elder-scrolls-general-chat

[hearty otter]

And the Dragon Break is conceptually useful for that sort of change

If TES still stayed within Tamriel, it could be that if you explore it, you could play out two different timelines - one on MMO and one in the single player game version of TES

And if it goes elsewhere apart from Tamriel, TES could explore the implications emanating from the Dragon Break - which is initially localised within the High Rock/Hammerfall area - in a sociopolitical manner, for example, people who worked for the states within area where the game Daggerfall took place within yet moved outwards away from these places, but there's seven different timelines playing out within these people. Because this means any characters from that area would bring their reality with them to these areas outside the High Rock/Hammerfall area. That would have interesting implications for future TES games

[feral viper]

While I would be all for wiping large swaths of the lore clean and redoing it, I don't think it will happen.

[hearty otter]

Never say never, especially when occasion necessitates the move. I just hope something interesting is going to happen to shake up TES as a whole for the better with the next game

[karmic shard]

Hello fam

[forest surge]

I don’t think it will, it happened a lot more during the series early years and games.

[hearty otter]

I think sometimes what is old can be new once again if such things are long forgotten and oft buried - sometimes, there's a surprising new perspective on the old thing in the intervening years that we would not have had when it was new

I think what I was talking about could be that opportunity

[forest surge]

They have reintroduced older lore in the series from Arena so I’m not saying it’s all forgotten but at the same time just because they were intent on changing the series from it’s inception does not necessarily mean they will erase lore that’s currently here

It’s very much in a position where they aren’t going to majorly change lore

[hearty otter]

There's been a lot of old aspects in many long running franchises that not many modern enjoyers would have known about yet would (and has) gone wild for

[forest surge]

Even then I’ve never been a fan of wiping the current lore clean, that either is a result of pettiness for something not going your way or not understanding that Lore is subjective

[hearty otter]

That somewhat has proven what I was saying however I can understand why sometimes it's harder and harder to do such things so radically especially when it's only to re-hash particular old aspects of the early series on such a scale

[hearty otter]

Oddly - I am not saying either, it is leaning into the fact that lore is subjective and is playing around with it and trying to see TES in a new light like we have never seen it before

What I am going for is a more playful approach to TES

Note: one aspect of my argument is that I want to see a playing around with the aspect where the Dragon Break was limited to some areas of Tamriel and even more limited to the fates of the participants within the Daggerfall story yet has metaphysical implications for TES because if some areas and some geopolitical states only had Dragon Break happen to them yet they brought that distortion with them if they moved away from these areas, then, it would have some potential for ways to tell TES's stories anew.

It doesn't necessary mean wiping the lore clean or being salty about lore; it's just one way, a way to see TES in an unexpected light

I put all these thoughts forward because it's not something I have to be serious or dogmatic about

It's actually an attempt to rethink how TES could be done

I'd love to be dazzled anew by TES

Daggerfall amazed me from day one. I want that for the new TES game

[feral viper]

Daggerfall was my gateway as well. But Morrowind was where I fell in love, and going back after Morrowind to play Battlespire and Redguard really cemented that.

Then, from Oblivion onward, it's become clear that the 1998-2001 period of TES was an anomaly, and the world really isn't that interesting or engaging. Bethesda clearly doesn't want that sort of fantasy, and complaining about it is a waste of time.

Overall, I think TES Oblivion has been much more like Daggerfall, than the Morrowind era was. I wouldn't call it vanilla, since I actually LIKE vanilla, but .. Cardboard Fantasy fits the bill.

It's important to remember that... Daggerfall did not create the Dragonbreak. Daggerfall didn't really do anything interesting, metaphysically. That was all Morrowind.

Daggerfall was a pretty generic 'Magic weapon' story.

Dragonbreaks were created to SOLVE Daggerfall. They were not part of Daggerfall it's self.

[hearty otter]

When I said Dragon Break, it's applicable to both DF and MW because DF created the structure and MW described it. Both fed into each other narratively in that sense.

It was a retcon by MW that worked beautifully because it felt natural all that time. Without DF's structure, there would not have been MW's idea of Dragon Break.

I love both MW and DF. When I was speaking about playfulness and TES, I was thinking of MW's twist on DF and how DF impacted MW - both play on each other's weaknesses and strengths to uplift each other.

(AND I WAS NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT ANYTHING OR HATING ON ANYTHING in my previous writings - please do not read it that way at all please - if you read me as a complainer or hater then I have failed to communicate what I was trying to communicate in the first place)

[hearty otter]

See - I love both the fantastic mundanity of DF climbing into unusual weirdness and MW for its beautiful weirdness revealing depth of its workings and its conception of society in an alien world (to us) so both are great in their own ways.

I do not think Daggerfall was a cardboard kind of fantasy nor was Oblivion because as much drawbacks as DF and Oblivion had, there were things they had going that would be difficult to discover in many other fantasy games

If DF was just a pretty generic "Magic Weapon" sort of game then we would not have had MW or any other TES titles - it would have vanished into the ethers of history

MW put TES on the map however without DF, it would not have been seen or thought of because MW was a dialectical response to DF and whatever Arena left to the TES as a whole

[hearty otter]

For example, going through towns and cities in Daggerfall had (and still does) have an oddly surreal feel where you feel you are walking through places with a grand sort of feel.
There's holidays, banks, loans, etc.
You could be tried in court etc.
All this built up to something that was surreally mundane yet magical on a grand scale.

One thing I always liked about Daggerfall is that once you get going, things become pretty out of pocket and barmy in terms of random interactions and missions yet at moments when all became quiet and you realise how mournful it can be sometimes in aesthetic and feel. Love that dichotomy.

And Daggerfall had an aspect that (only Morrowind actually more deeply explored it) but never touched in later series, except for certain story beats of Skyrim, and that's covering political intrigue and sneakiness.

If MW's Dragon Break was "made to solve" (I think "added to") DF, then the political intrigue coupled with alternate realities as cast by the Dragon Break would have contributed to a new seam of metaphysical and metaphorical exploration to be made on a grander scale in TES.

Again, this is not wiping away lore nor is that required.

AGAIN - this is not me being salty about lore or whatever is that you think that I'm thinking about lore.

What it's actually is more like a quilt patch potentially being added to a bigger quilt or an addition of a couple of panels or some pages to a larger comic book, which nevertheless changes (and transmutes) the TES game's vibe and direction into a possibly unexpected new direction.

Again, this is not serious nor dogmatic.

[pale walrus]

I think what you're saying is that BGS should entertain the idea of using a Dragon Break event to split the timelines between ESO and single player ES, providing an opportunity for one or the other to 'clean up' the lore and perhaps simply differentiating the storylines for each IP. Am I reading you right, or am I missing the actual point?

[hearty otter]

It can go either the way of there being a MMO/ SP ES game split lore using the Dragon Break OR diffusing effects of an initially localised Dragon Break upon the rest of the world (remember, it's been said the original Dragon Break was localised to the areas Daggerfall covered in-game) so that's the quilt patch option I was thinking of

1. Dragon Break split-lore between games (which means two parallel lores exploring the implications of the Dragon Break on a grander scale and in a more of a metanarrative manner)
   or
2. Dragon Break localised but socially spreads to the rest of the world yet it's part of the existing lore (and the lore will not be broke) and plays around with it narratively. The Dragon Break itself does not necessarily have to be depicted
   or
3. Dragon Break is in only one game yet splits into competing realities by an event but is re-solved by a magical object and is entirely confined to a Morrowind-like game (||but is a reverse of Daggerfall's plot||) and you could play around with that

[forest surge]

I rather they not

[hearty otter]

Well, like I said, I wasn't being serious. And they don't have to do any of these ideas however I do want a more playful and odd sort of TES game

Like Morrowind (and Daggerfall to an extent)

I'd love that - I want to feel a sense of wonder and excitement

That's actually the ultimate point, I want to play like I just saw the the city of Vivec for the first time ever

[nimble pond]

Parallel lores? Maybe Lyg could be twisted into that.

[feral viper]

I'm very much the opposite. And I can't actually voice my opinion on Oblivion onward here due to the channel rules, so I will leave it at that.

Sufficed to say, the lore is basically dead for me. So the mechanics and gameplay systems are really the only thing of value left to the franchise.

So I'll tap out till we get back to that, I guess.

The more I talk about lore, the more I am likely to get in trouble.

[hearty otter]

Yeah - that's one possibility haha

[odd grove]

I would want to know what happened to the dwarfs in es6

[glass marlin]

We basically have a clear possibility of what happened based on what we've been given already.

[livid ingot]

Yup. Morrowind basically gave us most of the clues we needed to figure it out. And the quest in Skyrim featuring Keening I'm Skyrim all but absolutely confirmed it.

[bright siren]

Hot take? I'm sick and tired of the Dwemer and really don't care to see them again. Far as I'm concerned that mystery is solved or close enough to solved for me to not really care. We've met multiple dwarves by this point, seen several of their plots/escapades -- I'm done at this point tbh

[feral viper]

Agreed.

The way they have been used further reinforces the need to just move on from them.

[livid ingot]

Well be prepared for more if the next game is set in Hammerfell lol

Honestly I would like to see Bethesda create new ancient ruins, either drawing upon existing lore or creating entirely new lore.

[odd grove]

What race do you think they might add to play if any

[nimble pond]

Fish. Lol

[odd grove]

Maybe a throw in race that should of been

[livid ingot]

In order of likelyhood? Reachmen, Imga, Maomer, uh... Sload.

There's always a chance of the Akaviri races I guess but those would come together

[nimble pond]

Akavir could open up several races, but who knows when or if we'll ever go there.

[odd grove]

Tell you the truth I hope they add a race that gives you an edge on es6

[livid ingot]

Actually to add to this I bet the Ayleids have a "chance." Unlike other extinct races, we have rumors of the Wild Elves still being around in Daggerfall

[hidden herald]

Technically, Ayleids are still around
||Large portion of Bosmer are direct descendants of the Ayleids||

[livid ingot]

So they have a better chance than Dwemer, Kothringi, Lilmothiit, Falmer, etc

[hidden herald]

Kothringi are almost extinct in the 2nd Era, Lilmothiit might be hiding in Black Marsh, which may or may not be the 2025 chapter for ESO, Falmer still exist but most are hostile, Maomer can fit well but generally aren't trusted enough by other races to not be attacked on sight if not already a prisoner.

Sload Polymorph would be fun, though

[livid ingot]

True, but won't factor into the decision to add Ayleids as a race

[livid ingot]

I honestly would love to play as a Sload lol

Its just like, 100% never going to happen due to their build being so unlike the other races

[hidden herald]

As recognized as a separate race, Ayleids are pretty much 100% extinct, but ended up mixed with other races I think

[feral viper]

I'd rather they toss Race into the bin altogether. It's an outdated, crude delineation of populations that ultimately only serves to railroad character identities, smother roleplay options, and perpetuate gross oversimplifications.

As a world, TES is already well past the point where they can go full Species, so just get rid of the whole thing and accept the realities of the system you have instead of clinging to problematic 1970s stereotyping systems.

[livid ingot]

I agree, how likely that is at this stage is questionable though

Might have to wait for the next generation (TES:VII) when most of the old guard are gone

[feral viper]

In a mechanic sense, choosing a Phenotype and then building your character from there would be the best approach. No bonuses for Phenotype, just how you look.

Unless they actually have a functional disposition system. Which... They've tried in the past but never actually nailed.

[wide garnet]

Here’s something else I’d like to share from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction:

Konahrik (did I get that right?) is going to be inspired by a certain Omen King, and he’s also going to be responsible for the corruption of the Dragon Cult, and also for Atmora ultimately freezing over.

While intially siding with Corypheus, he’s ultimately planning on backstabbing him and seizing the Throne of the Gods for himself/his master, Alduin.

He’s not going to show himself until Alduin’s defeat on the Throat of the World during the chapter/mission In Hushed Whispers because he’s avenging his master’s slight/defeat, angry with Matthias being Dragonborn (because he’s having not-so-pleasant flashbacks about Miraak’s betrayal, and which is why he calls Matthias a “usurper, emboldened by the flame of ambition!”), and he’s the backup plan for throwing Orlais into chaos.

[glass marlin]

I hope Jygalaag reappears at some point.

[wide garnet]

He already “reappears”, after a fashion, in the Saints and Sinners Creation.

[glass marlin]

I know, but I'm hoping for a more active role or at least a Daedric quest.

[pale walrus]

Playable races - I'm not sure I see an advantage from introducing any more. The real distinction between the races is tribal; calling them races doesn't actually 'fit.' After all, they can all interbreed (including the khajiit and argonians, from what I heard.) So what we're really talking about is cultural differences, which are potentially very fun to explore if detailed skillfully. We can still explore cultures such as those of the Maormer, Sload and others without having new PC 'buildout' options. Truth is, the outward physical characteristics become irrelevant quite quickly during gameplay. I even joined the stormcloaks as an Altmer, to the tremendous initial surprise of Ulfric. However, he very quickly gets over it and accepts the Altmer PC, again demonstrating how superficial the physical differences truly are in-game.

[pale walrus]

I can see it already....

Jiggy comes to the PC and assigns him a task - the retrieval of the "manteau de l'univers." You have to go thru all sorts of insane adventures to find this thing, and when you do get it, the thing looks quite simply like a plain, dull, ordinary, grey cloth. That's it. A grey cloth. And who has the thing and is putting all the obstacles in your way to retrieving it? Sheogorath. facepalm

[feral viper]

More to the point of Character Creation...

I think one of the major ways that it could be improved, is to include a two tiered system like the old days, but instead of just using Class, use 3 selections.

Race - Phenotype and a small boost to some skills, dictated by the cultural norms of that group, along with one or two starting perks.

Birthsign - Prepackaged Traits that reflect the astrological signs.

Class - Main boost to starting skills. And Perks.

So, if you want to quickly generate a character and get to playing, you can pick a combination of 10 Races, 13 Birthsigns, and 21 classes. At base, this creates 2730 different character types to start with.

However, like with Morrowind and Oblivion, add a Custom option. But instead of Morrowind and Oblivion limiting it to Custom Class, go back to Daggerfall and allow you to REALLY make a custom character.

If you're making a Custom Character, then... Balance be damned.

Want to start at max level with overpowered Traits and carve your way across the game like a god? Go for it.

Want to start at level 1 with no developed Skills and a bunch of negatives, effectively starting as a crippled pauper and having to crawl your way up from the bottom? Go for it.

Want to start as a farmer? A veteran soldier? A bookworm? A hyperallergenic Alchemist trying to cast off the image of Nerd?

Let it all be doable.

[feral viper]

I'd even go so far as to say... Add a 22 prefab class: Prisoner.

Your basic blank slate, level 1, no developed Skills start.

Normal Classes start you at, say, Level 5. With Skills and a couple Perks already in place.

Prisoner Class is your blank slate start, at level 1.

Then you can Custom whatever you want.

[eager remnant]

That's pretty tough to do, because it will likely filter out legitimate single queries as well as spammed ones. We have issued reprimands in the past. I think that is the best we can do at this time.

[soft lynx]

https://tenor.com/view/kk-brodslin-ok-khajiit-elder-scrolls-gif-17647458

khajiit we want many khajiit....

[hearty otter]

Holy cabbage, that's the best rendered Khajiit I've ever seen. Where did you get that render animatic from?

I'm genuinely impressed

To think we had humanoid Khajiits in 1994/1996 in 2.5D pixel render fast forward to this!

[soft lynx]

you will be surprised - it goes under khajit here in the discord database for gif animation

[hearty otter]

For anybody lost on what I'm talking about
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/e/e7/Daggerfall_-_Khajiit.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20191219023546

[hearty otter]

Nice, can you point me in its direction please?

[soft lynx]

this is a rare type of khajit - they dont have any cat attributes... but they look like human...

I bet something has to do with a unique moon's positioning...

[hearty otter]

I know, that's the lore explanation, however, I was thinking of the art evolution when I was talking about this graphics improvement

[hearty otter]

I wouldn't be surprised

[hearty otter]

And this is the 1994 OG Arena Khajiit:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/8/87/Khajiit_(Arena).png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20191225230513

[hearty otter]

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit_(Arena)

Apparently, they had cats on the mind even back then

Legend has it that they descended from an intelligent feline race, for they still retain a strange cast to their features. Many Khajiit have taken to painting their faces to more resemble their distant cousins, the predatory cats that hunt the great desert. Khajiit are expert climbers, able to scale chasm wall sides with speed unmatched by any other race.

[feral viper]

That is from the ESO Elsweyr trailer, if I remember correctly.

[hearty otter]

Then they're getting really good technically these days, holy dagnammit

[feral viper]

All the ESO trailers are pretty good. I think the Elves look generally lame in them, but people want humanoid Elves for some boring reason.

Elves should only look human at a distance. Up close, they should be hauntingly different, playing into the uncanny Valley just enough as to be both beautiful and creepy.

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-da59378e3d46621b0c5a0029b24e9548-lq

[hearty otter]

I actually do agree with you there about Elves

Elves are classically like this, excluding most of Tolkien's influence, they were faerie-like. Deeply uncanny

[feral viper]

Mmhmm. But, specifically to TES, I think the best take on their Elves comes from an artist who has unfortunately stopped producing art, that went by the handle of Kokomiko

[hearty otter]

And it would be cool to reinterpret Elves in that light

[feral viper]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAqYr1SWqrlLKkSHR0nfEhHS4bA2NUA6_cVQ&s

[hearty otter]

Can you link to Kokomiko's works?

[feral viper]

Basically, she played with the angular features and drawn brows of Morrowind's and Skyrim's Mer to keep things distinct, without losing the attractiveness and expression like Skyrim did and which Morrowind was unable to encapsulate due to its graphical limitations.

[hearty otter]

I like the last pic on the bottom of the top-mid far-right greenscale row depicting a lady with a Queen Amidala-like hairstyle

She nails the old school aesthetic well in that pic

[feral viper]

Yeah. Long, drawn and angular faces with very clear cheekbones, and vertical drawn brows to emphasise a stern and almost judgemental resting expression.

I think it's a fantastic look, especially for Altmer.

[hearty otter]

Perfectly haughty, uncanny yet proud and powerful in feel

[feral viper]

Then you have the friendlier, almost mischievous Bosmer, and the Dunmer being a blend of the two.

[hearty otter]

I love the design of the Dumner - feels like they could have conceivably lived in a place like Morrowind

[feral viper]

This is, in my opinion, a better take on Mer than anything Bethesda or ZoS have done, concept or otherwise.

[hearty otter]

Komokiko's designs could have made TES feel like a more lively sort of series imo

[feral viper]

Indeed. But, I have gushed long enough. Back to work.

[odd grove]

Elder Scrolls 6 might just have exploration into other regions to shake things up

Never know they had small regions that you could explore in Skyrim se

[feral viper]

Every province is diverse enough geographically to present a wide range of environments to explore. They don't need to multiple regions, they just need to up the scale to allow for more expansive biomes within the world space.

[nimble pond]

True, but I wouldn't mind exploring in-depth the culture of two cultures simultaneously (preferably well-contrasted) since it's basically province specific. Because well Skyrim was just Nords and we know how you feel about them 😄

[eager remnant]

I personally don't think Skyrim was 'just Nords.' On the contrary, I actually think Skyrim is second only to Morrowind in its presentation of cultural diversity. We see Orc culture (including architecture) for the very first time in the series. We see Altmer cultural attitudes differing from those of other races for the first time since Morrowind. We see differences in Breton cultures, as represented by Forsworn and Imperial-aligned Bretons. And contrary to popular belief I do not believe Nords are represented a having a monolithic culture. Skaal cultural values are significantly different from the values espoused by Nords who have been integrated into the Empire.

[pale walrus]

All valid points. Some thoughts:

1. I'm hoping the attitudes espoused by the Thalmor do not reflect Altmer society in general. That would be very depressing.

[hidden herald]

Even within Skyrim it seems to not be the case, just anyone that opposed it was killed, like in the Night of Green Fire
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Legate_Fasendil

That doesn't mean they don't have a high opinion of themselves and the Altmer at large, but not to the extreme of ruling/destroying others over it

[pale walrus]

2. The Skaal were quite a surprise. I suspect Ysgramor and his companions were far more like the Skaal than like the Nords of the 4th era.

[odd grove]

Burn thalmor burn 🔥😂

[nimble pond]

Missed my point. All races are present, however it's completely obvious where the main focal point is per one province game.. Skyrim - Nords, Oblivion - Imperials, Morrowind - Dark Elves. Even with other races present in Skyrim, they all felt Nordic in some way to me despite not actually being Nords. Not saying it's a bad thing, but that's just how it's been with the themes.

[hollow whale]

I want to join ElderScrolls6 developer team. But I can't. Because there're no Bethesda Game Studio in my country (T_T).

[feral viper]

Considering 4th era Nords have collectively about 7 brain cells, I would have to agree.

Like the Graeae. Except instead of sharing one eye, they share one neuron with which to think of.. and there's 3 million of them.

[livid ingot]

What's the best faction in Oblivion and why is it the Order of the Virtuous Blood?
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Order_of_the_Virtuous_Blood_(faction)

[wide garnet]

I’m guessing that they don’t know about the Dawnguard.

[livid ingot]

I don't interact with those posers 😤

[wide garnet]

Let’s just assume, for the sake of the argument, that the Order of Virtuous Blood learn about the Dawnguard. What’ll they do? What’ll they think of them?

