#elder-scrolls-lore

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uncut hatch
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I don't see why he wouldn't know.

velvet whale
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What do you think would be the price he would ask for that knowledge?

edgy rivet
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I bet he does but out of all the things its probably unimportant details.

plain cosmos
loud thunder
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Arguably the one person who probably does know.

loud thunder
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What are the chances of Dagoth Ur and the Tribunal coming back? All the AI memes really have me hoping he can return.

It's implied Almalexia may return in the Anniversary edition, with her cult coming back in Solstheim.

plain cosmos
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Nah, they ded

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Their power and immortality was linked to the Heart. And it was unbound

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Cultists are one thing, but bringing them back? That would just undermine Morrowind entirely.

loud thunder
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Ok, but counterpoint... Elder Scrolls can rewrite history.

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We know this because the Gray Fox did it to unbind the curse of the Gray Cowl.

plain cosmos
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The more you go back to that, the less special it becomes.

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Not that it was special in the first place though.

uncut hatch
# plain cosmos Nah, they ded

It's a theory mostly based on the idea a character in Ghosts of the Tribunal says she's receiving dreams from Almalexia, and the Dagoth cultist claims the same but from Dagoth Ur.

plain cosmos
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Sometimes, dreams are just dreams. Especially when they come from religious fanatics

uncut hatch
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I tend to feel that way too, but can a god truly die? Their essence lives on, even if their name is forgotten.

plain cosmos
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Were they truely gods?

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Or were they parasites feeding off a gods corpse?

uncut hatch
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A matter of perspective. What makes any god a god?

plain cosmos
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In TES, there does seem to be a tangible Divine component.

uncut hatch
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Were the Tribunal lacking in this?

plain cosmos
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Individually, it did seem so. They were feeding off the divinity of the Heart, and needed to re-juice regularly.

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They weren't divine, they were just tapping into someone else's divinity on the regular.

uncut hatch
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What about that makes them not divine?

loud thunder
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Cannibalizing a deity would probably make you a deity.

plain cosmos
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They never achieved that divinity themselves. As soon as they were cut off, so too was all that power.

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They were finite beings feasting in the infinite they could never consume it entirely.

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Compare that to Mannimarco and Talos, who became gods in their own right.

loud thunder
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Maybe Azura saved them. They seemed pretty chill with her.

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Man, I want Mannimarco to become a Daedric Prince.

There isn't really a daedric prince for the undead, aside from Molag Bal and his vamps.

plain cosmos
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She is the one who, if you believe the myth, cursed all of the Chimer and turned them into the Dunmer to remind the Tribunal of their betrayal.

loud thunder
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But... isn't she dark skinned too?

uncut hatch
uncut hatch
plain cosmos
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Personally, I don't think any of the Princes did

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I think Azura told them the truth, when she said 'It is you who have done this'

uncut hatch
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Those two are not mutually exclusive.

plain cosmos
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They tried to seize divinity, and just like with the Dwemer, their actions effected their entire people.

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They didn't try to ascend, though. They wanted to rule. And in doing so, saved the Chimer from the same fate.

loud thunder
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Who do you think the Dwemer worshipped?

I have a weird thought that they were actually Jyggalag's core worshippers, and their disappearance is tied into his becoming Sheogorath.

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Imagine being a beloved god of logic and order, and suddenly losing your entire flock.

plain cosmos
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The Dwemer didn't worship anyone

uncut hatch
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I think they worshipped nothing and no one. We have things from them that said they didn't see the "gods" as any better than them.

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They were simply spirits who hardly deserved the veneration they were given just because they're older.

edgy rivet
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Or just indifferent.

plain cosmos
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Standard Elf belief in their own divine origin, but without the reverence of those spirits which remained

loud thunder
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So they were just scumbags through and through. Between that and the Falmer, they just seem like a bunch of holier than thou n'wahs who make Altmer look humble.

plain cosmos
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Nah. The Falmer thing is missing pieces

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Just like the Sarthaal story. What we know is clearly missing important details needed to understand what happened.

loud thunder
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Turning the Falmer into Morlocks seems like a pretty clear cut thing.

plain cosmos
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As Gelebor says, that came later. And he's not sure why

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We don't even know for sure the Dwemer did it.

proven moss
loud thunder
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If Yagrum and Gelebor met, would they be adversarial or would they respect each other and weep together over their lost people?

proven moss
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The full translation was provided by BGS a little while back

loud thunder
plain cosmos
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We know the Dwemer blinded the Falmer, yes. But Gelebor specifically states their current condition was something else, and happened later

proven moss
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Well to sum up, blindness was part of the agreement in sheltering the Falmer

proven moss
plain cosmos
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So, we don't know what happened, we don't know why, and we don't really know the situation that led to their current state.

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All we know is the blinding was from the start. Why, is also unknown

edgy rivet
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"Ok we'll save you guys but... you gotta be blind now. Sorry bro"

loud thunder
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My guess is that they turned feral.

Their masters disappeared, and they were left alone in the darkness with nothing.

plain cosmos
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There are a few interpretations of Calcelmo's Stone.

loud thunder
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I still don't understand why the Dwemer wanted to blind them.

Again, it goes back to Dwemer seeming to be just the absolute worst.

plain cosmos
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The two biggest ones being... The Dwemer hoped to convert the Falmer to their ideology

And the slavery was planned from the start.

proven moss
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I think it's also possible the Dwemer didn't want the Falmer to see what they were up to.
But yeah, slavery and ensuring the Falmer wouldn't reneg and leave after being taken in is the most straightforward explanation.

plain cosmos
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I'm of the Conversion perspective, personally.

loud thunder
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I'm gonna say it. Dwemer are the worst dwarves. They're a bunch of flat earth atheists with God complexes. The only thing they have on other dwarves is they can do magic.

plain cosmos
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The Dwemer were, first and foremost, convinced that the world was a lie perpetrated by deceptive agents. Their entire society was geared towards understanding and undermining that lie.

edgy rivet
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Pretty sketchy thing of the Dwemer but eh.

loud thunder
plain cosmos
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Requiring the Falmer to give up their sight, even if the intent was only temporary, would have been the first step to shifting their worldview. Take away the sense which is the most easily tricked.

proven moss
plain cosmos
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They're described as cruel centuries later.

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Though those who knew them best, Fyr and Bagarn, Don't make any mention of that anywhere

loud thunder
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Except Bagarn is biased

plain cosmos
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There's also the problem of the Falmer statue. The Dwemer clearly didn't build it, of put it there.

proven moss
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Whoops, wrong reply

loud thunder
plain cosmos
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The 'Dwemer were cruel' perspective feels very much like the usual 'The Aztecs were bloodthirsty' sort of skewed vilification of peoples who can't defend themselves because they're gon.

proven moss
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I love the Falmer Statue from the Thieve's Guild questline. It original set up the Famer to have been a Tibetan/Buddhist like inspiration

last sage
proven moss
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Dawnguard sunk that ship but oh well

loud thunder
# proven moss Dawnguard sunk that ship but oh well

I mean, aside from the cathedral, it did have sort of a Buddhist flavor with the pilgrimage and the water stuff. I also think the veil was special.

If the Falmer are ever expanded upon, I could see them going for a Tibetan monk vibe.

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Would make them an excellent counterpoint to the Akavir's Shinto stuff.

plain cosmos
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They definitely seemed to be at least partially monastic

edgy rivet
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I personally just feel bad of their circumstances(Low numbers only for them to get blinded by Dwemer and..however they turned into falmer).

plain cosmos
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Absolutely.

loud thunder
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Man, now I hope if we ever get a Hammerfell game, there are Abandoned Snow Elf Monasteries in the mountains.

plain cosmos
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But I try not to assume blame, when we're clearly missing huge chunks of the story.

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Unless it's with the Nords. Based on what we know of Nords, Sarthaal was definitely their fault, and they're just victim complexing it.

loud thunder
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I mean, Nords are a very colonialist people, coming from Atmora and stealing Skyrim from the Snow Elves and Reachmen.

It makes their "Skyrim for the Nords" kinda ironic when they're the outlanders.

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Is Atmora even still around? We never hear about it. Did it sink like Numenor or something?

plain cosmos
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Frozen, last anyone heard

proven moss
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Atmora, supposedly, froze over

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I think former dev Michael Kirkbride said it's frozen by more than just ice too

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Like it's frozen in time, or something

plain cosmos
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Yeah

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Which, could be fun to play with... But at the very least, the last expedition reported it lifeless

loud thunder
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It'd be cool (ba dum tiss) if that were expanded on.

Like, maybe dragon breath unthawed the land both in the sense of melting ice and unstopping time.

It would be a chance to bring back a lot of the weirder stuff from Elder Scrolls. Like, remember when Centaurs were a thing?

plain cosmos
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My pet theory, is the Atmorans Tongues froze time to prevent cultural change

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Their religion had been dismantled, their people were constantly learning and exchanging ideas, and were WRITING

loud thunder
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And one of their explorers went off and became a deity.

plain cosmos
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Yeah

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What's a hyper conservative social institution to do? Stop Time shout the entire continent to prevent more change.

loud thunder
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What would you call Atmorans? Because aren't they kind of the source of all men from Redguards to Nords to Imperials?

plain cosmos
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Just, Atmorans

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And the Yokudans are unrelated

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And possibly the Nedes

proven moss
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Well all men share a common ancestor in the Wandering Elhnofey. But yeah they're unconnected otherwise.

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Like Terical says, it's up for debate if the Nedes are descendent from Atmorans or natives to Tamriel

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We basically have conflicting accounts

loud thunder
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Also, like, I don't want to get too political, but isn't it a little weird that there are four human races, because it's basically Viking, French, Italian, and African.

I think Bethesda should consolidate the four human races, and maybe introduce more interesting kitschy races to play as.

I know I'll sound like a broken record, but Dremora would be great to play as. Let me a demon who found religion.

plain cosmos
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I think Bethesda should abandon Race entirely, and simply use visual Phenotypes, then develop specific cultures free from Racial restraints.

loud thunder
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I mean, I still want to play as a lizard, but I just want more silly options like that.

plain cosmos
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That's fair.

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It's not like there's a shortage in Tamriel, either.

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Consolidating Men, and Mer into 2 races with specific Phenotypes, and then building out the rest of the roster with other more distinct peoples could work for that.

proven moss
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Yeah it's weird. It's basically a fantasy world originally developed in the 90s based off a D&D game the devs were playing, so it borrows all sorts of tropes.

plain cosmos
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Men, Mer, Khajiit, Argonian, Goblin, Minotaur, Imga, Ogre, Lahmia are all established populations in Tamriel

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Dreugh as well, but... You know... Aquatic in their sapient stage.

proven moss
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I agree. Would love to play a goblin!

edgy rivet
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I do consider all the Human variants just all Humans(Same race but culture is different). I don't mind the different types of Mer(err Elves).

plain cosmos
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The Mer are basically in the same boat as the Men. Even if you accept that Racials are anything but nonsense, their differences aren't significant enough to really matter.

