starfield-lore

[keen spear]

1. Literally no one knew the murder happened, that's the point you're missing and you, a freestar deputy, absolutely do something about it.
2. Or maybe the company forged paperwork because no research company just says "Oh yea testing is approved trust us" because again, the doctors thought they had approval for testing.

Again, it's extremely reaching to use both against Darvish

If a murder happened in New Atlantis is it the fault of the president because she didn't swoop down and stop it? No, it's something that happens and again something is done about it. This is not on Darvish because again the very important factor of "The person being treated was a computer and robotics expert that hacked literally the entire system on the Clinic"

[keen lintel]

I mean if it was a UC citizen who did it I would argue it's her fault

[keen spear]

It's not lol

[safe kite]

"One of my employees died/ disappeared, but these things happen. Not my problem."

[umbral grove]

Darvish does nothing about either, that's the problem.

[keen spear]

Very very reaching

[worn pendant]

You can’t even tell him about it which sucks

[keen spear]

You're making stuff up just to say Darvish is bad lol

[keen lintel]

it is tho

[keen spear]

She had no knowledge it happened and you, a law enforcement agent, do in fact go and catch the killer

something is done about it, you literally do something about it. She isn't just shrugging her shoulders, knew about it for weeks. It literally happened because the person you are chasing caught wind of you finding her and activating the defenses

Darvish is bad because she isn't omnipotent apparently

[keen lintel]

was talking about the UC president scenario you did

[umbral grove]

You're trying to tell me that Darvish, a leading doctor and researcher - the head of the Clinic - wouldn't know what a legitimate document would look like? There's a literal member of the Freestar Militia standing guard outside that door, this inhumane (and unsanctioned) research is going on all under Darvish's nose.

Also "person you were chasing"? We were looking for her, but she wasn't actively on the run from us.

Also, the Clinic isn't that large - you don't need omnipresence to realise you're a staff member short 💀

[keen spear]

I think Infinity, a research company, would know how to forge documents for trials given they know what the documents would look like

You're trying very hard to reach a point that isn't very good and your complaint is basically "How dare Darvish not be an all knowing omnipotent being"

[safe kite]

Workers revolt! Down with the oligarchs!

... except Darvish. I will defend them to my death.

[keen lintel]

me when I let people hire my clinic but I don't go have someone check tf they actually doing

[umbral grove]

"I never thought I'd lose a patient on my watch, and here I've lost more than I wish to say. Infinity's legal team has assured me that the contracts the subjects signed keep us clear from any legal repercussions, but since the trial itself is still unapproved, I have a feeling they've little to stand on."

[safe kite]

Tbf, with how much went wrong at the clinic, the administrator and the ranger stationed there should be fired.

[keen spear]

Ok I'll admit I'm wrong on that

[umbral grove]

And again, if a police chief is unaware that someone has murdered a police officer in the jail of his own station, I will hold him accountable.

Same way I will hold Darvish responsible.

[keen lintel]

give it back to the UC as punishment 😭

[keen spear]

The murder point is still extremely reaching is an issue

[keen lintel]

it was originally UC no?

[umbral grove]

Correct

[keen spear]

It was so the UC could try to plant a flag on the system

[safe kite]

Also the clinic is sending supplies to CF xD

[keen lintel]

LMAO

[safe kite]

Legit incompetent administration.

[keen spear]

The clinic is not sending supplies, someone is stealing supplies and sending them to the CF

[keen lintel]

same thing

[umbral grove]

Yeah, but they are unaware of that... not particularly competent, but ehh....

Don't they also send medical supplies to Neon?

[keen spear]

there is a massive difference between the two

[safe kite]

Bruh

They sure do

[keen spear]

Again back to the point of stealing, theft happens a lot, and both of the people doing it are afraid of getting caught and openly say how risky it is

[umbral grove]

But yes. The UC established the Clinic in Narion. The people of Narion said "we don't want it", the UC ignored them, so Narion joined the FC and war broke out.

And after the war, the UC was forced to give up the Clinic to the FC.

[safe kite]

At this point I think you just want to defend darvish at all costs. None of these stances are reasonable xD

[umbral grove]

Just to be clear, I don't think she's a bad individual, but she is unfit to be in command of the Clinic. Then again, so is whats-his-face who represents the Rangers aboard the station.

[safe kite]

Illegal/immoral research, funding terrorists, actual murder. But won't somebody think of the innocent ceo!

[keen lintel]

the FC should just desolve 🤷‍♂️

[keen spear]

He is just there until retirement because the clinic isn't really a high target for anyone

[umbral grove]

Maybe if someone competent was the Ranger we wouldn't have murders, unsanctioned research and thefts going on. 🤷

[keen spear]

One murder by a person who was actively fleeing the scene the moment she caught wind of you and even stole a clinic transport that was docked in the VIP wing

[umbral grove]

This isn't like a full-fledged city, it's essentially an overglorified hospital in space. How can so much go wrong?

[daring lake]

Ben Armistead is their because his wife, who is a nurse there, asked Darvish to make it so. Wifey don't want hubby in the line of fire so close to his retirenent.

[safe kite]

They stole a clinic shuttle, too? Dang, even worse.

[keen spear]

Yea and then a freestar deputy catches the culprit and defeats them, something is done, whoa

[keen lintel]

still her fault

[safe kite]

Weird hill to die on, man. Darvish isn't even hot.

[keen lintel]

Dys lmaoooo

[umbral grove]

Because we were already looking for her

[daring lake]

Well, they have to leave something for "You" to do 🙂

[umbral grove]

Also, been a while since I did the FC, but why wasn't Armistead informed of Cruz?

Or was it all "hush-hush"?

[keen spear]

And as I said she fled because she caught wind of you snooping around, you're making this sound like it didn't happen moments before and was a weeks long event that no one did anything about

[daring lake]

Not his case, but the marshall had called ahead with some details.

[keen spear]

Armistead was told what was known at the time, there's no FTL communications in this setting, there is also Cruz was under a fake identity

[keen lintel]

I don't even know what this discussion is about anymore I thought it was about people being incompetent

also joined mid conversation so that might be on me

[safe kite]

VV Darvish did nothing wrong.

But like with real shaky reasoning.

[keen lintel]

whole ass list of mistakes on the clinic but sure

[keen spear]

The flow of information moves slowly because it's based off of ships delivering information, not FTL communications.

[safe kite]

The game has no less than... 4? separate scandals that involved super illegal things on the clinic, and the administrator is fully innocent each time.

At best, she is incompetent and shouldnt be there.

[umbral grove]

Maybe the Clinic shouldn't have such a policy as "nobody knows who our VIP visitors are except for the person treating them" lol

[keen spear]

Did you miss the point of Cruz used the identity of someone that is supposed to be there?

[keen lintel]

why tf does a healthcare place even have vips 😭

[keen spear]

Americans wrote it

That's a real thing American hospitals have

[keen lintel]

is that why the drinking age on va'ruun'kai is higher than adulthood age? 💀

[safe kite]

"Someone snuck into my hospital under an assumed name. They ended up murdering someone under my employ and stealing one of my shuttles. This is unacceptable, and I take full responsibility and have tendered my resignation effective immediately".

Replace the above with the illegal funding of CF, the illegal research going on, etc.

[umbral grove]

And the Clinic doesn't even verify the VIP is a VIP? 💀

[keen spear]

Again, Cruz is a expert with computers, it's really not farfetched she hacked into the system and altered everything

Which if you play the quest, it's revealed she did just that

[keen lintel]

ok but the leader person is still responsible?

[safe kite]

"Actually the criminal was really good at criminal stuff, so I am staying where I am. Resiognation canceled."

[keen spear]

And then she was found out and got caught

[umbral grove]

Don't they have literal identification cards or some database in Starfield?

[keen spear]

it happens a lot in cybersecurity crimes, it's called investigations!

[umbral grove]

Also why is there a turret in an operating area anyway?

[keen lintel]

.

[keen spear]

Thinks that can be faked and hacked?

[umbral grove]

Sounds like a massive security issue.

[keen spear]

There's no such thing as a hack-proof security system.

You can create safeguards and walls but if someone knows how they can bypass them

[keen spear]

Again the issue here is Darvish not being omnipotent is this issue.

[safe kite]

It's a hospital, not a small country.

[keen spear]

That's why it's reaching

The game explains all of this in detail lol

[keen lintel]

what weird place do you live where a leader of a place is not responsible for said place?

[keen spear]

Most places aren't held responsible when this happens

[safe kite]

Any one of the scandals at the Clinic would warrant a resignation, and there are multiple going on at the same time.

[keen spear]

It's only held responsible if security is proven to be lax, but that's not always the case, sometimes people are just really good at hacking

and again, this didn't go unsolved, you literally solve it because it's your case and your job

[worn pendant]

Not to mention why no alarms went off when the turret started firing or no one heard the weapons fire coming from the VIP wing?

[keen spear]

you're also the one who discovers it.

[umbral grove]

1. Having a turret near an operating room is weird af.
2. Only having the names of certain patients be known only to their specific doctors is weird.
3. Having sections of your hospital sold off to the highest bidder is weird.
4. Having sections of your hospital be restricted to your own staff is weird.

[keen spear]

It's a high security wing where high profile people are kept, of course it would have defenses just like real VIP wings have security guards, otherwise it's a security risk if the VIP gets kidnapped

[umbral grove]

So have a member of the FC militia stationed there?

[keen spear]

and it's not the only place in the clinic with turrets

A member is literally stationed outside the door, did you play the quest lol

[umbral grove]

That's only in the place where they're doing unsanctioned research.

Not the VIP section.

I can give Darvish the benefit of the doubt about the hacking and the name, sure...

But not for the turret in the VIP section, or the selling off of hospital sections for unsanctioned research, or for the lack of an investigation for a (history) of inventory discrepancies, or for doctors being restricted from parts of the hospital for no good reason.

[keen lintel]

???

[keen spear]

Alright I'll agree on some points but others are very reaching

[safe kite]

Worker revolt! Eat the rich! Down with the council!

Oh, hi Darvish. 👉👈 😳

My queen.

Nah. I see it, tbh.

She's kinda cute in a matronly sorta way.

Fully agreed she did nothing wrong.

[keen lintel]

Jinan did nothing wrong

[umbral grove]

"None of us are in this for the credits. We are on the absolute edge of modern medicine, and we are dedicated to helping people no one else can."

-Doctor Darvish

Saying this while having a VIP section and selling off a wing for secret research is... ironic.

[safe kite]

https://tenor.com/view/joe-exotic-tiger-king-the-womans-just-obsessed-with-me-gif-17599673

[keen lintel]

Jinan is like 100x hotter but sure dys

[umbral grove]

"While the Clinic does occasionally take on research projects that have their own chain of command, I am ultimately responsible for the entire facility."

[safe kite]

https://tenor.com/view/everybodys-got-a-past-history-baggage-story-joe-exotic-gif-16707283

[safe kite]

Brutal.

Hung by own petard.

[umbral grove]

Boy it's great to talk Starfield lore, been too long since I could brush up on it

[safe kite]

Fr. As much as I tease some weirdly extreme takes that occur in this discord, it at least spurs on some Starfield discussion.

Like the provable fact that VV did nothing wrong.

[keen lintel]

rune writing the newest testament 😔

[keen lintel]

the zealots are right

[peak halo]

Shes incompetent, not to blame. The UC built the Clinic, it's likely they are the ones that installed the turrets. Not the FC.

A hospital administrator wouldn't be charged with a crime if someone got murdered at their hospital, after the murderer hacks the security system. A law enforcement agent showed up, followed the murderer, and then did their job and took care of the criminal.

At best criminal negligence for the illegal research.

And generally, inventory issues are handled by a different person or group of people than the head of the hospital. Generally, the only time a head would be consulted on supply purchases is if it's for very large single unit purchases, like a new X-Ray machine.

[safe kite]

The zealots are dead.

[safe kite]

Hospital heads have resigned for lesser scandals irl.

If anything like any of the three scandals occurred, there is a high likelihood a resignation would be expected. All 3? The entire staff would be under the microscope.

[keen lintel]

if there are a million zealots, I'm one of them. 💯
if there are 10 zealots, I am one of them. 💪
if there is only one zealot, then that's me. 😔
if there are no zealots, them I'm dead. 😭 👍
if the settled systems is against the zealots, then I'm against the settled system. 🤓

[safe kite]

https://tenor.com/view/todd-howard-gun-gif-11126232804042181486

Your terms are acceptable.

[keen lintel]

crazy

[umbral grove]

1. The UC hasn't been in charge of the Clinic for, what, 100 years? Even if they placed the turrets in the VIP section (which we don't know) Darvish should have removed them.

2. She was totally oblivious to the murder, because her hospital policies restricts access to the VIP wing only to the VIP's doctor. That murder would've gone unnoticed for far too long had we not shown up when we did, all because of policies she made.

3. -settled-

4. I guess that's fair. Though you'd think consistent inventory discrepancies would raise an alarm.

[safe kite]

"Oops my hospital was secretly funding ISIS. But like, I never saw the inventory requests, so it's not on me" - A Hospital CEO, probably.

[peak halo]

Resigned, yes, not been charged with a crime. She's not to blame for the murder, the murderer is. If we hadn't showed up, the criminal likely wouldn't have activated the security system.
If we hadn't showed up and the security system was still activated, then likely the worst Darvish would be charged with is hiding a body.

If anyone is to blame for that doctors death, and it's not the criminals, then its the players fault.

[umbral grove]

Lmfao

[keen lintel]

I would blame her

[umbral grove]

If you hadn't chased her down, my turrets wouldn't have been hacked and killed my colleague, this is all your fault!

[safe kite]

Yeah, that's uh..

Interesting.

"Look what you made me do"

[umbral grove]

Turrets can't kill your doctor if there are no turrets

[safe kite]

Real talk, I dont think Darvish should be charged with a crime. I do think she is responsible for the multiple scandals in her hospital and should resign.

[peak halo]

I'm saying if Darvish is a valid target for blame for that murder, the. The player is more so to blame

[umbral grove]

How? It is Darvish's turret that did the killing.

[keen lintel]

isn't darvish in the government?

[peak halo]

Oh definitely. She should not be in that position any longer

[umbral grove]

Yes, on the Council of Governors.

[keen lintel]

yes so it's her fault

[safe kite]

Like this is the reasonable, unquestionable position everyone should be able to agree on.

70% of this discussion has been "She is blameless and should have no repercussions" which is just wild

[peak halo]

After it got hacked. She's not at fault for her security measure being taken away from it's rightful controller.

[umbral grove]

There shouldn't have been a turret there to begin with.

[peak halo]

Fair.

[worn pendant]

That’s some roundabout way of shifting the blame on the murder of a doctor on someone else

[umbral grove]

Also, how does that makes the PC "more to blame"? Were it not for that turret, Cruz wouldn't have her murder weapon.

No murder weapon -> no murder.

[peak halo]

The person to blame for the murder... Is the murderer.

[safe kite]

Agreed here.

I also dont mind there being turrets there. Idk why they are there. Idk what purpose they serve. But I am not going to say it's negligent for them to exist, either.

[umbral grove]

Obviously.

[worn pendant]

Spacers and zealots likely are what the turrets are for.

[umbral grove]

But this is what you said:

[peak halo]

If

[safe kite]

You would assume, in which case, entirely justifiable for them to be there.

But we dont really know, so it's hard to say either way. "Darvish didn't remove the turrets" or "Darvish installed turrets", whichever way, is kinda a red herring. Nonissue to me.

