elder-scrolls-general-chat

[primal olive]

the Dwemer story is that of hubris, Bartleby folk who looked familiar but acted alien, and disappeared due to lacking

[feral viper]

Oh absolutely.

My beef comes more from the very clearly malicious depiction of their treatment of the Falmer, and the frequent calling out of their cruelty and immorality.

Portraying the ONLY even remotely atheist group in TES as fundamentally cruel was a choice.

And not a tasteful one.

[primal olive]

I have a theory that the Falmer (Betrayed) are actually closer to Bosmer during the Wild Hunt, the stone wall in Calcelmo's place outright says that the dwemer removed them from the earth bones, and it is known that they learned about earth bones at some point

[feral viper]

They didn't need to make the Dwemer cruel tyrants and slavers. They chose to.

[primal olive]

they make the dwemer feel less diverse than they would be

like surely not all dwemer chose to betray the Falmer??

well TO BE FAIR, we don't think like the dwemer

[pulsar root]

Well with how vague some of the lore is, its more then possible to explain some nuance in there.

[primal olive]

oh here's something I find interesting

[feral viper]

I had a hypothesis from awhile back that there was a mutual betrayal. The Falmer refused to accept the conditions of cohabitation, the Dwemer (over)reacted, and this escalated from there.

I also had the hypothesis that Aetherium was the reason their mental faculties declined not the mushrooms.

[primal olive]

"In High Rock, Sheor, known as the Bad Man is the source of all strife. He seems to have started as the god of crop failure, but most modern theologians agree that he is a demonized version of the Nordic Shor, or Aldmeri Lorkhan born during the dark years after the fall of Saarthal.[1][2]"
This implies that the Direnni knew about Saarthal and sided with the Falmer, but didn't help them protect their home lol

[primal olive]

falmer text implies total dwemer betrayl which is kinda too obvious to fit the dwemer tbh

[feral viper]

Oh don't even get me started on Sarthaal. That was a huge sticking point for me.

[primal olive]

ugh I hate how they lazily just wrote words in English and slapped the Falmer font on it <\3

like, you HAVE Ayleidoon AND Falmeris, with actual Falmeris words ON CALCEMOS STONE!!! argh

[pulsar root]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[primal olive]

Saarthal doesn't feel right

[feral viper]

You mean Calcelmo's stone?

[primal olive]

Calcelmo's stone is in Falmeris and Dwemeris but the book from the Thieves Guild quest line and the books in Dawnguard are in English

[wet wasp]

i still feel unsure about just how, they managed to make their souls white

[feral viper]

The stone is weird, because it depends who is reading it. To me, and many other atheists I know, it sounds generous.

To others, it sounds contemptuous.

[primal olive]

the soul stuff was just made by Vanus Galerion to counter Mannimarco's influence of necromancy across Tamriel

[feral viper]

Soul trap spells specifically designed to fail on particular subjects.

[primal olive]

in reality souls don't function like that it's just set up like that as a counter against necromancy

[wet wasp]

was that relevant to the Dwemer feeding the Snow elves mushrooms etc?

[primal olive]

no

the Falmer changed in part due to the fungus, but also I believe pure hate in their hearts, and possibly dwemer removing them from the earth bones if you believe that to be more literal

see dialogue from Gelebor where he suggests something similar, minus the earth bones part

[feral viper]

It's in On Falmer, of something

And sorta mentioned in Calcelmo's stone.

[wet wasp]

while i don't know super much, i just don't understand how that sort of thing happens like how do you change a soul that way. it couldn't just be the mushrooms that made them blind over time to the point that after generations of them breeding, they'd have no eyes.

another thing i wish we had an answer to is, why. why did they even do that to them in the first place.

[feral viper]

I used to know this stuff on demand. There's a reason I was given Scholar of the Week multiple times on R/TESlore.

Didn't take long for me to just forget all the sources.

[pulsar root]

Must be some powerful mushroom to screw over an entire generation.

[primal olive]

I am horrifically locked to the Falmer mentally

[feral viper]

Well, depends on how things work. They constantly use the word devolved, but that isn't a real thing.

[primal olive]

they just changed

adapted to their new home, hearts full of hate and no love for Auri-El anymore, betrayed and slaughtered

[feral viper]

You can't devolve. Evolution works in one direction. You can just evolve into less cognitively complex results.

However, that's the real world. In TES, EVERYONE is effectively devolved. That's what the races are, devolved Ehlnofey.

[wet wasp]

i wonder if we will ever even get an explanation

[primal olive]

it's dwemer so no

you'll get hints that Nords are bad but nothing gets explored and it's up to you to write your own truths

[feral viper]

Magical influences or generational low level toxicity can cause degenerate results. Which may explain the Falmer.

[primal olive]

Atmorans/early Nords* my bad I love modern Nords

[feral viper]

If memory serves, and I'm unlocking the vault for this one... The current state of the Falmer is indicated to be the result of eating toxic mushrooms. It's not clear if it's the SAME mushroom the Falmer initially gave them to blind them.

[primal olive]

it's influenced the the fungus, but it's possible that other stuff influenced the change

[feral viper]

There's plenty of different fungi in Blackreach. We don't know what does what.

[primal olive]

dwemer be like
have a fungus

[feral viper]

It makes you blind.

Whether or not it does anything else, we don't know.

[primal olive]

oh my God why was the bloat on that link so bad what the hell

[feral viper]

It was the Google search image result code.

[primal olive]

falmer had the 1 day blinding stew 🗣️

[feral viper]

Which can be viewed in one of two ways.

Either the Dwemer were being actively malicious, as most assume.

Or the Dwemer were trying to elicit a perspective change, so the Falmer could understand them.

[primal olive]

I think the second one considering they don't operate in the way we as humans know

[feral viper]

And this is where Calcelmo's Stone gets weird. Because EVERYTHING else clearly leans toward the Dwemer being amoral monsters.

But Calcelmo's stone says

'We do not need your thanks, for we do not believe in it'.

[primal olive]

the odd way dwemer operate also explains why they would trade and interact with Falmer before this, and were known as noble heroes, but so quickly "betray" them

when to the dwemer it was simply trying to make them understand better or something

[pulsar root]

They may not even elaborate in relation to the Dwemer since I've met at least a few people online that prefer the Dwemer mystery be left alone.

[feral viper]

And this is where the Theist/Atheist bias kicks in again.

Theistic perspectives almost always circle around necessary gratitude. The gods give you life, and give you a world to live in, and you OWE them thanks for that. Just like you owe your parents thanks. And you owe anyone who aids you thanks.

Reciprocate to those who take the time out of their day to help you. Because you owe them for their generosity.

Atheistic perspectives don't have the same grounding, and tend to be far more varied. But a common one, based on humanistic values, is basically that no one owes anyone gratitude. It is a moral prerogative to help those who need it.

[primal olive]

we do know the Falmer had a relationship with the Dwemer, Falmer text and artifacts of cultural blending

[feral viper]

So you have two perspectives. Either the Dwemer don't believe in the thanks of the Falmer, because the refugees are so far beneath them.

Or the Dwemer don't believe in gratitude at all. Because it is the imperative to help those who ask for it.

[primal olive]

also it's possible Falmer stonework and metal stuff could be influenced by the dwemer seeing as they both used granite and marble, with straight lines of a bronze/brass metal

though the Falmer probably used gold on their religious architecture considering Auri-El

[feral viper]

It's worth noting, in the story about the Dwemer armourer who disguises himself as an automaton, they ALSO give the Chimer the benefit of the doubt and actually engage in the trade. And they ALSO take safeguards just in case

People are complicated. Actual societies are complicated. They have different values and different ways of going about things.

But the general trend since Oblivion has simply been 'if you don't follow THESE particular gods you're a bad person'.

Which is a deeply problematic bit of worldbuilding.

And to be clear, I am not saying that you can't have good religious people.

The issue in worldbuilding stems from when you lean towards everyone outside of a particular faith being bad or morally compromised in some way.

It lacks nuance, it's insulting to the entire concept of depth and diversity, and it's just plain bad worldbuilding.

[primal olive]

oh.my god THISSSS

[pulsar root]

[primal olive]

@feral viper ty for having a more refreshing take on the Falmeri conflict btw, most people just have basic "well erm they deserved it" takes and it's blegh

[feral viper]

Glad I'm good for something these days.

I just don't want to ramble too hard, as CP is trying to get something out and I want to give them the time.

[pulsar root]

I dunno getting blinded and eventually turned into Skyrim's "Falmer" is a pretty horrible fate I wouldn't wish on anybody.

[noble verge]

I think it's mostly just because Cyrodiil and Skyrim, and indeed much of Tamriel aside from Morrowind, Elsweyr, and whatever region is currently being claimed as Orsinium, are dominated by cultures that revere the Aedra over the Daedra.

[feral viper]

I hope so. Time will tell in that regard I suppose.

[noble verge]

In TES IV we see the Shivering Isles where almost everyone, good and bad, reveres Sheogorath, and in TES V we see Raven Rock, where 2/3 of the dominant faith consists of Boethiah and Mephala yet the Dunmer seem more well-adjusted than ever.

[feral viper]

Entirely unrelated.

Not gonna lie, Kill Lupercal looks kinda awesome...

[pulsar root]

/shrug I don't have a problem with Daedra being viewed negatively.

[noble verge]

Vaguely related to your unrelated stuff, the Dwemer remind me a bit of Fabius Bile.

[feral viper]

I can definitely see that.

Except fabulous bill actually succeeded in creating his New Men.

[feral viper]

I see all faith as inherently negative.

But if the Daedra ARE Platonic Ideals made conscious entities, then they all still have value. Even the heinous ones.

It's just a matter of moderation.

Even Bal has purpose. You just can take his lessons too far.

[noble verge]

The Reclamations/Good Daedra always reminded me of the Dark Seldarine from D&D, and the similarities make the contrast between Dunmer and Drow society all the more stark.

Well except for House Dres who'd probably fit right in the Underdark.

[feral viper]

I think they're also a good example of why even seemingly negative Daedra can have positive effects.

Boethiah is the god of conspiracies, unlawful overthrow, and raw social Darwinism. But she's also the god of perseverance, self actualization, and confusing Bethesda's writers.

Mephala is the god of schemes, assassinations, and manipulation. But she's also the god that teaches the weak how they can fight back against the strong, so the oppressed can defeat the oppressor.

And Azura is .. well, the only Daedra Bethesda seems to know how to not just make explicitly evil.

[primal olive]

they do almost passable with malacath

[radiant moss]

And Azura is .. well, the only Daedra Bethesda seems to know how to not just make explicitly evil.

Well, if we're going off of Daggerfall, she's the god of egotism, vanity, worship of beauty and obsessive self-absorption. Whether that's a negative or not is up to you I suppose LOL

[feral viper]

True. I actually quite enjoyed Malacath's appearance in the novels.

[primal olive]

the daedra in general are more like concepts made manifest, it's up to mortals to not follow in excess imo

[feral viper]

Yeah, she's changed a lot since then. And for the better, IMO.

She's less of an Aphrodite figure, and more of an obsessive doll collector.

[primal olive]

also tbf to Malacath he's not really a Daedra

he's weird

[feral viper]

She genuinely loves her followers, but she'd also set them in a cupboard so nothing could ever happen to them, if she could.

[radiant moss]

I dunno, I disagree on that front. I try not to be "HURR EVERYTHING OLDER IS BETTER" but I do like the idea that the gods appear differently/represent different aspects depending on the region. Never returning to that kinda sucks b/c I do appreciate her Morrowind portrayal, but it'd be neat knowing that humans in High Rock or Cyrodiil would view her differently.

[feral viper]

That's fair too.

[noble verge]

Neither is Meridia

[pulsar root]

Yeah I'm just ok with Daedra being as "forces of evil"(I know people may view it differently and I understand it) It just doesn't bother me and I have no issue with faith in general mostly because what fictional universe's humans believe in gods have nothing to do with reality and well I am not going into that topic because mods.

[feral viper]

I was a long a proponent of the argument that traditional definitions of Aedra and Daedra don't hold up to scrutiny, and in-universe scholars are just bad scholars.

The only definition that has ever actually stood up to being tested is 'Place of residence'.

Daedra reside in Oblivion. Doesn't matter where they came from originally, they currently reside there, and therefore they are Daedra.

[primal olive]

the urge to draw more falmer

[noble verge]

Then there's Meridia who will gleefully sacrifice anyone and everyone to achieve her goals, but those goals, like "Don't let Molag Bal take over Nirn" or "Don't let the idiot who caused the former crisis get his hands on a key to a bunch of imprisoned dragons," are typically a positive thing for most mortals.

[feral viper]

Indeed. Sometimes, the ants benefit when you're gardening. Sometimes they're in the crossfire.

But to bring this all back to a practical point...

The issue is variability and nuance. For better or worse (I think better) the setting is not set up with clear Good and Evil divides. So don't pretend it has them.

Play into the perspectives and cultural differences, allowing you to explore different aspects of the same recurring figured (gods) and use that nuance to enrich the world

[pulsar root]

Provided you aren't the one being sacrificed.

[feral viper]

Again, I may not LIKE most of the lore and setting anymore, and I doubt anything short of a full rewrite would fix it for me.

But that doesn't mean I don't want to see what's there squandered or used poorly

[primal olive]

oh my God there was a brown recluse right by me

[feral viper]

Anansi was watching.

https://tenor.com/view/laughing-mr-nancy-american-gods-funny-lol-gif-18700388

[livid ingot]

I know this isn't lore but I think this definition needs to include their immortality or status as et'Ada or something adjacent. I just think we've gotten plenty of evidence that daedra are not the only residents of Oblivion.

[feral viper]

Fair.

Immortal Spirits who reside in Oblivion.

