#elder-scrolls-general-chat

1 messages · Page 22 of 1

feral viper
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I mean, hell. Bethesda has enough problems with people accusing them of stealing mod ideas as it is. I still remember the nonsense when Hearthfires was released, with mods on the Nexus having to constantly take down accusations that Beth had stolen the work of the riverside build your own home mod... When in reality Beth had simply returned to the idea of building from Morrowind's Strongholds a decade earlier.

I recall similar accusations on the Bethesda forums themselves, but it very quickly was brought under control, whereas it ran rampant on the Nexus for several months.

So yeah. Not worth the headache of even opening that door.

pale walrus
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But BGS does demonstrate a pattern of behavior regarding feedback from the fan base. The three Skyrim DLC are all the result of fans clamoring for a return to Morrowind, better vamp and werebeast support, and building your own domicile. I was left with the impression that BGS studied fan input and looked for a common root to all the complaints, ideas and suggestions, basing their subsequent activities upon the discovery of the root cause. So: if we complain, cajole, suggest and propose, they are likely to listen and, perhaps, take action that attempts to satisfy a broad swath of input.

violet lily
feral viper
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Indeed. A general area where the community can talk about what they'd like, is different then a direct suggestion pipeline which serves as a verifiable paper trail for ideas.

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For instance, back in the day I was involved on a fan project to rewrite the Eldar Codex for Warhammer 40,000 for the 4th edition. The 3rd edition codex was very out of date, and we were engaging in our own attempt to bring it in line with the game as it stood at the time.

I know for a fact at least one GW employee was on the forum at the time, and had access to the Projects board. But they never posted or interacted with us on the project it's self.

Now, 4th edition Codex finally releases (at the end of the edition, but that's a whole other thing...) and turns out... A lot of what we were playing with was actually in the new codex.

Had that GW employee engaged with us at any time (instead of relegating themselves almost entirely to announcements for tournaments and events) then there may have been more suspicion as to where those ideas came from.

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Plausible deniability is the name of the game. If it's not clear where you got the ideas from, you can't demonstrate theft. And the more direct submission pipeline you have for ideas, the easier it is to demonstrate probable theft, even if there was none.

Not worth it. Best to just let people talk amongst themselves, and not clearly engage or acknowledge it.

dim reef
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Will elder scrolls castle be on console like fallout shelter is

feral viper
dim reef
pale walrus
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I suspect there are clues within the DLC that will inform us of some of the things we can expect from ES6 - not in terms of province or main story, but mechanics and, perhaps, the kinds of stories that BGS may want to create for ES6.

twilit mural
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When will elderscrolls 6 come out??

pale walrus
twilit mural
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oh

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i thought they already announced it 😭 so i was just asking

eager remnant
twilit mural
hard jewel
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Hii

feral viper
eager remnant
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@grand junco I'm bringing this over from the Skyrim chat. Here is the original post: "Two questions. What is your favorite Elder Scrolls game? What are some things that you prefer about other Elder Scrolls games?"

Morrowind is my favorite Elder Scrolls game. What do I prefer about the other games? Well, with the exception of Morrowind's main quest, I prefer Skyrim's writing. I also prefer Skyrim's magic system, smithing, dual-wielding, perks, classless character creation, the way our characters interact with the game world to accomplish tasks (i.e. forges, grindstones, workbenches, alchemy labs, ect), enemies who frequently warn us away before engaging in combat and several other features. From Daggerfall I prefer its more robust character creation (minus classes), the concept of languages, multi-option fast travel and large cities. There is nothing I prefer from Arena or Oblivion

feral viper
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Basically the same.

My favourite is Morrowind, hands down. Though it was a rocky start to that love story. Still, I think Morrowind is not only the best game Bethesda has ever made, but one of the best games I have ever played. Even now, 23 years later, it remains in my top 5 games.

That said, on a critical level, I think Skyrim is mechanically superior in basically every way. I don't care for the stories, the characters, the art style, or the worldbuilding nearly as much, but I think Skyrim still offers the best foundation for a revolutionary RPG that we have had since the genre began. If only Bethesda could polish the scrap heap, as it were.

Daggerfall, I appreciate for its scale, freedom, and arguably the best character builder in all of gaming.

Arena I appreciate for being the starting point, but not much else.

And Oblivion i see absolutely no value in, to the point where I struggle to understand how anyone can actually praise it, or be proud of being involved in its creation.

pale walrus
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Morrowind - best storytelling by far. But clunky.

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Skyrim - uneven. Sometimes beautiful, sometimes jarringly not. Very uneven storytelling. Though I thoroughly enjoyed it, I walked away with the impression of many 'missed opportunities.'

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Oblivion - extremely, profoundly forgettable.

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Don't know any of the other titles. Sometimes I wonder if Battlespire and Redguard might be considered indirectly as pseudo-DLCs for Daggerfall. I'm guessing that if we do indeed return to HF, BGS will be doing so in order to get Daggerfall 'right' on the second go-around. Not that they'll repeat the main story or simply focus on Iliac Bay, but want to enrich HF (and maybe the same piece of HR, but I doubt it) using all the last two decades and more of game & story building experience they've accumulated. We'll see. I am certain that whatever they produce will be interesting.

grand junco
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@eager remnant @feral viper @pale walrus Follow up question based on other responses I've gotten. Which lock picking game do you like better? Oblivion's or Skyrim's?

pale walrus
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Skyrim, hands down. I found Oblivion's to be tedious. Not to say that Skyrim's was ingenious, but I definitely liked it more than Oblivion's.

eager remnant
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I vote for Skyrim's lockpicking as well.

feral viper
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I mean, I think both were rubbish. But Skyrim's was less tedious.

livid ingot
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Morrowind's the best, since your skill actually matters

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And Daggerfall for that matter

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I don't think the lockpicking minigames are conducive to a good RPG

eager remnant
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I prefer Morrowind's lockpicking as well (if it had been an option I'd have chosen it). The lockpicking mini-games in Oblivion and Skyrim are too "video-game-ified," too artificial, for my taste. I prefer Morrowind's character-skill-based, real-time lockpicking. In Morrowind we had to keep an eye out at all times for witnesses. This made lockpicking very tense when in crowded areas. Oblivion and Skyrim, by contrast, stop time. This feels almost like a kind of "cheat" to me: choose the exact split-second when no one is watching and you can take literal real-time hours to pick a lock in absolute safety.

pale walrus
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Mini-games should be just that: games. They shouldn't be something you learn to do mechanically, because then they're just 'administrative overhead.' When you 'beat' the minigame, there should be a sense of achievement along with the material reward.

feral viper
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I'm with Stud on that one. Morrowind didn't HAVE a lock picking minigame. It was just a dice check.

feral viper
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In general, I don't think any of the approaches are particularly good. Morrowind leans too hard on dice rolls, removing direct engagement from it, while Oblivion leans far too hard on minigames that force the world to a standstill.

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As far as minigames go, I think Starfield's is the best. But I also think there's an interaction problem in how it forces your attention, entirely removing environmental awareness while doing it, and it lacks sufficient skill-integration to really reflect the character over the player.

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If I were to approach it... I'd make all locks pickable through the minigame from the start. Then, you can buy Perks to autopick certain difficulties.

feral viper
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For instance... The 'Locked' text is colour coded.

Green means you have the auto-pick for whatever quality lock it is, and a tap of the button will unlock it.

Yellow means you have to engage with the minigame, and lockpick the hard way. You Hold the button to bring up the Lickpickinf minigame, though you retain the ability to look side to side and it doesn't freeze time.

Red means the lock is too complicated to pick, and you need to find a key.

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Perk-gating auto-pick means you still have to at least engage in the activity, but you have a way to represent the characters growing experience by making the various levels of locks inconsequential to your skilled probing.

The most complicated (Legendary) locks, however, are always going to require some serious focus on your part, and can't be auto-picked.

pale walrus
feral viper
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Ultimately, a general philosophy I adhere to is Engagement/Character Balance. If there's too much automation, then you aren't engaging the player. If there's too little automation, you're removing the Characters contribution.

The goal is to find a balance where the Player is actively engaging with the activity, but doing so in such a way that the Character's abilities inform the players actions.

And that applies to Lickpicking just as much as any other part of the game.

nimble pond
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"Lickpicking?" 😳

feral viper
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Look. Touch screens are hard.

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The fact autocorrect didn't pick it up worries me though. And I don't want to google it to see what it is...

nimble pond
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So I found Tamriel on Google maps and it's either in North Carolina or Rhode Island 😁

feral viper
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Everyone knows Google Maps isn't real. It's part of the Illuminati coverup to conceal the flat earth

pale walrus
feral viper
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Entirely unrelated... People who can't tell the difference between 'Not enough options' and 'Bad Mechanics' grate on me more and more as I get older.

wide garnet
feral viper
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Makes me feel like an old man

wide garnet
feral viper
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Oh boy, the world is doomed then. If I'm this curmudgeonly now, imagine what I'll be like in 40 years.

pale walrus
wide garnet
molten lodge
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6 Years since announcement (I know im late)

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I also might want to stress to any devs that are lingering in here, that this is a joke. Please take all the time yall need

night violet
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Appeantly we are dejected due to TES VI being confirmed as not a direct sequel to Skyrim... Who actually believed it was going to be? Bethesda hasn't ever done a title as a direct sequel and honestly if they did remake Skyrim again, I would not be playing it. I want to see a new region of Tamerial personally

pale walrus
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And, since the subject has been raised, I think I might like to see a general political scenario in ES6 where the Cyrodiilian Empire has collapsed, with both Skyrim and HR having broken away to 'do their own thing.' However, I'd like to see the Dominion fail to take over Cyrodiil after finding that the Colovian and Nibenese confederations into which Cyrodiil has divided are simply too irascible and chaotic to fully conquer or control. On the eastern edge of the continent, I'd like to see a strong and fully recovered Morrowind having retaken territory from the Argonians, with both of them stalemated along the original border but no longer at war - simply glaring and growling at each other across their respective boundaries. In the south, I would prefer to see Elsweyr and Valenwood at peace with the Altmer but increasingly restive. Finally, I'd be interested in seeing HF once again embroiled into an increasingly rancorous division between crowns and forebears.

scenic spade
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Elder Scrolls 6 release date, when?

wide garnet
pale walrus
nimble pond
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High Queen knows..

pale walrus
nimble pond
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What better queen to takeover the Empire than Thalmor? They'd just love that wouldn't they 😨

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Or maybe a princess peach

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Tesvi: you are.. princess!

pale walrus
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Ya know, the Altmer would have such a golden opportunity to bring some real peace and quiet to Tamriel if they took over the Imperial City....and NOTHING ELSE in Cyrodiil.

nimble pond
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There'd be much peace after the slaughtering for sure 😛

pale walrus
# nimble pond There'd be much peace after the slaughtering for sure 😛

🤣 Yeah, there probably would be quite an episode of carnage. But it would be great if there weren't. If the Thalmor could, upon surrounding the city with overwhelming forces, ask the besieged army to simply leave with sworn-to-all-the-Aedra guarantees that they and the citizens would be unharmed and the defenders could leave with all their equipment and supplies, that would be extraordinary. If then the Thalmor could release Skyrim and HR as independent states and leave the rest of Cyrodiil alone, they would be ensuring only one thing - that there would be no return of a Cyrodiil-based Empire of Man. That, I think, would be the smartest thing they could do and would realize the greatest long term benefit. But the chances of that happening are absolute zero.

nimble pond
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Yea, plus it's a video game. A peaceful resolution between the two biggest rivals would be snore-snore. Give me chaos and bloodshed and fun Shout

But there may be opening for larger alliances, possibly temporary, on a continental basis if Tamriel were ever to be under threat from another continent's large-scale assault, such as Akavir.

feral viper
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The only reasonable outcome is Ulfric's head on a spike outside the Palace of Kings, the new Emperor burning Alinor to the ground, and the Thalmor leaders tied to anchors and dropped into the Abecean.

wide garnet
feral viper
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Torture is too good for them. It requires effort, and the Thalmor are only worth discarding like a bubblegum wrapper.

deep cove
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It would be so cool to get some creation club content to be able to forge and write in books/restore ruined books as a mod. It might not be used so much, but to be able to write your own lore and add in to the experience of the game would be dope.

feral viper
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Having specific 'destroyed' copies of books, and being able to combine say... 10 destroyed copies to create a restored one could be a fun option.

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Basically piecing together a full manuscript out of surviving scraps of damaged ones.

eager remnant
fossil basin
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What elder scrolls should I play first? I finished the prologue of Skyrim where you run from the dragon and I don’t know if I should play Skyrim or something else

feral viper
feral viper
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So it's mostly a matter of preference, and your tolerance for older gameplay dynamics.

fossil basin
feral viper
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Nope. The events if previous games are mentioned in books and the like, but don't have any real direct impact on the sequel. So you don't have to start at the beginning to understand what's going on.

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Simply pick a game and go. Since you've started with Skyrim, I say finish Skyrim as much as you like, and then maybe play another.

eager remnant
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I agree. Since you have begun Skyrim already I would continue playing it.

nimble pond
# fossil basin So it doesn’t matter what game I play first to get me into the series?

You might miss out on some of the lore or experiencing some of it firsthand in-game rather than just reading about it or hearing it talked about among NPCs or like when reading the in-game books some of it you'll be like who the heck are these people from the past, wolf queen, she a wolf? queen of wolves literally? or just a queen? But other than that you should be alright. But you could also just read lore online as opposed to playing previous tes games. Some ppl may not want to go back further than Morrowind and it's a pretty different experience in game controls/mechanics pre-morrowind tes.

fossil basin
nimble pond
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They also have mobile games for TES if you are into those sort of things. Like TES: Blades, TES: Legends, and the newly released TES: Castles.

fossil basin
eager remnant
pale walrus
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The thing about the ES games is that they take place in a game universe that has LOTS of detail and depth in terms of history and culture. There's so much, in fact, that none of the games fully embrace that (though Morrowind probably comes to closest.) There's simply too much back story. But that shouldn't stop you from engaging in the series, nor should you feel compelled to start at the beginning with ES: Arena. Since you've started Skyrim (which is a really fun game), just take your time playing it and explore the game world. You'll run into things that will make you wonder what the back story is on it, and you can read up on it either in the game (there are books that you find from time to time) or by going online (uesp.net is a favorite source, though there are two others I can think of that are potentially useful.) As an example: in Skyrim, you will eventually run into buildings that look like they're made out of brass, and when you go into them, they lead to underground cities with lots of yellow metallic structures and mechanical beings. These places will have a 'steampunk' feel to them. What exactly are these places? Well, you can look their names up online. From those sources, you will find out that these structures and underground cities used to belong to a tribe called the Dwemer. Who are the Dwemer? You can look them up and read more.

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If you like exploring and getting immersed in a game world, you are going to have a FANTASTIC time playing ES games. Above all, entertain your urge to explore. Even going over some random hill or scrambling up a mountain which looks forbidding or barren will present surprises to you - ES games reward players who explore. One cautionary note: save frequently. 😉

scenic spade
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I have a serious question.......

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If Skyrim is one of the most popular games of all time, why do people rarely consider it their favorite RPG? We are a special case, of course. We are a part of the community.

But basically, on almost any online community I'm in, people will almost always mention some Skyrim rival (like Dragon Age or Witcher) or some very-good-but-underrated game as ten times better than Skyrim or as the best RPG of all time. Only to mention how "mid" Skyrim is.

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I mean what the hell.

Some guy would make a top 100 list of best RPGs and Skyrim rarely reaches its top 40, even though it sold more copies than the top ten in that list.

eager remnant
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I don't know the answer. And, to be honest, I don't care. Let them think what they want to think. Skyrim is essentially tied with Morrowind as my all-time favorite video games by any developer. That is the only thing that matters to me.

livid ingot
livid ingot
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It's not going to be the top of many people's lists. You have to exceed over a decade of newer games, and beat out other classics

scenic spade
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@livid ingot

Great point. I did miss those facts.

livid ingot
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You would get a lot more people saying Skyrim was their favorite game a decade ago

scenic spade
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I started a new Skyrim campaign. I have several, two are in PS3 Legendary Edition. Two are in our current version of Skyrim. Both in survival mode.

And despite that, I still feel as if the game is fresh. And I'm speaking as a guy who just resumed his Mass Effect Andromeda campaign after Dragon Age Origins left a bad taste in my mouth.

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I have tried other games man.

I can't help but go back to Skyrim. All. The. Time.

livid ingot
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There is something about Bethesda titles that keep all of us coming back

scenic spade
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Funnily enough, the only, and I mean only game that gave me as much joy and immersion as Skyrim is... The Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion. Another Elder Scrolls game.

nimble pond
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TES: Castles is interesting enough lately. Being that it's giving off strong vibes of hinting at TESVI could possibly be both High Rock and Hammerfell. Might find some small, non-critical, pre-TESVI lore in it too regarding the two provinces and even the Orcs/Orsinium, and how the first theme looks very Breton/HR and the 2nd looks Redguard/HF. Even if they add more themes later, it's interesting they started with those two first. I would of expected Nord or Imperial.

scenic spade
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Is it a strategy PvP game? Only on mobile? I might play it.

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I just don't want to play games that will end up as laughing stocks of the video game world.

eager remnant
nimble pond
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Yea, Wyrd's words are much wiser on the matter.

scenic spade
# nimble pond Yea, Wyrd's words are much wiser on the matter.

My friends, I tried sooo hard to appreciate other games. Lots of them. I ended up appreciating them. But only half of how much I appreciated Elder Scrolls games.

It is just that peer pressure is forcing me to talk about how some guys are way better than Skyrim. Deep down, I don't believe it. But people are jerks man.

nimble pond
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You must be young. You'll outgrow peer pressure and realize it doesn't matter.

pale walrus
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I'm actually quite finicky regarding RPGs. The only series I've actually liked is ES. Skyrim is, I guess, tied with ES3 as my favorite.

nimble pond
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Castles is, I believe, only on Mobile. But you can totally play it on PC using an emulator. Or even just using a cable to put phone display on your PC monitor and use your PC key & mice.

pale walrus
nimble pond
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It wouldn't be, not really. TES2 was neither High Rock nor Hammerfell. It was the Bay.. (and just included small portions of those two provinces and in a completely different era of time, not just lore-wise, but the game technology itself as well back then).
Nor would I really worry about it. Their dev team has increased so much since Skyrim's time of development.