[livid ingot]

Honestly though the Knights of the White Stallion is a close runner up. But that's like 98% Mazoga, the Black Bow bounty is pathetic, really. Also, the KotWS is also one of the few factions with a canine member 🐕: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Pumpkin_(creature)

[livid ingot]

I don't think the Dawguard would respect them much. Founded by a vampire, nobody has any vampire-hunting skills.

The Order would probably feel a serious case of imposter's syndrome, ha

[wide garnet]

I’m saying that the Dawnguard will respect their mission, even offer them some training, but keep the other hand on their weapons, just in case.

I’m also wondering what the Vigilants of Stendarr in mainland Cyrodiil would think of the Dawnguard. I’ve got that Stendarr, himself, doesn’t hold Isran’s “desertion” against him because the Vigilants are just too “broadly focused” to handle the unique threat of vampires.

[livid ingot]

The Vigilants undoubtedly approve of their activities, I'm sure

[scenic oak]

Do you think that they’ll anything about es6 at quakecon

[feral viper]

Unlikely.

[scenic oak]

In Skyrim I just kill all vigilants and take their apparel

[pale walrus]

Assuming TH is there the press will be asking him about it. Undoubtedly he has a very wordy set of empty drivel to give to them.

[feral viper]

From a purely marketing standpoint, the only reason to say anything about TES6 would be to start building excitement for it. But doing so would mean distracting excitement and attention from the game you are currently trying to bouy: Starfield, and it's Expansions.

So unless you are trying to distract from Starfield, there would be no good reason to say much about TES6. And if you are trying to distract from Starfield, it's not a good sign.

Therefore, we can reasonably conclude that they will not say anything meaningful about TES6.

[pale walrus]

In fact, I'm hoping to hear quite a bit about the upcoming SF DLC/expansion. I'm still waiting on the sidelines with regards to the title. If the reactions and reviews upon release are strongly positive, it will be a pivotal moment and have long term implications with respect to BGS operations.

[nimble pond]

Starborn? Is he man who dreams he is a star or star who dreams he is man? M'aiq does not know..

[feral viper]

M'aiq says all are Starborn. They are born under star signs, yes?

Nevermind that Birthsigns twinge the monkey part of my brain that make me want to screech and break things every time someone mentions their astrology sign...

There is a special kind of contempt I hold for that whole rats nest of nonsense, both in reality and in fiction.

[feral viper]

Oh, I wish it was just 14 year olds. 37 now, and I do not know a single woman who doesn't know their horoscope. It's...

Like with Race, the inclusion of blatantly incorrect concepts in fiction and the imposition of mechanical value to them, just hits all the wrong buttons.

But the idea at least has SOME value, so long as it's not a strict imposition.

[nimble pond]

@feral viper what is your astrological sign if you don't mind? 🙂 I'll read your sign "TES-style."

[eager remnant]

Take the astrological discussion to #off-topic, please.

[hidden herald]

Only astrology allowed is specifically as it is in The Elder Scrolls games/lore, not IRL

[feral viper]

Not a clue.

And my point was more that I think the idea, especially as used in Morrowind and Oblivion, was just as garbage as real world Astrology.

Imposing traits and identities on people just because of the time of year and star alignments they were born under, is flat out terrible game design, mechanical implementation, and worldbuilding.

Really, any system which is designed to impose an identity on you is negative in a free form RPG.

[scenic oak]

Do you think in es6 they’ll bring back the permanent followers

[pale walrus]

Yes. I'm hoping BGS also improves the follower behavior so that they don't walk in front of you the moment you're about to shoot an arrow and that when you're crouched and moving stealthily, they don't independently move forward to attack. Both were rage-inducing problems in Skyrim. It got so bad for me that I began leaving my follower either outside the dungeon/crypt/ruin entrance or would station them a good 50 yards behind me and run back to retrieve the follower once a particular area was cleared of baddies.

[nimble pond]

I figured it out, your horoscope says: Do not look in the TES general chat on discord today as you will be most displeased with a certain topic 🔮

It is kinda fun tho. I'd totally drop gold septims on a fortune teller or astrologer in-game. Maybe bring me a lil luck or superstition protection. Tarots are entertaining too. Gypsy hexes and curses.
Any of which would make for a snappy, if not comical, follower type.

Oh they could make a lot of the character creation options, well optionable. For example, say you want to make a character who doesn't believe in astrology. Therefore your birthsign and any traits option or whatever from that would simply not apply (neither positively or negatively) to your character.

[nimble pond]

A fix for this could be how we order our followers. Like when you talk to them, you pick their combat mode. Stealth, offensive, defensive, etc. That way when you actually want them to be stealthy and not go clunking around like a headless chicken, you can do that. So they don't just all repeat the same behaviors.

[nimble pond]

I mean if I can't tell them to go back home and they always with me, or I can't pick any other followers, then no, I wouldn't want that.

[pale walrus]

Astrology and 'hero of destiny/prophecy' are not surprising as storytelling paradigms in 'sword & sorcery' RPGs. We have all sorts of examples of it in our own myths and stories - Conan the Barbarian who would one day become King by his own hand, Achilles the doom-driven Greek warrior and nemesis of Troy's Hector, etc...It was done well in ES3, but came across (at least to me) as hamfisted in ES4 and ES5. If the PC was divorced from such frameworks in ES6, it could be very interesting and even liberating. Such a choice in development will test the storywriting skills of BGS. Let's see if they make the choice and, if so, what they do with it.

[hidden herald]

Within the Elder Scrolls, my interpretation is that being the Prisoner is something pretty much anyone is capable of but only a few actually become it, and pretty much anyone is capable of becoming a hero that happens to fit into a prophecy but that prophecy usually was not specific to you.
Being Dragonborn is probably the main exception, but even that might be able to change.

[livid ingot]

I think someone once described the prisoner as being unbound by fate, capable of true free will.

Something like that anyway.

[scenic oak]

No I meant ones that can’t die

[hidden herald]

Recently, ||Herma Mora implied that all mortals, not Daedra, have true free will||

[half sail]

hello, i wanted to ask a general question here, i recently started playing on PC this week and as a lot of you know there is a steam sale now for all bethesda games and i am planning to buy all the fallout, elder scroll and wolfinstine games (maybe doom and starfield but probably not until the next sale) as i have watched all of them during the years and love almost all of them even the old ones the 1998-2002. my quest ion here is since this is the elder scrolls chat which game elder scroll game should i start with do i play in order or start with elder scrolls online since it is an mmo that changes every season (i have all dlcs) any recommendation will be helpful?

[bright siren]

If you want to play an MMO play ESO. If you’re interested at all in the single player games I’d recommend starting with Skyrim. It’s worth noting that the single player games and ESO are really quite different so I wouldn’t say ESO is representative of the rest of the series in gameplay.

[half sail]

thank you, I mainly play single player games on PS4 except cod, R6 and some BR games additionally i have never played an mmo ( i heard ESO is more grindy than all of the hunting and material collection quests in all Bethesda games combined, so i am leaving it for now).

one last question are all these games moldable (except ESO)?

[bright siren]

All the single player games are moddable to my knowledge. The only thing would be certain games, say Arena or Redguard, don’t have the largest fanbases and thus they are unlikely to have many options for mods

[eager remnant]

Only Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyyrim have full mod support. The other games are severely restricted in what can and cannot be modded.

[half sail]

well i mostly want FPS cap on the old game and auto-loot + infinite storage on all games, as i tend to pick up everything in theses game and it tares me apart to leave anything even a rock behind.

[nimble pond]

I didn't mean it as a main thing, more a side thing. The way you're describing it comes off as a more concrete fate/destiny tied to your characters main story rather than a grouping of various entertaining parlor games/tricks. We're thinking two different things, the whole "hero of destiny/fate" you're talking about is it's own thing.. and is basically in many, many games outside of TES too. I don't even put that in the same light as Astrology, it's basically become it's own rogue gimmick for storytelling, often not even tied or having anything to do with actual Astrology at all.

[feral viper]

However, the development of later stuff directly contradicts that, indicating NO ONE does.

Or, at least, that the writers don't actually understand Free Will and the philosophy around it.

Of course, the same could be said about a lot of things, and serious tone RPGs in particular are predicated on the players being rather daft, and not being able to recognise just how nonsense a lot of what's going on is.

[forest surge]

Pretty sure that was Ithelia, Mora doesn’t believe in free will but pre determined fate

[fallow jackal]

Is there any way to learn about the game mechanics in ESO without becoming more annoyed and frustrated than I am already?
The "tutorial" is completely useless. I'm trying to get the achievement for the Oblivion Portal event to claim the free stuff, but all I do is die. Over and over and over and over and over...
For me it's impossible and I'm incredibly unhappy about it. Was having fun doing quests. Now just annoyed and frustrated 🤬😭🤬

Please help 😞

[spare anchor]

Hi! This server is for the single player Elder Scrolls games. You'll want to check out the ESO forums for that game: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/

[fallow jackal]

@spare anchor doesn't work at all
Unable to log in or register. That website is useless to me 🤬😞🤬

[spare anchor]

You have to request access if you didn't sign up when you made your account: https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/#en/answer/7566

[nimble pond]

You know, it'd be nice if there was a dreamworld we could enter when out character sleeps. Like have actual random dreams/nightmares or go to some actual realm of sleepland instead of watching a slider countdown the hours. Maybe even end up in our currently assigned follower's dreams or them in ours sometimes when both sleeping at same time. Not saying have to go there everytime we sleep, but as an explorable option to visit whenever you do want to. Otherwise you can just close your eyes to darkness per usual to skip thru the hours.

[fallow jackal]

@spare anchor
Says I have to wait up to 48 hours. Is that normal. I have consistently had issues with the ESO website I don't know what is normal. Very frustrating.

[spare anchor]

Just depends on when the queue is pulled. But you're guaranteed to receive access in 48 hours, may be less though.

[fallow jackal]

Thanks for your assistance @spare anchor

[spare anchor]

You're welcome!

[fallow jackal]

@spare anchor is there other sources for help with the game mechanics? I'm so terribly frustrated with the current Oblivion Portal event. It's literally impossible to complete for me on my own and I have no idea how to get any help.

[spare anchor]

I know there's a few websites with game guides, but I'm not sure of any off the top of my head. You should be able to still browse the forums without being logged in. You could try checking for new player guides there.

[fallow jackal]

Sad thing is I'm not a new player. Problem is that the tutorial is useless. I appreciate you trying to help. One more question, is there ever going to be an actual tutorial that teaches you everything you need to know? The current one is, honestly, a joke.

@spare anchor

[eager remnant]

I would take a look at Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages' ESO section. You can find it here: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Online

[fallow jackal]

@eager remnant thanks. I'll check it out. YouTube hasn't been any real help

[feral viper]

You could play with Vaermina in that way.

Unfortunately, by and large the approach to Daedra has been 'Daedra am mean demons' and lacking much in the way of broad conceptual depth. So I wouldn't be surprised if people have forgotten she's the prince of dreams AND nightmares, instead of just the latter.

I think you'd need specific quests to explore that though, rather than it being a more general gameplay element.

[nimble pond]

That's what I was thinking, they already got the whole dreams and nightmares Daedric Prince in there.. I'm surprised it's not already a thing having dreams/nightmares when we sleep.

[half sail]

Hello I have a question about the bundle containing the top 3 elder scroll games, when I buy the (summer bundle) do I get the Skyrim DLCs or are the DLCs in the Skyrim anniversary addition

[eager remnant]

Our characters did experience dreams once (though they were text-based). During Morrowind's main quests we would receive this message after sleeping: "You had a disturbing dream. You can only recall one point. A tall figure with a golden mask led you among the dead as through a wedding celebration. You heard many voices, but no lips moved. You strained to breathe, but your chest didn't move. The tall figure spoke with each figure as he passed among them, laughing and joking, as if they were alive, but they made no reply. You tried to cry out, but without breath, your tongue fluttered in vain."

[scenic oak]

I hope in es6 player homes aren’t like starfield homes I like stuff to store

[bright siren]

Since the bundle includes Skyrim Special edition you get all of the big addons for Skyrim. Anniversary edition would be if you wanted all of the creation club content as well.

[nimble pond]

You could enter dreamland like every time you slept or this was just part of a quest?

[eager remnant]

We dream at least four times during the main quest. In addition several "Sleepers" will approach us. and say things like: "Life is a dream. Blood is a dream. We sleep in one soul, the soul of Lord Dagoth." These Sleepers can be woken up later, for a reputation gain.

[pale walrus]

https://tenor.com/view/what-if-dream-gif-19183809

[nimble pond]

Don't start that up again, https://i.pinimg.com/originals/53/48/90/5348909abd9e6e282f4559256e5b3841.gif

[wild rivet]

Is it better oblivion or morrowind?

I mean in what game you had more fun

[feral viper]

Morrowind. Though I had more fun in Arena, than Oblivion.

[wild rivet]

Ok thanks

[eager remnant]

Definitely Morrowind for me too. It is pretty much tied with Skyrim as my all-time favorite game by any developer. I am unable to play Oblivion unless I use mods. But with a boatload of gameplay-changing mods I am able to enjoy Oblivion tolerably well.

[wild rivet]

Do you suggest me to load fighting overhaul mods?

People have been complaining alot about fighting and that you are unable to do much things

[feral viper]

Honestly, I think if you're ok with a rather generic setting, bland quests and a few standout crumbs...

Just play Neverwinter Nights.

Skyrim is simply better in every way over Oblivion, and Morrowind is a standout in worldbuilding for the genre. So Oblivion really doesn't offer anything beyond nostalgia for those who had it as their RPG Gateway.

[eager remnant]

For which game?

[wild rivet]

Morrowind

[pale walrus]

Morrowind over Oblivion any day of the week. If you want to get the absolute best take on Oblivion, watch a YT vid that gives you a playthrough of the Shivering Isles DLC, which was the best that Oblivion had to offer. But Morrowind far outshines Oblivion in terms of genuinely fascinating & imaginative setting and storytelling. Then skip over Oblivion and go to Skyrim. It doesn't have the storytelling strength of Morrowind, but the setting itself has an epic quality and the sheer amount of things to do is amazing. Don't be surprised if in your first playthrough (with both the Dawnguard and Dragonborn DLCs) Skyrim takes over 500 hours for you to complete every single quest. For me it was closer to 700, but I am meticulous about covering absolutely every square inch of territory in RPGs.

[eager remnant]

Morrowind's combat is my favorite in the single-player games. It is much more character-skill-based than Oblivion or Skyrim, which I like. The main problem with Morrowind's combat, in my opinion, is that the combat animation do not represent the gameplay. In our early levels we see swords and arrows pass through enemies when our characters miss, which looks clunky. But at higher skill levels our characters hit just as often as in Skyrim or Oblivion. This gives me a feeling of achievement, of progression that is absent from later games.

[wild rivet]

Wow thanks, now 3/3 of people who have replied said morrowind, i played Skyrim so much i lost count of the hours i have and probably i dont have much more to do in it, so i was interested to play morrowind or oblivion (i watched some gameplay of Oblivion and found it very interesting but i think its like skyrim but older, then i watched some videos of Morrowind and it also seemed very good)

[feral viper]

Morrowind is fundamentally different in terms of combat, from Skyrim. So it's going to take some getting used to. But it's not entirely BAD, at least no more than Skyrim is. It's just in a different way.

[pale walrus]

In terms of combat, probably the most important skill/factor for me is STEALTH. I like approaching a situation either indoors or outdoors as quietly as I can in order to assess the environment before engaging. Skyrim supported this at a decent level, but I think much more could be done. For instance: having a 'noise gauge' that is influenced by how you're moving, the ambient environment and what you're wearing & carrying. Also: noise is not the only factor of relevance in stealth. A stealth movement system should also account for light & shadow, along with SMELL. This should have existed in Skyrim, because the Falmer ought to have had a very well developed sense of smell. I had far too easy a time sneaking around in their lairs. I'm likely asking for too much, but I think I'm on fair ground stating that the stealth system could be further improved in ES.

[eager remnant]

Skyrim accounts for many of these things already, such as line-of-sight, noise (what we wear affects detectability), how fast we move (moving faster negatively affects our ability to remain undetected), lighting conditions (we are harder to detect in low-light conditions) (light spells and even the glow coming off our hands when we have a spell equipped make us easier to detect) (carrying a torch also makes us easier to detect), the weapons we use (using a two-hander draws more nearby attention than a dagger), being previously detected by that enemy (they remember), and distance from the enemy (being closer makes us easier to detect).

The one thing you mentioned that isn't in the game is smell. I'm not sure I would want that. Smell would need to be implemented in all aspects of gameplay to feel consistent. This in turns mandates an
immersion mode" that takes regular bathing into account for all characters, and I am opposed to that.

[pale walrus]

Most importantly, I was hoping for a 'noise meter.' I think that can be done - I'm sure I've seen it elsewhere. In terms of smell, I respect your objections to the idea, but I think it could be a pretty cool addition. I know I'm asking a lot. Maybe there's a 'simple' way to do it. For instance, if a person actually bathes or showers once every 24 hours, their 'stink level' is zero. If, during that 24 hours, they wade thru a sewer, that should raise their 'stink level' quite severely. Other factors could be brought into play, and perhaps the scale could be adjusted (a character who takes a bath and then goes for a 10km run should have a higher 'stink level' than when freshly bathed.)

Just an idea. I know I would be complicating things for the devs.

[nimble pond]

If that's something you want I would go more along the lines of thermal/heat and camouflage over armor. Ya know, like Predator. I liked the Khajiit night vision, thought that was very cool.

But "camouflage" in general was something I was interested in. But no, not as Chameleon spell again.

[feral viper]

Indeed. The main problem with stealth in Bethesda games is the lack of feedback to indicate where you, the player, are messing up.

The singular Detection Eye only really tells you the 3 main states of enemy behaviour in relation to you, it doesn't give you an indication of HOW they detected you and thus how you can compensate to prevent it.

Starfield did slightly better, with a sound indicator, but it's still... Not great.

Of course, the almost pathological fear of the dark in Bethesda games doesn't help. I was actually kind of excited in the first mine in Starfield, because it was PROPERLY dark. But the game very quickly devolves back into the big standard ambient lighting because having to make people actually use a flashlight is asking too much of players apparently.

I've gotten into the habit of turning the games gamma settings down as far as they can go, just to try and inject a little bit of believable darkness into dark environments.

[feral viper]

I think the simpler solution is to just use Smell as a situational debuf that makes detection easier. It's something you CATCH by being in particular environments or fighting particular enemies, rather than something you generally accrue.

And then it goes away when you Rest.

[eager remnant]

To clarify, I actually don't mind the idea of having to bathe in order to stay clean. I've used "needs" mods (bathing, eating, drinking, sleeping, ect) in several of Bethesda's games and I often roleplay that my characters bathe when I'm not using those mods. But I would want it to be optional. I don't think we should force all players to bathe regularly in order to avoid a smell debuff. Because it would feel very odd to me if smell was a gameplay factor in sneaking but did not appear anywhere else in the game I would make "needs" an optional mode. If the player chose this mode it would add an additional smell factor to the sneak formula.

[feral viper]

I am, as a general rule, against 'Maintenance' activities. Bathing, eating, repairing equipment, etc. All they do is tax your gameplay and drag out game times.

[nimble pond]

Yea, but what if our character passes gas at the worst possible time surrounded by enemies? We're going to light up on their radar like a blinding light. This could also be particularly hazardous with fire mages.

[feral viper]

Random chance to explode while using fire spells and on a high fibre diet.

[nimble pond]

Still one of the main things I'd really like to see take off is seasons. It's cool the game has day and night cycles, various weather patterns. Adding seasons and all kinds of effects it has upon the world, i'm not talking simply changing how the foilage looks. I like the idea of making the world more and more "living" and even with more variety, returning to previous areas to find them quite different than the last visit. Even something as small as seeing a sapling out in the wilderness one year and the next it's a full grown tree and a new home to some critters. Body decomposition, after a week, they've turned completely skeleton. Food molding and rotting.

[feral viper]

The issue with Seasons, I think, is the size of the world, and travel times.

On Daggerfall's scale, it could work. Because you spend weeks through fast travel moving around the map.

But on the scale we've had since Morrowind, the actual game world is simply too small to justify that sort of investment in a system. MOST playthroughs wouldn't even cover a single year, and could never even transition from one season to another (depending on how fast you do things).

So you'd either need a vastly accelerated seasonal system (thus requiring you to basically discard the established calender and dating system) or you'd need to significantly increase the game space (thus ending up in the much maligned Loading Screen Hell of Starfield).

You probably COULD do something with it on a very specific, gimmicky scale.

Like if we went to Moonshadow, and the seasons progressed throughout the day. So Dawn was Spring, Day was Summer, Dusk was Autumn, and Night was Winter.

But on any other scale, it's really just going to be a lot of work for very little gain.

[pale walrus]

LOLROFLMAO! That would be awesomely hilarious!

[pale walrus]

In a sense, we had seasons in skyrim from the viewpoint that various regions seemed to have their own microclimates. Dawnstar and Winterhold were in the clutches of Winter; Riften was fall; Solitude was Spring and Falkreath was Summer.

[wide garnet]

Wouldn’t that be something to see.

[pale walrus]

Could potentially turn that into a Flamethrower spell....it would have to be animated, though.....

