starfield-lore

[solemn bough]

theyre barely even the same kind of fantasy world

[leaden gale]

If you think cliffracers are the reason people bought house stark in the north, i have a bridge to sell you.

[solemn bough]

what

cliff racers were the mode of transportation from morrowind, right?

[leaden gale]

cliff racers were the annoying flying mobs that everyone hated, which skyrim directly references everyone hating in dawnguard.

https://tenor.com/view/cliff-racer-morrowind-dagoth-ur-gif-27437759

[solemn bough]

and how do those play in to the conversation we're having

[silver eagle]

this is starfield lore channel, let's bring the topic back to that please

[silver eagle]

Was not the comment, it was the way it was delivered.

also if you have questions about mod actions, please do so in @formal cloak

[solemn bough]

i'm terribly confused but alright

[slate valley]

LOL - Skyrim was in development for a number of YEARS before GOT. YEARS. Like 4 or 5. YEARS.

[leaden gale]

youre arguing with a matter of public record.

[faint cave]

Are ships being able to destroy asteroids massively bigger than them just a game mechanic, or can they actually do that in-universe?

[high copper]

I guess enough fire power you could

[faint cave]

That's a lot of firepower if even the Frontier can do it.

[high copper]

a question is, do the different sizes have different health amounts?

[faint cave]

From my experience, there is, but it's not a lot and even small ships can destroy large asteroids easily in-game.

[high copper]

guess it would be a nice little change if the big boys had like a lot more health, but also explodes into general smaller asteroids
would have the most of resources

[daring lake]

The asteroids are a game mechanic imo.
Their orbits would degrade irl and, unless there is a new source
to replenish them, should impact the planet below leaving a clear
orbital path for spacecraft.

[slate valley]

Nope. Skyrim is the 5th ES game and was in development for years prior to BGS being offered the GOT IP. They declined the new IP. Skyrim was already in the works and was never the "instead" that you claim.

[glacial arrow]

I'm just gonna say it: the Cataxi make no !@#$ing sense. They're supposedly carnivorous apex predators, highly aggressive and extremely dangerous. I feel like the amount of them in the mission is waaay too many, simply judging by potential food sources.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe they've been surviving off the human corpses, maybe? But I doubt those burned bodies would be enough to feed that many Cataxi for months.

[daring lake]

Nest building insect types will do what Cataxi do.
Social grouping. Also they seem quite dormant, almost
like a spider would be. Just waiting for a meal to enter their trap

[glacial arrow]

Except that also makes no !@#$ing sense, because Cataxi territory is blatantly obvious.

[daring lake]

?
They are all over the planet

[glacial arrow]

...okay, fair point. In which case, I guess their prey wouldn't have a choice but to traverse through their space...

[daring lake]

Ambush predators. I've done full survey of Freya. I've only seen
Cataxi on the surface when they are ambushing other Fauna, or
trying to get a taste of me 🙂

[glacial arrow]

Freya is basically Space Australia cranked up to eleven. Death Star it from orbit, imo.

[daring lake]

It is unique. No human POI's other than Nishina.

... on any planet in system

[glacial arrow]

The real problem would be if UC or Freestar ever tried weaponizing Cataxi

Goodbye Settled Systems, hello, infected planets

[daring lake]

Nah. Already have an answer to their threat.

Plus, their are meaner critters out there 😉

[glacial arrow]

That's only a temporary solution, as repeatedly proven in the mission. Seals, barriers, and logistics never last forever - it's only a matter of time and circumstance before something goes horribly wrong. It's a matter of WHEN, not IF.

The exact same reason I keep saying the current world's structure of relying on logistics is a guaranteed doomsday. COVID proved my point quite well, when those logistical systems faltered and failed, leaving stores empty across the country.

[faint cave]

Which member has which room in the Lodge?
The one with the gym equipment is probably Andreja's, Vlad's, or Sarah's, the one with the scientific equipment is Noel, the one with pillow on the floor is Sam's for when Cora doesn't want to sleep in the basement. The one with the inaccessible weapon cases is either Andreja's or Sarah's. The one with the Report on Constellation log is probably Walter's. The one with all the books is probably Matteo's.
Not sure about the others.
Does anyone have pictures or videos of them sleeping?

[daring lake]

The pillow on the floor is Matteo's room

[heavy vigil]

Walter's first one up the stairs, Sarah's the next one along the corridor.

Coming to the corner after the bar, Andreja's is on the left, then the common room on the right, followed by yours, then Matteo's

[daring lake]

Andreja's is opposite "Your" room, down the small corridor

[heavy vigil]

Vlad's was Andreja's I believe he mentions giving it up for her

Unsure off the top of my head on the last few

[faint cave]

Huh, wouldn't have guessed.

[faint cave]

What the heck does he do there?

[daring lake]

Sleep, and throw pillows

[faint cave]

Oh wait, prayer. Not sure why my mind went straight to the gutter. Must be the pink pillows.

So wait, where does Barrett and Sam sleep?

[heavy vigil]

Not sure which of the remaining rooms are theirs, without logging in. Guessing the gym equipment could be Sam's room as you can find Matteo asking him about working out

[obsidian glade]

What about the kids room downstairs? Maybe Sam and Cora bunk up there

[glacial arrow]

Cora's room is in the basement, Sam has a room up with everyone else

If you go up the stairs and go to the right, you hit Walter's on the corner, Sarah is across from him. Then Matteo on the left, with whatsherface, the scientist always scanning you on the right. Straight ahead of you is Sam's room, I wanna say. If you then turn left, you reach your room, with the empty one to the right, and the common room just past yours.

[solemn bough]

thank you lol

[leaden gale]

Howard explains this by saying, “We wanted to do our world. That’s where we wanted to put out time into. Before we were even making Skyrim, there was a conversation with George R.R. Martin’s people. They thought it would be a good match—and so did we, actually—but then we thought about if that was where we wanted to spend our time. It was tempting, though.”

[solemn bough]

yes we know they were asked if they wanted to make an ASOIAF game

[leaden gale]

Before they began work on Skyrim.

[solemn bough]

that doesnt mean "the main pull of skyrim was that its game of thrones"

or whatever you tried to say before

[leaden gale]

Accept that you are wrong.
😌

[solemn bough]

wrong about what?

[trim tendon]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-viralhog-cute-im-watching-you-security-guard-gif-20604758

[solemn bough]

neko no one is using this channel anyway

[silver eagle]

You still have to be nice!

[solemn bough]

we are

[ivory tree]

KITTY!

[glacial arrow]

Okay, I hear what you're saying. Counterpoint, if I'm considerate toward one person, what's next? Being nice to other people about other things? Where does it END?!

🥹

Besides, if anyone needs lessons in being nice, it's the Hunter. How dare he attack people for Artifacts.