I'm not even sure we could call them et'Ada, as there are a few who have, over the years, been indicated to maybe not be et'Ada in one theory or another.

[tawdry copper]

Becareful... I hear there is a small plane of oblivion... in the Arcanaeum. It is said the prince there will summon angry Atronachs to tear you apart. If you disrupt the Arcanaeum.

[primal olive]

I wonder what them goofy snow elf pilgrim spirits are up to rn

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/pinhead-hell-raiser-well-we-will-gif-7533354

[nimble pond]

Would not be able to keep a straight face if I had to wear all that while acting. Better watch that first step down the stairs, pincushion.

[feral viper]

Hah

[thick heron]

Have you heard of the High Elves?

[pulsar root]

I've heard a syndicate altmer wizards are boycotting Imperial goods.

[thick heron]

Goodbye.

[tawdry copper]

"Stop talking!"

[thick heron]

I'm saving up enough to buy some medicine!

[primal olive]

I'm just glad it's not the Skyrim ones anymore

[tawdry copper]

They say that when you murder someone, the Dark Brotherhood comes to you in your sleep. It's how they recruit new members

[tawdry copper]

Skyrim's lack of radient AI made me a bit sad. Also I liked it when dragons attack like solitude sometimes and all those little people try to charge it. And only the guards are the ones with the bows.

[jade plover]

There is a mod that makes npcs behaviour better. It called immersive citizens

[frank ledge]

Which has tonnes of compatibility issues, and is outdated

Everyone uses AI overhaul these days

[jade plover]

I thought its the same

[frank ledge]

Nope, AI Overhaul is completely different, and comes with a lightweight version for maximum compatibility

[jade plover]

What is the difference between them? I just read a describtion and it seems the same

[frank ledge]

Immersive Citizens no longer has anyone working on it, and its script heavy, creating all sorts of behaviour for all sorts of conditions
AI Overhaul has a script-free version which solely focuses on NPC behaviour, nothing crazy like daily routines and all that
Basically points of interest, which NPCs can go to and do stuff like browse stalls, and such

[jade plover]

So immersive citizens change more things but it causes issues?

[frank ledge]

Yep

Only if you have a big modlist that deals with a whole load of npcs though

[nimble pond]

Speaking of souls and soul gems, has there ever been an entity in TES that like, idk, was hundreds of souls all in one? Yk, like Legion.

[nimble pond]

A well-thrown frying pan gets the job done

[jade plover]

Miraak had like 10 dragon souls in him

[nimble pond]

I think adding various hexes and curses to the Necromancy field would be fun. Curse you with so much bad luck you can't even move without something going wrong, even in the most comical ways

[jade plover]

That would be interesting but dont know how to implement it in game

[feral viper]

Necromancy is a weird thing.

On the one hand, the Mysticism scholar in me absolutely hates how it's used in fantasy.

On the other hand, it's rad as hell and needs more attention.

Curses that impact luck in not so sure about, within the setting context. But the animation of and manipulation of the dead has enough range in its own right to fill out an independent Skill

[tawny cove]

Abhorrent, immoral act. Traven was right to ban it.

[feral viper]

Hey, it's not like the Dead are using their bodies.

And the entire enchanting economy runs on souls anyway. The prohibition against Black Souls is just Humanoid Egotism.

[tawny cove]

Maybe. But white souls aren't sentient so it's okay

[pulsar root]

Necromancy is banned for a reason. Its already bad enough souls can even be trapped.

[tawdry copper]

If I find out someone soul trapped my dog. I am reaping their soul.

[tawny cove]

Pretty sure they only have petty souls so couldn't be me

[crimson edge]

Necromancy is legal.

Only banned by Mages Guild or Syrod after the events of Oblivion. Not banned legally though.

[tawny cove]

Being a mage outside of the guild is like being a doctor without a license

[crimson edge]

With how consistently stupid the Arch-Mage & the Council are from the Mages Guild... Eeehhh.... Bad comparison I think.

I am expecting the Synod to be in a similar boat, based on what I heard about them having similar opinions to the Mages Guild, on top of also making it harder to get new spells.

[tawny cove]

That was one guy in a backwater province put there for political reasons

[crimson edge]

I'm pretty sure that's everyone in the Council & such in Cyrodiil. Like, seriously. Jez.

[tawny cove]

Okay, now that I think about it I think Traven was the only decent leader and even then he was surrounded by fools and traitors

[tawny cove]

I was thinking about all arch mages from Morrowind to Skyrim. But you can rule the Morrowind and Skyrim ones out as derps

[crimson edge]

Nah, he honestly caused a lot of the problems for the Mages Guild in Oblivion by being so aggressively against Necromancy.

[tawny cove]

He wasn't the first. The feud with Mannimarco is old and deep

[pulsar root]

The ban is there for a reason. He might of been douchey about it but its there for a purpose. Nobody would want their family used for necromantic personal ventures(Or well me if my character's end had come)

[tawny cove]

Mannimarco has zero qualms about slaughtering people on a whim and thralling them

Very bad man. Very bad followers

[crimson edge]

The problem is that Necromancy itself isn't a bad thing. It can be a valid school of magic, and used responsibly. By banning it and being so aggressively, he pushes more would-be good Necromancers into joining Mannimarco's cult instead and causing the war to be far worse than it would've been otherwise.

[tawny cove]

Perhaps

[pulsar root]

Nah, being against Necromancy isn't some fringe take or anything. If people are joining his cult.. thats on them.

[tawny cove]

He's still a thorn that will probably keep plaguing the guild though and forcing a reaction. The Magneto to our Professor X

[crimson edge]

Well, ye'. It's a good thing to get rid of the secondary Mannimarco, sure. I'm just saying, Necromancy itself shouldn't have been banned to begin with.

[tawny cove]

To your point, the Dunmer employ a more respectful form of it in their ancestor worship rituals

[crimson edge]

I think it's a bad take because most people assume Necromancy is an evil school of magic, when it is more than just the basic "raise corpses" ordeal.

Hell, there's even good aligned Liches in Elder Scrolls lore. You can perform Necromancy without being evil about it.

[timid drum]

Remeber folks, only perform necromancy with consent

[tawny cove]

Hmm most of the liches that left behind journals in oblivion seem to inevitably go insane and turn into mindless murderous creatures

It never seems to be the path to immortality they were hoping for

[crimson edge]

Tbf, this is true. One of the good aligned Liches will only call spirits of the dead with their consent, she doesn't forced them against their will to obey her. Was kinda funny.

[timid drum]

I was just being silly but fair point xd

[crimson edge]

Ye'h, Lichdom is bad for most people. Hell, Lichdom is so difficult that I think there's only like a few cases of "Perfect Liches" in lore. Mannimarco being one of them.

[tawny cove]

Which makes his whole cult a pyramid scheme

[tawny cove]

He promises everyone that they can have something that in reality only the guy at the top can have

[crimson edge]

The funny thing, both Perfect Liches that you meet in Elder Scrolls games are High Elves, and the other one is the good lich I mentioned before.

[tawny cove]

Now don't tell Traven. But I've been known to maybe summon a lich or wraith or two while I'm in an Oblivion gate to avoid confusion

[tawny cove]

Combination of being long lived enough to study stuff forever and natural talent I'd say.

[tight charm]

What do you mean by “perfect liches”?

[crimson edge]

They are Liches but still kept their physical appearance to a degree.

[tawdry copper]

Mannimarco supposedly.

[feral viper]

Yes they are. We just like to pretend they aren't, because it makes us feel better about being partially carnivorous.

[crimson edge]

Basically, Mannimarco is a Lich but he still looks like an Altmer, instead of an undead being.

[tight charm]

Ah, my friend, that is done by illusion magic. They very much so look like every other lich in reality.

[tawdry copper]

But I don't see a problem with becoming a lich, or vampire but merida and arkay got beef with it for some reason.

[feral viper]

They certainly did before whatever the hell Oblivion was.

[crimson edge]

Ah, okay then. My bad then.

[tawny cove]

He's also relatively sane

[feral viper]

And in ESO, Manni is still relatively young. Probably not quite corpse-like yet..

The nature of Lichdom in TES isn't nearly as refined as it is in D&D either.

[tight charm]

Nah, he is. Vastarie is the same age as him and was once his friend and admits to being corpse-like without the magic.

[pulsar root]

That we know of.

[tight charm]

Mannimarco? Sane?

[tawny cove]

For a lich. Most of them lose the ability to form speech eventually

[feral viper]

Fair, been ages since I spoke to her.

[feral viper]

You mistake being unable to speak, to not caring to speak with lowly adventurers.

Liches in pretty much every instance we've seen them CAN talk. They simply choose not to, or speak in languages the player doesn't understand.

[crimson edge]

Nah, Lichdom is a very bad progress that can break most people's minds. The ritual is highly dangerous and surviving it doesn't mean one's mind is in fully intact.

I'm pretty sure Vastarie explains the progress pretty well?

[tawny cove]

Judging from their own journals yeah

Bad mojo

[feral viper]

Again, been years since I spoke to her in game. And really, at this point I don't care enough to actually look into it.

So I may in fact be wrong on this point.

[tight charm]

You mistake being unable to speak with lichdom driving them insane and no longer having a rational mind.

“Traveling through the phylactery can tear a lich's psyche apart, resulting in madness. Long separation from one's soul can lead to apathy and megalomania, as well. In almost all cases, lichdom becomes a curse in very short order."

It’s not a “with time” thing either. It’s immediate.

[tawny cove]

We can at least agree they're no longer very rational actors then

[tight charm]

Oh yes, they are very much so irrational actors.

[feral viper]

Ok, so they either go mad immediately (at which point I'd say they're basically a failed lich) or become detached and dismissive of mortals.

None of which indicates they're incapable of speech.

[tight charm]

Vastarie is very open about her condition, yes.

[feral viper]

I mean, if you actually evaluate the actions and perspectives of MOST individuals in Tamriel, they aren't rational actors.

[tawny cove]

My mistake. I just wanted to point out the obvious bad part of necromancy

[tight charm]

She is genuinely one of our best sources on lichdom in TES.

[feral viper]

Rationality has very specific evaluative rules and procedures. Almost no one in Tamriel follows them.

They're impulsive, ideologically motivated, superstitious, and prone to rash judgement and adherence to irrational traditions.

[tight charm]

They don’t necessarily become detached and dismissive, but it certainly can happen as a byproduct of being alive for insane amounts of time. Divayth is like that despite being not-a-lich.

[tawny cove]

Well don't be like that now. We're all human. Nobody is perfectly logical all the time. I know I try to be myself but it's just not possible.

[feral viper]

We're better than those of Tamriel.

[crimson edge]

Eeyup. She was fun to talk to. Really enjoyed her opinions on Necromancy and made me want to support that school of magic in-lore a lot more than I did before.

[feral viper]

We had our Enlightenment and, as a society, have established, exploded, and pursued rationality.

Tamriel has not. They're superstitious medieval peasants and fumbling ideological scholars without the barest standards of methodology.

[tawny cove]

Okay but Fyr is a Chad

[feral viper]

That's part of the charm. It's a feature, not a bug.

But don't call them rational.

[tawny cove]

True. I like my fantasy with peasant superstition

[feral viper]

We still have a lot of those superstitious peasants of course, but socially we've sorta moved on.

[tawny cove]

Some of the stuff those fellas in the Witcher will say is hilarious for instance

[feral viper]

Indeed. Though I'm not one to generally sing the praises of The Witcher, it does get the inbred idiot peasant vibe pretty good .

[crimson edge]

Tamriel has magic, and they aren't destroying their own planet.

[feral viper]

Hah, nah. Sometimes, they're DELIBERATELY trying to destroy their planet.

[tawny cove]

Tell that to Red Mountain

[feral viper]

We just destroy it through indifference. People in Tamriel sometimes do it intentionally

But as far as Necromancy goes...

TES isn't like D&D. It doesn't have strict Good-Evil alignments. The issue with Necromancy is a social and ethical one, it's not evil in its own right.

Necromancy is like Eugenics. It's simply a tool. That said tool is USUALLY used for ill doesn't make the tool bad. It just reflects how bad people are.

[pulsar root]

To be fair a Daedra summoning that giant rock above Morrowind was not anyone on Tamriel's fault.

[feral viper]

Vivec mocking the weakness of the Daedra to swing his schlong around, disagrees.

[crimson edge]

Eeyup, it's usually a god or Daedric Prince trying to destroy Tamriel.

[feral viper]

Mannimarco, Mankar Camoran, Alduin (who was not a god, no matter how much people continue to claim otherwise)...

Hell, half the people who have actively tried to destroy Tamriel have been mortals. Sometimes they try to use gods to do it, but they're the instigators.

[crimson edge]

Mannimarco never wanted to destroy anything, he was just seeking godhood and technically he won...

[feral viper]

He was willing to risk destroying Tamriel to achieve that goal.

In fact, he tried at least twice to play that hand.

[crimson edge]

Well, ye'h. His plan with Molag Bal was bad.

[pulsar root]

He worked with Molag Bal? Bruh........

[crimson edge]

In ESO, he was working with Molag Bal to eventually betray Molag Bal. His plan was to essentially kill and absorb Molag Bal's essence to use that to become a God himself.

[feral viper]

At best, Manni was like the Manhattan Project researchers gambling on whether or not the test would ignite the atmosphere.

Except he had much worse odds

[crimson edge]

When was his second time? He basically tried once with Molag Bal, and then succeed the second time during Daggerfall on a technicality because of the Dragonbreak.

[feral viper]

Numidium.

[crimson edge]

That was the time he succeeded though.

Every possible ending of Daggerfall became canon because of the Dragonbreak.

[tawny cove]

I blame the hubris of the man that left it there and used it as a dungeon

[pulsar root]

Yes, of course. He should of at least dealt with it then ....leave it there.

