).

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/ill-allow-it-gif-9328164

[gaunt bear]

Can you get the name reference?

[plain cosmos]

Probably the only Elden Ring reference I will ever get.

And only because I watched a friend fight him on their stream once.

[brisk perch]

So, Luminous Ink, a primordial substance used write new spells, is Nuka Cola Quantum.

[fathom jewel]

And to think we've been making our PCs drink that stuff for years....

[patent belfry]

TES 6: Uriel V Returns? :)

Mfw Todd’s Uriel V returning idea was a better plot than what the writers ended up coming up with.

[plain cosmos]

I've never understood why people are so fond of that idea. It sounded terrible.

[patent belfry]

Bruh Skyrim's main quest is so much worse

[plain cosmos]

Nah, that's 'Somehow Palpatine survived' levels of nonsense.

[plain cosmos]

I read the idea, and all I could picture was Mr. Magoo riding a monitor lizard thinking it was a dragon.

200 year old geriatric mistakes big lizard for dragon, claims to be true Emperor. Invades with a horde of old tin cans tied to string.

Yes, I know he'd be almost 400 in Skyrim, but this initial reaction comes from before Skyrim's timeline was known, and I was basing it off the timeline of Oblivion.

[plain cosmos]

And yes, I am old enough to think in Mr Magoo references

[sweet plume]

Honestly on one hand while the idea sounds cool on an invasion level scale, on the other hand it just feels… weird. Doesn’t really work on that idea alone.

[plain cosmos]

It comes with too many questions right off the bat that would require extensive explanations to justify.

Alduin coming to end the world is simple. Alduin's already established, him ending the world is already established. You don't have to do extra work just to make the premise land.

Doesn't mean you can't still screw it up of course. Skyrim had major pacing issues, a whole irrelevant tangent with the Blades, and failed to commit to any clear motivation for the antagonist.

But while the landing was kinda sloppy (if still actually qualifying as a landing) the basic premise doesn't instantly invoke convoluted questions.

The Uriel thing on the other hand immediately raises 'Wheres he been for 200+ years?', 'Why did the Dragonfires go out if he didn't die?', 'Where'd he get dragons in Akavir, when all their dragons were killed?', 'Why is he invading Skyrim instead of Cyrodiil or Morrowind which are more directly in his path?', 'How does a Cyrodiilic Ruler, leading an army of Akaviri Dragons, even remotely relate to Nordic history and tradition?'.

[sweet plume]

Also why’s he undead

[plain cosmos]

And those are just the answers that need to be dealt with BEFORE developing anything else. So you've got a lot of convoluted leg work just to get the idea off the ground, let alone flesh it out and make it interesting.

[plain cosmos]

That's the thing ... Undead was never brought up in what was related to us. But him being undead would solve the Dragonfire problem, though in answering that question you instantly end up with another.

It was ultimately just a Warlords of Draenor sort of idea. Luckily, Bethesda was smarter than Blizzard, and didn't follow through with it.

[glacial scarab]

Skyrims main quest has issues of not getting stuff done in time and the resulting cut content.

Civil war was meant to be apart of the Main Quest (Jagged Crown's NPC ids is probably the only remnant of it).
Blades and Greybeards feels like it was meant to have been an actual choice but it was cut out leaving people to side with Greybeards more (If I recall Paarth has voice lines for giving you the shout to call Odahviing).

[plain cosmos]

Yeah, there are a lot of problems, stemming from a lot of influences. But, as with all the storylines in Skyrim, the core premise is solid.

[patent belfry]

The core premise is evil dragon is evil because it is his nature to be evil, it’s a sloppy premise and Alduin needed more work

Uriel V coming back has more intrigue to it for me than evil dragon evil because evil nature of evil

Also idk where the writing team got the evil idea from Akatosh is a beacon to humans and elves alike and Alduin is just the aspect of Akatosh for the end of time, was never supposed to be some emo dragon that feeds on souls like a succubus

[robust lintel]

Oh you just caught him on a bad week, he's generally a jolly fellow.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/07/97/18/0797180ff8bcbb6cbb02157907a718e6.gif

[plain cosmos]

Alduin being the 'World Eater' has been around since Redguard. It wasn't exactly new.

Again, it wasn't exactly executed the best... But I find the Uriel idea to be just... Well let's just say Zach Snyder would love it.

I'm quite glad they didn't do it.

[sweet plume]

Zack Snyder really went downhill honestly post Dawn of the Dead Remake and Watchmen, exception being Justice League Cut by him.

[sweet plume]

I wanna also reiterate to people that just because we get something new that we never heard about, does not mean we should disregard it, each game is adding lore over time, and some of that lore via PGE1 among other things are subject to change in some ways.

[fathom jewel]

I get the impression that the primary 'divine-level' characters in ES5 - Alduin, his 'dad' Akatosh and Lorkhan (the dead guy who roams the aurbis like a vagabond and who still owns Sovngarde) are directly related to the Hunger of Sep, Satakal/Tall Papa and Sep the 'second serpent' in the Redguard mythos. But the Redguard mythos discusses the three in a more complete but significantly different way than what we heard in ES5.

[sweet plume]

Because it gets to the point where fans think adding lore is supposed to be the equivalent of retconning lore automatically.

[patent belfry]

Yes the aspect of Akatosh that represented the end of life and the end of time. Not an emo dragon who is bad because bad. Even Mehrunes Dagon and his cult in oblivion are more complex and Dagon is fixed as an agent of destruction and change.

[patent belfry]

The Uriel idea wasn't even executed on and you're already judging it as terrible. There have been many stories where a character comes back after disappearing like Gandalf and I'm sure you don't think LotR is bad

[proven moss]

Uriel V would have been presumably more of a personality and character that Alduin turned out to be

[patent belfry]

Oh definitely, and there could've been a chance to team up with him, restore the Septim dynasty and all that

[proven moss]

That's all really down to implementation though. Mankar Camoran seems like he would have been quite the interesting character, but all we really see of him is his final speech in Oblivion. People who have sought to rewrite Oblivion have often talked about making Mankar appear more frequently throughout the story, to help establish his character and build him up more as a villain

You could presumably do the same with Alduin, but being somewhat alien to the human experience would make that difficult. Uriel V would be easier to develop.

[patent belfry]

What we did see of him I found interesting, and the commentaries are slept on as there is quite a bit to go over in them. I do wish we got more of him tho and I can actually understand his motivations and his reasoning of the world of Tamriel becoming stagnant and how a great change was needed

In some ways he won because by killing off the entire Septim bloodline it sowed change throughout all of Tamriel

[sweet plume]

While Oblivion is my first game and favorite Elder Scrolls, it’s also the weakest when it came to really exploring Imperials as a people.

Dagon didn’t have much to work with besides having his Cult. If there is one thing I take issue with when it comes to fans of the series is they treat Dagon as if it’s a running joke that he always loses and forgets that his Sphere encompasses War in regards to Ambition, Revolution, Destruction. Winning The Oblivion Crisis would have been a bonus as it’s something in his nature and one that he implores many to do, but he still wins in the end, because the Crisis caused such great change and later led to a revolution with Summerset against the Empire.

[patent belfry]

Weakest? Skyrim just made the Nords Imperials, but dumber for some reason

[sweet plume]

Tbf that’s not hard to do when Skyrim is very Imperialized by that point

Much more so than they are by the time of the 2nd Era

[patent belfry]

In the West they had a great tie to the Imperials and they had no issue with it, the East in the old lore was untouched

[sweet plume]

… What about East and West? You lost me.

Are you talking about Western and Eastern Skyrim?

[patent belfry]

Yes

Eastern Skyrim was a lot of tradition and the people were very deep into Nordic ways and customs

Also the Nords proclaiming the Imperials don't care about Talos yet in Oblivion his mark is everywhere and there's a district, buildings, statues, and more things made just in his honor

I will never understand why they made the Nords worship Imperial Talos and not Nordic Ysmir

(Even though Tiber Septim was a Breton)

[sweet plume]

They got Imperialized, I should state that yes while it’s the Western Side that’s more Imperial Aligned, Skyrim was still affected by the Imperials, back then by the 2nd Era The Nords weren’t really colonized the way they are by Skyrim where that influence can still be felt over in the East.

[patent belfry]

Even by the time of Martin Septim there is a whole bunch of dialogue talking about how Skyrim is still very deep in Nordic tradition and customs and the Imperial parts are just little blips. It becoming more Imperialized in 200 years when the Empire is getting weaker and focusing more on strengthening Cyrodiil more than anywhere else makes no sense

[sweet plume]

Simple, that one quote by the priest in Oblivion was not taken into account when they made Skyrim.

Although there is the fact Skyrim is also 201 Years after Oblivion

[patent belfry]

There's multiple quotes in Oblivion and many lines of dialogue in Morrowind about it. Skyrim is simply just badly written

[sweet plume]

Sure, but again, Skyrim is also 200 Years past all those games

[patent belfry]

200 years of a waning and weakening Empire

[sweet plume]

Just because the Empire got weaker didn’t mean the influences to there cultures weren’t there

[patent belfry]

the Americas didn't gain more British influence as Britain started losing their grip on controlling them

What makes no sense irl makes no sense in fiction

[sweet plume]

Except in this case the Imperials were still in control despite being weakened.

[patent belfry]

Again they didn't increase their grip on Skyrim in those 200 years, there is dialogue in Skyrim itself to support this.

[sweet plume]

Why increase their grip when they already had it under their grip? Skyrim went to help the Empire in the Great War to begin with. And only by Skyrim with Ulfric, a Moron, decide to try and break free of Imperial Control over Skyrim.

[patent belfry]

Britain is still in control of Australia, yet the British influence has not increased, in fact it has decreased.

[sweet plume]

Australia is an Independent Self Governing Country, Britain doesn’t really have to get involved much with them as long as they keep doing what they are doing.

[patent belfry]

So is Skyrim

[sweet plume]

Yeah but Australia is also over the Ocean by comparison while Skyrim is Literally the next Province North

It wouldn’t be that hard for Imperial Influences to seep in

[rustic spire]

Britain are even loosing there own influence lol... They're having a debate if a small area of England should have Sharia law as it's mainly Muslim & they want the law imposed... They even have Fake Police but Religous police driving around the streets

[sweet plume]

Tbf I don’t know much about the current state of the world.

Since current events don’t often interest me vs events of the past at times

[patent belfry]

Not hard for British influence to seep into Australia further, just takes one phone call

Skyrim's lore makes no sense half the time, it's the weakest in the series in terms of lore

[sweet plume]

As others have pointed out, "Ysmir, Dragon of the North" is a title that other people have received, including a mysterious Ysmur the Forefather, Talos himself, the very LDB after The Horn of Jurgen Windcaller, and most famously King Wulfharth.

That’s why they say Talos specifically.

So no, using Ysmir wouldn’t have made sense regarding the fact other people have been called Ysmir

Add this to the fact that there are people worshipping Kyne, which is Kynareth by the Imperials and that tells you that they still are worshipping there own specific version of those Gods.

[sweet plume]

Honestly I’m waiting for ESO to add Winterhold, only because I want to see what the City was like before its collapse and the College’s relationship with the general People of the City.

Speaking of Redguard they did bring back the Dragon from that game during the Season of the Dragon DLC in Elsweyr for TESO

Kinda sad seeing him as an Ally before Cyrus kills him later on in the 2nd Era

[left shoal]

Ah yeah I heard about that. Naafalilargus. It's a shame we don't see more of him, and I don't really think much of ESO. Then again, we're probably not getting Second Era in a mainline game.

[sweet plume]

ESO does tend to connect to the wider Elder Scrolls Lore and expands on a lot of stuff. Vvardenfell DLC even had plenty of characters and references to TES3, as well as foreshadowing future events regarding it. It’s always nice seeing characters like Vampires or the Tribunal, Divayth Fyr among others at a different point in time.

The Druids of Galen mentioned as far back as Arena even got a DLC, which is why I grew to love ESO as it really wanted to show that even the first game is still important to the overall world, even if a lot of it’s stuff is wildly different compared to the series now.

[left shoal]

Suppose. Little bits like that taken from the earlier games and revamped are a great idea, but I guess I would prefer to see how Bethesda alone does it in the main games.

That being said, Skyrim did NOT do Labyrinthian justice.

[sweet plume]

ESO also with it’s prequel setting did some cool things, like showing the Temple of Meridia that was near Solitude in Skyrim, however while in TESV it’s long since abandoned, in ESO it has followers and is being attacked when you get to it, their prayers to Meridia fall on deaf ears and that tells of why the Temple is long abandoned by the time of TESV

The prequel setting allows for Nostalgia while exploring the past of locations you’ve been to in Mainline Games and how things are different then compared to now.

[left shoal]

Yeah. Also allows for a buttload of retcons and disconnections too. Though I can't speak for the expansion packs since I barely touched ESO after Morrowind.

[sweet plume]

Depends on what exactly is a Retcon to people. If it was never definitely proven it’s not a retcon perse.

We also have to remember what we read is also not always the truth, depending on the writer, the believability of it all, among other things. Which is part of TES DNA

[left shoal]

Too bad it often uses unreliable narrator as a crutch

[sweet plume]

I say it depends, because it’s also used as a proof of concept idea when your building up the lore

PGE1 and it’s later editions were Imperial Propaganda, while not all of it can necessarily be a lie, some of what you read strikes you as just not sounding right at times

Also Out of Game Sources were also used as an inspiration at times to also add to lore.

The Sword Technique that Sunk Yokuda was something only told in a Cyrus vs Vivec Out of Game Story, but later on the idea of that Technique sinking the continent of Yokuda became part of official canon.

[plain cosmos]

No, i am judging the idea as inferior. Given the actual execution of ideas over the last 20 years, we can assume that the execution would be even worse than the idea.

I mean, they took a solid if rather tired idea (Big evil dragon) and managed to stumble with it. What do you think would have happened with an idea that required more work just to be viable, let alone good.

[plain cosmos]

And when we're given Word of God stuff, it's often... Even more problematic.

Elf ages for instance.

Though I think this is something if a symptom of using unreliable narrator as a crutch as well. Lacking even an internal 'reality' to use as a basis for in-universe people to interpret leads to decisions and claims that ultimately make little to no sense.

[patent belfry]

So even something like Gandalf reappearing seemingly out of nowhere is an inferior concept to you than Alduin being evil because he is evil by nature because evil

[plain cosmos]

Tolkien did the work to make that fit. Had he not, then yes. It would have been dumb.

I'm saying that Bethesda has not shown the ability to do the work to make it fit.

They couldn't even settle on a motivation FOR that evil dragon.

[plain cosmos]

That's not to say that Tolkien doesn't also have problems. The doubt of characters like Gandalf is undermined by Eru's nature, in the same way the idea of doubt and free will are undermines by the supposed omniscience and omnipotence of the Abrahamic gods. So Gandalf should never have doubted the odds of victory, and should have been utterly convinced of Eru's plan.

This issue plays out more in the Silmarilion though. The Valar never should have displayed such uncertainty, especially AFTER Eru declared that their every action was already planned.

[glacial scarab]

Tzeentch at it again

[plain cosmos]

Hey, at least Tolkien did better than SOME contemporary writers.

I'm not naming names coughLewiscough

[bronze ether]

Hey I have some lore

Maby a old man made up this story line and was on crack

[plain cosmos]

Legends? Well, it was Skooma, and yes.

[glacial scarab]

Sounds like Oblivion to me.

[plain cosmos]

Everything post-Daggerfall has just been the fever dream of the Agent as he bleeds out in the Mantellan Crux

[balmy salmon]

At least he wasn't killed by a Dragonborn.

It's not impossible for him to have been revived by Alduin offscreen.

[glacial scarab]

If he even knows where the body is. The Dragons he revives are in places that can be seen from the air.

Gotta remember he doesn't do anything for the Dragon at Dragonsreach and I doubt his Skeleton is intact if it's still even on Stros M'kai.

[balmy salmon]

It's possible his skeleton was disassembled, but so far we've only seen one example of that.

Additionally, it might be worth noting that Alduin knew the exact identity of the dragon buried at Kynesgrove despite it having been killed after Alduin's banishment. I wouldn't be surprised if he could sense their dormant souls.

