#elder-scrolls-general-chat

1 messages · Page 48 of 1

dim reef
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why did bethesda make angi but then every other skill trainer they just went "nah dude, press x"?

magic tundra
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maybe 11/11/11
maybe it wasn't intended for other trainers to be like that in the first place, and angi is just a side quest with a skill reward (as so many are)

dim reef
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does anyone buy the theory that the protagonist of each game is affected by divine intervention?

dim reef
dim reef
dim reef
weak sapphire
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Ok, i need input on something

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Jeff Waynes Thunderchild... Or Sabaton's Final Solution?

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I need something emotional to listen to tonight

weak sapphire
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It's a

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"remember i'm still human" night

dim reef
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Is glass armor that we see in skyrim of nord design or aldmeri design? Because every game has its armor/weapons designed based on the province. But glass armor is mostly used by high elves in skyrim.

weak sapphire
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Altmer

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Just like Ebony is actually Dunmeri design

dim reef
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So the ebony armor we see in skyrim is of dunmer design?

weak sapphire
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Yeah

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Gah-Julan style, in fact

dim reef
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Never knew.

weak sapphire
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God dammit bot...

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You can see the similarities in the strucutre of the shoulders, the breastplate, and the helmet

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And the gauntlets

dim reef
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Yeah i suppose so.

weak sapphire
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Skyrim's Ebony is basically the more expensive version of Morrowind's Bonemold Gah-Julan

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Like, the rank and file wear the Bonemold. The House Nobles wear the Ebony

twin sentinel
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not sure about Oblivion

magic tundra
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pretty sure morrowind's was dunmeri

gray mesa
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Didn't look like a very Dunmeri design to me

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Then again, the Skyrim Ebony armor doesn't look Dunmeri to me either.
Like yeah, you have a slight touch on the shoulders and helmet, but it lacks that alien look.

stoic fiber
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"Raw glass is similar to raw ebony, but less well-known. Ebony is jet black, while glass is a milky translucent green. Less durable, but much lighter and more flexible than ebony, glass is used primarily to make the distinctive, elegant glass armors and weapons of High Elven design."

dim reef
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I think morrowind’s glass was dunmer made. Altmer originally made it and were secretive about how to make it but some dude found the blueprints and made their own

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Can’t remember who that was though

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I’ll look him up I guess

oblique quiver
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Morrowind's glass armor is now heavily associated with the Buoyant Armigers, thanks to ESO

dim reef
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The uesp just says it was some dunmer slave who took the knowledge from summerset on how to make glass armour >_>

twin sentinel
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in any case the material is uniquely Dunmeri, or rather Vvardenfellian (sp?)

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skyrim's glass armor is malachite, not volcanic glass iirc

dim reef
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Isn’t malachite also volcanic glass?

twin sentinel
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I don't think so, unless TES malachite is different from ours

magic tundra
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well, Ebony is...

dim reef
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But like, there might be ebony trees in Tamriel

eager remnant
weak sapphire
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The Ebony Armour in Morrowind is probably Imperial in design

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I say this, because at the time all Ebony legally belonged to the Emperor, so the number of smiths permitted in working it was probably pretty controlled.

weak sapphire
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In Oblivion, it is absolutely Imperial in design, and it bears more similarities to Morrowinds Ebony than any other version of the armour

magic tundra
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according to ESO, Skyrim's ebony style is a mixture of Dunmer, Nord, and even Daedric of obscure origins

weak sapphire
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Well, the Skyrim Concept Artbook says Dunmeri 😛

magic tundra
weak sapphire
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Fair enough.

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I suspect it is Chimeri in origin, and influenced both the Nords and later Dunmer.

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IF i were to write my suspected developmental path for the style, it would be early Chimeri, during the same period as their use of the so-called Daedric Architecture. Mimicing the chitinous plate structures of the wildlife of their new promised land, the aggressive shapes of various Daedric styles, and the material restrictions of Ebony, they developed a style of armour which was both elegant and brutal, fitting with their new ideology.

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Of course, centuries of conflict with Nords would mean some elements of that armour would catch on with their neighbours as well. And the mimiced style of the local wildlife meant that whent he Chimer and later Dunmer transitioned to Chitin as a material, it bore similarities to the older Ebony as well

twin sentinel
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talking about styles, what does everyone make of the similarities between Morrowind Orcish armor and various Akaviri-inspired styles in Skyrim and ESO?

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as much as I wanted MW Orcish to remain the Orcish, I guess it could be explained that the Orsimer designed their armor in the style of the Akaviri Potentates, who gave Orsinium the status of a province. but I have nothing in-game to support this

narrow hull
twin sentinel
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nothing is solidified, the styles are different in every game

narrow hull
twin sentinel
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Oblivion's Orcish armor is different still, looking more Mongolian

narrow hull
twin sentinel
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and ESO has like, a handful of Orcish styles, though none of them fit Morrowind's

narrow hull
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Yeah

twin sentinel
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nor Skyrim's really, at least in terms of material

narrow hull
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The clothes are Mongolian-ish I think

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In ESO

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Skyrim had a much stronger cultural impact than Oblivion and Morrowind, though, so I imagine the more iconic designs in it like the orcish armor and stronghold, the dwemer ruins, to stay similar to it rather than changing wildly in the next game like in the previous iterations

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And indeed ESO took upon those designs and expanded them

twin sentinel
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ESO has so many styles, they have drawn from pretty much every TES game by now

narrow hull
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I assume the same will follow in the next TES game. They'll just refine these iconic designs rather than change.

twin sentinel
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and for TES6, I expect BGS to start from scratch in their designs as they usually do

narrow hull
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The base versions of both in ESO are clearly mainly inspired from Skyrim

twin sentinel
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inspired maybe, but they all look pretty different from Skyrim's versions

narrow hull
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Obviously lol I never said they were the same

twin sentinel
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I wish we had Skyrim's Orcish in ESO, I don't really like any we have rn

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or Forsworn

narrow hull
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But it's a different version of the same design, rather than something else entirely that doesn't even look like it should be connected like Oblivion's dwemer armor compared to Skyrim's

flint quail
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you know given how tribal orcs are you'd expect each stronghold to have some unique twist on their armor.

twin sentinel
narrow hull
twin sentinel
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Orcs are pretty different all over Tamriel

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maybe you can consider Skyrim's one of the originals, Orcs have been in Skyrim longer than Nords

flint quail
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That's all true and the differences between stronghold armor designs probably wouldn't be that dramatic but with how much pride the orcs have in their work you'd expect something like a manufacturer's Mark

twin sentinel
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sure, I suppose that's just up to the limitations of game development

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I wonder how they will handle armor styles in TES6 anyway

flint quail
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Yeah that's true, it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to have six different versions of the exact same armor with the only difference being like how the spikes are arranged or something

twin sentinel
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I could see them taking a page out of ESO's book and separating style and material, if they improve crafting in general

flint quail
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Could do.
Honestly with how Bethesda has done improvements in the past they might take that idea and marry it with 76's Outfit system

twin sentinel
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havent looked into that yet, is it like ESO's outfit system?

flint quail
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Sorta.
Basically the armor and the outfit are different pieces.

It would be like having the ability to wear a merchant's clothing over your leather armor.

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It doesn't change the appearance of the armor, it's a separate item with it's own stats.

twin sentinel
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yeah, I see

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I somewhat doubt they'd go that route for a single player game, but who knows. Starfield might hold some insights there

weak sapphire
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Crafting in general needs a major overhaul. Not just for Armour, but for Weapons, Alchemy, Enchanting etc.

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Its working on basic principles 20 years old, and hasn't been updated to new approaches or technology

flint quail
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true

weak sapphire
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using modern meshing, texturing and animation IK solvers allow you to include an immense amount of potential variability without compromising actual gameplay or preformance

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You could literally break Armour and equipment up into literal component pieces and make the entire thing customisable, while snapping to a normal skeleton for animations

dim reef
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i don't mind the styles changing over each installment, after all different smiths have different ways they make armor and weapons, even if they're the same culturally. plus, time also changes things. a tank made in 1952 isn't the same in 1962, even if made by the same people.

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basically, so long as they're mostly the same and are culturally fitting, it's cool. plus, it can get boring seeing the same thing but just better graphics.

weak sapphire
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Yeah. As a general rule, i would rather that all of the styles in a game be built around the province it's in

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Like, in Hammerfell, the overwhelming majority of armours, clothing and weapons should be inspired by the Redguard culture and it's various divisions

flint quail
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Unless its imported from another province. Like how the Dominion and Legion soldiers bring in their own armor, it should look like it came from the lands it came from.

weak sapphire
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Yeah

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But those should be limited and have an explanation for them

dim reef
dim reef
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Whoever thought it'd be a good idea that containers aren't separated into categories and then it isn't even in alphabetical order can suck it.

weak sapphire
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There are a lot of organizational grievances i have with the asset sets...

dim reef
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Hello!
I've got a question:
if you want to start the game with a friend, is it doable?
(like same fractions, and when u do the quests together in party, will it save for both?)
Sorry, I looked in the internet and didnt find anything, but I'll be happy for answers!!

twin sentinel
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which game? ESO?

dim reef
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yesss

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sorry for not mentioning eso xd

magic tundra
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the game other than ESO you can play together (without mods) is Battlespire... xD

twin sentinel
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questing in groups is inconsistent IIRC. things like dailies are usually shared, but story-focused quests don't seem to be

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but other than that you can play together pretty much everywhere no problem

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factions only matter for PvP in Cyrodiil

dim reef
dim reef
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but thank you :D

magic tundra
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ESO is a full-blown MMO
you each have to take quests separately, but you can accompany each other on most quests (and in most cases, it doesn't even matter wether both of you have the quest active or just one of you).

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the Alliances matter in terms of Alliance war (large-scale PvP), and where the "main quest" and certain guild quests take place - but for the most part, these quests are solo anyway.

dim reef
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but can we each take a story quest while in a party (if thats a thing)

magic tundra
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you can do the zone stories together, yes

dim reef
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I see

magic tundra
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you have to be careful about choices when doing quests together

dim reef
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I have arachnophobia, do you recommend this game for me? wut

twin sentinel
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no.

dim reef
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aigh

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thas why i wanted to play it together with a friend-

twin sentinel
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unless you can handle the occasional spider mob

magic tundra
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there are some spiders

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in greatly differing sizes xD

dim reef
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yee i saw once that there is a big, big spider boss

magic tundra
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there are several...

dim reef
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Why adding spiders in games anyway.. Scared

magic tundra
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because you need enemies?

twin sentinel
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because they make better enemies than cute puppies lol

magic tundra
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if you took away every enemy someone would have a bias against, there'd be nothing left...

dim reef
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well in Tes V there's the anti spider mod-

spice whale
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there's big bad Spider Goddess Mephala and several cults worshipping her \o/

dim reef
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lmao, my playlist just rickrolled me

dim reef
magic tundra
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and some spiders fully independent from mephala... xD

twin sentinel
dim reef
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thank you Smile

weak sapphire
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I have a friend who also has arachnophobia, and has found both ESO and WoW to be manageable. It's not for everyone, but the 3rd person perspective apparently helps there. My suggestion would be to look up some videos of encounters in-game with spider enemies, and see how you react.

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With support present, of course. Don't overdo yourself.

dim reef
dim reef
spice whale
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since when does ESO's intro tease us with Ada-Mantia? O__ o Video with Prophet's narration

twin sentinel
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which intro?

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ada-mantia was added as the tutorial zone today afaik

magic tundra
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Since today
Today has been the great update

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If you start a new character, the tutorial takes you to the adamantine tower, too

spice whale
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ah, that makes sense. Im still doing prologue quest

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hm, yeah, should try a new char too

spice whale
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yaaay, ESO now has customizable followers. Naked Mirri everywhere..

raw leaf
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This is the "new player overhaul" so you really get a feel for the game

sinful junco
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today's update is pretty slow for some reason

narrow hull
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Is the new intro on youtube?

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Too lazy to update my ESO

weak sapphire
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Yes

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And Dagon is actally kinda not total garbage as a Daedra for a change

twin sentinel
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In what way? I played the mainquest on the PTS but didn't buy the chapter, might have missed something.

gaunt sapphire
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​Greetings everyone!

We just launched our ESO Clock online tool based on in-game server time, which is designed to help you determine whether it is the right time to go hunting werewolf & vampire bites, stealing in-game, or complete a certain time-based quest without the need to log in to the game and checking the time of day in-game.