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Might as well just go full Species with it.

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It would open up more viability with Akavir as well. Since you could actually play up the beast Folk side of things.

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Imagine if the Kamal are intelligent Trolls, what you could do with that

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Hunnic Frost Trolls

proven moss
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I think I read or heard somewhere that in the past the developers had considered going a route like this, where you could choose a culture/ethnicity. So the possibility is certainly on their minds. Can't remember where I heard that though

plain cosmos
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I know it's skmetbing we used to talk about a lot on the forums.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
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Dunmer and Altmer would be visual Phenotypes of Mer. Like Tiger or Lion patterns on a Khajiit

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Rather than 'Races' in their own right.

proven moss
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It would allow players to make better mixed characters too, like half-Dunmer, half-Altmer. I'm all for increasing player customizability.

sweet plume
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One problem, your using big words like Phenotypes and expecting us to know what it means. XD

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Or me at least

proven moss
plain cosmos
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Fair.

edgy rivet
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Not where I'd ggo with the Mer but...Humans genetically same(Ok 99% same).

sweet plume
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Rather than the current races?

uncut hatch
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Yeah, but we know that people take the race of their mom. It's more than an aesthetic. It's a part of their literal being.

sweet plume
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Hence The Shield of Senchal Commanders Daughter being a Redguard

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Since her mother was a Redguard and the Dad was Imperial.

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However I think her skin tone was a bit on the lighter side due to that.

uncut hatch
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So I don't really know if I'd consider her a fantastic piece of evidence, though she is one nonetheless.

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(She isn't considered either race in-lore afaik.)

edgy rivet
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🤔

sweet plume
uncut hatch
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The standard has otherwise been "race of the mother, traits from the father" and hasn't been altered much. She kind of throws a wrench in that with the whole "I'm not either" dialogue she has.

sweet plume
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Bethesda has always been vague as it is

uncut hatch
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Yeah, Notes on Racial Phylogeny is just plain wrong and also racist in ways.

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But there is dialogue in Morrowind that corroborates that. And Morrowind dialogue is mostly just exposition being tossed at the player.

sweet plume
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Khajiit and Altmer Love Child

uncut hatch
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I mean they basically say it.

sweet plume
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Raz does anyway

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Ayrenn I don’t remember

uncut hatch
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Ayrenn stops herself before she continues after mentioning a dress.

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I always assumed she was going to go somewhere she shouldn't as a queen.

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"Ha. No, Raz and I met while I was traveling, many years ago. We met in Wayrest. Or was it Whiterun? Something with a "W". The story's a long one, and involves a drunken schoolmarm and a purple velvet dress. Ahem."

sweet plume
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Honestly though… I genuinely wonder if Raz and Ayrenn have feelings for each other.

unkempt tide
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Please keep chat appropriate folks. Discord is free to anyone above the age of 13.

uncut hatch
glacial scarab
high forge
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In lore, essentially as the Dragonborn eats dragon souls, he just gets stronger and stronger? His shouts becoming more potent?

Is that how it works in lore?

glacial scarab
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I don't know we'd know for sure given lack of information. But Aldiun doesn't do that ingame (which is more then likely gameplay limitations) and he was the head Dragon.
Dragonborns being the whole Mortal with the soul of a Dragon they probably have alot more control over it compared to Mortals who learn the thu'um so they don't lose their voice or well have to talk quieter given how loud they get.

uncut hatch
high forge
loud thunder
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Halfway between a babysitter and pest control.

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I have said this before, but I think Argonians and Khajhiit are the two best races in Elder Scrolls, because they just don't exist in other games. All the Men and Mer races have equivalents and histories that are very closely tied to their inspirations. But Argonians are bipedal lizards who get high off hive mind tree sap and Khajiit are Romani Furries who can either be an anthropomorphic feline or a house cat.

glacial scarab
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Argonains get get some traits from Lizardmen of fantasy being the Mesoamerican stuff that I do recall seeing in Warhammer fantasy

obtuse summit
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I think khajits are the truly unique one from TES for their physical form affected by moon phase. their lore created to explain why their form in early game similar to men/mer.

uncut hatch
raw grail
# uncut hatch Hm... this is an interesting read! I was, and continue to be, under the impressi...

Ditto. You're essentially absorbing the soul's memories, adding them to your own. Miraak shows that the absorption can also involves life energies, and that perhaps we just don't know how to tap into that. Miraak also provides several souls worth of words: his soul is worth 3 dragons, we get a soul per dragon he kills in the battle (another 3), and we get another soul for every dragon he stole frok us. To me, this seems to speak to the idea that it's just the dragon's soul being added to your own. Hypothetically, if your own soul were to eventually rejoin Akatosh, then maaaaybe I could see that idea holding up...

Except we meet two Dragonborns in Sovngarde, which absolutely destroys any chance of that in my eyes

glacial scarab
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Two? I know only of the lines of the generic heroes saying that they're also Dragonborn

raw grail
# high forge The thing is, that's how it already works in game. We eat dragon souls and unloc...

Yeah, we kinda just don't know the full extent of absorbing a dragon's soul in lore :/ right now the best you'll get on that front is speculation. On that note, I've seen one theory that you only learn one word from absorbing a dragon's soul because those memories were not made for mortal minds. You're learning the memories of an immortal, infinite spirit of time which is just a step down from a god. Perhaps your body is basically limiting how much of it you have access to in order to prevent you from going crazy. Taking in all of those memories would be very impactful. We can see the sorts of things that might happen when a mind is privy to more memories than it should be with the Argonian lady that gives us a Dwemer cube, as an example

raw grail
raw grail
high forge
uncut hatch
high forge
uncut hatch
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🤔

robust lintel
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Incoming makutamon

gaunt bear
# robust lintel Imagine using the soul of a dragonborn as a soul gem

I think this is what happens if someone tries to trap a Dragonborn:

Someone tries to soul trap a Dragonborn. Black soul gem gets blown apart. Dragon soul looks at poor schmuck with disapproval. Dragon Soul re-enters Dragonborn “shell”. Poor schmuck gets yeeted into Oblivion.

gaunt bear
robust lintel
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Oh I'd never try to use a black soul gem lol.. a new soul gem type would have to be specially crafted for them.

gaunt bear
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Maybe so. But said soul gems would have to be used quickly if they want to be used to trap a Dragonborn soul.

robust lintel
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Might even take several splitting the soul up, but all connected by a source

gaunt bear
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Aren’t Dovah technically quasi-divine entities?

robust lintel
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I think so

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God soul gems

gaunt bear
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That sounds like something that could go terribly wrong, or maybe, completely sideways.

robust lintel
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Ooh what fun then 😁

uncut hatch
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Black soul gem would likely work with little issue on a Dragonborn imo.

gaunt bear
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Necromancer and apprentice try to link several soul gems together. Linked soul gems blow up in their face. Apprentice: “Was it supposed to do that?” Necromancer checks formula. Necromancer discovers decimal point in the wrong place.

gaunt bear
uncut hatch
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I don't see why.

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Serana partially soul traps us in Dawnguard with no issue.

gaunt bear
uncut hatch
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She wasn't that specially trained. And even if she was, it wasn't any more than other necromancers.

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She literally explained where trapped souls go incorrectly.

gaunt bear
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I don’t have the time, or energy, to deal with a breathing Dunning-Krueger graph like you, @uncut hatch .

uncut hatch
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Completely rude and uncalled for.

robust lintel
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😂

gaunt bear
uncut hatch
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I didn't even do anything?

robust lintel
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Serena is a noob fr

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Even at her age

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A very old noob

uncut hatch
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I never intended to make it sound like she was a below average necromancer. Specially trained is what I would call her mother. Either way, being good at pouring juice doesn't make a glass hold more liquid.

robust lintel
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Maybe she'll get some skill in another couple thousand years or possibly reach the cloud district?

uncut hatch
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If you know how to cast a soul trap spell, you know how to cast a soul trap spell. My point was solely that we have first-hand evidence a black soul gem can hold a Dragonborn's soul.

robust lintel
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Didn't we just go into the soul cairn tho or like were we infused into a weapon or armor too?

uncut hatch
robust lintel
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Who are the IM's?

uncut hatch
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The mortals-turned-gods who rule over the Soul Cairn.

robust lintel
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Hmm doesn't sound like the typical way it's done with a black soul gem

uncut hatch
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Because Serana incorrectly states that all soul trapped souls go to the Soul Cairn. They don't. The soul must be sacrificed to the Ideal Masters specifically. That's why it isn't what typically happens.

robust lintel
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And even then this sounds like a really screw-ball method. Like it only would work if the soul being contained is willing

uncut hatch
robust lintel
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I mean whenever I use a black gem I just cast soul trap and kill em. No talking to IM's or bartering

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Yea lore got tingled-tangled around prob

uncut hatch
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Ye because we can't sacrifice a soul to a god in gameplay. We can only use them for enchanting or recharging enchanted items.

robust lintel
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Make it up as we go along

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IM gods.. I sacrifice this soul to you ..of orange dartwig!

uncut hatch
robust lintel
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They'd prob ban me from Soul Cairn for life

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Like can't even soul trap me

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But then like

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I'd do the unthinkable and soul bomb the soul out of it, leaving a huge hole in it

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And to top it off

glacial scarab
# uncut hatch Because Serana incorrectly states that *all* soul trapped souls go to the Soul C...

"Just what my mother told me. I've also studied a little bit on my own, but there's not much. When something is trapped in a soul gem, and then the energy is used for powering an enchantment, the remnants are sent here."

Any soul gem?

"Well, I think it's specifically the black ones. I don't know if the Soul Cairn takes just any leftovers."
TBF she does think it's to do with the Black Soul gems.

uncut hatch
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Touché though. I was thinking about "human" souls when I said that, but I should have specified!

glacial scarab
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Her wording does help at the very least imo as she wouldn't have had much research to find out all the ins and outs of black soul gems.
As all she has is what her mother told her and what little she studied herself.

uncut hatch
glacial scarab
# gaunt bear I think this is what happens if someone tries to trap a Dragonborn: Someone tr...

Soul gems are a bit odd lore wise.

We don't know much difference between the "normal" and the Black ones. As the value (Grand, greater and etc) of the soul doesn't exist on the lore side of things as that's just a thing Vanus Galerion made as he was anti-Necromancy.

However we do know of a Soul gem with Dragonborns in them. The Amulet of Kings which Sean Bean destroyed when his curse hit.

uncut hatch
sweet plume
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He’s a famous Actor who tends to die in movies

glacial scarab
sweet plume
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I guess the same is true of Video Games. XD

uncut hatch
robust lintel
plain cosmos
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Except for in Silent Hill, and Sarpe. He's unkillable in those.

glacial scarab
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Silent Hill is funny because the character actually dies in the games so the games and the Sean Bean Death curse nullified each other.

plain cosmos
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And Bean was just so awesome as Sharpe they can't bring themselves to kill him.

velvet whale
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Is it true that the Dragonborn's soul goes back to Akatosh after death, regardless of other pacts they make? And by "true" I mean "broadly agreed".

uncut hatch
velvet whale
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😞

glacial scarab
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In tes5 you can find generic heroes of sovengarde say that they are also Dragonborn

plain cosmos
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There's no real information regarding where it goes. Beyond, possibly, to whatever afterlife they want, per normal souls.

uncut hatch
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There is information. Arthas just brought it up.