[umbral grove]

Yeah, so in the case either the PC or Darvish is to blame for the murder, why wouldn't you blame the person providing the murder weapon?

[peak halo]

Because there wouldn't have BEEN a murder if we hadn't showed up.

[umbral grove]

There wouldn't have been a murder without that turret either 🤷

[safe kite]

I do not buy this justification. "Look what you made me do" is not a valid argument.

[peak halo]

The ONLY reason she activated that security system was because we were on the station looking for her

[umbral grove]

Though Cruz also managed to somehow smuggle in a landmine...

[keen lintel]

nah I still blame her and the counsil

[peak halo]

Does she have a gun when you confront her?

(I haven't played in a very long time)

[umbral grove]

Think she does, but by that time she has traveled far away from the Clinic.

[worn pendant]

Honestly she was intending to kill anyone trying to go after her, innocents damned. So that murder is on Cruz. Not the player or the head of the clinic. Though the one in charge of the VIP area is in need of a swift punch in the face.

He’s annoying and incompetent

[umbral grove]

#ReturnTheClinicToTheUC

[safe kite]

Yep. One pulling the trigger is to blame.

Darvish is inept for letting cruz get into that position in the first place. And a courtesy resignation after the fact even if they felt like it wasn't their problem would be expected.

[keen lintel]

the murder is on the council

[umbral grove]

The UC even has a dedicated Health and Human Services branch in MAST.

[keen lintel]

we should give everything to House Va'ruun

as was promised by the Great Serpent

[umbral grove]

But to House Va'ruun, or the Va'ruun Zealots? 🤔

[keen lintel]

the true promised

aka the Children of Jandar or the zealots but we do not use that word around here

[safe kite]

Just as a clarification, the UC was not forced to hand the clinic over. They chose to, when they forced the FC to adopt the 3 systems policy.

The UC won the war militarily, but had internal pressure from is citizens to cut FC slack, thus the Narion Treaty, where the FC agreed to limit its expansion and granted the UC mineral rights on a bunch of worlds in exchange for Narion and The Clinic being handed over to the FC, officially.

The FC essentially bought the clinic in an agreement after the war.

[keen lintel]

ngl I would have dropped the wolf system or whatever the den floats in

[peak halo]

What even is the point of the Den? They rebuilt it just to spite the zealots?

[umbral grove]

But then how will we sell our smuggled good without UC Security finding out? 🤔

[keen lintel]

no just so the Children of Jandar can blow it up again

[keen lintel]

the fleet?

[safe kite]

Man, the zealots can't even properly blow up a party balloon.

[umbral grove]

But we are absolutely "law abiding" citizens of the UC, wouldn't want to get mixed up with those guys.

[keen lintel]

I don't wanna be associated with the UC

[umbral grove]

💯

[keen lintel]

House Va'ruun > nobody > CF > FC > UC

[umbral grove]

You are forgetting LIST smh

[safe kite]

Should probably rebrand as Apartment Va'ruun at this point, tbh.

[keen lintel]

Bro nobody cares about LIST 🥀

[keen lintel]

This is why you're sometimes funny

[umbral grove]

LIST is the most dangerous faction frfr

[keen lintel]

No that's the terran persevation society

My autocorrect has no idea how to write persevation so we just gonna accept this

[umbral grove]

"I will not give you this trophy!"

Can I please have it?

"Okay."

10/10 writing and persuasion.

[keen lintel]

When your intrusive thoughts win

[safe kite]

Tbh, it was an excuse to throw a party and award themselves, and she is 100% going to write off the loss on her taxes.

I actually loved how little she actually cares about the trophy. Peak high society.

[keen lintel]

Better society than the UC fr fr

[umbral grove]

Also, there's something that's been bothering me for a while.

On New Homestead, the whole shtick is that "hur dur, we preserve the real farming methods, without technology!" but... that entire colony only survives because of technology... if that tech fails, that whole place freezes...

Why not settle on Jemison, or some other actually habitable planet if the goal is preserving Earth farming techniques?

[safe kite]

You'd get the same reaction from folks if the collector could be persuaded to give you the artifact.

"I will never part with this! I'd rather die!"

Can I please have it

"Sure you can have it"

[umbral grove]

I know you want to help me.

Now we're getting somewhere.

[safe kite]

They are using the technology of the time, not no technology at all.

[umbral grove]

Fair - but the point stands. New Homestead is screwed if the tech keeping the heat going fails.

[safe kite]

I think the point of new Homestead is to show how old colonies functioned, not necessarily how old earth would function.

[umbral grove]

I'm specifically talking about that farmer dude, btw.

[keen lintel]

With the kid?

[umbral grove]

Yeah, and whose wife kind of wants to go out and see the universe.

[keen lintel]

I shot him

[peak halo]

Why?

[keen lintel]

Bc he's a heathen?

[safe kite]

He's a piece of work. Did you find his note to the teacher for daring to tell his kid about Jemison existing?

[umbral grove]

I vaguely recall it. He
was kind of nice when I first saw him, then turned needlessly hostile for merely speaking to his wife.

[safe kite]

In the running for most dislikable character in the game.

[keen lintel]

Again, he should be killed

[peak halo]

Naseem dislikable?

[safe kite]

Up there with Jinan and Anasko

[peak halo]

Cause it sounds like it.
Who are they again?

[keen lintel]

I think you wrote jarek wrong bestie

[safe kite]

Drug addicts who needed to crawl off into a cave somewhere instead of taking everyone with them.

[peak halo]

I recognize Jinan, I just can't place them. And I don't recognize the other name

[keen lintel]

Don't listen to dys he's drunk

[safe kite]

I don't even drink.

[keen lintel]

That's what a drunk would say

(Same tho)

[safe kite]

I can start any time I want.

[keen lintel]

LMAO

Jandar best character in sf tho, I'll give him my first born

[peak halo]

I haven't played shattered space 🙁

[umbral grove]

I haven't even finished the MQ, ngl

I cut off when I discovered "Space Magic" lol, totally ruined my immersion.

[peak halo]

@umbral grove I just realized we had the head of the Blades here. How did it feel to hear the Emperor died?

[keen lintel]

Blocked

[umbral grove]

Captain Renault should've turned into a car so Uriel could drive quickly to Cloud Ruler smh.

[safe kite]

Get out of this channel, ignorant swine

❤️

[keen lintel]

All you need to know is that Jandar is based

[umbral grove]

Make me 🙂

[safe kite]

Why would you block?

Someone who hasn't played SS can still think HV is cool and not just a shell of its former self whose main goal is literal, physical self destruction.

[umbral grove]

I think it wasn't meant sincerely lol

[keen lintel]

If the serpent wants it so be it

[keen spear]

No blade agent will ever be as cool as Caius Cosades

[umbral grove]

Imo, Vae Victis did nothing wrong during the Colony War. At least, not without reason.

[novel sparrow]

Orval Romack is that you?

[umbral grove]

Lmao

But for real though

His bombing of the Londinion Spaceport, even if bad, was done rationally.

And attacking FC civilian ships when they entered combat is valid.

[safe kite]

Very true.

[peak halo]

Civilians taking up arms against a military force I believe makes them a valid military target. A civilian militia just means they don't have formal military training, not that they aren't valid military targets.

[safe kite]

They 100% were valid targets.

[umbral grove]

Exactly

[keen lintel]

Real cuties shoot civilians with or without them taking up arms

[static grail]

Is there any lore where food comes from?
Besides "the local chunks restaurant"

[safe kite]

Any food in particular you are curious about?

There's a Centauri Mills plant in Gagarin, a brewery in Akila, wheat farms outside Akila, a meat packing plant on tau ceti, etc.

[static grail]

just general
how is the whole universe fed

[static grail]

especially meat, I didn't see any livestock out there

[peak halo]

Pre-colony war, the Asceles were the primary meat source for the United Colonies.
Well, actually synth meat was the main foodstuff pre-war, with the real stuff being used to fill shortages.

[safe kite]

Unsure about primary, but ranched to extinction.

The majority of meat products are synthetic, but aliens are used as livestock here and there. The Tau Ceti crew restarting the aceles plant in the first Vanguard mission were jumpstarting a new livestock operation with native aliens. Also see the Groats of Varuunkai.

Pretty much all of the meat products you pick up as items are "Butcher's Best" brand synthetic meat.

I don't think any of their manfacturing plants are in the game, but they are presumed to exist and would be fairly widespread with how widely distributed their products are.

https://inara.cz/starfield/item/452/

Alien 'meat' that you can cook with (Alien jerky, alien kebabs, etc) is just labeled as 'Nutrients' in your inventory.

[weak hemlock]

You know what bugs me? Nova Galactic's staryard was apparently abandoned in a hurry.

They'd have likely been one of the first r groups to know about the effects of the Grav Drives, no? So why then does it look like everyone departed in a hurry despite (apparently) being mid-workday and mid-construction of a ship?

[safe kite]

Nova Galactic survived well into the exodus of humanity. Unsure why they closed up shop, but they were the main supplier of drives and ships for the colonists evacc'ing earth.

As to why the staryard is abandoned (and evidently quickly), if you have ever seen pics of the Sears HQ irl, it's a similar situation. Once a company folds, it can do so abruptly, and the rank and file employees have zero reason to leave in an orderly fashion, or take anything of value with them. They just go home and figure out their own situation once the word goes out they aren't getting paid anymore.

[weak hemlock]

This doesn't make any sense though. During The Old Neighborhood Sarah says "...Earth and everything around it was abandoned a long time ago." This implies that NG shut down around the time Earth was dying or just after. But I've been part of several business shutdowns, and for most of them, you are notified. Sears is not a good example here as many people--employees included--either didn't believe the state the company was in or were assured it wasn't as bad as media and the public made it out to be.

NG had plenty of warning, they were even making the evac ships, so there's no reason everything looks like people came into work and then just left. They knew roughly when they'd need to leave--not exactly, obviously, since it was 53 years since the public announcement and the actual death of Earth--but they knew roughly, and they had a ship in construction. There'd be enough time for them to construct the last ship, since they had plenty of supplies, and then use that to evac everyone on the station.

They had time to pack, they had time to keep everything neat and tidy.

[daring lake]

You make it sound like there was a reason for them to stay and keep going. And the new colony would have needed engineers. Stay in orbit around a dead world? Or go and help humanity become established on a new world?

[keen spear]

That or space weather made them abandon it, it is kiiiiind of an oversight why it wasn't explained but there's some reasons you can establish why

[safe kite]

There'd be enough time for them to construct the last ship, since they had plenty of supplies, and then use that to evac everyone on the station.

What is this assertion based on? Because there's a bunch of situations where that wouldn't be the case:

The station did not have enough supplies to finish the in-progress ship.
Future shipments to the station were not coming in.
There was not enough provisions to support the personnel needed to finish construction.
The workers were unwilling to finish the in-progress ship for a defunct company that stopped paying them.
The station was threatened and people were forced to evacuate early.
The in-progress ship would not have been large enough to support the evacuation of the station.
The in-progress ship was owned by someone else who wouldn't have let them use it to evacuate.
They already had other ships to leave the station with, meaning finishing the in-progress ship was moot.

Pick any one of those.

What we do have is the environmental storytelling showing us that the staryard closed up shop in a seemingly quick manner, and left projects unfinished. The process of deduction, then, requires us to answer "Is there any plausible explanation as to why this happened?". And yes, there are dozens of plausible explanations. The game doesn't elaborate further and it's on us to fill in the blanks.

Jumping to "It makes no sense" and "They would have had the time, materials, ability, and inclination to finish all their work before leaving" is based on a lot of assumptions we have zero evidence for, specifically to refute the few bits of information we do have evidence for.

[worn pendant]

Could have been the guy in charge of the station got arrested for money laundering, everyone decided to grab as much stuff as possible and leave while it was gonna get shut down for the pending investigation lol.

[modest drum]

Is there a good list of ships commonly used by faction and even better by company/corporation (not necessarily manufacturer, but the companies that use them like CeltCorp, Galbank, Ryujin, etc? I'm working on a mod that will contain a lot of shipwreck POIs and I want to make them as lore friendly as I can.

Looks like some ships have the faction in the name, but others don't

Well I found some lists of corporations along with factions, and I can simply try to align some ships by function to what the company might use ships for. CeltCorp sells and manages mining equip so the various industrial and trade ships make sense

[random yoke]

frankly burning down the FC is a public service.

[umbral grove]

The leadership of the FC is terrible

[keen spear]

The leadership of every faction is terrible lol

UC is run by a council that demands service to reach citizenship with a gated utopia as a reward while the rest of the faction's holdings are poorly run, underdeveloped and under financed. House Va'ruun is run by a oligarchic council under a religious authority that is so convinced everyone hates them they work towards removing any trace of their home system from star maps alongside the fact that they do nothing to actually improve their standing in the settled systems, crimson fleet is a crime organization with Delgado having delusions of building a new society but the other captains just want to carve out the systems into their own crime rings

Even Naeva doesn't really support the idea of building a new political power with the fleet

Which ya know that's what happened when pirates in real life wanted to carve out their own little nation in the Caribbean that failed because most pirate captains didn't really work together

UC is literally just building reasons for its resource and production sectors to just implode with people revolting. Cydonia is dirty and falling apart to the point they count accidents by the hour, Gargarin was underdeveloped for so long after the colony war ended mech production and only just now is getting any attention from companies moving in with the execs trying to create a divide between them and the working class and of course the joke that is the UC making the Wolf system their third system where it's just a terrible lil space station where the only thing there is a trade authority rep who is making use of the fact it isn't really patrolled and a barkeep who is so ultra nationalistic it's destroying his business lol

[keen lintel]

house va'ruun is run by a oligarchic council under a religious authority

Based?

[keen spear]

Basically everyone sucks, except L.I.S.T., the least problem faction

[novel sparrow]

'Everyone sucks' is basically how most modern games design their factions

[safe kite]

'poorly run, underdeveloped, under financed' [citation needed]

[safe kite]

Cydonia is an industrial colony, certainly, but there's little evidence it is falling apart. They have negative unemployment. Cramped, but available residential areas, community areas, most people who you talk to there seem to like it.

Gagarin Landing is less underdeveloped and more their primary export was recently banned. The populace is actively hostile to new firms moving in, so not really a 'no one wanted to redevelop it' situation.

'Terrible lil space station', honestly not sure where the terrible is coming from.

[peak halo]

I mean... The ONLY reason the Den is there is to spite the zealots who burned the first one down

[safe kite]

At worst I would call it 'quaint'

[keen spear]

"recently banned" it's been like 19 years for Gargarin, that's enough time to have invested and rebuild and yea Cydonia is filled with issues from corruption to lack of adequate living spaces to understaffed. That's the entire point of the red tape quest line. The governor is corrupt, the miners are poorly equipped, the staff for the offices are overworked and so behind they can't even properly get through actually hiring people and the head of mining operations is a person who got the job through connections and then proceeded to not even understand how to log into his own terminal, not to mention so unsafe they count accidents by the hour instead of by the days which is common for industrial jobs. By the hour means that the standards for safety are so low they have to count them by a lower metric

The UC is not portrayed as a good place to live for a lot of people. The one good place is New Atlantis as long as you aren't in the well which is also a cramped, dirty and rundown area.