ESO Clock is available here:
https://mythiq.net/game-companion/esoclock/

magic tundra
spice whale
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i wonder why they stopped writing new bard songs for DLCs, though

weak sapphire
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And to be honest, after the runny shart of Oblivion, its kind of refreshing.

twin sentinel
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oh yeah, I remember that part ... tbh the main quest kinda fizzled out towards the end for me, but I think the Deadlands DLC in Q4 might be better. hopefully it really digs into Dagon lore.

scarlet mango
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should TES bring back attributes

spice whale
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i actually like the idea of Attributes, but, in a manner of SPECIAL system from F76. You get a limited number of attributes, limited perks, but can respec any time. So neat! Mere leveling won't make you overpowered and there's always room to grow

twin sentinel
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^ yeah this. don't need 100+ in every attribute in the old TES style

scarlet mango
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tbh, what's really simply needed is a level-cap. even with skyrim's streamlined approach, it'll give much more characterization to a player

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attributes are nice, but what is Strength giving that One Handed isnt? it's still more damage. sure, dialogue checks, but TES wasnt much built on those.

weak sapphire
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Attributes are kind of a mixed bag for me

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Like, the CONCEPTS behind htem are good, but i have yet to see a good implementation of them.

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I actually think that tying them directly into Skyrim's sort of Perk System would be the perfect approach, allowing you to represent the specificity of the concepts (do arm curls and you get stronger arms, but it's not going to help you carry a heavier backpack unless you make sure not to miss Leg Day) while also serving as a general tracker and gating mechanism for other, non-skill related bonuses (like Carryweight)

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For insance, you buy a level of the Armsman Perk. It increases your Strength by 1, and basically represents you getting better at swinging hard.

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And every level of Strong Back (increase carry weight) requires you to have 1/2 additional strength. So you're using Skill-Perks to increase your Attributes, which open up new Non-Skill-Perks.

weak sapphire
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Yes, as @eager remnant can vouch, i have put waaaay too much through into gameplay mechanics for future TES games

spice whale
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could use extra pair of ears here. I don't see any info online regarding ESO's Mirri Elendis voice actress. She sounds a bit like female Hawke from DA2, but i can't be sure

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Jo Wyatt's her name, checked her igdb page, ESO isn't there

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she also did Ciri? oh my

eager remnant
weak sapphire
mental elbow
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Where can we expect to pick up ESO companion gear? Is it just RNG from things we loot in world?

magic tundra
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yes
you can buy white one from merchants, but all better quality one is random loot

dim reef
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after listening to all of the elder scrolls' themes, i personally feel like the majority of elder scrolls 6 will take place in high rock with possibly some exploration in hammerfell or dlc taking us to hammerfell.

weak sapphire
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I lean more Hammerfell, myself

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Which is a shame, because i'm bored to tears with human provinces.

dim reef
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well the main theme has more nods to daggerfall, which...well dominantly took place more in high rock. but with it also having some nods to redguard's theme and daggerfall the game taking place in hammerfell too, it's likely it's both. not too sure, but to me it just sounds more high rock-ish.

weak sapphire
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I don't have that keen an ear for music, so can't comment on that

barren pebble
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I like how we got so little from the trailer so we have to debate what the music could show for the game

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I mean nothing wrong with that tho

dim reef
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eh.

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personally i always loved how the general theme is the same with different instruments for the province it focuses on.

weak sapphire
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May not be so much anymore, with Soule seemingly off the table

dim reef
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i don't think you'd need the same guy on the field to make the same sounding music.

weak sapphire
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No, but they may try to shift the soundtrack into a new era and distance themsevles from any drama

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Battlespire still has the best theme though

dim reef
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i don't think so they will, personally.

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the guy's fired, that's basically all that's needed. plus everyone loves the themes.

weak sapphire
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Oh, i don't think so either, but i've been surprised before

dim reef
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i'd love for more treasure variety in the elder scrolls 6. keep candlesticks and valuable plates, but also add religious statues and ancient coins and such. that'd be great for dungeon delving.

cinder idol
weak sapphire
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i think a big part of the removal of mobile light sources stems from just how difficult good lighting is to pull off in traditional engines

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Once Ray Tracing becomes more main stream, i suspect you'll see them back in force

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Because Ray Tracing is killer when it comes to lighting

dim reef
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supposed starfield leaks seems to show that the updated creation engine has pretty stellar lighting.

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it was said that the creation engine's upgrade is comparison like morrowind to oblivion, which was pretty huge.

weak sapphire
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Potato Head Flashbacks*

sweet hollow
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I hope that Elder Scrolls 6 allows for ability like skills to return.

It would be awesome to have wall climbing implemented (similar to Breath of The Wild's climbing.)

Also being able to effect the environment with magic would be cool. Like burning foliage, freezing water, or cutting down trees to make traps?

weak sapphire
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A lot of that is going to be dependent on the engine

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And, well... Bethesda can't even figure out Ladders

dim reef
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Lovely little detail in skyrim; if you already found the first or second word of whirlwind sprint, arngeir will say such, and say master borri will teach you the second or third word respectively.

unkempt terrace
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I hope TES 6 has a few parts of the story where your decisions affect the plot. I’ve seen this in a bunch of games and it’s always a plus, aids immersion a bit

dim reef
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eh... i disagree. the elder scrolls only had one game that really had your actions affect the plot, that being daggerfall.

narrow hull
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Well, there's Morrowind, with no essential characters and the main plot can be resolved even if you kill them all

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🤔

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But if you do kill essential characters you can break many quests and you're just supposed to live with those consequences

stoic fiber
weak sapphire
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I'm also on the hard pass side of that... Choice Driven Narratives have always made a game worse in my mind.

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There are some ways you can implement it, but if you're going to do that sort of dynamic, i'd rather multiple parallel paths rather than a bunch of different endings

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The lack of permanence mutually exclusive endings have ultimately strips everything you do of any meaning for me.

dim reef
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The "you can beat morrowind even if you kill everyone" thing always bothers me. Since, one, the game outright tells you to reload a save. Two, a first time player would not even know they can still beat it.

magic tundra
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the game not telling you it doesn't make it less true

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although you still need to keep yagrum alive (and I think fyr, too)

dim reef
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Also i fully agree with lach.

Skyrim and prior elder scrolls games (namely morrowind and oblivion) has always had it where side quests would occasionally give you a branching path, while the main story was always rather straight forward.

It makes the experience as a whole better imo. It's like when fallout 3 gave you the choice to poison the water or nuke the citadel. Sure it's nice to have a choice, but like...these choices are so out of the blue and hurt the main plot.

Also @SarthesArai#3947 i didn't say it makes it not true. I said it's a bad argument/defense.

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also imo branching quest paths are more impactful.

magic tundra
# stoic fiber Tis what we want!

keep in mind that there are other things out there that could quest relevant characters, locking players out of questlines without them being able to influence it

weak sapphire
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Consider the most memorable and emotionally engaging moments in gaming.

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I can't think of a single one that came from a Player Driven Choice. Because the shared experiences of structured storytelling makes it so we all see and experience the same thing, and can thus relate to it

stoic fiber
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TES should be imo, the same wish of Vivec's: Radical Freedom. Morrowind (and maybe Daggerfall) were really the only games that truly depicted that. You are shot into the world and given the "good luck!" path. And you can do the good ol main quest or you can go off doing bugger all. You can go around murder-hoboing. But there are consequences. Personally the environment-killing-quest-NPC never happened to me outside of Skyrim when I downloaded AllKillableNPCs mod which honestly I wasn't bothered lol. I find the joys or (role)playing in doom timelines as well.

dim reef
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I heavily disagree. The idea "all npcs should be killable" or "we should not at all help you starting out" is just...not fun.

If you want to be a murderhobo go play a game meant for that. If you don't want any help at all...go play a game for that.

Essential npcs are fine. And are far less than people make them out to be. And a game "hand holding" you is fine as well...because that's welcoming to the player.

weak sapphire
dim reef
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It never adds anything. People seemingly want it just for "muh immersion". Well...make us pee and sh*t too.

weak sapphire
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Immersion is a funny thing to. It differs from person to person, and is really hard to design for

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Like, sure. We all live in a world where we can kill anyone we want.

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But, most of us don't WANT to kill anyone, and never will. So how is giving people the free ability to kill people in a game really adding anything? It's not something a normal person would do anyway

stoic fiber
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It's less about going serial murder nor über Immersion with period cycles, but rather making the world feel alive. Sure we are the Hero and the Wheel spins around us, but the beauty is when you know that the world is out there living their life. Some merchant is selling bread or an alchemist just got robbed while we are on the other side of the land, killing zombies for the 16th time. It ent for all I get that, but for many, it was in the little things like finding an random unscripted dead body on your way to Gnisis or being in a dungeon in Daggerfall and hearing "A bandit just died somewhere". Most often come the joys of freedom by merely having it, not fully using it.

weak sapphire
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Which would be all well and could if there were a single AI system on the planet that could actually react to that. But there isn't. And not only does it not exist, but tying in the necessary consequences to those sorts of actions that would actually add weight and meaning to them, and thus make them feel alive, would so heavily discourage them that you might as well not have them at all.

dim reef
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Oblivion and skyrim feel more alive than even rdr2 and those games have essential npcs. And even worse if i'm reading this right, is finding out you "failed" a quest because someone killed an npc.

Yeah, games being "alive" or "immersive" is great and all...but it's also a game. No one wants to fail a quest because some dude across the map walked outside the city and died.

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Also... Literally you have what you want with essential npcs. Draugr can literally kill bandits unscripted while exploring a dungeon. You can find a body on the side of the road...unscripted. People in whiterun are selling bread...while you aren't there.

This does not need to have killable everyone.

barren pebble
cinder idol
clever falcon
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Huh. Bretons have hot air balloons.

gray mesa
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I guess they should only be killable by the player, not every creature.
But if I want to role-play a ruthless killer the game should allow it.
Freedom to players is important, especially in RPGs.

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TES not having a lot of choice for RPG standards usually is one of the biggest criticisms of the franchise.
I think that should change.

dim reef
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...it doesn't add to the roleplaying. At all. What aspect does it add to your character? You can't do a quest?

Also...the elder scrolls has a lot of choice. And rpg doesn't even inherently mean "choices". Heck when crpgs were first made, choice was not a factor.

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Also...you can still roleplay as a ruthless killer in skyrim or oblivion.

gray mesa
dim reef
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The example i was making was a random npc dying with no one around. This was a problem i had with new vegas. Some random ncr dipstick died in the other side of the map, and i missed out on like 3 quests.

gray mesa
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Hell, in one of my first Oblivion playthroughs I would play as a serial killer that would eradicate entire villages at night, but he was stopped from doing so thanks to the essential characters.
Recently did that again with a mod that disables essential characters and it was so much fun.
Yes, it locks me out of quests, so?
If I play a character that doesn't really care about helping others it doesn't matter.
I want the option to be able to play such a character.

dim reef
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...a quest giver dying on the other side of the map not even where you are...is not fun.

gray mesa
dim reef
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Also the elder scrolls isn't a murderhobo fantasy.

gray mesa
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It was called "protected", instead of "essential" NPC

dim reef
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"Oh no i don't get a quest". What a consequence.

gray mesa
cinder idol
dim reef
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The ability to kill everyone adds nothing mechanically or narratively.

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The fact people have this preconceived notion "rpg" means "i can do whatever" really f*cking bothers me. Especially in discussions like this.

gray mesa
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It does add mechanically,literally everything I just said.
It also adds to personal narrative, just not to the Bethesda curated one.

dim reef
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You know, i have had many personal narratives...without killing everyone.

gray mesa
dim reef
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This discussion is going nowhere.

gray mesa
dim reef
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"Such a narrative". Cringey murderhobos aren't really a narrative.

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Also...again...you can kill a lot of people in skyrim. So what if a few aren't?

cinder idol
# gray mesa It does add mechanically,literally everything I just said. It also adds to perso...

True. In games when I grew up you could kill a plot important NPC but then the marines with you would turn their guns on you as a voice in your headset states your character has gone rogue. You're supposed to die after that decision but it's better than said charactertaking 200 rounds in the back of the head without batting an eye or getting back up to continue a conversation on what the big bad is doing.

gray mesa
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Again, it's great you don't like serial killer narratives.
Shouldn't lock others out of such narratives.
I consider serial killer OCs cringy as well generally, but can't deny that it's a fun thing to do for one playthrough.

dim reef
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Then do it. You can literally still do it.

gray mesa
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I'm restricted from it, unless I use mods.

dim reef
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No you aren't.

cinder idol
dim reef
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You can kill nazeem, ysolda, your companions, etc.

cinder idol
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Not braith or the other children (why did they make the kids so annoying? Do they know of their immortality?)

gray mesa
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I don't want to that just to just be restricted to some NPCs. I don't need a curated experience that limits what I can do.
What's so hard to understand about just wanting to have the option to kill quest relevant NPCs, no matter if I will use the option or not.

dim reef
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Because the option is dumb, needless, and doesn't do anything for you. What happens if you kill everyone? Just...make a new character? You can't do anything after.

It's a very f*cking dumb and useless option that just adds dumb and useless work for the devs.