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We see some Nord Dragonborns in Sovngarde. 'Twould imply they follow the same system every other mortal does.

plain cosmos
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As I said, beyond possibly whatever afterlife they want.

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But that's 'Dragonborn' not THE Dragonborn.

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One are bearers of the Dragonblood. The other is a specific prophesied individual

uncut hatch
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I'm unsure why it would be any different simply because they have a special destiny tied to them. They are, ultimately, no different from other Dragonborns outside of the whole 'Prisoner' aspect.

plain cosmos
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Because the whole Prisoner aspect changes the entire dynamic. Prisoners aren't bound by the same rules.

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They may not even HAVE an afterlife.

uncut hatch
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Why wouldn't they? They're still mortals.

plain cosmos
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Because that's part of the whole function of them. The ability to be unbound by destiny and the rules imposed on normal mortals.

uncut hatch
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I always found it funny that Prisoners aren't "bound by destiny" when every Prisoner clearly is... because it's a video game. 🤭

plain cosmos
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I think its more... They aren't bound, but part of being a Hero is doing it anyway

brisk perch
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I think the whole Prisoner thing is mostly implied but not explained in-universe. We might not actually be in universe, like we are literally the player manipulating the character, not actually inside the dream.

uncut hatch
brisk perch
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So, we're the character that is playing our irl self?

uncut hatch
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No, the character is the character.

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Prisoners are an undefined variable. They're not bound by the same rules other mortals are. For example, Vivec is Vivec. But the Last Dragonborn is just a title. The person is not static. They change across universes. That's why your Dragonborn is just as valid as mine.

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They're still a person in the world, and they don't know they're capable of seeing what others cannot. People often refer to CHIM and Prisoners as two sides of the same coin, but the biggest difference is that CHIM is conscious knowledge. Prisoners only harbor that knowledge subconsciously. They don't know they know what they know.

brisk perch
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Well, there is something interesting that is a side quest spoiler from ESO. ||https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Valsirenn check Hope Springs Eternal at the end.||

Online:Valsirenn

Valsirenn is a High Elf member of the Psijic Order. You will first meet her while investigating the Monastery of Serene Harmony in Shimmerene.
After completing the main story of Summerset, Valsirenn will become the new Ritemaster of the Psijic Order, and appears in-game as Ritemaster Valsirenn.

uncut hatch
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Yeah, the Psijics very definitely know about Prisoners.

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I think it's supposed to be a clever way to connect the player and their character.

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Like, the player knows what they know. They know about TES, about the world. Your character wouldn't be involved in any of these world-ending events if you never turned the game on. Change follows you because you play the game. The character you are playing as, however, doesn't really know that.

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Hence why I said it's subconscious knowledge. Vivec knows about the Dream, but he's a static individual. That's CHIM. Prisoners, too, know about the Dream, but they don't realize they know about the Dream.

brisk perch
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I'm looking forward to learning more about Hermaeus Mora in June. I know that he's supposedly the ideas from creation not used, but I'm thinking he is literally the remains of those that sacrificed themselves for creation, all the ideas from them that weren't used.

robust lintel
#

That's cool thinking, but prob not in that way? When you say remains and ideas, maybe more like a shedded dead skin?

edgy rivet
#

Plot twist Hermaus Mora is only masquerading as a Daedra but is something else(Not mortal obviously)

uncut hatch
sweet plume
#

Which is essentially every player who plays the game

#

We the player are one of those possibilities that the scrolls foresee

robust lintel
#

Whenever I think of Mora I just think of this unquenchable thirst or lust to know everything. Maybe he started as just one big eye and the lust grew so much that he grew tentacles and more eyes in his endless pursuit

grave sundial
#

I like to think the Last Dragonborn’s afterlife is really just up to the player’s choice. And this is assuming the Dovahkiin doesn’t die right after all the story beats of the game are done and dusted.

robust lintel
#

In a way I don't even see them in their physical forms we see them in, but more of what they represent.

edgy rivet
#

I usually don't act like I'm Dragonborne, its just a legend that got out of hand(That and I don't think I'm going to serve any daedric buttface)

grave sundial
#

If I can’t at least have Volendrung, I don’t want it.

gaunt bear
#

Can’t do anything about the smell, though

robust lintel
#

Mmm smells like taco bell's extra fiery sauce

#

For me, anything from Ur-Dra is nice ☺️

gaunt bear
raw grail
robust lintel
raw grail
#

the way i think about it, he's the Ur-Daedra because of what he represents rather than when he was created. he's discarded plans from the creation of mortality, so he is blatantly Not Our Ancestor: he wasn't included in the final project. in other words, he's kind of the epitome of what makes the Daedra the Daedra, the First of the Spirits which are Not Our Ancestors. not by choice, but by design

i think this also feeds into his sphere as Forbidden Knowledge

#

although that's harder for me to put into words, even vague ones

robust lintel
#

That's interesting, it's like a sea of scattered pages is what he is from the very first one/page

loud thunder
#

I honestly think the Dream is just the fact it's a video game. If they realize their world is fake, they cease to exist.

#

But that's just my two cents.

uncut hatch
edgy rivet
#

Ur-Howard

robust lintel
#

Was Mora always a Daedra tho or not until later? I think that's why he has that title instead

uncut hatch
robust lintel
#

Also possible he did not consciously exist up until he was formed into what we call mora. He's just simply considered Ur-Daedra bc what he is made up of happens to contain some very old pages?

uncut hatch
#

I think that the context of him being called the Ur-Daedra is important too. I don't believe he's ever referred to that outside of Seekers calling him that during conversation.

#

It's very possibly just a title the Daedra under him use to refer to him.

brisk perch
#

It's also more complicated than just being plans of creation not used, given his connections to Jhunal/Julianos, Y'ffre/Dibella, Xarses/Arkay, and so forth.

uncut hatch
#

I don't think I've ever seen Y'ffre and Dibella paired together like that before.

brisk perch
#

It's more the shared symbolism with the creation of the first flower, storytelling, and so on.

uncut hatch
#

I don't think you're supposed to bring that up here...

shell basin
#

...okay post deleted

robust lintel
#

More forbidden knowledge for tentacle-face

high forge
#

Is Stendarr's extra large hammer existing in the elder scrolls world? Or is it just a cutesy mod or CC?

#

I've seen how big it is. I kinda want it for myself.

#

Unrealistically anime-style big. lol

uncut hatch
brisk perch
#

Generally speaking, everything that exists in a TES game is canon (including all DLC and Creation Club, excluding out of series promotions like Portal and the Legend of Zelda), but whether or not the player themselves would have said items, or simply someone in that period got those items, is another matter entirely.

glacial scarab
#

Also it's fantasy so weapons are weirdly shaped in general.
Like Longswords being one handed weapons.

uncut hatch
#

I'm kind of sad Veloth's Judgement didn't get added with Ghosts of the Tribunal.

#

Or even just on its own in CC.

edgy rivet
uncut hatch
edgy rivet
#

I.. don't think you get it but I don't wanna clog up this channel. Its about ESO lore not...weapon designs 😛

uncut hatch
grave sundial
uncut hatch
grave sundial
uncut hatch
#

And the bonus of not being associated with Malacath, yes.

grave sundial
#

Volendrung is better.

uncut hatch
#

Volendrung isn't effected by Smithing thanks to a bug. >:)

grave sundial
uncut hatch
#

Yeah but Malacath. sanguinevomit

grave sundial
#

Don’t care who it’s associated with. Most Daedra aside from Meridia and Azura are evil anyway. And a full good playthrough is essentially impossible.

uncut hatch
#

Meridia sucks.

#

She pretty much stands for the opposite of what makes mortals individuals.

grave sundial
#

Eh. Same argument can be made for the Aedra as well.

#

Gods are fickle.

uncut hatch
#

Well, no but also yes?

edgy rivet
#

Dawnbreaker is kinda cool looking but its a one hander. Not that I trust Meridia. Random disembodied voices are often not beneficial.

uncut hatch
#

Meridia enjoys taking free will from her followers. The Aedra don't.

#

She strips them bare of who they are and makes them, well, machines.

grave sundial
#

Still, I just like the weapons. I don’t really care much who it’s associated with. It’d be a much different game if I did.

uncut hatch
#

I always roleplay, so I almost always approach things from those perspectives in-game. My characters very much so care who an artifact is associated with.

grave sundial
#

Only Daedric Princes I actively dislike are Molag Bal, Boethiah, Peryite, Vaermina, Hermaeus Mora, Mephala and Namira. They’re all evil. Bad across the board, no matter how you spin it.

The rest all have some degree of justification to their existence.

uncut hatch
#

I think that's... fairly inaccurate.

loud thunder
#

Roleplaying can lead to some very satisfying experiences.

After I did Sibbi's quests in my Reinhardt roleplay (it was 2017, don't judge me) and lied to him about his fiancee, the little prick clipped out of his cell. Both mine and my character's morality were in perfect union as Rein's Warhammer connected with his skull. His quests were done, so he was no longer essential and the guards didn't even care.

proven moss
#

I think some of the Daedric Princes are played off as too nice in the games

loud thunder
grave sundial
#

Well, let’s take a look at some of them. Molag Bal and Namira are both pretty horrible. One of them having quite possibly the worst rituals in Tamrielic lore, that being the process in which pure-blood vampires are created. That almost give the Broodmothers from that one Dragon Age game a run for their money.

The other being associated a lot with disgusting bugs and cannibalism.

loud thunder
#

In lore and in game are two separate things

uncut hatch
#

Bal is reprehensible, but he's necessary.

grave sundial
proven moss
#

Yeah. Nocturnal is a good one. Sheogorath is another. Meridia as well. Too amicable. Not bloodthirsty enough.

#

Sheogorath for example is supposed to be truly dangerous to summon. But in the games he just cracks some bad jokes and sometimes makes a few empty threats

uncut hatch
#

That's a gross misunderstanding of the Princes. They're not demons. They don't just want blood and death and gore.

#

I do agree that Sheogorath is poorly depicted.

#

His best depiction is in a card game. 😐

proven moss
uncut hatch
#

I disagree.

#

I should not pray at a statue of every Prince and be told to commit untold horrors upon the local populace. That is both dull and lazy. The Princes aren't intended to be so simple. Some of them prefer to play with mortals. Some of them want to see a Nirn burn. Some just want to handle their business and move on. They vary, and they should be depicted as such.

grave sundial
#

Maybe Bethesda will do that with the Daedric Princes in TESVI.

uncut hatch
#

I mean, they do vary in Skyrim?

loud thunder
#

Meridia is halfway to an Aedra, so I don't know why you'd want to mean by her being Bloodthirsty, unless its like "this vampire is trying to cure himself, kill him before he does"

uncut hatch
#

Oblivion Sheogorath: rains murderous fire dogs on a town for a laugh

Skyrim Sheogorath: "Hi this is my best friend Pelagius."

proven moss
#

I want a Mehrunes Dagon quest where you start a revolt and overthrow an oppressive local lord.

uncut hatch
#

Both are pretty accurate depictions of Sheogorath.

loud thunder
uncut hatch
#

He is constantly switching between the jester and the homicidal maniac.

