starfield-lore

[obsidian glade]

I haven’t got that ending yet, once I’m burnt out on the quests I’ll start speed running NG+

[glacial arrow]

Woot, all Powers III now. Time to YEET!

Oh wait, should go unlock Environmental Conditioning 4 first so I can use this skill point.

[solemn bough]

you got a waaays to go

[glacial arrow]

Buried Temple is in the Masada system, right?

[solemn bough]

masada III

[glacial arrow]

I went, finished, left, and now I'm trying to go back, but I'm not seeing it in the Masada system.

Oh, there it is. Okay, so, Masada III doesn't get marked with a ...

[solemn bough]

wonder why only that temple is buried

[glacial arrow]

That may well have been intentional by the Guardians.

Bury it, build a base atop it, guard it forever

[solemn bough]

also the buried temple makes me think the other temples may have been intended to house the artifacts themselves

[glacial arrow]

They don't need to keep all the Artifacts to prevent new Starborn, after all. They only need a single one.

If even one is missing, no one can build the Armillary.

[solemn bough]

no reason to think they would want to prevent new starborn

[glacial arrow]

What are you on about? The whole fricking Thing the Emissary has going is preventing new Starborn

[solemn bough]

the emissary didn't build the buried temple or decide to leave it buried underground

or put the last artifact there

[glacial arrow]

You can't actually know those last two latter parts

[solemn bough]

can you offer me a potential scenario in which that makes any sense at all

[glacial arrow]

But I suspect it was something to do with the Guardians.

Given the complete lack of any other temple being even the tinest bit buried, I feel like it had to be intentional to seal the temple away.

[solemn bough]

intentional by who? wouldnt it be whoever built them?

[glacial arrow]

Now, I don't believe the Emissary did it.... but I do think the Guardians might have.

[solemn bough]

other starborn?

[glacial arrow]

Well, that's another question I've had for a long while

[solemn bough]

in that case, why not bury all the other temples?

[glacial arrow]

I'm not convinced the Guardians are normal Starborn

[glacial arrow]

As I said, you don't need to protect everything. Keeping even a single Artifact out of reach makes Unity impossible.

[solemn bough]

okay, but why only do one if you could bury them all and keep them all hidden? would that not be better?

[glacial arrow]

Because as we saw at the Buried Temple, even focusing all their defensive power on a single location isn't always enough.

[solemn bough]

you know what would be better than letting them have 23 artifacts but just focusing on keeping the last one hidden? hiding all 24 to begin with. especially when the buried temple being buried didnt stop anyone for long

[broken flower]

(sings) Show me the way to Armillary

[glacial arrow]

There's also another possibility. The Buried Temple may be the primary temple.

Which may explain the unusual amount of Guardians and trials.

[solemn bough]

okay but what makes it special compared to the other 23 temples? why is it buried? why is it the only one to house an artifact?

[glacial arrow]

The Hunter and Emissary bring their Artifacts to the Buried Temple each time for the final battle.

[solemn bough]

the only thing special about it besides being buried and having all those starborn appear to defend it is that it has the artifact that is tied to phased time which is probably the strongest power in the game

[broken flower]

it’s a trap!

[solemn bough]

why do they do that though? as far as i can tell, they could just swoop down and grab that artifact and build the armillary whereever they want

[glacial arrow]

Because they're trying to entrap you or whichever members of Constellation are in your place.

[solemn bough]

so what does that have to do with the nature of the temple itself

[glacial arrow]

Nothing. They're using its defenses as a trap. The fact it's unique among all the temples is probably secondary.

Alternatively, it's a place they both have sentiment toward, a fitting place for a final battle

[solemn bough]

okay but i think we were talking about what makes the buried temple special

my original question being why is it buried when every other temple is above ground

[glacial arrow]

Again, if we're considering the Buried Temple might be special, there's a few reasons: a crapton of what I assume are Unity-spawned Guardians, and several trials posed by what's most likely the Unity itself.

[solemn bough]

i guess one bit of context we should consider was the buried temple was created towards the end of development when they panicked and realized they never made an area for the game's final battle

[glacial arrow]

As for being buried, that could either be intentional by whoever built the Temples... or it could've been done by the Unity as part of its trials.

[solemn bough]

i'm not asking what are the things that make it unique, i'm wondering WHY it is so different. not HOW, but WHY

[glacial arrow]

Fine, it's different because it tests you

[solemn bough]

sigh lol

[orchid finch]

But does it really? or is it just old automated defense tech from a fallen civ?

[solemn bough]

i dont think the other starborn are automated. but who knows really. it doesnt make a whole lot of sense when you start to wonder what all the other starborn in the game are trying to accomplish

[orchid finch]

what little of it remains anyways.

[solemn bough]

i just always assumed they were like working for the hunter or the emissary in some capacity and tried not to think about it too hard

[glacial arrow]

Why is it different? Probably because it's important to the workings of the Unity somehow, or is some kind of Temple Prime, or because it was designed to be a trial. There's ZERO information besides the actual differences.

[orchid finch]

not the starbon themselves, the final temple and getting pulled through ( for lack of better words) the echos in time.

[solemn bough]

oh yeah

that whole thing is bizarre. especially when the collector starts talking and appears to be possessed

[glacial arrow]

There's NO information. None. All we can do is look at what's there and make assumptions.

-It's got special trials
-It's got what I'm nearly certain are Guardians summoned by the Temple and/or Unity, rather than normal Starborn
-It's buried, almost certainly to force approachers to take its aforementioned trials

[solemn bough]

i know, i was kind of just wondering aloud

[glacial arrow]

As for why, probably as a sort of test by the Creators, Temple, or Unity.

We just don't know, but that's what it looks and acts like.

[solemn bough]

a test for who though? the temple has already been excavated long before the player even starts to collect the artifacts

[glacial arrow]

For anyone seeking the Unity.

[solemn bough]

a test to see if humans know how to dig? lol

[glacial arrow]

If we go off of the Hunter and Emissary, it seems the Buried Temple is extremely important for an undisclosed reason.

And it's not just there for your benefit, look at how absolutely trashed the place is before you even show up.

[solemn bough]

yeah thats what im speculating about. is it actually more important than the other temples or is it just one of the 24 that happens to be a more unique setting? were all the temples originally underground and eventually "unearthed" themselves and something went wrong with the buried temple?

[glacial arrow]

I'm gonna go with being 99% certain the Buried Temple is meant to be buried, because again, TRIALS. They don't !@#$ing matter if the temple is aboveground and you can just go around them.

[solemn bough]

and thats another thing i wondered about, who actually contracted all those ecliptics to guard the place? the hunter? the emissary? someone else? theres a clear air of mystery around the ecliptic client but i wasnt sure if we're just supposed to think "oh yeah its the hunter" or what

[solemn bough]

but then why would they bury just the one and not all of them

[glacial arrow]

Why would they bury them all?

[solemn bough]

trials?

[glacial arrow]

You don't need trials at all the temples....

[solemn bough]

why are we only testing them in one place? what was the point of spreading them all around then?

the buried temple is there to test if you can fight, and the other 23 are just there to test if you can find them?

[glacial arrow]

The trials are more than just fights. The Unity is asking how you think.

[solemn bough]

the buried temple is a straight fight

at what point is it asking how you think?

[glacial arrow]

No, in between the fights.

[solemn bough]

you mean in the parts where it doesnt matter what you say or do?

you can be friendly to vlad or just straight up murder him and you get the same result. so what is it testing?

[glacial arrow]

That, yes. It doesn't matter what your answers are - existence only needs to exist, regardless of form.

It's simply observing your current state.

[solemn bough]

then why is there a test at all lmao

[glacial arrow]

We don't know. Hells, this whole damn thing could be one giant test to see if humanity is worthy or something, being observed by whoever's running the temples.

[hollow vine]

the test imo proves you're worthy of going to a new universe

[solemn bough]

but its impossible to fail the test

[glacial arrow]

The test isn't there to keep you out of the Temple.

[solemn bough]

not to mention there is absolutely no concept of being "worthy" of the infinite in the game except for the emissary's ideology

the unity you even tells you it doesnt really matter how you feel about it

[surreal yew]

Too much tinfoilhattery, it's just a gameplay device coded by the devs.

[hollow vine]

but we don't know if others have failed we only know of a certain few that have succeeded

[solemn bough]

i sort of alluded to that before, but what else is this channel for if not to speculate on the game's mysteries?

[solemn bough]

yeah but no matter how you respond to the "test", you pass. doesnt really make a good test or make the player feel they've been tested

[hollow vine]

who knows a random joe could've failed the tests the unity is a mysterious mistress

[surreal yew]

If you fought all the way through and failed some sort of test, would you like the game better?

[glacial arrow]

For the love of Unity. Is it this impossible for you to grasp that there might be outside observers taking notes on how you respond, or something?

[solemn bough]

also if those little portals to other realities or whatever they are are just kind of sitting around in the buried temple i dont know what would have stopped them from putting the same things in other temples. so what does that have to do with it being buried underground again?

[solemn bough]

i mean yeah, maybe? but we've completely gotten away from the subject here lol

[hollow vine]

what is the test if it's not testing what are choices are and you respond to different questions with simpler answers

[glacial arrow]

.... what do you mean, ~away from subject~? YOU are the one asking for answers about the tests.

[solemn bough]

what i'm wondering is

1. why is the buried temple buried
2. why is it the only one to actually house its respective artifact

and i'm not looking for hard answers, just wondering aloud and others can offer their own hypotheses. but if they don't make sense or answer the question, i'm gonna shoot em down for the sake of accuracy

[glacial arrow]

Sweet merciful mother of Unity, you're driving me mad

[solemn bough]

because you're the one who told me the buried temple might be buried because of these tests

now you're telling me its not really a test so much as a survey

[glacial arrow]

I'm gonna go hit my face on a table for a bit.

[solemn bough]

hope it knocks something loose

[hollow vine]

everyone has their different theories and thoughts on what, where, why, when, and how every test affects everything

[glacial arrow]

May your footsteps be cursed by legos

[solemn bough]

okay well the "tests" are also total speculation. there's no reason to think the unity is testing us (unless someone has some evidence in favor of that)

the unity seems to me to be wholly ambivalent of our actions

[surreal yew]

https://tenor.com/view/fml-sylvester-cat-annoyed-head-bang-gif-13045781

[solemn bough]

it doesnt care if you're good or evil or smart or stupid or anything. it's just there

[orchid finch]

The simple answer is what ever the temple was designed for it is now broken and mostly defunct. Maybe at some point the "tests" were designed to determine if you ended up like the hunter or the emmisary. But now it is just a broken pile of rubble with a few barely functioning features from a long forgotten civilization.

[hollow vine]

we never know. but here's a question, if in every universe we have to collect the artifacts is there a universe where there's no artifacts?

[glacial arrow]

Literally no one has been able to so much as even slightly harm an Artifact

It may well be that they're multidimensional objects like the Unity and therefore impossible to destroy since you can only attack them from a single universe at once.

[hollow vine]

i didn't say harm i said what if there was none

[glacial arrow]

Given the ubiquity of the Unity in all universes, the Artifacts are pretty much a guarantee

[solemn bough]

except in the universes where they aren't

[hollow vine]

true but just a what if

[glacial arrow]

And if throwing them into a star or black hole worked, then the Emissary would've done it already

[orchid finch]

or they are just some metal/tech composite that we have not discovered how to make yet...largely because the people that have them are too busy trying to break them vs actually understand them.

[solemn bough]

dropping them into the ocean would have worked well in terms of gameplay lol

[glacial arrow]

Obviously not, or the Emissary would've just done that.

There's clearly some kind of function in play, otherwise yeeting them into an ocean/black hole/nearest star is absolutely the answer.

The fact that the one who most wants to stop people from abusing them isn't doing so is proof there's something blocking that from working.

We don't know what, but clearly disposal is not a working solution.

[solemn bough]

not necessarily though. the emissary doesn't want to just stop evil starborn, he wants to create good starborn. otherwise like you were saying before, he could just take one artifact and run. but he continues to seek them all out, even going so far as to risk losing them to the hunter in order to obtain the remainder

[orchid finch]

The better question on the artifacts is...do they reset to the default locations after you pass through the unity for someone else to figure out? But then if they did that wouldnt Noel's research mess things up for future explorers?

[solemn bough]

one would think though that the creators would have designed some kind of contingency for if an artifact were to be destroyed

[solemn bough]

they might go to their respective temples. i cant imagine why they would go back to random caves unless they were deliberately placed there by the creators to begin with

but who knows. if all the artifacts get sent back to their "original positions" what would happen to the actual armillary?

[orchid finch]

on the other hand, they could have been ment as a one time key to escape a dieing universe now that i think about it.

[solemn bough]

maybe the buried temple is supposed to also house the armillary and that's why it's special compared to the other temples. see, that wasn't hard lol

[solemn bough]

well it isn't dying very quickly. humans were clearly meant to eventually discover these things too

[obsidian eagle]

but if it would be a one time key, then you should not be able to chose to get back in you universe?

