#elder-scrolls-general-chat

1 messages · Page 41 of 1

pulsar root
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Difficulty to me means I understand there has to be friction to player but if the friction is so big that it becomes frustrating, that is when I object.

hard prairie
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morrowind got that awkward time periods when 3d games were beginning to be figured out lol

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more obvious hit animations would also help

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I feel like the combat is too iconic to be changed, it's easy when u figure out it just has more rpg mechanics

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but yeah better feedback and a dialogue box explaining hit chance could alleviate it lol

hearty otter
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That would be good enough in my book

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I don't ask for much in terms of Morrowind. Morrowind is 9/10 already

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9/10 is pretty damn high praise

astral hollow
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The things I enjoyed the most was the story, and the adventure. The main character of Morrowind starts out being called an outlander, then goes on to become a great hero who eventually leaves for an Akavir adventure. Its very inspiring.

finite totem
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I hope we see black light soon

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Only representation is has is arena

raven current
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dawg it was a light-hearted video + a $10,000 charity event
Presumably if there was anything of much substance they were ready to announce, they would've announced it
you're biting the dude's head off for having some fun and engaging with the community

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The game's still in development, it's still a ways out.

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This is just toxic dude. Notwithstanding my own criticisms with modern journalism in general, it's literally their jobs to report on this stuff. News is news.

next girder
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I have a question for anyone who plays ESO do you know how many times you can subclass?

hearty otter
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Yeah - it's more that Any is a philosopher & analyst regarding video games rather than a journalist - he has never pretended to be a journalist. I enjoy his work immensely

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I highly recommend Any Austin's work. He makes you look at video games differently as a whole

raven current
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the hell are you swinging me for, I'm not the one who was going off at Austin's vid?

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Also yes I am autistic, for the record. I sure do appreciate being demeaned for that, especially from someone claiming to be an ally.

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I have no clue why you're going after me all of a sudden or why you think any of this is some personal vendetta, but you can damn well explain yourself if you're going to claim I'm attacking anyone, because right now it's just you attacking me.

junior kettle
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I think Any Austin is a fun one solely because it's kinda light heartedly riffing on videos that look at the detail too much but also he adds in a lot of fun stuff like I didn't know all the ways surveyors use to estimate how many trees are in a forest or the ridiculous amount of pipes in starfield actually having minor details that are easy for people to miss

feral viper
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Literally had not heard of Any Austin before yesterday, so.

feral viper
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Beyond that, if reporting on the banter of a used car salesman is news, we're already doomed.

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And this is symptomatic if a chronic problem with Bethesda's communication. We get nothing at all for months, and then what we do get isn't even serious news. It's shooting the breeze with C list celebrities.

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Even Creative Assembly has better community discourse.

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Their communication is about as abysmal as TES's worldbuilding at this point.

livid ingot
junior kettle
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Which the first part is why game companies have become more tight lipped because a vocal minority of gamers will find any reason to hate mob on stuff they don't like

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This is also why a lot of industry devs just don't advertise they're a dev anymore, because hate mobs, doxing and death threats are common when the discourse gets big

livid ingot
junior kettle
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I think involving the fans in the design aspect is a terrible idea that will either end with the community tearing itself apart or the game becoming abandoned because it's just constant feature creep.

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It'd be better to just have a robust modding system like Bethesda games has

livid ingot
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Feature creep would fall under time and cost, come to think. Although I was initially thinking about all the community management and effort spent at monitoring community feedback.

junior kettle
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Feedback is one thing, I'm cool with devs listening to feedback, hence why I like starfield as a roleplaying game more than Skyrim or fallout 4 but letting the community have a role in the production of the game can easily lead to numerous problems

livid ingot
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I think time spent on a feature that then proves extremely unpopular with a vocal minority of the community could transmute into loads of lost dev time when most of the fans might be fine with it

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E.g. if they don't change/adjust it then it looks like they're not taking fan feedback seriously

junior kettle
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Yea because including fan feedback in the actual development process is a mistake

livid ingot
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But there are lots of different ways of involving the community. The fans don't have to dictate features or whatever to be more involved.

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It could help guide what they should focus more dev time on, especially by following positive feedback

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Rather than negative

junior kettle
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Nah it's going to end terribly with a load of community discourse

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Eagles fans are more civil than gaming communities

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But hey the video essay on it self-destructing will be fun

feral viper
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There's a line to walk. NOT engaging and doing whatever you're told, are extreme ends of the discourse spectrum. And both are terrible.

Bethesda is very much on one of those extremes.

And when someone from Bethesda DOES say something, it's meaningless sales fluff that serves as little more than tricking goldfish with rocks.

raven current
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Again, I stress, it was a charity event, not The Game Awards. I'm not engaging further, I find this conversation very toxic.

stark flower
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Let's be respectful to each other please.

feral viper
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It's not just this event. This has been the status quo of discourse from Bethesda for decades now. Ever since Radiant AI was brought up for Oblivion.

It's not an isolated event.

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Though I am amused by the trend changes elsewhere.

In 2006, you could win awards for your slapshod procedural AI in a game. Today, you get awards taken away for accidentally using procedural AI assets in a game.

junior kettle
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Nah Bethesda does a decent job considering how hostile gamers can get. There's a lot of land mines to navigate with PR nowadays which isn't really new, numerous game companies aren't revealing much about a game until it's ready to be seen because if you show something that ends up getting scrapped in development or something happens that changes the course

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Look at cyberpunk 2077, it advertised so much like wall climbing or random events where gangsters in a van will come up and shoot you yet none of that was actually in the finished build of the game. Or no man's sky which advertised so much than launched in a terrible buggy state, both saw their devs getting harassed

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Now look how tight lipped both have become in recent years. It's due to the fact navigating PR for video games is a nightmare

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Bethesda showing us the moon, the sun and everything underneath isn't actually anything either especially when, as I've said, stuff gets cut in development, which was an issue with Skyrim where Todd was promising so much and then we learned it got caught in development. It was a meme about Todd lying.

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The issue is more long development times instead of Bethesda constantly showing everything they're doing. Bethesda is currently doing an alright job with PR

pulsar root
feral viper
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I was hoping to end the year on an optimistic note, but this has thoroughly soured that.

Especially when I look at other studios that do communicate better. Paradox, and now CA are standouts, keeping their communities informed and engaged, even on things that eventually get dropped.

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Hell, we know the last 2 Ship Rework models Paradox has tested and scrapped for Stellaris because of this communication

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Meanwhile...

If it says 7000 steps, I'm going to make sure there's 7000 steps (spoilers, even if you count paces it's only about 4800)

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Like, just give us something useful.

"We're doing a full pass over the combat to try and make it more engaging and dynamic" or "We're going to re-examine Alchemy to create more options and fun interactions for players".

We don't even need details. Just an idea on the WHAT would be an improvement over what we get.

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Like, we can't even begin to try to offer any sort of input or insight, because we don't even know what they're trying to look at mechanically.

Leaving all community discourse to just fling ideas into the wind and pray. And prayer is notoriously useless.

feral viper
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Though considering the community thinks Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood was amazing, maybe Disaster is right.

Maybe it's best not to listen to the community.

livid ingot
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The first folly is always assuming the devs would listen to our suggestions rather than somebody else's diametrically opposed ones

feral viper
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Sure, but not listening to anyone gets you nonsense like FO4 not knowing what sarcasm is.

junior kettle
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God, I hope the dark brotherhood isn't in 6

pulsar root
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💀

feral viper
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If the 'Destroy the Brotherhood' quest was canon...

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Well, that's not true.

I'd still be a grumpy old curmudgeon. But I'd be HAPPIER

glad shadow
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Why wouldnt they be in 6

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Theyre like the main side quest faction in the last 2 main games

junior kettle
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Because even if they do survive in Skyrim it ends up being a small chapter with just three senior members and cicero, this is it for the dark brotherhood, that's their last sanctuary. It would take years for them to actually recover and build their network of contracts, in that time we would see the void they left be filled in by other groups, I would prefer something less cartoony death cult and more business.

pulsar root
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Removing them would be a waste. They're a big part of ES. Even if it takes years to rebuild, thats fine. ES generally likes to do time jumps anyways.

junior kettle
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Or we can just have something new

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Having something unique for the area would have more impact and be great for the lore of the area

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Better yet they could do what they did in Morrowind by having the dark brotherhood go from a joinable faction and become an antagonistic faction to the local assassin guild

pulsar root
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New for the sake of new isn't good. We shouldn't remove things from ES that is part of its identity. You can change the direction of the Dark Brotherhood but removing them entirely i not a good idea.

junior kettle
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TES has a TON of identities

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Mages Guild and Fighter's Guild have been in the games since Daggerfall but yet we don't see them in Skyrim, in fact the Mages Guild as an institution is just gone.

gloomy kraken
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probbo bc sk*rim is poopoo

feral viper
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Not like, evil bad.

But like, Jersey Shore bad.

gloomy kraken
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who?

junior kettle
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I think people wouldn't bat an eye if the brotherhood didn't get a place in 6

glad shadow
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🤷‍♂️

pulsar root
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"Wouldn't bat an eye"

This community? Thats rubbish

junior kettle
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Nah

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People can handle new things and if they can't well, learn to mod.

gloomy kraken
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you can have new things while still having the dark brotherhood?

glad shadow
junior kettle
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Yea have the DB be the enemy like they did in Morrowind

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Again, I'd rather something new and original instead of constantly going "Look we know this faction ended with like three members but also now they're more powerful in a short span of time and this is their home"

glad shadow
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Brotherhood got acquired by a larger company

junior kettle
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Having a local cult or a group of for hired blades that don't worship a god would actually put more into the setting

gloomy kraken
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short span of time?

junior kettle
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Again, the dark brotherhood was joinable in Daggerfall, you don't see people complaining about the Morag Tong

gloomy kraken
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do you know when tes6 takes place?

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bc for all we know they do another stupid time jump of 200 years

junior kettle
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Nah a lot of that 200 years is covered by the books

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The only thing the books didn't really touch was the great war period

gloomy kraken
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legends touched that

junior kettle
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I don't see them just doing a random time jump again, not unless they release a ton of stuff next year that did what the books did

gloomy kraken
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kinda liked that all games had not much of a timejump

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I, II, dawnstar, stormhold, shadowkey III and IV are all under 60 years appart

junior kettle
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Yea I wouldn't be surprised if we see that again

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I kinda want them to just include a map where most of the old borders are changed to reflect all the lands changing hand, no more of what the TEM used

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Honestly I think the thieves guild and dark brotherhood's themes should be combined into one faction much like how in Starfield Vanguard is basically two factions

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Have one questline as a regular goon, the other questline being a hitman

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Being treated as a professional assassin around other professionals instead of cartoony death cult would be more fun

gloomy kraken
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I disagree

junior kettle
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You like death cults though

gloomy kraken
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I just like religious organizations

junior kettle
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In that regard the next game should do what morrowind did and make a local faith faction, specifically how Morrowind did it where you learn a LOT about the setting by doing pilgrimages

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Honestly doing the pilgrimages in Morrowind is my new favorite way of teaching players about a setting that is a downright shame not many games do

feral viper
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The Dark Brotherhood is more of a parody of a religious organization. It's what book club moms of the 70s and 80s thought you did at D&D during the height of the satanic panic.

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Even before I wrote off the entire setting, I viewed the Dark Brotherhood as entirely unavailable.

And my bullet list of problems with Oblivion's questioned and faction are so long, I get warnings from Dyno if I post it.

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The Dark Brotherhood is so bad, even Hot Topic wouldn't stock their stuff.

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You think I'm negative about the terrible PR?

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I'm not actually going to go into detail, as in sure the mods are already quite cross with me and I'm on ice thinner than a quick frost in November.

pulsar root
hard prairie
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I like oblivion DB but it is really stupid if you think about it as a real organization

junior kettle
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I'm saying Bethesda should make new factions

hard prairie
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it's kind of a joke but it used to be the cool evil aesthetic we had at home in '06

junior kettle
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I'm not saying remove the Dark Brotherhood, I think it would be more interesting if they made new factions that replace the roles of other groups

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like for instance instead of fighter's guild we got Companions, instead of the mages guild we have the college of winterhold.

hard prairie
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thing is bethesda is creatively dead now

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i dont expect them to make something thats both new and interesting, thats too much to ask

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last time we got new factions Really was in morrowind, except maybe the dawnguard and how they handled winterhold

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but i think both winterhold and the companions fail because they're both "Fighters guild But in skyrim" and "Mages guild But in skyrim"

feral viper
junior kettle
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Dawnguard should come back just so I can have their cool armor

hard prairie
feral viper
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Yeah. I'd go so far as to say the death was somewhere between 2002 and 2006.

gloomy kraken
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so around my birth, srry guys I ruined everything

feral viper
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Nah, it's not your fault.

