#elder-scrolls-general-chat

1 messages · Page 38 of 1

noble verge
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What bothers me is with Discord, you need an account to look at it. Even if the old forums' content was blocked from search engines it was far more easily accessed.

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And there was always that weird scraping site posing as a forum.

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Gamefallout/Gameskyrim/Gamesas

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One of the reason I liked the old convention of official game forums hosted by the dev or publisher was that they were usually more responsible about handing out moderator authority compared to fan forums or subreddits.

feral viper
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I've never understood why so many companies and studios switched to Discord for that very reason.

vagrant aurora
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It also wont let me search for other forums on the mobile app so I had to login on chrome and switch to "desktop site" to search and add another game. Then, come back to mobile. Strange...

dim reef
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TES VI will be Bethesda's best game

eager remnant
dim reef
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You can't have no loading screens with the type of games they make

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What they need to do is hide them better with cutscenes, animations or something else

dim reef
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I think it is possible. KCD2 does not have them

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Or does it?

livid ingot
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You just have to survive until 2094, the year it releases

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It'll be set solely on the Imperial Isle, at a similar scale to TES: II, and will feature 80 million fully fledged-out NPCs

wide garnet
livid ingot
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It's legacy is that it's the greatest game Bethesda Game Studios ever developed

livid ingot
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So techically you need to live to 2150 to truly appreciate it

wide garnet
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Me: * throws the big bucket of ice water at @livid ingot * That’ll cool yer brain off.

livid ingot
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But I'm on a roll here 💀

wide garnet
dim reef
dim reef
dim reef
# dim reef What does physics do with loading screens

The type of games Bethesda and Valve make keeps track of a billion different objects all around the map across multiple cells.
If you leave a piece of armor on one edge of the map it'll remain there forever. Same way you keep objects in settlements and they'll stay exactly how you keep them forever.
To keep track of all these things, the game needs to load them all separately to avoid straining the hardware

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Games like KCD2 or Cyberpunk don't do this which is why things simply despawn if you get far away from something. Which is also why they can get seamless loading across interiors and exteriors.

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Now theoretically it is possible to keep everything loaded in one instance but unless you have a NASA super computer, have fun playing at like 2 fps

feral viper
vagrant aurora
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It'd be cool if Bethesda were secretly working with an author like Fromsoft did with Elden Ring and George R. R. Martin.

feral viper
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Depends on the writer... And you have the added problem of the type of games being different.

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TES games aren't a single, cohesive story. They're dozens of stories set against a common backdrop.

It's a very different sort of thing to write for, that most authors... Aren't really that suited to do.

dim reef
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We do have some info on who the design director is for the game but i can't talk about it here since it counts as an unofficial info.

feral viper
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I am not aware of such rumours, so cannot comment.

dim reef
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It's not quite a rumor per say, it's on the person's personal profile. But rules are rules

feral viper
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Having looked it up... Indifferent.

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Though, I'm also not easily convinced by pedigree. Ken Rolston has a fantastic resume, and yet... My opinions on Oblivion are pretty well known.

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What someone has done in the past is no guarantee about what they do in the future.

night ember
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"if you see any stormcloacks, kill em"

the stormcloak camps are literally just there to ruin rp because characters are immortal. wtf

dim reef
feral viper
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Starfield handles them better, but in a lot of cases those issues persist.

And I think the persistence of those problems has heavily contributed to the Murder Hobo tendencies of players.

dim reef
feral viper
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Maybe it was FO4 I was thinking of.

Admittedly, haven't tried to kill many people in either.

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I tend to only do it to test the Essential status systems, not as something I actively do

dim reef
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Yeah FO4 is pretty generous with it. It's mostly the companions that are permanently essential and even then some of them can be killed depending on faction choices.
Beyond that most people are killable

primal olive
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fallort

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I do hope we can kill more NPCs in 6

feral viper
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Only if the punishment for murder is execution

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Imagine players reactions, after 25 years of joke justice systems in Bethesda games.

They murder an NPC, and just surrender to the guards for the crime, expecting the usual 'Serve Sentence' option. Instead, the screen fades to black, and then suddenly, they're being hanged.

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Even better if the game has a Hardcore character setting, where you only have a single save, and a death wipes it

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Not gonna lie. I don't care about the rest of the game. I don't care how terrible the writing, how shallow the world building, how bad the mechanics...

If TES6 did that? I'd buy it on principle.

vagrant aurora
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I also wonder if TES will have any celebrities as NPCs in likeness to Cyber Punks Johnny Silverhand. And what other famous voice actors they will pull. Personally, I'd like to see them have one of the youtubers that do dozens of near perfect impressions of other actors/characters voices.

feral viper
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Hot take...

Screen actors typically make for terrible voice actors. They're usually a waste of money for nothing but the marketing clout.

pulsar root
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Only if they have some passion involved, no need to overpay celebs who just drain the budget.

vagrant aurora
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Unrelated fun fact: Chris Farley was originally going to be the voice actor for Shrek. There's even recordings of Chris as Shrek on YouTube. Sadly, he passed away during production. R.I.P. Chris Farley.

Also R.I.P. to Gilbert Gottfried, Robin Williams, and many more who made incredible characters.

primal olive
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I need to ask Bethesda about snow elves so bad my hyperfixation has essentially become a special interest for them it is BAD

noble verge
dim reef
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We had Emil cameoing with his own likeness in FO4. Maybe ES6 will have a Todd cameo

noble verge
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Actually what I really want for a crime system that goes past the usual attempts to arrest.

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Like if you kill enough, they won't accept surrender at all and will attack you on sight. But if you pile up enough bodies, eventually they'll stop treating you as a threat to be eliminated and instead view you as a nigh-unstoppable walking disaster like Pelinal Whitestrake or Mehrunes Dagon for whom trying to arrest or kill is certain suicide.

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Also if you slaughter every guard in a town, there needs to be an option to coerce the regional ruler to remove your bounty- and you wiping out an entire guard force should become the thing of legend among everyone.

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Like with Markarth, imagine if resisting arrest actually advanced the plot, where killing enough Markarth Guards resulted in Madanach making the call and summoning the Forsworn to take the now defenseless city.

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I want open world games like TES to embrace the choice to crash out. I want a TES game where flying off the rails and becoming a GOW 3 Kratos level walking apocalypse is treated as a viable playthrough.

vagrant aurora
vagrant aurora
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I'd like to see more tools that actually function and can be used for minigames, quests, or just for fun: winch, ice pick, axe, saw(one and two-man), hammer/mallet, chisel(can be used on almost any wood in game), shovel, augers(for ice or wood), magnets, lanterns, usable rope, shackles, nets for bugs, small critters, or fish, throw lines for fishing, musical instruments(Ability to actually play instruments like the guitar in The Last of Us), can attach wagons to mounts, animal traps, catapult, usable Dwemer artifacts/tools, nuts/bolts that can be loosened/tightened, magnifying glass, binoculars, telescopes, Microscope minigame (to improve alchemy), gardening tools, paint, medical supplies, flint, sand glass, fillable containers, etc.

last dew
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I really hope Bethesda could take a lot of notes from BG3, an example of how a role playing game can really be. Elder Scrolls 6 should be a perfect opportunity to have those inspirations turned into a reality. Especially when it comes to story and compelling companions/followers.

glass marlin
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I also hope it takes shades from Fallout in terms of followers. I would like less in number, but better indepth character. Serana from Dawnguard was definitely a good start.

dim reef
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Neither of those two would exist without Bioware. That's where they should look for inspiration for follower related content.

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It's actually kinda funny because when Skyrim came out, Bioware took notes from it while making DAI then Bethesda took notes from their games while making FO4.
Full Circle.

primal olive
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she is so annoying, hand of Auri-El

tardy tiger
# primal olive if the characters end up like Serana I would do a genocide run

That's more how people find their talking.

But the character is fine. It's difference because you're around the character so much that they can do much then be quest giver who talks and you barely interact with them.

It's why ESOs returning characters can be fine because you're interacting with the character more. Just not how they did play in any order.

primal olive
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I like that we can continuously engage with her in various topics

dim reef
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Huh? She was uncaring? Half her dialogues are about how she cares about you

primal olive
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but she's like the worst thing about the dlc to me

dim reef
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Where? All she does is admire and be curious about everything

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The only place she doesn't care much about is the soul cairn which is.. well.. understandable

primal olive
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dialogue hold on timer for ext message

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I'm too lazy to dig through her entire uesp

primal olive
dim reef
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She makes a lot of sarcastic jokes but it's not because she doesn't care about anything

primal olive
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also this line is funny since it implies she's older than the end of the Ayleids
"Cyrodiil is the seat of an empire? I must have been gone longer than I thought. Definitely longer than we planned. Please, let's hurry. I need to get home so I can figure out what's happened."

dim reef
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That is a matter of debate whether she's a 1000 or 4000 years old

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The devs have been inconsistent to say the least about when she was sent into sleep

primal olive
dim reef
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4000 seems more likely I'd say. There's more contradictions to the 1000 year theory than the 4000 one

primal olive
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ok the issue was more about her constant sarcasm than snarky

dim reef
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That's understandable. Not everyone likes overt sarcasm

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I do so i love her but i understand

primal olive
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I love Gelebor because I like his character

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also the way he basically insults serana after her complaining is funny as heck to me

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"it's symbolic. I wouldn't expect you to understand." not a whole insult but it can come off that way

dim reef
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Pretty sure that was sarcasm as well

primal olive
dim reef
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Both parties jabbing each other essentially

primal olive
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I enjoy the prelates

tardy tiger
primal olive
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at the end of the day I would've preferred to kill her and take the scroll to isran

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like strategically it's smarter to just kill her there and prevent the vampires from getting a clue

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well on the other hand it could've lead to the volkihar attacking the dawnguard sooner

dim reef
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Also she talks about knowing how Dwemer looked which is unlikely if she wasn't present anywhere close to the first era

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And she also says she's been watching her mom tend to the garden for hundreds of years so she's been living as a vampire for atleast a couple hundred years

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All in all my estimate is she was put to sleep somewhere near the end of the first era

tardy tiger
dim reef
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But if it was just before the 2nd era i doubt she'd have any knowledge about how the dwemer looked like since by that point most people and books have started theorizing about it than having hard witnesses.
So 1st era seems likely

tardy tiger
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Second era is fine it's just TES is weird with a shut in character.

We know she wasn't allowed off the island and has been to Winterhold. Was it the college of Winterhold or Skyrims High-King we don't know.

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We also don't know when any of those things happen for her.

dim reef
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Also when was the solitude windmill built again?

tardy tiger
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Looking right past the looming Emperor's tower, you can glimpse Solitude's natural bridge arcing gracefully over to the windmill. Built during High King Erling's day, the bridge was said to be used used [sic] to discretely [sic] allow Captain Jytte, the famous privateer, to enter Castle Dour.
Though doesn't give a date to the windmill just the bridge.

dim reef
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Hm. Not much to go on then.
Iirc another clue is Harkon was apparently some sort of big king with a lot of land so was that before they had high kings and jarls?

tardy tiger
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I honestly imagine he was a Jarl of Solitude. Jarl and Count have been used as renamed kings.

Whatever timeframe there was Serana has been to Winterhold.

The issue is well there's no other Kingdom or Jarldom nearby as the Human places of Farrun and Jehanna were moved to the late second era by ESO.

dim reef
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So it's more likely it all happened before all that. Which is why i think 1st era is more appropriate

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Details are more hazy in that era so it's easier to fit all that in than the 2nd era which we have a lot of info about

tardy tiger
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That also depends on when the Castle was taken over. Because Volkihar Castle was made and owned by other people before Harkon took over and moved in.

Details are hazy in general tbh. Only the Reman and Septim Dynasty have any clear information.

dim reef
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True but the 2nd era comparatively is a lot more detailed than the first so less contradiction

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Late 1st era would be my guess

noble verge
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According to Gstaff, the intention was that Serana was sealed up in the Second Era, however in one the ESO AMAs, she was mentioned as having been sealed up in the First Era.

dim reef
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That's probably for the best too seeing the amount of second era stuff ESO adds or explores it's better to move the Vokihar stuff to the first era

primal olive
primal olive
dim reef
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I don't think mentioning the All maker does much in this case because if I'm not wrong all maker worshipping was common enough during both 1st and 2nd era

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As for the chantry. Didn't that particular war happen in the merethic era? The one that eventually led to the creation of the falmer

noble verge
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Even ignoring the 1008 year Dragon Break, the First Era spanned a very long time period compared to the subsequent eras.

primal olive
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the Falmer society as a whole ended during Harald's time

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so around 1e 100-200, the war in the crag started around 1e 300 and ended when the dwemer dissapeared

dim reef
primal olive
dim reef
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I swear it predated the 1st era. Maybe I'm misremembering

last dew
primal olive
dim reef
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Odd. The wiki says it was made in the merethic era for some reason yet the dialogue it links says first

primal olive
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which wiki

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never use fandom always use UESP and Imperial Library instead (iirc UESP is older than Wikipedia and Google)

last dew
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I know this is talked about before, but what if the next player character we're gonna play as in ES6 to be the Shezzarine? Kinda like how we become the Nerevarine in Morrowind?

dim reef
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UESP doesn't have a page dedicated to the chantry so i only remember reading about it on the fandom one

primal olive
last dew
dim reef
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Also yeah we already were the nerevarine. We don't become one

primal olive
primal olive
dim reef
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Ah. I searched up "Chantry of Auri El" that's why it didn't show up

last dew
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Ok you got me. I thought of wanting to play as the Shezzarine because the name's similar to Nerevarine. Also, so much mentions and references of Shezzarine or Shezzar. I know people speculated Pelinal's the Shezzarine, but Pelinal does not seem to like that because he hates gods, and the guy who stated and thought Pelinal's the Shezzarine was smothered by moths.

primal olive
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sorry I can't contribute more knowledge I literally specialize on the snow elves in particular for some reason

last dew
# primal olive go my moths

The notable references of the Shezzarine and Shezzar is of course from The Song of Pelinal. Imagine we play as the Shezzarine in TES6 and we have a role of the Illiac Bay and fighting the Thalmor for it.

primal olive
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nah

dim reef
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Ok. I have gathered some knowledge to fix what i thought. So the chantry was built in the first era and is it ever mentioned when it fell apart? Don't see it on the wiki

primal olive
last dew
# primal olive nah

I respect your opinion of not wanting that. But we have not heard the last of the Thalmor.

dim reef
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Hm. So i'd say keep that entire plotline contained during the first era

primal olive
dim reef
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I'll personally travel to Bethesda's hq if they just write the entire thalmor war out in ES6

last dew
last dew
primal olive
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if we go to Alinor then probably but if we say visit Hammerfell and Balfiera maybe not

dim reef
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Anything of the sort. The thing they typically do when they refuse to acknowledge choices made in prior games

primal olive
last dew
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Would the Dragonbreak affect those? I just want to know the canon ending to the Skyrim Civil War, and how those affect the story of TES6. Are just gonna be written off as all nine providences being their own independant countries instead of being ruled by any empire like the Dominion or the Imperial Empire?

dim reef
last dew
# dim reef I do not care what matters or not. I want a full scale war across all of tamriel...