It's possible that Mirmulnir told him, but by extension, he might have also told Alduin the location of every fallen dragon in Tamriel.

[balmy salmon]

I guess the real question is whether he revived any dragons outside of Skyrim.

[plain cosmos]

I doubt he would have had time. Enough to focus on IN Skyrim it's self.

[glacial scarab]

The one at Kynesgrove is also yet another Dragon mound. All the Dragons he raises are from those ancient mounds.

[balmy salmon]

They're ancient, but according to the Atlas of Dragons, its occupant was killed during the First Era, while from what I've seen the Dragon War is generally assumed to have taken place in the late Merethic Era, and the Atlas makes note of those who died during the Dragon War.

[plain cosmos]

Indeed. Which raises some questions about the Dragon Mounds.

They don't seem to be Dragon Cult burials. They're post-war Nord burials. Burying the problem rather than formal ritual burials

Which actually makes some sense. Why would the Dragon Cult ever need to bury dead dragons? If they were killed by another dragon, they'd be absorbed. If they were killed by something else, Alduin would simply bring them back

That has ritual implications about being buried in the ground for Nordic culture.

[glacial scarab]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Dragon_War

The war was long and bloody. The dragon priests were overthrown and dragons were slaughtered in large numbers. The surviving dragons scattered, choosing to live in remote places away from men. The dragon cult itself adapted and survived. They built the dragon mounds, entombing the remains of dragons that fell in the war. They believed that one day the dragons would rise again and reward the faithful.

I feel Mirmulnir probably told Alduin about the Mounds and started doing fly by resurrections

[plain cosmos]

The problem with that is, it implies that the Dragon Cult was still quite active across Skyrim even into the 1st era. Afterall, they managed to bury a dragon in one of the most sacred places in the country well after their institutional collapse, and even after their ultimate destruction at Forelhost.

Supposedly, Sahloknir was slain by Jorg Helmbolg. Jorg, who helped found the First Empire around 1e240... A century after Harald had wiped out the Dragon Cult.

[fathom jewel]

It was the elve's fault!

https://tenor.com/view/viking-gif-18137671

[raw grail]

We also know they can detect dragon souls... But that seems a far distance imo

[raw grail]

We know Dragons can detect dragon souls. Dragon skeletons' souls don't leave them unless a dragon absorbs it. Imo that's probably how he found the various dead dragons throughout Skyrim - and more speculatively, perhaps why he went to Helgen?

[raw grail]

First message was in response to this but broke

[patent belfry]

The Nords saying they haven’t seen a dragon for a millennia insinuates Imperial dragon riders never bothered to fly north

[fathom jewel]

Perhaps they deliberately avoided flying into or over Skyrim in order to not stir up local anxieties regarding the flying wirms?

https://tenor.com/view/cymru-wales-gif-24638896

[left shoal]

Skyrim is a no-fly zone by imperial law
What did Tiber Septim mean by this?

[fathom jewel]

LOL! Didn't know the Imperial Aviation Administration had created such a regulation. I'm assuming it would also apply to any Altmer, Sload or resurrected Dwemer airships.

[dark palm]

Playing elder kings two currently roleplaying as a many paths khajiit who was trying to fight against religious persecution, she was met by vaermina and I ended up making a modification of the many paths religion where the followers try to realize the glorious dreams they receive through Vaermina

Is this against any lore?

[raw grail]

I could also just imagine that they're a fairly specialized elite that not many people really know about

They're only mentioned in like one game in the entire series

I'm sure other mentions of them do exist, "realistically," but I also imagine the average Nord doesn't have his hands on them

[fathom jewel]

Look it up on uesp.net. That's a widely respected source.

[fathom jewel]

But if they flew over skyrim, somebody was bound to eventually notice. They'd be seen. Or their contrails. Or maybe their CHEMtrails....

https://tenor.com/view/you-see-it-is-part-plan-explain-gif-20448886

[dark palm]

Yeah ik, it kinda just says about nightmares and stuff and it’s kinda a bummer, reminding me why this mod is hard for me to play long term because I feel like I always break lore

And how she is seen as evil by many-paths khajiit

[fathom jewel]

Well it's still a roleplay, so you can do whatever you feel like doing. It's your story. Enjoy it, man. Doesn't matter if it potentially contradicts lore, which changes all the time anyway. 😊

[raw grail]

That doesn't mean your average Nord would be aware of it. Just because the particular Nords we talk to aren't knowledgeable on elite Imperial military forces doesn't mean no one is aware they exist

[raw grail]

Do keep in mind: it is a wiki, and has all of the weaknesses and strengths of one. If you want accuracy, you're best off using the articles as a way to find sources, rather than taking them at face value

[dark palm]

True lol, my idea is that Vaermina is giving the members of the religion there unadultered best dream to work towards so they never second guess themselves

[fathom jewel]

It sounds cool, man. 😊

[raw grail]

Nah dude, cultist's gonna cultist

This sounds dope imo

Maaaaan that's sad

I wish I at least had Ctrl+z on mobile so that I didn't lose an entire paragraph to a swear word or two

As I was trying to say:
TES plays with wacky perspectives a lot. Mankar is blatantly heretical and wrong about many topics, but if you look at the world through a certain lens, you can see how he arrived at some of his conclusions. Vaermina provides an interesting lens, as well. To the Khajiit, and in general, she has a heavy interplay with fear

Varmiina. Queen of Nightmares. The Lost Daughter. This spirit was not of any litter, but was born from Fadomai's fear of losing her children. Azurah killed this dark spirit in the Underworld, and now Varmiina only haunts Khajiit when they dream. Know she will test you and make you want to turn from the Path in fear, but she cannot truly harm the ja-Kha'jay in dreams.
- The Dark Spirits
I have seen everything. After you've seen through Vaermina's eyes, nothing can frighten you.
- Aviera Nirol
And her followers sometimes associate her with visions
Shrine of Vaermina
"Here we worship Vaermina, praying for her to grant us true visions. What is your business here?"
- Aymar Douar
Which could provide a very interesting perspective for your Khajiit

Leaning into the "showing me fearful visions of terrible things in order to harden me for the challenges to come" side of things is what I'm thinking. Even if you don't go this specific route, I think there's a lot of ways to make this interesting while staying true to perspectives that could occur in TES

Interesting sources from Vaermina cultists in case you want to explore the topic more:
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:In_Dreams_We_Awaken
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dreamers_Our_Time_Has_Come
And UESP's page on Vaermina has a lot of really good books and sources at the bottom, including all of the ones I've mentioned above

[dark palm]

Hmmm ok thank you

[proven moss]

The Googler of Men
Do you drive men googledebunkers?

|| obscure miniminuteman reference||

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/my-man-my-man-hd-my-man4k-gif-23532578

That man is doing what I wish I had done with my degree. Alas, I listened to my parents about how 'this YouTube thing will never catch on'.

[fathom jewel]

"You youngsters nowadays with all your crazy fads and your hoola hoops and your Engelbert Humperdink and your Vacuum tubes...back in my day, we were happy we had mechanical relays in our computers!"

https://tenor.com/view/viralhog-grandpa-grandpa-kiki-dance-kiki-dance-dance-party-gif-12380914

[raw grail]

Oh I can't swear at the Googledebunkers. I'm sorry

[raw grail]

||Miniminuteman is great||

[patent belfry]

Or it could be another case of Skyrim being Skyrim and forgetting TES lore again

[raw grail]

Well, yeah, but that doesn't really change what I'm saying

We only get a small slice of the world in any of the games. We're not going to hear every single perspective talked about, or every single piece of information reiterated. As far as "things that we'd expect to be mentioned by your average person," this doesn't seem that high on the list to me

[patent belfry]

When the Blades and the Graybeards are saying the dragons have been “gone” for a thousand years then I know I can’t make excuses for the writing.

[raw grail]

I don't recall either of them saying that

I can't seem to find the quotes on UESP but I could be missing them, or UESP may be missing dialogue

Even if they did say that tho, saying dragons are gone in a general sense is completely accurate

So I'd be curious as to the particular dialogue

[balmy salmon]

I figure they merely mean that they're gone as a whole- there's still a few known survivors out there.

[raw grail]

I fully believe that Bethesda forgot, to be clear. I don't think this was like, deliberately left out, or even on the table for inclusion. What I'm really trying to say is that the lack of people saying this to us does not mean that no one knows about it. That's why I'm trying to emphasize that we only see a slice

[fathom jewel]

The leader of the Ka Po Tun is allegedly a dragon - the largest in existence, if I remember right. Also, I think there's supposed to be a dragon in Dragonstar, separating the western and eastern halves of the town.

[raw grail]

[raw grail]

Not to mention Naafalilargus or whatever

Who Skyrim does reference, iirc?

Maybe not. I might be mixing up ESO and Skyrim sources. I'd have to check

Although Odahviing feels low-key referential in and of himself

A red dragon who helps mankind (although with different form of assistance and different reasons)

[balmy salmon]

Skyrim's own lore makes it evident that even before Alduin returned, there were still a few surviving dragons.

[raw grail]

Aye

[raw grail]

Ah

The reference got cut. But still. Point stands that Nahfahlaar defies the "millenia" claim and was a consideration for Skyrim

There Be Dragons also mentions Reman-era and later dragons, and the idea of Tiber absorbing the essences of "all the dragons"

There is some confusion over when the last dragon was killed. It seems the last few vanished all at once. Some tales speak of a dragon king who devoured all of them rather than let mankind kill them. One of the more far-fetched stories has Tiber Septim absorbing their essences when he ascended to godhood. Although the exact cause is unknown, they are all gone. No dragon has been seen for centuries. There are a few known examples of dragon bones fused with the stone and rocks of cliffs and caves. Just enough proof to make the stories undeniable.

[patent belfry]

Sounds like you’re saying there’s a hope all the lore they broke in Skyrim can be salvaged in TES 6 and we can shrug the Nords and Skyrim’s population off as extremely ignorant

[raw grail]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:There_Be_Dragons

[raw grail]

That's not at all what I'm saying

I don't know where you got that from what I'm saying. I would recommend reading it again

Or I could clarify again if you wish, I just don't want to repeat myself at you if it was just a misreading

[balmy salmon]

There is a journal mentioning a dragon rider in Battlespire (which later reappears in Morrowind), but that particular dragon technically wasn't in Tamriel.

[raw grail]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/General:Gary_Noonan's_Posts

Ctrl+f dragoon

He's one of an order of dragon riders

[plain cosmos]

I mean, Nords have practically turned Stupidity into the state religion. It's no wonder they don't remember historical organisations like the Dragonriders.

[raw grail]

I still think "no one we meet knows about it therefore no one knows about it" is not logically sound

[raw grail]

Oh! I forgot about it. Do you have quotes from the Blades or Greybeards about how dragons were last seen millenia ago? I still couldn't find them

If anyone else could provide them that'd be cool too

[plain cosmos]

Jacob's Teapot and all. The fact that we are given ample opportunities to encounter people who would know about these things, and no one does, would suggest that the people of Skyrim really are that poorly informed about things.

[raw grail]

If they don't know, depending on the dialogue, I think there's more of an argument to be made since even supposed experts are contradicting their existence, assuming they're not speaking generally

[plain cosmos]

Reinforced by the fact that they DONT EVEN SEEM TO REMEMBER THE PACT OF CHIEFTAINS!

Like, it's mindblowing just how ignorant the Nords are in Skyrim, even if their own history and traditions.

[balmy salmon]

It does sound like a lot of what Noonan said about dragons was retconned out.

Or, in the very least, surviving dragons were far rarer than his words suggested.

[plain cosmos]

We know of several. And at least 2 who have worked for the Empire.

So rare is probably relative.

[raw grail]

Relative to his words in this case

Which I agree do imply more than Skyrim implies

Skyrim massively overhauled the history of dragons in a lot of ways, but the idea of Tiber having some kind of dragon thing going on remained

[plain cosmos]

It's also possible that, given Skyrim's history and the nature of Dragons, they actively avoided that place afterwards. Making them feel far more rare to the Nords than they actually were.

[balmy salmon]

And for what it's worth, one dragon did manage to survive in Vvardenfell.

[plain cosmos]

Afterall, ALL dragons would be refugees from the Dragon War.

[raw grail]

Although tbf Noonan does also kind of account for this, saying they hid and such

[plain cosmos]

Overall, I don't think it's a pure retcon. It can all still fit, it's just a bit of a messier fit.

[raw grail]

Skyrim does put some Tiber stuff into an interesting context

A friend of mine has pointed out similarities between the tale behind the Boots of Apostle and everything going on with Clear Skies, theorizing that Tiber met Paarthurnax (besides just obviously having gone to High Hrothgar)

Boots of the Apostle
"When Talos Stormcrown was a young man in Skyrim, he went into the mountains to learn the secrets of the Greybeards. He learned the secrets of the high peak winds -- the roar of the winter blast, and the warm silk of the summer updrafts. When he descended from the mountains, he came riding the clouds, striding through the air in great boots he claimed were gifts of the Greybeards for his cunning craft and riddling. After Septim yielded his crown, the boots disappeared, and have been lost for many years."

Clear Skies:
Lok - Sky
Vah - Spring
Koor - Summer

• Overcoming the blizzard on the path

Skyrim also suggests Tiber and ourselves are the only two mortals to be called by the Greybeards

Emblem IX

For years all silent, the Greybeards spoke one name

Tiber Septim, stripling then, was summoned to Hrothgar

They blessed and named him Dohvakiin

[fathom jewel]

"Are you telling me that rocks AREN'T edible???"

https://tenor.com/view/floki-viking-vikings-serie-gif-20740526

[gaunt bear]

Rocks are edible, but they don’t ‘come out’ well with the body.

[proven moss]

Nice find by your friend.
The callback to older lore that I particularly like (perhaps a coincidence) is the account of the Battle of Cryngaine Fields where Skakmat summons a thick fog in an attempt to halt the battle. I can only think of the soul-trapping fog that Alduin lays over Sovngarde.
Ven Mul Riik
Wind Strong Gale

[raw grail]

she's got some great finds! She mentions sometimes how people overstate the outdated-ness of older content. Not that it's entirely correct now, but it's referenced and accurate and useful for context far more than it sometimes is made out to be

That's awesome tho! I hadn't really paid that much attention to Skakmat but 😮

If it is coincidence it's one hell of one. I wish it were easier to tell with stuff like this

[patent belfry]

Are Vivec and Dagoth Ur really the biggest narcissists in Morrowind? I'd say it goes to Divayth

[celest garden]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suMxEZ7LwgQ

[lyric bronze]

In the Skyrim civil war, which side would it make sense for a Redguard from a crown family to support?

[proven moss]

Well the Crowns don't like fraternitizing with easterners as a general rule, so I'd say the most likely course of action would be to support neither side.
If they had to choose, I could see it going either way really. The Empire doesn't rule Hammerfell anymore, so the Crowns as a faction wouldn't necessarily have any beef with them, outside of past grudges.

They might support the Empire in this case since the Empire is their buffer state with the Aldmeri Dominion. Best work to keep it propped up in case the Dominion attacks again.
OR, they might see a Stormcloak Skyrim as a move towards more provinces becoming independent, which could be beneficial for Hammerfell (not to be surrounded by the Empire)

That doesn't really take the Dominion threat into consideration though, should the Empire collapse.

Ulfric has vowed to take on the elves, but as far as I remember Hammerfell was exhausted from war and had still fairly recently made peace

[lyric bronze]

The empire may be the best bet for getting back at the dominion from a pragmatic perspective due to their size and resources

Then again ulfric would be more pro active about it

[fathom jewel]

What is the priority of the Crowns? The independence and prosperity of the Redguard as a people. The primary enemy for HF now is the Dominion. Anyone who is an enemy of the Dominion serves the Crown interest indirectly with regards to presenting burdens to Dominion military resources.

Picking sides in the Skyrim Civil War is premature. It would be best for the Crowns to make every effort to maintain amicable relationships with both sides, both before and after the war's conclusion. By not supporting either side, the Crowns open the door for realpolitik with whoever wins.