If you want to murder everyone, go play a game that does that.

gray mesa
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Again, I guess maybe the NPCs should go KO first with a warning and if you continue attacking after that the NPC will die.
That way you don't risk accidentally destroying your save.
There is absolutely nothing negative to having that feature.

stoic fiber
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I repeat it again once more. It is not about hooha murder fantasy. It is about unristricted freedom to allow one to build their own story, with each play through, something unique, filled with consequences. You dont have to do all quests every playthrough everytime. One playthrough I am a Mage and in the middle of a shop, an old man died, oh no! What caused this? Sure, I cannot do this old mans "plz pay my taxes" quest but it doesnt matter, because this event has added to my personal story. But again, it is clear that this discussion no longer has point as we are just going "This is what RPG/TES means for me! Its not that!"

dim reef
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Again this is going nowhere. I disagree heavily and doubt it'd ever happen.

cinder idol
gray mesa
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Yeah, the murder fantasy was just an example.
Doubt I will play such an OC often.

gray mesa
dim reef
dim reef
gray mesa
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I don't think I have ever killed an essential NPC in Morrowind, but it's great that I CAN do that.
For some reason in Morrowind I always play friendly characters.
In New Vegas less so I suppose.

gray mesa
dim reef
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...bruh. You can still play as a murderer. There's literally an entire guild dedicated to it. You are still allowed the freedom.

cinder idol
# dim reef This can literally happen with essential npcs as a thing.

Not really if you get into a fight with an abraisive guy, you hit him with your sword that crackles with flame, a sword that has killed a literal god. He gets cut open and loses enough blood to be pronounced dead as he drops to the floor, his heartbeat stopping. As you turn around he gets up not a scratch on him and cuts you with his iron dagger. Your immersion is broken as you notice the words "Brimble Barpton is unconscious" in the top left of your screen.

gray mesa
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The DB is a pretty carefully curated experience. It's a written quest.
It's not "My character hates that NPC and so wants to kill them"

dim reef
gray mesa
dim reef
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That's great.

cinder idol
gray mesa
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As long as the player has the ability to kill whatever NPC they want.

dim reef
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...i'm just done. Again this is getting nowhere.

gray mesa
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I do like the "Protected NPC" mechanic from Skyrim. It's exactly what I described.
Just should completely replace essential NPC.

cinder idol
dim reef
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There's nothing i want more than accidentally killing a quest character.

gray mesa
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I offered the solution of them going KO first and you then receiving a warning that if you continue attacking the NPC you will get locked out of a quest.

dim reef
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Protected doesn't do that. It kills them.

cinder idol
gray mesa
#

Kinda combines protected NPCs, Oblivion essential NPCs and the Morrowind warning in one thing to offer the player freedom of choice, while still keeping them from accidentally ruining a quest.

dim reef
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I don't want to see a warning. You both talk about "muh immersion" and a huge warning is the last thing i want because it legitimately breaks immersion.

gray mesa
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I have never once mentioned immersion...

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Also I don't think it's less immersive that an NPC just crawling on their knees after you attacked them, just getting up and being impossible to defeat.
If I wanted immersion I would want NPCs to be killable by every creature, no exceptions.
Something I do find interesting for some playthroughs, but here I at least understand why people would be bothered by the feature.

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It's not about immersion for me, it's about having the option to kill an NPC if my OC wants them dead. That's all.

dim reef
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A message is much more immersive breaking. One is a character being downed, another is a meta statement.

gray mesa
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One is something directly happening in the world, the other is a UI message.

dim reef
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...yes. That's...that's what i just said.

gray mesa
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Idk about you, but for me things in the world have a far bigger impact on immersion than UI.
UI is just a tool for the players.
Seeing a health bar doesn't break immersion either, at least for me.

dim reef
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...

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"RELOAD YOUR SAVE!!! YOU'RE PLAYING A GAME!!" doesn't break your immersion at all?

gray mesa
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You're referring to Morrowind's message, not the one I suggested and exaggerating it as well.
But yeah even then, it's a message directed at the player, nothing happening in the actual world.
Everything in the UI is just directed at the player and makes it obvious that it's a game.

dim reef
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It's immersion breaking. I don't want a meta message.

gray mesa
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I might add again that being able to kill NPCs isn't important for me because immersion

gray mesa
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But here we have again, a personal preference.
You clearly see UI and gameworld as very differently than I do.

dim reef
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Completely different. Those are the character realizing "this isn't safe/i don't know what this does".

The message you suggest (which is f*cking unnecessary) is "hey player, you're playing a game. You attacked a quest giver...could you not?"

gray mesa
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The character wouldn't have an idea that there is still a creature nearby wherever he's resting, unless he has some supernatural sense.
If they were at least written in first person they might be somewhat Immersive, but so it just looks like the game telling the player something

#

Also you are again exaggerating the Morrowind message.

dim reef
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A message is not needed. Just have the npc go down.

gray mesa
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Fair, as long as you can still kill the NPC when they're down.

#

I guess the NPC going down could be an Immersive way to message the player that they maybe shouldn't kill the NPC. Makes sense.

weak sapphire
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I will preface this first by; I hate New Vegas. As far as i am concerned, it is a bunch of words i will get banned for saying on here. It is a totally worthless game and deserves to be unceremoniously tossed overboard in the middle of the pacific. As such, out of pure contempt, anything New Vegas does i am inherently inclined to do the opposite.

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deep breath It's ok, calm down. Find your center...

All of that said, any time you're looking at gameplay dynamics, your first question should be "What purpose does it serve?"

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The general stance on being able to kill anyone is "Well it's realistic". Sure, but so is being laid up for 3 months after a broken leg. Do you want that in your game? I suspect we all know the answer. Realism it's self is not a justification for gameplay in most cases.

So, the second point is some variant of "It gives the player control" be it of their actions, the world, their choices, or their story. And this is true, but it comes with it's own complications.

For instance, yes, being able to just kill an annoying NPC gives you control, but to what end. The NPC is now dead. Is that it? The NPC is no longer alive?

gray mesa
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Which I answered. Giving the player the freedom to do what their OC would do in a situation

weak sapphire
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But without a way for the game to actually react to that action, the action is pretty meaningless. And handling those reactions is a lot more complicated than it seems at face value.

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Just look at Crime in TES. It's meaningless. It's less than meaningless, it's an absolute joke. Murder half of Whiterun and pay a fine, that's it. As a technicality, yes, there is a reaction to your actions, but it's such a laughably pathetic reaction it might as well not exist

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if you murder someone and are now on the run from the law for the rest of your life, that's something else... But is that fun? Does that really add anything interesting to gameplay?

gray mesa
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It would obviously be preferable if it affected how NPCs interact with you, if just lowering disposition, but it's understandable if that's not doable.
Still no big reaction is preferable to not being able to do it.

weak sapphire
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Well, in that at least we'll have to agree to disagree. If a mechanic has no function beyond it's own existence, then it has not place being there as far as i'm converned

gray mesa
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Like you said yourself with crime. The crime system isn't very developed, but you still should be able to commit crimes and get a bounty for it, even if it is a rather laughable reaction

weak sapphire
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I used crime as an example, because it's so superficial that i don't think it has any value what so ever

gray mesa
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Pretty much. Still feels better than Witcher 3 were you can just rob entire homes with the family watching and nobody cares.
I rather have the superficial bounty system from Skyrim than that.

#

Committing crimes against guild members getting you kicked out of the guild like in Morrowind and Oblivion is also decent, not sure if Skyrim has that.

weak sapphire
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See, they're so superficial i don't even draw the line. There's no penalty in Skyrim beyond inconenience. Might as well be a stern finger waging

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It's sort of like how Morrowind handled weapons. There's no reason to have all those Weapon Skills, when all Weapons behave the same way anyway

#

It's just extra windowdressing with no substance

#

Could you give it substance? Sure. And one day that may be justified. But i think there are bigger things to prioritise first.

gray mesa
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I think we have very different ways to approach games then.
I LOVE that Morrowind has so many weapon skills. Gives me more different OCs to build.
What if the weapons handle similarly?
If I want a character specialized in using spears and another specialized in using daggers it's good that the game gives the options.
By your way to approach things, the system could be streamlined further into just meele weapons and marksman. Really something TES doesn't need further streamlined.
I'm not a meta gamer. I do not really care about the usefulness of game mechanics, I role-play. I use medium armor all the time in Morrowind even though it's the least effective armor class. It's just the one that fits my OC the best.
When I play a thief OC the OC does not want to be caught by guards and get into prison, no matter if these aren't really that terrible consequences.
The fact that they're there gives me motivation to be careful about it.

dim reef
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Ngl morrowind separating blade into long and short blade was so unnecessary.

gray mesa
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Based on what you say you seem to approach TES from a more meta gaming approach and do not really see the role-playing part. Which I can understand is not for everyone.

weak sapphire
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It could, sure. But the emphasis should be on meaningful differences, not superficial ones.

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For instance, yes. You could have a single Melee skill. No problem with that. But you then use Perks to make it so you have multiple ways to BUILD that skill.

gray mesa
weak sapphire
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With Morrowind's system, every Marksman is the same. With Skyrim's system (even though poorly executed as most things Bethesda does) you can have a dozen different Marksmen

gray mesa
weak sapphire
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That's the thing, very little was actually removed, and a bunch of things were added

#

For instance, yes, Skyrim has fewer Weapon Skills than previous games...

#

But each weapon type actually has functional differences. Not great ones, but especially with the Perks, they're actual meaninfgul ones

dim reef
weak sapphire
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I thought that way for awhile, but as i played with systems more my stance changed. Perks, as they function in Skyrim, are where you can really create build diversity and good character development

#

For instance, lets look at this from the perspective of a Melee Weapon Skill.

dim reef
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Yes. Sure. And it works fine in skyrim, but it isn't what I'd prefer. Because in reality skyrim only has 3 perks for your build in the one handed skill. If you choose blades, you get a perk with only 2 ranks then a second perk with only 1 rank. Maybe if there were more perks with new abilities for a build i'd agree.

weak sapphire
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True, i'm talking mostly about the actual potential of the system in Skyrim, not how it was used

#

But, consider 1-Handed Weapon. Within that single Skill, you can offer 3 Basic 'bonuses'. Armsman (increased damage) Riposte (Increased Speed) and Precision (increased Critical Chance). Even if you give each of these 5 levels, that means a MINIMUM of level 15 to unlock them all, and that's not including the room for Perks specialising in particular types of weapons (whihc under such a system can accomodate more subtle difference such as the diference ebtween a Rapier and a Cutlass).

gray mesa
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If crime actually had major consequences, weapons would handle entirely different etc, that would be the perfect world, but just streamlining stuff out of the game isn't the way to do it.

weak sapphire
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True, but in terms o the latter, Skyrim actually does allow for that

gray mesa
weak sapphire
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Well, again... Attributes didn't really go away, they just changed expression

dim reef
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Speed, agility, luck, etc. weren't changed.

gray mesa
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Most of them are gone.

weak sapphire
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Armsman is, for isntance, Strength. it's just the specific application, rather than locking it all into a seperate stat

dim reef
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Also everyone whines about spellcrafting being removed... Oh well.

gray mesa
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You can only raise health, magica and stanima/carry weight

weak sapphire
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Which again,has far more potential than the old Attribute system

gray mesa
#

Can't change your jump height or walking speed, which was the most fun there

dim reef
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Lach you're going for a utilitarian viewpoint. Which...well frankly most players don't like.

gray mesa
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Luck I understand becoming irrelevant in nowadays system

weak sapphire
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That's been part of the wider lesson i've picked up from these sorts of discussions over the last decade.

#

I was going to break the whole thing down, but you know what? I already did that elsewhere, so i'm just going to toss in the link...

gray mesa
#

We have clearly completely different things we want from games

#

Seems like it at least

weak sapphire
gray mesa
#

So I suppose this won't go anywhere

weak sapphire
#

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/7898783-lachdonins-rpg-rambling/

The Nexus Forums
Lachdonin's RPG Rambling - General Skyrim Discussion

Lachdonin's RPG Rambling - posted in General Skyrim Discussion: This has been a long time in coming, and Ive been trying to figure out some better format for it through different sites, but to no avail. So, back to the tried and tested.This is going to exist primarily because its a formatting set which i know will accomplish what i want, and kno...

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It's like a Pixel. Talking about a single pixel doesn't really give you any perspective on the whole image. And each point by point system and mechanic doesn't really give you context on how it all comes together

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Like, don't get me wrong. I think all the concepts behind Attributes, Skill Divisions, even Classes and Birthsigns have value. But their execution hasn't been good.

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The traditional approaches have too much baggage from the tabletop, which is a different medium with different strengths and limitations.

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Starting from the base concept, and building a better system in the video game medium, offers far more potential. And weirdly, Skyrim stands right on the edge of that potential.

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As an example, look at Armour. The traditional Light-Medium-Heavy Armour dynamic makes sense at first glance, right?

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And on a Tabletop, it is entirely functional. It would be too difficult to manage a more realistic weight-encumberance scaling with a pen and paper, so using explicit groupings streamlines the process and makes it managable.