I like the way you think. I would also want a full scale war. The Second Great War as well. If there's a war against the Thalmor, sign me up in TES6! If there's a war with an army of vampires similar to Netflix's Castlevania series where the vampire lord leads an army against the mortals of Tamriel, sign me up! The last time we kinda have a war like that was the Oblivion Crisis. The Skyrim Civil War don't count, because it's just a civil war in Skyrim and to the Imperials, a distraction on the real upcoming war against the Thalmor.

primal olive
fallow aurora
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Siege camps are bugged out. They appear to despawn straight away

tardy tiger
tardy tiger
primal olive
vagrant aurora
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I want to be able to catch bugs and put them in jars. Imagine having a room lit up by jars full of torchbugs.

feral viper
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While the games can Run With hundreds of entities at a time, they don't run well.

And the AI certainly doesn't know what to do with it.

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The best I think we can hope for, is war as a backdrop with a few cutscenes or cleverly framed sequences (not like Skyrim's battles, those were neither clever, nor framed).

Full scale war isn't really on the table.

slow loom
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Still masterful and hard to top even to this day.

feral viper
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I mean... I'm pretty sure you could make a list of Uematsu pieces alien that top Skyrim, or TES...

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There are a lot of good composers out there. But that man is brilliant.

slow loom
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Yeah FF stuff is alright. Doubt your average gamer would recognise them in a blind test.

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Good music is heard and great music is felt.

dim reef
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I hope Bethesda does a live orchestra for FO4's music as well like they did with Skyrim's music back in it's 10 year anniversary

feral viper
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And what country you're doing it in, in fact.

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I would actually put money on getting a higher hit-rate of FF music in the west, than TES music in the east.

We take our association with TES for granted, but we have to remember they the western market isn't all there is. And western games have a history of struggling in eastern markets.

slow loom
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Music is the closest thing we have to a universal language but cultural differences will make some music resonate more with the listener. I was more referring to the west than eastern gamers. I do like FF games but I've never liked them because of the music as much as I like TES for it's music. This might get a little pedantic if we go any deeper.

pulsar root
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And subjectivity even more with Music. Sometimes they hit and sometimes it doesn't phase me but thats not a harsh criticism I'm not gonna throw coal at Bethesda for sometimes not hitting the mark with music.

feral viper
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Indeed.

I can conclusively say, however, objectively, that Country is the lowest form of music in the universe. Even including the alien musics we haven't discovered yet.

nimble pond
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The cows love it tho, mooooo. Especially the cats and their fiddles.

vagrant aurora
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While playing The Elder Scrolls Castles, I can't help but think of how cool it would be to have some of these scenarios in TES6. When the king was asked a question about art from a far away place, I was able to choose: no, it's too dangerous to travel there, or sure how about something rustic. I chose rustic, which is a risk because now they have to take on the dangerous travel. I like the risk. I like the thought of being able to make the choice and what if their ship wrecked along the way? Would I now get to investigate the shipwreck? Maybe they were shot down by other factions. Maybe it's weather related, sea monsters, or rocks/icebergs in the water that sank the ship. As a ruler, it would affect the local economy negatively, as a player, it gets me excited.

feral viper
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Castles was a fun little game. Not as good as Fallout Shelter, but pretty solid none the less.

livid ingot
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdljTiX4aNk
Topic for discussion today: What kind of creatures do you want to see in TES VI?

YouTube
Let's Talk Religion
Arabic Folklore’s Most Terrifying Creature: The Ghoul

Long before modern horror imagined zombies or demons, ancient Arabic folklore spoke of the Ghoul (غول) — a terrifying shape-shifting creature haunting deserts, ruins, and graveyards. In this video, we uncover the true origins of the Ghoul: its roots in pre-Islamic Arabian mythology, its transformation through Islamic tradition, and its last...

▶ Play video
feral viper
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I don't want to see direct analogies to real world mythologies.

Had enough of that with Oblivion and Skyrim, and honestly... It was pretty much all bad.

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Give me more Bonewalkers, Guar, Frostwraiths, etc.

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You can draw inspiration from real world mythologies, but actually try to ground them in the world and setting for a change.

pulsar root
feral viper
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I'd go so far as to say looking at Arabic mythology is the wrong place to get inspired

livid ingot
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There can be analogies of course but the creatures should be unique (ala After Man, Avatar the Last Airbender, etc etc)

livid ingot
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It would obviously be nice to see more creativity in this regard. But BGS has shown they've delved into all three on a fairly regular basis.

feral viper
pulsar root
feral viper
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As far as using Arabic influences in Hammerfell though...

Well, I was blindsided by how bad the Bosmer were, so I definitely was kinder in my reaction to Hammerfell than it deserved, but like... Why would it have arabic mythic fauna?

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It's clearly established at this point that the Redguard culture stretches back to Yokuda. If there were arabic mythic creatures that shaped their culture, they'd be in YOKUDA, not Hammerfell.

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The reasonable likelyhood of an Arabic inspired fantasy culture leaving an Arabic inspired fantasy land... And ending up in another Arabic inspired fantasy land, is frankly just silly.

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Even less, of an Arabic inspired fantasy culture, leaving an entirely unrelated fantasy land and ending UP in an Arabic inspired fantasy land.

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Kinda reminds me of the Warcraft retcon regarding the Dragonmaw Tribe.

livid ingot
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Although that would be good of they did so

feral viper
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Better suited to Elsweyr, IMO.

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Draw on other arid environment inspirations for hammerfell.

Old Egyptian and subsaharan mythologies, Andean cultures, Mongolian, etc.

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There's already far too much big standard Turk in the Redguard. At this point they might as well just be renamed the Ottomans.

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You don't need for Arabian desert, of even the Sahara. You can look to the Atacama, Gobi and Kalahari for ideas.

feral viper
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You could have Almas, as a reclusive relative to the Inga.

Pishtaco, as an undead monster haunting ruins near trade routes.

Garuda (which could also be known as Rocs by other cultures).

Aigamuxa, a humanoid predator that waits in the sands.

Muki, a local variation of goblins who more resemble the Hobbs of Fable.

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There's all kinds of other mythical influences to draw on.

Though, again, I'd rather take inspiration from mythology, not just steal from it.

feral viper
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I actually think they fought a Pishtaco in Supernatural...

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Though, on the whole, I think this issue plays into a major, chronic problem for TES.

It's too Western-Coded. It's influences for basically half the setting are very one dimensional, stereotypical, western fantasy.

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The one place where we could see some of the massive breadth of influences explored a little (given that the Redguard are descendants from an entire CONTINENT's worth of people)?

Probably just gonna be Ottoman Turks, man. Another western fantasy trope.

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The one time TES stepped out of these stereotypes and tropes, we got Morrowind. And it was brilliant.

And we just aren't likely to ever see that again.

nimble pond
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Oh, so I'm guessing the Demons of Kamal in Akavir would be.. Russian? Lol

dim reef
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French

vagrant aurora
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Was scrolling X and saw a video of Crimson Desert and the caption was "You can ride a bear, a dragon, or pilot a mecha." And more mount examples in the video.

It got me thinking about how there are dwemer ruins in Hammerfell. If the setting were in Hammerfell, it would be awesome if you could pilot a dwemer construct. Not that there aren't dwemer ruins in other regions too.

nimble pond
dim reef
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Yes

feral viper
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I'd still be disappointed, but kit surprised

feral viper
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Aaaand balls. Thanks @nimble pond . Now all I can picture for the Second Akaviri invasion are a bunch of Russian Orthodox crusaders trying to reclaim the Ordained Receptacle, and bungling around like Tzar Nicholas I during the Crimean War.

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Ada'Soom was just Tamriel Rasputin, confirmed.

primal olive
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snow elves

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I love making up a majority of snow elf mentions I will be a day one snow elf revival fan

nimble pond
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I hope they have some cool magic traps and more barbaric physical traps, lava pits, spiked crusher, we can build to defend our homes in the game. Even using animals, like a mud crab pit full of many mud crabs, what a horrible way to die. Kinda like Horde. I know they had it somewhat in F4. Two home types I'd be interested in (well 3, actually), my own lil island, underwater (could make a cool entrance/exit with that), and a built-in mountain fortress.

vagrant aurora
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I also want there to be at least a dozen different lockpicking minigames. Not every lock in the game should be the same.

nimble pond
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Well, I'd be done for two types of locks. Physical locks & magic locks. Physical lock picks would be useless on magic locks. Some might have a combination of both for maximum security.

dim reef
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who will be the composer?

dim reef
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Most likely Inon Zur

dim reef
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Who is the lead quest designer

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I'm not sure I'm allowed to say that here seeing as it's not official info but look up "ES6 design director", it'll show up on reddit

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Someone found it listed on the person's linkedin profile

feral viper
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Worth noting, of course, that Design Director, and Lead Quest Designer, aren't necessarily the same role. So the info may not even be directly applicable to the question.

dim reef
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Hm. That is true.

nimble pond
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You know, a more thorough crime investigative unit/guild could be fun. Mixed with fantasy and medieval theme. Especially for more unique and high-profile cases. Sherlock & Watson? Run by locals, not actual guards or anything, but sometimes involving them to collaborate on cases. Even weeding out some of the corruption in those official offices. And a good excuse to introduce some actually decent puzzles instead of the "connect the dots" puzzles.

nimble pond
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Also. Why not allow players to serve as companions for NPCs. Working as a mercenary/hireling taking advertised jobs on a job board, newspaper, or whatever. I mean if they do add "jobs" in the next game, they could throw this into the mix.

nimble pond
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And I don't know when, but maybe in the future an enemy that is threat not only to Tamriel, but also to the Daedra (capable of permanently destroying them, Princes & their realms included). Forcing them to temporarily ally and fight alongside the people of Tamriel, or face total annihilation alone.

feral viper
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I actually was hesitantly optimistic about the Freestar Rangers, despite the Yee-Haw coybow nonsense, for that reason.

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It was the biggest disappointment since Valenwood

tardy tiger
nimble pond
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I agree, they could do more detail on the whole structure and ranking of enforcement. For example, as your bounty rises, tougher ranked guards begin coming at you with better armor and such. Maybe having more guards that actually use magic? It seems like they were melee majority with the occasional bow.

feral viper
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Magic and Law Enforcement is one area where the worldbuilding of TES so radically fails, it's staggering.

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Like, why do Guards come at you with swords and bows, when per Oblivion you can literally just buy Paralyze Spells?

dim reef
#

I hope TES VI will be great

eager remnant
nimble pond
timid drum
#

He did indeed

pulsar root
#

Probably more skilled at it then the average person who tries to pick up the spell. At least thats the only for it to make sense otherwise..... yikes....

primal olive
#

I love redoran

feral viper
dim reef
feral viper
#

Which means it's a reliable, quick to pick up, out of the box practice.

dim reef
#

Is it tho? There's dialogue in skyrim suggests you can only use it if you're well versed in that particular school of magic

feral viper
#

And information in Oblivion and Morrowind indicates otherwise.

dim reef
#

Ah. The classic ES contradiction

nimble pond
#

Are y'all talking about purchasing spell tomes?

dim reef
#

No. Directly purchasing spells

nimble pond
#

Ohh

feral viper
#

Tomes are the Skyrim variation of it, but purchasing spells is directly referenced on multiple occasions as well.

dim reef
#

Yeah. Faralda says she can give us a spell IF we know how to use said school of magic

#

Ofcourse gameplay wise it doesn't matter. You can use it no matter your skill

feral viper
#

It's all reconcilable of course. It just takes a lot of work to do so

tardy tiger
dim reef
#

It's the entry dialogue when you first enter the college

pulsar root
#

Sometimes Gameplay>Lore. It makes sense gameplay wise for some stores to offer spells despite the lore implications of handing out certain spells out like that.

dim reef
#

Yeah it's definitely a small gameplay lore disparity

nimble pond
#

Ok so wild thought. But so, alduin stopped in skyrim, he's like death or the ending, that helps bring about the new beginning. Cycle, kapla.

Now that ldb stopped him. What is the consequence of that? Is time now broken? Will we be subject to a fate worse than death in tesvi. Like having to die over and over and over again with no end in sight, like groundhog day.
Basically you start the game during well, actually the end. The entire planet is collapsing, natural disasters everywhere and you witness the actual death of the current Nirn, as well as yourself and everything.
Than after the introduction, you wake up and everything is back. And time is short to figure out how to stop the endless loop of death before it becomes permanent loop?