[tawny cove]

In some ways I do admire his pride though. He had a vanity unlike any other.

[frank shuttle]

please make the elder scrolls 6 also for VR

[feral viper]

He definitely won that gamble.

Maybe.

[crimson edge]

Becoming a God and having your own Necromancer's Moon orbitting around Arkay is pretty much a big win I think, lol.

[feral viper]

But he also became Oblivion's bare footed buffoon, turned beef jerky.

So, maybe less of a win.

[crimson edge]

Well, let's just say that the player cleans up his lesser version for him.

[feral viper]

Like a janitor cleaning the tacco bell bathroom

But, depending on how you interpret that (and there have been several over the years) it's possible Manni was ousted as a god, and that clown is him returned as a mortal.

Which is more why I say Maybe. Because Oblivion and Skyrim don't actually explain how the situation in Oblivion is even possible.

[livid ingot]

I'm expecting this, actually

TES is a game that fits well with VR. I would be fairly surprised if there wasn't extensive VR compatibility

[pulsar root]

Post release

[livid ingot]

I wouldn't expect it to be a tacked-on feature.

[frank shuttle]

i am very surprised that they didnt make the remasterd oblivion to also be in vr

[feral viper]

That'd be a lot more work.

Remasters are about minimal effort for maximum return.

It's kind of impressive they fixed any of the gameplay as it is.

[tawdry copper]

Anyone else think Dyus looks like someone wearing smeared mascara all over his eyes?

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/no-camina-drummer-cara-gee-the-expanse-s509-gif-20124358

[thick heron]

I assume that he cries a lot.

[nimble pond]

I thought they just messed around with couch cushions

[safe stratus]

Idea: elder scrolls spinoff game where you play as one of the housecat shaped khajiit
Stealth adventure type of deal where your tools consists of what a normal cat can do + some spells

[jade plover]

You just invented Stray

[safe stratus]

Stray with magic and skooma

[jade plover]

Fair

[primal olive]

elder scrolls spinoff where you play as a snow elf running from the Atmoran Horde genociding your people in a DBD esque manner

[safe stratus]

I feel like this idea is significantly less marketable than Stray with magic and skooma

[primal olive]

oh absolutely the Nord fans wouldn't like having to feel guilty for something that was morally wrong /hj

[jade plover]

The most marketable spin off idea is a total war strategy set in the middle of first era

[safe stratus]

I still think a TES stray-like would sell like hot cakes tbh

[jade plover]

Lets borrow money from Phill Spencer, you'll make a cat game, i'll make a strategy. Who will earn more money - wins

[safe stratus]

Hah

If only it was that easy to get a small loan of a few million dollars from Phil Spencer

[nimble pond]

Hah, horde! I used to be addicted to GoW "horde mode" back in the day

Got me thinking of like a CoD zombie-mode, but TES themed (no not just all zombies). Running around the map, unlocking powerful Daedric weapons and powers of the TES Gods. Fighting off wave after wave of TES baddies, and bonus rounds, mini-bosses. And some terribly easy (as usual) puzzle (EE) to solve. It'd be bloody awful, but so great at the same time!

As far as spin-offs, I've brought up a RTS like Halo Wars before. But I'd also be interested in a mini-spin off of a pure hunting/fishing/survival and camping naturistic game in TES universe. Like the old Cabela games.

[nimble pond]

What guilt? The word is incomprehensible to the Nords 😋

[last dew]

You know what Elder Scrolls needs? A vampire companion with a personality like Astarion from BG3, and the same voice actor as him too. It's not everyday you get a vampire companion since Skyrim Dawnguard DLC. But please correct me if I'm wrong, is Serana the first Elder Scrolls Vampire companion in Bethesda games? I'd hate to get myself misinformed. EDIT: No she is not. I already figured Morrowind already has that. Looked it up. Falric for example is a vampire companion in Morrowind.

[next zenith]

Yall think we'll get new races for tes6? Lol

[vagrant laurel]

Shadow drop ES6 on May 26th 2025 since Rockstar delayed GTA 6 you guys can get GOTY this year easy just have to beat KCD2

[vagrant laurel]

I hope so just because it’ll show more creativity to create more unique races, but I’ve always loved the choices we’ve gotten. Maybe they could add necromancer and arcanist class like ESO did in DLC

[half igloo]

"whats everyone laughing at?!"

[livid ingot]

I think they're going to move away from races and more towards nebulous 'backgrounds'

Or something analogous

[vagrant laurel]

No way in Oblivion they getting rid of races after 5 ES games

Really 6 cause they have em in ESO too

[livid ingot]

Nibenean, Colovian, Yoku, Ra Gada, etc

[vagrant laurel]

We shall see by 2050 my friend

[livid ingot]

By 2075

Dont get your hopes up

[vagrant laurel]

I wish Todd was my dad I’d lock him in his room until he finished the game

[jade plover]

1. More playable races is against lore, if game wont be set in 1st era or akavir
2. Elder scrolls dont have classes

[jade plover]

They can have both. And how can they move away from races? Bosmers will stop being bosmers or what?

[next zenith]

theres a few sentient races that could be either handwaved in like goblins, and a few races that exist in the lore but arent playable

[pulsar root]

I don't think Races are going away in terms of Humans, Mer/elves/Argonian/Khajit. They might just acknowledge bretons,Nords and Redguard as all Humans(Or man).

I think minotaur might be a nice new race to add.

High Elf, Wood Elf and Dark Elf will still exist.

[next zenith]

bretons, redguards, and nords arent all just humans, they have specific magics and lineage that affects what they are

[pulsar root]

Different flavor of Human is still Human.

[next zenith]

reguards arent just human tho they're half elfs

if they wanted to boil it down to elfs/humans/argonians/orcs/cats and use lineage i guess but i mean.. i dont even like how they removed character sex from human stats since humans have different morpheology with pros and cons and it has been studied and proven

[livid ingot]

I think it'll be more like a sliding scale, so people have more flexibility in creating characters. Characters that are half-Dunmer, half-Nord for example will be possible

[jade plover]

Goblins are not that sentient, they are more like cavemen. Who else can be playable? Give me examples maybe i forgot something

[next zenith]

weird fox people and shaven apes

iirc theres a bunch of argonian variants, spriggans, falmer, hags

and daedra

[pulsar root]

I don't think gameplaywise stats should be different between male and female. It wasn't necessary. Nor do I care for half such and such.

[next zenith]

idk, i like there being that level of representative diversity that also impacts character creation.

[jade plover]

Different ancestors. They came from different continents. Nords and redguards are more different than altmers and dunmers

[next zenith]

truth be told theres a reason to do a playthrough as a man and as a woman in cyberpunk due to branching options

[jade plover]

And i think neds are ancestors of imperials and reachmen but im not sure

[next zenith]

there should be no races except orcs

[feral viper]

Orcs are just giant goblins.

Convince me otherwise.

[livid ingot]

I think you'd also be able to create Khajiit subtypes. Like make a elf-looking character with Khajiit bonuses and boom: Ohmes

[jade plover]

Yeah this may be possible

[next zenith]

can't the khajiit actually transform in lore?

would be neat if using illusion they made fake moonlight and changed form as a special interaction

[livid ingot]

Just using the system as it is now would be pretty cumbersome to include all Khajiit types, all combinations of half-breeds, etc

[next zenith]

i talked to a god once and he told me they were just improved elves

[feral viper]

And another god says they're debased elves.

[jade plover]

My message was deleted. I wonder what was wrong. There were no slurs

[feral viper]

You can't trust what gods say. They're tricksy buggers.

[jade plover]

Dont want my message to be deleted so, half of them exticted another half are not races

[feral viper]

The filter sometimes picks up on weird things and it's not clear why. I totally feel ya there.

[jade plover]

I didnt know it changes anything there

[next zenith]

The filter was designed by sheogorath

[next zenith]

In cyberpunk its more common like you cant do some of the romance options based on your characters sex irrc

[livid ingot]

Basically the races would still exist in the lore, but when you're creating a character you won't be prompted what race you want your character to be and instead you'll be given much greater control over what you want them to look like.

That's the system I would like to see

[next zenith]

How is that a good thing?

They shouldnt aspire to become the grey slop that dnd became where nothing stands out

[jade plover]

I dont think youd be able to play as a sench. That would be ridiculous

[next zenith]

Argonians actually have various phenotypes currently i believe its a not-so-subtle knockoff of wh lizardmen

Which probably yoinked it from somewhere else

[jade plover]

Ah, yeah i know this. To partners for male and two for female

[next zenith]

I think it adds more when stuff like that is coded instead of the bg3 approach

[jade plover]

What abour race bonuses? Just choosing anything you want?

[next zenith]

Also the idea of different species having the same temperments and morality ruins immersion for me since effectively they should have different instincts and social structures from which they derive their philosophy

[livid ingot]

Not everything would be possible. You'd just have more options.

[jade plover]

What was wrong with bg3?

[livid ingot]

It'd probably still have to be humanoid, conform to a standard body plan

[next zenith]

Things like dnd dwarfs having bonuses to hammers makes sense to me since their entire society is derived from being underground metal workers

[next zenith]

Uhh camp makes me want to call h.r. on my party members

[jade plover]

The dude is talking only about character creator not npcs

[next zenith]

Even that

Elder scrolls might be one of the few series where being human actually means something other than 'the average'

Tho its hit or miss depending on who makes the quest

The common trope of aliens/other species just being human brains in different bodies has always rubbed me the wrong way

[jade plover]

But in bg they didnt remove bonuses they made them flexible. you can choose ur bonus. So if you want it to be immersive you still can give your dwarf +1 +2 to skills they supposed to have

[next zenith]

Uhuh.. its stupid

A human should not be in the same strength range as an orc or the same agility range as an elf

[austere oasis]

Their heads both look good sitting on top of poles!

[next zenith]

Why even have races if they're irrelevant

[jade plover]

And they wont be, if you dont want it

[next zenith]

Might as well just sell skins lmao

[feral viper]

Eeeh, largely because it's divisions are older.

[next zenith]

Hard disagree

The limitations of chosing a species are as important as the bonuses

[feral viper]

In the time when TES and it's races were being developed, different human ethnicities frequently had different stats in TTPRGs. Gygax himself once had half a dozen human rubraces for D&D.

[jade plover]

They still have racial skills, different level bonuses, different speed etc. They only changed starting +1 +2 thing

[next zenith]

Ttdnd made it even worse

Everyone is just a human

[feral viper]

It wasn't until the late 90s and early 2000s that Humans became far more generalised.

[next zenith]

They made orcs not evil by human standards instead of expanding on what it means to be good by orcish standards

[jade plover]

This sucks

[livid ingot]

Some other things made possible:

1. height is no longer locked to race. E.g. you can have a tall Bosmer if you choose.
2. voice is no longer locked to race. E.G. you could have an imperial-sounding Khajiit.
3. Options are locked to races. E.G. you can have a Breton with an Almer hairdo, an Imperial with Dunmer eyes, etc

[feral viper]

Personally, I am adamantly against Races. Either go full Species, or get out of the pool.

[livid ingot]

Mind this is just for the player character. Most NPCs will still (largely) default to stereotypes

[jade plover]

We already have it in eso. You have certain race bonuses but you can give your character almost any appearance. People dont see it as a problem. Most people choose classic options anyway

[next zenith]

Personally i think race in the context of irl language should be viewed for cultural differences whereas species is biological differences in the general sense

Since typically in a fantasy setting things are that integrated

A redguard isnt the same exact species as a nord or an imperial theyre more akin to breeds

Like

Redguards have innate magics

Nords have blood connections to talos who is a god

[feral viper]

Actually, Men and Mer are, at least, the same Species across the board.

Khajiit and Argonians, and in fact all humanoid creatures, are likely as well.

Animals get a little iffy.

[next zenith]

Race as we see it in irl is already generalized in tes games, you can be a black nord

But the difference between the types of human in tes is more like the difference between dogs

[feral viper]

The 'Races' of Tamriel are just ethnic groups, some of which have gone through more magical metamorphosis than others.

[next zenith]

Than between races irl

One might be a pug one is a chihuahua

[jade plover]

1. Already in teso
2. Ur character will be muted 100%
3. That would be weird, because some things are very specific. Like dunmers must have red eyes, its part of the lore. But having red eyes for nord doesnt make any sense

[next zenith]

So I guess you could tier it to species/breed/culture

[feral viper]

And that degree of deviation only exists between Beast Races in Tamriel.

The actual physicality of Men and Mer is basically superficial.

[next zenith]

Ah yes being born half immune to cold damage isnt a distinctive trait

[feral viper]

Because they aren't. That's a gameplay contrivance to feed lacy roleplayers, not something actually reflected in the setting

[next zenith]

Thats not culture (skyrim) nor is it species (human) its breed(nord)

Which isnt a race as much as a breed since its so varied

[feral viper]

They actually used to be almost entirely immune to cold, when Kirkbride wrote the lore. But then oblivon ruined the setting

But I have to work. I can't rant about how garbage Races are right now

[pulsar root]

I hope Terical can see this but I'm just gonna leave my opinion there and won't budge on this particular issue. There's only so much customization you can have until it starts contradicting established lore. Bypassing it just to appease players I feel dilutes whats been established. Its one thing for a temporary magical power up to alter their appearence(Or corruption from dark magic) but outside of that, it shouldn't change.

[livid ingot]

Your character still makes yells, grunts, etc, that draw from the voice files.
As for the latter, it could be weird. But if a person wants to play a half-Redguard, half-Khajiit, maybe they want those options to make their character distinct. Rather than, say, choosing Khajiit as a race and pretending they're part Redguard, or making a unique race mod.
We know in lore that children predominantly take the form of their mother. But that is both just an in-universe explanation for a restriction, and has long been just very unsatisfying for people who like to play such characters. Just go have a look at a lot of fanart of TES OCs!