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But in a video game, you can handle all that background math and scaling automatically. So, the main justification for those goupings disappears. In order to justify it, games typically Class or Stat-Lock armours, or attach explicit encumberance factors on to particular Classes of Armour.

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But why? Not only does that limit how you can integrate Encumberance into gameplay (if Encumberance is determined by your armour, you miss out on being able to have more in depth Carry Weight interactions) but it makes little mechanical sense, causes balance issues (you end up with different classes of Armour competing against eachother instead o... you know, being Armour) and can even take away from other mechanics (Light Armour giving you a bonus to Stealth for instance. Shouldn't that be Stealth's job, nor Light Armours?).

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A single, Class-less system for Armour isn't functional on the tabletop, but in the video game medium addresses all the problems while maintaining the core concept. Armour has weight, weight slows you down. The more Armour you wear, the heavier it is going to be, and the more it's going to slow you down.

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You don't need Light, Medium and Heavy Armour Classes, you just need the actual weight of Armour to be meaningful, and in doing so you create a Weight-Encumberance system that allows for far more influences. How much you're lugging around now matters (which can make drobable backpacks relevant). Burden and Feather Spells now actually do something. And the old Encumberance impact of the Armour System is still just a natural product of the new Weight-Encumberance system.

That sort of thing

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And this is part of the problem with digging into the Nuts and Bolts of these sorts of game systems. Something that sounds like absurd simplification and streamlining, like 'Get rid of Light, Medium and Heavy Armour', can often create something far more interesting mechanically and for character development, even if it starts off sounding like it's entirely utilitarian.

dim reef
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Why not just keep armor skills and implement the weight system too?

weak sapphire
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A single Armour Skill, which is focused on maximising what your Armour does (protect you) just always came out on top.

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But it depends on how you look at Skills too.

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For instance, look at some of hte old Daggerfall Skills. Climbing, Swimming, Atletics, Acrobatics. Seems great in concept, but aren't they all really just Athletics?

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If you're an expert Swimmer, are you going to be a terrible runner? No, because a lot of those physical characteristics are going to carry over. All your leg muscles and lung capaicty aren't going to dry up (hah) out of water

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So, taking those old concepts, and integrating them into a single Atheltics Skill, which has developmental specialisations for each, allows you to cover all those ideas with none of the weird jank between them.

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1-Handed Weapon having lines or Swords, Axes, Maces, and even particular types of each, fits the same bill. And a single Armour Skill with lines or Leather, Maille, Plate etc. also does.

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And this is where Skyrim's system, despite it's poor execution, can really shine. Using Perks as a means to develop your specialisation WITHIN a Skill, rather than making your specialisation be BETWEEN Skills. Done properly, you can have a dozen characters with 100 1-Handed Weapon, and each and every one can be different.

dim reef
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The issue with a single set armor skill encompassing all armors is...the formula affects armors you never even use. Why are you good at wearing heavy armor if you never even wore it?

weak sapphire
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But this is Fantasy we're talking about, and that isn't very fun, so we allow some wiggle room.

dim reef
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But that just...isn't fun for most players. It also lacks specialization outside of perks. Being inexperienced in heavy armor should portray that in its defensive values or how slow you move in it.

weak sapphire
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Well, then you have to define what Heavy Armour is

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For instance, look at Glass Armor and Ebony Armor.

dim reef
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Ebony is heavy. Glass is light.

weak sapphire
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Weight wise, yes. but why does the weight of the material dictate how protective it is, or how you move in it? They're both Plate armour

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Which, in actuality, is LESS cumbersome than Maille or Leather.

dim reef
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Because it's a game. We're not going for realism here.

weak sapphire
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I know that, but even a game should have some sort of internal consistency

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Why would Glass, which is structurally the same as Ebony simply lighter in weight, make less noise and be easier to move in than Ebony? the less weight is going to tire you out slower, sure, but everything else doesn't make sense when you think about it

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And maybe it's my opinion, but an RPG is the type o game where you SHOULD be thinking about things. How and why are important parts o developing your character, and including things in a game that break down when you think about them doesn't make much sense

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Now, if we took this problem and divided Armour into better divisions, like Leather, Maille and Plate, you'd avoid all those issue. But then you encounter another problem. Plate is just going to be better in basically every situation, so you're creating Skill divisions that function more as a general progression rather than their own stand-alone things.

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In order to keep things like Leather relevant, you could make it so Leather offers the most protection against Magic, while Plate ofers the most against physical weapons (with Maille being inbetween) but that then creates a problem where you're just encouraging the use of both anyway because of the distribution of enemy types.

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A single Armour Skill, with Perk-Lines or different Armour Types, solves all those problems.

dim reef
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I feel it'd just create new problems. Again, why is the character suffering no consequences from wearing armor they aren't trained in?

weak sapphire
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Because you don't need training in Armour. Even having a Skill is already going against realism in many ways.

dim reef
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If i started wearing plate armor, i am not going to be effective in it.

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I'm going to be slow, move clunkily, etc.

weak sapphire
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Not becuase you dont know how to move in it, but because you're not physically conditioned to that weight

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Unless it's really poorly made plate armour

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You'd actually have more problem lugging around 50lbs in your backpack, truth be told

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Which is another point of realism we generally dismiss for 'Fantasy'. Realistically, all armour is going to weigh about the same based on coverage. A full suit of Leather is going to weigh the same as a full suit of Plate, it's just going to be much thicker and in actuality, less well articulated.

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In a realistic sense, Leather Armour is actually really stupid. Linen is far cheaper, far more available, and far more effective. And the amount of Leather you'd actually need to make a protective suit of armour, it'd just be cheaper to get Plate.

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But, again, Fantasy, we can be inspired by realism, but leaning too far into it comes with it's own problems.

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You can also more easily load in far more types of armour into a single Skill. For instance, Cloth (Gambessons and Silk) Leather (there are plenty of exotic hides in TES to make it relevant) Maille, Scale, Brigandine, Plate.

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A Skill for each of them becomes very cumbersome and difficult to define each, but as specialisations within a single Skill they maintain their functionality and more easily present more options.

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Of course, and going back to the 'Bigger Picture' problem... Merging the Armour Skills alone doesn't address other conceptual issues. The 'Thief' concept, for instance, still lacks an active defense approach.

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But, you can integrate Dodging into Athletics pretty easily, further making Athletics relevant and at the same time giving the Thief a way to actively avoid problems in a fight.

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It also creates a system that work in paralelle to complement a single Armour system. For instance, Dodge moves are slowed or decrease their distance based on Encumberance. Thus, you want to wear lighter (or less) armour to maximise them, OR invest heavily in Carry Weight bonuses to overcome them.

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So, the effect of the divided Armour Types is still there, it's just handled differently, and in handling it differently presents you more ways to develop your character.

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Which, again... isn't that the goal? more character development options?

weak sapphire
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Man, this sort of conversation is so much more cumbersome on Discord...

gray mesa
#

I do like it when games have small mechanics that might not be important but add to the overall feel of the experience.
Yes, you could streamline every game into just it's necessary mechanics, but I think most of them would just lose their identity and fun if you do.
Maybe having 5 different weapon skills is unnecessary, sure, but it's still fun to just have that for character builds.
Not everything in a game needs to serve some deep purpose.
Like you said earlier that you hate Fallout New Vegas, yet for me it's one of my absolute favorite games.
That's what I mean when I say we seem to want very different things from a game.
Sure, TES does not NEED more than two weapons skills gameplay wise, but that lack of them makes it feel rather shallow.
I don't think the perks really make up for that in variety unless you use Ordinator.

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Was gone for quite a while, so I definitely won't address everything. This is just more my closing statement on the subject.
I like it when games have maybe unnecessary details and mechanics, since in the end they still positively add to the experience.
Obviously I rather would have them well developed, but definitely not removed.

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That said, some of Morrowind's definitely made sense to streamline, like mercantile and speechcraft into one or shortblades and longblades.
Skills like athletics or acrobatics could have been merged with attributes like speed, but instead were completely removed yet they definitely added to the gameplay; speechcraft has become pretty irrelevant without disposition; spell crafting and many spells are gone and that undoubtedly was also rather important for the gameplay and added a lot.
Could probably continue quite a while here, but you get it.

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Btw, obviously Skyrim also added a few good new of such unnecessary mechanics I like, for example cooking. This is not just anti-Skyrim.

cinder idol
# weak sapphire The general stance on being able to kill anyone is "Well it's realistic". Sure, ...

Dealing with lasting injuries might be fun and get you into being more cautious like in reality, so jumping off of a 3 story building to chase a guy won't happen unless you like the idea of fashioning a splint from a staff and some straps. Of course that'd be for an optional playstyle. It can also be humanising, your character isn't a genetically engineered guy with regenerating flesh from dormant space magic but a mortal being whose actions have consequences not only on the world but on themselves.

In the case of killing an NPC forever, you've not had to deal with an abraisive immortal NPC like Murbak or Braith. If you could silently off them you wouldn't have to sigh as they say they could take you in a fight or shout at you to leave them alone every time you get your stuff repaired instead of taking those comments day after day, every time your weapons are damaged which is often or every time you go to Whiterun. If he wanted to live he'd not be standing right in front of my blacksmith on the same street and would actually move from that spot.

cinder idol
cinder idol
# weak sapphire But, consider 1-Handed Weapon. Within that single Skill, you can offer 3 Basic '...

I didn't like how 1 handed and 2 handed was implemented in Skyrim given that for example swords and maces need different skills, like a blunt weapon specialist won't have perfect edge alignment if they haven't used one before and will try bonking enemies with the blade which isn't making the best use of said blade which needs you to drag the blade as you strike to actually cut which would probably bad to do with a mace (aside from flanged).
Likewise a blade specialist might be thrown off by an axe or mace's lack of useful part compared to hilt and may have trouble getting the distance right to hit the enemy with the head and not the handle.

Also making 1 handed axes/maces/swords different to 2 handed makes no sense as the workings are the same yet one is bigger but the 2 handed axe user has no clue how to use the 1 handed one.

weak sapphire
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As for the skills thing, i think the inherent problem is how you're viewing the specialisations.

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For instance, Skyrim STILL has Axe, Blade and Blunt specialisations. They're still there, they're just under the umbrella of the Weapon Skills. Those character options still (or once agian, since Oblivion did away with most of them) exist, it's just that how they're represented has changed

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And ultimately, that change is one which has allowed for more meaningful specialisations between them.

weak sapphire
# cinder idol I didn't like how 1 handed and 2 handed was implemented in Skyrim given that for...

But does it make more sense to have 1-Handed and 2-Handed Skills, than to have Axe, Blade and Blunt Skills? We're supposed to belive that an expert swordsman can't figure out how to a 1-handed axe, when 90% of the time the only difference is the weapons balance?

Meanwhile, 1-handed and 2-handed combat are at least relatively different in terms of balance, forms, defensive consideration and footwork.

reef hedge
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could always have 1/2 handed skills exist alongside axe/blade/blunt skills.
what if skills were divided into groups similarly to outer worlds (where you invest into a group of skills when you level up, adding points to all skills in the group). so blade, axe, blunt, one handed, two handed would be grouped together, and as you use any of them you gain a bit of xp for all skills in the group, but simply more xp in the skills youre actively using

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then again maybe too complicated

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but you can totally justify someone being good with a sword having an easier time switching to another type of weapon, than someone taking up a new weapon with no martial knowledge at all

#

however i think blade and blunt are still very different and in how theyre used and in their purpose, so id rather not see them in one skill like in skyrim

weak sapphire
#

He's my thought process when looking at any of this.

What does this system represent? Every gameplay and character building system is an abstract representation of something. What is that thing? What is it trying to say?

When i have that, i consider "Ok, how does it represent that thing?"

And in evaluating that, i can usually identify problems with it, so i then ask myself "Ok, how can we address those problems?"

#

With this in mind, i think Skyrim's Skill and Perk system address most of those issues.

cinder idol
weak sapphire
#

For instance, a Skill serves as a broad umbrella for similar activities that all rely on a collective foundation.

1-Handed Weapons, for instance, all use simiar balance, footwork, control and distance guaging. In reality, 2-handed weapons are going to have significant overlap here as well, but we're dealing with Fantasy and also need to manage overburdening a single Skill

Swimming, Running, Jumping, and Climbing are also all activities that build on the same athletic core. Someone who is a veteran swimmer is going to see a lot of that conditioning carry over to the other activities, even if they aren't as good at them as swimming.

Speechcraft is another example. Someone who is good at persuading others is going to see automatic crossover with negotiating prices, encouraging allies, and even threatening enemies.

cinder idol
weak sapphire
#

Now, you could have complicated bonuses where if you increse on Skill, you have overflow into similar Skills. So, for instance, you gain 1 level of Blade, you gain 1/10th of a level of Axe and Blunt. But that's unecessarily complicated, i think.

Instead, you can simply have 1 Skill for the Umbrella concept, and just use Skyrim's Perk System to handle all the specialisation.