And perhaps there will be "echoes" of time and past enemies and catastrophes popping up all over the map, threatening the current time.

noble verge
night ember
#

god the creation club stuff is such ghetto trash, why did they even make these
its cheap slop that takes you out of the game every time it pops up, I mean at least have someone get in a booth and voice the terrible storylines you use to excuse the repulsive freemium gear they all come with

night ember
#

dang the dog ownership in this game is busted too?

feral viper
#

I'm personally on the side of 'We broke the world'. Alduin had a job to do, and we interfered in it. Now we see what happens when Mundus is left to run without a reset timer.

dim reef
#

🎵 If Alduin's eternal,
then eternity's done 🎵

quasi orchid
#

Hewo

timid drum
tardy tiger
dim reef
#

I think Alduin's vegetarian and he's maintaining a facade about eating people to look cool

nimble pond
#

Perhaps it merely broke the cycle and there will not be another new world, this one will go on without end?

I was just playing with what Partysnax & Badabing were saying at the end of the main quest. The currents of time and world never being same was just interesting dialogue to me.

I always thought it'd be cool if time got messed up and they used that to pay some homage to the past titles, like shades of past bosses appearing to battle. Just a lil' nostalgia included.

And while I don't think would anyone would do this, but in some instances you travel back so far into the past, the graphics temporarily revert to Daggerfall-style. 😄

dim reef
#

Could be cool. Starfield i think has a quest where you can meet historical figures

#

well not the real ones but still

feral viper
#

My problem with the 'Nothings changed, Alduin was out of line' has always been that it makes Alduin a terrible antagonist.

#

Just another in a long line of big bad guys who are mean for the sake of it.

#

There's enough scraps there to make a moderately interesting antagonist out of him though. And it only requires a single out of game source

#

And even that's not really needed, it's just contextualizing the wider picture...

nimble pond
#

Another concept is similar to Dragon Breaks, but just bc Alduin was stopped, does that mean a new world will not try to emerge anyway, even without Alduin ending the current one. Then you have this competition between two worlds competing to exist as the current one. Can two versions of the world coexist for eternity? Would even more worlds be created over time to the point where you have thousands of versions of the world all coexisting without any end?

feral viper
#

Could do a Tiamut, or Abier-Toril thing with it, yeah

#

Tamriel v13.0 is coming whether we want it or not. And now no one wiped the hard drive first.

nimble pond
#

Maybe, but I don't know if I really like it.

#

I'm just currently fascinated by the concept of time echoes and how that could be incorporated into gameplay and things to fight.

feral viper
#

Ultimately, I just want a decent antagonist.

#

Dagoth Ur was the only one we've gotten, and with him it was only if you look at his history as Voryn Dagoth, NOT as Dagoth Ur

#

Because Ur was just 6 barrels of nuts.

pulsar root
#

The concept of a world ending and starting new is a very cruel concept, do the people of Tamriel not have the right to live their lives?

nimble pond
#

Is time considered "sentient" in the TES world?

feral viper
#

If the world was designed by immortal spirits, with the express purpose of periods of self reflection followed by a reset so they could go again, it wouldn't feel cruel by THEIR standards.

#

To the Et'ada, Mortals are just personas they take on for the run of a game.

nimble pond
#

I just wondered if "time" itself would now "feel" under threat and activate a defensive mechanism?

feral viper
#

Akatosh is a dragon, and therefore a raging, self important egotist.

I doubt he's capable of feeling threatened.

nimble pond
#

That's what I was wondering about. Is time literally just Akatosh, or does it have any sense of it's own independence in anyway? And does that mean the Elder Scrolls themselves would also be tied to Akatosh?

feral viper
#

The scrolls, absolutely. Because they stop working when you break the dragon.

nimble pond
#

Makes sense

feral viper
#

During Dragonbreaks, the Scrolls seem to go blank. So without a specific flow of time, they don't work.

nimble pond
#

Makes you wonder, if time is that vulnerable. What's stopping anyone from taking it over and engineering it to work differently? Even rewrite history. Unless stopped ofc, somehow.

feral viper
#

I think the Aedra are particularly vulnerable,because of the whole Creation thing

#

In effect, they threw all their money into a joint account with a billion other minor spirits. If one of those spirits managed to withdraw too much, they can spend it on something stupid like a giant inflatable unicorn sprinkler, or breaking reality.

#

Meanwhile, all the Daedra have personal accounts.

nimble pond
#

That'd be something to absorb all that power, controlling virtually every aspect of creation. The God of gods.

#

Whatever the case, if the Ada Tower is included in the next in-game map, something big bound to happen.

last dew
#

Really hope they add spears for TES6.

feral viper
nimble pond
# last dew Really hope they add spears for TES6.

Dragon Knights would be cool. Spear throwing would be ideal for it. Hell, even throw some shiny armor on-top of their already armored bodies. Maybe LDB or Partysnax convinced some of the remaining dragons to ally with man.

feral viper
#

Spears could be interesting, but only with an overhauled combat system.

nimble pond
#

Explosive-tipped spears, so it's like raining down bombs from above lol

tardy tiger
#

Why do I feel Samurai Jack did that with their Spartans?

pulsar root
wide garnet
harsh crown
#

Let's be sure to keep all comments within the guidelines of the #rules

timid drum
#

sorry but i dont see a ticket channel, so why did I get a warning?

harsh crown
nimble pond
pulsar root
nimble pond
#

Besides they don't really die anyway. They just transition to the afterlife. Whether that's Sovangarde, Soul Cairn, wherever.

#

Well generally it's been reset and repeat in TES world.

#

Anyway, I wasn't saying I was for a reset cause that's boring to me. Just discussing the Kalpa and how all that works.

nimble pond
# wide garnet Not gonna lie, that’s be pretty cool.

For real. Feels like a Greek God literally casting thunderbolts out the Sky like in Fantasia. And the Dragon Knight commanding the dragon to create a mini-vortex using their massive wings. Could be down with their voice, but let the wings get some action.

feral viper
#

Because that's another area in which TES is critically underdeveloped.

Prior to Skyrim, we probably could have gotten away with Afterlives maybe being a real thing, maybe being mythology, but that ship has solidly sunk now...

#

I do sort of agree with @pulsar root though, at least in the broader context.

But I think it misses the contrast between what Mundus was designed for, and what it has become.

#

For the et'Ada, it really was a 'Ok, we're starting over again, Lol' sort of situation. So their design and their concerns would be in line with that.

However, that doesn't mean that Mortals, living in that world, would be aware of even agree with that. Technically they would have signed up for that in the beginning, but they have no memory of that agreement now.

They're simply trying to live their lives, a best as they experience them. They aren't as concerned with the grand machinery of divine self-reflection.

#

But then you get the problem of.. how do those spirits, living through those countless do-overs, develop and change themselves? What if they now want out, or want to break the system they originally helped build?

nimble pond
#

Prometheus?

feral viper
#

Something similar, to an extent.

#

Though depending on the variation of the Myth, Prometheus may not have had a change of heart...

nimble pond
#

I was just perplexed and at a loss for words because it seemed like they were actually taking offense to TES because of it's world design? At least that's how I read it. Apologies though, wasn't intended to offend anyone by discussing game lore.

pulsar root
#

Only certain elements, not all of them.

noble verge
#

Skyrim threw that out the window with the revelation that Sovngarde is very real.

noble verge
pulsar root
#

Yeah their world is very grimdark.

feral viper
#

Personally, I think confirming the nature of Afterlives was a huge writing mistep that has fundamentally undermined the deeper lore and themes of the setting, to the point where perspectives that would have otherwise been sympathetic (The Altmer, Mythic Dawn, even the Thalmor) are now just explicitly wrong and irrelevant.

#

But Afterlives are incredibly difficult to write in any sort of logical way anyway. So including them is almost garunteed to cause problems.

Only D&D and Warhammer really handle this in any worthwhile way, by making Afterlives not eternal. In both cases, you eventually simply diffuse into whatever the medium of the afterlife is, ceasing to be entirely.

nimble pond
#

It's possible It's the same for TES. Sovangarde been around a long time, but looked pretty empty when we got there. Or maybe only certain spirits reach eternity?

pulsar root
#

I think it would of been far less complicated to have each species to have its own afterlife and well tread carefully if said afterlife can be explored. That said with Nord's sovengarde, its already done and I don't think we can go back on that particular subject.

noble verge
feral viper
#

But that's only part of a deeper problem with Afterlives and how they function in TES's deeper mythology.

#

The whole Man-Mer ideological schism is one where Men view the world as a gift to them by the gods, and Met view it as a prison keeping them from being eternal spirits.

But with Afterlives, Mer are just wrong, and Men are just ignorant. You spend a few decades on a crappy rock, then get to go off and be an eternal spirit forever anyway.

Mortality is at worst a time out, at best a vacation.

noble verge
#

I always figured those who fail to beat Tsun end up falling into the void.

feral viper
#

Which raises a further question... You can't actually kill any of the spirits. If Tsun throws you in the hole, do you just fall forever?

timid drum
#

Its Bethesda, it aint supposed to make sense

feral viper
#

This isn't just a Bethesda problem.

Afterlives in general just don't make sense if you think about them for more than 30 seconds.

noble verge
#

One possibility is that the old stuff about the dreamsleeve is still mostly true, but some- Human heroes, Daedra worshipers, and victims of black soul gems- end up in more permanent or long-term destinations.

feral viper
#

Which would, in principle, lead to a gradual depletion of souls available for Mundus to function. Leading to a slow systemic collapse.

#

Because Mundus doesn't MAKE souls. The souls are et'Ada, or parts of them, stuffed into temporary meat suits.

#

If some of those spirits, or parts of them, are gradually escaping, you have a leak. And you're gonna run out of water eventually.

noble verge
#

In theory, it would all get reset when the Kalpa ends and Alduin takes all the mortal pieces of the et'Ada into himself.

feral viper
#

Well, depending on what you interpret the Kalpic ending as anyway...

#

My preferred reconciliation was that the Afterlives we see are just holding pens for souls until Alduinbdoes his job.

Then everything gets thrown back into the blender.

pulsar root
#

dumb lore

feral viper
#

Contextually consistent with the purpose of Mundus in the first place, both overtly (what Auriel planned) and covertly (what Lorkhan planned).

#

The main competing model was that, when the Kalpa ends, the world dissolved, and all the souls become the new spirits, taking over the roles of those who came before.

Then, for some reason, they all get together again and do the exact same thing they all HATED last time.

nimble pond
#

Maybe they try to do it differently each time, but it all leads to the same end anyway?

#

You kinda make it sound like the gods themselves are mortal? Like with life and death, the old generation dies, the new generation takes over. It's a cycle. And sounds kind of similar to this Kalpa thing.

dim reef
#

I just realized all of Dibella's statues are naked. For some reason i always thought they had her wearing a bra

trail dust
#

just like classical statues happy_noise

dim reef
#

Speaking of Dibella her quest makes me real mad in skyrim. Why is it so linear. I either have to send the child off to a bunch of idiots at the temple or not rescue her at all.

#

The other divine quests have choices but this one, you gotta do it exactly one way

vagrant aurora
#

I hope they make it so that there are a variety of colors and patterns on the pelts of each animal, so that no two are the same. I think this would add variety to the overall experience and keep things fresh so that every time you fight an animal, they don't look exactly the same as the last.

For example: Each brown bear could have randomly generated light/dark spots, scars from fights with humans or other animals. Rabbits would all have unique spots and patches. Same for cats, dogs, goats, deer, birds, you name it! You may have some that look very close, maybe the white on a cat's paw comes up its leg an extra inch higher than its sibling, but still different. Maybe they're missing some teeth, eyes, or limbs, tails cut short, gimp limbs, mangy spots, feathers missing, chunks out of a fin, whiskers differ in length and color, ear sizes different, ears missing chunks from bites, some are fat and some so skinny and starved that you can see their skeletal structure, etc.

This is one area I feel like Random generation could be utilized in a cool way. Of course, I'd still want some handcrafted, special-looking animals or beasts (a quest may have you slay the mudcrab with the giant blue pincher), but for other non-important wild animals or beasts, let them all look unique (within reason, a brown bear with pink and purple spots wouldn't make sense).

feral viper
#

That's a little trickier to accomplish than it may at first seem.

Not impossible, but.. it would require an algorithmic texture generator for every animal pelt, with different baseline variables.

Doable. But making half a dozen individual textures for each pelt type would be much easier.

dim reef
#

They already have achieved a very impressive amount of fauna count in Starfield. It's just a shame unless you explore for a billion hours you won't see a lot of it

#

According to reports there's roughly 218 creatures

vagrant aurora
#

I should add that they should be randomly generated upon respawn as well, making it feel like a different animal moved into the territory.

feral viper
#

There's definitely some visual interest that can be caused by it. But I think it would be necessary to integrate it with more systems than just looking different.

vagrant aurora
#

I agree, expand upon the idea. Each climate would have its own limits on how they look.

dim reef
#

Like i said they've already done a good job with that in Starfield.
The issue is the amount of planets are so bloated you rarely see them

vagrant aurora
#

Depending on the health and size of the animal, they could be weaker or stronger, faster or slower, use more or fewer attacks.

feral viper
#

The variety of creatures in Starfield are definitely hampered by... Well... Starfield.

vagrant aurora
dim reef
#

Ah Starfield. One step forward two steps back

#

Every good decision in Starfield has atleast one bad decision that makes your head scratch

feral viper
#

More like... One step forward, then a fall down a flight of stairs...

dim reef
feral viper
vagrant aurora
#

I want to play Starfield, however, I fear I'll be disappointed like so many others. Do I play it and risk disappointment or do I skip it so that the generational leap between Bethesda games for me will be greater?

feral viper
#

So you could have, in principle, 3 or 4 Wolves of different level, so they don't just become useless.

dim reef
#

It's not that it's bad. Just very odd

#

Like there are a lot of things about it i like

#

Movement, Creature variety, lighting/visual improvements, dialogue and trait system

#

But for every improvement there's one dis improvement.
Like Crafting

#

Now instead of just getting materials and crafting. You need to find additional materials to research the item before you can craft it which itself requires more materials

vagrant aurora
#

Maybe Starfield will be on sale around black friday, and I'll get it for the Series X.

pulsar root
dim reef
#

Even the loading screens people complained about.
They made these cutscenes for landing and grav jumping but instead of using them to hide the loading they just play separately

feral viper
#

My long list of problems with Starfield is not a conversation for here.