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I'd say the cause was born somewhere in the 70s

hard prairie
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its not you, the game was rigged from the start

feral viper
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On that note, season 2 of Fallout may actually fix a bit of New Vegas.

hard prairie
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hasn't done any favors so far

pulsar root
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"Creatively dead" Another hot take.

gloomy kraken
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starting to notice that all the unc's on this discord just complain all the time x)

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it's whatever I vibe with it ig

feral viper
hard prairie
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if only i were the only one thinking that lol

junior kettle
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The thieves guild in 6 should be based around starting out as a minor thief, getting noticed and then get handed a smuggling operation

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Being a head of the thieves guild should have more crime involvement

hard prairie
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i liked the idea of the progression for the thieves guild in Oblivion, if only it weren't so easy

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like have to fence an X amount of gold stolen by yourself before getting a new quest

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at least you had to like be a thief to advance

feral viper
junior kettle
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I prefer Morrowind's take of it's a crime organization that has a hand in smuggling operations. The thieves guild focusing around organized crime is way better than "suddenly a tamrielic wide network of criminals is just now robin hood"

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That's something Skyrim's did for a bit but I want an entire faction based around being a gang member

gloomy kraken
pulsar root
hard prairie
feral viper
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That's my beef.

At this point, I've written off the setting. The amount of work to salvage it, in my mind, isn't even worth the attempt at this point.

junior kettle
hard prairie
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i'm like a narcissistic uncle who criticizes my nepew/niece bethesda to their face so they'll get better

gloomy kraken
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yea no I get that I absolutely dislike skyrim bc of what a downgrade it is from previous titles, to the point that people meme about it

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having 6k hours in that game and everything lmao 😭

gloomy kraken
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not trying to judge anyone srry if it came across wrong!!! 💚

feral viper
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Gameplay is a whole other topic, of course. And I think that Bethesda falls on one side of a line.

They're either brilliant visionaries that are really bad at making games.

Or they're mediocre game makers who stumble into brilliance and don't know what to do with the results.

pulsar root
hard prairie
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dont worry

junior kettle
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For me I've just been playing a lot of Morrowind with Project Cyrodiil and Tamriel Rebuilt, so much that I'm seeing better ideas from unpaid hobbyists keeping their favorite game alive and then looking at well skyrim lol

feral viper
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It's even worse.

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Though, when I was young, a friend and I used to just grab cold hotdogs out of the fridge and eat them.

hard prairie
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thats disgusting

feral viper
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I was an 80s kid. How we ever survived to adulthood is a miracle of science

gloomy kraken
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my mom is from the 80s too!

hard prairie
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i say that but i have definitely eaten cold hotdogs too lol

gloomy kraken
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'84

feral viper
gloomy kraken
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lmao she gonna be a grandma in april 😭

feral viper
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How I feel right now.

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Also, for those who don't know. That's Rameses II. I'd recognise that nose anywhere.

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My second favourite Pharoah.

gloomy kraken
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who is your first?

feral viper
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Narmer

gloomy kraken
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nice (idk who that is need to get pharoah lore clearly)

feral viper
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Narmer is possibly also known as King Scorpion, the founder of dynastic Egypt and the first recorded Pharpah

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Depending on your position, he's possibly the founder of the first Empire.

Though that depends on if you consider the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt an Imperial Dominion.

If not, Sargon of Akkad gets the title

gloomy kraken
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interesting

feral viper
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Rounding out my top 3, would be Sensuret III, who was arguably the greatest Pharoah of the Middle Kingdom.

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Rameses II is pretty low hanging fruit for favourite though. Dude is pretty much agreed to be the greatest Pharoah of dynastic Egypt, lived to be 90, and outlived so many of his children his great-great grandkids were buried in his massive tomb complex.

night ember
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but yeah I'm very curious to see how modern Bethesda writes a story about different cultures. Prob won't be as bad as veilguard but close in many ways.

stark flower
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Let's not bring politics into the chat.

gloomy kraken
stark flower
night ember
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ESO being a perfect example lmao

stark flower
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Just keep it on topic please.

feral viper
stark flower
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It's always been Wankershim

feral viper
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It's always been Wankershim

hearty otter
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As much as I get exasperated with Todd Howard, somehow, I can't bring myself to hate him. I should but he's that kind of person who makes a pun that makes you groan then laugh then snorting after realising that he made you laugh and enjoy his corny wordplay when logically you shouldn't.

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It's a weird kind of qualia tbh

feral viper
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He is incredibly charismatic.

Even if I don't trust a word he says, I can't hate him.

gloomy kraken
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He could sell me a rusted broken car

feral viper
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I mean, hasn't he been doing that since 2006?

honest pumice
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umm can others log into eso online

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??

trail dust
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i feel like youtube videos kinda ruin the whole lore discussion around skyrim

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Cause nearly all of it end up as people making up fanfic and acting like its the lore. Then they proceed to use that to argue against the lore and the game. And its really easy to tell from what this source is. Its really biased youtubers who actually dont know the lore

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cause i see the same statements made ,every single time. with the same lack of details, every single time. with the same assumption, every single time

feral viper
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That's a chronic problem with TES more broadly, and has been for literal decades.

The lore is so cobbled together that there is no way to coherently piece it together, leaving the community to try and fill in the massive gaps with speculation, apocrypha and fanfics.

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And those gap-fillers tend to persist fat longer than they have any right to.

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For instance, when I jumped ship, the Lore Community STILL perpetuated the idea that you become the Nerevarine in Morrowind.

Despite the fact that ESO clearly established that 'becomming' was a misinterpretation of the prophecy, and that Azura knew exactly who her Nerevarine would be

dim reef
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That was something written later

feral viper
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Also, partial fulfilments and dual fulfilments of prophecy are garbage hermeneutics anyway.

Morrowind overwhelmingly indicates that you are the Nerevarine from square one. The ONLY dispute of that is Nibani, who everyone for some reason takes as gospel

dim reef
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During Morrowind's time you do actually become the Nerevarine out of all the false incarnates. Oblivion then added the idea of literal chosen ones so they had to mold MW's lore with hindsight

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Like even the idea of who a DB could be was left vague in MW.

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Oblivion then went like "nah we got definitive chosen ones with clear proof"

feral viper
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Nah, Morrowind was pretty clear. Azura, Vivec, and Dagoth Ur all clearly identify you as the Nerevarine.

The conditions of the Prophecy were not active accomplishments but predictors.

And even out of game statements clearly say you were supposed to be the Dunmer Messiah from the start.

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Nibani is the only dissenter. And her position doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

dim reef
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Eh not really. It's left vague how much the other incarnates were affected by it. Dagoth and Azura could've simply treated them the same as you. You just don't see it.

The main thing is the game left it vague

feral viper
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You have to invent things to even make it kinda fit.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, when you are presented with the perfect opportunity to test for it.

dim reef
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You are the only one who make it through all the trails so ofcourse only you get all the special treatment.

However the other incarnates could've done so too and they likely would've been recieved the same way

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The game purposefully left it vague

feral viper
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Literally NO Incarnates mention being told they were chosen, like the PC was.

dim reef
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They don't really say anything to imply they weren't.
The whole idea of the failed ones is they though they were chosen meaning they likely recived the same signs as you

feral viper
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The game did not. It was explicit. People just pretend it was vague because they want it to be.

Like, Azura literally calls you Chosen in the intro.

dim reef
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The whole "born on uncertain day, uncertain parents" etc. Etc.

feral viper
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It was also flat out impossible for some of them to BE the Nerevarine, because they lacked the ability to fulfil certain conditions.

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Predating the Blight, for instance.

dim reef
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You were given the same signs as the others. But only you fully succeeded.

feral viper
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Nah, there was no trying.

Incarnates are simply born with at least a part of Nerevar's soul. That's only the very first part.

The Nerevarine WOULD be an Incarnate. That doesn't mean any Incarnate could be the Nerevarine.

dim reef
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The main indicator is the corprus cure. The game leaves it very vague as to whether or not your immunity to it is intentional or accidental

feral viper
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X will be Y, does not mean all Ys are X's

dim reef
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Again. It's left vague. That's the idea

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Oblivion made it so X IS Y. No ifs or buts

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There are no trials in Oblivion like there were in MW. You and Martin just ARE chosen ones

feral viper
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Morrowind was never vague. You have to adhere to poor hermeneutics to get to that position.

And then ESO made it even more explicit than it already was.

And yet, people STILL cling to the belief that it was vague.

dim reef
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ESO did tie is together with later lore but it is definitely kept vague in MW itself.

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I do like the idea of definitive chosen ones from birth but i can see where those people are coming from

feral viper
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The only way it's not clear, is if Azura, Vivec and Dagoth are all lying or mistaken. All the Incarnates ommited crucial information from their stories. Moon and Star doesn't actually kill people. The Prophecies are instructions instead of prophecies. Surviving the corpus cure is a fluke. And a random wise woman who doesn't even have all the prophecies is the only person in all of Morrowind that is correct.

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It just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Just like New Vegas having good writing doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

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And this fits with the wider franchise even before.

The Eternal Champion was the child of a high ranking Imperial official specifically chosen because they saw through Tharn's ruse.

The Agent was the James Bond of Tamriel, specifically sent by their friend -THE EMPEROR- to clean up the mess the rest of the Blades had caused.

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Because the Blades are notoriously bad at their jobs.

tardy tiger
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Also aren't game mechanics clear on it?

Because you killed the wrong people at "3E 427" the prophecy breaks.

dim reef
# feral viper The only way it's not clear, is if Azura, Vivec and Dagoth are all lying or mist...

Vivec only addresses you properly after you become the Nerevarine and pass most everything.
Dagoth and Azura again could've talked the same way to every other incarnate. It's not explicitly stated.
They were all given signs. What those signs were we don't know. They could've very well been the same as us.

It does hold up to scrutiny well because there's nothing to scrutinize like later games

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There's no definitive proof like the amulet of mcguffins or stealing dragon souls

tardy tiger
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Well there is a ring if I recall. Though the ring sucks so you tend to get rid of it

dim reef
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Yeah but i don't think there's any rule that only you can wear it iirc

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Is there?

tardy tiger
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"The enchanted ring called Moon-and-Star -- or One-Clan-Under-Moon-and-Star, as the Ashlanders call it -- was forged for the hero Nerevar by one of the Dwemer Sorcerer-Priest Kagrenac's smiths, and blessed by the Daedra Lord Azura. The ring gave Nerevar supernatural powers of persuasion and indisputable proof of identity, since any other who tried to wear the ring would be killed instantly."

dim reef
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So did the other failed incarnates not wear it?

tardy tiger
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I don't think they ever had it which probably further emphasizes the ring's need as proof. Though the main quest's writing kinda forgets about the ring very quickly

dim reef
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Well that's the really the thing with Morrowind which is what I'm saying. The failed incarnates never got the chance to check if they are the chosen or not.

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In Oblivion or Skyrim there's no doubt. There's no failed incarnates. There's only one Sun's Companion, One DB

tardy tiger
dim reef
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Could it be they existed before Dagoth started sending sleepers en masse?

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Announce Soule

pulsar root
feral viper
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Anyway, point being, TES's lore is a puzzle. Except it's actually 3 puzzles, none of them complete, and they're all thrown into the same unmarked cardboard box without a picture.

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So of course lore videos and lore communities have a tendency to engage in rampant fanfiction.

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Especially after the C0DA incident.

tardy tiger
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Reminds me of the levitation act. TES has never said what it does outside of making one guy sad.
Fanon has run away with the idea that it bans levitation but it never says what the act does.

feral viper
#

Or even HOW one would go about banning something like that

#

Of course, TES has never actually detailed how magic works anyway, so...

dim reef
#

The Levitation act is definitely just a half arsed explanation for why they gutted Levitation in gameplay

#

I'd wager with Starfield having zero g combat they might bring it back next game

#

I hope they do cos' the zero g combat in Starfield is quite fun

feral viper
#

If terribly underutilized.

#

I was hoping we'd see more of it in Shattered Space.... But nope. That was just useless bubbles in a waste area that you run through like twice.

#

I... Really do not like Shattered Space...

tardy tiger
#

"He's getting older, but he can still teach a bit about Alteration. He's been teaching it since before the Levitation Act of 421."

"He still teaches, though he lost his passion for it after the Levitation Act was passed. Can't say I blame him."