[orchid finch]

key could not be consumed so to speak untill you step through the unity, vs just standing at the door.

[obsidian eagle]

but then everything the unity tells you would be a lie, as it tells you what will happen when you away, but by you logic that would not be true

[orchid finch]

at any rate my working theory now is the builders/creators were in danger of being wiped out and built a gate to a parallel universe to escape their fate. Only in doing so they caused their universe to crash into ALL universes scattering temples/artifacts into all of them. And after all of that they still died out.

[solemn bough]

what is the purpose then of the entity that lives in that space and speaks to you as if you're beginning a journey of personal discovery rather than escaping a cataclysm?

[orchid finch]

Malfunctioning AI?

[solemn bough]

actually the whole game is just a dream then you wake up on the helgen cart

[heavy vigil]

That's the reward for going through the Unity 100 times. It loads into the cart

[orchid finch]

@solemn bough if you have not watched it watch the movie Moonfall. that might be the best way to explain the guy (you) you meet in the unity. It would make sense too given that he mentioned that he stares at the unity forever( though not quite so directly).

[solemn bough]

i mean i'm totally on board with the idea of the unity being a super advanced ai designed to aid people on their journey through to the next universe. but i see no reason to think it's malfunctioning

[solemn bough]

then you hit pause and realize you still have all your starborn powers

imagine how much less of a problem dragons would be when you have command over gravity

[glacial arrow]

Oh! That was... alarming. Okay, level 85 Maggotmaw isn't to be underestimated. The bloody farker just clobbered the Unity-loving crap out of me in a few hits.

[leaden gale]

The unity is probably the end point of the crucible project.

[glacial arrow]

Ehhhhh.... feels

It seems like a smaller scale Unity, sorta, but I don't really see any actual connection tying the two just yet.

[obsidian sentinel]

try level 100 ... they 2 hit you or 1 hit you...

[leaden gale]

Other than the clones behaving exactly like starborn do with regards to having memories that are not their own and skills they have never performed before being spawned?

[glacial arrow]

Pretty common cloning thing, can't necessarily attribute that to Unity.

Also, the Unity doesn't (or doesn't just) clone you. Your sense of self, your unbroken awareness, your consciousness, lives on and on and on, according to Unity You.

Alternately, it could do such a perfect cloning job that you simply think your consciousness carried on, all without realizing you're a copy.

That... could actually explain apparent degeneration of self in older Starborn who've seen many universes, I suppose.

However.... it does nothing to explain how it's shifting you around in time and space.... so I'm not so inclined to believe the Unity clones you.

[leaden gale]

Not with Hadrian

[glacial arrow]

Yes, we know. I meant it's a fairly common thing to see in clones in general (not just in Starfield). It's hardly something that all of them have to the extent of Amelia or that Egyptian chick.

[leaden gale]

The point isn't that all of them remember being someone that they are not. The point is that. Crucible displays the capability.

[glacial arrow]

They don't all remember, the Slates make that crystal clear.

There's an indoctrination program that's specifically mentioned, and Gengis's didn't take well, as one example.

Some remember more than others, and of the ones with known names, they're taught the history of their origin.

[leaden gale]

Yes. This is the beginning of a program that takes a ridiculous amount of years to complete.

[glacial arrow]

And appears to be Freestar Collective in origin, too

Safeguards in place specifically to wipe the place out in case of a UC attack, for instance.

[faint cave]

Or a company in Neon. Nishina was also privately funded by a Hadron Consortium, but where they are based is still unknown.

[glacial arrow]

Given how long ago the program started, and the concerns of a UC invasion, that smacks too much of Freestar war programs.

[slate valley]

Once upon a time, a billion years ago, there was a super advanced civilisation that had built a portal into the multiverse. They used that portal and their civilisation spread into all the universes. Then one day disaster struck the the star their planet orbited went supernova and blew their civilisation and portal away, scattering the portals bits through local space and burying the pieces in moons and planets.
The survivors eventually died out and their species went extinct apart from the handful of "people" who were traversing the portal at the moment it blew up, trapping them for all eternity. They are the unity, they are the ones who spoke to that Mars dude who killed Earth, and Jinan VaRuun and the dude who becomes Hunter/Pilgrim/Emissary.
As for the Armillary - it remains on your ship after you step through the unity, to be found by anyone who discovers your now derelict ship (unless a companion turned back). Only the Constellation members know to dismantle the armilary first before powering up the grav drive in order to fly the ship anywhere.
Anyway, thats my theory. No correspondence will be entered into. I've spent many many hours reading through all your different theories.

[obsidian glade]

🤔

[astral walrus]

The Great Orc disaster?

[glacial arrow]

[glad jacinth]

Varun? In trailer we see similar tech

[glacial arrow]

I really, really doubt Crucible was related to the House, not one singular mention of a snake.

[solemn bough]

this is great! love to see someone trying to put it all together like that. i know you said you wouldn't be replying but one thing i might point out as not making sense is that a supernova takes a pretty long time to occur, and you'd think that a civilization that was able to build the artifacts probably would have been able to see that coming and prepare for it.

but it would also explain something. if, in their hubris, they never colonized other worlds thinking they didn't need to only to then be destroyed. then one of them goes to victor aiza to try and prevent the same thing from happening to us

[glacial arrow]

Except that it was made completely clear to Victor what the cost would be and why.

He knew before even proposing development that it'd destroy the planet.

[solemn bough]

yeah but someone still had to go to him with that knowledge

[glacial arrow]

then one of them goes to victor aiza to try and prevent the same thing from happening to us

[solemn bough]

where are you getting confused

[glacial arrow]

prevent the same

How did Victor destroying the world prevent devastation, exactly?

[solemn bough]

it prevented a situation in which we would be destroyed without having time to leave first

potentially anyway, according to that hypothesis

[glacial arrow]

Oh, I thought you meant losing homeworld

[solemn bough]

basically to kick start humanity into spreading out to the settled systems so they'd be more resilient against potential future disasters that would have threatened the earth

its wobbly though

like you'd think as advanced as the creators must have been they would have figured out a better solution

[solemn bough]

i did. but it's like if i knew your house would be destroyed by a meteor tomorrow so i set your house on fire today so you are forced to vacate it and find shelter elsewhere. otherwise the meteor would kill you AND destroy your house

[molten sequoia]

Okay so I think I have the answer to what the unity is

https://youtu.be/2EYCNOMO7h8?si=5-1g_C-eEGOHu7Cn

[little citrus]

The terminals in the Facility do mention the UC, old earth, goverments, being approached by a "Council", its very confusing but there is surely a faction behind Starseed, the Beagle terminals mentions getting help from the UC to find a suitable planet not the FC, so its really unclear.

Despite completing the questline twice now I still haven't wrapped my head around it all.

[glacial arrow]

The terminal in the Beagle is wishing they could access UC starmaps, but in the facility, they have an Anti-UC safeguard. Which together tells me the faction behind it were AGAINST the UC and had no access to UC data.

It isn't something Va'ruun, Spacers, or Crimson would do. So either it's an unknown group, or it's the Freestar Collective's.

In the first place, the program was designed to conquer the Settled Systems, so it's probably not even Freestar's.

[little citrus]

Yeah I definitely mistook them wishing they had access to that data as they're affiliated with the UC.

[little citrus]

The Freestar theory seems fitting but them trying to conquer the entire Settled Systems seems out of character for the Freestar really, the most probable suspect is a completely unknown faction we haven't seen before, a deep state faction lurking somewhere ruled by a council maybe

[copper ocean]

Starfield Enclave 👀👀👀

[broken flower]

poor Ryujin (named for the Dragon God), never getting credit

[high copper]

https://tenor.com/view/afham-ryuji-goda-yakuza-kiwami-gif-21115251

[remote cedar]

The Beagle and project Starseed was probably some UC black project, they have many of those they just forget about. Like the player finding the UC lab where they tried to domesticate/militarize Terrormorphs. UC didn't even bother sending a team to gather the bodies.

[glacial arrow]

>in event of UNITED COLONIES invasion of facility, destroy project

Clearly not United Colonies if it was so totally fine to leave facility intact if literally anyone else found it.

[remote cedar]

UC being the only ones who'd have a legal standing to arrest and prosecute, result higher ups in UC losing power from the scandal.

[glacial arrow]

Except that if it was UC, they could get the UC starmaps they needed.

[remote cedar]

Like the Kreet blacksite got the security and evac they needed?

Or how if there's one common unifying theme to UC black projects it's that they're extremely incompetently run?

Actually, that's a theme with UC projects in general.

"One of our heavy cruisers with hundreds on board crashed on a nearby planet, should we check for survivors?" "Nah, we found the captain and a ship that size has half a dozen shuttles, you want to spend 15 minutes checking for survivors or do you want to finish our shift by 5pm?"

[solemn bough]

So I got to the part after the NASA base and off Al people to be like your just going to believe them based off a feeling is Andreja like really don't you believe in some imaginary snake god.

lol

tbf in the evil andreja lodge start she claims the serpent spoke to her directly

idk if she ever says that normally though

[glad jacinth]

No

[solemn bough]

https://imgur.com/a/JoYzRew
Behold Agent No 1 true face

[faint cave]

Is it possible for a Terrormorph to become Starborn? Like one touched an artifact and gathered the rest through enthralled humans?

[solemn bough]

what if a heat leech is on your ship when you jump into the unity?

[faint cave]

That's...that's scarily more plausible.

[pastel brook]

When a starborn get killed does he stop existing like definitive end for this starborn.
or did he just reappears in a new universe with the memory of being killed.

[glacial arrow]

We have zero information about that. The only thing we know is that the death of one somehow generates a 'Quantum Essence', and what we can infer from "Your Eternity ends!" is that death is probably pretty final even for Starborn.

[pastel brook]

I think that quantum essence is the little bit of us that we left behind us when going trough the unity eatch time no?

[glacial arrow]

In which case, we're fueling our Starborn powers with the remaining soul shreds of the poor sap we just murdered.

"Hey, hope you don't mind that I'm gonna waste your soul on casting Elemental Pull IV a couple times."

Totally worthwhile use of someone's very ESSENCE OF BEING, yep.

"Hey, I wanna give my buddy a lightshow using Particle Beam, so die for me, okay?"

[pastel brook]

Seam legit since lost they don’t get to change the universe with their soul. Making the hunter point of view about winning at all cost even better

[faint cave]

It's small comfort in the fact they're also trying to do this to you.

[glacial arrow]

"I saw a spider in my Habitat, so I'ma just use your soul to fuel Supernova, kay?"

[faint cave]

"Lucky you, I have a Cagebrain in mine."

[glacial arrow]

I think the Unity eats any remaining Quantum Essence you've got with you, too

[faint cave]

Greedy donkey

[pastel brook]

So what happened after you go trough the unity to the remaining essence ?

[glacial arrow]

The Unity is ... everything. Eternity. It sits, waiting and watching eternally over all the cosmos, the beating heart of infinite universes. From it, all comes, and to it, all returns.

If I had to make a guess, expending a Quantum Essence probably returns it to the universe. As a Starborn's abilities are those of the cosmos itself, this exchange appears to result in a brief surge of energy.

[pastel brook]

I really hope we get a dlc to explore that kind of stuff

[glacial arrow]

It's too bad you can't get a temporary or even permanent boost based on essences still on hand by the time you get to Unity, but those essences belong to the universe you're leaving behind, so that makes sense.

[pastel brook]

Maybe in a future dlc or even the shattered space one

[solemn bough]

it is kinda funny (if its canon and not strictly gameplay) that the creators appear to have coded in a reward for killing other starborn

[plucky plover]

It would be cool if they had allowed you to play rock music in game and it was called "old earth music" or something, and then if you play it on the ship, your companions could comment like Bones does in Star Trek Beyond when the Beastie boys were playing during the final battle and he says "Is that classical music?" haha. Or Sarah saying that she likes your taste in music since she used to be in a band lol.

[obsidian glade]

They would have to pay royalties to any artist who’s music was played in game . FO4 used ancient songs that were probably public domain ?

[heady widget]

This is going to sound dumb but why wasn't there any british, french, dutch, Chinese settled planets considering there is states like the the freestar republic and United colonies which is obviously the continuation of the USA?

[daring lake]

They be dead if you kill them. At least I've never see The Hunter resurrect himself
after I take him out. Empirical evidence.

[analog junco]

It isn't all too different than soul trapping Nazeem and then using the soul gem to enchant your Iron boots with levitation so you can go to the cloud district as often as you please.

[pastel brook]

Ok let me ask you what you think Let’s say you « kill » the hunter number 1 in universe 1 then go to universe 2 where you meet hunter 2
Is hunter 1permanently destroyed or does he « resurrect » in universe number « insert random number here » where he is sad/ happy/ bored because now the score between him and the emissary/us is 183 victory for 142 death or something like that

[solemn bough]

not really. it seems the rule is that starborn turn into particles when they "die". the reason hunter and emissary's body stick around at the end is likely a gameplay thing so you can loot their weapons

[daring lake]

I find it hard to agree with that Clarence. Say what you see. They die, Just as "You" dies imo

[solemn bough]

why dont their bodies disappear then, like yours or other starborn?