[feral viper]

True, though I'd call those more Biomes rather than Seasons. Even if they are environmentally representative of particular seasonal colours

[nimble pond]

Yea, cause they don't actually change and remain static regardless of how much time passes in-game. And it's not like time itself has to progress, like not really, there can be the illusion it does, but it's more like running in place. Allowing there to be things like seasons and other progressive changes, and their effects mixed within like on the animals, npcs, flora, etc. I like these things in games where I can stand still in one area anywhere and just watch all the occurrences throughout. Like a living video more than a picture that doesn't change. Could also make room for new season specific lore as well. Done right, I think it could be one of the best investments and truly enhance the game world.

[wide garnet]

Flames shooting out of one’s bottom? My best memory of Johny Test!

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/johnny-test-dukey-scared-screaming-screams-gif-24230539

[pale walrus]

Fair enough. What I'm really trying to say is that we don't need seasons to experience them. Especially in HF, we're going to be able to experience a wondrous abundance of biomes and seasons. It's going to be heart-wrenchingly beautiful.

[pale walrus]

Kind of a play on Powdered Toast man.

[wide garnet]

You remembered Ren and Stimpy as well?

[pale walrus]

Not too well. PTM really burned itself into my brain, though.

[nimble pond]

It could have 100 biomes. The problem for me is the world still remains static in a sense. I want a living world I can truly engage within.

[pale walrus]

I hear you. Maybe something can be done. Rain in certain places at random, snow in others, tropical storms on the coast, etc...In other words, maybe there is a step or two that can be taken moving in the direction of pure seasonality without yet implementing the full system (which sounds quite difficult.)

[nimble pond]

Making these large open worlds is what they are all about. They've already started on it too, like I said with the illusion of time passing, like running in place. We already get some occurrences like rain, day and night cycles. While other things like visual age or children npcs growing up are conveniently ignored. So I don't think it's that difficult. It's a matter of choosing the interesting aspects to apply those time-based changes too.

Oh, even better, calendar events like holidays and festivals. I'm sure there would be a fast-option to skip season by season as well.

And it's not simply making cosmetic changes or "biomes." But would affect the world system as well making things actually seasonal. If I'm gonna play for a decade, I don't want a world space that feels like it's stuck on pause button every playthru.

[scenic oak]

Is it just me or anyone else that games for the Xbox are being delayed probably till next gen consoles

[nimble pond]

Nor does it have to be the same boring spring, summer, fall, winter season cycle. People keep forgetting this is a fantasy game world that exists only in the imagination. "Seasons" can mean a lot of things and look very different than spring, summer, fall, winter.

[pale walrus]

The fast option for skipping seasons would be very welcome in that case. I hate winter and would probably want to skip forward after a week or so. 😄

[pale walrus]

Now that is an interesting idea. What did you have in mind?

[nimble pond]

I mean ppl skipped on pokemon to get seasonal pokemon, lol. Wasn't hard.

[pale walrus]

https://tenor.com/view/kirakirakrystal-twitch-streamer-pretty-cute-gif-17937848

[nimble pond]

Anything is a possibile in the realm of imagination lol

But like I keep saying, I don't want seasons just for the sake of seasons. It's about enhancing the game world itself and expanding more interesting aspects that make it feel even more living. Everything we do within the game is in the world itself, so it's what we see the most and imo is the most important part.

[pale walrus]

An idea: during the late summer in HF, a very powerful hurricane blow deeply inland and actually causes massive flooding in the Alik'r. Between the water and winds, an undiscovered ruin is revealed - could be dwemer, could be ayleid, could be nedic. You discover it or are alerted to it and must investigate. What I'm getting at is that weather and seasons might play more than a passive role in the game.

[nimble pond]

That's what I was talking about having different effects and occurences and not just a cosmetic thing.

Truthfully, each province could in fact have it's own unique seasons. They could occur on a suitable time basis, even if it's just three seasons. Meaning you don't have to wait till the end of the in-game calendar year for a specific season, as Nirn's season system could function independently of the calendar and instead on a more magical basis, unlike how ours does in the real world. Nirn could have it's own internal time-based seasonal clock, rather than seasons being dependent on the sun. So you could see a season multiple times a year. Ideally, I think having a seasonal change every 2 weeks in-game time would be interesting. Some seasons may not even have visual change or only affect some parts of an area rather than all of it, or affect wildlife, events, etc.

As for holidays and festivals and calendar based events. If you read the book by Theth-i, there's already an abundant list of such in the Iliac Bay area alone..

[scenic oak]

Es6 I wonder what your role will be even if you don’t have any

[nimble pond]

The exception or anomaly to the rule. From dragonslayer to sweet roll collector or anything in between.

[scenic oak]

Could be the at the beginning a prisoner again but from there who knows I really want to though

[nimble pond]

I'm hoping for maximum security prison break from Alcatraz Island. Locked in with all of Tamriel's most dangerous convicts and corrupt guards. That no one has ever escaped from and even the ones who managed to get outside the fence, didn't last long in the water..

[pale walrus]

For that scenario, you need at least one NPC called Al Capone.... 😉

[half sail]

hello I finally paid for the full elder scrolls franchise bundle (after fixing my credit card shenanigans) and have everything ready to go, i wanted to ask should I play the series in chronological order (preferred method) or should i start with elder scrolls online? I am afraid that if i leave elder scrolls online for a couple of months until I finish the rest of the games, i will come to find out that the servers are no longer supported or something like that. same concerns with fallout franchise.

[feral viper]

It is highly unlikely ESO will be going anywhere for at least a few years. If it does, I suspect the imminent collapse of society would be a bigger concern at that point.

As for playing the games on chronological order... Technically ESO would be first in that regard. Followed by Redguard, Battlespire, Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, Legends, Skyrim.

[forest surge]

ESO is something I recommend playing after the mainline games, as a bunch of what it has is nostalgic and connecting to the mainline games in many ways.

Morrowind Nostalgia is something you’ll feel more playing Morrowind and then Playing the Vvardenfell expansion in ESO

Same with Oblivion and Skyrim

[feral viper]

Agreed. In general, I'd recommend playing in order of release, instead of chronological.

That way, you can experience the gradual improvement of systems and gameplay, rather than jumping around quite as much.

[half sail]

thank you

[pale walrus]

Your PC will be the representative of whatever role you choose in ES6 - remember, it's an RPG. For myself, I intend to dedicate my PC to being a Bringer of Peace to the world. And anyone who resists, I will kill them.

[nimble pond]

It would be interesting to see who are cell mate would be. I wonder who Tamriel's top 10 most notorious felons would be?

[pale walrus]

Let's see....well, among them would be underworld figures. I'd count the Thieve's Guild and the various Assassin guilds as 'crime syndicates.' Their chiefs, if known, will be among that "Most Wanted" clique. Then there will be notorious pirates, actual underworld crime lords involved in racketeering, extortion & smuggling, and the occasional psycho serial killer or mass murderer. The "Most Wanted" list is going to vary per province/tribe - after all, the Morag Tong won't be considered a criminal enterprise in Morrowind; they're an integral part of the political framework. There may be similar organizations in other provinces. Also, a Maormer buccaneer captain might be considered an outlaw in Tamriel, but a folk hero in Pyandonea. Side note: it wouldn't surprise me if at least one of the "Most Wanted" was a Sload, particularly in Western Tamriel.

[cloud hatch]

Okay, so I like that Big Head's schedule has him regularly commit crimes in The Shivering Isles. It's like, the idea of a klepto NPC that steals stuff and accumulates a bounty as you're playing the game interests me.

[nimble pond]

Don't forget cult leaders getting ppl to drink the kool-aid. I agree, I think a Sload would be in the there. A Thalmor, possibly an Akavirian. Anyone who is generally an enemy to all of Tamriel and done multi-province crimes or just particularly bad in a single province. All jammed in one cage and you. Would be kinda funny if had to use each types skillset in order to escape. Like naturally thieves are gonna be better at lockpicking and pickpocket, con artists will be the charmers, etc.

[pale walrus]

Right there you've laid out the basis of an excellent multi-part quest. 🙂

[stuck minnow]

Es6 needs to take tips from the dark souls, the boss fights need more INTENSITY

have a GREAT day everyone

[feral viper]

Eh, I find Boss Fights to be gimmicky and entirely uninteresting, and Dark Souls as just plain not fun.

[wide garnet]

That’s a lot of words to say “I stink at boss fights.”

I like boss fights that are not just challenging, but require some creative problem solving. Remember the giant tentacle monster from the first Half-Life game?

[feral viper]

Sorry Strawman, Dorothy is 3 channels down.

[wide garnet]

Ed, from Ed Edd N Eddy: Table for two!

[feral viper]

I said, I find Boss Fights gimmicky, and uninteresting. And I stand by that.

It doesn't mean I am BAD at them. In fact, given that far and above the most common boss fight mechanics rely on heavy telegraphing, and pattern recognition, I would go so far as to say I'm quite good at them. Dark Souls took me about 55 hours, though I'm sure I didn't get all the extras due to the fact I was bored out of my skull (similar problem with Wild Hunt after 50 hours).

And yes, I remember The Tentacle. And again, didn't really think it was particularly enjoyable. And to date I don't think it's ever even actually killed me. The only ones I can say I've had actually difficulty with, off the top of my head, are Neff from Altered Beast (virtually unbeatable for 7 year old me) the Mirror Clone from Prince of Persia (virtually unbeatable for 5 year old me) and the Vizier from Prince of Persia: Twin Thrones (which after a dozen tries, I took a six month break from the game and then defeated on my first try back).

In over 30 years of gaming, I cannot think of a single boss fight I actually liked. Unless you count pushing Rasier out a window in Quest for Glory II, that was hilarious.

I just don't find Boss Fights interesting, engaging or thoughtful.

Just like I don't find Souls-like games to be fun. Their mistake Challenge with Oppression, and don't offer anything interesting or thought provoking.

Though, I suppose they could have changed. I haven't touched a Souls-like game since Bloodborne, when I finally accepted no amount of validation or promises from randos online that 'You just gotta give it time to click' was going to make me enjoy another full and pointless slog through a boring monster bash with ponderous gameplay and fundamentally unenjoyavle mechanics.

Who knows? Maybe Elden Ring is actually fun. Considering I'm still bored out of my skull watching other people play it, I doubt that though.

[pale walrus]

I also am very anti-boss fight. Encountering some super-opponent in a highly contrived scenario and then, thru trial and error, memorizing the steps I need to take - hide behind this pillar, and on his third attack, dodge right and duck, then shoot him with the shotgun, machine gun and grenade launcher, then get back behind the pillar, etc etc... - and finally killing him actually ruins most games. It's a silly and lazy game feature. One of the joys of ES has been that they don't waste player efforts on such nonsense. For those of you who actually enjoy boss fights, more power to ya. But you'll get more satisfaction out of playing a game like the new Doom titles, or maybe Borderlands.

[forest surge]

I am all for boss fights

[nimble pond]

There is a certain satisfaction when defeating the main protagonist or boss of the story. All the work and effort to even get up to that point to the final battle, knowing all the previous challengers failed to defeat them as this is no normal adversary, despite their ill will, they've risen to the top, survival of the fittest. If it was a simple as using sneak and a bow to one-shot them like a common bandit, well.. not very satisfying and probably no interest to ever do it again. I always admired the underdog struggle to overcome between Cloud and Sephiroth in FF. Even simply earning the privilege of a fight with such a foe is a honor, whether you win or they rip you to oblivion.

[nimble pond]

However, I ain't all about the clicking (x) button at this, time, mash (x) button 8 times angle. Nor boring study movement procedures. Let a boss fight actually be a boss fight. Essentially it's two bosses (you and them) in the ultimate firework display of showdowns.

[pale walrus]

The kind of 'boss fight' I can live with is the showdown with Harkon in Dawnguard, or the final battle with Miraak in Dragonborn. It's fluid, and even if a bit 'staged', you can maneuver freely and bring all your capabilities to bear in the moment. Contrast that with any of the boss fights in Doom - extremely gimmicky and contrived, where you have to figure out 'the script' in order to beat the opponent(s.) I loathe that kind of game architecture. It becomes WORK to move forward in the game, and I have enough of nonsensical rules, counterproductive policies and other silliness at my day job. I don't want to see more of that in my leisure hours.

[nimble pond]

I like it when they clearly have the upper hand and powers you don't see from any other previous enemy. So you are free to use all your weapons, but even then their strength will be quite formidable and not what you are used to. I don't mind having my butt kicked and being thrown around the arena some, as it should be, despite my best efforts before finally achieving the final blow. Because that's how boss battles should be, back and forth struggle between dishing out pain and also taking it. Makes the victory all the sweeter.

[eager remnant]

I am with Terical here: boss fights feel gimmicky to me. Similarly to puzzles, they feel inserted by developers because the developers believe a feature should be inserted, not because the feature is integral to the setting or to the story. The crude artificiality of boss fights take me out of the game world, the story and the character I am roleplaying and reminds me unpleasantly that I am playing a video game.

[pale walrus]

This is exactly what I mean when I talk about a boss fight that I don't like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjSaifHsrkE Words fail me.

[forest surge]

If Boss Fights didn’t exist in Video Games it wouldn’t feel as special tbh

[feral viper]

The games that feel the most special, at least to me, are almost always those without boss fights.

[forest surge]

I just don’t get that is all, Video Games having Boss fights have pretty much been there since the beginning. Boss Fights are pretty much a standard in Video Games.

It’s kinda why if you don’t have Boss fights there will be a lot of disappointed people.

Boss fights symbolize overcoming a challenge, taking what you learned and applying it to a foe who’s clearly on a different level than the standard grunts

Sure a video game doesn’t necessarily need one, but games these days have them for a reason. It’s the Norm, it’s expected of certain franchises.

God of War, Castlevania, Metroid, Dead Space, Legend of Zelda, Resident Evil, Souls, Mario, Sonic, Metal Gear, Yakuza, Various RPG’s out there.

Boss Fights are just what made a lot of games and made moments within a game very special.

[feral viper]

And MOST of those games, I have never liked.

Some I played out of necessity due to the sparse pickings in the 90s, but there's a reason I very quickly gravitated towards Strategy games (including strategy RPGs) Sims and TES early on.

Again, if you like boss fights, that's fine. I do not. I feel they take away far, FAR more than they add, and like Mutually Exclusive Choices, almost always make a game worse with their inclusion.

And as far as TES goes... They've never been much of a component. Harkon and Miraak are really the only 'Boss Fights' the franchise has ever had, at least in terms of how people tend to view boss fights. Everything else has just been a special, named enemy with a bigger health pool.

Adding boss mechanics turns these encounters into gimmicks. Follow the steps, learn the moves, and you beat the game. It shatters the suspension of disbelief, makes the gamey-aspects of the encounter front and centre, and are frankly just boring.

The only way to spice them up is either injecting Stockholm Syndrome into them (Souls-like) or turn them into visual spectacles to distract you from how bland they really are (God of War).

To date, in 30 years of gaming, I cannot think of a single boss fight I have ever experienced, that was fulfilling. None. Across all of gaming.

[forest surge]

That is legit surprising to hear as a gamer

[forest surge]

Oof, rather limited in what you like in video games it seems

[feral viper]

Quite the opposite, I actually think.

But, I've also probably played a lot of games many here haven't heard of, so...

[forest surge]

I mean it’s probably because I started in a place where I didn’t see much value in certain game franchises. It was only in the last 6 Years I’ve started getting into more franchises, a bunch being those I didn’t see much value in.

[feral viper]

I have, over the years, enjoyed everything from ARPG to Farming Sim, JRPG to 4X, RTS to Adventure Puzzle, FPS to Town Manager, and basically everything in between

[forest surge]

I would say Sim games like Sims and Animal Crossing, and Sports games would be the only things I’ve no interest in.

[feral viper]

Sports is about the only genre I almost always exclude. And that's mostly because we haven't had a good Mutant League game in 30 years.

I do play Blood Bowl though.

Probably my strongest pick for WORST boss fights, would be... Well, all of Mass Effect. Saren, the Human Reaper, the Shadow Broker, the Reaper Base... All just rubbish.

The best, would probably be the Dahaka in Prince of Persia: Warrior Within. Less for the fight it's self, and more for the fact you have to earn the confrontation in the first place, unlocking all the health upgrades to access the Water Sword to even be allowed to fight the thing that's been chasing you all game. And then the fight its self is pretty eh.

[nimble pond]

If you don't like the boss fights, then don't do them. Ppl do plsythrus that don't even involve bosses anyway so idk what the making a big deal out of it is. Boss fights have been around forever, and I agree there is a certain satisfaction when defeating one. Turning bosses into a fight like any other common bandit is a terrible and boring idea even in a BGS game. Might as well make a mudcrab the final boss that you can beat with a butter knife at that rate..

[clever falcon]

Playing a bunch of (modded) Skyrim lately, cause of the bard expansion. I really do hope tes 6 leans more into the classic TTRPG Adjacent experience of Morrowind and Daggerfall. More interactive mechanics for traversal and puzzle solving, proper dungeon crawling with more sprawling maze like dungeon layouts and high enemy variety

[feral viper]

I mean, sure... But if a story, dungeon or questline ends in a boss fight, just saying 'Dont do it' kinda misses the point.

[nimble pond]

Ppl think I'm joking, but there is literally a mudcrab boss in the skyrim cut content video. After looking at both cut content videos of skyrim and starfield, I do see there has been expressed interest in seasons, expanded weather interaction, as well as expanded underwater exploration.

There's nothing wrong with boss fights. I mean let's just say we remove Alduin from the game entirely, what purpose does LDB have now? What you're shooting at is how some other games do them as there are many different approaches to implementing boss fights. But the idea of taking bosses out of games is.. I don't want to sound condescending, so I will just politely say, strongly disagree.

[feral viper]

Not cut content, but from the Game Jam video. But yeah, it was something someone did. Along with physics enabled weapons (like flails) Spears, moving platforms, and actually dark environments.

These weren't cut (provided we assume Bethesda wasn't outright lying to us) but rather were done in the week following release as a fun activity for the devs.

Now, I think some of that stuff (which also included physics enabled trees, and seasons) was able to be done in a week of down time following release is also not a great look for Bethesda given the finished product of their games, but... Still not cut content.

As for Alduin... Honestly? Nothing would change. Because he isn't a 'Boss'. Alduin is a generic Dragon fight with a bigger health pool. Just like Mankar Camroan is just another mage with a bigger health pool, of Dagoth Ur is just another Ash Vampire with a bigger health pool.

They're not exactly good fights (mostly because combat in TES is pretty rubbish and the most outdated gameplay system in the franchise) but they also aren't really Boss Fights.

As least in so far as I define a Boss Fight.

The lack of special mechanics, behaviours, criteria or specific mechanics disqualifies it as being a Boss Fight for me. It's just another dragon.

[feral viper]

Unrelated, based on the fact that it installed on my phone automatically, Castles appears to be out on Android.

[nimble pond]

Ideas that didn't make it into the official product. Some were used, some were not.
I was actually surprised to see flails in Daggerfall.
It would vastly change the story as well as remove a center protagonist from the game, virtually making LDB irrelevant and frankly pointless. But that's not the argument, these are all still boss fights. Y'all are talking about the mechanics of some other boss fights like cinematic mass the (x) button for example.

Now then, moving on from that topic as it's long-drawn out enough into repetitive drivel.

How do you like Castles?

[spare anchor]

It's up for preload
https://fxtwitter.com/BethesdaStudios/status/1824098856260235507

[feral viper]

Huh, interesting. I've... Been playing it for the last hour since I got off work.

Wonder if that's because I was in the beta as well...

[feral viper]

I quite enjoyed the beta. Some nitpicks, but I like mindless idle mobile games.

[nimble pond]

How many skins do they have? I know they got Breton and Redguard themes. Just curious if they'll add more or keep it specifically to those two. I'd have fun with an Argonian castle, if such a thing is even possible. But at least they started with those two thus far

[feral viper]

So far seems to just be the 2.

[marble crypt]

Looks solid

[weak tree]

Anyone playing the GOG version of Skyrim AE? I have issues playing that with a controller, the inputs are way too quick. Can anyone help?

[uneven surge]

You mean high sensitivity, like your camera moves way too fast?

[weak tree]

It's an issue in the menus, just a light touch of the dad or stick and you skip entries

[uneven surge]

Is it your first time playing with controller, or it appeared out of sudden?

[weak tree]

First time, bought the game two or three days ago, installed it, today wanted to play it, but the issue kinda bugged me a lot

[uneven surge]

Probably an issue with dead zone settings

[weak tree]

Just so you know I don't have this issue with the steam version

[weak tree]

How do I solve that?

[uneven surge]

You can try to add the GOG game into Steam, by clicking on + on lower left in steam library, press "Add third party game" and choose GOG version of Skyrim

That way, Steam will apply its settings on your controller

[weak tree]

That worked, but wanted to avoid that if possible

[uneven surge]

In that case, the only option is third party software

What kind of controller do you have? Dualsense, Xbox?

[weak tree]

XBox 360 (not an og one tho)

[uneven surge]

You will need x360ce for that

Also, check what version your xinput file has in skyrim directory

It'll probably be right in file's name

[weak tree]

Think I'll need a tutorial for that

[uneven surge]

Let's switch to DM to not pollute the chat, ok?

[stuck minnow]

Will eso every catch up to the mainline series ?, cant wait

[pale walrus]

Why?

