#elder-scrolls-lore

1 messages · Page 5 of 1

uncut hatch
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There could be more, but I do believe that there's no Mer there.

plain cosmos
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We didn't even get a fleshed out 150 years for the Mede Dynasty

sweet plume
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I mean if this is a whole new continent a LOT OF LORE is going to have to be made

uncut hatch
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I also see no reason to doubt the four major powers of Akavir being the most prominent, even if some lesser races may have a presence.

sweet plume
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And I don’t even think they are ready to tackle that yet as it is.

uncut hatch
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Going to Akavir suddenly would be... bad.

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Has to be after this arc is wrapped up if ever.

sweet plume
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I wouldn’t say bad, because really I’m down for new races and not the conventional ones either. It comes down to personal preference in the end.

plain cosmos
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Plenty of other races already in Tamriel

uncut hatch
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I personally feel that suddenly switching gears and abandoning the story you've set up is bad writing.

plain cosmos
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Imga, Centaur, Minotaurs, Goblins, possibly Lilmoth (if they survived somewhere) Lhamia

uncut hatch
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"Hey here's the Thal- PSYCH LET'S GO TO AKAVIR!"

sweet plume
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And I also said in the distant future, like when they’ve pretty much finished with Tamriel

uncut hatch
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When we're dead. SCkittydead

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ESO will get there eventually. >:)

sweet plume
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Thing is I don’t even know if ESO would tackle it.

uncut hatch
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It won't. I'm just joking.

plain cosmos
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I COULD see going to Akavir, after, like... TES11

sweet plume
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Considering ESO is about Tamriel’s Interregnum more so than what Akavir is doing.

sweet plume
uncut hatch
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All of it happens in one year. 🙂

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I hate that so much.

sweet plume
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No way they let us go to Akavir anyway in ESO, Pyandonea is more likely from what’s been said.

plain cosmos
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Oh, wait...

uncut hatch
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RIP Terical.

plain cosmos
sweet plume
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Speaking of which it’s been said the devs of ESO can be allowed to see Pyandonea

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At least IIRC

plain cosmos
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I.. am not optimistic

edgy rivet
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I'll see all of it...except beneath the ocean. Cause swimming is hard*

plain cosmos
sweet plume
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You need more Optimism in your life, it’s unhealthy from my experience to cast constant doubt

plain cosmos
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I'm a millenial. My optimism ended with Y2K

edgy rivet
plain cosmos
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I was promised an apocalypse where we could ride around, Mad Max style.

sweet plume
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Gen Z Is me, 1998

quiet remnant
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I could see another expedition to Akavir as a dlc some day.

sweet plume
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Personally again As much as I like the races of Tamriel, I really feel you should take that risk of going with new races when the time comes

uncut hatch
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I still think ESO is gonna add the Maormer as a playable race at some point.

sweet plume
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Pyandonea is on the table so whenever that happens is when that will happen

uncut hatch
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I mean, they added a dude in Blackwood that'll change you into one for 10 minutes...

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Gives me the impression they've got plans for something.

quiet remnant
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They added Orcs with Morrowind and it worked.

plain cosmos
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Indeed.

sweet plume
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Yeah but by that point after Daggerfall they were seen as Equals and not lesser to Khajiit and Argonians as Citizens

quiet remnant
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Because they created a kingdom... again.

sweet plume
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Yup

plain cosmos
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Start with Minotaurs and Imga, being accepted by the Empire and Dominion respectively.

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Then Goblins.

sweet plume
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Minotaurs as a playable race is a tough one

quiet remnant
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Minotaurs are huge and don't speak.

sweet plume
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They are already big and juicy swole

uncut hatch
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Minotaurs won't happen because armor models.

quiet remnant
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Thank Akatosh
@uncut hatch

plain cosmos
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Nah, just don't let them wear helmets.

edgy rivet
plain cosmos
uncut hatch
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Alessia gave birth to one.

plain cosmos
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They were driven out by religious radicals who tried to exterminate non-Human races in the Empire, and now live on the fringes of civilisation as little more than tribals

quiet remnant
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Minotaurs have Aedric blood, do they not?

plain cosmos
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Partially, it seems.

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Depends on how you view Morihaus

sweet plume
plain cosmos
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Indeed

sweet plume
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Man Imagine if Minotaurs were still around serving the Empire

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Would you mess with the Empire then?

edgy rivet
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Probably not but that would be interesting.

quiet remnant
plain cosmos
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Minotaur Centurions serving in the Legjon

uncut hatch
sweet plume
plain cosmos
uncut hatch
sweet plume
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I actually do think it would be possible to bring Minotaurs back into the Empire and Civilization as a whole if someone would just communicate.

plain cosmos
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Even Trolls seem to at least be capable of some level of integration. Even if it's only domestication

uncut hatch
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Orcs already get mistreated on the daily and you think minotaurs would be accepted back into the Empire. 😭

quiet remnant
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@uncut hatch They should have eradicated the Centuars as well! Abominable abominations those are.

sweet plume
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Second Era Orcs have it better during Covenant Days

uncut hatch
plain cosmos
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Though, they may also be totally intelligent, if that note in Oblivion is anything to go by...

sweet plume
uncut hatch
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If you EVER talk smack about centaurs again in my presence, I will send you straight to Dagon.

edgy rivet
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Wait Centuars are a thing?

uncut hatch
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Yes.

plain cosmos
# sweet plume They are

If I had my way (which I know no one cares about but I'll say it anyway) the Kamal would be a civilisation of seasonally marauding Frost Trolls from Akavir.

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Imagine Hunic Frost Trolls, riding whooly Rhinos.

quiet remnant
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Who will take up this holy crusade? Love and Mercy! Do you still think me mad?

sweet plume
sweet plume
uncut hatch
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They've been mentioned post-Daggerfall and have a card in Legends.

plain cosmos
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It would explain how they disappeared into the mountains and his, if they effectively blended in to the feral troll population.

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As for Centaur, they are mentioned in the High Isle for ESO, though not seen.

sweet plume
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They definitely exist but ESO has yet to add them, Jehanna area would probably be the chance along with Balfiera Isles

edgy rivet
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Wasn't sure, my knowledge of ES isn't as extensive as WC.

uncut hatch
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ESO had all of Valenwood and didn't add Imga. 😐

sweet plume
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They were cut early in development

plain cosmos
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I would just ignore all of Valenwood in ESO...

sweet plume
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From what I recall.

quiet remnant
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@uncut hatch The jungle goblin bros who pretend they're high elves?

sweet plume
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If you can’t tell Terical hates that the Bosmer aren’t the ones he read about

plain cosmos
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More, I hate that they aren't at least as interesting as the ones we read about.

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Retcons are fine, as long as they are at least as good as what they replace.

quiet remnant
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@sweet plume Perhaps the scholars were simply incorrect or perhaps wood elves are lame.

plain cosmos
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So lame.

uncut hatch
edgy rivet
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The name Wood Elves is.... kinda meh(IMO their appearence is ok).

sweet plume
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I mean is it so much a retcon or simply the scholars behind it are just misinterpreting the culture?

plain cosmos
uncut hatch
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Either way, I understand why ESO didn't add them.

edgy rivet
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🦍

sweet plume
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Time restraints among other reasons

uncut hatch
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But I can't elaborate here.

plain cosmos
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I think the issue was largely to do with the fact that they couldn't justify the effort, for what would effectively just be NPCs

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There's no reason for them to be ENEMIES of the Dominion, so you wouldn't be fighting them

quiet remnant
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@plain cosmos I like Wood Elves but ESO is just ESO. I accept it but it I completely understand your disappointment.

sweet plume
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I just can’t be disappointed by the Wood Elf Stuff in ESO

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And no I’m not saying that because I love ESO, I legitimately can’t be.

plain cosmos
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I can. And I set my expectations very low.

sweet plume
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I am really curious where you read about Wood Elves

plain cosmos
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Similar to my issues with the Altmer, though that's mostly their artistic depiction rather than the lore added about them in Alinor.

uncut hatch
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I was just disappointed they didn't live like I imagined they did in my head.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
quiet remnant
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@plain cosmos Are they not as barbaric as the books describe? Do they not live in stone homes and wear bone armour?

sweet plume
plain cosmos
uncut hatch
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I just wanted them to live in trees and have great walkways between them and such. Not have a bunch of stuff on the ground around the tree.

quiet remnant
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I played ESO a lot but very casually.

sweet plume
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However they have barbaric aspects to them when someone threatens the nature.

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Or hell even threaten to eat people.

balmy salmon
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TES III depicted the Wood Elves with strange features, stuff like men having horns and women having black eyes.

uncut hatch
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This one Bosmer threatens to kill a Khajiit NPC for picking a flower.

quiet remnant
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@uncut hatch Kelethin? That's Ever Quest Wood Elves.

sweet plume
quiet remnant
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@uncut hatch understandable. He was going to destroy their homeland.

sweet plume
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They are passionate about there Green Pact.

plain cosmos
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The carnivorous side is downplayed, the actual impact of the Green Pact is religious and not literal, their art style is just full on nouveau

quiet remnant
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@balmy salmon Black eyes are avaliable in each game's character creation for wood elves.

sweet plume
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Disagree and Disagree, but hey that’s just me, and I wouldn’t wanna be anyone else but me.

plain cosmos
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The depiction of the Wild Hunt is an utter waste (especially since they could have at least had them transform into monster types already IN the game)

uncut hatch
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The only one I remember turns into a bear. 😭

sweet plume
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Being a Werewolf is not something the Pact likes IIRC

plain cosmos
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The rest are just black-tinted Blood Thral models.

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Like, they don't even transform. The EVIL ones are the ones that way people.

uncut hatch
plain cosmos
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And that's a general beef I have with things since Oblivion.

sweet plume
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I personally really am not that bothered by it, they make it a point it’s there in there culture and other examples.

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Dude if this is gonna go into another rant

plain cosmos
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Theres an over emphasis with things being comfortable and familiar. But if you design a world WELL, those things are natural byproducts of that design.

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Fair, I'll drop it..

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On the plus side, ESO's Khajiit are fantastic.

sweet plume
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ESO is ultimately canon to the series

balmy salmon
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I loved Elsweyr in ESO. It quickly became one of my favorite corners of Tamriel.

plain cosmos
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The fleshing out of the pre-Riddle Thar stuff was amazing, and recontextualises so much in so many interesting ways.

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Like, Boethiah, Mephala and Azura's long standing alliance

uncut hatch
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It makes me sad the Riddle'Thar Epiphany erased a lot of their religious history, but it was honestly necessary.

plain cosmos
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And Azura's motivation with the whole Heart of Lorkhan thing.

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It also at least tangentially addressed some of the Alduin problem

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The Argonian stuff was also great. And Alinor had a lot of fantastic stuff, even if the artset for the Altmer was less than inspiring.

sweet plume
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You missed Reachmen

plain cosmos
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With the Deadlands stuff, we also finally got confirmation that the Princes are actually bound by their spheres nature's, and are indeed more... Orange-Window in their morality scale.

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Yes, the Reachmen stuff too. And the Stone Orcs, and the Celestials.

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Orsinium was a visual disappointment, but the Orcs in general have been pretty solid.

uncut hatch
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ESO's depiction of Reachfolk is lovely.

sweet plume
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Oh that’s heresy! The Orcs are one of the best zones in the game. XD

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Chapter 0 before Chapters existed

uncut hatch
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Ick, I was glad to be done with Orsinium. I had to put a nose plug on under my helmet. :)

plain cosmos
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My issue is mostly on the visuals. Orsinium just... Doesn't seem that grand a fortification.

sweet plume
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To be fair it was being built

quiet remnant
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The fog has lifted, Vestige. The path before us has been revealed. It is both dark, and twisted.

uncut hatch
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My favorite thing is Kurog advocating for Trinimac worship over Malacath.

plain cosmos
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True, but... I think there's a stylistic problem in that they leaned too hard into one aesthetic rather looking abroad. All Iike, have you ever seen Indian forts?

sweet plume
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But his Mother is to blame

uncut hatch
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Interestingly, Trinimac worship persisted after the fall of Gortwog's Orsinium.

sweet plume
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Thing is Trinimac worship could have built in time if you allowed the Ones worshipping Malacath to exist in peace, not necessarily make it necessary that they bow to you as king.

plain cosmos
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Like...

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Give me a huge fortress city that feels impenetrable.

sweet plume
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I mean that looks great and all but I was fine with the one there, it was being built and given time It could expand.

brisk perch
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You can go to Orsinium in ESO, you know

plain cosmos
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Yes, I know

sweet plume
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Yeah we know, I was there.

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And he was there, and they were there, everyone was there

plain cosmos
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And it was alright, I guess. It wasn't exactly a disappointment, but like so much, it could have been so much more.

sweet plume
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We have to look at it from the perspective that they are currently finishing building the current one up and it could expand

quiet remnant
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The last time I explored Orsinium enemies still had their level appear over them.

plain cosmos
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I think, in general, there's a problem of over commiting to a singular style and using it to define everything else. Like, there's really no reason why Stronghold architecture should extend to a much larger, more permanent fortification like Orsinium. And yet, they did.

