#elder-scrolls-lore

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plain cosmos
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But, at the end of the day, powerful mages raised in societies which favour magical study do not prove greater magical aptitude. They are exactly what you would expect.

jovial monolith
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Though in eso it's mentioned and they explain that the psijics aren't closed to non altmer, they just tend to be make magically inclined with longer lifespans

plain cosmos
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In order to show inherent magical ability, you'd need examples of that group totally removed from the society.

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Which we don't get a lot of in TES, due to the ethnic bigotry of the setting

jovial monolith
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I mean

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I think that would probably be arteum. They are quite secluded and even grow their own food

plain cosmos
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And yet, are almost exclusively focused on magical education they take the Altmeri magical focus to an even greater extreme

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You'd need an Altmer raised in Skyrim, manifesting magical Tallent spontaneously, to support the notion

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Or something similar.

jovial monolith
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I mean

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Gallerion was a peasant with a dead father who was brought go arteum due to his raw magical ability as a child

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He used to be called Trectus? I think

plain cosmos
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On the whole, Races are an incredibly shallow, outdated and less than ethical holdocer from the 70s and outdated ideas about blethnic groups.

jovial monolith
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I um...

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I think you need to separate Es Universe from irl

plain cosmos
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TES is one of the few settings which actually presents a situation where they can be explored in an interesting an meaningful way

obtuse summit
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Is underking even a human mage?

plain cosmos
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It approaches Races AS Races, not as Species

plain cosmos
jovial monolith
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Not all races can have children so some are species

plain cosmos
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Incorrect

jovial monolith
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Do you have any in lore examples

jovial monolith
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Isn't that a lich in daggerfall?

plain cosmos
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Notes on Racial Phylogeny clearly states that the ability for interbreeding outside of Men and Mer is frequently rumoured, though due to the stigma it's never been clearly documented

jovial monolith
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That's your interpretation of that book...?;

plain cosmos
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And, being our only source on the viability of interracial offspring, it's kind of the only evidence of anythinf

jovial monolith
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What I got from it is not they can't plus we don't have any actual examples of that

plain cosmos
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It's not an interpretation, it's literally what it says

jovial monolith
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In eso we see plenty of interrace coupling with khajijt but no mention of mixed children

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Giants can have kids with humans tho

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So that's weird

plain cosmos
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It is less clear whether the Argonians and Khajiit are interfertile with both humans and elves. Though there have been many reports throughout the Eras of children from these unions, as well as stories of unions with daedra, there have been no well documented offspring

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The following paragraph also goes on about Orcs and the lack of evidence of their fertility, however, we know for a fact that they can procreate with other races

jovial monolith
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There's one confirmed daedra/human couple in eso

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Which is ... also strange

plain cosmos
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There are also a few Man/Mer-Beast couples in it as well, though none developed enough for offpsring

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So, most likely, it IS possible. But the nature of interracial couplings and the social stigma against them make them extremely rare

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Even unions between Men and Mer are by far a minority.

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But anyway, it's 12:30, and I need to work in the morning. Cliffs notes, Races as distinct biological clade is one of those shallow generic tropes that Bethesda should just drop. And TES is one of the few settings which is actually in a position to do so, with... Literally no actual work

sweet plume
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What is this whole conversation about?

plain cosmos
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Elves being inherently good at magic, or their society favouring magical skill and thus putting greater emphasis on learning it.

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Basically, why Racials are silly and should go away

sweet plume
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I don’t see why Racial’s have to go away

plain cosmos
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There's a mechanical conversation as well as a lore one, but basically... They're a shallow, outdated way to construct in universe divisions that is born from terrible ideas about ethnicities in the 70s, and which actively restrict character diversity in the game now.

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They lead to forced character identities and builds in-game, and shallow worldbuilding in universe, and actively do more harm than good

sweet plume
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So you dislike it because other races can’t be as Magically adept as an Altmer?

plain cosmos
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No, I dislike them because they lead to entire ethnic groups being defined by singular, forced characteristics

sweet plume
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Forced Characteristics…

plain cosmos
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Race, for instance, doesn't actually exist in Humans. And yet we've produced over 12,000 distinct cultures

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Compare that to ant Magical High Elf in fiction. They're magical aptitude means they have a magical society. the end, move on

sweet plume
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So it’s forced because they are good at Magic so there society should be magically structured?

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Like I’m confused on how it’s forced

plain cosmos
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It's forced, because it leads to the one dimensional thinking of 'They are naturally good at X, this X is important to them'

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Whereas social development is never that simple. If anything, the emphasis on non-magical skills would become far more important, especially socially, out of a value for more challenging skillsets

sweet plume
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Honestly I never saw it as forced.

plain cosmos
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Most people don't

sweet plume
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Honestly your the only one I’ve heard say this, idk really how to feel other than I really never saw it that way because it did not feel that way to me.

plain cosmos
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I've never LIKED Racials, but as ive gotten older, I've grown to actively hate them.

sweet plume
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I really can’t feel hate or dislike, I just don’t see much of a reason to.

plain cosmos
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They stifle individuality and perpetuate stereotypes, but they also almost always lead to over simplistic worldbuilding

sweet plume
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Okay, I haven’t really felt that way but that’s just me.

plain cosmos
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Like, want to be an Altmer who is bad at magic? Too bad, you can't.

sweet plume
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I mean not all Altmer do Magic anyway, there are some Altmer in the Fighters Guild I’ve seen, and a Nord, who’s people are usually known to be more of Sword and Shield combatants is studying to be a mage.

plain cosmos
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They're one of several old RPG tropes which actively hold the genre and it's worlds back

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Like Classes and Weight Based Armour Types

sweet plume
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I mean if anyone wants to chime in on this feel free to, I really have nothing to say other than I can’t really feel that sentiment.

plain cosmos
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That's fine. It's late, and I've already rambled 30 minutes past when I said I was going to sleep

sweet plume
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Btw Terical if you wanna discuss other lore stuff in other places is another populated Lore Server UESP

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Some people from there are here but not everyone

obtuse summit
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the only hybrid race i know is gray-prince from arena quest oblivion.

pastel sorrel
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Tobias from Redguard is a Cyro-Nord, there's IIRC a Cyro-Redguard in ESO, the Imperials in Rimmen have Tsaesci heritage, Lyris Titanborn is a Nord with giant heritage

sweet plume
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Honestly I just don’t feel Elder Scrolls has necessarily squandered it’s World building potential. I mean sure it could use more, more is nice but I can’t really be disappointed about what I have right now.

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Abnur Tharn is a Powerful Mage and he’s not even an Altmer, he’s an Imperial, Racial’s don’t define a race completely on what is possible.

plain cosmos
sweet plume
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I just take it as “They have an edge, but the Edge doesn’t necessarily make the individual more talented under it.”

pastel sorrel
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It would be nice to see more in-depth exploration of its lore, not just laying out the groundwork. What are various Imperial Cult rituals and traditions? What about the Nordic totem gods and their legacies in modern times? We had a bunch of this kind of stuff back in TES3 diving into the cultures of the Vvardenfell Dunmer, it'd be great to see a return to that.

plain cosmos
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Changing from an explicit difference, to a stereotypical bias in universe, would take zero actual work, and allow for far more room to explore worldbuilding

sweet plume
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This is gonna go off topic but one example is Anakin who’s Midichlorian’s are stated to be higher, his potential for growth is bigger than even Yoda who was the highest.

Obi-Wan’s Midichlorian’s are quite low, and yet he ended up becoming a Powerful Jedi despite his potential supposedly being low.

obtuse summit
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i just take racial skills as natural talent.

plain cosmos
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Which is what they are supposed to be

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The problem is, the idea that those talents are present across an entire ethnic group

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That's not at all how talent works

pastel sorrel
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The racials ingame are primarily gameplay mechanics based on the conventional cultural values of those groups. They're not objective lore-wise attributes beyond certain stuff like elven (especially Altmeri) affinity for magic and such

plain cosmos
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And that's what we're talking about

pastel sorrel
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It doesn't mean an Altmer's definitely a magic user, just that they'd have an easier time learning if they started.

plain cosmos
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That affinity for magic being explicitly inherent is, IMO, terrible wprldbuilding

pastel sorrel
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Or a Redguard not actually being a sword user, then whatever bonus to that skill goes unused so it's moot

plain cosmos
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It being a stereotypical byproduct of their main culture is a vastly superior approach to worldbuilding

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Especially given the fact it allows you to have that discussion in universe in a natural way

pastel sorrel
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It's not just one or the other, though

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It's both. They do have natural affinity for magic, so they build their culture around magic, and because they're kind of fond of eugenics, they keep that magical capability strong in their genepool.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
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Yes. Are Nords 'naturally' violent alcoholics? No

plain cosmos
pastel sorrel
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How is it shallow? It's just internal consistency and it's following through on it.

plain cosmos
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Elf good at magic. Therefore, elf build magic culture. It's... A grossly oversimplistic way to approach cultures

obtuse summit
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~~well it's video game ~~

plain cosmos
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More likely, you'd have prestige attached to non magical skills, as they are harder to learn. Especially amongst social elites, as it reflects more time to invest in learning more difficult skillsets

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Instead, we get the usual 'Elf like Magic's trope

pastel sorrel
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Not really? It's explained in-universe why they are the way they are. The Altmer didn't just appear in a vacuum, they have a history behind them.

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Obviously overtly it's the same trope, but something being a trope doesn't really matter, what matters is if it works internally. Tropes are just tools and labels.

plain cosmos
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And you're missing my point entirely

pastel sorrel
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You're not really presenting a good argument for your point.

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Something can be simplistic in concept, that's not a problem by itself. The Altmer as they are make sense in-universe.

plain cosmos
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And then making sense isn't the point

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Because if you go shallow enough, you can make anything make sense

sweet plume
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Starting to get Fettju vibes here…

plain cosmos
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I am saying that the explanation is actively limiting and inherently inferior than a more nuanced, more real-world social approach rather than the usual 'Am good at Magic, therefore Magic' approach.

pastel sorrel
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It feels like you're conflating the gameplay mechanics with the lore way too hard. Or you're incorporating real-world mechanism without understanding why they don't always apply to TES's internal consistency.

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Not all Altmer are mages. They just have an easier time of it.

plain cosmos
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You don't actually have to change anything beyond the basic 'reality' of the setting. But what you DO is open the door to greater exploration of the situation in universe, allowing for greater inherent range of characters, ideologies and cultural identities

pastel sorrel
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Right, except, what doors are closed off here, realistically? Again, not every Altmer's good at magic, and the other elven races don't all have the same affinity for it

plain cosmos
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Altmer are naturally better at it. That's where we stand. The WORST Altmer will inherently be better at it than the worst Nord.

pastel sorrel
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Sure, but that's gonna be a matter of percentages at that point

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One of the greatest mages of all time was himself a Nord as well.

plain cosmos
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It sets up an inherently uneven field which only encodes stereotypes, rather than allowing the setting to do anything interesting with those stereotypes

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To use another example, Bretons are said to be more resistant to Magic because of their Elven blood. Nevermind the fact that this Elven blood is virtually nonexistent, AND seems to work in the total opposite way to their Altmeri ancestors

pastel sorrel
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You can absolutely do interesting things with encoded stereotypes my dude, I'm not sure why you're going off on this. You're not meant to somehow agree that these stereotypes are good, the point is they're there and that has certain in-universe dynamics that can be played with.

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You're not advocating for a "better" system, you're advocating for a system you personally would rather play with. I'm not saying TES's is the absolute greatest, but there's a lot more potential to deal with these matters in-universe than you seem to realize.

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That's a writing issue, not a worldbuilding issue.

plain cosmos
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It's both

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But it's almost 1:30 am, and you and I have had this conversation elsewhere before

sweet plume
pastel sorrel
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I don't recall ever having this conversation with you, but also my thinky bits are mush right now

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Okay yeah we definitely haven't had this conversation before, unless you used to be on a different account, because yours is way too new and I know I haven't spoken on this in a long time.

plain cosmos
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Racials are dumb. The setting as a whole would be better with a different approach, and they actively bring down the setting and the gameplay at the same time. They are in the same boat as Classes and Weight Based Armour

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Different name, in a different place

pastel sorrel
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Racials are, again, primarily a gameplay mechanic. They're by design simplifications for gameplay purposes of what's a more dynamic thing lore-wise.