But I will say this. Covering a game to "completion" doesn't automatically mean to require or limit the game to be one province only. Don't forget the first TES was all of Tamriel and the two games after that didn't even cover an entire province fully. As seen already, product is subject to change.

nimble pond
# scenic spade Is it a strategy PvP game? Only on mobile? I might play it.

I've seen a lot of labels applied to it like simulation, builder, strategy, etc. But genres can be misleading and not fully-defining. In my own words, I would say it's game is literally in the name itself. Build and manage your own TES castle/kingdom. Similar to Fallout Shelter (build and manage your own vault) when it released prior to Fallout 4.

scenic spade
nimble pond
# scenic spade Will you play it yourself? Honestly, if the game actually costs something, I'd ...

Yes. I actually still play Fallout Shelters from time-to-time too. I like the seasonal events.

And I wouldn't worry about that. It's typically seen in multiplayer games (which Castles is not) because you are buying a "competitive" edge against other players, which can ruin the experience, and they typically deliberately design it to make some points in those multiplayer games to be frustrating or near impossible, forcing you to purchase if you want to be able to advance in the game.

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If you want to know if you're going to like a game or not, just watch a game walkthrough (no commentary) on YouTube or whatever of the first level and then maybe a few minutes somewhere in the middle and you'll probably know if it's something you'll like or not by then.

pale walrus
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Well, if ES Castles is indeed giving us some hints about ES6, I think we'll get even more hints one week from monday - that's when the first SF DLC releases.

somber sage
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I think it's all but confirmed ESVI is Hammerfell if not Hammerfell coupled with High Rock

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judging by the hints BGS has been putting out

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also the art station and pinterest boards of their concept artists

pale walrus
# somber sage I think it's all but confirmed ESVI is Hammerfell if not Hammerfell coupled with...

If we get HF, I want to get the FULL province. Why, you ask? I want to be able to walk up the western shore of the Brena river - or even take a canoe thru the middle of the channel - all the way up to the intersection of cyrodiil, HF and Skyrim (assuming the river goes that far) and I want to be able to look over into Western Cyrodiil as I walk or paddle along. Same thing as I walk thru Craglorn, up to Dragonstar, down the Bjoulsae river and along the Iliac Bay south coast. The reason I spell that out is that one of the great frustrations for me in ES4 (Oblivion) was the fact that there were invisible walls that prevented me from walking the entire Cyrodiil perimeter. It grated. (I realize that sounds eccentric, and I plead the fifth.)

somber sage
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my own theory is BGS is planning to do the whole two provinces plus Abecean isles with a focus on naval travel and they'll probably use a revamped version of Starfield's ship and Rev-8 for sailboats/galleons etc. I also think it's likely they'll integrate some updated version of their procedural tech for SF into ESVI for a much larger more lore accurate version of the two provinces. My fear with Hammerfell at Skyrim's scale is making the various deserts feel big enough. I think with some variation of their procgen they can drastically increase the scale.

I think it also helps that the provinces have so many distinct biomes.

nimble pond
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It's interesting. What with SF's various planets and the possibility of a two full-province TES. I was thinking about where that might lead Fallout in the future and how you could get multiple cities spread around the country using a railway system and/or airports. Could offer some interesting contrast. One minute you're in some humid mutant swamplands, the next you're in a snowy, frozen hell wasteland. Multiple completely different, un-related cultures spread around the country.

feral viper
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I think Starfield is a pretty good case for NOT doing two provinces.

glass marlin
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Oh definitely.

feral viper
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We still have a week to see whether or not Shattered Space is better, but the bland utter lack of engaging culture or worldspace design of Starfield's settled regions is a pretty strong indicator that Bethesda can't deliver quality on that sort of scale.

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If the goal is even anything close to Morrowind level quality, then a single province is practically mandatory.

nimble pond
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Ppl say that, but I liked Starfield. Not to mention, there's a world of difference between two locations and thousands of them. Not to mention other variables like the setting and time of SF itself.
Back then, it was the same rhetoric. "One province is too big, it'll never be detailed enough." 🙄

feral viper
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I enjoyed Starfield too. But it's worldspace design has serious problems, and it's settlements are... Well, that's better suited to the Starfield channel.

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Sufficed to say, I think Starfield only further cemented my stance that they cannot handle 2 provinces at once.

nimble pond
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Both Bethesda games, but also two very different games in design. One being this vast fantasy medieval world and the other being a more realistic early space travel game where the world is thousands of planets.

feral viper
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The size isn't the problem. The utter lack of meaningful worldbuilding is.

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If we apply the same standard to TES, we'd be back to Oblivion quality. And I do not support that direction.

nimble pond
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If their last game was a TES game, you'd have a point, but you're comparing apples and oranges with SF and TES design requirements. TES is a fantasy world with limitless imagination. Starfield is limited to it's more grounded and realistic roots of our own world. One setting is on a single country. The other is a massive pocket of space with thousands of planets. You're going to have different capabilities between the two. If Starfield had been more fantasy instead like TES's setting, you probably would have seen a difference.

feral viper
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It's been a trend. The various communities in Fallout 4, and 76, and even Skyrim were quite one dimensional.

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Not quite Oblivion bad, but still pretty bad.

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Fallout sorta gets away with it, because that's been a trend for its entire history though.

nimble pond
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But this isn't useful. He says, she says.. i'm not interested in the hate train that will probably always be there. The point is yes, two provinces are more than capable and having good worldspace building.

feral viper
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Possible, yes. But I don't think Bethesda has demonstrated the ability to do so in a long time, and I don't believe in setting expectations outside of what has been reasonably demonstrated

That's how you disappoint yourself.

nimble pond
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Never said it was an "expectation." Just a suggestion.

feral viper
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I also have OTHER problems with 2 provinces, but that's a whole other topic...

nimble pond
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Nor has there been any demonstration they can't do a well-built two province TES game.

feral viper
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I'd say there's been 2 examples of them struggling to do a single province well, as well as a further 3 examples of one dimensional trope-driven worldbuilding in other settings.

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Which is not a resounding endorsement.

In fact, their entire portfolio over the last 20 years seems to suggest Morrowind was a fluke, rather than a representation of actual ability.

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But I optimistically choose to believe it wasn't, and that they CAN achieve that quality again. They just haven't, for whatever reasons.

nimble pond
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Are you talking recently or going back to the past? Skyrim was forever ago. Unless you're talking about non-TES games again.

feral viper
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I'm talking every game since Oblivion.

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Bethesda has NEVER replicated the worldbuilding and execution of that worldbuilding, that they achieved in Morrowind. Some titles were better than others, but they have entirely failed to achieve that peak again, or even really got close.

nimble pond
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It would be helpful if you kept the focus on TES games. You start talking about other games by them and it's there's lot of other variables with those games regarding game design.

feral viper
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I don't think in this context you can remove the other examples. Because of how fundamentally similar all Bethesda games are.

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We're not talking like Blizzard, or Capcom here. Bethesda does not have a diverse portfolio of game styles that make it impossible to draw comparisons between different franchises they develop.

Bethesda has a very clear, distinct type of game that they make. To the point where they literally build their own engine specifically for that style of game (rather than using a 3rd party engine that's designed to do all kinds of different things)

nimble pond
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Well then, this is turning into a matter of personal taste. There was nothing wrong with the worldbuilding of Oblivion or Skyrim. Perhaps some simply found the province of Morrowind to be a more interesting location because well, it's rather exotic in comparison to our own world which creates this feeling of something "new."

nimble pond
feral viper
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The context is 'Has Beyhesda demonstrated sufficient competency to reasonably conclude they could handle 2 provinces, their cultures, and their diversity?'. And I would say that literally every game they have released since 2006 very clearly indicates 'No'.

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I can confidently stay that, based on what we have seen from Bethesda, doing so would amount to Generic-Arab Hammerfell, and Generic-French Highrock.

nimble pond
#

It's the reasons you're giving. If there was a legitimate reason why they couldn't make a well-built two provinces TES game here and now, then I'd take that into consideration. But I haven't been offered anything other than personal distastes on some of their implementation (because I constantly see some people saying they "liked" it and some people saying they "disliked" it on the same topics) or comparisons of things that aren't even in the same light of each other.

feral viper
#

Ultimately I suppose it's of little importance, because I've already given up on the setting anyway. So who cares if they do two provinces, might as well so the entire continent for all the confidence I have in their worldbuilding.

I'm more invested in the mechanics, which I still think have ample value. Basically just been falling back into old habits.

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There is a difference between giving up on something, and still loving it.

nimble pond
#

It is hard to have a fair outlook on something when you already have a disappointed outlook on something.

Well, they did already do all of Tamriel in arena. But as growth continues in our world, it would probably happen in the future eventually and continuing on with the scale of in-depth detail many have come to enjoy.

feral viper
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I have a standard set by what they have done in the past. And I use it to measure what comes after.

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Now, not even Morrowind meets what I WANT out of worldbuilding. There's far, far more I wish Morrowind had.

nimble pond
#

I can see that with things like game mechanics. But there are a lot of variables coming in with worldbuilding. It's not so easy as saying SF, Fallout did this, so TES will do ... It's not like they are going to suddenly turn TES map into thousands of barren planets reflective of our own real-life space. Officially stated the setting will still be in Tamriel.

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Think I saw somewhere they still have three-fifths of the same people who worked on Skyrim? Not sure if that's accurate, didn't have time to dig into it.

#

Anyway, I gotta run, work to do. Have fun guys

feral viper
#

And yet, based on Starfield, they haven't really changed anything at Bethesda in terms of that sort of lore writing.

Storytelling? Yes, that's gotten better. But lore? Still pretty darn shallow, trope driven and poorly thought out.

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Which is part of why I doubt Bethesda's ability to execute on 2 provinces.

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At the same time, I think doing so is a fundamentally poor idea to begin with.

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It's unnecessarily setting yourself up to do more work, dividing your efforts between two very distinct cultures, environments and regions. That automatically means you have to do MORE work to reach the same level of development for each that you'd achieve by focusing on one.

And since we know they won't do the extra work, the consequence is half assing 2 provinces instead.

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And I for one would rather have even a single half assed province, then having two half assed at the same time.

I'd LIKE one well executed province, but if I had to pick, I'd rather one ruined at a time instead of all in one fell swoop.

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It's hard to judge what he has contributed to and what he hasn't. I've heard that his level design is pretty great.

But... I mean, in general, I think some new writers are needed.

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And even then... I don't like MOST of what they've done.

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Oh, absolutely. That's 100% my personal preference.

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Nah, no setting 100% vibes with me.

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I can appreciate bits and pieces, and so long as I like more than I dislike, I can comfortably engage with it.

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Warhammer, for instance.

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I just found, after some real examination, that most of what I really enjoyed about the Elder Scrolls as a setting, was from Morrowind, and the vast majority of the setting was a disappointment, or just plain not interesting.

So I couldn't justify continuing to engage with a lore community when I disliked the vast majority of the lore.

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Now, that said, I do still think that the games have a great deal of mechanical potential. And Skyrim in particular was closer to the 'perfect' RPG for me than any other game I have played, in a mechanical sense.

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But, it's clear no one writing for TES wants the same things I want, lore wise. And Bethesda in particular hasn't given me the confidence to say they could even pull off what I want, even if they wanted the same thing.

livid ingot
#

76 was not Bethesda Austin. Bethesda Austin worked mostly on the online element of the game. They were brought on because BGS didn't have much experience in online game development.
This is all there on Wikipedia, it's not hard to find

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Most of the game's actual content is the work of BGS

feral viper
#

Specifically, Lore wise post-launch.

livid ingot
#

What evidence do we have that they worked on the the lore, then? I know launch was barebones, most stuff came after. But do we have interviews?

somber sage
#

I'm really hoping for a varied and interesting Hammerfell and High Rock with all the various regions described in lore. Maybe Tamriel Rebuilt set my standards so high.

feral viper
somber sage
#

but I think if Bethesda knows what's best for them they'll try to make the game's world distinct

feral viper
somber sage
#

imagine going from coastal Mediterranean climate to mountains then savannah, swamp, jungle, and desert, to meadows, deep forest and snowy mountains

feral viper
#

As I said, I have wider problems with 2 provinces beyond just my lack of confidence in Bethesda.

somber sage
#

my fear with doing them separately is High Rock on it's own might could come off as just Daggerfall + Oblivion 2.0 Plus it's a very long and narrow province. Doing them both allows for more cultural diversity, biomes, and squarer map. I also think Bethesda wants to go big after 13 years since Skyrim and after Starfield and FO76

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I'm looking at this also from a financial perspective of what makes the most sense in terms of business strategy

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It's also why I think they renamed Summerset Isles to Alinor as it's a more marketable name in the event of a sequel set there

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whether it'll be succesful is up in the air

tame light
#

It’s not an engine thing or a lack of depth thing, it’s a physical limitation because of fast travel causing the world to seem smaller and less connected than if you walked everywhere

feral viper
#

Morrowind was good, yes, but if you want to REALLY make a fleshed out and engaging culture, Morrowind is just the start. There's so much more you could do.

tame light
#

Oh true, I assumed you meant physical size not interconnected ideas and things

feral viper
#

Oh no. I respect the Technical limitations at play, and what you can reasonably represent. Especially in 2001.

tame light
#

Make it as realistic and fleshed out as possible

scenic spade
#

Is Elder Scrolls Castles canon?

pale walrus
#

An admittedly eccentric idea:

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In ES6, I want food recipes to be something you can actually do at home, on your own. This will take significant effort by BGS, but I want the recipes to be realizable and top notch - I mean Michelin chef level stuff, as good as the best cookbook. For instance: if we go to HF, I expect to see recipes like Bobotie (which I can already make, and well, but new ideas are always welcome), curry dishes, recipes for boar and venison, chicken dishes, lamb dishes other than bobotie, beef recipes and multiple recipes for veggies. If HR is the actual destination of ES6, then we'd be getting into French recipes, and it would be AWESOME to get a collection of those - including some soup dishes.

tame light
#

But yes your idea is great

eager remnant
tame light
#

There’s a second one now too

feral viper
scenic spade
#

I guess it's one thing to abandon.

I might do something like the Fighters Guild in my old ass Oblivion campaign. My character there still has a lot to do. I just want him to beat the Arena champions first.

feral viper
#

I don't think you need to abandon it. It just doesn't have a narrative, so has no real canon to add

pale walrus
#

Thank you, bro. 😄

pale walrus
#

If anyone wants my Bobotie recipe, PM me (got it from family friends originally from Serbia who lived in South Africa for a while)

nimble pond
#

For cooking, I'd be really interested in outdoors cooking. Like stuff you wouldn't normally eat, but for when your out in the wilderness for survival. It's crazy you can eat certain tree shavings when you're bare bones starving and have nothing else. But not just nasty stuff like that, there is some good tasting stuff out there too if you have the know-how or "skill" to know where to find them, what's safe and what isn't (some things out in the wild could make you sick or even kill you if you eat something really toxic) and how to properly cook it. Foraging off the land and waters

feral viper
#

I think you could have a pretty interesting cooking and food dynamic, if you piggyback off a more robust Alchemy system.

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Effectively making Cooking Alchemy-Lite.

pale walrus
tame light
#

No money, no clothes, no skills, level 1

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Got to level up and make money and hunt my own food

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Oh and on expert difficulty

scenic spade
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One of my favorite activities in Oblivion is leveling up my character's athletics skill by having him swim laps in the Waterfront district right outside of the Imperial City. It's like he's training his cardio so he can fight better in the arena. lol

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He lives in that house too. Nobody knows he's currently the Thieves Guild boss. lol

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A Cosmopolitan Bosmer who fights in the Arena as his day job but his real get-rich scheme is being a professional thief, and then the beggars are his henchmen and everybody is being watched. And he can strike at any moment and steal their valuable stuff...

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Heck, forget about gaining super weapons from those Oblivion gate orbs. lmao. Being a ninja is all ya need. Lmao

feral viper
#

You know, I don't think I've ever once used a Sigil Stone to enchant something.

feral viper
#

Right, well, I just learned Ancient Apocalypse is getting a second season (because Netflix is a nepotism driven hellscape) and I need to ramble about something productive to lower my blood pressure.

So ... ENCHANTING!

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Like many things in TES, Enchanting kinda... Functional, but not great. Even discounting the grotesque ethical concerns of the entire industry, it's mechanically pretty one dimensional.

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You get a soul, use it to apply an effect on an item, and done. Not much room for variety of different approaches and ways to engage with it.

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First change I would make... Allow the player to use their Magicka to charge enchanted weapons.

Second, bring back actual Soul Strength values. Treating them as explicit blocks of usefulness rather than a spectrum is boring.

Third, some mechanism to enchant WITHOHT using souls. Be it through Runes, using your own Magicka but creating a stacking debuff, interplay with Alchemy, whatever. But some sort of way to work around the Soul part. Souls may be easier, or more powerful, but the inherent problems with them should be acknowledged.

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And as an added touch... If the gem doesn't tell us specifically what's in it, at least let us LABEL it. One of the greatest joys of Morrowind was having a shelf of Grand Soul Gems with every Dagoth in them. Just sitting there. So I could mock the failure of their fatih.

pale walrus
# feral viper First change I would make... Allow the player to use their Magicka to charge enc...

Agreed on all of it. I find the use of souls and soul gems to be distasteful. There's an ugly callousness to it. Also, some enchantments should be......wrong. Think of the Nightblade in the 2022 film "The Northman." A weapon such as that should never have been created. In ES, there should be such a thing as enchantments or enchanted items which are 'wrong', having malign effects on the user and/or the surrounding environment.

feral viper
#

Indeed. Economically, I think the core practice of Enchanting as it stands is ethically reprehensible, to the point of being outright evil (in so far as Evil exists) and its frankly disgusting that so many people even in the fandom don't see a problem with it.

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But that problem, is an opportunity for more mechanical variation.

hard vector
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You know, I think it would be neat if Bethesda made some quests that involve some of the lore mysteries. Like, a quest that explains what actually happened to the Dwemer. I feel like those kinds of quests would be fun to do, but make them more than just side quests xP

fluid crescent
#

Need update TES:Blade

Need update TES:Blade

Need update TES:Blade

pale walrus
pale walrus
# hard vector You know, I think it would be neat if Bethesda made some quests that involve som...

BGS seems intent on deliberately keeping the fate of the Dwemer a mystery, but they could still serve as the basis for involved quests. Example: you are cursed by Malacath or Boethiah (or maybe even Sheogorath) to travel back to the Merethic era and find yourself in a Dwemer city. You immediately encounter two problems: (1) All the dwemer seem interested in using your body for parts to assemble some sort of experimental cyborg, with some dwemer simply offering you things in trade for various body parts, others passively trying to claim said body parts, and yet others being very, very active about it. (2) You find that the dwemer all have voices and demeanors more irritating than Yagrum Bagarn.