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But Fantasy in general also suffers from the problem of trying to feel big and epic... But coming in rather small compared to reality. Pelinor Field, for instance.

brisk perch
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The style in Orsinium, including Old Orsinium, reminds me heavily of High Wrothgar.

edgy rivet
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High Hrothgar isn't too bad. Minus being on a mountain.

sweet plume
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Sucks that Orc’s never have a long standing City in one place

quiet remnant
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@plain cosmos Notice the complete lack of farms around both LoTR human capitals.

sweet plume
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Orsinium is constantly being built somewhere else

uncut hatch
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They should just stop getting sacked.

plain cosmos
brisk perch
edgy rivet
quiet remnant
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@plain cosmos No way Rohan supported all those horses.

plain cosmos
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Like, 6000 cavalry seems impressive and all. But that's pretty standard for the Medieval period. And a 3rd of the Siege of Vienna

sweet plume
quiet remnant
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@sweet plume Your crimes are of no account to me. I am neither judge nor priest.

plain cosmos
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Infuriatingly, the Battle of the Red Ring COULD have been super epic, has Legends not undermined all the intrigue, heroism and complexity of the Great War.

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Just based on Numbered Legions, Imperial losses in the battle could have been as high as 150,000. Which is INSANE

sweet plume
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You do realize It’s called Legends right?

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What does the term Legends imply?

plain cosmos
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I do. And I would like nothing more than for a quest in TES6 where we track down a slanderous Moth Priest spreading lies about the Great War.

uncut hatch
sweet plume
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Neveeeeeeeer!

edgy rivet
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Malacath is a Daedra no?

uncut hatch
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I like the hero of the Great War being a Prisoner though.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
plain cosmos
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The an Empire that hadn't had to fight a real war in generations was overwhelmed by one that had spent decades preparing made perfect sense, even without the Eye.

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And that the Empire, once it got going, was able to bring to hear the dynamic vitalism of Man and prey upon the hubris of Mer to achieve some degree of hard fought victory also made sense within the context of the setting.

quiet remnant
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@edgy rivet Malacath, Meridia, Molag Bal, were all not original daedra. The first two were banished from Aetherius, and Molag was the mortal king of the Dreugh.

plain cosmos
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The introduction of the Eye just makes everyone look worse.. because the Dominion couldn't even match a basically useless Empire without some magic trump card.

brisk perch
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TMK, every one of the spirits were once a mortal, other than maybe the original Akatosh and Anu/Padomay.

quiet remnant
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@brisk perch Perhaps, perhaps not. What men value is not always what the gods look for in a champion.

edgy rivet
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🤔

raw grail
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aw

uncut hatch
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RIP

raw grail
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i think the Dominion cutting down on cannibalism and other "savage" practices makes sense narratively, but it would've been cool to actually see cannibalistic Bosmer clans and stuff which are perhaps even opposed to the Dominion

perhaps they do in fact do that and i'm unaware, but i've not heard of it. ESO is big tho

uncut hatch
raw grail
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laaame

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lowkey should've been an ability for bosmer

sweet plume
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Eh, it’s whatever for me, just knowing they engage in it and there were a few times it was gonna happen is good enough for me.

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I’m currently tired and am going to bed, night, don’t let the Skeevers Bite.

loud thunder
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I swear, the more I learn about Elder Scrolls Lore, the more I realize how slapped together it is. Underneath this complex and intricate web of Aedra and Daedra and the various histories are references to play testers from the 90s and one dude's theology degree.

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But that's like all of fantasy. If you ever take the time to read Tolkien, it's mostly Arthurian and Norse mythology with some light dunking on Shakespeare.

uncut hatch
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Things can be intricate and also named after people. But yeah, the lore was really slapped together in Daggerfall and has only become more complex as the franchise has gotten older.

topaz dome
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I think of Elder Scrolls lore as digital folk tales. Folk tales are usually created by several authors, often across many generations. We know that the Arthurian legend, for instance, was cobbled together by many authors from many sources, each building on the work of predecessors over a period of centuries. The same thing applies to Elder Scrolls lore (and other fictional universes such as Forgotten Realms and Star Wars). One of the fascinating and mysterious things about folk stories like Robin Hood and Arthur is that their narrative elements can often feel weirdly disjointed, moreso than the tales told by a single author.

raw grail
# loud thunder I swear, the more I learn about Elder Scrolls Lore, the more I realize how slapp...

i doubt this was meant to be taken this way, but just to double down on what pseron was saying about multiple authors

one dude's theology degree.
i think that people often get hung up on MK and kind of forget just how many other hands have helped mold TES. the likes of Kurt Kuhlmann, Ted Peterson, obviously Todd Howard, Ken Rolston, newer writers like Lawrence Schick or Leamon Tuttle... and those are just the other big names that get mentioned a lot. obviously we all know that TES has multiple writers, but it can be easy to lose focus of just how important that is to TES. it's like the unreliable narrator applies both in-game and irl, almost

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i really like the folk tale comparison tbh clap

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it also brings to mind someone telling a tale and forgetting the name of a character so they just make something up based on a friend or family member

edgy rivet
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I think the whole unreliable narrator isn't bad but don't rely on it so everything is vague. Thats not to say I'm not invested though, cause it has my attention(And well the mods help 😉

uncut hatch
sweet plume
uncut hatch
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We get confirmations when we see it. Hard to confirm the past is absolutely true without flashbacks or visions.

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It's not as if all of TES is some big mystery. Plenty of it has been solved, plenty of it hasn't been. Just the way it should be imo.

raw grail
shell basin
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it's like that post about the design of the platypus, as designed by creative hubbub among drunken/stoned gods.

plain cosmos
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Over reliance on unreliable narrator without attempting to emulate that body of discourse can lead to things feeling vague for the sake of being vague.

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Which becomes even worse when... It's dubious whether or not the IS an actual answer. Like the writers themselves lean into unreliable narrator for the sake of not having to actually have an answer.

uncut hatch
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Are topal island and stirk part of cyrodiil? Or is stirk Hammerfell and Topal island Elsweyr or Black Marsh?

uncut hatch
uncut hatch
edgy ivy
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Is it true that the entire universe is a dream

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This can’t be right

uncut hatch
edgy ivy
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Thank god

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If that were true, it would destroy and ruin the elder scrolls for me

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Well you said yes but no

uncut hatch
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It is called the Dream, and there is a Dreamer. But those are more titles than anything.

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It was created by a Godhead who cannot do anything but watch. It is his "dream."

edgy ivy
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So he doesn’t exist in the elder scrolls universe

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He just sees it?

uncut hatch
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He does in a way? Have you ever heard of CHIM?

edgy ivy
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Nope

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I’m pretty new to the lore. I’ve played Skyrim and I’m currently playing oblivion for the first time

uncut hatch
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I guess the best way to explain the Dream is drawing a parallel to the simulation theory.

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Not a perfect parallel, of course, but it has a similar vibe.

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The Dream means nothing, ultimately. People are still people. Who they are, what they say, what they do -- it all matters.

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Doesn't matter if it was created by someone outside your own existence.

edgy ivy
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It’s still a real world

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Basically

uncut hatch
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Precisely. A world with living, thinking, feeling people.

edgy ivy
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Nice

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What is your favorite race/province?

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Just curious

uncut hatch
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I'm quite fond of Dunmer.

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As painfully basic as that answer is.

edgy ivy
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Ahh so morrowind would be your favorite province?

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Sorry I’m still new to these things

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My favorite race is the argonians

uncut hatch
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Morrowind is geographically fascinating. I would say it's one of my favorite provinces, yes.

edgy ivy
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Black marsh seems very interesting to me, although I don’t think there is an elder scrolls game that takes place there

edgy ivy
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In morrowind?

loud thunder
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My theory is that the "dream" is the game world of the Elder Scrolls itself and that it's all one big meta joke.

The reason the Dwemer stopped existing is because they realized they existed in a fictional world.

edgy ivy
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I’ve never seen a province that has two different lands

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Only one is morrowind

uncut hatch
edgy ivy
uncut hatch
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A theory with many holes.

edgy ivy
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The game I mean

uncut hatch
edgy ivy
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Oooh nice

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I heard there is a different continent from Tamriel, has there been any mention or any elder scrolls game that took place in that continent?

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Akavir, interesting

uncut hatch
edgy ivy
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I see

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What I’m interested about though is Akavir

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I see lore videos pop up about it

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I do have to say though. The elder scrolls lore has the most interesting lore in a game franchise

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Fallout lore is right behind it

pastel sorrel
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Anu dreams of the Aurbis just as possibly someone else dreamt of his reality. And at the end someone may dream a new reality from within this one, the process of Amaranth.

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The dream doesn't always need the dreamer. That's where CHIM and such some in.

edgy ivy
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Interesting thanks for pointing that out

zealous juniper
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They should nuke morrowind

brisk perch
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Too late, volcano and meteorite already destroyed most of it, and what was left was ravaged by Saxlheel

gaunt bear
edgy rivet
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Sure, that'll end well.

plain cosmos
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Let's be real here. The effects of the Red Year would have been global.

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Even on the low end, the impact of Baar Daub would have been in the gigaton range, vaporizing everyone within 100 kilometers and kicking so much ash into the air that it would have caused global temperature drops for years. And that's BEFORE setting off a volcano the size of Yellowstone (at the low end)

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That isn't just 'Sucks to be a Dunmer' stuff, that's civilisation ending.

grave sundial
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Yellowstone has erupted 4 times now, right? And yet I don’t see a burning, ash-covered wasteland.

I think people online grossly exaggerate how an eruption from Yellowstone would be.

gaunt bear
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You also got to think in “geological scales”, for the times Yellowstone erupts.

zealous juniper
uncut hatch
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Yellowstone erupting would not cause a global apocalypse, but there would be noticeable changes to the global atmosphere and living conditions in a widespread area surrounding Yellowstone itself would be devastating.

grave sundial
edgy rivet
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I'd argue we need more details the Red year at least in Morrowwind but this is a world with Magic and well superatural stuff so....yeah.

Edit: I'll be back tomorrow, 😴

uncut hatch
uncut hatch
# edgy rivet I'd argue we need more details the Red year at least in Morrowwind but this is ...

I do too, but I do not expect them.

One thing in Skyrim that always bugged me was the Great Collapse. We're provided an insignificant amount of weak theories about what caused it, but there's no evidence to support any of them. It's pure conjecture. It's a bit frustrating because it's a mystery that could have been fascinating to unravel, but it feels like a rushed excuse to exclude Winterhold (and thus a sixth major city) from the game.

gaunt bear
sweet plume
uncut hatch
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Riften in ESO is interesting to me for a similar reason.

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We get to see it before it all burns down and has to be rebuilt.

sweet plume
uncut hatch
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In ESO, you can have Mistveil as a player home. 😌

sweet plume
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Proudspire Manor is also in ESO as a home

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Ngl I am expecting all familiar Skyrim Homes to be made homes

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When Whiterun eventually comes that house to the side will be on sale

uncut hatch
glacial scarab
uncut hatch
grave sundial
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Has anyone ever explained why Skyrim has no Mages' Guild or Fighters' Guild? I like the Companions well enough, and maybe the College of Winterhold a bit too, but having two entirely different warrior and mage factions (at least when compared to Oblivion and previous games) feels a little bit jarring.

Not particularly bad, per se. Just something I noticed that I feel I have to nitpick.

glacial scarab
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Mage's Guild is gone

uncut hatch
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Mistveil is an arbitrary name given to the southernmost estate in Riften. In ESO's time, Mistveil was in a different spot. By Skyrim, the rebuilt Jarl's palace became Mistveil.

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Because the Mistveil in Skyrim was constructed in the 4E 100s.

glacial scarab
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Mistveil Manor is an arbitrary name to the biggest mansion on the south side of Riften. Scale is why it has no remains in TES5 as the cliffs are closer to the city in TES5 then ESO

Though ESOs Riften has the problem of base game and it has no central area for leadership. It more then likely would've been where the Fighters Guild is just it shouldn't be like TES5s version either a different looking castle or some jarls longhouse as there's alot of time between ESO and 4E 98

glacial scarab
# grave sundial Has anyone ever explained why Skyrim has no Mages' Guild or Fighters' Guild? I l...

The Novels and College of Winterhold do give information of what happened to the Mages Guild post TES4. Was dissolved and replaced by the Imperial Synod and College of Whispers Faralda in Skyrim should have a Lecture where she talks of them.

Fighters Guild just has a loading screen saying they have no presence in Skyrim. Lore wise they're just mercenaries so they'd fit anywhere just had no story role in TES5 so they get a loading screen.

grave sundial
#

The Oblivion Crisis sure changed a lot of things.

glacial scarab
#

Traven did mess up quite badly tbf. Going after Necromancers who are a legal magic in Cyrodiil and a Tamriel wide Demon invasion happens .

uncut hatch
#

The entire city burned down in the Fourth Era.

#

It was intentionally built smaller, with more fire resistant material, and more fortress-y.

glacial scarab
#

Mistvel Manor isn't in the city.

The keep just used the name

uncut hatch
#

Yeah because the manor was gone by the 4th Era.

glacial scarab
#

Due to scale. This sort of thing happens since you wouldn't be able to fit it between the city and the cliff

uncut hatch
#

Would it really be scale or simply ESO's zones all being a bit different from previous appearances geographically?

#

Riften in ESO is bigger lore-wise.

glacial scarab
#

Every game is on a different scale. And ESO goes different scale for certain zones.

#

ESO is on a larger scale to TES5 a

image.png image.png
#

I think TES5 has more buildings but ESO is more spread out.

uncut hatch
#

I'm not really referring to scale as a game standard either.

#

It's just a fact that Riften used to be bigger lore-wise.

#

So the cliff stuff is just... game difference Ig.

sweet plume
#

All we know is that ESO was in development before Skyrim came out, so naturally somethings would end up not being 1 to 1

uncut hatch
#

Yeah ngl Riften's appearance in ESO is kind of strange all things considered, but that's explained by it being a base game zone.

#

And so they probably didn't really take Riften's lore into account beyond the appearance it has in Skyrim.

glacial scarab
#

ESO is also a MMO so you'll get MMO gigantism.