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You're not meant to take them seriously, and they don't matter a ton over the course of a full playthrough.

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It would be great to see a lot of the more game-y gameplay mechanics taken out in favour of more physically-based systems, but as it is, they're just gameplay mechanics all the same.

plain cosmos
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Before I go, to use the Breton example again to highlight the problem.

Bretons are explicitly said to be resistant to Magic because of their Elven blood. Fine. Nevermind that none of that makes any sense, but accept it as true for a moment.

Removing them from their native environment means you have the exact same result. The same people, the same tendencies, the same resistance.

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A Breton is a Breton, regardless where they are born, raised to acclimated to. That's the dynamic we are presented with.

pastel sorrel
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Okay? That's a dynamic faced IRL by people who are born in countries out of their "typical" ethnic regions. A white dude in Japan is always a white dude in Japan even if he was born and raised there, xenophobia and labeling is a very real thing IRL as it is in TES. Doesn't mean it's right, but it's what happens.

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It takes a long time for those kinds of dynamics to shift.

plain cosmos
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But, if you take a more nuanced approach, and the REAL cause is because of Highrock's inherently competing magical influences, and those raised their building up magical tolerances to those influences, you create a dynamic that A: has more room for exploring different cultural effects and population dynamics, B: allows for far more range of individuals C: presents a naturalistic mechanic which also explains the resistance of Dunmer, Nords and Altmer. All without actually sacrificing the stereotype, or traditional explanation.

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You get a superior end product by taking a more nuanced approach to worldbuilding than just 'Bretons resist magic because Elf Blood'

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And TES, as a setting which almost exclusively delivers it's information through in-universe sources, is rather uniquely situated to create and utilise that nuance

pastel sorrel
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... You're still assuming the racials are universal and objective. Bretons have natural resistances, but how resistant they are can vary. Altmer are more naturally talented with magic, but not always to a meaningful capacity, some still straight up can't do any magic. It's a gameplay simplification of something more dynamic in the lore.

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Again, you're conflating the gameplay with the lore, and I don't think you realize how much you're doing it.

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These are largely just variable bonuses, and in the case of the Altmer for instance, it exists because they work hard to keep it intact, and even then it doesn't make a huge difference for them.

plain cosmos
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I'm not assuming anything. If you have even a single Altmer born with no enhanced magical aptitude, then it's NOT an inherent ethnic trait by definition.

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So while there is a range of that trait, it's presence is supposed to be universal.

pastel sorrel
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According to what?

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It's established in the lore that magical affinity is variable and in some cases non-existent, for multiple reasons

plain cosmos
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According to the standard explanation for how Races function in TES. If it's not inherent, then the statement that Altmer are naturally gifted at magic is false

high forge
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Are the Skyrim (province) dragon priests plus the Solstheim dragon priests basically just bums compared to Miraak's powers?

plain cosmos
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If it is a true statement, then it has to be present in all (non abberant) Altmer.

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It's a simple logic formula

plain cosmos
pastel sorrel
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Altmer are generally gifted at magic. We know it's not literally all of them. Even if it was, that bonus can just as well be negligible, the difference between a 0 and a 1.

plain cosmos
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Alright, the goalposts have been shifted enough for tonight, and it's an hour past when I should have been asleep

pastel sorrel
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And they maintain that innate gift through their isolationism and eugenics

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No goalposts have been moved, you've consistently failed to explain your argument and you've ignored just about every point to repeat it.

glacial scarab
pastel sorrel
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Dragon Priests are not all alike. Ahzidal for instance was another standout.

glacial scarab
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On the racials subject. The racial stuff of the games is just gameplay thing of trying to reflect the races culture in a gameplay manner I wouldn't take it as as fact to refer to the race with.

pastel sorrel
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Likely Nahkriin had some horsepower under him too, moreso than we see ingame. Mans was the ranking priest of what's arguably Alduin's own temple, after all.

glacial scarab
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Vahlok the Jailor/The Guardian defeated Miraak/The Traitor.
I think the priests are somewhat tied to their Dragon as its one of the reasons they can't die properly.

pastel sorrel
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Literally the concept of racials lore-wise is just "hey elven blood tends to net you better magical affinity due to established in-universe historical and mechanical reasons" and "physical traits can tend to pass down because, you know, that's how traits work".

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Combined with a lot of the cultures being somewhat isolationist to one another, and yeah, you end up with highly defined ethnic groups.

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Not saying the concept of race in-universe is handled the absolute best way possible, it'd be great to have more exploration of its nuances, but the potential for those nuances do exist to begin with.

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Like there's some actually racist and otherwise problematic stuff out in the wild, but throwing that mud on every little thing that can superficially resemble it does nobody any favours and undoes whatever goodwill the cause might've garnered.

glacial scarab
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I wouldn't mind if "racials" were expanded if they expanded character creation to include like culture options so you could like further design a character. Like a Highland Breton, Ashlander Dunmer, Old Hold Nord, Nibenese Imperial, Hulkynd Altmer and etc.

obtuse summit
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so.. subrace?

pastel sorrel
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More accurately cultures

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TES4 was actually originally going to decouple culture and race in the character setup. It'd be neat to see that go through.

obtuse summit
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I want lore about sinistral elves.

sweet plume
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Honestly If Yokuda Isles was an expansion I could totally see them finally showing them off.

sweet plume
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The Redguards no longer speak of the Lefthanded Elves, as recalling the elves' abominations serves only to darken their days.

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The reasoning to most likely keep it vague until they tackle it.

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What do you think guys? You think they are there own breed of Elves that went in it’s own direction? Like the Altmer, Ayleids, Direnni, Chimer/Dunmer, Bosmer and Maormer?

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Because they say they all originate from the Fabled Aldmeris and such, you think the same is true of the Sinestral/Lefthanded Elves?

obtuse summit
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and what lefthanded mean? in some culture, left hand refers to only deal with dirty things. somehow i feel same relationship vibe with ayleids and nedes.

sweet plume
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One assumption is that they are the devil

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AKA the Left Hand being what the devil himself sat upon.

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Idk if that’s necessarily a myth from religious text or not but Left Handed Elves definitely has a meaning of some kind.

sweet plume
# obtuse summit and what lefthanded mean? in some culture, left hand refers to only deal with di...

Got it.

**Historically, the left side, and subsequently left-handedness, was considered negative.

The Latin adjective sinister originally meant "left" but took on meanings of "evil" or "unlucky" by the Classical Latin era, and this double meaning survives in European derivatives of Latin, and in the English word "sinister". Alternatively, sinister comes from the Latin word sinus meaning "pocket": a traditional Roman toga had only one pocket, located on the left side. The right hand has historically been associated with skill: the Latin word for right-handed is dexter, as in "dexterity", meaning manual skill. These words continue to be used in describing the points of an escutcheon (heraldry) where the right side of a field is refereed to as "dexter" while the left side is "sinister".**

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Sinistral also means Left Handed

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So the Two Terms are different ways of saying the same thing.

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So essentially the Yokudan’s see these Elves as Evil

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Hence why the call them that

jovial monolith
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Which no one ever even answered btw

plain cosmos
pastel sorrel
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Yeah no I've never heard of that

balmy salmon
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And groups that reside outside their racial home province like the Direnni and Rim-Men.

plain cosmos
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Just Daggerfall it.

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Use 'Race', 'Class' and 'Birthsign' as quick select packages, and make 'Custom' the full Daggerfall dynamic, allowing you to make any character you really want.

plain cosmos
edgy rivet
jovial monolith
plain cosmos
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Their ears aren't really any larger in Mer, simply slightly different shaped.

jovial monolith
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Really...???

jovial monolith
plain cosmos
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Fair, I was considering game models, not the art

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That one's on me.

jovial monolith
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???

plain cosmos
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The depiction of their ears in game haven't been much outside the range of humans. With the exception of some of the ear options in Morrowind.

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But, in the art they are generally depicted notably larger, so that was my bad for only considering character models

jovial monolith
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Dyvath Fyr in eso for reference

image-6.png
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This is unrelated but his armor looks soooo good in eso. They really captured him fully as a character

plain cosmos
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A lot of the armour in ESO looks much cooler, IMO

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A good mix of fantasy, and functional reality

jovial monolith
plain cosmos
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I really liked the overall aesthetic of Skyrim's elves, but they suffer from... Being so grungy

jovial monolith
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And scary

plain cosmos
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Everyone in Skyrim looks haggard, old and filthy. It doesn't do anything to show off the actual range of the aesthetic

jovial monolith
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Like alienlike. The altmer women look......

jovial monolith
obtuse summit
edgy rivet
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Eh I think they could of done better personally. Looks wise,(Personally I think the mod Character makeover is the best look if it could of happened).

plain cosmos
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There is an artist who, as far as I can tell isn't really doing anything anymore... But used to have some fantastic stuff on Mer using the Skyrim aesthetic

jovial monolith
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I think they look somewhere in between. In eso elves don't look mannish but they don't look alien

plain cosmos
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Her Altmer, for instance

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You still have the vertical brows, exaggerated cheekbones, larger eyes, and angular festures.

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But without the grizzled, exhausted look of everyone in Skyrim

jovial monolith
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It's crazy what the community can do in terms of art

plain cosmos
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See if I can find her Dunmer...

jovial monolith
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Another good source is the art feom the blades, whatever the card game is

plain cosmos
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Alas, I can't seem to find any of her male stuff right now...

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Overall point being, it's definitely not the aesthetic that's the problem. It's the execution of it

cerulean tulip
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Ngl elder scrolls has some of the best elves in fantasy. Rivaled only in my opinion by tolkien and warhammer.

obtuse summit
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Not d&d but tolkien?

cerulean tulip
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Tolkien did it first and dnd elves depend on the DM and setting.

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Plus Tolkien’s elves had comprehensive histories and an entire language.

obtuse summit
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Is belharza the only beast man that ever become emperor of cyrodil? 🤔

pastel sorrel
edgy rivet
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Belharza shmellzara. nah. just glory of humanity(bretons imperials, non racist nords and redguards)

plain cosmos
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Minotaur Centurions when?

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That's how you rebuild the Empire. Bring the Minotaurs back into the fold.

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I'd like to see the Dominion try to stop a legion of armoured Minotaurs

lucid imp
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So M’aiq Said that “Skyrim was once a lane of many butterflies now not so much” (paraphrasing)
Is there any lore about or relating to this

pastel sorrel
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in the case of that line, it was an early bug where butterflies wouldn't despawn, so they just kept spawning and spawning and flooding the world

lucid imp
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That’s cool
I didn’t know that

high forge
plain cosmos
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I believe that came before Drax, actually...

brisk perch
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What are adjacent places?

plain cosmos
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Unclear, and generally unexplored as a concept

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My opinion? They are 3d slices of 4d Tamriel at different 4th dimensional orientations from the main Tamriel

high forge
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@plain cosmos

Talos hated Orcs? Why?

plain cosmos
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It's not clear. But he refused to give them entrance into his Empire, and refused to treat them as anything but monsters.

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The general fan-explanation is that his early life in Highrock involved some conflict with the Orcs of the Wrothgar mountains, and it shaped his later opinion on them

high forge
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Wait, then why were there Orcs not just within Cyrodiil during the Oblivion Crisis, but within the Imperial City itself as actual citizens? I have met three orcs in the city.

gaunt bear
plain cosmos
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Yeah, the Warp in the West resulted in them being admitted as a vassal territory.