So, for Athletics, you have Perks that offer specific bonuses to Swimming, Jumping or Running.

weak sapphire
#

But, then again, i've become more and more of the opinion that Skills should be mostly a leveling mechanic, and have minimal bonuses in and of themselves. Perks are where all the meat should be.

reef hedge
#

the perks would definitely have to have much more specialisation than what we got in skyrim though

cinder idol
weak sapphire
cinder idol
weak sapphire
# reef hedge the perks would definitely have to have much more specialisation than what we go...

Agreed.

Like, look at 1-Handed Weapon. You have 4 basic types of 1-handed Weapons, Swords, Axes, Maces and Daggers. If you have 3 basic bonus Perks with 5 levels, and then 3 Perks for each specialisation with 5 levels each, plus 1 'Special' perk each specialisation, that's a total of 79 Perks in ONE skill. That means 79 levels to 'Master' that one skill.

Consider similar volumes for other skills, and you've create a system where 'Mastering everything' simply isn't practical

weak sapphire
cinder idol
weak sapphire
#

Water interaction in general needs to be overhauled too...

#

But then, what doesn't need significant work in TES...

magic tundra
#

that would lead to bad gameplay, though...
it's a game, not a reality simulator...

weak sapphire
#

It COULD lead to bad gameplay. It depends on hte integration

#

For instance, if it's based on Weight-Encumberance, then it simply creates a system where you don't want to go swimming if you're carrying a lot, or are too weak to effectvely carry a lot

#

You definitely don't want to overdo it though

weak sapphire
#

Here's a contentious point... Birthsigns are dumb. But, i think they may still have uses

eager remnant
# weak sapphire Here's a contentious point... Birthsigns are dumb. But, i think they may still h...

I agree, and prefer Skyrim's approach of "magic stones" myself. For one thing, I don't believe in astrology, so that makes it hard for me to accept the concept. But most importantly, any game mechanic that grants my character the freedom to grow and evolve as they experience life is a good roleplaying game mechanic in my eyes. Conversely, any mechanic that locks a character into unchanging stats is a bad roleplaying game mechanic in my eyes.

weak sapphire
#

Especially when they're basically just an inferior version of Daggerfall's Advantages and Disadvantages

stoic fiber
#

non-Mage Signs: don't interact

weak sapphire
#

It's actually due to the immense superiority of Advantages and Disadvantages that i think Birthsigns (and Classes, but that's another conversation) still have their uses.

Not as mandatory character defining choices, but rather as quick and easy packages during character creation, for those who don't want to take the time to pick through the more in-depth side of the system (IE, Advantages and Disadvantages, or Traits)

dim reef
#

I honestly don't like how skyrim did birthsigns. It's when you were born, so the fact you can change it whenever...makes no sense. Secondly, the stones you find in skyrim should have worked more like they did in oblivion, where they grant you a unique power.

weak sapphire
#

Well, i don't think they WERE Birthsigns in Skyrim

#

They were Starsigns. Like praying under Gemini or something

dim reef
#

So apparently the dragonborn just wasn't born? Because they don't have a birthsign.

weak sapphire
#

Or they weren't born when a Birthsign was ascendant. Most of our information in TES indicates that Birthsigns rarely actually affect people. otherwise you'd have millions of people walking around paralyzing everyone they kiss

dim reef
#

Birthsigns don't actually grant powers. It's a game mechanic.

weak sapphire
#

Well, so is everything really.

stoic fiber
#

I am also of the opinion that Birthsigns are best to be viewed through a metaphorical lens, much like Racial Effects

weak sapphire
#

The mechanics just exist to abstract in-universe functions

dim reef
#

I still stand that birthsigns in skyrim is dumb. Because again, you don't get to change when you were born willy nilly.

weak sapphire
weak sapphire
#

It's got nothing to do with when you were born, but it's still supposed to have an effect.

dim reef
#

They're birthsigns. Because we don't get to choose our birthsign when we make our character like in oblivion or skyrim.

weak sapphire
#

They fulfil a similar mechanical role, yes, but the game never calls them Birthsigns.

stoic fiber
#

I do not see how Birthsigns limit or force the player? You literally choose which sign you have in the character creation. You can pick the one you want as a min-max builder or as a roleplayer. I personally wouldn't mind if future sign effects were made rather minor to the point you wouldn't notice, but I would prefer still for it to be set.

weak sapphire
dim reef
#

If you chose your birthsign when you made your character, i'd agree. You don't, so they're birthsigns.

stoic fiber
#

Well what if you dont want any of the TES races? 😛

weak sapphire
reef hedge
#

not all of them need to come with negatives like atronach does in skyrim

weak sapphire
#

Racial Stats are, themselves, nothing but cultural stereotypes, and don't represent EVERY individual of that race. Like modern concepts of Race, it's basically jus a visual thing driven b stereotypes

weak sapphire
reef hedge
#

how is that a problem

stoic fiber
#

The Character Creation in TES has been iffy at best. If it was up to me, racial choice wouldn't affect the game at all (expect specific biological stuff like Argonian water breathing and Khajiit night vision). Instead, you'd have Race choice for appearance (like Elf, Orc, Human, Argonian, Khajiit) and then Culture choice, Class choice, Birth sign choice.

#

LadyN has a good write up on that - recommend the read

wanton violet
#

i mean, racial perks is a traditional mechanic from rpg dating to d&d

stoic fiber
wanton violet
#

me, a traditional fan of d&d D:

stoic fiber
#

I promise you, there are better TTRPGs outside of DnD. I know, it sounds madness, but believe!

wanton violet
#

(also from playing ESO, all race feel similar once you tape armor and fancy mage cloth on them. it like the big difference for most is skin color, eye shape and if ears are round or pointy. only khaajit and argonian feel/look truly different no matter how many layer of armor you duct tape on them)

stoic fiber
reef hedge
#

i definitely feel like some races having a big impact makes sense

weak sapphire
#

I take it even further.

You first pick your Race, with a few Cultural options (Such as Ashlander Dark Elf, or Great House Dark Elf) or you can customize your ethnicity directly.

You then get to pick your Traits. You can either pick a Birthsign (a pre-made pack of Traits) or customize yours directly.

You then pick your Skills. You can either pick a Class (a pre-made pack of Skill settings) or cutomize yours directly.

So, if you want to pick a Race, Birthsign and Class, you can power through character creation in, like, 3 minutes. Or you can spend an hour doing hte detail work, before you even get to character appearance.

reef hedge
#

altmer are described to have a better affinity for learning magic, as are bretons due to their lineage

wanton violet
#

also it help distinguish them with the lore built around them. high elf being ''better'' at magic would feel ''less real'' if in the end they had same/no bonus like a nord

reef hedge
#

some races are going to be more muscular than others, like orcs, nords and redguards

#

i dont think it should have so much of an impact that it makes or breaks a build

#

but i want it to be a part of the build making process

stoic fiber
wanton violet
#

also, only min/maxer really care about racials stats. my main in eso is an argonian mage. all guide say its worst combo i could think of. i don't care, i got a tail that waggle when i run and i dont hate my life when swimming once every 2 week xD

reef hedge
#

fair, after all ancient nords had quite the affinity towards magic themselves

weak sapphire
#

Which is why most Racials are just cultural stereotypes. Which, having the option for is fine.

stoic fiber
weak sapphire
#

But you should also have the option to NOT fit into those stereotypes.

reef hedge
#

if you have races varying in height, it definitely makes sense to have races vary in their ability to gain muscle as well. even irl the ability to gain muscle can be hugely affected by genetics

#

and in that vein, it would make sense for different races to have varying ability to learn magic

reef hedge
weak sapphire
wanton violet
#

it help races in es are all roughly same size and shape. i remember in wow someone trying to make custom wrestling rule for roleplaying and got slapped really fast by racial physical difference there (imagine a gnome wrestling a tauren lol). he want so badly to make it fair for everyone (to not punish people playing what race they like) but they fly so high in face of canon in there it get comically confusing

weak sapphire
reef hedge
#

it depends on the individual to an extent yes, ofc theres going to be individuals who stick out from the norm, but the average orc is still going to be larger than the average bosmer

wanton violet
#

i mean, from what i think i know, most race and culture (in broad generality) seem to stick to themselve minus the merchant class who travel everywhere and mages/adventurer who want to find stuff outside their home province more than the typical member of their group

weak sapphire
#

Bear in mind, i'm coming at this from the perspective of an Anthropologist. When you look at humans, there are a huge range of physical differences we tend to use to lump people into groups, but at a genetic level, all of that is very superficial. Less than 5% of genetic variation occurs between populations, with 95% being between individuals. Compare that to the Grey Wold, where the ratios are 70% and 30% respectively.

#

And in TES, for Men and Mer at least, they're both the same 'Species', just divided by social and a few mythical lines.

#

There's no reason you can't represent a huge, and i mean absolutely absurd, amount of cultural and ethnic diversity, even without Racial Stats. Hell, we've produced over 5000 distinct cultures, and we're all basically the same 'Race' as far as Fantasy is concerned

narrow hull
#

That's an interesting thought

stoic fiber
wanton violet
#

thing is, that would take huge amount of time and efforst to depict difference and majority of player probably will just skip the reading and jump right into the game,no?

narrow hull
#

DnD is moving away from each race being hard set with specific attributes too 🤔

stoic fiber
weak sapphire
#

Look at the difference between Imperials in oblivion, and Dunmer in Morrowind.

#

Could you tell me the cultural differences between any of the major counties in Cyrodiil?

wanton violet
#

for me they're all roman

#

lol

narrow hull
#

In Oblivion?

#

They are barely Roman at all lol

stoic fiber
#

In game? Sadly so. In lore? Vastly different

weak sapphire
#

If you were to make an Imperial from Leyawin, how would they differ from one from Chorral?

wanton violet
#

cyrodil is the imperial homeprovince? 90% of the time i see imperial that arent civillian of some sort or a magus, they wear roman like armor and have latin inspired name anyway so that why i'm biased with my surface level of knowledge to just lump them all into fake roman category

weak sapphire
#

Meanwhile, we can all pretty easily identify the diference between a Hlaalu, Redoran, and Urshilaku Dunmer

stoic fiber
#

Well in my gen, I split the Cyrodiil cultures in basically Nibenese, Colovian, and Heartlander.

wanton violet
#

they even got an emperor and are obsessed with keeping The Empire up and running

weak sapphire
#

The standard Race system doesn't allow for these sorts of disctinctions. You're just Imperial, or you're just Dunmer.

wanton violet
#

it archaic but it make things so simple for the brain

stoic fiber
#

Well, that's basically the dish Bethesda is on the path to serving...

weak sapphire
#

Yeah. And simplicity is good, for ease of use, but especially with the video game medium, you can offer the OPTION for more, without forcing it

wanton violet
#

i know irl you can't lump a single country as all the same people (just looking at my country canada, difference between province can be big, and i know next to nothing about other than mine but even inside each they probably have regional difference.

stoic fiber
#

I wouldbt be surprised if TES 6 gives us only 3 Skill Trees: Magic, Martial, and Stealth

weak sapphire
stoic fiber
#

I've never been for the modern mindset of "simplicity = better". But it's a philosophy many mainstream game studios will continue to follow to sell

weak sapphire
#

Simplicity IS better, so long as it does the same thing.

#

No point taking 3 steps when you could do the same thing in 2. It's when you start cutting out steps, and cutting out results at the same time, that you start running into problems

#

My general moto when looking at mechanical solutions is; What do i want to acheive? Once you have an end goal, you look for the simplest way to get there. And don't compromise that end goal for the sake of making things easier to finish.

stoic fiber
weak sapphire
#

Ah, Plato's Cave. I know that analogy

#

But i disagreee. Because the shadows are the more complex outcome. They require light to project, so percieving them is one step more than just percieving a the chair it's self.

#

The way i view Complexity and Simplicity is like this.

#

You want to get from A to B to C to D. You don't want to make that path any more complicated than it needs to be. You don't go from A to C, then backtrack to B, then go to D. And you don't hit up each point more than once.

#

In more practical terms, look at Minecraft. You don't take a log, cut it into beams, then cut the beams into planks. Because nothing you're doing needs beams, so you go straight to Planks.

dim reef
#

Seriously doubt there'd be "martial, magical, stealth".

weak sapphire
#

Simplicity CAN be taken too far though. Like, cutting out B and C entirely, and just going from A to D. Yes, you reach the same end point, but you're removing points along the way, and that's a problem.

#

Simplicity demands that something only be as complicated as absolutely necessary. But Complexity demands that simplicity not remove components. There's a happy medium between the two.

stoic fiber
#

What you speak is true, but you perspective is faulted. TES is not a destination. It is a journey. A narrative. A canvas to paint upon. And as the recent series is to be seen (not looking at ESO), we go from light to shadow, rather than shadow to light. This happens not only with TES, but a lot of mainstream media. I mean not to sound like "back in my days..." nerevar That is a lot of good in modernity too ofc, but this aspect of "devolution" if you will, is very much a thing. In closing, a good saying is: a simplified circle is a square.

weak sapphire
#

TES may be, but game-making is not.