[daring lake]

I don't know. Gameplay is a thing as you say. But "You" dies, and
the game re-spawns the character at the last save point. Never
had the chance to look for my body after I die 🙂

[solemn bough]

i believe you see the particle effect when you die as a starborn. by "you" you mean the PC, right?

[daring lake]

Yes ... "You" is the player character.

[solemn bough]

even when the PC isn't a starborn, they restart from the last checkpoint when they die. that's for gameplay reasons

[daring lake]

Yes. We play a game.

[solemn bough]

and since its a game world, sometimes things happen that conflict with lore for the player's benefit. like how you get to keep playing even if your character dies, or how the hunter and emissary's bodies dont vanish so that you can get their loot

those things shouldnt be taken as canon

[daring lake]

We never meet a Hunter who remembers being beaten. Aquilas is a version of Hunter,
and he does not remember being beaten. Each Emissary we meet appears to know
nothing of what has passed before. So, from the players perspective, it seems that
they die (or live out their lives in the current Uni)
I feel that is consistent with each Uni being, if not different, then at least new in a sense

[solemn bough]

what do you mean the emissary knows nothing of what has passed before?

[silk lotus]

Maybe the hunter an emissary are just dying very slowly?

And arent fully dead when you loot them?

[solemn bough]

and why would that be

[silk lotus]

We didnt kill them hard enough?

[solemn bough]

lol

if starborn can die, i think it would be a different kind of death than it is for humans. so different even that calling it "death" might not be appropriate

or maybe we die when we enter the unity and our starborn selves are just a magical projection and thats why they fall into nothingness when they "die"

the game does talk about the law of conservation of mass when you enter the unity

[obsidian glade]

when i die as a starborn i turn into pixie dust aka quantum essence and return to my last save , maybe that happens to all starborn. they just restart from last save.

[solemn bough]

possibly. but as i always point out, you start at your last save when you die regardless of if you're starborn

also, how do NPCs save their game? lol

[high copper]

I bet npc's quicksave before they criticise you

[solemn bough]

it all makes sense now

[high copper]

that's why they all insult you freely

[solemn bough]

thats why skyrim npcs always shout "you never should have come here" right before you cave their skull in

[leaden gale]

I think Clarence is right about looting them. They have unique weapons, and if you did that awesome fight and didn't get loot, you might feel let down.

[high copper]

I mean, the weapons could be the only thing left they drop, their body would disappear only leaving the weapon behind

[leaden gale]

My first fight I chose to fight both of them and it was so hard and so fun.

[solemn bough]

you can get the emissary's armor too tho

not sure why you can get theirs and not hunters

[leaden gale]

Bethesda is a buggy game. I don't doubt it was done normally to minimize chances of failure to collect. Every single starborn you ever kill in every other happenstance becomes stardust. You do, too.

https://tenor.com/view/david-bowie-david-bowie-gif-8355841

[spiral stirrup]

The population of the settled systems must be really low. The colony war had 30k UC casualties and it was devastating, and Vae victis says your terrormorphs efforts will save thousands, maybe millions of lives.

I just wonder if it supposed to be 10 million humans left or like 200 million left?

Either way, way down from 8 billion

The president says we save thousands of lives too

[obsidian glade]

the whole Va'ruun culture is based off the survivors of 1 colony ship. humanity took a hit for sure.

maybe the inbreeding and weak gene pool explains alot about the Va'ruun

[visual cipher]

Ive found serpentis when ever i grav jump there va'ruun zealots attack me so i tend to wipe out the zealots

[leaden gale]

Good place to level up ship combat perks.

[glad jacinth]

Poor world building

[upper drum]

Definitely a micro fraction of the population survived. I'd argue it may not have even been close to 10 million as many popular theories land at. When Earth began to fail, an unprepared world had 50 years to get advanced enough to flee and settle new worlds. I don't remember off the top of my head if he says our efforts will save millions, but he's definitely talking in big picture phrases if he does. As in long terms. Over all saves throughout the future. Because who knows how many lives the terrormorphs would claim before anyone actually figured out how to stop them, even 100 years from now etc.

[faint cave]

I wonder if they could have built large bases on the Moon or Mars and evacuated people therr, disregarding grav drives and just trying to get as many people off world as possible.

[slate valley]

You need resources to support large populations. Neither Mars nor Luna has anywhere enough water for that.

They essentially moved who they could then turned their backs and abandoned all the rest. Most people would have died from oxygen depravation. Gasping for breath while their lungs screamed in agony.

[broken flower]

I’d like to think fleets of Starborn ships evacuated all the cats

https://tenor.com/view/alien-cat-aliencat-gonehome-abducted-gif-5078582

[glad jacinth]

And Great Serpent saved all dogs

I "hate" Bethesda for that 😦

[broken flower]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-floating-in-space-cute-gif-11851331

[glacial arrow]

"Saved" sure is a funny way to spell 'ate'.

[glacial arrow]

Cascading failure: sputtering atmo means less oxygen, less oxygen means less carbon dioxide, less carbon dioxide means less plants, less plants means less oxygen.

[glad jacinth]

🙃

[hushed stag]

I think pet animals could be evacuated with humans before abandoning Earth after its destruction.

And everyone could care about their pets they owned. They shouldn’t be left behind

[silk lotus]

I mean resources were a concern after abandoning earth. Even if they landed on jemison argucultral resources would be scarse. Wouldn't be practical to bring mouths that take up food and water but cant contribute to society in any way.

More like survival.

[upper drum]

It's kinda crazy how often the "How many people survived- Pets!" Talk revolves back around in here lol.

This was my take on pets.

[glacial arrow]

🙄 Obviously only the rich would've escaped.

Well, that and some support folks who have skills they'd need to survive.

Like those ...several rich families who all pooled their resources to create the ECS Constant.

[glacial arrow]

Well, that's interesting, I just noticed something: the Emissary can and sometimes does change during the course of a single Unity run.

Originally, it was Barrett who showed up the first couple times, but it was Sarah in the Buried Temple.

[analog junco]

I never noticed that, like changing mid playthrough?

[glacial arrow]

Yep. Like I said, I noticed it because at Neon, the meeting, and Earth, it was Barrett... but in the Buried Temple, it was Sarah.

I also noticed something else along the way. Between Earth and Buried Temple, it looks like Hunter's helmet got damaged.

Someone else had mentioned noticing a scar on Hunter's helmet, and I looked on Earth for it, but his helmet seemed flawless. In Buried Temple, it appeared to have taken a bit of a beating.

[solemn bough]

got a screenshot? i just looked up a video of the buried temple encounter and his helmet looks fine

[glacial arrow]

It's the scratch across his cheek

[solemn bough]

https://i.imgur.com/4Q5hFJ6.png

maybe a certain condition needs to be met

[glacial arrow]

Did you side with either of them?

[solemn bough]

i think that was a side with emissary run

[glacial arrow]

I told them both to pike off.

Also, I was redoing main quest.

[solemn bough]

yeah i did that ten times but i don't ever remember a scar on hunter's helmet. and why would that make a difference anyway

[glacial arrow]

Huh, that's interesting, I'm not seeing it on reloading

[solemn bough]

maybe a visual bug

[glacial arrow]

Might've been, or the light hitting it differently.

[grave ferry]

Anyone have any theories on why there would be an Argos mining jacket in a storage box near the Pilgrim’s Final Writing? Is he us???

[analog junco]

https://tenor.com/view/theworldmayneverknow-idk-goodquestion-gif-5415227

[daring lake]

Is it always there? On different NG+ runs I mean.
Most loot is random afaik. But good spot ... which means I have
to go and take a look 🙂

[grave ferry]

Feel free to take a look, I didn’t consider the loot being random

[daring lake]

Yeah, I have to look, I have to find out 😄

[leaden gale]

I've had that happen. Fairly certain it's a bug based on who is your second most approved by companion.

[keen acorn]

The game rotates different Hunters after Unity. You see different helmets and if you dialogue properly see different faces. I forget how many Unities I have been through. It is where multiple Hunters are noticed. Its harder to tell for the Emissary unless the let you view them - based on dialogue. To me it is interesting. It demonstrates multiverse varieties. Hunter again is easiest to point to. In one NG+ The hunter (usually with the scar) asks you to kill Aquilus (no scar). But its another version of The Hunter.

[solemn bough]

you mean different emissaries? the hunter is always the same

and i don't believe either of their helmets ever change

[keen acorn]

Yes its harder to tell the Different emissaries unless they open the helmet based on dialogue.

[keen acorn]

go through unity over 100 times you see the different ones. But yes Emissary does not change - its Hunters Helmet that changes.

[solemn bough]

i'm gonna guess you don't have any evidence of this and none exists anywhere else online

would that be accurate?

[keen acorn]

You can't post pictures here. I will DM you my documented Time in Starfield.

[solemn bough]

you can upload it to any image hosting site and embed it here. dm is fine too though

to be clear im asking for evidence of the different helmets and faces, not how many hours you've played the game for

[keen acorn]

So over 2,620.1 hours. I have been through Unity a lot. There are pictures elsewhere of the various Hunter faces etc.

[solemn bough]

if you can find even one, i'll eat my hat

[keen acorn]

Do you looking around, do over 100 unities. I wont do your work for you.

[solemn bough]

lmao

[keen acorn]

I just sent a pic of two different Hunters in DM to you.

[solemn bough]

https://i.imgur.com/SmZetrq.jpeg

[glacial arrow]

No, I can tell the Emissary voices apart, so it was highly noticeable when it stopped being Barrett and became Sarah.

[keen acorn]

Yeah emissary voices are distinct.

I had Sarah meet me at The Buried Temple, But when she spawned it was Andreja. Its the Voices you notice. Like Sarah says meet you at the Buried Temple and its Barrett. LOL

[solemn bough]

yeah so being as how these are clearly two NPCs standing in the same shot i'm gonna assume its a "young hunter" mod or something. it's also absolutely silly that they would make you go through the unity over 100 times just for some tiny easter egg

or thats the player on the left

[leaden gale]

I've been through... idk, I have the Solis armor. I have not seen the Hunter as of Solis. Every Hunter up until Solis has had the scar for me.

NG +5

[glacial arrow]

Something I'm noticing is how eerily the Starborn can seem to influence humans. Whenever you speak of destiny, fate, and the future, they appear to suffer a brief bout of strong confusion, followed by rather blindly submitting to whatever you're pushing.

Nothing I saw of Shattered Space looked even remotely like anything that could be related to the Unity or Starborn, but the seeming mind-affecting comparisons stood out to me.

At this point, we've seen Terrormorphs, Starborn, and Va'ruun all have some kind of effect, lesser or greater, on the human mind.

Or perhaps what the Starborn do isn't exactly a mind trick - it's probably something more like probability fixing, whereby speaking of the future, they 'make it real' to an extent, or at least more likely. And so the people they're dealing with are pulled along by destiny's call, regardless of how they initially felt.

[solemn bough]

can you give an example of this? npcs tend to submit pretty easily to the player regardless of starborn affiliation

like asking if you can see the earth savior award

[silk lotus]

I can think of Sara saying something along the lines if it feels as if you were always a member of constalation.

Which means that maybe the unity is effecting her in how she perceives us. Like we are always there when we were only in another universe.

[obsidian glade]

It’s just really heavy Deja vu

[analog junco]

Maybe the Unity was the friends we made along the way?

[solemn bough]

in a starborn or normal playthrough?

[silk lotus]

Starborn.

[glacial arrow]

Starborn. Sarah recognizes you before you ever meet her, in fact.

[glacial arrow]

When you pull a Starborn option on them, specifically. A good example is the Cabinet when trying to get the Archives.

Everyone was totally opposed but the moment you tell them the Archives are fated to be opened, they all get super confused and do complete 180s, like they have to do so, as if you'd set that future in stone.

[silk lotus]

I mean isnt creators peace technically some kind of mind control anyway?

[solemn bough]

sorta, but all that does is make people non-violent. and non-starborn are capable of using low level versions of those powers too

[obsidian glade]

Ryujin has an implant for that too , where you can manipulate people to do things

[leaden gale]

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-identification-jedi-obi-wan-you-dont-need-too-see-his-identification-gif-16739138

[jaunty ginkgo]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/720906798311407619/1268444398643974175/image.png?ex=66ac7267&is=66ab20e7&hm=8b0586ec5e2c34b3457d8cb3da1de356a7ace1f62db516b00387e9624f2f7e3e& Does the statue in New Atlantis port depicts the MAST building or the tower in Shattered Space artwork? Or both?https://images.ctfassets.net/rporu91m20dc/3CshvaU4wMIkCP7stA7w4s/6d319246a467b948ba2046db887406f7/Starfield_LargeHero_ShatteredSpaceTrailer.png?fm=webp&fit=fill&h=870&w=1920

[daring lake]

Its a good question imo. Andreja has a line where she expresses a liking
for the NA artpiece.