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So by the time of Oblivion, they had been recognised as citizens of the Empire for about 15 years

raw grail
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prior to him doing stuff in the Warp in the West, Orcs were not citizens of the Empire

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Daggerfall and Morrowind doing this were lowkey the first time orcs had really become "people" in fantasy, i think, rather than fairly strictly monsters. WoW is the other relatively early example, i think

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is p cool

brisk perch
plain cosmos
glacial scarab
obtuse summit
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I guess eternal champion can't be orc or imperial because they don't exist yet

heady wave
obtuse summit
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So colovian/nibenesse then?

heady wave
raw grail
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humans, generally speaking, were Bretons, Redguards, or Nords. Cyrodiil just did not have a native human people the way it does now, by my understanding

sweet plume
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They are seen as more Man but Elven DNA is present but not the major influence to make them side with Mer.

high forge
pastel sorrel
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Beforehand, it was just a term for Imperial citizens of any race. The closest thing to a local distinction was regional, you had specifically Colovians and Nibenese.

high forge
pastel sorrel
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It was the mid-90's, that's what games looked like

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They were about the same caliber as everyone else as the time, though certainly ambitious with what they were making

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There's plenty of lore even back to TES1 that's actually still in place, if sometimes modified or even wholly refactored while maintaining recognizable elements

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It's just mainly TES1 didn't have a lot of lore, it was TES2 that started to really start fleshing things out, and then especially Redguard with the PGE1

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And of course TES3 blew open some of the more metaphysical stuff and delved into the Vvardenfell Dunmer cultures

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But also there was Battlespire and Shadowkey and such which also introduced a bunch of lore. Battlespire especially is an unsung hero, it's got a bunch of stuff on daedric politics, nymics and various other topics that then the later games would reference

glacial scarab
#

Redguard was when the Imperials/Cyrodiils were created as the Nedic race that controlled Cyrodiil

pastel sorrel
#

It was Redguard?

#

I knew it was that or TES3, they're kind of close together in terms of starting to really structure the lore as we know it now

#

TES3's when they appeared as a playable race, at least.

glacial scarab
#

PGE1 if I recall came with Redguard.

pastel sorrel
#

It did

raw grail
#

I thought Amiel Richton was an Imperial tbh

plain cosmos
#

Most of the modern lore came from Redguard and Battlespire but those games had such a small reach, even amongst people who enjoyed Daggerfall, that it didn't really become known in the community until Morrowind

raw grail
#

I'm sure Serithi is aware of that, they were involved in me realizing it myself

plain cosmos
#

Oh, Serithi has been around long enough to know, yeah

proven moss
raw grail
lucid imp
#

Are dedra like Boethiah and azura male or females
Because they have female anatomy but are princes and the loading screen refers to boethiah in a masculine manner

plain cosmos
#

Neither

#

Daedra do not have biological sexes

#

Some have preferred representations, but they are inherently beyond such reproductive concepts, and can reasonably flip at will.

lucid imp
#

Oh. Wired. Cool but wired

glacial scarab
#

Yeah Daedras don't have genders they appear however they want.

Molag Bal for example has a book since TES3 where they took the form of a women to be called a Princess I think?

fading wigeon
#

Daedra don't even have soulsnin the same way mortals, so they refuse to subscribe to mortal constructs/concepts like morality, age, biological sex, et cetera

sweet plume
#

I mean that doesn’t mean we still don’t refer to them as He/She

#

It’s hard to just say they

brisk perch
#

Daedra do have souls just called something different, a vestige. Supposedly mortals of nirn have anuic animus instead, while daedra are padomaic.

obtuse summit
#

just call their most preferred representation. Azura is female like most of the time.

grand belfry
#

They can’t be destroyed permanently no?

brisk perch
#

Sort of, neither can mortal souls, but they can be trapped inside Aetherius I think.
They can die for good but how that happens I'm not sure has been explored, probably has to be under specific conditions.

#

Like how ||Mehrunes Dagon killed the Daedric Prince of Deadlight||, I think perhaps being forgotten altogether can kill them for good.

edgy rivet
fading wigeon
#

if being forgotten killed a Prince then Jyggalag would be dead

wheat pine
#

Do we even know what happened to Jyggalag after the Shivering Isles quest?

gaunt bear
loud thunder
# wheat pine Do we even know what happened to Jyggalag after the Shivering Isles quest?

From what I've seen elsewhere, one of two things happened:

A) the curse of Sheogorath is passed on to the Champion of Cyrodiil, and Jyggalag is now free, and will slowly rebuild his physical form.

B) The curse was not broken, but the islands were preserved. The Champion is merely a steward, a placeholder, and will become the new Haskill when Sheogorath returns.

I'm not a fan of the latter read (which was apparently introduced in ESO)

I like the idea that your character has been essentially subsumed by Sheogorath, so even if you were a lusty Argonian maiden, you're now a Scottish Imperial with blind eyes. The Champion is both now immortal, but now lost to history, because only Sheogorath remains.

plain cosmos
#

The latter is an interpretation of information given in ESO, though it's not actually stated explicitly in any way

obtuse summit
#

jyggalag come first before sheogorath CMIIW

plain cosmos
#

Basically, one of the lore master interviews has Haskill mention that, he is told, he is a Vestage left after something called Mantling. It goes into no further details about it.

obtuse summit
#

yeah, daedra princes cannot make something new. they can only corrupt things. 🤔

plain cosmos
#

Well, GODS cannot make anything new. That is a characteristic unique to Mortals.

#

Aedra, Daedra, Magne-ge, doesn't matter.

obtuse summit
#

isn't aedra creating mundus tho?

#

and magna-ge helping their father?

edgy rivet
#

The idea that you are just screwed to be some...body for sheogorath ...not a fan.

loud thunder
#

So, wait, you're telling me Dagoth Ur isn't a real god because he made a giant robot?

loud thunder
# obtuse summit isn't aedra creating mundus tho?

According to Mankar Camoran, Mundus already existed as another plane of Oblivion, and Lorkhan was the daedric prince in charge of it. But Camoran is a heretic and devout of Mehrunes Dagon, so take it with a whole pillar of salt.

#

Also, can someone tell me if this is true or not: I once heard that Mannimarco is simultaneously a god and a mortal, due to some kind of rift so both endings of... (was he the villain in Daggerfall?) are canon.

#

Meaning both a mortal Mannimarco, like the one you kill in Oblivion, and a deic Mannimarco are running around causing mischief

pastel sorrel
#

Mortals do not have any more or less capacity for creation than the various ada of the Aurbis do. We just have more of a drive to do it due to our mortality, we innovate where most immortals have stagnated in their routines due to their immortality.

#

With exceptions, Lorkhan case in point.

plain cosmos
pastel sorrel
#

Which are a direct result of the Mundus. Which they created.

#

The whole point of the Mundus was to be something new.

sweet plume
#

My Brain

🧠

plain cosmos
#

No, the point of Mundus is to allow for new things. It, it's self, isn't new. The Et-ada had created worlds before.

#

The only difference is that Mundus used specific elements from specific Ada, and imposed restrictions. It, it's self, did nothing new. But it allowed an environment where those trapped in it COULD create new things

pastel sorrel
#

And yet those worlds were new when they were first created.

sweet plume
#

Me when Absorbing Lore.

pastel sorrel
#

Everything, by definition, was new, when it was first created.

plain cosmos
#

In a linear context, sure. But the Dawn wasn't linear either, so everything was simultaneously old.

#

Though even then, that definition is kind of contextually pedantic, and not really related to the topical use

gaunt bear
#

I’d like some help with something for my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction: In an unexpected twist, the Daedric Princes decide to aid the Inquisition against Corypheus. For some reason, each and every prince has a grudge against Corypheus for one reason or another. What I have down (so far) is that: Dumat’s followers have been known, in Ancient Tevinter, to have captured and tortured followers of Hermaeus Mora to extort access to Apocrypha, even though that’s not how that works.

Any other reasons why the other Daedric Princes would be miffed with Corypheus?

glacial scarab
gaunt bear
proven moss
# glacial scarab That's a theory that spawned due to people not liking TES4s Mannimarco. Mannima...

I agree with this. Mannimarco was an underwhelming final boss who is killed as a quest conclusion, even though in lore up to that point - even in Oblivion itself - he's set up as an undying lich and ascended god.
So people were attempting to explain this discrepancy. Initial theories were that it was just somebody posing as Mannimarco. Eventually the more developed idea of Mannimarco being some duplication glitch created by the Warp gained more traction.

#

I think the simplest explanation is that it was Mannimarco, manifesting himself on Nirn like a Daedric Prince might do

#

Ignoring his subpar representation

#

This is kind of why I don't interpret the lore through the lens of "the games are indisputable canon." You very quickly begin tying yourself into knots trying to explain simple shortcomings of video games.

brisk perch
#

Gameplay limitations do not equate to in-universe power, generally speaking.

plain cosmos
#

Unfortunately, Oblivion in particular undermines so much that it's hard to separate the two.

#

No one will ever convince me that bumbling clown was Mannimarco, gameplay limitations or no.

#

Loser wasn't even wearing shoes. SHOES

brisk perch
#

When you are literally a god-moon, do you need to wear shoes?

edgy rivet
proven moss
#

You gonna shame an elf for liking the feel of earth between his toes? Harsh man

plain cosmos
#

Yes.

#

Just... Oblivion's faction quests were poor in general, but the Mages Guild one was practically character assassination.

proven moss
#

I should get back into modding and do a Mages Guild overall. If only I had the time 😔

heady wave
# glacial scarab That's a theory that spawned due to people not liking TES4s Mannimarco. Mannima...

tbf its not just the boss fight as it is, i think its a general depiction issue. Daggerfall can end with Mannimarco literally told as ascending as one of "tHe GoDs oF oBLivIon" and then just reappears as some random dude with a staff later on like what

doesnt help that theres books that talk about his godhood either. imo the theory makes the situation unique enough and more interesting, an ant being cut off of a bigger self. whole thing is dumb tbh.

glacial scarab
plain cosmos
#

Yes, and one is a fancy poet philosopher, whole the other is... Well, Sotha Sil. And the less I say about him, the better

glacial scarab
heady wave
glacial scarab
plain cosmos
#

Fair.

#

Still won't convince me that was Mannimarco. I will die on that hill

#

Also, on the hill that the Dark Brotherhood was better before Oblivion, and that the Pale Pass quest never should have been put in the game. Blades are terrible at their jobs... Alduin was trying to do his job...

#

I wonder if I can get this up to 7 hills, and found Rome...

glacial scarab
#

Anyone would be doomed at their jobs like the Blades are.

Though tbf the Blades only got given the bodyguard part at TES4 before that the "Imperial Guard" (the Guards wearing plate in Castle Ebonheart in TES3) was protecting the Emperor/Empress and his/her representatives

plain cosmos
#

The Blades also have no real successes noted anywhere.

#

In fact, they basically caused the War of the Bretony, recalled their arguably only competent agent in the middle of their only remotely successful operation, and then utterly failed to do anything useful in Oblivion at all.

#

At least the Penitus Oculatus has 2 known successes. Thwarting an assassination attempt on Titus Mede I, and assisting in the resolution of the Umbriel Incident.

glacial scarab
#

They're all over the place and it hurts them alot when they get thrown yet another job because they're not allowed to settle into a role

plain cosmos
#

You can be both bodyguards and intelligence officers without a problem. The issue is that the Blades have never actually succeeded at anything, on their own.

#

They have only ever succeeded when a Hero does the lifting for them

#

It's not a matter of settling into a role, it's a matter of just being bad at their jobs

glacial scarab
#

Because of how late it got added. Them being bodyguards I don't feel was really needed in TES4.
Would've worked better if they kept to the espionage role

plain cosmos
#

That wasn't working for them either though. They had 1 'success' before they were given double duty in the lore. And that was tracking a single den of smugglers

#

Morrowind even retroactively stripped them of a sorta-success, by introducing the whole Hero concept and retroactively applying it to the PCs of Arena and Daggerfall

glacial scarab
#

Blades didn't have much of a role in TES1 and 2 from memory.

TES2 was just you were Uriel's friend and that was it. No ties to the blades just you are Uriels friend so he asks you to do something for him. I think TES2 either had one or two Blades. I forget because one might have been cut content as they had this like scar under or near their eye which one of them hides with jewellery

plain cosmos
#

TES2 , you WERE a Blade. Basically the best. Contrary to the usual 'You were just a regular guy's schtick, you were basically James Bond. The rest of the Blades, however, were responsible for assembling the Numidium (with clandestine help from Mannimarco and the Underlying, both who had their own agendas) and locating the Mantella. They then lost the Totem of Tiber Septim, and accidentally got Lysandus assassinated by a rival, which caused the War of the Bretony

#

You then have to be sent to clean up their mess

#

They did absolutely nothing in Arena, of course, because they hadn't been written yet, but the lack of... Any development regarding them during that time makes them look about as competent as Ocato

#

Oh, there's another hill... Ocato was a Thalmor agent.