[solemn bough]

emissary does it too tbf

[glacial arrow]

At least the Emissary has some remaining shred of humanity. Not enough, but still. It's at least understandable to gatekeep the Artifacts to prevent more Hunters.

[solemn bough]

what do we think of the idea that every universe the player can visit is relatively similar? are we supposed to think that every single universe is basically the same for the most part, or that the player is simply being limited to these extremely similar realities by the unity?

like the whole "central finite curve" from rick and morty

[solemn bough]

@leaden gale and you're not off the hook for this lol

[leaden gale]

No, we absolutely aren't.
I've been repeatedly tagged to continue a conversation we've been repeatedly told to shelve.

@silver eagle

I would love to continue it. I've got oodles of evidence. But you ignore any evidence that doesn't support your claims. But the thing is, I don't wanna get penalized for answering repeated summons to a conversation we were told to stop.

[near slate]

Okay yeah guys we are gonna need to shelve this whole conversation and get back on topic. Let's not anger the Kraken.

[solemn bough]

yowza

[orchid juniper]

if Aurora is fish oil based do you think it's good for your hair and skin? Like do Aurora addicts have luxurious hair?

[torn zodiac]

I mean, they're not putting it in their hair

so maybe slightly shinier, but also we have no way of knowing if it's the right kind of fish oil

[orchid juniper]

you don't put fish oil in your hair anyway. usually it's in vitamins or in pet food for pets coats.

[silver eagle]

https://tenor.com/view/scarey-boo-rawr-cute-gif-22290620

[high copper]

I'm gonna make another Deal with Bayu, gonna make more bank with this new Cassambas Hair Formula

[leaden gale]

is all fish hair beneficial to human hair by virtue of being fish oil?

i legitimately don't know anything about hair products.

[torn zodiac]

as far as I'm aware there's no proven benefit to fish oil - it's one of those supplements that I don't think gets federal approval (I might be wrong, it's been a while)

[orchid juniper]

Lovaza is a legit medicine based off Omega 3 fish oils

whether or not it's helpful for hair isn't proven though. I do notice my dogs coats look better when they have food with fish oils in them however.

[keen acorn]

Hmm a new spiked haired doo. Hmmm

[solemn bough]

https://imgur.com/a/RRoZwhe

Yup, though I need to change my Characters face, somehow I messed up in Chara tee creator and he looks Al Baby faced now

[scenic loom]

The starborn are one with the stars

[solemn bough]

chirp chirp

[tiny pelican]

I think I have found a clue to Walters sudden influx of start up cash. There a three stroud- ecklunds logo signs in Neon. 1 in core. 1 in front office and one in larger area where you meet Issa. Looking at 3 of them I come to the conclusion that images on them represent a map. One that seems to line up with the place your transported to after acquiring the final artifact, its also where you started. Curious!!
.

• At the buried temple. Sorry

Money from Starborn maybe.

[obsidian glade]

I thought he married Issa Eklund for her money

[solemn bough]

this is interesting. any way you can take some screenshots?

otherwise i might take a look later for myself

[solemn bough]

maybe she's the starborn lol

[high copper]

everyone is starborn

[solemn bough]

seriously, is there lore on where her wealth comes from?

[solemn bough]

tbf it makes a lot of sense to me that there are a lot of starborn who simply don't reveal themselves

[astral walrus]

sense star stuff

[solemn bough]

david baron is mentioned quite a bit for how small a role he plays in any quests, and the SSNN logo does resemble some starborn symbols

[tiny pelican]

I'm not sure how to do that on xbox.

How would I send them to you?

[silk lotus]

Imagine a starfield shadow broker (mass effect), a large information broker selling to and manipulating factions around the setteled systems. SSN is just a front operation used to sometimes spread information to the public.

[high copper]

all knowing information brokers have a chance of being really stupid and needing random ways to nerf their abilities, like the Yakuza series, the information broker characters aren't always a great idea

[silk lotus]

Maybe. But Bethesda isn't know for good ideas.

A starborn with knowledge about possible future events could use that knowledge to gain power and favor to start up a information business.

[solemn bough]

its a bit difficult with xbox but you can pull up your screengrabs on the xbox app and then upload them to an image hosting site, then put the link in here and it embeds the image

[orchid juniper]

if you have the xbox app and discord on your phone you can just copy the link to the screen shot from the xbox app and post it here directly

[glacial arrow]

Hmmm. So, I haven't really seen a lot of hard evidence, but if I'm just judging from the Starborn ships, their mental and physical needs seem to be radically different from humans. There's no beds, no bathrooms/showers, no kitchen.

[daring lake]

The craft is not made by Starborn though. It is actually one of the points
that supports the "Unity is a machine" hypothesis.

[glacial arrow]

Mmmm, I'm not sure I'm seeing it. From what I can tell, the Unity provides for a Starborn's needs, likely to support their newborn status. Namely, an inner carapace to protect the body, and an outer carapace to carry it wherever it would go. More, the Unity even provides for initial monetary needs in the form of rare minerals and parts. From what I can see, I think the Starborn Guardian provides everything a Starborn requires to survive, which would imply they don't need to sleep or eat.

[daring lake]

I can't agree with that reasoning.

[glacial arrow]

So you're saying the Guardian is only an initial support to get them to somewhere that has facilities that meet human needs?

I don't really see it, because a vast majority of the Starborn we meet use their Starborn Guardians. If the Guardian didn't meet all the physical and mental needs of a Starborn, then it doesn't make sense to continue using it.

[daring lake]

I can't make you see it .... But .... A machine has no understanding of human needs.
You go to the Unity in your spaceship and when you are "sliced and diced" and
re-built, the machine gives you a body, a space suit and a ship. There is nothing
to suggest that the Unity has any feelings about what you do going forward.
The mats in the hold are not worth much in terms of credits btw

[glacial arrow]

I hear what you're saying, and I understand your reasoning. At the same time, I don't see that apparent lack of understanding to be conclusive evidence it's a machine. I feel like you might be confusing correlation for causation in that instance. It doesn't need to be a machine to either not understand or flatout not care about human needs.

[daring lake]

Oh ... The machine hypothesis has much more to it. But the point you raised
is just one of the things that support it.

[glacial arrow]

I mean, sure, it could be No Man's Sky all over again. If so, it's just less blatant.

[daring lake]

I've only ever watched NMS, never played it.
But it is a Sci-Fi device across all the media genre.

[glacial arrow]

No Man's Sky is a ||gigantic galaxy simulator run by the dying planet-large supercomputer ATLAS||. It's mere minutes away from ||being consumed by an encroaching black hole, which is causing major failures across the computer, making the galaxies glitchy||.