[keen spear]

And now it's a tiny little nothing space station that sees barely any patrols or trade, has two businesses with one going under and has like three vanguard pilots that are stationed there, the two you always see and the one from Andreja's quest line

[keen spear]

Tbf that's basically how it was handled in the 90s with a lot of rpgs

Like none of the options in Daggerfall were really good because well everyone wanted to use a giant brass golem to take over their neighbors or Morrowind where the empire and the great houses suck

[wind yoke]

Kudos to Bethesda for portraying humans realistically. Wealth right next door to poverty, corporations stronger than governments, resource mismanagement, corruption everywhere, slums that should be condos, condos that should be slums, and everyone only out for money. Sound familiar?

[near slate]

Let's keep it appropriate in here please 😅

[stiff mango]

darn I missed it. Can you summarize?

[safe kite]

https://tenor.com/view/princessbride-sumup-explain-montoya-gif-5672683

[ionic meadow]

idk if it has been discussed already, but how do those crypto credit tanks and credsticks of GalBank work? Gonna come clean: while working in IT, I haven't really touched blockchain technologies, have never worked in this field.

I get the idea of credsticks being some crypto cold wallets or whatever they are called IRL, storing some creds, though. Still, why use the multiple credsticks containing like 100-500 creds?

Not entirely related, but pricing is all over the place and is inconsistent between lore and gameplay entirely. I played without mods up until that one main quest with severe consequences, and had already noticed that by that point.

[keen spear]

I imagine for cred tanks they're mostly big servers containing all the data of the credits, Barrett mentions they're also extremely old and not used anymore, I imagine they're earlier methods of keeping the algorithms creds supposedly used with credsticks being a new method.

We don't really know much about credits themselves or if they're even crypto based but just financial information stored on basically a high tech USB. There is mention of the fleet having some kind of crypto algorithms when you hand Toft evidence but it's never mentioned that's what creds actually are

Credits in sci-fi are themselves way older than the concept of blockchain technology and we don't really hear that the blockchain is utilized on an institutional level in starfield, it's possible credits are just like credit/debit cards (which is why sci-fi uses that term, it started when people thought credit cards would replace paper money entirely)

[daring lake]

Creds are encrypted. So yes, they are crypto. ICBW but feel that Shinya Voss also talks about them. Delgado too I think ...

[keen spear]

Most financial information is encrypted lol

Crypto's whole deal is anyone can make a currency if they build enough servers because it's just random numbers that people trick themselves into believing have value. That would make no sense given all credits are produced by galbank, if someone could just make a currency it would mean that galbank's centralized monopoly would not work.

Like I said the crypto could be the fleet's own thing, it's never expanded on nor is it ever actually said to be that Galbank's credits are crypto, especially since crypto is very unreliable and resource intensive as opposed to just digitized currency which is basically what credit cards or prepaid cards are, it's adding more steps and resources for something that in the end isn't as secure as people think it is.

[safe kite]

Credstick are a physical cold wallet and credits are a cryptocurrency operated by Galbank, is my read. I don't think when you pick up a 100 credit stick you are pocketing it, but you transfer the contents to your own. Block chain would be one of the few currency methods that would work without ftl comms, as Galbank would be able to run it asynchornously and just disperse updates as people connect and reconnect to the various networks across the Settled Systems.

This would also explain the immediate payment for bounties and mission rewards. IE: Your reward is preauthorized in escrow on the chain, and you submit proof of completion which automatically unlocks it. When you reconnect back to civilization, the reward-giver receives the confirmation and checks if it is valid. That's my headcanon for the very likely just game mechanic element of instant rewards, anyway.

Most of this is speculation, mind, as there isn't a lot of explanation. Credits being crypto is a lore fact the game establishes, though.

[keen spear]

If it was on the blockchain than that means every transaction would be monitored and logged because that's what crypto does, hence why anytime you see a ransomware story where the cybercriminals ask for crypto they get caught immediately, it's incredibly easier to trace crypto transactions than it is with regular digital transactions

why is this a problem? It's because we have a case of someone intercepting transactions, creating ghost credits and then moving the real credits to a different account. That was what Dumbrosy, Swist and Vera were doing. That's why it doesn't really work as just saying it's crypto, there's also you can just clone or mine crypto, that's why it starts to fall apart. Meanwhile if it's digitized currency, which isn't blockchain based, it wouldn't require a connection to something.

If it's digitized and sends out pings every time you enter a system with a galbank service it makes sense how galbank keeps a constant record of your money. Maybe the wallet is built into ships? We honestly don't know. That's the issue, we know crypto exists and that's it, but as far as I've seen there's not really anything saying credits are crypto because again, that would ruin galbank's monopoly on all currency because someone could just make their own coin like we see in real life.

[ionic meadow]

Yeah as far as I remember credits in Starfield are described as cryptocurrency in Crimson Fleet questline.

@keen spear it appears to be a plothole, yes. Maybe there are some accords that make GalBank the only emitent of currency.

I wonder where are any other banks lol. I get the idea that Starfield's colonies are mere representations of real-sized settlements, but I do not remember any other financial institution. Which is kinda weird.

[keen spear]

Galbank canonically has a total monopoly on all banking and currency, well except astra but only the underworld uses that.

[safe kite]

Ransomware has nothing to do with cryptocurrency. Ransomware attacks involve encrypting storage and then ransoming the owner for the key to unlock it. The ransom is usually demanded in cryptocurrency specifically because they are hard to trace.

Cryptocurrency is 'monitored and logged' in that the underlying algorithm is open source and visible to everyone, but any wallets and every transaction is uncontrolled, cannot be rescinded, and cannot be governed by a central agency. IE: Galbank would not be able to track and deny someone using the credit network.

I'd recommend reading up on blockchain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockchain

[keen spear]

Like I'm saying I still see nothing that states credits are crypto, just that the fleet has crypto.

[ionic meadow]

What I am sure of is that Settled Systems agreed on some sort of piggybacking system for data transmission, the other alternative being burning He-3 for just message transfer.

[ionic meadow]

Can you share where it is mentioned?

This seems weird, as Freestar Collective surely would want complete independency, and House Varuun are almost cut off from the rest of settled systems culturally, financially and logistically

[safe kite]

yeah, headcanon is ships make jumps and carry messages, either intentionally (Galbank, star parcel ships) or ad hoc with privately owned ones.

[keen spear]

I just realized Shinya Voss makes little sense entirely if there is no FTL communication so how can he remotely access anything galbank has or do stuff to make sure no one finds us like he claims if you side with sysdef

[safe kite]

There isn't a rule that Galbank can be the only financial institution that I am aware of, only that it is the main player, and has survived to become the de facto, due to operating the credit network and remaining unbiased and neutral.

[keen spear]

Yea galbank is just the one who won and became the sole finacial provider in the settled systems. I imagine they would probably do stuff to squash anyone who tried to compete because you kinda can't at this point.

[safe kite]

Isn't explain, but headcanon is he is fuzzing transactions from stolen ships/credstiks the CF bring back and making them look legitimate. He wouldnt have access to anything outside Kryx. I suppose he could prepare data packages and have a CF or third party jump it to other systems, etc.

[keen spear]

The more you think about credits the less it makes sense and starts having problems with other stuff it turns out lol

[ionic meadow]

Yeah. I think that's how it can operate. Some sort of in-system copy can be modified, then it syncs up with the closest master db server lol.

Still, Shinya is likely a remnant from earlier iteration of lore development

[safe kite]

Confirmed that Shinya fuzzes the transactions 'to keep the crypto-tracing on the currency clean'. Minor plot hole, since HV uses credits openly. Maybe they have their own Shinyas scrubbing the details.

[ionic meadow]

They hint at having significant numbers of embedded agents all over the main factions and corporations. Maybe they launder money more "traditionally", while Fleet does not care enough, having hackers modifying the tracings

For example, who even keeps track of all LIST settlements?

[keen spear]

Yea they should've made Reckoners like a minor faction within the fleet with Shinya being their captain instead of just making it seem Shinya does it on his own

[safe kite]

Doing more digging on the topic. Credits are heavily encrypted by Galbank and Shinya specializes in decrypting it.

[ionic meadow]

Imagine having to jump into Alpha Centauri to smuggle a couple of CF hackers.

[keen spear]

I mean for LIST the thing is, no one, they just give people places to go which kinda led to the whole three families issue where Lopez arrived in a system first and then didn't like that others were staking a claim so he started ripping them off

[safe kite]

Credits are a crypto-currency confirmed.

Evidently with the cold wallets wrapped in extra encryption.

[keen spear]

LIST doesn't even have up-to-date star maps which a SSNN story says when one family of colonists were given coordinates to a world and the world just didn't exist

[ionic meadow]

So, basically Shinya or whoever is the current Reckoner is a specialist in reverse-engineering.

i wonder what exactly was wrong with "if I was a Varuun agent I'd sure use LIST to my advantage from time to time" message

[safe kite]

Sounds like it.

Basically, following the lore facts:

Credits are crypto. Credits are stored digitally on physical medium. Credstiks and credtanks.
Galbank can and actively does encrypt the contents of physical medium itself, requiring ciphers and decryption.
Galbank does encrypt credtanks in transit.
Shinya can decrypt the encryption on the physical mediums. He also scrubs transactions to make them look legitimate.
Some form of crypto-tracing exists that Galbank can use. It isn't clear what that is.

This answers pretty much all the questions, tbh. HV can still operate freely, if it's a crypto-currency, as it would be fairly anonymous and decentralized if it is similar to modern crypto networks. They would just have to account for the 'crypto-tracing', whatever that is, which they evidently solved, since GalBank seems unaware of Dazra.

CF requires Shinya in order to crack physical cold wallets and siphon off the funds in a legitimate looking way.

[keen spear]

the bot is sometimes weird

[safe kite]

Since we can just scoop up a credstik and yoink the currency, we can probably safely infer that encrypting the cold wallets is reserved for large transfers and containers.

I suppose the 'crypto-tracing' could be from the outer layer of encryption rather than the credits themselves. Like they send an SOS if they get tampered with.

Not to mention they'd need someone with Shinya's skills to keep the crypto-tracing on the currency clean.

[ionic meadow]

Thank you, that is really informative. As for any banks other than GalBank, maybe Freestar being a libertarian confederation could not agree on any laws protecting their own banks, and they just almost vanished. The scope of the game's settlements makes little sense for two or more banks, I get it, but still, would be interesting.

The only question left hanging is what is exactly an Astra? There is zero to none info in-game on how it worked other than being very precious.

[safe kite]

Well, we'll share this information with GalBank. Hopefully, it will help them shore up the security on their crypto-currency.

[keen spear]

Fair enough I'll admit I'm wrong

[safe kite]

Found this during the dig, too.

Astra was created during the Narion War, by folks who thought the banks would fail, as a privately minted physical currency. It is still in use in 2330 by black markets due to being untraceable.

[ionic meadow]

maybe a software analogue of some burning fuses, lol. Like, this exact credit now was a "tampered" flag set to true, so no transaction.. I don't know if it could be implemented, but still.

[keen spear]

Astra I imagine is probably platinum from the look, especially since platinum is rare and malleable

If only it was gold pressed latinum

[safe kite]

I was hoping you'd ask. Back during the Narion War, there was some serious concern that the banks were going to fail.
So, some enterprising individuals took matters into their own hands and started minting their own currency, Astras, just in case the worst came to pass.
Anyway, Astras are rare, but they're out there. Still used in some black market circles since they're untraceable by any government.

[ionic meadow]

@keen spear maybe some kind of a special alloy is used too. Idk, when you have interstellar travel and the technology to set up a mining outpost in a day or two and mine the platinum, refine it and mill the Astras, you'd need something else to protect the currency from being faked all the time

[safe kite]

Yeah, I don't think their materials is what's giving them their value, though it likely is platinum.

Maybe it has a specific type of isotope blended into it or some other method of fraud detection. But also, it failed as a currency, and is treat basically as a novelty, now, so shrug

[keen spear]

I wish they did add more stuff to make astra useful instead of one merchant that basically acts as a loot box

[high copper]

Surley there would be some others who see Astra with more value and would gladly trade stuff, maybe more off the grid as they don't want any connections to galbank

[ionic meadow]

Yep. From the trade authority to pirates and Ecliptic should use them somehow, though some means of currency conversion would be needed. Imagine if Varuun agents use astras in shady deals with smugglers

[high copper]

I do wonder if it's possible to change the currency or have seperate currency's with the CK, so you don't just have the credits, I think that would have helped alot with the House Va'ruun immersion

[ionic meadow]

they kinda were pushed out of the market by GalBank creds before being adopted in any way, from what I pieced together in-game

[safe kite]

I think the credit was already a thing by the Narion War. Could be wrong though.

[devout knot]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I have a creations lore question., which I'm sure this has come up before. When a creation, such as Watchtower or Vigilance, is added and has the "Lore Friendly" tag, does that mean that it just has subject matter that could exist in the world, or does that tag mean that it does exist or is corroborated by the lore in some way? With Starfield being a new IP for BGS I just love the idea of certain creations actually adding to the lore, such as how certain player made events in Helldivers 2 become actual lore. What are everyone's thoughts?

[high copper]

Id say it’s similar to other lore friendly tags, just something that can be plausible within the game, The Escape creation from Bethesda, since it’s an option addon, I would say it’s not entirely canon but something that could happen

[devout knot]

That makes sense. I do hope however that with certain, larger creations such as Watchtower that BGS incorporates what that creation brings to Starfield in some way canonically. Watchtower is genuinely such a cool faction idea

[safe kite]

Respects the existing lore, but is not canon.

Until BGS adopts it officially, if ever.

[stiff mango]

It's a multiverse. Maybe everything is canon, even contradictory things.

[keen spear]

They get around it by them being secret societies basically, idunno about Vigilance but I can actually believe it for watchtower, especially in a setting where there's rogue research groups or the fact there's so many unclaimed planets that a secret society could form into a massive secret military

I haven't touched Vigilance yet

[stiff mango]

https://i.imgur.com/NlynZ2j.png

[keen spear]

Honestly starfield is the bethesda setting with the most loose lore friendly rules compared to TES and Fallout lol

[safe kite]

Canon is whatever BGS adds to the game, officially.
The existence of a multiverse does not imply that everything that can be conceived, is canon.

[high copper]

The baseline universe you start in is well the base for what stuff can actually be canon

[safe kite]

Multiverse in general is often misunderstood to mean 'everything conceivable must exist in some alternate reality'. There are a good number of multiverse theories currently and none of them suggest that.

[stiff mango]

Well, Bethesda didn't add my character to the game, I did. So I guess nothing that happens in my game is canon if I was present when it happened.

OTOH, Bethesda added the "resurrect" command to the game.

[cyan shell]

My interpretation of the lore friendly tag is that the content wouldn't be too out of place if it existed in the base game. Can't speak for Watchtower but for Vigilance a lot of the more advanced technology they use is rooted in established lore (House Va'ruun experimented with teleportation and ships have energy shields for example).

Starfield is also full of strange phenomena and mysteries like the fractured timeline from experiments on an artifact and Starborn abilities/technology.

[devout knot]

All these explanations make sense to me. Their official position is probably just the “this creation is not out of the realm of possibility” which is fine. I’m weird about the actions I take in the game actually meaning something canonically and so I always hope that BGS will adopt some of these creations as actual lore for my weird OCD reasons lol

[cyan shell]

Would be cool but I doubt it would ever make it past their legal team even with the creators approval and contracts

[worn pendant]

So how much stuff do the corporations in the Freestar collective can get away with without getting into trouble? Ik the HopeTown situation was an extreme case of FC citizens getting killed by a conspiracy but what about non-FC citizens and in other places?

[stiff mango]

Watchtower's tech is a good approximation of what you'd get if Nishina had a whole intact Armillary to study, instead of just one Artifact. And then got funded by Ron Hope.