But there is enough in there to still have value.

dim reef
#

Yeah like i liked my time with it but so much of it's design decisions are just so odd

#

Even the music which i usually adore felt quite directionless in the game. Like it has no clear idea what it's trying to be

feral viper
#

It did feel very Oblivion in that way, yes.

vagrant aurora
#

What are your thoughts on body types when creating your characters?

#

Old style or Oblivion remaster style?

feral viper
#

Haven't played the remaster, probably never will, so can't comment.

dim reef
#

It's the same as og. They just changed the names to type 1 and 2

feral viper
#

I like body types, though I think Black Dessert Online, and EvE Online have some of the best models for that sort of morphology.

vagrant aurora
#

Oblivion remaster didn't let you choose between male and female. It was Body type A(male) or body type B(female)

feral viper
#

Oh, I wasn't even thinking in that way. I was thinking more general variation...

vagrant aurora
#

It makes me wonder what they will do with TES6. Either way people will be upset

#

Maybe Oblivion remaster was a test

feral viper
#

Personally, I'm not keen on explicitly sex-linked phenotypes. It's overly limiting in terms of characters

#

So Type A and Type B (and even C and D) suits me just fine.

dim reef
#

I mean it doesn't matter if a small group of people are upset over such a small thing

feral viper
#

Biology is complicated as-is. Throw magic and other species into the mix, and clinging to grade school generalisations is just silly.

vagrant aurora
#

This may be a hot take, but I'd like to be able to adjust bust and buttocks sizes and have realistic, not overly rambunctious, jiggle physics. Some RPG's are starting to allow for this and I feel like we should be able to make the characters the way we want. I know certain armor sets would be hard to do with this but a mages robe would, theoretically, work better. People sometimes want to make themselves in games and not all people have the same size chest or bottom. Why limit it?

feral viper
#

This is why I like EVE, and BDOs system. It's got a LOT of variability, and lets me really... BDOs animations are way more intensive than anything Bethesda has ever done.

vagrant aurora
#

Some people like to run around unclothed, look at Baulders Gate 3, for instance.

feral viper
#

So if they can do it with different length limbs in BDO, it's clear proof that it should be possible with simpler animations in a Bethesda game.

vagrant aurora
#

Let me tell you, I got ATTACKED in a different forum over this lol

feral viper
#

Such is the blight of internet forums

feral viper
vagrant aurora
#

Do you think there will be Mature adult activities in TES6? Todd has said how much he likes Game of Thrones and if youve seen it you know what I mean. Im down for a dark and gritty more mature TES. We've all grown up since Skyrim

feral viper
#

Unlikely

#

Bethesda has consistently stayed away from those sorts of things for two decades now, at most giving them lip service.

#

I don't see that changing.

vagrant aurora
feral viper
#

Don't get me wrong, while I do think that nudity as used in most games is childish, I do think that, properly used, more adult themes and content add a lot to a world. Be it to represent the darker aspects, or to play up the more... Enjoyable ones.

But Bethesda has actively avoided these things for literal decades now, for one reason or another. And I don't see that changing.

dim reef
dim reef
pulsar root
#

Cynically all they need to do is let modders handle "that"....side of Skyrim/whatever province we end in

feral viper
dim reef
#

I don't know why they don't do it tho like what's the point of fade to black sex scenes.

feral viper
#

Getting into a discussion on censorship and ratings is a whole other barrel of rancid, political fish, so I won't do that...

dim reef
#

In fact not just sex or romance. There's hardly any interaction animations between npcs. Handshakes, hugs, hand holding. Nothing

feral viper
#

Well, I think that's probably more an animation problem...

#

Have you seen how janky direct physical contact animations are in Bethesda games?

dim reef
#

Yeah but they can improve that

feral viper
#

Sure. But there's a lot of other things to improve too

dim reef
#

It's been like 20 years. They gotta do something if they're gonna have stuff like marriages in Starfield and Skyrim

feral viper
#

And considering they constantly want to try reinventing the wheel... Not much time to imprive

livid ingot
#

If clipping can be solved in a way video games can take advantage of, maybe we'd see more physical contact

oblique trench
#

How is everybody today

livid ingot
#

There was a pretty neat paper recently which solved clipping (specifically in the case of simulating clothing for the design industry)

feral viper
feral viper
#

But I don't expect to see them implemented in games for a decade yet.

dim reef
pulsar root
livid ingot
feral viper
# pulsar root Feel better dude.

Second time I've had it. Which on the plus side, allowed me to identify I needed to get a test early.

On the down side... It's worse the second time. Don't be like me, kids, keep up on those boosters

pulsar root
dim reef
#

It's definitely doable. Even Star Wars The Old Republic with all It's jank managed to have kiss animations

#

I mean okay some it doesn't line up the best but most of it works

feral viper
#

There's a reason most games limit those sorts of interactions to carefully scripted cutscenes.

It's DOABLE, but tricky on the fly

dim reef
#

They do have scripted sequences. They just need to have more animations for them

#

Starfield's intro has some really good scripted animations.
Which goes downhill after the first 5 minutes

feral viper
#

Yeeeeah... Such a strong start...

dim reef
#

I was legit impressed how good the animations were in the intro

#

Then the game actually starts and I was like yup.. there we go

#

that's the janky animation quality i missed

#

Now to Starfield's credit the facial animations were a big improvement over Skyrim and FO4. Not industry standard but still pretty decent

feral viper
#

I haven't done animation since highschool tech-ed in 2003, so I can't directly comment on the difficulty in doing them in a modern context.

But there is catching up to do, still.

dim reef
noble verge
dim reef
noble verge
#

As far as I know, Oblivion remastered is the first time that Nexus ever folded on it.

dim reef
#

Nah they've folded before quite a lot of times for things like these

#

Spiderman 2 comes to mind

#

It really was such a nothingburger situation just like any controversy surrounding that particular topic

noble verge
#

If you're talking about the "non-newtonian" mod, I'm pretty sure Nexus banned it and never let it back in.

#

Gamebanana and Moddb were just as dilligent at keeping it out.

dim reef
#

Nah there was another one they caved about. It was all over on reddit

#

I think on Nexus's end they should've just not done anything because those people specifically want a discourse and this just gives them one.
It's why Bethesda themselves simply ignore them

#

A week or two passes and everyone forgets about it anyway

noble verge
#

I think it's primarily because if Nexus folds and lets a controversial mod stay up, the anti side will get bored of complaining about something that doesn't affect them and will go back to the game their way, whereas if Nexus stands their ground banning a mod, the pro-mod side will download the mod from another site and then go back to playing the game their way.

feral viper
#

Actually, nah... That's going to start a fire...

nimble pond
#

One thing I can criticize, I was a disappointed with how bland the design was with some of the creatures (deer, bunnies, wolves, chickens). Like it's supposed to have fantasy elements in there. Can we not make these creatures to be more interesting? They ain't got be alien, but just look and act different. I want to approach these beasts and not know what to think of them at first, have to learn about them, are they friendly or foe, what kind of attacks might they hit me with. It'd be cool too if more of these animals had more magic attacks. And I've brought it up before, but also mixing that up with the day/night cycle and weather, some predators only active at night or more aggressive, things like that.

trail dust
#

everything doesnt have to be high fantasy

tardy tiger
#

I swear I recall Chaurus spawning in Hjaalmarch's swamps but I can't remember if it's a mod or not

trail dust
#

yeah we all run into issues like that LUL

pulsar root
#

sounds unlikely to be vanilla skyrim, maybe a mod.

feral viper
#

If it's mundane, it is boring. If it's boring, it is wrong.

noble verge
#

Unpleasant surprise when doing the horn quest at low level.

noble verge
#

Not just Chaurus, but specifically Chaurus Reapers.

trail dust
feral viper
#

It was more a reference to a longstanding opinion of the lore Community.

#

At least, one that was still standing when I left it, anyway.

#

Though, I think Morrowind is a prime example of how you can make the spectacular mundane, and create something entirely unique with it in the process.

Oblivion and Skyrim simply lack the same charm, because they lean too hard on the mundane. To the point where it almost seems like they resent the spectacular.

pulsar root
dim reef
#

I hope there's more non hostile animals like the foxes and deers

#

Scribs too but i don't think they're around anymore

eager remnant
#

The imagination and creativity of creature design in Starfield is the best stuff they've done since Morrowind. This gives me hope that some of that may carry over to TES6.

night ember
#

wheel of time, wow, and dnd are very funny in that regard

feral viper
#

I... Very much disagree.

TES is a slipshod, poorly put together setting that throws things at the wall that only give the illusion of depth or thoughtfulness, but which scratch away at the slightest effort to reveal a staggering lack of cohesion or focus.

#

This issue is made evident by the fact that every single new release in the franchise, for the last 20 years, has sent the Lore Community into a spiral trying to figure how to cram the misshapen puzzle pieces into the already assembled puzzle. And nothing ever lines up.

night ember
# feral viper This issue is made evident by the fact that every single new release in the fran...

I mean there's stuff like the planes of oblivion or skyrim's new religion, but those are only scrutinized because they're couched in a real place that actually feels like a history instead of the tastes of a bunch of nerds mashed together. The elder scrolls world literally has an overall thematic throughline that's intertwined with the metaphysics of the world, and multiple eras with their own appropriate sensibilities and tones.

#

whereas wow is like "man you thought those guys were gods? check out these frickin epic dudes who eat planets! make sure to memorize all their names!" it's so transparently for the neuroses of their audience instead of anything remotely thoughtful or interesting. curious what you see those settings having over tes

feral viper
#

Wheel of time, is a decent enough story, though I wouldn't rank it in the top 10.

WoW is. It's fine. It's not great, and it has a lot of just idiotic problems (Illidan) and has been hampered by 3 waves of major retcons now. But it's mildly coherent, of cluttered.

D&D, depends entirely on the setting. Forgotten Realms is fantastic, both on the micro and the macro scale. It's able to be played and enjoyed by people with essentially no knowledge of the setting, but also rewards those who actively dig into it. And it's got enough to dig into, that you can specialise your knowledge.

Warhammer is in a similar boat, both for Fantasy and 40k. Though it's also got some major problems stemming from two main sources: Corporate Meddling, and Matt Ward.

#

TES is a setting that has mostly superficial, one not cultures and identities, which conceal haphazard and poorly thought out foundational interactions that ultimately don't add up to anything.

It takes the 'You need to know everything' top heavy approach of WoW, and mixes it with the desire to dig deeper that more developed settings like FR and Warhammer have, but then doesn't actually give you any real payoffs.

It's cultures are superficial. It's mythology is a jumbled mess. It's metaphysics are unrefined at best, explicitly contradictory at worst (Ithelia).

#

It is a setting set up with the illusion that there is more to learn, more to understand, more to discover.

But that promise isn't ever really realised.

#

I'll highlight a specific example of this problem...

The Dragonblood.

night ember
# feral viper Wheel of time, is a decent enough story, though I wouldn't rank it in the top 10...

no idea how forgotten realms is anything besides every gen x nerds taste thrown into a game. Go fight vampires or cthulu guys with no depth, why not. For all the directions the elder scrolls goes, every piece of it ultimately goes back to a dream built to discover love. I think the cultures are more believable as systems people would actually live under and evolve than any other setting. Any kind of debate you're seeing is because unlike those other worlds, the elder scrolls is actually about something and is willing to deal with history in a realistic way. What is there to discuss in forgotten realms besides will you fight the giant eyeball or the evil corrupt king.

#

and the metaphyiscs for that are clearly just they wanted to have a hell world or a weird world and now that's a different plane. Planescape Torment is a great game but it's because of brilliant writing. Skyrim dialogue is made for the lowest common denominator and it still has more interesting lore because it's a place built by people who understand history, not just the lord of the rings.

feral viper
#

First, it was introduced as a particular characteristic of the ruling dynasties of Cyrodiil, linked to Alessia, and tied to the Covenant of Akatosh.

Then, they tied it to the Birds and Dragonborn, and said still linked it to Alessia somehow.

But then they introduced Miraak as the first, rendering the association with Alessia irrelevant.

On top of that, we have a source that explicitly tells us that it's not hereditary. But it used Alessia as the point of origin to make that claim, a point of origin we know is wrong. On top of that, literally every Dragonborn with known parentage has had a Dragonborn parent.

So what is it? We don't actually know, because what we are shown and what we are told contradict in nonsensical ways.

#

Merish ages have a similar problem with that. Every time we're told how long Elves live, and compare it against known ages of Elves, the numbers don't line up.

Because no one is actually paying attention on the writing end.

night ember
# feral viper First, it was introduced as a particular characteristic of the ruling dynasties ...

I haven't played dragonborn yet but the association with alessia was clearly deeply intertwined with the religion of cyrodiil, I can very easily see how her being dragonborn would be transformed into imperial propaganda that only the royal family has that privilege. To me that is interesting, because it reflects a similar thing we've seen in reality in regards to divine heirs and how they influence society. A lot of your dissatisfaction seems to come from the elder scrolls not following clearly defined rules, but part of the appeal of TES is like real life, we are just a part of nature and trying to figure it out instead of having some omnipotent objective viewpoint of events. Pretty sure all races can extend their lifespan via magic and that goes triple for elves.

#

regardless I'm not denying skyrim has plot holes, I'm just saying that you can go that route with anything. What's more important is what a setting has, and the elder scrolls just has so much more going on and is so much more immersive because of it.

#

I mean ithelia is dumb but it's relegated to an mmo written by quirk chunguses, the illithids are a comical bastardization of lovecraft and are integral to that world

feral viper
#

And as someone who has gotten very deep into multiple settings, TES included, I can confidently say... It really doesn't.

Every single empire, species, and abomination in Forgotten Realms has as much lore as TES does in total.