Additional thoughts:

Say there is only one victor in the War. The winner accuses the Redguard of acting like an enemy by not providing support. The Crown answer: "Your opponent pressed us mightily to help them, but we refused. That should count for quite a bit, don't you think? Furthermore, our resources have been tied up squaring off against the Dominion, and as you might recall, we have been alone in this for quite some time. Now that the issue is settled between you and your vanquished foe, let's be practical and look to the future. Your enemy is also MINE. Our interests coincide. Let's act in accordance with this."

Now say that 'both sides' win and are each independent of each other. They BOTH angrily confront the Redguard for their lack of support. The Crown answer to each in privacy: "We were very distressed to see this internecine conflict erupt with the looming threat of the Dominion shadowing all. This left US to confront the Dominion all on our own. To be candid, you owe us for the protection we provided by dedicating all of our resources to tieing up the Dominion military and forcing them into a defensive posture. We'd like to see you now participate in this - after all, the Dominion is our common foe. Let us pool our interests on this matter and cooperate to mutual benefit."

That, at least, would be my council to the Crown leadership.

[lyric bronze]

Staying out of the war does seem to provide higher reward for fewer risk

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/yup-butt-head-mike-judge-mike-judge's-beavis-and-butt-head-s2-e11-gif-8103816649828206245

[raw grail]

I think this becomes less attractive to a Crown LDB who has read Ulfric's dossier, declaring that the continued uncertainty of the war is the optimal solution, and the fact they're willing to step in to keep it going in such a fashion

As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. [...] A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.

I don't know which side a Crown would choose when confronted with that dilemma, I could imagine them swinging either way. This whole issue, ofc, can be avoided by just not reading Ulfric's dossier... A friend of mine has their character burn the dossiers when she found them, more worried about destroying information than obtaining it

(unless that scene has changed now, they've rewritten parts)

[fathom jewel]

If the Crown intelligence service was to obtain a copy of the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric, I suspect the Crowns would approach both sides in the conflict (Empire and Stormcloak) and urge them to resolve their differences, showing the dossier as evidence that continuing the struggle was only playing into the enemies hands. This would be more advantageous than choosing a side. If they choose a side, then one party will likely get crushed and the other will get weakened in the attempt - not an ideal outcome if your goal is to have capable confederates to help deal with the Dominion threat. On the other hand, if you could get both sides to stop fighting NOW, then both will have greater strength to position against the Dominion.

This brings to bear the possible diplomatic posture of the Crowns with ALL the various tribes and peoples of Nirn. Some thoughts:

1. While trying to get the Stormcloaks and Empire to come to terms, the Crowns should do the same with the Dunmer and Argonians. I think we can count on the Argonians to NOT side with the Dominion and simply look after themselves, should they get a reasonably acceptable deal with the Dunmer, and the Dunmer themselves, once free of any real concern regarding further Argonian incursions, could help presented a new front against the Dominion.

2. The Crowns should reach out to both the Sload and Maormer. They're both mortal enemies of the Altmer. Perhaps an agreement to supply timber from the forests of northeastern HF and HR to help the Maormer rebuild their navy, and a very discretely negotiated agreement with the Sload that helps with some of their necromantic interests (like sending them ships filled with the worst criminals in HR and HF periodically) would serve to bring both of them 'into the fold' against the Dominion.

3. Crown Intelligence will need to find a way to plant agents undercover in Valenwood and Elsweyr simply to monitor developments. Some of the information can be collected openly by Redguard trade vessels visiting provincial ports.

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/fcdk-boma-fernand-nandje-gluren-gif-24967391

[patent belfry]

Funny how a Breton achieved what Vivec never could

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/what-do-you-mean-desmond-johnson-rdcworld1-what-are-you-saying-huh-gif-6278946709606322977

[patent belfry]

[sweet plume]

I love RDCWorld

[lyric bronze]

Actually, Tiber septim was an orc :))

[pastel sorrel]

more like
dorc

gottem

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-square-pants-spongebob-cool-finger-guns-you-got-it-gif-3561703

[fathom jewel]

Rather than have yet another conquering hero of eternal legend show up to save the day for the Empire (Talos Two, in effect), what Cyrodiil really needs is an emperor with the skills of a Talleyrand.

[proven moss]

What, like Louis XI?

[patent belfry]

Bro they copied the same Fallout story twice and Starfield is the Dragonborn again

Don’t give them another idea to copy XD

[sweet plume]

Tbh I always found Family to be a major part of Fallout since the first game. Whether by Blood or not. And yeah Starborn sounds similar to Dragonborn with the word Born but that’s the least of my issues when it comes to Starfield, a game that I enjoy but wish it had done so much more to worldbuild for a new IP.

[fathom jewel]

Think about it - Talleyrand was one of the greatest statesman and diplomat of all time. He could play both a strong hand and a weak hand to maximum advantage. Best of all, he was a Pai Mei-level master at playing rivals and opponents off on each other to protect or improve his own position. That's what the 'Empire' needs now - somebody who can win by other than purely military means and artfully manipulate all the factions and agendas at play in Tamriel.

[patent belfry]

They needed to hire one of the old guys who were fantastic worldbuilders

[sweet plume]

With a bunch of the old guard gone after Starfield that essentially opens the door for new blood, but the biggest issue is just how they have one Head Writer to begin with when it comes to Emil

[patent belfry]

Also yeah but 3 and 4 are way too similar, I will always dislike how they decided to not make 4 an rpg instead you’re playing Bethesda’s character, whether it’s a veteran or a lawyer lol

[patent belfry]

Bro the old writers left after Oblivion wdym

[sweet plume]

Oblivion’s Worldbuilding for Imperials was really shallow so I don’t really count that

[patent belfry]

I don’t think it was shallow, I think they were just going for a very high fantasy idea

Vibrant colors and music kinda reflect they were going for the whimsical vibe

[sweet plume]

Morrowind is more High Fantasy in comparison tbh, and Skyrim even less so, they were more grounded on a Fantasy level.

[patent belfry]

I also love the vibrancy of Oblivion

That was before the dark times of piss filters, gray filters, and brown filters to make everything feel dead

Even Skyrim wasn’t immune to that late 00s and early 2010s style, luckily there are mods to remove the gray filter

[sweet plume]

Like I just don’t like Oblivion’s Worldbuilding, it felt rather shallow as a whole compared to a game before it that did it better. Color alone doesn’t help if your not expanding on the Culture of the people itself in a significant way.

[patent belfry]

I still like it and didn’t find it shallow

And the quest design is yet to be beaten

Love the Heist so fun

[sweet plume]

Your welcome to feel that way, but honestly I feel TES Hasn’t had good worldbuilding again until ESO, where even there they started adding onto Skyrim in terms of the fact that Nords moved away from Magic and shunned it, showing the old Ways of worship are dying and that the Clevermen and Cleverwomen, the Magic Users who were advisors to Jarls and Kings in the Past are also dying out. Nords are still in need of more development but they showed me a Skyrim that is changing into the Skyrim of the Future.

That does add onto Nords becoming rather distrustful of Magic

[patent belfry]

Random thought but if the Bethesda site doesn’t recognize your email as a registered member it should have a message pop up sayin “Who, are you?” With a little Hadvar next to it

[patent belfry]

I too love how ESO tries hard to retcon anything it can /s

[sweet plume]

… TES since the very first game has done that

[patent belfry]

I’ll say Skyrim does it as hard as ESO does

[sweet plume]

Tbc once more, there is also a difference between Lore that was outright confirmed and lore that was not, which is ultimately still what shapes the series lore to this day. If something was intentionally changed, then yes it was changed, but ultimately that is the thing you will get with a Long running franchise.

[patent belfry]

Yeah it’s a tie between ESO and Skyrim

[sweet plume]

Compare Arena to the series today and it’s vastly different, each game was changing in major ways, Imperials didn’t even exist as a race until Morrowind.

Even the Whole Dark Elf Religion and whatever was not exactly 1 to 1 when we went from Daggerfall to Morrowind

[patent belfry]

Yeah

I’m still keeping my tie tho

[sweet plume]

Point is this series lore regarding races and provinces only ever really cements once we actually get to it, and then there is the fact the Unreliable Narrator is used as a proof of concept of what they may or may not add.

[patent belfry]

[sweet plume]

Which yes ESO devs and loremasters have read through them when making the provinces and cultures, which I found to be a good thing.

[patent belfry]

“How can we simplify this to make it more digestible?”

[sweet plume]

I’m confused on what your trying to imply.

[balmy salmon]

That reminds me of how supposedly during some point in TES V's development, one of the ideas for a plot was Uriel V- the greatest general of the Septim Dynasty other than Tiber Septim himself- returning from Akavir with dragons at his command. And he'd have been the antagonist.

[fathom jewel]

Really? Imaginative, but weird. Glad they didn't go with it.

[patent belfry]

Wishing they went with a bad because bad antagonist for Morrowind

[left shoal]

tes hasn't had good worldbuilding again until eso

[sweet plume]

It’s the truth really, Morrowind was the last time they actually tried to inject worldbuilding with the Dark Elves.

[patent belfry]

Your opinion equals the truth? Yikes

[sweet plume]

Do you not see your own as your own truth?

[patent belfry]

I certainly don't go telling people it is "the truth"

[sweet plume]

Your free to disagree

But I just don’t see what makes Oblivion so great honestly, I used to look at it in a positive light when I originally beat it, my opinion on it just changed as time went on.

[fathom jewel]

Well, they sorta did - Alduin was not a jovial fellow, and Miraak followed after him. They didn't do much development on Alduin's story, though, which made him much less effective as an antagonist in contrast with someone like big daddy Dagoth Ur. For instance - if Alduin's return was supposed to bring about the end of the world, why was he flying around resurrecting dragons?

[patent belfry]

Because the writers forgot that Alduin was supposed to be the aspect of Akatosh that represents the end of time and not an emo dragon that listens to MCR and does slam poetry

[sweet plume]

Aspect of Akatosh for one, aka the Father of Dragons, resurrecting the Dragons I believe is meant to be a sign of the end of days.

[sweet plume]

… MCR and Slam Poetry?

[plain cosmos]

Yeah, Skyrim's failure of execution there was mismatching the mythos and not laying out clear motivations for Alduin as an antagonist.

Is he here to end the world, or take it over? No one knows, and different sources give conflicting accounts. And Alduin himself never once indicates his own goals.

The issue was less the syncretism of the Nordic Alduin and the Cyrodiilic Akatosh. God-beleifs being mistranslated, misattributed, and even combined are entirely normal.

Thoth, Hermes and probably an mystic in antiquity becoming Hermes Trismegistus through the merger of religious and literary traditions for instance.

So a Demigod Dragon and eldest son of Akatosh, who hadn't been seen for 4000 years, slowly being merged into the Nordic characterisation of Akatosh, and then associated directly with the Cyrodiilic characterisation of Akatosh, isn't it's self a problematic change.

The bigger problem was the poor characterisation. Alduin himself isn't really much of an actual Character, more a speed bump with a handful of voice lines.

The lack of establishment, engagement and development, combined with confused 3rd party explanations for his motivations, leaves him being a lackluster antagonist.

[glacial scarab]

Honestly the undead Dragon Cult should've been a character of the main quest to at least give information on wth Alduin is up to. Instead of just everyone relying on ancient information on what he might do.

[plain cosmos]

There is a lot I would do to rewrite it... But it's a little late for that.

Best we can do is express the formulaic failings and hope the next one is better

[fathom jewel]

There is a way BGS could 'make up' for their missed opportunities. In HF, the immediate region around Dragonstar could perhaps have a heavily Nordic theme. An element you could place there is, perhaps, a nordic tomb. Within are several traps and/or puzzles whose solutions illustrate the Nordic pantheon in some real detail. All the draughr in the tomb, as well as the mighty dragon priest at the end, actually talk, and you can interact with several of them (especially the dragon priest.) After the dragon priest, there is an exit to the rear of the tomb - an exit facing east. You proceed thru the exit and at the end, you encounter a Word Wall and a very big dragon. You can't fight the dragon, but you can interact with it. After an interesting conversation, he gives you a present - he makes it possible for you to interact with the word wall, where you learn one word of a shout that gives you a temporary benign power - something like seeing in the dark for 30 seconds, or being able to see thru a wall for a short time, or something else equally passive (yet useful.) Afterwards, you continue along a path which ends at an extremely high cliff at your feet. If you try to proceed forward, you will fall to your death. If you follow the trail to the right, it takes you south and then west, back into HF proper. But from this cliff, you can see far into Skyrim.

[topaz dome]

Personally I'd prefer that shouts, dragons and word walls do not reappear in TES VI.

[brisk perch]

Dragons, maybe, but shouts and word walls less likely unless we go back to Skyrim for TES VI. Dragons were pretty much everywhere on Tamriel other than Resdayn.

[fathom jewel]

OK then - drop the word wall and the one word shout. Replace it with something that's being guarded in the tomb that is related to Sword Singing, with the dragon priest offering a back story and the dragon giving a warning of some sort. This gives skyrim fans a dose of the previous title which might satisfy their cravings for a return to the province (enough so that BGS is hopefully not compelled to develop a specific DLC.) It also offers an opportunity to fill in lore gaps in ES5 (which could be interesting.)

[balmy salmon]

I would like to see maybe one dragon in the next game, as an optional boss fight and a reminder of the long term change that Alduin has brought to Tamriel.

[robust lintel]

Time itself might be affected as a consequence of stopping Alduin and it's purpose (even more screwed up than time already was). It might start bleeding into itself from other periods of time. Previous Elder Scrolls that never came to be in the current world might start popping up and occurring. Repeating time loops. Could be instances where you run into another version of yourself and NPCs experiencing the same. Who knows?

[proven moss]

I, for one, want to fight giant scorpions that ambush you from beneath the sand

Schoolbus-sized scorpions

[robust lintel]

Maybe you can ride them

[proven moss]

🚎🦂

[robust lintel]

I hate the giant worms that suddenly open up a circular hole of sand, drawing you down into their jaws. Like a whirlpool, but worse

[proven moss]

With sea scorpions in the ocean just so you cant escape

[robust lintel]

Only scorpion I'm happy to run into would be a driveable scorpion tank on fallout

[proven moss]

Like a bobbit worm crossed with an antlion?

Like the Sarlac Pit

[robust lintel]

Would be useful for bandit sacrifices. Just a quick punt over the plank

Could use a lil buddy like that. Some tiny creature companion with a bottomless stomach. So it can just eat all my hoarding loot and vomit it back up when we get home.

But I'd take the scorpions over giant rock golems suddenly ripping their camouflaged bodies out from mountains of high rock. Liable to get crushed with them

[fathom jewel]

I would like to see more than one dragon - BUT: I don't want to fight them. I'm happy to talk to one of them as part of a major quest, and I'd like that conversation to be memorable. The rest should just be 'scenery' - maybe one or two tend to perch on top of some inaccessible peak and occasionally glide around it. That sorta thing. Overall, there should be VERY few (less than half a dozen) and they should be awe-inspiring, but mostly just part of the scenery.

[robust lintel]

Fight them? If we get to build our own castles/kingdoms, I'd much rather have a dragon to help guard it 😌

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/muppets-rock-horns-metalhead-metal-gif-20099513

[white wagon]

For you nerds. In Skyrim where do you meet the main character (hero of Kvatch) from Oblivion ?

[gaunt bear]

The Pelagius Wing, Though not in his original form.

[white wagon]

Depending on unwritten lore quite possibly in his original form. Mantling can be taken in multiple ways but one such way is the fake it till you make it (essentially the mortal and god become synonymous but the godlike part disappears) but yes. So many people dont even realize its kinda crazy, im impressed

[gaunt bear]

Do I get a cookie?

[white wagon]

How about a sweet roll ?

[gaunt bear]

… not really. I’ve had enough sweet rolls from Skyrim. They’re starting to taste the same.

[marble oar]

Spoilers for ESO Gold Road but this is now part of Elder Scrolls Lore now.

||Ithelia chose to leave the reality at the end of the West Weald Story and enter one without magic. Do you think she either

A. Went to our dimension, thusly we can all remember her and they can do merch of our new Daedric Prince.

Or

B. She is now where the Dwemer went?||

[outer sorrel]

Neither

[plain cosmos]

Trick question... You may not.