[daring lake]

All of the corps. in both UC + FC get up to all the shenanigans. Illegal human trials/experiments, murder, corporate espionage etc.

[keen spear]

FC just has less red tape for corporations to set up, that's why the FC is home to like a majority of corporations

[ashen seal]

Thoughts about Starborn Power Enhanced Humans, I’m gonna take a shot in the dark and say, after coming into contact with the artifacts and the temples, our character’s physiology changes and they can run on little to no sleep at all and they really only sleep or eat because they like it.

[safe kite]

I don't think the polity they form under matters all that much when any corp can go to an unclaimed system and be completely unregulated, for the stuff that goes on there.

[worn pendant]

So what music exists in Starfield?

[high copper]

rock and orchestral, looking at posters and ingame music

[daring lake]

On the money Scarlet. The physiological changes are noted by Noelle (sp?) and by the scan mentioned by Tuala at the start of the Vanguard stuff. These changes are mentioned before "You" goes through their first Unity trip. The way that the base game is designed means that sleep and food are not needed, but we can make changes to game settings to make those things necessary. So maybe "no food or sleep at all" may be stretching things a bit. But all "You" are certainly no longer regular Human after the Unity.

[stiff mango]

and Sarah's statement that she was in a rock band

[ashen seal]

Yeah, but we’ve also got to consider the people that don’t cross the unity.

[daring lake]

Yes. Which is why I said "... changes are mentioned before "You" goes through their first Unity trip."

[ashen seal]

ah

[eternal scaffold]

so where did Sebastian Banks go? We got any hints about that?

[keen spear]

Nope none, even the artifact at the lodge showed up after him disappearing. It's a mystery.

[novel sparrow]

Do we think the mystery is going to be revealed in the next DLC? Place your bets

[stiff mango]

There's more than one mystery. I do not think they will all be revealed in the next DLC.

Or even the next game.

[keen spear]

Bethesda loves their mysteries

[peak halo]

What happened to the Entwives?

[keen lintel]

huh?

[peak halo]

Not even Tolkien knew

[keen lintel]

oh that

[peak halo]

Tolkien some mysteries are necessary to make to world believable.

[keen spear]

Yup that's Bethesda's take as well. Why things like Akavir, magna-ge, the creators, the Eldritch stuff in fallout, etc etc aren't fully explained

We know more about the dwemer than we do the akaviri for instance

Or stuff like the leadership caste of groups like ecliptic or how many times a starborn like the emissary or the hunter have gone through the cycle

Or the greatest mystery. Why has no one stolen a chasmbass from Neon and just make their own aurora farm

[novel sparrow]

Those mysteries in other Bethesda games are mostly side content. Starfield has a lot of mysteries in its main quest

[keen spear]

Nah the mysteries of the dwemer are directly tied to Dagoth Ur, the heart and the tools of Kagrenac. Same with the Akaviri when you take into account Alduin's Wall that was built into an Akaviri built temple for the Blades who themselves started as an esoteric order of dragon hunters, Ayleids with the red diamond and the purpose of white-gold. Multiple stuff we barely understand are left mysteries and still part of the main story

Alduin's Wall also predicts Tharn, the warp in the west, the sixth house cult and the oblivion crisis as well as the civil war in Skyrim and the end of the Septim line

Like it's one thing to know a prophecy another to accurately depict the five events leading to it. They didn't even inscribe the house dagoth symbol it was full on the artificial god Akulakhan that Dagoth Ur was building

Like I said Bethesda loves their mysteries

[astral timber]

Hoping this is the place to ask this: I'm looking for a planet with the following characteristics

1. an inhospitable atmosphere - high/low temperature, toxic or corrosive atmosphere, solar radiation, preferably all 3

2. has life, specifically a predatorial species

3. the predatorial species are burrowers

Anyone knows a planet like that, I'd appreciate it 🙏

[peak halo]

'inhospitable atmosphere'
'has life'
?

If there are planets like that, then they are using the term inhospitable wrong. It basically means life cannot exist without external support. Like the middle of the antarctic. Or the moon. Or Venus.

[astral timber]

Inhospitable to humans anyway

I know there are planets that have alien life but the air isn't breathable

[peak halo]

I don't know any planets like that, but you could check the Starfield Compendium, it might have the answer

[keen lintel]

I think you can't breath on Tau Ceti VIII-b but there are aliens there

or one of the other moons that big blue giant has

[astral timber]

https://starfieldcompendium.com/ Well this wasn't very helpful 😕

Doesn't list out the critters on each planet with life

[stiff mango]

yeah, those sites just list what resources you can get from the critters.

[fallow whale]

Would www.inara.cz be more help?

[stiff mango]

Yeah, if you're looking for the specific critter, Inara will show it.

Which IMHO is actually less help, because what you really want to know is where, and you gotta click through the critter. 😄

But yeah, you can get there from Inara a couple of directions.

[static grail]

the Starfield wiki also has all critters listed (but you aren't actually looking for critters, are you?), but no categories for the planetary conditions

[daring lake]

Jaffa IV fits 3 of the 4 criteria. The Lizards predate on each other, but do not burrow. And the sandstorms will kill you if you are not careful 🙂

Also, have a look at the planet in Denebola, the one with the Mantis stuff.

[astral timber]

Yeah Inara is maddeningly unhelpful. Lists every critter and the resources you get from them, says the resources vary by planet, but doesn't list the planets 😓

[astral timber]

Starfield wiki is better in that it lists the planets so I can click thru to check their climates. And there's a Fauna category list so I can find the predators by checking all the Hunting ones

But it doesn't specify whether they burrow

[astral timber]

Will check them out, thanks 👍

[dire meadow]

I use the https://starfieldalmanac.com to plan content. It doesn't have all the systems listed yet, but it's still pretty useful

[astral timber]

It could be once it catalogues every system, thanks 👍

Anyway I found the planet I want in Gunibuu II 😄

I found an entry for a Hunter Angler Stalker in Starfield wiki that stated Ambusher behaviour - I took a chance that meant it's a burrower

And the planet is perfect too - corrosive atmosphere and weak magnetosphere

This is for a quest mod I'm planning to work on in which there's an ambush by burrowing critters btw

So thanks for everyone's help 🙏

[peak halo]

Heck yeah

What's the objective? Wanna make a hostile world outpost?

[astral timber]

Sort of - an outpost where the player gets ambushed by burrowing creatures

And for story purposes it needs to be an inhospitable planet

[peak halo]

Oki

[astral timber]

So I wanted to find the right planet for it

[peak halo]

Making a mod?

[astral timber]

Yup but I need to finish my current WIP first, a player home

[peak halo]

Oki

[stiff mango]

Will the player home have a button that, when pressed, causes the home to be invaded by burrowing creatures?

[peak halo]

Ooh, like a 'thumper' from Mass Effect/Dune, or an alarm that summons them

(I think a thumper would be thematic for burrowing creatures.)

[astral timber]

Nah 🤣 These are separate unrelated projects

Tho I think I'm gonna need help on my current project related to importing Blender models into the game

[daring lake]

You would get a better response posting this in the general chat rather than the lore channel. That said, you don't have to build an outpost at all. But if you do build one make it something you need. Like a crafting base, or just one to do ship builds etc. Or maybe you would just like to build a home for "You" ... There is no "meta" location.

[stiff mango]

This being the lore channel, the first bases were on Earth obviously, since humans were to the best of our knowledge born here, but perhaps consider Luna instead.

[royal badge]

What are starborn

[novel sparrow]

people who have crossed the unity and ended up in a different universe. They were basically born again

[royal badge]

How

[static grail]

Well, that is the big mystery of the game

[keen spear]

We don't know that yet, might be expanded on in a dlc or a sequel game

[daring lake]

Apart from Unity "You" telling us how it works, we know nothing 🙂

[stiff mango]

Control of gravity seems to be involved, and using it to create wormholes.

[uneven osprey]

That a thing that I love with Starfield, it's a new licence and there are lots of to discover

[rapid rose]

i agree
as much as I wish BGS would hurry up with the new stuff
im at the very least excited to see what new things they have been working on for the base game and expansions

[ashen seal]

https://tenor.com/view/crash-bandicoot-dance-cartoon-fox-gif-9071491

[worn pendant]

So does anyone know how long that cloning thing has been going on for on the Crucible?

Decades? A century? More than that?

[weary bolt]

I am confused by this:
The unity can take you to the next universe. You need artifacts to "open it". Are artifacts one time use, so no one can use them once spent?

[stiff mango]

IMHO it's unclear whether they Dragonball Z out across the universe and must be rediscovered, or just stay behind leaving the Unity open to all. It is clear that people who don't go through with you can go through later.

I personally subscribe to the DBZ theory.

[daring lake]

The Artifacts may not be unique. In other words, a set in each universe. But it is clear imo that the Armillary is left behind for others to use.

[stiff mango]

It can't just be sitting there open, otherwise the Emissary would never agree to give us their artifacts. They say that we have earned passage, not that we've earned the right for everyone in the universe to have passage forever.

[safe kite]

It is established that members of constellation follow you.

It is also established that the Unity doesn't discriminate or only allow those who have 'earned' it through (if you take the Hunter at his word)

The Emissary could simply have their goons sit outside the portal and shoot anyone they don't want through.

Basically the Emissary's behavior doesn't suggest any unity mechanics.

We know the Armillary needs to be assembled from artifacts in every universe we have seen.

We know that the Armillary remains accessible in some way after you go through the first time.

We know that the first person to touch an artifact in each universe is granted visions and altered biologically.

Everything after that is kinda up in the air with no definitive answers.

I don't think it needs to be reassembled for each person though. There's nothing suggesting that and that you can walk away and return at any time suggests the opposite.

[peak halo]

Who says the armillary stays open? The only evidence I saw of others making the trip are those on your ship. Everyone else stays behind. In addition, if it stayed open over where you jumped into the Unity: now there is an anomaly of unknown science in orbit of Jamison, or Neon, or Akila. Or some random place in the settled systems that almost no-ones would find

[safe kite]

The unity confirms that members of constellation follow you through. They do not have to be on your ship.

[peak halo]

Then what about the anomaly of unknown science that would theoretically left behind, possibly in a VERY busy system/orbit

I like the 'dragonball' theory, the artifacts get thrown across space again, causing the race to restart

[safe kite]

I don't believe am anomaly is left behind. You can visit the location you jumped from after walking away from the unity iirc.

[keen spear]

If you pick the third option of go it alone the ending talks about people following your example and arriving to unity because you end the notion of it being gatekept (emissary) or might is right (hunter)

[daring lake]

This 👆. Unity "You" talks about how other people find the path to the Unity after you go through. We know that the Armillary creates the path, and it seems unlikely that it is destroyed or taken apart. "In time Constellation publish their findings ... " and " .. many noble Starborn pass through ... " etc. The games writers could have made this clearer I suppose, but we will have to make do with what we have been given. 🙂

[keen spear]

Why I never join with either

[south mason]

I really enjoy how it lets you not pick either

I was so worried when I was first playing like, I don't like either of these starborn

[safe kite]

They both kinda suck, yeah.

[south mason]

They both suck for their own reasons which is cool in it's own way and a worse game would have made you have to pick one

[keen spear]

I just don't join them out of spite

They may have good reasons but I ain't here for good reasons

[stiff mango]

I just wish they'd made it so two of them went through and two didn't, instead of all four canonically chickened out. Barrett and Sarah should have gone through immediately.

Guess I should say all five.

Hah imagine if Cora went through and Sam didn't.

[mossy cobalt]

It seems clear to me that the Emissary takes control of the Armillary after you leave if you're allied

In other words, the Armillary is still there on your ship, but now your ship is in the Emissary's hands and they're free to disassemble it and reassemble it somewhere else

It's specifically noted that the Emissary does not follow you through the Unity, and instead stays behind and helps other people (approved by the Emissary personally) become Starborn

This makes zero sense in the "Dragonballs" interpretation because they'd have to repeat the fight. Talking down the Hunter would achieve nothing and the Emissary would refuse that option.

[stiff mango]

The Hunter is dead, no reason to fight him again, you just track down the artifacts in a history we've never seen.

[mossy cobalt]

The Hunter is not necessarily dead if you ally with the Emissary

You can talk him down before claiming the final Artifact

[stiff mango]

True. But that still doesn't mean the artifacts don't scatter. It's not like the Emissary could stop them from scattering.

[mossy cobalt]

They absolutely do not scatter. The Hunter can go through the Unity without you if you're allied with him and the Armillary is still right there on your ship after he goes through.

Neither the Hunter's path nor the Emissary's path post-Unity makes sense if they scatter.

[stiff mango]

If you go in and chicken out and he goes through, they don't scatter because you're the one who assembled them.

Same as my proposal that Barrett and Sarah should have gone through.

[mossy cobalt]

So they only scatter if you go through? What's the point of that? You can send as many people as you wnat through and they'll stay where they are but if you go through they scatter?

What if you disassemble the Armillary and the Hunter assembled it, it would scatter as soon as he went through?

[stiff mango]

I assume so.

[mossy cobalt]

... why do you assume that? What in the game points to that?

We have ample evidence that it doesn't scatter, why add that mechanic just for you?

[stiff mango]

We do not have ample evidence of that. We have a couple of inconsistencies that don't make it clear.

The Emissary refers to the "Path to the Unity" before you ever assemble the Armillary too. And the PC refers to it as well.

That phrase is thus used to refer to the gathering of the artifacts at least TWICE.

[mossy cobalt]

What's inconsistent? If you ally with the Hunter, the Hunter goes through it clearly doesn't scatter. If you ally with the Emissary, the Emissary stays behind to guard it and send more people through and is fine with the Hunter sticking around, which also doesn't make sense if it scatters.

[stiff mango]

So it's entirely consistent that a third reference to "people find the path to the unity" could mean "they gather the artifacts"

[mossy cobalt]

Right, we're securing that path actively with the Emissary if we're allies. Afterwards the Emissary basically vets people going through, creating a new path.

"The Emissary remains in this universe, but your faith in them inspires them to seek out those they believe are worthy of finding the Unity. Many noble Starborn will be reborn under their guidance."

Note, it never mentions seeking out the path to the Unity because they already have that (the Armillary), they seek out new people to make Starborn by sending them through it to the Unity. Controlling access to it was the entire point of their project.

The "path" is only mentioned in the ending if you did it all by yourself and nobody else controls the Armillary.

"By defeating both the Hunter and the Emissary, the path to the Unity in this universe is left for the people of the Settled Systems to discover on their own, uninterrupted by powerful Starborn."

The Armillary is all of the Artifacts, it is the path.

[mossy cobalt]

OK so I did a quick search in the dialogue for "path to the Unity" because I wasn't sure what you meant by this

"You've never come this far. Not in all the universes I've seen. The path to the Unity is opening to you."

That's the Emissary during In Their Footsteps

At this point you've already collected a number of the Artifacts, so it doesn't seem to me that "collecting the Artifact is opening to you" (if we replace "path to the Unity" with "collecting the Artifacts"), you've quite clearly already proven yourself in that. So it seems to be referring to the endpoint moreso than the midpoint if that makes sense. The Emissary likewise says "All the Artifacts are needed to complete the Armillary, and open the way to the Unity." (emphasis mine, again)

"Just cleaning up Constellation a little bit. Always a useful first stop on the path to the Unity."

That's the Hunter this time, in the universe where he's waiting for you at the Lodge after you've gone through the Unity.