[next zenith]

Race as we see it irl is in the skin pigment section since irl race is very minimal what it affects and the stuff it does isnt noteworthy enough for an rpg

I endorse letting people be black nords and whatever its just that a nord and a breton arent the same thing biologically and they have magically influenced differences

[livid ingot]

And I mean, we have in-universe examples of such hybridization (e.g. the Grey Prince)

[next zenith]

Theyre humans

Id expect a lot of crossing

[livid ingot]

Just let people have creative freedom with their characters. It's a single-player series. It doesn't hurt anybody else's experience.

[next zenith]

I think of it more like this: nords are neanderthals, imperials are homosapiens, bretons are denisovans

All humans, can mix, similar social structure and temperments, but with obvious taxonomic differences

[next zenith]

It does tho because you want to water down my experience

If you wanted to add a cross-species i can see that

[jade plover]

People can have children with kajits?🤢

[next zenith]

I dont think khajiit or argonian can mix

[livid ingot]

Khajiit are ||actually elves||

[next zenith]

And i think human+elf is actually usually a failure too the half elfs are rare and were crafted

I mix up the other humans, i think its bretons

Might be redguards, i mix them up

But they were definitely crafted with great stress and the hybridization is recessive

[jade plover]

But he mean add it in character creator. Not as usual npc. You wont see it

[next zenith]

at that rate just let people start as vampires or werewolves or daedra

[jade plover]

How so?

[next zenith]

or goblins or minotaurs or trolls or mudcrabs

"Its a singleplayer game, why cant i be an uplifted mudcrab in vanilla"

the main character is already a snowflake how many layers of snow do you need to feel special you're already the chosen one whos gonna be the legendary master of like 5 guilds

[jade plover]

That would actually cool if you can haunt other creatures like in dishonored

[next zenith]

i want some subschool of alteration thats literal transformations.

Practitioners can be hircine cultists

[livid ingot]

Well it's overstating things a bit. But they are much closer related than they (usually) appear. There's a reason why Ohmes are indistinguishable from Bosmer at a distance.

[jade plover]

The reason why they indistinguishable is devs didnt make up cat people in the first game and then had to explain it😂

[next zenith]

could run into a lot of werebear/werewolves that use that magic

[livid ingot]

The Khajiit are descended from the Ehlnofey just like men and mer.

[next zenith]

idk why we're even talking about all these cringe lesser races,

tes6 should only allow argonians

[livid ingot]

Argonians are the odd ones out, really

[jade plover]

I thought there was something like a general beast race who later split into kajits, imga, fox people etc

Im sure i saw something like that

[livid ingot]

If what we think we know about Argonian origins is true, anyway

[next zenith]

you mean they were made by the old ones a god and are born from spawning pools hist trees

[livid ingot]

Yeah, they're seemingly an "uplifted" race. It's an old sci-fi trope

[next zenith]

depending on their birthing conditions they are assigned a caste

[livid ingot]

Turning animalistic lizards into intelligent beings

[next zenith]

some are born to be nimble and stealthy they're called chemeleon skinks shadowscales

[jade plover]

What? Didnt hist made them out of usual lizards?

[livid ingot]

Yeah, that's what uplift is.

[jade plover]

Ah, okay

How is it sci fi?

[next zenith]

i dont think being made by a godlike entity is considered a scifi trope as much as a religious one

[livid ingot]

Take a dog, genetically modify them and create intelligent dogs capable of speech, etc

[jade plover]

Magic

[next zenith]

so... huskies?

[livid ingot]

In this case, yes! Magic hallucinogenic tree sap!

[livid ingot]

Lol huskies are something else

[next zenith]

wait... were argonians based off joe rogan's mushroom theory?

[livid ingot]

That's not Rogan's theory. It's, ah, the shroom hypothesis goes back to a hippie dude whose name I'm forgetting atm

But yeah kinda

[next zenith]

oh! IMGA

thats a race that should be playable, but i dont want to be shaved

[livid ingot]

Imga could be fun

They need a lore (re)write though

[jade plover]

I thought they were removed

There are no signs of them in eso

[next zenith]

thats because eso sucks

[jade plover]

Someone said devs explained it like "they are hiding in conflicts" but they actually just didnt want to deal with it

[livid ingot]

They might be 🤷‍♂️ Hard to say when it comes to lore

[jade plover]

Time for rant!

Eso spoiled kwama so much😭

Why did they do it, it upsets me

[next zenith]

i think eso should be considered non-canon

[jade plover]

They were stupid but unique creatures and now just big bugs

[next zenith]

its mere existence is bad for the universe

establishing what everywhere and everything looks like in tes ruins the illusion

[jade plover]

Idk eso has more lore than all the orher scrolls together

[next zenith]

yeah but its cheap MMO lore

the worst kind of lore

[jade plover]

No it is actually become deeper. They added a lot of early lore works that were not included in previous games

[next zenith]

and im saying they should consider it all non-canon

the more you explain a fantasy world the worse it gets

look at warcraft

[jade plover]

I dont like warcraft

[next zenith]

because its too expanded lol

[jade plover]

I have never liked it😅

[next zenith]

old wc3 lore was good

[jade plover]

Maybe, but i guess im not old enough to be a fan of warcraft

[next zenith]

how old are you

[jade plover]

Some of my friends played it though

[austere oasis]

I haven't seen this take since eso came out (i agree)

[jade plover]

23

[next zenith]

oh you're a child lol, ok, so back in the day 'deep lore' in gaming was like "mario got to the castle and plot twist she was in another castle"

warcraft 3 subverted a lot of tropes really well, and wow classic did a great job of showing the world through the eyes of a normal character who wasnt some super special hero

[feral viper]

Yeah, sure, let's just toss out legitimately the best TES game in the last 2 decades as non-canon.

Because Oblivion and Skyrim are sooooo much better

[next zenith]

oh yeah, 'the best'

the game with a meta and zero immersion

[feral viper]

And what, Oblivion is immersive?

[next zenith]

you're the legendary never dies guy, the only one, except all the other ones on your screen

[next zenith]

yes its very immersive to people on their first playthrough

i get that you probably played it like 50 times

[feral viper]

Oblivion is an animatronic novelty theme park from the 1980s.

[next zenith]

thats certainly your opinion

[jade plover]

Playing it may feel weird if you dont like mmos, but it still has a lot of great lore made together with bethesda, that not only consistent with old lore but also closes a lot of holes in it

[feral viper]

I have hated Oblivion since the day it came out. And plenty of people around here will vouch for my consistency on that.

[next zenith]

eso removes all mystery of the world and replaces it with bland normie fantasy

[feral viper]

Of course, I don't find ANY TES game immersive anyway.

[next zenith]

dreamed up by unimaginative and incompetent microtransaction farmers

[feral viper]

I thought we were talking about ESO. Why we back on Oblivion?

[jade plover]

But their design of narure and creatures is really bad. Arcitecture is cool though

[next zenith]

oblivion has its cheesey moments but as far as RPGs go its quite immersive

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/john-jonah-jameson-lol-laughing-hysterically-laughing-out-loud-funny-gif-17710543

[next zenith]

especially considering its release time it was very different from other games

whereas ESO just ripped off terra online combat instead of elder scrolls combat and threw in a bunch of deviantart sonic the hedgehog OC fanfic level lore

[jade plover]

Well, lore for eso is written by the same person as for oblivion and skyrim

Until dead land ant least, then he left the team i think

[next zenith]

seeing elsewyr in person and its an underdeveloped minor quest hub locked behind the dumbest faction system ive ever seen is why i hate eso lore

or the black marsh

and lets not forget the combat system

all the bad choices of wow combat with none of the good choices of wow combat system

in a game that promised an elder scrolls experience

[jade plover]

Vanilla quests and world are really awfull, i never played there after finishing covenant quests. But dlcs are much better and have even better main quests that single games imo. Quests in vvardenfell and clowork city are really great

[next zenith]

so i expected archery that didnt phase through enemies

so all the bad quests are why i say the entire thing should be retconned

if theres good stuff they could cycle it back in through novels

but as a whole, it should be deemed non-canon especially the zones as presented

But if they made an elder scrolls game that takes place in any of those regions theyd have to use those regions to build off

Thats my gripe

[jade plover]

I dont think so, they understand that eso has limited resourses and often reuse assets. If all cities in hammerfell look the same it doesnt mean they will look like that in tes 6. They dont have to repeat that

And also tes 6 will probably have 10 times bigger area so hammerfell will look nothing like in teso

[next zenith]

i think the term is like 'Supplemental Lore'

whttrpg is like that, where until its touched by the main teams thats the defacto stuff but the second anyone actually puts anything down into the official books its usually hard retconned out of existence and replaced with something better and broader

[pulsar root]

We don't even know if its even Hammerfell.

[feral viper]

People. ESO had been a more collaborative effort.

Oblivion and Skyrim were as well, of course, just... Well, I think the results speak for themselves.

Like a rudderless ship capsized in a whirlpool.

[livid ingot]

Yup. There doesn't seem to even be much - if any - central direction when it comes to writing lore. Also established lore is readily contradicted if it doesn't suit the story you want to tell.

Lots of books are written just to flesh out questlines and provide them with more background

At least, as far as we understand things to work from our outside vantage point

[feral viper]

ESO has proven to be more cohesive and consistent, largely due to its Loremaster position.

But Bethesda lacks any such role as far as we can tell, which... Well, explains a lot.

[livid ingot]

yup haha

Fans like to have bitter fights about canon but at the top things seem very loosey-goosey.

[crimson edge]

I consider ESO to be canon. It seems to do a good respecting the original lore and establishing more lore on top of it. A lot of the contradictions in lore is either for the better or happened because of unreliable author in-universe ordeal, so I'm cool wit' it.

[pulsar root]

The power of unreliable narrator works well but not overused.

[feral viper]

While I still think it's added more bad than good, ESO has also added more good than all official games for the last 20 years combined.

[crimson edge]

Plus, if you really want to dislike ESO or something specific... Well, we do know that there are multiple timelines in the Elder Scrolls series, hell... It's theorize that Morrowind, Oblivion, & Skyrim are in a separate timeline from Arena & Daggerfall due to the whole Warp in the West Dragonbreak ordeal, so go nuts for ye' own personal vision, haha.

[feral viper]

Alternate Timelines...

https://tenor.com/view/jaimer-animation-creepy-creepy-cat-hiss-gif-16442753164230571901

[livid ingot]

I advocate analyzing the lore separately for each game, rather than trying to make it a unifying whole

[pulsar root]

I advocate for at least documenting the story of your game if you intend to keep making your franchise bigger, less contradictions.

As a teen though I didn't really think of such things cause deeerrrrrp

[crimson edge]

They exists, ESO even established it further in two DLC expansions.

[feral viper]

I know. That's why I quit.

[pulsar root]

🌚

[livid ingot]

Terical knows multiple timelines only lead to madness and death. Terical has played 5D Chess with Multiverse Time Travel on Steam.

[feral viper]

I also spent way too much money on university philosophy courses when I should have been taking my anthro courses.

I only needed 2 to graduate. The extra 4 contributed nothing to my degree

[raven helm]

You know something I noticed. Everybody always talks about how all the Mario kart themes have that one similar harmony in all of them but nobody ever talks about how elders scrolls 3 4 and 5 have very similar title screen theme songs

Like listen to a piano rendition of neravar rising, reign of the septims and Dragonborn it’s very obvious

[feral viper]

Well, that's because TES 3, 4, 5, and ESOs main theme aren't so much similar, as they are recomposed derivations of the same piece.

They're more Covers than they are independent musical pieces.

Hell March and (my favourite composition of all time) Ozar Mideashim are other examples of this.

[raven helm]

That part in eso is literally oblivion but stretched out longer

[feral viper]

Man, that statement could say a lot about TES in general for the last 20 years.

[raven helm]

Too bad that’s not gonna happen anymore now that Jeremy soule is gone

I like that kind of thing

[feral viper]

I don't think the idea is out, totally. You don't need the original composer to evolve a theme.

[raven helm]

I suppose

Like morrowind if you put it on x2 speed on YouTube it sounds just like the horn part in oblivion where the camera circles the imperial city

[feral viper]

Nerevar Rising is, IMO, the best. Both Septim Rising and Dragonborn Rising are pale imitations.

Contrast that, with LoK Defiance's Ozar Midrashim being the best, as well as Hell March 3.

So, there's going to be some range even within the same theme, and different composers.

[pulsar root]

I feel like I'm the odd one out when it comes to Inon Zur's music(Starfield). Like I liked some of the music but there was only(When you jump to a specific system theme music) that stood out. Otherwise nothing that was at least good. Soule's Skyrim is well its not bad but not masterful at least IMO.

The main menu theme(The sort of shouting) is impressive but again my tastes.

[feral viper]

Oh, I don't think Starfield's tracks were spectacular either.

To be entirely honest, I think the music in Bethesda games is rather eh.

[gloomy anchor]

[feral viper]

The compositions themselves are excelent. But their relation to the games, and the emotional gravitas of them, is lacking in basically every game.

Which highlights a second problem. Something that's technically well done, doesn't necessarily fit, and can be made worse by the mismatch.

Oblivion's Soundtrack, for instance, is technically excellent. But the general lack of stylistic and thematic focus of the game hurts it as part of a complete project.

Now, if the game took place in the post-crisis ruins of a broken Empire, struggling to piece things back together and full of sadness and uncertainty...

The slow, melancholic nature of Oblivion's soundtrack would have been perfect.

None of this is Soule's fault of course. The leadership direction is to blame for all of that.

Still, of my personal 5 favourite TES pieces, only 2 are Soule's.

I think... Now that I think about it, I don't even know who DID Resguard's theme. ..