#

Meh.

grave sundial
#

Jyggalag is probably my least favorite. I can see why the Daedric Princes replaced him for Sheogorath. He’s kinda boring.

uncut hatch
grave sundial
loud thunder
#

I want the Daedra to mess around with the other deities more. Like, Sheogorath convinces every single member of the Dark Brotherhood that they're the next Listener.

uncut hatch
#

That's how you end up like Jyggalag.

#

Mephala gonna feel stabby after that.

loud thunder
#

I know this defeats the purpose of the whole "eldritch entity" bit, but I wish we'd get more personification for Sithis.

He apparently liked a woman enough to knock her up.

uncut hatch
#

More like it's a fabricated story.

loud thunder
#

But Sithis is a definite force in the Elder Scrolls world.

grave sundial
#

Mephala being the one the Dark Brotherhood worships sounds cooler. Don’t know why that changed.

uncut hatch
#

The Sithis described by the Dark Brotherhood can't exist. Their whole idea of the Void and the Dread Father is totally wrong.

#

Argonians even call them out on their bs. 💀

#

Sithis is Nothing. He literally cannot have a will or desires or anything.

loud thunder
#

So, my hope of Sithis being the main villain of an Elder Scrolls game can't come true?

loud thunder
proven moss
#

Well there is quite a lot of conflicting information on Sithis. I don't think we can say anything for certain, really.

#

I like the theory that Sithis is Lorkhan, based on his statue from Oblivion.

uncut hatch
grave sundial
#

Why else do we hear a voice?

loud thunder
uncut hatch
#

It's quite consistent otherwise.

grave sundial
#

Anyone wanna explain to the Dark Brotherhood why they’re wrong?

uncut hatch
#

I don't want to end up like Gaston.

grave sundial
#

I’m sure that’ll go about as well as explaining to a Stormcloak why their rebellion is meaningless.

loud thunder
#

If Sithis is just the embodiment of nothing, then the souls you send him are just going into oblivion... Real oblivion, not the Daedric realm. Embracing non-existence and being denied an afterlife.

uncut hatch
#

Or the "Void" is just a plane of Mephala's.

#

Supported by Lucien Lachance being summonable.

loud thunder
#

I guess that's true.

#

But it does shrink the world a bit.

#

Also you can summon Rufio's ghost.

uncut hatch
#

Deception is her thing.

#

Worshippers are worshippers, however indirect it may be.

proven moss
# uncut hatch Almost all of that conflict comes from the Dark Brotherhood.

Its been a really long time since I last did research on Sithis, but I'm going to say its not just the Dark Brotherhood. Different sources have very different ideas of what Sithis even is. Sometimes he's trot out as a void to Anu's existence. But sometimes he's chaos and change. The Argonians view him as the creator deity.

uncut hatch
#

Argonians also know you cannot personify what is nothing.

#

They understand he is literally a void.

proven moss
#

Its ultimately all a jumbled mess

uncut hatch
#

And Sithis also being Chaos is not mutually exclusive to him being Nothing.

#

The thing is, most of these myths and stories don't personify him the way the DB does.

#

Chaos and Nothing are quite similar. :)

uncut hatch
grave sundial
uncut hatch
sweet plume
#

Argonian’s back then used to fear Sithis

raw grail
raw grail
# uncut hatch Chaos and Nothing are quite similar. :)

And that's why you had me destroy the monument?
"I wished to transform the echoes of our past follies into our serene reverence of today. But, one day, that too will change. Our belief, our culture, our people. All will change, for it must change.
And then all will be nothing once more."

Online:Nisswo Uaxal

Nisswo Uaxal is an Argonian and travelling nisswo of Sithis, who can be found in Dead-Water Village. He shows his devotion to Sithis through his art and is looking for assistance for his latest project.

#

Sithis, at least, seems to kinda contradict the idea that Sithis is Nothing

Sithis is the start of the house. Before him was nothing, but the foolish Altmer have names for and revere this nothing. That is because they are lazy slaves. Indeed, from the Sermons, 'stasis asks merely for itself, which is nothing.'
which is kinda interesting

robust lintel
#

In my understanding, Sithis (or better yet, Padomay) is basically the tree, metaphorically speaking, of which all that other stuff branches from (of which "Sithis" might be one of those branches since is said to represent chaos).

glacial scarab
glacial scarab
raw grail
#

similar to a forest fire burning down the overgrown, dying forest to make way for new, young trees to grow

#

hell, Dagon himself seeks a revolution of sorts against the Aedra of Mundus

glacial scarab
#

Does he though? Dude just wants to destroy stuff quite simple really.
even got a nice book that corrupts mortals to his side to help in his ongoing desire for destruction.

loud thunder
#

He also kinda shares that vibe of conflict = good that Malacath and Boethia have.

All three of them like seeing people struggle.

loud thunder
#

Like you uncover the Glenmoril Witch cure, and either drink it and let them feast on your blood, or feed it to their "cattle".

raw grail
# glacial scarab Does he though? Dude just wants to destroy stuff quite simple really. even got a...

according to merriam-webster, a revolution is a sudden, radical or complete change. his reasons for doing so may be that he craves destruction. i'm not saying he's hoping for a revolution in the sense that he's planning on making Mundus some kind of paradise, or better at all even. i am saying that his goals are inherently revolutionary, in that his goals inherently lead to change, especially suddenly. this becomes particularly clear when you start seeing the themes of change in his sphere. is there something in specific that makes you disagree? would you argue that Mehrunes Dagon taking over the Battlespire wasn't a revolution of sorts, even if it's not the kind of revolution you or i might want to pull off? would you argue that Mehrunes Dagon successfully taking over Nirn, thus bringing about complete, sudden, radical change wouldn't be revolutionary, in a sense?

i'm just kind of confused as to why you seem to disagree foxwhoops

glacial scarab
#

Given how everyone of the Battlespire was killed that was an invasion to destroy and the place was destroyed in the end. There was no revolution there just pure destruction.

#

Jagar Tharn I recall he was helping Dagon destroy the Battlespire.
And from checking UESP it was to eliminate the competition for the "Imperial Battlemage" position which resulted in the death of everyone there.

uncut hatch
raw grail
#

i feel like you and i are having a fundamental disconnect over the meaning of revolution

raw grail
#

perhaps you're framing it in an honorable, ideological, "i'm doing this to further positive goals" way or perhaps you're just thinking of it in a political sense, i'm not sure. what's revolution mean to you?

#

again, why do you disagree that Dagon is revolution?

glacial scarab
glacial scarab
uncut hatch
#

Also, y'know, ESO's whole main quest is about Meridia opposing Molag Bal because they hate each other. It's not 'cause she likes mortals.

raw grail
uncut hatch
#

His actions allowed the Thalmor to rise. His actions crippled the Empire.

raw grail
#

it was intended to bring about a whole lot more

#

screw the Aedra and all that. replace their rule with his own

#

that rule would be Destruction, but the true is same in his own current Plane

grave sundial
#

What did I miss?

loud thunder
#

So, people were talking about Asian influences before, and I have to ask... Why is Gaiden Shinji named the way he is?

Other than the fact it's just a Japanese name and word mashed together, Shinji is a name meaning Ruler, and Gaiden is a phrase meaning "Tale of" (hence Ninja Gaiden: Ninja Story).

There doesn't seem to be any reason for the name, other than Bethesda has trouble naming Redguards. In older games, they had very diverse names like Baurus and Cyrus, but in Skyrim had more Arabic inspired names, like Nazir is an actual Arabic name meaning observant spectator, which also makes sense for his character.

And then there's Gaiden Shinji, who sounds like he was named by an 8th grader.

Is there a deeper significance to his name? Like does he have an Akaviri mom? Or is this just the rule of cool?

plain cosmos
#

Because The Redguard were supposed to be more than just Moors, they had a lot of Carribean and Japanese influences.

robust lintel
#

I saw that it's been said Redguard culture and their greatest heroes have been heavily influenced by Akaviri and Tsaesci culture.

With that in mind, "The best techniques are passed on by the survivors..." is an interesting quote by Gaiden.

Not to mention Redguards (Yokudans) got the whole martial "sword-singing" thing going for them

plain cosmos
#

That seems unlikely, given their distant removal from any Akaviri influence.

#

Shinji is just a relic of the Redguard Rewrite that was later reverted back to the Daggerfall style.

#

He's now really nothing more than an anachronism

#

At the time he was introduced, the ancient Redguard were envisioned as being organised more like the Noble Samurai Houses of the mid Shogunate period,

robust lintel
#

I agree with the writer, seems to a bit of past cultural exchange between the two.

plain cosmos
#

Unless they had contact round the other side of the globe, wouldn't really make sense.

#

Shinji lived about a thousand years before the Tsaesci invasion.

robust lintel
#

We only know what's been written and revealed ..thus far, some could be hinted at in the meantime

plain cosmos
#

Shinji died around 1e950. The Tsaesci didn't invade until 1e2703. Even if Fal Droon is correct, and the 'Middle Dawn' is a fabrication and the period of the Alessian Order only lasted 150 years, we'd still be looking at Shinji dying some 400 years before the Tsaesci invade.

#

Though, Fal Droon is a Darn Fool, so...