Here too, he seems to very literally mean "getting to the Unity", so it doesn't seem to be a direct reference to collecting the Artifacts, at least not to me

[mossy cobalt]

The third and final reference in dialogue.txt is this one.

Sorry I know I did a lot of digging there I was just under the impression I might've missed some dialogue

@stiff mango is there another reference besides those three? Sorry if it seems like I'm going over the top picking it apart! It had seemed clear in my POV that it doesn't scatter, and you're the first person who had any explicit references to give me for why you would think it actually does scatter. So I'm just trying to get the full picture in case there's more evidence. (I appreciate you actually having some in-game text/dialogue to base your position on instead of just vibes!)

(no worries later if you don't feel like responding by the way, don't want to make it seem like I'm harassing anyone for evidence, I just love looking for correspondences etc. in the writing so I'm just discussing it for fun at the end of the day)

[stiff mango]

dunno, was going by memory, not in the CK.

One reason I don't buy "the Emissary keeps people out" is, they literally do not have the technology or manpower for that. They've never been able to get more than a couple of ships together for a single operation, and you tell me what a few Starborn Guardians would do against, say, SysDef. Or even just Ecliptic.

[safe kite]

Very few know of the race to the Unity. Those very few are all susceptible to bullets.

[stiff mango]

Constellation literally publishes their findings. It says so in the vignette.

[keen spear]

Yea that's in the third option ending

[mossy cobalt]

I hear what you're saying on that. There certainly don't seem to be a huge number of Starborn Guardian ships relative to the major fleets. That being said, I'm not sure technology would be a hard line for that, because SysDef and the Crimson Fleet both seem to be able to coordinate ship battles just fine based on the end of their questline, and Starborn have a history with Ecliptic based on the Buried Temple.

The Ecliptic thing is just an example, but I will say on a headcanon level I could easily see a whole fleet of Ecliptic ships escorting one or two Starborn Guardians, no questions asked as long as the credits keep rolling in!

Or even the Buried Temple fortification complex itself repurposed as an Armillary "castle" so to speak

That last bit about Ecliptic is just headcanon, but I do think the Emissary holding onto (and defending) the completed Armillary in their questline is intended as the canon canon.

[mossy cobalt]

This is a good point though. I think they'd have a significant number of people joining and opposing them once word gets out that the Unity exists.

[ancient prawn]

I’m pretty sure they stated they hired ecliptic to build the base or something along those lines, I doubt it was much more than that

[keen spear]

I like to think there are starborn who abandoned the hunt for unity but use connections and money they make on new runs to move the events forward, that's how there are so many dislodged artifacts not tied to some starborn

It'd make a lot of sense

[mossy cobalt]

Well, those Ecliptic were certainly trying to defend the base to some extent, because we see a lot of evidence of fighting when we show up (the Hunter and/or Emissary having made it there first). Whichever Starborn were paying them were paying them very well, and the terminals there discuss that.

Basically all I was pointing out is that Starborn have a documented track record of paying Ecliptic very well to fight to the death on their behalf. Starborn aren't unique in that (see e.g. SysDef doing the same thing on a smaller scale by sending some Ecliptic ships to die at the beginning of the Crimson Fleet questline) but yeah, it was just an example of how the Emissary (or any other Starborn) could easily use their resources to quickly scale our their forces if needed.

Them actually doing that and employing an Ecliptic fleet is just a headcanon of mine like I said earlier, so I want that to be clear (the Buried Temple base is the only specific example we see of Starborn hiring Ecliptic), but there's definitely precedent for them using that option if they ever wanted to.

[waxen edge]

I've had play thoughs where I've been innundated with SB Guardians dropping in multiple times per planet landing. I wouldn't claim the ships are rare.

[mossy cobalt]

Fair enough. I guess when I think "fleet" I'm used to thinking of the SysDef ending, but to be fair we never see anything similar from the Freestar Militia and we know they have a fleet.

[waxen edge]

As for Masada - you can go there before the quest takes you, and see that it is just a normal Ecliptic base, not at all SB related.

Perhaps the glimpses of the capital ships are hints of bygone fleet days, pre-war?

Shroudbearer, whatever the Ecliptic ship is, and the Spacer ship.

[mossy cobalt]

It's stated in dialogue that Starborn hired them to build it there though.

"Oh, we're just scratching the surface. Some Starborn make a habit of using local mercenaries to build fortifications. Try to hold the rest of us off."

"All these defenses and the people who built them are pawns. Our true goal lies further inside."

[waxen edge]

I missed that dialog ... next time you're doing an NG+, drop by and have some fun.

[mossy cobalt]

Good tip, I never thought of hitting it before the MQ takes you there. I imagine it respawns when you're there to get the last artifact?

[waxen edge]

That dialog must be from times you partner up with the Hunter. I've never done that.

[mossy cobalt]

Yes, that's right. You also have to directly ask him about it while you're at the base.

Yeah, I only did it once myself so I made sure to go through all the dialogue while I was there.

[waxen edge]

One of those features I like about the game... you have to play it many times to learn all the tricks.

[mossy cobalt]

I agree! The writing is underrated too. There are a lot of deep thematic connections between different questlines that I've been noticing recently.

[waxen edge]

You can safely run Masada prior to the quest. The temple however is essentially empty.

[mossy cobalt]

That's so interesting. Are the rift things there?

[waxen edge]

It's been a while, but the rifts aren't there: and I can't recall where the base key drops - I think it was in the safe in the second level of the building in that second structure - past the bridge.

The second key was on a table outside the office ... but past that second keyed door there was no more enemy contact.

Then again - I might be mixing up runs - just watched a video and that guy never found a key to get past the first locked door. I remember non-SB fights in the reactor room ... ymmv ... lol

Update: I just reran pre-quest Masada -- and no keys dropped this time around. So first door is the end point with the current build.

[north holly]

Hey guys not sure if this is a good spot to post this but does anyone have any theories on who the Mysterious Captain truly is? I'm already aware ||they are Starborn from new game plus|| but was wondering if anyone had any theories on who they could truly be beyond our conversations with them.

[tall shuttle]

Is the diseased biosphere trait implied to natural, introduced by humans or something else? As far as i'm aware contamination isn't really something starfield deals with much but happy to be proven wrong.

[keen spear]

I think it's largely naturally, we have jobs entirely designed to stop diseased flora from getting out of hand, like trees can easily spread diseases between each other because often time root systems in forests will connect to other trees that allow diseases to spread. Mushrooms can also have similiar issues.

[copper stone]

I'm not really sure if there's more to the Mysterious Captain ( a.k.a. The Trader, I think) than there is

Although, looking at the way Starborn are named such as The Emissary, The Hunter, The Pilgrim (maybe even ourselves: The Spacefarer), each Starborn is named after their purpose or their role.

It's sort of loosing their identity. They become roles which they play throughout the multiverse.

Maybe that Mysterious Captain's role is simply to be a trader in each universe.

[stiff mango]

I'm just sad we don't have an option to explore further that comment about debauchery.

[velvet latch]

Another enjoyable plot hole. There are Artifact, Temple Starborn. As well randoms that debark from craft en masse to become "essence" or whatever boost you get to use powers faster.

The question that needs to answered is they cleary die & we can only pilfer the Hunter, Emmissary's corpses all so briefly.

Is there a Collector Starborn cleaning suits, repurposing weapons from dead Starborn? Ship Tech handing out craft, Amourer doing suits their potential of swelling the ranks is implied in Unity by Constellation's publication of works. Is every human capable of becoming Starborn and can they procreate?

[stiff mango]

When we kill the Hunter or Emissary outside the Temple, they vanish. When they die inside it, they're lootable. Perhaps there's something about the Temple that makes this so.

[waxen edge]

When you kill SB at temples, or at ship landings, it's not the Hunter nor Emissary. Those kills are random starborn looking for artifacts. Generically speaking, you could class those defending temples as compatriots of the Emissary. The random ship landings just Hunter wanna bees...

[waxen edge]

I don't see it as a plot hole. SB die, wink out of existence with all their gear: adding back into the great vat in the sky. Think "can't be two of a person in one universe" soul wise. Since the ship comes from that vat, also explains why they don't stick around (when they did, it was a problem). I can't explin why we can't loot weapon soff them tho. Most of us buy conventional weapons from dealers, and as I recall, when I was "borm" as a starborn I didn't get anything but a ship and armor, and had to procure a weapons: thus, we SHOULD be able to loot weapons.

[high copper]

happens to us too after entering unity, when we die we wink out of existence too

[velvet latch]

We don't wink out like the temple/artifact/ship dropped folks. We physically enter Unity & assume anyone on our ship goes as well. All those people leave everything behind to be reborn as Starborn so they're simply no longer present from where they departed.

The parallel versions of ourselves & always the Hunter, his religious self is another good one for plot points.

Equally when Constellation is present and one or more is unaware they are the Emmissary. As in we never encounter a parallel member of the Lodge who knows they're Starborn outside alternate universes.

When we get unalived in game we pop back & don't really die nor wink-out.

[stiff mango]

I assume nobody on our ship goes, because if you decide to back out, you will find they all backed out, every time.

IMHO Bethesda should have made Barrett and Sarah go through, and Sam and Andreja back out.

[peak halo]

They back out because you back out. We do know other constellation members go through Unity, there is a universe with a star born Cora IIRC, and the unity says they follow you.
The reason they back out when you do is likely a gameplay mechanic, not necessarily their canon action

[stiff mango]

The Unity says they "eventually" follow you.

I don't interpret that word to imply minutes.

[mossy cobalt]

I have the same interpretation. I think you're simply the only Constellation member who feels ready to jump to a new universe immediately, but canonically most of them end up going through eventually (including Cora, Walter, and all of the Emissaries, including non-Emissary versions of them e.g. the evil version of Andreja)

In lore they absolutely do have the option to go through without you (the Hunter goes through when allied to you even if you walk away) but in-game none of them are (emotionally?) ready to leave this universe until after you're already in another one.

Walter is explicitly against going in every universe we're in, so I suspect in most universes he doesn't go at all. The universe where we hear about a Starborn version of him is also relatively rare. On the other hand, the Starborn Cora universe is relatively rare too and I imagine she's much more likely to go through, so maybe that last point isn't not much of a clue.

[proven vault]

When you go into the Unity, one of the visions you see is the consequences of choosing which Starborn to side with. If you side with neither, you get "By defeating both the Hunter and the Emissary, the path to the Unity in this universe is left for the people of the Settled Systems to discover on their own, uninterrupted by powerful Starborn."

I wonder if that means the artifacts you collected are once again scattered throughout the Settled Systems after you go through the Unity, so that others can discover them.

Otherwise I'm not sure what path to the Unity would remain for the people to discover

[stiff mango]

Welcome to the "Dragonball Theory" camp! We're happy to have you!

[mossy cobalt]

Certainly not. The path to the Unity is the Armillary, and it remains on your ship if the Hunter goes through and you do not. Constellation publishes details about the Unity and the mechanism to reach it after you leave the universe.

[safe kite]

We know that it stays open due to endgame dialogue/ events

Sorry team dragonball.

[stiff mango]

The Hunter didn't open the gateway, we did.

[mossy cobalt]

And that's noted to be relevant... where? Technically we didn't even open it, we punched a panel on the ship and the grav drive assembled it.

[stiff mango]

It's noted to be irrelevant... where?

[mossy cobalt]

The Hunter is just as much a participant there as we are, and he gets the same effects we do.

[stiff mango]

I've opened that gateway in orbit of New Atlantis before. Please provide details of how the Emissary's forces keep people from using it there.

[mossy cobalt]

He even collected a good chunk of the Artifacts and contributed them when he joined us

[mossy cobalt]

They disassemble it and take it elsewhere, just like we can when we walk away.

[stiff mango]

They somehow get to it before the entire UC Navy notices it happened and surrounds it.

[mossy cobalt]

Yes, just like they do over Neon.

[stiff mango]

Gravitational waves travel at c. This has been proven.

[mossy cobalt]

?

[stiff mango]

You're positing that a bunch of ships in other star systems notice a giant gravitational event in the most heavily-defended orbit years after it happened, and somehow still beat the ships that are in visual range to it.

[mossy cobalt]

We are allied to the Emissary, they don't need to guess where we are.

I'm sure they'd have an easier time keeping track of us even than the random Starborn who notice any outpost we assemble the Armillary at.

How do the other Starborn know where the Armillary is in every other situation, then, in your conception of it?

[stiff mango]

We never see the Emissary again, but you're stipulating that every Starborn who allies with them for the final battle remains in constant instantaneous communication despite the demonstrated lack of any means of doing so.

[stiff mango]

They appear a minority of the time when we jump, which implies they don't know where we are at all times.

[mossy cobalt]

We know people can send asynchronous communications of some kind, it happens in the Crimson Fleet questline.

[stiff mango]

The fact that the Starborn who try to stop us in various jumps show up a couple at a time heavily implies they're looking around for us and find us sometimes, if they knew where we were they'd all show up at once.

[mossy cobalt]

Actually the CF stuff with Shinnya Voss implies synchronous FTL communications if I'm being honest, but I think it could at least be asynchronous message tickets.

[safe kite]

There is no ftl communication that humanity has access to.

[stiff mango]

Your argument comes down to "because one fact is not in evidence, the alternate explanation must be one that requires many facts not in evidence and several that are directly contradictory to expressed lore and known physics."

[mossy cobalt]

I agree and that would make more sense, but cross-system real-time hacking is known to exist 🤦‍♂️ make it make sense, please!

[stiff mango]

Never mind that Vladimir directly states that the data from anomalies travels at light speed.

[safe kite]

The path to the unity remaining and others following you after you go through (even before you go through tbh) isn't in dispute. That is lore fact.

[mossy cobalt]

Which fact is not in evidence, the directly-falsified "fact" that the Armillary leaves your ship if someone goes through it?

[stiff mango]

There is no instant of hacking in the game where the hacker isn't either docked to the same station you're in or in orbit of the same planet.

[safe kite]

This was discussed a while ago.

Basically Shinya decrypts what is brought to him physically from CF raids and then packs them up for other CF raids to send off to be laundered.

[mossy cobalt]

What, so Voss was hacking something on Kryx then?

[stiff mango]

It isn't falsified, you've merely stated it is, and offered circumstances that are directly stated to be impossible as evidence.

[mossy cobalt]

Literally what in the entire game suggests they're redistributed? How would the Emissary's path even make sense if they are? Why leave the Hunter alive if you talk him down if that means just repeating the fight again and again for eternity?

[stiff mango]

Yes. He's forging Galbank blockchain transactions, which then follow the standard FTL courier train. We figured this out in 2023.

[mossy cobalt]

Exactly what I said before then, asynchronous FTL communication.

[safe kite]

If by asynchronous you mean physically carried by a ship, then yes.

That is 100% how it works.

[stiff mango]

Which doesn't remotely work for them beating a Longsword at rock throwing distance to you.

[stiff mango]

Yep. This whole FTL comms system and coinage system is straight out of Traveler, which in turn borrowed it from Asimov.

[mossy cobalt]

A Longsword that is attacking the Frontier unprovoked? Do you assume we're being swarmed the moment we use the Armillary? Because, I've walked away from the Unity plenty of times, and that doesn't happen.

[stiff mango]

But that doesn't let a ship detect you spinning up your drive, warp out, collect a fleet, and warp back faster than a squadron of Longswords RIGHT THERE.

[mossy cobalt]

They wouldn't even need a fleet, if nobody's left on your ship they can just dock.

[safe kite]

Kind've a pointless argument, though?