I mean it's like a 1000 year gap plus the game is scaled down from a lore version. A lot can happen and a lot can be destroyed.

uncut hatch
#

I mean the fact that the overall size and shape being so similar isn't accurate to the lore.

sweet plume
#

I mean eitherway Riften does feel bigger in ESO even with The downscaling aspect compared to Skyrim’s Riften

uncut hatch
#

All of the cities do though.

#

That's not really what I'm trying to say.

edgy rivet
#

To be fair the Skyrim cities are small ish but that was the 2000s early 2010s size of cities in open worlds back in the day.

raw grail
uncut hatch
#

It's such an easy to overlook piece of lore.

raw grail
#

Then, in 4E 129, the people had finally had enough. With their numbers, they were able to temporarily overhwhelm [sic] the city guard long enough to set Hosgunn's Folly on fire with the greedy Jarl still within. As the fighting recommensed [sic], the fire spread through the city unchecked. By the morning, the people had emerged victorious, but not without great cost. Most of the city was now in ruins and many had died.

It took five years to rebuild Riften into the smaller city that it is today. And even though over fifty years had [sic] passed since then, it still has yet to fully recover. Some believe it will never achieve the level of affluence it saw at the beginning of the Fourth Era, but there are a few who still hold on to the hope that Riften can return from the ashes and become a center of commerce once again.

#
  • Most relevant excerpt
raw grail
grave sundial
#

Seeing this story makes me long for a Riften expansion mod. Or something in CC.

raw grail
#

Maven and another Riften NPC whose name I forgot are allegedly the ones to have started the meadery, but it's already a Tamriel-wide thing in ESO somehow

uncut hatch
raw grail
#

Black-Briar Mead

uncut hatch
#

It's not a thing in ESO.

raw grail
#

Skyrim paints this picture of Maven being a cutthroat business woman who came in and established a meadery that ended up so successful that it took still-recovering Riften back to being economically relevant (even as individual citizens suffer for it)

raw grail
uncut hatch
#

The Black-Briar family exists and were still influential, but there is no Black-Briar Meadery.

raw grail
#

As well as

#

Why are you in a rush to get back into Borderwatch?
"I've got two shipments of Black-Briar Mead still in the fortress. If I have to wait much longer, it'll skunk before I deliver it to Gideon.
I only meant to stop at Borderwatch to fill out a customs form. Then … all this happened. It could ruin me."

  • Calixto Tunifus
uncut hatch
#

I'd argue its an oversight in that regard then. The meadery does not exist at all in Riften. I'd take that at more value than dialogue.

raw grail
#

As well as

#

Why are you in a rush to get back into Borderwatch?
"I've got two shipments of Black-Briar Mead still in the fortress. If I have to wait much longer, it'll skunk before I deliver it to Gideon.
I only meant to stop at Borderwatch to fill out a customs form. Then … all this happened. It could ruin me."

  • Captain Jimila
glacial scarab
#

Well it only rules it out of being in Riften. They in theory could still have one just not in Riften

raw grail
#

They could even have one in Riften that wasn't put in the game

raw grail
uncut hatch
#

And since the meadery isn't there... and contradicts with Skyrim lore, you're left with two options:

a) Oversight.
b) Business fell apart but was eventually re-established by Maven.

raw grail
#

well I do think it's an oversight

glacial scarab
#

Well they are in the Rift at the very least. Could be a thing they were in the Rift and something happened between ESO and before Maven moves it back to Riften.

#

Though ESO does have Cropsford as a place and has a food named after Raven Rock

#

Seyda Neen was full Nostalgia though.

uncut hatch
raw grail
#

That's fair

#

I mostly disregard it too tbh. I think it makes Maven cooler anyways

#

(hate her as a person but she's badass and well written, I mean)

uncut hatch
#

Or you can use the convenient "it fell apart' explanation, and Maven was 'inspired' by her ancestors.

uncut hatch
#

Got too much lore it confused them.

raw grail
#

Haha

uncut hatch
#

I just think the small errors like that are funny.

#

Like Bolli using the wrong name for his wife in dialogue.

#

Now you can create a conspiracy!

#

It's especially funny they messed it up on the line he responds with if you accuse him of sleeping with Haelga:

"I have no idea what you're talking about. I'd never sleep with anyone besides my good wife, Drifa."

#

Makes me wonder if they messed up the lines or the person. Like if Bersi was originally supposed to be the recipient not Bolli.

sweet plume
# glacial scarab Seyda Neen was full Nostalgia though.

Everyone knows this, there explanation I believe in game was that it was built as a Trading Post for the Gold Coast Trading Company with Permission by Hlaalu I think it was? Which explains the Imperial Architecture, of course, but yes it was still a decision made for Nostalgia purposes.

#

Honestly I would have been upset if it was just there and no explanation was given.

#

Of course explanation or not it did miff some people

shell basin
#

Bolli's cheating. But so is Nivenor. Evidently this is a case of "saying the wrong woman's name at the wrong time"...

And if you get in Bolli's good books (delivering an item for him in his mini-quest), and he becomes a "friend", you can take some of his stuff, and even sleep in his bed... which is also shared by Nivenor...

"Dangit, Nivenor, ANOTHER boyfriend? WTF.... oh, Dragonborn, it's you. Should have guessed."

heady hatch
#

Here's a canon lore fact: In all the art & in-games textures Argonians doesn't has nipples. For that, this likely debunks the ol' mammary glands theory then?

I'm just going to leave this here (3 tweet thread): https://twitter.com/Clyde_BlueSnake/status/1648596845738831872?s=20

K. Clyde BlueSnake (@Clyde_BlueSnake)

Fact about Argonians: Despite mods & the theories of the breast on Argonians. In canon so far, Argonians doesn't exactly has nipples. Source? Daggerfall, Morrowind, the vanilla texture files from Oblivion & Skyrim #TheElderScrolls

Twitter ·
loud thunder
#

Counterpoint: Snilk

unkempt tide
#

A reminder that Discord is open to anyone above the age of 13, let's please keep it appropriate

royal coral
fervent forge
#

If the Hist allow them to

#

The metaphysical form of Argonians is dependent entirely on the will of the Hist

#

Like I said before, the Hist may give Argonians certain shapes to better associate with men and mer

raw grail
# royal coral The real question though: Do Argonians molt?

short version: yes, but perhaps not all Argonians do

long version: iirc there's been one source which talks about an Argonian shedding as well as an earlier dev post which says not to expect them to. i think that what Gumball says is one of the most important things to consider here: the Hist have an absolutely ridiculous amount of control over the physiology of Argonians, and Argonians are very diverse because of it. we already know that Argonians are capable of changing sex, have wildly different shapes, can change how they give birth, and all sorts of other very extreme changes and points of diversity. one example where this seems to come into play that one might not expect it to: Argonians generally don't have hair. Red Bramman, an Argonian pirate, is said to have gotten his name from his red hair, and is shown in Legends art to have a tuft of hair-like stuff on top of his head. this could just be weird feathers, but considering the other stuff the Hist can apparently change about Argonians, i don't think it'd at all be surprising if it were hair. realistically, our understanding of the limitations and development of Argonians is pretty limited. it's hard to say we know much about them for sure

#

i'll find those sources. give me a few

#

Does Argonian skin provide natural protection? (08/15/01)

This is something that has been discussed a bit, but I'll touch on it again. Because of their physiology, Argonians do have some natural protections. However, their hides aren't an "armor," exactly. Sure, it's a lizardlike skin, but not all lizard skin is as tough as alligator skin. Think of the Argonian skin as more of a snake's skin (no, they're not going to be shedding it :p). It offers some protection, but it's certainly not as thick or durable as actual armor.

  • Mark Nelson

What items are we looking for?
"Keepsakes. Jewelry that Anais had made from my hatching shell and scales I lost during moulting.
You know, now that I say the words out loud, it sounds kind of strange for someone to have kept my discarded body parts. Is that a common practice?"

Tell me more about this amulet.
"Anais had it made from one of my scales. One that I lost during my first moulting. It's in the jewelry box.
I thought I had fond memories of this place, yet watching that young Argonian has stirred up some unsettling emotions."
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Walks-Softly

Online:Walks-Softly

Walks-Softly is an Argonian member of the Thieves Guild who is initially met as Quen's Guild contact during the Giovessen Skull Heist. He is adept at mingling and blending in with various people as well as being known for his impeccable fashion sense.
The dapper argonian is one of the survivors of the recent Iron Wheel raids on the Guild and has...

heady hatch
raw grail
#

i have also noticed that it's a widely overlooked fact

#

ultimately i think the answer is just that Hist made Argonians to be in the rough shape of humans KS_AniShrug there's no support for the hist sap idea besides a few maybes from dev posts. even then, we walk back into the whole "Argonians are morphologically diverse" thing: Argonians in general being one way doesn't actually rule out the possibility for some Argonians being another way

uncut hatch
fervent forge
raw grail
#

tbf i personally think that the idea that the Argonians forced a Daedric Prince to close portals to his infinite plane of oblivion filled with an infinite number of Daedra is just a misunderstanding of the fact that Martin closed the portals

#

chances are they were mid-invasion, then suddenly all the gates closed, and they went "WE WOOOOON" and assumed it was their fault

fervent forge
#

I don't think they made Him do it, I believe it was the daedra commanders

raw grail
#

my opinion on the matter stands

fervent forge
#

So just disregard the An-Xileel Daedric resistance?

raw grail
#

the fact that the Argonian we hear it from backs down as soon as Martin was mentioned makes me especially dubious that they're actually correct about having forced the Daedra to close all the gates

fervent forge
#

Not all of them, just the dominant Black Marsh gates

#

And these were only Daedric lieutenants leading those forces

raw grail
# fervent forge So just disregard the An-Xileel Daedric resistance?

no! rather, i'd suggest that we acknowledge that the An-Xileel and Argonians likely performed much better than many other provinces during the Oblivion Crisis. we know they were called back to Black Marsh before the Crisis began, we know that MK and allegedly Kurt link this directly to the Oblivion Crisis, and we know that the Hist can power up the Argonians. the only thing that i'm doubting is that the Argonians scared the Daedra into closing gates. i do fully believe that they closed plenty of gates in about the same fashion that the Hero of Kvatch did: going in, killing a bunch of Daedra, and removing the sigil stone that maintained the connection

#

however, i think that Black Marsh's gates closing all at once was Martin's doing, with the Argonians misunderstanding who was responsible. it seems remarkably similar to the Thalmor claiming credit in Summerset, imo

#

for those who haven't read the novels, here's the excerpt which we're talking about:

||"Yes, but that was ending when the Oblivion crisis happened. Look, even you have to admit that if Mehrunes Dagon had won, if Martin hadn't beaten him -"||
||"Martin and the Empire didn't beat him in Black Marsh," Glim said, his voice rising. "The An-Xileel did. When the gates opened, Argonians poured into Oblivion with such fury and might, Dagon's lieutnants had to close them."||
||Annaig realized that she was leaning away from her friend and that her pulse had picked up. She smelled something sharp and faintly sulfurous. Amazed, she regarded him for a moment.||
||"Yes," she finally said, when the scent diminished, "but without Martin's sacrifice, Dagon would have eventually taken Black Marsh, too, and made this world his sportground."||
||Glim shifted and held out his glass to be refilled.||
||"I don't want to argue about this," he said. "I don't see that it's important."||
||"You sounded as if you thought so for a second there, old friend. I thought I heard a little passion in your voice. And you smelled like you were spoiling for a fight."||
||"It's just the wine," he muttered, waving it off.||

#

sorry it's spoilered line by line. formatting is weird

fervent forge
#

I do think it's very plausible that those positions could have been overrun if facing a concentrated force empowered and directed by the Hist--you already detailed the strategy that functioned with very small strikes and more or less singular infiltration into what MD considered his central area of attack in Cyrodiil. If entire An-Xileel warbands invaded a handful of gates, I can see the daedric lieutenants making the strategic call to stem the tide if only to focus forces through another gate

#

It's certainly plausible while also lines in with the presented information

raw grail
#

i think you're misunderstanding what is being claimed by the Argonians

#

they're claiming that Black Marsh's invasion ended

uncut hatch
#

It's not plausible when you remember that the Daedra are infinite. Dagon is infinite. They wouldn't call off the invasion because they have infinite manpower.

#

The Argonians, on the other hand, are finite.

fervent forge
#

I'm not saying calling off the invasion, only that the claim of having gates closed would be plausible

raw grail
#

i think that it is more plausible for Dagon's lieutenants to have closed some gates to shift focus (as you seem to be suggesting), but i think that the suggestion is kind of moot because it's not what's actually being claimed here

fervent forge
#

They likely won several strategic battles and assaults

raw grail
#

i agree entirely with that

fervent forge
#

Yeah, no, I wasn't trying to say that the entire invasion stopped because of them

raw grail
uncut hatch
#

I agree they did in the same way the HoK did. I don't think their efforts were any different beyond simply being more successful at closing the gates themselves, whereas other provinces struggled greatly with this.

fervent forge
raw grail
#

okay. i agree with that

fervent forge
#

I'm not saying that they stopped the invasion all-together, but they did have a greater advantage than most due to being argonians

raw grail
#

egirlNod absolutely

#

Hist + Argonian = Victory

fervent forge
#

Yeah--not saying anything akin to the Thalmor returning the Masser and Secunda to the sky 😂

plain cosmos
#

More... Hist + disposable cannon fodder + Mind Control = "Victory"

fervent forge
plain cosmos
#

Since the Argonians ultimately had no way to actually stop the invasion altogether, and we're really just an inconvenience at best.

raw grail
#

in this case, i think victory is having your home relatively unravaged during the crisis

fervent forge
#

My root point was the level of influence that the Hist have over Argonians both physically and psychologically, originally

plain cosmos
#

Like that one annoying kid who would constantly just get in your way when trying to go through a door at school

plain cosmos
#

They just choose not to, because independent worshippers that don't require micromanagement are generally easier to deal with than literal mind puppets.

raw grail
#

wdym by harbinger? contact them after death like we do to Kodlak, or...?

plain cosmos
#

Mass Effect.

raw grail
#

ohh

plain cosmos
#

Harbinger is the first Reaper, who can just 'Assume direct control' of any of his Collector servants when he wants.

raw grail
#

ohh

#

that makes sense

plain cosmos
#

We know from the novels that a individual Hist is perfectly capable of literally controlling hundreds, if not thousands, of Argonians at once.