#

BG3, for instance, only gives you footnotes on the Illithids. What they are, where they came from, and what happened to them

night ember
#

please give me an example. There's also a difference between quality and quantity, I'm sure forgotten realms has the latter

feral viper
#

Well, I gave you two examples of how TES fails.

How about an example of where Forgotten Realms succeeds. Ever learn why it's called The Forgotten Realms?

night ember
#

the answer I'm seeing is some corny storybook meta garbage about how they forgot about earth

noble verge
#

Take Sovngarde, I felt from the start that "it's just Nords dreaming of what they wish to be their afterlife" was a spectacularly unsatisfying explanation.

night ember
pulsar root
feral viper
#

The Forgotten Realms are named as such, because they are at least some of the realms of myth in our own world.

Our universe exists in D&D, as its own Crystal Sphere, ruled by generally capricious gods that don't really interact that much, and inhabited by Humans who know nothing of The Craft.

In the distant past, the first great Human Empire on Toril, known as the Imaskir, opened portals to many other worlds in order to deal with a population shortage following a divine plague. One of those worlds was Earth (though the Batraachi had been here first, thousands of years earlier). They gathered slaves from the populations of Egypt and Mesopotamia, and brought them back to Imaskir.

A whole bunch of other stuff ended up happening after that, including a gods war, but...

noble verge
feral viper
#

The descendants of these slaves are the Mulhorandi and Untheri peoples.

night ember
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I'm sorry bro but that is exactly the type of lame junk that I'm talking about. Just fantasy nonsense. Not connected to any way humans interact or view themselves with a dash of stargate on top. Bro pulled out the avengers endgame power when everyone on his home planet got sick, very interesting.

feral viper
#

And you think TES is any different?

I mean, hell. The whole Godhead idea is just Kabbalah.

night ember
#

yeah that's a real religious concept, not just power scaling

feral viper
#

Well, Real and Religious don't belong together...

night ember
#

tell that to human society and the city you live in. It was inspired by a temple complex lol

feral viper
#

Yup and we have outgrown it, just like we outgrow diapers.

noble verge
#

I can't take FR seriously after WOTC tried to upend the entire setting for 4e then walked everything back for 5e as if the changes of 4e were just a bad dream.

feral viper
#

Still, on the whole, there's way better, way deeper, and way more refined stuff in FR than there is in TES.

It was moving in the right direction for a few years, but none of the right lessons were learned from Morrowind..

#

Because Oblivion?

night ember
# feral viper Yup and we have outgrown it, just like we outgrow diapers.

even if that's true its definitely not how any pre-modern society understood it (the time these games are set), and even today its responsible for our language, our ethics etc. I can imagine the writers of some of these settings share your perspective, and thus could not successfully intertwine it with their history the same way kirkbride was able to do. I mean really any writer, fictional or otherwise, who tries to separate religion from the human experience is a midwit who will never create a believable setting.

feral viper
#

I never said to seperate religion from the cultural experiences of the setting.

I'm an atheist, sure, but I'm also an anthropologist, and I know the impact that religion has had on the development of human thought.

night ember
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so you should also understand that these gods might as well have been memetically real, and any worthwhile fantasy is going to grapple with that idea. DND and wow try to go the science route and fail spectacularly, by making the religious view of the world "real" TES has so much more to say about what we believe and how we think.

feral viper
#

But there is a functional difference when you look at a world where it remains in question whether or not the supernatural exists.

In a world where gods are explicit, and magic is real, you can't just take real-world concepts wholesale.

feral viper
night ember
#

I imagine they're literally powered by belief or some other tripe

primal torrent
#

Friendly reminder that the discussion of real world religion/politics is not allowed per the server #rules

night ember
primal torrent
#

The rules of the Discord server do not exactly pertain to the development or writing of games. These are just guidelines as we aim to keep community discussions productive and friendly.

noble verge
feral viper
#

Again, very deep lore, but Gods are birthed and shaped by the populations they are bound to.

Of the remaining species, only one retains the ability, because they remain so fractured they never cohesively developed a concept of sufficient power to bind them all. It's one of the fish people, can't remember which...

The rest are the direct reflection of the thoughts and beliefs of their 'followers' (it's more intimately connected than that) as a byproduct of the Spellweavers accidental creation of the Astral Plane.

But, because of the nature of the Astral Plane, once a species believes a god into existence, and once they believe they were created by that God, the atemporal nature of that plane makes it so.

Effectively rewriting reality to enforce the belief of those who birthed the god in the first place.

night ember
night ember
feral viper
#

There are at least 4 species who actively survive and remember before the beginning of this process, and the creation of the Astral Plane.

The Abeolith, the Vaati, the Spellweavers, and the Le'Shay.

#

Conveniently, all species who have no gods.

night ember
#

it's a clunky way of making religion scientific so the religious-averse authors can still comfortably include it in their work

primal torrent
feral viper
#

It's a way of avoiding the logical inconsistencies of standard religious ideas.

It's improving on the failures of religion, by actually giving explanations rather than just denouncing questioning the holes.

#

And this is something that TES unilaterally fails at.

It doesn't give logical structures and clear lines of reasoning for how things work. It just obfuscates it with more and more layers of 'Unreliable Narrator', using it as a crutch to hide behind.

#

And when it DOES give clear and unambiguous information...

Well, it never actually matches up to what we see. Elven lifespans, for instance.

night ember
# feral viper It's a way of avoiding the logical inconsistencies of standard religious ideas. ...

and here we return to the critical flaw with these worlds. Fixing the flaws in intrinsic human behavior to make things more abstractly "satisfying". The entire point of religion is you believe in something that's not real and that belief unites your group. It is for that exact reason that TES succeeds where all this slop fails, it wants to be a real place like our own world and not an 80s geeks fantasy where his religious parents don't oppress him and he can fight cthulu.

feral viper
#

Religion is not intrinsic human behaviour.

The search for understanding is.

Religion is simply one mechanism we have used over the millennia to pursue that understanding.

#

Whether one thinks it was a valuable mechanism is a whole other topic, and not one for here.

#

Science, Spirituality (a precursor and competitor to religion) and Solipsism are all other competing mechanisms

night ember
#

huge cope tbh, if you think religion is just about understanding you're ignoring all the ways it facilitates society. It's basically what society is built on. Again the first cities were literally temple complexes that became more elaborate as tribute was given and tasks were assigned. By asking, what if there wan a super powerful science god who can rationally request people invest in smaller gods so they can get their power or some other DBZ type stuff you're just forgetting what makes people human.

#

and it's just outright less interesting imo

feral viper
#

Sure, the last two centuries of anthropology and explaining the complexities of human development and interaction are a huge cope.

night ember
#

as somebody taking an anthro class right now, they got some blind spots I'll tell you that much. Probably a lack of interdisciplinary thought.

feral viper
#

And as someone with a degree in in it, I can tell you that those aren't blind spots. They are well established principles derived from literal centuries of trial and error in establishing reliable results.

night ember
#

like how is spirituality a competitor to religion? religion is spirituality given hierarchy and structure, a key building block of society

feral viper
#

You just explained it.

Spirituality, given an individual and personal emphasis outside of structured hierarchies, has been the cornerstone of MOST human societies.

You only see the development for structure and hierarchy when you combine spirituality with resource consolidation, and the rise of large populations.

And city-societies make up less than a quarter of all human societies through history.

#

But this is all getting wildly off topic.

#

Point being, fine, if you think TES is still deep and thoughtful, you do you.

I disagree.

#

But saying my true thoughts on the setting at this point would get the mods more agitated than they are already

night ember
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ok yes so religion is the precursor to anything beyond dirt hole tier.

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I dunno so much of modern history and anthro is obsessed with finding exceptions to the rules and all they find out is that there are clearly connections between these ideas and increased growth and prosperity lol

feral viper
#

Literally nothing you just said was true.

night ember
#

mods can relax I'll stop lol. this was fun.

stark flower
#

Hey guys, let's move back to the games, I understand how it ties in, but we should not be discussing real world ideologies.

primal torrent
#

No one is agitated at the discussion, we just ask that it follow server rules and remain respectful and on topic of Elder Scrolls.

feral viper
#

Point being, TES as a setting doesn't actually reward digging into it. It presents surface level worldbuilding, with the promise of deeper stuff, and never delivers.

Whether you like the deeper stuff in other settings or not, at least it's there.

night ember
feral viper
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It feels like discovering a few burnt scraps of a library after a fire, with no idea what 2 letter excerpt goes with anything else

#

Thank Vehk Bethesda still knows how to tinker with games, because their worldbuilding chops haven't been there for two decades.

noble verge
#

I think it's been doing pretty well in terms of worldbuilding. Even as far forward as Skyrim, a lot of the old metaphysical stuff, both in-game and out-of-game, remains relevant even if it's a bit behind the curtain. Stuff like the Death of the Earth Bones, the roles of the Towers, texts like the Arcturian Heresy, the question of whether different cultural depictions of gods are in fact the same god through different lenses or in fact separate and distinct beings, all are still relevant. Heck, I still consider it wild that Skyrim put part of one of Kirkbride's Obscure Texts into the game.

I've also really liked ESO because with just one text, it conveyed just how vast Oblivion actually is and how much more complicated it is than the sixteen planes that it has often been viewed as.

#

Nowadays I find my biggest disappointment with Skyrim is from how hard ESO spoiled me on the scale of Blackreach.

feral viper
# noble verge I think it's been doing pretty well in terms of worldbuilding. Even as far forw...

The problem is... What are the Earthbones? Sources differ.

What do the Towers do? Sources differ.

Bethesda uses Unreliable Narrator as an easy out to just throw things at the wall, with none of it piecing together coherently.

Look at the Velothi Exodus. We've got various sources placing it in the Dawn, in the Early Merethic, the Late Merethic, and even in the Early 1st (which is utter nonsense, chronologically, but thanks Brothers of Strife).

It's very clear that they don't have an answer to how any of this fits together, which is why none of the stories or explanations for coherently.

#

Of course, when Bethesda DOES give us clear answers, we get nonsense like Legends and the Great War.

#

And that's not just a TES problem. Starfield is another great example of it, with what should be a well defined history being a muddied mess, and an overreliance on 'Both Sides'ing the conflict stories to fabricate drama even though it doesn't make a lick of sense.

And that's without getting into the Unity and that barrel of gibberish.

pulsar root
#

Game scale tends to do that, but I can understand what you mean

feral viper
#

At least their gameplay has ups AND downs.

Worldbuilding has basically been all down since Oblivion launched.

#

I should say, in terms of setting.

In terms of level and environment design, modern Bethesda is in a league of its own.

Except for when they don't do that, and use crude progen instead...

noble verge
#

And while many of these pieces of lore were originally posted outside of the games, several of them, such as The Monomyth and From the Many-Headed Talos, were later incorporated into the games.

feral viper
#

That's not quite true. MOST of the sources we have on these things come from other writers, who have taken what Kirkbride did originally and expanded on them.

ESO especially, since Bethesda has basically just tried to avoid anything more complicated than 'Big dragon mean'.

#

Part of the problem is, Kirkbride was vague and evasive. And despite promising for years now to clearly lay out what his vision was, he still hasn't done it.

And honestly, I don't think he will, of should. But that's a whole other matter.

#

Just in ESO alone, for instance, we have 3 seperate references to what the Earthbones are, and they all contradict.

And we have 2 seperate references to Towers and what they do, and they don't line up with eachother. And if you add Nu-Mantia, and the Novels, that takes us up to 4

#

And the list goes on.

Because no one actually knows. So everyone is free to just throw whatever into the game and no one can really argue against it.

Which creates an unfocused hodgepodge of ideas that don't ultimately fit together coherently.

#

To beat a dead horse, again a prime example of this is Elves and how long they live.

We now have 3 seperate times of Devs telling us that Elves live, on average, 100-200. 300 is the upper limit, and anything older is magic.

And yet, almost every Elf we can actually give an age to, is OVER 200. Most of those over 200 are still quite healthy.

The only way to make this work, is if Magical Life Extension is incredibly mundane and easy to access, or Elves regularly make it to Centenarian ages without I'll effects.

Or, no one is actually paying any attention, and everyone is just left to do whatever.

#

Bethesda doesn't know (or seemingly care) Kirkbride doesn't have creative control so his opinion is largely irrelevant, and what we do get is just... Not coherent enough to be useful, even when it's momentarily interesting.

#

And given that this is a problem that has become evident across Bethesda's IPs, it's clear it's not a deliberate artistic choice for one setting.

#

So, rather than drag this on indefinitely...

In closing, I don't think Bethesda deserves it's worldbuilding accolades. It earned them for Morrowind, and never showed that it could keep that up. Since Morrowind, they have consistently shown that they are unable to match that quality, let alone maintain it to any degree.

Bethesda has great accomplishments otherwise, and there's still a lot to praise. But their worldbuilding isn't deserving of the reputation of has.

trail dust
# feral viper The problem is... What are the Earthbones? Sources differ. What do the Towers d...

If they didnt use unrealiable narrative then they couldnt have books spread out in the game like they do now. It adds to the exploration when you try to explore lore, in the game. As it means you have to do some detective work to understand the situation. it makes for better lore.
And a more normal way of telling it.
Its also so well done in the civil war in skyrim that a big portion of the fandom went "its badly written" then fell for the empire propaganda. Which is both ironic and funny. Without unrealiable narrator that would not happen.

Sure you can only look at one aspect of it, which is that it gives bethesda a way out. But you would have to do it in bad faith and ignore every single other aspect of what it brings to the lore and games.

#

You are aware of other lore franchises so im surprised youre so against it. The whole dwemer lore and exploration, in skyrim, wouldnt be interresting if was laid out plain and simple

pulsar root
#

Relying too much on unreliable narrator isn't really interesting world building, Dwemer fate not withstanding.

noble verge
#

I disagree, I've always found unreliable- or more accurately constrained by in-universe ignorance- narrators to be a lot more interesting than simply being told something directly from the writer.

pulsar root
#

When there's so much of it, there is no point to even care about it. its fine to do it in moderation but doing it constantly won't make anyone care. I'm not asking to know everything but vagueness for the sake of vagueness is far from interesting.

noble verge
#

The thing with TES is that very much of its lore is taken from in-universe sources- almost entirely from the mortal denizens of a single continent.