The portal to the unity doesn't remain in orbit. We don't know what it does, but it isn't that.

[stiff mango]

We visibly SEE the ship leave normal space. Every single time. You're now assuming what we SEE ON THE SCREEN doesn't happen because it doesn't fit your theory.

[mossy cobalt]

No, I'm saying they don't swarm it

[stiff mango]

They damn sure would if what happened next was a fleet of Guardians.

[mossy cobalt]

Load up a save and walk away from the Unity in Jemison orbit right now, I'll wait.

Let me know how many Longswords fire on you.

[stiff mango]

OK there I did it, the number of Longswords that showed up was triple the number of Guardians.

[mossy cobalt]

And, no, it would be just the one Guardian. We literally see this happen over Volii Alpha

[proven vault]

I don’t know what that means.

[stiff mango]

We don't. Go look again. You're just wrong about this one, it's like the second or third most wrong thing in your theory.

[safe kite]

basically that the artifacts all scatter, Dragonball style.

Provably false, sadly.

[proven vault]

Can you be more specific?

[stiff mango]

In the Dragonball manga and series, once you assemble all the Dragonballs and make a wish, they fly apart and hide themselves again.

[proven vault]

Ok

[mossy cobalt]

We don't get intercepted by the Emissary in Volii Alpha orbit and even fired upon while about a dozen Freestar Sec ships just chill quietly in the corner?

[proven vault]

I’m game, I’m not married to this theory, but I don’t think I’ve seen any evidence to the contrary?

[stiff mango]

We sure do. But we didn't build the Armilary to trigger that, we made a lot of noise on a planet full of people. And, unless you'd forgotten, the Starborn are... people.

[safe kite]

End game dialogue tells you that multiple people, including constellation and others, follow you through the Unity. THe path remains open to them.

[stiff mango]

Eventually follow you through, and in some universes, only those allowed through by the Emissary follow. Somehow they manage to stop people when they couldn't stop you.

[mossy cobalt]

The point I'm making is that the Emissary, your ally whom you can easily maintain communication with just like every other faction you keep in touch with, only needs to personally show up and board your ship. This is only even a concern if everyone on the ship goes through the Unity and VASCO isn't on board, but yes, we can easily see in-game how well-supported all of these mechanics are.

[stiff mango]

I chose not to maintain communication with them. They were only my ally because I needed them. Now what?

[mossy cobalt]

We don't see them do it but nothing falsifies it, unlike the Dragonball thing which is falsified by the Hunter ending.

[mossy cobalt]

Then you wouldn't have agreed to it to begin with. There's an entire ending for that.

The Unity actively says they take control of it.

[proven vault]

I guess I need to revisit the end game dialogue. I don’t recall seeing that the other members of constellation cross into the unity without you

[stiff mango]

Now your theory requires complete deletion of player agency.

[mossy cobalt]

No, the game assumes if you make a decision you're on board with it. Just like you can't go back and destroy the Crimson Fleet later if you ally with them, and so on.

[stiff mango]

I have in fact allied with many people in real life and then gone on to not give them up to the minute reports on my whereabouts and plans.

[mossy cobalt]

Don't want to be a Ryujin employee? Don't apply for the job.

[safe kite]

Player Agency doesn't refture established lore facts.

You side with the Emissary, they take over the path to the Unity. That isn't in dispute because that is the ending

[mossy cobalt]

How many times did you rent a car and then not return it when you were done? You took all of the Emissary's artifacts with the understanding that you were on their side.

[safe kite]

Moreover, the entire Emissary ethos wouldn't work if Dragonball happened.

There would be no path to the unity to lord over.

[stiff mango]

Your theory requires directly stated lore that agrees with physics to be incorrect, player agency to disappear, and logic to look the other way.

Mine requires one interpretation of a line of ambiguous dialog to be favored over another.

[mossy cobalt]

Literally what lore has to be incorrect?

[proven vault]

Ok just the fact that there is a bingo card name “dragonball ending” makes me regret ever asking this. I withdraw my question, carry on with your arguments

[stiff mango]

scroll up

[safe kite]

Nah, it's a valid question.

It's just one of the few questions we have the answer to.

[mossy cobalt]

You didn't give any, unless your position is "people in different star systems can't communicate".

[stiff mango]

OK, it's clear you're not reading, so no point in my continued writing. Enjoy your day.

[safe kite]

I am also puzzled at what lore needs to be incorrect, tbh.

[mossy cobalt]

OK, just to repeat my points from earlier in case anyone was interested:

• The Artifacts stay on your ship after use. We can see this from walking away from the Unity, and especially from the Hunter ending, where someone literally goes through.
• People can communicate asynchronously across star systems. This is FTL but with some delay for the next ship to leave.
• We ally with multiple factions throughout the game, and the Emissary can be one, giving us their Artifacts in exchange for taking control of them again after we're done with the Armillary.
• The Emissary's whole thing is that they intend to defend the Armillary. The Unity tells us directly that they begin uplifting new Starborn after we leave.
• If nobody was on our ship, the Emissary only needs to dock with it (as we do with unoccupied ships, and as we see in the Juno encounter etc.) to go onboard and get the Artifacts. As our ally there's no reason to assume our whereabouts are a mystery to them. We don't know where they take the Armillary after we leave but they definitely take control of it, as the Unity establishes.

Not trying to rehash any of that as an argument, but if anyone feels the position needs more refinement definitely let me know. It all seems lore-demonstrable to me.

[safe kite]

I just did the entire Unity ending with Emissary and walk away just to refresh my memory.

You do not leave behind a portal or empty ship - your ship jumps as normal. No derelict to find or fight over - the discussion over ftl comms is kinda moot.

You retain the artifacts when you walk away. After you have opened the way. Directly refutes the dragonball theory.

Emissary remains in that universe and seeks out the worthy to guide them to the Unity after you leave.

[mossy cobalt]

The FTL comms thing is because after you walk away you're back in the system where you constructed the Armillary. If your ship was empty afterwards then its whereabouts could be in question, was the reason it was asked.

[safe kite]

We do not know what the path to the unity looks like after you jump into the multiverse blender.

But we know it is A Thing That Exists after you go, and that it isnt re-scattering the artifacts, specifically. As we would need to refute actual established lore in order to support that theory.

[mossy cobalt]

Yeah, I suspect in nearly all cases the ship wouldn't be empty, but if you were the only person on the ship and didn't walk away then custody of the ship afterwards would be the point of the discussion.

[safe kite]

Tbh, we don't even know if the ship goes back to where it started when we dive on in. We can assume that, but that could equally be the Unity doing us a solid so we don't instantly die in the vacuum of space.

[stiff mango]

I don't think anybody on the Dragonball Theory side has espoused that they scatter before every human in the Unity has chosen. I know I certainly haven't ever.

Just as your ship comes back into normal space when one person chooses not to go through.

[mossy cobalt]

Well, we know our Constellation companions don't get pulled through with us, because if we're married they go through eventually but not immediately.

[stiff mango]

Sometimes we leave behind a ship capable of taking on an entire fleet of Starborn, piloted by whoever from Constellation remained behind, not to mention any other crew we had that remained, yet somehow they ALWAYS fall to the Starborn who magically show up, despite a whole UC fleet right there to help.

[safe kite]

Again, this is... moot.

Whoever you side with is who is presumed to control the fate of the Unity. In the Hunter's case, he just books it.

In the Emissary's case, they, specifically, guide others to the Unity they deem worthy. That's the ending, if you side with Emissary, and is not in dispute.

[mossy cobalt]

Fall? Who are they "falling" to? The person you were explicitly borrowing a chunk of the Artifacts from? The person you (and thus your crew, considering their participation) had an agreement with?

[stiff mango]

Well in your "nobody has any agency" interpretation, they all were found worthy, so why would the Emissary even take the artifacts away from them?

We never agreed to give them back, nor is it stated we borrowed them.

[mossy cobalt]

Do we have the agency to not let the Hunter through after allying with him?

[stiff mango]

It's in fact stated "they are yours". You added the "borrowed" bit just now.

[safe kite]

Again. Moot.

Even if you, as the player, say "Psyche! No take backs!", the ending is that the Emissary remains and shephers Starborn they deem worthy through to the Unity.

[stiff mango]

Yes. We're discussing the mechanism by which that occurs.

Nobody disputed the fact of it occuring.

I've merely stated that simple, logical mechanisms of it occurring should be given more weight than complicated Rube Goldberg contraptions and even impossible ones.

[mossy cobalt]

There you go again with the impossible thing. I restated my position point by point above. What was impossible there?

[stiff mango]

Also, suggesting that the fact some NPCs are marked "Essential" in game mechanics means nobody can make decisions in lore is ridiculous.

[mossy cobalt]

And, again, where's our agency in the Hunter ending then? Why can't we tell him to take a hike?

[stiff mango]

Because the game didn't have infinite budget.

[safe kite]

Player Agency is a red herring and just... moot to the discussion, tbh.

[stiff mango]

I can't push Sarah out an airlock either, doesn't mean it's physically impossible, just means the game had a finite budget.

[mossy cobalt]

OK, so... the Emissary alliance is a contradiction how, then?

[stiff mango]

It isn't. Nobody said it was. Choosing not to give them back the artifacts after your shared goals are achieved is a contradiction how?

[mossy cobalt]

It's contradicting the Unity outright stating the Emissary has them after you're done.

[stiff mango]

The Unity doesn't state that they instantly have them.

[safe kite]

It directly refutes the Emissary ending.

They, as confirmed by the ending, remain and guide others ot the Unity.

There is nothing to suggest they have to restart the searchf or artifacts to do it.

[stiff mango]

It states that they resume what they were doing before, essentially, without going into the mechanics of how that takes place at all.

[stiff mango]

There is also nothing to suggest they don't.

[safe kite]

Except... the ending?

Word for word >.>

[stiff mango]

And we're back to "an ambiguous statement cannot have two possible interpretations".

[mossy cobalt]

How would they bring others through to the Unity if they didn't control the Artifacts? How would they be in control of the Artifacts at all if they scattered to the four galactic winds?

[safe kite]

It isn't ambiguous 😄

[stiff mango]

How'd you get control of them in that state?

[safe kite]

"The answer is four"

Well the answer could be five.... isn't a valid response

[stiff mango]

"The Emissary remains behind and guides people through the Unity." isn't four or five, it's "...immediately because your empty ship returns" or "...after regathering the artifacts after your ship returns without them." or "...after regarthering the artifacts because your ship never returns but they do" or probably lots of other possibillities.

[mossy cobalt]

Right, but the mechanics you're associating with them absolutely prevent long-term control while still being able to send new Starborn through. It would require a giant war with all of the existing Starborn (just like we see at the Buried Temple) every time.

[stiff mango]

They absolutely don't prevent long-term control because you just played an entire video game proving otherwise, in which by the way you PERSONALLY eliminated the main obstacles to them retaining control.

The two things that stopped them retaining control were the Hunter and you.

[mossy cobalt]

Also, listen to the dialogue at the Buried Temple. It's made out to be the final battle in each universe, not something that happens multiple times if multiple powerful Starborn get out.

[stiff mango]

The Final Battle between the Hunter and the Emissary.

[mossy cobalt]

That's not what they say though.

[stiff mango]

And a first them that YOU made it. They don't know what happens next, at all.

They're very clear that you're novel. Never made it this far before. Curious to see what happens.

[mossy cobalt]

They say all the Starborn who want the Artifacts gather there to fight, and we see that play out.

[stiff mango]

Suddenly now they know what happens next? How does that make any sense?

[mossy cobalt]

Because if one goes through the other can... I dunno... stay??

[stiff mango]

BTW, you can go into the Unity, choose to back out, and still go kill Starborn in Temples. Bethesda was careful to add a ton of dialog around you choosing that path.

So they're not all gone, demonstrably.

[safe kite]

"Remains" as opposed to going through the Unity, "Guides others to it" in accordance with their entire dialogue chain where they say, specifically, that they plan to control the Unity and only let those who are worthy through.

At no point is it suggested that the artifacts need to be recollected once the Armillary is finished. That is headcanon injection.

[mossy cobalt]

Right, but they're obviously not all hunting for the Armillary either, as Aquilus and the Trader prove.

[stiff mango]

At no point is it suggested that their plans are instantly realized. In fact it says they remain TO guide people, it doesn't say a darn thing about precisely how effective they are. Even if their future is known, it's given in a sentence, not a 10 volume future history.

[mossy cobalt]

Except when it says multiple noble Starborn emerge from their efforts?

[stiff mango]

It doesn't say "they remain, and successfully prevent all others from passing through unless worthy, so no complicating factors of any kind."

[mossy cobalt]

You're not Starborn until you go through. Clearly nobody else takes control from them.

[stiff mango]

There are in fact degrees of success between "total" and "none".

[safe kite]

And nothing suggests they have any trouble in realizing their goals 😄

[stiff mango]

Except logic and their demonstrated capabillities you just observed for a hundred hours.

[safe kite]

Yes, aside from Headcanon.

[stiff mango]

"the events of the video game" are not headcannon, and you extrapolating only one possible interpretation of an ambiguous statement IS headcannon.

[mossy cobalt]

What's ambiguous about you still having the Artifacts after the Hunter went through?

[stiff mango]

Your reasons for continuing to say that in response to nobody contradicting it in any way.

[mossy cobalt]

Your entire premise contradicts it.

[safe kite]

The... whole... scattering artifacts like Dragonballs thing. Kinda. Yeah?

"But they don't" doesn't... contradict that idea? >.>

[proven vault]

Well as usual with the stupid time change, I woke up and can't get back to sleep. So I decided to fire up the CK and see all the relevant dialogue for myself.

My conclusion is that the Armillary remains intact once the player goes through the Unity.

We know that it isn't destroyed when anyone goes through it. If you choose to back out, both the Hunter (if you sided with him) and Cora Coe (if Sam is dead) will go through it without you, and you can go through later. Also, "Your lovers, all of them, eventually all choose to be reborn themselves", so it remains for them to use after you.

[safe kite]

Yep. Pretty conclusive.

[proven vault]

Yeah. But, there is some pretty bad writing that makes it appear ambiguous. "The path to the Unity in this universe is left for the people of the Settled Systems to discover on their own" at least seems to imply that they have to walk the same path as you did all over again. But the other two endings don't imply that.

Also it took me a while to understand the Emissary's actions. But they do make sense. They don't want you or the Hunter to go through the Unity, because you are an unknown quantity who might cause untold disaster in the next Universe, and the Hunter absolutely will cause death and destruction in the next Universe. So the Emissary fights to prevent either of you from going through.

But if you side with them, they decide you're pretty reasonable and have earned the right to go through. They then stay behind and decide who else can go through after you.

[safe kite]

Ironically, I agree with the Hunter's assessment that the Emissary is in the wrong and kinda... up their own rear end with their ideology.

But that's a value assessment and not lore.

[proven vault]

Also, I think this is important: "The Constellation membership who stays behind will, in time, publish their data about the discovery of the Artifacts, the Starborn, and the Unity. Space exploration across the Settled Systems is given new life, as people search for hope out there in the stars."

It doesn't say that publishing their findings helps people trace the steps to the Unity, just that it inspires people to explore.

[safe kite]

The line that stuck with me (of the Hunter's) was something along the lines of "The Emissary wants to judge others, but the Unity itself doesn't descriminate" and I was like dang dude, spittin fax

[proven vault]

yeah exactly. Once you make it to the Unity you're in. Only an external force can prevent you entering.

one thing I had missed was the bit about Cora. In my current playthough, my character romanced Sam in the previous universe, but the Hunter killed him. Then, by coincidence, in the current universe, adult Cora was at Constellation wanting revenge for me letting Sam die.