[feral viper]

In TES' defense, they're also the only franchise that as 2 of my top 10 vg tracks

So while I'm not thrilled by most of them, when they hit the high bar they really hit..

[primal olive]

AI image, die

[pulsar root]

Least it got the yellowish tint for High Elves right

[night ember]

the lore was also created by much more eccentric writers than the company has now

[feral viper]

Eccentric is a word for it..

[night ember]

every new game they don't ask "what's the lore tell us about this place" it's "how can we create a large open world fantasy rpg for a wide audience while being stuck with what weird junk they wrote 2 decades ago"

maybe that's a little uncharitable, but it does definitely feel like the lore is an obstacle for them as much as it is a storytelling aide. Especially because they're so dead set on not offending anyone with their current output.

[feral viper]

I think it's way more charitable than I would be. Especially if I didn't have this channels rules to follow

[half igloo]

something I like about ESO is that its stuck in a time period that is never mentioned in detail aside from there being eternal war

[night ember]

I have heard that's one of the more faithful depictions

I miss not caring about bethesda games at all, I see why you guys are so depressed now lol

[feral viper]

ESO definitely feels more like a game made by fans of TES, for the most part.

Bethesda's more and more just feel like games made by people who approach their settings less with passion, and more as a checklist.

[half igloo]

something they mentioned on the Kinda Funny Podcast is that conically, every expansion and event etc is taking place on the same single day until the upcoming expansion which will finally be moving the time forward

[feral viper]

Yeah, that's one of the colossally dumb decisions they made with it. Similar to FF14, with everything through ARR to Endwalker taking place over the course of 1 year.

[night ember]

a good first step would prob be to get todd on a podcast that isn't run by industry plants or access journalists lol. Like do you think someone could explain some of this stuff to him in a way he'd be receptive to? ala kirkbride giving him an overly weird design first so he would approve the real one?

[feral viper]

Nsh

[night ember]

"todd, how is it that you make such frickin epic and engaging worlds? what's next for bethesda game studios merchandise?"

[feral viper]

That sort of thing can be incredibly touchy, and cause a lot of damage if the person involved isn't extremely well briefed.

We don't need a fiasco like the post-starfield interviews.

[night ember]

those were all super closed off though weren't they, like todd talking to phil spencer type stuff

seems like they wrote off a lot of negative feedback as twitter harassment or whatever

[feral viper]

They were, but they also allowed for candid statements.

And those statements only served to fan the flames.

[half igloo]

the kinda funny podcast got a few details via osmosis

like the dragons being in Elswyr was purely put off because he didnt want it confusing skyrim players

[feral viper]

A totally unrestrained interview or podcast would be walking into a minefield I legitimately do not think anyone at Bethesda is remotely prepared for

Especially given that even standard interviews frequently result in throwing gasoline on the fire.

[night ember]

"todd, I love starfield, especially emils work! I'm also a huge fallout fan, so please put him to work on that immediately and have him divert all of his attention to that. Would hate to see any elder scrolls getting in the way of fallout 5!"

I dunno I'm desperate at this point

or hire tomonobu itagaki to balance it out

[half igloo]

i dont share ya'lls hatred of Emil but i think things are getting too big and spread out to have Emil writing everything anymore

[night ember]

he seems like a very nice guy who absolutely should not have the job he does. People point to the DB questline as the peak of his work but I found it fell off quite hard after the house party mission.

[half igloo]

BGS alone is about to explode staff wise as they move into full production while also doing starfield and 76 support and Castles etc etc

[night ember]

the part where the actual story starts, that is lmao

[feral viper]

I don't hate him. I can't, he was involved in one of my favorite games of all time.

[half igloo]

also, depressing to think, Emil is getting up there in age, just like Pete

[feral viper]

I just don't think he's shown himself to be a good fit for the role he's in currently.

Which is entirely fine. Not everyone can fit into every sort of role.

[half igloo]

Todd seems to use necromancy and does not age

[feral viper]

He feeds on 'It just works' memes

[gloomy anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/how-did-you-find-out-tom-ellis-lucifer-morningstar-lucifer-how-did-you-know-gif-17388323

[night ember]

it's funny how I don't remember the new atlantis theme of starfield, just how annoyed I was by it

ah man that one was too much? no curse words or anything though

[feral viper]

Directly targeting individuals with that sort of harsh criticism is over the line for bashing on here

I've made the same mistake in the past, and have the warning to prove it. So you come by it honestly.

Or, at least, as honestly as being in the same club as I am is. Which is questionable

[gloomy anchor]

Please do not talk bad about bethesda employees.

[night ember]

Will do, again I'm sure they're very nice folks.

[feral viper]

Indeed. And I will say, since he's been around, the actual level design of Bethesda games has significantly improved.

[night ember]

that itagaki idea has some sauce though, something to consider

[night ember]

I have heard the skyrim dungeons are a lot better than oblivions, which is exciting

[feral viper]

Some of Fallout 4s environments, and environmental storytelling, were legitimately next level.

I think the highlight for me was the Mental Asylum in Fallout 4. Some of the stuff going on in the environmental storytelling is just straight next level.

Skyrim's dungeons have a recurring problem of frequently being loops, so you don't have to slog back through them after clearing them. But in the whole, the style, layouts and environments of them are way better than Oblivion

[night ember]

tbh I don't mind the idea of that after some of these places lmao

though there is something to be said about having locations that aren't so clearly made for the player

[feral viper]

In ruins it makes sense especially, given that most man-made structures are designed with deliberate flow, crossover, and multiple entrances.

[primal olive]

i don't like how oblivion does sithis tbh and the Skyrim one kinda stinks

[feral viper]

Even worse... The house mission doesn't really make a lot of sense if you think about it for any length of time.

Like, it's clearly a 'tribute' to the genre of Whodhnnits.

But part of what makes those engaging is the mystery of who is responsible, and the tension of the characters being unable to escape while being suspicious of eachother.

But you KNOW who the killer is. It's you. And the others CAN'T escape, because you have the only key.

So both core elements of a Whodunnit are just thrown out the window, for the window dressing if the genre

[night ember]

nah cmon that's very clearly part of the intentional subversion. I think it's thrilling but in a much more perverse way, which is quite fitting for the questline

now that I think about it it's kind of the only part of it that deals with you being a murderer in more than a jokey or excusing way. the family quest too ig

[feral viper]

I found it, in a word... Tacky.

But I could say that about a lot of Oblivion.

Of course, Clue is also one of my favourite movies soo... I was already very biased against any attempted subversion.

[night ember]

I think the contrast between the high fantasy elements and the prior weirdness of the setting works pretty well, to the point where I'd find a similar compromise (leaning more on the former) acceptable in tes6.

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/clue-flames-flames-on-the-side-of-my-face-clue-movie-mrs-white-gif-24418130

[night ember]

it also lets those weird elements be weirder if they're complemented by more "cliche" elements (even though said cliches have barely been in fantasy games of the past 10 years). Like if the whole game is weird it means the whole game has to get the mass market slop pass. If there's some weird stuff and some normal stuff it can all be less diluted.

hypothetically.

[feral viper]

I'm not going to pick more, as it will quickly spiral into excessive negativity regarding Oblivion

[night ember]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsaivbQKDYc I thought this video covered the games main narrative strengths pretty well.

and again I find the quests in this game so much better than starfield, and what I remember of skyrim. They're not filled with brilliant prose, but they take you to different parts of the world, have you do unique tasks, and often have some kind of twist or memorable element.

[bitter kestrel]

Hi folks, just a few reminders. Firstly, please keep posts constructive. We understand that not every title from various companies will be to everyone's tastes, but we ask that you remain respectful. Let's also try to keep the conversation focused on the Elder Scrolls here, if you would like to talk other titles please use their relevant channels or #off-topic - thanks!

[primal olive]

thinking about the Falmer again

[pulsar root]

Not unsurprising(No not a roast)

[primal olive]

Autism be darned this snow elf can theory craft

[sharp tulip]

So how many people see food and drink items in Elder Scrolls games, like Honningbrew mead, flin, sweet rolls, rat meat, sujamma, and think "man I wonder what that tastes like"?

[radiant moss]

Yeah, I do sometimes. Missed a chance to get that ES Cookbook collab a while back. Still kinda regret it, I like baking.

Ik Juniper berries are also slightly toxic but I'd love to know if that Mead w/ Juniper Berries was all that Ralof cracked it up to be lol

[sharp tulip]

That's probably why they got you drunk. I mean technically alcohol is just poison poisoning you.

[pulsar root]

It do be a vice, that alcohol.

[night ember]

I hope that, bethesda makes the roleplaying systems more tangible in tes6

so many parts of their games are "playing pretend" (food and sleeping that does nothing) but is also very menu driven. If not mechanical consequences some bespoke animations for this stuff could go a long way

[sharp tulip]

I hope they see the success of oblivion remaster and bring back skills like hand to hand and acrobatics, stats, and custom spells

[night ember]

I think they wll do that. Overall though bethesda's rpg systems are not as interesting as their immersive sim ones to me.

or the potential for them, that is

[sharp tulip]

That's what I loved so much about Morrowind. There was so much freedom and sandbox elements in it that I could roleplay my heart out.
You're pretty limited in Skyrim. I can't even kill Maven Black Briar or Delphine, the worst characters in the game.

[pulsar root]

Essential NPCS exist so we don't have you locking yourself out like in MW.

[sharp tulip]

I guess I wouldn't trust it with the AI in the current games
Imagine you walk into town and a character essential to the main quest is dead 80% of the way through the game because a wolf ran into town and a guard accidentally shot and killed them with an arrow

[noble verge]

I dislike essential characters. If I lock myself out of questlines in the process of killing certain hated NPCs, so be it.

[night ember]

yeah just have the game tell you, it's not like there isn't an autosave every 10 seconds

that plus having the other quest characters be super angry at you would go a long way towards immersion without having to add more reactivitiy and whatnot

[livid ingot]

I mean, I think it would be pretty easy to only allow important characters to be killed by Player while being immortal in all other situations.

[primal olive]

the issue with having it like this is stupid people would complain it has to cater to the average player, people not into lore or who get angry about consequences

[crimson edge]

Protected status exists since Skyrim.

Protected is like Essential. They can't die... Except to the player.

Like, I'm honestly not even sure why this argument still exists. If Bethesda really wants to please both, all they have to do is add an additional setting to turn all Essential NPCs to Protected only, and that's it. No worries at all of anything bad happening while still allowing players have complete freedom.

[stable zodiac]

Also, enable it on higher difficulty settings, instead of the difficulty be entirely based on damage scaling which is boring.

[primal olive]

I love having the game cater to my every need 🤑

[night ember]

I dunno, elden ring lets you kill almost anyone and people still like it. I think it's this exact "average player line" that has cursed modern bethesda games more than anything

good games provide you with a variety of emotions I find

it's like how modern racing games let players phase through eachother

no friction

[jade plover]

Because in ER you won't get a quest lock by killing npcs. It doesn't affect the game at all. If you want bethesda to do it, they have to make it like in bg 3, so by killing important npcs you will not lock yourself but get consequences and changes in the storyline

[night ember]

other souls games then. I don't really think this is true - if you're doing something for someone and then kill one of them, they're not gonna want to associate with you any more. Certain quests could have more to them but for a lot of scenarios a couple lines could do it. If the player is upset by this outcome they can reload their save and progress normally while enjoying the fact they played out that alternate scenario.

[jade plover]

I mean there is no point to allow you to kill important npcs if doesnt do anything but a quest lock

https://youtu.be/4qzGLw_2Baw?si=-1-Ifea5v94g-voL

[night ember]

I mean the point of these games is to roleplay lol

I'm def not playing oblivion for the combat or leveling system lmao

the point being that's something you can do and that's what would happen

and a diegetic quest lock

[jade plover]

I wouldn't call it role-playing you have to load save after this. To make it role-playable they must allow game to exist without any important characters

[night ember]

that just doesn't make any sense to me. My point is that players should have the ability to do all these things because it's good for everybody

players who regret their choice can revert to a recent autosave, and players who enjoy committing to their character can press on

[primal olive]

in Morrowind you don't have to follow the prophecy 😲 but you can reload if you want
seems like people liked that too tbh

[night ember]

I don't see why it's not roleplay to kill someone and lose certain opportunities. that sounds like one of the easiest scenarios to find believable

[night ember]

I talked about it a bit earlier but I think you could get a pretty immersive effect across without a crazy branching storyline for each quest. Each oblivion npc already has a unique thing to say about their hometown, in 2028 they cant have a little conversation talking about how horrified they are you cut down their client, and that they're reporting this to the town guard?

[sharp tulip]

Why are they mudcrabs if they're sometimes in sand instead? Huh???

[night ember]

horrible creatures

[sharp tulip]

Also where is our Battlespire and Shadowkey channels for all the millions of fans that still play and mod those games to this day?
Seriously it feels like a slap in the face that ||blah blah blah blah jk||

[jade plover]

It is true, but my point is it doesn't make game any deeper because it doesn't change anything. And if they do this, they should do more. If you kill vivec in morrowind, then you should be able to join dagoth ur. If you kill maven it must affect thieves guild quests. Without such things this mechanic is just useless imo

[primal olive]

if you kill Vivec you can use his wraithguard and still beat the game

[jade plover]

That's good, but it would be more interesting if they give you more opportunities with it

[night ember]

I feel like so much of playing a bethesda game is playing pretend because of how little the systems actually effect you. This would at least facilitate that more effectively, and I think it's preferrable to a bit of the immersive world magic dying every time an pc gets back up. if you kill a quest giver you get banned from the guild cause they're more important. yes ideally you could have more meaningful choices but I don't know if it's a good use of bethesda's resources

but I think it would be a step in the right direction that would allow it to be iterated on in future games, vs making quest givers fill towns instead of people

[jade plover]

They can make cities slightly bigger to have more people

[primal olive]

I just want the next game to have more mechanical content than Skyrim and I'll be happy

[sharp tulip]

If they remastered it I would want an option to side with dagoth ur, which was originally intended iirc

[primal olive]

neat

[dense marten]

So I had a fun idea to make my oblivion and Skyrim characters the same person

I would use the same build in both games and I’ll either be one of the elven races or contract vampirism in Oblivion to explain why my character is roughly 200 years old

And avoid the shivering aisle and the sheogorath quest in Skyrim to avoid the canonical end for the hero of Kvatch

[jade plover]

Why do people like UI mod that moves hp bars to enemies heads? It looks so bad but i see it so often in videos. Bethesda always had the idea of minimalistic interface. Why so many people want to have huge hp bars in the middle of screen?