#

Probably closer to the 1800 year mark.

uncut hatch
#

So he has a very Asian name within a culture that doesn't actually use Asian names because they had to put him somewhere, and I guess Redguards fit the best.

plain cosmos
#

'Most naturally gifted warriors' and what not.

uncut hatch
#

This is pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if Gaiden Shinji was the name of one of the player characters in the D&D campaign that inspired TES:Arena.

plain cosmos
#

Nor would I. Considering i know... 5 people who independently came up with characters name Gaiden over the years. Myself included.

loud thunder
#

If they didn't have an established race for Shinji, then they should have made him an Akaviri. There were plenty of human Akaviri in the Serpent's Pass stuff.

proven moss
#

I don't think Akaviri were even a thing yet when they made him a Redguard

loud thunder
#

Ah

plain cosmos
#

The timeline they put him in also ended up disqualifying him as Akaviri, since he's almost 2000 years before the first Akaviri invasion

#

The Akaviri were mentioned as early as Daggerfall, however... But it's not really clear what they were.

proven moss
#

Honestly the sort of development Redguards have been through is fascinating. Like what was stated above, they initially tried to make them Japanese and Islamic-inspired culturally, which was actually not that uncommon a fantasy trope at the time.

robust lintel
#

That's what I'm saying, they may have the early cultural exchange between the two in mind.. they just haven't really gone into it yet or written in more past lore for it.
It's an ever-expanding universe

loud thunder
#

Has Bethesda explored their religious beliefs yet?

uncut hatch
plain cosmos
#

Well, not Bethesda, ZOS

uncut hatch
loud thunder
#

Redguards

uncut hatch
#

Oh, yeah, their religious beliefs have been explored a decent amount.

plain cosmos
#

It has, unfortunately, been largely relegated to 'The Divines, but Blue Raz instead of Fruit Punch'

proven moss
#

Kurt Kuhlmann and Michael Kirkbride were behind the movement to make the Redguards more African in inspiration.

loud thunder
#

Ah, similar to how the Romans just copied the Greeks but gave them funny names like Mars Ultor and Trivia

proven moss
#

So you have stuff like the Redguard pantheon and their depiction in Adventures and the Redguard comic

uncut hatch
#

Eh, the Yokudan pantheon is still pretty distinct in its own way. It seems to be similar to the Divines, but it's not quite a perfect copy and paste because they are -- allegedly -- from another kalpa.

plain cosmos
#

Truly individual religions are unfortunately a dead thing in TES. Its mostly just the Divines with different names and different depictions. Most we really get are a few gods swapped in focus from the same overall pool.

loud thunder
#

Honestly, and this is just my two cents, I could see the Redguards having a Hindu type religion.

plain cosmos
#

They used to.

uncut hatch
#

Used to? The Crowns are gonna punch you in the throat for saying that.

plain cosmos
#

Their religion is about as Hindu, as the Dark Brotherhood is Catholic.

robust lintel
#

Yea I think it's possible Redguards have their own culture identity, but like most cultures, some past involvement with other cultures or deeper roots before establishing it's own sense of identity.

loud thunder
#

Man, I'd love a Hammerfell game that took inspiration from Middle Eastern and West Asian architecture.

Give us something unique for both Elder Scrolls and fantasy in general

plain cosmos
#

The issue is, Yokudan contact with the Akavir is, we have no indication anywhere of contact on that side of the planet. If it even is a planet. Or how much distance is between them.

uncut hatch
# loud thunder Honestly, and this is just my two cents, I could see the Redguards having a Hind...

The Redguards are religiously split between two ideologies, mostly based upon their political affiliation. The Crowns continue to revere the traditional Yokudan pantheon, which is similar but still quite different from the traditional 8+1 pantheon that is the norm in human societies. The Forebears, on the other hand, accepted the Empire and imperialized alongside this and swapped the traditional pantheon for the Nine Divines.

proven moss
#

I always saw the Dunmer religion as partially Hindu-inspired. Or rather inspired by what little the devs knew of Hinduism at the time.

loud thunder
plain cosmos
uncut hatch
plain cosmos
#

Mixed with a healthy does of Shinto ancestor worship of course.

uncut hatch
#

MK went to university for theology.

loud thunder
#

That can still vary wildly.

uncut hatch
#

I'm just saying I think the Dunmer having an washed down interpretation of Hinduism was probably intentional.

loud thunder
#

So, is Saadia a crown or a forebear?

proven moss
uncut hatch
#

She's from Taneth, so she's a Forebear.

loud thunder
#

Damn

proven moss
#

To make it harder to draw direct parallels

uncut hatch
#

Yeah, obviously I don't know for certain. I just personally don't want to naysay MK's understanding of something he clearly has an interest in and went to school for. It could be intentional, it could not be.

robust lintel
loud thunder
#

Vivec is an interesting character, of the four Lorkhan slurpers, it feels like they're the most unique and deserving of their secondhand divinity. Maybe the 9 should throw Vivec a bone and let them in.

uncut hatch
#

If she's not dead, that is. 🤭

plain cosmos
loud thunder
#

Also, it'd mess with the Altmer that a Dunmer was made divine.

proven moss
#

I don't necessarily naysay it either way. Hinduism is pretty difficult as a religious topic, given its longevity and diversity

plain cosmos
#

And the Alik'r would just be Bedouin Fremen.

loud thunder
uncut hatch
#

I was talking about Vivec.

loud thunder
#

Oh, sorry.

plain cosmos
#

A traitor, and an agent, are two different things

uncut hatch
#

^

plain cosmos
#

It makes less sense for the Alik'r, who actively fought against the Dominion, to be now doing their dirty work to undermine Hammerfell

loud thunder
uncut hatch
#

Of course, but that's always a bit confusing to point out in every conversation.

plain cosmos
#

ESO cementing the Afterlives as very real kinda undermined the significance of death in TES...

loud thunder
#

It's the Dragon Ball paradox

uncut hatch
#

Death, in that instance, is just saying Vivec has moved onto an afterlife and lost her godhood.

#

Like the other two members of ALMSIVI.

plain cosmos
#

I hope Sil is in the worst kind of Oblivion.

uncut hatch
#

Sil hater? Not something you see every day.

plain cosmos
#

Worst member of the Tribunal.

uncut hatch
#

Best person, worst god. IMO.

plain cosmos
#

He bears full responsibility for giving psychopaths godly power, and then running from that responsibility.

loud thunder
robust lintel
plain cosmos
#

I love the character and how it fits into the world. Have absolutely zero sympathy for what happened to him.

loud thunder
#

Also, only played Oblivion/Skyrim, who dat?

uncut hatch
#

I don't think tapping the Heart was explicitly his idea alone and done by him alone.

loud thunder
#

Is it Sotha Sil?

uncut hatch
#

Yes.

plain cosmos
#

He was the 'Smart' one, and unlocked the secret to using the Heart to gain power.

uncut hatch
#

Sil is his name, Sotha is his family.

uncut hatch
loud thunder
#

I thought you meant the duchess of dementia at first

plain cosmos
#

Most likely based around taking a little power at a time, instead of trying to channel it all at once.

#

Considering the Tribunal had to regularly retap the well to regain power.

uncut hatch
#

Still, they did a lot of good for Morrowind.

plain cosmos
#

Debatable.

robust lintel
#

I think they just enchanted some smarty-pants leg armor and got the idea then

plain cosmos
#

Good and Bad mean different things depending on context. Did they protect the Dunmer and help them remain independent?

Absolutely.

#

They also socially and spiritually stagnated them, made them extremely dependent on the Tribunal, and left them highly vulnerable to an aftermath without them.

uncut hatch
#

Most of the bad only happened when the walls came tumbling down.

plain cosmos
#

Plus, the whole Rock thing...

loud thunder
#

They also permitted slavery.

plain cosmos
#

I mean... So did most of Tamriel.

robust lintel
#

Always a cost

uncut hatch
plain cosmos
#

Heck, even Tiber Septim sold people into slavery.

sweet plume
uncut hatch
#

The afterlives were quite real before ESO...

loud thunder
#

Didn't the lady saint lead a slave revolt against the Ayleids?

plain cosmos
#

Yup. And then slavery came back later.

#

Probably when the Alessian Order was trying to exterminate non humans

loud thunder
#

That's probably why I associate the 9 with Christianity so much...

The hypocrisy.

plain cosmos
uncut hatch
loud thunder
#

Alessia: this thing that happened to us was bad.

Her followers: let's do it to people who don't look like us!

uncut hatch
plain cosmos
#

But ESO very explicitly shows multiple Afterlives, firmly cementing their very real existence. Which undermines the whole function of Death and Mortality in the metaphysics.

#

You're Mortal. Until you die. Then you're immortal again.

uncut hatch
#

It shows us... two?

sweet plume
uncut hatch
#

Far Shores and Sovngarde again.

sweet plume
#

Yeah you go to a better place but you were someone’s friend, taken away from them in there prime

plain cosmos
loud thunder
#

So, is Aetherius like "final death" like you can't come back?

#

Because the lady says "as we commend your souls to Aetherius"

uncut hatch
#

We never go to the Sands Behind the Stars.

sweet plume
#

I mean yeah, that’s usually how it goes

plain cosmos
#

Lysandus came back it seems.

plain cosmos
robust lintel
sweet plume
#

I mean people who die believe they are going to a better place to begin with.

plain cosmos
#

And that's fine. I entirely disagree. Mortality is supposed to be this paradigm shifting event in the metaphysics of the Aurbis.

#

But with Afterlives, actual mortality is no different than the Daedra. Your body dies, and 'You' move on.

#

The Daedra at least get to pick where they go

uncut hatch
#

Says who? TES has always had this idea that death is not the end. It never has been. Even with soul trapping, that soul is still being changed or used in another way. It doesn't die, even if the individual does.

sweet plume
#

Yeah but Daedra just come back after a lengthy and painful reconstruction of there body.

#

How long that is always varies of course

plain cosmos
#

Afterlives just make Mortality a job. You die, and get to retire

sweet plume
#

But Really there are worse fates than death

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Eternity sound horrible

sweet plume
#

It really doesn’t when you have people you love at your side

plain cosmos
#

Because it's eternity.

loud thunder
#

I think there should be a barrier where once you cross, there's no coming back. Like, in the old kingdom series, there's 9 gates on the river of death, and once you cross the 9th gate, you can't come back.

edgy rivet
#

soul trapping should be considered questionable.(Cause the idea of being stuck in limbo and not able to go is....uncomfortable.

plain cosmos
#

I don't think you really understand what Eternity means, or is.

uncut hatch
#

... it is questionable.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Then you know that it's incomprehensibly long. As in, entirely impossible to not totally exhaust every story, experience, or idea.

#

Eternity, with ANYONE, would be torture.

robust lintel
#

Eternity for some is centuries, for others seconds

sweet plume
#

So whatever higher power exists I suppose you should ask them to erase you if you can’t stand it

plain cosmos
#

Other settings, like D&D, actually get around this conceptual problem by eventually having 'Souls' merge with their Afterlives, losing themselves.

sweet plume
#

Okay?

robust lintel
#

Recycle and repeat

sweet plume
#

The point is if it ends up being an actual thing when our time is up, are you going to be upset in the afterlife? I think you’ll need to make peace with the idea.

plain cosmos
#

TES once, very briefly, had the Dream sleeve. Then right back to Afterlives.

plain cosmos
sweet plume
#

Ultimately we don’t know what lies beyond death, and any series can tackle it in anyway they wish, because at the end of the day we don’t know what happens.

robust lintel
#

I would be most upset if ppl found out I died to a mudcrab, in the afterlife

sweet plume
edgy rivet
#

I think we fell off the tracks

robust lintel
#

Whatever tickles the brain is just fine 🙂

sweet plume
#

I mean this relates to Elder Scrolls regardless, regarding life and death.

edgy rivet
#

Sovengarde isn't too bad but I wouldn't want to drink beer all the time though

plain cosmos
#

The issue is, the creation of Mundus and advent of Mortality was supposed to be this cardinal, fundimental, paradigm changing event in the Aurbis. The ability for Immortal Souls to refract and self reflect, and finally produce new ideas.

But the conflict about mortality and the finality of it is what sparked the Dawn War, and eventually Lorkhan's defeat.