#

Of course, I know the INTENT is for the Blades to be accomplished, honour bound guardians of peace. But ultimately, intent means nothing compared to what we're given. As time passes, creators die and fade away, and all we ultimately have is their work, not their intent.

#

And based on what actually exists, in the lore, as it stands .. the Blades are just really, really bad at basically everything.

obtuse summit
#

Oh yeah there's Blade protagonist in TES blades and skyrim adventure game. They just basically possibly stop end of the world lol.

proven moss
#

Technically you're an agent of the Blades in TES 2-5. In Daggerfall you're an agent from the get go. In the others you basically start off as something of an asset before being offered a spot in their ranks.

loud thunder
#

So, I have two questions about the Argonians.

A) Did they actually not only repel the Daedra during the Oblivion crisis, but also counter-invaded Oblivion?

B) are they actually granted a level of unified consciousness through the Hist?

brisk perch
#

The Hist can hijack Saxhleel, providing buffs, debuffs, and even kill them remotely.
So far as we know, they did successfully counterinvade the Deadlands, went so well that the Daedra were closing the portals, not the Saxhleel.
It's not a unified consciousness, but more of an @ everyone that can force them to help.

#

The Hist have a limited unified connection but not a single consciousness, to my knowledge, they can act independently or as a group. Their consciousness is different from other life in general, but it's hard to explain differences in consciousness since we barely understand our own in real life.

loud thunder
heady wave
glacial scarab
sweet plume
sweet plume
loud thunder
#

I don't have any predictions, but I have hopes.

Mostly, I want a team up game, where you have to unite the Aedra and Daedra against Sithis.

Imagine, having to parlay between these very petty gods and demons and their various avatars. Plus, you could bring back fan favorites like Martin as the Avatar of Akatosh or Lucien as the Avatar of Sithis and Cicero as Sheogorath's double agent.

The embodiments of creation and destruction vs the very concept of nothingness.

sweet plume
loud thunder
#

I'd like the Thalmor to have been handed their asses to them by Talos off screen, and then in the next game, Elenwen in an unwilling priestess of Talos, because the only Thalmor who were spared were those who promised to spread the word of Talos.

sweet plume
#

Idk, just seems like people asking for Skyrim 2 or Oblivion 2 Electric Boogalo, I personally think it’s better to go to new places then retread old ground.

loud thunder
#

I'd like an Oblivion and Morrowind remake in Skyrim's updated engine. Keep the old systems like spell crafting and advanced levitation spells, but update the graphics and combat and add more voice acting to Morrowind.

sweet plume
loud thunder
sweet plume
#

The worlds are big as it is and Bethesda doesn’t retread old ground often enough.

loud thunder
#

I don't want to bring up the cheat that Rockstar used, but they could use AI assisted remodeling

#

As long as they properly quality test it, it should be fine.

#

Rockstar royally screwed up, though, because they relied on it too much

#

The Dagoth Ur AI memes are fantastic. I love the ones where he's married to an Argonian Nerevarine.

#

But the problem with that is that they would need to renegotiate the contracts with the original voice actors.

Also, I don't want AI voice acting to become too common in video games because video game VOs have a rough enough time as is.

sweet plume
loud thunder
#

It's funny to hear Dagoth Ur talk about the McChicken, it's not funny to imagine Ralph Cosham being forcefully resurrected in voice form.

#

One thing I'd like to see in future games is more fun races. I'm tired of Elf A and Human C.

Give me Goblins, give me Dremora, give me Rieklings.

#

Arguably, the two best races are the Argonians and Khajiit because of their lore and the fact they look so different from your usual selection of fantasy races.

#

I want to play a Dremora who is a priest of Akatosh, because I think it would be funny as Hell to be a demon who found God.

#

It's my favorite of the whole franchise. I love the town quests so much. I think Paranoia may be one of the best quests in the whole game because it's just you feeding this dude's paranoid delusions.

sweet plume
pastel sorrel
#

Thalmor sabotage of the Crown-Forebear alliance and possible HoonDing involvement.

loud thunder
sweet plume
glacial scarab
# sweet plume I’d believe it, it was either… Due to the Warp Mannimarco succeeded and did not...

As far as the game is concerned Mannimarco in TES4 is the God/Avatar version so that theory is just a reaction to how people saw him in TES4 then to how he was actually meant to be. The issue is just how he looks and how TES didn't do boss fights until TES5 Dawnguard which lead to that theory.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Necromancer's_Moon_(book)

Stay faithful to the Order of the Black Worm, and in time your loyalty will be rewarded. Soon, He will return to set the world right in due time, and those who would stand in his way will suffer enternally [sic] at his hands, just as those who stood opposed before.

Until that day, you must believe and be patient. Hide in your caves, in your ruined forts, in your secret lairs. Raise your minions, summon your servants, cast your spells. Answer the call of the Order when you are needed. Watch and listen.

Oblivion:Necromancer%27s_Moon_(book)
glacial scarab
plain cosmos
#

It's more that they are assumed to have drugs, because the Nords assume the Khajiit are all drug peddlers.

#

The fact that the caravans do in fact, carry Moon Sugar isn't the motivation, it's the racist assumption that they're drug dealers.

lucid imp
#

Sell sleeping tree sap to ysolda

cerulean tulip
#

The khajiit are drug dealers. Don’t let them in. They sell skooma and moon sugar.

edgy rivet
#

Nords need some edumahcation

dawn turret
#

dark elfs are good rouges

lucid imp
cerulean tulip
#

Cat can go work in mines. Dunmer is better

plain cosmos
#

Khajiit are as much drug dealers, as Poppy Farmers are

#

And you can have my lemon poppyseed muffins when you pry them from my cold dead fingers

lucid imp
#

Schooma is just an energy drink
Nothing illegal about that

fading wigeon
#

Whoever said skooma was bad for Khajiit
Was clearly not Khajiit on skooma

lucid imp
#

Based

wheat pine
#

Khajiit have much cooler lore too

fading wigeon
#

Chilling on Twin Moons
Smoking sugar of the heavens

plain cosmos
#

Khajiit don't generally smoke Moon Sugar. Skooma, yes.

last sage
#

Please remember to follow the #rules

plain cosmos
#

Indeed.

Overall point being, the fact Khajiit Caravans carry Moon Sugar isn't because they're peddling drugs. It's because it's their most common seasoning.

#

It would be like banning Cumin for Indians.

dawn turret
#

pet the kittys

shell basin
loud thunder
abstract jasper
loud thunder
plain cosmos
#

And A'tor, conveniently, was both a Crown, and a Sword.

abstract jasper
# plain cosmos Maybe. It's stated to have been a crown, or a sword, or both. Only a single OOG ...

Still, this oog source from Varieties of Faith in the Empire, a book appear in game so it's not entirely an OOG, it's a book that appear on morrowind and dragonborn, as Todd mention, canon level 1st no doubt being a canon is in game event, gameplay, and dialogue, level 2 is in game book, (both being included inside the game) 3rd is non video game source, like manual, comic, and novel, 4th is fan theory, and non official source

plain cosmos
#

The claim about Cyrus doesn't come from Varieties of Faith though. That's the source that says it was a Crown, a Sword, or Both. Of which, A'tor qualifies on all accounts

#

The Cyrus claim comes from Vivec's Sword Meeting, which is basically fanfiction

glacial scarab
#

Varieties of Faith in the Empire is a book written yes. How accurate it is however is unknown. Like how they get Imperials wrong with Reman, Morihaus and Shezarr just don't exist religion wise.

plain cosmos
#

I think it's less that the book gets it wrong, and more that .. well... Oblivion is Oblivion

glacial scarab
plain cosmos
#

Gods, saints, ada, doesn't matter. Absence of evidence (especially in this case) is not evidence of absence.

#

We haven't seen Colovians or Nibanese either

glacial scarab
#

When we visit their homeland and they don't talk of worshipping them or revering them as gods is absence of evidence. It's hard to say that they are still Imperial gods when they never talk or write about them

plain cosmos
#

Oblivion didn't show us anything of Imperial culture

#

It's hardly a good example of them no longer being relevant

#

Especially since, unlike Ebonarm, they haven't been removed from the in game sources

glacial scarab
#

But it isn't just Oblivion as we see and experience in TES5 and ESO

They've been removed from any chance of Worship and Shezarr is in an Ebonarm like state. Imperials in ESO sing of Lorkhan in that Red Diamond song.

plain cosmos
#

We don't see them explicitly, but they haven't been REMOVED

#

Ebonarm was actively cut out of later versions of sources, and effectively retconed entirely

glacial scarab
#

Oh Ebonarm isn't retconned. He's in a weird state.

ESO has tried to add him for years from Base game, Craglorn to finally southern Elsweyr where he appears in a book where they hide his name for whatever reason. I think Ebonarm appears in some CC ported books. TES in general is weird with books because they never update them regardless of later lore

Shezarr never appears anywhere. No one worships it and no one even says its name.

#

Just for the ESO Ebonarm cut stuff
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Cut_Content#Daggerfall_Covenant
Base game

"I keep a shrine to Ebonarm in my home. Every Redguard I know honors the God of War that way."
"I keep a shrine to Ebonarm, the God of War, in my home.
I don't know any Redguard who doesn't."
"May Ebonarm walk beside you in battle, traveller."
Craglorn which later became "the Warrior"
https://images.uesp.net/6/61/ON-concept-Ebonarm.jpg

And then finally what didn't get cut was the Khajiit Dark spirits book
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Dark_Spirits

[?????] A spirit of vengeance. It has no will of its own, as it was born from Azurah's grief after the death of Fadomai and Lorkhaj. None can summon this spirit save Azurah, Boethra, and Mafala, for only they know its true name. It sometimes appears in songs as a black panther, a warrior in ebony armor, or as a hidden sword.

Lore:The Dark Spirits
Online:Cut Content

Cut content is content that had plans to be added to the game at one point, but was removed or changed prior to release. It is not to be confused with Deprecated content, which was formerly in the game and later removed, or Pre-Release content, which is planned to be in the game but still subject to change. Due to the constantly updating nature ...

plain cosmos
#

Fair enough. Ultimately, the less I end up talking about Oblivion and the damage it's done across the board, the less likely I am to get in trouble with the mods, so I'm willing to just drop the subject.

#

All of which is tangential to the fact that Cyrus is never actually called the HoonDing in any official source

#

He's never even directly associated with it, and the one possible association also explains A'tor more directly

lucid imp
#

I love the beastfolk. The khajit with their beautiful culture, and mannerisms. And the argonians for being able to pull stuff like this off while no being as technology advanced

It is believed that the Hist were able to prophesy
the coming of the Oblivion crisis and were able to call the "people" back to Black Marsh.
Furthermore, they were able to coordinate the defense of Black Marsh and defeated the forces of Mehrunes Dagon.[2]
During the Oblivion Crisis, a faction known as the An-Xileel (an Argonian political faction comprised of several powerful clans, including the Scale-Song) rallied the Argonians against the Daedra after the Battle of Kvatch. When the Oblivion Gates opened in Black Marsh, the Daedra did not so much flood into Argonia as the Argonians did into Oblivion. The natives fought and defeated the Daedra on their own turf, doing so with such success that the Dremora lieutenants actually closed their Gates themselves to prevent being overrun, an occurrence unheard of in the other provinces.
Thus, the An-Xileel held Black Marsh until Martin Septim ended the Oblivion Crisis and closed the
Gates forever.

#

Got this from the elder scrolls wiki

glacial scarab
#

I believe that misses the context of who's saying it and when (which can be a wiki problem).