The fact that she will sneak onto your ship and enter the Unity by herself really ties that up neatly

[safe kite]

It says kiddo Cora goes through the unity if sam dies?

[proven vault]

yep

[safe kite]

Suggesting that Starborn age normally 😄

[proven vault]

if Sam is dead, and you to to the Unity and back out, Cora goes missing

[safe kite]

That's actually neat

[proven vault]

Constellation member: You're back! Cora's not with you, is she? I can't find her anywhere...
Player: She was in the ship when I jumped. That's the last I saw of her.
or
Player: Oh no. She must've stowed away on my ship before I jumped...
Constellation member: So she did it, didn't she? She went looking for Sam...

[safe kite]

That is amazing.

[proven vault]

right? I love that it's in there

[safe kite]

I guess it's possible that Killer Cora is a Different Cora than Kiddo Cora, but that seems unlikely. Potentially can put to bed the immortal Starborn theory.

Or rather ageless starborn.

[proven vault]

It's funny that Sam and Cora have the most dialogue about the Unity if you go and come back. If Sam is alive, Cora will tell you she met another version of herself. "She was nice. We played tag"

Yeah not sure what to think about the age thing. I always assumed you returned to the body you had when you left Vectera.

Of course, we don't know at what point in each person's life people are reborn when they go through the Unity. It would be weird, but I guess child Cora could have been reborn as a future version of herself.

[safe kite]

Possible. Other bits certainly suggest that some sort of age reset happens when you enter a new universe, like the Hunter having gone through thousands of iterations.

Maybe there's a Unity boarding school Cora stayed at for a few years.

[mossy cobalt]

This is the first I've heard of this, and I've been playing since launch. (Before launch technically if you count the premium edition early play window.) Cheers to you for mentioning this!

[coarse sundial]

question; obviously, there are the main "official" three colonies for each faction- the ones they're limited to by treaty. but they fought at least one decades-long war and there are outposts all over the systems. is it ever mentioned if there are other colonies out there, loosely aligned to one of the factions but not directly legally affiliated?

presumably founded by corps within each of the factions.

[safe kite]

So, through the Narion Treaty, any 'great faction' is limited to three systems (binary and trinary systems count as one) and can have whatever infrastructure they want in them.

In terms of colonies outside that, that are tons of independent colonies and outposts/factories funded by entities from both the UC and FC. Where the line appears to be drawn is when those colonies start flying the flag of the great power and/or are directly funded/supported by the government of the great power itself.

The Colony War was a direct result of this interpretation - the FC established outposts outside of its territory, and their claims that said colonies are independent were found unsatisfactory by the UC.

[keen spear]

There are other colonies out there but we don't really see them besides say paradiso in the game's lore. Characters mention all different kinds of settlements and we see LIST settled places. For the UC and FC who are signatories on the Narion treaty they're limited to three systems though Narion/Valo and Alpha Centauri/Toliman being binary stars (though technically Alpha Centauri is supposed to be a trinary system)

The Narion Treaty states that the UC and FC can't claim more than three systems but can build outposts for resource gathering purposes hence why we see so many outposts attributed to the factions and why the Freestar's response to the UC's claim that they were colonizing another star was just "it's not a colony but a farm", long term settlements by the two are outlawed unless it's within their borders

If the corps aren't officially aligned with the UC or FC like how stroud-eklund is run by an FC governor it's most likely fair game to colonize. Like I can imagine Ryujin being able to because they aren't officially part of the FC in any regard.

[worn pendant]

The way I see it, the treaty is between the Freestar Collective and the UC only. None of these terms would apply for any new groups that establish outside of the control of both.

Even the banned weapons probably wouldn’t matter if they were far outside both group’s control.

[safe kite]

No great faction may colonize more than three star systems.

If it was UC and FC specific, it would say so, and both the UC and FC would need to be disinterested in preventing a rival power from overtaking them, neither of which is the case.

UC and FC just happen to be the only 'great factions' known.

Moreover, the Armistice specifically did not change the terms of the Treaty of Narion, which shows both factions are on board with maintaining the 3 system rule, and HV was a signatory of the Armistice, which shows they are on board as well.

[worn pendant]

I assume UC and FC would collectively enforce it if a fourth power shows up with multiple systems under their control.

[safe kite]

Entirely likely.

[worn pendant]

The intergalactic war will be huge.

Though given the treaty caps fleet sizes, the UC and FC might be screwed if the new power has more ships, tools and manpower compared to them.

Honestly maybe that’s what the new DLC will be about

[daring lake]

Well, by their own law, The UC would have to recognise another power as legit. Only the UC + FC are signatories of the Narion treaty (with the snakes put forward as arbiters). And only the UC has the Centaurus Proclamation.

[worn pendant]

Speaking of UC is it a direct descendant of the UN, a different organization with no connection to it, or something else?

[safe kite]

We are the children of Earth.

The United Colonies as an entity was first established in the year 2159, on the planet Earth, as a means of unifying the human race as we spread amongst the stars. Our goal was the peaceful exploration and colonization of space, working in harmony with anyone who wishes to sail forth across the blackest sea, to new horizons. In 2161, we issued the Centaurus Proclamation, which formalized the colonization of distant worlds for anyone who wished to do so.

Unfortunately, not everyone shared in our dream. When wars erupted across the Settled Systems, the United Colonies stood steadfast, protecting humans and their right to fairly colonize.

And then, when our beloved home world was rendered uninhabitable in the year 2203, the United Colonies knew it had a sacred responsibility - we were to be the keepers of Earth. Its artifacts. Its ideals. Its cultures. Its very people.

So while you stand now on the planet Jemison, in the city of New Atlantis, in the Alpha Centauri star system, know that for all intents and purposes, you are still very much on Earth.

And Earth takes care of its own.

Doesn't mention the UN by name, but that's a logical assumption.

[peak halo]

Or it's equivalent in 2156

[static sky]

I’m grateful firefly is back, it’s really similar to starfield. Brown coats lost, UC won.

The story start after the war in the same way

[keen spear]

You can't force a treaty onto a non-signatory, that's not how it works. For instance if House Va'ruun never signed onto the armistice they could have xenoweapons and mechs

[safe kite]

We've had this discussion.

[keen spear]

Yes it ended with you not understanding how treaties work.

You can not enforce a treaty onto a power that is not a signatory on the treaty, this is basic international foreign diplomacy. A non-signatory is not bound by the agreements of a treaty.

[safe kite]

Let me know how well "But I never agreed to it" works as a defense when the two superpowers decide that it does, in fact, apply.

[keen spear]

The Narion Treaty is only bound to UC and FC, a new faction or Va'ruun who have not signed onto it can not be held to it's terms. This is true in real life.

For instance if there is a good that the US and EU agreed to not trade in between themselves by treaty that would not mean that Mexico could not trade in it with the US or the EU, it just means the US and EU would not trade this good between themselves. They have no right to forbid Mexico from trading in this good because Mexico didn't sign it.

[safe kite]

That is the definition of an apples and oranges comparison.

The UC and FC are the only superpowers in the settled systems. They both agreed that no 'great power' will claim more than 3 systems.

That is enforceable by the position both of them hold in the SS.

It is de facto International (intergalactic?) Law.

Any new faction would need to play ball with that or risk pissing off both.

[keen spear]

Nah, I'm fairly sure I understand the binding rules of a treaty. A faction who didn't sign the treaty is not bound by it.

[red orbit]

Yes, House Varuun couldn't colonize more than 3 planets either. That is the rule.

[keen spear]

For instance in TES Hammerfell or Black Marsh could still have Talos worship because by not being part of the Empire they're not bound by the white-gold concordant.

[red orbit]

Hell, even the Crimson Fleet didn't bother trying. I'm sure they could have colonized a few systems around the Key, but that would've sparked even more issues.

[safe kite]

See: all of human history for armed interventions when one party, who technically isn't bound by law, flouts established norms and irritates the ones with bigger sticks.

[keen spear]

Crimson Fleet has been setting up bases all over the settled systems, I doubt they'd care about the Narion Treaty

[keen spear]

Nah Va'ruun didn't sign the Narion Treaty and the Armistice doesn't include "They can't claim more than three systems"

[red orbit]

Establishing outposts wasn't against the treaty. Hell, look at what sparked the Narion war. Semantics. That said, claiming 3 planetary systems.

[keen spear]

Va'ruun could absolutely claim more than three systems

[red orbit]

I reiterate: outposts are fair game. Hell, so are small colonies. But establishing metropolii? (IE: New Atlantis, Gregarin, HopeTown, etc.) would spark a war, and we just had one lmao

[red orbit]

And the one with the biggest stick normally wins. Hence why we call it the "talking stick"

[keen spear]

No, any colonies that aren't in the systems they're allowed to have would lead to a violation of the treaty, that's literally what started the colony war

UC and FC are bound to only outposts outside of their borders

[safe kite]

Did you not read any of the prior discussion on this?

You are wrong on almost every point.

[keen spear]

I recommend learning about treaties

[red orbit]

As long as it isn't a "settlement" for capture purposes, but a colony for mining, farming, or research (read: outposts), then its fine. Even the Spacefarer, as part of Constellation (and ignoring the use of mods) is bound by it.

I have. The UC questline is the first thing I do on every playthrough. It literally says "No major faction can settle more than 3 systems", but says nothing about smaller colonies and outposts.

Hell, what started Narion was a stupid debate over the size and intended purpose of a colony. Hence, the term "colony war"? Cmon... bushleague.

And if HV wasn't bound by it, why did they sign the armistice? (Other than just giving us an extended plotpoint)

[keen spear]

Again, you can't enforce that on a faction that did not sign it, that's not how treaties work.

[safe kite]

You absolutely can if your stick is bigger 😄

That's kinda the prelude to most armed conflicts in history.

[keen spear]

It's like trying to force a contract on someone who didn't sign it

[red orbit]

Funny thing is... House Varu'un did...? Did you play the UC questline at all?

[keen spear]

I did, House Va'ruun signed the Armistice, not the Narion Treaty. Those are two separate treaties

[safe kite]

Covered that already

[red orbit]

You literally have to talk to the Ambassador who says "oh yeah, no, we're bound by it".

And the Armistice reiterates the Treaty of Narion, expands on it, and makes it binding. There's a literal copy of it sitting in the archive museum that you can walk up to and read.

I will say this... the UC missed out. They coulda called themselves the UEG... but that might have infringed on HALO rights... ah well.

[red orbit]

One more thing, to add and support our argument here:

The DLC "Stranded Space" makes House Varu'un follow this. Varu'unkai, the neighboring system, and one other random one in HV space. Granted, the other two are only shown in unreleased footage, but it's assumed HV follows this rule of thumb, even in their own corner of the galaxy.

[keen spear]

Again that's the ARMISTICE, they are two different treaties. The Armistice is not a re-write of the Narion Treaty, it is an entirely separate treaty.

Anyway the doctrine of "my stick is bigger" has never worked out for the UC. Look at the colony war where they thought their stick was bigger and it ended up with mass resource scarcity and a depletion of manpower so severe they can barely defend their own capital system.

[safe kite]

Homework assigned:

Replay Vanguard and pay attention to interactions with HV.

Google opinio juris and customary law.

[keen spear]

I did, they're bound by the armistice, not the narion treaty

[keen spear]

This is largely due to Firefly being an amalgamation of several different animes and shows Whedon was watching and decided to take for his show. Watch outlaw star, cowboy bebop, trigun, legend of galactic heroes, it's like an extremely standard sci-fi property

[astral timber]

No, you are
@keen spear is right. Treaties only apply to parties that sign them. If the UC, FC and HV signed the "no great power shall colonize more than 3 systems" treaty, then it only applies to them
If a 4th great power shows up and occupies 4 systems, then the 3 factions would probably be plenty worried. They might very well declare war on the 4th power. But they can't justify that war on the basis of "you occupied 4 systems, that's against our treaty." Because the 4th power never signed any such treaty

[keen spear]

And as shown in the narion war and colony war the UC's "bigger stick" policy often ends with the UC gaining nothing, like how they lost their claim on the clinic and Niira or how they lost a good deal of their troops and resources to the point spacers, fleet, zealots and ecliptic are now a bigger problem in the settled systems

[astral timber]

I mean, I hate to bring current events into this, but have you seen the news lately? Wars can be won and lost on public perception
And declaring war on a party for no reason other than you don't like how powerful they're getting is a REALLY bad reason

[astral timber]

And if the UC thinks only they can have the biggest stick, no one else can have a bigger stick, and we'll attack anyone whose stick is getting too big... that is NOT gonna go down well
Heck, I seriously doubt the FC would back them up if they went to war on a hypothetical 4th faction for this reason. The Council of Governors are nearly all businesspeople. They'd rather do business with a powerful new faction, because if they're powerful it also means they're rich

[keen spear]

FC might use it as an excuse to get out of the narion treaty, there's also taking into consideration who these sudden new factions consist of because if it's ex-UC people that creates more problems

[astral timber]

I mean, the Narion Treaty is clearly not a mutual defense treaty, i.e. "everyone who signs this must back each other up militarily against a threat to one of us." If it were, the Colony War would've never happened
So yeah, if the UC wants to wave its big stick around, the FC will probably say "bye guys, you're on your own"

[keen spear]

And if it's ex-UC like how we're shown how much people hate living in the well or Cydonia that also hurts them in many ways

[astral timber]

Yeah, if the hypothetical 4th faction are UC malcontents, the FC would probably stay faaaaar away from that
Unless you're talking about the Crimson Fleet. But at the time of the start of the game, the CF are weak enough that the task force dedicated to fighting them can't even get much governmental support

If the CF gets powerful enough to seriously threaten the Settled Systems, then yes, I can see the UC and FC declaring war on them jointly. But then again, if Delgado is smart, he could easily cut a deal with the FC
"We hate the UC, but we're okay with you guys, we agree not to raid your ships if you agree not to help the UC fight us. And if we get big and powerful enough, let's do business"
That'd sound like a pretty good deal to the Governors

[astral timber]

And btw, this is an incredibly shallow reading of history. All you see are the wars. You don't even know the years and years of politicking and negotiating that went on before every single war

[keen spear]

I'm more of the mind the PR nightmare of attacking former residents, especially when places are already a hotbed of disenfranchised people

[astral timber]

Yeah, that "normally" is doing a LOT of heavy lifting. There are TONS of wars and armed conflicts throughout history in which the bigger party lost. Not even necessarily militarily, sometimes in that they realized how stupid they were to declare war in the first place

[astral timber]

Exactly. What is this videogame-brained thinking, that you think governments can declare war and their millions of citizens will just go with it? Especially if those citizens are the ones who'll be fighting and dying in that war?
I mean, it's one thing if said government is really good at propaganda and brainwashing its citizenry. But no faction in Starfield has demonstrated that

[astral timber]

Okay, maybe House Va'ruun

[keen lintel]

Most based faction I will not take any va'ruun slander

[keen spear]

Even shattered space showed not everyone was fully on board with restarting the crusade, they only did it because of their all must serve ideology that you can directly go against

[keen lintel]

Which would be going against the serpents will

[keen spear]

Serpent didn't say anything

That's kind of the whole point, Anasko went mad because he never heard the serpent once in his life

[keen lintel]

He did? Jinan said crusade, and jinans word is the serpents will

[astral timber]

There's tons of hints in SS that the people of Dazra are ordinary folk who just want to live in peace, only they're loyal to a religion that demands they obey their government without question
And there's an entire subquest that shows how their religion can be interpreted in an entirely peaceful way, and that they don't HAVE to be xenophobic and warlike
And so you can pick an ending in which the Crusade doesn't start again, HV starts resuming peaceful relations with the Settled Systems, foreigners can come visit Dazra, and their entire society is set on a path to become more peaceful and friendly

[keen lintel]

Any speaker after that hasn't spoken to the Great Serpent so any defiation from jinans command is at best lukewarmism and at worse heresy

[desert zinc]

substitute serpent with garfield and universe with lasagna. That's a cult i copuld get behind

[astral timber]

Honestly I don't know if anyone in Dazra is even gunning for war. The most militaristic House is Veth'aal, and even their position is "we do what the Speaker says, and if the Speaker says war then we war"
So when Anasko dies and is no longer Speaker, someone else becomes Speaker and says "no war," House Veth'aal just goes with it

[keen lintel]

They should be

[keen spear]

Yea Va'ruun are in no position to wage a war and the high council knows this best

We also don't know if Jarek spoke to the great serpent, shattered space showed that the original message was a more peaceful one, could be the serpent returned to that when Jarek took over

[keen lintel]

Anasko claims he didn't

[keen spear]

Anasko claims restarting the crusade would allow him to talk to the great serpent, what does he know

He also destroyed Dazra, he isn't of sound mind

[keen lintel]

I too would destroy a city after the betrayal of the crusade

Clearly that's the serpents will

[keen spear]

Anasko doesn't speak for the serpent though

[keen lintel]

I know bc he's not a speaker either

[keen spear]

And jinan went mad and started making a peaceful religion into a distrustful and hateful one thus corrupting the serpent's words

[keen lintel]

Next you're gonna call the UC a good faction 😔

[keen spear]

Nah

Va'ruun was proto-sanctum universum

[keen lintel]

I'd join House Varuun if I had to choose

[keen spear]

Unity showed it's form to Jinan, he saw the armillary as a snake coiling around a sphere of stars, at least that's how I interpret it.