It's two random lines in the Imperial City. And that is all the lore about the Levitation Act

dim reef
tardy tiger
#

Only for the player though. Didn't stop a Synod mage during the novels

feral viper
#

At the same time, the novels made it clear that knowledge of Levitation was mostly lost, and is jealously guarded BY the Synod.

In just like... 30 years. A mass-available spell known by thousands vanished.

#

Because 'Magic, how does it even work'

#

It would be like everyone who was alive in the 90s forgetting the words to Smells Like Teen Spirit, except for a secretive cult operating out of a single music school

junior kettle
#

Honestly the levitation act makes sense considering how useful it is for thieves and assassins, the traveler's league being gone sucks

#

There should be teleportation around

#

Also considering fallout 4, 76 and starfield having jetpacks we might see a return of levitation

feral viper
#

It makes sense legally, but not practically.

#

But it's an example of the generally bad worldbuilding in most fantasy settings, not just TES.

No one considers how magic like this would actually impact the development of societies.

Levitation isn't something you can control, with laws, so instead you'd control the problems stemming from it by changing how you build things. Windows with bars, or frequent use of narrowed windows, would become far more common, to restrict access to floors above ground level. Chimneys would be more like Victorian pip-chimneys far earlier, so you couldn't slip in that way.

#

At the same time, balconies would become second entrances to homes, with some houses probably not even HAVING ground level entrances.

junior kettle
#

Yea that's Telvanni

#

Wizards who don't believe in the idea of stairs

feral viper
#

Yeah, Morrowind did better than most settings. And better than anything TES related has done since.

dim reef
hearty otter
#

If levitation was a thing in the real world, ramps nor stairs would be needed depending on the attitudes to accessibility. For some reason, I don't think Telvanni had the most enlightened attitude to the reasons for accessibility 😉

#

They levitated just because they could XD

dim reef
#

Probably Inon is the composer

stoic latch
#

Hi can anyone help me with settings for oblivion remastered I’m getting awful performance on my steam deck oled 1tb a solid 10 frames per second dropping to 1 in Loading screens

tender oar
#

hey guys doing my first ever playthrogh as a warrior on ES4 remastered, any advicce?

noble verge
# dim reef Hm. There's one thing common among these. All of these seem to have existed befo...

I think it's mostly because Dagoth Ur's awakening is a relatively recent development, while the Tribunal have been gods since the first millennium of the First Era.

We know one of the failed incarnates- Peakstar- appeared recently enough that in TES III some people are skeptical at the claims that she's dead, and when you meet her ghost she says she was killed by an Ash Vampire.

#

What I find curious is the fact that the prophecies themselves foretell many failed incarnates before the appearance of the "real" or at least "successful" Nerevarine. I think it's not coincidence- that the Nerevarine was always destined to appear in the late 3rd Era, that only when Morrowind was under partial subjugation by the Empire and backed into a corner by Dagoth Ur were the conditions right for a Nerevarine to appear and fulfil the signs.

#

And that the failed incarnates were always destined to fail, to serve as heralds and portents for the coming of the Nerevarine

junior kettle
#

Important to remember that the prophecy had the issue of being a oral tradition instead of written down so overtime it got details wrong, that's why the lost prophecies makes sure to mention that the Nerevarine was supposed to be an outlander born under the banner of the dragon or "dragon-born" in the poetic sense

#

The original prophecy also became corrupted to be one of vengeance, the lost prophecy makes no mention of driving out the outlanders, the empire or even punishing the Tribunal. It's entirely around ending the threat House Dagoth poses because Dagoth Ur's plans are extremely dangerous to the whole of Nirn as well as breaking the point of Lorkhan's plan by trying to be the only dreamer

#

Even the parts of the actual prophecies that are about the Tribunal is about the Nerevarine's mercy of freeing them from the curse of godhood

"His mercy frees the cursed false gods,
Binds the broken, redeems the mad."

#

Honestly this is why the Nerevarine prophecy is a lot of fun because you have the original version that got lost but you also have the version that got corrupted to actually be about what Dagoth Ur wants. It's possible he had a hand corrupting the prophecies because Dagoth Ur would rather have Nerevar Reborn join him than be an enemy because Dagoth Ur's love for Nerevar is genuine

wide garnet
#

I’ve got something from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction that’ll really wrinkle your eyebrows:

Apparently, a Thalmor mage went rogue: summoning daedra, etc., and even going so far as to open a new Oblivion Gate, but when the Inquisition Templars payed a visit, he allowed himself to be captured. But it was only when they interviewed his wife that the reason why he did this was revealed: it was all part of a plot to try to get away from his wife!!!

When it was all said and done, the Inquisitor had truly delivered divine retribution on his head: he is going to be lending his considerable knowledge to the Inquisition, but only after six months of house arrest.

pulsar root
junior kettle
#

I think Morrowind handled it the best because most ancient prophecies would get corrupted throughout the ages, especially considering Ashlanders don't write things down and at first you're thinking "Oh ok this kinda fits with the xenophobia of Morrowind" but then remembering but wait this is from the first era, why is it so specific for modern events?

#

But also it aligning so perfectly to Dagoth Ur's plans is like oh, ok so not only did it get muddled by thousands of years of oral tradition but Dagoth Ur is probably actively having a hand in it

#

it's not the prophecy is wrong or bad it's it has, willingly or unwillingly, got changed because relying on it being right for thousands of years is not very accurate

tame matrix
#

I hope elder scrolls 6 has a bunch of companions who can die while adventuring with you instead of a few immortal ones

dim reef
#

no. i'd hate that

#

keep them essential in gameplay. if you want them to be killable let it be in a quest by choice

#

essentially how both FO4 and Starfield handle it but expand it to let everyone be killable by choice

#

actually Starfield does kind of do that, any of your companions can die in that one quest

timid drum
#

When nps are non essential, and they get killed by "accident" you get inheritance money therefore free money in skyrim. NukaCola

pulsar root
#

My preference is keep them alive

tame matrix
#

Killable followers = more variables to create a unique story experience for the player. I see no downsides.

dim reef
#

I'd rather much rather have essential followers than let them be killed because of janky ai

tame matrix
#

Stuff like that creates more memorable moments than something like sam crawling around in the middle of a battle cause he took too many hits

dim reef
tame matrix
dim reef
#

Doesn't work. When the eye goes green everyone starts fighting

noble verge
#

One thing I wish Morrowind had was some dialogue with one of the Ash Vampires where they bring up killing Peakstar.

tame matrix
#

And again, if something happens that you dont want to happen in ur game such as a companion death, just reload a save

dim reef
#

I can tell them to stand far away and they'll still randomly start fighting

#

I don't want to keep reloading saves because of the ai being stupid. Which is why i personally hate non essential followers

tame matrix
dim reef
#

And i don't want to get annoyed over some false sense of control when the very idea of the ai being stupid is immersion breaking to begin with.

Best choice. Let it be optional like NV

#

Those that want it turn it on. Those that don't keep it off

tame matrix
#

You can also just not bring companions for parts that you know will be better done alone

dim reef
#

That's not a solution. Nowadays companions specifically have quest reactions and dialogues which is one of their biggest appeals. I don't want to miss out on that

noble verge
#

I want a middle ground- make it so your companion won't die to trash mobs, but also make it that they can be killed via story choices. Or by you.

dim reef
#

I can get behind story choices. Essentially what Bioware does. Everyone's killable via story choices but not in gameplay

tame matrix
dim reef
#

No it won't. It'll be annoying because it's not my fault or choice they died. It's the game being goofy

#

It's extremely unsatisfying and annoying

tame matrix
#

The best part of an rpg is getting a whole different experience with each playthrough

noble verge
#

I think it depends on how they died.

dim reef
#

I agree. I just don't think doing a different playthrough solely because of a bad game mechanic is a good idea

tame matrix
dim reef
#

Again. My solution would be to simply let it be optional like NV. Add a setting that lets you turn them essential or non essential. Please both sides

timid drum
#

Think yall should agree to disagree /nvm

dim reef
#

Ye

pulsar root
junior kettle
#

Optional is best yea

feral viper
#

Options are for the weak.

#

Everyone should be forced to play exactly as defined by some obscure tryhard powergamer on Twitch

wide garnet
#

Okay, I’ve got something new I’d like to share from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

Inquisitor Maxwell Trevelyan to Calcelmo in Markarth, greetings,

I’m delivering this report to General Tullius as well as you because I believe you’re going to find this interesting:

We’ve found an enclave of Dwemer living in Thedas! Not only that, the entrance to that Enclave is at the Mountain of Skyhold. Officially, it’s an outpost to explore the possibilities of “sky-touched lyrium”, but their leader has a very unique distinction: he’s Dumac Dwarfking’s eldest son. However, the outpost was attacked by Darkspawn shortly after the First Blight ended, and he and his followers (after sealing themselves safely in stasis pods, which I have no idea how that works) initiated some kind of Magicka “bombardment” to both secure the Dwemer city and kill off the Darkspawn.

I must also ask that you do not pester Dumac’s son (whom we’re calling Leif Dumacsson because no one can pronounce his Dwemer name) with questions. We’ve determined that he’s at the age where he’s no longer a child, but not quite an adult (I have no idea what the Dwemer call that stage of life) and he’s got plenty to be angry about.

What we do know is that Kagrenac got him in trouble with his father over something he didn’t do and that he was temporarily “excoriated” to Thedas over it, just before the Dwemer Disappearance. While he’s a “super-prodigy” by Dwemer terms, he was more interested in the combat/mystical arts of Akaviir and this already strained his relationship with his father.

When we told him about the disappearance, this was his reaction: “Everyone… gone…?! My mom… my dad… my girlfriend (I think that’s what he meant)… my teachers… everyone… gone…?! All right!!!”

Sincerely,
Inquisitor Maxwell Trevelyan

#

So, what do you think?

analog root
#

Been wanting to do a conjuration playthrough but I'm not sure to do it in Skyrim or Oblivion, which do you all think offers the better experience?

feral viper
#

Oblivion in most cases for magic.

Skyrim's magic is a better system, but so little is actually done with it that it feels lackluster in every way.

#

Oblivion on the other hand is so poorly slapped together, anything in it feels like over the top power fantasy.

astral hollow
#

Ray the 4th, Oblivion has D&D aspects to it you might enjoy.

feral viper
#

I think Oblivion is the inferior game on basically every level.

But if you're playing Conjuration, it DOES have more summoning spells to play with. Even if I think it's magic system is slop.

junior kettle
#

Skyrim has the better magic mods though because there's more you can do with scripting than oblivion. For instance Enai's spell mods are great

feral viper
#

Indeed. But I generally discount times for recommendations

#

Because not everyone is on PC

junior kettle
#

Skyrim has console modding

feral viper
#

Does it? I though only on Xbox.

Since Sony is... Well.. Sony

dim reef
#

I don't like Oblivion's magic whatsoever so I'll say Skyrim. Even without mods it's magic feels way better to use than Oblivion's

#

Especially with some of the AE spells like undying ghost, conjuration can be really fun

#

Oblivion does technically have more spells but none of them ever felt fun to me

livid ingot
#

Oblivion's magic is better than Skyrim's. Skyrim has to be the most bare-bones and shallow yet. All done to the benefit of putting the Thu'um front and center - allegedly.
The equipping of spells like weapons is pretty clunky and if it was meant to balance spells it's bypassed by the game's other mechanics.

#

Meanwhile we lost a lot of spell functionality on top of it all.

#

Oblivion's deleterious effects of wearing armor for spellcasting tests the player's commitment to pouring points into being a spellcaster. And many more spell effects are still available - despite the loss of many since Daggerfall.

#

Not to mention the creative uses of the spellcrafting system

pulsar root
#

Equipping Magic in Skyrim is annoying, it may look better but thats one of the positives of it.

livid ingot
#

It does look better for sure

#

Pre-release speculation had high hopes for it too. The speculation that players could actively combine spells to various effects made a lot of people - myself included - quite excited.

#

None of that turned out to be in the cards for Skyrim. But if Bethesda develops this system further for the next game it might be redeemable

dim reef
#

I'll take being able to equip both a spell and a one handed weapon at the same time personally if I'm being honest. I hated the separate button for spells before

#

It's like a better version of MW's spell holding system

pulsar root
#

That just means anybody trying to use magic while using a two hander unable to do that unless they switch between weapons and Magic. Thats tedious and not fun at all.

dim reef
#

I disagree. I don't see it being any different from using the singular spell button in Oblivion. It just takes one extra button

#

Tho i was more referring to one handed weapons. Two handed weapons and magic were always a bit clunky

eager remnant
#

Skyrim's magic mechanics are superior to Oblivion in every way. But, considering conjuration, base game Oblivion offers more summons than base game Skyrim, which may give it a slight edfe for a conjuration playthrough, (this is rectified with the Anniversary Edition though).

dim reef
#

Yeah. AE adds a lot of cool conjure spells

#

I really like that giant skeleton thing from ESO

pulsar root
dim reef
#

No. Just map it to a quick select key and press it.