#

If you just... Get to go back to Aetherius anyway, then what's the point? Why are the Altmer so up in arms when all that stopping them from returning to their immortal paradise is some Flavoraid?

robust lintel
uncut hatch
plain cosmos
#

Mundus being a trap. Being a machine that recycles souls over and over and over and throws them back through the grinder that is the Arena, with an 'Afterlife' being little more than wishful thinking of mortal cults, fits much better with the mechanics and metaphysics of the setting

#

It also makes those who DO escape, those who DO become immortal again, all the more impactful.

sweet plume
#

You should make your own Dnd based world honestly.

#

No just make your own dnd world is my suggestion

sweet plume
robust lintel
#

Any more info on The Wayward Realms lately? I haven't checked in a while, guess I'll go look

plain cosmos
plain cosmos
#

Several, in fact.

sweet plume
#

Good, so you have your own interpretation of how you would make a dnd world

loud thunder
sweet plume
#

Yes those same people

plain cosmos
#

Yes. And already got one warning today, so I'm not going to say more about Obsidian

last sage
uncut hatch
edgy rivet
#

Who let the Khajits out.

sweet plume
#

Personally I think we should let Fantasy Worlds do there own thing at times. If we liked everything they did I feel that would get tiring.

sweet plume
#

Subjectivity and all that jazz

loud thunder
#

Why was my comment deleted?

last sage
robust lintel
plain cosmos
#

The Dawn War and the inciting creation of the setting is about the controversy of Mortality. If Mortality doesn't really mean anything, what's the point of that conflict?

uncut hatch
#

For once, I agree with Terical. 🤭

sweet plume
glacial scarab
# uncut hatch His actions allowed the Thalmor to rise. His actions crippled the Empire.

That was the aftermath and not something that he himself did. People did that on their own they didn't need some Daedric lord for it. Was also something that was going to happen anyway with or without a Tamriel wide demonic invasion. The Thalmor were already rising and the Uriel was already having succession issues given how people didn't trust that the heirs were trust worthy and not replaced by Tharn puppets or something.

I also doubt Dagon was even going for Revolution and was more going for destruction.

Side note man I got distracted.

plain cosmos
#

Similar to how Legends actively makes the Great War make less sense, Afterlives erode the core driving conflict between the main driving powers of Mundus

proven moss
plain cosmos
#

End the Kalpa, start over.

robust lintel
#

Some things don't need a reason and trying to understand them will get you a fast-ticket to Sheodom 😁

sweet plume
#

I like what we have now and I’d rather not lose it

uncut hatch
sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Honestly, I'd rather they just actually USE what they have, rather than radically overhauling anything.

edgy rivet
#

Depends on what it is. I can understand if some part of story is just messy and a contradicting mess.

glacial scarab
#

Lore is generally more fluid with TES. Just really depends on what the writers want.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

TES is still an extremely interesting, nuanced and fantastic setting. Even if the games reflection of that setting is often left wanting.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Biggest thing I'd like to see is the end of codified races, and the rise of in universe discourse about environmental and cultural factors in the formation of those racial stereotypes.

uncut hatch
#

So... don't have races?

plain cosmos
#

Not as they currently exist, no.

uncut hatch
#

But I like them as they currently exist.

sweet plume
#

You know we discussed this before right?

edgy rivet
sweet plume
#

And we all pretty much like them as is?

plain cosmos
#

Yes, I know.

proven moss
#

I think I'd reserve my judgement for the end result. If the overhaul is good, I'd be okay with it. If I think it's bad, I'd really hate it.

sweet plume
#

Also what exactly was that about, the races in particular?

#

Because it’s been about a week or two since that.

plain cosmos
#

You mean the race topic, or the Starfield flashbacks?

sweet plume
#

The Race Topic

plain cosmos
#

More about how Races are divided and handled.

robust lintel
#

As long as I can chop some heads I'm down to play 😄

sweet plume
robust lintel
#

Yes, it's the one that keeps talking after I chopped it off 🤪

sweet plume
#

Guldo: Why can’t I feel my everything?

glacial scarab
#

It's what happens when you deal with Necromancy

edgy rivet
plain cosmos
#

Imga, Khajiit, Argonian, Man, Mer... Generally distinct physiological groups are one thing. No one can say Khajiit don't have claws, or Argonian's can't breathe under water.

Different ethnicities having explicit characteristics within those physiologically distinct groups, on the other hand, is... Well, based in some very outdated thinking.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Alright, point taken. Drop the topic and move on. Something something Mudcrabs.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

We already have them. We just aren't allowed to play them, because the games force the Race Stereotypes.

edgy rivet
#

nah

sweet plume
#

To be fair, It would be tough to put in more unique cultures on this one continent I feel, especially when they essentially have the primary Dominant ones in place

plain cosmos
#

Notes on Racial Phylogeny deals with interbreeding between ethnic groups, and is pretty clear that, while most characteristics tend to be the mothers, offspring DO inherent characteristics from the father.

last sage
plain cosmos
#

Nah, just actually reflect the diversity within those cultures. Oblivion alone could have easily have had 4 or 5 major cultural groups under the Imperial Umbrella. But they opted not to.

uncut hatch
#

Inheriting traits is not the same as being half that race.

glacial scarab
#

I wouldn't be surprised if the different characteristics of ethnicities is a gameplay thing to give different ways to play some builds.

I think Pillars of Eternity had a nice character creation for example where you could choose race, subrace/ethnic group, and then cultural background part of the reason I want TES to expand on their character creation so you could like play as a Old Hold Nord or a Nibenese Imperial.

plain cosmos
uncut hatch
plain cosmos
#

At best, they're Species, but that has all kinds of other implications.

uncut hatch
#

... going back to my game then.

robust lintel
#

Personally it don't bother me cuz I know it's a fantasy game with it's own rules and design.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

My overall point was... Just include a book from an in universe scholar arguing for more environmental and cultural influences in the Stereotypes rather than them being inherent to populations, and put Daggerfall's system back in.

#

That way, if you want to be a stereotypical Dunmer, pick the option and go. If you want to be a Dunmer that's vulnerable to fire? You can do that too.

sweet plume
#

Aren’t they resistant to fire?

plain cosmos
#

You're just using the in-universe discourse to justify a broader and more open ended character creation dynic that gives you a greater range of identities to explore.

glacial scarab
#

It's a gameplay thing because their homeland is known for Volcanos

plain cosmos
sweet plume
#

I mean there is a reason Nords are resistant to the cold, the fact they adapted to there environments as it is.

#

Dunmer living around a Volcano would build up that Resistance to Fire

plain cosmos
#

If you WANT to be a Dunmer who is vulnerable to Fire, well though luck.

sweet plume
#

It isn’t so much a stereotype in that aspect, as much as the idea there bodies naturally accumulated to the environment

plain cosmos
sweet plume
#

But what else could it be?

plain cosmos
#

Magic because they're Dark Elves.

edgy rivet
#

Stereotype would be that Nords have lower IQ then the other Human variants.

plain cosmos
#

We are literally told, they are resistant to fire because that's what their Race is. Full stop.

robust lintel
#

I completely understand the point you're making and it could provide more build options in the sense of race, but for me as it is is kinda it's charm. But if you want more customized or unique feeling character builds there are other roads to approach that too besides focusing on race mechanics

sweet plume
plain cosmos
sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

But like, Classes. Classes make no sense in an in-universe concept. As a gameplay package to get you started in a hurry? They're fine.

#

No one is 'Born' a Battlemage. However, you are born with certain aptitudes which may make a career as a Battlemage easier. The 'Class' simply covers both experience in that career, and those aptitudes. Which is fine, as a quick character creation idea.

brisk perch
#

Classes exist in ESO primarily for balancing reasons, like you've learned about those skills/spells in the past but not put them to use/ready to use them yet. If it were single player, it would be split up into the traditional classes of magic.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

However what if you have those aptitudes but spent your entire life on a Farm, and never got to explore them? The Class concept then falls apart.

#

Having these concepts and having gameplay systems to explore them is fine. But FORCING them is something else altogether.

#

And, at least with Race, it's something which could very easily be integrated into academic discourse in the setting.

glacial scarab
#

I quite like ESOs classes because they've expanded on the magic quite a bit compared to the SP games.

edgy rivet
#

I can't touch the MMO cause the classes don't fit any archetype/theme that I like that is playable.

plain cosmos
#

Is Dunmeri Fire Resistance inherent to them, or is it a result of the environment in which the overwhelming number of them are raised? That's the sort of stuff people IN TAMRIEL would study

glacial scarab
#

Or is it from Azura's curse?

robust lintel
#

Sense of identity I suppose

plain cosmos
#

You don't HAVE to give an explicit answer, especially when you're basically just using it to justify a more in depth character creation dynamic.

brisk perch
#

I'm guessing selection pressures for the fire resistance, since they're living near active volcanoes for thousands of years.

plain cosmos
uncut hatch
plain cosmos
brisk perch
#

4000 or so years is plenty of time, people underestimate how fast some evolutionary changes happen.

robust lintel
#

I have permanently developed night eye from all the editions of Skyrim I've played over the years 😅

plain cosmos
#

Depends on the reproductive rate of the species. 150 generations is an insanely short period of time for evolutionary responses.

#

POSSIBLE, but unlikely to reflect in any sort of major genotypical adaptations to the environment. Over that time, you mostly just see Phenotptical changes.

#

And that's assuming evolution even happens in Tamriel, which... Is inconclusive, given its relatively short existence.

uncut hatch
#

Applying real world science to a universe that doesn't even operate on the same physical laws as us feels... interesting.

brisk perch
#

I'm guessing it's not identical to how it works IRL, either, due to magic being able to influence things faster.

plain cosmos
#

Magic may also ensure it doesn't happen at all.

uncut hatch
brisk perch
#

Timey Wimey Wibbly Wobbly, too

sweet plume
plain cosmos
sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

And the Mudcrabs are more an issue of extinction, than evolution.

#

The Emperor Crabs seem to have just been hunted out.

edgy rivet
#

Its a fictional world, things may not evolve the same way. We have talking Lizards and Cats(Nothing wrong with that but you get the point).

plain cosmos
#

We also know that inheritance of traits doesn't happen the same way, based on Notes on Racial Phylogeny.

#

But, again, this is the sort of academic discussion that could very easily fit into the world.

#

Inherent Qualities, Ecological Adaptation, or Environmental and Cultural Acclimation?

brisk perch
#

All of the above

plain cosmos
#

Let the Tamrielic scholars argue that, and just give us (the players) room to make our characters as we see fit instead of things being dictated to us.

quiet remnant
#

Is it possible that the Last Dragonborn is a Shezzarine? Saint Allessia was blessed by Akatosh and Reman was her spirit baby. Martin was the last of his semi divine liniage. Hjalti/Tiber Septim, Wulfharth, and Miraak were all Shezzarine with no relation to Saint Alessia. Pelinal Whitestrake was a Shezzarine but he was not Dragonborn. I'm currious how the Last Dragonborn was a Dragonborn without being of imperial liniage or Shezzarine. We watched Martin Septim die and he begateth not. Shezzarine seems the only plausable explanation. Also 'Last' implies that there will never again be any mortal with the blood of Akatosh or soul of a dragon. And Mankar Camoran wore the Amulet of Kings without the proper liniage or being Dragonborn. I fail to see how that is possible without Dagon doing something. Also the Camoran dynasty is from Valenwood and they're Wood Elves. Mankar Camoran is a High Elf. Why/how?

uncut hatch
# quiet remnant Is it possible that the Last Dragonborn is a Shezzarine? Saint Allessia was bles...