I'd believe that everyone counter attacked (like we know the Redoran tried with the big crab, Kvatch Guards, Legion soldiers at what would become Ione and most likely many more) but Daedra closing their own gates is unlikely unless it was a tactic to divide and conquer by destroying the armies in the deadlands with no way back.

high forge
#

How do the Far Shores (Redguard afterlife) look like?

glacial scarab
#

Septima Tharn: "Hush now, Emeric. Your death matters little—there are other kings. It's this one I wanted. The one who's been holding the Covenant together at every turn. The vestige from Coldharbour."

Septima Tharn: "Didn't think I knew, did you? I did, and I knew I couldn't kill you … on Mundus. Here though, you're severed from Coldharbour, from your soul. Here, you're stuck. Goodbye now."

pastel sorrel
#

Based on the in-universe idea that it's a hypothetical way of slaying daedra for good, cutting them off from the chaotic creatia they normally use to reform

#

But the Vestige doesn't actually rely on that or anything to do with the soul, which seemingly Septima didn't realize. They just use whatever's available to reform with.

#

Local murderhobo refuses to stay dead

plain cosmos
#

We do not know

heady wave
#

yes, battlespire is as well.

pastel sorrel
#

All the games are canon

#

His corprus probably cleared up after Dagoth Ur's defeat.

#

So it'll depend on what Divayth Fyr was able to make work with his research

high forge
#

Does ESO's Vestige have any major influence in the events of both Oblivion and Skyrim? Any mention of him from any book?

pastel sorrel
high forge
pastel sorrel
#

I mean, there's literally nothing to suggest anything either way. We don't know what becomes of the Vestige or what kids might entail.

pastel sorrel
high forge
gaunt bear
proven moss
loud thunder
#

Was Tiber Septim a Breton? I saw a meme about it earlier.

Honestly, I would love it if he was. Bretons are my favorite human race to play as.

Also, I saw the Mommy Azura artist imply she was Molag Baal's daughter. Is that true?

pastel sorrel
loud thunder
#

And is Meridia a former Aedra? I remember seeing that somewhere once. I love when deities have diverse backgrounds. Like how the original princes of Hell were demons, gods, and one fallen angel.

pastel sorrel
#

It's believed she was Merid-Nunda, one of the Magna-ge belonging to Magnus

#

She was kicked out for consorting with those we now know as the daedra, so she kinda just ended up staying hanging around with a few of her sisters while the rest bailed out with Magnus.

glacial scarab
loud thunder
#

I'd love for the Aldmeri Dominion to be just completely clocked off camera and you run into Elenwen as a priestess of Talos in 6, and she's like "well, Talos came back, killed the Stormcloaks, killed my superiors, and only spared me if I swore eternal fealty to him and spread his word."

#

Because we know Talos is divine, otherwise Martin wouldn't have been able to create a gateway to paradise, unless you want to pull some BS about any Dohvakiin, sharing blood of Akatosh, could feasibly be used to create the portal.

plain cosmos
#

They retroactively made Martin wrong, by making Dragonblood have a power of its own.

#

Now, Talos' blessing in Knights of the Nine is more direct evidence

plain cosmos
loud thunder
#

Well that sucks. I feel like he shouldn't have been canonized doing that stuff?

plain cosmos
#

Oh, Talos was not a good person

loud thunder
#

Like, I realize that this is endemic to actual mythology. Caesar and the Pharohs believed themselves to be gods given human flesh, yada yada, but this is a modern fantasy written by people who live in the modern world.

I feel like if Tiber Septim is going to ascend to godhood, it should be because he's a good person.

If the Aedra are not going to be defacto good people, I'm sorry, but I'm running off and joining Azura or Meridia's flocks, because at least they're doing decent work and not acting high and mighty about it.

glacial scarab
pastel sorrel
glacial scarab
#

I'd have to read the dialogue again but I think Martin says he's just after Tibers blood on the armour

pastel sorrel
#

And Azura is largely just doing her own personal stuff and she's not always entirely doing right by us herself. She does right by her.

loud thunder
pastel sorrel
#

Not really

edgy rivet
#

Perhaps she needs a slaying.⚔️

loud thunder
#

I now see why Else hates gods... Except she's still part of the Mythic Dawn for some reason.

glacial scarab
#

Because her being a "God hater" is most likely a cover.

plain cosmos
#

Gods, in most contexts, are not great. Reading mythology is like reading a textbook on abuse and trauma

#

So TES isn't really unique in that capacity.

loud thunder
#

I guess I always saw the 9 as being more Christo-centric than Helenistic, even though they're not monotheistic. It's just that the visual language of the temples is very Christian, with the stained glass and flying buttresses. So, I kind of assumed their lore would reflect that. And the Knights of the Nine triples down on the Christian read. Also, that idiot in Whiterun screaming about love LOVE.

plain cosmos
#

Love in the context of Talos is more Thelemic than Christian, really ...

loud thunder
#

Is Akatosh at least a chill dude? Or is Auriel also hiding some skeleton champions in his closet?

plain cosmos
#

Oh no, still a bit of a right dong

#

Akatosh is, based on what little direct information we have, little different than his Dragon children. Domineering, absolute, bordering on Tyrannical.

edgy rivet
#

🤨 🤨

unkempt tide
#

A reminder to please keep chat appropriate and on topic, thank you.

glacial scarab
plain cosmos
#

Most of the Imperial Pantheon are very... Vague as well. Kynnareth's involvement over storms and her vengeful side, for instance, just isn't mentioned.

#

It's like the Imperial Cult just cut out almost all the myth making and narrative aspects of religion, and double down entirely on the 'Worship because we say so' side

#

We could just blame it all on Oblivion being Oblivion, of course.

shell basin
#

I don't believe Tiber Septim was a Breton - at least not racially.

A Nord in Bretony (Alcaire) makes more sense: his oldest known name (though it has been suppressed by all except the Arcturian Heresy and the Ghost of Old Hroldan, but the latter pretty much confirms the former) is "Hjalti Early-Beard": which is an unmistakably Nordic name, not a Breton name... although the Arcturian Heresy, the only version of history which actually records this name, also reports that he was born in Alcaire, Bretony - certainly not in Atmora, the continent to the north of Tamriel, which is pretty much unpopulated. BUT, the fact that this name was suppressed is what, more than anything else, suggests it was his real original name.

So, a Nord in Bretony.

Later adopting more names and trying to conceal his original identity: first a nickname ("Talos Stormcrown") - the surname came from the storms which were produced either by his Shouts (according to his own propaganda) or by Zurin Arctus (according to the Heresy), where he got the name of "Talos" from is anybody's guess... and then finally adding a Cyrodiilic monicker ("Tiber Septim") to appeal to the Imperial province and look like a unifier rather than a conqueror.

It's agreed that he was Dragonborn and that he could indeed Shout - it's just that there was considerably more to him than JUST that. And a certain bit of "assistance" too.

glacial scarab
#

That's if we assume Hjalti was his proper name and not another name he took.

The Arcturian Heresy is from the Underking who didn't know him before he became Cuhlecain's general.

loud thunder
#

I hesitate to ask, but was Mankar Camoran right about Lorkhan/Shor being a daedra and Nirn his realm of Oblivion?

glacial scarab
#

I'd trust him to be accurate to Mehrunes Dagon but not other things. As he was just a pawn for Dagons attempted destruction of Nirn.

Though I think he gets a few things wrong about other princes and his daughter (I think) acts like 2920 never happened

edgy rivet
#

Nirn being a realm of oblivion or even related to Daedra just irks me.

glacial scarab
high forge
#

Do you consider Talos to be a god?

gaunt bear
gaunt bear
edgy rivet
heady wave
glacial scarab
#

From what we see Talos is a god due to his Blood actually being divine for whatever Camorans ritual was

loud thunder
#

I just want one trial in wonderland type scene where you have to mediate between the Aedra and Daedra and all the other miscellaneous deities. Meridia screaming at Molag Bal and Mannimarco. Azura, the Tribunal, and Dagoth Ur all staring daggers at each other. Everyone avoiding Sithis like the Corprus.

#

I don't think we see enough of the actual deities intermingling. It's always their sycophants. The priest of Boethia desecrating Molag's shrine or the Vigilant of Stendarr attacking vampires.

plain cosmos
pastel sorrel
#

No it doesn't, because Martin could've just provided his own blood in that case.

#

Divinity is retroactive. Tiber Septim's blood is divine, but not because he was Dragonborn.

#

The issue's more that the writers messed up and forgot that a whole slew of other divine artifacts also exist. Martin did a dumb dumb when he said the Divines don't have any besides Tiber's armor.

glacial scarab
#

I think it depends on the artefact itself.
Martin used Tibers literal blood from memory.

pastel sorrel
#

Well yeah, but that's because it was the only divine part of it

#

The armor itself didn't mean anything, it was the blood he was trying to get at

#

Whereas you've got stuff like the Brush of Truepaint, said to be woven with Dibella's own hair. Or Stendarr's hammer. Or Auriel's bow.

#

Or Pelinal's gear

#

All manner of artfacts blessed by the Divines if not directly possessing their own power.

#

Like, you think about it, the fact the ritual even existed meant there were other artifacts that Mankar used before, or that a Mythic Dawn agent would be expected to put together. The whole thing was written in a vacuum, forgetting the internal consistency it was placed in.

plain cosmos
#

Again, the Dragonblood explanation neatly wraps everything up without the need for special pleading, because it explains how Mankar could freely open a portal for him and his followers, as he was Dragonborn himself

#

It also thematically fits better, as it's the legacy of the Covenant it's self that allows you to open the portal, not some second rate usurper and tyrant who became a god later.

#

Skyrim, per usual, retroactively made Oblivion better by explicitly linking the Dragonblood with both inherent power (which we see the Reman Blood Seal respond to) and with a more direct association with Akatosh

#

Tiber Septim's blood is irrelevant. Martin could have cut his own finger for the ritual if he had thought of it, but he didn't.

#

Hell, it's equally possible that Tiber's blood was still irrelevant, and the actual opener of the portal it's self has to be the 'Blood of the Divine'. Meaning if you aren't Dragonborn, you're not opening a portal to Paradise

#

The alternative explanation requires either special pleading for Mankar, or a mountain of Aedric artifacts in a Mythic Dawn warehouse for every time Mankar wants to give a sermon

pastel sorrel
plain cosmos
#

No, it wasn't. The only item was the Great Welken Stone. The other two were divine power.

#

You needed a Daedric Artifact because that's the only way to really access the power of the Princes in Tamriel

#

The actual requirement was the Blood of the Daedra, which Martin surmises would require a Daedric Artifact to meet due to how Daedric power is represented on Nirn

#

And you said yourself the Item isn't important. It's the scrapings from inside it that they use, not the artifact it's self.

pastel sorrel
#

You're failing to adequately explain why Martin, Jauffre and likely others there who would've known that there are many other divine artifacts beyond Tiber's blood failed to make that connection and even claimed such things don't exist. You're trying to haphazardly justify what was ultimately just a series of writing mistakes

plain cosmos
#

A point which is entirely irrelevant to what actually worked

pastel sorrel
#

You're cherry-picking that out and ignoring the circumstances that led to it. It's not difficult to fix those mistakes in the writing, but mistakes they are until then.