The nature of the Hero of Kvatch's fate remains unclear. It's not even clearly established that the one who mantles the Madgod and HoK are the same person. Or if they even ARE that person after mantling. Or if there even WAS a mantling in the first place.

It is deliberately left vague, and we have been told that the Mantling angle wasn't even really intentional when Shivering Isles was written.

[plain cosmos]

Agreed. It's probably more like an extreme Fargrave, an isolated sort of prison realm where no magic can be found.

Of course, the nature of the TES multiverse, it's realms, and even how magic works are all terribly defined and basically amount to a jumbled mess of ideas that can best be explained with a D&D tv show meme.

https://tenor.com/view/dungeons-and-dragons-dungeon-master-magic-gif-17932644

[marble oar]

Except we know know that ||Fargrave was Mirrormoor||

Anyways, while the Ithelia of that timeline is gone, there are other Ithelias on the Many Paths. It's always possible an Ithelia from another path comes to visit

[plain cosmos]

I'll be entirely honest.

The Ithelia thing has been half baked and poorly developed. All it's done is muddy the multiverse waters even more, and turn the cosmology if TES into a Marvel-esque 'I don't care, do whatever' quagmire.

I was optimistic about it going in. And they dropped the ball spectacularly.

[sweet plume]

I haven’t even played it yet, money and such comes first

I will be the judge of that

[plain cosmos]

It's definitely subjective, but like... I've found it more disappointing than Starfield's main story.

It feels like chasing the zietgiest rather than telling something of philosophical value.

[sweet plume]

I mean it’s not surprising for something to be subjective these days, like I said I will only ever see a point on something if it’s almost unanimous among a fanbase, but even then that comes with it’s own issues because even things disliked by a majority have people in a crowd who examines things in a different way than others.

[plain cosmos]

Indeed. I'm just getting tired of the superficial use of the Multiverse as a crutch to explain, or justify, free will while having none of the ethical or philosophical consequences.

While at the same time serving as a thingy veiled mechanism for cross-franchise branding, like what Wizards and Fortnite do.

[sweet plume]

The Multiverse makes people feel it’s pointless to care about character deaths among other things because in another reality they are okay. But even then It’s always been the story being told rather than knowing there is another universe out there.

Like Superman dying against Doomsday in one Universe is still something that sticks with people because he goes against a creature that is in everyway his equal while making sure to keep everyone else safe, that story alone was emotional because of sacrificing his life.

Even if Superman exists across different Earths, the story told is still rather beautiful in and of itself to that particular version.

[plain cosmos]

Sure, but it's a cheap copout to strip it of consequence while at the same time pretending those consequences exist. It's effectively facilitating the idea that every death and reload is 'Real' and has 'meaning', just with more window dressing.

It's also not that interesting a take on Multiverses in general. The D&D take is much more nuanced and interesting, and that's... Well, not a good look when the foundation of generic fantasy in the west is more interesting.

[sweet plume]

I mean that’s why I said people feel it makes caring pointless, some people don’t even like the idea of Marvel and DC having Multiple continuity’s

But for a lot that doesn’t really matter as they still feel invested with those particular versions of those characters

[plain cosmos]

And that's fine for them. A lot of people love 'Choices' in stories, despite the fact they're basically the same thing.

Though, people also seem to think The Last of Us was a masterpiece in writing, so maybe I should just accept it and lower my standards.

[sweet plume]

TES And Multiple Timelines tho Is now actually recent isn’t it? Before it was just dragonbreaks and the timeline eventually coming back into a single cohesive timeline.

[sweet plume]

I wouldn’t say it’s a matter of lowering Standards, just that everyone has this different mentality on what makes good writing, I’ve seen it so much that arguing what is and isn’t good writing is sometimes pointless

[plain cosmos]

Yes, prior to that it was more if a Quantum Uncertainty sort of approach. There is only one timeline, and individual actions and alterations solidify potential futures into an actual future.

So, the impact and choices of individuals still mattered, though the potentiality of other figures existed until those actions were taken to define its course.

[sweet plume]

I will say tho that even before this there was this general feeling there is actually multiple timelines, it just was never really confirmed or denied completely, which idk how to exactly take this information, but even with that knowledge in mind, this is our Main TES Universe and I would prefer to see it to it’s end.

[plain cosmos]

Oh, I know that some have felt that way for some time. I just...

I really don't like multiple timeline nonsense. It's usually very lazy.

But, I've complained enough for now. Back to work

[sweet plume]

I think as long as they stick to the main Universe it’s fine, because I don’t see us ever really delving into anything outside of it. Especially when there is so much to still cover

But considering Ithelia being the Prince of Many Path’s… it now means a lot more than I realized

[marble oar]

Think of it this way. The Many Paths allows that all the universes we players have are all canon.

But I did enjoy Ithelia's story. A Daedric Prince being able to defy their nature, even for a short moment, and willing accept exile from her proper place, is a large development for Daedric Princes. If one Prince can change, so can the others.

Besides, the reality of TES has always been super thin. The Dragon breaks, the Numedium, the Staff of Towers. The Staff of Towers confirmed a multiverse way before Ithelia was revealed.

[glacial scarab]

Shadow Magic from Shadowkey confirmed its own as well

[plain cosmos]

Oh, I know what it means. I just think it's dumb.

It's the same sort of thing they did with Starfield. And it didn't work there any better.

The massive uptick in this sort of alternate timeline multiversal irrelevance and people thinking it's profound is about as grating as the whole reaction to the Matrix in 1999. Dredging up antiquated philosophy and pretending it's novel, without even touching on the interesting nuances of it.

[plain cosmos]

Shadowkey didn't explicitly state the existence of alternate timelines. Rather, is expressed the ability to manipulate the conflict of action and outcome to force alternate outcomes into reality.

Buuut now in context, it's just normal alternate timeline nonsense.

The whole thing feels like Valenwood all over again, and has left... Not a sour taste, sour can at least be exciting. A bland and sawdusty taste.

Like chewing dry cardboard.

[raw grail]

What?

[glacial scarab]

If I recall that's how the MP was done. Going into that Alternate world.

[plain cosmos]

It's been years since I played Shadowkey, admittedly.

But yeah. I don't like it. In fact, I'd so so far as to say I hate it.

[raw grail]

||There's a different Ithelia across different Paths? I thought the whole point was that most Princes lie outside of the Paths - since they're a Linear time thing - and Ithelia is specifically associated with them in such a way she can travel between them, like strand of parallel cable to the next||

[plain cosmos]

Like, Oblivion levels of 'Thanks, I hate it'.

[raw grail]

Sorry, spoilered since new content

[raw grail]

These "possible worlds" are the alternate timelines

... chosen to explore this relation of world to shadow, Azra was the first to realize that shadows were not a mere absence of light but a reflection of possible worlds created by forces in conflict. A light strikes a rock, and the shadow is a record of their clash, past, present and future.

Just like the Elder Scrolls list "all possible pasts, presents, and futures"

The alternate timelines thing is specifically a hallmark of linear time

Which is part of why ||Ithelia|| is so weird (although I don't know quite enough to actually know whether I like her or not, although I've been leaning toward "yes" the more I learn)

It probably helps she confirms a lot of what I'd already been thinking, just in a different way and through a different lens than I was ever expecting

[raw grail]

This idea of "possible worlds" irl rubs up against multiverse theory too

Not always, but definitely commonly enough

[marble oar]

||at the outcast inn, we meet three other Ithelia's on different paths. They each made different decisions from ours on how to handle Mora coming calling. also the Ithelia's have a drink that can restore an Ithelia that has lost control of their powers.||

[raw grail]

Ohhhh interesting

I haven't gotten around to checking everything out yet. That is weird...

That I don't like so much

That changes some of how I've been thinking about this and her

[marble oar]

She is a manifestion of choice is the way i see it.

There are many possibilities but which one we are on is set by choice. And that choice is what gave birth to the Ithelia's. The issue is ||that much power in one being is dangerous and reality is weak. Like glass, it can shatter. Hence her Daedric plane and creatures being mirrors and glass||

[plain cosmos]

Yeah, that's how I took it.

But, that's not what it is now.

[raw grail]

Isn't it? Those possibilities are just their own lines

Like a cable where the individual threads are different lines of possibility

(to reference an ESO quote I like)

[plain cosmos]

A possibility, and an ACTUAL timeline, are different things.

The Many Paths are more like Sliders. And not nearly as cool due to the lack of John Ryse Davies.

More like season 3

[raw grail]

Did you go back in time?
"Back isn't the right word for it. I understand so much more now than I once did.
Don't think of time and space as a road upon which you travel, but rather a rope, or a cable. Many threads, all bound together with no beginning or end."

[raw grail]

They're "possibilities" to us in this timeline, but they're "actual" when considering all timelines

[marble oar]

Yeah that's it.

[raw grail]

Dragon breaks are explicitly allowing these otherwise contradictory possibilities to all exist at once

That has been the case since Morrowind. This isn't new lore, it's just new for it to be outside of Mundus

The structured linearity of Nirn's time breaks down into the chaotic nonlinearity of the Dawn's time

[raw grail]

The threads of the cable melt together, figuratively speaking

[plain cosmos]

And I hate that.

[fathom jewel]

It sounds like Ithelia is simply a tool for ESO/Zenimax to retcon lore at will.

[plain cosmos]

Because it's trying to have your cake and eat it too.

[plain cosmos]

It feels more to me like a way to allow them to use the Elder Scrolls IP in crossover games.

[fathom jewel]

How would that work? Or perhaps a better question - what would such a crossover potentially look like?

[plain cosmos]

Look at Magic the Gathering as an example. It's has crossovers with Halo, Warhammer, Dungeons and Dragons... CANONICAL crossovers facilitated by its in-setting multiverse.

Cross branding is a huge market these days. And it really feels like Ithelia was just designed to allow them to cash in on that while being able to cling to the claim of it being 'Lore Friendly'.

Potentially motivated by questions about the lore friendlyness of various Creation Club content, and Crown Store stuff as well...

Now it doesn't matter, because you can just pull out the 'Its from another timeline' get-out-of-literary-integrity-free card.

[fathom jewel]

I see. So BGS and Zenimax are considering how to tie together the FO, ES and SF universes. Hmm. Sounds like an impossible task to me. Unless....Mirrormoor or whatever place Ithelia went is used as some sort of 'bridge' between universes...

Tying the SF and FO universes together should be pretty easy. Earth could be treated as a forgotten corner of the SF universe, left behind by spacefarers who began colonizing the stars just before the outbreak of nuclear war on the home planet. But pulling together both of those with ES in a 'productive' way is going to be very challenging.

[marble oar]

Well Nirnroot already exists in Fallout

The brotherhood of steel found it. Also the iron faces they pull from the ground all look very similar to the Dwemer bronze faces.

We also know that Tamerial is not on its first Calpa cycle.

But if they had intended to do that, there was no reason to kill off earth the way they did in Starfield. Like, that kind of makes having fallout in Starfield impossible

[sweet plume]

I doubt that tbh

[sweet plume]

Personally I don’t see why that would be needed, they have already done small TES Crossovers with Fortnite and other things without Ithelia being a factor. A lot of those is very much it’s own thing

[sweet plume]

Again I really think you guys are blowing this up to mean it allows them to do crossovers but those crossovers they did in the games are not even meant to be taken seriously and were done before Ithelia, Fallout Shelter having Elder Scrolls Stuff isn’t meant to be taken as canon, neither is Fortnite having Fallout or Elder Scrolls Stuff.

[plain cosmos]

Even if it wasn't designed for that, or doesn't ultimately result in that, I still don't like it.

It's ultimately the simple (IE wrong) explanation of quantum uncertainty, and I find it very tiring.

[sweet plume]

The only Quantum I recognize is Nuka Cola

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/angry-angry-cat-mad-cat-mad-death-stare-gif-2007099240114134459

[plain cosmos]

That's Schrodinger's Disappointed Cat.

[fathom jewel]

What justification does Ithelia offer for removing herself to a non-magic plane/dimension/domain/universe? She's a magical being, so I'm not seeing the logic.

[plain cosmos]

Well, it's probably rooted in the generally wibbly wobbly lack of clear rules for what magic IS on TES.

Sometimes it's used for any sort of nom-natural power or manipulation. Sometimes it's specifically related to Magicka and Spells. Sometimes it's literally everything.

They don't seem to actually KNOW what magic is or how it works in the setting. So it's ultimately a meaningless claim without more context.

[sweet plume]

Seems to be a lack of wanting to commit to the limits of what Magic can do

Considering what we have seen Magic to do in this series

[brisk perch]

We get a little hint within the Scribing questline, but it's mostly implied rather than outright stated

It seems that Magicka ||is a form of the life force of everything that ever lived, Aetherius is a collection of afterlives that slowly dissolve mortal life after death, feeding back into the world through the sun and stars, as well as through various other sources||

Also, it seems that ||Magic in general might originate from stories that are told long enough/to enough people that they take on a life of their own||

[plain cosmos]

Conceptually, based on the scraps we get from various sources...

'Magic' is a catch-all term for any sort of of reality including through willpower and 'energy'. What that energy is, depends on the source.

Creatia seems to be the base packet of energy, with it being the basic sustaining 'power' of the cosmos.

Magicka, is Creatia filtered through Magnus, of possibly Aetherius and is the source most easily accessable to Mortals.

Azure Plasm seems to be the source filtered through at LEAST Molag Bal.

Other filtering mediums include Oblivion (Chaotic Creatia, also collected by White-Gold) and whatever source filtered through the Heart of Lorkhan.

Problem is... ALL of these things have been called Magic at one point or another. And Creatia, at least, is the sustaining life force of even Daedra. Without it, they 'starve'.

So if a spirit, were to go somewhere without 'Magic', the rules as established you kill them.

Unless Magic is being used in a much more limited context.

And that's sorta the whole problem with the vague, undefined and often conflicting way magic is approached in the setting.

And this worldbuilding failure ultimately contributes to storytelling failures.

You can't engage with actions or narratives which don't even try to establish rules and standards. A character doing X means nothing if you don't even reasonably know what X is.

A character throwing a mountain isn't engaging, threatening, of impressive if you haven't at least established that it's impressive. a character going someplace meas nothing, unless we know what going to that place signifies or entails.

[brisk perch]

Magic does have well defined rules. A lot of people get angry if it isn't explained to them in a way they understand it easily.

Technically, there are multiple sets of rules to The Elder Scrolls multiverse. Most of it is literally powered by clap your hands if you believe.

[plain cosmos]

As I said, it PRETENDS to have rules. But it's really best explained by D&D cartoon memes.

https://tenor.com/view/dungeons-and-dragons-dungeon-master-magic-gif-17932644

[fathom jewel]

There's also the complications caused by multiple FORMS of magic - alteration, restoration, yadda yadda yadda. The least explored is the Tonal magic. We know the dwemer were rather good at it. We also know that sound could be used by Thu'um practitioners, dragons and Sword Singers. All we need is for the Sload to show up with their own twist on Tonal/Sound magic, which considering who the Sload are, probably looks something like this:

[plain cosmos]

Well, those schools do add to the problem. Some sources indicate that they are arbitrary distinctions created for scholastic reasons. Others state that they are ACTUAL different types of magic and behave fundamentally differently.

[plain cosmos]

Though, and I'm probably being generous... Having technically arbitrary academic divisions of something is not mutually exclusive with those things being real and having real behaviours.

Biology is really just Chemistry. And Chemistry is really just Physics.

[topaz dome]

Let's get back to discussing Elder Scrolls lore, folks.

[plain cosmos]

Now, entirely unrelated, but this made me think of gremlins. which made me wonder... Did the Dwemer believe in gremlins in their machines?

[fathom jewel]

I doubt it. The Dwemer were very confident in their own intelligence and abilities. They wouldn't likely consider their creations and inventions to be wondrous beyond what they put into them.

[raw grail]

What sources state they're anything but arbitrary distinctions? I haven't seen those

[fathom jewel]

This should....uhhh....'clarify' things in that regard: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magic

[patent belfry]

Omg a disembodied hand

[plain cosmos]

I cast... LED mace!