[daring lake]

This, from back in June will give you more idea of where my own thoughts lay.
#starfield-lore message

[glacial arrow]

Certainly a possible theory. I'm inclined toward 'Dark Tower'-esque thoughts.

[daring lake]

Well, strictly speaking its not a theory. But all the info I've gathered certainly
make it a plausible hypothesis. Unlike real science though, there are no
points where we can actually test it in order to create a theory.

[glacial arrow]

Something else that inclines me toward the idea that the Starborn Guardian is everything a Starborn needs is the name itself.

[daring lake]

I think it meets all the needs that The Unity thinks you need 🙂
No Humans have a Guardian. So the game designers made sure
that was explicit.

[glacial arrow]

That's always possible, too. Like I said, I haven't seen any real good evidence one way or the other, it was just my thoughts on how it looked.

[solemn bough]

a sufficiently advanced machine can easily have an understanding of human needs

not the emotional ones necessarily but everything else

[daring lake]

Perhaps. But "The Unity does not judge" and Unity "You" is completely ambivalent.
Why would it care? It does not seem to.

[solemn bough]

i wouldnt even say thats necessarily a machine-like quality either

and providing starborn with material support doesnt necessarily suggest the unity cares for them in some emotional capacity

if the unity is sentient and has some kind of purpose for us then it makes sense that it would do that

[daring lake]

Ok ... I don't know why you are so willing to make an argument over an opinion
though.

[solemn bough]

because my opinion is different? lol

i dont think the starborn ship not having a toilet supports the idea that the unity is a machine

if you don't want to discuss it, we don't have to ( :

[daring lake]

You are not discussing though. You keep telling me that my opinion is wrong.
And you do so by being a pedant rather than putting forward an idea that has
at least, however slim, something to base it on.

[solemn bough]

i mean, i don't know what you want me to say. you said "a machine has no understanding of human needs" but thats obviously not true. even our own rudimentary AI in the modern day know stuff like that. they know how much sleep we need and what kind of food we should eat

and your assertion that the fact that the guardian lacks basic things needed to sustain a human being is supportive of the unity being a machine is therefore false

that's not to say that means or supports the idea that it ISNT a machine, just that it doesnt necessarily support that it does. and you said theres more to that theory anyway

[solemn bough]

https://i.imgur.com/mHpsfh3.png

https://i.imgur.com/kxuTC0u.png

are these them? i couldnt find a third one

[plucky plover]

So are Starborn immortal or not lol? If a starborn stays in one universe, will they ever die from old age?

[analog junco]

I don't think we know if they age or if it "resets" everytime they go through the unity

[plucky plover]

Yeah that's what a lot of people say. I like to think they become immortal haha.

[solemn bough]

the implication is yes they will eventually die of old age if they stay in one uni

but the term "immortal starborn" also appears in-game

[plucky plover]

Yeah lol, I tend to think of that as the player character just being humorous in the moment and just saying that as an expression of their knowledge that the starborn can enter infinite universes, and knowing the Hunter has done it thousands of times, and therefore assuming they are immortal. But then it might also be included to actually confirm they are immortal. No idea lol, nice to speculate though, plus the ambiguity allows people to make up their own mind without having to go against it actually being confirmed one way or the other.

[solemn bough]

well the hunter definitely extended his lifespan

but i think the pilgrims notes talked about wanting to stop hopping universes so that he could eventually die

so maybe it just means you wont die of old age so long as you keep hopping

[tiny pelican]

Yes that is them.

Yes. That is them.

Two in his office. One of them is behind assistant in the front. One is on wall in larger second room above you as you walk into it. The third on the main strip . Hard to miss that one. Let me know what you think.

🙂

[solemn bough]

actually there are only two variations, the smaller one and the larger one. but maybe you could show me how the map is formed because i have no idea lol

[obsidian sentinel]

i dont think they are immortal... since - you can kill them they just become one with unity .. you dont see the same starborn encounter each temple or main mission.. but once jumping to unity they are recreated again in that said other universe...

[plucky plover]

Are they the same starborn you killed though, or are they other versions of those same starborn? Meaning the specific starborn you killed in your previous universe at each temple were killed permanently never to be seen again, but infinite other versions of them also exist and could be the ones you encounter in the other universes.

[solemn bough]

those temple guardians have combat dialogue where they say they remember fighting you before

[plucky plover]

Another version of you?

[obsidian sentinel]

just like the Infinite rick and morty saga .. different starborn from different universe...

[daring lake]

.... and they killed "You"

[solemn bough]

i dont know about that, i remember the line just mentioning the encounter

[obsidian sentinel]

https://tenor.com/view/rick-gif-24532295

[keen acorn]

I would treat it like when you die. What happens to you? You are a Starborn. You appear at your last save location and continue on. I know I hate being logical but that is just me.

[solemn bough]

my boys reddit and memey

[solemn bough]

that happens when you arent starborn too lol

[keen acorn]

Maybe you dont remember being Starborn.

[solemn bough]

but when you're starborn and you die, you collapse into a bunch of particles. that doesnt happen before you enter the unity for the first time

[faint cave]

What's the name of the tree in New Atlantis in that mission? I just did it and all I ever heard was 'the tree' or 'this tree'.

[broken flower]

Harold

[faint cave]

Fantastic thank you

[leaden gale]

I have no strong opinion on it all being one machine (I still think it's all a result of crucible, but that's here nor there) but the thing that struck me odd last night as i blasted umpteen temples before unity skipping was... Guardians. So many Starborn are called "Guardian." their ships are called Guardians, too.

Guardians from what?

[plucky plover]

How did humanity first start becoming starborn?

[obsidian minnow]

Well its started with your mom meeting your dad. and a STAR was born 9 months later

[silk lotus]

Human finds artifact, then temple, then unity, then boom starborn.

Kind the only way to become starborn as far as we know.

[obsidian minnow]

Well arent we all starborn tho? We are made of Spacedust.. and the sum of atoms in our bodies are more multitude than stars in the universe.

[analog junco]

https://tenor.com/view/eye-roll-ugh-stanley-hudson-leslie-david-baker-rolls-eyes-gif-16850821

[obsidian glade]

Why are are there no beds, toilets or eating facilities on starborn ships ?

[glacial arrow]

I was thinking about this yesterday, and I'm not convinced their bodies require it. Think about it: a Starborn doesn't even LEAVE A CORPSE when they die. How different must their physiology be to do that, to scatter into what the game calls 'quantum essence'? Not to mention how incredibly different they must be to be capable of harnessing physics to produce what could best be described as 'superpowers'.

Starborn are certainly human in appearance, but as our scientist gal at Constellation says, even the trace physiological readings she can pick up on are RADICALLY different from anything human. And on top of that, from the Commander in MAST, we know that Starborn bodies give off solar radiation, which is probably a large part of why it's so hard to scan us.