[dense marten]

Personal preference

[jade plover]

i think it is time to post my message for bethesda to read again. maybe i edited it or maybe not i dont remember. anyway there are probably a lot of new people who can give me their ideas of what to implement in it and what to remove

Hi, I hope someone from BGS will read this. If anyone knows someone from Bethesda show this message to them please. I really want TES VI to be a great game, so I’m going to give them some useful advice on how to make it great. Yes, I know they’ve probably heard this a hundred times, but let’s do it once more, okay?

1. Focus on quality, not quantity.
2. Use manual work more than procedural generation. The world should be easy to navigate by landmarks without a map, like in Morrowind, Skyrim, Fallout 4 or Kingdome come deliverance. Starfield’s world was bad for exploration.
3. Same goes for dungeons/points of interest – make them handcrafted, unique, and interesting. Don’t make random appearing identical POIs again.
4. Рaving four hold capitals with the same appearance sucks, don't do things like this.
5. Give NPCs good AI again. AI overhaul mod for Skyrim has good AI, Starfield barely has AI at all.
6. Make more different situations for quests, like was in Oblivion. Not just “take a thing from a cave” quests.
7. Make dialogues deeper and more meaningful. Give npc’s more info to tell.
8. Make dungeons more dangerous, with unexpected traps and valuable treasures – again, like in Morrowind. It would also be nice to make them darker so night eye and torches will become useful.
9. Make cities bigger than in skyrim but not as big as Novigrad. It still must have unique npcs and must be possible to explore completely.
10. Make ebony, glass and daedric armor rare again. Remember they relate specifically to morrowind because it is made out of morrowind resources. It’s better to add just few sets of them, but also create new super cool equipment related to territory of the game.
11. Make some ancient ruins less linear. If lore says it was a city – make it look like a city, not a tunnel. Bad example – Alftand, Saarthal. Good example – Nchuand-Zel, Labyrinthian.
    There will be part 2

12. No level-scaled artifacts – all artifacts should have fixed effects, like in Morrowind. More powerful artifacts must be harder to get.
13. Make Daedric artifacts special and incredibly powerful. Bad example – Ebony Mail (5 poison damage). Good example – Spellbreaker (creates a ward), Wabbajack (does Wabbajacking)
14. Make more artifacts in general, I mean more nee artifacts then taken from previous games
15. Bring back the ability to loot gear from killed enemies.
16. Balance crafting – player-made gear should not be stronger than unique artifacts.
17. Also, give us pants back and a second ring slot too.
18. Add more spells and more variety – each magic school should have both offensive and defensive spells. Good example of variable magic is Baldur’s gate 3 or DnD in general.
19. Come up with or find more unique creatures not seen in every other fantasy.
20. Add more potion and enchantment effects. Improve crafting systems in general so that players don't have to create 100 daggers and then enchant them all to progress. This is nonsense.
21. Add immersion – allow players to complete most quests in different ways. Not just choosing sides, but truly different methods: different ways of getting information, infiltrating quest locations, etc.
22. Make Speechcraft important, so it’s needed to get quest info or allow to finish quests differently. Starfield was pretty good at it but you can do better.
23. Add more RPG elements – race and abilities should influence dialogues and be significant in some quests.
24. Don’t waste too many resources on settlement building, it is not the main part of gameplay.
25. Make poisons and diseases more common and more dangerous. Also add dangerous environmental conditions to the game, like in Fallout 4 and Starfield, so that resistance to poisons and diseases will makes sense.
26. Add more evil or morally gray characters.
    There will be part 3

27. Not a suggestion, just a personal opinion – the game doesn’t have to be photorealistic. It’s fantasy, and fantasy feels better when stylized. It also puts less strain on systems.
28. Ask players (make a vote or something) what kind of lockpicking they like more and do something to it. I personally like lockpicking in oblivion and starfield more than in skyrim and fallout 4.
29. Another opinion – consider hiring Clamavi De Profundis to write songs for bards.
    If I forgot something important, others can reply and I’ll add more to this message.

what do you guys think about it?

[frank ledge]

Because providing the user with more information like enemy health, level, and even a unique boss bar for certain monsters isn't a bad thing, plus the health bars over their heads are not huge whatsoever.

[eager remnant]

Personally I prefer enemy health bars to be situated at the top of the screen.

[livid ingot]

I prefer the Overgrowth method. No health bars

[jade plover]

Its not more information, its the same information that is initially at the top of the screen

[jade plover]

Good idea as well

[livid ingot]

Of course Overgrowth has a very different combat system compared to the TES games, but it's definitely the system I like the best as far as handling health goes. Probably not good for handling bosses but it's great for average enemies

[frank ledge]

Nowhere in the vanilla game are you provided with enemy levels or health by number. You only get a numberless bar and the enemy type.

[pulsar root]

No health bars is notta.

[stable zodiac]

UI setting enemy bars: Off, HUD, Enemy heads

[jade plover]

Why do you even need to know level of enemies in skyrim? Its useless information if you dont use mods that turn off level scaling and quick saves

[timid drum]

Dude its just personal preference, chill

[frank ledge]

That's not how level scaling works
Skyrim is split into encounter zones, and every encounter zone has a minimum level and a maximum level
Even when playing the vanilla game, there are still locations and dungeons that are too high level at certain points of the game
Take the Labyrinthian for example: it has a minimum level of 24

Add mods, and encounter zones become even more difficult, minimum levels get raised etc
Just because you can't see the point of it, doesn't mean it's useless
The fact that it's one of the most downloaded UI mods says otherwise

[feral viper]

Oblivion was the only one that used full level scaling for the world. Skyrim, FO4, FO76 and Starfield all use region leveling and levels zones instead.

[tardy tiger]

I know Morrowind had creature scaling but I have no idea if any applied to generic enemies like Bandits.

[eager remnant]

Morrowind did not have scaling, it had leveling (i.e. fixed-level enemies replaced by higher level fixed-level enemies). To this, Oblivion added scaling (i.e. certain low-level enemies had the capacity to gain levels right along with the player).

[crimson edge]

Skyrim didn't used region leveling scaling.

[crimson edge]

Leveling scaling is when the game replaces or levels up low level enemies to scale with the player, so yes. Morrowind has level scaling. Otherwise, by your logic. Skyrim doesn't have leveling scaling either because Skyrim ditched the Oblivion's uncap method and made sure that the higher level enemies have a proper cap and do not level with the player so insanely (only a few bosses, guards, and named NPCs will level up with the player in Skyrim).

Basically, a Draugr Deathlord in Skyrim will always be level 30 unlike in Oblivion where that same kind of enemy will always be the same level as the player's level with a minimum of 30 (or probably 15 since Oblivion's is a base of 1-25 system for enemies while Skyrim is 1-50).

Also, while Morrowind does use a Levelled Creature system too to determine what enemies will spawn, Morrowind also had A LOT of pre-placed enemies that will always be there no matter what the player's level is... They just moved away from having a lot less pre-placed enemies to more Levelled Creature placements in Oblivion, and overly did the level scaling system... Luckily, they fixed it in Skyrim due to the outcry against the very harsh level scaling in Oblivion.

[feral viper]

Yes it did, just not particularly well. Many dungeons has set starting levels, whole specific areas of the map has their own level range.

It's not particularly good, but it is there. Fallout 4 did a much better job with it.

[crimson edge]

I don't know a single dungeon that has a set starting level in Skyrim. The only set starting level I think Skyrim even has is for the snowy areas, as those areas will only spawn the Snow variants of the animals, beyond that... Every dungeon always is levelled to the player when they enter it, unless it was previously cleared.

Clearing a location in Skyrim locks it to the level it was cleared at.

There are some set enemy spawns in Skyrim, only a few though.

[feral viper]

Fair, I may have it backwards. It's been awhile since I went through the CK to go over the details and I'm not in a position to double check

[frank ledge]

No, you are correct and Jusey is wrong
I'll pick 3 at random:
Broken Oar Grotto - min 6
Forsaken Cave - min 6
Red Eagle Redoubt - min 14

Every encounter zone has a set minimum level, but not every one has a set maximum level

[fiery jasper]

I've never played Shadowkey or Redguard do you guys think its worth a play?

[frank ledge]

Neither are worth it, though I'm not sure why'd you'd want to play Shadowkey

[fiery jasper]

I love elder scrolls games. I think dagger fall has one of the best storylines of all the elder scrolls games, despite being from like 1996 and a huge pain to play. I wasn't sure if either of them would be the same (banger storyline despite the age). I don't know much about either beyond "they exist"

[frank ledge]

Well, Shadowkey is an extremely dated mobile game with little content, and Redguard is poorly written and janky
At least with Redguard you can explore Hammerfell though

[fiery jasper]

Interesting. Thank you!

[frank ledge]

By Hammerfell I mean one island off the coast though (Stros M'Kai)

[crimson edge]

I'm pretty sure Forsworn, and also the Falmer, just have a higher minimum level in general though.

Cuz they are just tougher enemies.

[fiery jasper]

Yeah the falmer I think have higher health and are a little "smarter" than other enemies. Same with certain Dwarven automotons (spelling?)

Trolls are another that are more difficult

[crimson edge]

Okay, I double checked and yeah. Every dungeon generally speaking has a minimum level. It's just most of the time, it is very low that you don't notice it and that's my fault. (Most of them are a minimum level of 2 to 8).

All Forsworn camps do have a minimum level of 14, Falmer hives are 18 minimum. Also, any place that has a masked Dragon Priest has a minimum of level 24.

[trim spruce]

Is there a way to relocate the save folder? It defaults to C but I have the game installed onto another drive?

I'm on Oblivion Remastered

[frank ledge]

The only way I could think of that is by using a mod manager
Wouldn't know how to do it manually

[tawny cove]

I just finally pieced together that "Silt Sunrise", "Through the Valleys" and "The Jerall Mountains" share a motif. It's been gnawing at the back of my head for years but I never looked into it.

[primal olive]

ngl the next TES needs Morrowind esque levelled enemies

[noble verge]

My favorite part of Morrowind's enemy leveled lists was the fact that Greater Bonewalkers stopped appearing in Ancestral Tombs once you got high enough level.

I hate those things so much.

[primal olive]

me personally I instakills them

[jade plover]

is anyone waiting for skyblivion?

[feral viper]

I'm not so sure.

At least, not in its entirety.

I'm more of a fan of a mixed leveling model, which allows for a more dynamic worldspace.

[tardy tiger]

Morrowind's levelling also means you don't tie certain enemies to areas. Like how Ogrims won't appear at low level

Skyrims world design fits better. Like Giant camps. As that sort of thing can be expanded to other areas like Minotaur areas of Cyrodiil or Daedric infestations of Morrowind.

[feral viper]

Yeah. Like many things, I think Skyrim's approach leans better, but it's not there yet. And it's not quite far enough in the right direction to really compensate for the superior aspects of Morrowind's approach yet.

But it's got far more potential. And that potential should be pushed.

[jade plover]

I think level scaling in skyrim is almost perfect. The only problem is at very high levels there will be too many very strong enemies. And its annoying when every draugr is a deathlord

In morrowind its not perfect. When you can meet any daedra at any daedric shrine it makes sense. But when you can meet any animal at any part of vvardenfell its not good, they must be region related for more immersion. But it wouldnt work in morrowind exactly, because there are more regions than animals

[feral viper]

Yeah, my problem. With Skyrim's is how it handles dungeons mostly. The overworld is pretty good, with specific areas inhabited by specific creatures, while the rest is largely a wilderness of random critters.

Though I also think that Dungeons should be handled as Spawn Groups, not as specific spawns.

For instance, you have set Spawn Groups, such as Wolves. Bandits. Necromancers. Etc.

When a dungeon is populated, it selects from the available spawn groups, then populats the spawn points with entities drawn from that group.

That way, the actual entities can be more dynamic. A particular cave may have bandits in it one time, a pack for wolves the next.

[raven helm]

Man screw skyblivion there needs to be a skywind or obliviwind. Something like that that makes morrowind actually playable to someone who has never played it before

[primal olive]

at least give us max level enchants on unique items, having to avoid content intentionally to not get a worse version is absolutely STUPID

plus you shouldn't be able to bum rush the hyper hard zones right out of start

[frank ledge]

Morroblivion has existed for ages, and Skywind has been in development for years
Like calm down, lol

[jade plover]

I dont think anyone would want to clean dungeon more than once. Bethesda thought this is a good idea and made starfield, you se how it went

[feral viper]

Starfield also has hundreds of more dungeons, scattered around a vastly larger area.

Even in Oblivion, I found myself in the same place more than once. And it's the game I've played the least of.

[jade plover]

You can make it playable with mods. Skywind would be nice though, but it seems devs abandoned it

[jade plover]

It has 89 dungeons and around 40 of them respawn many times in different planets with different enemies inside. The biggest 💩 bethesda ever made. Literally the worst idea

[feral viper]

That low? That's a real surprise. But I haven't actually looked into the CK side of it.