[raw grail]

Is that for me?

I don't know where it does so. I've read that page many times and I just did so, and the article does not provide any sources I can see which contradict the idea that schools of magic are based on fundamentally different types of magic instead of arbitrary categorization based on similarities in results

(sound magic vs Magicka magic and the like are not schools of magic)

[robust lintel]

That's no ordinary hand.. it is the hand of count petofi! Doom surely awaits all who come into it's possession. Only a gypsy can cure and control that foul evil.

[fathom jewel]

Dude, to summarize the page and the question at hand:

Q - are the schools of magic arbitrary or is there some logic behind it?

A - Exactly!

https://tenor.com/view/air-bag-in-seat-prank-air-bag-seat-prank-russia-gif-23663921

[robust lintel]

There goes another brain cell

[fossil pendant]

who would win in a duel, to the death manimarco(mortal form) or shalidor

[abstract ledge]

Both feel weak in eso but are strong in universe

[raw grail]

Your response feels kind of condescending ngl, and you also didn't actually give me what I'm asking for. I'm asking for a specific source which states Schools are not arbitrary. All of the sources I am finding on UESP say they are arbitrary. This is not helpful

[raw grail]

I was also asking Ter, since Ter made the claim

If anyone else has the answer, that answer is appreciated, but I don't want a vague link to a wiki article when asking for a specific citation. That's not what wiki articles are for

[plain cosmos]

It was initially proposed by the lore community to explain the loss of Skills like Thaumaturgy between Daggerfall and Morrowind, or Enchanting between Morrowind and Oblivion. However, it was first explicitly mentioned in Oblivion', The Black Arts on Trial:

The 'Schools' of magicka are, as we know, artificial constructs, originally formulated by Vanus Galerion to divide and thereby simplify study. They have changed many times throughout the years, but at their heart, every Master knows, they are all linked together.

[plain cosmos]

And, for the record, it is .. ahem. Unrolls scrolls

Prince Terical of the House of Lorita, High Archon of Asuryan, Master of the Demesne of Lileath's Favour, High Seer or the Grand Alliance of the Eastern Bulwark, and only begotten son of Lachdanan the Swarm Breaker.

https://tenor.com/view/warhammer40k-dawn-of-war3-dawn-of-war3-eldar-aeldari-howling-banshees-gif-21111980

[raw grail]

I'm asking for the opposite. What says they aren't arbitrary?

[raw grail]

Ooh, prestigious

Those sent at weird at times cuz my data was spotty there

[plain cosmos]

Sorry, I misinterpreted.

There are sources like Breathing Water, Magic from the Sky, and the various lore on Atronachs, which indicate that specific schools and their energies have very specific behaviours. Which would indicate that they aren't arbitrary, and are in face specific TYPES of magic in their own right (more akin to the Warhammer Winds of Magic).

This is also represented in the Franky atrocious and borderline silly attempts to make In Game Racials actually part of the lore, but thats a whole other level of 'Just stop it already'...

[raw grail]

I'd taken those as real phenomena which are the product of magic, rather than different types of magic/magical energies in and of itself, but now that I look at them through that lens, I can see what you're saying I think

[raw grail]

I don't see this as generous, for instance, this is just genuinely how I see magic (or at least spellcasting) in TES

One really common thing people say that I think actually demonstrates this very well is "shouldn't all (or most) of the schools be Alteration?"

I usually point out Mysticism and Conjuration especially don't fit that so well, but for most of the others it's a good observation that gets to the same point you made with biology, chemistry, and physics. Even Illusion depending on how it works. Much of Restoration and Destruction are really just alterations of different flavors. Going beyond Alteration, they're all really just the same basic system of magicka + willpower = affect reality, grouped arbitrarily based on both utility and real similarities that can be and are reasonably grouped many other ways for many other purposes

[raw grail]

Even Magic from the Sky's elements are just another system of categorization, one which we see other cultures come to different conclusions on. Flesh Atronach lore in SI presents another system. Destruction elements present another system. An Altmer system has 5 elements. Blades' Ayleid elements are a little different than Magic from the Sky's Ayleid elements. They're all based in reality but the specific groupings, names, "what counts," etc are kind of arbitrary

[jagged marten]

Is Lorkhan the Daedric Prince of free will/potential? Could he be considered such?

[glacial scarab]

He isn't a Daedric Prince.

I think the only one who says that he is is Mankar Camoran who has his own reliability issues

[brisk perch]

There isn't really a Daedric Prince of Free Will ||unless you consider Ithelia, Daedric Prince of Paths, the Fatechanger, but her lore is quite new and giving the full details would be too much spoilers for now||

[jagged marten]

Lorkhan does not reside in Aetherius, he may be an ancestor to Man but he does not live in Aetherius, instead he resides in Mundus, his own place of existence, only divines which reside in aetherius are considered aedra although talos is a special case,

[jagged marten]

Well... that's why I'm proposing as such

[plain cosmos]

Lorkhan does seem to reside mostly within Mundus. Only his spirit escapes to Sovengard.

Still, since Fate and Fee Will are mutually exclusive, it would make our newest price Free Will by default.

Though given the ending of that thread, it's more likely that Free Will simply does not exist. So there is no god of it, Daedra or otherwise.

[raw grail]

Where did you get that definition of Aedra?

That doesn't match up with most definitions I've seen. It's usually more reliant on ancestry and sacrificing oneself to finish Nirn

[plain cosmos]

Place of Residence is not an in-universe definition. It's an out of universe one based on common criteria for the classifications.

None of the in-universe definitions actually hold up to scrutiny, and are bad definitions.

Though, even then, Residing in Aetherius isn't generally a characteristic of Aedra in the definition

[brisk perch]

Latest prologue in The Elder Scrolls specifically states ||Free Will exists within the context of this story, period, and only Mortals have it, Daedra, and especially Daedric Princes, do not. Daedric Princes also cannot change their nature once it has been defined, it can be masked or hidden for a time, but it will always return.||

[plain cosmos]

Yes, I am aware what it says. But what it depicts contradicts that.

You cannot have alternate timelines where every outcome of a choice plays out, and free will, in the same system. They are mutually exclusive concepts.

Just like you can't have free will and omniscience in the same system. No matter what you pretend.

[brisk perch]

||Free Will is the ability to choose a different path. There are infinite possible paths. Lack of free will, or incomplete free will, means you're railroaded into a specific path. New paths/timelines are created every time someone with free will makes a choice, it seems. Limitations of videogames aside, it means in-story, regardless of your IRL prejudices/biases/beliefs, free will exists.||

[plain cosmos]

Again, I know how they explain it, and I am saying that explanation does not work. It is logically inconsistent.

The whole plot was just terrible and wasted the potential, while utterly undermining the concept of free will entirely..

It's simple.|| If a choice results in a branching timelines where every outcome is realised in a different timeline, no actual choice occured. Because EVERY outcome happens, guaranteeing that every choice is made.

That is just Determinism with more steps. And therefore no Free Will actually exists, because they very act of choice guarantees the fulfillment of all outcomes.||

[fathom jewel]

Wait - maybe Lorkhan's 'best use' is as someone who is not either Aedra or Daedra, but as his own guy, independent of both and deliberately 'stirring the pot' of the prevailing order of things. In fact, it might be interesting to bring him back specifically for that role. Yeah, it won't be easy - after all, his corpse is floating in orbit and his heart is either destroyed or floating around in some unknown plane somewhere. But there's an element of disruption to him that the likes of Mehrunes Dagon doesn't really offer convincingly. Also, Lorkhan fills the role of the divinity for Men more so than Akatosh/Auriel, who seems rather more ambivalent.

[plain cosmos]

Based on most classifications, he is Aedra.

Unless you ask Mankar. And no one should ask Mankar anything.

[fathom jewel]

But they seemingly rejected him. Decisively. And, interestingly enough, it seems the Daedra have some sympathy for him. The fact that he's not 'loyal' to either camp makes him interesting. He stands out. Of course, you could say that about Sithis as well. But Sithis seems to value his privacy quite a bit. Lorkhan is decidedly more demonstrative - even showy. Maybe even something of an attention who-wah.

Is Lorkhan supposed to be Satakal in the Redguard pantheon? Maybe we will be seeing more of him.

[plain cosmos]

Maybe. He may also be Sep in their pantheon. It depends how you ask.

[fathom jewel]

LOL! Thank you. The Redguard mythos are still confusing to me. Maybe ES6 will provide some much-needed clarity without homogenizing it.

[sweet plume]

I mean considering the whole idea of What the Elder Scrolls are and the different possibilities and outcomes… it lines up.

[plain cosmos]

The Scrolls were always depicted more like Dune Prescience, not actual alternate timelines.

[sweet plume]

Dune Prescience?

[plain cosmos]

The mechanism by which Paul and others are able to predict the future, and thus manipulate events towards particular outcomes.

It's effectively the ability to see and predict outcomes with perfect accuracy, simulating potential choices and interactions in order to determine which are best.

[sweet plume]

I don’t think the branching timelines really matter anyway, because in Elder Scrolls we only have the one Timeline we are in.

[plain cosmos]

Practically no. Unless they start playing with jumping timelines.

However, conceptually they destroy the presence of Free Will and strip out the actual agency of individual agents.

[sweet plume]

Is it more because it changes how we see every game now?

[plain cosmos]

No, more about the logical conflict between Free Will, and the lack of exclusivity of outcomes that it requires.

If everything that can happen, happens; there is no more agency than if only one potential thing could happen.

Actual Free Will requires an exclusivity of outcomes, and a individual agency to determine which outcome occurs.

[sweet plume]

https://tenor.com/view/ithelia-gold-road-eso-elder-scrolls-elder-scrolls-online-gif-8997084499846720231

[plain cosmos]

Also, like... Her visual design was not inspiring at all.

Molag Bal, she was definitely not.

[sweet plume]

People compared her more to Meridia honestly, but considering her background that made sense

[sweet plume]

I don’t see Molag Bal

[plain cosmos]

I mean, Molag Bal's design was great.

[sweet plume]

Meridia and Ithelia designs are not meant to invoke this kind of monster or beast like Design considering they are of similar origins

[plain cosmos]

It was a great expansion on what was effectively just idols on Skyrim, and a reimagining of the original design from Daggerfall (while mostly disregarding his design from Morrowind and Oblivion).

But Ithelia's design, similar to Meridia (who is another visually lame Prince) is just... A chick in a robe.

[sweet plume]

I mean… again the idea is they aren’t originally Daedric Princes in Origin.

[plain cosmos]

No one is.

[sweet plume]

No but they also came from more Aedric Origins

[plain cosmos]

As a general rule, TES's female divinities are pretty heavily unnecessarily human in appearance.

[sweet plume]

Maybe but I think it works better to contrast against the other Princes, aside from that Meridia may not appear the same as she did in the base game, should we see her later her appearance may have changed considering so much asset reuse at the time

[plain cosmos]

It's not just Meridian though. Nocturnal, Azura, Mephala, Namira, even Vaermina. They're all just 'Women'.

[sweet plume]

Mephala is female but have you seen her Summerset Design?

[plain cosmos]

Ithelia's visual design just throws another pretty lady on the pile, with nothing particularly distinct or characterful about her.

[sweet plume]

It’s not just female, it’s very much arachnid as well

[sweet plume]

As for Nocturnal her design comes from Skyrim

[plain cosmos]

Eh, it's very Akasha. Almost like they were afraid to go full Drider with her.

[sweet plume]

I’m just saying man, it’s not your standard female in comparison

[plain cosmos]

Personally, I think they should have doubled down on her manipulation fascet, and gone full Beyond the Aquila Rift with her.

[sweet plume]

Ya know Clavicus is also not so monstrous besides his Horns

[plain cosmos]

No, and I'm not keen on him much either.

https://tenor.com/view/greta-aquila-rift-spider-monster-gif-23605204

That's more what I think they should have gone for for Mephala.

[sweet plume]

Regardless I’m not against some princes looking more Monster than others, in fact Meridia and Ithelia appearing more Female and approachable works by comparison, especially Meridia who is the Lady of Light, despite being a Daedric Prince

[plain cosmos]

Capable of looking humanoid in silhouette, but in reality something far, far different.

[sweet plume]

What looks holy is in reality something much worse underneath which they have hinted with her various times

[plain cosmos]

It ultimately depends on what a Prince is doing at the time, and what their goals are. Because they have active control over how they appear.

But as an antagonistic force, you'd expect something a little more intimidating than a standard Paris fashion show runway model

[sweet plume]

Maybe but they probably don’t always care how they appear.

Sheogorath appeared as his Skooma Cat Self in Northern Elsweyr to mess with a Temple of Worshippers, he was totally having so much fun being a cat so you can tell it matters more to him than other princes

[plain cosmos]

I'm being overly harsh, I know. Artistically, TES has been about as interesting as a wet rag since Oblivion, so I shouldn't expect more.

[fathom jewel]

Hang on - there might be something buried in the human psyche that instinctively influences our conception/imagining of certain kinds of spiritual figures which is reflected in the appearance of all the female divines (aedric or daedric) of ES. Let me explain: there are people who, over the last century, have survived extremely traumatic situations - usually wars, but occasionally natural disasters - that report having seen the Angel of Death during their experience. What's interesting about it is that no matter if the person is young or old, male or female, or their cultural social background, they all say the same thing: Death Is A Woman. There's something fundamental to that.

[sweet plume]

I wouldn’t say it’s being harsh, it’s just you have a preferred artistic direction

[sweet plume]

Like everyone does, but for some they are satisfied with what they have, others not. And that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

[plain cosmos]

Morrowind simply set an expectation for me, that Bethesda (and for the most part ESO) has utterly failed to meet since.

Though ESO does generally do better.

[sweet plume]

I mean I know one guy who hates Elsweyr even tho he is a Khajiit fan, although tbf I don’t like him because he stopped playing the other main stories since, So I deemed him as someone’s opinion not mattering because he let his personal distaste of how they did his favorite race to affect how he felt about Elder Scrolls Lore in general

We butted heads as Khajiit Fans so there was also that.

[plain cosmos]

I actually think they've done decently well with the Khajiitm

Bosmer... Well... Let's not get into that.

[sweet plume]

But this goes into what I believe we have forgotten as time went on. That everyone has different standards on what a franchise should be and should do.

If someone thinks Khajiit were done bad and others think Khajiit were done good. At what point do you ever see who is right and who is wrong?

There’s just this general feeling that you can’t go one direction without upsetting one group of fans and going another direction without upsetting another.

[plain cosmos]

Oh, absolutely.

[sweet plume]

Like I don’t think anybody can deny Imperials got the short stick, opinion or not it’s true. We don’t have much on them as a people or a race.

The others got fleshed out and are subject to opinions

[plain cosmos]

Really they can get in line. Imperials, Nords, Bosmer, Bretons...

The list of well developed groups is much shorter.

[sweet plume]

But yes that goes into what I feel is opinion and fact, like once a race is developed enough that’s when Opinions can factor in, when they aren’t, you can definitely point to something as more fact than opinion

[plain cosmos]

Absolutely, but theres also a problem where people think facts are opinions.

For instance, Free Will. You cannot have Free Will in a system with perfect predictability (omniscience) or one where every outcome is realised (branching timelines).

That's not an opinion, that is a core logical foundation of the conditions for Free Will.

Now, whether you like Free Will, or Determinism, or Branching Timelines, is opinion. But the factual reality of the dynamics don't change.

Some things are more structural and formulaic as well.

Take Skyrim as an example. At no point are Alduin's goals or motivations explored. This is a narrative weakness that leads to an unclear motivation for others to oppose him.

Whether or not you can accept or even enjoy that, doesn't change the fact it is a very real flaw in the storytelling of the game.

[sweet plume]

But the crucial thing is do they know that? Considering The Elder Scrolls World isn’t exactly to that point where they can determine what is and isn’t free will?

[plain cosmos]

Oh, people IN it definitely don't know they don't have free will. And that's fine.

In that regard, my problem is more the writers telling US they do, when said writers clearly don't actually understand what they're talking about or the implications of the world they have built.