What exactly do you want? Do you wish for the devs and writers to dispense with the "answering questions from the perspective of in-universe characters" tradition and provide explanations and answers directly?

mint plume
#

I want to be able to bring my Xbox console avatars over to the PC version. Not playing on console any more, I've been playing on consoles since they all came out, lol, yes I'm old..very old. Started gaming on pc last year and I really like it. It's a whole new world in Tamriel. 🙂

nimble pond
#

So since they got witches in-game already, allow them to be able to fly.. no brooms or vacuums though.

wide garnet
jade plover
jade plover
noble verge
#

From what I've seen, it's much less important for a videogame setting like TES and Dragon Age to lay all the objective facts on the table than it is for a tabletop settings like D&D, because the former places the responsibility of crafting and running the adventure in the hands of the developers, while the latter places much of that responsibility in the hands of a DM.

#

In D&D, it's expected to have an informed DM who understands how things work on every level. In a videogame, there's no need to provide the same level of objective information to the customer.

jade plover
feral viper
#

With my post-covid clarity, I will refrain from commenting on the bad story and lore any more

#

I'll stick with gameplay, the aspect of the games that still have value.

pulsar root
feral viper
#

With practical topics in mind...

Played some of the new Ninja Gaiden over the weekend, and it confirmed 2 things to me.

1: I am clearly too old and too slow for that style of game now.

2: the use of Radial Quick-menus to allow you to pick and activate options in combat, with a slow-time mechanism, is a great way of expanding gameplay options without breaking up pacing.

nimble pond
#

I was always too drunk for Ninja Gaiden 😅

feral viper
#

I was never GOOD at them, but even at the time of Nier I could at least function in those more high-octane action games.

Not any more.

#

But it does at least confirm the concept, that the Radial Menus are good way to add options with limited inputs, without resorting to clunky menu-hopping that takes you out of what's going on (which is what all Bethesda games do).

It's not the first, of course. DooM2016, and Dragon Age Inquisition already showed this off a long time ago. But it's certainly the fastest game to do so.

#

And if it works in Ninja Gaiden, it'll work at any speed.

#

Two Radial Menus, linked to L-Bumber/Alt and R-Bumber/Ctrl, each with 10 slots that could accommodate spells, potions, powers, of special actions, would dramatically increase the range of potential options for players, as well as customisation in character builds and identity.

With virtually zero negative impact on pacing or restriction of inputs

dim reef
#

TES VI will be good

feral viper
#

I don't think Bethesda has ever made a BAD game.

So it will, at least, be good.

dim reef
feral viper
#

Are both decent to good. Not great, sure, but goodm

noble verge
dim reef
#

we got the good ol' fashioned "everything lined up at the bottom of the screen"

noble verge
#

Aside from the interesting metaphysical implications of the explanation Kirkbride pointed to which presents an interesting parallel to Alduin, it also implies that Kagrenac's project went almost exactly as planned, and the only hitch was that the Heart was never installed into the completed Numidium, leaving it lifeless.

dim reef
#

76 launched bad but is by far one of their best games now

#

Yeah but Starfield is still the same

#

I don’t want them to abandon it. I want really ambitious DLC

#

Starfield didn't launch bad. It was just mediocre

feral viper
#

Because... Woof.

dim reef
feral viper
#

Literally every game Bethesda has ever made > Oblivion.

#

And im including Legends in there, as despite my disdain for it's story, it was at least a decent card game.

feral viper
#

That said, despite Oblivion not doing anything well, it was it's self totally serviceable and playable. So I can't in good conscience give it less than a 5/10.

Therefore, even IT, isn't bad.

eager remnant
feral viper
#

I am trying to be more nice.

livid ingot
#

Who are you and what have you done to Terical??

feral viper
nimble pond
pulsar root
nimble pond
#

Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde

green rapids
#

Playing Skyrim on survival mode got me thinking; what if there was hidden conditions for certain events or quests? Lets say, certain interactions were triggered by sleeping at an inn, or sitting at a table and grabbing a drink, there could even be more "convoluted" conditions. Certain things only happened when specific characters were present at the inn, at various times of day, your lvl in different skills, it could be anything. Imagine if they pursued that idea how many different unique stories and experiences people would have. Now thats an idea that I would wish for the next elder scrolls.

dim reef
#

Doesn't that kind of stuff already happen? Like with the dark brotherhood questline

green rapids
# dim reef Doesn't that kind of stuff already happen? Like with the dark brotherhood questl...

In a small scale yes. The dark brotherhood questline isnt like a little know rare event with a cryptic condition.
I'm thinking more like that it would be very engaging if there were a wider scope of these types of events, they wouldt have to necessarily be grand in scale, but having several lesser or medium events/quests tied to role-playing elements would go a long way to create unique stories for the players.

dim reef
#

There's also some other examples of this. If you sleep at that one inn where Tiber Septim stayed a ghost will appear

green rapids
dim reef
#

I think there are a couple more. The ones i mentioned i remember off the top of my head. Lemme look for some more

green rapids
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If so, then im glad, because it shows signs that this is something the developers have though of already. That it is an idea that they might consider developing further

dim reef
#

Oh there's also Sanguine's quest. That counts right?

green rapids
#

Well, in its ultimate form id imagine it being more like; you are an argonian who have worked your way up in the ranks of the mages guild, which you only could do because you are proficient with 3 schools of magic, a certain event happens to you when you make a campfire underneath a full moon. As a wild example

#

Ofc, I can imagine having a whole bunch of these specific parameters actually have an effect on your playthrough would require a lot of resources

nimble pond
# nimble pond Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde

Actually. That's be fun. Instead of only beast disease transformations. Let's have an alchemy approach, like that. Different look, but still you, just like super-strength.

dim reef
#

I'm looking forward to new companions the most. ES is a lot more diverse in terms of races so it's really cool to imagine what they might do

#

Especially with all the improvements FO4 and Starfield made in that regard I'd say it'd be fantastic

feral viper
nimble pond
trail dust
jade plover
noble verge
#

The Ultimate Heist was basically a Thief: The Dark Project mission crammed into a TES game. And I mean that in the most flattering way possible.

jade plover
#

I have another idea for quests approach. It would be interesting if we have more stuff from books and journals actually existing in the game. It will make peoole explore the world more. For example you found a book with a legend about a dwemer ruins in some spot. And instead of giving you quest or map mark that book would just do nothing. But if player will try to find a spot described in a book there will be a hidden door ot sonething. This would tie lore to gameplay more than bethesda usually does

#

I mean i want more things like Lost Legends from skyrim

#

But more detailed so players could found a place using only text from the book

slow loom
#

It's not a bad idea having it work that way for some quests or just find it through natural exploration. But I think in most cases people will open the book then close it to see if it gives a skill up or quest. People will end up complaining about there being too little content if you start hiding it all.

#

We all want there to be secrets but we also don't want it so well hidden that we never find it. If you don't show it, it doesn't exist for most players.

jade plover
#

Its like if you keep all skyrim quests, but additionaly to it have books with lore to certain points of interests that players can use to find them

slow loom
#

I get you want some discovery and reason to invest in the world and lore. But we are at the stage where we have one puzzle and they are all the same.

#

It's like trying to write a book about quantum mechanics when you are making a book for two year olds.

#

I'm not against your idea at all. I'm just saying it's quite at odds of where we are at in terms of game design.

jade plover
jade plover
slow loom
#

Some games sure.

night ember
dim reef
#

Oblivion is good on the surface. It's when you dig deeper that things start falling apart

#

Like the quests are fun and engaging but do they make sense or have a consistent tone? Nope

#

It's a mess but a good mess. One that i love

night ember
# feral viper So, rather than drag this on indefinitely... In closing, I don't think Bethesda...

even knowing TES6 will probably be kinda stupid and watered down, the worldbuilding will still be leagues better because once you provide any kind of omnipotence to the narrative you are ultimately copping out of writing anything meaningful in regards to history or culture. Even if some of its contradictions are driven by corporate streamlining it will never be dumb worthless slop like basically every other fantasy world.

night ember
dim reef
#

Not really. Both Morrowind and Skyrim are leagues ahead of Oblivion in terms of consistency

#

And world building

night ember
#

oblivion has better rpg mechanics, skyrim has more surface lifestyle stuff

dim reef
#

Oblivion technically has more mechanics except most of those mechanics suck.
Skyrim's mechanics work infinitely better

night ember
#

I agree on a surface level but skyrim is just so dumb lol. every line of dialogue is dumb every questline is dumb, it's so 2011 call of duty it's hilarious. I appreciate the dwemer ruins and the cities are beautiful but everything is thematically and metaphysically lobotomized.

dim reef
#

Most of Oblivion's positives are surface level shenanigans. Once you actually engage with them more you realize how flawed the game is

night ember
dim reef
#

Destruction magic sucked in Oblivion as well. That's been consistently bad

night ember
#

I could do way more damage at higher levels and actually make spells, and the mages guild was just so much better in general

dim reef
#

Magic in general was always bad. Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim. All of them

night ember
#

then it's extra bad in skyrim

dim reef
#

Oblivion's mage guild questline is especially terrible

#

I'd rather replay Arena than do that questline again

night ember
#

it is so much better than skyrims imo, especially in regards to the structure. skyrim is just another woah powerful object... we cant handle this power. like this game is written for legit morons it's unreal.

dim reef
#

I hate it. I find pretty much everything in Skyrim a MASSIVE improvement over Oblivion

night ember
#

dont even get me started on the main quest or the civil war lol. oblivions was short and kinda cheap but it had agency and soul

dim reef
#

Especially the writing. Skyrim's writing is leagues ahead of Oblivion

#

The only positive i can give vanilla oblivion is Martin. He's genuinely well written

#

The dlcs are good thankfully. Both shivering isles and knights of nine are well written

night ember
# dim reef The dlcs are good thankfully. Both shivering isles and knights of nine are well ...

I feel like there were so many more complex characters in oblivion. Like the schizo who you can gaslight or not, the conflicted argonian bartender. When it comes to the physical manifestation of lore it kinda blows, but there's still some of that morrowind depth. Especially in knights of the nine - that is just miles above anything I've seen in skyrim. That game could never have something like the song of pelinal lol. Shivering isles is corny garbage imo. le quirky twisted dark fantasy

dim reef
#

I don't think so. Most of everyone you mentioned i found unremarkable. They have one or two unique quirks but beyond that they're nothing.

night ember
#

that is still way more than hingadingadurgen I'm nice or hingadingadurgen I'm evil. like who are these jokers the voice acting feels worse than oblivion because instead of ren faire it's cw.

dim reef
#

Being clear cut evil and good aren't bad things if they're well written which Skyrim is. Oblivion isn't

#

The writing in the civil war alone is better than anything in Oblivion

night ember
#

I dunno man this is like the dumbest rpg I've ever played. like legitimately every line is designed to make a 40 IQ cod player get into the elder scrolls, its insipid. Every conversation about dragons in the main quest line is like pulling teeth. I think I've seen more nuance in DBZ.

dim reef
#

I felt Oblivion was the dumbest rpg i ever played. I still love it because it's such a big mess

#

It's like the Fallout 2 of ES to me. A complete and utter mess but still fun because of how messy it is

dim reef
#

TES VI needs to be like 96 metascore game

eager remnant
#

I prefer Oblivion's soundtrack over Skyrim;s soundtrack. Otherwise I think Skyrim is second only to Morrowind as the finest Elder Scrolls game ever made.

nimble pond
nimble pond
pulsar root
dim reef
feral viper
#

Cough Dark Brotherhood Cough.

feral viper
# dim reef TES VI needs to be like 96 metascore game

My first reaction would be 'Its not gonna'.

But then I consider how inflated review scores are, and how little standard there is behind them, so it may well get such a number. Not that such a score would mean anything

#

Personally, I don't think any Bethesda game warrants a 90. Though in the grand scheme of things, I think there are exceptionally few games that do.

#

Probably only like... Halo, Doom, ME2, Minecraft, and Dwarf Fortress...

dim reef
#

BG3 got 96 metascore. I don’t think TES VI will be as good as BG3

feral viper
#

I'd rate most Bethesda games in the mid 70s to low 80s.

Morrowind being the positive exception, which I'd put in the high 80s. And Oblivion the low exception, at a low 50s.

#

Though, anything below 50 is just poor. Mechanically problematic, visually clunky (for its time) and narratively incoherent.

And while Bethesda games do have their problems, none have been that bad.

dim reef
#

Good point

trail dust
#

id rate both skyrim and fallout 4 above 90, cause even if you completely disregard the mainquest. theres so much content, quests, great worldbuilding and places to explore that they surpass most games. I still dont get how fallout 4 is viewed as a mid game. far harbour is also some of their all time best work. the world is absolutely stacked with content and places. id give New Vegas above 90 on the main quests alone. but its a lot more empty

dim reef
#

Morrowind - 90
Oblivion - 75
Fallout 3 - 83
Skyrim - 80
Fallout 4 - 75
Fallout 76 - 50
Starfield - 60

trail dust
#

skyrim 80? lookUp

pulsar root
#

4.5 Skyrim, 4.5 Oblivion F04, 4(Due to setting) F03 is 3.9 Starfield 3.9 4.0 range. 76 3.3(Survival mechanics are annoying)

green rapids
# slow loom We all want there to be secrets but we also don't want it so well hidden that we...

Another reason for me bringing this subject up is that I love fromsoftware's approach to quests, how they in dark souls and elden ring arent afraid of keeping content from people. How convoluted it is to progress some of the npc's "storylines" in those games are pretty cryptic. The added sence of discovery and enthusiasm one gets from exploring aspects like this on your own, by just tumbeling over someting or going out from a page in a book is wonderful. Not it being a insane amount quest marker that just turns into a massive checklist of things to complete

pulsar root
#

The last series ES needs to look at is Dark Souls.

dim reef
#

I think FO3 is better than Skyrim

feral viper
#

I should note, the way I view ratings is similar to how I view grades.