#

I assume there's bandwidth issues, of course... As the Argonians the Lilmoth Hist takes control of aren't shown doing any particularly sophisticated activities. It just... Makes sure they're all in the path of Umbriel, to cull

upbeat gull
#

Reminder to be careful with flashing gifs

plain cosmos
#

Fair, it was definitely flashier than I anticipated.

upbeat gull
#

No worries, just better safe than sorry!

plain cosmos
#

Ok, controversial opinion time!

#

The term Shezarrine should be replaced with Underking, in reference to Lorkhanic Avatars.

uncut hatch
plain cosmos
#

It's been used for refer to two we know of

uncut hatch
#

And I personally am of the opinion that Zurin Arctus isn't an avatar of Lorkhan.

#

It makes sense that Tiber Septim and Wulfharth would both be Dragonborn and an avatar of Lorkhan because their positions can be swapped in the Enantiomorphic Event. Some people perceive Tiber as the King and Wulfharth as the Rebel, but there are some who see it the other way. Zurin, on the other hand, is always the Observer. His position isn't interchangeable, so it would be strange for him to be an avatar of Lorkhan as well.

#

(Zurin more likely being an avatar of Magnus.)

plain cosmos
# uncut hatch No, the Underking is the same person in both situations. It's more of a conflict...

Thats not what the information we have indicates.

Daggerfall explicitly tells us that the Underking is Zurin Arctus.

However, the Arcturian Heresy, and The Second Akaviri Invasion, indicate that the Underking is Wulfharth.

It would be impossible for it to be both Zurin and Wulfharth centuries before Tiber Septim's time, which means that either they are the same person (which no one seriously entertains and would cause all kinds of problems) that the Heresy and Second Invasion are lying/incorrect, or that it is a title that is passed from one Underking to another through unknown mechanisms.

#

We also have Kirkbride's statement about who are the Underkings. Which further implies plurality.

#

With that in mind, looking at the title, it's known holders (both of whom are suggested to be Lorkhanic Avatars) and Lorkhan, however, it fits as a title.

#

Lorkhan is absolutely a chthonic god, presiding over his underworld domain following his death in multiple mythos. He is, in essence, an Underking.

#

Both Wulfharth and Zurin only have the name applied to them after their death, further associating them with this chthonic aspect of Lorkhan's mythos.

#

We don't actually know the circumstances of Wulfharth's original death either, but it could have been through some sort of similar enatiomorphic event.

uncut hatch
#

I just say that the Arcturian Heresy uses the wrong term, personally.

plain cosmos
#

Even if that was initially the case, is been codified how, as he's also referenced as such in The Second Akaviri Invasion

uncut hatch
#

No, he's not called that in the book.

#

It uses the Ash-King title.

#

But not the Underking.

plain cosmos
#

Ok, no, you are right. That's my bad.

#

Fair enough.

#

Still no replacement for that terrible Shezarrine then.

uncut hatch
#

I still say Void Ghost makes sense given MK's comment on it.

#

According to him, the Void Ghost is Lorkhan continuing to work despite being dead. What are avatars if not the machine through which a god's plan is enacted?

plain cosmos
#

Unwilling and unwitting manifestations of divine power with no particular aims or goals

uncut hatch
#

Yet they always seem to accomplish something.

plain cosmos
#

Whether that something is furthering Lorkhan's goals, if he even has any, is an entirely seperate question.

#

But I do agree, Void Ghost does work.

robust lintel
#

What happens to Elder Scrolls that go unused?

proven moss
robust lintel
#

Aren't Elder Scrolls like multiple possibilities? And with that, not every possibility is used?

proven moss
#

Oh I see

#

Elder Scrolls act sort of in accordance to quantum particles. The way they're explained to us is that the Elder Scrolls record history inerrantly but also record possible future events.

#

So basically the scrolls can be read as predicting multiple possible outcomes; then when the hero appears we have the event of the prophecy becoming true, which is then recorded by the Elder Scrolls

robust lintel
#

Sounds almost like it just records literally everything and then highlights which came to be

proven moss
#

Do you know about the Library of Babel website?

robust lintel
#

Reason I ask, I saw the talk about multiplayer lately (don't really care if it's added or not) and I was so bored so started brainstorming how multiplayer could be turned into lore. I was thinking of parallel universes (other players and their worlds) thru the use of Elder Scrolls (being that they are all possibilities, <which I thought that could also be used to explain the other worlds/players>).

uncut hatch
#

They record events.

robust lintel
uncut hatch
#

The events almost always happen, but the outcome is not determined until the event has come to pass.

proven moss
#

So simply put the Library of Babel is a website that purports to be a library of everything that has ever been written, will be written, or can be written, with a limited number of characters and with limited space (one page in the archive).

#

If you browse the library you almost certainly won't find anything interesting, just letters arranged randomly

#

But input any text into the search and the library will track down the page that contains exactly what you wrote.

robust lintel
#

Oh like a key?

robust lintel
robust lintel
uncut hatch
#

And either way, we viewed an event that already occured.

robust lintel
#

That is even more interesting actually o.o

uncut hatch
#

It can't record outcomes of future events.

robust lintel
#

That's what I meant sry I might have misworded. I kno they can't predict or choose which outcome will be chosen.

uncut hatch
#

They don't really record possible outcomes either.

#

It is a mistake to think that events prophesized in the Scrolls are fixed and unchangeable; again and again we in the Order of the Ancestor Moth have seen the prophecies alter as the future changes in response to the acts of mortals. Future events foretold in the Scrolls may be deemed likely to occur, so likely as to seem almost certain—but no event is fixed in the Scrolls until it actually happens.

robust lintel
#

No I kno, it's just like what could happen, I'm just wording it wrong

proven moss
#

Another good example of how the Scrolls "record" the future.

...of night. The Elder Scolls themselves can pierce the veil. They offer a view of the flux of Time itself. The prophet who reads the scroll sees one version of what might be. Another prophet might have a different vision with equal veracity. The price for insight is the reader's sight. He is struck blind and...

uncut hatch
#

Obligatory note that post-Oblivion lore has changed how the blindness works.

proven moss
#

The scrolls reveal what might happen, but then when something happens the alternate possibilities collapse and the Elder Scrolls record it as history

robust lintel
#

Yea I was looking more for specific information beyond just them collapsing, but I guess they haven't done much with that yet

#

Kinda like how we got to see where the souls go from soul gems, was pretty cool

uncut hatch
#

Hermaeus Mora is made from the discarded Elder Scrolls of Creation. 👀

#

Where some* souls go, yeah.

robust lintel
#

Do you think he gets all the discarded scrolls or just the ones from creation?

uncut hatch
#

I think he knows of all possibilities.

robust lintel
#

Kinda like a big boogeyman elder scroll theirself only doesn't blind you

gaunt bear
#

Don’t overthink it. It’ll burn your brain out.

robust lintel
#

What brain? 🤪

gaunt bear
robust lintel
#

I am ChatGPT, me have no brain, you just thought you were talking to a real person this whole time

gaunt bear
raw grail
#

but he is called that in this book
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mysterious_Akavir

Kamal is "Snow Hell". Demons live there, armies of them. Every summer they thaw out and invade Tang Mo, but the brave monkey-folk always drive them away. Once Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal, a king among demons, attempted to conquer Morrowind, but Almalexia and the Underking destroyed him at Red Mountain.

Lore:Mysterious Akavir
raw grail
edgy rivet
#

Plot twist akavar are beastly

uncut hatch
#

I don't believe that title was given to him until later.

raw grail
raw grail
# uncut hatch (Zurin more likely being an avatar of Magnus.)

to provide a source for this:

Magnus (Magus): The god of sorcery, Magnus withdrew from the creation of the world at the last second, though it cost him dearly. What is left of him on the world is felt and controlled by mortals as magic. One story says that, while the idea was thought up by Lorkhan, it was Magnus who created the schematics and diagrams needed to construct the mortal plane. He is sometimes represented by an astrolabe, a telescope, or, more commonly, a staff. Cyrodilic legends say he can inhabit the bodies of powerful magicians and lend them his power. Associated with Zurin Arctus, the Underking.

  • Varieties of Faith in the Empire
    for those curious, i'd highly recommend doing research on the mythic narratives surrounding Magnus and Zurin as well, although that's harder to source. Zepyhr mentioned a term earlier which should be helpful: Observer. Maimed Witness is an alternate title for the position that might make for a useful keyword

i'm also of the opinion that he's a Void Ghost tho. however, i don't think it's as relevant or important as his association with Magnus. we see foxes related to Lorkhanic symbolism fairly frequently, including as a title (see: Hans the Fox). meanwhile, Mannimarco has this little tidbit:

Mannimarco, God of Worms, the Necromancers:
"The Three Thieves of Morrowind could tell you where they were. So could the High King of Alinor, who was the one who broke it in the first place. There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Arnand the Fox or should I say Arctus?

  • Where Were You When the Dragon Broke?

as well as this from MK:

  1. Wulfharth L
  2. Hjalti O
  3. Ysmir R
  4. Talos K
  5. Arctus H
  6. Septim A
    N
    https://www.imperial-library.info/content/posts-kirkbride
#

ironically, a lot of these names are used for the same people, and sometimes multiple people

uncut hatch
#

But only he can be the Observer. And he cannot be the King.

raw grail
#

i agree egirlNod kind of feeds into why i think the Magnus relationship is more important. it kiiinda feels like the Void Ghost stuff is almost a result of his actions, rather than the cause of them

#

i am being deliberately wishy-washy there btw. weird topic

sweet plume
#

Shezzarine is cool

uncut hatch
#

Pelinal? Yeah, I guess so.

quiet remnant
#

Pelinal the Blamer, champion of Men, and though dispersed he left us a warning! Heed it!
Umaril is returned, as was foretold by the head of Pelinal to the Bull of Kyne in those days of old Cyrodiil.

plain cosmos
#

Pelinal was a genocidal psychopath deserving of rank condemnation, not hero worship

#

He was like the worst possible conbination of Achilles and Adrian de Wiart, but even crazier.

uncut hatch
#

He did what was necessary. 💅

edgy rivet
#

I don't disagree, he is definitely worthy of praise.

quiet remnant
#

Does no one remember the old tales? Saint Pelinal, the Divine Crusader of legend, Alessia's companion when she overthrew the rule of the Ayleids 3,000 years ago. Pelinal, with the aid of the gods, fought the Ayleid sorceror king Umaril and slew him. But Umaril's spirit survived, and he has now returned!

#

Ysgramor and the 500 Companions valiantly led The Return. Is he not deserving of praise?

plain cosmos
#

No

#

Praising the colonial conqueror is never a good look

edgy rivet
#

Considering how the Snow Elves were treated.... they might contest that(Snow elves is a dumb name but I digress).

sharp lantern
plain cosmos
#

Because there is only one Shezarrine, just like there is only one Nerevarine

uncut hatch
#

What if ima kodddr

pastel sorrel
# sharp lantern Because?

For one, "Shezarrine" is not a supported term for avatars of Lorkhan. It appears in the lore (official or unofficial) exactly once, in exclusive reference to Pelinal.

#

I wouldn't call them Underkings either because that's also an exclusive individual (multi-souled though he may be)

#

Just call them avatars of Lorkhan or the like, they have no special term nor need one.

sharp lantern
#

Yeah, same

sharp lantern
plain cosmos
#

On more lore forums and groups, Shezarrine is still used as a catch all term for 'Avatars of Lorkhan' and even Player Characters. And it's infuriating

sharp lantern
#

Yeah, but that's forums and the like. There you also still have people who adamantly insist that ''the Thalmor want to destroy the Towers to unmake the world''.

plain cosmos
#

Fair

edgy rivet
#

Internet forums always have their hot takes. This discord included.

uncut hatch
#

And that could very well be the ambitions of a rogue agent, though I personally doubt that excuse.

raw grail
#

MK's "Altmeri Commentary on Talos" post doesn't make reference to the Towers. Towers only come in through extrapolation upon that post: if they want to destroy the world, the Towers fortify it, so they'd ostensibly need to destroy the Towers. However, we don't know if they know that, if they have accounted for that, or anything like that. Perhaps they believe their plan circumvents it

(All assuming that MK's post is accurate and that Esbern and Ancano's allusions to destroying the world are foreshadowing in a sense)

uncut hatch
raw grail
#

Okay. I don't have a Ctrl+z so I can't restore that message

raw grail
# edgy rivet Internet forums always have their hot takes. This discord included.

Thank you for saying this, I think it's important to keep in mind. A lot of people end up focusing on the platform, but really it's just the TES lore community. No matter where you go - UESP, Discord, Reddit, BGS Forums, YouTube, even the Imperial Library - people will have different takes. Sometimes they'll be very different. All too often, there'll be people who will disregard a theory because it's from a certain platform ("classic reddit moment"), or use the fact that a theory is from an "inferior" place to promote their own theory without evidence. Hell, I've caught myself doing it with YouTube sometimes. TES is highly interpretive, and has a huge number of sources. It's worth keeping an open mind and taking in new theories and evidence. You don't have to agree with it in the end, but why not hear it out?