[sweet plume]

Is there an argument to suggest otherwise is another question?

[plain cosmos]

Well, the nature of the Many Paths. It eliminates the possibility of Free Will, the existence of which in relation to mortals was the primary revelation earlier.

But it CAN'T exist in the Many Paths model they have depicted. So there is a clear logical disconnect between what they are telling us and what the reality is.

Which leads to either one or the other source of information being just full on wrong. Either the Many Paths can't work that way, or Free Will doesn't exist.

[patent belfry]

The Khajiit are done well as property and field workers. (This message was sponsored by the Telvanni and Dres)

[fathom jewel]

Hmm. You just gave me a thought.

The Argonians have already had a war with the Dunmer to strike back over the Dunmer practice of enslaving them. Might the Khajiit be motivated to do the same? They would be operating at a major geographical handicap, but it's something to consider.

[patent belfry]

That war thing never made a lot of sense to me

Then again Skyrim lore so whatever

What I want to know is why Hentus didn’t want to go get his own pants back

[fathom jewel]

Huh? Come again? I don't remember this.

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/family-guy-stewie-griffin-say-what-say-whaaat-shock-gif-20602579

[topaz dome]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Hentus_Needs_Pants

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/risitas-el-risitas-juan-joya-borja-issou-jesus-gif-12145166

[plain cosmos]

https://tenor.com/view/george-costanza-i-was-in-the-pool-gif-15897385

Now I want to watch Seinfeld again... And that's a dangerous road to go down.

Though, Vardenfell is highly volcanic. The likelyhood of a cool river is much lower than in other places.

[fathom jewel]

Think Iceland - VERY volcanic, but ice cold rivers. The northern half of Vvardenfell is well positioned for that. In fact, it might be very interesting to revisit the island one day. By ES5, it had already been nearly two centuries since the Red Year, so there's the possibility that parts of the island had recovered. Maybe by ES6 (assuming it doesn't go BACK in time) Vvardenfell will once again be inhabited by flora, fauna, the Ash tribes and one or more of the Great Houses.

[plain cosmos]

Maybe. It's important to remember that, at its smallest scale, Vardenfell is larger than any volcano that has erupted in human history. At its largest, it's bigger than Olympus Mons.

We're lucky Tamriel survived.

That sort of eruption isn't something you easily build back from.

[fathom jewel]

Excellent point. Makes one think that the Dunmer might have benefited from thinking thru their settlement plans a bit more when they first arrived in Resdayn. Actually, now that I think of it, the Dwemer should have done so as well.

[rustic frigate]

Ok I'm curious i wanna ask a question and i'm not trying to start anything ik it's a hot topic i just would like to know is ESO cannon so i can keep up with current cannon, I have seen yes i have seen no what is it?

[sweet plume]

Yes it’s canon, it’s very much confirmed to be and the only ones saying no are either…

1: Not aware of this.

2: Hate online games so they refuse to see it as canon.

3: Know it’s Canon but hate that it is because it’s not a traditional Singleplayer Elder Scrolls.

[proven moss]

I agree with XBox Wolf. For all intents and purposes it's canonical for the sake of arguing about lore online.

With my developing thinking about lore theory, however, I don't think it really matters. If you're going to make a convincing argument about the lore of any game, you need to do it using evidence from that game and oog sources about that game. In this way, you could view each title of the series as existing in its own parallel universe with its own version of the truth. You also get to avoid all the problems that come with attempting to synthesize the lore across different titles.

[sweet plume]

Ultimately what is clear is that all of the events of those games happened. Arena is wildly different compared to the series as a whole and its Story is still something that did happen and caused the downfall of the Empire over time.

Imperials as a race did not exist until Morrowind, but they exist now and always have by that logic.

[proven moss]

The games (except Arena by virtue of being first, and TES:O by virtue of being chronologically first) do build off the narratives of previous titles. But I really see these as branching paths. In Dragonborn for example the Nerevarine is called a "he" and Neloth is a important character. In Morrowind you could be either male or female, and you could accept a quest in which you assassinate Neloth. So while some event much like the events of Morrowind occurred, it wasn't the same as the player themselves experienced.

[rustic frigate]

I need to play the older titles my first one was 4 i own all of them on PC but i need a new chassis fan

[proven moss]

There's also the issue of books for example. Why are some included and some excluded? Why are they sometimes edited? One could argue, I think, that deliberately excluded books are non-canonical to the games they are left out of. Especially since there is very little reason to do so from a development standpoint.

[raw grail]

A 4th option wolf didn't present: some people just straight up don't like the lore, sometimes for very valid reasons. The issue, of course, is just bc the lore isn't to your tastes doesn't mean it's not canon

Anyone is free to pay attention to and discard any lore they want, although imo it should be done without the expectation that others are going to follow you down that path

[raw grail]

I'm of the opinion that excluded books aren't a big issue. For instance, Varieties of Faith doesn't appear in Oblivion for no good reason. Does that mean it's non-canon in Oblivion?

[sweet plume]

I mean yeah, in which case, it’s whatever

[fathom jewel]

"Canon", not "cannon"

[raw grail]

Small piece of context, although it's validity is up for debate:

In the Dragonborn DLC, Neloth calls the Nerevarine a “he.” Is the Nerevarine canonically male? (01/25/15)

That line was a mistake a designer made in haste. Consider it a glitch.

- MK

[fathom jewel]

Nerevar is referred to as a guy on both uesp and elderscrolls.fandom.com. But the sex of the Nerevarine was up for grabs in-game.

[rustic frigate]

Dude i was cooking while typing forgive me

[proven moss]

That is what I'm arguing. Why else exclude Varieties of Faith unless the book's contents went somehow went against the developer vision for the game? This book doesn't fit in this game, so we're excluding it. It's not that different than excluding King Edward from Morrowind because it no longer fit with the lore or tone or whatever of the game. Sure we don't know why Varieties was excluded but how if not purposefully so?

[rustic frigate]

Oh boy what have i triggered 😂

[proven moss]

I'm aware of this. And I believe MK's explanation. But, it's in the game none-the-less. That, at the very least, makes it fair game for interpretation. Just like the Amulet of Kings being worn by Mankar in Oblivion.

[rustic frigate]

See this is why I argue Fallout is the superior Bethesda ip though my very first rpg was Morrowind before i was old enough to understand what i was doing then 4 when i was

(Elder scrolls 4)

But i will always have a love for The franchise

[raw grail]

I think we have fundamentally different views on this, then

[proven moss]

Aye. This is, as far as I know, a new approach to interpreting the lore that I'm trying to convince people to take up.

I remain unconvincing, aha

[raw grail]

Tbf I've talked to LadyN about this briefly and she mentioned a similar idea of the games each being considered their own version of the world or something to that effect. The idea has never sat right with me, probably in part because it harms my ability to approach it as a "real world". Personally it is immersion breaking

Factually I can't see anything pointing to one or the other being a more accurate perspective

I have taken on some aspects of the perspective, though. I try to keep a much closer watch on what comes from what game, and try to consider whether something could have been written with information that was newly revealed to us in mind - or if the new information was written with the old in mind. Talos as Ysmir as of Morrowind was a very different idea than Talos as Ysmir as of Skyrim, for instance, because Skyrim expanded massively on Ysmir as a concept, and the link Nords have to Dragons. However, at the same time, some of Oblivion's mentions of Ysmir change depending on what context you consider. I'm thinking specifically of:

The Chapel has made enemies here in the past. The Nords prefer their dragon Ysmir to our Father Akatosh.
If we're not allowed to take Morrowind or Skyrim's sources on the title of Ysmir for context on this usage of it, the only Ysmir we're left with is Wulfharth. There's clear references to Ysmir being linked to dragons in Oblivion, but nothing about Talos, or the Nordic name of Kings - those are only things present in sources like Arcturian Heresy, and Varieties of Faith in the Empire, which only appear in Morrowind and Skyrim

(nvm the Arcturian Heresy doesn't mention it. I misplaced a passage)

(it was PGE1)

[proven moss]

I think they can exist side-by-side, just like there are various forms of literary criticism, or different schools of history. What I'm describing would be similar to, uh, formalism perhaps?

[fathom jewel]

Just teasing, bro ☺️

[rustic frigate]

Valid man is all good

[proven moss]

And yeah, to there is a form of this were you might only interpret the lore of a game backwards, including the evidence of previous titles but excluding future ones

This might be the closest to how the devs actually develop the lore of the games. Though of course outright recons are still widely acknowledged to be present in the lore

[raw grail]

Yeah, true. Arguably they have different uses for different purposes and feelings, rather than necessarily competing

[sweet plume]

Btw one last thing, the Devs of ESO literally consult with Bethesda when making new content, which is also evident of how careful they are with making new Elder Scrolls Related Content

[fathom jewel]

I wonder if there's anything in the ESO development history and roadmap which might give clues regarding ES6. There just might be - after all, the coordination between ZoS and BGS on ES is quite tight.

[sweet plume]

The very big theory is that they are avoiding Hammerfell completely due to the next mainline game being set in Hammerfell.

[brisk perch]

Currently, there are hints that the 2025 chapter would be Black Marsh, Central Skyrim/Winterhold, or some part of Hammerfell

[fathom jewel]

I would bet the 2025 ESO DLC will be more Skyrim. Call it a gut feel.

[fathom jewel]

Yeah. I look at Gold Road and the thing that really stands out is that the DLC doesn't allow you to reach the border with HF. To me, that's significant.

[pastel sorrel]

Well literally the trailer itself most likely is set in southern Hammerfell with the mountain border with Cyrodiil off in the distance.

It's the only place the geography, terrain and sunlight line up properly

[plain cosmos]

Assuming the trailer is indicative of the intended landscape and not a generic enough one that they could just slap a title over to get it out the door.

[fathom jewel]

Maybe. I remember seeing an article where that demo actually matched up very closely with an ESO Hammerfell panorama. Thus, it's either original work or repurposed ESO material to throw people off the scent of the trail. One would begin to think that BGS is holding information back from us..... 😉

[topaz dome]

I scanned YouTube to see if I could find a video about this. I didn't notice any, but I did come across a video which claims to have found a reference to TES VI's location in the Starfield announcement trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThqHXP2WGOY&pp=ygUQdGVzIDYgdGVhc2VyIGVzbw%3D%3D

[plain cosmos]

Yes, the rather infamous 'Paint Chip Conspiracy'.

[fathom jewel]

Wasn't a video - it was a screen cap. If I can find it, I'll post it.

OK, guys - see this pic with the two peculiar mountains?

https://www.pcgamesn.com/wp-content/sites/pcgamesn/2021/12/elder-scrolls-6-release-date-speculation.jpg

Somebody a good year or more ago saw this and matched them up quite closely with an ESO HF image/screencap. I can't find the original article, but maybe somebody who has any of the ESO HF DLCs can find this. I think it was supposed to be in northern HF.

[pastel sorrel]

They outright said the trailer does contain clues

[proven moss]

I thought they said something more ambiguous than that

[pastel sorrel]

As I recall it was Todd Howard directly stating it.

Those kinds of mountains are common throughout Hammerfell, and the terrain best lines up with it being the southern coastline looking towards the border with Cyrodiil (making that Rihad off to the right, possibly Taneth center-frame).

[brisk perch]

Plot twist: it's not Tamriel at all

[fathom jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/were-not-in-kansas-anymore-to-to-wizard-of-oz-wicked-witch-gif-11550112

[fathom jewel]

Here's a new article about 'art style' in ES, including commentary on ES4 and 5 and how they might relate (or not) to ES6 in this regard: https://gamerant.com/dragon-age-veilguard-elder-scrolls-6-art-style/

The reason I post this is because it is a potentially interesting topic, but also incidentally raises another potential topic: facial and physical expression in NPCs. I was not at all impressed by the facial and physical communication of NPCs in any of the last 3 games, though it improved over each title. My criticism is a bit unfair because such software capabilities are extremely demanding on PCs and consoles and the software technology has had to evolve over time. However, I think this technology has made significant progress since the release of ES5 and I believe it would be a great loss if at least some of this technology advancement was not reflected in ES6 NPC facial and body expression. Voice acting and NPC detailing help, of course, but those can only take you so far. Does anyone know of a title that has this technology and has implemented it in an impressive way?

p.s. to whoever is administering this channel - maybe this question should have been posed in the general forum. My apologies.

[raw grail]

I have an older but interesting and perhaps relevant quote from Todd

Yeah Todd stop swearing

Bro he swore even more?!

Alarra: So, do you have a favorite game in the series?

baratron: Oh, ask the man what his favorite child is! [laugh]

Alarra: That's what I was thinking when I saw that one!

Todd Howard: Most people would say, you know, "The last one is the most refined." Right? Well. So Skyrim is the most refined, but people will say "Well I prefer Morrowind, I prefer Oblivion, I prefer this" and we say "We made those too, we love those games". They are intentionally different. Whereas people really like Morrowind, it's a very exotic world. But people forget - when Morrowind came out, the Daggerfall fans went "What the [censored] are you doing?" Right? And then Oblivion comes out and the Morrowind fans go "What the [censored] are you doing?" and then Skyrim comes out... So they all are their own thing. But there are game systems we're refining but each of them are intentionally, thematically, how the world feels, is very very intentional. And for TESVI we know how that world is going to feel, it's very, very intentional. We don't know all the game mechanics yet, right - that's something that we work our way through. But how the world feels, we know. 'Cause that's really where we start. And there are people who would say "Why isn't this like Skyrim?" Well, that was Skyrim, it's still there, go play it, it's on everything!

[plain cosmos]

Todd swears like a teacher's pet trying to be cool..

Meanwhile, I have to keep the Sailor in me locked in a trunk, because of the rules of public discord.

Kinda miss the old 40k Online days where the auto censor would just change every swear word to Methamphetamine Parrot...

That made for some interesting thread reads.

[raw grail]

Saaaaame

[plain cosmos]

In reality, I swear like an Australian and a Navy Sailor are three tots in and trying to figure out which of them let a ripper loose.

So I'm quite proud of my self-censorship.

[gaunt bear]

I’ve got something I’d like an opinion on from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

Another time Thedas and Mundus got “hooked together” was during the Third Blight (Thedas)/Daggerfall era (Mundus). In return for their aid, the Hero of Daggerfall gave the Totem and Mantella to the Grey Wardens, which they used to bring the Third Blight (||https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Third_Blight||) to a close. While the Warp in the West caused the Anumidium to vanish, it had succeeded in weakening Toth.

It also revealed something extremely unexpected: Dwemer metal was one of few things Darkspawn-proof, though nobody really knows how or why.

One famous painting was even inspired by the Anumidium’s battle against Toth: The Death of Flame, which features the Anumidium holding onto Toth’s neck just below the head and swinging it around, even slamming it into the ground a few times.

[patent belfry]

How did Therana even get to her position with a mind so addled?

[glacial scarab]

I'd imagine her madness came after she was a Telvanni Lord on the council

[patent belfry]

You'd think they'd force her to stand down lol

[glacial scarab]

It's the Telvanni they're more then likely going to have to kill her if they can.

[gaunt bear]

This was back during the Vvardenfell Crisis, right?

[patent belfry]

Have you played much TES?

[gaunt bear]

Unfortunately not, my PC wasn’t high specs back then.

But do you mind cutting through the cream cheese?

[patent belfry]

Ah, she's an NPC in Morrowind

[gaunt bear]

But was that back during the Vvardenfell Crisis?

[patent belfry]

Sure

Bethesda have only made one (excluding Arena) game in Morrowind

[gaunt bear]

Just making sure I wouldn’t go against the lore for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction idea:

During the Vvardenfell Crisis, the Fifth Blight spilled over into Morrowind/Tamriel, and House Telvanni’s “no rules” policy (and Therana’s addled mind thinking it would be a great idea to capture Darkspawn for experimentation) lead to an outbreak of the Blight among House Telvanni members, changing “Assassinate the Telvanni Councilors” into “Sanitize the Blighted Outbreak”.

[gaunt bear]

… does that mean “it’s good” or “it’s bad”?