#

That Tiber's blood worked isn't really in contention here.

plain cosmos
#

And you're deciding to not recontextualise anything based on new information, even if it makes the old stuff better

pastel sorrel
#

There's nothing to recontextualize, TES5's information has nothing to do with this. We already knew being Dragonborn was a divine blessing of some manner connected to Akatosh.

plain cosmos
#

It has everything to do with this, because Skyrim clearly established that the blood it's self is special, it's not just some arbitrary blessing of rulers

pastel sorrel
#

It was never an arbitrary blessing to begin with? Blood and soul are deeply connected in TES, we know that and it's been further established, but it wasn't just some random thing beforehand

#

We didn't know much about the Dragonborn blessing, but it was established as something obviously important

glacial scarab
#

The portal to Paradise required the "blood of a divine". That's now Dragonborn that's Tiber himself.
Dragonborn is just a blessing that gives the soul of a dragon

plain cosmos
glacial scarab
#

Alessia is surrounded in Imperial myth.
She is Dragonborn nothing more. She and other Dragonborns do not have the blood of a divine

plain cosmos
#

And Skyrim confirmed that it's more than just a line of chosen Kings, but a real, literal aspect of those who carry the Dragonblood

#

Hell, even the Dragons and Mannimarco recognise the Dragonborn's inherent link to Akatosh

pastel sorrel
#

Martin and Jauffre both reasonably should've concluded that Martin himself could do the job if being Dragonborn was adequate for the job. Because, again, the writing was not thought through properly. For any number of reasons - no harsh judgement, stuff happens during game dev and it wouldn't be the first rushed muckup that TES4 has - a lot of the lore was ignored or forgotten for that quest.

plain cosmos
#

There's also nothing to actually support the retroactivity of divinity nonsense

#

No other gods retroactively imposed their divinity on anything, afterall

#

And yes, I know it wasn't written properly. It's Oblivion, of course it wasn't written properly

pastel sorrel
#

The ritual didn't work because of Tiber being Dragonborn. Fundamentally, it worked because it's what the writers decided, which was that the blood of a full-blow Divine was needed and Tiber apparently was the only one that fit the bill, nevermind the power within any of the other aedric artifacts or Martin right there if being Dragonborn was going to suffice.

plain cosmos
#

The HoK was never intended to mantle Sheogorath, either, and yet here we are

#

If you want to accept 'It worked because Plot Divice' then good on you.

pastel sorrel
#

Never intended according to MK, who was only a contractor and not necessarily aware of every internal decision. I'm certainly one to keep MK's word in mind, but he doesn't overrule what's presented in the official work.

plain cosmos
#

TES lore has always been about fixing Bethesda's generally shoddy writing. They never intended for it to be Mantling, because they didn't remember what Mantling was

pastel sorrel
#

The average player is not aware of MK's comments and Sheogorath's dialogue in TES5 strongly hints at what TES4 already established, which was that the CoC did become Sheogorath.

plain cosmos
#

The average player, AND the average writer, isn't even aware of what Mantling was. The notion was never addressed in main line lore until ESO

pastel sorrel
#

I mean, it doesn't have to be called mantling for literally the whole SI plotline to be about it

plain cosmos
#

They made a silly story of taking over for the silly cheese man, and didn't think any further than that. The community then made the connection with Mantling and how it works, and eventually writers agreed

loud thunder
#

This is gonna sound cracked, but I had a weird thought.

Imperials and their trade focused society have more in common with Mansa Musa and the Mali Empire than the Roman Empire.

Granted, aesthetically, they are fully Roma-boo, but I was just thinking, they're not nearly as fascistic as the Roman Empire. IE: no slave class.

Granted, Mali had slaves too, but Mansa Musa did create far reaching trade routes that launched his empire into delirious wealth. The Roman Empire was more known for conquest.

And what are Imperials known for? Being tradesmen and merchants, for being the economic heart and backbone of the empire. Their greater power is literally making people like them more.

This isn't like a theory, just a dumb comparison.

plain cosmos
#

Though not before trying to undermine the entire thing and imply that the Shivering Isles changed nothing

plain cosmos
pastel sorrel
#

The provided narrative in SI is explicitly that we become Sheogorath ourselves. Which involves mantling, whether it got namedropped as such or not. The devs were well aware of the concept, you had MK and Kuhlmann and whatnot working on this stuff too you know

#

Whether the players themselves know what mantling is or not, it doesn't change the provided narrative.

#

Especially with TES5 then leaning into it.

#

This argument really isn't going to go anywhere and it's nearly 5AM here, so, peace.

plain cosmos
#

Peace is an illusion. But a temporary Armistice.

glacial scarab
# loud thunder This is gonna sound cracked, but I had a weird thought. Imperials and their tra...

I think they generally go for diplomats and traders. But I'd note that the race isn't something that reflects the cultures. As game wise I think they try to reflect their stuff in a game sense but it just depends on what you view as Colovian and what as Nibenese.

Like TES3 and 4 had Charm and absorb fatigue powers and in TES5 they had a calm power and the get more gold passive (which unfortunately due to a bug everyone has)

plain cosmos
#

Races in general don't reflect anything remotely useful. But that's not a can of worms to open again.

#

The Imperials reflect most long-standing Empires. You don't maintain control for centuries through explicit military occupation, you have to instill economic and social institutions that solidify your cultural links with occupied territories.

#

All successful political Empires inevitably shift from Conquest to Trade once they conquer a territory, because that's how you ensure long term control

loud thunder
#

Have the vampires ever come out of the shadows and tried to live peaceably with humans? I feel like there are enough decent vampires to justify having them be a widely regarded faction.

Like, get Serana, Hassildor, and Babette on a council together. Maybe Serana even convinced Isran to become a vampire just so he could be their executioner and take out unruly vampires. But he gets cured every now and then so the hunger doesn't overtake him.

#

Like, yeah, the Vigilants would throw a hissy fit, but most vampires aren't Molag Bal worshippers, they're just victims of a curse.

glacial scarab
#

Vampires have a bad reputation for a reason. Like "good" Vampires are a rarity and people would attack them on sight like we see in TES3, 4 and 5 (before Dawnguard removed the stage 4 attacks when they recognised the player as a Vampire).

loud thunder
#

Maybe as an underground faction then. Like, weren't there vampire factions in Morrowind you could join?

(Literally all my info on Morrowind is second or third hand, so beg pardon if that's not the case)

Every game seems to have a fifth faction questline, like Oblivion and the Arena or Skyrim and the Civil War.

It'd be cool to have a vampiric crime family that you're rising through the ranks of. Like the Volkinar, but with less world ending BS and more petty politics of being parasitic immortals.

glacial scarab
#

Morrowind had three vampire clans. There wasn't much to them but there was something.

Cyrodiil was meant to have a Vampire clan that's hidden within the cities. We can assume certain Vampires in TES4 were them but we have no confirmation (Jakben, Earl of Imbel, Janus Hassildor and Seridur but not Vicente Valtieri as he was one of the Morrowind clans).

split pond
#

Does the Dawnguard go after werewolves, or just vampires?

glacial scarab
#

They're a Vampire hunting group that split off from the Vigil of Stendarr.

split pond
#

So just vampires, then. I was curious why they weren't going after the Companions. I thought someone from the Silver Hand, before the start of the game, would have tipped them off by then.

loud thunder
#

Honestly, combining the Fighter's Guild and the Werewolf questlines feels like a mistake. It would be cool if it were a disease like OG vampirism, or you had to do a ritual for Hircine to get Lycanthropy.

Also, I hate that you can't waffle back and forth on it. Serana will make you a vampire lord whenever you want, but you only get two shots at Lycanthropy.

split pond
loud thunder
#

Also, more lady werewolves. There are like three she-wolves in all of Skyrim. Aela and the two in Solstheim.

glacial scarab
split pond
#

Don't the Silver Hand know?

loud thunder
#

Who's gonna believe a bunch of brigands shacked up in an abandoned fort over the venerated Companions?

#

That said, they don't really hide it well. All the inner circle talk in lame puns.

#

I swear to Mara, Aela, you don't have to compare everything to hunting.

outer sorrel
split pond
uncut hatch
outer sorrel
#

If 6 is in fact Hammerfell they'd better bring back Wereboars

loud thunder
#

Hircine really just be out there making people into critters.

outer sorrel
#

Thus why the lizard plant people turn into mammals when they contract werewolf lycanthropy, it doesn't make biological sense cause its magic

loud thunder
#

Molag Bal: I'm going to make a disease that turns you into an immortal parasite, forced to live off your fellow men and mer, a tale of unending misery.

Hircine: Imma give you toe beans.

edgy rivet
unkempt tide
#

A friendly reminder to keep chat appropriate please VBThumbsUp

plain ibex
#

What's the lore behind this one? Can people be enchanted?
I hope so, fire damage on bare fists would be fun.

Screenshot_20230327_015236_Chrome.jpg
uncut hatch
glacial scarab
velvet whale
#

Hiii. I have a question for any lore junkies that might know more than I.

I'm doing a Skyrim playthrough right now and I just realised that the LDB's prophecy talks about four towers that have been sundered or deactivated either during the events of Skyrim or previous games.

I don't know that much about the overall lore of TES but I picked up a few things here and there, and I understand that there is only one tower left, Crystal-Like-Law (I think) in Summerset, and it's these towers which keep Nirn stable within reality.

So my question is...is Nirn ending? Will the next TES installement be the final spark that kindles some kind of gradual series of time-space events leading to an apocalypse?

uncut hatch
# velvet whale Hiii. I have a question for any lore junkies that might know more than I. I'm ...

Crystal-Like-Law was deactivated during the Oblivion Crisis. The only Tower that is 100% certain to still be standing is Ada-Mantia on the Isle of Balfiera. All of the others are either deactivated or of an unknown status.

No, I don't believe Nirn is ending. The destruction of the Towers don't signal the end times imo. Ada-Mantia is the Ur-Tower. It's all that is needed. Everything else is an imitation.

velvet whale
#

I see. But I also found this just now: "The Towers of Nirn are magical and physical echoes of Ada-Mantia which are believed to strengthen and reinforce the strictures of Mundus."

Does this not mean that even though they are not needed, their deactivation might still destabilise the world?

uncut hatch
#

Unlikely. The only event that would truly destabilize the world is the destruction of all the Towers. Ada-Mantia is all that's needed, but the others provide assistance to Ada-Mantia.

velvet whale
#

Interesting VBThumbsUp I find it incredible how much lore there is in the TES Universe. If only real world history was this fun 🤓

uncut hatch
#

Yes, well, metaphysics does make things more interesting. :)

edgy rivet
#

I'd prefer they not do a "Oh god end of the world" unless there's a game segment where its close...but its averted. Or they could do a "Oh no <X tower> is destroyed. Crap is hitting the fan"

Bethesda: "Well actually....."

uncut hatch
#

All of the world-building around the Towers being undermined by some developer deus ex machina would be dull.

velvet whale
#

I've also been wondering just how powerful the Dragonborn really is. Some people say he's mad powerful, others say he's just a very strong warrior.

I'm wondering whether an army led by the Dragonborn post-Miraak - so that he can Bend Will some dragons - could destroy the Thalmor, or at least make them less of a threat.

uncut hatch
#

The thing about the Dragonborn is that they're a player character. You can't accurately power scale a player character. Everyone plays differently, and there is nothing we can use to argue one way or another.

#

Your Dragonborn might be an epic warrior who charges into battle. Mine might be a support mage who lets his followers do all the fighting.

velvet whale
#

Yeah, I understand that. But is there no baseline we could rely on? I mean, let's say a fully developed Dragonborn, all the shouts learned, dragons at his command, friend with Paarthurnax, etc. Something of the sort, despite the whole build diversity aspect for gameplay reasons.

plain cosmos
#

Definitely superior to the likes of Tiber Septim or Reman Cyrodiil. But not, like... A god.

#

Though, being a Hero, it doesn't matter anyway

sweet plume
#

So I learned of that Morrowind Lore Regarding Imperial Cults and Politics and they don’t really have a presence in Oblivion

uncut hatch
#

Lots of things don't have a presence in Oblivion. Some were explained, some weren't.

sweet plume
#

Apparently I believe someone stated that Morrowind made some fans uncomfortable due to the slavery and racism in it, even though it’s fictional history mirroring our history at times and Bethesda as a result toned that back with Oblivion, although that doesn’t really make sense to me in the end.

#

I mean there is a good type of uncomfortable but still being engaged and a bad type of uncomfortable and not being able to continue

#

If that makes any sense.

edgy rivet
#

Unfortunately I don't think humans are gonna be understanding of devs about issues you mentioned anytime soon(Thanks RL). That said personally I think references and not actual display is better.

sweet plume
uncut hatch
sweet plume
uncut hatch
#

They toned it back 'cause it was outlawed. ESO has had no issue with showing slavery in areas that it's legal in.

sweet plume
#

Because I don’t see how you link slavery with religious stuff

uncut hatch
#

What do you mean?

sweet plume
#

I said someone said that Slavery and racism is the reason they toned thing down in Oblivion, and personally I didn’t think that made sense for how that means scaling back Religious aspects among other things.

uncut hatch
#

Oblivion is lacking a lot of the niches of Imperial politics and lore because it's a Tolkien-esque fantasy adventure.

upbeat gull
#

Please do not try and bypass the swearing filter.

sweet plume
uncut hatch
#

I'm not saying I agree with the decision, just that that seems to be the reason why.

sweet plume
#

Ultimately The Lore of the Imperials took a backseat to the setting itself.

uncut hatch
#

That it did.

topaz dome
plain cosmos
#

Yeeeahhh... Slavery was NOT the focus of the Morrowind era critism

plain cosmos
sweet plume
#

Just the designs they chose for everything else invoked LOTR

plain cosmos
#

I can tell it's Cyrodiil after the fact, sure

sweet plume
#

Honestly I can’t dislike Oblivion as much as others may at the end of the day.