Is it possible that the Last Dragonborn is a Shezzarine?
This seems to be the case, though I would argue they're not a Shezarrine. Shezarrine is a title that specifically refers to people who are incarnates of Shezarr. "Void Ghost" is a commonly accepted title for all incarnates of LKHAN. The Dragonborn is most likely an incarnate of Shor.
Hjalti/Tiber Septim, Wulfharth, and Miraak were all Shezzarine with no relation to Saint Alessia.
Miraak was not a Shezarrine. He was just a Dragonborn.
I'm currious how the Last Dragonborn was a Dragonborn without being of imperial liniage or Shezzarine.
Simple: You don't need to have blood ties or be a Void Ghost to be Dragonborn. We see two unnamed Dragonborn in Sovngarde. There's no reason to suspect they're Void Ghosts, and they're unlikely to be of one of the special bloodlines.
Also 'Last' implies that there will never again be any mortal with the blood of Akatosh or soul of a dragon.
Indeed it does. The purpose of the Dragonborn has been fulfilled. There's no need for another one.
And Mankar Camoran wore the Amulet of Kings without the proper liniage or being Dragonborn. I fail to see how that is possible without Dagon doing something. Also the Camoran dynasty is from Valenwood and they're Wood Elves. Mankar Camoran is a High Elf. Why/how?
The commonly accepted theory within the lore community is that Mankar was born a Bosmer and turned himself into an Altmer with Mehrunes' Razor. He likely used it to turn himself into a Dragonborn as well. He was undoubtedly not born one.

loud thunder
#

I just thought Camoran was using a string to keep the amulet on

uncut hatch
#

No, he just wore it like normal.
From the Commentaries:

Offering myself to that daybreak allowed the girdle of grace to contain me. When my voice returned, it spoke with another tongue. After three nights I could speak fire.
He turned himself into a Dragonborn via Dagon. The theory is he used the razor, but we don't have proof of that particular part.

loud thunder
#

Also, I'd love to see the conversation that took place between Dagon and Camoran if he did in fact change his race.

"Lord Dagon, my minions don't take me seriously... They call me a Merlet. A... Short king."

"Sigh Get my dagger, I'll show you how to fix this. Proves me for picking one of the cannibal half pints."

uncut hatch
#

I like that the Altmer are super anti-Daedra, but one of their gods was an acolyte of a Prince.

#

Unrelated to anything, but the thought just popped into my mind.

quiet remnant
robust lintel
uncut hatch
quiet remnant
#

Do you know how the Orcs first came into being? They were elves once, taken by the dark powers, tortured and mutilated. A ruined and terrible form of life. And now... perfected.

edgy rivet
#

Sauron enters the chat

quiet remnant
#

@edgy rivet Sauron, yes, your children know that name if you do not. The White Wizard of fearful legend. Did you think him a myth? Or dead?

uncut hatch
#

Metaphorically or literally. Take your pick.

quiet remnant
#

Boethiah disguised as Trinimac (after consuming him) decieitfully decieved Trinimac's worshippers to convert to Boethiah's cult. Cursing those Elves for eternity. And so it came to pass Trinimac becameth Malacath the Daedra, God-King of Orcs. Orcs are cool. Haters say they're goblin relatives.

loud thunder
uncut hatch
#

xD

loud thunder
#

So, outside of the obvious Tolkienian inspiration, what other influences did the Altmer have?
I don't think Elves being arrogant jerks was a thing before Elder Scrolls, so that is fairly unique. But their whole thing reads as very... British Imperialism.
I mean, beyond Fae just being naturally antagonistic toward humans.

uncut hatch
#

Elves are often depicted as arrogant in many fantasy mediums. We humans like writing very human-centric stories, so we gotta be the good ones. :)

#

Tolkien's elves are pretty arrogant.

loud thunder
#

Yeah, but Tolkien made it very clear that Elves were inherently good and men were flawed. PJ adapted it to make Elrond more dismissive of humans, but still.

quiet remnant
#

I believe Summerset Isles has been described like feudal Britian with local manor estates and green countrysides.

#

@loud thunder Tolkien's wood elves were very arrogant. His high elves were almost angelic.

#

They were all 'good' but they didn't treat Thorin's company with the same hospitality as the high elves did.

loud thunder
#

True, but the ES wood elves are removed from that, being more like Ewoks from what I've seen. Living in trees, eating people, simple culture.

quiet remnant
#

The Altmer are described as having 'chivalric high culture' knight like it seems.

#

The Bosmer are viewed as savages by the other races but they don't really care about anything. They love dad jokes. They are unbothered. They don't hurt their forest because it protects them from invasions.

#

And TES wood elves are especially short. That's pretty cool

loud thunder
#

Is the cannibalism thing true? People really focus on that.

quiet remnant
#

In lore yes. In game it isn't even talked about. In ESO it probably is.

#

@loud thunder Part of the Green Pact includes eating everything you kill within 3 days including people. And they eat their dead family members. They don't eat plants or even pick ingredients. All ingrediants used are dead or imported. They import wood to build with but mostly use stone and they are the only 'civilized' culture to make armour from bones (goblins do it). Outside of Valenwood the Green Pact is mostly ignored becaue it is irrelevant.

#

The purpose of the Green Pact is to keep the jungle alive and healthy so they can't be invaded. Also they worship Y'ffre which must have a lot of significance. Though it is said in a game "If our enemies thought all they had to do was plant a few trees around their fort to stop us from attacking they'd be mistaken." Something along those lines.

loud thunder
robust lintel
#

I bet they taste like over-cooked steak. Tough as shoe leather

glacial scarab
raw grail
#

obviously individuals practice the green pact to different extents, but a good portion believe that eating fallen fruit and the like is actually beneficial. after all, it spreads the plant's seeds

raw grail
loud thunder
sweet plume
raw grail
#

it comes up a good few times i think, actually

#

that's a great example tho

shell basin
#

in ESO, one of the quests involves laying to rest the spirits of a warlike Bosmer clan, the Blackroots, who decided to conquer all their neighbours, but disappeared unexpectedly - because the last clan they conquered, knowing they had no chance in the battle, poisoned themselves before the battle, and when the Blackroot ate their victims after the battle, they poisoned themselves and died...

#

And the quest you're thinking of: An Altmer mage was supposed to help the locals with a problem, expecting it to be easy, and his wife has volunteered to be "Pact-hostage", meaning that if he failed to complete the contract, he will have to eat her (whether or not the Bosmer village get to join in the meal, I can't remember). She had agreed to this, apparently believing it to be a formality and certainly not believing her husband would fail... One deal with Clavicus Vile later, things are on the point of going very pear-shaped, and the Bosmer village has got the cauldron lit... "We really wouldn't like to do this, she's lovely, but it's in the contract"... when the Vestige (the player) comes in and saves the day.

velvet whale
#

I've always wondered...could Azura be giving Jarl Idgrod her visions? Is Idgrod actually crazy? She's always fascinated me.

#

I also love how self-conscious she is if you ask her to help you in the Thalmor embassy, which is why I'm doubting that she's truly insane as her people say.

loud thunder
uncut hatch
velvet whale
#

Ah, that makes sense.

uncut hatch
sweet plume
#

They definitely do

quiet remnant
loud thunder
uncut hatch
#

I love it. Bosmer are such a cool race. SCWblush

loud thunder
#

Like I said, they're Ewoks.

Everyone dismisses them, but they were totally going to eat Luke and Han, and absolutely ate the Imperial corpses.

last sage
#

Concern

quiet remnant
#

@velvet whale Jarl Idgrod claims the Divines reveal visions to her. She must have pleased the gods.

uncut hatch
#

Oh no, it's Neko.

last sage
plain cosmos
quiet remnant
#

@plain cosmos I'm just informing.

plain cosmos
#

Fair.

uncut hatch
plain cosmos
#

Uriel was mostly just crazy

uncut hatch
#

Magic also falls under her domain, does that make it any less part of Magnus?

#

Dibella and Mara share love and compassion within their spheres. These things overlap quite often.

#

She can absolutely be receiving her visions from the Divines.

quiet remnant
#

@uncut hatch No domain is exlusive. Many god's shperes overlap in some ways.

plain cosmos
#

Also, given Azura's direct involvement in Morrowind, she's likely somehow involved in Uriel's visions.

#

But generally, the issue with the gods is we only get Mortal perception of them, which is why their spheres seem to overlap as much.

#

Few Ada have such cleanly defined and relatable spheres as Akatosh/Time. Mara and Dibella, for instance, both include love because Love is a more varied and complex concept than simply Time.

uncut hatch
#

According to Baurus, the Septims were often known to have the Sight:

"Strange. He saw something in you. Trusted you. They say it's the Dragon Blood, that flows through the veins of every Septim. They see more than lesser men."
If this ability comes from being Dragonborn, then I'd say it's associated with Akatosh more than anyone else with him.

plain cosmos
#

Intimate love, and familial love, are very different emotions, and reflect in very different ways. But the limitations of, at least English, leave us to use the same word for very different things sometimes.

quiet remnant
#

Many of the god's shperes are not well understood by mortals. Most books about the daedra mention how little is known about Meridia, Mephala, Namira, Peyrite, and so on. Peyrite is refered to as the Taskmaster but few sources refer to him as the god of pestalence.

uncut hatch
#

Peryite is the Taskmaster.

#

He keeps Oblivion in order.

plain cosmos
uncut hatch
#

That's why he's generally unconcerned with mortal affairs. He has to handle Oblivion.

#

And is also why he's seen as weak by so many.

quiet remnant
#

@uncut hatch That is true. Tamreilic scholars admit to limited knowledge of many of the daedric lords.

plain cosmos
#

Peyrite seems to represent structured decay. Disease fit into that sphere, but so does his role in managing and ordering Oblivion.

quiet remnant
#

@plain cosmos My disease comment was in refrence to the afflicted in the Reach. His influence is not limited to Oblivion while that is his primary focus he seems to do other things.

plain cosmos
#

Oh, I get that. But he has been associated with Pestilence in the past.

quiet remnant
#

@plain cosmos Namira is the lady of decay and yet Peryite does represent structured decay. That is another way in which the god's influences, sphere's and domains overlap in areas.

plain cosmos
#

Namira seems to be more unrestrained, entropic decay.

quiet remnant
#

@plain cosmos He is for sure associated with pestilence though the daedric scholars do not mention that in the many books on daedra. The people do not know everything about the gods.

plain cosmos
#

Which sorta plays into mortal perceptions and limitations, they see overlap in the effects, and thus blur the lines, even though the actual reality is far more explicit than that.