#

Also, I type a lot normally, but the slow mode makes me want to do it WAAAY more often. Sorry for the text walls

raw grail
plain cosmos
# uncut hatch And that could very well be the ambitions of a rogue agent, though I personally ...

I think it's probably the most likely explanation. The Altmer tend to be rather religious people, and their world view is shaped by the notion of their being trapped by the prison of the world.

When presented with the sort of power that the Eye of Magnus presents, their first thought of comparison would be unmaking that prison. It's like an apologetic instantly thinking about ridding the word of sin, or a narcissist thinking about world domination.

edgy rivet
#

Prison? Elaborate(Not snarky, just curious)

raw grail
#

According to Altmeri belief, Nirn and Mundus are a limiting prison that they've been tricked into by Lorkhan. Their religious system revolves around worshipping those ancestors who have ascended, and therefore broken out of the prison. By my understanding, the goal is to maintain the traditions of those ancestors so they may follow in their footsteps

edgy rivet
#

Sounds crazy... but at least I understand what Terical meant. So thanks

raw grail
#

the reason it's a prison is because everything used to be immortal and infinite, but Nirn and
Mundus are places of mortality and limitation

edgy rivet
#

Well the mortal part but I think the idea of a prison is kinda demoralizing if its true(I realize BGS probably was vague about it to leave interpatation).

raw grail
#

oh, it's just one mortal interpretation of reality

#

it's the fundamental split that caused the Old and Wandering Ehlnofey to go to war: the Old Ehlnofey were upset that they'd been robbed of their immortality, while the Wandering Ehlnofey were like "hell yeah, new experiences!"

#

since then, more and more interpretations have cropped up. most of the races have at least slightly different takes

#

for instance, Dunmeri religion believes that Lorkhan tricked them out of their immortality, but that doing so was ultimately for the greater good. this is known as the Psijic Endeavour. the Altmer grieve their loss of mortality and strive for the old days, while Dunmer walk right into the proverbial fire in the hopes of coming out tempered. they believe that Lorkhan's trick put a test in front of them, that struggling is how you improve, and that the goal of the test is to ascend beyond what Lorkhan himself could achieve

#

different groups and different people look at the world different ways. looking at it as a prison is just one of them

raw grail
plain cosmos
# edgy rivet Well the mortal part but I think the idea of a prison is kinda demoralizing if i...

It's all about perspective. Take the Altmeri and Dunmeri interpretations as an example.

The Altmeri view it as a prison, oppressing them and keeping them from their divine origins. Lorkhan tricked them into helping create Mundus to cruely torture them.

The Dunmer, as revealed to Veloth by the Good Daedra, view it as a crucible of change. They were stripped of their divinity and placed in the Arena so they could learn how to be better than they were before. Lorkhan gave them a proving ground to test themselves and become stronger than ever.

#

Based on what we know, immortal spirits DID give up their immortality and become bound by the system of Mundus. That's a fact. But it's the different perspectives on why and what that means that forms a lot of the ideological divisions in TES.

plain cosmos
raw grail
#

foxlaugh it happens. Sometimes putting it a different way can help sometimes anyways akkoShrug

#

Hopefully someone finds it useful

plain cosmos
#

One thing I've realised recently in delving back into real world mythologies, though...

#

Is we have much higher standards for fantasy mythos than we have ever had for actual religious mythos.

#

Like, in fantasy, we as readers don't like the explanation of X came from nothing. We need some explanation for the genesis of various powers, figures and forces.

But that stuff happens ALL THE TIME in religious mythos.

#

Surtur? Dude just appears swinging a sword at glaciers. Cain finds a village when before that he was one of only 4 humans. Ged just pops into existence from a mound of sand. Gloosecap is a mountain who just stands up, and then creates the world, including mountains.

#

Compared to real mythology... TES's mythology is weirdly clinical and clearly defined.

pastel sorrel
#

While there's still a lot of different narratives (and given the nature of the Dawn Era and mythopoeia, they might as well all be correct simultaneously), that there's the Monomyth at the core of everything goes to show something did happen that everyone's then spinning off stories about

raw grail
#

egirlNod the line between mythology and history is very thin in TES, sometimes nonexistent

plain cosmos
#

The same generally applies to all Fantasy. As in most of them, Gods and Magic are very real things. Instead of products of pre-scientific societies attempting to understand the natural world.

sharp lantern
dusk junco
#

Hi can anyone help me my followers keep wandering off am using aft.

raw grail
raw grail
glacial scarab
#

The members is 1 cut person and the other person involved in the Winterhold questline.

raw grail
#

i haven't seen that before, that's interesting!

sharp lantern
#

Estormo is also a part of it. As well as another unused NPC.

plain cosmos
#

TFW you want the Thalmor to be right...

jovial monolith
topaz dome
jovial monolith
#

I beg of you please educate me.

topaz dome
# jovial monolith Who's Muril? How have I never heard that name before

Muril is the unused NPC mentioned by Grandmaster Jauffre. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Unused_NPCs#Muril

Skyrim:Unused NPCs

This page lists all unused NPCs in Skyrim. None of these NPCs are present in the game; only those in test cells can be encountered without spawning them via console codes. Their descriptions on this page treat them as they would be if they were implemented in the game. Some of the locations, quests, and buildings mentioned in their descriptions ...

plain cosmos
#

Yeah, Topal mentions them being present on Tamriel when he sailed around it. Buuut.. there are problems with the Topal story.

#

Mostly due to the fact that our only information on it is Father of the Niben, which is... A thing.

#

Which A: has zero idea how compasses work, B: is a self admitted translation by the author himself. And C: actively backtracks on its own translation.

#

We also have the issue that.. if Orcs were present, then either the origin mythos for Orcs is wrong, or the Velothi Exodus happened in the Dawn, which its self opens up all kinds of problems too.

pastel sorrel
#

Father of The Niben is basically TES's Homer's Odyssey

#

It's an important historical work, but how literal it is is suspect at best, especially given its translation issues.

sharp lantern
#

Depends on who you speak to. It is stated that Orcs already inhabited Tamriel before the elves came over by several sources, so there definitely a precedent for it. (Sources that I can think of right now are Before the Ages of Man, the loading screen for Dra'Bul, and Father of the Niben)

#

I personally believe that the Orcs can be divided into two categories, the first being the aboriginal beastfolk, the other being the cursed elves who followed Trinimac before he became Malacath.

#

As such, I also believe that there are both elven and non-elven Orcs.

sharp lantern
# plain cosmos Which A: has zero idea how compasses work, B: is a self admitted translation by ...

RE translation: the translator does specifically mention that Topal made use of the term ''Orsimer'', which is why the translator got confused, as the term Orsimer, by the Orcish creation myth, should have only existed long after Topal's time:
'''Perhaps these were a cursed folk -- "Orsimer" in the Aldmeris, the same word for "Orc" - of a different kind, whose name was to be given the orcs in a different era.'

raw grail
sharp lantern
#

Possibly in terms of culture and upbringing, but other than that, no clue.

#

Maybe the Elven Orcs are more inclined to support notions of Orsinium and Trinimac worship, because they want to form an actual nation like the other races and venerate an Elven God.

quiet remnant
#

I believe Topal's mention of Orcs being in Tamriel is what led to the belief that Orcs are beastfolk. Don't some people believe Orcs to be highly evolved cousins of goblins instead of the Trinimac story? His description of goblins may have been applied to Orcs mistakenly.

brisk perch
#

There are also stories of giant goblinkin, that while also green are apparently not orcs. Think that was involving early fights between the Yokudans and native tribes of Hammerfell.

gaunt bear
#

Hobgoblins!

quiet remnant
#

In 'The Origin of Cyrus!' comic (page 24) the Yokudan conquest of Hammerfell is depicted and it mentions armies of Orcs although they are drawn like goblins.

plain cosmos
quiet remnant
#

@plain cosmos I was thinking Topal found different goblins before the Elven settling of Tamriel before the Malacath curse. Then after that people who were unfamiliar with the curse or didn't believe it saw Orcs and believed them to be native goblin race discovered by Topal.

#

I've been wrong before. I'm not here to argue or anything. Only to discus different sources and possibilities.

plain cosmos
#

Oh, absolutely. It could have been a misclassification, evidence of Orcs predating the most accepted date for the Velothi Exodus, a poor translation of Topal etc.

#

I just meant more that classifying Orcs as a Beast Race seems to be related to the Septim Empire, not the earlier nations.

#

Likely influenced by Tiber's legendary hatred of Orcs and refusal to accept them as a vassal state.

edgy rivet
#

Probably too late and I know its not a thing but I'd prefer Orcs not being related to Elves and what not. That may be a minority opinion

plain cosmos
#

It's incidental at the end of the day. Even Argonians are related to Mer. It's just degrees of separation

quiet remnant
#

@plain cosmos Really? Argonians as well? I suppose it makes sense. I read the Hist Trees were in Tamriel before the Ehlnofey war. Some believe the Hist Trees created the Argonians but I've only ever read that they were connected to the Hist and worshipped the trees in a sense.

plain cosmos
#

Argonians are, as far as we can tell, basically uplifted local lizards. If all life except the Hist originates with the Ehlnofey, then so would the Argonians lizard ancestors.

#

They would probably be the most distant relatives, of course, but still related.

quiet remnant
#

All mortal monsters were created by Molag Bal according to the Tribunal Temple. Is there reason to believe this is a myth? Well if he was the Dreugh King once then are Dreugh not 'monsters'?

plain cosmos
#

The Bosmer also say that monsters are a product of the Wild Hunt, so I assume it's mostly just myths

quiet remnant
#

That's reasonable. Is there anything suggesting that Argonians are closer related to the Old or Wandering Ehlnofey?

plain cosmos
#

We have no information regarding that one way or another.

plain cosmos
#

If we make some assumptions, I would say neither...

#

If we assume

A: The Ehlnofey were a class of spirits similar to what Daedra are currently.

B: Had a similar distribution of 'types' as Daedra

#

Then the Argonians would have originally come from the 'wildlife' class of minor, mostly instinctual or animalistic spirits at the very bottom of the scale.

Old and Wandering, however, would have come from the higher order sentient spirits.

quiet remnant
#

The earlier games state that Argonians are highly evolved amphibious lizards from the race selection menu. Arena also states that some scholars believed them to be somehow related to the lizard men that show no humanity.

plain cosmos
#

Indeed. Though based on ESO, it seems more likely that the 'Lizard Men's of Arena were in fact just another type of Argonian.

quiet remnant
#

They do look a lot like Dreekius.

cerulean tulip
#

Even after being into TES for years the lore still hurts my brain. I’ve come to the conclusion that nothing is canon and also everything is so you’re able to pick and choose your reality. Do y’all agree?

plain cosmos
#

Nah. If it's from a game or officially related source, like the Novels or the ESO Loremaster Archives, it's Canon. If it comes from anywhere else, it may be interesting to think about, but isn't necessarily canon.

#

OOG stuff can contextualise the intent of some of the stuff in canon sources, but that does not on its own make it canon.

cerulean tulip
#

Noted

plain cosmos
#

That said, its worth noting that I think Canon is an extremely important feature of a setting, as it gives a common framework for discussion and engagement.

#

Some people outright reject the importance of Canon, and thus view things very differently.

royal coral
proven moss
#

The best way to think about it is that in TES there is no canonical truth, only canonical sources.

#

By and large players get to decide the truth of things. And this has been something the developers have reiterated over and over again

#

The most heated debates online are often over what counts as a canonical source. Lines can be pretty blurry here, so there is a lot of room for personal interpretation.

#

Some people are more exclusionary when it comes to sources, some people are inclusive.

#

In my long time in the lore community I've seen little good spring from these fights. Better to just be clear on what sources you draw from in forming your opinions and theories so that others can judge for themselves.

cerulean tulip
edgy rivet
#

Doing too much unreliable narrator will lead to not even respecting any canon since its all well...unreliable. An extreme I don't reccomend they do.

Edit: I love that gif Guardian.

cerulean tulip
#

Yeah I agree. Some stuff has to be at least 90% trustworthy or people can just assume anything.

#

The only truly reliable source is hermaeus mora. He is definitely trustworthy and you should 100% read the black books.

proven moss
#

People definitely tend to trust or value certain sources over others. But that is really up to the individual.

cerulean tulip
#

So I decide what is canon during my playthrough

proven moss
#

You decide the truth to the source material, yes. Then online you might try and convince others you're correct.

#

Kinda like our discussion on the Elder Scrolls themselves

#

The scrolls foretell many futures. But it requires a hero to enact the prophecy to create the event.

glacial scarab
#

Sources can be turned unreliable however since due to the nature of how fluid the games are since the devs don't really want to restrict themselves and also from portrayals like we barely know anything about Colovians and the Nibenese as the only knowledge of it comes from the outdated PGE1 which for Cyrodiil was completely changed.

cerulean tulip
#

I suggest others do too

proven moss
#

I'm for one glad some people share their theories and head canon online. Where would the community be if on occasion somebody didn't show up with some crazy new theory that led to hours of discussion?

acoustic crag
#

We would have world peace?

gaunt bear
cerulean tulip
#

I stay out of the debate but I still listen to both sides

plain cosmos
#

I generally stay out of debate whenever it involves Fanfiction. Because, as I said, Canon is important for presenting a consistent body of information, and we shouldn't have to first argue whether or not X source should even be considered because we don't like it.

fickle gale
#

Who's the Breton knight from the ESO trailer that fights the 3 heroes?

plain cosmos
#

Presumably The Ascendant Lord.

sweet plume
#

That is the Ascendant Lord Yes.

glacial scarab
#

The Ascendant Lord yes. It's his armour and sword.

sharp lantern
#

Bit of a thing I thought about, but do you guys think there was any kind of collaboration or at least a connection between the Veiled Heritance on Auridon and the Court of Bedlam on Summerset?

shell basin
#

Not sure. Mehrunes Dagon was Estre's patron, though, so would he ally or even cooperate with Nocturnal, Mephala and Vile?

sharp lantern
#

Unsure.