Now, can they eat, sleep, use a toilet, or have children? To the first two, we KNOW the answer is YES - we can eat food and even benefit from it, and we can sleep. But the latter two aren't so clear.

[daring lake]

"They" ? .... The player character goes through the Unity and becomes Starborn.
There is no "they" as in a seperate race of beings. We cease to be human, but
retain human characteristics.

[glacial arrow]

Humans can't scatter into starlight.

[daring lake]

And? 🙂

[glacial arrow]

Retaining a human appearance doesn't imply human physiology on the inside. And we know Starborn physiology is so radically alien to what can be called human that we are literally described as 'something else'.

[daring lake]

Yes, but, kindly ... What point are you trying to make?

[glacial arrow]

What are you on about? The man asked a question, and I gave him an answer.

Namely, that I'm not convinced Starborn require what are considered human necessities.

[daring lake]

Ah, the point I disagree with. Fair enough.

[glacial arrow]

Can they emulate those things? In at least two of four cases (eating, sleeping, toilet, children), the answer is clearly YES. But the latter have no answers, and there's no way to know if any of it is REQUIRED for a Starborn to continue living.

[daring lake]

Maybe you are overthinking a little? Starborn were humans who passed
through the Unity. Lots of evidence for that. Why would they have
different needs than "You"? . No evidence to support that they are different.

[glacial arrow]

Only circumstantial evidence, yes. Namely the Starborn Guardian ship and a Starborn's fundamentally alien physiology. This is why I said there's no hard evidence their physical needs are different.

I only suggested it as a possible idea why the ships wouldn't support human needs.

[solemn bough]

There is actually Star orn beds you have to use the AIO mod for skullys emporium

What if the bathroom if the Starborn suit just handles all that. You poop the suit removes it, you pee the suit removes it.

And I assume the the suit also keeps you fed and watered, unless you choose to eat and drink regularly food then you can also do that

[solemn bough]

no, because that's now what starborn means lol

[solemn bough]

their physiology has completely changed, is that not enough to suggest their bodily functions might be different?

[glacial arrow]

Especially when paired with the ships they're born with/in.

I feel like their mobile egg should logically be enough to care for their needs.

Starborn GUARDIAN, after all.

[solemn bough]

i liked the way you referred to it as an "outer carapace"

if they don't have to eat though i wonder if they still can if they choose to and how would that work. might be hard to conceal your identity if everyone sees you skipping every single meal

[glacial arrow]

We know they can emulate eating and sleeping (and even benefit from both)

Their altered physiology may or may not deal with waste in a different way, and we've got (to my knowledge) exactly zero clues about Starborn fertility or how it works in a Starborn x Human cross. We do know Starborn can at least emulate a physical drive for intimacy, though, so who knows.

[solemn bough]

oh yeah i'm stupid lmao, the player does it.

[glacial arrow]

Not by itself, no. There's only a possibility of it and no real evidence besides their mobile egg not meeting human needs.

[solemn bough]

well that's why i included the word "might"

[daring lake]

"They" .... Should be "We" .. "You" seems no different to other Starborn.

[solemn bough]

we're not really starborn vimes, we're humans who play video games

[glacial arrow]

The player is obviously no different from other Starborn, of course. But that's getting off the point.

[solemn bough]

itd be weird if i said "we" when i talked about any other faction i'm a part of lol

[daring lake]

The point is that there is no "They". No difference.

[solemn bough]

[glacial arrow]

Neither of us has ever at any point tried to imply the player is different from other Starborn, so I don't know what you're smoking.

[solemn bough]

he's saying we should be using "we" instead of "they" because our characters are starborn too. which obviously makes no sense at all but that's what he's saying

our characters could also not be starborn, or we could have multiple characters

but that'd be like if i was talking about master chief in third person and someone said "actually you are master chief, so you should be saying "i" and not "he"

[glacial arrow]

Anyway. With such fundamentally different physiology, aye, I could understand if Starborn needs were different, or outright non-existent given all the other whacky stuff surrounding Starborn.

Now, I must go make sure my pizza doesn't burn but I shall return eventually.

[solemn bough]

also just now realizing not only can they benefit from eating, but they can also suffer from not eating depending on what sliders the player has on

[crystal zealot]

Might be more of a gameplay choice rather than a lore choice considering that difficulty is opt in. Would suck for some players if survival needs were essentially unavailable after their first time through ||the unity||.

[solemn bough]

yeah its just that it contributes to a disconnect between lore and gameplay which hurts immersion

wish there wasnt so much of that

[glacial arrow]

But if we're ignoring gameplay options and just going by what we see in-game, the only evidence (that I'm aware of) either way is the Starborn Guardian's lack of human necessities and several NPCs pointing out how UTTERLY ALIEN the Starborn truly, PHYSICALLY are once you look past their mere appearance.

So I just think there's a possibility that while they can emulate at least most human requirements in order to fit in or enjoy their effectively infinite lifespan (as long as they keep going through Unity), they may not actually need any of those things to live.

[solemn bough]

whats your take on how the lifespan works? are you effectively immortal as long as you keep jumping? does it reset you to that age every time you go back? if you stop jumping will you die after a normal amount of human years or do you just inherently live for longer?

[glacial arrow]

Oh, and also the fact that Starborn don't even leave a corpse, but scatter in starlight. Which is a MASSIVE alteration in physiology from a mere human.

[solemn bough]

it does seem curious if they dont have to eat or sleep or any of that but they still only live as long as a human does

[solemn bough]

thats what i meant before when i said their physiology completely changed. like do you even have organs anymore?

[glacial arrow]

If we're ignoring game mechanics, then we're ignoring how you can change your appearance and name post-Unity every time.

[solemn bough]

you couldnt do that on launch anyway, that was specifically added in for gameplay purposes

[glacial arrow]

If the lore is that you can't change your appearance each time, then I suspect the Unity keeps your original appearance from whenever you became Starborn, which is why you're immortal as long as you pursue the Armillary.

[solemn bough]

but also does it matter since you can change your appearance and name at the clinics in game

[glacial arrow]

The Pilgrim said it himself, that you're basically immortal if you take that path, outside of being killed.

And that you'll die of old age if you stop using Unity.

[solemn bough]

but he also seems to think he'll die of old age when he stops jumping. i wonder if that would just be normal human time or if he'd have some extended life still like aragorn from lotr

[glacial arrow]

So my assumption, based on the Emissary's physical age, is that the Unity keeps your ORIGINAL Starborn form

So whatever age you become Starborn at, is what you revert to after being reborn each time

[solemn bough]

also when the hunter arrives in a new universe i wonder if he reverts to a younger appearance

[glacial arrow]

No, and I have proof

Hunter said it himself: his goal has always been to gather the Armillary as swiftly as possible.