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Your quest is to escape this Dwemer city and get back to your proper place in Time.

feral viper
pale walrus
lavish nimbus
#

Well there recently was an article where Bethesda essentially said "Some fan's won't be happy with TES6" and "you can't please everyone".
Well if they want to make most fans happy they should:

-Give us actual RPG mechanics in an RPG game
-Stop dumbing it down to fit a more and more generic fantasy role
-Gives us a GOOD story and lore that is consistent instead of changing it on a whim
-Don't do "plot twists" that you just think are cool but don't make any sense
-DON'T nickel and dime everything with microtransactions
-Have a hand crafted world that's actually FUN to explore
-Take it seriously and don't go "it had SOME silly aspects so there's no reason to take it seriously"
-Give us characters we actually care for and not "you SHOULD care about them because we say so"
-Hire a better writing team and actually keep design documents

These are the points I can just think of quickly, there is a LOT more wrong with how Bethesda developed. But they plug their ears with their previous "successes" and don't listen to the criticism, to them it's "we sold so many copies, we CAN'T be wrong".

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You'd hope that Starfield was a wakeup call to them but the hopes for that are pretty slim. As long as Emil Pagliarulo is the head writer the story won't be good. He bases all his writing on what he THINKS is cool without even thinking about if it actually makes sense.

pale walrus
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I wonder why BGS doesn't hire actual successful book writers to craft their stories - both the main plot and side stories. They could pay them thru a percentage of the sales - 1% for the main story, less for side stories. BGS would have to spend time and effort educating the writers about the lore and their overall intentions for the title. But the results could be absolutely breathtaking if they do it right.

lavish nimbus
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@pale walrus ego, pride, they are still mad that New Vegas is praised so much more than their fallout titles.

eager remnant
#

What is your definition of "actual RPG mechanics?"

lavish nimbus
# eager remnant What is your definition of "actual RPG mechanics?"

Having skills you can be good and bad in and you can level up, they have been stripping that down more and more in favour of "perk systems".
Having choices that actually matter in how to engage a situation that aren't just "a wide selection of killing tools"
Have your choices actually reflect in consequences to the game world

EDIT:
In addition I'd also say having to actually work your way up in factions, having your "promotions" mean something
And on factions, this being a more general "what should be", being able to actually STEER their course when you are high enough in influence.

pale walrus
#

I have to broadly agree with the above. There are some things I might add. For instance: the Skyrim smithing skill growth was, in my very humble opinion, a good start. You actually have to work on things to learn how to produce them and then improve upon your output. I'd take this a little farther - as an example, say you get some lessons from Smith the Smith on how to make some iron weapons and armor. You come across something like...dwemer metal and would like to learn how to work it. But Smith the Smith doesn't have that body of knowledge, so he points you to Joey the Smith in Medium Size City #1A, about 1/3 of the way across the map. When you meet Joey, he might want you to do a few things for him before he agrees to teach you (and there's opportunities for developing quests beyond "go to the place and get the thing" with Joey's requirement.) But then he teaches you and you improve in smithing. This could proceed all the way up to Daedric armor and weapons. Same goes for Alchemy, but with a twist - the Skyrim Alchemy system was nonsensical. As an illustrative example, if you wanted to make a flying potion (which wasn't available in Skyrim, but bear with me), you might have to gather three ingredients - a giant's big toe, a piece of troll skin, and a drop of vampire blood. Notice how those three ingredients don't seem like obvious choices and their combination would not lead you to believe that the resulting potion could make you fly. I would change that to something that is more logical. If your three ingredients were something more like a feather from a hawk's tail, dragon blood and a flask of silk strider flatulence, there is at least some sort of logic behind the recipe.

lavish nimbus
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My brother came up with an idea how the "learning by doing" system can be improved too.

Instead of only getting skill points on a success you get them on both a success and a failure. The thing is the balance on how much you get for each starts to change as you get better.
In the beginning you learn more from successes and only a little from failures, for beginners it's better to know what to do right.
But later as you get more skilled you learn more from the MISTAKES you make rather than the successes. You learn what you can improve from what you're NOT doing right.

With the smithing example from above, yea you learn smithing from making 1000 iron daggers... but after a while that's all you make, you have no challenge so you don't learn anything new.
So you take on a new challenge, a new material or form of the item, you suck at it at first but you learn from "hmm that didn't work" just as much as from "OK I got this".
And in the end you have the skills to take on a great weapon made of a demonic material, your first wont be perfect but you learn what to do better from it in the future.

scenic spade
#

Any news on Bethesda changing her mind and making ES6 available on the PS5?

scenic spade
#

But also, if you folks scroll up, you'll see what I said. Please check it out and let's talk about it. I love conversing with fellow Elder Scrolls fans.

pale walrus
scenic spade
scenic spade
feral viper
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Stuck'em in a barrel and forgot about them. Like 99% of all loot.

feral viper
#

That said, I think the deeper problem with Bethesda games is that... Well... They have NEVER made the games people seem to think they do.

Every single Bethesda game has been a buggy, unbalanced, poorly realised RPG that deviates from industry standards, with mediocre to poor writing, flat characters, repetitive gameplay and shallow world spaces, sprinkled with enough Lore to give the illusion of depth.

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What Bethesda does masterfully however, is explore ideas and new mechanical options that others don't even touch.

They never execute on the idea well, but they at least HAVE the idea in the first place.

And despite all their problems, they show a glimmer of brilliance that is simply absent in most other RPGs.

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Bethesda may not be good at sticking the landing, but they have the expression of potential that you can't find anywhere else.

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If Bethesda could actualize their ideas in a refined and polished way, we wouldn't even be having a discussion on whether or not they're good, whether or not they've dumbed down their games, or whether or not they even qualify as RPGs. Because it would be blatantly obvious that they make the best RPGs going.

But they struggle on the actualization, and since most people only see the polish, they don't recognise the potential underneath.

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A prime example of this is Fallout 4s Dialogue system.

It was used poorly, yes. It lacked decent choices, yes. It was almost universally panned, yes.

And yet, it was quite possibly the best dialogue system, ever, in RPGs.

Had it been used better, had it's potential been utilised to even a fraction of its value, it would have allowed you to move seamlessly between Dialogue and Combat and Exploration and Interaction, without any sub-screens or control locked interfaces that take away your moment by moment control.

And it would have allowed for enough options to include more Dialogue Choices than any RPG in history has ever needed.

wide garnet
#

… somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed.

feral viper
#

Nah. If I was on the wrong side of the bed, there'd be enough swearing for the servers bots to have banned me already.

wide garnet
#

You’re in a splendid mood this morning. Splendid enough to fill the skies with thunder.

feral viper
#

Blunt criticism without pandering is important, I think. But you need to also explain the strengths, rather than just the weaknesses.

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Bethesda has never been good at execution. But they are brilliant at ideas, and exploring new solutions to old problems.

feral viper
#

And, at least to me... New ideas and new solutions to old problems is far more valuable than simply repeating the same ideas and solutions over and over again.

Because you don't get Progress through Tradition.

feral viper
#

As a more positive reflection of the criticism, here is a list of things I think we're brilliant, if poorly executed.

Morrowind's reinvention of Learn by Doing. While they didn't invent it (Sierra used the idea in the mid 90s to mid 90s) they way they approached it from Morrowind onward has been nothing short of foundational.

Skyrim's Perks. I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, and I'll keep saying it. Skyrim's Perk System was superior to Attributed, Oblivion's Perks, and Fallout 3s Perks COMBINED. Being able to represent specialisation, specificity, technique, and general application all within a single system was, and remains, nothing short of revolutionary.

Fallout 4s Dialogue System. Hated it when it was showcased, and I was a very vocal opponent of it initially. But once I realised what you could DO with it, I saw the genius behind it. Though I sometimes think not even Bethesda knows what they had, considering the dumpster fire that is Starfield's Dialogue System...

Starfield's Persuasion System. Just... An absolutely master stroke. Keeping Persuasion conversational while also skill based, allowing for inclusion of discovered options rewarding out-of-dialogue investigation and exploration, it's just... Magnificent.

Now, all of these things are pretty poorly utilised even in the games where they appear. But if used carefully, and with more refinement, they could very easily create an RPG the likes of which we haven't seen since the original Baldur's Gate.

zenith galleon
#

Hello everyone

feral viper
pale walrus
wide garnet
scenic spade
#

Man, I'm kinda stuck in a bad spot in my Skyrim campaign. I'm itching to buy the Markarth house while hanging out at Markarth. Certain treasures I obtained are in a a container in the inn and I carry my character's book collection everywhere he goes. And he's only level 12. I can't buy the Markarth house until he's level 20.

#

I play Survival Mode of course.

feral viper
#

Hard to propose a solution without knowing your skills, and whether or not you're up for gaming the leveling system.

#

But you could reasonably power level 8 levels to unlock it if you game the system.

pale walrus
scenic spade
#

@pale walrus

@feral viper

I'm not gonna do any exploits.

What's the respawn frequency in inns? I was planning on having my character make a short trip to Solitude and fighting random encounters to boost his two handed and heavy armor skill a little more. And then making another trip back home to Markarth.

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His main skills are (in no particular order) two handed, heavy armor, speech, and conjuration. I haven't leveled up his conjugation ability yet.

#

Conjuration (typo)

#

I am roleplaying a philosopher.

feral viper
#

Ok, well... Probably the simplest storage option, then, would be join the College. You are given a storage chest, so you can store there without any risk of resets.

nimble pond
#

Should on-the-fly makeshift buildable traps be a thing? Like with whatever u find in the wilds, some environment unique (tree branch whip traps, etc.) and junk materials. I was remembering some of the crap used to build on black ops and was thinking of having something like that on TES besides just pre-built traps u hit a lever or stand in switch or magic runes.

feral viper
#

Conceptually, yes.

In terms of practicality however... I'm not sure how you'd do them.

nimble pond
#

Well we have a crafting system. Perhaps fit into some skill for more trap type recipe unlocks.

pale walrus
#

Interesting idea. There are the types of traps that you can build in a forest setting - spring traps, rope and noose traps, spiked traps, tiger traps. Think "First Blood" when the police are pursuing Sgt Rambo in the woods. Then there are traps that you might set up as a thief or assassin - a very thin but strong wire at neck or ankle level in a hallway or stairway, traps that spring when you open a door, etc....I'm guessing the implementation could get complicated, though.

feral viper
#

I think if you're making deployable traps, that's one thing. And definitely doable.

If you're using what's around you to Rube Goldberg a trap on the fly, that's a very different, and far more complicated, thing.

scenic spade
#

Just so you all know. I'm playing Witcher 3 right now. But don't believe I'm leaving Skyrim. Elder Scrolls games are still my favorite.

#

I'm just getting off of the Skyrim monotony. I have played this game a lot.

pale walrus
#

(just kidding)

feral viper
#

Wild Hunt is a pretty solid game. Though I did get bored of its open world.

Unlike a Bethesda game, it's open world feels more like a burden than an advantage.

scenic spade
feral viper
#

You can generally tell by how much damage it does. If you're using the wrong weapon, you'll do basically no damage.

#

Personally, I'm not keen on the whole Silver weapon thing... Very specific materials for specific creatures? Sure. But the whole general Silver thing is incredibly lazy to me.

scenic spade
scenic spade
#

Or maybe just wraiths. Not sure.

#

Hey anyway... Everyone, I have a roleplay related question.

#

My current Skyrim campaign has a character I simply call, "The Philosopher." He is many things.

As you would all surmise, he always seeks more knowledge and wisdom... I honestly wonder if he'd accept Harkon's vampirism since that will make him immortal and able to seek wisdom for all eternity until he gets killed.

#

Or is he gonna stick to his noble virtues and do what is right by sticking to Akatosh. Hmmm...

#

He is a lot like those Stoic philosophers from ancient real life Rome who embraces the value of having or developing virtue.

#

So his morals are strong. It's just that eternal life for eternal knowledge-seeking...

wide garnet
#

In my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction, I’ll mention this about my Dragonborn character, since we’re talking about our characters:

In ancient days, Alduin broke through the sky and assailed the ancient elves with war (||and also “hooking” Thedas and Mundus together||). In retaliation, the high priests of the ancient Dalish Elves gathered at Skyhold and “cast their seal to hold back the sky”. While this was meant to patch the hole Alduin tore into Thedas’ sky, it also cut the Dovah off from their ability to “blot out the sky and flood the land” with the Thu’um, but the opening of the Breach has put a hole in the seal, which is allowing them to, slowly but surely, regain their ancient powers.

But because Matthias is Dovahkiin (||and so is Miraak||), he’s also gaining new abilities and it’s also causing some physical and mental changes. Because of this, Matthias is secretly worrying that he’s losing himself (||he won’t||) or worse, he’s going to end up like Alduin. Even now, he’s feeling urges to use the Thu’um to strike down any obstacle that stands in his way of the throne of Cyrodiil.

scenic spade
wide garnet
scenic spade
wide garnet
#

Just making sure. So, what do you think?

scenic spade
wide garnet
# scenic spade More questions than answers... I guess my first question is... Who is more powe...

I’d say that Matthias (in the story) is more powerful than “Vanilla” Dragonborn because the Dovah are supposed to be quasi-divine entities, and the ancient seal is supposed to cut them off from their quasi-divine powers. However, the Breach has weakened the seal enough to allow the Dovah to regain their quasi-divine powers, but Matthias is both Dov and Joor, and this is causing some odd things to happen to him.

scenic spade
#

I'll go resume playing Skyrim. I just got done with a session of Mass Effect. That game is complicated as hell.

#

Mass Effect Andromeda, I mean. I've never played the others.

pale walrus
feral viper
#

Which is, again, a mechanic is absolutely hate, and think is incredibly lazy.

#

Ultimately, all it does is serve as equipment gaging. You must have X level of gear to fight Y enemy. It doesn't add anything to the setting, narrative, lore, or even engagement processes of gameplay beyond telling you that you don't meet the mandated power curve.

ancient gate
#

@magic dew why do you think Skyrim is a bad elder scrolls

pale walrus
#

I actually got some enjoyment out of BOTH the Skyrim and FO4 home/base building schemes, but of course found defects in both. I would prefer something 'down the middle', as it were. Perhaps in ES6 we can get the opportunity to restore a castle or keep that once guarded a road/trade route but had fallen into neglect and disrepair, perhaps being taken over by bandits or creatures. Upon clearing it out, I like the idea of restoring it to its former glory, staffing it with a guard force, and turning it into a trade hub so that it generates revenue besides being a place to store your loot. You'll need to hire soldiers/fighters for security, civilians to farm and/or produce manufactured goods (smithing items, pottery, etc), an in-house mage who can support the troops and provide products such as potions as well as services such as treating disease or injuries, and have room for traders to set up stalls for hawking their merchandise. You might even need a little roadside inn for travelers. If you can create 3 or 4 such keep/village combinations, that would be pretty neat.

eager remnant
#

I'd like to see something like Bloodmoon's single-location "build up raven rock' approach combined with the flexibility of Fallout 4's settlement building mechanics.

pale walrus
#
  1. Too many settlements. This didn't cause me major grief, but there's no need to have 10-15 settlements.
#
  1. The trade network. It wasn't obvious to me, even after repeated experimentation, what the most optimal setup was in this regard.
#
  1. Bugs. Some settlements refused to honor the setup you created in terms of assigning settlers to work tasks or beds. Others allowed raiders to spawn within the settlement boundaries even if you had completely fenced it off.
#

Otherwise, I enjoyed much of the FO4 approach.

waxen belfry
waxen belfry
feral viper
#

I think there are elements of the Settlement system which have a lot of value in TES... But not the whole thing.

#

First and foremost, furniture placement. Being able to actively place furniture and decorations within a space, rather than having preset configurations that you buy, would add a whole lot to the home life aspect of the games

#

Beyond that, I agree with Pseron. Utilising a more focused, single location application of it, like a combination of Raven Rock and Sim Settlements, would be the best option I think.

glass marlin
#

Agreed.

pseudo vale
#

I asked a scammer "what is the music of life," and they answered "means." what do you all think of this answer.

feral viper
#

Scammer sounds lame. Everyone knows it's the screams of the tortured and dying.

pale walrus
scenic spade
#

Hey, just as a random personal survey from me from Elder Scrolls fans...

Are any of you here athletes in any way? Any kind of person who goes to the gym and train for something. Consistently. Anyone?

#

This is just my personal curiosity for Elder Scrolls fans.

waxen belfry
waxen belfry
# scenic spade This is just my personal curiosity for Elder Scrolls fans.

James McAvoy is fit and he was such a fan of Oblivion he had to burn the CD because he was playing it so much that people thought he was on drugs when he was just playing as the Hero of Kvatch (or perhaps a Dark Brotherhood assassin). https://www.pcgamer.com/james-mcavoy-was-so-hooked-on-oblivion-he-had-to-burn-the-disc/

pcgamer
James McAvoy was so hooked on Oblivion he had to burn the disc

Nobody tell him about Skyrim, for the love of god.

pale walrus
pale walrus
# waxen belfry His legacy would be what I think could be explored. He became the Necromancer’s ...

My gut, however, tells me that he has further ambitions. After all, with greater power comes greater ambition (typically.) Look at the current set of divinities, both aedra and daedra. The Daedra compete with each other and with the Aedra. I bet Mannimarco wants to play in the sandbox as well, but is wary - after all, he's very unlikely to be the most powerful individual there. Thus, just like the Ideal Masters, Mannimarco probably wants to INCREASE his power.

scenic spade
pale walrus
scenic spade
#

I'm part of the fitness industry as a living. I get curious how many people in my gym play RPGs.

pale walrus
#

Addendum: if i had been smarter in my youth, I would have done much more calisthenics and far less weight training. Calisthenics is very healthy and makes you plenty strong. You have far fewer injuries, the injuries are far less severe, and you can preserve greater flexibility.

scenic spade
pale walrus
#

BTW: we need to get back to topic discussions. The mods discourage off-topic stuff like this.

pale walrus
scenic spade
#

(Edited. Read again please.)

scenic spade
# pale walrus 😃

I'm a dedicated powerlifter and Olympic-style lifter. Video games are a side hobby for me. It's more affordable than buying myself an Olympic caliber bow as a second hobby. MMA fees are steep enough as it is.