Considering how many times those repeat on planets, I find it hard to believe the execution is that simple
Though it is that bad.

My suspicion is that, in fact, there are 89 dungeons and 40 of them are relating types that appear in multiple locations.

[jade plover]

Some of them have few versions. Like if its "abandoned mine" it may have 2 or 3 itirations. So after you found it once next time you found a mine there will be 30% chance its the same. So maybe its not that bad but even if you multiply it by 3 it will still be less POIs than skyrim has

I didnt play and only googled about it because i was wondering why people complain about finding the same place on different planets several times

[feral viper]

I still stand by my point. I frequently end up revisiting sites in both Morrowind and Skyrim, and having the exact same enemies in the exact same places is frankly just silly..

[jade plover]

So you want them to be randomized like in morrowind?

[feral viper]

They weren't entirely there, either. Dungeons with humanoids often had literal named bandits in them that just remained dead when cleared.

[jade plover]

Its immersive

[feral viper]

Not for me it isn't

Though, no Bethesda game is immersive in my opinion. No RPG is for that matter.

The only games I would call immersive, are Stardew Valley, and 4x games.

[jade plover]

You can enter every house and see who lives there. Its very immersive, i know only 3 game series where you can do it

[feral viper]

You can do that in the Sims too. And that's not immersive.

Immersion is a quality of good game design. It's not a design in and if it's self.

I frequently argue against trying to design for immersion, and instead just design good games. If you do that, Immersion comes naturally from it.

[jade plover]

The witcher is a good game but not immersive at all

[feral viper]

Neither is TES.

[pulsar root]

Yeah thats just not true at all but ok.

[feral viper]

At least not for me. For me, Immersion is getting so involved you forget about the world around you, losing hours in a game without coming up for air.

No game ever made makes me feel like I'm in that world. That's just not a quality the medium can actually achieve, IMO.

[jade plover]

You can take everything from enemies, you can enter every house and talk to every npc, you can pick up almost any object, you can use any weapon or magic as a main play style and it will be effective, you can take any plant and make a potion out of it. It is immersive and it is more immersive than most other games

[feral viper]

Yup, and none of that is immersive.

I can do that in Kenshi too. Doesn't make Kenshi immersive.

[jade plover]

It does, kenshi is one of the most immersive games

[feral viper]

I understand that it's immersive to you.

But it's not immersive to me. Nothing about that makes a game immersive to me. Which is kind of the whole point.

Different things end up immersing different people. So focusing on the idea of immersion is inherently going to only fixate on a single group of players and their experiences.

[jade plover]

Thats if you think about meaning of immersion as a word in general

If we talk about games characteristics - people usually understand immersion as a level of your possible interaction with a world. The more interactive things you have - the more immersive the game

[feral viper]

No, people assume everyone else agrees with their use of a nebulous word and is talking about the same thing. Which is why I was specific.

I've heard 'Realism', I've heard 'Dynamic', I've heard 'Lived in' and 'Natural' and 'Most Options.

I've heard almost as many definitions of Immersion as people I've talked to about it. Which is why I think it's a useless concept. Everyone has their own meanings their own goals their own interpretation.

Which is of zero value when designing anything.

[feral viper]

As least where I'm coming from, having the exact same dungeons with the exact same encounters every time is incredible static and boring. Both in repeated playthroughs and in long playthroughs.

[midnight stag]

Do you think why Bethesda has been so quiet about es6 that they are planning something soon

[livid ingot]

I think they've been quiet about TES VI because it's still a long way off.

[midnight stag]

What if they say something about a reveal not a full reveal just something to let you know that they have a plan at the Xbox showcase yeah I know it’s a long shot but I hold out hope

Because it has been mentioned on the web quite a lot

But nothing set in stone

[pulsar root]

We'll have to wait and see.

[midnight stag]

Tell you the truth I would like the next gen Xbox for the next es6 but not the price do to being in America

[jade plover]

So you want random procgened dungeons like is starfield instead of handcrafted?

[feral viper]

No. Not exactly.

I want a mix of variable dungeons, and narrative dungeons. With the narrative ones becoming variable after they've been cleared.

But it's almost 2 am, I'll have to explain it more in detail later.

[jade plover]

Well, i want all dungeons to be narrative with unique interiors, environmental storytelling etc

[jade plover]

https://youtube.com/shorts/qQsR67aYVH0?si=z4qvYYHsXNIkIFVZ

[sudden temple]

I hope the glass armor in the next game looks or has a more morowing esk vibe to it with the jagged kristals

[jade plover]

I hope there wont be glass armor in the next game. This voulcanic glass can be mined only in morrowind, it wont make sense to have glass armor in hammerfell. To explain such thing in skyrim they basically changed glass armor to stone armor because it made out of malachite

It would be better if they add glass armor from morrowind as one special set, but wont have it as a regular armor

And they should add more new armor related to the region

Btw is there any lore explanation why ebony armor in morrowind and oblivion looks imperial but in skyrim it looks elvish?

[jade plover]

https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/1iuhakp/extas1s_the_elder_scrolls_vi_is_hammerfell/?rdt=58896

Do you think its real?

[violet lily]

Nope. People have been saying this kind of thing since the teaser was dropped, and it's basically just folks wishlisting and writing it as if it was reality

[swift owl]

I mean with the direction they've been heading concerning settlment building in fallout 4 and spacecraft building in starfield it would make sense for them to implement these features

[jade plover]

I thought so,but it was said by insider who said some truth before and predicted something

[violet lily]

articles like this one have basically been getting reposted every year since the teaser, I really wouldn't put any stock in them

[jade plover]

Agree, but i dont think naval battles are possible for example. Elder scrolls dont have pistols and cannons. What will they fight with? People trowing fireballs from the deck? I dont think it could work

[swift owl]

There are cannons in the elder scrolls redguard

[violet lily]

Also if you follow the link through it's just some rando's YT video

[jade plover]

Agree, but again, there is nothing impossible in that list, except for sea battles. So it can be partially truth, or may be not truth at all

[jade plover]

I think they retconned it, because we see a lot of ships in later games and non of them have canons

[swift owl]

There are still explosives in the later titles such as the fire pots in skyrim and explosive crossbow bolts in dawnguard DLC

whether or not it's specifically gunpowder is not clear but they have many similar alternatives

[jade plover]

So ships will have enchanted bolts instead of canons?

Well, it can exist, but im not sure how lore accurate it will be

Of course there are explosives but we have never seen any weapon on ship, or i have never seen it

Just found this

Cant sent picture but there was a one card in tes legends where you can see a canon on a ship, so they must exist

But now i have a new question, why canons are not used anywhere else

[swift owl]

yeah the Iliac sorcerer card has it

[jade plover]

But it was cut off in a game though, you only can see canons on art, but not on a card

[swift owl]

tbh it still fits their theme of medieval fantasy only slightly more technologically advanced so I highly doubt they would stray away from implementing them

[jade plover]

Im not good at history but i think muskets were invented before cannons, so if they add canons it would make sense to add usual guns too and this would not fit the atmosphere

[swift owl]

a fantasy world doesn't have to fit the same timeline as real life

and there's an infinite amount of ways they can justify cannons over muskets such as fire salts being more potent than conventional gunpowder

[austere oasis]

Maybe only Redguards have access to the technology for Canons or with advancements in magic they aren't necessary anymore? Could be we haven't actually seen any real Warships in the mainline games but there is that one quest in Skyrim where they bombard an island with i assume catapults

[feral viper]

The explanation I came up with was that the Redguard USED to have cannons, but as the Ansei rose to power, the old ways of war diminished. And most of what was left sink with Yokuda.

In a sort of reverse-Japan, guns gave way to swords.

Albeit magic swords.

[tardy tiger]

I don't think there was any cannons in Redguard.

I can find Imperial Ironclads but I've seen and heard nothing about cannons themselves.

[tight charm]

There are no cannons in TESA: Redguard. It's a very old myth.

We have an obscure reference to cannons in a joke book that has appeared only in Daggerfall, and there's a cannon on a Legends card.

OOG material has mentioned cannons, but I'm not going to debate the validity of OOG material in the larger scope of TES here. 😂

[feral viper]

Indeed. That's an old rumour born of half remembered explosions in the games end sequence.

But people have gone back and checked every single location, and there are no visible cannons anywhere

An elaborate mechanics wheelchair? Yes.

Cannons, no.

[swift owl]

oh wow you're right

but anyways use a magic blaster or something who cares, naval combat doesn't explicitly mean cannons

[shell swan]

There are also explosive barrels in some caves!

[feral viper]

True

[feral viper]

Arguably the coolest periods of Naval history didn't

https://tenor.com/view/naval-combat-over-simplified-the-first-punic-war-rome-carthage-gif-27031413

[feral viper]

My favourite are the Roman Quinquereme.

How do we, a land-based fighting force, compete with the superior naval skill of the Carthaginians?

What if we put siege towers in our ships, so we can board theirs with Legionaries?

[ripe ruin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLjVwfUABvw is a fairly interesting watch especially the part of the growing pains ramping up to starfield development. hope they worked out the kinks for TESVI

[primal olive]

who is gonna bother using cannons when a spell will do the same thing much faster without reloading?

[feral viper]

Because A: some cultures distrust magic, B: it's quicker to learn gunnery than it is to lean magic, and C: to be honest, refined firearms are way more dangerous than any magic we've seen at a general usage level

The trick is getting past the early, clunky stage. Once you get to Musketry, you're already ahead of 90% of magic users.

[primal olive]

I think guns like that would still detract from TES tbh

[pulsar root]

99% of the time I agree.

[feral viper]

So do I, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't make sense

[primal olive]

if I had a nickel for every time TEs almost added spears and not the boring roster of weapons I'd have two nickels

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/dZvWfwXqex like bruh they're literally fighting with spears (using an old staff anim ik)

I don't even care if Falmer don't become a playable race I just want spears or polearms in another TES game <\3

[jade plover]

Only if bethesda will finally make different animation for different weapons

I will add it to my list, good idea

[primal olive]

if it's not swing swing or staff it doesn't exist to modern Bethesda /hj

[jade plover]

Nothing prevents them from making it

[jade plover]

Dudes, here is the idea of how to make blacksmithing better. It doesn't have to be a skill, but a passive ability. Here's how it should work: you basically have the ability to create rawhide armor. When you create a full set of armor, you will have the ability to create iron and leather armor. But to create it, you need to find a recipe and rare resources. Recipes must exist in limited quantities and be located in specific locations or be given as a reward for some quests. Resources should also be more interesting, for example, not just skin should be used, but the skin of a specific animal. Not just iron, but an alloy of iron and something else. Further, when you create, for example, a complete set of iron armor and weapons, you become able to create steel armor and weapons. Next, you need to find a recipe and rare resources again, etc. In this case, you won't have to create hundreds of daggers but the system still will have some challenge

[feral viper]

I go a similar, though different direction.

More and more, I think Crafting skills are problematic in the games. And they all need some serious work to address.

[jade plover]

I think alchemy is fine

Enchant is not, but idk how to make it better

[feral viper]

Alchemy isn't alchemy. It's mixing potions in the bath tub as a child.

[pulsar root]

speaking from experience? /badjoke

[primal olive]

Epiphany

Why don't they just make an alternate timeline game like Destiny Rising to avoid issues with adding extra races

[feral viper]

You know it.

I also went down a rabbit hole in Highschool regarding Alchemy and Magic, and can confidently say that what we engage with in TES bears no resemblance to Alchemy, OR chemistry.

On top of that, it's not really mechanically that solid to begin with. It lacks major decision making and selective dynamics that would make it a truely functional system, and is instead a slap-dash match the effect system.

The inability to select for individual effects, the inability to control potency, and the inability to control primary behaviours (Potion or Poison) are major failings of the system.

ESO kinda addresses this overly simplistic dynamic, using Water as an ingredient to gate potency, but I think it's using it for the wrong role.

Waters role in the final product is as the Solvent. Which I think is a good way to inject clear control over what you're making. Make Solvents an actual component, which dictates the base behavior of the product.

Water makes slow-acting elixirs.

Tars make Poisons.

Alcohols make Potions (there's a reason for this).

Oils make grenades.

That way you have clear and explicit control over what type of end product you're going to make. No more mixing 2 things and it coming out as a poison when you expect a potion (which was rare as the system prioritises the positive stuff over the negative when you have counter pairings, but could happen).

[jade plover]

it is what it is, do you have any ideas how to make it more intersting? we could have mini game where you have to crumble or squeeze or boil some ingredients before cooking, i think it would be fun couple of times, but then it will get really annoying imo. because it will take half an hour to make few potions

remember elder scrolls is not a simulator, difficult and realistic systems will reject a lot of players. so idk how to make alchemy simple but interesting

[jade plover]

or they can just add a new button in alchemy menu where you choose if its potion or poison, because basically the only difference is if you going to drink it or put on a sword

[jade plover]

i dont think it will change the system that much, it will still be slap-dash match the effect system but with one more ingredient

i need to check how it works in kcd because this is the best example of good rpg at the moment

[jade plover]

kcd has it literally like this, which is too complicated for the elder scrolls

okay i will come up with a good idea later

i came up with a good idea

it is your idea actually but i expanded it i think

we should have a cauldron in which we will cook our potion soup. Step 1, choose a base, liquid for drinking, thick for spreading on weapons, something in between for throwing. Step 2, processes the ingredients, you can divide any ingredient into sub-ingredients, each of which will contain one of three effects. (yes, 4 different effects for one plant are too much). Step 3, mix the ingredients: let one pot hold up to 20 ingredients and you can stack the same ones. The strength of the soup's effect will depend on the proportions of the ingredients. For example, we pour water, and 20 petals of Blue Mountain Flower. We get a 20 hp healing potion. Example 2, pour water, 10 petals of Blue Mountain Flower and 10 fins of Histcarp. We get a 10 hp stamina recovery potion. And most importantly, what determines the strength of the potion? From the ingredients, let the Blue Mountain Flower give 1 hp regeneration, and the Daedra Heart 10 hp regeneration.

maybe the last part is already working like this i don't know for sure

no i checked wheat and daedra heart have the same regen level, should be fixed

@feral viper what do you think?

i feel like i occupied this chat

[feral viper]

Nah, just at work. I'll get back in a few.