#

1 for weapon. 2 for magic.
Simple as

pulsar root
#

Yeah like one spell and you will run out of those quick select options

dim reef
#

Not really. There's like 7 slots iirc

#

You can fit a bunch of spells in there

#

I don't think I've ever needed more than 5 spells at a time

#

You only need one extra button press compared to Oblivion cos' pressing the magic key just casts the spell directly while in Skyrim you gotta press the fire key separately

#

I don't find it any more or less intuitive when it comes to two handed weapons

#

You can also key dual spells into quick select too

pulsar root
#

That would be fine if there weren't more powerful versions of spells and they just scaled it(I forgot the rankings)

dim reef
#

Yeah but again. Why would you be using an inferior version of the better spell at the same time?

#

They're clearly meant to be used at different stages based on what your current level is

#

Like if you keep using novice level spells upto level 30 or something that's kinda on you

livid ingot
#

I think all it takes to see the superiority of Oblivion's system was the reception to the Oblivion Remaster. You had lots of people crafting clever spells and sharing videos of them jumping across Cyrodiil or killing rooms full of enemies

pulsar root
#

Yeah I know. And sometimes I don't have(Or can't use) above novice spell level but thats a different typic(Having Novice, etc etc levels of spells). I don't particularly care eithe way about that but thats just me.

Point being its still kinda clucky switching between weapon and then spell.

dim reef
#

Spell crafting is admittedly something i miss

#

But to say Skyrim doesn't have a lot of videos with people goofing around with spells isn't accurate

livid ingot
#

The atmosphere was very much TES magic used to be like this?

dim reef
#

Also how many people are talking about Oblivion's magic now huhVaultBoySunglasses

dim reef
pulsar root
#

They don't I've heard many times Skyrim needed more spell variety then the "Fire, Ice,Lightning bolt" ones that are basic. Which I'm not against. The spellcrafting I am also indifferent, unless its doing weird stuff like a FrostFirebolt spell. I'm sure there's other combinations but I'd prefer they just exist then you making it yourself.

Just me though.

feral viper
#

Spellcrafting was one of those things that was a great idea in concept, but not well executed.

tardy tiger
#

TES magic has always been very basic ingame unfortunately.

The one downside to not having classes to force people to make class abilities different to each other.

dim reef
#

Nah that'd be even worse. I hate class restrictions

#

Open systems offer much more creativity in mixing and matching different abilities

#

The issue with TES isn't the core system. It's the actual spells themselves. They need to be more creative

tardy tiger
#

Oh I was talking about how classes at least made people try and make their abilities different. It's just TES didn't do anything with its freedom. Closest we got we Skyrim adding sun magic with Dawnguard otherwise the magic in TES3 and 4 are 100% the same due to how much TES really didn't do much.

dim reef
#

Ah yeah. That's really the problem. They gotta make more actually unique and creative spells

#

Damn it.
Anyway. Most of what we have is essentially variations of "do 20 damage for 3 seconds"

#

Even Mass Effect has so many unique biotic effects despite having overall less amount of total abilities

#

Speaking of Mass Effect we need primers and detonations

pulsar root
#

I like the basic spells they shouldn't be removed, nor should they be the only available ones either.

dim reef
#

Imagine applying Frostbite on someone then exploding them with fire.

feral viper
livid ingot
#

One of my favorite magicka additions in Skyrim were the runes

#

Magical traps are a great idea

#

But again, really limited in implementation

#

We only got interesting ones in Dragonborn

dim reef
#

They are pretty much just reskinned mines from Fallout. Funny how both franchises keep taking stuff from each other

#

Maybe next game we'll get makeshift turrets

pulsar root
#

A magical trap on a treasure chest at the end of a "seemingly" easy dungeon where it summons a bunch of enemies) That would be....amusing.

analog root
#

thank you all for the input. I think I'll go with Skyrim simply because i have AE and I'm also sporting a mod collection which does feature a spell expansion mod. Now im up against deciding going full magic or using some sort of weapon. I'm leaning bow and unarmed(the collection has a unarmed skill tree and I'm feeling a cat playthrough) but im wondering if others have used conjuration and if they feature a weapon along with it(conjured or not)

livid ingot
#

Imagine stealing from a manor that not only locks and guards but magical security like runes that paralyze you in place, enchanted doors that sound alarms if you fail to pick them or use a key, or chests that run away from intruders

#

Every thief would have to stock up in scrolls or enchanted items that could get them past magical obstacles

#

If they didn't use magic themselves

dim reef
#

can we talk about TES VI team here

stark flower
dim reef
stark flower
left mulch
#

Bit of a random question, I've been lurking on here for a while but what is the general vibe around fanfictions and the like set in the Elder Scrolls universe? Elsewhere it seems that TES fandom in general are... derisive or the like towards anyone who writes, rather than draws or creates artwork. It feels really damn wierd.

feral viper
#

Depends where you're at, and what community you're posting in.

If you're uncertain, ask what the group's opinion of C0DA is.

If it's hated, they won't like fanfiction.

If it's beloved, they'll accept fanfiction.

dim reef
#

I like good fanfictions. There's plenty of well written lore friendly mods

#

However. There's also plenty of bad ones. Recently i played "There is No Umbra" and it made me seriously consider punching my laptop

#

Ofcourse I'd never actually do that but that's how awful i felt about that mod

left mulch
# feral viper Depends where you're at, and what community you're posting in. If you're uncer...

Yeah, across the board for most places (facebook groups, subreddits, forums etc) there are either disdain or outright derision which is... wierd to me.

My question was related to here. I've been trying to get a gauge of it on this server before I put my stuff up in the fanart thread (dunno where else to put it) lol.

It definitely feels like the fanbase in general though doesn't like reading novels though haha

left mulch
junior kettle
#

The best writing in the series is found in Tamriel Rebuilt and Project Cyrodiil

#

Morrowind modding community is constantly outperforming Bethesda in writing quality

dim reef
#

Same with any other modding community really. Fallout London for example was painfully mid but it doesn't ruin other good mods

junior kettle
#

Fallout London is ok but it's still miles better than Bethesda fallout

dim reef
#

Hell no. It's only saving grace is other worse mods exist

left mulch
#

I'm not talking about mods though. I've been writing TES fanfics for years and it's been an never ending struggle trying to find anywhere and anyone to share them with lol

junior kettle
#

Bethesda needs to work on making the writing for their games better and more fun honestly

dim reef
#

I don't think I've ever seen a mod with such painfully uninspired and mediocre writing. Atleast bad mods you can laugh at

#

What i find even more hilarious is some claiming it's up to Bethesda's standards like please

left mulch
#

It doesn't help that 90% of fanfics are of entirely questionable content and when you are like me and don't write that stuff you get hidden under the avalanche lol

dim reef
#

But back to the topic yes. I think people do appreciate good fanfics even in this fandom

left mulch
dim reef
#

I mean Bethesda even hired a bunch of modders that were really good to be quest designers in Starfield

#

They definitely appreciate well made fan content

left mulch
dim reef
#

Keep trying. You will. Nothing is too far if you make up your mind

left mulch
#

8 years. Over a million words, and personally narrating my skyrim series onto youtube. Something might stick one day hahaha

dim reef
#

Yeah. Don't give up. Everyone gets their break some day. I still remember the first time one of my YT videos hit 1k views for the first time

left mulch
#

Maybe lol.

TESVI will come out before my stuff gets anywhere. It's almost been the same amount of time lol

junior kettle
#

Bethesda also brought in the skyblivion modders to hear their thoughts on various things that can improve modding like how there's no official tutorials anymore

feral viper
#

You can have an amazingly written story, but if your storytelling is bad, it's still going to seem like garbage.

#

A good example of this was, in fact, Skyrim.

All the stories in it were good. But they were told terribly, using rushed plot points, exposition dumps, and snap character development.

This resulted in them feeling like bad stories, even though they were technically good.

#

In the flip side, Oblivion's stories ARE bad. But because they're given room to breathe, well paced, and have some decent character development (well, really only Martin) they FEEL way better than they actually are.

livid ingot
#

I'm not quite sure I understand the distinction you're making between writing and storytelling.
In a novel it makes sense. Your prose is competent - you can compose a sentence, master grammar, paint a picture and convey ideas. While storytelling is an understanding of story structure and the ability to create and develop compelling conflicts, settings, and characters.
I don't know what writing and storytelling are supposed to be in this scenario. Is writing gameplay? I don't think you're criticizing Oblivion for its sentence composition.

dim reef
#

Pacing first and foremost

#

In Morrowind for example the corprus disease which is the main threat there is given a good amount of build up before you contract and cure it.

In Skyrim you kill a dragon in the literal 3rd main quest

#

In Oblivion you literally close a Oblivion gate in the 2nd main quest

#

Quest design is the main issue here. The core writing is good but the way it's told through a chain of quests is terrible

#

Tho i will give that Oblivion's general side quests are more varied and interesting than Skyrim. But they still suffer from being completely disconnected from the overarching plot

pulsar root
#

I... disagree. I never felt the pacing of the main story was bad, just its length was not long enough which seems consisent in bethesda game(I said similar to FO4 but different franchise)

feral viper
#

A good story is one that is consistent, logically thought out, fits the necessary structure, and is (at least mostly) devoid of major internal inconsistencies and problems.

But if the prose is bad, or the pacing is bad, or you leave out perspectives that would naturally fill in blanks... If you TELL the story poorly, it doesn't matter how good the story it's self is.

#

A prime example of this is Romeo and Juliet.

Fantastic story. But the telling's of it over the years have good and bad.

Mostly bad, since the Victorian Puritanism basically rewrote the moral of the story...

dim reef
#

Ok. Hang on Romeo and Juliet is not a good story. It's terrible

livid ingot
feral viper
livid ingot
#

I agree Skyrim does much better worldbuilding than Oblivion

feral viper
dim reef
feral viper
#

Do you also think Citizen Kane is bad?

dim reef
#

Hm. I don't think it's core story is as phenomenal as people claim but it's cinematography is genuinely fantastic for it's time

feral viper
#

Fair assessment.

#

I won't say Romeo and Juliet is Shakespeare's best. But it IS a good story, when viewed as intended.

Not as a love story, but rather as a condemnation of young love, with Romeo as the villian.

#

Which the play does call out multiple times. Almost every scene with Romeo and his friends is basically his friends being like 'Dude, wtf? Stop thinking with your dongle and don't be a tool'

#

But point being, you can have a good story, and tell it poorly.

And you can have a bad story, and tell it well.

The telling is separate from the story it's self, though it does influence how people will perceive the story.

#

Look at the number of people who think Harry Potter is a good story

pulsar root
#

It was nice story.....at teenage years but thats about it for me.

livid ingot
#

It sounds more like you're the editor here explaining to the author that they have good ideas but their book still needs a lot of work.
I wouldn't call that a good story written poorly. I'd say, you know - the setting is intriguing or this character is memorable - but the book is a mess, it's disorganized and confusing, there are a lot of seemingly pointless scenes, the plot doesn't get moving until halfway through.
In other words: you've got good ideas but you need to work on the implementation.

#

Can there be a good painting painted poorly? Well no. You can have a great subject or concept but if your painting is terrible then you've got yourself a terrible painting

livid ingot
#

I might say... Skyrim has a unique setting with a compelling conflict and characters. It held a lot of promise. But it stumbled on the implementation with bad writing. Then on the other hand Oblivion was ill-conceived from the start and no amount of good writing could have saved it (I disagree but that's neither here nor there).