Hence, he wasted no time at all, and yet he's OLD, really old.

So I think he became Starborn at an old age, so it keeps returning him at that age

Because he definitely hasn't been sitting around waiting to gather the pieces.

[solemn bough]

it might just not be on him though. there could be factors outside his control that cause him to have to wait for certain things to happen

like he could be getting sent back to a time before grav drives were widely available

[glacial arrow]

That's a possibility, HOWEVER.... the Emissary.

I don't think your idea is likely but it's possible

[solemn bough]

emissary would have a more recent "return" point anyway which is why they would look about the same age as the human version

[glacial arrow]

Except I've an answer to that, as well: if the Emissary shows up later, I could guarantee the Hunter would've figured out where that happens by now after so many repeats, and have been waiting to obliterate the Emissary on spawn point.

Also the reverse. So I don't think there was much time lag between them spawning.

[solemn bough]

idk if thats necessarily true. the settled systems are a pretty big place

i guess it depends on a lot of things

[glacial arrow]

I just don't see it as likely, but you could be right

Oh, and one more potentiality: there is no OLDER STARBORN YOU.

That might be a mechanics thing, but they could have run the wrinkles thing on any doppleganger NPCs

[solemn bough]

well yeah because you enter every universe at the same time. if the unity resets your age to what it was at that point in time then every version of you would appear to be the same age physically at least

[glacial arrow]

Exactly.

[solemn bough]

like aquilus and the hunter both entered the... wait

that means they should have both arrived in the universe at the same point in time and space

which obviously doesnt make sense. wtf

not to mention the same goes for any other starborn "you"s

[glacial arrow]

I'm sorry, I said you're correct, but you're only half-correct

[solemn bough]

break it down for me lol

[glacial arrow]

As things happen differently across universes, the timing gets thrown off

And I suspect the locations change depending on circumstance, as well.

But mainly the timing, so no, they wouldn't have appeared at the same MOMENT, even if it was the same SPOT.

Well, in INFINITE universes, I'm sure what you described HAS happened at some point, or will

[solemn bough]

dont you think its significant that the player character always gets sent back to the exact same point in time (shortly after touching the artifact) and over the same planet where they touched it?

[glacial arrow]

Except I think I noticed a difference when I got a 'joke universe'

[solemn bough]

which was what?

[glacial arrow]

It was still the same system, but instead of telling me I was at Vectera, it simply said I was in the Narion System.

I didn't actually investigate where I had actually spawned, but I did notice that detail

[solemn bough]

iirc it says both

[glacial arrow]

It might've, maybe. I could've overlooked something.

However, there's something else that proves your theory wrong.

[solemn bough]

plus you cant just be floating out in space, you have to be orbiting a planet which was most likely vectara anyway

[glacial arrow]

Namely, the universe with multiple Yous in it.

All of whom are Starborn.

[solemn bough]

yeah thats sort of what i thought of before. it presents the same issue as the hunter and aquilus

[glacial arrow]

They didn't all spawn at once - in fact, they all spawned individually over time

[solemn bough]

right, but when and where and why

[glacial arrow]

Here's what I think is most likely: that I'm correct, but because of mechanical reasons, it has to be the same time that we appear at.

Otherwise Bethesda would have to alter the entire game to account for time passage

[solemn bough]

correct about what? i'm a bit lost

[glacial arrow]

This bit here. I think you're wrong about that, and that the only reason we consistently spawn at the same moment in time is so Bethesda didn't have to account for a different time period.

[solemn bough]

yeah no sorry. i think i'm wrong too. i never considered the fact that aquilus and hunter must have had two separate points of arrival which breaks the idea that you always go back to the same time and place. but the player DOES always go back to the same time and place no matter what. and other starborn always appear to be the same age physically that they always are

and also the starborn yous

[glacial arrow]

Yeah. Like I said, I think the PLAYER always spawning in the same moment is just mechanics

Otherwise that makes the game development a thousand times more complex

[solemn bough]

but its worth noting that the hunter and aquilus always look like the same very old man and the emissary always looks identical age-wise to their human counterpart

which to me suggests they usually enter at around the same point too

honestly i'd just chalk this all up to oversights and lack of communication at the studio resulting in a lot of inconsistencies

[glacial arrow]

Explain this?

[solemn bough]

well its difficult since we dont know how the aging works both actually and apparently. but if you revert to a younger age every time you enter the unity, then that means the hunter and aquilus are always in any given universe long enough to turn into old men. and the emissary is always there for briefly enough to appear to be the same age as their human counterpart

and also that hunter and aquilus enter at around the same time, if not exactly

but its also possible that your physical appearance is "locked in" when you become starborn. so when the hunter arrives in a new universe, he's already old and when the emissary arrives, they're always young.

[glacial arrow]

This suggests three things to me:
-Given Aquilus has been living in-universe for decades, Starborn age SUPER slowly, because he and Hunter look identical

-Constellation become Starborn at roughly the same time you do, and the Unity resets appearance to your original Starborn self

-The Unity's changes to your physiology involve an adult body. See point 1 about slow aging, yet Starborn Cora is a young adult, and yet the time period is the same as normal. She hasn't had time to grow up normally if their growth is that slow.

So by all that logic, Aquilus and Hunter must've become a Starborn much later in life than anyone from Constellation.

There's also another possibility, though it's... less likely, maybe? Perhaps Starborn don't physically age, but still come to an end if they stop jumping.

[solemn bough]

if aquilus has been living among humans for decades though wouldnt that suggest that he probably ages normally in terms of appearance? otherwise people would take notice

[glacial arrow]

Except they might assume he's using Enhance to look younger.

[crystal zealot]

The elapsed time may be subject to scrutiny, as a fixed point in time may not matter to a Cora who has passed through the Unity again and aged during that process.

[glacial arrow]

There's holes, yes. It's why I said it's just some things that came to mind, not hard facts.

[solemn bough]

perhaps. the existence of enhance kinda throws a wrench into everything lol

[glacial arrow]

But at least I wanted the ideas out there to toy around with

[solemn bough]

i really hope we get a liiittle bit of info on these things with SS. just a little bit more insight into how the unity functions would be great

[solemn bough]

Well I did run into an evil me version start when I was spamming new game plus with the OldmansBeard guys mod.

So I wonder if evil version me was there already could that mean he was another Starborn that got sent to a different point in time a bit ahead of me.

Plus there was a reality where I got there and constellation was old and Retired so I would say that is a different point in time.

were they old or just retired?

[glacial arrow]

I hear what you're saying. Counterpoint, if you step back outside and go check the news/MAST, you'll find it's still the same time period.