[fathom jewel]

Lore question: Is there anything that prevents The Morag Tong or the Dark Brotherhood from exclusively recruiting and training vampires? Yes, there was one vampire in the DB in Skyrim, but you have to wonder why the bloodsuckers aren't much more prevalent - even dominating - in the assassin organizations of tamriel. It's the perfect job for them.

[abstract ledge]

also a vampire in oblivion

and the crimson scars

[patent belfry]

Have you played Morrowind or Oblivion?

[fathom jewel]

Yeah, but I can't remember any vamps being part of the assassin guilds in either. Not saying they weren't, I just can't remember. Those games were simply too long ago to remember the finer details.

[raw grail]

In the case of the Morag Tong it'd be tantamount to blasphemy I imagine

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Vampires_of_Vvardenfell,_v_II

This whole book is relevant. It's worth remembering that the Morag Tong is not just a guild of assassins - it's a government-protected, religiously significant, practically sacred organization

[fathom jewel]

Interesting. Also provides lots of clarity, especially because of the fact that since Molag Bal is the father of vamps, Dunmer are going to feel particularly hostile to vamps and incorporating them into the Morag Tong as 'special assets' is simply not going to be possible. Great find. 👍

[plain cosmos]

And several orders of magnitudes better than Bubbles and the Murder Clowns.

[sweet plume]

The Dark Brotherhood, my favorite assassin faction

[plain cosmos]

The Ordo Assassinorum would like a word.

What am I saying, no they wouldn't. They'd just dispatch an Assassin to deal with you without even issuing a written warning first.

[fathom jewel]

Reading this conversation, I'm beginning to wonder if the Thalmor have some sort of assassin's guild that reports into their intelligence bureau. It would make sense for them to have it and to have an especially capable one so that the Thalmor have a third choice beyond diplomacy and war.

[raw grail]

Iirc there's suggestions they've assassinated Ocato, and I thiiiink the Mane? Idk the source for that second one off the top tho

Maybe that was just a fan theory

Aha. UESP cites the assassination of the Mane to the Infernal City, but makes no mention of the Thalmor being responsible

I don't own the book, sadly, but for now I'll consider that part a fan theory

[fathom jewel]

The uesp lore for 4E 15 suggests the possibility of Ocato getting whacked by the Thalmor: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fourth_Era#4E_15

But it doesn't actually confirm it - just suggests it as a possibility.

[sharp lantern]

Well, we know that they have assassins in their employ, but I doubt they're an external group as opposed to just being part of the Thalmor as a group.

[plain cosmos]

The Mane thing doesn't appear in 'Primary' canon. Though the suggestion that they assassinated Ocato does.

Though given my opinion on Ocato in general, it's far more likely the mental invalid choked on too big a spoonful of beans and died, and they just blamed it on an assassin to save face.

I don't care what we're TOLD, what we see clearly makes Ocato about as competent as the Sultan in Disney's Aladdin

[fathom jewel]

Concerning the assassination of Titus Mede II: he was the last of a rather short and not terribly distinguished dynasty. His father was a colovian warlord who took the thrown opportunistically.

What I'm getting at is that Cyrodiil and the Imperial administration have not had any real stability since the end of the Oblivion crisis. This leads me to conclude that, should ES6 take place after the events of ES5, there will be no effective Imperial organization to resist further Thalmor ambitions. Cyrodiil will likely be broken up into nibenese and colovian fiefdoms and Skyrim, broken and crippled, will be drifting in the wind. If the HR kingdoms fall out and the Redguard's Crowns and Forbears begin squabbling again, there will be absolutely nothing to stop the Thalmor from expanding their territory over all of central and western Tamriel.

[glacial scarab]

We don't really know enough about the Medes to know their stability.

The Medes took control around 4E 22 and we only get information around 4E 48 (Novel) and 4E 201 (Skyrim) and even with the latest date we have no real information on the Medes other then the Great War which only tells us of military matters.

[raw grail]

That wasn't his father

We don't know who was between Titus Mede and Titus Mede II but the gap is too big for it to be a father-son relationship

[plain cosmos]

Attrebus Mede was in there somewhere, that we know.

It's also worth noting that, while largely caused because of a LACK of information about the 170 years.... The Medes have presided over as many years of 'peace' as the Septims did. Except the Septims spread that peace out over almost 500 years.

Because the Septims pretty much all sucked the big one.

[glacial scarab]

All Dynasties have sucked.

[plain cosmos]

Well, we're not super sure about the Alessians, and how long that dynasty actually lasted.

The Order sucked, but up until Belharza's death things seemed... Okish

[glacial scarab]

Alessia's reached at least 1E 1033 due to the mess of "Dragonborn Emperor" (Hestra). So her line is quite tied to the Order.

[plain cosmos]

Fair enough.

Kinda makes a case AGAINST Divine Right in TES, eh?

Though, that assumes the Hereditary Model for the Dragonblood. If you use the Blessing Model, there's no need for Hestra to actually be related to Alessia in any way.

Because the Blessing Model is basically a lazy 'Get out of thinking Free' card.

[glacial scarab]

Issue is we know Hereditary is a thing given the Remans and Septims. Just it's a TES4 thing with the amulet of kings that puts Hestra with Alessia but isn't the only thing the got touched but the "divine right" since Katariah is also Dragonborn.

Honestly It isn't really divine right because only Nords and the Akaviri Dragonguard care about Dragonborn. Imperials don't give a damn as can be seen in the games.

[plain cosmos]

Well, Karariah MAY be Dragonborn. But she also has a known Septim heir in hand through her whole reign.

Without actually knowing the ritual of the Dragonfires, it's impossible to eliminate her son fulfilling that ritualistic role while she ruled the throne.

But I should make it clear, I am a hard Hereditary supporter. I absolutely hate the Blessing Model with a passion.

[glacial scarab]

it's part of the coronation if I recall. Which makes Katariah becoming full Empress in TES2's books Dragonborn because TES4 changed nothing.

Dragonfires
"The coronation of each new Emperor is sealed when he uses the Amulet of Kings to light the Dragonfires in the Temple of the One. The Dragonfires of Akatosh remain lit until the death of the Emperor. His successor then lights them anew upon ascending to the throne. With Emperor Uriel dead and no successor crowned, the Temple of the One will be dark for the first time in centuries." - Jauffre Grandmaster of the Blades.

[plain cosmos]

We know when it's supposed to be done, yeah, but we don't actually know the ritual.

Also, if in being entirely honest, Jauffre is not a resource I would call credible. Or useful. I understand the limitations of the body of evidence, but that man is even dumber than Ocato

All of that said, I am also the source of a fringe conspiracy that Katariah was actually Barenziah and Tiber's illegitimate daughter, so she WOULD be Dragonborn in a hereditary model in that case...

But there is literally no evidence to support that. It's just me being whacky.

[glacial scarab]

He's only credible based on his position.

We don't even know if Tiber and Barenziah did anything with each other since it comes from Barenziah's book of "look I'm totally no tinvolved with Tharn now see how I totally helped against Tharn and my totally loyal husband"

Though TBF it is Oblivion where the whole Dragonborn Emperor and Dragonfires is entirely superfluous to the plot. You can easily remove it and nothing really changes.

Sean Bean smashes that amulet and Dagon invades because there's no one to enforce that Coldharbour Compact.

[plain cosmos]

Oh, absolutely. And there's a lot that dubious about the book. So you have to take it with a lot of salt.

Things like the 1000 year lifespan of Elves? Fine, great.

Summachus the Simp? Eeeh... Unlikely.

But I don't want to get too far into the reeds of 'Oblivion added absolutely nothing of value to the franchise and actively made it worse'

[fathom jewel]

THank you all for your thoughts and contributions. It definitely helps fill out the picture. Something to consider at this point:

[plain cosmos]

Because if I do so, I'm going to end up getting into trouble.

[fathom jewel]

At the end of Skyrim, Titus Mede II is dead. There is no information on a successor. Skyrim is a disaster - the province is in horrible shape, there is no High King, Ulfric is a divisive figure, and both Skyrim and Cyrodiil are burning thru manpower and resources that could instead be committed as a deterrent to any further Thalmor ambitions. Furthermore, the Falmer represent a potentially mortal threat to Skyrim, should they actually break out from their subterranean lairs.

[plain cosmos]

I can tell you what I would do.

And I can tell you what I expect Bethesda to do.

[fathom jewel]

So Skyrim and Cyrodiil at the end of ES5 are unstable and weakened. It is unknown whether Morrowind has recovered sufficiently from the Argonian invasion, the Red Year and the destruction of Vivec City to be considered strong again. If HF falls into political instability again, the entiretly of mainland Tamriel will be 'ripe for the picking', either by a very ambitious Thalmor regime or by an adventurous Akaviri tribe.

[glacial scarab]

I'd say the DLCs added stuff but base game suffers from it being all over the place with no real connection to any themes or culture of the so called "Cyrodilic heartland".

Like TES4 would still work for TES2 Cyrodiil where the Imperials as we know them don't exist (Which fits their current writing of non-existent culture which at this rate will never be fixed).

[plain cosmos]

Oh man, there's... A whole rant on culture that's recently come up in D&D that I think is important to TES (and all Fantasy settings really) but no one wants to have.

[plain cosmos]

I think anything involving Akavir falls into that cultural rant, so I'll stow it for now.

But yes. The world is going to po.

And to be clear, Hammerfell IS NOT STABLE. Nor can it be praised for its opposition to the Dominion following it's succession. Like, the Redguard, regarded as the greatest warriors on the continent, couldn't conclusively drive out a supposedly 'beaten' enemy? Either the Redguard are actually bad warriors, or the Dominion wasn't nearly as beaten as the Stormcloak fans like to claim.

[glacial scarab]

The Empire is also a weird one in terms of ingame information.

They have more Legions which Ulfric is trying to avoid getting called in as most of the Legions are in Cyrodiil and Tullius isn't getting reinforcements and the only thing they talk of Titus II is about the Great War and being Vittoria Vici's cousin. Succession is never brought up even with the plot to kill him.

[plain cosmos]

He doesn't seem concerned about it though. Which could imply that everything is already in place. Or that he's totally given up and is checked out.

[glacial scarab]

Meant more reaction as a possible succession crisis I feel could've been meantioned in guard reactions to events.

[plain cosmos]

Personally, I'd choose the Octavian route. Have his heir be an officially adopted child he signed off on just before heading to Skyrim, that is passed over by the Elder Council. Them have an ensuing succession war, which the Dominion tries to exploit by reinvading Hammerfell while the Empire is tearing it's self apart.

[fathom jewel]

Let's look at that.

The Thalmor lost an entire army in Cyrodiil, and for any nation such a loss would be a severe one. But they also had resources to draw upon from Valenwood and Elsweyr. The Redguard 'victory' in HF was, from what I can gather on uesp.net, a very very close one and also very expensive. So I think we can safely say that Thalmor strength at the beginning of the war was equal to that of the entire Imperium at the very least. The only error they made was taking on too much at once.

[sweet plume]

From what I recall it had to do with Snakes being part of the Tsaesci biology and culture, especially because Asian’s in propaganda were shown as Snakes, so it’s pretty much hitting to close to home in a way.

And considering the Tsaesci aesthetic is heavily based on the East Asia styles, you see where I’m going with this.

[fathom jewel]

I suspect ES6 will show the Thalmor in the ascendant. Their deliberate interest in exacerbating the schism between Skyrim and Cyrodiil sounds like 'shaping the battle space' to me. In fact, we may find that ES6 includes Cyrodiil as being part of the Dominion and its most recent conquest.

[plain cosmos]

Indeed. And unintentionally, Wizards of the Coast just did the same sort of thing to Orcs and Mexicans.

Which is why overly simplistic cultural parallels are problematic. It is incredibly easy for them to turn into one dimensional racist caricatures of real peoples. Especially when they're generally antagonistic elements in the setting.

[plain cosmos]

Yeah, something like that is the most likely resolution to the Civil War. Resolve it off screen by something entirely unrelated.

[glacial scarab]

Civil War I feel would probably be written off due to more Legions being sent in.

We know Ulfric wants to avoid killing Mede himself due to the reaction that would happen from Cyrodiil and the Dark Brotherhood tries to play with the Civil Wars tensions for the Mede assassination when they frame Maro's son.

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now."

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's visiting! The goddamned Emperor! And, as much as I'd like to kill the man myself, we can't risk an all out war with the Empire. We'll bide our time for now..."

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Incriminating_Letter_(DB)

[plain cosmos]

Indeed. Or the total collapse of the Empire between games.

Unless they lean into that Many Paths stupidity.

[sweet plume]

They won’t, I don’t consider it a big issue tbh. They already have one timeline to worry about.

[plain cosmos]

15 years ago, no one expected them to take a 200 year time jump either.

[proven moss]

They might skip 800 years and Tamriel is ruled by a new empire and the events of Skyrim are all but completely forgotten

[plain cosmos]

Ah yes, the '343' approach.

People weren't chuffed about our story, so we're just going to skip past the end, and the whole next chapter of history, and drop you in the middle of an entirely unrelated period.

[glacial scarab]

Skip 1000 years and just act like the Cyrodiils never existed. Complete their mess of retcons by rectonning them back out

[fathom jewel]

I suspect they will indeed show that the Empire of Man has collapsed. But I don't think it'll be that big a jump forward in time - 20 years at the most.

[plain cosmos]

I know I would have the Empire decline into civil war, with the Legion going rogue and refusing to pick a side, resulting in the various internal fiefdoms mastering their own forces to settle the issue.

The Dominion, having hoped that the Legion would fracture by the civil war, then decides to invade Hammerfell anew in an attempt to secure routes to bypass the border fortifications of the Legion before the Empire can get it's house in order with a new Emperor and armies of newly experienced troops.

I would then make the new Emperor resolve the ongoing issues by reforming the Empires politics into a sort of constitutional parliamentary system, reshaping the Elder Council into a governing body of representatives selected by the constituent states, reverse-Empireing it into a sort of confederacy.

[raw grail]

Imo it's a blessing which can be passed on hereditarily

I've never really understood the doubt toward it considering it's basically what we're told repeatedly

Not to say you can't doubt it, I just don't get it

[plain cosmos]

It's because of a single line in Book of the Dragonborn, and a significant portion of the lore communities desperate need to find Divine Intervention in everything

[raw grail]

I mean in this case even the birth of the hereditary line is via divine blessing

Alessia was blessed

Reman and Tiber probably aren't from her line either, which implies another, separate point of blessing

Not to even mention Wulfharth or us or Miraak

The Book of the Dragonborn explicitly supports both if I'm not mistaken

[plain cosmos]

We have never, once, seen the Dragonblood GIVEN to someone. We don't really know it's origin, but it has never been been demonstrated to be a Blessing, at least in so far as a Blessing is a god bestowing power or protection to something directly.

At best, BEST, we have religious stories about it centuries removed from the actual events.

And I'll be real with anyone. I trust religious stories for historical accuracy about as much as I trust a chronic liar.

[raw grail]

Do you apply that standard fairly unilaterally? It seems very high for TES to me

At that point there's a lot of things that we don't even really have a starting point on

Dismissing religious myth as nothing but leaves us very, very much in the dark

If that's the way you operate that's fair, but it would explain why it's hard for me to get your perspective

[plain cosmos]

Yes, I do. In fact, it's a direct result of my Anthropological background, and no Myth can be taken as truthful.

Some contain elements of particular historical events, but in most cases these exist to lend credibility to the myth rather than being accurate reflections of them. The only real value they have in a historical context is in gaining understanding of what people at the time they were extant, believed.

[raw grail]

Then I do think we're just approaching this from fundamentally different places

[plain cosmos]

Did Alessia exist? Yes. Did Akatosh draw his blood from his chest and gift it to her as a symbol of their union? Almost definitely not, especially given the artifact supposedly made in that act predates Alessia by centuries.

[raw grail]

How does that interact with a world in which these myths have power, and the gods in these myths are real?

[plain cosmos]

That is a later religious retelling of whatever Alessia did, designed specifically to reflect the beliefs or agenda of the people who developed it.