Anything over a 90 is exemplary. It's only for games that have excelent execution, innovation, and refinement all combined. 100 doesn't technically exist in this sort of context.

80s are good. They represent well executed games with some minor failings, of games that do a good job to innovate. I tend to be more accommodating for poor execution with innovation, as it's hard to get something right on the first try.

70s are good.

60s are decent.

50s are competent.

Anything lower is when you start to get into just poorly made products that fail to execute even on tried and tested concepts.

#

100 would be a perfect game (doesn't exist, and will never exist) and. 0 would be a game that isn't even a game (may technically exist as a scam).

#

I will say this, as well.

I think Bethesda, and TES in particular, has 90 potential.

#

Even if ignoring the irredeemable setting, Skyrim has the foundation for a truely revolutionary fantasy RPG, especially when blended with other elements that Bethesda has explored in other games.

With the proper approach, and admittedly better refinement than we've seen from them in the past, they could take the pieces they mostly already have and make something truely genre defining.

#

So while I wouldn't rate any of their games in the 90th percentile, I do think they are one of the few studios that I can confidently say have the potential TO be there.

Most such revolutionary games are lightning in a bottle, and cannot be predicted. Bethesda, I think the lightning is already in the office. They just need to figure out how to get it in the bottle.

eager remnant
green rapids
# pulsar root The last series ES needs to look at is Dark Souls.

If I understand you correctly, your opinion is that there are absolutely no aspects of Dark Souls that Elder Scrolls could have drawn inspiration from?
That's a valid opinion.

The essence of my input is that I appreciate some of the design-philosophy surrounding those games.
It's my opinion that Elder Scrolls would have benefited from adopting certain elements of them in a way that suits their format.

To be more confident in that some players won't experience everything from the game, but rather get unique experiences and create their own stories within the universe.
Then the question becomes, how would one do that in a fitting way for elder scrolls?

feral viper
pulsar root
#

Adding vagueness(The whole not giving you information about the setting outside of small amounts from random item drops in game) to a game thats already filled with vagueness is not a plus. There's plenty of discovery(Exploration to be more precise). Besides I don't want ES to turn into a soulslike. No thanks, I'd rather fight against that happening. I could go on but I've been on this subject enough and avoid Mods aiming their bazookas at me. 😉

feral viper
#

The only thing is dislike more that Souls games... Is New Vegas.

So I agree

feral viper
#

You know, relevant to this whole ratings thing... Randy Pitchford, a man I have no respect for what so ever, recently DID say something I agree with.

Gaming has yet to produce a true masterpiece. Gaming, as an industry, has no Citizen Kane, or Godfather, or Schindler's List.

As a medium, it's still very immature. Still learning what it can do and what it can explore.

#

But, out of the major studios (smaller ones still experiment, with some fantastic success) BGS is the only one that regularly still trys to explore that uncertainty with new ideas.

Everyone else just fits into simple, predictable marketability trends like they're Disney, never want to actually see where the medium can take them.

#

And that, combined with the tools they already have (even if I've yet to see them use them well) is part of why I DO think BGS is capable of something like a masterpiece.

Because they haven't lost the experimental spirit that pushes the envelope.

slow loom
#

I think gaming does have it's masterpieces but much more often it's ruined by incompetence or greed. Most movie directors can capture their vision perfectly with not many hiccups. On the other hand gaming has always been held back by the technology of the time and the budget of it's designers.

I think the first game ever made is a 10/10 because you have nothing else to compare it to thus making it the best of it's kind. But older games get judged harshly when compared to newer games so their ratings drop. We don't compare Citizen Kane to Marvel movies and say "Well the CGI isn't that great in Citizen Kane so Marvel movies are better.".

We get remakes and remasters of games to bring them up to modern standards. Movies don't often go down in ratings with the passage of time or become unwatchable due to new technology.

feral viper
#

And I think that last point is part of why I don't think we have had a masterpiece of gaming.

A masterpiece is timeless. Or as close to it as anything a human can make could be.

Video games, because of the nature of the medium, may not be able to BE a masterpiece. Their very existence as a Product Before Art (which, despite the vibe in gaming communities, is what games have ALWAYS been) combined with the interactive nature may ultimately disqualify them from such a title.

pulsar root
#

Even some GOTY games I just don't care for or I find flaws in them.

feral viper
#

Yeah. I can judge them based on the games from that year...

But if it's got easily identifiable flaws, it's instantly not a masterpiece.

#

Can still be the best thing that came out that year, though.

#

In general, I think the basic standard is:

'Will people be recommending this in 30, 50, 100 years?'.

The answer to every single game, is no.

pastel bison
feral viper
#

That one I may accept. Halo 3 is still amazing.

pastel bison
#

Terical I agree, as we evolve as a society our media including video games will evolve and yes they may be better than our predecessors- however the classics are classics for a reason- lightning in a bottle. Games like Halo 3, Quake, Diablo, Doom etc. You can feel the passion in the project, nowadays between the triple a flops and indieslop- the game industry is not what it once was

feral viper
#

I can still feel the passion in many projects. Even under all the overbearing corporate slaver whips.

pastel bison
#

Maybe I am too cynical xD

feral viper
#

Though it's somewhat ironic that I'm inclined to think Halo 3 will in fact hold up...

But id still give Halo CE a higher score on release.

dim reef
#

I personally found Halo 3 quite mid

feral viper
dim reef
#

Halo 2 was a near masterpiece and 3 was a downgrade in pretty much every aspect except maybe map design

pastel bison
#

You know Serana you are cooking

#

Halo 2 was my favorite

dim reef
#

Halo 4 i also loved. Easily my 2nd favorite after 2

feral viper
#

I'm pretty easy in Halo 4, 5 and Infinite...

But I do think that 3 is the 'best'. It took what wasdone before and refined it to a razor edge, even if it didn't do anything new or interesting it's self.

And this sort of gets into how I view Masterpieces, I guess.

#

The Mona Lisa didn't do anything new. DaVinci didn't pioneer anything with her.

But she was a perfection of his years of refinement and technique, even if she didn't include anything new.

#

A masterpiece, to me anyway, doesn't require innovation it's self

feral viper
#

Also, for those not in the know...

Grognard is an old French idiom meaning 'Grumbler', and originally used to refer to veterans of Napoleon's Imperial Army through the mid to late 1800s.

#

It's now a relatively old name for tabletop gamers that complain a lot, though I use it more generally.

dim reef
#

Speaking of Halo i hope ES6 has guns

livid ingot
#

Fun fact, the the Mona Lisa only became famous after it was stolen in the early 20th century. It was appreciated in the art world of course but its popularity and fame and household name status are all pretty recent

pulsar root
#

no guns. Crossbows, I accept.

dim reef
#

Fully Automatic Machine Crossbows then

#

with 80 round mags

feral viper
feral viper
dim reef
slow loom
#

Limitation breeds innovation. Gaming now has almost no limitation with developers all having access to the UE5 engine. So in many ways we have regressed with more reliance on making a game look pretty above all else. Older games are often much more complex in their systems and mechanics. This point remains true for the TES series as well.

If a new game system is invented then most games will adopt it and then any older game without it is seen as inferior and unplayable.

AI can make some of the best art any artist can make. But it's hard to call it art without a human hand involved.

pulsar root
#

Limitations still exist, which is called time

slow loom
#

That often leads to cutting corners not innovation.

feral viper
#

Time is the great limiter.

Nothing we ever do will stand it's test. Yet do, we shall continue anyway..

slow loom
#

With the rise of 16 bit game art, those games have a timeless aspect to them that will probably always be appreciated.

dim reef
#

We are still limited by tech. Even now large scale battles are hard to pull off

#

KCD2's sieges are the closest we got but even that's quite small

slow loom
#

Well thats where innovation comes in.

dim reef
#

Like the cutscenes have this massive force with seemingly hundreds of people then in gameplay there's like a couple dozen

slow loom
#

If games are art and art is timeless then games are timeless.

feral viper
#

Games CAN be art.

Though art definitely is not timeless. At least not inherently.

slow loom
#

Art often only ever goes up in price. I don't know of any instances where art suddenly became worth nothing. Rich people often invest in art because of this fact.

feral viper
#

Well, Fine Art. But Fine Art is just the original legal money laundering for rich people scheme. Before Crypto became a thing.

Most art, done at ground level, depreciates in financial value faster than a car. It's basically only ever worth what you were individually willing to pay for it from the artist directly.

Because we as a society don't actually value art.

night ember
feral viper
#

I ain't on my knees for Wild Hunt and New Vegas. Reddit would string me up.

pulsar root
#

To pull a Terical, I liked New Vegas but... I think its a bit overrated, treating it like the holy relic of Fallout feels..... far too much. Don't bite me Bethesda.

feral viper
#

It's more pleasant than anything I've said about New Vegas. So you should be safe

jade plover
jade plover
jade plover
jade plover
#

And people also have different taste. Even movies considered as "masterpieces" don't serve as a standart or the ideal to be achieved because people like different things

dim reef
#

Core gameplay wise Fallout 4 is just as much an rpg as any prior game. Only it's dialogue system is terrible

#

Also saying Fallout fans hate FO4 is wild. It's a small but loud minority of people that hate it

#

like FO2's main quest is just as goofy. So much so that even the game itself makes fun of it that people ignore the main quest

slow loom
#

I always thought the story and quests were a downgrade but most other things like the world and graphics are better. I cared so little for the main story that I only completed it on my 4th playthrough after forcing myself to focus it. I did like the intro of seeing the old world before the bombs drop where others didn't.

dim reef
#

I wish the intro was longer

slow loom
#

It served its purpose and the TV show satiated me in that regard for the most part.

dim reef
#

It didn't for me personally. You barely spend time with your family before the story kicks off.

slow loom
#

I'm just glad it exists at all. I dunno if more would've helped or how you would fit it in. Most people would just complain that the intro is 2 hours and you can't skip it.

dim reef
#

It's a general problem with most of their intros for me. They're too short

#

Skyrim's intro starts with a dragon attack and even that only lasts like 10 minutes max

#

You'd think an event that big would be given more build up

#

But no. 1 quest later you face another dragon and kill it right away

jade plover
slow loom
jade plover
dim reef
dim reef
slow loom
#

I think we call that cheesing the fight

dim reef
#

If dialogue was that essential, none of the ES games would be seen as rpgs. Their dialogue systems are very limited

#

Gameplay is just as important

dim reef
#

A better choice would've been to simply not make irileth that op

slow loom
#

It's hard to roleplay when your character already has a backstory and life plus voiced lines.

dim reef
#

Well that doesn't apply to Fallout anyway. Almost all of them have defined backstories

#

Except maybe 76. That has no backstory beyond being a 76 vault dweller

slow loom
#

They don't tell you who your character is, only the last thing you were doing.

dim reef
#

FO4 does the same

#

You were a soldier/lawyer with a family. That's all you get

#

The issue with 4 wasn't the backstory. It's how it was utilized

slow loom
#

It's all built for you with no need for input from the player.

#

Skyrim you are a prisoner but not told what for. FNV you are a courier with zero backstory besides that.

dim reef
#

Same as every other Fallout game. 4's issue is more how it uses it's backstory than the backstory itself

#

What. Courier has way more backstory

slow loom
#

Sure you got shot.

jade plover
dim reef
#

Way more than that

dim reef
slow loom
#

I think we have very different ideas of what a blank slate character is. Not surprised though.

dim reef
#

No. You're straight up ignoring his backstory.

#

The Courier

  • is from NCR territory
  • got the chip job from the hub
  • was the 6th courier of the job
  • previously blew up the divide by delivering a package to Hopeville
  • got shot
#

People at the time even hated Lonesome Road for adding more backstory

slow loom
#

Ok sure good point. But lets take Fallout 3 and 4s backstory. You get born and live your entire life in the vault which is mostly seen and then you leave. In 4 you get told how you fought in the war, have a house and family. Interacting with different items in the house gives you even more backstory. You have your entire life explained in those games where NV is, you did a few things in the past month and now here you are.

#

I can't go on if you can't see the difference.

dim reef
#

Interacting with the other objects in your house gives you dialogue but no backstory

#

It's the same

jade plover
dim reef
#

Pretty much. 4's issue is it utilized it's backstory poorly but you really don't get any more than NV

#

But this is moving too far away from ES so I'll stop

#

ES does handle it's blank slates way better. Leaving EVERYTHING vague

#

The closest we get is Skyrim explaining why you're a prisoner which the previous games didn't

slow loom
dim reef
#

That is the problem yes.
It's a personal story without any backstory

slow loom
#

It's not about how much the game takes your backstory into account. It's how much it lets you play as who you are in your head. It's hard to roleplay when you've been told too much about who you are.

dim reef
#

They don't give you enough backstory but they also want you to care about the backstory

#

That's 4's main problem. Not the backstory itself but the utilization

jade plover
slow loom
#

In that same sense you could say the platinum chip is a stand in for your son. Something to chase. But the chip has no real inherent feelings attached.

dim reef
#

That is also why people hated Lonesome Road

#

Starfield did handle backstories really well tho

#

I hope ES6 has the same trait system that lets you choose what you did before the game

slow loom
#

I'm not against a backstory but it can make it hard to roleplay when you feel semi locked into who you are.

dim reef
#

You can also do that. Simply don't choose a trait

bitter kestrel
#

Let's bring it back to Elder Scrolls please

feral viper
#

TES has generally shied away from Backstory, to the point of being nonsensical. The Dragonborn and HoK, for instance, seemingly spring fully formed from a rock a few minutes before the start of the game.

#

I do think some facilitation of a backstory would be a step forward, but I don't think the best approach has really been implemented wholesale yet.

Pre-Skyrim used Classes as part of attempting to do so (but brought other baggage with them) and Starfield had Certain Traits which activated backstory elements...

But neither really did quite well enough.