#

I guess at the same time, Estre did make a pact with the Maormer promising them rulership over Summerset proper...

#

but still, it just seems like the same kind of people are attracted to those groups and their beliefs seem pretty similar as well.

plain cosmos
#

Direct connection? No. Though I think there's likely some connection between both, and the radicalisation of the Thalmor into the 3rd Era, as radical groups drew together in the face of Septim occupation.

glacial scarab
ember mountain
#

The lore inconsistencies between games does cause issues.

sweet plume
#

Honestly with how much there is to cover and research I would be surprised if there weren’t any inconsistencies.

upper field
#

Elder Scrolls Lore goes so deep it would surprise me if there weren't inconsistencies.

robust lintel
#

Inconsistencies are what makes Nirn, Nirn 😋

raw grail
plain cosmos
#

Vile, Mora and Bal are the main ones active on the mainland at the time.

#

With Nocturnal being heavily active in Summerset.

glacial scarab
# raw grail Three Daedric?

I forgot the name of the antagonistic group of Summerset and I don't know when I typed that. I could've been tired

raw grail
#

Ohh okay

#

I see now. I was just confused at first

coarse skiff
#

The gaunt ghostfires loom as subtle shrouds,
Smokes and shades on the biers of Red Mountain.

Arches and spires line the rock halls,
Dimly lit by the spirits of the dead.

The blood of broken hearths and houses
Runs in red rivers, blossoms in fountains.

Girdled round within walls of wit's glass
The shattered hosts slumber in cradles of ash.

But when shall they wake?
What dark crucible may kindle their souls to light?

How long beneath red-reeking clouds
Must flickering watchfires burn?

How many lifetimes of labor and lament
Will it take to seal this restless tomb?

#

Hey all - This is regarding the 'The Cantatas of Vivec'
Trying to understand this poem apparently written by Vivec - the words seem to be dramatic and filled with lament and worry

Please correct my understanding on the following

  1. I think he is referring to the War between Dwemer and Chimer in first era when he says 'The blood of broken hearths and houses'
  2. 'the shattered hosts slumber in cradles of ash' - Looks like, he is referring to Dagoth Ur (who awaken in the 2nd ERA)
  3. Then he talks about walls of wit's glass - Am assuming this is Ghostgate
  4. Finally the last para
    How many lifetimes of labor and lament
    Will it take to seal this restless tomb?
    This is clearly the worry about a certain tomb! Whose can it be!!?
plain cosmos
#

Dagoth Ur's.

#

It's basically a poem about the difficulty in actually defeating him permanently, and Vivec's search for an answer.

#

A search that eventually leads to his acceptance that the Tribunals must give up their godhood and accept the Nerevarine, if they are to win against Dagoth Ur.

coarse skiff
plain cosmos
#

Nah, I think it's more a reference to Dagoth Ur's unwillingness to die. His periodic returns tantamount to a restless tomb, with the dead not remaining within.

#

Sealing the tomb would mean permanently killing Dagoth Ur, something beyond the ability of the Tribunal, since their power is drawn from the same source as Dagoth Ur's

coarse skiff
#

Thank you. That is Interesting.
Even though Azura cursed the Tribunal that the reincarnation of Indoril Nerevar will return for revenge, Vivec is more worried about Dagoth Ur.

plain cosmos
#

The Nerevarine was just as much about defeating Dagoth Ur as he was about revenge on the Tribunal.

#

He was there to clean up the Tribunal's mess. Bringing them down was just an added bonus.

#

If Vivec had found a way to defeat Dagoth Ur without needing the Nerevarine, they could avert their own downfall.

shell basin
#

It's like in Lord of the Rings, destroying Sauron (the Big Bad) also meant destroying the Three Elven Rings (belonging to Good People - at the end of the 2nd Age after the death of Gil-galad, it was Elrond, Galadriel and Cirdan, though Cirdan was later to give his to Gandalf) as well, and the Elves were willing to accept this... it was Isildur, the man, who said no, he was keeping the One as a trophy.

Of course, the three Dunmer gods are hardly as "good" as their three Elven counterparts from LOTR. Especially not at the end, when they have turned on each other, Almalexia has gone full-on mad and killed Sotha Sil, and both had already long since neglected the maintenance of the Ghostfence: Vivec was pretty much standing alone against Dagoth by the end (indeed, he'd had to rescue the other two from the Dagoth citadels when they were captured, and their artifacts Keening and Sunder lost.)

Actually when you look at Galadriel's speech about what she would do if she took the One Ring... culminating in the "All shall love me and despair"... You pretty much get Almalexia's attitude. Mother of all, to be treated with love and reverence... or you get the iron fist inside the velvet glove. And when her powers begin to fade, she loses her sh1t.

Sotha Sil's godhood is more of the invisible, unknowable, numinous, behind the scenes type. "You cannot possibly even understand me so I'll spare you the bother of even trying". He's the one that deals with the Other World, the Daedra, forger of the Coldharbour Compact.

And Vivec, at heart, is the poet... the show-off... the egoist. "Hey, look what I can do, and you better believe it!" And yet, all along he has been the most humble of them - the one willing to muck in and work in a farmer's field... even though it retroactively became a fake humility, "Look how humble I can also be when I want to". He's dealt with some of the more mundane problems - the ash of the Mountain, the Akaviri army.

coarse skiff
lucid socket
#

.

proven moss
#

Well of course if they could have they would've done it.

#

But they had been cut off from the Heart. They needed the Nerevarine

sweet plume
#

Not real gods but individuals possessing Godly Powers

plain cosmos
#

Well obviously. That's why his attempts failed, and why he ultimately decided to help the Nerevarine.

#

The Tribunal couldn't do it on their own, because of the failures of their character.

shell basin
#

...yes, once Dagoth respawned in the Heart chamber with all seven Ash Vampires and their own connection to the Heart, the Tribunal were cut off from the Heart and couldn't get in to refresh their powers.

And when Sotha Sil and Almalexia tried, they were both captured and imprisoned, and their artifacts Keening and Sunder taken off them... Vivec, acting alone, was able to rescue them: but presumably by stealth rather than by power, since he was unable to recover the artifacts.

Just goes to show that even when you're used to using godly power, it is useful to remember how to do things the mundane way. Vivec was the only one who maintained that level of grounding in mundanity - thanks to his "humility for show" stunts - so when he needed it, it was there, and he was at least able to rescue his fellow Triunes.

Perhaps that's why, at the end, there is a bit of a difference between Vivec and the other two.

plain cosmos
#

Presumably, a year.

coarse skiff
#

did they have to go every year to renew their powers?

#

The entire saga of Vivec, Almalexia, Sotha Sil and Nereverene spanning centuries could easily be a movie or a TV series. What a lore

plain cosmos
#

As for Nerevar... There were many Incarnated over the millenia. However, only one of them could be the Nerevarine, and the others simply were too soon to fit the prophecy.

#

Only one of them seems to have even been born in the years after the emergence of the Blight

plain cosmos
#

That's the common line. But when you look at what it does, and when, as well as the testimony (albeit 2nd hand in most cases) of those who witnessed it... It seems far less vindictive, and more of a warning.

#

Even within the context of the prophecies, the Tribunal are not the target. The Nerevarine's primary function is ending the threat posed by Dagoth Ur. The Tribunal's fall is simply a consequence of that action as their power comes from the same place as that threat.

brisk perch
#

There was also not just one Nerevarine, but rather a role that could be filled by pretty much anyone that fit it and succeeded.

plain cosmos
#

There are many Incarnates, but only ONE Nerevarine.

gaunt bear
#

Emperor Uriel Septim VII (did I get that right?) might have even consulted the Elder Scrolls to find out who the Nerevarine would be.

plain cosmos
#

Yeah, to it's credit, Skyrim was the game that took the longest to single you out as the Chosen One.

pastel sorrel
#

You're told by a god who has it in their best interest for you to to think you're the Nerevarine and succeed. A god who handles elements of prophecy to boot, so of course Uriel might see what she would want him to see. The whole plot's her scheme in the first place.

#

You're also told during the main questline that you might not actually be Nerevar incarnate, but nonetheless can play the part (which is literally why Uriel sent you there anyway).

#

The whole thing's written so that objectively you don't need to be Nerevar incarnate. Everything surrounding you is subjective and circumstantial, and even all the way to talking with Dagoth Ur you can outright deny you're really Nerevar incarnate.

#

You don't need to be Nerevar. You just need to succeed.

plain cosmos
#

People overblown the ambiguity of it based on Nibani's dialogue, and ignore the entire rest of the game, AND the intent, to prop up the frankly unfounded idea that you don't need to be Nerevar to succeed.

pastel sorrel
#

Even before full-on mantling comes into play, there's still its basic motif. It's not about who you intrinsically are. It's about who you're trying to be.

plain cosmos
#

Mantling has nothing to do with it, it's Incarnation

#

And it's literally a condition of the Prophecy

pastel sorrel
#

According to a narrow surface-level reading that what you're told is exactly the truth. Rather absurd for a game explicitly geared around propaganda on multiple fronts with you just stuck in the middle trying to make things work.

#

The prophecy is a largely second-hand claim from the Ashlanders that Azura might've been involved in the creation of, or co-opted later as part of her scheming to punish the Tribunal. Of note, it never actually to pass in its entirety. The Nerevarine does not strike down the Tribunal (only definitively Almalexia, not Sil and only possibly Vivec), does not drive out the foreigners, does not unite the Dunmer. It's even brought up that the Ashlanders don't even realize the Nerevarine could be an outlander themselves.

plain cosmos
#

There are multiple conditions of the Prophecy, and characteristics of the Nerevarine, that are not achievable. The are either inborn, or fate.

pastel sorrel
#

The prophecy is no less a piece of progaganda as anything the Temple claims, it just happens to be a little more on the winning side of what happens.

#

Again, literally the point of us being there in TES3 is to be an artificial Nerevarine who does the job. That's explicitly Uriel's job for us, and reminder that Nibani is part of the tribe who upholds the prophecy and she's even telling us it's up in the air and ultimately irrelevant.

#

It doesn't matter if we are Nerevar incarnate. It doesn't have to matter. You the player can choose if you're Nerevar or not. All that truly matters is you end up fulfilling the steps of the prophecy, at least as far as Azura's revenge goes.

plain cosmos
#

And again, that point is irrelevant to the actual facts.

pastel sorrel
#

"Facts" are a rather strong word to use when it comes to TES.

#

The fact of the matter is, we're in the middle of different subjective sides with their own motivations and beliefs.

plain cosmos
#

Not only does ESO make it explicitly clear that she knows both who the Incarnates are, and who the Nerevarine will be, but there are multiple points of Morrowind you have to actively fabricate deception to justify the position that it's open for interpretation.

pastel sorrel
#

That's how TES has been since even before TES3, but definitely with TES3 and onwards.

plain cosmos
#

No, it isnt. TES is been explicitly Chosen One since TES3

pastel sorrel
#

TES has only been Chosen One for TES3, 5 and to an extent ESO.

plain cosmos
#

And TES4

#

"In your face I behold the sun's companion, that by Akatosh's divine glory may we banish the coming darkness'

#

This is a long dead argument that persists because people want it to be true, not because it is.

pastel sorrel
#

And it is not indicated in ESO that she knows who it will be. Only that she knows that ESO's time is not the time for her revenge, as taking it then would mean a death knell for the Dunmer due to the enemies at their gates and the daedric forces working right there.

#

TES3's time meanwhile is perfect, as it's a time of relative peace and the Tribunal are already on their way out and end up needing the Nerevarine rather than persecuting them. It's Dagoth Ur who's the issue then, and he's defeated in the process of cutting off the Tribunal proper.

plain cosmos
#

It's time for me to go to work, and I've had quite enough of this argument.

#

It was dead in the Forum days, and it's gotten no better since then.

pastel sorrel
#

Speak for yourself. That's all I'll end it with.

pastel sorrel
#

I'm not going to engage in a bad-faith strawman, dude.

plain cosmos
#

I'm not going to point any fingers or pass any judgement.

#

Though I think I made my position clear. Attempts to downplay the Chosen One aspect of Morrowind are, in my opinion, always made in bad faith.

glacial scarab
#

Not really tied to Emperor's more just Uriel was having the sight. Which is somewhat common but hard to tell how common given the nature of game scale.

#

The Dragonborn prophecy is specifically from Akavir so we're not getting any clear information on that.
I also wouldn't tie it to gods or princes because we do not know and gods do their own thing. Like for all we know the sight could simply not be tied to any god or Daemon (Daedric Prince).

gaunt bear
glacial scarab
gaunt bear
#

As far as I guess, it’s still in Akavir.

sage raptor
#

Is it true that Mankar Camoran and Jagar Tharn had a short but intense romantic relationship

glacial scarab
#

it's literally Uriel the same person. But TES2 was not a propohacy Uriel just sent a friend to do something and rather spiralled out of control if I recall the character creation and opening..