#

Just injured right now. I'm itching to get back into training.

pale walrus
# scenic spade Just injured right now. I'm itching to get back into training.

Take care and protect yourself. Eat right. Get plenty of rest. You know all this, don't take offense that I say these things. As you get older, your joints start showing evidence of trauma. When you get arthritis in any of them, life becomes unhappy. Look at Schwarzenegger - he has had both hips replaced (as far as I know) and has had surgeries on his shoulders and even multiple heart surgeries. Using steroids (he admits to doing so) undoubtedly contributed, but still - he pushed his body awfully hard, and as he got older, the effects showed.

scenic spade
# pale walrus Take care and protect yourself. Eat right. Get plenty of rest. You know all this...

Arnold and his ilk, in bodybuilding, powerlifting, Olympic lifting, and strongman, end up with busted joints and torn muscles because their muscle growth is so great due to the drugs that their tendons, ligaments, and joints can't keep up with the actual muscle belly growth. That's a guaranteed knee, hip, and back surgery.

The old school guys like Doug Hepburn, George Hackenschmit, Eugen Sandow, and Bill Pearl ended up being fine because their strength gains are as normal and natural as any human can hope for.

#

Steroid athletes are just a little different.

And yes, Pseron is about to shoo us back into getting into topic.

Understood, Mister Wyrd. Apologies.

eager remnant
#

Apology accepted. Now let's move the discussion of athletics to #off-topic please. 🙂

scenic spade
#

I like how in some conversations of the Companions, they actually give each other training advice.

#

"But ten little cuts"

"All I need is one to cut you in half."

#

I like Orcs better, but it seems like Nords have a DNA advantage when it comes to sheer strength. Skjor and Kodlak defeating 101 Orc warriors, for instance.

#

Add to that the fact that giants and Nords both are Atmorans.

pale walrus
scenic spade
feral viper
#

Basically, the (and probably all Humans) are descended from Giants.

Unfortunately, we are unlikely to see anything more regarding that lineage, as Giants aren't common outside of Skyrim.

#

As with many things regarding Nordic culture and history, Skyrim's fear of confusing Oblivion players meant that most of their identity and heritage was left on the cutting room floor.

scenic spade
#

I care more about the orcs anyway.

scenic spade
#

A game that has the same scope as Skyrim and has the depth of Divinity OS2 would be the greatest RPG ever made.

#

For real. It'll blow Witcher 3 out of the water.

#

Imagine one faction having as much content as the Companions, the Thieves Guild, and the Winterhold College combined. And having the usual number of four major factions in an Elder Scrolls game...

Good grief. And then expand the map into even bigger?

#

There will be no limit to what you can roleplay in such a game.

scenic spade
#

Okay okay okay. I've had enough of this...

I know ES6 release date is still a mystery, but there's gotta be some confirmed information about anything about it other than the Starfield Hammerfell reference. Come on. Anything? An official title? A faction. An NPC from Skyrim that rolls over to the ES6 story? Come on man.

There's a limit to how much Bethesda can hide stuff. Are there severe legal repercussions if even just one of their thousands of employees leak a tiny bit of (truthful) information about it? It's getting annoying.

#

It's almost 2025. When is Bethesda gonna show a lengthier trailer? Come on man.

pale walrus
#

Maybe they should just cancel it. After all, they have a hit Fallout show, boosting interest in creating FO5. They intend to create multiple DLCs for SF. And for those who want to explore more of Tamriel, ESO will eventually cover all the provinces fully.

#

Yeah, they should cancel ES6.

scenic spade
#

Any (typo. Correction.)

nimble pond
#

So then, what you guys think about TES7?

#

And more importantly, magic spells that directly change and affect "physics" (like how we got constantly flung by Giants). Make your butter knife sword small, but overwhelmingly pack-a-punch.

feral viper
#

I think, given the presence of such powers in Starfield, that such a magical effect is more than possible.

pale walrus
feral viper
#

Nah, Physics-Altering magic is just plain Alteration. Mysticism at best.

pale walrus
#

How about a plane or sub-plane with non-Euclidean geometry? Could be interesting.

feral viper
#

There have been a few games which have played with the idea... And honestly, I think it's above the IQ for most gamers.

#

But I personally enjoy such things.

scenic spade
#

What makes no sense is the fact that most Nords are built like Chris Hemsworth without eating or working out like Chris Hemsworth.

livid ingot
#

Very familiar with most of these issues, although I never noticed the weird placement of the Market District before!

eager remnant
#

The Imperial City is my least favorite city of all the cities BGS has created.

livid ingot
#

It is something of a problem child!

#

My only real disagreement with the creator of the video is the single bridge. It makes sense the Imperial government would want to try to control traffic in and out of the IC. A single bridge is also beneficial to the defense, not a liability.
What the IC needed was not more bridges, but more ferries (and probably a drawbridge for the main causeway)

#

There of course also seems to be intended an inner moat around the fortress proper, but it essentially provides no real function in the way it's designed in game

scenic spade
eager remnant
# livid ingot My only real disagreement with the creator of the video is the single bridge. It...

Shadiversity agrees with you about the effectiveness of a single bridge during sieges. But he finds a number of other problems. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KnSrTb4qpI&t=621s

YouTube
Shadiversity
Does Oblivion's IMPERIAL CITY have realistic defences? PART 1

Does the Imperial City from the Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion have realistic castle / medieval style defences? Well in this analysis and review we'll find out.

Medieval city Carcassonne: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcassonne

Hochosterwitz Castle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochosterwitz_Castle

And this is how you spell machicolations ^_^

▶ Play video
feral viper
#

I... I hate the Imperial City. More than any other example, it embodies the Theme Park Gift Shop feel of Oblivion's cities.

#

Skingrad's main drag feels more Urban than any other city in that entire game, and the Imperial City is the most egregious example.

#

It's to open, too clean, too organised and regular and just feels like you're at Disneyland buying an over priced plastic cup.

violet lily
#

...that might be the best way to describe Oblivion's cities that I've yet seen. Perfectly captures the issues.

#

I usually have described Oblivion as being "too shiny", not just because of the bloom/glowing faces issues, but also yeah, a bit too tidy everywhere

feral viper
#

They're clearly designed for a game, to direct the player and make purchasing goods easy. Which is retail design, not urban design

feral viper
#

I have a very low opinion of Oblivion as a whole however, and it's general environmental design is yet another of the games many failings.

pale walrus
#

"Insipid" and "Bland" are the words that immediately come to mind regarding Oblivion's landscape, architecture and NPC renderings. I am hoping BGS takes a very decisive step in a different direction in ES6. A potential source of inspiration should be David Lean's "Lawrence of Arabia", which I am re-watching now on YT. The visuals for that film are utterly spectacular. The whole film is a sublime work of art at the same level as that of the Renaissance and Impressionist masters.

dapper sluice
#

Anyone have any console mod suggestions to make NPCs look better especially Borgahk the Steel-Heart

feral viper
#

I'm still of the opinion that singular influences are the problem. Or at least a significant part of the problem. As it is, Hammerfell has gone from being a blend of Shogunate Japan, Carribean Age of Sail, Ottoman Empire, and Madagascar Pirate Coast, to a pretty standard 'Arabian' trope.

#

While Lawrence of Arabia IS a fantastic film (also, I highly recommend Sabaton's song Pillars of Wisdom) and worth of being considered as an influence... So too should Shogun. So too should Master and Commander and Horatio Hornblower (at least as far as sailing goes).

#

Hell, I'd even throw in some Persian and Punic to that mix.

#

Maybe a dash of Korean.

#

The goal should be a people and culture that are distinct, and not immediately recognizable as something from the real world. Mix and match characteristics to create something novel, don't just parody reality and call it creativity.

livid ingot
#

There was a modest effort made at drawing more heavily from Africa as inspiration for TES's Redguards. But it didn't really gain much traction. You have a few assets for the TES Adventures game but that's nearly it

#

Tamriel Rebuilt's Oblivion project tried to massage this aspect a bit more but it of course was canceled

#

But yeah, having one domineering inspiration for all the designs is rather uninspired. You ought to draw from so many things that you create something that feels genuinely new

#

Like some of the TR designs employed Inuit "sunglasses" in their designs for their dune dwellers which were their Bedouin or Tuareg analogue for Redguard nomads living in the Alik'r. They ended up looking really cool.

#

It just goes to show there really is no limit from what you can borrow from and make it work

#

Of course, we get caught up talking about IRL inspirations but I think just making up fantastic details to awe the player deserves more attention

feral viper
#

You also have to factor in believability. Because people don't necessarily believe what is true.

For example, people are still in awe of the Charge of the Rohirrim at Pelenor Fields. Tell them that the real world had a cavalry charge 3x that size, and they look at you like you're crazy.

eager remnant
feral viper
#

I think, if you can look at an NPC, and immediately understand what their culture is about why it 'values', and how it behaves, based on real world tropes... Then the worldbuilder has failed at their job..

#

Because you can't even accurately do that in the REAL WORLD, the world those tropes are based on. So why would you be able to do so in a fictional one?

raven current
#

Different times and peoples have had different ideas about colors and shapes and so forth.

nimble pond
#

Groovy Argonian 🕺 💃

pale walrus
feral viper
#

Instead, we end up with one dimensional tropes driving fictional cultures. So Viking BECOMES a people, for some stupid reason.

#

And on top of that, we get the idiotic trend of 'All of X race have X culture'. Like, not only is Race as a concept fundamentally wrong, and born of bigotry...

But even within the backwards ideas of race, there are HUNDREDS of different cultures for each race. Why are our standards in fiction so low?

pale walrus
#

I'd use the term 'tribes.' It's a more flexible term and yet, despite that flexibility, is more accurate and applicable. For example: the Alik'r are a desert tribe that is divided into further 'sub-tribes.' They may share a common culture in a broad sense, but they nevertheless are distinct from one another probably thru family ties, individual customs and mores, and likely even fashion choices. Think of the Bedu in the Arabian peninsula as a reference point.

#

In terms of avoiding stereotypical associations from appearance, the Alik'r can again serve as a reference. Think of how the bedu tribes distinguish themselves from each other in particular clothing details such as color, patterns and style. And notice how the Bedu resemble the Tuareg in terms of their desert clothing being voluminous and billowing, but differ in terms of cut and color - quite dramatically so. BGS could use those and, perhaps, the clothing of nomadic tribes in the central asian steppe as reference points, and then find a very creative and artistic designer to develop a fashion standard unique to the alik'r and its sub-tribes. Of course, such a person should have creative license to create other fashions as well so that if an Alik'r nomad chieftain decides to visit some place like Rihad or Sentinel, he can put on the equivalent of a three piece suit and gucci loafers for that 'urban chic' look. 😉 This all boils down to putting in the work with a focus on quality of result rather than expediency.

left apex
#

I have a technical question. Was procedural generation used in Skyrim's development? I know that procedural generation was used in Oblivion's development but I'm curious if it was also used in Skyrim's development.

eager remnant
# left apex I have a technical question. Was procedural generation used in Skyrim's developm...

My recollection is that at the time of release Bethesda stated that they opted for a more hand-crafted approach to Skyrim's landscape. I searched for a quote and managed to find this on a few sites: "Efforts to making Skyrim's world feel hand-crafted extended to the team abandoning the use of generated landscapes as they had done in Oblivion. " I can find no source for this quote, but it does align with what I remember either Hines or Howard saying at the time.

left apex
feral viper
# pale walrus I'd use the term 'tribes.' It's a more flexible term and yet, despite that flexi...

In a technical sense, Tribes are typically defined as like cultural communities who marry within the group, as opposed to Clans who marry between groups. So the Ushilaku are a Tribe, because Ushilaku tend to marry other Ushilaku, while the Battleborn are a Clan because they tend to marry non-Battleborn.

Beyond that, we not divide things up into Ethnigroups or Ethnicities, rather than Race.

For instance, there is no such thing as Native Americans as a 'Race'. What we have are some 20 (last I checked) Ethnicities native to the Americas, ranging from the Algonquian to the Mesoamerican to the Innu etc. Each then have subdivisions driven by geographic or cultural delimitation, such as the Algonquin Ethnigroup consisting of at least 7 different and distinct tribal cultures.

The 7 'traditional Races' we are still unfortunately taught in school do not exist, and have been replaced with some 650 distinct Ethnogroups globally. And through those Ethnogroups we have developed more than 5000 currently extant cultures, with more than 15,000 historically identified ones.

#

Now, do I expect that level of depth and variability?

No. That is unreasonable for any worldbuilder.

#

But I desperately want something MORE than what we've gotten for the last two decades, with the writers clinging to outdated, oversimplified and fundamentally racist concepts and presenting monolithic ethnogroups who have no distinction beyond artistic style in their cities..

feral viper
#

Ultimately though, that's probably neither here nor there. Shattered Space has utterly failed to renew my confidence in Bethesda's ability to deliver on something even close to Morrowind's cultural quality, despite literal decades of us talking about it, so there really isn't much more to say on the matter.

#

Not to say that the DLC has been entirely without merit of course. But the Va'ruun culture is as bland and pointless as basically everyone else's in Starfield, and everyone we've gotten since Oblivion first distracted us from banality with butterflies.

#

I DO think, however, there are some mechanical changes that have come forth with Shattered Space that show immense promise. Especially for TES.

pale walrus
#

I read several reviews of Shattered Space. Sounds like it failed to add depth to the SF universe. There are additional complaints about the paucity of new content - several hours of gameplay in exchange for $30. This does not bode well for ES6.

feral viper
#

It's got ups and downs. I don't fault Bethesda themselves for the price tag, that's Marketing Departments that do that, and 'Over Priced' is basically the motto of video game marketing.

#

The added lore is... There. Its mostly the same quality as baseline Starfield, which is why I have written off greater depth and thoughtfulness from future titles.

The actual world space is Bethesda. It's what they do, and when they actually do it (instead of relying on bare bones, barely functioning procedural generation) they do amazing work. Va'ruunka is probably the single best designed worldspace in all of Starfield.

Some of the tangential mechanics and systems are also a great direction. The Difficulty Options have been split up into half a dozen different sliders, offering far greater customization. Shipbuilding (or structure building, hint hint) features have been expanded and refined. The ability to unlock new parts and structures from quest rewards and interactions rather than just through Skills is fantastic. And the ability to manually decorate your ships interior could be an awesome thing to adapt to TES.

#

Melee combat is still absolute garbage however, and the propensity to be given melee weapons in spite of that is almost insulting.

feral viper
#

Ultimately though, while Starfield HAS elements that are good, it's still an inferior starting foundation to what we got with Skyrim. Which is why I'm in here, instead of down in Starfield general, to talk about the future of RPGs.

pale walrus
#

So: some really interesting mechanics directions, but lore/story is lackluster. Fair summary?

#

Whatever is happening to SF is, I assume, going to reflect our experience when ES6 is released.

frank cedar
#

According to IMDB ES6 is in “Post-Production.”

#

But ill take that with a grain of salt.

scenic spade
#

Hey, who here actually like Oblivion better than Skyrim?

#

I'm leaving Morrowind off of this conversation for now.

frank cedar
#

If the game is in Post Production that means it’s close, but I’m not taking this with a handful of salt, just a grain

pale walrus
pale walrus
scenic spade
#

Well, as a game, I like Skyrim better. But as a setting? I enjoy spending time in Cyrodiil better. It took some hard work before I can get acclimated to the dated graphics. But now, I appreciate it for what it is. Cyrodiil is beautiful.

#

And I like closing Oblivion gates more than killing dragons.

pale walrus
#

That's part of the problem (at least for me.) It's too much of a 'park' setting.

scenic spade
eager remnant
scenic spade
eager remnant
# scenic spade Am I an awful person for liking it?

No, absolutely not! Like or dislike whatever you want. Do not let anyone tell you that you are a bad person for liking a video game. Anyone who even suggests such a thing is no friend to you. You go ahead and like whatever you want to like, play whatever you want to play, and do not listen to people who try to run you down for it.

pale walrus
# scenic spade Can you please explain?

Sorry, man - had to step away for dinner. OK, so - the park-like character of Oblivion. All the outdoor environments seemed like 'sylvan woodlands.' Very peaceful, green, gently rolling hills, bountifully leaved trees with their branches gently swaying in the breeze.....there was no potential for menace like there was in Skyrim. Those environments had spectacular scenery, with ice capped peaks, dramatic and sinister ruins in the distance, and forests with a real wildness about them, where you expected that you could easily run into a grizzly, a big gray wolf or something unnatural. Throw in some roaring, voluminous rivers with falls and rapids and you are IN THE WILD! It was exilirating.

#

Then there were the cities of Oblivion. They all looked like museums, or touristy medieval villages you might see in Western Europe. I'd actually call them Disneyfied. Again, contrast that with Skyrim's decidedly medieval stone cities. Windhelm, Whiterun and Solitude really stood out in that respect, though Windhelm was actually even sinister of aspect. But if you went o Lleyawin, Bravil, the Imperial City or any of the other urban areas of Cyrodiil, it was about as menacing as Disneyland in Anaheim.

#

Finally, the NPCs. All of the Oblivion ones had the same round, expressionless faces along with the movement of cartoonish puppets. The contrast with Skyrim was profound. Granted, the Skyrim NPCs weren't terribly expressive either, but they were far more convincing, especially because their features weren't all smooth and round.

pale walrus
scenic spade
#

@pale walrus

The way I see it, you need a sunshine and rainbows type of setting to ravage with the Oblivion Crisis.

Oblivion is hailed by many to be a top tier game. I don't know if I feel happy or sad that I meet people here who like Skyrim better. I personally like Skyrim better, but I've come to appreciate Oblivion almost just as much.

#

I love the Arena in Oblivion. I love how inside of your team base, you and the others have training equipment to improve your skills. A punching bag, a hitting metal board for swords, target practice for bows, and bedrolls. I work for the fitness industry and I'm a competitive powerlifter. So I love that stuff. The best Skyrim has are the Imperial army's training dummies and target practice by the Solitude barracks.

#

You have Farkas and the others in the Companions teaching the teammates how to swing a sword, how to train, but zero actual training equipment.

nimble pond
nimble pond
#

Since you bring up sunlight. I do like the sun spells introduction and maybe get some moon and star magic to go with in the future.

strange flare
#

Shengqu Games ran a short-lived elder scroll IP game years ago?

feral viper
#

To answer the question. I... Do not like Oblivion.

While there is nothing specifically wrong wth most of its individual components. They just don't fit together in any worthwhile way.

The result is a product that is worse than what came before, and what came after, and has no real value of its own.