Events happened differently in some cases, but the timeframe remains the same (PROBABLY to cut down on development)

@solemn bough Also, about organs and internals... we know Starborn have something like bones, and that they can bleed, and dislocate joints and limbs....

We also know they have an approximation of lungs...

And on top of all that, they resemble humans well enough that doctors don't lose their minds trying to heal you. HOWEVER, that could be due to them simply using medicine to heal you, rather than surgery.

Whatever their internal makeup is, reads as something wildly off the charts to scanners because the functionality is so radically different, but is still a physically-close approximation to what a human might look like, apparently.

That whole scattering into starlight thing dead Starborn do, as well, could be tied to keeping their hidden physiology a secret.

[solemn bough]

oh yeah, and obviously a skull and brain when you get operated on at ryujiin

[glacial arrow]

You can't dissect one if it breaks apart into space dust

[solemn bough]

and eyes and a tongue, teeth, etc. so i guess we probably have everything

[glacial arrow]

Yes, but according to ...Nash's?... scanners, the performance is wildly off the charts.

"Trace physiological and neurological readings are off the charts. You really are .... something else."

So while Starborn can pass as human to a cursory inspect, Starborn bodies do wildly different things, like EMIT SOLAR RADIATION PASSIVELY.

Hells, it doesn't even START when you become Starborn, either

Player's body goes off the scales the moment they gain a power.

Still humanish, not Starborn, but obviously altered to a significant degree.

[astral walrus]

https://tenor.com/view/hulk-smash-incredible-mark-ruffalo-gif-23752989

[solemn bough]

wonder if the same happens when you get the artifact visions

[glacial arrow]

No, they were normal until the temple.

[solemn bough]

i guess at this point ill drop the idea that the players entry into ng+ correlates with the touching of the artifact and chalk it up to gameplay. it's ng+ so you start at the start

[glacial arrow]

After gaining your first power, that's when the scanners show that your bodily functions have all gone far out-of-range for a 'human'

[glacial arrow]

Aye, picking up where the 'tutorial' leaves off.

A beginner area to learn how to move, then a ship zone to learn space combat, then a ground zone to pick up the ground combat.

You NG+ right after all that.

[solemn bough]

well as far as other starborn, it cant just be completely random. there must be some rhyme or reason to where and when they appear

[glacial arrow]

Like I said, I think the placement and timing of the PLAYER is all for development reasons

Whereas some of the respawn rules seem different for Starborn in general

[solemn bough]

thats what im thinking about. should we even bother to compile all the little details that we can find in game though or are we wrong to assume it all makes sense if you put everything together

[glacial arrow]

The more details we can find in-game, the better, but we shouldn't assume game mechanics, especially options, are lore.

Such as the toggle for eating, as one example.

[solemn bough]

yeah but i just mean stuff like starborn cora and the fact that the hunter and aquilus exist simultaneously. all that stuff

because its always possible there were simply oversights in the writers room

[glacial arrow]

I'm sure lorewise that there's good reasons for everything, but there could also be various inconsistencies, yes.

The best we can do is just compile all data and create some theories based on that, or lack of it.

[solemn bough]

do you have any thoughts on the "return points" of various starborn characters then?

[glacial arrow]

I can only speculate. If I had to guess, the respawning isn't random.

But that implies there's an order to Unity behind the seeming chaos, and we have zero details.

[torn zodiac]

I've been working under the theory that the "return point" is the orbit nearest to where you first touched/were changed by an artifact

the first moment where you were Starborn, at least molecularly

[glacial arrow]

We've considered that, but it doesn't explain the timing, particularly in a universe with multiple Starborn You's who all appeared at different times.

[solemn bough]

i doubt its chaos. the existence of the creators implies that there is some order to the unity imo

[glacial arrow]

I said SEEMING chaos.

[keen acorn]

They might be planning a DLC (Future) to more explain Starborn.

[glacial arrow]

You're talking about Bethesda here, so good luck.

[keen acorn]

They estimate one DLC a year. Drop in's as updates sprinkled in.

[glacial arrow]

Suuuure they do. Yeah, I'm absolutely convinced Bethesda's gonna be the next Larian Studios or Hello Games

[solemn bough]

yeah people always misunderstand me when i say i want to know more. i dont need to know the bathroom habits of the creators, just a liiiiittle bit more info on other starborn and stuff

they can leave plenty to mystery while still throwing us some scraps

[keen acorn]

Maybe they add a readable book somewhere. Would be a nice hunt. Even left by the pilgrim beyond what we already have.

[solemn bough]

i mean we're definitely getting one dlc in a few months and then one more probably next fall, after that though i dunno

[leaden gale]

So like. Starborn suffer a weak name already. Like, it feels like they were just throwing darts at the board and accidentally hit the Skyrim board instead.

So I'm afraid of what they might release in the future not being actually compelling. Right now there are some good theories, crucible, the serpent, even suggesting starborn have been appearing in the ancient past in artwork. But if they cement something and it's the same level as the starborn name...

[solemn bough]

oh yeah, i forgot about that. doesnt the pilgrims journal show that he traveled throughout human history?

[keen acorn]

The time period is long but we do not have dates.

[solemn bough]

there were various drawings in it where you could pinpoint the time period

[glacial arrow]

Keeper Aquilus is probably what I suspect may be the oldest and second or third-most powerful of the other Starborn (first being the Hunter as the strongest, with Emissary a close second).

[solemn bough]

what makes you think the hunter is the older one?

[glacial arrow]

Because the Emissary arose as a result of the Hunter, and Hunter kept gathering after Aquilus stopped.

So in terms of age, it's probably Aquilus-Hunter-Emissary, and power-wise, probably Hunter-Emissary-Aquilus

[solemn bough]

oh yeah, what's your take on the hunter as he relates to the pilgrim/keeper? is the hunter we know the same hunter that eventually goes on the pilgrims journey or is he rather a version of the hunter who just never went through that?

[glacial arrow]

The Hunter we knew is Aquilus, but he isn't always Aquilus

Emissary is nearly always someone from Constellation, and never you.

[keen acorn]

Jinan is not the oldest. But he did see an entity during space flight. Indicating somehow he touched this Unity(never saying that for now). I wonder how it will play into the new DLC.

[solemn bough]

what im asking is at some point in the life of what i'll call "original hunter" he became the pilgrim. so has the hunter we know already passed that point or is he yet to cross it?

[glacial arrow]

There's no way of knowing that.

Actually, hold on...

[solemn bough]

if he's yet to cross, that would mean aquilus is likely much much older than him

[glacial arrow]

I had corrected it to Aquilus being oldest, yes

[solemn bough]

but they could also be the same age, assuming the hunter we know is just a hunter who never underwent the personal journey to become the pilgrim

[glacial arrow]

Actually, I thought of something just now. The Hunter has to be younger, as he's only beginning to feel his age.