[solemn bough]

theres something somewhere about a va'ruun artist who i think made that sculpture

Deran Ma’leen is a renowned artist from Dazra. The most notable series of sculptures that they produced is the series known as the "Coil" in which they attempted to explore the spirit of the Great Serpent, while only Jinan Va’ruun has seen the true visage of the Great Serpent, the sculptures are an endeavor to recreate and imagine that moment. They also made The Spire, which is inspired by the Scaled Citadel.

not sure how accurate this is but yeah

[leaden gale]

neat

[solemn bough]

Reality vs expectations in those pics 😄😄

[acoustic peak]

I don't think they have much of a memory even in their own universe, much less in the next ones. Sarah doesn't seem to recall my continually putting a 40mm in her piehole during my stay in the last universe every time she interrupted me to give me some crappy gift. --- Must have happened several dozen times, I believe I'd remember that if it happened to me.

[rigid canyon]

Spot on. Can confirm

[rigid kiln]

That doesn't look anything like the scaled citadel tbh

[near slate]

sigh

[solemn bough]

it really wasnt that bad

[near slate]

baiting each other does not help anything or anyone.

[solemn bough]

that's the problem. i'm always being genuine, and you guys always think im baiting lol. humility IS a virtue. self-importance is not

but whatever

[inner oxide]

Think with end comments like that might been seen as such

Instead of I don’t think I was baiting but sorry

The virtue stuff more then likely adds to fire

[solemn bough]

its not a matter of opinion, i know what my own intentions are

but anyway lets drop it

lets talk about why the freestar collective is so based and the best faction

[rigid canyon]

It isn't tho...

You do know House Va’ruun exists right?

[solemn bough]

do they?

things look pretty bleak in the shattered space trailer

[inner oxide]

Wasn’t offering a stating of opinion

Was highlighting

And as for dropping I do as please thanks 😁
Except when mods tell me otherwise which you are not

[inner oxide]

Hindu right ?

[rigid canyon]

Mate..

[inner oxide]

Sorry that’s varuna my bad

[near slate]

mods are telling you otherwise

[inner oxide]

🫡

[solemn bough]

neon is my favorite city too, i just wish it were a bit bigger

[obsidian glade]

Every major settlement has a slum , I hope varuunia does not disappoint

Va’ruun slum has to be really decadent

[high copper]

chances are they probably don't have slums

[solemn bough]

yeah i can see them just not having them

[obsidian glade]

Why not? Everyone is equal? I doubt that

[solemn bough]

i dont think we'll actually see a populated va'ruun city either. i think dazra will be largely empty and abandoned

[obsidian glade]

That’s no fun I was hoping to recruit an all Va’ruun crew

[solemn bough]

that can still happen

i doubt we'll get more than a few companions though so idk about a whole crew

[high copper]

maybe some regular crew members like from some other places

[solemn bough]

all im saying is i dont think dazra will be a populated city like new atlantis or akila city with tons of nameless npcs walking around just going about their day

there will be people there, but they might be hiding or forced to occupy a smaller area of the city

like basically whats going on in primm in new vegas if you've ever played that. you get to primm and all the citizens of the town have barricaded themselves in the casino because theres danger outside

[leaden gale]

Ye

[glacial arrow]

That's the problem, yes. Constellation or bust. ||/s||

[rigid canyon]

I'll watch constellation burn 🔥

[glacial arrow]

See, that's why no one likes the House

Bad dog snek, behave!

[solemn bough]

Player character and Andreja betray Constellation by giving the artifacts to House Va'ruun

Oh how wonderous that would be

[faint cave]

The weak are offered to the great serpent

[glacial arrow]

So.... every Va'ruunite under its sway, then, for having such weak wills that they couldn't resist mental domination?

[leaden gale]

Snakes taste like chicken.

[hushed stag]

But they’re not like KFC fried chicken lol

[obsidian glade]

I’ve tried rattlesnake and gator, neither were very good

[jaunty ginkgo]

Akila City has a garden co-op? Goodness that's swell. This between the real estate agent independently looking to prop up affordable housing for people in the Stretch and the Lowhouse effort, is a very welcome depiction of earthly problems, and all these are just the ones in Akila. This is grit right here

[storm wigeon]

Based freestar collective

[glad jacinth]

UC is authoritarian fascist goverment. FC is... Corpo-feudal corrupted collective. Of course they based, they dont started 2 wars over some rock

Watch or read Starship Troopers, or play Helldivers thats UC

[storm wigeon]

True

[storm wigeon]

Can someone remind me how citizenship works in the freestar collective?

How do you become a citizen

[bright ore]

I don't recollect it ever being mentioned. We only know about the UC because of the whole "service guarantees citizenship" thing.

[storm wigeon]

The real estate agent in Akila talks about something like that, but I forget what

He says citizenship isn’t needed for buying property or citizenship isn’t a thing in the FC or something?

[cobalt saffron]

citizenship isn't a thing as such. it kind of is, but it also isn't

[obsidian glade]

Managed democracy is the future. Would you like to know more ?

[glad jacinth]

You dont, you just live there

[dawn pumice]

well, first you need to be the ceo of a major corporation, probably specializing in either small firearms or spaceship construction...

that or as close as possible to a direct descendant of one of the families which founded one of the main settlements.

[obsidian glade]

Your earn citizenship through service in the UC

Or be rich 🤑

[glacial arrow]

UC government is hardly a paragon of virtue, but bribery isn't tolerated, either. A good example is when some rich snob from Neon wants to buy property, gets declined, then tries to buy citizenship and nearly gets arrested.

[solemn bough]

depending on to whom you offer the bribe

The worst part about the UC for me is lying about executing their own war criminal. Shows how deeply corrupt their leadership is.

[glacial arrow]

It's certainly not good, especially since they couldn't even be honest to the folks who found out about it. "He took advantage of our MERCY!" my tail. Sparing him had absolutely nothing to do with mercy, they just wanted to continue using him as a weapon.

Their only regrets were living to see him betray them, and you spilling the beans on them.

[daring lake]

Was. Past tense. The current administration was handed that situation.
And all the signs suggest that they are more progressive and willing
to compromise.

[solemn bough]

Yes, they were handed the situation and continued it. The best chance to be rid of he who shall not be named happened when they were put in positions of power.

[daring lake]

Politics is a strange beast. I kinda got the impression that Abello jumped at
the chance to be rid of him. With the hardliners left with no argument to counter
her decision.

.... other outcomes are possible of course, if "You" decides to do things
differently. But stronger bonds between UC + FC lay the basis for trust,
openess and future peace.

[solemn bough]

Oh definitely. Abello in my opinion is one of the more likeable NPC's in the UC.

[daring lake]

I'm a guy of a certain age. I think she is cute 😉

[leaden gale]

No? The president seems on the up and up but both of her advisers are shady. We have no proof that they didn't do anything other than move vae victis. That we didn't see an execution is, imo, proof that he is still alive.

[daring lake]

Ah ... the conspiracy card 😄

[leaden gale]

Past behavior is the best predictor of current and future behavior.

The story is about conspiracy.

Literally about conspiracy.

[storm wigeon]

Progressive and willing to compromise are negatives. And being handed a crap show is everyone’s bullcrap excuse

[solemn bough]

Sounds like it's time for another crusade 🐍

[daring lake]

Not the same beast though.

[storm wigeon]

Every terrible leader in politics has claimed the previous administrations are responsible for the current crisis

The UC is bureaucracy manifest. Corrupt at it’s core

[daring lake]

Interesting viewpoint.

[solemn bough]

The corruption goes beyond government even. During the CF questline we see a certain scheme going on at Galbank.

[daring lake]

Everyone's trying to make a buck 🙂

[solemn bough]

True that

[daring lake]

Even me ...

[storm wigeon]

I thought that one tracker who only takes people in alive was hilarious. I admire his heart, but some people have to go

I wish there was a dialog option of “And how do you feel when you bring in a murderer alive, then he murders again once let out. Do you still feel like you’re making the right choice, now that blood is on your hands?”

I experienced something similar IRL and felt horrible when it happened again. Felt like I had a duty and responsibility to have removed that possibility, but didn’t, if you get my meaning

[solemn bough]

no more half measures waltuh

[storm wigeon]

Pretty much

Especially if you’re in the business of stopping criminals

[glacial arrow]

It's called 'repeat business'

[storm wigeon]

LOL I guess so

[glacial arrow]

Hey, if they were willing to shell out for a capture and were stupid enough to let him get free, you oughta be able to really squeeze for creds when they want him back.

Bonus points if you were the one to help him escape to begin with.

[storm wigeon]

It’s just good business I guess

[glacial arrow]

Right up til your good ol' Uncle Ben gets shot

[fallen kiln]

You know what they say: "With great power comes great irresponsibility".

[faint cave]

What happens to Vasco if you have him on your ship when you go to the Unity?

[leaden gale]

https://c.tenor.com/Sn_LdmfcSoAAAAAM/batman-yeah.gif

[solemn bough]

he becomes a transformer

[faint cave]

More than meets the eye

[scenic loom]

He becomes StarVascoBorn

[obsidian glade]

I miss the bug where Vasco used to go on nose rides on top of my spaceship

[solemn bough]

what about the one where he was halfway in the floor

[keen acorn]

Vasco used to get stuck under my Bay

[upper drum]

Time for the greatest Lore hole. Lin tells a miner at the start that his cutter isn't a sledgehammer. Yet.. they don't exist in the game world. Matter of fact, there aren't any two handed tools. No axes, sledges etc.

I understand that there are new innovations that could make these tools obsolete, but it just seems odd that such tools would go entirely the way of the dinosaur.

[astral walrus]

The Rescue axe?

[upper drum]

Is one handed.

The rescue axe is a hatchet, let's stop kidding ourselves.

[glacial arrow]

Like I keep bloody saying, Bethesda has good concepts but never manages to follow through.

There's an entire Unarmed skill tree, entirely useless due to Bethesda not supporting it properly.

There's melee skills, but no two-handed melee weapons (or unarmed ones, for that matter).

It really is exceedingly frustrating to see Bethesda so consistently FAIL MISERABLY as if they're either wildly incompetent or just don't care. I don't know which would be worse, save some unholy combo of both.

Then there's the Starborn ||powers||, the damage-dealing ones being complete and utter garbage even on easy settings at their purpose of doing damage.

The most use any of my damage spells have seen so far....? Is blasting down Emergency Door locks.

Although Supernova is clutch for at least drawing agro from underground bugs on ||Freya|| that refuse to come out.

Oh, and don't even get me started on the temples. They're bigger than your ship, impossible to miss if you already know one's in the area. Land at them, for Unity's sake!

[upper drum]

I wasn't trying to trigger an explosion with this lol.
I just decided to make a new character and thought I'd maybe for once self insert a bit but right at the start I was reminded certain melee weapons don't exist. (I do a lot of work with my axe.) Lin mentioning the Sledge immediately reminded me two handed options aren't a thing.

Yeah it is kinda strange. The fact skills are in place but the extension of them isn't entirely present. I can understand lack of unarmed weapons, sure, but melee got hit hard. I know cutters seem to be easy to get, but you'd think the tried and true simple man's tools would still exist and see use in the frontier.

[glacial arrow]

Unarmed is ....viable... if you add a mod to scale the damage off your level

Not the way to go on all enemy types, but playable without weapons at all

But otherwise it's only good for knocking down an enemy and/or stunning them

[upper drum]

The issue isn't melee being viable or not. It's the absence of extension for it. We get what, 5 melee weapons(?) and all are one handed.

(We got 9)

[glacial arrow]

It's another of Bethesda's whole 'leave it to modders'

"Here's some skills. They won't be useful without a modder, enjoy."

I can't put into words here just how infuriating that half-ed attitude is.

[upper drum]

None are two handed though. The rescue axe, while it certainly can perform the function of a multiuse quick pinch utility tool. Isn't gonna give the leverage for "rescuing". If I had to take the starfield rescue axe into a burning home to Breach with.. well it wouldn't be a good time. Lol.

[upper drum]

Again, I'm not trying to trigger any outbursts or attacks at the development team lol.

[glacial arrow]

It's not a development team thing, unfortunately.

The devs are great at what they do, we see this through the results they're allowed to produce. The problem is corpo decisions keeping them from doing a proper job of it.

Bethesda gives juuust enough for the game to be a shadow of what it could be, incomplete and lacking full functionality, putting all the rest of it on modders who they don't have to pay or meet deadlines on.

[faint cave]

Is it possible for some places on Earth to survive by going underground like Cydonia or building shielded structures? The Constant was built before the grav drive, so they already have the technology to make something like that, and probably for a fraction of the cost considering it doesn't need to take off and fly.

[glacial arrow]

Even the Constant isn't 100% self-sustaining indefinitely.