[eager remnant]

My favorite crafting was in Vanguard: Saga Of Heroes. But possibly it might be too complex for TES. https://vanguard.fandom.com/wiki/Getting_Started_(Crafting)

[feral viper]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean we can't look at it for inspiration.

[feral viper]

I have played with similar ideas in the past, so I think you're on the right track, personally.

[jade plover]

Why bethesda is hiding the location of the new game?

Everytime when anyone asks Todd Howard about it he refuses to answer

Whats the point to keep it as a secret?

[radiant moss]

Because they've already made the first mistake of dropping ES6's announcement too early - that's why we're in an endless loop of speculation. They're probably nowhere near finished - drip feeding info will likely generate really high expectations b/c of how long we're waiting, it's happened to countless games.

Also possible they don't have anything completely finished, or finished enough they want to showcase it right now (or that it won't perform well). We've seen some behind the scenes for CK2 from Starfield and whatnot, face-scanning, etc. So maybe the time isn't right?

[jade plover]

We are already have high expectations. 13 years passed after skyrim, this game must be significently better and not be another starfield

[jade plover]

Maybe you are right

But the game was in development not less than for 2 years and fans are starving. So that would be nice if they tell us the name of the game at least

Well, there were rumors that they going to tell something this july on xbox presentation

[pulsar root]

No expectations to have until we see something.

[primal olive]

if no spears we riot (by buying the game and enjoying it anyway)

[crimson edge]

I kinda wish all weapons from previous titles to make a surprise return, but I doubt that.

Spears & Flails would be great in TES6.

[primal olive]

awawi

but yeah honestly we need "new" stuff (they can keep the smaller categories still)

like blunt can have maces, mallets, sticks and cudgels, and still count as blunt stuff

[crimson edge]

Honestly, we only need three melee skills. Blade, Blunt, & Polearm.

[primal olive]

honestly yeah lol

idc if glaives and spears have the same animations tbh, fists literally have their own animation set

[crimson edge]

Oh, ye'h. Hand-to-Hand will be it's own skill too, so that's four melee skills. Still, you can easily cover everything.

Blade will be for swords & axes.
Blunt will be for hammers, maces, etc.
Polearm for Spears, Staffs, Halbreds, etc.
Hand-to-Hand is obvious.
Marksman can still cover Bows, Crossbows, and thrown weapons.

[primal olive]

that works yeah

I'd still prefer levelling them separately but it's easier to code that way probably

[bitter kestrel]

[jade plover]

It seems like something dissapeared

[feral viper]

Deep breath

1 Handed Weapon
2 Handed Weapon
Marksman
Hand to Hand

Those are ideal.

Why? Because each Skill represents not a specific weapon type, but rather a general way of fighting. This allows for you to cover the skill overlap of particular weapons, while also maintaining diverse gameplay dynamics.

It's not entirely accurate, as there's actually huge overlap between 1 handed and 2 handed fighting, as well as unarmed and fist weapons, but...

The problem with weapon specific skills, is you end up with a lack of logical overlap. There is no reason a Swordmaster should become an incompetent moron the instant they pick up a 1 handed mace.

Weight distribution and finer points are going to be different, sure, but food work, posture, general stances, etc. are all going to overlap.

So, you use Skills as generalised categories of broad approaches. You then use Perks within those skills to specialise.

This is the real brilliance of Skyrim's system, which was hamstrung by the visual choices of the Constellations.

[tight charm]

The visual choice of the constellations was great artistically but definitely had its functional drawbacks.

[feral viper]

Yeah. The glory of the system is it allows for specialisation WITHIN skills. Which means you can have millions of possible permutations depending on what you want your character to be.

I think a causal application of the Elder Scrolls aesthetics would work better in future.

The sort of fractal, runic starchart instead of a specific constellation

[jade plover]

If we think about skills i agree. Lets imagine bethesda will add actuall skills in skill tree instead of damage buffs. So in this case it is more logically to have same skills for one handed sword and one handed mace then for one handed sword and two handed sword

But then spears must be separated tree, because i cant imagine same skills for claymore and spear

If we believe leaks they will probably remove it at all and make xp system like in fallout 4 and starfield. Then it will be possible to make different skill trees for every type of weapon because player wont have to use it to have progress

[feral viper]

I think there's room for those sorts of things too, but they need to be handled smartly. A 10% damage bonus isn't going to mean Jack squat, and just serves as a sink.

A 25% bonus has more impact, but alone becomes too automatic.

A 25% Damage Bonus, a 25% Attack Speed Increase, and a 25% Criticism Strike Bonus though...

If all 3 have 5 levels, that's 15 character levels to complete just 3 Perks. Which in isolation is fine, but if you've got dozens of hundreds of perks, that's a lot of direct investment. Having more exotic Perks, like specific moves (Techniques) and peculiar interactions, suddenly it becomes less 'How quick can I complete this' and more 'What can I get away with so I can invest in other things?'

Similarly, despite the Gygaxism, 1 handed maces actually have more in common with 1 handed swords, than they do 2 handed maces (which were incredibly rare anyway). So keeping things to 1 and 2 Handed is both more realistic (though still not actually very realistic) and better for gameplay design.

[feral viper]

As for this, I hadn't heard that rumour.

If true, I'll be bold and say that would be colossally stupid. The Learn By Doing approach to TES is about the only defining characteristic it HAS. Doing away with that would strip the last bit of soul from the franchise, and I seriously doubt Bethesda is totally oblivious to how iconic a characteristic it is.

Also, of note... No one uses Claymores and other 2 Handed swords properly in Fantasy anyway. They were more often used more as a short versatile Spear-Axe hybrid, with the largest 2-handed Swords literally being welded like spears (hence why Zweihanders had the foregrip).

2 handed Swords have always traditionally been more short-hafted, long-headed spears.

[jade plover]

if you dont now how to improve the system its better to remove it imo
this skills stuff has several big issues

1. progress slows down too much when you reach 90, and to get 100 is a torture. And this type of progression is not suitable for skills that you cant use in your normal playthrough often. To normally progress pickpocketing you have to stop playing the game and go still money from people. To progress smiting you have to stop playing and go to make 1000 daggers. To progress conjuration you have to use soul trap on a dead crab for half an hour. It must be redone or removed because the way it works is bad
2. you cant rebuilt your charater without starting a new game (in skyrim) because using low level magic when you at level 50 isnt fun
3. you just stop leveling up when your main skills are 100, so if you played all game as a warrior you are forced to use magic to level up more

for me fallout system is much better than in skyrim, because

1. it has attributes that give passive bonuses
2. i don't have to make 10 000 grenades to level up chemistry

[jade plover]

mod Ordinator is a good example

not the best, but its the way they should work on

[primal olive]

ironically you chose the worst two weapons to compare

you can use claymores like spears well enough lol (or was it great swords)

[feral viper]

1: Yes. That encourages specialisation and discouraged being too broad.

2: Again, that encourages specialisation And discourages being too broad.

3: Initially yes, though that changed with the Dragonborn Patch. But again, that encourages specialisation and discourages being too broad.

IN FACT, point 3 was what made it explicitly impossible to master everything in Skyrim (prior to Dragonborn) for the first time since ARENA. Contrary to what the Jack-of-all-trades complaints about Skyrim were, it was objectively impossible to master everything.

Now, I'm of course biased. I don't like EXP systems in these sorts of games. They're arbitrary nonsense which just lead to relentless grinding to progress, rather than forcing you to engage in relevant activities.

I can play Fallout, and max out all my Melee Perks without ever punching someone. It's ludicrous.

With Quest for Glory long in the ground, TES is really the last of the Learn By Doing RPG games out there. Getting rid of the last mote of identity is had left, and just jumping face first into the slurm of generic RPGs, would be a mortal blow.

Kinda like that one movie where the old man gets turned into a hand puppet... A lifeless facade for someone else, devoid of identity.

[tight charm]

I really hope they don’t implement a casual experience system in TES VI. I doubt they will, but there’s always a subtle worry in my heart that they’ll oversimplify.

[primal olive]

@tight charm sick Nerevar av

[tight charm]

Thanks! It’s the anniversary art BGS posted.

[jade plover]

It is impossible to master everything in fallout 4 too, and it has specialization as well you cant have all skills, but it doesnt have issues from skyrim

[jade plover]

When you have to make daggers and then enchant them, when you have to beat shadowmere and when you have to spam spells for 30 mins in it also grinding to progress

[pulsar root]

The solution would make skill level up more smooth and less grindy not remove the whole system in general.

[feral viper]

It's admittedly been about 2 years (just before Starfield) since I played Fallout 4... But I wasn't aware of any mutually exclusive perks in the game.

[primal olive]

the only perks like that in fo4 are quest ones lol

there's something funny to me about how a lot of the work is done by fans

[crimson edge]

Sounds like to me that you just don't like RPGs.

I like having skills, I want to be able to grind them out, and get better at skills. Then level up to make my stats/attributes stronger as well. It's fun.

[tight charm]

Only ones I can think of are the ones in CHA tied to player sex.

[jade plover]

I like rpgs but tes level up system is just not well made, it needs some changes

[jade plover]

If you know how to make it better and remove grinding, you should write it, so bethesda can think about your idea

[primal olive]

I want what Oblivion has

[jade plover]

Not the best too, all abilities upgrades passively, and its boring

But yes, they should definitely return back attributes, thats one of the main things in rpg

And they have to be usefull in dialogues

[torpid mauve]

I remember joking around TES6 taking 10 years when the announcement trailer came out but I don't think it was a joke lmao

Average bethesda stuff I hope they don't butcher the game when they release it in 5 years

[livid ingot]

Yup. It's a big lingering question - can Bethesda still make the magic happen?

Only one way to find out!

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/viking-man-leaps-ice-water-gif-12813214525354223849

[feral viper]

Agreed. I actually think Oblivion is hands down the worst expression of the Learn by Doing system.

[feral viper]

I think a major problem with TES' approach isn't the system it's self, but rather what some of it feeds into.

Ultimately, Skills need to be Activity Oriented. The Activity is what drives their progression. So it needs to be diverse enough to not feel monotonous, while being focused enough that it doesn't cross into other Skills and what they do.

Sneak, for instance, is often impaired by Armour. Light Armour constantly infringes on the Stealth activity, taking away from Sneak and it's identity..

Smithing is the opposite problem. It's TOO focused, TOO limited in its identity and activities, that it becomes monotonous.

[jade plover]

if sneak levels up when you deal stealth damage why conjuartion doesn't level up when your summons deal damage

thats weird

[feral viper]

Because the actual activities are very poorly thought out.

Beyond hitting things with Weapons, Bethesda seems to struggle to figure out what activity should fit with what Skill.

For instance... Moving.

Seems simple, right? Well, the overlap between the function of Moving, and the function of Moving in Armour, is part of why we lost Athletics.

Because you basically had two Skills feeding off the same activity.

So it was made a feature of Armour skills directly instead of that crossover.

Rather than, you know, develop more relevant activities to clearly define both.

So, I think that having a clear idea of the Skill you want, and what they do, is actually an important concept stage. It informs the type of activities you want to include.

Unfortunately, based on what we are told, we are probably well past that stage in development. And adding new activity systems is complicated after the fact.

[jade plover]

they tried to add more skill activities in starfield

didnt work, most people complained about it because it was grinding

what if we separate those things. we have xp for killing enemies, doing quests etc and we can use xp to expand attributes (strenght, agility and all that). But we will have activities for skill branches not related to xp. Like if you kill 100 enemies with a sword you will get a sword skill point. If your flame atronach killed 100 enemies you get conjuration skill point . Not the best activities i made here but the point is they must be implemented in gameplay well, so player wont have to grind it. It should just be reached automatically

it is like an idea of how to make system from starfield better

because idea was good, but how they made it is not

for example "Fall below 25% health 15 times and fully heal". you wont do that if you don't know you have to

Successfully Instigate 50 different people. Same thing

and what are this tasks for if you still need to level up for this

[crimson edge]

I'm pretty sure light armor has no effect on your stealth in any Elder Scrolls game. It's when you wear heavy armor (or medium armor in case of Morrowind) is when you get a disadvantage.

[feral viper]

Fair enough, double checked and you are right.

Still hate the divided armour classes (It has a U in it, you heathen colonials) but that is one criticism of it I will drop.

[timid drum]

Excuse me, I'm an American heathen colonial 😂

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/the-patriot-mel-gibson-jason-isaacs-colonel-tavington-tavington-gif-25510117

[feral viper]

You shall henceforth speak the Queen's English. Our eternal Queen Lizzie, hallowed be her Corgis.

[timid drum]

Nevah, I is a true American 😂

[jade plover]

I often see in youtube comments that people request to have a whole tamriel in the next elder scrolls game. I always find it weird. If they make a whole continent in one game no one will ever explore it, so it would be just wasting of resources. You can check skyrim achievment statistics, only 30% players cleared 50 dungeons, which means majority of players have seen like less than quarter of the game. Its already big enough that most people dont see all content. So i dont understand why people want the next game to be even biger, it just doesnt make sence.
What do you all think about it?

[midnight stag]

Es6 do you think that they’ll support by adding DLC size creation club content or just DLC kind of like they are doing for starfield

[feral viper]

I have long been of the opinion that the whole of Tamriel would be terrible to the point of stupidity.