#

For TES specifically, I think a blend of the two is the best approach.

A Background that gives you small bonuses to some starting Skills, and a few Traits related to that backstory.

pulsar root
#

I prefer the more vague/openended start in an ES game then giving you an actual identity "A Prisonor" Kinda annoying now.

dim reef
#

I personally prefer fixed backstories rather than blank slates but i don't mind how ES handles it

#

All it needs is some flair. Some customizable personality. Sarcasm, Anger, Joy. The dialogues need to have emotion, they're way too neutral

pulsar root
#

Sure but if someone wants to roleplay as a certain person coming into "Whatever province game is placed in" I think BGS should try to support that.

feral viper
#

I agree, which is why I'm not keen on SPECIFIC backstories, but rather the ability to create some semblance of one if you want.

noble verge
#

Starfield and Oblivion Remastered both had character backgrounds.

I liked how Starfield did it because while it affected your starting stats it didn't constrain your progression as you level up

dim reef
#

Starfield easily did it the best. You can even mix and match backstories

feral viper
#

Yeah, Starfield was a great example of what could be done. You just need to integrate that into TES's format, and build on it.

frigid token
#

so they're just like.... putting ES6 on the backburner again for Fallout 5? Will we ever get this game tbh ? ! Do you think they aren't even really working on ES6 yet? -cries-

pulsar root
#

I assume you mean Todd's statement about Fallout games but he didn't say ES6 was being pushed behind.

quartz phoenix
wide garnet
#

@dim reef I’m doing a follow-up to something I wrote before:

Serana, after her first ballistic rush after consuming “Dovahkiin blood”, noticed that, for about a week or two, she didn’t feel either the need to feed or any damage from sunlight. Intrigued, she plans to try again, after creating a special sleeping draft.

feral viper
#

@eager remnant and I would very much disagree with that

#

It depends how you define an RPG, but unless you have an incredibly narrow definition that ultimately excludes many great RPGs, TES will be included in it.

pulsar root
#

RDR2 using Hunger hunting and foraging are survival mechanics not RPG elements.

feral viper
#

Yeah.

I've played with several definitions over the years, though a variation of one proposed by @eager remnant remains to favourite, and probably the single best in terms of the rules of a good definition.

#
  • An RPG is a game in which the outcome of any action is primarily determined by the abilities of the character taking the action, and not the abilities of the player who controls that character -
#

Nah. If it was, then most early RPG pioneers would be disqualified. As would many JRPGs, and practically the entirety of the ARPG subgenre.

#

RPGs are, at their core, whether you like it or not, about stat management.

Hell, even D&D didn't start off as a story driven game.

#

D&D, the grandaddy of RPGs, was a stat and loot builder for Wargame Characters. Your character's story, personality, and identity literally did not factor into its original design.

#

True, but you can't just redefine them to exclude huge chunks of the genre.

They evolve into subgenres.

slow loom
#

RPG is a very watered down term at this point.

feral viper
#

Even if you do include Player Input as a criteria (I suspect you mean like, 'Choice and Consequences' in stories and the like) then you still undermine your own argument.

Because not only do you suddenly make the foundations of CRPGs now not RPGs (early Ultima, Might and Magic, Quest for Glory, etc) but you now have the problem of trying to explain how Skyrim isn't an RPG, but Morrowind is.

When. Skyrim explicitly contains more of those choices than literally every TES before it combined.

feral viper
#

There's a reason why most credible universities have professors hand out some structured rules for how definitions work in your intro Critical Thinking class.

#

Because the general education system is super bad at teaching those sorts of basic fundamentals.

#

Typically the Cambridge Standard is used, which is along the lines of:

A definition expresses the essential characteristics of the grouping in such a way that all examples are included, while all non-examples are excluded, without the use of specific exceptions.

dim reef
#

RPG as a genre has gone through myriads of changes. Back in the 90s gameplay is what defined an rpg. Stats, mathematical calculations determining combat proficiency etc.
Now people will tell you dialogue and branching quest choices are what makes an rpg

#

It's become a very wide genre at this point that there's really no singular description for it

feral viper
#

That's why it needs a wide enough definition. Being a wide definition doesn't somehow make it not useful.

Mammal is a wide defintion, and yet it's incredibly useful.

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You can't define things by feels, or with an agenda. You can only define them systematically, by referencing core characteristics which are shared by ALL examples.

You can prefer subgenres of RPG over others, but that preference doesn't instantly disqualify them from the definition.

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It doesn't matter how much I hate choice driven narrative RPGs like New Vegas, or Disco Elysium. They're still RPGs, even if I think their focus makes them inherently worse games.

pulsar root
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The choices and consequences in TES could be improved upon if we're being honest. I can't say how much but... any improvement from how they work in Skyrim would be much desired.

feral viper
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I think that, by and large, Choices and Consequences are a lazy writing tool used to inject some forced drama into a story because the writer is incapable of actually writing a narrative that feels engaging and motivating.

So I'm not a fan of them in general. Though they can be done better or worse, depending on how they're used.

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But that still doesn't deal with the problem of the fact that;

There simply is no way to define RPG in such a way that would exclude Skyrim or Oblivion or ESO, but include Morrowind or Daggerfall..
So if you want to call Skyrim not an RPG, you HAVE to also say Morrowind isn't.

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And I don't think that's a hill anyone's about to die on.

noble verge
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I'd rather have choice and consequences than be railroaded at every step, especially if the writers want to take the TLOU2 or Spec Ops the Line route and shame you for following the rails.

livid ingot
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Well Skyrim did ditch classes, which are a important component of RPGs.

feral viper
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Not all RPGs.

livid ingot
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That goes back to the dependence upon the definition of RPG that we use

noble verge
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Different games did classes differently. For example, the Souls games treat classes as starting kits, while in Dungeon Siege, classes were merely descriptors based on the combat skills you opted to focus on.

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Fallout and SPECIAL system spinoffs like Lionheart also didn't use classes.

noble verge
pulsar root
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To me the classes system is very traditional and I usually find it acceptable in mmos specifically but I like the open endedness to chose what I want then be stuck to being a warrior who can't use any kind of magic(I go for the warrior mage in Fantasy).

I do think attributes are important though. Health, Stamina and Magicka are nice but Oblivion's Attribute system(Leveling them up always feels good granted I think the cap should of been increased to a higher cap) always feels good to me.

Fallout's Special system is good to but again its very limited max is 10.

noble verge
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I've said this before but I want an RPG that treats a murderhobo crashout as a valid narrative.

feral viper
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You end up falling into a problem where, to justify your definition, you just rely on a No True Scotsman fallacy.

livid ingot
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I mean moreso that one definition of RPGs is that you play a role

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D&D, you play a role in the party. Tank, healer, dps, whatever. Even though you don't have a party in single player experiences available on PC, specializing your character for a certain role still happens

feral viper
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That one is too broad, because it applies to basically every single game.

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In Doom, you play the role of the Doom Slayer. In Mario, you play the role of Mario.

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My overall point was, and remains, however, that there is no intellectually honest way to define Morrowind as an RPG, but Skyrim not an RPG.

You'd have to cherry pick, ignore all context of the wider RPG genre outside of TES and have a pair of goalposts on wheels to even come close to justifying the claim.

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You may not LIKE the type of RPG Skyrim is. But it's still an RPG.

livid ingot
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There's no real sort of specialization in games like Mario or Doom though.

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I do think Skyrim is an rpg. But I also think you can define RPG in a way as to exclude Skyrim from that definition

feral viper
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Specialisation wasn't your criteria.

Playing a role was. A character is also a role, that's kinda how the entire field of acting works.

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Well, yes. But that is the general argument, though I'll admit, you didn't use that yourself.

And no, it doesn't.

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No, because the outcome of any action is entirely determined by the Players ability to play the game. There are no margins for variability, simply Success of Fail based on the players own ability.

This is why Metroidvanias also don't qualify. Because even though you unlock new powers their impact and success is entirely determined by the Players ability to use them.

livid ingot
feral viper
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Again, Acting disagrees.

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Dice rolls, scaling values, ability diversity. There's lots of different ways it can be expressed.

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Originally, it definitely WAS all about dice rolls, and how character abilities modified them. And this is still (largely) the basis of TTRPGs.

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Skyrim still has these qualities. The choices you make when developing your character influence what your character is good at, and how good they are at it.

That it's mostly combat and action focused is irrelevant. So are 99% of RPGs

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Narrative and Dialogue have always been more mechanisms to get from action to action, rather than the core focus of the genre.

It's refreshing when you have an RPG that IS focused on those, but they've never been the defining feature..

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At its core, whether one likes it or not, RPGs are about stats.

TES has stats. Therefore, TES are RPGs.

They aren't action games with RPG elements, they aren't even really Action RPGs. They are, in fact, more Classic RPGs.

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Considering the most classic RPG is basically just a dungeon crawl.

dim reef
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I just call em all rpgs and leave it at that. Saves the headache

livid ingot
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To me the TES games make me think of all those RPGs where you command an entire party, except instead of having individual members with different strengths and weaknesses, it's all condensed into one character. Now in Daggerfall it's pretty restricted in what you can do - all but forcing you to approach challenges presented to you in a similar manner. But as the games have progressed, those restrictions have gradually rolled back, so that it the time we get to Skyrim we are essentially embodying an entire party with little restriction on how we can solve issues. We can basically engage with all the mechanics in the game without much disadvantage (lock-picking and Shouting are good examples).

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That being said I still think Skyrim still restricts your options enough to qualify as an rpg, especially early on. Before you become a master of all trades at high levels, anywho

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I do think we have to remove the player's imagination in reaching any coherent definition for an rpg. The player can bring that to any type of game. We should stay focused on the levers that the game actually hands the player

eager remnant
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There was little restriction on "how we can solve issues" in Morrowind and Oblivion either. We could max out all skills and attributes in those games, and "engage with all the mechanics in the game" just as we do in Skurim. The only difference is that we wouldn't level up using certain skills. "Class" in the earlier games was simply a way of telling the game engine how to level our characters up.

livid ingot
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Well again early on it mattered a good deal. Less the more you progress into the game. If you don't choose a offensive skill it'll be very difficult for you to kill anything early on. Not impossible, just difficult. But your class doesn't prevent you from training those skills and eventually getting good at them so that murder as a solution becomes a more viable option

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In Oblivion it became easier to not take a combat skill and still make violence a solution because, even if your starting skill was low, you'd still hit things no matter what and still level the skill

feral viper
livid ingot
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Practically its more a question of how easily your character can pull off a solution, not whether it's possible to or not, when thinking about restrictions

feral viper
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Put the work in, and you can do it.

Forcing restrictions for the sake of having them has never sat well with me.

livid ingot
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Morrowind was really the first one where it let you do all things even if your character was bad at them

livid ingot
livid ingot
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And I guess you can argue that with Oblivion too, with spells, since you are flat out blocked from casting spells above your mastery level even if you have the magicka to do so

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I forgot since I usually ran a mod that let you cast spells above your mastery level in exchange for increased risk

feral viper
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To be clear, Skyrim was the first TES that had hard restrictions on you since Arena, at least prior to Dragonborn.

It was literally impossible to master everything.

noble verge
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At least until they introduced the ability to reset skills.

livid ingot
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I just mentioned hard restrictions from Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion

feral viper
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I wouldn't call any of those hard restrictions. Soft restrictions, sure, but you weren't prevented from achieving bypasses with any character.

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Until Dragonborn, when resetting Skills became a thing, you were explicitly locked out of the possibility of unlocking everything in Skyrim. Which was something of a rarity for TES, as even in Daggerfall you could HYPOTHETICALLY master everything (it just wasn't practical to accomplish).

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Now, none of that is to say there isn't still room to improve.... Skyrim's attempt at encouraging specialisation was so woefully undertuned, most people don't even know it was there.

And that's definitely a problem.

livid ingot
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By which I think you mean the perks system, and I whole-heartedly agree

feral viper
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Nope.

I mean, Skyrim actually scales Level EXP with your highest skills, so your higher level skills contribute more to level ups.

This was to encourage specialisation, by discouraging you from trying to use your lower level skills to power level quicker in the mid to late game.

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But the actual scaling is so bad, it's almost not noticable.

livid ingot
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Hmm, I feel that's less designed to get players to specialize and instead make harder level-ups more rewarding for the effort

feral viper
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The goal was so encourage specialisation, according to a pre-launch interview.

Clearly, it didn't work.

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It's so bad, in fact, had I not known about it from the interview, I wouldn't have even noticed. And even knowing about it, it's so minute you can barely identify it even if you're looking..

noble verge
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Did Daggerfall classes have hard equipment restrictions?

feral viper
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Not inherently. But I do think there were Disadvantages you could take for them.

livid ingot
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I feel like it would be better if you were rewarded with higher returns for more skill ups invested

feral viper
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Absolutely. There's multiple ways to improve.

dim reef
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Boy i do wish they drop some random ES6 info tomorrow for no reason ArgonianCheer

feral viper
timid drum
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Chances of that happening is when chronic illness goes away 👍

feral viper
timid drum
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Lmaooooo I'd prefer eliminating chronic illness but its a close one

feral viper
dim reef
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I'll take the illness myself personally

pulsar root
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Kill both. DO IT

timid drum
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Yes

feral viper
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Hell, I'd take it even if it was just for the duration of my lifetime.

dim reef
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I'd take it too honestly. I'm built different and can simply tank any chronic illness

noble verge
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I'd prefer to get rid of chronic illness because I'm not optimistic about TES 6 anymore and at this point would rather it be indefinite vaporware.

pulsar root
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💀 Its not vaporware. I think we're being a bit impatient

noble verge
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Well whatever the proper is term for a game that takes this long to come out.

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What I mean is that I'm worried it'll disappoint me.

Then again I actually liked both Oblivion and Starfield so maybe my standards are already low enough that I won't notice even if is a turd.

livid ingot
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They only began full development on the game two years ago

noble verge
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Upon some introspection, I think I was being needlessly pessimistic.