#

It's sort of like the Aristotelian Elements, vs... well, how the real world works. People used to believe there was Earth in many things, which gave it solidity, but llthe reality was far more complex

plain cosmos
#

Thinking about it, Azura may not even really include Prophecy in her sphere, but rather it is a natural consequence OF her sphere.

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Azura's more specific sphere seems to be Transitions. The movement from one explicit state to another. Dusk and Dawn being the most clear examples of this, as they are transitory states between Day and Night.

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Her sphere as Transitions would then relate specifically to Prophecies only in so far as she effectively warns people that such a transition is coming, giving them the ability to prepare for it.

uncut hatch
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Her sphere does seem to embody transitions, but I think you're making a fairly mortal mistake by limiting Princes to one general idea. They're much more than that. Transitions is one thing, but prophecy is another. She can hold dominion over both.

plain cosmos
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I'm saying Prophecy ISN'T actually part of her sphere. It's simply a consequence OF her sphere, which is why she's often associated with them.

cinder valley
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Hey! Be careful about going around the curse filter.

edgy rivet
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Azura and Dark Elves, I bet she thinks the attention is..entertaining /myattemptatbreakingtheice

loud thunder
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Come on, mods, I censored it.

last sage
uncut hatch
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plain cosmos
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That's an outdated look on her. Since Morrowind, she's been the LEAST vain god we've interacted with

glacial scarab
plain cosmos
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Though I have heard people argue that they're just crazy people before, and not actually Avatars. I think that's stretching things though.

glacial scarab
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Zenithar as well

glacial scarab
plain cosmos
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Yeah, most times I think they're just playing Devil's Advocate, not legitimately arguing in favour of the idea.

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Most times.

uncut hatch
uncut hatch
plain cosmos
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Yeah, I don't put much stock in them either.

#

Given later information, I think Wulf and Knights of the Nine pretty solidly reinforce Talos' godhood on the whole.

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I mean... Wulf would have to be an eccentric, delusional mage who talks to random people with some sort of selective invisibility otherwise.

uncut hatch
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I don't think the validity of his ascension was ever really in question. The Thalmor are politicians with a goal.

plain cosmos
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I think, in universe, there is definitely theological ground to doubt his Ascension.

#

On the outside, however, it's pretty clear to us.

uncut hatch
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I've personally always assumed it's pretty clear to most in-universe with the Thalmor not denying his ascension and more being offended by it. They seek to kill him by forcing everyone to forget him.

edgy rivet
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I can see the Thalmor literally refusing to listen even if a light came down from the heavens illuminating talos statues. Delusion is a heck of a drug.

plain cosmos
uncut hatch
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What part? I think it's pretty clear they want to end his worship...

#

And ending the worship of a god is what effectively truly kills them.

plain cosmos
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The whole 'Killing him' part.

#

We also have no real evidence that a lack of worship would have any impact what so ever.

uncut hatch
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Aka-Tusk

plain cosmos
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The only tangential mention of the Aka-Tusk is Akha in Khajiiti myth, and all we know about him is he left, and Alkosh is what returned.

uncut hatch
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Aka-Tusk is the original Atmoran version of AKHAT. Not related to the Khajiit.

#

His existence was wiped clean by Alduin. That's why we have no tangible evidence of his existence.

plain cosmos
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In Kirkbride's writing, sure.

#

But even then, in the 7 Fights Alduin doesn't actually errase the Aka-Tusk, even though they are at odds.

#

And the Dragons make zero mention of him, while they are fully aware of Akatosh

#

Who they freely acknowledge is a seperate entity from Alduin.

uncut hatch
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Well it tends to be hard to remember someone who has been erased from existence. 🤔

plain cosmos
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That's kind of a circular argument there. There's no evidence of it being true, because it's been erased.

#

And you can't show it's been erased, because it's been erased!

uncut hatch
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Exactly!

plain cosmos
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Except... Well, Akha IS mentioned, in Pre-Riddle Thar Khajiiti myth. And it's nothing like that.

#

So, the evidence we DO have, argues against the claim anyway.

uncut hatch
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Akha =/= Aka-Tusk

#

They're separate entities. Just like Akatosh and Auri-El. Mirrors of the same core.

plain cosmos
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Akatosh and Auriel are explicitly the same thing. The Mirrors explanation died with Skyrim.

#

And moreso with ESO.

uncut hatch
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I would argue that Skyrim reinforced mirrors.

#

Shor is very clearly not Lorkhan.

#

Tsun is very clearly not Zenithar.

plain cosmos
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No, Shor is what Lorkhan became when he was cut up.

#

And we don't know what Tsun is, only that Imperial scholars relate him to Zenithar. However

#

They also relate Alduin to Akatosh, and that is shown to be explicitly incorrect. So it's more likely Tsun has always been an independent entity

uncut hatch
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Agree to disagree. I don't really have the energy to continue.

plain cosmos
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Meanwhile the Dragons make no distinction between Dragon Gods, treating Akatosh and Bormahu as a singular entity, nor does Gelebor or Vruthur indicate any distinction between Auriel or Akatosh throughout all of Dawnguard.

#

Very well.

quiet remnant
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The Eight and One favor only the righteous! And too few of you remain! The Thief has found the lock that he cannot break! The Warrior, the foe that cannot fall! The Wizard, an incantation that takes not to his tongue! Truly this is the Age of the Serpent and the Void that follows! The Guardians have fallen and no one remains to watch their charges, and all the heavens are now banquet for the Princes of Misrule!

plain cosmos
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I'm here to die 'gainst the force of evil
Here to die in the pouring rain
And sure as the Empire's falling
We'll be rising again.

edgy rivet
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Magic and Blade gets the job done(Yeah I suck at cool phrases)

plain cosmos
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Admittedly, I stole mine from a Civil War song called Rome is Falling.

loud thunder
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So, Clavicus and Barbas, what is the nature of their relationship? Is Barbas Clavicus's familiar? Are they two halves of a single entity (like the Bo Burnham right brain left brain song)? Are they just in a contractual relationship given the nature of Clavicus's domain?

plain cosmos
plain cosmos
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Kind of like how Umbra was made from a piece of his infinity and is both Clavicus Vile and its own thing,

plain cosmos
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It's like if Vile compartmentlaised the part of himself that is driven to honestly adhere to his bargains, and that part manifests as its own independent will.

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That is Barbas.

uncut hatch
plain cosmos
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True

edgy rivet
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It may be stupid, but Barbas being a dog(or in the form of one) I just feel bad.

quiet remnant
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Put him out of our misery! - Clavicus Vile

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"I'll make sure he sees the light." - Barbas

grave sundial
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You are exactly what I was lookin' for!

IMG_0939.png
loud thunder
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Yes, the sapient sword that possesses its wielder is the unruly child of Clavicus Vile.

loud thunder
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Also, that is surprisingly the most Christian adjacent lore I've heard in ES. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, all are the same being, and yet not.

And it's coming from the gremlin conman.

loud thunder
robust lintel
loud thunder
uncut hatch
brisk perch
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Barbas ||was also the villain of Vvardenfell's main story on behalf of Vile||, I think his behavior might be tied to how close he is to his master at the time.

uncut hatch
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I think he just does what he wants. Sometimes he does as Vile does, sometimes he "sides" with mortals to mess with his master. Or, as Terical suggested, to be the "honest" side of the deal.

plain cosmos
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In thinking more about it, Barbas generally seems to act more like the 'Planning' side of Vile. Whereas the Cherub side is more impulsive, often offering wagers or making bets on a whim rather than as more structured terms, deals, and plans of Barbas.

#

Though we're still talking about Daedra, and their use from game to game has tended to be... Rather inconsistent.

loud thunder
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Again, I'd love to see a satirical side to a Clavicus Vile quest channeling the Peter Molyneaux/Tommy Tallerico types in game pitching and development. Over promising and under delivering. Especially since the more beneficial side is usually siding against Vile.

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I feel bad comparing Molyneaux to Tallerico, but y'all know what I mean.

uncut hatch
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I have no clue who either of those people are.

#

Hm... guy behind Fable and a composer. Still don't know what you mean.

#

Oh, huh, Tallerico was involved in the infamous "oof" scandal.

proven moss
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To me, Barbas and Clavicus Vile just run a good cop / bad cop routine. I don't think their conflict is genuine in the slightest. At least not in a serious way.

uncut hatch
grave sundial
raw grail
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plain cosmos
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Well, also that she's a spoiled brat and a psychotic control freak

grave sundial
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A new hand touches the bacon.

uncut hatch
meager geyser
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Is there going to be an elderscroll game for every race playable?

uncut hatch
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I doubt it. A lot of races would make bad playable races, and it would ruin the mystique of some.

sweet plume
uncut hatch
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Oh wait, I misread the message.

#

I imagine they'll eventually get to every province, so long as they have the ability to continue developing games.

sweet plume
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Because my cards are still on Akavir way in the distant future when Tamriel is completely done

#

Which at the current rate it’s going, we’ll all be dead by then and our grandkids will play it

uncut hatch
sweet plume
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I personally disagree on your disagree, because imo why set up something as currently existing in our world and not do anything with it? That’s literally ripe for more worldbuilding beyond Tamriel and your literally wasting the opportunity imo.

#

I am fine with it being mysterious for now but imo that Mystique shouldn’t be forever

uncut hatch
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'Cause Tamriel is the Arena. The conflict comes here.

sweet plume
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I just don’t see a reason to be upset if it happens, there are many people besides myself who want to see it become a reality.

#

Not only that but I’m curious on Akavir’s thoughts on Tamriel

edgy rivet
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I'll see all the Elder Scrolls and love it. (UNless its Elder Scrolls: Oblivion 2 :P)

sweet plume
uncut hatch
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I just don't want it.

sweet plume
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Fair enough

uncut hatch
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Mostly because I feel we'd lose the races we have now unless some extreme circumstances occured.

sweet plume
uncut hatch
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Yeah, Tamrielic races aren't present in Akavir...

#

Hence extreme circumstances.

plain cosmos
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Well, not unless they pull a Deus Ex Mechanicus to get them there.

sweet plume
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Was just making sure, Personally it’s just because I am not against seeing something new and having new races to play as.

#

I am attached to Tamrielic races to I should state

uncut hatch
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I don't wanna go from 10 options to 4.

sweet plume
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I mean the thing is, there may not even be just 4

plain cosmos
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Especially when those 4 are almost definitely Humans, Khajiit, Imga, and 'Unknown'

uncut hatch
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Plus if I can't play as Dunmer, I don't wanna play at all. 😤

sweet plume
plain cosmos
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Not as explored BY Tamrielians

#

If the Akaviri peoples haven't explored it by now, well...

sweet plume
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Yes, by Tamrielian’s, but that is essentially us the Player to.

#

We don’t know anything beyond what we currently know

#

For the better honestly

#

As of now anyway

plain cosmos
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But that's part of the issue with Akavir (beyond my obvious complaints). If we went there, they either need to inject Tamriel's peoples into it to justify the unknown, or somehow flesh out literally thousands of years of it just to not feel empty.