#

It's not. Uriel has the sight which is not something a daemon is doing. It's also unsure if TES3 was due to a vision as only TES4 is actually vision related

#

The Dragonborn prophecy is an Akaviri prophecy. Tamriel didn't hear of it until the Akaviri came over. Esbern recites the prophecy while at Alduins wall.

unkempt tide
#

Alright let's stay civil here, no need for insults.

glacial scarab
#

The Dragonborn prophecy isn't.
The Dragonborn as a thing exists before yes but we were talking prophecies were we not? Like just being Dragonborn is just having the soul of a Dragon it doesn't mean anything for having the ability to see the future which is a thing people can do without Gods and Daemons (Daedric Princes)

#

I think you're confusing different things or wording things poorly.

Dragonborns existed since Miraak but had nothing to do with the whole Last Dragonborn prophecy of the events of TES5 neither did the Dragonborn Emperor's.
The Nerevaine one existed since the first era TES3 deals with the mess that is the prophecy with quite a lot of people being wrong about it even the Ashlanders from memory.

#

The Dragon born as a whole is not a prophecy.

The Dragon hunters and Dragonborn Emperors are not tied to the last Dragonborn. They're people doing different things because there's a lot more going on with prophecies since the last Dragonborn wants the events of TES1 and 4 to happen first. Like the Akaviri somehow knew the exact events and was able to get them depicted on Alduins wall (staff of Chaos, Numidium, fall of the Tribunal, Oblivion crisis and the Skyrim civil war)

plain cosmos
#

Nah, the Dragonbornn are Dragonborn's. They all serve the same purpose.

#

Alessia was just that much of a bad ass that she managed to harness that power for something else.

glacial scarab
#

Which I said the family isn't known for as far as we know is tied to Uriel alone which only comes up in TES4 for the whole stuff with the sight. TES3 and 2 don't really bring it up because it wasn't a thing then.

We see how the Uriel was acting from how that version of the blades were acting
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Decoded_package

#

We don't know that because it came from the Akaviri.

plain cosmos
#

It's a prophecy from either Akavir, or an Elder Scroll it's self

#

We don't know if it's true origin, or even if it HAS one. Prophecies being weird and all

glacial scarab
plain cosmos
#

All TES Prophecies seem to be very accurate, in hindsight

#

Akatosh has something to do with their Genesis, but the earliest we can place the Prophecy is the late 1st era

#

While the earliest Dragonborn is late Merethic, almost 3000 years earlier.

glacial scarab
#

Akatosh created Dragonborns yes. But the last Dragonborn prophecy? The only thing we hear of it at the earliest is from the Akaviri.

#

I said the the sight wasn't a Septim family thing because it only comes up from one person.

#

It isn't? Like they've only talked of Uriel as as person able to see the future for the Septims.

unkempt tide
#

Please use ModMail if you have any queries about moderation on the server

last sage
shell basin
#

There is definitely a place for those who could have been the Nerevarine, but were not - either because the took the wrong path, like Conoon Chodala: or actually were called to the path but chose to live a life of comfort, like at least one of the other Failed Incarnates: or took the right path but were simply not strong enough, as was the fate of the most recent Failed Incarnate, Peakstar.

And thus - given that some of these were people who could, if they had made the right choices, have been the Nerevarine themselves, there is an element of choice in the hero's path. To follow the call, to answer the need, or to refuse it.

And when the dark lord threatens to overwhelm the land, and its protectors (however self-appointed they might be, and however honest or corrupt their methods of obtaining their position) are failing... then SOMEBODY has to be a hero. A lot of people want to be heroes. Many will fail. The one that succeeds is the one that succeeds, the one that history will remember.

So yes, Azura perhaps did call you... just as she called Peakstar, who didn't learn to fight when fighting was necessary... just as she called Chodala, who made the mistake of also listening to Clavicus Vile, and to his own belief that the true enemy was the Tribunal (who were all too visible and active) rather than Dagoth Ur, who was still sleeping in the Second Age... just as she called others who refused the call and chose a life of comfort.

But throw enough heroes at one dark lord, from enough different directions, and eventually the chances are that one of them will get through. Even if they only manage it because he's distracted looking at another hero elsewhere (as Frodo Baggins got through while Sauron was staring at Aragorn thinking that Isildur's Heir would have taken control of Isildur's Bane.)

Without the hero, there's no story, because there's no world for there to be a story in.

#

As for the Dragonborn of Skyrim... It's clear there have been other Dragonborns in the past - the Greybeards acknowledge that Tiber Septim was truly one, regardless of how much else of his history may be authentic or fraudulent. Emperor Reman Cyrodiil was also one.

And other "masters" of the Thu'um who were not themselves Dragonborn but could learn a word or two - not only the Greybeards, but Ulfric Stormcloak among others (and, in the past, many Dragon Priests and members of the Dragon Cult who, in death, became Draugr Overlords.) The power is there, and some have a greater aptitude for its use than others... And the Thu'um did not always win: in the battles at Red Mountain, there were Nords as well as the Dwemer and Dunmer, and many of their Tongues were silenced, and the Nords were driven from Resdayn / Morrowind, regardless of the status of Shor/Lorkhan, Ysmir, Wulfharth or whatever name that force currently went by.

Dragonborns can fail, too. But there will be another.

Who knows. Perhaps the death of Alduin is what makes it so that the Last Dragonborn will be the Last. Or perhaps they are only called the Last Dragonborn because, this being the "present day", the hero of Skyrim is the Last "for now" Dragonborn rather than the last "because there will never be another one" Dragonborn.

And the rise of Tiber Septim, and Reman before him, also shows that a Dragonborn can arise without the presence of Alduin to threaten the world. The fact that there have been no officially recorded ones since him simply means that they are rare, though not necessarily non-existent. Perhaps there have been other Dragonborns who never knew about it: never slew a dragon to steal its power, or never found themselves in a position of needing to be a hero, and lived to old age and died unknowing?

glacial scarab
#

The generic heroes of Sovengarde add to the unknown Dragonborns ("Hail, Dragonborn. That honor is also mine - to our shared birthright you'll bring new glory!"). Nordic Dragonborns don't seem to be recorded well. Miraak was understandable given the Nords reduced him to "The Traitor" but any others don't really come up but they do exist.

Also like the Last Dragonborn prophecy has a few moving parts with the dwemer needing to have made their Bionacle and then it needs to mess with time and the Chimer's mortal gods to have risen and then fallen before hand.

The prophecy never actually says Alduin would be defeated just that the wheel turns on the Last Dragonborn when Alduin awakes in the last line while the other lines are just taking of other requirements and being the events of TES1-4.

The World-Eater wakes, and the Wheel turns upon the Last Dragonborn.

glacial scarab
#

Baurus ties it to dragon blood which means any Dragonborn.

Strange. He saw something in you. Trusted you.
They say it's the Dragon Blood, that flows through the veins of every Septim. They see more than lesser men.
But we have no idea if that's having the sight or something else tied to being Dragonborn which in TES4 (which is more a TES4 issue given how things are really not well covered in that game) is the whole Dragonborn Emperor thing where people have been "blessed" by Akatosh. Later lore puts it as having a Dragon soul

The only other Dragonborn that I recall that had visions was Alessia every other Dragonborn is not talked of having visions.

hasty plank
#

Just a reminder folks, please keep all discussions civil and on-topic.

blissful arch
#

The gift the Emperors had reminds me of Dune's prescience.

#

I love that in the Oblivion intro, "You! I've seen you..."

glacial scarab
#

And the Targaryen Dragon dreams. Though theirs was alot more vague.

plain cosmos
#

Prescience was more precise than anything a Septim could cobble together.

burnt fossil
#

Who made dragonbone weapons?

#

Dragon cultist or Nords in general

glacial scarab
#

Dragon Cultist I see making use of Dragonbone equipment only after the fall of the Dragon cult and after their Dragons were killed off. As I don't see an active Dragon cult with a living Dragon having Dragonbone equipment.
Likely the Nords who rebelled as you could see Nords making use of Dragon bones and Stalhrim during the rebellion and from hunting dragons as they would make use of their bones and scales in equipment like the Tsaesci did.

So if Nords did make Dragon bone equipment it would've at least come though those who rebelled and hunted Dragons first at least on Tamriel. The issue is more when this happens as it's the Merethic Era which makes things a lot harder to accurately tell.

#

We know the Tsaesci did make equipment out of Dragons from PGE1 and some items we see in TES3.

uncut hatch
#

this question might be unanswerable

#

in ES3, are you actually the Nerevarine, or just someone who is propped up to fulfill the prophecies in order to unite the houses/Ashlanders (if not doing back path) to defeat Dagoth Ur?

#

iirc one of the wise women tells you directly that you aren't the Nerevarine, I think she means in like a spiritual sense; but since you can wear Moon-and-Star and are sponsored by Azura, who knows...

upper field
#

I think it's a thing where you either are the Nerevarine, or you become the Nerevarine.

heady wave
# uncut hatch in ES3, are you *actually* the Nerevarine, or just someone who is propped up to ...

or just someone who is propped up to fulfill the prophecies in order to unite the houses/Ashlanders (if not doing back path) to defeat Dagoth Ur?

That's... quite literally what the Nerevarine is (as far as I recall). That's the prophecy to fufill to be it. You can handle Sunder/Keening without dying, wear Moon-&-Star, you fufill pretty much all of the trial pre-reqs, the only cure in the world for Corprus only works on you, etc. I don't exactly remember what the Wise Women say but I think they're all in varying levels of doubt because so many people have tried and failed.

#

It's completely answerable. Even if you opt into the idea that you can only become the NVNE, you still end up as it by completing the prophecy. ||That aside, Azura pretty much confirms you're destined to be it at the start anyway, and the spirits of the past Incarnates put their faith into you later on, as they all admit they were wrong and you're the "Chosen"||

glacial scarab
#

From TES3's PoV you are the Nerevarine. Now if you have to "earn" it is unknown but is understandable from the mortal perspective after Morrowind has dealt with multiple fasle incarnates.

Mortals don't decide who the Nerevarine is and most people arn't working off the correct prophecy if I recall.

#

If I recall in TES3 you can see the ghosts of the False Incarnates when you get your ring in the cavern of the incarnate of at least six people. One of them is used in ESO with Conoon Chodala.

pastel sorrel
#

Every prior supposed incarnate thought they were the Nerevarine just as much as we do in TES3

#

They see themselves as failures in hindsight.

#

Again, it's worth noting that the one telling us we aren't necessarily the Nerevarine but can become it in practice is literally one of the major tribal proponents of the Nerevarine prophecy in the first place.

glacial scarab
#

They however were working off Ashlander Oral traditions which quest wise can be skipped. The only part that couldn't be skipped so to speak was the lost prophecy.
That's if I recall the main quest right since if you had enoguh fame you can skip parts or if you know how you can kill Vivec and skip most of the main quest.
Edit: the skip requires "at least level 20 and having 50 or more reputation"

high forge
#

Which one is the most agile? Khajiit or Wood Elf? As a race, not any specific person.

glacial scarab
#

I don't think TES works like that.
As that stuff is more cultural in the sense of like if I use an example of Orcs as Orcs come off as strong due to their Stronghold culture and needing everyone to learn how to fight in order to protect their Stronghold or raid other places. And Khajiit has quite a few variables given their furstocks which changes how they are physically.

high forge
#

Wait what?

#

No no no. Look. I'm not talking about which is the most well trained race due to their culture. I'm saying, at default and as part of their genes, which of the two are more agile? Wood elves or khajiit?

#

Dude, Orcs are just born big. So are Nords. And High elves are gifted in magic.

#

That's more of what I mean, bud.

glacial scarab
#

Orcs and Nords have a warrior culture that puts a focus on being big and strong. Altmer do the same for magic though they have more eugenics going on.

pastel sorrel
#

Agility is not inherent, it's trained

high forge
#

Look...

#

You all can't honestly tell me that hereditary traits don't exist in The Elder Scrolls. Come on man.

Look at racial bonuses and racial abilities.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

Orca are the biggest, high elves are the tallest, khajiit are the hairiest, dark elves can tolerate heat the best. Those weren't trained.

Physical strength and physical agility have a huge basis in DNA.

Come on man. This is ridiculous to even argue about.

plain cosmos
#

Eeeeh.

#

They have A basis in DNA, but not a huge one.

pastel sorrel
glacial scarab
#

Yeah these are cultural.

Racial bonuses and abilities are trying to reflect a races culture in gameplay way.

pastel sorrel
#

There's certainly tendencies such as magical affinity for the Altmer and larger builds for Nords and Orsimer, but "agility" is not some strict quantifiable metric

#

Both the Bosmer and certain Khajiit furstocks have lithe builds suitable for it and cultural values that encourage it, trying to figure out which one one-ups the other overall is pointless. It's like asking which ethnic group IRL is more agile, it's not really a useful question.

#

It's going to be an individual basis, not a racial one.

high forge
#

Alrighty. That makes sense.

#

I see it now.

I thought the racial bonuses are about natural talents given to them due to their race.

#

This is actually very encouraging. My favorite Skyrim character have always been my Bosmer. And I see him as one of the strongest melee fighters in the province.

plain cosmos
#

Depends on the source of the information. The game manuals and tooltips generally depict facials as inborn, inherent qualities of that race

#

But since some of it tends to change from game to game, it's kinda difficult to actually take those seriously, despite often being the only Word of God sources in TES.

pastel sorrel
#

Racials are a thing but they're not that much of a thing. Even the Altmer have non- or low-magical peasants and one of the finest mages in history was a Nord.

#

Even if you take the bonuses as they are in the games, they're typically relatively minor biases, not major boons.