#

To use a practical example, let slook at Races and Character Creation.

What is the goal? To present players with a range of options to allow them to make as many character identities as they want, but fit within the fantasy setting of Tamriel.

What do we have? 10 Races each with unique stats.

Does this acheive the goal? Well, no, because those stats are themselves limiting, and restrict the range of characters you could create.

dim reef
#

...no?

weak sapphire
# dim reef ...no?

I mean, i can't make a frail Nord bookworm that's suceptable to the Cold, can i?

dim reef
#

Because nords are hardy to the cold.

#

I've not once felt limited. In all the elder scrolls games. From daggerfall (arena doesn't exist) to skyrim.

weak sapphire
dim reef
#

Then we may as well just have one race that has nothing going for them.

stoic fiber
# weak sapphire To use a practical example, let slook at Races and Character Creation. What is...

I will admit, I am no game maker. And honestly, a lot of people sadly pass judgement upon game makers without a single thought upon their side and the difficulty of their tasks. I tots agree. However, what we ask for, is basically systems already seen with a slight tweakage. Is it more effort upon them? Sure, most certainly. How much? I am not sure. But I think I am in the right to say that most of us are willing to wait the means for the end, rather than a numerical significant release date nerevar

wanton violet
#

never felt limited by race choices in elder scroll. sure my argonian dont get bonus magic damage. she still a sorcerer throwing spells at everything. or even better in skyrim, woohoo my race got +10 skill for heavy armor, only matter for first 2 min if i wanted a heavy armor perk, or not all all if i wanted to wear a dress and be a very manly nord caster

weak sapphire
#

I, at least, say no. Simplicity should direct our problemsolving, but it should not dictate our goals

reef hedge
#

how does race limit character identity at all

barren pebble
#

idk dude that's what he said

reef hedge
#

cant speak for earlier games but any race in skyrim can work in any build

barren pebble
#

yeah and despite that, shouldn't there sort of be limitations for some things? like ofc a khajiit isn't going to be as effective of a two handed warrior as an orc without putting extra time and effort in

reef hedge
#

its literally just extra to make builds more interesting to min maxers

weak sapphire
#

See, tue problem there is, you're lookijg at Builds. Im looking at Characters.

dim reef
#

I just feel you're going way into extremes. If making a race interesting mechanically is "limiting" then like i said, should just have one race with 0 in everything.

weak sapphire
#

Like, i want to play a Nord, born to Merchants and raised on the sands of Elsweyr, coming to Skyrim and dealing with the cold for the first time.

Nope, sorry, you're resistant to Cold and like to hit things. That's all we got for ya.

dim reef
#

You can legit still do that.

weak sapphire
#

And like i said, that DOES address one kf the criteria i stated. But the goal is to address both, so how do you do that?

#

Show me where i can get rid of Cold Resistance wothout creating a new race option in the editor.

wanton violet
#

i just handwave that kind of thing as genetic difference, nord descend from northen warrior so they inanely more resilient to cold.

dim reef
#

It's called imagination.

reef hedge
#

why should you be able to get rid of cold resistance, as a nord your blood descends from those hardy to cold environments

#

its part of your character, not a limitation to it

dim reef
#

My imperial gets a bonus to speech in oblivion...she literally sucks at the speech minigame.

#

I imagine lines she'll say and it comes off as creepy or shy.

#

Etc.

weak sapphire
dim reef
#

It is.

reef hedge
#

except in TES thats exactly how it works because across all games theyre racial bonuses, not cultural bonuses

weak sapphire
#

Yeah, because its a game, and they're stuck in outdated approaches ti gameplay

reef hedge
#

or because in TES races are much more different to one another than they are in real life

#

which is fine, and in fact makes for much more interesting character creation

weak sapphire
#

They aren't though. All the evidence disputes it (save for the Beast Races)

dim reef
#

Again, my imperial gets a bonus to personality and speechcraft...but i input her as being bad at it. That's roleplaying.

weak sapphire
#

Lets just get rid of all Races, you can Roleplay the identities instead. See, it works bkth ways

dim reef
#

My argonian in skyrim, i visited angi's house. The little bow minigame, i made my shots poor to make sense she never used bows.

And then again in solstheim i had to do the same in a dwemer ruin.

dim reef
weak sapphire
#

The gameplay exists to facilitate roleplay, roleplay does not exist to cover the games shortcomings.

reef hedge
#

cause theres quite a lot to support the differences

dim reef
#

I'm not covering shortcomings. I'm not letting these "limits" define my character.

#

I'm letting me define my character.

weak sapphire
reef hedge
#

wood orcs are just another variant of a race that comes with their own differences

weak sapphire
#

If you allow for that spread, why reject the notion that all races are the exact same thing?

reef hedge
#

and of course any race can have its warriors, mages, and rogues, that doesnt disprove anything

dim reef
#

I've never even heard of wood orcs. But even then just do what i've suggested to others, under "argonian", make sub racials.

reef hedge
#

because across all games youre given racial bonuses that link to your heritage, not your environmental upbringing

weak sapphire
#

They're all Ehlnofey, spread across different regions with superficial physical characteristics with common social trends MOST members kf that ethnic group follow

dim reef
#

Like choose khajiit, then choose which khajiit type.

weak sapphire
#

Yes, and im saying that approach is not supported by the lore, is actually mechanically limiting, and is an putdated.

wanton violet
reef hedge
#

there are obvious racial differences

reef hedge
#

Your **Nord blood **gives you 50% resistance to Frost

weak sapphire
dim reef
#

Bruh.

#

Nords in skyrim barely wear winter clothing.

weak sapphire
#

Or Dunmer resistance to Fire. or Altmer being the best mages (just don't look at Shalidor, ignore him because he breaks the whole system)

dim reef
#

Dunmer take less fire damage if you use fire against them.

weak sapphire
#

Or are Reachmen even more cold resistant than Nords?

dim reef
#

Reachmen literally live in the reach which is moderate forest and mountains. It isn't as snowy as say, windhelm. Plus....that's their homeland. So, naturally they'd be resistant/use to the environment.

weak sapphire
#

Most Nords don't live in the winter areas of Skyrim either.

reef hedge
#

most do, only falkreath and riften arent cold

dim reef
#

Morthal, dawnstar, windhelm, winterhold, karthwastern, etc.

weak sapphire
#

If those naked tribes of Nords actually showed up in game, or in any source that's not the PGE1, you may have some evidence

#

Winterhold, Dawnstar, and Eastmarch are the only particularly frozen regions

wanton violet
#

even temperate south of skyrim is deemed cold by outsiders

weak sapphire
#

And if you're basing things entirely off in-game attire, every other race wears the same thing. You've got Dunmer working farms in Windhelm in freaking blizards wearing a tunic and vest

#

I guess, by this logic, Dunmer are resistant to cold as well

dim reef
#

No. Because game development takes time. To expect there to be clothing for every season and environment is inane.

weak sapphire
#

Exactly, so using clothing found IN GAME to support something like Cold Resistance makes no sense

dim reef
#

...bruh. The clothes in skyrim represent nordic attire.

weak sapphire
#

Because it's a game, and making things that look like cold-weather gear wasn't a priority

#

And you're trying to use them an example of how the Nords aren't bothered by the cold

#

Yes, i get it

#

And you know what, in looking them up, i've changed my stance

#

Because actually looking at their clothes disproves your point. Their clothing, especially the nicer outfits and armours, includes a lot of fur

#

Multiple layers, fur lining, heavier builds. Almost like they ARE cold weather gear. Which, again, sorta disputes the whole "Resistant to cold thing"

wanton violet
#

but also fur always has been a status symbol, that may play a role unrelated to practicality (just saying)

dim reef
#

Yeah...most fur clothed is, like you said, nicer clothing.

reef hedge
#

it doesnt dispute the resistant to cold thing, resistance to cold isnt immunity

dim reef
#

That too.

weak sapphire
#

yes, it does. Because it shows that there's no actual evidence of Nord sbeing resistant

reef hedge
#

for a racial bonus that cant so easily be attributed to environments though, have a look at breton's resistance to magic

Breton blood grants a 25% resistance to magic, constant
we know that bretons have an affinity towards magic higher than most races of man, according to NPCs and books, how would you argue that the environment of high rock is what gives them this racial trait

weak sapphire
#

Again, that is a tooltip

reef hedge
#

so? its even more direct than an NPC, thats a plus

#

we do have NPCs discussing breton affinity for magic however

weak sapphire
#

Tooltips aren't in-universe, and are only subject ot the single game they are found in

reef hedge
#

melaran for example

Sybille Stentor has a grasp of magical theory that I would never have expected from a human. Even a Breton.

weak sapphire
#

Again, racial stereotyping

reef hedge
#

bretons are also known for their knights and valour though

#

yet their racial trait lies elsewhere

weak sapphire
#

You're trying to prove these are biological characteristics, not cultural trends

#

Which is, again, not supported by the actual lore in any capacity i am familiar

#

So, it's an enturely gameplay driven element. And a limiting one

wanton violet
#

also, nord only resist cold by 50%, they arent totally immune to it and thus can still suffer from it. just a lot less than that imperial recruit who just landed in skyrim and is already panicking

reef hedge
#

across all games nords are resistant to cold, its not only subject to the single game

#

and i dont understand why tooltips arent a good source

#

it tells us that theyre famous for it

#

that refers to in universe understanding

weak sapphire
#

You're still using tooltips

#

Where is that in-universe reference? Nowhere

#

And again, stereotypes CAN create the perception of inherent traits where there are none, just look at the history of race in hte real world

wanton violet
#

in universe its often by the comments of npc, khaajiit wondering how the nord can live like this in the cold and such

reef hedge
#

whats wrong with tooltips as a source? it tells us that the resistance comes from blood, for all races it describes the bonuses as born with or because of blood

#

and theres nothing in universe that goes against it

#

so why deny it

weak sapphire
#

Because there's nothing in universe that supports it either

reef hedge
#

there is, you just disregard it as stereotyping

weak sapphire
#

Ok, that's fair

#

Lets be clear about this again though, i am nkt advocating the removal of Race options

reef hedge
#

i definitely agree to an extent that there is stereotyping, especially when it comes to starting skill bonuses

#

but for stuff that the game tells you comes from your blood directly, i dont see a reason to deny it

#

annnd i dont see how its limiting either

weak sapphire
#

I want to play a Dunmer who is vulnerable to Fire. For whatever reason, doesn't really matter

reef hedge
#

a way around its "limits" such as if you want to be a nord who is weak to cold, then if there were possible character traits that you could tag on to your character

weak sapphire
#

Which just leads into the exact same system im talking about

reef hedge
#

i just think it should coexist with racial bonuses

#

the more character customisation options the better scary

weak sapphire
#

There's no reason to make them compete. Make them one in the same. If you want to be a normal, healthy Nord, fine. But of you want to be a Nord who, for whatever reason, is vulnerable to the cold, the system shouldn't fight you trying to be that character

#

And this is where Daggerfall's system is really the only one that ever worked.

#

Want to make a Fire Vulnerable Dunmer? You can.

#

Want to make an Altmer who can't even use Magic? You can.

spice whale
#

i don't see what for. For the sake of having it? i see dunmer resistant to -heat- rather than fire because of some traits good old evolution gave them. Plus Azura. Nords are resistant to cold conditions rather than Frost Bite spell because of those bulky meaty boney bodies they have and pale skin

reef hedge
#

nords are said to be resistant to magical frost as well

spice whale
#

nah, that's gameplay

weak sapphire
spice whale
#

makes it too complex, too many menus to go through

weak sapphire
#

One menu. It requires one menu.

reef hedge
#

daggerfall, battlespire, and morrowind describe the nord race with

Nords are famous for their resistance to cold, even magical frost

yes thats a tooltip describing the race, but it states that nords are famous for their resistance to magical frost

also skyrim survival mode adds a resistance to cold effect for some races including nord that exists alongside its resistance to frost

wanton violet
#

i mean, if some element protection ruin your character, for me, it sound weird

spice whale
#

i mean, no lore book in the series actually make it sound like oh hey, i'm a Nord, i should jump into that frozen pool because i'm resistant to cold, or, that dunmer lady put her hand into boiling water and was all right because she's resistant to high temps.. At least i don't remember nothing of sorts O_ o Races are adapted to climates they live in, nothing more

eternal tapir
#

Cultural traits sounds like an interesting concept

#

I'm hoping something like that shows up in some form for ES6

reef hedge
#

i mean from what we see in game theyre seen to be resistant to those elements, its likely exaggerated in the games but we can still observe it. i think in ESO it even goes further and makes dunmer slightly more resistant to lava, that doesnt even provide a gameplay benefit, its just flavour that matches the race

#

and in fact draugr almost exclusively use frost magic

#

which could be suggestive of an old affinity towards frost magic

#

which is now represented as a resistance to such

weak sapphire
#

And makes literally zero sense in the universe, but whatever...