#

It's not New Vegas, aggressively bad... But its so heavily mediocre you can't even learn lessons from it.

feral viper
#

Come to think of it... If you were to release Oblivion, today, and tell me it was entirely made by generative AI, I would:

A, tell you I can tell

B, be actually quite impressed.

C, probably launch into a side conversation about the ethics of generative AI in creative fields.

scenic spade
#

Oh man, Terical. lol... Your contempt for it is strong. lol

#

It took some adjustment for me, but after enough hours of playing it, I came to like it. lol. I didnt realize there are people who have some almost eternal contempt for it like you do, Terical.

livid ingot
#

Everybody likes punching Oblivion for its failings. Even me, and I like Oblivion, so I can understand many of the criticisms. I've always been more curious about Terical's dislike of New Vegas, since I think all of my own friends who've played the Fallout series (I have not) point to New Vegas as their favorite of the Bethesda-owned ones.

#

But this isn't the place to discuss that, so let's not

eager remnant
#

Oblivion takes a drubbing in this chat but elsewhere - YouTube comments sections being one place I see this - I am astonished at the reverence for Oblivion. The number of times I've heard people say Oblivion is their favorite Elder Scrolls game is truly remarkable.

raven current
#

TES4 was fun as hell, a lot of this criticism's more aside from that

feral viper
#

Now, that doesn't mean I didn't still sink 300 hours into Oblivion. For all of its many, many, many failings, it's still a Bethesda game. And it still scratches that itch that no one else can reach.

rose pagoda
#

Man i just hope the next game has a great story and is written well Sad am so scared they are going to try to do too much crazy new stuff when all i want is a well crafted world. No procedurally generated anything. If they wanna do something new, flesh out the magic system or add sailing.

feral viper
#

Well... Bethesda hasn't had a well written story in over 20 years, so don't get your hopes up.

Procedural generation also isn't the problem. POOR procedural generation is.

river wraith
hollow violet
#

Sup, i have written a critique about Starfield, but i can't post on X too long, Anybody would be interested to post it on Reddit ?

feral viper
#

R/gaming and r/Starfeld may be good places for it.

feral viper
hollow violet
feral viper
#

That's definitely part of it, I think. But I also think that the problems are more general, and more across the board.

Mechanics, though often brilliant conceptually, never get refined sufficiently to make them shine.

Art direction is haphazard and inconsistent from title to title.

Basic quality of life systems aren't included at launch, or at all in some cases.

And the list can go on.

#

Bethesda's brilliance lies in concept, but it has consistently struggled in the execution.

#

Their general approach was fine 15 years ago, when Open World games were rare. But they are now the norm in the industry, and Bethesda has actual competition. And they need to react to that market change.

#

Instead, they keep making games designed around a 2005 ethos.

#

Man, that sequence bugged out for them... Mine was way more chaotic.

#

But the fact it can bug out in such a way does highlight part of the problem.

gloomy anchor
#

Please keep this channel on Elder scrolls

hollow violet
#

lmao i have stumbled on the kraken!

feral viper
#

Indeed. Tying it back...

You cannot have cinematic moments in your story without having control over how the world and the characters in it react. When you're using the standard generalised systems and expecting them to react in a certain way without fine tuning, you're opening yourself up for trouble.

#

Imagine if, during the Alduin sequence, none of the AI's flight commands triggered. And everyone just stood around like nothing was going on.

hollow violet
#

I thought about that. But Baldur's Gates 3 happened. The idea that immersion or depth of storytelling can’t be scaled with a generic character has been disproven. So i hope they explore that for TES VI.

feral viper
#

That's a fair point.

#

Though that makes many of their... Responses to criticism even more disingenuous. Thinks like NPC reactions, cell instancing, transition from space to ground, etc...

#

The CLAIM is that they weren't viable. But we've literally seen those things in other games. So we know they CAN be done.

hollow violet
#

The idea would be to make progress in the first step, no one expects TESVI to turn into Mass Effect. It's definitely doable if you see it as a progressive step. You have the ressources for it if you don't aim for 1000 planets to develop.

feral viper
#

Indeed.

Though, there's a lot of work that needs to be done. And I suspect (and fear) that they have already missed the point, and are aiming for Bigger rather than Better.

#

Not that general discourse helps. The number of people asking for 2 provinces, or even all of Tamriel grows every day.

hollow violet
#

damn, they are people asking for that? lmao. they like to suffer.

feral viper
#

Regularly. Sometimes I feel like I'm the crazy one for objecting.

hollow violet
#

What is certain for me is they don't have the people to do that at the moment, at least in regards to their last releases. The talent pool hasn't been built to scale up that part of the studio skillset

#

And that's not a money thing, frankly,...larian comes from DOS2 money? Skyrim has sold more than 60 millions

feral viper
#

Starfield was their most successful launch. By some miracle. So yeah, I doubt money is the issue.

#

I suspect the issue lies more with Management and Direction, but that's entirely based on publicly available discourse and a critique of the end product, as I have no insider information to reinforce it.

hollow violet
#

Yeah, that's obviously a higher ups issue. You can't be outgunned so much by recent releases otherwise. I mean 60m copies sold, 4 billion download on nexus, half the modding ever done is done on your games. that's an immense ressource base to be outgunned in all areas of entertainment design by Guerilla, CDProjekt, Larian etc...these guys we're pratically noname back in 2011.

feral viper
#

Now, all of this isn't to say 'Bethesda Sucks'. As I've said many times, Bethesda is brilliant, and does things no one else does.

However, there is a difference between innovating, and innovating well.

#

Fallout 4s dialogue system is my go-to example of this. It's brilliant. But it's burdened by the terrible Cinematic Camera that they tacked onto it to mimic BioWare, and it's never utilised well.

#

It COULD have been magnificent. But somewhere along the line, decisions were made that practically guaranteed it's poor reception.

And because of that poor reception, we got the gag Starfield Dialogue system. Which took the worst parts of Oblivion and Skyrim, and made something truely revolting.

#

Though apparently you can turn off some part of the absolutely laughable Zoom and make it somewhat stomachable now...

hollow violet
#

That doesn't change the writings tho. Which is a disaster in the last release.

feral viper
#

Oh no. But Bethesda's writing has never been great.

Even in Morrowind, the actual dialogue from characters is.. amateur to competent at best.

hollow violet
#

There is some level of handcrafted atmosphere and world building to compensate there, and a superb artistic vision in morriwind

feral viper
#

But ultimately, writing is a bonus. It's not what makes someone play a game. A game can stand in good mechanics alone, but the best writing isn't going to support a barely playable game.

hollow violet
#

In 2024, i'm not so sure about writing not being important when it come to an open world based on quest and worldbuilding. The others deliver it so why should i buy your game that doesn't?

feral viper
#

It's a give and take, to be sure.

hollow violet
#

the tone of the last release is very very blend, neutral, like water. idk why they did go that way. On skyrim you got skulls in the mandatory first dungeon.

#

Not that it's attractive but just

feral viper
#

But I should stipulate that I've... Well, I've written off The Elder Scrolls as a setting. Not only do I not think Bethesda can execute on worldbuilding and story, the trend since Morrowind (including ESO) has told me that they don't want the same things from the setting that i do.

So I made the decision a few months back to just give up on the setting entirely.

#

My presence here is more because I think Fantasy fits their general strengths in game design the best (gun base RPGs just turn into bullet sponge hells) and Skyrim has the best foundation to build on for a truely revolutionary RPG.

#

If I thought the best foundation was Fallout, or Starfield, I'd spend my time in those channels instead.

hollow violet
#

Your game has gunfights and knife stabbing, frankly, i don't see why you go soft. Yeah i think fantasy seem to be better handled by them, tho, the premise of SF as a 1000 planets space game, if you make a single solar system game you might have a similar to structure to TES. and then it's not the setting anymore.

feral viper
#

I don't fault the scale of Starfield, I more fault the terrible use of Procedural generation. The goal was a cast universe to explore, and to evoke the sense of being the first person to ever step on many of these planets. But then your procedural generation drops prefab structurs and pirates everywhere, so no matter where you go, you have something to shoot.

Though this sorta plays into a wider problem with Bethesda's games, and one which I think started with Oblivion. The lack of adherence to a Theme.

#

It can be on a game by game basis, but if you don't have a theme or consistent feel you're trying to use to direct your decisions, and your only driving force is 'Open world playground", of course your games are going to feel souless and disjointed.

#

And while Starfield is a recent example of this, where the 'theme' was discovery but the actual way the game is constructed and relayed makes it feel like everything is already explored (I mean, hell, the Starborn basically eliminate the exploration into the unknown of the Unity) I think there is a more powerful and TES related example.

Oblivion.

hollow violet
#

You can't densify and increment the entertainment and player engagement with content that is delivered through or around procedural generation. Maybe when there is AGI software, that could become possible but not today

feral viper
#

Nah, it's totally doable. You just need to build sufficiently robust procedural generation systems.

Unfortunately, it seems that only Indie-Devs are willing to put that work in. The big guys just rely on the barely functional 'It just works' and then leave it at that

#

Procedural generation is fantastic for certain things. But you can't use it to do everything. Yet.

hollow violet
#

You think about Valheim ? Because i don't see any implementation that would satisfy the standard needed in the Open World RPG market

feral viper
#

7 Days to Die, Minecraft, Hell, even Starfield's was fine if you remove 99% of structures.

#

Procedural generation is great for creating landscaped and natural-feeling environments. But it struggles to handle intentionally constructed (such as settlements and structures)

hollow violet
#

Oh i see what's your point, okay tho i'm fairly sure most players get rid of it for the last release, even with a better implementation, if it's mean it's replaced by handcrafted

feral viper
#

I don't play Valheim, myself, but I know when I play such games I never use the hand made map. Too predictable and exploitable in a game where exploration and resource acquisition is important.

hollow violet
#

The games you named aren't in the genre we're speaking about

#

Procedural problaby can work eventually with great efforts, but not necessarily with BGS, the CE, or BGS franchises

feral viper
#

No, but I don't think fixating in Genre is important for mechanics or systems. Vermintide isn't an RPG either, but it's vastly superior combat still have value to consider.

#

For instance, in terms of Procedural generation in TES. Use it to map the world space, cutting out busy work in creating natural environments. Rough heighmap, paint biomes, and then let the Procedural Generator place trees and rocks.

#

You then go through and 'prune' the world, placing in structures and settlements.

hollow violet
#

Yes but that end up helping the dev deliver handcrafted content in the end

#

in the last release, the entire scene is generic and procedural

feral viper
#

Well yeah. That's the value of Procedural Generation currently. Taking care of the busy work so you can invest more time into the handcrafted parts.

hollow violet
#

every opportunities of gameplay within that scene is generic

feral viper
#

Absolutely. And while those CAN exist, they shouldn't be relied on to make the bulk of content.

#

Though considering Shattered Space, I'm not sure Bethesda should be relied on to do that either

hollow violet
#

Yes you can even have a galaxy scale procedural thing like Elite Dangerous if you want as long as it's only bonus content or lore aiding assets

#

The bulk of game must be densely crafted

feral viper
#

Yeah, the problem isn't procedural generation. It's BAD procedural generation.

#

Like, most still don't recognise that Oblivion wasn't a entirely hand crafted world.

hollow violet
#

Yes but that game delivers too much value in 2006 even through generic content, the benefits/loss ratio is extremely good

feral viper
#

Eeeh, I don't think it really delivers any value, but thats a whole other topic.

#

I actually think even post-Starfield, Oblivion remains the worst game Bethesda has ever made.

hollow violet
#

Well you get a region-sized zone to visit, with the content voiced up to fill in.

#

I think Oblivion is the highest technical breakthrough of bethesda in regards to competition at release time

feral viper
#

They didn't have competition at the time. We played Oblivion because there was nothing else to fill that void.

hollow violet
#

Exactly man 🙂

#

You are usain bolt because no one can do it

#

If you are usain bolt in a country filled with space marines that's another situation

feral viper
#

But unlike other Bethesda game, Oblivion didn't add new mechanics or systems to engage with.

Most it offered was Radiant AI, and that was about as anemic as you can possibly be

hollow violet
#

you know that the closest bioware RPG to release with oblivion (2006) is Jade Empire (2005)

feral viper
#

Radiant AI kinda embodies Bethesda's problems. It was a great idea that caused problems. And instead of examine and address those problems, they just lobotomised Radiant AI to the point of irrelevance.

hollow violet
#

Look its oblivion for what it is, region sized zone, realistic body and object physics, day night cycle, full voice acting, mount. For quite long, the IMP city is the biggest BGS city, even to this day, quite big. Release : 2006

feral viper
#

I wouldn't even call the Imperial City a City. It's a gift shop for a theme park.

#

But, I'm not going to go into a 'why everything in Oblivion is terrible' rant today.

#

I have no respect for that game.

hollow violet
#

Oblivion deserve much more tolerance for it's shortcoming being a Creation Engine demo a few years after it's being created than Starfield 20 years after lmao. because certainly nothing of substance has changed as you said in the design approach

feral viper
#

I fought to love Morrowind. It took me a few years following the disappointment for how different it was from Daggerfall. But I got there.

I have never been able to get there with Oblivion.

hollow violet
#

Maybe skyblivion will change that

feral viper
#

We shall see.

Ultimately, even if it does, I think Tamriel as a setting is dead for me. 20 years of having to actively search for things to like about it amongst of sea of things I hate is too long.

#

So it's Mechanics and Systems for me. That's what's left.

river wraith
#

I just hope they can get back to the basics of compelling fantasy story-telling. A good selection of deep characters propelling a wide ranging narrative through their own personal motivations, well expressed through emotive dialogue. It's the basic recipe of fiction, as told even in the most amatuer of writer's circles, yet Bethesda never seem to key in on this where other developers do. How do you spend hundreds of millions on the back of something that a decent amatuer writer wouldn't waste ten minutes of their time on?

feral viper
#

Without naming names... I don't think they CAN. I think their confidence in their writing abilities is overblown, and they actively lack the ability to write compelling characters or engaging narratives.

#

So it's not an issue of getting back to it. I think they need to actually hire people who know how to do it in the first place.

river wraith
feral viper
#

I'm sure Brian and Kevin will be glad.

#

As in, Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, authors of the much maligned Dune Continuation books.

river wraith
#

It's crazy, there are incredible fantasy writers out there that are pumping out stuff that would shame BGS writers for a fraction of what they must be getting paid.

feral viper
#

Even within their own sphere. ZoS has been consistently out shining Bethesda, even with TES.

I don't LIKE most of it, but it's still superior in a critical respect.

#

Though, I will say, while I think most of the stories in Starfield are downright dreadful, they are definitely TOLD better than in Fallout 4 or Skyrim.

So there has been clear improvement there which suggests that, regardless of what the story for TES6 is, it will at least be structurally better, and told in better way with better pacing, than Skyrim.

gloomy anchor
#

Please remember there is a fine line between having a negative opinion and bashing which is against the #rules

feral viper
#

I am trying to stay on the correct side of that line. Perhaps unsuccessfully.

gloomy anchor
#

just do not target the people who are working hard. even if you do not like the content that was created if that makes sense.

feral viper
#

Oh absolutely.

#

There is a reason I generally try to mix in recommendations with my criticisms. Though I've been rather laxed with that today.

nimble pond
#

Random idea for the day: I like telekinesis, flinging crap at people. But I wanna take it up a notch. I'd like a spell to make a cyclone, but that also sucks up anything near it around and around. So, say I drop like 100 cabbages. Then I can cast the spell, and watch enemies get clobbered in the head over and over by cabbages in the cyclone till death by cabbages. But that's not enough, for the finale, I'd like set the cabbages on fire while all this happening. 🔥

feral viper
#

I'm not sure how to execute such a thing with general clutter objects... But I think it could be really cool to explore.

river wraith
feral viper
#

I think, from a purely structural perspective, the best mechanism for constructive criticism is:

State what you think is bad.

State what you think it is bad.

State how you think it can be improved.

#

Unfortunately, we sometimes get derailed before step 3.

pale walrus
scenic spade
nimble pond
#

And the cabbage has to be on fire too ofc

#

And a lil button that launches it out and then retracts it, like those fake ice cream toys.

#

Weapons that can retract or pull enemies back would be nice. I hate when my toys run away from me..

livid ingot
#

Telekinesis was one of those spells that, conceptually, should have been super fun. But it's so handicapped intentionally or no, and so awkward to use it's nearly useless and extremely situational.

#

You should have been pulling distant levers, pulling items through iron bars, thrashing your opponents with household objects like Jackie Chan

#

But instead it's sometimes useful, mainly if your Sneak isn't good enough yet or something just happens to be annoyingly out of reach

#

It was better in Morrowind before the physics engine, which is a total shame

pale walrus
#

I will forgive BGS the delayed release of ES6 as well as any mistakes they might make in developing the game & its features provided they do ONE thing: they have to have a PC follower in the form of...Powdered Toast Man.

scenic spade
#

I want a weightlifting skill tree that gives passives to our melee attack effectiveness, carry weight capacity, sprinting speed, and the ability to improve our jumps. And then give them a special power attack that involves a knockback effect when our character kicks the enemy. And maybe the ability to spawn a small boulder and throw it on an enemy.

dim reef
# scenic spade I want a weightlifting skill tree that gives passives to our melee attack effect...

Bro wants to play doom slayer in elder scrolls, but at least half of these effects were already covered by stats in morrowind or oblivion - stats they made the decision to water down or outright remove, most likely due to their potential for game breaking. If I remember right, Todd really doesn’t like magic and spreadsheets being used together, supposedly spreadsheets ‘take the magic out of magic’ 😆 Using kicks sounds super fun for an unarmed monk like the one I’m playing right now in MW.

feral viper
#

For good reason. The old approach to Spellcrafting was... Not good.

That said, Skyrim's approach to stats would more than account for any of that, without the need to resort to the old Attribute system. A system which was clunky and poorly relayed anyway.

pale walrus
#

Wait - IIRC in Skyrim you can use your shield or use your weapon in blocking mode to stun an attacker. Having strength bonuses to melee, inventory capacity and other things should be doable without breaking the game. It's been done before.

nimble pond
#

While not purely melee.. I could go for a conjuration spell summons me an extra pair of fists! I'm sure Mora would offer us a variation of that with whipping tentacles for a Cthulhu build.

wide garnet
pale walrus
#

Slight change of subject: Armor.