#

The writing v storytelling bifurcation is just unnecessary IMO

junior kettle
#

The issue with Oblivion is it's after Morrowind that has a rich compelling world with political intrigue that feels realistic whereas Oblivion has kinda nothing, the questlines don't even have much commentary to them, they're just there

#

and that's really dull

pulsar root
#

I don't view ES games that badly. Thats a vague statement but ive said it enough times and my mind isn't really changed.

junior kettle
#

there's nothing to actually talk about

#

Like compare that to Morrowind, New Vegas or even Starfield. There's themes and commentary in those games to discuss and have different opinions on, for Oblivion it's just a one direct road. The mages guild is the most that you can do with Traven's policies causing the guild to splinter but that just leads into "but also he was right and necromancers are evil bad people who should die"

pulsar root
#

One example and not every game needs political commentary.

junior kettle
#

Yea the games that don't tend to be forgotten about lmao

pulsar root
#

Oblivion is not forgotten about. lmao

junior kettle
#

and it's not one example, there's no commentary with Fighter's Guild, DB is written like a cartoon and thieves guild is just robin hood and his merry band of thieves that can do no wrong. In Morrowind the guild was having an active hand in smuggling including skooma and moon sugar for instance

#

Blackwood is always evil bad men, thieves guild there's really no antagonist or theme, dark brotherhood is the antagonist is just an insane man that's really not explored well. People mostly remember Oblivion because it does have good quest design but it's writing is nothing. Even the main story is just a generic stop a devil-looking god from taking over, no exploration of the Empire's various issues, no look into the political instability the death of the head of a continent wide empire would cause, the best written part of the main quest is when Mankar Camoran is going off on Daedric lore in Paradise

#

When I say forgotten about I mean people do not really talk about it's writing unless it's "hey remember this part that was cool" unlike when you see New Vegas, Fallout 4, Starfield or Morrowind people are discussing the factions, the themes, if a faction is right or wrong, the commentary. That's what I mean when I say yea it's forgotten about. Even the Oblivion quests people hype up end up being like 5 minutes long like whodunit

#

For instance I've seen more discussion of the culture, politics and commentary on Hlaalu than I've seen of anything from Oblivion

feral viper
#

Well, Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood gets a lot of mentions.

For some god forsaken readon

junior kettle
#

It's the only one with any personality to it

#

Even if the personality is bad people remember it because everything else is so boringly generic that it stands out

#

Which again, Mankar Camoran being the best part of the main story because the personality of the blades is so boring when you remove the armor and katanas.

#

Like they botched the one spy mission for the blades, Martin says he has an interesting history before being a priest but it's not actually developed or explored, it's just a single line of dialogue to justify how he can figure out the daedric incantation and he does nothing most of the story.

#

Even infiltrating the mythic dawn base is just nothing to it compared to say learning all of the Nerevarine prophecies just to find out the modern one is corrupted to match the xenophobic attitude of modern morrowind and the ashlanders hatred of the Tribunal that is not mentioned at all in the actual original prophecy

feral viper
pulsar root
#

This feels like nostalgia for Morrowind, and nostalgia does only so much for me.

junior kettle
#

It's not lol it's pointing out a valid issue with Oblivion. The idea Oblivion had good writing on the other hand is very much nostalgia.

#

Even Bethesda realized this which is why Skyrim's factions had more personality to them

pulsar root
#

I disagree, its not nostalgia. Skyrim factions have only slightly more personalityor not that much. Don't get me started on the companions and how they handle that one. The Dark Brotherhood IMO was far better in Oblivion then Skyrim. Still enjoyed it but there's a reason WeKnow keeps getting brought up

junior kettle
#

Well let's see in Skyrim the Thieves Guild acts like a proper criminal organization that engages in theft, protection rackets, fraud, smuggling and embezzlement. In Oblivion you can accurately just say the thieves guild is a robin hood knockoff. In Skyrim the companions were mercenaries with an actually interesting take on embracing being a werewolf has positive aspects to it and they accepted jobs that were murky at times, in Oblivion we get mercenaries who can do no wrong but their competition is evil bad men who use drugs. In Oblivion the Mages Guild was Traven banned necromancy because of his own bias which again, that has potential, but whoops necromancers are evil bad people who need to die. In Skyrim the college of winterhold is a institution with a storied history that isn't trusted by a lot of skyrim and is willing to teach things that the guild looked down on because they have a belief that magic isn't inherently evil. In Oblivion the dark brotherhood is a cartoon, in Skyrim you at least get a plotline about killing the emperor and a lot of the details are pinning the blame on the stormcloaks with the idea that the empire needs new leadership for a change we have no clue will entail

#

and again, I'm mentioning other games like New Vegas which people still discuss the themes, factions and quests around. Starfield which people discuss the themes, factions and quest. Fallout 4 which people still discuss the themes, factions and well ok not quests on that one.

#

Skyrim factions have more personality in the first few minutes than Oblivion's in the entire questline

#

Oblivion focused too hard on presenting a generic fantasy take on the factions instead of well, actually making fleshed out and well thought out factions. Again, this isn't nostalgia talking lol

gloomy kraken
#

I miss the time when skyrim came out and people hated on it, bring that back thanks

junior kettle
#

And saying "This is nostalgia talking" is such a bad way to dismiss what someone says in the first place because nah, I'm not misremembering Morrowind with nostalgia when I say it was good that the fighter's guild had the issue of it's leadership besides two stewards being in the pocket of the camonna tong or how it was interesting that the order of ways you do the fighter's guild can mean you just lock yourself out of the thieves guild and vice versa

#

The Fighter's Guild and Thieves guild questlines being finished in three ways is actually cool and interesting

pulsar root
junior kettle
#

and yet there's more written about the civil war and more personality to it than any of the guilds in Oblivion

#

Back when the old Bethesda forums were up people were debating the civil war for literal years

#

Threads would hit the page limit within a day of being made. There was discussion and exchanging information by using how NPCs viewed the sides, notes and books and the after-effects in dialogue of either side winning

pulsar root
#

Thats not really a point in its favor other then gamers like to debate things even things that are flat out true and people won't look at the evidence.

junior kettle
#

Yes it is lol because people talking about them means people remember them, they aren't forgotten whereas Oblivion there's nothing there besides "yea, that part was cool"

#

Like yea it was cool to steal an elder scroll but there's no ramifications or theme to explore other than you get a mask that broke the game's balance

#

Or fighter's guild where there's no corruption or issue to be found anywhere in the guild itself and the competition boils down to "they're evil bad drug using thugs"

#

Which again, Bethesda realized. Look at Starfield's factions, you have intrigue, you have commentary, you have NPCs that reveal different information about the whole of the setting, you have connecting factors to the theme of the game

pulsar root
#

People remember Oblivion, but not all ES games need some big debate between two factions or even two opposing sides.

And yes sometimes other groups are evil, it doesn't always need to be overly complicated. Both are valid but one isn't superior over the other. Fighters guild is superior over the Companions simply because they didn't shoehorn you into making you have to finish it all but you need to be a werewolf or just be stuck.

junior kettle
#

People remember Oblivion in the most dull way to remember media

#

as such it is pretty much forgotten

gloomy kraken
#

who is people

#

this all seems like opinion talks, I dislike this I dislike that so everyone must have that

junior kettle
#

Fighter's guild is boring compared to the companions because there's nothing there to them, blackwood has more personality than the fighter's guild

#

Even the silver hand which also Bethesda messed up the exploration of was still more interesting because it's a werewolf hunting group that was engaging in witch hunt behavior

gloomy kraken
#

while I agree that the fighters guild is boring af, in any elder scrolls game, I atleast remember getting super depressed while doing the questline while I don't remember anything about the skyrims companion questline other than being in a cave with werewolfs under the city

#

or going to mansion across the water in riften for the thieves guild

junior kettle
#

I'm not saying the execution was perfect but the fact it has more personality than a majority of Oblivion's writing is important.

#

And the fact everything in Oblivion doesn't really feel connected also kinda sucks.

gloomy kraken
#

I personally don't experience that

junior kettle
#

Skyrim also has the issue but not to the level of Oblivion

gloomy kraken
#

I have almost 8x more hours in skyrim that oblivion and I legit couldn't tell you what the companions stand for or their questline is about

#

or what the thieves guild questline is about, they are so forgettable (To me)

junior kettle
#

Fighter's guild in Oblivion didn't stand for anything, they just existed to be a way to fight a bad guy

gloomy kraken
junior kettle
#

I bring my point of this is a problem all the guilds in Oblivion have

#

Except thieves guild because they couldn't even bother making a big bad for robin hood to fight

#

They couldn't even bother to make the legion captain trying to take out robin hood to actually be corrupt or oppressive

#

And I bring the point of this makes the guild feel disconnected with how it's portrayed in every other game. In Daggerfall, Morrowind, ESO and Skyrim it's treated as an actual crime organization engaged in both larceny and other crimes.

#

The only thing the guild didn't have it's hand in was the slave trade

pulsar root
junior kettle
#

The best part of Oblivion's fighter's guild is the painting that one dunmer made

feral viper
#

At the same time, that simply family operation is somehow losing business to a company that ACTIVELY KILLS THEIR CLIENTS in drug fueled benders.

junior kettle
#

Yea the entire writing for blackwood makes literally no sense other then oooooo they bad guys ooooo

#

Like the guild being small in Morrowind makes sense because it's a barely colonized territory that just opened up for foreigners after being a temple reserve for eons. In Oblivion they should be a proper mercenary army because the whole point of the guild is to be a replacement for personal retinues that landed nobles had. It again also hurts because we're in a period where there should be wide-scale chaos when literally the entire royal line that rules the entire continent were thoroughly assassinated to the point there is literally no more successors

#

That's not just the emperor and his sons, that's entire heads of kingdoms throughout tamriel with how many royal lines the septims married into

feral viper
#

Oblivion is... Yeah, just terribly thought out.

junior kettle
#

There should be FG guards all over the place

#

For instance Solitude's royal line was extremely connected with the Septims

#

and the Septims stopped being directly connected to Tiber early on in the third empire when the last of Tiber's direct descendants was assassinated by the dark brotherhood

feral viper
#

And unfortunately it's had carryover beyond Oblivion. The Battle of the Red Ring makes nonsense, unless Oblivion was to-scale.

tardy tiger
#

The Fighters Guild are mercenaries. They really should be around the world more.

pulsar root
tardy tiger
#

Even that's odd tbh. As they could be around they just don't use that many NPC factions.

feral viper
#

The Companions would most likely act THROUGH the Fighters Guild..

#

But Bethesda forgot what a Guild was

pulsar root
#

I think that and the Mages guild should be staples and still be around but obviously each new game should have something new about it. Though Skyrim's College of Winterhold was interesting. Though as always spectacle was low.

junior kettle
#

Nah mages guild collapsing was actually interesting

feral viper
#

Given that it wasn't even functioning as a guild, or doing what it was supposed to...

If was kinda necessary to drag TES into Todd's prefered 'no magic' paradigm.

junior kettle
#

There shouldn't be "staples" there should be things that are unique and interesting. I'd be fine if the fighter's guild didn't survive because they were so intertwined with the empire that it caused them to slowly collapse too or do what Morrowind did and have multiple groups doing the same thing but different stories

#

Like the Imperial Cult and Tribunal Temple both being religion focused and both doing charity work

#

Having a fighter's guild and a local mercenary group would be interesting to see, especially if we get that good they're competiting but both joinable

#

Like sysdef and crimson fleet being two groups but their storylines are attached

feral viper
#

Staples in the form of major independent institutions that have existed for the better part of 2000 years is fine.

junior kettle
#

For instance that's what Skyrim Home of the Nords mod for Morrowind is doing, the fighter's guild is in skyrim but the companions are also going to be implemented

#

The issue is we need more than just "Here is the old back again, nothing changed, nothing new" now having a old institution that is losing business because they're competiting with a new or a local group more connected with the people would be good. Blackwood would've been good if the writing wasn't really bad

#

For instance we already know a mercenary group exists in Hammerfell with the Alik'r

#

and again the fighter's guild having corruption as an issue would also work because they're a mercenary army whose purpose is to be a replacement for personal armies. Having that still be the case would mean that they'd have influence, meaning the angle of they're not fully good works. It would've been interesting and realistic if they used that to muscle out competition

#

also destroys the idea of mercenaries are good people, they're not

pulsar root
#

I will never be ok with mages guild and fighters guild being gone. Not even interesting.

junior kettle
#

Nah it is

#

Mages Guild having the issue of promoting unqualified people and being more focused on politics than actually teaching, researching and training magic skills is realistic and makes sense. It also adds in depth. That was a major point in Morrowind where the guild should've been focused on research and teaching the most. You have a ton of unexplored dwemer ruins finally opened, you have the Sixth House crisis being magically charged and you of course had the local competition of House Telvanni who before the armistice and the mages guild monopoly were often employed as teachers by other house nobles

#

And who does the guild decide to put in this position? A man who wanted to dig a tunnel under the inner sea

#

The dude had an advisor that handed him a fake note with Ocato's name misspelled that was a Telvanni spy

pulsar root
#

Nope still not ok with there being no Fighter/Mages guild. I think they add character to ES then just being gone. Existing is far better then not

junior kettle
#

Nah it adds more depth to the setting and makes the setting feel like it's actually progressing in the timeline instead of the date moving but everything is still stagnant with all the groups still being the same

#

They add more character being stories of failure

#

Like the fourth era is cool because the empire is weakened to the point provinces are rebelling and seceding, it adds new things to the setting, if everything is just the same it loses the sense of a living world that never advances and becomes boring. Properties like that start losing audiences, it stops building interest, it just becomes a "things happen but nothing changes"

#

Like the Empire dying and being a shell of it's former self has been an element since Daggerfall because it never actually recovered from the events of Arena. Even if the septims didn't all die it still would've collapsed because so much damage was done, when that collapse happens of course old institutions that depended on the old hierarchy would follow suit

#

The Mages Guild for instance was stated to have a high position in the empire's politics it had a monopoly on all magic based teaching, training and selling with religions like the imperial cult and the tribunal being the exception. Of course it wouldn't have survived when the empire collapsed.