#

I know why it annoys them

plain cosmos
#

I can. And the less I go into detail about it the less likely I am to get into trouble.

#

Sufficed to say, I think Oblivion is markedly inferior to both what came before, and what came after, and is the biggest step backwards in the franchise.

sweet plume
#

Well the issue is when you are saying something out of disgust and treat devs like Morons is where it’s an issue.

#

Because I think it’s been known that there are people who legit just bash the devs for there choices and not so much just respectfully say it wasn’t the right choice in the end

plain cosmos
#

Oh, absolutely. There's a difference between criticism, and insults.

#

Even when dealing with Obsidian, I do try to ere on the former.

sweet plume
#

My issue is when people treat the devs like they are morons when I think it’s far from that and more like they made a choice and stuck with it, it didn’t work completely and so they learn from it and do better.

#

Oblivion is my favorite Game in the series despite it’s flaws. And honestly it’s probably because it’s my first Elder Scrolls Game

plain cosmos
#

And that's fair. I... Hold it in very low regard, and to date it is the only Bethesda game I cannot bring myself to enjoy

#

Even with mods.

sweet plume
#

I don’t think it’s bad they wanted to do something different, LOTR Style just didn’t mesh well ultimately. I just don’t think it’s helped either that to this day despite ESO being a thing that Imperials Cultures have yet to be further developed like the difference between Colovian’s and Nibenese.

plain cosmos
#

Bethesda has utterly failed on the Culture side of things since Morrowind.

sweet plume
#

I don’t completely agree there, Oblivion yes, just not after that.

plain cosmos
#

While Skyrim was a bit better, it was still little more than a paragraph stretched to fit an entire novel

#

Which is a major factor in why I desperately hope they do not try to do Hammerfell and Highrock

sweet plume
#

That’s really not a good way to look at things.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

I would rather 1 province of decent lore, than 2 of half assed lore

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Ah, yes. I meant both at the same time

sweet plume
#

Personally I don’t see both either, both are to big for one game anyway

#

I prefer keeping it to one Continent at a time

plain cosmos
#

I see problems on top of the quality one...

#

A cohesive mythology and theme, for instance.

sweet plume
#

I think they’ll do just well personally.

plain cosmos
#

I was aghast at the total lack of culture in Oblivion. And disappointed at the thing veneer of culture in Skyrim.

#

I fully expect Hammerfell to just be Arabian Nights, honestly.

#

Or Aladdin

sweet plume
#

Thing is if your disappointed in the series why are you part of the fandom? I don’t mean this in some elitist way, I’m being genuine here, if they clearly haven’t done things your happy about, why continue following it?

#

Because not to be rude here but there have been times where you just sound disappointed about the series in general

#

And I would have left long ago if something wasn’t making me happy in the end

plain cosmos
#

Because Morrowind was something special. It was creative and engaging and set up this world that we, honestly, still don't have anywhere else.

#

It's frustrating that they've entirely squandered that in the subsequent games, yes. But that potential is still there.

#

Admittedly, Morrowind almost drove me from the franchise entirely, and had to grow on me. It was a significant departure from Daggerfall, and I had to give the world time, despite the mechanical change.

sweet plume
#

Reachmen and Argonian’s got a lot of stuff to work with

plain cosmos
#

Love the Argonian lore. Hate the look of Blackmarsh

sweet plume
#

Black Marsh looks like what I expected it to

plain cosmos
#

In general, Zenimax has done better with the setting than Bethesda has in 20 years. Minus the Bosmer, and Galen...

uncut hatch
#

ESO did loads for Argonian lore. I... I feel like Black Marsh looks about how it should given we only really have border regions. We haven't seen deep Black Marsh, and I think that's intentional.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

My problem with it is... Seams, marshes, gens and wetlands are such vibrant and diverse ecosystems. And everyone just makes them drab mud coloured

sweet plume
#

Breton Druids in Particular which was a twinkle in lore

plain cosmos
#

I... Do not like them. I hate tree hugging nature druids

uncut hatch
#

I love druids, and I was pleased with what ESO added, though I think High Isle felt a bit... rushed?

plain cosmos
#

Give me white robed priests to totemic effigy gods burning people alive in seasonal sacrifices

#

D&D has debased the word Druid

sweet plume
uncut hatch
#

That would have been such a cool civil war.

plain cosmos
#

I would know. I am an angry person.

sweet plume
#

ESO is the game that has added so much to the series that honestly I would be insulted if Bethesda didn’t make it an official part of the series in the end

uncut hatch
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It is an official part of the series.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Yeah. Despite some fringe demogogues, ESO is official canon.

sweet plume
brisk perch
#

It's an official prequel. Any inconsistencies can be handwaved under unreliable narrators. It's like 800-1000 years until the next games in the series, and following the pattern TESVI is probably at the same time if not shortly after TESV

plain cosmos
uncut hatch
sweet plume
uncut hatch
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They are a very small minority, and they honestly aren't very vocal about it anymore.

sweet plume
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I mean the Reachmen DLC is something ESO did MILES better with than Skyrim’s Reachmen.

brisk perch
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IMO, if one is hesitant one could find it on sale someday and get a collection version, lots of story to read through.

uncut hatch
#

The thing about ESO is it's an MMO. It won't be around forever.

#

The servers will go offline someday.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Reachmen are better Druids than Galen

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Oh, I understand that. I've just gotten incredibly tired of everyone doing druids the exact same D&D inspired hippy nature wizards.

sweet plume
#

Regardless I’m happy to get more Lore than no Lore, I haven’t really experienced DND Druids

plain cosmos
#

No one even tried to go outside the mold, or even look at what Druids were before the new-Pagan revivalist movement.

#

Which has been my general issue. Morrowind made an effort to actually, thoughtfully, build a world, a people, and a culture. Oblivion didn't really do anything, and then Skyrim just took a one dimensional Viking trope and applied it across the board.

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Morrowind dared to be different. And that's what made it great. Now, it's like they're afraid to do anything different, and just copy from the standing tropes.

uncut hatch
plain cosmos
#

They had Celtic and Inuit influences. Both are now totally gone.

#

Watered down to just be Vikings fighting for Valhalla

sweet plume
#

Personally I never minded some cultures being very similar to real life cultures but having things that still set them apart in other ways

plain cosmos
#

Which... Is a gross oversimplification if the Danes on its own, let alone being an incredibly uninspiring bit of cultural worldbuilding.

#

They don't really set them apart though. Like, the most interesting part of Nords now, is the Dragon Cult. And the only real development we get for them is 'They were mean baddies'

uncut hatch
#

This is why I love the Dunmer so much more than most of the races. Even in their ESO depiction, we've seen them continue to be so interesting culturally and continue to stand out as a very defined and distinct group amongst the other races.

plain cosmos
#

Yeah, they've been riding the work they did to make the Dunmer an actual culture for 20 years

#

It would be nice if they'd give everyone else the same treatment.

sweet plume
#

Thing is the Dunmer aren’t exactly my favorite race, yes they have the most developed culture atm but that doesn’t make them my favorite by any means.

#

The Khajiit Culture is more of my favorite among the races

uncut hatch
#

I just like dark elves.

#

Drow, Dunmer, the corrupted elves like Sylvanas from WoW, night elves, etc.

plain cosmos
#

I will admit, I am an Elf fan. But my love of the Dunmer is almost entirely because they actually had something to explore

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A culture and identity to dig into, rather than just serving as a thin backdrop for civilisation between dungeon crawls

sweet plume
#

Personally I’ve never been on the Morrowind Band Wagon of “OMG Morrowind best game in the series!”

I frankly find it tiring to hear that like hearing New Vegas is the best Fallout Game

plain cosmos
#

I... Will not touch on the New Vegas topic. Don't want to end up in a frothing rage.

uncut hatch
#

I find it tiring too, as someone whose favorite games is both Morrowind and New Vegas in their respective series.

plain cosmos
#

Morrowind, as a game, was dated even when it came out. It has a lot of problems. But as a world? Bethesda hasn't been able to match it since.

sweet plume
#

Maybe they never will

plain cosmos
#

They could though. If they'd stop being familiar and start writing again.

#

We could have an Anglo-Frankish apartheid state in Highrock, with Celtic, Hungarian and even steppes peoples on the fringes.

edgy rivet
#

Meh, Dunmer fit the ES world but they don't catch my attention. If we returned to Morrowwind would I complain? No of course not.

plain cosmos
#

Instead we get a pretty bog standard Knightly kingdom that.. doesn't actually function like a feudal society, and more like your average 16 year old thinks the Medieval period did

sweet plume
#

Personally I can’t say I’m unhappy in the end.

plain cosmos
#

I am. But more like a disappointed parent, because it could be so much more.

sweet plume
#

I mean it’s already picked up that slack with ESO so I can’t be to disappointed

uncut hatch
#

Me neither. I enjoy Oblivion and Skyrim a lot. It helps that I played them before I was so heavily invested in the lore. Now that I am and am a lot more knowledgeable, I'm sure I'll start having more issues with future titles.

#

But I still enjoy loading up either of them and playing them. Legends is always good fun too. Blades... exists.

plain cosmos
#

Legends is a good enough card game.

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The main story infuriates me.

obtuse summit
#

morrowind setting bit too niche for general 👀

plain cosmos
#

Nah, that's just what the suits want you to think

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Morrowind, and Xbox, are what saved BGS.

uncut hatch
plain cosmos
#

Taking that risk is what made them mainstream.

uncut hatch
edgy rivet
#

Too niche? Thats a weird take even for a higherup lol

sweet plume
sweet plume
uncut hatch
sweet plume
#

Eitherway Elder Scrolls Post Morrowind has been in a good place, I know there is this potential a series has but really I still learned quite a bunch from newer games after.

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No one is saying it can’t do much more

summer yacht
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How's the LORE talk in here going?

obtuse summit
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well the morrowind gameplay is more important than the lore IMO, i mean there's not a lot such 3d open world RPG back then?

sweet plume
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It’s going good, All I’m saying is the lore after Morrowind has not necessarily disappointed other groups of fans.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

The gameplay was... Not great.

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However, no one else had that sort of open world

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So you just kinda put up with it.

sweet plume
#

Thing is with Starfield Bethesda can show if they have come a long way

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We live in a day and age where I don’t think nostalgia is gonna give people rose tinted glasses

plain cosmos
#

And yet...

obtuse summit
#

I mean its easier to enter bethesda RPG game by playing skyrim or oblivion rather than morrowind for non-rpg enthusiast. morrowind lore are bit too difficult to casual player.

edgy rivet
plain cosmos
#

The problem is, Morrowinds lore isn't necessary to play the game, it's there if you want to engage with it.

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Oblivion and Skyrim just don't have it, even if you want to engage. It's only surface level.

sweet plume
#

I mean Starfield Lore is gonna be huge when it comes out.

plain cosmos
#

We shall see. I'm hoping it's a first contact story, personally, buuut...

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Yeah.

obtuse summit
#

hmm what popular fiction during morrowind time? phantom manace ? 🤔 i mean its have star wars prequel vibe lol

plain cosmos
#

The last good Star Wars.

obtuse summit
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like oblivion got LOTR influence lol or skyrim from GOT

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Ok, that's fair.

sweet plume
#

TV Wise minus Things like BOBF, it’s been well

plain cosmos
#

Haven't really followed the shows, myself. Don't generally like Star Wars.

obtuse summit
#

back to lore, its great ESO choose necrom as new setting.

sweet plume
#

Yeah I cannot wait

plain cosmos
#

I am optimistic.