The ultimate goal should be more character options

reef hedge
#

similarly to breton affinity towards magic which is clearly described in game being represented as a resistance to magic

wanton violet
#

well, it a classic fantasy trope. the people of the snowy wasteland specialize in frost magic, those living in desert prefer fire etc

#

since they live in that element, they got an affinity to use the magic type tied to it

spice whale
#

always thought frost magic the draugr cast is supposed to hint on necromancy. Cold lifeless bodies, cold eyes. Death, fear, cold. Yuk

reef hedge
#

undead in elder scrolls dont seem to be limited to frost magic, dragon priests use both fire and shock, and pretty sure undead in older games arent limited to frost at all

spice whale
#

ah, and yeah Bretons and Altmer definitely should be more skilled in magic, it's in their blood, their heritage

reef hedge
#

its just more prevalent in skyrim

wanton violet
#

i mean, can also mean that (since there isnt really in skyrim a shadow/dark magic type really)

#

i remember when i made my ''dwemer scholar'' mage, i focused on lightning spell for a more ''sciency'' looking magic type

spice whale
#

power of electricity? yeah that makes sense

reef hedge
#

i think theres actually a book about a dude setting himself on fire in order to get a better understanding of fire and therefore be better at casting it

weak sapphire
#

If memory serves, it kills him

reef hedge
#

oh fair

wanton violet
#

meanwhile my dark elf in eso can swim in lava and not scream too much in pain xD

#

(she still scream, but die 40% slower)

weak sapphire
#

Meanwhile, anyone in ESO can swim in lava and not die instanly...

wanton violet
#

i think argonian treat it as water and get their swim bonus XD

weak sapphire
#

I used to laugh at my Molten Core run in WoW, spend more time swimming in Lava than i did in water

wanton violet
#

i wish some wow race would have similar racial as es, i could be a dps standing in fire and if dunmer, healer wont yell at me now /s

weak sapphire
#

More to the general conversation, i do think Race has value, just like Birthsigns and Classes. But it's making any of them immutable that is the problem. Even if we accept certian inherent characteristics, there are always going to be outliers, and a system that allows you to express those outliers is ideal

reef hedge
#

thats where i think an additional trait system could fit in

#

nords have an innate resistance to cold, but you could counteract it with a "cant stand the cold" trait

#

and maybe that negative trait allows you to take a positive trait elsewhere

#

or provides its own bonus

wanton violet
#

then that trait is just a double negative or it open a new metagame, if i take can't stand the cold as a nord, i can get this bonus and suffer 0 penalty

reef hedge
#

but then youre lacking a bonus you would normally have

spice whale
#

Skyrim Survival CC has some, btw. Cats and lizards can digest raw meat easily, nords and orcs are well adapted to frost, dunmer don't get tired as much.. not sure why. BGS have already tried playing with additional traits, so maybe?

weak sapphire
#

I think you could pretty seamlessly integrate a Trait system into Race and Birthsighs themselves. Simply use those two as packages of Traits. Or, if you want to go more indepth, just press X for Customise and pick your own directly.

reef hedge
#

true, races could just be presets of different traits

#

and you can adjust them as you see fit

wanton violet
#

betetr to have 0% cold resist/penalty and some random advantage fitting someone's build/vision than be the dunmer who take 50% more cold damage for same bonus.

reef hedge
#

i dont know how to balance a game

weak sapphire
#

If I've learned anything from MOBAs and RTSs, you don't

#

Especially for single player games, why bother?

reef hedge
#

end of the day if some people wanna metagame let them

#

others will choose traits to fit their character roleplay

weak sapphire
#

Just make it fun, and give people options to play with

wanton violet
#

even in wow where racial affect even less things there people trying to min/max that 1% stat buff, so unless you make a bland game where there no stats (like swtor) people will always build around them

reef hedge
#

difference is wow is an MMO where metagaming is necessary to be good at late game team content

wanton violet
#

even then, racial are irrelevant unless you play for those world first guild at the end of the day

barren pebble
weak sapphire
#

Similarly, now that i'm actually in front of a computer and not typing on a phone, the main in-universe source on racial biology, Notes on Racial Phylogeny, throws a huge wrench into the whole 'It's in their blood' argument

barren pebble
#

oh ok

#

well then why would we even be given things if there are no evidence to back it up tho?

#

smhsmh

weak sapphire
#

For isntance; Each time you level up, you may pick a perk. You can save your perk choice for later if you don't quite meet the requirements of the perk you want.

#

Are we to interpret that as indicating people in Tamriel level up, and store Perks?

wanton violet
#

smh those peasant not knowing how to open their skill menu

barren pebble
#

really? that's censored?

weak sapphire
#

In game, Nords DO take less damage to frost attacks, that's true. But just because they do in game, doesn't mean it's true in universe

wanton violet
#

if they did the civil war would be over in 2 sec /s

barren pebble
#

jesus this is a server for a 17 and up game my god

wanton violet
#

isnt it mentioned somewhere that because nord are more resilient to cold, using cold magic is dumb against them? similar to fire for dunmer?

weak sapphire
#

Not that i am aware of, at least not in any in-game material

#

Anyway, Racial Phylogeny has this to day about racial characteristics;

Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present.

#

Within this, it's entirely possible (though it's implied to be rare) for offspring of mixed race couples to have traits from both parents. Such as a Dunmer resistant to Cold and Fire. Or physically looking like the Mothers race with the characterisitcs of the Fathers, such as a Redguard baby with all the magical aptitude of an Altmer.

#

We know that mixed race couples happen with relative frequency in Tamriel. They aren't the majority, of course, but they aren't exactly rare either. If these sorts of characteristics WERE based on blood, then there should be all kinds of different mixes of abilities out there.

spice whale
#

ah, it was not a quote? cold and fire scared me a little

weak sapphire
#

Yeah, that didn't format totally well

#

the quote was

"Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present."

The rest was me extrapolating from that quote

#

And then you've got examples like Uriel Lariat, whose mother was a Dunmer but who was apparently usually identified as a Breton

spice whale
#

can't remeber what book it was, about first contacts of Ysgramor boys and bretons? atmorans thought those were elves, they looked so alike

#

like, phylogeny talks about appearance, pointy ears, weird facial bones

#

ah, and some old book.. mmm, from Daggerfall times i think, mentions some breton who lived longer than your average human because he had elven blood. But that's Peteroson's stuff, retconed already

#

can't remember what book was it, but we did have a talk about it with other nerds, ha ha

reef hedge
#

from what weve seen

#

children take very very little from their fathers

#

it took many generations of aldmer males raping nedic slave women before we eventually got bretons

weak sapphire
#

Lyris Titanborn, also, took more after her father it seems

#

So, it's definitely more complicated than just "Taking after the mother"

reef hedge
#

thats fair

weak sapphire
#

If we were to put it into genetic terms, i'd say that X-linked traits tend to be dominant

spice whale
#

i'll be damned, it's PGE 1 - Khosey, in his 'Tamrilean Tractates,' transcribes a firsthand account of the "discovery" of the Bretons by a Nordic hunting party. The Bretons, in ten generations of Elven intermingling and slavery, had become scarcely recognizable as humans. Indeed, the hunting party attacked them thinking they were some new strain of Aldmeri

weak sapphire
#

I mean, Pelinal mistook Khajiit for Elves too

#

maybe Nordic-men are just dumb

wanton violet
#

they look puny, must be elves -That Nord

reef hedge
#

i think it was the ohmes and ohmes-raht he mistook for elves, cause they actually look like elves

#

and hence hes also the reason they now cover themselves in face paint to make themselves look more like khajiit

#

that was my understanding at least

weak sapphire
#

That is the myth, at least.

#

Unfortunately, our actual information in Pelinal is limited. Even talking to his spirit doesn't yeild a lot of useful information

cinder idol
weak sapphire
distant star
#

Really? I love Oblivion lol

cinder idol
#

I like it too, it's my favie.

weak sapphire
#

Ob;livion almost made me quit the series entirely

cinder idol
weak sapphire
#

Just, the terribly bland world design, total lackof any sort of effort or creativity in world building, superficial character options, terrible level scaling

#

And those hideous potato faces

distant star
#

Oh? I actually like the landscape and worldbuilding

#

Plus for me, the potato faces have their own charm

weak sapphire
#

Going from Morrowind, which i will admit i hated at first, to Oblivion, it just felt like a lazy phoned in design

distant star
#

Ah, I played Morrowind last, probs the one I liked the least

weak sapphire
#

Like, going to Disney Land. A cheap commercial ripoff of thoughtful fantasy

distant star
#

But that’s not to say I didn’t love it, I love em all almost equally

weak sapphire
#

I started with Daggerfall. And while i initially hated Morrowind, i eventually warmed up to it and it stands as my favorite to this day.

#

Oblivion was just... souless? Even the Deadlands were boring, they were jsut 'Generic Hell'. Dagon is the Daedric Prince of Natural Disasters, modeling each environment aorund a disaster like a Tornado or Earthquake seemed like such an easy design concept.

cinder idol
weak sapphire
#

Well, he's certianly become the Prince of Cheap Plot Devices

cinder idol
#

True.

weak sapphire
#

Need an easy antagonist? Bal or Dagon

#

Like, it's always a danger judging a game on what it COULD have been... And that's a lesson i have learned

#

But Oblivion just left such a bad taste in my mouth that i've never been able to recover.

#

At least it's not New Vegas though, that game is a full on dumpster fire, and i swear the only reason it's beloved is stockholm syndrome.

cinder idol
weak sapphire
cinder idol
#

I will agree though, the combat isn't very good but at least every hit you hit will land and vice versa, meaning you can take on anything you can come up against if you're skilled enough. The generic fantasy design of it was because marketing but it was a good starting point for me who was kinda afraid of Morrowind's combat, not helped when my dad handed me the controller once (I watched him play back then) and I used a teleportation spell thinking it'd send me to his house like the last time I did so then was suddenly in a dwarven ruin with Spheres barreling towards me.

weak sapphire
#

Yeah, i don't fault people who like Oblivion. it's not a BAD game, it was just a huge disappointment for me

cinder idol
#

It's funny how much more "graphically/technologically advanced" the games got since but the feet went from properly modeled to flesh slabs again, that and the grimdark of Skyrim/later games made them kinda unpleasant if you thought about them. I guess I'm used to being able to get people to actually like me in those games unlike stuff after Oblivion where those who hate you will continue to hate you, sometimes even if you want them dead because unconscious (still a thing in Oblivion but they can die after you do their quests unlike some in Skyrim/everyone in Blades).

weak sapphire
#

Yeah, Disposition was definitely a loss...

#

Especially weird, since Skyrim implemented a much more indepth Relationship system for NPCs

cinder idol
gray mesa
#

I agree, Oblivion's world building just lacks any personality

#

It's just rather bland, European fantasy.

#

The quests are great, but the worlds are always my main priority in TES, which just makes Oblivion my least favorite among the "recent" three.
Morrowind is my favorite and Skyrim I can appreciate, especially with modding.

stoic fiber
#

I honestly think they need to bring back the Oblivion NPC AI of instead of having a planned schedule, they have a goal and passions and they are tasked to find their own way to complete their tasks. It;s amazing but also breeds the most whimsical of results

dim reef
#

Yeah. They might of been janky, but in real life I hear some weird conversations from strangers

cinder idol
stoic fiber
#

Exactly

#

"I hear Daedra worship has become increasingly prevalent in the Summerset Isle."

weak sapphire
#

Oof, hard pass. The NPC conversations in Oblivion weren't just janky, they were atrocious

#

I felt like i was at an anamatronic exhibit listening to maniquens try to have a conversation

gray mesa
#

Oblivion NPC conversations I wouldn't want, but their general dynamic schedules should definitely return

stoic fiber
#

That's just how people are in Cyrodiil. Look at Cicero - if he was in Oblivion, we wouldnt blink an eye

magic tundra
spice whale
#

i remember yhat one time when i found two named dead bodies under imperial city bridge. i know it wasnt just simple "bug", they didnt just happen there. Somethinv lured them down and killed hhem. I had to investigate! uesp provided wiyh their schedules. Tutned out one of them was.. unmemorable i fotgot her and thd other was skooma dealer. that orc lived in Cheydinhall. Her daily routine is to around town, sell skooma. then she was supposed to go to a secret place in the woods and meet some camonna tong boys. Then once a week she made a trip to another town..

weak sapphire
#

That traveling to other towns on particular days was amazingly immersion breaking for me

#

Cyrodiil is a country, not a freaking amusement park

dim reef
#

How is travelling an amusement park?

magic tundra
#

sometimes business requires travelling to another city

dim reef
#

If anything people not traveling is less immersive.

weak sapphire
#

but no, it's a time thing. Seeing the same NPC in Chorral that you saw in Leyawin 2 days ago is immersion breaking for me. That's hundreds of miles away, and yet somehow this woman can stop by every sunday to see her mother for tea/

#

Does Tamriel have bullet trains?

dim reef
#

That's great...this is a game though.