It'd be the Fallout 1 issue all over again, but infinitely worse since outside the vault is DEATH

[faint cave]

It doesn't need to be indefinite, just enough for supplies from Jemison to get back.

[silk lotus]

I'd argue create vacuum is good. I usually use void form and then create vacuum to deal a dot aoe before engaging.

[glacial arrow]

Vacuum is only usable because it's %-based.

Rather than fixed damage, the damage is based on enemy's max HP.

[silk lotus]

Pretty sure solar flare is too btw

[glacial arrow]

Grav Well or whatever is, too

[silk lotus]

I just love and hate how it is basically mass effect 3s singularity.

Gravity well.

[astral walrus]

Except for biotic detonations

[solemn bough]

yeah create vacuum is great, its solar flare and particle beam that suck

[daring lake]

If loss of atmosphere was the only issue then it would have been. But the
massive upheaval to the planet's mantle caused by the core slowing down
would cause the sort of damage we witness at the NASA launch tower.
Anyone who tried to "dig in" to survive would likely have perished.

[glacial arrow]

On top of that, the loss of atmo means no more shield against space debris, meaning the planet will swiftly become as pockmarked as the Moon.

[leaden gale]

I live to use Spider Sense, air bubble, and bullet time.

[sharp rivet]

Suppose a Starborn were to get pregnant, would the hypothetical child inherit special abilities?

[leaden gale]

if the starborn are the product of ||the crucible project, as i believe them to be, then as far as we know they can't get pregnant. but starborn the expansion might clarify this topic.||

[tall shuttle]

The lore channel discussing starborn pregnancy is a clear indication it’s been way too long between updates.

[leaden gale]

the game itself indirectly addresses the topic, i guess.

[rigid kiln]

I'll tell you when I get anasko's heir

[leaden gale]

https://tenor.com/view/blinking-eyes-white-guy-blinking-meme-what-huh-gif-26334323

[bright ore]

It would be a lot easier to go underground than create a generation ship, or go underground on somewhere like Mars or Titan. This is purely a narrative choice from the game writers.

[leaden gale]

The loss of the planet's atmosphere is massive. Though I'm not a scientist. I don't know how much earth you would need to shield you from the radiation.

[tall shuttle]

I kinda wish grav drive tech swung a big ol rock slightly off course towards earth rather than kill the magnetosphere.

Plots near identical but earth being FUBAR would be dead simple to understand.

[faint cave]

What if they build warehouse-sized Nova Galactic habs as shelters?

[bright ore]

It shouldn't be that much. There was a study that estimated that about 1 m of Martian regolith could reduce radiation exposure by about half. So just going down ten meters or so would likely be sufficient.

[solemn bough]

can you explain this one again

the crucible and starborn connection

[analog junco]

What is the crucible project?

[solemn bough]

the thing with the clones

[analog junco]

Ah, I see

[manic bone]

Might be a weird question but do you guys know if wood would still remain without a magnetosphere / atmosphere? Not like alive, but like dead wood, logs etc. particularly on Earth

[solemn bough]

if all the stone and brick and concrete is gone then the wood probably went too lol

[manic bone]

I mean in terms of realism I guess? Because if we're going by starfield logic, what you said doesnt make sense either since the landmarks still exist with all of that, and glass and metal

Basically just wanted to use some wooden stuff on earth for a mod but dont want it to seem too silly

[solemn bough]

yeah i dont think it makes much sense. there's air drag in space too, so realism/believability clearly wasn't on the priority list

i think you can find trees on other worlds with no atmosphere though so if you're just wondering if you can find trees on earth in-game then maybe

[manic bone]

pretty much just wood, not trees haha, like wooden fences, telephone poles etc

[leaden gale]

Mars has an atmosphere, though. Earth doesn't.

[leaden gale]

1. People are clones of other people.
2. They are all aware that they aren't literally that person.
3. Most have the memories of those people.
4. They come preprogrammed with skills of those people, or skills that they have never once performed in their (the clone's) lives.
5. The robot system has lost the thread, doesn't know why they're doing the project. Just continuing it obliquely. Will continue it obliquely until one of the three factions takes control.
6. Two of the three factions want to stay on Crucible until the program is complete, or until they achieve self realization as people.
7. The Pragmatists are less interested in the official program than they are being actual people. The President states, for example, they have been trying to reproduce but can't. He wants to use Crucible to fix that.

I just woke up, i'm sure there's stuff I'm spacing.

Reminder: Not one single Starborn is the original person that entered the Unity. That person died when they entered.

[solemn bough]

interesting. but starborn are hardly even human. they seem like immaterial beings. thats a lot different than a flesh and blood clone

[leaden gale]

Again, the idea is that the Crucible project progresses into the far future.

[solemn bough]

would that make human beings the creators of the unity then?

[leaden gale]

I don't know that the Crucible created the Unity. If they did, then it would either be the robots/AI, or the clones. The human creators of the Crucible Project are all long dead by the time you find the planet.

The Unity might just always have existed, and the Crucible project eventually found it.

[solemn bough]

i meant human beings in general, not the same individuals as worked on the crucible

[leaden gale]

Well it's important to note that I don't consider the clones human because they themselves don't.

[solemn bough]

but if the crucible is the precursor to starborn, wouldnt that mean the creators utilized human-derived tech to build the system that puts people through the unity?

[leaden gale]

They're something more or less, depending on if you're a glass is half full kind of guy.

[solemn bough]

are they not objectively biological humans?

[leaden gale]

they can't reproduce.

[solemn bough]

neither can many humans

[leaden gale]

Clarence.

Not one single Crucible clone is capable of reproduction.

You know what Crucible clones can do?
Fly space ships without having ever seen one.
Humans can't do that.

[solemn bough]

if they have memories of having flown ships, can you really say they've never seen one?

i dont wanna get bogged down in a philisophical discussion about what does and does not constitute a person though ive done enough of that in my life

[leaden gale]

They don't have memories of having flown ships.
Speak to Amelia.

[solemn bough]

i havent done the quest but you just said most of the clones have memories of their other selves. its also possible she has the memories but just cant recall them

but anyway what im asking is if the technology that creates starborn is derived from the crucible project, doesnt that suggest that its human beings who created the starborn too?

[leaden gale]

No. Amelia Earhart was a real person. She has Amelia's memories. She also knows how to fly a space ship without having ever seen one. She tells you this. If you have not done Crucible, stop being a contrarian.

[solemn bough]

okay, i wasnt really interested in that part of the conversation anyway. just wanted you to answer my question

[leaden gale]

Inasmuch as humans created the crucible project. Obviously, human hands do not forge the Starborn project unless you consider the clones human.

All of the human creators of the Crucible project are dead.

[solemn bough]

wait, how? i'm not asking if the clones created the starborn project, i'm asking if you think other human scientists in the future created the starborn or the starborn project or whatever you want to say

if humans created the crucible project, and the creation of the starborn is a continuation of the crucible project, wouldnt that suggest that the creators of the starborn were humans as well? NOT the clones or the same scientists that created the crucible project, but OTHER scientists in the future

also if we consider that to be true i would find it interesting because it would go hand in hand with the mark 1 suit being the mark 1 because its the original starborn suit

[daring lake]

I'm just going to say, flat out, that there is no evidence that Starborn and
Crucible are connected. In fact, there is plenty of evidence that they are
not.

[leaden gale]

No, it wouldn't. You're using the transitive property fallacy. The clones or the robots are the most likely creators of the Starborn project.

[hearty flare]

I'm pretty sure that Amelia mentions that she received actual flight training, not that she can innately fly a starship

[leaden gale]

Plenty of evidence? Feel free to list it. ... sip ☕

[leaden gale]

No she definitively states she knows how to fly a starship despite having never set foot in one. Go talk to her and screenshot the conversation.

[daring lake]

If you have done Crucible it is there for you to see 🙂

[leaden gale]

So you have no evidence. ... sip☕

[solemn bough]

The clones or the robots are the most likely creators of the Starborn project.

why do you think that?

[solemn bough]

its funny because both of you refuse to provide evidence for claims when asked

[leaden gale]

Because it's possible that humans eventually discover and help out, but that doesn't have evidence of being true. We have evidence that the robots and or clones will continue the project regardless, even if Genghis wins

[daring lake]

Me? ... Crucible is the evidence.
Its not a case of "I'm right and you are wrong"
I would ask you to re-evaluate your thoughts on the matter though.
Dealing with the scenario from a "say what you see" viewpoint may
be insightful.

[leaden gale]

You're a stone cold liar. I have literally done nothing but provide evidence.

[solemn bough]

We have evidence that the robots and or clones will continue the project regardless

but the clones cant reproduce, so how could they continue the work for long enough by themselves?

[solemn bough]

you dont remember that whole thing with the great serpent quote?

[leaden gale]

You told me "do crucible it proves you're wrong." But that isn't true. So I asked you for what crucible says that proves it wrong and you won't respond because you have no evidence. ... sip ☕

[leaden gale]

Even you admitted the great serpent spoke to jinan. Lmfao.

[daring lake]

Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm not arguing with you.

[leaden gale]

Evidence for the contrarians. ... sip ☕

[solemn bough]

no one disputed that lol. you gave a specific quote with massive lore implications. thats what i wanted proof of, because of the lore implications

lets not rehash that though

[hearty flare]

I just did. There's a specific line that the player character can say to Amelia that goes, "I don't know if I can trust someone who was trained by a computer to be my co-pilot..." that does not sound to me like she has "innate" skills at piloting. She also says that the facility "taught us things that people we were cloned from might've known. For me that meant anything and everything to do with modern starships." Again, I don't read that as her saying that this knowledge was "programmed" into her.

[solemn bough]

@leaden gale

[leaden gale]

The great serpent tells jinan that he'll kill everyone that isn't promised when he returns to the world that he created. That's in game. I've posted the sources before. Would do so again but am at work currently.

[leaden gale]

Robots clone them when they die.

They have all died plenty of times. Hotel lad is scared of being outed as a serial killers clone because the other clones will kill him every time he respawns.

Idr his name.

[solemn bough]

you told me that the great serpent said "you are of my people, jinaan va'ruun" and the reason you brought that up was because that specific sentence implied that the great serpent was a starborn. so your assertion would only work if that specific quote existed. but we don't have a quote of that conversation, we just have an idea of what was said and it wasnt that

[leaden gale]

Colorful speech, dude. jinan and the worshipers are the serpent's chosen. You're being fallacious.

[solemn bough]

no one ever disputed that

we all know about the shrouding and that the va'ruun are the chosen people of the great serpent. i have never not acknowledged either of those things

what you were claiming was that the great serpent must be a starborn because jinaan va'ruun must also be a starborn and the great serpent said "you are of my people" to him, meaning they're both starborn.

that's what you were claiming

i asked you why you thought the great serpent is a starborn, and you told me "because he said 'you are of my people, jinan va'ruun'"

[leaden gale]

When I get home I'm going to speak to Amelia, take screenshots, and post them in this channel.

[slate valley]

This idea that Crucible => Starborn is just silly. The Unity, Temples & Artifacts are millions of years old. Which means there have been Starborn just as long. Not all of them were originally human. Until the artifact was discovered on Mars.
Crucible was created long after that event because the 2 M class ships that carried the scientific team that created crucible had grav drives.
Crucible is just HALF the original program, because the scientists disagreed on the viability of the planet. 1 half landed their ship, dismantled it and used the components to create the cloning facility that we see in a very badly damaged state.
The other ship left in search of the so called perfect world and never found it. They ran out of fuel and were left stranded in space where they eventually all starved to death. When we do that quest we find the ship, read the slates and terminals.
All this took place in the early years after the UC had already been founded. Possibly after the Narion war (but can't recall dates on the slates right now, will need to redo the quest).
There is 100% ZERO link between Crucible and Starborn.

[solemn bough]

not all of the starborn were originally human?

[slate valley]

Extremely high probability due to the age of the structures mentioned. The creators of the temples would have been the first Starborn. Us modern humans are babies in this universe (multiverse) being a mere 300k odd years old in our current form.

[solemn bough]

i dont know if the creators necessarily became starborn. if they did, where are they now? wouldnt they be immortal in some sense?

[slate valley]

No. Why would they. We know human starborn are not immortal. The Pilgrim is a human Starborn who chose to stop jumping through the Unity and subsequently grew old and died.

[solemn bough]

wouldnt there be some that chose not to do that?

[slate valley]

Don't forget the original armillary was blown up (hence the artifacts). Maybe they did it themselves, maybe deliberately, maybe by accident. I stand by my original theory that some of them were trapped when the original armillary was destroyed and it was/is them who spoke to Jinan and that nasa dude whose name I can never remember (and I have only just been back to nasa yesterday - joys of growing old).

[solemn bough]

where is the armillary being destroyed mentioned

[slate valley]

Where did the artifacts come from?

[solemn bough]

its been a while since i played the main quest

[slate valley]

How were they scattered so far and wide?

[solemn bough]

its a good hypothesis

could that also just be what happens when the armillary is actually used though?