The power of myths is heavily overplayed by the Lore community, especially in the flagrant misuse of the term Mythopoea. Myths do NOT shape reality, or change the past. Doing that requires immense and directly forceful magical power, not simple belief structures.

If Myths were as powerful as many in the life community pretend, then regions of Tamriel would regularly undergo massive shifts as mytho-historical narratives change. They don't. It requires specific applications of magic to impose those already established perceptions on reality instead.

You effectively have to MAKE reality conform to your bias, rather than it doing so naturally.

[raw grail]

For some examples relevant to the conversation, how does that interact with:

• Dragonborns absorbing other Dragon souls?
• Dragons calling AKHAT Bormahu (father)?
• our blood opening a door made for Reman?
• Martin being able to absorb a bunch of dragonborn souls to apparently achieve "apotheosis" as Kurt puts it?

[plain cosmos]

How is that relevant? It just means that you are a Dragon in a human meat suit. And that has clear, biological effects

The Akatosh being 'Father' simply implies a direct familial lineage. Nothing more.

[raw grail]

Interesting

[plain cosmos]

The consequence of all of this being, Alessia was bad ass and MADE the covenant.

The impmicatjo. Being that Akatosh as sgiven greater agency later by Akatosh cultists.

[raw grail]

This is very irrelevant but I'm also very curious what your take on the Dawn Era in general is

It seems like it could be interesting through that lens, and very different to my understanding

Sorry that I'm bouncing around a lot, I've just got too many thoughts going

[plain cosmos]

It's ok, I've been there. In fact, I am most of the time.

The Dawn Era is, at least by my interpretation, the period before the imposition of (mostly) strict linear time on Mundus. Because of this, it's... Got a lot going on

[raw grail]

How do you reach that conclusion despite the unreliability of myth?

[raw grail]

Okay. Can't swear. Whoops

But feeeelt

[plain cosmos]

Because it's supported by more non-mythical sources. The dating of Adamantia, the testimony of various spiritual agents, and the observable state of Mundus. We also have non-mythic inquiries which COULD be unreliable, but serve as at least a semi-scientific investigation on it.

A general problem I have with the communities interpretation, however, is that all myths are true because of the Dawn. But to reach that conclusion, they have to A: misrepresentat what an A-temporal system would work like, and B: flagrantly misrepresent what Mythopoea is and what it does.

In the second case... Mythopoea is Myth Making. It is a real concept, and really happens. It doesn't change reality, however, but instead is a descriptor for the development of myths. How they start, how they spread, how they are shaped and in turn shape the perspectives of the people who share them, etc.

So while the Myths of the Dawn amongst mortals are likely the result of Mythopoea, that doesn't necessarily make them accurate. They are a reflection more of the cultures in question than the actual reality.

The second problem is, the Community tends to slap a whole bunch of extra baggage onto A-temporal that it doesn't actually carry.

A-Temporal simply means 'Without Time'. Now, even this is really an inaccurate description of the Dawn, because it would technically only reflect the EARLIEST Dawn, before Akatosh. What we really generally mean is Non-Linear Time, but even then it's not what is typically represented.

The Lore Community most often interprets this as a sort of Plurality of Agents sort of dynamic. So you have multiple instances of different versions of the same Agent, all interacting and competing forwards and backwards.

But that plurality is not inherently part of non-linearity.

[raw grail]

I interpret it more as a...

What seems like contradiction as to the state or action of a particular agent

All of it happening at once, no clear cause and effect per se

I base this heavily off of Tuttle's description of Dragon Breaks (which are a return to the Dawn) and something to do with LKHAN dying repeatedly, and stuff like that

Ofc, the lack of causality makes the birth of AKHAT weird

I'ma see if I can find the LKHAN quote I'm thinking of cuz I realize I forget the source

Ik I found it eventually last time this happened but it was annoying

[plain cosmos]

If we define the Dawn as 'Non-Linear Time' then yes, a Dragonbreak would likely qualify as a return to the Dawn.

The issue stems the Plurality of Agents.

Non-Linear doesn't suddenly mean there's more than one copy of an individual. It simply means that agents (individuals) are not bound to a linear (single direction) flow of time.

[raw grail]

I think it does result in kind of like

The "appearance" of plurality as we're not used to looking at things this way

"one person that can go multiple directions simultaneously? Sounds like multiple people to me"

[plain cosmos]

The result of this would be Agents being able to move in different directions along their own timelines, at different speeds. So you could have Boethia being in 1482 while Standar is in 906 at the same time.

The natural result of this mobility would be that if you don't like where a timeline is going, you can go back and change your choices to change its course. However, that creates an added problem where different agents can be at different points on entirely different tracks

[raw grail]

Great now I can't even find the dragon break source either

Today's not going well in that regard xD

[plain cosmos]

It's ok, I recognise the quote.

Anyway, Plurality of Agents would mean that a particular agent can be at multiple places on either a single timeline, or multiple timelines, at once.

But that's not a given. In fact, based on non-linear entities we have seen and interacted with, it doesn't seem to be the case. They are present on a single track and point at a time.

The complex part comes from multiple non-linear agents interacting with eachother. Agent A may not like where something's going, and go back along the track to change a decision and veer to another, while Agent B continues on the track as before. You don't suddenly create another Agent A.

[raw grail]

Omg finally
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/leamon-tuttle-loreseekers-podcast

[plain cosmos]

Convention, or the end of the Dawn and the imposition of Linear Time, effectively sets the track and direction of all agents. It doesn't eliminate extraneous ones, but instead snaps everyone into a single track, direction and speed from that point onward.

Of course, that doesn't mean that everyone was on the same track, at the same point, or moving at the same speed when that happened.

So for many, this jarring experience could he both immensely confusing, and downright contradictory to everything they were experiencing.

Hence the wildly conflicting accounts and perspectives that seemed to be already present on day 1.

[raw grail]

Hmm. That is a little different from how I imagine it

Well

Hm. Idk, ig it's not that different. Like, to reiterate briefly to the best of my ability, non-linearity doesn't result in one agent appearing in several times/places, so much as being able to freely travel from one time/place to any other time/place

Like if they were endless roads with endless connections between them. You're not on every road at once, but are freely capable of traveling from any point to any other

[plain cosmos]

Along their own timelines, yes. And where you interact with other agents your roads intersect, basically

[raw grail]

Okay. I can see that then, that makes sense to me

[fathom jewel]

Truly, a confederacy where all the nations/tribes agree on fixed, defined borders, reject war as a means of settling differences and leave internal affairs to be settled by the afflicted nation would be ideal.

[plain cosmos]

Unlike us, however... We're talking about things that don't perceive time the same way. So, unlike the Doctor and Rever who constantly have to compare notes to see where on their own timelines the are, the Et'Ada would know inherently and be able to perceive inherently.

So, it's something that's hard to really imagine in an intuitive sense, even if it's how it would most likely work in an inherent sense.

Because ultimately, our monkey brains developed to find food and detect predators. Not understand complex non-linear temporal dynamics.

It's like trying to comprehend 'Nothing'. Our brains aren't actually capable of understanding what Nothing would really be.

[plain cosmos]

Too ideal. Which is why I'd inject a little more... Political maneuvering and stacking the deck, to keep a reasonable amount of narrative range and believability.

Like a seat on the Elder Council for the Legion, who are loyal to the Emperor. And one for the major economic institutions of the Empire, all of which are based in the Imperial City, the fief of the Emperor Himself. Enough nuance to add optimistic progress, with a twinge of pragmatic potential for corruption.

[fathom jewel]

Interesting that you bring these things up. My understanding is that the human brain has evolved to be extremely good at recognizing patterns. This is why we're not good at all at understanding nonlinear phenomena and events. We can model them mathematically, but I can tell you from direct experience that the modeling is quite imperfect (though it can still be useful in computational solutions.)

[plain cosmos]

Pretty much. Pattern recognition has several strong survival elements which are probably why we are so good at it. And it's probably a big part of what ultimately helped push the development of our brains. But sometimes patterns work in unintuitive ways to us, that become extremely difficult for us to conceptualise ourselves.

[fathom jewel]

Also, about 'nothing' - that's a fascinating subject. Take the vacuum of space as an example. Thru Einstein we know (and it's been scientifically verified) that mass warps space. This is why we can see stars that should be just over the horizon of the sun - the mass of the sun bends/warps the space around it and the light from those stars follows the warp. Also, Hawking theorized (and his theory was confirmed by others thru measurements and observations) that Black Holes would not grow beyond a certain size or even retain the matter they absorbed, as that matter was inevitably radiated back out from nearby space as microwave radiation - in other words, the vacuum of space around a black hole would be warm. SO: we now know by confirmed theories that the 'nothing' of space can be bent and warmed up. Pretty cool, and also fundamentally incomprehensible to our primate brains. 🙂

I fully realize, by the way, that my last two contributions above are 'off topic.' It's just that when you raised these subjects during the conversation, you hit on certain things that intrinsically fascinate me. Sorry if I'm derailing the chat, that is not my intention.

[plain cosmos]

No worry, it helps emphasise how intuitive perspectives and accounts of things are heavily skewed by our perspectives, and aren't entirely reliable.

A similar, more mythic example is the idea of a Global Flood. The idea shows up in dozens of ancient mythologies.

Intuitively, the presence of such a myth would seem to suggest that it happened. And that all of these mythic cycles arose out of that event.

However, there is literally zero evidence of a global flood. In fact, it's physically impossible, there's literally not enough water in the inner solar system to reach even the lowest point indicated in any specific myth. So what gives?

Well, that's when you have to dig deeper. Some of the myths can be traced back to earlier versions (the Biblical Flood, for instance, is very clearly a variation on the Mesopotamian Flood Myth, which appears in Gilgamesh). Others appear independently, but at different times. China's flood myth doesn't appear until over 1000 years AFTER Egypt's, for instance, though there is no evidence that there is any cultural influence between them.

We can then look at the types of locations these sorts of myths developed in, and spread out from, and identify commonalities. In this case, all Flood Myths we have been able to trace, trace to peoples living in river valleys. River valleys, that FLOOD. Therefore, the most probable explanation is that similar, though different experiences, led to the development of similar mythologies.

So deeper understanding and accounting of the data points leads to a more well founded explanation, despite the initial intuitive one. It just takes a lot of leg work.

But all too often, we let the intuitive explanation be the end point. And the TES Lore Community is especially bad for this, in recent years.

A prime example is of the erosion of the Left-Handers. One source indicates that the Yokudan word for Elf, and Enemy, have the same root. It therefore posits that when they came to Hammerfell, the Redguard called the Elves of the region Enemy, an the association stuck. It assumes Enemy is the root, and they applied it to their current Enemy (Elves), creating the association between their last enemies and Elves.

Intuitively this makes perfect sense. The Left-handers, therefore, weren't Elves but rather just other Yokudans who were the enemy.

However, if you pick at it, it starts to have problems. And because we seek a comprehensive, accurate interpretation, we HAVE to pick at it, we can't settle for the intuitive explanation.

Intuition is great for knee jerk reactions. It's terrible for critical examinations and truth determinations. But understanding peoples TENDENCY to rely on it, also helps to understand why they react or engage in behaviours in a particular way when presented with particular things.

Woof. Ok, that was a bit of a ramble.

[fathom jewel]

LOL! That was a fun read, actually. Many thanks. 🙂

To be honest, your thread contribution brings something else to mind which will be another wide deviation from the board topic space, but this time I'll 'bring it back home' at the end. About flooding:

[plain cosmos]

Specifically to the Left-handers, the evidence we have would more strongly support the opposite conclusion to the growing 'they weren't Elves' perspective. The one that fits the evidence better, is that the Yoku word for Elf morphed into their word for Enemy.

[fathom jewel]

THere is a hypothesis floating around that many of the Great Flood myths may stem from an actual event in the region of the Black Sea towards the end of the last Ice Age. They hypothesis conjectures an Ice Dam blocking off the Bosporus and/or Dardanelles, leaving the Black Sea cut off from the Mediterranean and thus at much lower water levels, with the surrounding shoreline area inhabited. An eventual break in the Ice Dam flooded the Black Sea to its current levels and quite rapidly, creating the foundational event for many of the Great Flood myths amongst the peoples in the area (who fled in all directions.) Though I have plenty of doubts about the hypothesis, there actually is precedent. Look at the Great Salt Lake in the USA. It is apparently a remnant of Lake Bonneville, an inland sea larger than any of the Great Lakes of today that spread over a very large area of the American West. It was, it seems, created by an Ice Dam somewhere in Idaho which broke several times as the last Ice Age ended, and there are large areas to the West along the Columbia River basin that show badly scoured rock formations which suggest a massive flood flowing to the Pacific, carrying lots of hard detritus (sand, gravel, dirt, boulders, etc...)

[plain cosmos]

Oh, I know that one very well 😛

[fathom jewel]

This is something that BGS could exploit concerning events surrounding the Red Year. So much seems to have happened (and all of it dreadful) that one would think we would start to see books about that era appearing several hundred years later in ES6.

[plain cosmos]

Yeah, there's a lot of narrative threads they could pull to expand things.

[gaunt bear]

Just be careful which thread they pull. They don’t want anything unraveling.

[plain cosmos]

But I suppose my deeper point is basically...

We shouldn't instantly accept the first explanation that comes to mind about things. Any time we are presented with new information, or a new perspective, we should examine it critically.

How does this conflict or support other information? How would this actually work? What is the source? Etc.

TES, more than many settings where your information is delivered matter-of-fact from the devs to the player, should be examined in the same way as we examine OUR world. But using the information from TES directly.

It should be subjected to all the same scholarly and academic tools we use in the real world, rather than just regurgitating intuitive ideas or in-universe statements. Because we are just as much scholars of Tamriel as the characters who wrote the fictional sources in the games.

You know. When not clearly ranting on the outside about how we (or mostly I) hate particular things

[unkempt tide]

Please keep the channels SFW

[dark palm]

My bad sorry

[gaunt bear]

https://tenor.com/view/hand-gesture-oopsie-sorry-gif-12147271

[plain cosmos]

Public notice. I rescind my criticisms regarding ||Ithelia departing for a world without magic not making sense. She specifies magickA, not magic, meaning only a very particular type of magic||.

The rest of my criticisms stand.

Let it never be said, I cannot be corrected.

It just doesn't happen a lot 😛

[gaunt bear]

If nobody minds me talking about it, I’ve got another thing from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction I’d like to share:

—

In my work, I say that Alduin broke “through the sky”, and into Thedas, in/over what is now Skyhold. Also, it was at that point that the high priests of the ancient elves gathered “to cast their seal to hold back the sky”. Not only that, the seal was designed to prevent the Dovah from “blotting out the sky and flooding the land” using the Thu’um”.

But ever since then, the seal has been deteriorating at a steady, yet geological, scale until the opening of the Breach, which reduced it in strength by 25%, while still keeping it intact enough for Maxwell (my inquisitor) to seal the breach and reinforce the remaining 70+%, but it’s not enough to prevent the Dovah (and Alduin) from, slowly but surely, regaining their quasi-divine powers.

And because TLD (did I get that right?) is also technically a Dov with a joor’s heart, a similar thing is happening to him, but his infallible moral compass (at least my Dragonborn) prevents him from using the Thu’um for evil.

—

So, what do you think?

[upper field]

Makes me wonder if ||she'll|| be a foot note after ESO like poor Jygalaag.

[brisk perch]

Well... ||one of the prologue lorebooks implies that they know she will leave, but also that she might be replaced/mantled by the numinous paravant. It is heavily implied that we are the numinous paravant. I.E. she might end up as an obscure prince that doesn't really play an active role in the story, but might have been there all along.||

[fathom jewel]

Now that you mention it, you'd think Ithelia and Jygallag would be at drawn daggers constantly.

[proven moss]

Jyggalag probably just thinks that someone like Ithelia is deluded. Like a gamer playing a linear storyline thinking their choices matter

[fathom jewel]

Wait: Jyggy wants to impose Order to the level of absolutely sterile non-randomness. Ithelia contradicts that directly. I have to believe that when the Daedra have parties, a three way fight between Ithelia, Jiggy and and Sheo can happen at any moment.

[plain cosmos]

It would have been 2 way until recently anyway.