#

Also...the world is condensed. Are you saying you also don't travel in oblivion (or any of Bethesda's games really...) Because "i get there in less than a day"?

Heck even rdr2 has this "problem".

reef hedge
#

whys it unimmersive to see an NPC in two towns though

dim reef
#

Because apparently seeing them in two towns within a short timespan is bad.

reef hedge
#

havent played much oblivion, but i love seeing khajiit caravans in skyrim moving about between cities

dim reef
#

People travel just like the khajiits do.

reef hedge
#

i probably wouldnt want to see every npc travelling about cause as lach said, most people just dont travel that far so frequently

#

but id definitely like to see some NPCs around travelling

dim reef
#

Not everyone travels.

weak sapphire
#

This is part of the immersion problem. Things that are immersive for some are unimmersive for others

dim reef
#

I can only think of like 3 npcs that do.

#

Okay but lach, again, do you yourself not travel since you can get from anvil to cheydinhall in a day?

weak sapphire
#

I can disconnect from that, because i make extensive use of Fast Travel

dim reef
#

Bruh.

#

That's literally less immersive.

reef hedge
#

no fast travel gang

weak sapphire
#

Once again, immersion means different things to diferent people

#

the most immersive games i've ever played aren't even RPGs or Sims, they're usualy management games

#

Immersion is the ability to just lose yourelf for hours and forget what goes on around you.

#

Which, i will admit, never been the strong suit of RPGs for me.

#

But being constantly reminded just how small the game world actually is definitely does not help

eternal tapir
#

Most visually immersive game I've played is Cyberpunk 2077... and it ruined pretty much every other urban OW game for me

#

Most "immersive" open world game, probably RDR2

#

Elder Scrolls 6 has a lot to live up to, and I can guess it's guaranteed to be a mixed bag reception-wise

dim reef
#

Why must we compare games? Rdr2 and the elder scrolls 6 are offering different things. It's like when avarti compared the dragonborn to geralt.

eternal tapir
#

Because people will be comparing the writing, graphical fidelity, gameplay, etc. to other open world games no matter the design goals.
Elder Scrolls 6 is also going to be compared to Skyrim, the highest selling and most popular ES title to date.

dim reef
#

Yeah well i prefer to compare games to their predecessors. Not a game that's offering a completely different thing.

eternal tapir
#

For the open-world genre... it's inevitable

dim reef
#

It really isn't.

eternal tapir
#

Cyberpunk got torn apart for not having the exact same features as GTA though one was a first-person immersive sim with multi-genre gameplay and another was a cops-and-robbers sandbox, while ALSO being compared against Bethesda's games in "immersion" and "interactivity" factor

#

Just Cause 3 got similar criticism for not having their AI on the same level as GTA V's

dim reef
#

No cyberpunk got torn apart for being a terribly released game with bugs worse than 76 at launch.

eternal tapir
#

State of the game is irrelevant

dim reef
#

It was the most relevant thing about it. Not once did i see people say "it's bad for not being like gta".

eternal tapir
#

Look at the countless posts on the CDPR forums, the subreddit, and YouTube videos criticizing C2077 for lacking hyper-specific details like GTA-styled police chases, third-person views, "real choices" (Like does EVERY choice need to be in-your-face), flying cars, joinable factions.

#

Elder Scrolls 6 WILL be compared to other OW games, end of story

#

After playing Cyberpunk myself I want Elder Scrolls 6 to have a proper sense of enviornmental scale and characters that are written like real people. And the cherry on top? A seamless world

dim reef
#

Skyrim has all that. So don't see why 6 wouldn't.

eternal tapir
#

It mostly has to do with balancing world design between first-and-third person playstyles, but Skyrim's world doesn't FEEL big and writing wise, the amount of memorable characters is close to zero.

dim reef
#

I disagree.

eternal tapir
#

Name five characters from Skyrim in the next twenty seconds

distant star
#

Serana, Harkon, Nazeem, Lydia and Balgruuf

dim reef
#

Balgruff, serana, tullius, brynjjolf, lydia

eternal tapir
#

Name five character from morrowind in the next twenty seconds

dim reef
#

Cauis, dagoth ur, vivec, almalexia, sotha sil

distant star
#

Crassius Curio, Vivec, Almalexia, Caius Cossades and King Helseth

magic tundra
#

Does Sotha count?

eternal tapir
#

[Not related to the current argument]

#

Name five characters from oblivion in the next twenty seconds

distant star
#

Not really because he wasn’t really alive when we met him lol

#

Martin, Baurus, Jauffre, Mankar, Sheogorath, Haskill

eternal tapir
#

Now for the OGs... name five characters from Elder Scrolls adventures redguard in the next twenty seconds

distant star
#

Uh, Cyrus, N’gasta, that fat admiral who’s name I forgot, Nahfilargus

#

Oh and Prince A’tor

#

Idk anyone else

#

Unless Cyrus’ sister counts

#

Which book, also I never read the books lmao, only a summary of the events as a whole

magic tundra
#

Richton

#

Name five characters from Elder Scrolls Travels: Dawnstar

distant star
#

Not happening, I know next to nothing about the travels games besides a lil on shadowkey lol

eternal tapir
#

Name five characters from The Real Barenziah

magic tundra
#

Barenziah, Symmachus, Helseth, Eadwyne, Jagar Tharn

eternal tapir
#

Name the objectively worst non-easter egg character in the entire series

magic tundra
#

Adoring fan?

distant star
gray mesa
#

Cicero, damn that annoying clown

chrome glacier
#

Do you guys think it’s possible for Bethesda to carry their, “kill everyone” attitude from the fallout series into elder scrolls? I know the elder scrolls requires alot of continuity because of how the lore is structured

#

Where as fallout doesn’t have such structure/continuity, since the events on one side on the country don’t really affect the other side

weak sapphire
#

Possible, yes. But not really worthwhile

gray mesa
#

Wouldn't worry about continuity too much there.
I mean you could kill Neloth in Morrowind technically, but he clearly is alive in Skyrim. They just pick one option.
If continuity was that big of a worry TES pretty much should have no choices, which would be pretty bad.

eager remnant
# eternal tapir [Not related to the current argument]

I sure can't. In my opinion, Oblivion's writing is the worst since Daggerfall. With a handful of exceptions (Owyn, for example) characterization in Oblivion is non-existent. Individual faction quests can sometimes be interesting, but the questlines themselves are depressingly bland. I think Skyrim's faction questlines are the best in the series. The only problem with Skyrim's faction questlines, in my opinion, is merely that they are far too short.

eternal tapir
#

Did... did you have the audacity to commit heresy against the popular opinion? BY AKATOSH, I WILL SHOW YOU THE WAY TO OBLIVION 😠

#

(btw we need oblivion portal emote)

dim reef
chrome glacier
#

You sorta can, to my knowledge, the only faction you can’t kill, right off the bat, are the minutemen

#

Since you need them to finish the game

#

Like how in New Vegas you can’t kill Yes Man

dim reef
#

Yeah, sure. You can kill maxson, father, and desdemona, along with other npcs. But you can't kill everyone you see.

chrome glacier
#

Not everyone, some npc’s are required for main plot questlines. But Elder scrolls games don’t have the same branching paths like fallout games do

dim reef
#

Only 3 fallout games have branching paths.

weak sapphire
#

Depends on the scale your talking about

#

1, 2, 3, New Vegas and 4 all have branching paths for some quests, to a lesser or greater degree.

dim reef
#

And so does daggerfall, morrowind, oblivion, and skyrim.

But main quest wise, with huge branching paths, only 3 fallout games are included.

weak sapphire
#

Personally, i think branching for major storylines is overrated...

#

The lack of permanence significantly undermines the emotional impact, as does the lack of cohesive community experience

#

Like, find me a game with branching storylines that hits as hard as Aerith's death. Or Ellie's almost assault.

spice whale
#

regarding that immersion breaking travel on foot @weak sapphire
Walking vs. Horseback Riding. Pushing a horse to achieve 60 miles daily would certainly cause it to founder sooner rather than later. On a pilgrimage a rider might average five to seven miles an hour, and medieval travelers accustomed to walking found travel on foot faster. A horse fatigues long before a man and recovers more slowly. Italian merchant families hired runners who would travel 55 miles a day for a week’s stretch and then rest for a week instead of messengers on horseback.

#

problem here, i don't see who actually wrote the article. Was it historian at all? some anon forum user? no idea, though they do provide sources

weak sapphire
#

The figures look mostly right, whoever it was. Point being, you wouldn't be going from Leyawin to Chorral on sundays for lunch with Mum.

spice whale
#

umm, you mean Lady Carro? don't think she has anything else to do..

gray mesa
weak sapphire
#

As for TW3, i got arguably the besylt ending on the firsg try, becausr of a major philosophical problem with that style of storytelling

#

Just follow Wheaton's Law, and you almost always get the best ensing

gray mesa
#

I think TES is very well built from for branching stories. The story already is rather disconnected, thanks to no pre defined protagonist and TES is already made to be repayable with all the different possible builds.
Adding to that by making it even more repayable by having some considerable variation in the story sounds like a logical step.
I always replay for different builds and Guilds, but usually don't go down the main quest more than once, since there is nothing new to experience.

#

Gameplay wise TES is designed for replayability, but writing wise it's just so lacking there.

weak sapphire
#

I can confidently say i have never replayed a game for an alternate ending

#

And there are other ways to encourage replay

gray mesa
#

Well, that's you. Also it's not JUST for an alternative ending.
Again, gameplay wise TES is already made to be replayable, so it would be logical to add to this by having more variation in the story, too

weak sapphire
#

But you don't need alternate endings to do that

gray mesa
#

And I can confidently say that many people already do multiple playthroughs just for branching stories alone.
TES encourages multiple playthroughs gameplay wise, but discourages multiple playthroughs of the story.
It just doesn't make much sense.

#

I never said alternative endings specifically

weak sapphire
#

Fair. Whenever branching story comes up, i assume alternqte endings

#

Which us my fault

gray mesa
#

We were talking about branching stories. Theoretically the branches could connect again to one ending, but that would be a bit lame.

#

As long as the story can have considerable differences in another playthrough, beyond you just having another build.

weak sapphire
#

I think the connectig stories os far from lame

#

It presents a single cohesive storyline composed of multiple stories, like any decently complex narrative would

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Like, its not like, narratively speaking, Elenwyn is just sitting around doing nothing when she's nkt at the party, or the peace talks

gray mesa
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I just think since replayability is a major selling point of TES it should dedicate itself to that more, because there is no point in playing the story again if it's the exact same.
I pretty much never played a TES story more than once, but through this my second playthrough characters just fizzle out rather early, once I had enough of the build. Only mods give new purpose, but it shouldn't just depend on those.
Idk, just seems very inconsistent from a game design perspective.
Everything in TES just screams for having a story that varies from playthrough to playthrough.

weak sapphire
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And i disagree. You're engaging in events of the world, and those are going to only have one outcome.

gray mesa
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That's not even really true if you look at sidequests, especially the Civil War.

weak sapphire
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That doesn't mean some variability can't exist, for instance. The Civil War could have easily been cut into 4 independent questlines, all tellinv different sides of the conflict, but reaching the same conclusion.

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And i think the mutually exclusive outcomes of the Civil War were a huge mistake, and will actively hamper future games ability to talk about a major political event.

gray mesa
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Bethesda is just gonna just one of the options as canon, seems rather simple to me

weak sapphire
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In an attempt to mimic terrible gaming tropes, Bethesda activrly hamstrung its own franchise

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Highly unlikely. They're going to pull a non-commital answer and just sweep it under ue rug

gray mesa
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That's what games with varying outcomes usually do

weak sapphire
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Yeah, and its dumb

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Lets give people control of their own destiny and story, and then tell half or more of them they were wrong and their chojces didn't actually matter

gray mesa
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And... The better alternative is to not have variation at all?

weak sapphire
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Look at the dumpster fire Mass Effect became because of that. They had to run to another entire galaxy just to try and cover their mistake

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I didn't say that. Present a decent, multifasceted story that needs to he viewed from multiple angles to get the whole picture

gray mesa
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This seems your general philosophy and I don't understand it.
Rather cut options and features from a game for smaller issues than living with those issues and having more options.
It's odd to me.

weak sapphire
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Though, as a matter of fact, yes, i do think a single linear story is superior to literally every alternate ending one i have ever seen.

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I would rather a toque, a cowboy hat, and a bowler, than 100 colours of toque

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Superficial options are not options, they're just flashy things to distract you from shortcomings.

gray mesa
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From a writing perspective a perfectly curated story will always be superior. From a gameplay and replayability perspective its far inferior though.
I'm not really playing TES for a curated experience, for that I prefer other games.

dim reef
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Alternate endings just messy up writing and canonicity. It's needless. Just make branching pathways to get to the same main questline...oh wait...