[eager remnant]

No. Time does not move forward in ESO. The base game and all DLC take place in 2E 582.

[stuck minnow]

Thx 🙂

[hearty otter]

Did an Elder Scroll game just come out and I did not know? What is Castles all about?

[pale walrus]

Ya know, this raises a question. ESO and each individual ES title concern themselves with momentous (and even world-shattering) events. One would think that the nations and tribes of Tamriel would be deeply moved by such events and gain perspective from them. After all, their own external and internal squabbles are quite trivial compared to things like the Oblivion crisis or the return of Alduin. After both WW1 and WW2, big things happened at a global level, including the League of Nations, the UN, the Warsaw Pact, NATO, SEATO and quite a few other multinational alliances & agreements covering diplomatic relations, military pacts, trade agreements and so forth. Tamriel's events are actually much bigger than these already awesome events, and yet the tribes remain unphased, continuing to pursue their policies, objectives and petty ambitions. Perhaps it's a world mired in fatalism.

[feral viper]

Mobile game, similar to Fallout Shelter.

[hearty otter]

Ahhh, that explains it - nevermind, my interest in that game just vanished as soon as I saw the words "mobile game", then

Mobile games in general just doesn't appeal to me at all

So yeah thanks for the explanation, Terical

[feral viper]

In the context of classical philosophy, it would explicitly BE fatalism due to the pluralistic nature of outcomes invalidating free will. Since all outcomes occur in a multiverse, all choices are exercised. Therefore, there ARE no choices.

So, the nature of the setting is, quite literally, Fatalistic.

[forest surge]

We already talked about this, there has always been back and forth on whether that is true or not regarding Free Will.

[feral viper]

As laid out by the evidence, it's pretty clear. Regardless of the intent. And intent is irrelevant.

Still, I suspect @pale walrus meant more Nihilistic, rather than Fatalistic. Though even that is something of a nebulous application of Nihilism.

[forest surge]

Point is, neither is right or wrong in that instance regarding the IRL Answer

[feral viper]

Ultimately, it's a deeper lore problem and at this point the lore IS a problem, so it's neither here nor there for me.

ESO has a wider conceptual problem, suffering from the same issue as FF14 but for an entirely different reason. Whereas FF14 doesn't progress it's timeline because it doesn't want to deal with any characters aging (from ARR to Endwalker is a single year)...

ESO doesn't want to impose a sequence of events on players which may compromise their sense of character freedom.

Both of these are bad writing decisions, resulting in problematic fuzzyness of character interactions, rampant scaling issues, continuity problems, etc.

Where ESO has the advantage over FF14 however, is the fact it's already set during an establish period of strife and, more importantly, poor historicity. The lack of reliable records from that period, in the 'current' Era, means that it's problems don't have to have lasting consequences.

Chock it up to conflicting records, mythopoea, or just ignore it completely. The works already been done for that.

If you push it towards a period with more stringent historical standards, however, that advantage goes away.

Which is a long winded way of saying, it will almost certainly NEVER make it to the 3rd Era, let alone the 4th.

[glass marlin]

Makes me wonder if Skyrim ends the 4th and moves to the 5th or if ES6 still remains in the 4th era.

[hidden herald]

There is an implication that ||the order of events that a Prisoner goes through might not be set to linear time, or at least that the order is not linear when it happens initially, and Mnem has to fix it each time/untime.||

[pale walrus]

It would be nice to stay in the 4th era and not switch to the 5th until something genuinely monumental happens - like Yokuda resurfacing or something.

[night violet]

Think there is any chance the big bad guy of TES VI is the celestial Serpent? He's already tried to devour Craglorn once in ESO. Maybe he comes back in the new game?

[pale walrus]

If they do, they need to explain who/what he is a lot better than they currently do in lore. The current explanation is just noise.

[feral viper]

I mean... Alduin says otherwise.

Is he the World Eater? A manifestation of the end of time? Just a big meanie dragon who wants to be Da Boss?

Who knows! Because Bethesda couldn't actually relay his motivations and goals in the whole game.

[nimble pond]

Does everything really need a reason? The second something doesn't make sense ppl tend to lose their minds. It's kinda funny tho

[glacial aspen]

I’m hoping TES VI is Hammerfell and all of High Rock too but I wonder if BGS has ever considered doing an entire province as an expansion

[rose pagoda]

Im hoping they don’t use procedural generation at all would love a boat though.

[eager remnant]

It all depends how procedural generation is used. My understanding is that Fallout 76's West Virginia landscape was procedurally generated and it is my second-favorite BGS landscape (after Morrowind's Vvardenfell). And, although it's not my favorite, I know many people who adore Cyrodiil's landscape in Oblivion which was also procedurally generated.

[rose pagoda]

I meant more of how starfield went with its planets and repetition. I agree if done right it can be done right though lol

[pale walrus]

I suspect that any use of proc gen in ES6 won't 'matter.' What I mean is that there's going to be a great deal of custom/individual work in every 'tile.' Proc Gen might 'fill in' certain areas such as a lawn or piece of forest, but I sincerely doubt that anything about the landscape will seem boringly repetitive. My gut tells me they're going to make a game that is, in terms of landscape, quite beautiful.

[bright hinge]

Is the elder scrolls online even good?

It’s on sale on steam and I’m unsure if it’s worth it or not

[eager remnant]

"Good" is subjective. Speaking for myself, Elder Scrolls Online is my third-favorite Elder Scrolls game (right behind Morrowind and Skyrim).

[feral viper]

It is very much DIFFERENT. And if you're expecting a more standard TES experience, it's not what you're looking for.

It is a solid MMO, mechanically, and the best addition to the lore and setting since Morrowind, however.

[feral viper]

Flers–Courcelette showed the way
Evolution leading to
El-Alamein until today
We're the first ones into the fray

https://tenor.com/view/totalwar-empire-steamtank-tank-warhammer-gif-19292355

[nimble pond]

I could do that for hours, never gets old

[feral viper]

TES needs more Steam-Tech. And not from the Dwemer.

[nimble pond]

What race or group/guild do you suppose would adopt their tech and come up with their own way?

[feral viper]

Bretons.

In general, Bretons are the most innovative and adaptable

[nimble pond]

Still, I always imagined a Dwarven spider the size of a Halo Scarab with a evaporating beam just for fun.

[feral viper]

Lol

[wide garnet]

I’m sharing something about My Dragonborn from Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction that I’ve been thinking about for a while:

Because Dovah are several degrees more powerful than ordinary spirits/demons, they can easily “reshape” (for lack of a better term) spirits to serve their purposes. But the Dovah “lost” this ability when the ancient elves “cast their seal to hold back the sky” (which prevented them from using the Thu’um to “blot out the sky and flood the land”, etc.).

However, the opening of the Breach has weakened that original seal by a quarter, and the Dovah are, slowly but surely regaining their original powers. But since Matthias is a Dragonborn (and thus both Dov and Joor), he can do similar things faster and more precise due to “Fin Yolos ko joor sille”, as the Dovah call it.

He is even able to turn a pacifistic wisdom spirit into the equivalent of Trinity from The Matrix, who then proceeds to kick an entire platoon of Thalmor to kingdom come in a similar way, due to what she calls “Onikaan do Dovahkiin”.

[feral viper]

Seems like a solid enough justification..

[feral viper]

More generally, if I were to create steam-tanks in TES, it wouldn't be one race or organization that would do it. It would be a joint effort combining the strengths of multiple cultural traditions.

Redguard gunnery.
Breton Ingenuity.
Orcish metalworking.
Imperial military discipline.

[hidden herald]

Only other options are probably Bretons or Clockwork Apostles, really

[feral viper]

For lazy writers stuck in Medieval stasis, sure.

[forest surge]

Just no Guns

[feral viper]

Generally, you Cannon before you Gun.

[forest surge]

But can you Gun before you Cannon? XD

[forest surge]

I do miss talking TES Lore with you, only because Gold Road revealed A Nord with help of Animal Spirits known as the Luminaries is responsible for creating Scribing, which I thought would be a cool W for Nords.

[feral viper]

TECHNICALLY, you Gonne before you Cannon. And then you Cannon before you Gun.

[feral viper]

But, I may come back to lore at some point. If there's a major shakeup in writing standards

As for guns, as I've said before, I'm not against them in this, or really any setting. The issue is more integration and gameplay balance.

[pale walrus]

Firearms and artillery would be a difficult weapon category to balance in ES. It would have a tremendous impact on fortifications, as well as the utility and styles of weapons and armor. It would require a great deal of thought in the implementation - you want to introduce these capabilities in such a manner that it's fun for the player but doesn't negatively disrupt various other aspects of the game. Even putting cannons on naval vessels is a serious matter. All in all, developing the proper balance in the context of a typical ES title will be an arduous task.

[livid ingot]

Disagree here. Player would never use cannons - they're just props. Players don't attack fortifications either. That just leaves hand weapons and at that point you're just using reskinned crossbows and staves

Bigger issues would only arise if you dramatically retool the combat system

We'd only be talking very primitive firearms anyway, to ensure they fit the quasi-medieval setting

Not like people will be using muskets or six-shooters

It'll be more fire lances and hand cannons and the like

[pale walrus]

OK, so you're thinking about something much smaller scale. What would the tradeoffs be between the bow, crossbow and hand cannon? Range versus damage?

[feral viper]

High damage, low rate of fire.

[livid ingot]

Going off something similar to the current combat system, I would do something like:
Bows fire faster, bows are lighter, average lowest damage in a single shot
Crossbows average between the two, can be fired from a stealthed position.
Gunpowder weapons fire slowest, are the heaviest, do the most damage in a single shot. Can't fire from a stealthy position.

[feral viper]

A firearm, at least the kind we're talking about, would have an incredibly cumbersome reload time which would make more of an Alpha Strike weapon. You use it once, and if it doesn't end the encounter right there, you swap to something else.

[livid ingot]

Maybe gunpowder weapons wouldn't rely much on your skill either, so warriors and the like can use them as a ranged option. I dunno

[feral viper]

Not that I'd DO that (ok, well, I absolutely would) but it's more an example of how you can balance them in game.

All too often, franchises just... Ignore centuries of firearm development and either don't have ANYTHING, or just skip right to Muskets. And that's cutting out all the neat early experimental stuff.

Like, imagine if firearms are a one-use item, like a Scroll. Metallurgy hasn't entirely figured them out yet, and the casings crack after being used once, but the potential to stop a troll dead in its tracks is enough to make them at least semi popular.

I mean, hell... In the real world, the earliest firearms were literally made of Bamboo, and we're single use.

They were strapped to Spears to serve as something of a one-use shotgun. Leaving you with a point stick after you'd gotten your single shot off.

Literally starting them off as special Alchemical divides you apply to polearms to deliver a massive first hit could be an option.

Though I feel like that's wasting the potential of the Redguard in regards to firearms...

[hidden herald]

The thing about fantasy is... it's fantasy, not real life

A significant portion of people have difficulty separating it and conceiving that things can develop differently that in real life

[pale walrus]

https://tenor.com/view/star-trek-star-trek-tos-gorn-lizard-turn-gif-16987737

[reef lotus]

where's pvp chat?

[livid ingot]

No Elder Scrolls Online chat here, this is for the single-player games

Zenimax Online has official forums, and I know there are a few discord servers that focus on TES:O but they're not official

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en

[feral viper]

Oh, absolutely. Though most fantasy also doesn't logically follow its own in universe mechanisms to develop in a reasonable way.

Magic, in particular, is frequently ignored in terms of social, technological and industrial development in fantasy settings..

Most are stuck in Medieval stasis and don't progress AT ALL.

Nevermind that they shouldn't have developed similar to our world's medieval period anyway.

[feral viper]

You could still more than reasonable just... Unwrite basically all of the mythology of the setting as well. Our world went through the same thing, with most of our myths and worldviews crumbling under the superiority of Science.

Could turn out the Tamriel is 3 billion years old, and all the creation stories are false.

On top of that, theres the fact that humans are incredibly bad at predicting development trends.

So ultimately, all we have is the real world as inspiration.

[livid ingot]

Exactly. In a lot of ways Tamriel ignores magic is a thing in its world building. I appreciate that Tamriel doesn't have to develop like the real world, but it already ignores important details that would make a significant difference on its development and history. So those are the grounds on which I'd argue that gunpowder and other incendiary weapons have a place in its setting.

Now if the consequences of magic were more seriously considered in the world building of TES, then yeah I think firearm development might be a entirely superfluous development that might never happen

[wide garnet]

I’ve got something funny from my Dragon Age: The Lost Scrolls fanfiction that I’d like to share:

One of the ways that the Thalmor have the, metaphorical, edge is their mastery of magic, but the Inquisition has Templars that can use Lyrium to counteract magic. Not only that, they’re thoroughly befuddled and bamboozled when they encounter such abilities.

And here’s the funny part: a mage-general of the Thalmor, a veteran of the Great War, was killed by a low-ranking Templar of the Inquisition because he underestimated his ability to counteract magic. How about that?

[feral viper]

I think, like anything, it would be highly situational.

If you had a culture that was highly adverse to Magic for social reasons, or a race that was heavily magically impaired, they would serve as the most logical grounds for developing that sort of technology.

In the former, we absolutely do see that in the setting, with the Redguard.

Who, conveniently, also draw inspirations from the Japanese Samurai Clans, the Ottoman Empire, and the Age of Sail. And guess what was a prominent feature of all three?

On the flip side, you can look at Warhammer Fantasy as an example. It's a far more magical world than TES, and yet they still have gunpowder. Why?

Because the Dawi developed it. While (mostly) unable to use magic themselves, they developed other methods of matching it. I believe Valaya was the one who invented it to help clear tunnels in the building of the first Karaks, but it was her son Snorri who first used it in warfare. Apparently, resistance to mundane weapons or no, even a Greater Daemon struggles to shrug off a cannon ball to the chest.

Humans in the setting never had to develop black powder at all. They were GIVEN it through their alliance with the Dawi.

Well... Except for maybe Cathay... It's not clear where they got it, if they picked it up through caravans with the west, developed it on their own, or if it was invented by the Dragons and given to their human subjects...

[pale walrus]

Let's break this down. What's the advantage of gunpowder weapons? Off the top of my head, one of them is that they give you the ability to fight beyond the limits of your own muscle and sinew. Whether you're swinging an axe or drawing a bow, the limiting factor to how well you employ the weapon is your own physique. With a 'hand cannon', all that matters is the steadiness of your aim. Gunpowder also gives you range, even beyond that of a bow, as well as a flatter trajectory. Finally, gunpowder weapons can deliver a mass effect - you can attack multiple targets simultaneously with a machine gun or an artillery piece. But having a world where magic exists eliminates the urgency of developing and deploying gunpowder weapons. Think about it - whisper a few strange-sounding words and a lightning bolt or ball of fire launches from your fingertips, either to strike an individual target or affect a group of them, depending on the spell. In such a world, gunpowder could still be discovered, but would just be a curiosity to anyone other than a group of people for whom magic is either anathema or unexploitable. This does raise the question of why the Dwemer never developed gunpowder weapons. They were accustomed to working with materials to harness steam power, deploy airships and create metals that never seemed to tarnish or wear out. The tonal magic they employed didn't seem to have any features that would lend themselves to ranged and/or mass effect weaponry. Gunpowder would have served them well to counter dunmer magic and the nord thu'um.

[feral viper]

There are a lot of potential benefits for gunpowder in a setting with magic. Though it does depends on how accessible magic is. If magic is super accessible, then the drive to develop alternatives isn't as strong.

As for the Dwemer... Well... They may have. Satchel Packs were used to excavation, and are found in Morrowind. And ESO has Dwemer Automata equipped with an Arquebus.

However, these Arquebus are not firearms, as far as we can tell, but rather magical lightning cannons.

Which is I think the crux of it. The Dwemer didn't use Steam and Tech instead of Magic. Their Steam and Tech is POWERED by magic.

The Dwemer were a fundamentally magical civilisation.

They simply actually followed good worldbuilding, and applied the inherent magical setting to their development.

Rather than everyone else, who makes almost no holistic use of Magic and treats it as an entirely seperate thing from 'reality'.

Again though, the issue is less... How to work firearms into the setting. That's relatively easy.

The issue is more working them into the GAME. Because they come with a fundamentally different gameplay perspective that is very difficult to work around.

[feral viper]

And part of that problem stems from how people tend to play games, especially RPGs.

An unfortunate Gygaxism is that people view their character as monotyped and using a singular type of weapon. Despite the fact that such an approach is just nonsensical if you think about it for more than half a second.

[pale walrus]

Gygaxism - pertaining to Gary Gygax, the original inventor of D&D.

https://tenor.com/view/pretty-cool-ttthefineprinttt-i'm-blown-away-gif-6510554902493284002

[feral viper]

There are a lot of Gygaxisms that still plague the genre.

[feral viper]

Classes, Monotyped Equipment, Light-Medium-Heavy Armour, Race...

Gygax largely got the ball rolling for RPGs as a developing genre, but man... Was he bad at designing them.

He crawled, so we could fly though.

[nimble pond]

I ain't really worried about it, but to offer up an idea. If want gunpowder and gunlike weaponry. Could simply come out with a multi-purpose crossbow. Shoots bolts and also has a built-in gunpowder chamber below inside for shooting other projectiles.

Other than that I don't see the point of guns when magic fireballs are literally flinging around every corner.

That or simply have a specific mechanic where they can only be used on. For example, guns only being accessible during naval ship-to-ship battles.

[feral viper]

Yeah, and that's part of the wider mechanical consideration.

You can relatively easily explain firearms in... Well, basically any setting. We've had gunpowder for at LEAST 1100 years, possibly closer to 2000. So any medieval fantasy setting making use of some variation of Alchemy could justify it.

The issue is more mechanical. How do you work it into the game? What is it in relation to? How do you balance it? Etc.

And in that regard, you still have an extensive list of options. Single use explosives for Alchemy. Firelances on Polearms. Handgonnes as the heaviest hitting ranged weapons. Cannons for ship combat. Etc.

Or, do you limit their presence entirely to set piece narrative moments, like a siege, and make them part of the world and less relevant to the direct gameplay? You know, like SPEARS grumble.

Pertaining to that, I would not encourage firearms outright. You need to build up to that.

Spend a game exploring the development of the technology. For instance, having the Redguard reinvigorate their ancient gunnery traditions as a countermeasure against Dominion magic. Except, they use massive brass cannon, instead of handheld weapons. So they're just a narrative element for that game.

Then, in the NEXT game, you can expand that into a mechanical idea.

Generally though, Combat is in too bad a place to waste time on guns, when everything else needs work.

[nimble pond]

Now picture this. Medival magical mounted naval artillery cannon with multiple barrels rapid-firing fireballs, or ice spears, or thunderbolts, (maybe all three simultaneously, whatever), upon other ships. Hahahaha
Is it mage or is it machine? 😳

[feral viper]

That gives me Spelljammer vibes.

And I love it.

But Spelljammers is also one of the best things to ever come out of DnD, so...

[nimble pond]

It makes me wonder. I know I've seen basic inland ships and trader ships inland, none of which is really combat ready. But out on the open seas surrounding Tamriel.. I wonder if they got ships out there the equivalent to something like, an iowa-class battleship, but stacked like a man o' war, yk ready to obliterate anything.

[feral viper]

We know very little about naval warfare in Tamriel. Given the general lack of... Well, useful large scale ranged weaponry, I can only assume that it's largely driven by boarding actions.

[forest surge]

Well Battle Mages are also used when available, not simply standard ship weaponry.

[feral viper]

Based on what we know about fire magic, it wouldn't be particularly reliable. Frost would probably be the most useful, but it's also going to be dangerous to work around.

Unless Tamrielic ships are absolutely loaded with oil.

Fire in general is really... Unreliable in naval warfare. Unless you're using gunpowder, or can somehow get it to stick, it's pretty easy to put out surface fires, making most fire magic not particularly viable.

[pale walrus]

Hang on - before cannon, naval warfare involved catapults, archers, boarding bridges, ramming and even Greek Fire. The catapults were best used to drive an 'anchor' into an enemy ship in order to pull it closer so that naval infantry could board it. The Greek Fire was, of course, a bit tricky to use, but once deployed, there was no way for the enemy vessel to extinguish the flame, as greek fire is not quenched by water (it can actually spread the flame.)

Unless Tamriel's navies use cannon, their naval battles likely consist of attempts to turn the encounters into land battles as quickly as possible - hence, archer duels, grapples of one sort or another (including onagers and ramming attempts), and hand to hand combat between marines trying to take the enemy's ship. Mages should also be on board, both to fire magical range attacks as well as to counter any received impacts and, potentially, to quench fires magically before they get out of hand. All in all, naval combat could be very interesting even without broadsides of cannon fire.

And since we are talking about conflict - I might enjoy seeing direct struggles between the deities occur again. There are many smoldering resentments and rivalries simmering between them; let's see some of them play out. For instance: Akatosh slew Lorkhan after the formation of Mundus, but his justification can be questioned. After all, were the Aedra truly all tricked by Lorkhan? Also, some daedra participated as well, and Magnus was clearly a central figure in Nirn's creation. Boethiah has openly disapproved of what was done to Lorkhan. It would be interesting if Lorkhan got either some level of payback, or if he was at least partially rehabilitated.