#

A peev regarding Skyrim armor - there were multiple instances where I simply didn't like its appearance. Example: Daedric armor was garish and kind of silly-looking. Example: ebony armor looked bizarre - it made the wearer look like a pear. A bright spot, by contrast, was steel armor, which looked pretty good. But for the most part, armor needs a rework artistically.

scenic spade
pale walrus
eager remnant
#

I thought Daedric armor in Skyrim was a vast improvement over Daedric armor in Morrowind.

scenic spade
#

I want some to make me a mod where a livestock pen will exist on the areas outside of Markarth for my daily eggs and milk.

#

Markarth Vlindrell Hall is my.m favorite house in Skyrim. Markarth feels so secure.

#

I should probably have that modder add extra guards or mercenaries to protect Markarth even more.

#

And maybe be able to slaughter those cows every now and then for the beef. And have the killed cow respawn after a week in game time.

#

They already got those crops outside of Markarth, so definitely add those livestocks. lol

pale walrus
#

QUESTION TO EVERYONE WHO POSTS HERE: Have you ever used the Creation Club tools? If Yes, how easy or difficult are they to use?

eager remnant
pale walrus
eager remnant
#

I'm not sure what you mean by "tools." Are you talking about the Creation Kit (the app used to make mods)?

#

EDIT: Re-reading your second post I think I misunderstood your question. You are asking about making mods, not downloading Creation Club item, correct? If so, there is a leaning curve involved. It took me about a good month before I felt like I knew what I was doing in Morrowind's Construction Set. Each iteration of the software has gotten a little more advanced since then, as you might imagine. If you are interested in making mods I'd suggest practicing on one of the existing games first, to get a feel for how the software works.

livid summit
#

Is there a dedicated server for clans, discussions, guilds, and trading for Elder Scrolls Online?

nocturne stone
pale walrus
scenic spade
raven current
#

Do you mean the Creation Kit?

pale walrus
#

Yup. Creation Kit. Pseron gave me the answer. Looking forward to trying it out.

pale walrus
#

Just saw this article - a mini-review of Shattered Space DLC that includes commentary on ES6 expectations and the history of ES and FO development. WARNING - this is no powder-puff article. https://www.thegamer.com/the-elder-scrolls-6-needs-to-be-completely-different-starfield-shattered-space/

TheGamer
The Elder Scrolls 6 Needs To Be Completely Different After Starfield

The Bethesda formula has long overstayed its welcome, and Shattered Space proves The Elder Scrolls 6 needs to shake things up.

eager remnant
#

I disagree with about 90% of the points being made in that article. One thing I agree with, though, is that ES6 needs fewer loading screens. I think consoles are powerful enough these days that loading screens are (mostly) not necessary anymore.

pale walrus
#

In terms of the expressiveness of NPCs - that's a solvable problem. It was quite poor in both ES3 and 4 (for some reason I found ES4's NPCs with their awkward movements and bland, round faces to be particularly irritating.) I think it improved in ES5 - the faces were more interesting. I don't think you have to capture real humans and reproduce their gestures and facial expressions in SW (some games have done this.) But if you can add angles, wrinkles and such details to faces (which Skyrim did) and then do some very basic things - change eye expressions with some subtlety based on conversation, change head angles, body postures and such - you can make the NPCs much more lifelike.

#

The article stated that Steam reviews for Shattered Space were generally unfavorable. Just looked over a bunch of them - ouch. Maybe they should take their time for the next DLC - give it a full year of development. Also, maybe it's better if BGS doesn't release ES6 in 2026, but takes a few extra years.

glass marlin
#

I'm hoping ES6 doesn't come with another settlement construction mechanic like in Fallout 4 and Starfield. That's one of the many jarring things I don't like seeing lately.

dull flame
#

I like the idea of it. I don’t like how it’s implemented or the mechanics of it. Fallout 4 consistently had me pissed off at wall placement that always seemed to float in the air regardless of PoV so I ended up just throwing out a few sleeping bags, tato plants and a couple turrets and leave them to their fate. I really hope that if they do add settlements in ES6 that they completely revamp the system.

The original Sims had a great building mechanic. 25 years ago

pale walrus
#

Maybe they'll provide both. In Skyrim you could build your own 'manor' out in the wilderness, and you could also take over a home/apartment/'condo' in a city. That wasn't a bad combination. The city dwellings provided no income potential, but the manors did. However, the manors were subject to being raided and partially despoiled. In FO4, I fortified all my settlements, but for at least one of them raiders would spawn inside the fortification (which was phenomenally irritating.) Also, the attacks on settlements were too frequent and thus disruptive to my adventuring/exploring. I haven't played SF and thus cannot comment intelligently.

#

Perhaps a combo of FO4's and Skyrim's best settlement features would do.

#

At the very least, I'd like ES6 to let me take over a fortress (abandoned or controlled by bad guys/monsters), repair it, staff it, set up income-producing structures, and turn it into a nice, safe settlement.

gusty pine
#

Walls for settlements in FO4 were useless as the raiders would teleport right in.

eager remnant
# glass marlin I'm hoping ES6 doesn't come with another settlement construction mechanic like i...

And I hope it does. I think Fallout's settlement building system is the most interesting thing about Fallout 4 (and is what makes Fallout 4 more interesting to me than either Fallout 3 or Fallout: New Vegas). But, like I said earlier, I'd like to see something like Bloodmoon's single-location "build up raven rock' approach combined with the flexibility of Fallout 4's settlement building mechanics.

dull flame
nimble pond
# pale walrus The article stated that Steam reviews for Shattered Space were generally unfavor...

Over time, I've come to just completely ignoring critic reviews in this age.. be it youtube, steam, or whatever. Rather than focusing on actually valid points, they now instead just grab out for anything they can muster up to generate hate popularity rather than actually writing intellectual debate. Not because I disagree with or don't like what I read, but because they are more often than not, completely full of crap. 👎

feral viper
#

I sometimes wonder if video game reviews these days even LIKE video games.

#

As for that article... I agree with a lot of what they say to is a problem. But not necessarily with their conclusions.

pulsar root
#

What GIn said for the most part.

livid ingot
#

Sorry, wandering off topic -

gloomy anchor
#

Please keep on the topic of elder scrolls.

feral viper
#

Right, well. Context aside, recent results have reinforced my stance that 2 provinces would be a mistake. Bethesda needs to double down on refining a single culture, and not spreading it's self so thin that everyone ends up being cardboard cutouts, in order to make the world feel real and relatable.

At the same time, a serious, concerted look at mechanics and how they interact is needed. 'It would be cool if A' isn't good enough.

#

There's a lot of mechanical value in many experiments post-Skyrim that could be used in TES6, but some deeper thought needs to be put into them beyond their own existence.

#

Settlement building and management, Dialogue Interaction, Persuasion, crafting variability and mods, etc.

It's all valuable, but needs some serious refinement.

#

Even Shipbuilding could be repurposed to Keep or Structure Building.

Though... They really need to fix the door problem first.

pulsar root
#

One province or whatever is fine in all honesty. Don't need more then one.

feral viper
#

Agreed, but a great many people don't think so.

pale walrus
#

Northern HF is going to be intriguing, particularly because looking across the Bjoulsae river or the Iliac Bay, you'll be able to see the southern reaches of HR without being able to cross over to them. This may sound weird, but I bet I'll spend some time just looking at that horizon and wondering. Also, Balfiera is going to attract a lot of attention from me, whether or not we can actually go to it.

#

Eastern HF will also be very attractive to me from north to south, looking into Skyrim and Cyrodiil. There's something about frontiers and distant horizons which I've always found hypnotic and alluring.

harsh plinth
#

Has anyone noticed a glitch with the atronach stone and atronach alteration perk that causes Magica to be restored with physical attacks and not magic attacks?

#

Never mind

scenic spade
feral viper
#

I do not generally assume capability when it hasn't been demonstrated. Doing so is setting yourself up for disappointment, and them up for failure.

You first need to have something demonstrated to use as a grounding for expectations. Despite the old saying, it doesn't matter how many monkeys on how many typewriters, nor how much time, they will never write Shakespeare unless you have demonstrated they can write a whole coherent sentence.

And for the last 20 years, Bethesda (or really anyone in the AAA scene, highlighting how money doesn't actually solve problems and in fact tends to actually cause more) has not given me a reason to think they can.

As such, the shouldn't be trying to go bigger. They shouldn't be trying to do more. They should focus in, really work on and develop quality rather than quantity.

#

Size is irrelevant. At its SMALLEST, Hammerfell is larger than every hand crafted map Bethesda has made in the last 25 years combined. Just shift the scale closer to Truescale if you want a larger world space.

#

But more than one Province means more than one culture. More than one history. More than one identity and style and theme.

And that, by definition, means less time and effort and resources spent fleshing those things out.

#

If you have 1000 man hours to spend, dividing it between two Provinces means at BEST 500 hours on each. Where focusing on one means 1000 hours on it.

The literal math of time investment is not in the favour of quality and Two Provinces.

#

That said, and I'll be frank here.

I couldn't give a rats ass about factions and questlines. The game could literally launch with zero questlines, and it wouldn't automatically be a deal killer for me.

I want a world worth exploring. A people worth understanding. A culture worth investigating. You don't NEED questlines to do that (though they can be an easy way to interact with that).

And that is where Bethesda has been failing the most. Giving us peoples and places to care about, to get invested, in to engage with.

There is a reason Morrowind is still so praised, two decades later. Because the Dunmer are a people worth our time.

And until Bethesda has demonstrated the ability to replicate that, I will not OVERESTIMATE them, and instead encourage more measured and reasonable standards

#

To that end, I stand by my position.

Single province. If you want a bigger scale simply lean more towards Truescale. Clinging to the scaled worldspace is setting yourself up for problems you don't need.

Spend the time actually developing the people and the culture of that province. Their traditions, their art, their beliefs and practices and the minutiae of their lives. Don't just make different cities different architectural styles and at like that makes them different.

A well developed culture should feel unique, feel distinct, and feel passionate. It shouldn't be a simple trope, like Skyrim, of a blank generic slate, like Oblivion.

pulsar root
#

Capable sure but again I don't think they need to change their big open world one province design. It works and people love it(Social media outrage era aside).

feral viper
#

I can even clearly lay out my minimum standard.

2 major cultures, each with 3 minor divisions, representing distinct identities that are more than a one-word trope or asset swap.

#

Hell, Morrowind gave us 3 distinct Ashlander Tribes, and they even USED the same art assets for all of them

tardy tiger
#

I think the Imperials have had issues since TES3 since there's stuff like Pelagiad being described as something out of High Rock and then there's a Nord house tileset. Even in TES3 Bethesda had no idea what to do with the Empire and Cyrodiil.

feral viper
#

It is of course worth noting that there is also a difference between acknowledging the development and depth of culture and lore, and LIKING it.

I absolutely despise ESO's development of the Bosmer. But it would be dishonest of me to say that they didn't develop Valenwood and the Bosmer.

So I don't have to like the end result, to give credit where credit is due.

#

Harry Potter got kids to read, after all. So even making the effort is worth something.

feral viper
#

Oh look. An Oblivion Zombie.

pale walrus
#

I don't know how the Bosmer were portrayed in ESO, but if it's the same as described in the uesp lore page, the Bosmer are scary, freaky people. Starry eyed cannibals who build houses out of skulls and bones...yeesh!

#

Note - the above scary pic was supposed to be part of my message. Sorry about the screwup.

feral viper
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But that's not a discussion for here. Or anywhere, given my current stance on the lore.

feral viper
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So, the expectations for what Bethesda does in the future, should be based on the examples they, themselves, have provided

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On the flip side, Fallout 76 is immensely superior today to what it was at launch.

So there's a bit of hope there.

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But given 30 years of games, it's pretty safe to assume that TES6 will have a turbulent launch.

pulsar root
#

Its "not enough" because people like to be loud. I'm sure if I said this elsewhere I'd get accused of thinking the game was perfect but this is getting off topic. I just don't believe ES6 is in trouble. Text doesn't convey how calm I am either 😦

eager remnant
#

Fans have been predicting the downfall of Bethesda ever since Morrowind, when Daggerfall fans claimed that Bethesda was no longer making good games. I tuned that white noise out a long time ago. Myself, I am looking forward to TES VI. I'm pretty sure I will enjoy it.

pale walrus
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We've talked a lot about open world games, large maps and lots of content. The key to all that is not only granting the player the ability to explore (and not be constrained by a forced linear progression thru the game) but to make that exploration rewarding and fruitful. That last part is probably the hardest to do - it's been quite rare that I've played a game which encourages and rewards the player for exploring, and does so in a balanced way (not too easy or frequent, not too difficult and overall worth the time investment.) BGS has done the best job of all the titles and series I've played. Can anyone think of another title or series that genuinely compares on this front?

feral viper
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In RPGs? No. In Procedurally Generated Survival Games? Many.

pale walrus
#

Interesting. Survival games is not a genre with which I have any familiarity.

eager remnant
#

I played a bit of Enshrouded in early access this summer. My early impression was that it was the game that most reminded me of BGS-style exploration.

pale walrus
#

Just looked it up. Interesting, but definitely not simple. Are you still playing it?

eager remnant
feral viper
#

Yeah, Enshrouded has been on my list for awhile.

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But exploration, for me anyway, is about finding things that impress or engage. And for the most part, RPGs don't do that.

RPGs are typically about going to a place to complete a task, and that's about it. There's usually very little drive to go out and just... See what's over there

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For survival games, especially Procedurally Generated ones, my exploration drive is based mostly in seeing what cool landforms, caves, and locations are out there in the world.

Resources are easy enough to come by, so the emphasis is on the place. Kinda like hiking and coming across a cool glade, or rock formation.

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That isn't something you get in hand crafted games very often. And it's something that's never come up in a Bethesda game with procedural generation.

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That said, Bethesda's worlds do tend to be filled with enough superfluous locations, landmarks, and stuff that you can get something similar.

Skyrim and Fallout 4 are particularly great examples of this. With unmarked POIs scattered around the map, and little details wedged into corners of locations that tell stories or encourage you to poke around.

spare anchor
#

As a continued reminder: This channel is for discussion of The Elder Scrolls, not other games, not general Bethesda. Please follow the #rules when posting.

pale walrus
#

I remember being in the center-west of the province, moving thru a wide open and empty area. I knew that if I angled towards the left, I'd reach a road. But in the distance and a bit to the right, I saw a squat mountain of sorts. So I began moving forward, watching and listening. At a certain point, I noticed that the squat mountain had something in it - what very vaguely looked like a structure. There was also a very faint scintillating glow that was shining and receding periodically. I stopped cold and looked all around me, listening carefully. Then I began to approach that area very, very cautiously, stopping along the way, sometimes proceeding stealthily. As I got closer, I saw a broad stairway leading to a temple or crypt of some sort, clearly guarded by some sort of spirit - but it hadn't seen me yet.

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This is what I mean by exploring with a good balance of rewards. Skyrim did that for me quite often.

frozen notch
#

I wonder if "The Jerall Mountains" track from Skyrim will be rearranged for TES VI. It appeared it Morrowind under a name "Rise to Reality" and in Oblivion as "Through the Valleys". Basically all Jeremy Soule games. I believe it's the only reoccurring track in mainline TES games

feral viper
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Probably. Rehashing old music with minimal tonal relevance seems to be a general trend.

If they're going to do that though, at least go full Murder Drones on it.

feral viper
pale walrus
#

I heard Jeremy Soule isn't going to be the composer for ES6 music. Why not? He did a rather splendid job in the last 3 ES games.

eager remnant
pale walrus
#

OK, just googled it. I have now formed a very strong opinion on this. I will not reveal it, however. I would ask this: does anyone know who will be writing the score for ES6? Has this been announced? If yes, I'd be curious to hear any music this person has composed.

livid ingot
# pale walrus OK, just googled it. I have now formed a very strong opinion on this. I will not...

Nobody has any clue.
If you want a guess, Inon Zur was the composer for Starfield, the Fallout series, and The Elder Scrolls: Blades. It would not be a complete surprise if he composes for TES: VI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inon_Zur

Inon Zur

Inon Zur (Hebrew: ינון צור, [jiˈnon ˈt͡sur]) is an Israeli-American composer of soundtracks for film, television, and video games. He has composed soundtracks for over 80 video games, which include Dragon Age, EverQuest, Fallout, Prince of Persia, Star Trek, the Syberia series, and Starfield. He has received multiple nominations, including three...

raven current
#

Inon Zur's definitely on the table

pale walrus
#

Listening on YT now....wow, did not know he did FO3 and 4. SF main theme sounds very similar. He's a very different composer than Soule. Well, if he gets the job, let's see what he can do.

feral viper
#

Inon Zur's fine, but I have found his work for Bethesda has been rather... Same-y. He's got some amazing stuff in the past, though (his Prince of Persia stuff was phenomenal) so I suspect this is more on the directing side, and less on his actual skill as a composer.

Especially given the fact I say the same about Soule. Morrowind was the only really great sound track he did for TES.

But I think that's a symptom of the larger problem with TES' music. It's pretty derivative of Morrowind, as if it's trying to cling to that height. And the result isn't that good. I still listen to Morrowind's soundtrack, but I literally turn off the music in Skyrim and Oblivion (whenever I work up the patience to play the game).

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With such amazing soundtracks lately, Doom and Darktide and Baldur's Gate III and even Indie games like Hollow Knight and Stardew Valley... TES's various tracks don't even make it into my top 10 of the last 20 years anymore.

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And I can identify the problem too.

Oblivion, Skyrim and ESO's compositions are too based on Morrowind's composition. They aren't based in the world, the region, or the narratives of the games they are set for. Their primary grounding is in Music for another Game, not in the Game its self.

livid ingot
#

The series theme though I think should stay with a new iteration

feral viper
#

Yeah. Having a new theme based on the iconic isn't a problem.

Having an entire soundtrack based on the iconic gets to feel quite derivative and uninteresting.

But it's also more complex than that. Overuse of particular cords or stings can also feel very boring and contrived. Starfield suffers from this, with every sodding discovery playing the same base verse.

On the flip side, radical remixes of a base sting can allow for a commonality between tracks and significant grounding. Murder Drones is a prime example of this.

So it doesn't have to be one way or the other, and the balancing act is complex.

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I just want TES6's soundtrack to be something I don't immediately turn off.

dim reef
#

Does anyone know why I can't preview the stuff that comes in the Haunted Housewares Furnishing Pack... I mean I don't want to buy it if I can't see what is in it and what it looks like in game.

spare anchor
feral viper
#

From a musical stand point... And I say this as a listener not a composer...