#

You've still gotta actually develop from there

plain cosmos
#

Yeah, though they depiction of them in said sources (as well as general trends elsewhere) always leads to people clamoring for Racials to be more definitive.

sharp lantern
#

The trials seem far more like preparations than any actual ''trial to become the Nerevarine''.

pastel sorrel
#

We've been chosen. But is it because we're Nerevar incarnate, or because we're useful regardless?

sharp lantern
#

How is Azura an unreliable narrator to a prophecy which she stands central in?

glacial scarab
#

"They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison, first by carriage and now by boat, to the east to Morrowind. Fear not, for I am watchful. You have been chosen." - Azura

I think the prophecy itself is the Lost prophecy but the other parts are either Azura getting the person ready or something else.

plain cosmos
#

All Incarnates are Nerevar, but that doesn't make them the Nerevarine.

#

The Nerevarine is a PARTICULAR Incarnate. Whether they achieve that status or not, they are still an Incarnate. Hence the failed ones in the Cavern of the Incarnate.

pastel sorrel
#

Whether or not we're Nerevar, we fulfil the requirements of the Nerevarine in practice.

plain cosmos
#

Some of which are not achievable, and are inherent qualities.

glacial scarab
#

I mean she knew the falsehood of Chodala's "claim"

sharp lantern
#

She outright declared Chodala wasn't the Nerevarine, even.

plain cosmos
#

Thus you can't, by default, be just some rando

pastel sorrel
#

She knew the falsehood but her objection to Chodola was not that he wasn't Nerevar or something, but because it was a bad time to take down the Tribunal + he was doing the bidding of the Daedric Triad.

#

She recognizes that the Tribunal are needed for the time being. The Dunmer can't stand on their own in ESO's time without them.

plain cosmos
#

And yet Choloda was still an Incarnate.

#

Because Incarnate of Nerevar =/= Nerevarine.

glacial scarab
#

He tried to claim he was but he wasn't.

pastel sorrel
#

But by TES3, they're on their way out and it's a time of relative peace. Even with the Argonian invasion of Red Year, it's nothing compared to what could've happened another time.

plain cosmos
#

He claimed he was the Nerevarine, which he was not. He was still an Incarnate though.

pastel sorrel
#

plus Dagoth Ur needed to be dealt with

glacial scarab
#

Though I have to wonder if they claim the Nerevaine is Nerevar reincarnated then how can the failed ones also be Nerevar? Espically when you speak to their ghosts.

pastel sorrel
#

Was just about to say about that

#

It seems more like a front of sorts. The point isn't that they're necessarily literally incarnates of Nerevar, but that they failed and the successful Nerevarine can learn from them so as not to fail like they did.

#

Calling them incarnates just fits in with the whole narrative of the Nerevarine prophecy.

#

Considering the game's based around the propaganda of the Tribunal, it befits that even Azura's doing the exact same thing. She's not there to tell you the truth, she's there because she wants you to do her bidding.

#

And if a song and dance of mystical incarnation and chosen one prophecies convinces you to do it, fantastic

#

Whether it's true or not, what matters is we do the deed.

#

how very Dunmer of her to manipulate us, after all.

quasi shale
#

Where do we get a lot of the information about other race's pantheons? Namely I'm looking into the Khajiit's religious structure.

robust trout
quasi shale
#

Both I guess. What books in gane tell us, what games, etc. I'm just curious for a deep dive. @robust trout

robust trout
quasi shale
#

Ahh so it was added with ESO, that's a start. I've read the UESP, didn't even think to check where that information came from. Thanks!

sharp lantern
quasi shale
brisk perch
quasi shale
#

@brisk perch this was a great addition to what I've covered. Thanks!

shell basin
# glacial scarab > "They have taken you from the Imperial City's prison, first by carriage and no...

"You have been chosen.

So were a few others, before you, but it turned out that some of them couldn't hack it.

And some of them listened to the wrong evidence, chose the wrong path, and picked the wrong fight.

And some of them chose to reject the path altogether, live a life of comfort and ease, and die of old age.

And some weren't actually chosen at all, but queered the pitch for those who actually were, by thinking they were, and then fouling up.

You're the latest, and time's getting short. Get on with it, mortal"

high forge
#

Do you all consider the Imperial religion as Christian-like, or Pagan-like? The way the priests and citizens speak of the gods, it's as if they're talking about Talos being Jesus. At the same time, you got large statues depicting the gods as if they are Athena and Zeus.

pastel sorrel
#

Certainly they'd have more in common with Greco-Roman religions given the Greco-Roman influences. But they also use the name "Heaven" for the Imperial afterlife.

coarse skiff
#

"I would change Cyrodiil's depiction in Oblivion. While I finally ended up enjoying the game several years after its release, neither the tech or the development of Cyrod was capable of pulling off what the Empire really deserved." - - Michael Kirkbride

Wow his vision of Cyrodill seemed different. Any ideas on why he said the above?

proven moss
coarse skiff
proven moss
# coarse skiff Thank you. Interesting that he envisioned some parts of Cyrodill to be rainfores...

Heimskr in Skyrim actually makes a cryptic reference to this. After Oblivion released, Kirkbride (no longer working for Bethesda at this point) published a short explanation that Cyrodiil was no longer a rainforest because Tiber Septim changed it when he became a god. https://www.imperial-library.info/content/many-headed-talos
Later, when Skyrim released, Heimskr actually quotes part of this short document!

Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you.'"

coarse skiff
proven moss
#

He was apparently brought on for planning/establishing the lore of the game (the White-Gold Concordat was his idea according to him) but no, he didn't write any books for the game.

#

The last game he wrote for was Oblivion.

coarse skiff
# proven moss The last game he wrote for was *Oblivion.*

I see.
Skyrim's exploration of old Nord religion was non existent. Skyrim ripped away the things that made Nords so unique. It could've easily been on par with the world building present in Morrowind. The Nords had the first gods of humanity that were later adapted by the Empire. The divines came from Nord religion because the Nords were the first humans on Tamriel. Unfortunately all of that was lost in current canon.
Now they seem to have always worshipped the 8 divines as they are in modernity with the Empire. Even in Oblivion the Nords would reference their distinct religion.
Maybe if Mr Kirkbride would have been there, he would have fleshed out the religious aspects of the Nords more?

#

Interestingly, there was only one guy worshipping the gods of the old Nord Religion - Froki Whetted-Blade, who says
"Good. This is Skyrim, and we should honor the old ways. These foreigners don't even respect their own gods"
It's hard to understand how the Nords just stood around while their entire culture was taken over by the Imperials....

proven moss
#

Some of the gods do receive brief mentions, like Shor. And of course Tsun shows up.
It was Kirkbride I believe that actually confirmed who the various totem animals were that appear in the many Nordic ruins, too, since he was involved in the planning

#

But yeah, I think Bethesda pushed the Nordic gods to the backdrop because they wanted to keep the Nine Divines as a touchstone of the series that fans brought on in Oblivion would recognize

coarse skiff
#

Thank you sir. Appreciate the discussion. We hope ES6 would have focus on HoonDing and other Redguard gods if set in Hammerfell!

glacial scarab
glacial scarab
quasi shale
#

Is M'aiq immortal?

proven moss
quasi shale
#

Sadly he's unreliable as his title is untrusting lol

gaunt bear
#

He’s not a liar; he’s just really good at riddles.

prime shell
#

Question, I replayed Skyrim recently and never really noticed it before but there are numerous stories about the afterlife so I wondered what would happen to the Last Dragonborn when they died?

#

Like where would their soul end up going, and is there a place that would take precedence over all others.

upper field
#

I think being the Dragonborn means that Akatosh has dibs on your soul and you're bound for Sovengarde regardless of how many Daedric Princes make you their champion and what not.

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Of course take this with a grain of salt from me.

quasi shale
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Isn't it kinda implied that the Dragonborn's existence and fate was messed with by Mora?

plain cosmos
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Dragonborn seem bound by the same rules as anyone else. They go where they believe they will, and Akatosh has no special claim over them.

upper field
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idk Tsun seems to imply your character is welcomed to Sovengarde regardless of your race.

pastel sorrel
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Which kind of falls apart because Tsun is still there

proven moss
# glacial scarab I don't know about that because Shor was cut from Skyrim as in he was going to b...

Shor being cut doesn't contradict the eventual decision to regulate the Nordic Pantheon to the backdrop. Just shows they originally had different plans.
Anyway, I spent a lot of time looking for the source of my claim and I eventually found it. Kirkbride evidently spoke a little bit about it on Reddit, saying it was Bruce Nesmith's idea to nix the Nordic pantheon from a prominent role in Skyrim: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/vtux7z/comment/ifp4acn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

reddit
r/teslore - Is there a Nord “cultural revival” happening in Skyrim?

255 votes and 59 comments so far on Reddit

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Basically: there were initially ambitious (perhaps overly ambitious?) plans for the Nordic pantheon, but they were cut from the final product. The in-game lore explanation being that Skyrim has been heavily Imperialized over the last 600 years

glacial scarab
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I'd hesitate to call it heavy Imperialilzed because there's nothing Imperial about it other then the names, They still prefer the hearth goddesses (Freir says this in Solitude to another Priest) and Marmal referring to Mara as the handmaiden of Kyne that i can recall.
And no one ever mentions the god "Shezarr" over Shor.

Seems all they did was change a few names and that was it which is their standard for Aedra worship writing wise.
Edit: Don't know where Froki was writing wise when he was added but they could've added him later since Tullius' VA Michael Hogan and whoever did Hadvar was added somewhat later due to what we know of the differnet versions of the intro

gaunt bear
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So, basically, Tamrielic religion is a great big giant mess.

glacial scarab
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Aedric Worship generally is. Daedra get all the content while Aedra worship is just there as a background thing.

plain cosmos
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In fact, the only setting I can think of where religion isn't a mess is Lord of the Rings, and that's largely because it is explicitly a monotheistic setting with very clearly defined practices and agents.

vast ruin
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What's the main story of ESO: High Isle?

proven moss
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Beth needs to bring back the Imperial Cult as a faction

sweet plume
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If I had to guess, simply because the Aedra lost a lot of there power in Nirn’s Creation, they are just not able to do much with them beyond knowing they are worshipped.

proven moss
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Yeah, the Aedra aren't exactly conscious. Its more like they're, well, dreaming. Or ghosts. Directly interacting with the world happens just not very often, and through indirect channels

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But you can have their representatives give you quests, like prophets or priests or what-have-you

sweet plume
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They very rarely interfere in mortal matters as well.

If I had to guess, had there power not been lessened by the Creation of Nirn, they may have been more present like Daedric Princes are.

upper field
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Well...besides Talos anyway.

proven moss
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I like to think their primary mode of interacting is through their spheres

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Like Mara is love. When you are loved, and love others, that's Mara there with you.

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You can't obviously talk with her or anything. But that's her influence. When you're moved to do something through love, that's Mara moving you.

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Or if you're driven by curiousity, that's Julianos. Or if you're driven by a sense of justice, that's Stendarr. And so on and so forth

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The mortals of Mundus are like their children, so we carry bits of them with us

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That makes Mankar Camoran blind. He knows the gods are dead. But doesn't understand that they're still present

glacial scarab
sweet plume
plain cosmos
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Death is a lot less meaningful in TES than in many other Fantasy settings in general.

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Worst case scenario, if the Aedra ARE dead, it simply means they are confined to their realms, or Afterlives.

marble oar
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Am doing a Dark Elf trivia night with my ESO Guild to celebrate Necrom launching. Making the questions I noticed something interesting. The Dunmer are resistant to fire, yet they burn their dead. I bet the ones responsible for the burning are not fans of the practice lol.

upper field
marble oar
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Akatosh was able to as well. We know the will of Akatosh was made manafist three times

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ALso really felt like there should have been a splinter cell of the companions that dislike the upstart Talos as the Nord's hero and honor Ysgamor more than Talos.

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Ysgamor was the hero of Nord kind way longer

upper field
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I mean considering there's already a splinter cell with the Circle involving Hircine...

marble oar
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yeah...

glacial scarab
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Mara, Zenithar and I think Talos had avatars in TES3. I can't remember if I missed one or two but I'll have a look after doing some stuff on ESO.
The avatar of Akatosh is a bit odd in the sense it seems more like something Martin did then anything Akatosh did.

marble oar
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Well in ESO, the vestiage is imbuned with Akatosh's agency on two occasions

sweet plume
plain cosmos
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Afterlives in generally undermine the significance of Mortality and Death by rendering it largely irrelevant. If you have an eternity in an afterlife, then my basic definition what you do or achieve during your mortal life is meaningless. A finite time compared to an infinite time is as close to 0 as you can get without literally being 0.

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In TES, though, it doesn't even have the systemic limitations of, say, D&D; where your soul eventually merges with the plane of your Afterlife, or the question of Arda; where only Eru knows what happens to Human souls when they die (Elvish souls are doomed to immortality and eventual rebirth). It's explicit travel to an afterlife of your belief, with no established system for replenishment or eventual dissolution.

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This is further compounded by the issue of its core creation myth, where mortality was some fundamental shift in its cosmic paradigm caused by Lorkhan and the creation of Mundus... But which is literally escaped by death. If you die, you go to your afterlife, thus escaping the suffering if Mortality and returning to Aetherius.

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Which kinda undermines the entire Altmeri ideological crisis.

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Ultimately, Death is simply an unpleasant transition in TES, that doesn't even fundamentally dictate the conditions of your eternity. Your belief does, not your actions and the conditions of your demise.

plain cosmos
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Which fits the general inconvenience rather than binding nature of Death in TES. The supposedly dead gods can send avatars just as easily as Spirits can return from Aetherius.

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It may be tougher to come back to Mundus after escaping, but it's far from impossible.

sweet plume
quasi shale
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Dagon's Plane is damn close though.

plain cosmos
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Well, there's no real Hell in reality either. But yeah, unless you actively enter into a binding contract with one of the more unsavory Daedric Princes, it doesn't matter how horrible a person you are. You still get to go to whatever heaven you believe in.