It was when he began feeling his age that the Pilgrim decided to settle down.

[solemn bough]

he says if you talk him down at the end of the story "it's been a while since i felt this old"

[keen acorn]

I often wonder if Aquilus is really the Pilgrim. We never get to ask him.

[glacial arrow]

He is, in the original universe. You can even accuse him of formerly being the Hunter and he agrees.

[solemn bough]

he is, 100%

[glacial arrow]

More, the Hunter even asks you to kill his other self.

You can tell Aquilus to flee or just whack him.

[glacial arrow]

Hmm. I wonder. If I had to take a wild stab in the dark, I'd almost be inclined to say that perhaps it's being convinced to stand down by [a version of the] player that helps Hunter become Pilgrim, even if only in some small way.

Of course, this would lead to a seeming paradox where Keeper Aquilus is concerned in your universe, but that's nothing strange with Starborn and the Unity since cross-time/space shenanigans occur all the time.

In all of Hunter's previous universes, you didn't survive a single time, and he kept being the Hunter. But we know that at some point the Hunter stops his hunt and becomes the Pilgrim after starting to question his path. If you convince the Hunter to stand down, he makes mention that it's been a looong time since he ever felt that old before he gives up on the Unity.

[solemn bough]

i doubt it. it would probably be mentioned in the pilgrim's journal if that were the case. instead, iirc, it describes a slow transition where his hunter self slowly gives way to humanity

standing down at the end of the main quest might lead him to a similar place but i dont think its meant to be the same journey

[glacial arrow]

I doubt it was any single event that led to it (even you convincing him), but it may have begun his path

[solemn bough]

it would be hugely significant, and aquilus would probably have words about it too which i think is what you meant above

aquilus would probably want to thank you for setting him on the path. you'd be a very important figure to him

i mean it would have been a different you but still

[glacial arrow]

That depends how big a part your role actually played, but I see what you mean. It was just a stab in the void at a thought, that's all.

[solemn bough]

if it got the whole ball rolling id say thats a huge part. not trying to poopoo on your ideas or anything, just giving my opinion

actually i think that same thought came up in a conversation here a few days ago

[glacial arrow]

You make good points, I was throwing ideas at the wall seeing what'd stick

[solemn bough]

that's all we can really do anyhow

but to me it would be a disservice to each other to not put each others ideas through the rigors of facts and logic

[glacial arrow]

You know, it occurs to me that Starborn most likely can produce children, as part and parcel of blending in among humans.

[solemn bough]

eh. not having kids is easily explainable, way less so then explaining to someone why they've never seen you eat food or use the restroom

[glacial arrow]

Well, as we already covered, we know Starborn can eat. And they certainly have at least some if not all organs, or close enough approximations.

Becoming a burst of dying stars on death is waaay different from a human becoming a corpse, though.

[solemn bough]

i know im just saying giving them the ability to reproduce just to blend in is kinda unnecessary, and i imagine it would be a lot harder to engineer starborn to be fertile than it would be to give them the ability to simulate eating

[glacial arrow]

I hear what you're saying, but remember that they're already being engineered to generate solar radiation, gravitational anomalies, BEND TIME AND SPACE, bring back the dead.....

[solemn bough]

that might just be a byproduct of the nature of being starborn and not something that was given by the creators intentionally

[glacial arrow]

All of which are most likely way more radical than doing something their original body could handle.

[solemn bough]

but also if they wanted starborn to blend in, why not remove that radiation that would make them stick out?

[glacial arrow]

It doesn't particularly make them stick out, as it gets confused for normal space radiation.

"Get your kicks flying too close to stars, huh?"

Closer than you realize.

[solemn bough]

well its not like they're gonna say "what are you, some kind of dimension-hopping space wizard? haha just kidding, off you go"

their mind goes to the first reasonable explanation they can think of lol

[glacial arrow]

I assume solar radiation is tied to pretty much all of your powers and bodily functions as a Starborn

[solemn bough]

yeah probably. and we have no idea to what extent they can change that stuff either.

[glacial arrow]

I mean, hells, we know Victor met himself in a compressed time gap

He experienced twelve days of time in a significantly shorter period

[solemn bough]

oh no. now we're gonna have to fight lol

[glacial arrow]

You can argue all you want, it was literally right there in the game text.

[solemn bough]

i know what it says, i just dont think thats the correct way to interpret it

[glacial arrow]

Actually, my guess is that Starborn Victor was using Phase Time at an advanced level.

[solemn bough]

i dont think that there ever was a starborn victor

i think what or whoever he spoke to was more similar to the entity you speak to in the unity at the end of the game. the one that has your appearance, but is not actually a starborn you

[glacial arrow]

And how precisely did he meet this entity, hmmmmmm?

Out of ALL the artifacts, not a single one showed a person. So how did he run into somebody like that in the universe?

Also, you're completely missing my point that we know Unity/Starborn can do awful things to space-time. The energy involved must be massive.

[solemn bough]

i think this entity has the ability to contact people as it wills through various interactions with the artifacts and their derived power. it may choose to reveal itself at these various points or it may not

like how jinan va'ruun experienced a vision where he was spoken to during a grav jump

he didn't even need to be in direct contact with an artifact for that to happen

[glacial arrow]

My guess there would be that the blithering dolt had the Armillary, met the Unity, and turned back, made it a damn religion in his madness instead of, or BEFORE, becoming Starborn

[solemn bough]

victor aiza found an artifact in a cave, touched it, and experienced visions and lost time. so far thats identical to what happens to the player at the story's outset. the only addition is that some entity contacted him during this vision

[glacial arrow]

Also, we're only told that happened. It's not necessarily what actually happened.

And keep in mind you're talking about a blithering madman who worshipped a SNAKE

[solemn bough]

also, how would victor survive long enough in his original timeline in order to enter the unity? and why do we find his dead body in our own universe every single time?

how would his starborn self have inserted himself into his consciousness rather than having to contact him physically, like it seems every other starborn must do?

[solemn bough]

i dont think its a coincidence that his vision occurred during a grav jump. the ability to grav jump is derived from the power of the artifacts

[glacial arrow]

Again, the Victor / Jinan stuff is off the topic. My point was that massive amounts of energy are almost definitely involved to bend physics enough to do stuff like Starborn can do, and their body being effectively a solar reactor is reasonable.

Actually, that might be the best way to look at it - to support their growing abilities, their bodies needed a more efficient power source - one all-natural, mastered by the universe.

[solemn bough]

oh yeah i'm not gonna argue with any of that

[glacial arrow]

That may or may not also have to do with why they die of 'old age' if they stop passing through Unity.