#

Staples do more damage to a property because they don't build something new, that's the issue here. You need new stories, new elements, etc etc to keep interest, to flesh out the world. History advances, institutions fall and rise, new things are found and developed, that's how TES should be.

pulsar root
#

Staples do not do damage... like wut...

junior kettle
#

They most certainly do

#

If you keep using something familiar it becomes dull, generic, boring, much like a lot of Oblivion's factions. It also doesn't make much sense why these groups wouldn't have competition or wouldn't be able to push into a region due to an already established power. The fourth era would be harsh for institutions so entrenched in the old administration, especially in places where that administration was hated.

#

For instance Hlaalu losing it's great house status

#

In fact a western faction, the thieves guild, literally had that issue establishing itself in Morrowind because the camonna tong was so entrenched into the area, this would also hurt a mercenary company because another would have more connections with local lords and people.

#

Which is actually the lore behind the Alik'r in skyrim, they're mercenaries sponsored by the noble houses. Which makes sense given how anti-Empire Hammerfell would currently be which would hurt an organization that's entrenched in cyrodiilic ties like the fighter's guild, they'd have the same issue in Morrowind, Dominion, the kingdoms of Elsewyr and Black Marsh. This would severely hurt their capacity to function as they're cut off from most of the continent.

#

All of this adds way more flavor and interest to the setting than "and here's the fighter's guild" you have the setting reacting to politics, current events, opinions towards cyrodiil, this builds a breathing living world that feels realistic

feral viper
#

I think staples CAN do damage, when they become cliches..

#

Like, if I see Tatooine again in Star Wars, Imma quit that franchise entirely.

#

For a nowhere backwater, the entire date of the sodding galaxy seems to circle that one dump of a planet.

tardy tiger
livid ingot
dim reef
junior kettle
junior kettle
#

Modern Star Wars couldn't even make Boba Fett interesting and fun

#

Even my dad who grew up on star wars in the 80s has stopped watching anything star wars related

dim reef
#

Actually the rebels vs empire thing is more about fan demand. For example Bioware tried doing the whole alliance storyline with Eternal Throne expansions in SWTOR which worked for a while then everyone started being annoyed and demanded another imp vs pub storyline.

junior kettle
#

The fans should never be listened to 100%

#

One minute they say they want that, the next they start saying the thing they wanted sucked

feral viper
#

Even in the original, he looked goofy. He had a bucket for a helmet, and armour that looked like a painted cardboard box.

tardy tiger
#

People saw a blank slate in nice looking equipment and ran with it.

All you knew was that he was a mercenary that was known for disintegrating people from memory.

pulsar root
#

Can't speak to that cause I never played that MMO too extensively but the base experience story was 👌🏻

feral viper
night violet
#

*Sees a post about Xbox tweet saying good year for games with the number 6

Checks context and finds its in regards to GTA Vi and Forza VI

Sinks head back down into the pit of endless despair that is waiting for some tidbit of TES VI news*

feral viper
wide garnet
feral viper
#

I mean, GOOD news is also good news.

But no new is better than bad news. Which makes it good news.

livid ingot
#

If it's any consolation...

#

For a good number of years now 2027 has been my reasonable prediction

#

And that's now only next year!

pulsar root
#

Yeah that became my prediction after Todd's words about GTA(In relation to ES6)

livid ingot
#

I now think it's the more optimistic guess, but I still think it's a likely scenario.

#

Catch me on a more pessimistic day and I'll say 2028

noble verge
#

And I'm an outlier in that I loved the whole Zakuul vs Alliance Story arc in SWTOR even if was just Avatar the Last Airbender In Space

junior kettle
#

There's also when a staple just loses all personality it just becomes a name

#

Which the issue with Oblivion's MG and FG

noble verge
#

What I'd love to see in a game would be a Rimmen Fighters Guild clinging to its Akaviri roots.

dim reef
feral viper
#

That'd be fine if the Akaviri weren't so incredibly lame. They're not like, Bosmer bad, but they're close.

#

But I'm actually going to try to complain less about the setting this year. I think at this point my negativity towards it has become thoroughly toxic, and unproductive.

I don't think it can reasonably be fixed, and I don't think Bethesda WANTS to fix it in the first place.

#

So instead, I'm going to personally focus hard on mechanics and gameplay systems, the things that still have value.

junior kettle
#

I want political group factions, religious factions and more focus on trade groups and local cultures

#

Asking for a lot with that I know.

pulsar sable
#

Anyone know what the Og oblivion feel more magical than the remake? Well at least in my opinion but like the remake has better graphics and gameplay but Og just feels more whimsical

burnt harness
#

I think it’s partly due to the shaders giving everything a very vibrant, dreamlike vibe.

split brook
dim reef
hearty otter
feral viper
#

It's not so much a style over substance problem, it's just a colour saturation issue.

feral viper
#

Conceptually, I break Questlines down into categories which emphasise their depth and complexity.

Main: The big, mythic narrative focused around the place and cultures.

Major: significant narratives focused around major organizations or bodies.

Minor: smaller, often regional narratives that are largely self contained.

Jobs: one-shot activities that have little to no impact outside their own continuity.

#

The Main Questline should always be a big, flashy, prophetic mythic story that serves to highlight the wider territories history, mythology and culture.

More Morrowind or Skyrim, less Oblivion.

#

Major Questlines are more grounded in the social, political or economic climate of the setting. They are Guilds, the local political scene, the ongoing tension between the Empire and Dominion, etc.

#

Minor Questlines are more regionally focused, keeping to a single city and its environs rather than sending you all over the place. More Potema or Foresworn Conspiracy.

Still multi-stage, but nowhere near as involved as a Major Questlines.

#

And Jobs are basically the random single-task quests you find in the wild, rarely more than 1 or 2 stages, and also including radiantly generated quests.

dim reef
#

It also doesn't look bleak and dirty all the time. That only happens during overcast weathers. Other times it's all bright and happy

junior kettle
#

Elder scrolls shouldn't be lotr or try to replicate a show. It should be a video game.

dim reef
#

Well sadly that's what Oblivion was trying to do

junior kettle
#

Yea and it sucked lol

dim reef
#

Ik. I'm just saying

#

Skyrim and ESO course corrected hard

#

Don't think they'll ever attempt that lol

pulsar root
#

Colors is are cool.

feral viper
#

Admittedly, I've only seen other people play the remaster. So my experience is limited and I haven't been able to test all conditions.

Because I'm not spending money on a remaster for a game I already have, let alone for one I hate.

hearty otter
#

That said - Daggerfall was an actual moment of trying to make a cake and having another at the same time

dim reef
#

Agree on Morrowind. Disagree on Oblivion. Oblivion was when TES was at it's most generic

pulsar root
#

Cyrodil still looks more pleasing then Skyrim(The fidelity is what holds it back)

dim reef
#

Nah disagree. I like Cyrodiil but Skyrim looks way better

#

The only town I'd say looks bad in Skrim is Morthal

hearty otter
# dim reef Agree on Morrowind. Disagree on Oblivion. Oblivion was when TES was at it's most...

Well, Sheogorath's DLC story & the Thief Guild storyline was something I enjoyed from Oblivion. I think the kookiness of the art direction & the springiness of the mechanics contributed to a point of difference for Oblivion. I doubt you could confuse Oblivion with other fantasy games. The only game that could come close to be confused with Oblivion would be Fable but the tone Fable takes eventually differentiates it from Oblivion enough that both games are completely separate in my mind

dim reef
# hearty otter Well, Sheogorath's DLC story & the Thief Guild storyline was something I enjoyed...

Shivering Isles was a good dlc and had a unique artstyle but i can't praise the base game for it. Same reason i don't bash base Morrowind even if i hate the Bloodmoon dlc.
The thieves guild questline was admittedly better than some of the other guild questlines, especially Mages guild but i still didn't find it that much better myself.
As far as artstyle goes. Oblivion is as generic as it gets. Armor designs, weapons, outfits, town architecture, dungeons. It's very bog standard European medieval fantasy.
The one area Oblivion does shine however is It's creature designs. They're pretty creative

#

That and the awkward character models ig but that was unintentional idk if i should praise them for it or criticize

pulsar root
#

Generic is an overused term.

dim reef
#

It's what Bethesda themselves use tbf

#

It's not necessarily a bad term. Just used to describe what is the norm

hearty otter
dim reef
#

Does it? I never felt it's bizarre whatsoever and that's one of my main irks with it.
There's a daedric invasion going on and no one cares

#

Atleast Morrowind and Skyrim have people constantly blabber about the war and dragons and thalmor and dagoth ur etc. Etc.

noble verge
#

My biggest gripe with Oblivion was the lack of civilization outside the big cities. There are no functioning mines, no Legion occupied forts, and few villages.

It says a lot that ESO has to make up new towns to fill up the space in Cyrodiil.

hearty otter
dim reef
#

And the reason it's even worse in Oblivion is because lorewise the invasion already got pretty bad.
In Morrowind we stop Dagoth before he can fully invade, same in Skyrim with Alduin.

In Oblivion we barely stop Dagon. Everything should be in shambles yet there's hardly any death or destruction

dim reef
pulsar root
# hearty otter The thing is that yes Oblivion is seemingly mundane but it's the small things th...

It may not be unique but I don't think that was the point except maybe the lore. Certainly the Imperial City being where its at is unique to me. Nothing I've seen before(At the time of Oblivion's release not now). I just personally like castles in my fantasy worlds.

Crimson Paladin's point about Legion occupied forts is a legit gripe. All of them are ruins and while I think there should be a few, its pretty much(Almost) all of them.

noble verge
#

I love the actual towns. Each one is unique, and almost every unique NPC in them had something to say about their hometown.

dim reef
#

And that with Skyrim they tried to be more like Morrowind

#

In a way Oblivion is like a true successor to Daggerfall while Skyrim to Morrowind

noble verge
#

I love how in Skyrim the Legion and Stormcloaks occupy the forts as you clear them out and as the civil war ramps up.

dim reef
#

Ye. They also take over opposite holds

#

Clocks take over Imp holds and Imps take Clocks

#

Tho it can be funny cos sometimes the new imp/clock guards spawn while you're around so they literally beat the existing guards to death in front of you

hearty otter
#

When you see other lunches, you can never confuse it with ploughman's lunch

#

Even if it's full of fruits and cheese & bread

#

Because it also contains pickles XD

hearty otter
dim reef
pulsar root
#

Its a game from 2007. 💀

hearty otter
#

There's mundane-mundane; mundane-extraordinary; extraordinary-mundane; extraordinary-extraordinary; then mysterious-mundane; mysterious-extraordinary...

dim reef
#

I do agree it's quests are more unique than Skyrim in concept but when you look deeper it all falls apart.
They're only cool from a surface level pov

#

Like sure getting kidnapped in a boat is cool but the bandits somehow missing your room when there's only two rooms in the boat is goofy as hell

#

Or the very idea of someone stealing a literal docked ship that isn't even supposed to move.
Like imagine someone trying to steal the USS constitution or something

#

It's cool. It's fun.
But that's it. There's nothing more to it

pulsar root
#

So is "WOOPS You were crossing the border you're a prisoner now" its dumb.

dim reef
#

Well so is you not even knowing why you're a prisoner in Oblivion

#

That's even worse. Atleast in Skyrim i know how i screwed up

#

In Oblivion you literally ask the Emperor "why am i jail" like lmao

hearty otter
dim reef
#

The Shivering Isles is indeed good

pulsar root
#

I know, don't get me started on the whole "You're a prisoner" schtick ES has. I find it dumb and limiting in roleplaying. That said "Goofyness"/Whimsy has its place so long its not unrelenting.

dim reef
#

I personally like it tbf. It's a meta thing.

hearty otter
#

I guess I have a fondness for such things lol

dim reef
#

You're the only prisoner in a literal sense who can do as you please while everyone else is stuck with the writer's whim

#

Vivec tried and is still trying to break the mold but ofcourse he can't. While Sotha Sil is just depressed knowing all of it

hearty otter
#

I grew upon Batman 1966, I enjoy John Waters movies and everything is literally processed through my eyes & brain rather than my ears - so I evaluate art slightly differently in that sense

dim reef
#

I also like the commitment to the bit cos if you open up the creation kit your character is tagged as "prisoner"

pulsar root
#

Dumb meta stuff(Unless its Deadpool) is silly to me. I don't need to know I have actual control over what I do.

hearty otter
#

Yeah - the prisoner meta is great

feral viper
dim reef
feral viper
#

As for the Prisoner thing... It had significance before Ithelia. Now it's basically Irrelevant, so eh.

dim reef
#

I think it's still cool. No other franchise does this

hearty otter
#

I enjoy the poetry

dim reef
#

It's something entirely unique to ES as far as fantasy worlds go

hearty otter
#

It's literally theatre and spookiness

feral viper
#

As a mechanical basis for 'starting a new life' it's pretty solid.