[keen lintel]

I have two interpretations

One in game wise and one rl wise, I agree with your one ingame wise

[keen spear]

I do think great cosmic serpent would be cool though and with the void creatures in SS there's potentially other realms of reality unity keeps us from

I'm always down for more extra dimensional forces

[keen lintel]

Ingame theory I lean more towards whatever is opposite of the unity

[coarse sundial]

that would be kind of wild, given that they don't appear to abide by any other aspects of it

they're clearly down with all sorts of deeply illegal experimentation

i would argue that enforcing any such treaty on va'ruun is tricky on the grounds that neither of the main factions even knows how to get to their homeworld lol. now, post shattered space? that's a different question.

[coarse sundial]

there's a way "heaven" and "hell" are explained in the comic "the power fantasy" that really lines up with how i view what's going on in the spaces between spaces in starfield, lemme dig it up

[keen spear]

Nothing Va'ruun does in SS breaks the armistice, for all of Anasko's problems he is keeping to the agreement which is funny

No mechs, no xenoweapons, the armistice doesn't ban human experimentation

[coarse sundial]

i can't actually find that excerpt i was looking for, alas

anyway, i do think that while it's certainly possible that what the unity is and whatever domain that the vortex horrors originate from are distinct, it's currently fuzzy at best. even if they are distinct..

if the unity is there, there may be other things- less benevolent things. and if less benevolent things exist there, who is to say that the unity is? it certainly doesn't seem invested in the morality of those who pass through, and it frankly doesn't seem to have positive long-term effects on their psychology.

also, why do the vortex horrors have human faces

[stiff mango]

One thing I've been thinking about: if you build the Armillary at your Outpost, and then go into space and travel to another planet on the opposite side of the system, and then jump, you enter the Unity. There can't be any direct interaction there, gravity travels at c. So my theory is the Armillary isn't what opens the gateway, it's some kind of signal to the controlling intelligence to open the way for us, specifically for the person who attuned it by building the thing.

[keen lintel]

Idk but I bet they're great kissers

[stiff mango]

Makes me think the space between is filled with horrors, as we've seen, and the Unity intelligence is there to make the passage safe.

[coarse sundial]

see, my concern is that it's the dangly bit on an anglerfish.

you're not ascending, you're ringing the dinner bell.

that's not to say that it's the case, just that it's troubling possibility.

[keen lintel]

I'll kiss one just for science

[coarse sundial]

i think that anything with human faces on its knees (its many many knees) should be vapourized, for the good of my ability to sleep at night

[stiff mango]

Perhaps jump travel was once like the Warp in 40K, a gamble against eldritch horrors, and whoever built the Unity made a bubble of "it's safe to jump in this area because we made a thing", and the experiments in Shatspa somehow are bypassing the thing.

[coarse sundial]

i also find it deeply suspect that all of the needed portions of the armiliary are within like 50 ly of sol

the galaxy (one of thousands) is ten thousand plus lightyears in diameter and everything we need to complete this cosmic puzzle is within fifty light years of the homeworld? that's not a grand cosmic mystery, that's puzzle meant for us specifically

[keen lintel]

But sloppy knee?

[coarse sundial]

i will say that i'm not really fully convinced va'ruun really has the actual capacity needed to genuinely settle another world enough that it would violate any treaties; they're developed and advanced enough to be dangerous, but they also waged war on the other factions for like 20 years without making a lot of progress. after all, every citizen of their worlds is descended from one colony ship on a relatively inhospitable world, so just on numbers alone there are limiting factors.

[safe kite]

Of course they can justify it.

Google opinio juris and customary law.

International law can become and does become compulsory for rogue states, should the superpowers involved decide the conventions still apply. International norms are whatever the majority of great powers agree should be and are willing to back up with force if necessary. See: nuclear non proliferation, human rights, etc.

You two are getting hung up on the de jure writing (which you are also misinterpreting btw) not the de facto rules being enforced.

Moreover, your comments are based on your interpretation of the word 'treaty' alone, which might hold weight if it didn't go directly against the actual lore of the game. It is irrelevant what you think that Treaty of Nation 'should' be when the results of it are observable and discussed in game. The game is the only first party evidence we have for how the Settled Systems works, and it says explicitly that no faction, at all, is getting more than 3 systems without a fight from the UC and FC.

The Centaurus Proclomatiom, Treaty of Narion, and Armistice form the core of the Settled Systems' version of international law. Those are the norms any faction would be compelled to sign onto or risk war, should they grow large enough.

[keen lintel]

Another reason to destroy those factions

[keen spear]

Yea except the freestar and Va'ruun didn't sign the Centaurus proclamation, that's a purely UC act. Which is further proven by the fact that the zealots, who broke off from Va'ruun, are considered heretics and a hostile faction. Opinio juris also doesn't back you up so idunno why you're pushing that.

Countries that didn't sign the narion treaty aren't bound by it

That's standard international law

[safe kite]

Find a primary source that says that and I'll agree.

A single quote from any Varuun that suggests they aren't bound by the 3 system limit will do.

[keen spear]

They're not a signatory on the narion treaty so don't have to

[safe kite]

That is your interpretation of the treaty. It goes against the game's interpretation. The game is the primary source.

Find evidence to support your claim.

[stiff mango]

The Treaty of Narion is over a decade before House Va'ruun revealed their existence.

[keen spear]

Nah it doesn't, they're not a signatory on the treaty, that's proof enough

[safe kite]

Very correct. And yet they are still following it. Ergo...

[coarse sundial]

arguably they're bound by it by default given that they justified the creation of their nation under its dictates

explicitly

[stiff mango]

none of that is how anything has ever worked. My international relations professor is crying right now and he's dead.

[keen spear]

They aren't lol you can't be bound by a treaty that you do not sign

[coarse sundial]

i'm not an internation relations/treaty guy, but it would make sense to me you're founding your own nation under the explicit right given to you by the centaurus proclamation, and citing as such as a legal justification for doing so, you would be bound by any restrictions attached to the centaurus proclamation

[stiff mango]

I assure you there is no historical precedent for this.

[safe kite]

A large nation has never intervened to interfere with a smaller nation when it has acted out. Ever.

[stiff mango]

That's not a treaty applying, that's a choice.

[safe kite]

A large nation had never intervened to interfere with a smaller nation when it views the smaller nation isn't following international law. Ever.

[stiff mango]

Large nations act in defiance of treaties they didn't sign, and treaties they did sign, all the time. All power flows from the barrel of a gun.

The US doesn't even accept compulsory ICJ jurisdiction.

There are no consequences for not accepting it, unless there's a bigger nation that can come along and do what they will.

[safe kite]

Then we agree. The UC and FC signed a treaty with each other stating that 'No Great Faction' will have more than 3 systems.

In separate provisions, they claim their own 3 systems.

That isn't binding just the two, that is the two declaring that no one else gets any more than 3, and they are willing to enforce it. They have the big stick. They make the rules.

[keen spear]

Sure the UC can go around brandishing their bigger stick but like every time they did that it did not give them anything

[stiff mango]

International law is just treaties and countries agreeing to things, there is no world government to enforce it, and there's nothing in the Starfield lore to suggest any differently at the Settled Systems level.

[stiff mango]

that has nothing to do with the applicability of treaties. If anything, they can do that precisely because it DOESN'T apply.

[keen spear]

They won the narion war but got literally nothing from it and lost their claim on Niira, the clinic and has to pay war reparations because the mass protests in the UC got real bad, in the colony war they didn't get anything and lost two of their fancy weapons along with losing toliman and having mass resource scarcity that they still haven't fully recovered yet

[stiff mango]

"Sorry, you didn't sign the Treaty, therefore it applies to you" is not a position with any grounding in reality.

Not to mention a Treaty only applies to a polity until they decide it doesn't anymore. That's why we had to have a whole section of the Constitution in the US to stop random Presidents from just declaring them null and void, a provision that not every country has.

And another to keep States from entering into Treaties, which they totally could have without.

Because there is no such thing as International Law as a body of law, it's a field of political science study.

[safe kite]

"If you want to be a nation in the international community, you must abide by international law, or be branded a rogue state" is exactly how most international organizations function.

Moreover, as pointed out earlier, the treaty between the UC and FC specifically states that no party gets more than 3. They both agree that this is a rule that should apply universally. They both express a willingness to enforce it. The de facto rule, for any new colony or Faction, including HV, is you don't get to claim more than 3, or the UC and FC will jointly correct this.

Again, find any first party source that suggests otherwise.

[keen lintel]

Why would you want to be part of the international community tho

[safe kite]

The game says this.

"Well I don't think that's how treaties work, so the game must be wrong!"

Is not lore evidence.

[stiff mango]

I'm going to walk away from this insanity before I start quoting Swift.

[worn pendant]

What if some third party had four systems under their control and have never heard of such a treaty when they encounter the UC and FC? Like first time hearing of the two factions as well

[keen lintel]

They should stay isolated from those two dystopian factions as long as possible

[worn pendant]

Yeah but what if they made first contact now, what would these two do about it?

[keen lintel]

Depends

How strong is this faction

[safe kite]

Pretty good hook for an expansion story, no?

If a smaller weaker faction shows up and tries to expand, I don't think anyone (aside from like 3 people arguing semantics in this channel) would think that the UC and FC wouldn't intervene to keep the power balance in place.

If a stronger faction shows up?

Now that's interesting.

[keen lintel]

Lets say a long lost armada of earth ships that went the other way

[safe kite]

A... Terran Armada, you say?

[keen lintel]

😂

[worn pendant]

Their fleet size could be about the UC and FC fleets combined. They have four systems underneath their control.

[keen lintel]

What if they have 1.300 systems

[worn pendant]

What’s 1.300?

[keen lintel]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/expanse/images/8/88/RPGLaconiaLogoTransportUnionExpansion.png/revision/latest?cb=20240917200829

[worn pendant]

I don’t know what that means

[keen lintel]

Everyone uncultured bro nobody knows the laconian empire

[worn pendant]

I haven’t read or watched any of the Expanse stuff yet

[keen lintel]

Missing out, good novels

[heavy vigil]

Need to fix that 🙂 They're great

[keen lintel]

Authoritarian fictional faction: exists
Me: H-h-hi 😳 👉 👈

[stiff mango]

what if they have 67 systems

[keen lintel]

🤚 ✋

[safe kite]

⬆️ ⬇️

⬇️ ⬆️

[quasi belfry]

Dys is playing DDR

[safe kite]

Canonically, that is correct.

[keen lintel]

Anyway house varuun is the only moral faction and that's all that matters

[safe kite]

House Va'ruun currently has the highest kill count of House Va'ruun.

Your statement is canonically correct.

[keen lintel]

Those are traitors killing traitors

The real House Va'ruun is with Jandars hot daughter

[quaint pilot]

What is DDR?

[desert zinc]

The german name of east germany 🤣

Or Double Data Rate

Or a typo of RDR, who knows? 🤷‍♂️

He Won't Tell Us!

[quaint pilot]

It almost sounded suspiciously like D&D

[coarse sundial]

ngl my instinct re: terran armada is that they're from another universe but that's purely because of the color shift in the teaser and the fact that terran immediately makes me think star trek mirror universe

[keen spear]

Nah star trek didn't start the use of the word Terran in sci-fi, Terran is just another way of saying earthling.

[keen lintel]

We say Terra here

Or Tierra

[keen spear]

I'm more of the mind Bethesda is going to keep it more simple and it's probably going to be a colony from the early abandonment of earth like the Archimedes that hasn't kept in contact with the settled systems re-establishing contact

Terra is just latin for earth.

The multiverse stuff is largely contained to the main quest

[keen lintel]

Was about to correct you but you changrd it yourself

[keen spear]

Yea i remembered that Gaia is Greek for earth

[high copper]

Terrans from Starcraft are decedents of earth

[coarse sundial]

I'm aware that they didn't start it, obviously, but I think that pop culture generally associates the term with Trek.

[keen spear]

No lol

It's used constantly in sci-fi media, has been for a large part of the 1900s

[coarse sundial]

sure, but pop culture is a relatively narrow window

if you talk about alien abductions, the average consumer is going to picture x-files, signs or close encounters, not barsoom

[keen spear]

Its not

And no, people won't. The use of terra is not at all seen as star trek

[coarse sundial]

ok, man

[keen spear]

People don't attribute alien abductions to solely x files because again x files didn't invent nor make such a thing popular, same with the usage of terra.

[coarse sundial]

(as an aside: apologies, didn't check your pronouns, was a gender neutral "ok, man", will delete if you prefer)

[coarse sundial]

that's not remotely what I'm saying.

all I'm saying is that there's a strong pop culture association between the word "Terran" and crop tops, spooky lighting, evil goatees, the heavy implication that bisexuality makes you evil, and backstabbing.

Not that it's the sole use of the word.

Star Trek absolutely has a wider cultural footprint than, say, StarCraft. That's not a value judgment, just a fact.

[keen spear]

It's not a fact most people think of star trek when the word terra is used because it has been used by so many different sci-fi properties throughout the golden years of sci-fi both pre and post star trek. A Warhammer fan who has never watched star trek would associate it was Warhammer, a doctor who fan would associate it with doctor who, by this logic but people do not.

Terran is just latin, it's not associated with a specific franchise or ip

[coarse sundial]

It feels like you're purposefully misunderstanding what I'm saying.

I'm not saying that some people don't think of those things when they read the word terran.

Of course they do. People have unique experiences and interests.