#

Dunmeri funerary practices are great

sweet plume
#

We’ll be here to discuss it with ya

obtuse summit
#

and how are dunmer and hermameus mora related? i mean he is not part of house of trouble daedra CMIIW

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or three "good" deadra

#

o wait isn't mephala his sister? CMIIW

sweet plume
sweet plume
#

What I love about Redguard Culture is that they do not attack undead as it is considered a great sin upon your family in Hammerfell

plain cosmos
#

It may not even be a direct relationship between the Dunmer and Mora, but rather a specific individual.

uncut hatch
#

^It's probably that.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
uncut hatch
sweet plume
#

They view there ancestors with such great respect that striking them down even if to put them out of there misery is just not something they are capable of doing.

uncut hatch
#

Scourg Barrow and the Worm Cult anyone?

plain cosmos
#

In both India, and Japan, at different times, it was considered below the nobility and religious strata to engage with foreigners, meaning only commoners or even outcasts could trade with Outsiders. Which causes them to gain significant economic power.

sweet plume
uncut hatch
#

Tbf they could totally be there and just not be big enough to deal with how big the threat is alone.

plain cosmos
#

Having a similar system, but with a more martial practice, is an interesting thing that adds a lot of potential stories to explore.

sweet plume
#

They are essentially Hammerfell’s Witchers in a sense

#

The general populace do not necessarily like them but they realize they are ultimately a necessity

plain cosmos
#

If the Alik'r don't have Fremen influences in the future, I may riot.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

I've been pretty convinced of Hammerfell since the teaser

sweet plume
#

Forebears and Crowns I can’t wait to see again

plain cosmos
#

Unfortunately, I'm also pretty sure I can predict at least part of the story.

sweet plume
#

As for Wood Elves in ESO Falinesti is considered a potential expansion for them.

obtuse summit
#

Hammerfell is pretty wild province, they have everything lol.

#

dwemer ruin, ayleid ruin, bit nordic ruin too.

plain cosmos
#

I wouldn't be phased if they just burned Valenwood to the ground, honestly.

#

It is the only place in ESO I can't stand, and took Bosmer from my second favourite, to my least favourite

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

All of it bad, IMO

sweet plume
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Silvenar, Green Lady, The Green Pact.

#

Cause you hate Tree Huggers?

plain cosmos
#

Which is a shame, considering how great the Argonian and Khajiit stuff is.

#

No, because they effectively castrated the Green Pact and turned it into just a religion for a bunch of superstitious Lothlorien Elves, while totally squandering everything interesting about the core idea.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Less Art Nouveau motifs, more symbiotic animal relationships, and a Green Pact with real teeth. Instead, we got the softest Bosmer possible.

obtuse summit
#

hipster elf lol, that remind me of overlord 2 game.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Oh, I know. And I don't like it.

sweet plume
#

Except that doesn’t scream soft to me.

plain cosmos
#

Give me Bosmer who are poisoned by eating Plants. Give me Bosmer who live in burrows and spun silk palaces with spider colonies. Give me Bosmer who hunt with spears and teeth because they can't make bows out of wood.

#

None of this Tree Singing, Fruit seating, deadfall using soft-pact.

sweet plume
#

Again it’s really not soft to me.

plain cosmos
#

Soft, as in the Pact. Not the Bosmer themselves.

#

The whole 'Well, it's open to interpretation' thing just softened their whole concept.

sweet plume
#

I still think again we shouldn’t treat what books say about certain people to begin with as 100 Percent Factual

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

Sometimes I think we should. It's a pact made with a god. Was the Covenant of Akatosh open to interpretation'?

#

No, you either sat a Dragonborn on the throne, or you didn't get Dragonfires.

sweet plume
#

Them or there Pact to how we would then come to see it

plain cosmos
#

ESO explored them. And did a terrible job IMO

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

And I disagree. There is nothing in ESO's Valenwood I would save.

sweet plume
#

Regardless I’m not one to take certain books at face value and would rather see it in “Some things are true, some things aren’t, or are misunderstood or is plain lying.”

plain cosmos
#

Nor am i. I am simply of the opinion that they used that as a crutch to make a fundamentally uninteresting people that entirely squandered their concept.

Which is very out of vogue for ESO which otherwise does very well with it's limitations, and pre-established Bethesda lore.

obtuse summit
#

tbf, valenwood in ESO is coming from early days development.

plain cosmos
#

Sure. And it's not great.

obtuse summit
#

bit agree for that lol

edgy rivet
#

While I'm ok with the "Well its their POV not actual true" They shouldn't necessarily treat all aspects of lore to be "unreliable" Thats a case by case basis tho, I can be fickle.

sweet plume
sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

So was Bal Foyen, and it was fantastic

#

Being base game isn't an excuse for being so... That.

sweet plume
#

Not lore wise, just the way the places look

plain cosmos
#

Oh, I'm not complaining how it looks. While I think its generic and uninspiring, it's basically the way it's been described.

#

The Lore is where my problems lie.

Well, and Eldenroot... That whole art set is just Lothlorien and is not fitting.

#

Maybe if it was an Aldmeri shaped tree, instead of Bosmer...

sweet plume
#

Okay first of all… What is Lothlorien?

#

Because I have no idea what it is your talking about

plain cosmos
#

Lord of the Rings Elves.

uncut hatch
#

So a lot of base game content is... not good comparatively.

sweet plume
#

Which makes me wonder what Falinesti would do as an expansion

uncut hatch
#

Yeah, and unfortunately all of Valenwood is base game.

plain cosmos
#

Those zones are loaded with Lore. And good lore at that.

sweet plume
#

It’s only your opinion and some others that don’t think that it does

plain cosmos
#

I have stipulated that, yes.

uncut hatch
#

Good regions exist, of course, but the base game is just generally not as good compared to expansion lore.

sweet plume
#

It’s Mixed overall, leaning Positively of course

#

It wasn’t the worst ever thing

plain cosmos
#

With a hard turn into lames-town in Valenwood

sweet plume
#

We get it you don’t like Valenwood. XD

plain cosmos
#

Valenwood, Oblivion, or Legends' take on the Great War

uncut hatch
sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

I've heard that claim, but their loremaster was doing interviews before they even had the Beta

edgy rivet
#

Maybe its me but if you have a big franchise like that. Its time for a lore historian...like...that was needed by the time Oblivion hit the stores. But don't mind me 🙃 Bethesda isnt the only one I'm poking fun at.

Edit: Apparently they did... nvm oops

uncut hatch
#

Does this Tyr have a Count Dooku profile picture?

sweet plume
plain cosmos
sweet plume
#

That Looks Man

plain cosmos
#

Games Workshop has done it for almost 30 years

uncut hatch
#

So it's not a real person for their pfp? Was wondering if we knew the same Tyr.

sweet plume
#

Anyway the fact Zenimax and Bethesda are working on ESO lore is good, I think the focus on one major zone each year is good

#

And yes Zenimax does talk regularly with the folks at Bethesda who are Consultants to them

plain cosmos
#

Bethesda shows down Schick's best idea

#

For shame.

sweet plume
#

And what’s that?

plain cosmos
#

That Abnur Tharn would become Zurin Arctus.

sweet plume
#

I… don’t know if that necessarily would have been perfect

uncut hatch
#

It was such a bad idea though. 😭

plain cosmos
#

Nah, disgraced ancient magi from a disposed noble family trying to maintain some sort of close political association with the leadership of a resurgent Empire?

uncut hatch
#

Zurin seems to be in his prime during Tiber's reign, and ESO depicts Abnur as an aging mage.

sweet plume
#

Yeah he’s already getting winded doing spells

plain cosmos
#

We know nothing about Zurin's condition during Tiber's reign.

uncut hatch
#

He gets winded from spells other mages do without a second th-

plain cosmos
#

Beyond him being an accomplished battle mage.

#

We don't actually see Zurin directly, in action, in any media until he's a withered corpse

uncut hatch
#

I doubt Tiber would make an aging mage his battlemage. I doubt the additional 300 years were kind to him if he even lived that much longer.

plain cosmos
#

I'm not actually invested in the idea, I'm mostly just trolling now.

edgy rivet
#

Tiber Septim is...a mystery(Unless you're Nord then he's the best thing ever)

plain cosmos
#

I think Zurin being a Tsaesci or Tsaesci-Human descent mage probably fits better, thematically. Reflecting the trio of influences on Septim and his Empire

#

Nord (Wulfharth) Breton (Tiber) Akaviri (Zurin)

sweet plume
#

Abnur would consider Jagar a Disgrace to his Family

#

Not only that but he doesn’t even have the Moves

obtuse summit
uncut hatch
#

I think Imperial fits that trinity the best.

#

Tsaesci descended Imperial perhaps.

sweet plume
plain cosmos
#

That's the catch. There's nothing Imperial about Tiber Septim.

uncut hatch
#

I'm talking about Zurin.

plain cosmos
#

Oh, fair.

#

Nibanese maybe.

uncut hatch
#

An Imperial, Breton, and Nord being the three who became Talos fits quite well imo.

plain cosmos
#

True. I may be thinking too old, with the Imperials not being a thing...

uncut hatch
#

To be fair, Talos wasn't even a thing back then.

#

He wasn't added until Morrowind.

sweet plume
#

Elder Scrolls was still a wink at the time to what it is now.

uncut hatch
#

Also Imperials existed but weren't a playable race.

sweet plume
#

Same with Orcs

uncut hatch
#

Same with Orcs.

sweet plume
#

Jinx!

uncut hatch
#

And Barenziah wasn't even properly depicted. 😭

#

And the Dirennis were Bretons instead.

plain cosmos
#

Mmhmm

#

Daggerfall was... A problem game, in some ways.

#

Anywho, it's almost midnight. I shall excuse myself and save you all from my sleep deprived fatalism

obtuse summit
#

its early version lore. of course there's not much thought about mantling etc lol.

uncut hatch
#

Yeah, that's something that always needs to be remembered when it comes to franchises with any longevity. Lore is going to change, and sometimes you won't agree with the changes.

#

So you can either begrudgingly accept it or stay infuriated by it forever.

plain cosmos
uncut hatch
#

Living an angry life is not healthy!

plain cosmos
#

Clearly, you don't know how to English.

uncut hatch
#

🤔

#

Where in England is it almost midnight?

obtuse summit
#

anyway, so there nothing in the middle of alk'r desert ?

plain cosmos
#

Nah, I'm in Canada. But I am English by blood.

obtuse summit
#

no town or ruin or whatever ? 🤔

plain cosmos
uncut hatch
plain cosmos
#

There were, in fact thousands of Seiches

obtuse summit
#

what kind ruin in the middle of desert? like pyramid? 🤔

uncut hatch
#

Old Yokudan stuff probably.

#

I can't imagine there isn't anything between Hegathe and Sentinel.

LO-map-Hammerfell_Anthology_1.jpg
edgy rivet
#

Redguards everywhere

uncut hatch
#

Mostly just nomadic groups.

#

Outside of the cities I mean.

obtuse summit
#

old yokudan just exist in... yokuda i think.

#

i mean redguards are not native.

uncut hatch
#

Early Redguard cvilization is still very Yokudan. They probably built stuff.

sweet plume
#

Yokudan’s as a people still exist

uncut hatch
#

Also yeah pyramids exist in Hammerfell. Could be some in the desert.

sweet plume
obtuse summit
#

and maybe mostly they're living near coast,like most all hammerfell cities.

uncut hatch
obtuse summit
#

dragonstar and elinhir sounds like nedic cities rather than redguards. 🤔

uncut hatch
#

They are.

#

Craglorn in general is a lot more Nedic than Redguard.

obtuse summit
#

o yeah, elinhir seems great city for mage headquarter.

#

with nedic element.

uncut hatch
#

It's been taken over by a rogue group of mages in ESO. Pretty neat.

#

Blackcaster Mages Guild or something.

glacial scarab
velvet whale
#

Do the Daedric Princess know what happened to the Dwemer? Does Hermaeus Mora know?