There's other 'running arguments' that could be fun to settle as well, or at least revisit for a 'round 2.' Molag Bal vs Mehrunes Dagon or Boethiah; Malacath vs Boethiah and, I suppose, Mephala; and so forth.

[scenic oak]

Is getting elder scrolls 6 even worth it to play on next gen consoles

[forest surge]

I mean looking at the advancements made in Starfield regarding vehicles and such, it just might be.

[nimble pond]

I mean, I don't mean to step on any toes, but it sounds like the same type of combat on land, only taking place on a ship instead.
Now unleashing sea magic upon them, could prove interesting.

[nimble pond]

You would think they'd have something by now.. I mean I believe it would particularly useful being able to tactically strike sea towns or possibly even more inland, depending on the projectile range, while remaining a safe distance away. It's not like any mage is gonna hurl some nuclear warhead like magic from hundreds or thousands miles away. Thalmor would have already 'glassed' Tamriel by now if they did.
But I guess the game's development just hasn't gotten to that point of having large scale naval ranged weaponry.

[scenic oak]

I’m not even gonna get fallout 5 so why buy a new system

[feral viper]

Because that is the reality of gaming. You always need to upgrade, eventually.

[feral viper]

Yeah. It's... Probably dominated by boarding actions, and this relying on the same sort of magical and martial prowess as normal confrontations across Tamriel.

[scenic oak]

Yeah I know but with the games coming out in 2025 will it even have time for DLC

[feral viper]

What makes you think it's coming in 2025?

[scenic oak]

Not the system the games dlc

[feral viper]

I mean the games. We have literally no information on the release window for TES6 or Fallout5.

[nimble pond]

Honestly, if only close combat, I'd probably just go for grapple-and-toss over the ship simply for the humor factor of watching them go flailing into the depths below.
It's too bad we can't load them in a cannon and blast them off like a looney toon.

[feral viper]

The strategic and tactical uses of magic are rarely explored in fantasy, especially on naval warfare.

A fireball, for instance, is unreliable at range against a ship. Even sails are constantly damp, and don't catch fire particularly easily. At the same time, they're incredibly dangerous up close. To BOTH sides. And boarding actions tend to be rather congested affairs.

So Mages may actually be more of a liability on ship, than a benefit in naval warfare

[nimble pond]

Valid.
Note though 'defensive' magic could be viable. Yk, like oakflesh cast around the ship or something.
Sea magic using the surrounding sea, like your some sort of Triton, could be one of the more suitable offensive magic.

[feral viper]

Indeed. There's a lot of potential to explore. But... It would require more brain power than I currently have available.

[nimble pond]

Now that I think about, I think sea magic is literally what the Maormer already do, so yeah, it's there. Maybe game creators are deliberately locking sea/water magic till Maormer actually become a 'playable' race or somewhat more existent in a mainline TES title.

[feral viper]

Don't remind me of my poor Maormer... First disappointment of ESO.

[pale walrus]

Agreed. The Maormer specialize in Sea Magic; seeing some of that could be very interesting. Oh, and the land combat - sea combat thing: you can see it historically. Think of Actium or, before that, Salamis. The Romans became masters of this. The 'breaking point' occurred, as far as I can tell, at Lepanto, about a millenium after the the western Roman empire ended. The Holy League navy with their rotating cannon galleys really did a number on the Ottoman Turks, who were relying on their archer contingents.

[feral viper]

Where my bug-ships at, ZoS? Hmm? HMMM?!

[nimble pond]

Plus there are usually "spell trainers" and I haven't really seen anyone in Tamriel teaching water/sea magic sadly.. 😪 Maybe I missed them or something, hopefully

[pale walrus]

Let me think out loud for a moment....let's see........who would be especially interested in sea magic? Obviously the Maormer. The Altmer, too, in order to counter the Maormer. The Sload must have SOMETHING in order to counter their undersea semi-civilized foes and to attack the Altmer - they have to rely on magic because the Sload simply aren't built to be warriors. And then the Redguard and Imperials, reacting to the Altmer. But I would bet the ones who are the best at it include the Maormer and Altmer. Getting training in sea magic would be tricky; neither of them is going to be particularly amenable to revealing such a powerful discipline to any but their own.

[nimble pond]

I'd really like to see and speak with the more intelligent sea and deep-sea dwelling creatures. Learn their secrets and knowledge. Especially after speaking with the dragons.

[pale walrus]

Agreed. It would be more interesting to interact with them instead of just treating them like monsters (such as the dreugh in ES4.)

[nimble pond]

Well, it could work in a sense where "some" of it is known, and teachable, so we actually get to play with it for once.
Leave the really powerful spells in lore among the maormer themselves since they are basically the dukes of sea/water magic. Least till we get somewhere in storyline where we get to learn such power and more interaction with the maormer.

[nimble pond]

Since there's thieves guild, should counterfeiting be a schtick? Trying to pass off fake septims to shop keepers. Ripping off buyers with fake items while raking in their money.

[nimble pond]

In a way, I kinda wished the night and day were vastly different in the fantasy of Tamriel. Not simply just a difference of light and dark, but like two completely, vastly different worlds within one is more what I was aiming for. Like a strong contrast between Anu & Padomay.

[feral viper]

I mean, that's. A general rule for ANY intelligent creatures.

[pale walrus]

That could be an involved set of quests - breaking into an imperial mint to copy their coin stamping die, then reproducing them and going into the counterfeiting business. You'd have to make the counterfeits convincing by weight, color, lustre and appearance. My guess is that you'd need to get tungsten. You could create tungsten slugs and then wrap them in a skin of gold, then stamp them so they look the part.

The whole thieve's guild needs a revamp, now that you mention this counterfeiting idea. Up to now, all they've done is breaking and entering, followed by moving the swag. They need to become a bona fide criminal enterprise - an actual underground syndicate. There needs to be smuggling, trafficking in contraband, narcotics distribution, extortion, bank heists, bribery of public officials, and the occasional contracted hit, probably farmed out to the Dark Brohood.

[feral viper]

Indeed. The Thieves Guild is kind of a mess, and confused. In large part to the nonsense of Oblivion, and it's silly efforts to practically Disneyfy everything.

You're the THIEVES GUILD. If you want to be a good guy, go somewhere else.

At least the Dark Brotherhood had the guts to at least pretend to be 'evil'. Even if it was comically over the top to the point of unintentional satire.

[pale walrus]

I think the DB also needs some extensive redevelopment. Maybe just turn it into a subsidiary of the Thieves Guild mafia - an ES version of Murder Inc. Maybe the recruitment and training should be more explicitly formalized as well.

[feral viper]

The less I go into the nitty gritty of the Dark Brotherhood, the better.

It's the same sort of nonsense as Harry Potter and murder fracturing your soul. Like... What does that even mean? Does that mean every Death Eater had broken up souls? What happens to the soul parts if you DON'T make a horcrux? Did you think this plot point out for more than 30 seconds?

But that gets into much wider scale writing topics that tend to be very divisive on the basis of the fact that something that someone enjoys, is not necessarily well done, but am individual's ability to tell between Enjoyment and actual Quality is heavily dictated by the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[nimble pond]

If they were to separate the thieves guild into 3 competing thieve groups, like mafia families, instead of just one big group. Then I could go for that.

[forest surge]

I mean they all operate differently. Thieves Guilds are Thieves and can be whatever type of Thieves they want to be

[forest surge]

I still disagree with this as Thieves come in many shapes and forms. We can’t just assume all Thieves Operate the same.

I mean there is a reason Robin Hood like Thieves exist and it has nothing to do with Disney esque aspects.

[nimble pond]

Which is why I think separating them into different families would be suitable. You can pick which family suits you as a thief.

[forest surge]

Some Thieves have Moral Codes.

[pale walrus]

But the TG is currently rather bland. It would be great if they were 'spicier.' Think about it - as far as criminal syndicates go, there's many different kinds. The Vory, the Mafia, the Tong, the Yakuza...there are some similarities between them, but also very important differences. Also: just moving swag is silly. They need to be able to do much more - they're criminals, after all.

[forest surge]

Again, the Thieves Guild of the Imperial City are there own Guild with their own Morals.

The Riften Thieves Guild has less of that as they extort normal hardworking people.

They don’t have to necessarily be on the same level

Thieves are all different in many ways, the idea of the one existing in the Imperial City is in fact a more Noble Thieves Guild and that is okay to have.

[pale walrus]

Would the crime families compete or cooperate? Or maybe a little of both?

[nimble pond]

All under the same thievery umbrella, but still compete. Business is business. But I can see temporary allied jobs happening. Enemy of my enemy sort of thing. Before stabbing them in the back afterwards. That's the criminal life. And each family could "specialize in it's own thing. Smuggling, pirating, etc.

[forest surge]

Idk maybe it just irks me that “Your Thieves, you can’t be a good guy.” Is just utter nonsense and shows some people cannot look beyond their own idea of a Thief.

[nimble pond]

Like the "good" thief family would probably be hated by the rest of the families.

[forest surge]

Sorry, nothing Personal Terical, it’s just I never understood this take.

[forest surge]

More like seen as soft

But they use the Poor to their advantage

[feral viper]

Which is true, but then... Don't call it the Thieves Guild. A name directly attributed to pre-industrial criminal organizations that function more like the Mafia.

You might as well call something the Fighters Guild, and make all its activities about pacifism and peaceful negotiation.

If you're going to have a Thieves Guild, make it a THIEVES GUILD. If you want Robin Hood helping the downtrodden, call it something else.

[feral viper]

Skyrim at least gets this better, with the Thieves Guild being a mix of people with different goals, backgrounds and moral compasses.

But Oblivion is, in general, tonally... I don't want to say Inconsistent, because it's extremely consistent in it's weirdly childish-pretending-to-be-grownup way, it's just... Not tonally coherent, I guess. And that's not just a narrative and worldbuilding problem, it also a musical, artistic and game design problem that has always plagued the title..

[nimble pond]

For the Dark Brotherhood, I think it's simply they are trying to be too many things all at once. Just let them be the 'satanic' cult they're supposed to be and focus on that.

[feral viper]

Well, also the plot holes, flat characters, terrible tone, and art direction that looks at The Crow (1994) and goes 'Naw man, that's not enough Edge'.

[pale walrus]

The Robin Hood story is a singular circumstance. The tale is really not about an organized group of thieves so much as a story of class conflict and a guerilla war against despotism. Nonetheless, one could easily imagine a thieve's guild quest along these lines, and it could be great fun. However, a Thieve's Guild really ought to be fundamentally an underworld crime syndicate. It could operate very discreetly and function as an almost accepted part of society like the Yakuza - an escape valve of sorts for societal problems. It might be an organization like the Five Families of NYC who, back in the 1940s, actually assisted federal authorities in capturing german agents who attempted to infiltrate America to execute acts of sabotage but which otherwise was extremely hostile to the authorities. And it could operate as an actually essential part of society such as the Russian Bratva, which accounted for 30% of economic activity under the Soviet regime, made up at least partially for the many deficiencies of the Soviet command economy and, unfortunately, established contacts and relationships at the industrial and political level in Russia which flowered in the post-Soviet era. The point is that the Thieve's Guild needs to be much more than just a cooperative of pickpockets and burglars.

Same for the DB. There are many examples from which they can draw - the Hashashin, the Ninja, Murder Inc and others besides. Right now, they're not at all fleshed out and as a consequence aren't really credible.

I do not present the above as argument, but as points for discussion. Contrary opinions are welcome - do not feel attacked if your views differ from what I have expressed.

[feral viper]

Oh absolutely.

Though, it should be noted that I have a LOT of problems with the guilds in TESA, and how they're handled as Paradigm Platforms instead of being well integrated and interesting organisations in their own right.

[forest surge]

I mean It’s still a group of Thieves, Robin Hood was a Thief, you can’t say it wasn’t a story of thieves because it still was.

[pale walrus]

It was bigger than that. He stole from tyrannical overlords who, arguably, were themselves absolute thieves. And his thievery wasn't for his own benefit, but for those very downtrodden people who were being oppressed by the aristocrats that were Robin Hood's victims. His thievery was really a war, and justice was his bounty. The Mafia absolutely cannot claim such virtue, by contrast.

https://tenor.com/view/menin-tights-careyelwes-face-side-gif-6096908

[forest surge]

I’m not talking about the Mafia tho, just that the Thieves Guild in Oblivion is still those who didn’t prey on people who worked hard themselves to making a living, merely those already living in luxury.

[pale walrus]

Oh - I did not remember. So there was a Robin Hood character to that chapter of the TG. Were the quests fun? It's been too long since I played that title.

[forest surge]

I mean I personally enjoyed it. You got to rob an Elder Scrolls which I thought was a sweet quest

[pale walrus]

Question on a different topic: Does anyone hope (as I do) that ES6 will, either thru the vanilla game or thru a DLC that involves Yokuda, help us understand more about the Kanuryai/Left handed Elves?

[feral viper]

Yes, though I... Have very low expectations in that regard.

I can still hope, while expecting the worst, however.

[forest surge]

We got more lore for the Sinestral Elves with Gold Road

[feral viper]

They still pretending they aren't elves?

[forest surge]

Nope

[feral viper]

Or have they done the TES schtick and made them the aggressors. Because god forbid Humans ever be the bad guys.

[forest surge]

No lol, nothing like that.

[feral viper]

I may some day look into it. If TES6 does enough to make me care about the setting again.

[forest surge]

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cries_from_Empty_Mouths

We got a Translation of there language from the Psijics

And they officially have a name for what the Sinestral Elves refer to themselves as.

The Kanuryai

[forest surge]

I mean honestly I think you’re not as legitimate about not caring about the Lore because you still discuss it here with others.

[feral viper]

Eeeh... I CARE, I just clearly want very different things than those making the decisions. And being frequently disappointed with those decisions and the general direction of worldbuilding isn't conducive to good mental health.

[forest surge]

Regardless I still think that would have cheered you up.

[feral viper]

So, I stepped away. Because I don't have the authority or ability to influence those decisions.

[forest surge]

Gold Road’s Scribing Questline had added in more unknown lore regarding the Past

[feral viper]

And I do remember that making the rounds when I was dipping out. The idea of a truely nihilistic culture on Nirn is something that has a lot of potential.

[forest surge]

The Kanuryai are the Sinestral Elves

[feral viper]

But, since ZoS has almost unilaterally done better than Bethesda themselves when it comes to worldbuilding and writing over the last 2 decades, I .. In remain hesitant about Bethesda's ability to execute on anything interesting regarding it.

[forest surge]

Which begs the question, what do you think of that Name?

[feral viper]

I think it's curious, given the Mer name of other Elves... But we already have one population that breaks from the Mer trend, despite also having a Mer name. The Dunmer, who call themselves the Velothi.

Which suggests that there may be some direct cultural significance to the name, potentially with Kanurya or something similar being a proper noun of some heroic figure.

And I do find myself... Very sympathetic to the cultural ideology portrayed in that.

[forest surge]

I genuinely like the name, Kanuryai. It also seems very much in a similar way to Yokudan sounding naming conventions

[feral viper]

Indeed.

[forest surge]

Which implies Man and Mer in Yokuda are closer than we realize and weren’t simply enemies until… something happened

[pale walrus]

That was a strange story (Cries from Empty Mouths.) If the left hand elves were indeed elves, how could their beliefs be so diametrically opposed to those of all the other elves? Why would they build the Orichalc Tower?

[forest surge]

I mean not all Elves share in a similar belief system

They do refer to the Yokudan’s in the translation as their enemy. But I find it fascinating how their languages are identical but different. It implies a connection between the two that had existed and that we likely don’t know of.

[pale walrus]

Yes, a very valid point. This Kanuryai idea that there is no soul or afterlife is a very big change from the beliefs of all the other elves, though - even compared to the Dwemer. It also 'clashes' with the idea that they might have built the Orichalc Tower, with the towers all being part of the theology which includes the existence of the Aedra and Daedra and the idea that both men and mer have immortal souls.

Assuming I am on the right path with the above, it leads me to a speculative effort - everyone please give me some room on this. The Left Hand Elves in that story are clearly at war with the Yokudans. Perhaps the war had been so bitter and costly up to that point that the LH elves were despairing of their old, traditional beliefs that they had in common with the Altmer (I just made several big assumptions there.) This might have caused them to turn their back on the Divines, as they were clearly deaf to the prayers and pleas of the LH Elves who continued to suffer in this terrible war. Hence their impulse to abandon traditional religious beliefs and their conclusion that mortals were all just meat and bone, with no greater purpose or destiny deriving from an immortal spirit.

Lots of speculation there.

[feral viper]

Or, the Gods and After lives are, in fact, a lie. A temporary holding pen where powerful tyrants cling to their followers like parasites, bleeding them dry and feeding off their power, before the soul wastes away entirely.

Maybe the Kanuryai know the truth. Faith is the cowards blindfold. Honour is a lie. All that awaits the dead is nothingness. Some just go there directly, others serve as playthings for godlike despots who like their toys.

Or, the Kanuryai didn't HAVE souls, and therefore were entirely disconnected from the cycles of everyone else.

Or, the Kanuryai simply do not believe the soul and the living self are the same thing

Who knows, maybe Orchalic Tower was basically an Eldar Infinity Circuit, a giant magical edifice that collected and stored the souls of dead Left-handers to preserve them instead of them fading into nothingness on death.

You could then make the Shehai a variation of Kanuryai magic. But where the Elves weaponised the souls of their dead comrades, the Yokudans weaponised their own living souls.

That would also make the blades Diagna stole from Orchalic Tower literal Left-hander souls, stolen and forced to fight for the enemy.

[pale walrus]

Since that book has appeared in ESO, could BGS (thru ZoS) being giving us clues about ES6 and its story?

[forest surge]

I mean who knows what the overall lore plan is for TESVI

[forest surge]

Finished the Scholarium Questline regarding Scribing and it was truly a magnificent Quest, the Creator of Scribing is a Half Nord, Half Reachmen working alongside Magical beings known as the Luminaries

[pale walrus]

What made it magnificent? The way it hung together, the logical progression, the uniqueness of the story.....?

[dense stump]

Is there ESO chat ?

[forest surge]

It was more a character based story on Ulfsild’s life and how she came to create Scribing, and then her final years.

[pale walrus]

Interesting. So it was a rich, well-written story. This is encouraging.

[pale walrus]

Yes, on the ESO website.

[nocturne stone]

This server is for games developed by Bethesda Game Studios themselves. ESO is developed by ZeniMax Online Studios. You can find the forums for discussion of the game here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/

[dense stump]

Ooooooooooooh

Yea I forgot bout that thank tho

[forest surge]

I find it funny that the Ayleid Ruin, Silorn in Oblivion has Necromancers doing things in there and in ESO so many years in the Past Necromancers are at it again, I think it’s safe to say this location is just a Necromancer Haven

[pale walrus]

You'd think the followers of Arkay and/or Meridia would stake the place out or at least patrol it from time to time.

[forest surge]

It’s close to Skingrad so there is that argument

[feral viper]

Probably less 'Stake the place out', as that requires a lot of resources, and more 'clear it out on occassion'

In any world where Necromancy is a real thing, it's going to be a constant issue around battlefields, abandoned burial sites, plague graves etc.

[forest surge]

Silorn is a Necromancer’s Haven just going by my experience with them in Oblivion and now ESO

It’s clear it’s a place Necromancers frequently inhabit from time to time

But still ESO being in the Past continues to make me look at certain places in a different light

[feral viper]

Their presence over long periods would suggest that there's an ample supply of ... Materials..

[forest surge]

The map for ESO’s Silorn is bigger to, which I compared to the Oblivion map and from what I gather I think the idea is that Silorn had decayed and left areas previously accessible in the 2nd Era to no longer be accessible

There are areas in this Public Dungeon to where there is clearly structural issues for rock to be falling

[feral viper]

Conceptually, Necromancy is woefully under explored in fantasy. Too often, we let real world traditions impose on exploring the more interesting developments and consequences of a lot of these things.

Like, where the industrial necromancy? Where are the Undead soldiers? Where are the mass cremation traditions to PREVENT Necromancy?

[forest surge]

You would be correct about this considering it’s size and what the real life size would probably be by comparison

[pale walrus]

Regarding necromancy - some speculation:

My guess is that necromancers engage in the field solely for the purpose of acquiring and increasing their personal power. The raised undead are ideal slaves for those who wish to dominate completely. Also, I'm betting that every time a necromancer raises the dead, he's gaining some power from it.

Mannimarco achieved some sort of divine status after practicing necromancy for thousands of years. But he doesn't seem to have a visible, noticeable presence on Nirn. I don't think there are any temples dedicated to him, and if he has acolytes, they stay well hidden. Also, his status is peculiar - I don't think he can count himself as a 'card-carrying' member of the Daedra, and certainly the Aedra don't want him in their ranks. Since both Aedra and Daedra are locked into their spheres of responsibility and behavior by the very nature of the universe, they would very likely resent someone like Mannimarco, who has complete freedom of action and will. It wouldn't surprise me if one day Mannimarco decided he was strong enough to intrude on somebody's plane or sphere of responsibility (which is a base of power) and found either a group of daedra or aedra getting so riled up by his impudence that they ganged up on him to destroy him.

Might be interesting to see him manipulating events behind the scene in the next game, though. I bet he would be in league with the Sload on many of his ventures.