TES6 should have it's musical style defined FIRST. Independent of anything that's come before. Don't listen to the old tracks, don't use their sheets, nothing.

Let the world, tone, and narrative inspire the sound.

Then, when that is done, go back and do the Title Piece. Taking the independently defined sound for TES6, and remixing the classic Morrowind theme with it in mind.

pale walrus
#

What do you guys think of the idea of having the ES6 soundtrack composed by.....David Allan Coe? (j/k)

feral viper
#

I humoured that by looking him up. Saw the cowboy hat and gagged.

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Though, non-conventional sources are always an option. Celldweller and the lead from Trivium have done a new soundtrack for Legacy of Kain: The Dead Shall Rise.

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It would be kinda neat to get, like, a middle-eastern and metal blend track for Hammerfell. Like Blind Guardian's Wheel of Time.

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It'd be awesome to walk into Orsinium and have something from The Hu play.

pale walrus
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OK, a more serious idea than David Allan Coe: remember the soundtrack for "Lawrence of Arabia"? Think of the scope and power of its theme. THAT would be a grand inspiration for whoever is chosen to compose the score.

feral viper
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Agreed. And I think using that as a sort of direction would be a great idea. But redoing classic themes in that style should be the absolutely last thing done.

The older music shouldn't be directing the new.

pale walrus
pale walrus
feral viper
#

Somewhat ironically, despite my love for Nerevar Rising, it's not even my favourite Theme for TES.

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That would be the single greatest, most atmospheric theme in the franchise's 30 year history...

The Battlespire Theme.

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Now that I think about it... Probably part of why I love Ozar Midrashim so much too... Same vibe...

pulsar root
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I never umm turn the music off in a game... just not something I do. There are well times the music just isn't doing it for me. But again matter of taste.

potent wharf
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They need to get Jack Wall

frozen notch
livid ingot
frozen notch
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it was made by Frédéric Tardif. Also Lead Audio Designer at BGS. I think he will take a role of Lead Audio Designer after Mark Lampert left

livid ingot
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So I didn't mention it

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I'd say it's also possible that TES:O's composer(s) could also be tapped for TES: VI

dim reef
feral viper
# pulsar root I never umm turn the music off in a game... just not something I do. There are w...

It really depends on the game for me.

For Bethesda, I almost always do. Fallout and Starfield have the benefit of the Radio, though all their music options are terrible, so even that gets replaced...

But TES just has its native sound track and music. And that is mostly irrelevant to immersion breaking for me, so off it goes. Nothing's worse than walking through the woods, and battle music (that doesn't add anything to the tension or pacing if a fight) starts up, telling you it's time to look around for an attacker.

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Now, Darktide, or Doom? That music never goes off. It's contribution to the moment to moment atmosphere is invaluable.

pale walrus
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I'm listening right now on YT to a vid with the main themes for ES 3, 4 and 5: ' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMao-aSeO2w ' Morrowind is classic and wonderful, though a bit melancholy. Oblivion's is.....well, it gives me gas. Skyrim's is very dramatic - Wagnerian, even. Impressive. Because of its energy and even fury, it's my favorite. That's going to be quite difficult to top in ES6.

feral viper
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It's kinda funny, I actually am much more inclined to leave music on for...shall we say, ancient games, than I am for anything modern.

nimble pond
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For me it's different. I typically like to disable the music and turn up the atmosphere. My footsteps, the birds, the wolves, wind, etc. When I'm immersing myself in the world, it just feels weird suddenly hearing orchestra music going off in my head in the woods in the middle of nowhere and takes me out out the world.

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But as for the music itself, it was beautifully done.

eager remnant
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When it comes to game music my biggest problem is with battle music. I hate battle music with a purple passion. Few things in games annoy me as much as having a pleasant music track abruptly cancelled in the middle of a melody and replaced by bombastic, obnoxiously loud battle music. It is one of the first things I mod out of any Elder Scrolls game.

raven current
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As much as the tracks themselves can be great, big mood

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It's the same in movies, it so rarely actually helps anything and often detracts for me.

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It's a fight, not a dance.

primal olive
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snow elves deserve more content I love them too much

livid ingot
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Call me crazy, but I think our next TES soundtrack should draw some sounds, at least for some tracks, from the desert blues genre

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At least if it's in Hammerfell

primal olive
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i hope they do decent for Hammerfell if that's the location

livid ingot
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I hope they do too. It has such incredible potential

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Of course I'd rather a non-human province, but fan consensus suggests Hammerfell or the Illiac Bay

primal olive
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I want more playable races
honestly I hope they don't give us the doo doo skill system from Skyrim or Starfield, please don't be a basic sw/sh 2h bow or magics lol

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like I want spears !!! I looove pole arms

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I hope redguards get a spirit sword thingy

pale walrus
primal olive
pale walrus
pale walrus
livid ingot
primal olive
feral viper
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We are unlikely to see more of them in the mainline games for some time. Unless we go back to Skyrim.

Seeing something if them in ESO is more likely, though still slim.

pale walrus
feral viper
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You must not spend much time in the Lore community. Most are of the opinion that they got what was coming to them.

You know, despite the whole Sarthaal thing not making a lick of sense.

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The blatant colonial apologisim of the Night of Tears not withstanding, we are unlikely to learn much more about the Falmer due to their geographic distribution.

The only place that COULD offer more information, is north-east Highrock

pulsar root
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Only thing about them is being called Snow elves sounds lame. I wouldn't say they "Got it coming to them"

pale walrus
# feral viper You must not spend much time in the Lore community. Most are of the opinion that...

Well that's just it - the Saarthal story we got sounds way too shallow. For instance: why was the Eye of Magnus there? The excuse that Magnus kinda just left it there by accident is ridiculous. Either the Nords knew it was there and established Sarthaal in that location deliberately or they brought it there. In both cases, it suggests that the story is much deeper than we have been led to believe. Also, the city was built in the Merethic - when Dragons and Dragon Priests still ruled the Nords. One would think they both would have had a keen interest in the Eye, and any attempts by the Snow Elves to take it would have been quite ferociously resisted - likely so much so that the Snow Elf attack on Saarthal should have failed. We are definitely not hearing the full story.

pale walrus
feral viper
feral viper
#

Whatever the case is the Night of Tears is a poorly written mess that the lore community takes at face value. Like Father of the Niben.

Both of which are symptomatic of wider issues that I'm not going to get into because it'll devolve into another rant.

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Point is, the Falmer and their geographic distribution makes it unlikely that we will see more information about them any time soon. Unless we go back to Skyrim for a DLC.

pale walrus
feral viper
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It's unfortunate, because they're way more interesting than the Nords or Bretons. But it's the unfortunate situation we're in

pulsar root
feral viper
#

It's also not what Imperialism is, but that's a whole other tangent...

pale walrus
feral viper
#

That's colonialism.

Colonialism is generally agreed to be the deliberate displacement or eradication of native peoples for the purposes of settlement by an outside population.

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Imperialism is more the establishment of power relations between populations or regions with a disproportionate authority and economic priority resting with the designated 'homeland' at the expense of the peripheral.

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Rather crudely, anyway

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It's worth noting that, despite the modern association of Colonialism with the European Colonisation of the Americas, it's a far more general and common historical practice. The earliest known example I can think of was Sargon's conquest of Sumerian and the formation of the Akkadian Empire, where killed or displaced many of the landowners of the Sumerian City States and replaced them with his own loyalists from Akkad, outlawed the Sumerian language, and worked to displace the native population.

Had his empire not relatively quickly fallen apart after his death, he may have succeeded...

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But ultimately, what the Nords did in Skyrim was textbook colonialism.

pulsar root
#

🤓

scenic spade
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Colonialism is great as long as the conquered people are not persecuted. Turn the world into your empire and give it a golden age of prosperity with zero slavery and just laws.

That is colonialism for you.

eager remnant
pale walrus
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Fair enough. Let's look at colonialism from the perspective of Tamriel's history.

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I think from the above discussion we can fairly conclude that the Nords implemented a colonial policy with respect to Skyrim. The same I think could be said of the Redguard and Hammerfell. One could say from this that the Nords and Redguards are the most aggressive tribes on the continent. The Dwemer were, I think, the complete opposite, in that the land they occupied was minimal. They devoted their efforts to creating living, working, farming and manufacturing spaces underground, avoiding surface territorial disputes (though as far as I know, the Nords still picked a fight with them.) I'd also say that the Dunmer are not colonialists. Yes, they got into a fight with the Dwemer, but the territorial conflict was avoided for quite a long time until they had something they both wanted to fight over - Lorkhan's heart. The Bretons, Bosmer, Argonians and Khajiit are not colonialists either (though the Bosmer have had their aggressive periods.) This leaves the Altmer, who strictly speaking aren't colonialists, but I thik could be fairly described as Imperialists (but a 'mild' version of such, I think.)

wide garnet
#

What I want to know is, if Skyrim is supposed to be the Nordic Homeland, why did they leave for Atmora in the first place?

noble verge
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I believe there's a book in ESO suggesting the Falmer may have cast a spell to freeze Atmora in retribution for the Nords wiping them out.

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Although that's not why the earlier Nord settlers came to Skyrim.

pulsar root
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Must be one powerful spell if it did that much. I would of called it a ritual, or some daedra shennigans to explain it(Not bashing you)

noble verge
raven current
#

They had elves to fight.

wide garnet
raven current
#

It was originally Altmora. It was an elven kingdom.

pale walrus
# wide garnet What I want to know is, if Skyrim is supposed to be the Nordic Homeland, why did...

I had the same question pop into my head earlier this year. The whole origin story of Nords and Men in general is weird - Kyne exhales on the top of the Throat of the World, and humans magically appear. They then descend from the mountain and go to the shores of the Pale, build boats, sail them across the Sea of Ghosts and settle in Atmora, which already has Aldmer in it. What??? It's just bizarre.

raven current
#

We're talking about Dawn Era stuff, or not long into Convention otherwise

#

Prehistory's muddy at best of times, let alone when then dealing with metaphysics like TES's

pale walrus
raven current
#

No, it was freezing somewhat and there was civil war but it wasn't an iceberg yet

#

unless I'm misreading you

#

It's possible the Falmer specifically accelerated it

pale walrus
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I'm saying what you're saying, Serithi. It wasn't fully glaciated yet, but the weather was getting worse. I'm guessing the civil war was triggered by nords in atmora competing for the shrinking amount of arable land.

wide garnet
#

Tallion, from Middle-Earth: Shadow of Mordor series: Why do we chase these dreams?! They offer no answers, only more questions!!!

noble verge
raven current
#

Imperial tradition*

#

All life began in Tamriel, whatever form it might've had in the beginning. Some of that life never left.

noble verge
#

The point I meant to make was that there were many waves of Atmorans settling Tamriel, right up until Atmora became uninhabitable.

#

Back on the old forums, I recall a post from Kirkbride mentioning that while it's widely believed in-universe, the Imperials did not originate in Atmora.

raven current
#

There's been multiple texts official and otherwise poking holes in the "Out Of Atmora" theory

#

Of course nothing definitively concrete. But it's clear that the Typical Narratives™️ are not that accurate. They're stuff from millennia after the fact.

pale walrus
#

The Nords themselves are confused about their origins, though they don't seem to care much about it. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Nord

Lore:Nord

Nords (also known as Northmen, or called Bron singular in the Language of Dragons) are the Children of the Sky, a race of tall and fair-haired humans from Skyrim who are known for their incredible resistance to cold and magical frost. They are fierce, strong and enthusiastic warriors, and many become renowned warriors, soldiers and mercenaries a...

feral viper
# noble verge Back on the old forums, I recall a post from Kirkbride mentioning that while it'...

If memory serves, it was a Hasphat Antabolis (sp) statement that the Out of Atmora theory had long since been discarded by serious scholars.

However... It's important to also recognise that those scholars, mostly Imperial, have a vested interest in distinguishing their own historical and cultural legitimacy by playing up their own theoretical origin.

We still have people today who reject the Out of Africa theory for ideological reasons, regardless of what the evidence says.

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So, it's entirely possible that ALL Manish races are descended from various migrations, either from Atmora or Yokuda, at different points. Regardless of what the ideologically motivated scholarship of the current period says.

#

The scholarship traditions of Tamriel are, at best, equivalent to the mid 17th century afterall.

Which is to say, absolutely rubbish.

hidden herald
#

Nedes my guess are native to Tamriel, since Kothringi might go back to the Dawn Era

noble verge
# feral viper The scholarship traditions of Tamriel are, at best, equivalent to the mid 17th c...

One of the reasons I always loved pieces of lore from a Daedric or Oblivion standpoint was because they view things from a different lens, one untouched by the inaccuracies and flaws in human and elf scholarship.

Sure, the Daedra have some very strong biases themselves, but being immortal, they can potentially have borne witness to events from thousands of years ago. I'd guess that it is probably for these reasons that when the College of Whispers wanted answers on where the dragons came from, they summoned and interviewed/interrogated Daedra.

pale walrus
#

The Daedra always seem to be 'signed up' to serve a particular Daedric Prince. But it could be very interesting to run into a group of Daedra who decided to go 'Ronin' and simply build something for themselves - either on some pocket plane in Oblivion or, even better, somewhere in Tamriel. Perhaps we could deal with this particular group in ways other than just fighting them. It's something I think might be worth exploring.

solar gust
#

Gameranx made a video suggesting Elder Scrolls 6 using UE:5?

#

I assume this is false yeah?

feral viper
#

It is highly unlikely Bethesda will abandon the Creation Engine.

pulsar root
#

Yeah, they arent' doing that.

eager remnant
solar gust
eager remnant
solar gust
nimble pond
#

Was wondering if we'd get a province-on-province war, between High Rock and Hammerfell, taking place in the bay, orchestrated by the Thalmor.

pale walrus
nimble pond
#

Yea, civil wars and on top of that a province-on-province bay assault. Orchestrated by none other than the Thalmor ofc..

#

I think the crowns and forebears did fight the thalmor to a standstill. Ofc that was only a portion of thalmor forces and even then, and it took a bit to do so as thalmor were still managing to gain ground up until the standstill.

tardy tiger
nimble pond
#

If we get the option to fast-travel by air, as some have offered as an idea, I'd kinda like to have the option to skydive down. I'd like the view of the land coming down. I mean we already got noclip 😁 Parakhajiit 😳

pulsar root
#

I think any civil war is out of the cards(And personally I don't think we need another but another province).

raven current
#

I mean the Crown/Forebear rivalry is right there for the Thalmor to stir up

#

It's nominally over, but you don't just heal millennia-old wounds overnight.

pulsar root
#

No but it can be just tension and not another civil war, I don't think that would be appreciated(Next ES game has another civil war? Not the best idea).

pale walrus
noble verge
#

I figure if there's a province war in that region, it'd be between Hammerfell and Orsinium.

#

With Hammerfell weakened from the Great War and no longer part of the Empire, it might be an ideal time for the Orcs to re-negotiate their borders.

primal olive
#

Stupid question, when did the bretons come to be, and when did the Snow Prince die

noble verge
#

The Snow Prince died during the Merethic Era, some time after Ysgramor and the Five Hundred Companions invaded Skyrim.

#

The Bretons were the result of generations upon generations of the Direnni interbreeding with Nedes. They came into prominence as a major power in High Rock in the First Era.

primal olive
noble verge
#

Potentially. There's an Altmer in Bloodmoon that believes himself to be descended from the Snow Elves, so it's not unprecedented.

primal olive
#

that leads to my other theory

#

In TES V we see a Falmer language wall, using ayleidoon we can help translate it. this leads me to think it's possible that Falmer and Ayleids were from the same group of Aldmer that left Aldmeris, and split off possibly due to religious differences

#

honestly idk lol but it's fun to theorize

#

Another stupid one: Are there cases of Bretons following the Altmer pantheon? it feels highly possible, I know the druids of high isle do with yffre

noble verge
#

Yes. Varieties of Faith shows that there's significant overlap between Breton and Altmer pantheons, and unlike the other mannish races, Bretons worship Phynaster and Magnus, who are otherwise exclusive to the Altmer pantheon.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith...

Lore:Varieties of Faith...

Note: A similar but not identical version of this book appeared in Elder Scrolls Online. For that version, see Varieties of Faith in Tamriel. "Mikhael Karkuxor" is a pseudonym for the original's real-life author, former developer Michael Kirkbride. An earlier draft of the text, named 'Pantheons of Tamriel', contains several differences. It was h...

nimble pond
tardy tiger
spring sandal
#

when is elder scrolls 6

pulsar root
#

Eventually

scenic spade
#

It's actually funny seeing people from the other side of that question. lmao

feral viper
#

Some time between Thursday, and the Heat Death of the Universe.

feral viper
# noble verge The Bretons were the result of generations upon generations of the Direnni inter...

Maybe. The timeline is nothing if not confused on that matter.

There appear to have been Altmeri present in Highrock before the Direnni took over. The Direnni only really ruled the area for a few centuries.

It's also unclear if the Humans they interbred with were native Needs, displaced and enslaved Atmorans following the Night of Tears, both, or some other group entirely.

All of which once again plays into the problem of Scholarship in Tamriel having the academic standards of the History Channel

#

Anyway, having had time to sink into Shattered Space, I think I'm now more comfortable talking about things in it that could be useful for TES.

Decorating. I'm surprised it took as long as it did, but having Decorate functions for owned spaces, even within the prefab structure of ships, basically throws open the door for housing decorations in TES. It still needs the ability to take clutter items and place them through the decoration system, but it's a huge step forward. Imagine actually being able to decorate a Guild Hall when you become Guildmaster.

Differential Gravity Areas. Previously, it had basically been Gravity On, of Gravity Off. Starfield adds spheres of microgravity and, while it does absolutely nothing remotely interesting with them, gives me hope for more interesting Levitation mechanics.

And really... That's probably it.

violet lily
#

I would love to see levitation mechanics make a comeback

#

proper ones, not the little tubes we got in the Dragonborn DLC

feral viper
#

Yeah, though I'm not keen on Morrowind's approach to Levitation. It was rather... Bare bones.

feral viper
#

Levitation is one of those (many) things that I think is a great concept, but gets terribly executed in games.

And Starfield's gravity mechanics, I think, address most of my problems with it. They deal with inertia, object interactions, even areas of differential effect.

I think, with a few tweaks, you could do something actually really interesting with them. Instead of Morrowind's overly simplistic 'I go where I wanna'.

noble verge
feral viper
#

Yes. The dates for the Direnni Hegemony, the establishment through the Druids of Galen that Breton people were already extant when the Direnni took control, and the nebulous nature of the settlement of Highrock.