Especially as it allows you to drop the PC basically anywhere, for any reason.

#

Everyone's got prisons.

pulsar root
feral viper
#

No, you don't have to be.

dim reef
#

You don't have to. But it's a bit cooler if you do

#

Like that Daniel-Cooler Daniel meme

feral viper
#

Having a style is generally better than having no style..

hearty otter
#

In Daggerfall, you start from a cave not a prison

#

I'll check Arena to see if we start in a prison

#

Yes we start in prison in Arena

#

Interestingly -- Daggerfall is the only game where we don't start in a prison. And we are the Agent. I liked that about Daggerfall. Just being an agent in a vast land

feral viper
#

Well, you start captured by pirates after a ship wreck.

That the prison isn't an official legal one is secondary.

hearty otter
#

Then that's a technicality. The best kind of correct

feral viper
hearty otter
#

Great show

dim reef
#

Technically you are not an official prisoner in ESO either.
It's Molag Balls who captured you

pulsar root
#

...I read that wrong

dim reef
feral viper
#

Molag Bal is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived. So his prisons are the MOST official.

Source: Molag Bal (probably)

pulsar root
feral viper
hearty otter
astral hollow
#

Is there anyone here who likes Oblivion....Or is it generally not liked as much as the other Elder Scrolls?

pulsar root
#

I like it but there are aspects I dislike. I think its a good ES game but its from 2007 so its not perfect and its showing its age.

gloomy kraken
feral viper
#

Oblivion is beloved.

Myself and a few others are definitely in the minority

astral hollow
#

I like the eerie, mysterious aura from it, from the time of being in the sewers, to the first time venturing outside.

feral viper
#

I am not keen on it. It's not BAD, like New Vegas, but it's not good either.

It's like plain, unflavored rice

astral hollow
#

My favorite Elder Scrolls when I could still play it without it crashing too much, was Morrowind.

feral viper
#

I'd go so far as to say that Morrowind is the only TES with good worldbuilding, while Skyrim is the only one with good gameplay.

Though still in vast need of improvement

#

And even then, Morrowind only scratches the worldbuilding surface that I want.

Still, it's some of the best worldbuilding in gaming, so I can't let my personal standard take away from that.

astral hollow
#

Morrowind has a very mystical adventure aura to it. Starting out as an outlander in an alien looking province, and then later ending up being a hero again, to the Skaal who were once threatened by Hiricine's werewolves.

feral viper
#

Well, you were the hero the whole time. You just have to prove it.

eager remnant
tardy tiger
#

Depends on which part tbf.

Oblivion's got very weird problems with its world like how it's made the Imperials a mistake.

noble verge
inner dune
#

I dont mind Oblivion I just feel it is one of the weaker games in the series and was the first big step in the casualizing of the series for the masses to sell more games in the 2 series of theirs. but I still enjoy it and it has a bunch of things about it to enjoy. I just keep it modded to the 9s to be more inline with the worlds presented in daggerfall/morrowind. plus mods help clean things up and fix problems it has and can help enhance the world more. Once you clean it up a bit it actually presents a pretty cool world to get lost in and explore and with the right mods even live a bit of a normalish life in a city or hamlet. and adding with the advancement of Ai related to mods people will start to redo voices and other things in the game and use it to enhance things better as time goes on so there is that potential love it or hate it.

hearty otter
livid ingot
#

I like Oblivion quite a bit.

dim reef
#

I like Oblivion. It's fun and entertaining but i still think it's the weakest of all the newer mainline games.

#

I always look at it as the Fallout 2 of ES. A complete mess in terms of tone and writing but still fun.

inner dune
# hearty otter I do love it however I rank Daggerfall and Morrowind above it. Skyrim is below O...

Well keep in mind when you do play arena you can go outside of the city gates and there is an entire randomly generated wilderness in case you were unaware (some genuinely are and never actually explore it ever or see it). And there are some cool things to find and experience and see including a few spots to stop and graveyards and dungeons and even just various things as scenery or set pieces. I actually find traveling the wilds of arena outside the cities almost something itself as you cant just fast travel back to the city and than back to the spot you were again so once out you either survive or your travels are short. bonus if you do so at night during thunderstorms.

hearty otter
hearty otter
inner dune
# hearty otter Ooh good to know! Is there randomly generated enemies and loot in the wilderness...

oh indeed. Some of my favorite memories were traveling at night during thunderstorms and getting into fights with trolls and other enemies (was level 15 at this point). It has loot and treasure and locations to go into and explore. the graveyards usually have zombies and ghosts and other type and some dungeons are just a couple floors of fighting inside. I vaguely think it has tavern/inns but cant remember for sure but it does have villages you can go to but I remember most not being able to go into the buildings of. you will also run into random people in some locations and if I remember right ask them about dungeons and other things and they should send yuo in its direction.

also of note is your map will show the wilderness and mark things like dungeons with a red dot and other stuff with I think a green or something else dot (maybe red also?). been awhile since I loaded the game and hit the wilds up.

#

also dont forget to check cities for palaces and other locations and most buildings in cities can be gone into/ broke into/ busted door down entered (you can bust down almost any door tbh) and than gone through and depending on type of building it is might turn into a mini dungon with enemies in it and loot. there's tons of things in arena people dont realize exists. and if you do find a place with a palace or other spot talk to everyone as you can sometimes get quests and other things on offer that pay well or give good loot. and dont forget to ask about rumors as thats how one finds rumors to the artifacts in game if I remember right.

hearty otter
#

Wow that's genuinely helpful! VBThumbsUp

#

Can I ask you for help from time to time if I'm stuck in Arena please?

inner dune
#

Yeh go for it. I might be able to answer you or offer help. Keep in mind I have not played it in a serious manner in some time so I might not remember things and havent done most of the main quest stuff in years as ive beat it many times over. But sure go for it as I do enjoy seeing people enjoy arena and the things it offers most dont realize it has (lol daggerfall gets all the hype and is a great game).

hearty otter
#

Groovy and yes I agree Daggerfall deserves all its hype 🙂

#

I can't wait to see TES in its very first version 🙂‍↕️

inner dune
#

well you will be surprised at quite a bit of the OG versions of things. argonian and khajits visually come to mind.

hearty otter
#

Hehe, I might gasp XD

#

I've seen pictures of Wayrest and a couple of towns but that's all I'm prepared to see of Arena

inner dune
#

hilarious to see places in skyrim and arena and go 🤔 hmm seems smaller/larger than I remember it 🤣

hearty otter
inner dune
# hearty otter That's the aspect that excites me the most about Arena 🥂

Its pretty cool to go hit those locations up and go huh wow yeah nothing like (insert later game here). I think for me the ones that were the most drastic would be morrowind/skyrim ones as the size of those locations in arena compared to the skyrim and morrowind version is so drastic of a change. obviously due to engine limits and other things at the time (I think?) but seeing a place in arena thats huge and massive for a city than seeing the skyrim version being a cute little 6 building location is a bit amusing. bonus on locations outright missing or gone in later games. (skyrim I think has 6? missing (I think it was) from arena you can add back with a mod someone created).

jade plover
feral viper
#

And thats a quick list from the top of my head, limited entirely to games.

feral viper
#

I'd also say Phantasy Star, Shining Force, and Quest for Glory...

But there's a lot of personal nostalgia there. So it's difficult to seperate childhood from fact with them.

inner dune
#

also bonus on might and magic and quest for glory and shining force and phantasy star being mentioned. solid titles.

feral viper
livid ingot
#

Ooo there are some games with some great worldbuilding

feral viper
livid ingot
#

Like Divine Cybermancy

feral viper
#

I also forgot just... The top of my pile. In terms of worldbuilding, characters, writing, style... All of it.

#

Which reminds me... I should check to see if my mask has shipped...

hearty otter
feral viper
#

Legacy of Kain is the series.

That particular encounter is in Soul Reaver 2

#

LoK is the reason I'm patient.

Been waiting on a conclusion for 21 years...

#

LoK is how you explore concepts of destiny and free will.

Not Ithelia and multiverses

hearty otter
#

So this is legitimately new to me

feral viper
#

There was recently a remaster of Soul Reaver 1 and 2 on Steam. I highly recommend it.

#

And that's coming from someone who generally hates remasters on principle.

But it's so hard to find and run the original PS1 versions, so...

#

Another great line... This one from Soul Reaver 2

hearty otter
feral viper
#

LoK also has my single favourite line in all of gaming. But it's a spoiler so I won't say it.

hearty otter
night violet
#

Only MMo I play these days is Elder Scrolls Online

inner dune
#

oh snap legacy of kain. I have not enjoyed that series in some time. I do think I need to add the dreamcast version into rotation with power stone 2 and rival schools 2.

inner dune
dim reef
#

I'm playing Fallout 76 for now. ESO is getting a big update that's making most of it's major expansions free. I'm thinking of playing it again then

feral viper
#

I'm actually in the credits of the remaster somewhere...

night violet
glossy egret
#

Bethesda you gotta trim the fat and start getting some games out. I know your Microsoft overlords might be slowing things down but I'm starving over here.

feral viper
heady portal
#

Bethesda should make a game set in Akavir

#

I want to play as a samurai or ninja or ronin type character

#

Like a lone ronin hero who can wield magical powers and gods inspired by japanese mythology

#

there's plenty of material really idk why they don't do it

#

And extensive kung fu for hand to hand combatants and samurai style swordsplay

dim reef
#

Mystery is really all there is to Akavir. Take it away and it'll become a generic samurai/ronin land. That's probably the reason

#

It's best left mysterious

heady portal
#

thats a choice really

#

if you look at it that way skyrim should have been a generic viking land but it isnt

dim reef
#

Except Skyrim always had meat to it. Akavir literally only has mystery going for it. Nothing else

#

If anything some even got mad parts of Skyrim didn't turn out the way previous lore made it seem. Notably the ancient nordic pantheon related stuff

#

It was always rather well fleshed out

feral viper
#

I'd go so far as to argue Skyrim lost a lot of what made it special in the lore, in the game.

Not nearly as much as Cyrodiil, but still a lot.

heady portal
#

I think akavir needs a new story that will break free from the generic samurai stuff

feral viper
#

I think Akavir needs a lot.

And almost none of it from what we've seen so far.

#

Give us back blood drinking vampire snakes. Screw whatever the hell the Blades are.

heady portal
#

Hell yeah

#

Also some kind of new daedric power acquired by the kamal en their demon hordes attacking the whole continent

#

maybe too similar to oblivion?

#

flying needs to become a thing

feral viper
#

Make the Kamal a civilisation of Trolls riding mammoths and Wooley Rhinos.

Make the Tang-Mo a caste-based Jungle-book meets Planet of the Apes nation.

Make the Ka-po-tun full on Rakshasa. Massive sometimes multi-armed tiger people who can summon fire around their bodies.

heady portal
#

like sky islands with temples

#

i love the ka po tun idea

feral viper
#

Tell me that's not rad as hell.

heady portal
feral viper
#

Another reason to love Heroes of Might and Magic... But I digress.

heady portal
#

the mystery around humans in akavir is something though

#

the lore says they were either eaten or assimilated by the tsaesci

#

depends on whether the text is literal or not though

feral viper
#

I've always leaned towards eaten, as a way to harmonize the lore with what we see.

heady portal
feral viper
#

Ate, then became-like

feral viper
#

And a T8 ranged unit in that game is nuts.

heady portal
#

I was thinking of a hidden human civilization of humans who survived the tsaesci and then started living together with some dragons that also survived and they live on the sky islands together away hidden from other races who have been killing them

heady portal
feral viper
#

But, to the Tsaesci...