[pale walrus]

Wait - another thought about Mannimarco: he strove for godhood and immortality because of his lust for power. I very strongly doubt his interest in acquiring power has abated. The question is: what is he doing to further increase his power? The Ideal Masters were (allegedly) a group of Merethic necromancers who built their own Oblivion plane/region and made it their HQ to gather more souls and further increase their power. They haven't done so well, as far as I'm concerned. After all, Mehrunes Dagon once broke into it and apparently some of his followers plundered the place. So whatever Mannimarco has in mind, he has to plan more carefully than the Ideal Masters.

[feral viper]

It's unclear what drove Mannimarco. He was amoral and problematic, sure, but his motivations have never been explored. All we can say for sure is that he strove to achieve the highest goals of the Psijic Order. He just wasn't limited by their moral baggage.

The Ideal Masters, as well, didn't create the Soul Cairn to increase their power. They created it as an eternal resting place for the dead, a place of peace free from the gods. Which... Sorts plays into the new Kanuryai stuff.

We also know of Vastare, a necromancer and lich who follows Azura of all people. And she is an ancient enemy of Mannimarco and evil Necromancers as a whole. Showing that even high end Necromancy isn't it's self a sure route to evil.

[river cloak]

What’s everyone’s favourite race in elder scrolls I kinda like Argonians but I don’t like the idea of always having to be close to the hist I know I could move away but aparently the hist is needed for Argonians to have young soooo next is bosmer there cool to but reality of the green pact is harsh I love the idea of being in harmony with nature but never eating greens ? Like cmon who doesn’t love a stuffed bell pepper with cream cheese lol anyway that brings me onto the Bretons I don’t know much about them but I like the idea of my character possible having bosmeri heritage so there’s a connection to nature but also without the green pact. On a side note khajit are cool but the amount of fur stocks confuses me like how does a Alfik raise say the big tiger khajit because sub species is determined by the moons. Nords are also cool but there need for fighting and honor is so not me I like to be a peacemaker and in the background

And there’s my elder scrolls rant enjoy 😊

[eager remnant]

Two decades ago my answer was Breton. I played exclusively warrior-type characters back then and, gameplay-wise, Bretons made the best warriors. These days, however, my answer is Dunmer. There is an interesting variety of Dunmer cultures depicted in the games, with Ashlander culture being my favorite.

[forest surge]

Mine is Khajiit

The funny thing is that people say Khajiit are the most developed right behind Dunmer

[hidden herald]

They added a ton of lore to Khajiit in ESO, though I still want to know what happened to the moons during the void nights

[stark flower]

If you can't be nice take it elsewhere please.

[pale walrus]

Now that's an excellent question. My guess: the Thalmor were already working on a long term effort to dismantle the Cyrodiilic Imperium. Somebody amongst them came up with the idea of extorting the Khajiit by blocking the twin moon cycle in order to coerce them into loosening their allegiance to Cyrodiil. However, a more subtle mind intervened and positioned the event as a mystery which could be resolved only by the magical skill of the Thalmor. Behind the scenes, a powerful Daedra assisted them in this effort - somebody who is an advocate of Chaos, Instability, Revolution, Change, Overcoming Obstacles, Trial By Fire, something of that nature. I'd venture Boethiah would fit that role well. All this is speculation, but I bet you it's not that far off from what BGS has in mind (if they ever plan to explore this event.)

[feral viper]

Or, was it entirely unrelated to the Thalmor, and they simply took credit for it in order to garner political and theological clout in Elsweyr?

I mean, we DID unbind Lorkhan's heart. Whose to say his Body isn't causing problems now, and Jone and Jode struggle to keep it at bay?

Or, maybe it was a consequence of the assassination of the Mane, and internal strife leaving the Khajiit unable to select a new one.

OR maybe it was something entirely unrelated.

In any event, the cause doesn't really tell us what happened to the Khajiit during it.

In that regard, could have been stillborns for a year. Could have been no rhyme or reason to the furstocks. Could have meant everyone was born a PARTICULAR furstock.

Could have had no actual impact at all, and all the concern was entirely theological.

[pale walrus]

Yeah, but my hypothesis is FUN. 😉 It involves a diabolical scheme supported (and perhaps driven) by an ultra-powerful being. Now: maybe the Thalmor had the 'inside scoop' on when the event would end and simply used it to their advantage by posturing as the saviors of Elsweyr. That is clearly a possibility, but also involves them having 'secret knowledge.' This alone is intriguing. Regardless: there's an opportunity fo storytelling here. Come to think of it - maybe BGS should hire me for my creative ideas. I don't come cheap, though......

https://tenor.com/view/harley-quinn-margot-robbie-suicide-squad-how-you-doing-tongue-out-gif-15156729

[pale walrus]

Redguard question: is there any information about possible clans within the Forbears and Crowns? I'm assuming there are several dominant families or alliances in each group, and I would further assume that there are some differences among them (geography, economic interests, long term plans & outlooks, rivalries, etc...)

[eager remnant]

This sounds like a question better suited to the lore channel.

[river cloak]

Soooo for my next Skyrim or eso playthrough I’m thinking imperial yes there just human and basic but I like the idea of being a good diplomat I always try keep the peace irl rather than jump straight to conflict plus I like the idea of being jack of all trades

[wind torrent]

i wonder, any plans to move The Elder Scroll in a modern era? I mean industrial revolution, high tech weapons. Sure the medieval fantasy setting is always a nice touch but would be interesting to see some changes. I can't say every regions in Tamriel should be modernized but some parts like major cities could be that.

I think a mix of magic and science could make an interesting approach.

[gray oyster]

Why has #elder-scrolls-patchnotes been renamed to #elder-scrolls-announcements may i know? I believe it's related to the public Castles release, right?

[spare anchor]

It's just to match the other games. Both Fallout and Starfield use the announcements format

[gray oyster]

Thanks, good to know!

[wind torrent]

no interest in this?

[feral viper]

I'm interested in the idea, but it's a transition few magical settings do well. And TES is very determinedly clinging to that Medieval Stasis trope.

Given both, and other problems, I'm not confident it could be executed well.

It would also require a significant time jump again, it a lot of buildup in a game to them transition fully in TES7

Also, entirely unrelated. In prefer the Roman Kingdom numbering practices, which excludes the IV/IX and instead uses IIII and VIIII.

Because I'm a rebel like that.

[wind torrent]

i mean, from ESO we got Clockwork City. I do feel technology can still be showcase but is still a niche and not so well exported

i do feel technology in Tamriel could work similar to daedric cults or wizard accademies and towers

[eager remnant]

We actually got Clockwork City from the Tribunal expansion to Morrowind.

[wind torrent]

Yeah but what i mean; let's have academy of technology or Clockwork City temples related to the use of technology in Tamriel

[feral viper]

Technology and Magic are one in the same, in any setting where magic exists.

And this is in fact reflected with the Clockwork City and the Dwemer.

Both are fundamentally magical.

[tulip basin]

Is it true? Someone shot themselves in the rift?

[wind torrent]

yes but at the same time Clockwork City and the Dwemers are a lost magic science and would interesting to see a come back as some sort of skill specialist for the technology

[feral viper]

Personally, I hate Medieval Stasis. I view it as a lazy writing crutch that holds back interesting narrative development and worldbuilding.

So I'd be all for taking the trope into the woods and burying it in a shallow grave.

[feral viper]

But TES also has the problem of not JUST being Medieval. It's cultural distribution and technology runs everywhere from late Neolithic to early Industrial (the quantity of metal manufacturing in TES is just bonkers) and everything in between.

You've got Late Classical roman legions fighting against late medieval men-at-arms while both deal with Neolithic tribal raiders and Middle Khanate mercenaries.

[wind torrent]

doesn't mean we can have some tech upgrades still view as heresy and superstition by manies

[feral viper]

Oh absolutely not. I just... Don't want it to come from the Dwemer, really.

That's too easy a solution, and the more you tap that well the more boring it becomes.

[wind torrent]

id rather take Clockwork City, according to the lore Clockwork City is far more advanced unlike the Dwemer tech left in Tamriel.

[feral viper]

I... Absolutely hate Sotha Sil, and would rather see the Clockwork City crushed and ground to dust.

[forest surge]

According To Legends… that may have happened

[pale walrus]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Clockwork_City

Looks like an exceptionally pointless vanity project on the part of Sotha Sil. Amazing that he couldn't find something more useful to do with his time and the power he stole from Lorkhan's heart.

Also - the efforts of some Daedra to take possession of the city suggest that they are petty and weak.

[wind torrent]

Hey maybe he is a morong but doesn't mean others could have a better work for Sotha Sil

[feral viper]

Sil is like Mr. House. An example of a poorly written smart character whose entire premise is flawed, whose actions are counter productive, and who ends up being more ego than brains, while everyone tells you they're so extra smart that the ego is justified.

It's similar to, say, Warhammer, where people with no understanding of military strategy write a 'Brilliant' military commander whose entire schtick is understanding how flanking works. Or whose genius solution to 100 foot tall plasma spewing god machines is 'Dig a trench'.

At the end of the day, he's a brain dead, feckless coward whose tinker toys deserve to be buried under the dirt hole he hid in. And as much as I hate the Dwemer as a writing crutch for every technical innovation in the setting, they're far preferable to anything from Sil or his Lego Technic city.

But that's getting too deep into lore and setting. Which is just going to make me angry again, so I'm going to steer towards mechanics.

One mechanical system that RPGs tend to shy away from, is Trade and Commerce. This is because it's both complicated, and also because it generally isn't story relevant in any sort of practical way.

Bethesda games, however, aren't strictly story driven, they're more world oriented.

[feral viper]

Now, why do I think Trade and commerce are something that should be explored?

Because they contribute to the living world in significant ways.

Now, I'm going to say something that's going to be controversial... But I'll get to a point.

Bethesda does not make living worlds. They don't make anything CLOSE to living worlds. They make animatronic theme parks to play in that give the facade of a world, but none of the life.

But that's fine, neither do any other RPG developers.

Unlike most other RPG developers, however, Bethesda has many of the mechanics and systems to move TOWARDS at least a facsimile of a living world.

And Trade and Commerce are one of the systems that could reinforce that direction.

Why Trade and Commerce then?

Well, because systems of trade and the exchange of goods is the cornerstone of civilisation. It drives everything from the goods available, to the power structures that both protect and exploit that, to the worldviews of populations.

In a practical sense, it also dictates what is available where, and when local authorities are interested in getting involved in issues.

A city is less likely to care about wolves in the distant hills, than it is about Bandits disrupting trade. As such, they're less likely to offer compensation for someone (an adventurer) to resolve the former, than the latter.

So, in a purely gameplay sense, Trade and Commerce would serve to flatten out the wealth curve of players (a constant problem in RPGs) grant new approaches to interact with the world, and give a way to ground radiant quest generation in the world in a natural and meaningful way.

All of this means both direct, and indirect, benefits to gameplay.

[wind torrent]

even so, i still introducing technology can change the way we can approach some areas and even some Cities

[eager remnant]

I often use a Skyrim mod called "Trade And Barter" that does some of these things. (Merchant prices can vary depending on a variety of different factors, such as faction rank, relationship, and race. Location will effect prices. Goods will be cheaper in smaller towns and more expensive in larger cities. Merchants in major cities will have more gold than their small-town counterparts. Even the way our character dresses affects prices). I found this approach not only enhanced gameplay it enhanced roleplaying as well. It inspired me to create a miner who spent the game mining ore and selling it to merchants who would give the best prices.

EDIT: Link if anybody's interested: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/23081

[feral viper]

Yeah, I've played with it a bit myself, and even just it's more hand-tailored approach was vastly superior to not having anything.

I think a more holistically integrated system with deeper ingrained baseline mechanics could take the concept to a whole new level though.

Though, as a nitpick, you don't barter with gold. That's haggling. Barter is purely good-trade.

[feral viper]

Developing a barter system would be a huge amount of work, now that I think about it...

[feral viper]

You'd need to hide item values, and at the same time apply individual and situational weight modifiers to specific items and specific vendors based on all kinds of other factors, then have the player trying to negotiate the value of THEIR goods against the value of the vendors goods without actually being able to see numerical values...

[feral viper]

Anyway, my overall point was... A background system of trade and commerce mechanics would significantly help build the sense that the world is more than a cutout, give a good grounding justification to Radiant Quests, and present new gameplay opportunities for players.

Imagine you walk into a town, and go to the shop. You notice that prices seem unusually high there, prompting you to ask about rumours. The shop keeper mentions there have been supply issues, and to talk to the mayor about it.

Going to the mayor, you find out that something has infested a local cafe and is attacking traders, making goods hard to come by. So you go to the cave, clear it out, and open up the trade lanes again.

Or, you decide to capitalise on the disruption, leg it to another town to buy up all the goods that they need, and make the trade trip yourself for a profit.

Or you ignore it long enough, and eventually the problem prompts the regional Lord to send some guards to clear out the cave themselves.

A good trade and commerce system COULD allow for all of these sorts of things to develop organically throughout your gameplay, constantly creating new opportunities and interactions to engage with as a player, while also giving a lot more life to the world.

Radiant Quests have a grounding for why they exist. Encounter areas and encounter groups are constantly being cycled through and developing. Economic fluctuations are dynamically reacting to the world. The player is constantly being presented new interactions and potential options. Etc.

[eager remnant]

Sounds good to me. 👍

[feral viper]

Put in the work to make robust systems, and you can do amazing things. But you gotta work smart.

[feral viper]

https://tenor.com/view/crickets-gif-12874518

[hidden herald]

https://tenor.com/view/fallout-cave-cricket-enemy-death-insect-gif-25180882

[feral viper]

Becoming a running trend with technical topics it seems.

Which I understand, not everyone has put as much thought into the gameplay side of things as we used to on the Forums.

Admittedly, there were like... 6-7 of us who were all basically just sat in the corner at lunch playing Magic Cards... And while the largest volume of posts were more technical, we were really just all talking to eachother.

So I suppose it's to be expected.

[eager remnant]

Speaking of the forums reminds me that we've been posting ideas about TES6 for 13 years now. There are probably members of this Discord who were not even born when we began debating about what we wanted (and didn't want) to see in ES6. That is pretty astonishing to me.

[feral viper]

We're old, Pseron.

[nimble pond]

That will just give M'aiq 13 years of dialogue.

[sinful canyon]

You’d think how much money they put into eso games they would have already created es6

[forest surge]

It’s not as simple as many think

[night violet]

How cool would it be if we got a companion in ES VI that is also a mount? Like the horse in Skyrim would fight but not do much.

But like an actual companion that levels with us and doubles as our mount.

[bitter kestrel]

Please keep comments appropriate, thank you

[scenic spade]

What news on Elder Scrolls 6?

[pale walrus]

https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/elder-scrolls-6-everything-we-know-so-far/

[nimble pond]

Pretty much the same stuff we've known for years now 🙃

[glass marlin]

Yeah there's really nothing new to know right now.

[livid ingot]

I did check today to see if Zenimax registererd any new trademarks. nothink

[cobalt cave]

is ES6 going to have paid mods?

[glass marlin]

Depends if the Creation system stays alive by the time ES6 hits, which it probably will.

[pale walrus]

Just had an extended train of thought on this. If it's all right, I'd like to outline it here.

In 2018, BGS announced SF and gave us a sneak peek at ES6. They made it clear that SF was going to be the 'next great thing' and dominate their energies, but that something was in the works already for ES6. That ES6 teaser did indeed show that they had something more than meeting notes and email discussions.

Now: it's been pointed out that there is a rough 3 year rhythm between major releases. In other words, if BGS releases an ES title on year 1, you could reasonably expect a new FO on year 4, then a newer ES on year 7, a newer FO on year 10 and so on.

I believe the covid thing threw a wrench into the gears for BGS and pushed everything out by 2 years. So instead of releasing SF in 2021, they released it in 2023. Everything else likely took the same schedule hit. Thus, it seems reasonable to expect ES6 from BGS in 2026.

However, the terms "Production" and "Pre-Production" have been thrown around as well. It has been claimed that Full Production began in August 2023 on ES6. But I do not believe that this should be taken in an absolute sense. In other words, I would not assume that the ES6 product specification was signed off on August 1st 2023 and product development/coding began the next day. It's clear that a team has been doing a certain amount of coding for some time - the 2018 video was not spawned out of a vacuum. BGS is farther along than the standard "Pre-Production" and "Production" phases normally indicate.

With all that in mind, I believe a final, finished and high quality product will be released in Q4 2026. If this forecast proves to be wrong, so be it. But per the discussion above, it's not an unreasonable forecast and does not suggest a rushed development.

[lean plume]

Hi Guys im starting play elder scrolls online on xbox series x if someone like to join me hit me up on xbox ACTheKnight, thanks all🙏

[feral viper]

Alas, it ended up being not so great.

[feral viper]

3-5, generally. 3 is on the lower end.

[eager remnant]

This is a chat for the single-player games made by Bethesda Game Studios. If you have a question or comment concerning Elder Scrolls Online you should direct it to ZeniMax Online Studios. You can find their forums here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en

[feral viper]

It's also important to note that, typically, when Bethesda switches into support mode for a game, with DLC and patches in mind, their coding efforts become limited.

This has led to rather famous anecdotal stories, such as the repurposing of the Grenade explosion and a shrinking mansion for the large explosion in FO3s Point Lookout.

However, we know this isn't the case with Starfield, as a rover was never an intended part of the game (assuming we haven't been outright lied to).

The fact that we are GETTING one indicates that the ongoing support for Starfield does not follow the same trend as last support structures.

The result of this being, we cannot reliably apply the turnover rate of past titles to the clearly new practices.

Could be shorter. Could be longer. We simply lack sufficient data to determine what the outcome of the changes will be.

PERSONALLY, and this is based more on a marketing perspective than anything, I wouldn't expect anything EARLIER than Q4 2027.

That leaves 2 full years of DLC for Starfield, and a break period in between major releases, to prevent self-competition.

Now, if Starfield continues it's... Less than stellar reception following the release of Shattered Space, then you may see a change in that timeline.

But that's why discussion on release dates is basically worthless.

Too many unknown variables which themselves require baseless speculation to even get to an estimate.

[feral viper]

I mean... You could just as easily say that with Microsoft's resources, Bethesda could double in size in the next year and streamline development to allow for a Q1 2026 release.

Or that because of Microsoft's top-heavy management practices, it could SLOW development and push it back to 2029 as a release title for whatever the next console is.

The exact same fact (Microsoft's acquisition of Bethesda) can be spun to fit both speculations.

Which means the speculation is irrelevant and unproductive.

[forest surge]

https://youtu.be/m4BFLOysrI0?si=S_Q3wfJC0wH8WyKj

[feral viper]

In a purely practical sense, it's also not particularly useful to Bethesda themselves in producing a better product.

'We want it now' or 'I think it will be done X' doesn't really add anything of value or give them a reason to even look at us.

[forest surge]

It’s amazing how much one game can change lives in a positive way.

[feral viper]

I mean, gaming in general can be viewed the same. It's also ruined some lives.

So it's definitely more nuanced than a feel good video.

[forest surge]

I’ve always preferred just feel good experiences in this case. As much as I know other cases where it’s done the opposite for some

[feral viper]

I don't think either have any real value on their own. It's only together that they have value.

However, I also find these sorts of curated PR productions rather... Distasteful in and of themselves, because they're little more than self congratulatory corporate marketing at the expense of legitimate communities. The fans do all the world, the company just uses it as advertising to make more money.

And that's not specifically a Bethesda problem, it's a wider symptom of the world we live in.

[sinful canyon]

Well if elder scrolls 6 comes out then I won’t buy the next gen version Xbox

And if it does come out for some sort of last ditch effort from Xbox studios to make money off a game with the current hardware I will be fine but mad and annoyed that they didn’t tell us something sooner

I just hope we get a heads up about it soon

[sinful canyon]

They’re being really secretive about es6 what’s their secret

[forest surge]

https://tenor.com/view/frodo-secrets-keep-your-secrets-gif-13114821

[nimble pond]

TESVI - VIctoria's Secret https://media1.giphy.com/media/l2YSw5fDSPzPtvR60/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9524plk8lasbf3xuh6lvrcr2jr6q40c7cjnv2feldtj&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[eager remnant]

Bethesda Game Studios never say much about their games until their games are nearing release.

[sinful canyon]

I just wish they would at least let us know if we have to upgrade consoles to play to get us ready so we aren’t unprepared

[cinder idol]

I wonder if we'll get the fun experimental potions from the novel series in ES6.
I want to have a character drink a potion of partial invisibility and just appear as bones and organs for a day or two.

[dim reef]

I think there's a chance that we've been told more about ES6 than we realize even if the information was indirect.

[feral viper]

The amount of work that would require for the sake of a funny but isn't really a priority, I don't think.

Would be fun, sure, but there's a lot more than needs serious attention before that even becomes an option .

[wide garnet]

That’d be something for Halloween.

[feral viper]

Once Bethesda sorts out Combat, Dialogue Interaction, Radiant Systems, and Character Variables... Then builds robust Crafting systems, then we can hope for quirky effects.

[wide garnet]

Remember Oblivion’s Stark Reality spell? That’d be something to see.

[feral viper]

Unfortunately I remember too much about Oblivion.

[warm stump]

why unfortunately?

[wide garnet]

I suppose it’s all in how you look at things: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw4XgiNRUnA

[feral viper]

Because I do not think it was very good, and the preponderance of negative memories of it likely influences my bias and ability to make more critical examinations of it and whatever value it DOES have.