[slate valley]

Could be, but then that would be such a rstriction and hinderance for the creators. My theory is the armilary remains intact on your ship after you go through. The unity does tell you others will find their way through later. Finding a derelect ship that is fully operational would be quite the jump scare for the finder LOL, but if Vasco is aboard he simply flies the ship back to NA and a Constellation member dismantles the armillary, ready to be assembled when one of them decides to follow. There are plenty of scenarios possible.
But I doubt the artifacts explosively disassemble when you step through (killing vasco).

[leaden gale]

We time travel.
Starborn time travel.
Do you believe clones cannot enter the unity?

I got bad news for you, because every ng+ you're playing a clone. Your character dies when they enter the unity.

[slate valley]

Different argument dude.

Unity, Temples, Starborn PRE_DATE Crucible. How can the Crucible clones go on to create the unity, temples, artifacts and starborn. Thats just silly.

[leaden gale]

Why do you believe that the crucible clones cannot enter the unity in the far future and travel to the distant past?

We time travel. We have no control over that time travel. But whoever created the Starborn process did have control over it.

[slate valley]

Are you sure about that? We exist in every universe already, yet only encounter ourselves in ONE of the alternate constellations. We merge with our self in the next universe, except for that one.

But, I am not going to get into a useless circular argument. You will not change your mind regardless of evidence, and I am equally firm in my theory.

[solemn bough]

why would you not merge only in that particular instance?

[slate valley]

Something the devs need to explain to us. Where is the dusty who disapeared according to Vasco?

[leaden gale]

We don't exist in every universe. A version of us does. And we are the first version of us to enter the unity.

[solemn bough]

there are a lot of constants we encounter in each universe, so i figure it could be the PC conveniently dying in an accident

[slate valley]

Vasco doesn't say that - Vasco is literal in every sense. He says we disapeared.

[solemn bough]

disappeared meaning what then?

[slate valley]

POOF there in the pilot seat one minute, gone the next. Probably around the same time we pop into space above Vectera.

[solemn bough]

id have to look at the exact quote by vasco before i could buy that

[leaden gale]

He says we're missing. And we could not enter the unity because constellation still has Armillary pieces.

[slate valley]

AFTER we go through unity. Then go to constellation we find Sarah et al and Vasco already there. Conversation ensues.

It's OUR gameplay LOOP.

[leaden gale]

No dude because they don't know you. And you even meet yourself. Jesus wept.

[upper drum]

Doesn't Vasco say that the Argos Miner was "Lost"? This is typically used as another term for "died". Not that we disappeared. Lol

We are the first known hiccup in regards to our character going through the Unity. We always die early or simply fail later, but something different happens this time. We can consider ourselves "The Prime Starborn" in terms of our character. This causes a ripple where more of us manage to succeed or we were just simply the first in the infinite as far as I understand. We don't always die between Vectera and Atlantis. For example, not just the alternative NG+ where we meet ourselves, but the final temple shows us a dying us, were we were the one who died, in Vlad's arms instead of whoever would die in our playthrough. Keep in mind, these visions aren't just hallucinations, we are stepping into alternative universe for brief moments 🤷‍♂️
Yet, we can encounter a ||NG 10+ Evil Hunter variant of us even as early as the first NG+ we experience. Though, let's not be silly. We as players know this is simply due to game mechanics, and not some tripped out lore hole.||

[leaden gale]

Yes. The game has npcs comment that we are the first us to become Starborn. And Unity tells you that when you die, you're like a sun going supernova, and its bits trace across the cosmos with the implication being you don't just make one starborn when you enter. you make many.

[upper drum]

I still hold to the this interpretation- Because otherwise it makes 0 sense for you to carry over skill progress, intimate knowledge of your previous experiences (Via all the Starborn Dialog options) and why - ||Evil you has experiences you as a player may not have on your character.|| We play the original first us, our body left behind and our soul, our consciousness is saved into the Unity. The unity doesn't even give us a real true body. It's an imitation to allow us to blend in. Hence why Starborn, us included turn to space dust upon death, instead of a corpse. We are the same consciousness passing between universes, just doing so in a new constructed form each time. If you moved your mind into another body, would you consider yourself a clone?

(Though I suppose one could consider their new form a clone of the old one. 🤔)

(At that point it feels like semantics. Because generally speaking when someone thinks clone, they think copy of an original in all it's entirety. For example, Jango Fett is the original, Troopers are his clones. If he got old and moved his consciousness into a new body, we'd still consider him Jango, the original. Not a clone.)

[keen acorn]

Another thing is. In The NG+ when you meet your self. You can touch each other. No Boom. So you look alike but something is different - so technically we can think of each other as brother or sister but the new one knows everything about the other.

[fallen kiln]

Well, you say that, but I think it's possible, only not the way it's usually presented.

I could see the Crucible as an experiment founded by a Starborn to better understand the psychological effects on being repeatedly reborn into a closed environment. It would also explain the tech used in the Crucible which is remarkable by contemporary Settled Systems standards, but must have been unheard of back when the Crucible was founded.

[fallen kiln]

The Crucible clones don't disintegrate into Stardust when they die. Starborn are something else.

[leaden gale]

Crucible clones retain memories of the deceased.

[leaden gale]

They don't turn into stardust yet.

[fallen kiln]

So the process is different. Clones are replicated from DNA. Starborn enter some sort of singularity and get propagated to other parallel realities. It's not the same thing.

[leaden gale]

You must have missed where I said that it's my belief that the Starborn are the end result of the Crucible project in the far future. This is a game about time travel.

In the current time they share a great deal in common with Starborn. Too much to ignore.

[daring lake]

They share nothing with Starborn.

[leaden gale]

... sip ☕

[daring lake]

Yeah, also .... dogs have 4 legs, therefore all four legged creatures are dogs.
Which pretty much sums up your reasoning.
Crucible clones are the result of a genetic engineering project.
Starborn are not.
Crucible clones have the memories and personalities programmed into them.
Starborn do not.

[leaden gale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZkCPo7tC0

Starborn do have memories and personalities programmed into them. Of the person who died when they entered the Unity.

[daring lake]

No strawman from me I'm afraid.
I am Starborn and I do not die when I enter the Unity.
Transformed and re-built maybe. But my personality and memory
are the same as when I began the process.

[fallen kiln]

You must have missed the bit where the only part I took issue with was the over-broad assertion that Starborn are clones.

[leaden gale]

Unity tells you that you're like a sun going supernova when you point out that it sounds a lot like you're going to die. What happens to a sun when it goes supernova?

https://youtu.be/_rlCi-aHFnE?t=228
"Much like the death of a star creates new kinds of matter, so will a part of your being become infused with the Unity itself."

[fallen kiln]

Actually, I think you kind of do. That's made pretty clear by Unity Me, I thought. The instance of yourself in the next universe is a continuation of your consciousness, but your biological self died in your original universe.

I think it's pretty much the same deal as with Dagoth Ur in Morrowind. He died in the First Era but the Heart kept recreating him, but as some sort of projection rather than as flesh and blood. I think that's how it is with Unity and Starborn

[leaden gale]

The Crucible ALSO mirrors this conundrum. What makes you, you? Your genetics? Your memory? Your soul?

[daring lake]

Nah. Unity "You" is evasive and cryptic. And that is because the answer
is more involved imo.

[leaden gale]

No he isn't. I just posted the proof. ... sip ☕

[fallen kiln]

Yeah, I mean Bethesda always like to leave room for interpretation on these things. Still, it's clear you don't have your original biology in the new universe. Or if you do, you're the only Starborn that does. Most people don't disintegrate into sparkles when they die. So that does raise the issue of what happened to your biological body after you stopped inhabiting it. "Death" seems a reasonable outcome, especially in the light of Unity Me's comments

[leaden gale]

Everyone who scans you can't, because you are radiating weird star energy.

[daring lake]

Yeah, transformed and re-built is how I mentioned it.

[leaden gale]

Which frustrates me. I keep my shield above 90% in the UC entrance exam every time. In my first universe, before I was starborn, what's his face was like "Woooooah your heart beat didn't elevate at all!!" and now he never comments on it because "i can't scan you homie"

[fallen kiln]

Also, you get more than one Starborn body. If you die in one universe, you still get created in others. At least if the Hunter and Emissaries are anything to go by. You can also exist in a universe more than once...

[leaden gale]

Yes. Multiples of you are made. My first NG+ I met my evil doppler. He was a jerk.

[fallen kiln]

Or "died and reborn". It's a fine distinction, and probably not worth debating.

[leaden gale]

You say "IOt sounds like I'm gonna die" and Unity responds, "Yeah but like when a star dies, your stuff is going to make new matter."

[tall shuttle]

Isn’t there something along the lines of “so this is what it feels like” if you kill the hunter? So maybe not reborn if you die as a starborn.

[leaden gale]

So with Vimes we have a true blue Amanirenas.

[fallen kiln]

Well, he's never been killed in combat before. He's lost fights but never fatally.

[leaden gale]

Also! important note: Crucible is literally called "Operation: Starseed"

https://imgur.com/a/aIoapui

I promised an album of Amelia admitting she knew how to fly a ship without having ever been in one. Here it is. She doesn't know how she knows how to fly, just that she does.

It may take a bit to authenticate. Imgur do be like that sometimes.

[glad jacinth]

404 not found

[leaden gale]

goit another site to upload screenshots?

oh. nexus. one second.

Hmm. How do you do albums?

https://imgur.com/a/8pBmaq6

Nevermind. Figured it out. Gotta upload one screenshot at a time.

[fallen kiln]

Just to be precise, according to Va'ruun scriptures, the Great Serpent tells Jinan etc etc etc. We know the Va'ruun believe this. The actual meeting between Serpent and Jinan in most definitely not in-game.

[solemn bough]

404

[obsidian glade]

Ok so if the great serpent said he’d kill all non-believers when he returned , why did they launch a war of aggression? Why not just sit tight ? I think if I can rid the galaxy if Va’ruun in SS I just might.

[solemn bough]

maybe they thought they were supposed to do the shrouding themselves

[leaden gale]

religious zealots gonna deus vult

[thin sandal]

man imagine if Christians decided theyd do the rapture ToT
obviously theyre not exactly wqual but still

[solemn bough]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-10-2016/e0sxv6.gif

[thin sandal]

pleaseeeeee ToT

[glad jacinth]

What?

[solemn bough]

so i did (most of) the mission, from what i can gather the knowledge is somehow beamed into the brains of the clone before they wake up. so they arent "taught" these things in a traditional sense but they dont inherently possess it either. amelia says she woke up with the knowledge of how to fly a ship. and she wouldnt know that just by nature of being amelia earhart since she flew planes and not spacecraft. is that consistent with your interpretation?

[silk lotus]

I thought she learned by machines actually teaching her?

[hearty flare]

I still strongly believe she had actual training, like simulators or something. I don't think it was "programmed" into her or something. The player character can say to her "I don't know if I can trust someone who was trained by a computer to be my co-pilot..." That is not the language the writers would have used if she "just knew" how to fly a ship

[silk lotus]

Yeah that's what I think aswell.

[leaden gale]

You've been in crucible. Where are the flight training computers?

[hearty flare]

I dunno, I can play MSFS at my desk with an Xbox controller and I've actually flown a Cessna with no training (a Certified Flight Instructor was with me) and the MSFS helped immensely. I didn't require a full-motion simulator to be able to control a plane during take-off and flight

[leaden gale]

And yet the game has them already. The UC has them. Why didn't they use them? Why didn't they have any normal computers for flight simulation like you suggest?

[hearty flare]

They have terminals all over the place. Just because the PC doesn't interact with flight simulator software doesn't mean it isn't on one of those systems. Also, teh Vanguard is training dozens, if not hundreds, of pilots to join the program. Full simulators make sense. It probably isn't worth it to Crucible to establish a full simulator setup for a single pilot clone.

[leaden gale]

The clones have the knowledge of their forebears. How was amiraneras taught the smells of her homeland?

[hearty flare]

Amanerinas is clearly delusional

She thinks she can smell her homeland

The PC even has the option to call her on that nonsense

[leaden gale]

Genghis remembers his forebears stuff, too. He's hyper aware that he isn't Genghis.

[hearty flare]

Also, nowhere else in the settled systems do we experience anything remotely akin to "programming" people with innate knowledge. Crucible would have to be MASSIVELY more advanced than anywhere else in the galaxy to be able to program memories into people. Cloning is clearly established elsewhere (as Hadrian shows), but for a century+ old exeriment to have that technology and nobody else know about it feels extremely implausible

[leaden gale]

Dude. No where else in the galaxy can they perform exact cloning crucible IS massively more advanced.

[hearty flare]

I'd argue that changing the gender of a clone is more advanced than making an exact copy

[analog junco]

But how did they get memories from dead non-brain tissue?

[hearty flare]

Though I will admit that, as Jurassic Park taught us, all clones are inherently female.

[leaden gale]

If the UC wanted an exact clone of VV, and could make it, they would. Hadrian states cloning tech isn't that exact.