#

Simply put, there's no way the Direnni could have been behind it. At least not alone. The math just ain't mathing.

#

Now, the Direnni could have been ONE of the clans that settled the region, leading to their growing power and bringing the other clans under their independent control to form the Hegemony after several centuries, but a single clan of Altmer being the sole settlers and rulers of High Rock is frankly ludicrous, and clearly written by someone with no sense of scale

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Though, this is the same setting where they took the 300 Companions as literal, so what do I know.

noble verge
#

The Direnni Hegenony's formation was not the start of the Direnni's dominance of High Rock. They were the first and most successful of the Altmer factions to settle High Rock, by the time the Hegemony was formalized they had been the dominant power in High Rock since the Merethic.

feral viper
#

Point missed, but ultimately I don't actually care.

noble verge
#

But yes I made an error in saying that the Bretons were interbred with the Direnni specifically when there were other Altmer clans also in High Rock during that time.

feral viper
#

I really should stop the kneejerk reaction to making lore related comments, for a setting I no longer care to engage with.

Old habits and what not.

merry glacier
#

Ynow what grinds my gears? People spreading the falsities that TES6 will be procedural.

pulsar root
#

Don't let it get under your skin. Besides Bethesda isn't going use it in the same way Starfield does, for very obvious design purposes(Procedural stuff is still used just not nearly as much).

Handcrafted of one particular umm world space "fit" better then.. proceedural(Even if I personally think the response to it was....jarring)

eager remnant
#

I suspect Bethesda is using an approach similar to the one used in Oblivion, employing procedural generation to create a basic landscape, then tweaking the result by hand to accommodate roads, bridges, towns, ect.

feral viper
#

That said, that is OUR suspicion. We don't have any inside knowledge. It is entirely possible that they try to double down on the procedural generation for TES6.

We ultimately don't know. All we can really do is articulate whether or not we think it is a good idea.

feral viper
#

That said, I think there is sufficient reason to expect them to make extensive use of Procedural generation in activities. We've seen more and more use of Radiant Quests since Skyrim, and regardless of the name, those ARE Procedurally Generated activities.

merry glacier
feral viper
#

If he is saying it will be handcrafted like their past games, he's lying. Because not all of their games have had handcrafted maps. Oblivion being the clear standout in that regard, if we discount the '90s. If we count those, then 4 of their titles, almost half of their major releases, have used Procedural Generation.

And yes, an untrue generalisation you know is an untrue generalisation is a lie. On the more benign side of the scale of lies, yes, but still a lie.

#

Given Bethesda's aims for bigger games however, I do expect procedural generation to be used in some capacity. Even if hand pruning is done afterwards.

Not that ProcGen is inherently bad. It's just bad when done poorly. Which, 90% of the time, is the case, because few people want to put enough time into constructing a good ProcGen system.

#

Ultimately I don't think it particularly matters, because even their most recent hand-crafted space isn't that enthralling. But that's a whole other barely of dead fish.

pulsar root
#

I'm taking Todd's word for it. He's already stated SF was different then what we're used to ¯_(ツ)_/¯

feral viper
#

I take no marketing persons word for anything.

But that's also tangential, because being hand crafted doesn't mean quality either. Va'ruun Ka is arguably more barren than many of the procedurally Generated worlds in the base game.

Especially given that we're going to most likely be looking at Hammerfell, hand crafting a desert could actually make things LESS interesting.

#

One of the issues that handcrafting has, in dealing with natural environments, is it can often feel very manufactured. Because your brain WANTS to see and create patterns that, really, shouldn't necessarily be there

#

Especially in environments which SHOULD shift, and SHOULD change, such as dune deserts, hand crafting would also lead to either too much predictability, or unnaturally static environments.

#

Just like with Fallout 4s dialogue system, a negative reaction to poor use of tools does not mean those tools are bad. And reacting to that negativity to regressing to inferior practices does no one any good.

So I'll go one step further. Instead of saying they WILL, I will say they SHOULD use Procedural Generation in TES6.

Bethesda needs to stop abandoning ideas after one stumble, and actually take the time to refine it's tools and approaches.

Develop and expand Procedural Generation to make it a valuable tool in the toolbox. Don't rely exclusively on it, and don't toss it away. Actually PROGRESS and use the lessons to make something better.

#

Though, a major technical limitation in this regard is actually the Engine.

And I don't say this very often, but the Engine IS a problem here. Not an insurmountable one, but a problem.

And the problem, at its core, is the lack of voxels in terrain generation.

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No procedural generation is going to feel natural using the current engine and it's heightmap terrain. The inability to render volumetric features in terrain is a massive limitation that inherently means every 3 dimensional feature needs to be either a complete asset, or hand crafted from other assets.

This leads to problems like in Starfield, where there's maybe 5 different types of caves you can find scattered about, with very generic entrances placed through procedural generation.

If they want to actually move forward (and by move forward, I really mean Catch Up) with ProcGen, they NEED voxel terrain mapping.

merry glacier
feral viper
#

Incorrect. Daggerfall and Arena were mostly procedurally Generated. Morrowind was hand made. Oblivion's worldspace was procedurally Generated and then hand cultivated. Fallout 2, Skyrim, Fallout 4 and 76, were hand made, and Starfield was heavily Procedurally generated.

On the whole, it's probably more in line about 70% hand crafted. If by landmass though, it's less than 10% hand crafted.

#

But it's irrelevant, because Procedural Generation does not equal Bad. And Hand Crafted does not equal Good.

Good and Bad are entirely independent qualities based on the end product, NOT how it's made.

#

There is nothing wrong with Procedural Generation. And TES6 could be fantastic WITH ProcGen. IF the time and effort is out into making it's ProcGen system good (and if the engine actually uses voxels).

At the same time, TES6 could be fantastic with Hand Crafting. IF the time and effort is made to make that hand crafting deep, engaging and worth exploring.

pulsar root
feral viper
#

Of course, there is a point in scale where ProcGen will always out preform hand crafting, simply by merit of size. Even if they had decided to use 100% hand crafted environments in Starfield, but kept the same scale, the outcome WOULD HAVE BEEN WORSE.

So it depends on the size of the worldspace they are aiming for, and what the scale is.

Which it's self presents a whole topic of discussion and evaluation for TES6 that is independent of the Hand Crafting and ProcGen one.

#

But if they want to go 'bigger' with TES6, at leat some use of ProcGen is practically necessary.

How much, or how smart it's used, is to be determined.

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I'd even go so far as to state that the BEST exploration driven games (an activity that Bethesda prides it's self on) all use Procedural Generation.

So if TES6 wants to go back to the Exploration Basics, it NEEDS to use Procedural Generation in some capacity. It just needs to be GOOD ProcGen.

nimble pond
#

I think in illusion, we should get a spell that let's us transform into various creatures we come into contact with and gain their powers, be it wolf, troll, hawk, slaughterfish, falmer, giant, wisp, etc. This is a step up from having werewolf and vampire transformations, but more variety. Plus, you could virtually roleplay the game as any of those options if you wanted to, so it's like you're getting more than just the usual classic races you pick at the start of the game.

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Plus, idk, could we maybe get a player home up in the stars somewhere? Always wanted my own TES star to call home, even before the SF craze. If we get our own kingdom this game, maybe we'll get to design our own realm from the ground up in the TES after.

eager remnant
hidden herald
merry glacier
feral viper
merry glacier
feral viper
#

If 3/9 major releases have been extensively or almost entirely Procedural Generation, and 1 of the remaining releases made extensive use of ProcGen in the creation of its main world space, it is mathematically improbable that 90% of their games were hand crafted. Especially given the fact that the 3 ProcGen heavy titles make up 99% of the total game space across all their major releases.

So again, the math ain't mathin'.

You COULD play meaningless word games on what constitutes 'Old', only allowing the games you want to count to qualify, but doing so would be inherently disingenuous.

#

In fact, it would be accurate to state that TES in particular is overwhelmingly Procedural Generation heavy, with 3 of the 5 games in the franchise using it extensively.

#

4/5 if you want to get technical and include Radiant Quest Generation in that criteria (which you should, because beyond PR nonsense, Radiant AI IS ProcGen).

Which would leave Morrowind as the only game in the mainline series that didn't make extensive use of Procedural Generation.

raw grove
#

ProcGen creates filler -- nothing more and nothing less. Using ProcGen to create map terrain between important sites? Not a problem. Using ProcGen for important sites, or dialog, or quests? Simply dreadful. Radiant quests have been the least satisfying new element of recent games. Just because I love filet mignon doesn't mean I will love infinite baloney.

feral viper
#

And that's kinda my whole point. Using ProcGen for what it's good at should be encouraged. You don't discard a tool simply because you're using it wrong.

You learn to use it properly.

tardy tiger
#

Radiant quests work best for job quests. Like a mercenary faction asking you to deal with a dungeon sort of thing outside of the main story.

feral viper
#

Indeed. Though, similar to using ProcGen for world generation, you need to have the necessary systems and criteria in place to make it viable. And Bethesda lacks a lot of those.

For terrain generation, they again NEED to transition to voxel based terrain mapping. Heightmaps just don't cut it. The way their engine currently handles terrain would make it impossible to execute seamless movement from surface to subterranean environments, which is why we are stuck with those rather clunky 'doors' into caves.

Especially if you're looking at Hammerfell, which would almost by necessity draw inspiration from parts of the world where Cave Dwellings are incredibly common (Petra, Derinkuyu, the myriad of limestone and sandstone caves across Egypt, etc) the need to be able to handle these sorts of landforms necessitates voxels.

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At the same time, basic gameplay systems need to be in place to facilitate more varied and dynamic activities and interactions.

For instance, we STILL don't actually have an integrated way for the game to track unconscious enemies. Both Skyrim and Starfield make extensive use of Bounties, but those only amount to murder contracts because there is zero baseline system to deal with an unconscious entity. Unless the specific wuest specifically scripts for it, the game tracks these entities as Dead.

This fundamental oversight is what led to the Freestar Ranger questline being arguably the worst one Bethesda has ever made, unintentionally turning an at least competent Cowboy Cop story into Institutionalised Police Brutality.

If these Radiant Quests are going to continue into TES6, more fundamental systems need to be developed that allow for more diverse outcomes, which make these activities more than just 'Go murder X'.

#

Radiant Quests are a great idea. But you can't leave them as just a contract hit on everything, because your basic gameplay isn't capable of expressing anything outside of 'Stab it until it stops moving'.

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The benefits of a basic 'Unconscious' functionality goes beyond bounties too. It allows for attempts at non-fatal solutions (knocking someone out is still violence, so Pacifist Runs are a lie). It allows for capture and domestication activities. It allows for exploration of darker activities like the Slave Trade (though that may be a little too close to home for Hammerfell. Future considerations though).

And that's really sort of the point. The basic systems which make ProcGen viable, ALSO benefit other aspects of the games. So like anything, it's a gradual progression. So long as you don't just give up after a stumble because people don't actually understand what they're looking at.

So, work on the basic ProcGen systems, and everything else will benefit too.

nimble pond
#

Can we get the ability to resurrect permanently? Like I often wondered what an undead version of Lydia would be like as one of my companions (of course you can always end the resurrection, there just wouldn't be a time limit after you resurrect someone, as usual).

feral viper
#

Oh yeah, Necromancy needs a LOT of work.

Just start with Fallout 4s Mechanist stuff and build from there. Except instead of robots, it's corpses.

nimble pond
#

That's taking it a step up. Dr. Frankenstein

feral viper
#

It's not like they're using those body parts anymore.

noble verge
#

Divinity 2 Ego Draconis (the Divinity 2 nobody remembers) had something like that- you could mix-and-match body parts for an undead creature. Hardly any real customization though, if I recall the body parts just affected stats.

feral viper
#

Yeah, Kenshi is probably the best example of it having visual differences, but it's also really a totally different sort of system.

Fallout 4s Automatron DLC already has basically what you'd need. Just swap out the robot parts of meat parts, and you're ready to go.

#

But that heavily plays into the superficiality of Magic in TES as a system. No one really DOES anything with it, and even the player's engagement with it is just using it to basically throw scripted effects at enemies like they were shooting Missiles in Doom.

Skyrim got a little better, with variable casting behaviours and direct environmental interactions with its magic, but it's spell list was so emaciated that it was never able to really capitalise on that mechanical improvement.

bleak frigate
#

HELLO guys I tried to create a new race on SKYRIM IF customized (MOD) I go into the game I open SHOWRACEMENU I select my race that I created the game crashes...help I'm going crazy I don't understand where the problem can be solved

spare anchor
sly inlet
#

Bethesda Twitter or a Tumblr should do Elder Scrolls character amas ngl

feral viper
#

When freedom burns
The final solution
Dreams fade away
And all hope turns to dust.

#

I'm struck by the fact that a single song has emotional gravitas than all of TES. And I think that is a problem

eager remnant
#

I think the Elder Scrolls series, overall, has plenty of emotional gravitas. More than most games I can think of.

#

I would say that even one of my least favorite games in the series, Oblivion, has emotional gravitas with the sacrifice of Martin.

nimble pond
#

Idk what's so hopeful bout dust, but each to their own I guess

scenic spade
noble verge
#

It floored me when ||the entire explorable area up to that point was wiped out||

feral viper
# eager remnant I would say that even one of my least favorite games in the series, Oblivion, ha...

True, I suppose it depends on how attached one is to a character or characters.

Personally, I have never liked Martin. I found him bland and unengaging, and his contribution to the plot didn't really do much to make me value him. This lead to his sacrifice feeling like an all-to-predictable plot device rather than the loss of an actual companion.

But you are right. Emotional gravitas isn not a particularly common thing in gaming, though many do try. Maybe it's a limitation of the medium.

scenic spade
#

We are video gamers. Even better, video game players of roleplaying video games. We are consumers of the most powerful sector of the entertainment industry. Don't sell ourselves short, young man.

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(Edited. Read again.)

scenic spade
#

Time to resume my Socrates character. lol

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An Imperial who hoards books and makes an honest living fighting things if they are unreasonable enough to have a quality conversation first.

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It's my first time rolling a character who has Speech of all things as one of his primary skills. This has got to be the simplest build I've ever done, save for the fact that he'll eventually get into Conjuration magic.

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Socrates spoke to a "daemon" as a friend. Either for real.or he was a lunatic. My Skyrim Socrates would, in turn, commune with daedra.

scenic spade
#

Everyone, please hang out here. Other places in discord are not worth your time. Please respond to my post.

wide garnet
#

@scenic spade just what are you trying to do?

scenic spade
#

Look man, please talk about Elder Scrolls games and your Elder Scrolls character. It makes me happy hearing them.

wide garnet
#

Eddy: What’s the word, Double D?

Edd: * sniff sniff * Inconclusive, Eddy.

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Me: It’s Sunday. Everyone’s taking a break.

scenic spade
#

Which means you all should have a pint of Black Briar mead with me instead of fighting draugr.

wide garnet
#

I’ve got an idea that can lead to a pint of Black-Briar mead afterwards, but we’ll do it in the DMs. I believe I still have one open with you.

nimble pond
#

It's Sunday, I'm busy slaughtering bunnies.

feral viper
#

I am dealing with a rapid need for militarization due to an expansion of Dark Fog hives. Who need to be destroyed before they threaten my oil supply line.

#

The factory must grow.

scenic spade
#

I have a real real question... Please take it seriously.......

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Let's say I'm rich, okay?

#

Is it reasonable for me to have a business negotiation with an experienced, skilled, and talented modder, and for a hefty sum of money, ask him to make me a majestic mod that adds stuff to my game? It'll be a big project of a mod, but the money offered will be by thousands...

Hopefully, if I were to do that, I won't be seen as a creepy weirdo. I just have to ask because I've always wanted to offer a great modder a huge sum just for him to make me a certain, big mod.

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I want him to basically mod me a palace of my Dragonborn the size of Jarl Balgruuf's Dragonsreach, add some mercenaries and guards, design it to my liking, give it a livestock and crop farm outside tended by guards and farmers... Chests and other storages inside, basically the Hearthfire Manor level of greatness but it's a palace for a Dragonborn. And then me and him talk about where to place it on the map. Turn it into a long quest before you get full ownership of it... Add features like hiring mercenaries, servants, like in Hearthfire....

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And make it legitimately protected against any dragon attacks through some kind of arcane architecture that kills off hostile dragons who get near it.

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I'll pay thousands for a top-tier modder to do that for me. And name the mod after what I want and then make it available to all players.

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Do you all know the mod realm of lorkhan? It has to be that big of a file.

eager remnant
sudden shard
feral viper
#

When ones fun runs afoul of legal standing, it's best to ruin it before someone gets into trouble.

primal olive
#

I have come to discuss snow elves

nimble pond
#

Hoping they use the in-depth crafting/mod system they got for guns in F4 and SF, but apply it to melee weapons this time and bows/crossbows, staves, all that. Armor too! I want to make unique things, not just another iron sword pickup for the 1000th time with a random enchant.

nimble pond
#

Also.. a shield that is capable of shooting magic spells, like fireball. And explosive poisons. That way I can pickpocket them and watch them explode upon a group of enemies or just be particularly deadly against a single foe. Sort of like a "timed" landmine.

feral viper
#

I think they expanding and iterating on Fallout 4 and Starfield's crafting system could really benefit TES6, if done right.

nimble pond
#

For sure, stuff like that is a lot of fun and really let's me make some unique stuff.

scenic spade
primal olive
pulsar root
#

Naaah, just genocidal

scenic spade
# primal olive smartest nord

I prefer the simple culture of the Orcs, honestly. And also their strength and self-sufficiency. They don't need a government to take care of them. Just give them weapons, tools, and an area to barricade.

primal olive
scenic spade
#

Simple living. Not necessarily easy, but simple living.

#

(Edited. Read again.)

feral viper
#

Nah. The past was the worst. I'll take systems if governsnce if it means a child mortality under 80%, let alone all the other benefits.

Not that Orcs are actually free of it anyway. They STILL have governance structures in their tribal groups, and a full on feudal kingship in Orsinium.

scenic spade
feral viper
#

Still dumps.

Give me working toilets any day.

#

In general, all the cultures and societies in Tamriel are... Kinda repugnant, from a modern perspective. I don't understand how anyone can idolise to them.

Sympathize with them, sure. But actually want to live in one? Naw dawg.

primal olive
#

magic and probably a cure to diabetes >>>> paying 300 dollars for glasses

nimble pond
nimble pond