[warm stump]

thats cool. Oblivion seems to have been one of the titles that really got people into Elder Scrolls

[feral viper]

It was, and that's definitely a benefit.

But my... Issues with Oblivion have been dredged up before, and are the stuff if infamy already, so I won't open that old wound again right now.

[feral viper]

You know... I love Henson and Sesame Street ... But there are definitely some lessons that have not aged well.

Over reliance on perspective results in solipsism, and we should be teaching kids skepticism and critical thinking instead.

But that's a whole topic that's not for here.

More to the general channels function...

I think that the idea of Potion Failures could have some mechanical value, in a simple way, even if you don't include the outlandish side effects for comedic value.

If you tweak the system to make it so you have to generally refine materials into extracts before making a position selecting singular effects, and then allow players to STILL mix raw ingredients as well...

You could use the random infiltration of secondary effects from the ingredients.

[nimble pond]

I do like "effects" and having plenty of materials they come from, whether that's from alchemy, enchanting, spells, crafting, etc. Glowing swords, marking a target with glow from an arrow, fireworks, spell reflective armor, shrinking/increasing size, customization, anything really. Injecting some fun into the game.

[somber sage]

anyone suspect ESVI is gonna utilize a variant of Starfield's procgen to give us a 1:1 scale Iliac bay? (Daggerfall scale)

[eager remnant]

I suspect the size of the game world may be closer to the size of Fallout 76's West Virginia.

[somber sage]

that would make sense

[forest surge]

🎵 Take me Home… Country Roads… to the Place… I belong… West Virginia! 🎵

[feral viper]

Yeah, I'm not against those things, I'm just saying they shouldn't be a priority.

So many parts of TES are so barely functional, outdated, or haphazard, that major effort needs to be made to address them first.

Once you have the framing up, then you can decorate the house.

[pale walrus]

https://tenor.com/view/ray-liotta-laughing-happy-lol-gif-15802525

[pale walrus]

That would be a lot more fun if the NPCs reacted to it.

[pale walrus]

I'm not actually worried about the game scale. Amount and quality of content is more important to me. HF is huge, so there's plenty of room for interesting content. But smaller provinces - Valenwood, Elsweyr, Black Marsh, HR - could all make excellent settings for future titles.

https://tenor.com/view/get-it-thoughts-thinking-think-smart-be-wise-gif-17692731

[nimble pond]

It's only smaller on the map. In-game, they're are probably just going to grow larger with each new title. So a province like Elsweyr could end up being "larger" than HF, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil combined. Not simply in-game scale, but things like content, detail, and everything else that makes up the game.

[eager remnant]

Exactly. In-game, they can expand or contract the size of the map however they please.

[nimble pond]

It's an interesting concept to talk about. Starfield it's like.. many "smaller" worlds using proc gen. Whereas an alternative could be fewer "larger" worlds using proc gen. (So you won't notice the "loading screens" as often).

[feral viper]

Starfield's procgen was bad. And I could go into a whole diatribe on why it was bad. But that's not entirely appropriate for this particular channel.

The more important conclusion of it is that, just because that use of it was bad, doesn't mean Procgen is bad.

Like all Generative AI systems, it's a tool. And how good the result of it is, depends on what you do with it and how.

Though it is also worth noting that... I more than once got the sensation that it wasn't the procgen in Starfield that was the problem, it was the manual alterations after the fact that did the damage.

[nimble pond]

I sincerely don't think anyone thought ideas like that were "priority" or at least, not implied to be so. It's simply talk for fun. Besides, I believe you've already pointed out the majority of foundation and basic concepts that one could debate about. 🙂

[feral viper]

There were just some newer faces, so I was making sure to repeat my position to keep things clear.

[nimble pond]

Cruller is not new 😋, but I get the point.

[feral viper]

Look, I can remember, like, 5 people at a time. You, Wolf Pseron take up 3. Everyone else has to share the limited memory 😛

https://tenor.com/view/futurama-bender-your-mother-robot-gif-5758377

There doesn't appear to be a gif of the specific robot I want to reference.... But this makes the episode reference clear.

[nimble pond]

With Starfield's proc-gen. I wonder if they'll do a sort of "active" proc-gen thru future updates? You know, adding more structures to the mix.

[feral viper]

Maybe, though by and large I think the biggest issue with Starfield's parameters was the unnecessary inclusion of human structures, and the lack of assets.

Similar to one of my gripes about Oblivion, the way Starfield's procgen developed those environments undermined the theme, tone and feel of the game.

Nothing shatters the feeling of being the first person to discover this planet, than a research base dungeon right being you.

[nimble pond]

Proc-gen could have more identity or uniqueness tho. It's like you say, let proc-gen handle the basics or foundation of a structure, than you can go in and hand-craft some of the finer details and variences to make each one unique, even tho they might share the similar foundations from proc-gen build.

[feral viper]

Procgen, as a matter of function, is pretty good at creating a sense of Ordered Randomness that, provided you have sufficient components to minimise obvious duplication, can be really good at creating a sense of a natural environment.

Minecraft is a prime example of this strength.

[nimble pond]

Mhm. But I think the real punch comes from mixing them both, like not just proc-gen structures or hand-drawn ones. The structure a bit of both, utilizing both works.
They could make an entirely proc-gen-only world with an abundance of proc-gen structures, say 1000s. But then, I feel like even with that high number, it would still feel like a proc-gen world and get dull after some hours in. That's why I think it's important to mix both together.

And many additional layers could be applied as well. Like a specific structure may only generate in certain kinds of areas, they type of enemies or friendlies that may inhabit it, etc.

[feral viper]

Yeah.

I think a really great case study for the development of procgen systems is 7 Days to Die.

At one point, it used basically complete procgen to create it's world (assuming you weren't playing on the hand crafted map) and included things like Oceans and Caves.

What they learned, was that while Procgen was really good at creating natural feeling environments, it was terrible at creating 'Designed' environments. Things like homes, buildings, roads etc.

The caves also didn't work out in the end, because of patching and tracking problems with the zombies, but that's... A whole other topic.

So, their focus in assets shifted towards developing hand crafted POIs, which would populate the more naturally generated world.

And after a decade of that, they have literally hundreds of POIs. I'd say probably more than there are locations in Bethesda's last 3 games combined...

[nimble pond]

Perhaps cause nature itself is already so varied. Things like man-made structures can become feeling quite "generic" if proc-gen not mixed with that hand detailing to give some uniqueness to these structures and their places in the world.

[feral viper]

Or, if you lack sufficient volume. And you need a LOT of volume.

So, the smart thing, IMO, would be to use procgen to do a natural once over. Effectively creating a wild and natural landscape untouched by structured creative forces.

Then you go in and cut that back with civilisation.

[nimble pond]

For the overall world, of course. But also applying that mixing of proc-gen, variances, and hand-decorating on individual structures within that world as well.

[feral viper]

Oh absolutely.

But I basically mean, everything man-made, should be man-made.

Everything natural, can be procgen.

[nimble pond]

Could even go a step further and pick some proc-gen nature spots for more hands-on intervention. Create some truly unique nature locations in line with the lore and gameworld itself.

[feral viper]

So most of the world is going to be a mix.

Absolutely. An interesting cave, for instance, can become a bandits lair.

[nimble pond]

Perhaps a single section of foresty where everything is luminescent, even the trees. Perhaps their glow changes color depending on seasons, moon phases, or month, etc.

[feral viper]

A lot depends too on the specific generation parameters, and some engine dynamics. Bethesda's current engine, for instance, just... Does not handle caves well.

So because the engine doesn't accommodate that sort of intersectional terrain mapping, it's going to limit what you can do with procgen as well

[nimble pond]

Have to go about it another way I'd suppose

[feral viper]

Which, as an explicit technical thing, Bethesda desperately needs to catch up on. The engines over reliance on raw height mapping is more than a decade out of date.

[nimble pond]

But it'd sure be nice if it did accommodate it

[feral viper]

MOST of the engine is fine. But its height mapping isn't part of that most.

I mean, they don't even have intersectional pre-made assets that allow them to simulate caves and basements. Even World of Warcraft has those.

[feral viper]

But anyway, manual once over to create rough height map. Procgen once over to create a more varied height map (ideally including caves). Manual once over to define biomes. Procgen once over to populate biomes. Then a final once over to manually populate it with Civilisation.

[nimble pond]

I don't know what height map is or means.

But I really like color. Would be cool for a way to change the color of the moon or stars at night to glow whatever color. We got to play with the sun, so why not? And kinda obsessed with something as small as being able to change the color of our flame spells thru custom spellcrafting.

Maybe we could even command our companions to head home to deposit all out loot in a designated drop-off spot for us to organize later while we continue our exploring, and then head on back to us. Maybe the horse could be trained to do this as well. I may want to stay out adventuring and not head home for some time.

And are there are creatures or animals that make music or song? Idk, I think it'd pretty interesting, having that at home creating some relaxing hymn. Maybe as a pet. So much better than that bard racket that makes my ears scream. 😄

[feral viper]

Conceptually? Plenty. Both food and bad. Sirens are the most obvious classical example

[nimble pond]

They already exist in game lore? Cool

[feral viper]

Not that I know of. Though that doesn't mean no.

Nymphs and Niads do though, both of whom are known to be musical in classical lore.

[wide garnet]

I’ve got something I’d like to share from my fanfiction:

As part of an adventure in Hammerfell, the Maxwell, Matthias and Co. are tasked to locate a Synod Mage named Neil. Unfortunately, Neil’s just a real magnet for trouble, but he’s also a real magnet for really lucky discoveries (like when he catches hold of a Dwemer thresher trap, “rides” it for a bit, gets flung through a wall, and breaks into a vault of enchanted weapons and armor).

Another unfortunate thing is that the Breach and Alduin’s return also resurrects an ancient “weapon” from the Dragon war, a sand-swimming Dovah (like a Diablos from Monster Hunter that can use the Thu’um), and the only way to stop it is to solve the mystery of seven ancient Dwemer Ruins that only Neil knows the location of.

Adding to their trouble is a greedy merchant who cares more for the profits that Dwemer artifacts can bring him, or anything else that he can encounter.

This is one of Neil’s interactions that show how he’s much tougher than he looks:

“Oh, so, true story! So, I popped a piton in the Jer’ell mountains a few months back, or maybe it was a few years back. Anyway, I spent a whole week dangling from a cliff in the middle of a raging blizzard! * kooky laugh *”

[nimble pond]

I swear this guy is M'aiq. Dreeno, Zeno, Dragonstrong.

[feral viper]

COULD? Yes. Is it LIKELY? Not even remotely.

[feral viper]

That dialogue is too real. I have literally met people who tell stories like that, and it's giving me flashbacks.

[feral viper]

Basically, a 2d interpretation of elevation which is then rendered into a 3d environment.

It's... More complicated than that, but that's the very rough explanation.

The problem is, when this is used in world generation, you lose a significant amount of 3 dimensional variability. That's why there has been a general trend in newer engines towards voxel generation, allowing for better simulation of truely 3 dimensional environments.

[wide garnet]

https://tenor.com/view/oops-whoopsies-adam-de-vine-gif-7976025

[feral viper]

Lol

[feral viper]

I'm grossly oversimplifying things here, btdubs.

But the basic problem is, the way the world generation works cannot handle areas overlapping. In order to create any sort of environment that is not just a vertical shift (like an overhang, cave, crest, cellar, etc) the way the engine works requires you to build out the structure with other assets to create the illusion of something.

The basic terrain mapping cannot accomodate for this sort of natural formation.

This is why you have cell transitions when entering caves. Partly anyway, optimization to limit the amount of rendered assets also plays a role.

[pale walrus]

🤣 You're not the only one who is thinking that, brother

[wide garnet]

If you don’t like the Neil line I did first, how about this one? It takes place after the seven ruins are “cleared”.:

Matthias: * in awe * Wow! Who would have thought that all this was buried in Hammerfell?!

Lucien: Just think about what could be hiding under your feet without your knowledge!

Neil: * falls out of the sky, then pulls his head out of the sand * * trembling with excitement * I said this was going to be awesome, didn’t I? And I was right, Awesome! This is huge!! In the history of the— We’re going to be famous!! I know it!! I mean just look at this!! Ancient Dwemer built this! How?! How’d they do it?! How’d they think it?! Did they think about doing it?! Or just do it?! Geniuses, right?! They had to be!!

Maxwell: * awkward laugh *

I should also mention that Neil has a really high-pitched, squeaky voice. The kind that really grates on your nerves if you listen to it too long.

Also, he’s got another bad habit of “beating” you to the “treasure room” of any dungeon by, and I quote him, finding a crack to peer into, tripping, and falling straight in, “shooting down like an arrow from the bow, head first! It was a wild ride!” Which is why the other members of the Synod envy him, wondering if he’s incredibly lucky, cursed, or both.

[feral viper]

Right, so. Back to my rambling.

The Alchemy Side Effect thing the other day put me on an Alchemy kick so..

Right now, Alchemy is... Well, it's technically functional, but kinda... Not good.

It's clunky, it's tedious, it lacks any real way to interact beyond just clicking Brew, and it's functionally and thematically entirely divorced from Alchemy as a concept.

You can use it to make things, yes, but that's kinda like saying you can use a rock to drive a nail.

[wintry cedar]

Just got the Seabloom Villa home and I can't figure out how to toggle the vines on/off. I've searched reddit, google, offical page about the house and nothing. Every YouTube video boasts about the feature yet none of them show you how it works. Can someone please tell me how to toggle the vines?

[eager remnant]

This is a chat for the single-player games made by Bethesda Game Studios. If you have a question or comment concerning Elder Scrolls Online you should direct it to ZeniMax Online Studios. You can find their forums here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en

[nimble pond]

Think they'll ever do a "Terminator" Tamriel? Invaders from a highly futuristic Tamriel upon the present one. Advanced spells and weapons beyond imagination.

[feral viper]

Let the Necrons invade Tamriel. Clean that whole Talos problem right up.

[nimble pond]

A good contagion or virus would probably do the job. Cleanse all of Nirn for that matter. The Mer are just the same with their own bs as the Men, they just come with pointy ears. But.. perhaps both could be useful experimental subjects in virus mutation to create a more suitable race. Ponder..ponder 🤔

[nimble pond]

Hope they add more underwater races, don't all have to be playable or amphibious. Just the additional lore and presence of them would be nice in fleshing out the underwater world of Tamriel and giving a true underwater civilization just as on land. I mean all provinces have coastlines to the sea, even Cyrodiil. As if the sea was later meant to be used more frequently for things like travel and trade and whatnot. Seems like a waste not using it more.

[eager remnant]

I would love to see more done with underwater areas in ES6. I spent hours swimming underwater in Morrowind (I grew up on a lake and it brought back many fond memories for me). I would love to see them expand on Morrowind's grottoes and underwater shrines. There is so much they could do with underwater areas. Like you say, it feels like a waste. Fallout 4 had some interesting things to see underwater, but they could have done so much more.

[nimble pond]

Can't wait to see Argonians on Histbark surf boards lol 😆
Maybe some interesting beach civilizations too. Beaches could def use some more love too.

[pale walrus]

I vaguely remember an extended conversation from months ago where an idea popped up concerning a mage who learned how to control dwemer automatons and their manufacturing machinery, using them to build his own mechanical army. Maybe this could serve as the basis of a "Terminator" - inspired crisis.

For sea-based exploration and intelligent species, I suspect the Sload would be central to such an environment. I honestly wonder what's keeping the Sload in check - they are particularly hostile to the Altmer and have hardly better feelings for any of the other Tamriel tribes. Since they seem to breed with ease, my guess is that they are constantly at war with several underwater species, and thus cannot marshal their resources easily against Tamriel.

[nimble pond]

They could do something with futuristic Dwemer, sure. But I didn't it mean it HAD to be a robotic-like thing, more a "whole" futuristic Tamriel altogether generally.

[nimble pond]

Not just the Sload themselves, but perhaps some invention introducing new races related to the Sload as well. Designing an entire network of underwater civilization, essentially. From Sload, Maormer, Dreugh, and everything in-between. Probably a mud-crab king somewhere in the depths.

[pale walrus]

A new article calls for a more robust access to playing as a werebeast or vamp in ES6: https://gamerant.com/the-elder-scrolls-6-skyrim-dawnguard-vampire-werewolf-launch-dlc-good/

This brings to mind a question for me: I've never found either of them to be compelling in ES. I find both forms of monster to be boring and overused, both as a player option and as an opponent. But I'm pretty sure I'm a distant outlier in the player base on this - both forms are, as far as I can tell, very popular and in heavy demand. My question is - why is that? For those of you who derive great enjoyment from playing as a werebeast or vamp, what is it that you find so attractive?

[ornate geode]

Actual TES question, idk if ive asked this before, but what is the overall concensus of Tamriel towards interracial marriages amongst everyday people? I dont rember any particular example

[humble cargo]

Hey didn’t know if anyone new of and could suggest some good Skyrim based YouTube channels for me. I’ve gotten into formerly blue recently and it brought me back into my Skyrim obsession and didn’t know if anyone knew of some similar channels or videos. Thanks 😊

[glass marlin]

Remind me, are the books on Umbriel counted as canon toward the games or no?

[eager remnant]

Some of my favorites are FudgeMuppet, JuiceHead, Imperial Knowledge, TheEpicNate315, Bard's College Graduate, Zaric Zhakaron, Heavy Burns, Mike - The Gaming Dad, Zeke, Joov, Nerbit, Master Neloth, ESO (the channel), and, of course, Bethesda Softworks.

[eager remnant]

From a Twitter Q&A with Pete Hines on 2011-01-03:

Question: Are the novels canon?
Hines: Yes, we consider the Elder Scrolls novels canon to TES lore.

[glass marlin]

Okay ty!

[pale walrus]

They are perfectly acceptable, as far as I've been able to discern.

By the way: I wouldn't think of the different groups as 'races' - they come across to me more as tribes.

[pale walrus]

TIMENG is a fun channel with lots of skyrim content

[humble cargo]

Oh wow that’s a lot awesome thank you!!! ❤️

[humble cargo]

Thank you I’ll check them out! ❤️

[livid ingot]

This is a good topic for discussion, but I can't say that I have ever cared about being a vampire or werewolf for long. I think to make them interesting they need much more fleshing out. I feel the downsides have been nerfed over the years when the downsides are there to change the way you play the game as a vampire or werewolf. I feel like werewolf transformations should be uncontrollable (unless you have Hircine's Ring), and you should have some sort of bloodlust compelling you to kill as a werewolf. I think being a vampire could be more fun if you had vampire hunters tracking you down and ambushing you, maybe during the day when you're sleeping. I don't know, there's lot of stuff to be mined here and I don't think the streamlining of the two really helps matters.

[pale walrus]

This article very lightly explores what might be important for ES6 other than setting/province: https://gamerant.com/elder-scrolls-6-hammerfell-setting-timeline-when/

I'm not sure we need to worry TOO much about that. I'm assuming ES6 will move deeper into the 4th era - enough time to separate it from ES5 such that there's no longer talk about the Last Dragonborn and the Skyrim Civil War has been settled.

But there are some details which are potentially concerning. For instance: how will the dwemer be portrayed in ES6? There are dwemer ruins in HF, but if they look largely the same as those in ES5, it will be disappointing. Despite what we've seen in ESO, I'm hoping BGS makes the Rourken dwemer automatons and ruins different enough to make them distinctly memorable.

[feral viper]

Well, I don't know what I expected. But that article was another big nothing Burger.

[feral viper]

As a for Werewolves and Vampires... I've never found them compelling either. Because I don't think they CAN be, in this sort of game.

Werewolves and Vampires are such a behavioural deviation from 'normal' that you can't just drop them into a game like TES. They fundamentally change how a player needs to think, what they prioritise, and how they interact with the world.

Your only options are to neuter everything about the to the point of comedic irrelevance (which is what they have traditionally done) or to avoid the subject altogether for gameplay.

The wider nature of Bethesda games as a whole, how they're designed and how they impose upon or liberate the player is simply not conducive to Vampires or Werewolves having any compelling gameplay.

As such, they exist entirely as a Rule of Cool, Game-AND dynamic that is, and has always been, kinda lame.

[feral viper]

Though, the same core problem that makes Vampires and Werewolves dull, is what makes drugs in Bethesda games so laughable.

Without the compulsions that these afflictions cause, and the crippling negative side effects that come with them, they will never BE compelling.

[glacial aspen]

I hope they upgrade how grass streams in for TES VI. Sick of seeing a very obvious square line where the grass stops. Also would be nice if they did something for sand dunes because in Starfield the sand areas are just hills not dunes. Uncharted 3 has better sand and it came out in…2011

[pale walrus]

Whoa - just heard a minute ago while watching the countdown to the SpaceX launch for Polaris Dawn crewed flight that James Earl Jones died today. (sorry for the non-ES related news.)

[eager remnant]

#off-topic

[feral viper]

In thinking about it, I'm actually leaning more and more on the side of dropping Vampirism and Lycanthropy entirely. The amount of work to make them even remotely accurate and compelling would basically mean designing an entire game within the game...And at present I don't think that's worth the time investment.

They're basically more work than they're actually worth right now.

Same with drugs, really. In fact, I think BGS games do such a terrible job of representing the negative side of drugs, that they are unintentionally endorsing drug use.