I have always been a fan of harmonizing the lore with having them be mutable. Most of them, due to the consumption of Men, are very human like.

Their leaders and aristocracy maintain more of their snake like features, while their rulers (who ate dragons) are far more monstrous in appearance.

heady portal
#

That is cool

#

like some kind of power hungry corrupt government

#

An alliance of the Tsaesci and Kamal against the forces of the Ka po tun and tang mo

feral viper
#

Now, that was based on an old attempt to reconcile inconsistencies between what we were told in Morrowind, and what we see from Oblivion onward.

So it's basically fanfiction and not representative of what we will get.

#

I personally expect the explanation rooted in 19th century bigotry instead

heady portal
#

Do you mean the Tsaesci?

#

I like the idea though, maybe a power similar to the vampire lords in skyrim

#

I think there were mods like this already for skyrim

feral viper
heady portal
#

I also saw a weredragon mod so that's a cool idea that fits the earlier refugee humans living with the refugee dragons and maybe intermingling

#

like the soulbonding with a dragon in rick and morty

feral viper
#

People of east-asian descent have been portrayed as having snake like features for basically as long as cartoons have been a thing in the west.

It started to fall out of favour in the 1950s, but did persist in some legacy styles much longer..

heady portal
#

Yeah I've always been a fan of it tbh

#

Also the ka po tun could be an army like that ghengis khan of some sorts

feral viper
#

A prime example of the trope being used even in children's media is in Lady and the Tramp. The Siamese (an east-asian people group) cats are depicted as slithering like snakes.

Despite that not being any kind of cat like behavior.

#

I'm more a fan of just leaning into the snake thing, instead of dredging up real-world stereotypes and depictions.

Don't just make the Tsaesci east-asian people. Make them ACTUAL snake people.

That way you aren't just using real world bigotry and xenophobia.

heady portal
#

I have seen some mods for skyrim where they are like that

#

either humanoid with snake like features such as the skin

#

or humanoid upper body with a snake lower body

#

like a mermaid almost

feral viper
#

Yeah. There's a lot of range you could play with if you wanted to.

I just really don't like how it's BEEN handled. Because just taking problematic real world portrayals and history, and adopting them wholesale, is... Not good.

For many reasons

heady portal
#

Who did that?

#

referring to the portrayal of east asian people in other media?

feral viper
#

TES.

Tsaesci have increasingly just been depicted as east-asian. Specifically Japanese.

heady portal
#

oh I see

#

yeah I think that's stupid because in the lore they are called a beastfolk

feral viper
#

Just human.

With the snake imagery being relegated to a cultural motif, or bigoted depictions in-universe.

heady portal
#

they should change that

feral viper
#

Like, the most we get now is 'Sometimes they wear snake masks'

heady portal
#

That's a big inconsistency

#

To make any race somewhat playable they should probably be humanoid in shape but I think the Tsaesci should look somewhat like an argonian as far as skin goes

feral viper
#

We also have a problem in ESO, where no one knows what the Kamal look like.

Despite literally interacting with characters who FOUGHT THEM

heady portal
#

Soooo maybe they're shape shifters?

feral viper
#

No, like, we have veterans of the war against Ada'soom. And yet somehow no one has any idea what the Kamal looked like.

Like, if they were shapes shifters, you'd expect it to be mentioned. But even the soldiers who actively fought them are like...

#

We know the meta reason why it's left vague. Because Bethesda doesn't know themselves, and didn't want to let ZoS make the call.

But it ends up just being nonsensical in the setting.

#

My overall point is..

I think Akavir has a lot of potential, yes.

But I've got zero confidence in seeing that potential realised in any remotely interesting way. Even less than i do for the provinces in Tamriel.

heady portal
#

maybe a magical power that makes your opponent forget what you look like?

#

Illusion magic

feral viper
#

There's ways to plug the hole. But the hole shouldn't be there in the first place.

Which is a chronic problem with the setting as a whole. It's more holes than plugs, really.

#

And I can't think of any mechanical reason to favour Akavir over anywhere else, so I couldn't personally justify it for the sake of gameplay opportunities.

Except MAYBE flying.

#

I think an India or China inspired landscape may contribute better to flying mechanics than anything we have in Tamriel.

heady portal
#

Well you see if there are sky islands there's a reason to be able to fly

#

maybe not all races can fly but can get there with hot air balloons or something

#

like the fire nation from ATLA

#

Then the refugee humans I'm talking about would be similar to the airbenders I guess

#

But I would leave the similarity at that

feral viper
#

I think Valenwood could have offered that opportunity, if it was cool.

Alas, ESO made it lame

heady portal
#

Maybe the humans aqcuired the ability to fly by soulbonding with dragons

#

Telekinesis could also be a thing

feral viper
#

Starfield introduced systems that could be used for Levitation.

Which SHOULD BE ADOPTED

#

The fact Starfield doesn't even make decent use of them is criminal.

heady portal
#

anti gravity field?

#

I never played it just looked it up

feral viper
#

Bubbles, really. But there's never had for ANYTHING beyond scene dressing

But more widely, your ship can lose gravity, and there's a handful of locations with no gravity.

#

And they're frankly some of the best environments in the entire game.

But there's so few of them

heady portal
#

How would that work in combat?

feral viper
#

Very strangely.

Which is the point.

heady portal
#

seems like it would make gameplay quite difficult with the timing and everything

feral viper
#

It could be as simple as just fighting like you're underwater (though I think that's a whole other barrel of slaughter fish)

#

Or it could be as complex as actual physics, requiring consideration of force and moment.

heady portal
#

also that would require crazy specs

feral viper
#

I'm waiting to see how The Expanse game handles some of it to really nail down where I sit on aesemetric movement

heady portal
#

Then again maybe by the time something like this is made even the most normal pc could handle it

feral viper
#

The thing is, Starfield does most of it.

It just never lets you do anything fun with it, and it's melee combat system is absolute garbage.

#

Melee in Starfield feels so bad, I think it's inclusion actually makes the game worse. So by and large I'd just discount it entirely when considering what you can do with the dynamic.

heady portal
#

right now only thing I can think of is like an aim assist or movement assist type mechanic so you don't have to be super skilled to play the game decently

feral viper
#

3-axis movement it's self isn't that difficult. We already do it with swimming in games.

The complication comes more from dynamic interactions while moving in that way.

heady portal
#

hmm

feral viper
#

Even momentum is something most games these days have for swimming.

And shooting a bow isn't functionally much different than shooting a gun. Not unless you want to get really hard-physkxs with it.

So melee becomes the main question.

heady portal
#

Let's say you have 2 characters fighting and able to fly. whichever one lands a hit should send the other flying if using a blunt weapon or cut in half if using a blade

feral viper
#

Absolutely.

heady portal
#

like a ragdoll in the case of the former

feral viper
#

Or imagine, you case a gravity spell on an enemy, causing them to levitate. You then shield bash them, setting them drifting off, unable to do anything until the spell ends..

#

Unless they have their own way to control their flight.

heady portal
#

and then taking massive falling damage if they end up falling

feral viper
#

Anything is an offensive spell of you know how to use it.

heady portal
#

you realize that fus ro dah will be a thing of the past if this is done correctly right

feral viper
#

Yup.

Though I think Shouts in general should either go away, or be fundamentally changed moving forward.

They were culturally relevant in Skyrim, not so much elsewhere.

heady portal
#

I mean yeah they don't contribute a lot to combat in skyrim on high levels anyways

#

the idea is cool but a fundamental change is required indeed

feral viper
#

Now, a Nord mage with the Thu'um cultural benchmark, using Levitate and Fus (only the first word) could still be a thing.

#

Kind of like combining Lift and Throw in Mass Effect.

heady portal
#

Somehow that brought up the image of thor's mjolnir in my head

feral viper
#

Hahah, probably a way to make that happen...

heady portal
#

But i havent played mass effect either

feral viper
#

But, I do think a lot of basic mechanics for TES, and Skyrim in particular, are a good foundation in general. They just need a lot of work, to let us do fun things.

#

My battery is almost dead though, and I've got another 30 minutes at least before I can get home and charge it, so I'll have to call this here.

heady portal
#

Also teleportation is something that I felt was missing

heady portal
feral viper
#

Great chat though, hope to do it again sometime.

heady portal
#

Yeah I feel the same, take care

dim reef
#

TES VI should be more like Morrowind

pulsar root
#

Nah just take what's worked in the past(The obvious stuff in most Bethesda game one world space etc etc) and go forward.

hearty otter
noble verge
#

Only if it's "more like Morrowind" in the positive ways, and not in the sense of having a level-up system that encourages buying your levels and skills and penalizes you for trying to level up the old-fashioned way.

#

Or the complete and utter disregard for anything resembling mechanical balance.

#

Or in the sense of draw distance, NPC AI, and the bizarre combat system combining manually-executed attacks with a tabletop-esque hit/miss system.

dim reef
#

Skyrim and ESO both tried to be more like Morrowind.
I don't think ES6 will be any different

noble verge
#

I think it really depends on what "more like Morrowind" actually means.

dim reef
#

Ok maybe ESO at first was more like Oblivion but over the years it became more like MW

noble verge
#

What I really loved about Skyrim is that it improved on the innovations that Oblivion made like facial customization and radiant AI, yet also brought back stuff that Morrowind did right (like a living world outside of the walled cities, and less use of level scaling), plus introduced a lot of stuff that neither of those those games had, like mining, crafting, and being able to affect the world to determine which faction will rule over it.

In the interim between Oblivion and Skyrim I got into Gothic 3, and playing Skyrim I feel like someone at Bethesda must have played it too.

noble verge
#

(For what it's worth I know that when anyone says "like Morrowind" they mean the game's timeless strengths such as world design and worldbuilding aspects and sheer scale of "do anything, even fly and teleport and jump across the entire game world in a single bound")

dim reef
#

Ig it's a downside to having so many races with unique face morphs but ah well

jade plover
dim reef
# jade plover How is it a downside?

Having so many different morphs you'd need to manually tweak all of them to be customizable. Which takes more time and naturally when the deadline is too tight you can't do everything

#

Fallout and Starfield don't have to worry about that. They just got humans faces.

noble verge
#

Regardless it's still a huge step up from Oblivion's facial customization, which was quite clearly Bethesda's first foray into it.

#

To their credit they did improve it by leaps and bounds by the time Fallout 3 came out.

dim reef
#

Nah. Oblivion's character creator was way better than Skyrim's

#

You could change so much about your face. In Skyrim you can barely sculpt your forehead

noble verge
#

It doesn't make up for the infamously and even memetically bad "potato faces" that Oblivion's system had.

dim reef
#

And the main reason for this I'm pretty sure is because Oblivion didn't have unique morphs like Skyrim. Elves and men used the same morph

#

Naturally they could tweak the morph better. Skyrim made it difficult since almost every race has a unique morph

hearty otter
dim reef
noble verge
dim reef
#

This isn't limited to just ES either. Dragon Age also had to human-ify it's races to fit the character creator

#

Tho admittedly TES did do it better imo

#

I hope with TES6 taking so long they'd have more time to tweak all the different races to be more customizable

feral viper
#

As far as character creation and customization goes...

TES and Bethesda more broadly are pretty average. Not good, not bad, but average.

#

You want good editors, you need to go into the bonkers nonsense of Indie-Survival games, or titles line Black Desert and Eve Online (which has an absurdly good editor considering the game).

dim reef
#

Nah Bethesda in general has slowly become one of the best. Fallout 4's CC holds up even to this day

#

But Skyrim was definitely a rather weak point as far as character creation goes

pulsar root
#

Dragon Age elves aren't too different from humans, which can't be said for TES Elves

dim reef
#

DA elves were different. But like i said they likely had to be humani-fied to fit the cc

#

DA2 didn't have any playable elfs and they looked pretty distinct there

#

Oblivion ofcourse suffered from the same issue. Elves and men looked very similar but at the same time it did offer a lot more customization options

#

It's a double edged sword essentially. Hard to get right

#

FO4 and Starfield ofcourse have fantastic ccs but again it's just humans

pulsar root
#

Yes but I think my only concern is customizations that fit said umm non human race(Elves,Argonian,Khajit).

Edit: To clarify concerned but not "OMG ES6 IS Doomed!11111"

feral viper