[obsidian glade]

Memories can be created and downloaded into clone brains

[leaden gale]

No idea!

How do your starborn clones have your exact memories?

[analog junco]

That was because of the species of frog DNA that they used

[hearty flare]

No, the species of frog DNA allows for the gender switching that we see later on in the movie. Dr. Wu states very clearly that all embreyos are inherently female and that to create a male requires a specific hormonal reaction to occur and that the scientists "simply deny them that" during the cloning process.

[analog junco]

Oh yeah, I haven't seen it in several years lol thanks

[hearty flare]

Jurassic Park is one of my Top 5 most-watched movies, so I know basically the entire script by heart, haha

[analog junco]

When I was 5-6 I would watch it all the time on VHS, probably 2-3 times a month. I have Jurassic Park dreams now every so often.

My dreams include - going to work with no pants/shoes, going to swim practice and forgetting how to swim/get in the pool and dinosaurs roaming my states and occaisonally ripping up a city

[hearty flare]

But back to arguing with Mando, I just don't see any actual evidence that the facility can transfer memories or make new ones up (in the case of Amelia) and implant them into clones' brains. Your interactions with Amanerinas make it pretty clear that she "feels" like she knew her ancestor, not that she actually lived that individual's experience.

[leaden gale]

But there's absolutely no actual evidence that they're normally trained. You can't say I have no evidence and then purport that your argument doesn't require it.

The lack of places to train each of the clones in their exacting and strange specifications is actually evidence for my argument.

[hearty flare]

I'm saying that we don't know. But I think it's more plausible that there's a computer somewhere in the facility that Amelia practiced flying spaceships than it is that the project scientists 100+ years in the past figured out how to not only modify memories, but generate new ones

[leaden gale]

How old is the UC?

[hearty flare]

like 150+ years old, I believe

170ish

[leaden gale]

Well the scientists were trying to escape the UC. Hadrian states exact cloning is not a technology the UC has.

So crucible has tech that is beyond the UC already.

How do you force clones like Genghis to sit through clone training if they are being trained?

[hearty flare]

What is Genghis trained on specifically?

[leaden gale]

Why is Genghis always the same across all of his clones?

[grave ferry]

What if they aren’t actually clones and are merely led to believe they’re clones so they can become great leaders or something? Apologies if stupid

[leaden gale]

How to fly a starship for one.

[leaden gale]

It's not stupid but if they weren't clones the other clones would've picked up on one looking different when replaced.

[hearty flare]

You only encounter him in the spaceship after you free him, he never states anywhere that he actually knows how to fly. For all we know he's co-opted a pilot to fly for him. Your interactions with Huan during the Crimson Fleet quest make it clear that you can talk to someone on a ship who isn't the pilot

[leaden gale]

I gotta get ready for work.

He says he killed the folks who owned the ship.

How first ship is a lil muv

[hearty flare]

Yeah, I mean it's pretty clear that we're not going to convince each other to change our positions. But I suppose that is the fun of this game is that there is so much left unsaid that leaves room for discussions like this.

Since you said you need to head to work, I just want to say that I appreciate the ability to have a civil debate on the internet. Those don't happen every day.

[solemn bough]

when you first talk to her she says she woke up with the knowledge

[solemn bough]

mongol stuff he says. thats why hes able to hunt meat for the others

[hearty flare]

Oh jeez, I stand 100% corrected. Just found a YouTube video with the initial interaction (I had been basing most of my information on the follow-up conversations you can have with her) and she does say she woke up with that information. https://youtu.be/_soog7cxCiU?si=-6k6fvO28xgM1JWR&t=69

@leaden gale, apologies for wasting your time on this debate. You were right.

I will say that I'm still not convinced of your theory about Crucible being tied to the Starborn, but I definitely see now that the facility has the capability to implant knowledge into clones.

[analog junco]

So, is someone saying that the Starborn are all clones and that there isn't actually another Universe you go to? I haven't read the whole discussion.

[leaden gale]

It's cool homie, I forgot she said she woke up with it too.

[leaden gale]

No. I'm saying starborn are clones that are created in different universes when you enter the unity.

[analog junco]

I'm sure the tech works somehow, we might have to wait for further DLC/story

[silk lotus]

And remember those green pods with people in them from the shattered space trailer? Could the va'ruun also have cloning technology?

[solemn bough]

Mwahahaha

[hearty flare]

Would explain how they keep having people to sacrifice to my ship as I regularly rampage through the Serpentis system

[leaden gale]

Possibly but I am not sure it's for cloning. I think it's for mental induction. Losing yourself and becoming morenof them, as the trailer states.

[analog junco]

I wonder what the "more of them means"

[solemn bough]

someone admitting they were wrong when presented with contradictory evidence. why cant we all do this?

[silk lotus]

Possible. What if they kidnap people and send a sleeper agent clone back in their stead?

[hearty flare]

Proof for sure that I have no future in American politics

[solemn bough]

LOL well its funny you say that considering the democratic VP candidate who admitted to wrongdoing in terms of the riots that occurred under his administration. but thats a topic for another server

It's just really hard to say what those pods are and who those people in the pods are.

[solemn bough]

i think thats just the population of dazra who had to be put into hibernation to whether the current crisis

[solemn bough]

Holy crap I can't believe I never thought of that. Hmm...

or its a bunch of jinan clones lol

i mean the va'ruun seem to have better tech than the rest of humanity, at least in terms of weaponry

[silk lotus]

I'm leaning with either cloning or indoctrination. Imagine the serpents embrace trail is actually the result of the va'ruun kidnapping people and messing with their minds, or even cloning them with sleeper agent clones who dong even know they are clones or indoctrinated. Remember va'ruun do often spawn with em weapons.

Buts that's all just a theory, A GAME THEORY!

[solemn bough]

Ehh that's a bit too far fetched in my opinion

But in two weeks we'll most likely get the final trailer

[silk lotus]

Yeah probably but I just wanna join the convo and talk to people.

[solemn bough]

It's a really interesting theory though. The cloning part is possible but I lean towards not being the case.

[silk lotus]

I just wonder if va'ruun using em weapons is just a oversight or if there is a lore reason for it.

[solemn bough]

They use particle beams, not em.

[leaden gale]

It's intentional. Starborn have circles for days in their armor and powers. Varuun mimic it. Even their guns scorch marks.

It's part of why I think the serpent is a starborn.

[solemn bough]

either there's a lore reason or arboron were originally their thing before being changed

[solemn bough]

what does that have to do with arboron

[solemn bough]

they're associated with arboron weapons too

the embassy is full of them for one thing

[leaden gale]

I don't recognize the name.

[silk lotus]

The gun manufacturers who is owned by ryujin and makes the novastrike, novalight, and novablast weapons? Have a shop in ryujin tower aswell.

[leaden gale]

Do they make the same scorch marks as varuun weapons?

[silk lotus]

n0 idea.

[solemn bough]

no

i think you got confused about the topic of the conversation mando

Particle beam weapons do ballistic and energy damage

Stock Arboron weapons are only made to stun

[solemn bough]

thank you zahir

[subtle rivet]

So, Doom is canon to Starfield, now

[solemn bough]

as canon as the space core is to skyrim

[keen spear]

Yea this isn't an official bethesda thing lol it's a creation

but you know what if you want to believe that doom is canon you can absolutely choose that life

[glossy iron]

Thicc andreja is cannon now

Also just wanna say I really appreciated that whole conversation about cloning and the crucible.
I am going to consider now the possibility that starborn are in fact clones.
I have already considered that the starborn you speak to are from the future, basically terminator stuff, but you’re actually the very first one.

[leaden gale]

I mean it's hard canon they're clones. Unity straight up tells you that you're going to die and the bits that don't blow up will be used to create them.

What isn't hard canon is that they're the results of Crucible in the far flung future. I just think that of all evidence thus far, it's the most likely source.

[keen spear]

whomst to say hell isn't real in one universe

[solemn bough]

i think you need to define what you mean by "clone" because i dont think it would even be an appropriate term here and might be throwing people off who would otherwise agree with you

as someone pointed out if a clone is a flesh and blood copy of you without the soul, isnt a starborn the opposite?

i totally see what you mean though, at least i think. it reminds me more of the question about teleportation than it does cloning. theres a question that if teleportation were possible and could break you down into particles and send you to another location where you are instantly rebuilt, would you still be the same person? like the ship of theseus, but with all the original parts

so when you go through the unity, is that really you that comes out the other side? or a "clone" who simply has your appearance and memories, and thus thinks that they are you

as to whether the starborn tech is actually derived from the discoveries made in the crucible, i dont know and i see no evidence

[solemn bough]

and the unity most certainly does not say these exact words, or i think anything implying that certain physical parts of you are saved and those are what are used to make your other selves.

[leaden gale]

No? There's no examples of souls in starfield this far at all. And starborn have flesh and blood. You're a copy of the original you, who died when they entered the Unity. Now you're just radio active with star radiation.

[leaden gale]

You say "it sounds like I'm going to die" and unity says "just like when a star dies"

[silk lotus]

I just see it as reincarnation via star induced suicide.

[leaden gale]

https://youtu.be/_rlCi-aHFnE?t=222

[upper drum]

The unity says much like a star dying creates new kinds of matter, so will a part of you become one with the unity. That part becomes starborn. That part is what crosses into the multiverse.

[solemn bough]

"that intangible part of you, that 'something' that makes you unique among the infinite" many people would call this a "soul"

[upper drum]

^

[leaden gale]

Well unity tells you that something that makes you unique dies.

[solemn bough]

"will explode like a supernova" is what they say

[upper drum]

No. It says that becomes part of the unity. That part becomes starborn. The unique part.

[solemn bough]

"a part of you will fuse with the essence of this universe, while a part of you leaves it behind forever"

[upper drum]

You leave behind your flesh.

[leaden gale]

A supernova is the complete destruction of a star.

[upper drum]

Yes, the body.

[solemn bough]

"much like the death of a star creating new kinds of matter, so will a part of your being become fused with the unity itself"

"that part is what becomes starborn and crosses into the multiverse"

[leaden gale]

https://youtu.be/_rlCi-aHFnE?t=136
"That untangible part of you, that "something" that makes you unique amongst the infinite will explode like a supernnova."

A supernova is the complete destruction of a star.

You then state "That sounds like death."

Unity responds, "Just like when a star dies..."

I didn't like that my argument got superceded by the video thumbnail, so:

"That untangible part of you, that "something" that makes you unique amongst the infinite will explode like a supernnova."

A supernova is the complete destruction of a star.

You then state "That sounds like death."

Unity responds, "Just like when a star dies..."

[solemn bough]

now tie that into the cloning thing

[leaden gale]

The un-unique part of you is used to make copies of you.

[upper drum]

No...

[solemn bough]

i think its important to note that the word "explode" is not necessarily synonymous with destruction

[upper drum]

We already know there are variants of us via the Emessary before even becoming a Starborn

[leaden gale]

Just like when a star goes supernnova, some of its mass is shot into the universe. The star is destroyed, but some of its mass is shot into the cosmos.

[leaden gale]

There are variants of you across the multiverse but you are the first to become starborn.

[upper drum]

What they are saying is, we are unique in that we are the first variant to become Starborn. This means other variants of us will also now become starborn.

That doesn't mean we are a clone of ourself. None of them are clones.

[leaden gale]

No, what they're saying is you lose something unique every time you enter the unity, because you die. Copies of you are made. They aren't the 'unique' part of you from your (the player's) first universe.

Every clone grows and becomes unique, too. and when they enter the unity and die, that thing that made them different is lost.

[solemn bough]

i think that's just your interpretation of what they're saying. it seems purposefully vague

[upper drum]

Technically that special thing, the unque thing could simply be the whole "First experience" or ignorance is bliss. We lose it. Tbh, Bethesda dev just sitting there rubbing their hands together like "Wait till we answer this question outright in 5 years."

[leaden gale]

purposefully vague? Unity literally compares your death to the death of a star when you say "It sounds like I'm going to die."

There is absolutely nothing vague about that.

You yourself observed that when you teleport and your molecules are all torn apart, you're only getting a copy on the other side in the teleporter paradigm.

[solemn bough]

okay but you're going from there to "that means all starborn are clones"

theres a big gap between "you will explode like a supernova" and "we will take the leftover physical parts of you and make them into a bunch of clones"

and?

[leaden gale]

the parts of my original character were created to make multiple clones of said character, shot off into new universes.

[solemn bough]

bruh lol how can you not see the gaps in your reasoning

what if another human you became a starborn independently?

and dont tell me thats not possible just because the hunter says you die in every universe hes been to

[leaden gale]

the game sets up that you are unique. No other you has ever been observed to survive the lodge attack. the hunter always kills you. it's why he's so elated when you survive in the first place.

anyway i gotta get ready for work.