[pale walrus]

Agreed 1000%

[forest surge]

Personally I am against all of that, as the option wouldn’t be to remove but instead actually improve

[feral viper]

Drugs I think are far easier to fix, mechanically.

Simply make the withdrawal effects crippling, and the drug bonuses depreciating. Or even better, make the addiction a stacking debuff to the point where you're functionally required to dose just to get to base-line, gradually eroding the benefits of the drug entirely.

Then, if you manage to detox (none of these stupid Adictol instant cures) ANY use of it again instantly puts you back to where you were.

Werewolves and Vampires are... A much harder fix. Not the least of all because Bethesda and TES continue to struggle to define exactly what they are and how they behave.

Like, does a Vampire get stronger or weaker when they don't feed? Are they weak to sunlight or not? Do they have inherent magical abilities or not? Do they suffer from a blood drinking compulsion or not?

You couldn't even begin to fix them until you clearly define what they are and how they work. And Bethesda has given a different answer to that in every single game.

And no, in this regard, I don't think ESO did any better. Being a Vampire or a Werewolf is basically just a skill line in it, and has absolutely no consequence or consideration regarding the affliction you suffer from.

In order to make either Vampirism or Lycanthropy more than a silly token inclusion for the rule for cool, they require EXTENSIVE work.

But so does basically every other aspect of the games. And unlike Combat, or Magic, or Crafting, or Radiant Systems, or half a dozen other things, the work required for these only effects them.

Which should make them a much lower priority.

[feral viper]

IF you had everything else addressed, and then had the time to dedicate towards Vampirism... At minimum, I would say:

Vampirism grants you 2x Health, Stamina and Magicka. However, it entirely disables natural recovery. You cannot heal, cannot recover stamina, cannot regain Magicka, without feeding.

Sunlight does damage per second of exposure.

You cannot get Well Rested, and cannot get any Good Buffs.

You gain access to a few minor powers.

If you go more than X days without feeding, you start to change. The more starved you get, the more physically weakened you become, but the more magically powerful.

When feeding, you drain health to recover your own resources. IF The targets health drops to 0, they die. So you need to learn to ration yourself, or you're going to leave bodies.

And even all of that, I think, ultimately fails to really reflect the Thirst and the monster that a Vampire is.

[pale walrus]

How about 'grades' of vampire? Junior, Journeyman, Senior and Lord, each successively stronger, faster and more robust, with growing powers to shape shift into an animal form, fly/levitate and such. A vamp lord should be a truly fearsome thing. The very presence of a vampire nest/lair should be sufficiently dreadful that the local authorities organize the largest armed response they can muster to destroy the creatures. I suppose you could do the same (in spirit) for werebeasts. Perhaps such creatures can be kept in check thru a special relationship with the local government thru a 'payment' policy - the creature will leave citizens alone and not expand its nest if the authorities provide it sustenance on a regular scheduled basis, at which point that local government would have an avenue for ridding themselves of criminals, malcontents or political opponents. But this should be exceedingly rare.

[feral viper]

Yeah, there's a lot you COULD do with it. It's just a matter of how much work you want to put in.

But that sorta gets into the issue of investment vs reward. If you're building a robust Vampire system, how does that benefit people who aren't playing a Vampire? Especially if you effectively build up an entirely distinct game for Vampires/Werewolves than for regular people.

Like, being one of these things shouldn't feel anything like being a normal adventurer.

And you still have the Compulsion problem. Because Bethesda actively AVOIDS compulsions in their games, to not restrict player freedom and agency.

But for Vampires and Werewolves, the compulsion is a huge part of their identity. You can't just make a Vampire that doesn't have to feed.

So at a core level, Bethesda either needs to step up and make compulsions a thing, forcing the player to behave in a particular way, or they need to make the entire dynamic such that you are heavily encouraged to behave in a particular way.

And neither of those options really mesh with Bethesda's design ethos.

Which is why I say I don't think there IS a way to make these things compelling. Because Bethesda isn't willing to compromise on that ethos, and without that compromise the core aspects of these identities cannot be expressed.

So, if it's going to stay, it's going to stay as a token gimmick that ultimately offers nothing more than some tacky window dressing. Which is better than nothing, but not by much.

It'd be nice if they could actually decide what a vampire is like in the setting though.

[pale walrus]

I agree - being a vamp or werebeast should be much more than getting a set of buffs, a new skill tree and some cool combat animations. Truth be told, I have no interest in either. In Skyrim, I got rid of the Werewolf infection at the first opportunity (during the Companions questline) and refused Harkon's gift in Dawnguard for all my playthroughs. It might become moderately more interesting to me if there were actual (and severe) negative consequences to assuming those roles in the next title. I suspect, though, that not all of the player base would agree with me.

[feral viper]

Definitely not. Nor with me.

But as far as I'm concerned, a Vampire without The Thirst is just a glitter fairy that likes the taste of blood (Twilight Vampire) and not worth their mettle.

And a Werewolf with total control is just a Chihuahua.

[forest surge]

I personally don’t care much for the consequences angle as I feel that is already reserved for show and tell with Vampires and Werewolves that aren’t the player

[feral viper]

I am a fan of meaningful game design and choices.

It's why I don't like the whole 'More weapon types for the sake of having them' idea. Spears, Flails, Staves etc. are all well and good, but if you can't reflect them in a meaningful and distinct way, they're all just redskins of the Ham Bat.

Though I suppose it depends on what you view as 'Compelling'. I don't think it's possible to be compelling without those sorts of meaningful distinctions.

[pale walrus]

I believe it might be interesting to expand negative consequences for werebeasts and vamps beyond their being hated, feared, hunted and reviled, along with their vulnerabilities to environmental factors (sunlight and full moon.) For instance: say a vamp comes to an agreement with local law enforcement to become their "convict disposal service" mentioned previously. What if Molag Bal approached this vamp and said "You're not doing enough to further my interests with the gift of power I've bestowed upon you - serve me fully or suffer my wrath!" and refusal of his command brought down a heap of woe upon the vamp's head? Same thing for werebeasts, but subsitute Hircine for Molag Bal. This would be another thing that could make these two creature types much more interesting (for me, at least.)

[feral viper]

I definitely think there are ways to improve, I just don't think you can really get to something interesting without significant work. And considering the far more integral systems that also need significant work, I would not say Vampires and Werewolves are a high priority there.

They're a gimmick. Leave them as a gimmick and fix the really important stuff, then you can come back to turn them into an engaging and thoughtful dynamic later.

Though again, I think basically everything needs significant work. The only system which was almost perfect as it was, was Fallout 4s dialogue system. It was just used poorly.

[humble cargo]

I agree I think as well adding rewards and consequences surrounding role play aspects like Gods would be nice. Without mods on Skyrim like Faiths of Skyrim I don’t think I’d be as invested in a role play as I get.
I’d love to see more care put into making role play more of a center stage thing in future games. I don’t want to be assigned a role like in Fallout 4 and Skyrim. That’s just me though.

[eager remnant]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. How are we assigned a role in Skyrim?

EDIT: Are you referring to being a prisoner at the start of a game? If so, I might agree with this. I use alternate start mods with (nearly) every character I roleplay. I find these are invaluable aids to roleplaying.

[somber sage]

I'm wondering if Bethesda will bring on Inon Zur for ES6. Personally I'd love to see Jack Wall work with them. The Myst III and IV soundtracks are phenomenal and he has a thing for exotic instruments that would work well with a Hammerfell setting.

[humble cargo]

Being assigned Dragonborn like you don’t have an option of just being a regular guy you have to have this be apart of your story kinda thing

[feral viper]

Well, I mean .. just go south. Dragonborn plot doesn't happen, you don't learn shouts, etc.

If you're going to engage with the main plot, you active choose to fit into that role. Just like you can't do Oblivion without being the Sun's Companion, and you can't do Morrowind without being the Nerevsrine.

[feral viper]

As far as music goes... Who does it is less important to me than tonal consistency.

There are a lot of fantastic composers and musical talent out there, all of whom could do an excellent job.

But on the directing side, there needs to be a clear consistency in tone and theme. We don't need a repeat of Oblivion.

[somber sage]

yeah agreed

[livid ingot]

I don't think tonal consistency has anything to do with music. It's about the narrative tone of the story.

[feral viper]

Probably my favourite soundtrack of recent memory was Jesper Kyd's composition for Darktide and I think it's a great example of what I mean.

It is, in effect, Gothic Techno. It perfectly blends the high tech sci-fi and brooding gothic atmosphere, while serving both as an atmospheric backdrop and high octane action motivator.

Music that is representative of the setting, the mood, and the active engagement of the player, simply hits on a whole different level.

My counter example is always Oblivion, which IMO is one of the worst soundtracks in AAA gaming.

Not because of its execution, because the music is it's self technically competent... But because it's totally divorced from any aspect of the game or setting.

Here's a game, set in the Imperial Heartland, in the midst of a succession crisis and under the threat of demonic invasions, a determined and battered Empire raging against the forces seeking to bring it low.

And you get the gentlest, most melancholic sound track imaginable, with all the pep of a retirement home at 1 am.

Tone and tonal consistency is something that runs through the entirety of a project. Art, narrative, music, even gameplay and environmental design.

[nimble pond]

My warrior character identity just feels 'wrong' if I'm not lashing a flail or meteor hammer around 😆
It's like being a mage and telling me I can only use fireballs.

[feral viper]

And I can understand that, but I'm sure you'd rather that Hammer feel distinct from a Short Sword, rather than behave exactly the same and just look different.

[humble cargo]

Yeah but there are better ways to write a rpg that allow the player more role play. Like baldurs gate 3 having tav and durge, so you can choose how integral you want your character to be. Or even New Vegas where they give you a main quest, but it doesn’t really determine much about your character. Idk maybe I’m just hoping for too much

[feral viper]

Baldur's Gate and TES are very different sorts of RPGs.

Except for New Vegas, and the less I say about THAT game the better.

[livid ingot]

Well yes it's off topic

And you get the gentlest, most melancholic sound track imaginable,

Sometimes I'm not sure we played the same game. Cyrodiil was the spitting image of an bucolic landscape. The quests were overflowing with naiveté and soaring ideals. It's not a grim game. All those things lurk in the background of course but the dissolving empire is not something that Oblivion is concerned with.

[pale walrus]

Let's vote on it! Who wants the ES6 PC to be:

1. A hero foretold of by prophecy/dreams (like the Nerevarine, the Hero of Kvatch, and the Dragonborn)

2. Some guy who was in the right place at the right time and, thru initiative, energy and cunning, saved the day for everyone (Arena, Battlespire, Redguard, Daggerfall)

Go ahead and vote! Once the vote is in, tabulated, and the final result is announced, there will be.....Cake. 😉

My vote is #2, btw

[livid ingot]

I like #2 but #1 isn't a dealbreaker

[feral viper]

I'm on the flip side. At least in the context of a major crisis. If it can be solved by 'a random nobody' then it's not a big enough concern to car about.

Mythic problems require mythic problem solvers.

But it is something that is inherently more complicated than just A or B. The nature of the story is ultimately what dictates which is more appropriate.

[pale walrus]

I ask you to reconsider. Think of.....gosh, I dunno...Abraham Lincoln. Came from lowly circumstances, but thru natural talent, hard work and great determination, he became a 'man of destiny' who reshaped the land and its future. There are other, larger examples, but I'm sure you're getting the drift of it.

[feral viper]

And that's part of the problem. Oblivion was tonally haphazard at BEST.

It's landscapes were Golden Age Disney

It's character designs were Romanticism meets D&D 1e

It's stories were apocalyptic

It's music was melancholic

[feral viper]

Lincoln also wasn't trying to vanquish the embodiment of the Apocalypse, or a mad God who spread madness like the Plague.

If Lincoln, or any other historical figure, was fighting against Cthulhu, so you think they could rise to the challenge, or would you need a special champion to do the work?

Spoilers, not even Randalf Carter could oppose the Old Ones.

[pale walrus]

Agreed, and I believe you are being kind. Between the soundtrack, the NPCs, the general landscape and artistic style, and finally the stories, ES4 was for me downright soporific. To put it mildly, it was not my favorite. So soft and unthreatening....that game gave me gas.

[feral viper]

I am definitely being kind, in order to keep to the channels rules. My actual opinions are far less... Polite.

[pale walrus]

Actually, that's the fun about a nobody making a profound and lasting impact. Everybody in positions of power, privilege and authority constantly giving the guy a double take and saying "But....how? I mean.......YOU?"

🤣

[wide garnet]

And that’s why we’re getting Skyblivion.

[feral viper]

Don't remind me.

I swear every time I hear about Skyblivion I get another cavity.

[feral viper]

Well, except for Carter and the other 4 who reach Yogg-Sothoth and achieve immortality within their own compression of the eternal everything.

[wide garnet]

Have you tried brushing your teeth more often?

[feral viper]

But, my point was more that... It depends on the type of story being explored. Mundane stories can have mundane heroes. Mythic stories need mythic heroes.

If you have a mythic story that gets resolved by a mundane hero, you neuter the threat. And if you have a mundane story resolved by a mythic hero, you just waste their time.

The sort of story you are exploring, determines which is more appropriate. Therefore, both have equal value.

[feral viper]

Twice a day, and I floss. Doesn't help with the saccharine sweet nostalgia that surrounds that project, or the fact that I don't think Oblivion is worth remembering, let alone remaking.

Even Skyrim's superior mechanics (because Oblivion was, once again, the weakest mechanically) won't fix the core problems with Oblivion, problems which permeate every aspect of its worldbuilding, art, stories, music and design.

[dreamy moat]

Es6 when

[pale walrus]

https://www.gamingbible.com/news/elder-scrolls-6-bethesda-new-rpg-651944-20240911

[feral viper]

Per usual, Gaming Journalism not understanding how Genres work.

Castles is not an RPG. It's a Settle Manager.

[feral viper]

Anyway, to get back to the story topic...

TES typically is not a Linear Game, like God of War. It's not even an Open World Narrative game like Horizon or Wild Hunt. It's an open world with narratives IN that world.

And because of that, I don't think picking between Mythic and Mundane as a preference is even really valid. Because the basic format of how the games are constructed allows for, and almost necessitates, both.

Every story you engage in is, and should be, largely self contained. You step into a role within that narrative, and weave that into YOUR characters story.

Does the Imperial Champion of the Civil War NEED to be a Dragonborn? No. But they COULD be, of you decide your Dragonborn does that.

Similarly, does the Dragonborn NEED to pick a side in the civil war? No, but if you decide yours does, that's part of how you weave that story together.

However, of your character engages in the Civil War, they do NEED to pick a side. And doing so comes with the narrative baggage of exploring that story. Just like if you decide to pursue the main story and fight Alduin, you NEED to be a Dragonborn, and accept the baggage that comes with that narrative.

The beauty of TES is that you have the power, as a player, to weave your own story out of the scraps presented, rather than being given a strict identity directly.

[feral viper]

However, if you don't have both Mythic and Mundane, then you limit those character stories through exclusion rather than imposition.

[pale walrus]

Wait - there is another way.

You show up in HF - maybe as a slave, maybe as a prisoner, maybe as a sellsword, maybe as a member of a traveling minstrel show. Doesn't matter. You come across a problem in Rihad (you've crossed the Cyrodiil border to get there.) In the market, two merchants in stalls next to each other are arguing, and it turns violent. The argument on a superficial level is over the positions of their stalls, but the real conflict between them is their different associations - one who is secretly dealing with an underground criminal syndicate to get below market wholesale prices on goods, the other who is a member of the local Merchant's Guild in competition with the syndicate. Both of these groups are associated with larger groups, themselves part of individual confederations that are the major players in a looming conflict between Mer and Men over control of the province. These confederations and their member factions are performing tasks and executing on plots small and large, including very big plans to employ terrible powers against the other side in pursuit of victory - powers great enough to threaten all of Mundus with conflagration or even annihilation.

But you don't know anything about this at first. You are simply drawn in and act according to your intuition, your desires, your mores and values, your ambitions or your sense of justice. And others begin to notice - a chieftain of one of the Alik'r tribes, a high ranking noble of the Crowns, the mayor of Sentinel, an Elven ambassador (not necessarily Thalmor/Altmer - maybe Dunmer, maybe Bosmer. Like I said - there are factions in the two confederations who have some of their own interests at stake.) And you even begin to attract the amused and intrigued attention of immortal spirits - Aedra and Daedra.

The whole situation is one created by Mer and Men - not something driven by prophecy. But since mortals like elves and men have free will and the Aedra and Daedra ultimately do not, this conflict and its potentially dreadful consequences cannot be controlled by the immortals - only perhaps influenced, and tentatively so at that. So they start competing with each other - some opposing you, others assisting you, some making offers, some making threats, others just watching. In the end, though, the outcome of this conflict can only be decided by mortals. They lack the foresight, wisdom and long term perspective to act judiciously and wisely, and are too influenced by their emotions, petty grievances and lust for ephemeral glory and power. And by random chance, you - an absolute nobody - have stumbled into all of this and become a player; perhaps, thanks to the randomness of complex multivariate events, the key player, one who can tilt the outcome violently to one extreme or another.

Let the immortals be powerless to drive the outcome of this to a certain desired conclusion. Let there be no prophecy for this event, the Elder Scrolls for it be unwritten - until some random schmo like you shows up and, to the shock of everyone, unknowingly begins filling out the text on this scroll.

THIS could be FUN. It breaks the rule of requiring a Legendary Hero of Prophecy to confront the World Consuming Menace. It's a roll of the dice, and everyone is watching, both hoping and dreading.

Takes some real writing skills to weave this kind of story effectively. I would love to see something like this.

[feral viper]

I should clarify.

A Mundane problem is one caused by people. It can still be existential, but at its core the problem is a dude, or something on a natural level.

A mythic problem is something supernatural, beyond mortal existence. A god, or some such.

The Thalmor trying to undo Convention and unmake the world would be a Mundane problem. Because at the end of the day, stabbing someone in the kidney could reasonable solve it.

The HoonDing, on the other hand, would be a Mythic problem.

[pale walrus]

Oh! Ok, that makes sense. 😃 Well, I guess what would really help is if we actually got some hints from BGS about the main storyline of ES6. Should we hold our breaths until they do so? 😉

[feral viper]

I mean, it worked for Space Marine 2... So...

[pale walrus]

🤣 13 years is a long time to hold your breath. Looks like we're going to have to do it a bit longer than Warhammer fans.

[feral viper]

Well, I mean... The original Space Marine released 2 weeks before Skyrim, it's publisher then went bankrupt, and no one ever thought there would be a sequel. And yet, here we are, with Space Marine II having the single most successful launch of any Warhammer game.

And to be honest, Space Marine didn't require the same amount of core work to really make it shine. It was almost perfect in 2011.

So I'm willing to hold my breath a bit longer, if it means TES6 is half as polished as Space Marine II.

But again, Polish comes after functionality. And Bethesda needs to really work on that first.

[feral viper]

Overall point being, I don't think that the games stories need to be one or the other. I think having both is extremely important, because it allows you the player to construct an identity out of the stories you explore, rather than having one imposed on you.

At the same time, I tend to be adamantly against having the story bend to your whim as a player, as that has to date always made a story worse.

[pale walrus]

BGS does 'dial in' the main story's ending, but there are multiple 2nd tier stories that they seem to actually enjoy leaving up to the player to choose their preferred ending. That's great for player choice, but it does leave a lot of 'loose ends' for each title. Example: the skyrim civil war. Example: the assassination of the Emperor. This leaves holes in the lore. I'm not sure this is such a great idea. I'm not going to have a hissy fit if BGS continues this practice, but I would be inclined to reserve those kinds of outcomes to stories that will not have an impact on lore.

[livid ingot]

No one knows.

We don't know what year TES6 will arrive

[pale walrus]

Well, actually, many people don't know when ES6 will release......but SOME people DO.....

https://tenor.com/view/stalking-spying-peaking-peak-hiding-gif-14341063

[acoustic pebble]

Anyone else here think there should be an TES 6 Suggestions-Chat? So that fans may give BGS suggestions to consider in the development process.

[violet lily]

from a community standpoint, love the idea. However, from what I know of how creative companies (and folks like authors) work, that kind of thing would put them into some extremely problematic space legally wrt IP/credit/royalties/etc

[hidden herald]

Many people know where the Dwemer went, but no one is saying

[winter coral]

Ceased to Exist

[feral viper]

Look, the sign said All You Can Eat. They just aren't done yet.

[feral viper]

Indeed. Just look at the mess Ubisoft got into over community contributions to Beyond Good And Evil 2. Creating a direct and verifiable pipeline for interaction on ideas and contributions is a nightmare of future legal problems that just isn't worth it.

[violet lily]

I know that writers/artists etc are often directed to stay away from fanart/fanfic/etc because even if it's years later, if somehow that put a seed down and gets used, the legal situation is a nightmare. I think there's a few authors that have been sued because a fan claimed their idea was stolen/used without credit

[feral viper]

Yeah, it's a whole legal quagmire that just isn't worth it for creatives. Especially if you're engaging in a few particular companies IPs coughNintendocough.

At the same time, it's not in the companies best interest to facilitate that sort of engagement, because they're opening themselves up to problems as well. There is a reason why, when Blizzard ran it's writing contest, the terms and conditions stated that ALL characters in the submission become the legal property of Blizzard. Just in case something became a problem down the road.

Better practice to simply allow the community to talk at themselves, allowing for plausible deniability on the part of the company it's self.