[upper drum]

Evil you has completely different life and experiences than you. It's simply another variant who became Starborn. Just like how when you go to the universe that has survivor Argos Extractor you. He will also become Starborn when you pass through the unity in that universe. He isn't Starborn until then. You being the first to become Starborn isn't the same as saying you are the only one. Just the first one to open the door. You cause that ripple that allows other variants to do the same.

An Evil Variant who tells you that they have already lived multiple existences in the time it took you to live one. Timey whimey and game mechanics randomizes unique universes aside. You can't ignore that he's lived a life your character doesn't remember or experience and he's already got NG+10 Starborn armor. 🤷‍♂️

That aside. - Have a great day at work, dude!

[solemn bough]

infinite universes, so infinite universes where you're the one who survived the hunter attack

i'm also not sure if the alternate lodge starts are even meant to be taken as canon

if they are, then we can also say zealots are under the control of house va'ruun and aren't the renegades they're made out to be

[upper drum]

Tbh. I think this is likely true to some capacity regardless.

[solemn bough]

yeah theres a good chance

but it would be kind of a big thing to reveal in what is basically an easter egg

[upper drum]

Because unless I'm miss remembering, isn't she dealing with a Zealot when we find her. They are after her for going off plan, right?

[solemn bough]

yeah, but then in the "evil andreja" lodge start shes commanding a squad of zealots and states that she is under direct orders from her home planet

[upper drum]

Yeah, I recall that. I always took it as this was the variant of Andreja that didn't go off plan.

[solemn bough]

yeah but then it means zealots follow orders from va'ruunkai which is not supposed to be true

[upper drum]

That's what I'm saying. I thought it was breadcrumbs that they likely are in some capacity. Maybe not everyone knows they are, but they are.

[solemn bough]

ohhh yeah i see what you mean now.

[upper drum]

That's been my assumption the whole time at least. Like, maybe the president doesn't know, but the General does sort of shenanigans.

[solemn bough]

so its never explained in game why the zealots were after her? did tomisar send them?

i did that quest but i cant recall

[upper drum]

Same.

[solemn bough]

If you use Serpent's Embrace on Andreja in that universe you become allies with them. And they call you "caller"

Va'ruun Zealot Captain: I smile today in the knowledge that the Great Serpent has truly blessed my ship and my crew.
Why else would he have delivered unto me the dregs of our purge years ago, the offal that escaped our righteous justice.
Your pathetic ‘’High council’’ who betrayed the charge laid upon them by the Great Serpent, gave you over to us to atone for their own sins.

It sounds like the High Council let Tomisar sic zealots on Andreja's friends

[upper drum]

So it seems like the Council- ^

[solemn bough]

the vibe when you confront tomisar seems to be he was acting on his own. like he got converted to the zealot point of view at some point

he doesnt seem to actually explain himself at all which sucks. itd be nice to know his motivation

That whole quest might be expanded on in SS

yeah i'm sure we'll learn a lot

we are going to their capital and bailing them out of a disaster after all

True. I also feel like a whole lot of stuff will be expanded on. Seems like lots of stuff was cut at launch.

And thus getting introduced via Shattered Space

i doubt it. it seems more common to just drop new stuff than it is to expand on old stuff

[silk lotus]

The way I see it is zealots are a rouge military group who disagree with the current va'ruun leadership. Andreja being loyal to the current va'ruun government and it the rouge zealots.

[solemn bough]

andreja isn't actually loyal to the va'ruun though

her primary loyalty is to sarah and constellation

idk it's all very confusing without actually playing the quest again

Andreja's loyalty to House Va'ruun is absolutely in question. Which is why Tomisar was right in what he did.

[solemn bough]

that would be up to his superiors. the way the quest is framed makes it seem like he wouldn't want them finding out about what he did

Definitely. I guess time will tell what will happen.

for all we know working with zealots is one of the biggest no-no's they have

[silk lotus]

Tomisar was working with the zealots though. Not the proper va'ruun agencies.

I see zealots as the starfield version of Cerberus (mass effect) basically a rouge organization that cut ties with their military and government and now operate as a independent organization with collaborators and spies in the government/military they split from.

I keep wondering if the va'ruun could be looking at their own civil war between the zealots and the current va'ruun administration.

Also what if we meet Anasko and he/she is just a really cool and chill dude/dudette and not some crazy nutjob?

The trailer does have subtitles for some of the whispers in the beginning of the trailer. "Save Anasko" and "the citadel has fallen".

Maybe the zealots attempt a coup and we have to save Anasko from said coup?

[solemn bough]

"restore the citadel" also

idk i feel like there's a bit more to it than that. some weird power seems to have broken loose. and then there's all those pods

[silk lotus]

Probably.

[solemn bough]

The voice also says "Dazra has fallen"

[silk lotus]

Maybe that's the one I'm thinking of.

You know how the dragonborn dlc basically changes the dragonborns title to the last dragonborn? Maybe the dlc will also give a proper epithet for the player character. Just a thought.

[solemn bough]

The player character will be called the "caller"

[silk lotus]

What makes you think that Zahir?

[solemn bough]

maybe, but the PC in skyrim is THE dragonborn. that's your identity, no matter what. something va'ruun related wouldnt be appropriate

because the player character might not associate themselves with them

[solemn bough]

If you use serpents embrace on Andreja in that ng plus universe you become friendly with the zealots and they call you "caller"

[silk lotus]

True, maybe well get that with the starborn dlc. Imagine the last starborn.

[spiral stirrup]

Isn't the Aceles choice obviously better?

A virus designed to kill an entire species will be forced to mutate as the terrormorphs become extinct. The virus will run out of "food" and be forced to evolve guaranteed if it's that targeted.

[silk lotus]

I did not know that.

[solemn bough]

You can probably find a video on YT

[solemn bough]

but also you're not meant to be some kind of "chosen one" in this game like in basically every other bgs rpg

you're just another starborn, nothing special about you really except your choices

[silk lotus]

You may be right clarence.

[solemn bough]

the player does get some titles associated with the major questlines

like in cf/sysdef you're "the rook" in vanguard i guess you're "the captain"

https://youtu.be/bT2XEPaoVZo?feature=shared
@silk lotus

[leaden gale]

This is evidence that the serpent is starborn. Why else would he care if you collect the artifacts or not?

[spiral stirrup]

They could've seen a Starborn use their powers or something , got an artifact from them, and want to know more. Constellations wants the artifacts and they aren't starborn

[solemn bough]

why would he say the artifacts are blasphemy?

[leaden gale]

Andreja says they're heresy. Which doesn't explain why she gives them to you.

[solemn bough]

actually all she says is "the great serpent told me there was one more constellation member left" she states that the decision was made by house va'ruun to go get the artifacts

[leaden gale]

To keep anyone from approaching his power. If everyone is super, no one is.

https://tenor.com/view/the-incredibles-syndrome-ang-when-everyones-super-no-one-will-be-super-heroes-gif-5389961

[solemn bough]

What drugs are you on today?

[leaden gale]

Rude.

[spiral stirrup]

Not enough

[solemn bough]

wouldnt he already know of their existence then?

HAH, just messing with you. Your theories are... interesting.

[solemn bough]

not really, they tend to immediately fall apart under basic questioning

[solemn bough]

Why of course! I was just being nice.

[spiral stirrup]

Constellation had their artifact in their archives for a long time right? So we know Sébastien banks and whomever else didn't become starborn from the current universe

But other people could've touched one in a cave too

[leaden gale]

They haven't fallen apart at all. You yourself admitted that you're killed every time you teleport, as an example.

You're a contrarian, clarence.

[solemn bough]

what the hell are you talking about lmao

what does that have to do with the great serpent being a starborn

and no, i didnt admit that at any point

[leaden gale]

Nothing. You opened this up to everything I say. I showed an example where you're wrong.

If you were a power mad dictator, would you allow anyone to strain power comparable to your own? Why else does the "great serpent" care if people find the artifacts?

[solemn bough]

I have to admit this is quite hilarious

[solemn bough]

mando. just because you can invent an explanation for something does not automatically make that thing true.

"the great serpent is a starborn because house va'ruun wants the artifacts" is not sound reasoning

you cant just pick one possible explanation that you like and decide that one has to be true. there are other possible explanations

itd be like if i walked into a room with a table full of sandwiches and picked up a sandwich and then you said "he took a sandwich, that must mean he's hungry" but that's not necessarily true. it is one plausible explanation, sure. but you cant automatically discount every other explanation just because you like the sound of that one. maybe i have a kid at home, and im taking the sandwich to bring to them. maybe i'm not hungry now but i wanna take a sandwich to save for later.

yes, IF the great serpent were a starborn, he might want to get the artifacts to prevent other starborn from challenging him. that makes perfect sense on its own. that doesnt mean it has to be the true explanation

[leaden gale]

House varuun doesn't want the artifacts. They consider them heresy. Pay attention.

[solemn bough]

....

[leaden gale]

Furthermore I didn't claim this was canon. I said this was evidence. And it is evidence.

[solemn bough]

"they want them" as in they want them so they can destroy them or whatever. if they didn't want them, they wouldnt send andreja to retrieve them.

[solemn bough]

it is not evidence because there is no rational connection between the two ideas.

[leaden gale]

Okay that's fair. The desire to destroy them is there. But definitely not to use them or attain them for the sake of attaining them.

[solemn bough]

maybe house va'ruun just hates the connection between universes and think it shouldnt exist

[solemn bough]

dude, NO ONE CLAIMED THIS. you are constantly acting like i'm taking positions that i'm not

[leaden gale]

Serpent is said to have created their universe and is going to return. So uhhhj destroying any way for him to return seems unhelpful.

[solemn bough]

all i said was "they want the artifacts" which they do. what they want them for? probably to destroy them. you need to stop twisting peoples words man

[solemn bough]

if he's starborn, which again is just your fanfic with no supporting evidence

[obsidian glade]

If the great serpent is a star born , how did he manifest himself as a “great serpent” in the prophets eyes?

[solemn bough]

and since when does using the artifacts allow you to return to a specific universe? fanfic

[solemn bough]

i dunno, apparently starborn can do anything and everything. they can broadcast themselves into your thoughts, they can time travel at will, they can do anything that peoples fan theories require them to

[obsidian glade]

I could see where Va’ruun would hate the multiverse since the unity could spit them out in any rando scenario

[solemn bough]

i'm of the opinion that the great serpent is a being on a whole other level from a starborn. if it was a starborn at one point, it certainly isn't anymore

it's a ghost in the machine

[obsidian glade]

In the material world

It’s also possible Jinan ate a bad chunk and was tripping . Wouldn’t be the 1st time a group of kool aid drinkers launched a war with absolutely nothing to go on but blind faith

[solemn bough]

Right now we simply do not know if House Va'ruun is even looking for the artifacts. We learn from Mir'za that she has never heard of such "unity". She believes that the unity is a ploy to deceive the faithful (Promised).

[solemn bough]

they've never heard of them, but apparently if they did, they'd consider them blasphemous and attempt to take possession of them

sending a squad of zealots to retrieve them

Hard to say what their views would be on it. Perhaps we'll find out more through the Shattered Space DLC.

[leaden gale]

A ship.

[solemn bough]

if he's a starborn, why doesn't he know about the artifacts without andreja infiltrating constellation first?

[leaden gale]

Why do you think he doesn't?

Afaik the serpent doesn't instruct jinan about them. There could be any myriad reasons, not least of which is that power corrupts and jinan might decide to start hunting them.

I'm at work so I can't watch the video again to pick a part what andreja says.

[solemn bough]

because he doesnt do anything about them? where are the zealots coming to take them?

why only in that one scenario does he send someone after them?

[leaden gale]

But I will point out that zahir said that the video having NPCs call you caller means you are the caller, despite not actually speaking to the serpent at all.

[leaden gale]

I just gave you a reason.

[solemn bough]

try to stay on topic mando

[solemn bough]

no you didnt lol. you said why he might not have told jinan about them. thats a different conversation

[leaden gale]

The topic is on point. You pick and choose what you want to be contrary about, then have the gall to say I make things up when all I said was that it's the evidence.

[leaden gale]

Reading comprehension, what even is it

[solemn bough]

if the great serpent is a starborn, and he wants to get the artifacts to prevent others from becoming starborn, why does he only try to get them in that one specific variant? that doesnt make any sense my dude.

no one is talking about jinan. he is entirely irrelevant to this question

[leaden gale]

Well, friend, he isn't in our universe. He's trying to return.

[solemn bough]

and what is he doing to that end?

[leaden gale]

Also it's stated that he created our universe. I think that's dubious at best but if it's true, he could be the endpoint of whatever starborn are.

[solemn bough]

so in every other variant, he wants to return, and needs the artifacts to do so? (lets forget that there is nothing suggesting he needs the artifacts before he can return) but in the one where andreja stays true to house va'ruun, he just so happens to NOT want to return?

dont forget what you said earlier: you said the fact that va'ruun wants the artifacts means the great serpent must be a starborn and the reason he wants them is to prevent others from becoming as powerful as he is.

There is simply zero evidence that the Great Serpent is Starborn