Perhaps their power isn't infinite, and returning to the Unity is necessary as a form of recharge.

Even stars fade away in time, after all.

[solemn bough]

makes sense to me. explains why hunter is so powerful and aquilus is so weak by contrast

and also why the pilgrim thinks he'll die if he stays long enough

although you have to wonder how he even knows that. is it something he can just feel from within? or does he have knowledge of other starborn who died of old age?

[glacial arrow]

The Unity You even tells you that, when you describe it as death. Like an exploding star, the unique part that belongs to that universe becomes as a supernova across all the Settled Systems.

And your awareness will simply wake up in another universe.

[solemn bough]

thats a little piece of lore i like to ignore lol. i find that whole idea to be very silly

[glacial arrow]

Silly? I think you underestimate the Unity. Consider the effects a singular soul can have on the Settled Systems.

Now consider how many Starborn there might be, and the compounded effects from all of them we're never told about.

In a real sense, what keeps everything spinning may well be what's left behind on jumps through the Unity.

Dying stars becoming new lights in the sky, as each passing sets the Systems aflame with exploding essence.

[solemn bough]

yeah, through their actions though. not because they were a good person so their magical good guy energy spreads throughout the universe and makes everyone want to be a good guy. and how does that work in terms of who goes through the unity? we apparently can take the four main companions with us into the unity. does it just... average out our personalities?

[glacial arrow]

Consider it like the Force itself: an innumerable multitude of voices, so many that they drown into a whole. Singling out any specific voice is near-impossible. All the Unity shares is what your unique voice gave the chorus, but that impact is just one among countless others.

Akin to countless colored streams of water blending into a large pool, the colors become virtually one in time.

But it's that constant influx and movement that keeps it all from stagnating.

The Unity's role is probably akin to a pump circulating all that, if we're going to get mundane here.

As for Starborn - gaining powers and letting them redo decisions is a good motivator to keep them jumping so the process continues, no?

[solemn bough]

so then what affect does that have? the player is told if they enter the unity as a married person then it causes the inhabitants of that universe to become predisposed to love and marriage

if a single guy and a married guy both become starborn, does that just cancel out? lol

[glacial arrow]

Aye, but all you're given is what you brought to the galaxy. You have no idea if anyone else cancelled that out with their own essence.

So ultimately, you may have changed nothing, the Unity just says what you brought to the table, not how it was affected by others.

[solemn bough]

you would just never have any discernible change then unless one guy entered the unity and then somehow destroyed the artifacts behind him

which makes the whole idea feel utterly pointless

[glacial arrow]

Basically. You're ultimately just one of literally infinite people, after all.

But again, look at the whole 'pump' thing. It's all designed to keep you engaged, keep you jumping.

[solemn bough]

exactly. so what is the point of that idea narratively speaking?

[glacial arrow]

So it rewards you with what your actions have brought to the chorus (even if ultimately futile), a new chance for more power, more time, more fixing old mistakes...

It's part of the reward system for helping keep it all running, I think.

It could also be so you can see what kind of impact you had, perhaps, to help your decisions next time.

[solemn bough]

it also isnt really delved into enough. the hunter and emissary dont really bring it up iirc

or maybe i just dont remember

[glacial arrow]

None of the Starborn are willing to discuss what occurs in the Unity beyond becoming Starborn. I think it's probably because it's a personal and unique experience for every individual.

[solemn bough]

i just mean the idea of them changing the universes they leave behind

[glacial arrow]

Well, you say changing, but again, if everyone who passes through changes the universe, any individual's impact will be minimal.

[solemn bough]

depending on how many people pass through

but im pretty sure they hint that others can enter the unity once you've gone, so the whole concept might as well not exist at all

[glacial arrow]

I'm sorry, are you complaining that you're not The Chosen One? Because that's what I'm hearing.

[solemn bough]

no im complaining that this whole thing is treated like a big deal when it actually doesnt matter at all

[glacial arrow]

Relax, it's also an in-game method to do Bethesda's beloved 'afterstory' stuff.

[solemn bough]

"the essence of you will spread throughout the universe, influencing the people in it. and also the essence of everyone else who passes through will undo that influence. so basically we dont know why we even put it in"

[glacial arrow]

Like how you can find out what happened to folks after the game ends in any Fallout game

Whether they undo it or not depends on their own decisions

[solemn bough]

they still have that though, just the things that happen as a result of the players actions direct or indirect. we see what becomes of the pirates, ron hope, etc

that has nothing to do with this magical essence spreading concept

[glacial arrow]

It could also just be that the Unity is telling you all that so you're more likely to LITERALLY KILL YOURSELF

Because that's what stepping into the Unity is, after all. The death of the person you were.

As I've said, Space Isekai Simulator

[solemn bough]

i dont even wanna get into what the unity wants lol

what are we to them? are we zoo animals? soldiers in an army? action figures in a sandbox?

[glacial arrow]

As I said, it's primary function appears to be to motivate people to pass through it as many times as possible. So it could be a cosmic filter pump of sorts keeping the pool clean and flowing.

[solemn bough]

doesnt it give equal attention to the idea of NOT going through though?

if it really wanted the player to go through, its not trying that hard to be convincing

[glacial arrow]

It does.... but honestly, there's no real upside to going back unless you want to change something first.

Which may well play a part in why it shows the impact you've had.

[solemn bough]

retaining your full humanity would be one big upside

[glacial arrow]

If we're talking about Unity's function and why's, perhaps.... perhaps those who've accomplished more, have a bigger effect on its workings.

So it motivates you to do great things, then return and pass through?

That would seem to be the case. It shows the impact you've had, which shows you that you could potentially do even more and return at any time.

If it's basically a giant filter pump, that'd make perfect sense.

[solemn bough]

it seems very unbiased to me. "here's what you did, here's what happens if you go through, here's what happens if you dont. up to you"

[glacial arrow]

Powers, immortality, knowledge, and the ability to redo are effectively the rewards.

The Unity is simply too tempting to pass up, is the thing. It doesn't need to be persuasive, just look at the countless Starborn.

Look at how the factions act with even a glimpse of its power and promise.

On a related note, you're probably leaving wartorn Systems behind you after it all goes public.

Because you can bet your ass the faction governments want it BAD.

[solemn bough]

not like it would do much for them

but yeah that wouldnt change them wanting it

[glacial arrow]

Not to use for their factions. For themselves.

Governments are chock-full of corrupt meatsacks.

And the Unity is basically a promise of infinite ...everything, really, except for wealth. But a Starborn knows how to acquire funds.

And more, has the power to do so without any real effort or danger.

[solemn bough]

yeah its a tempting offer for anyone. but to act as a government trying to obtain that power you would still need some pretext for wanting to obtain it

[glacial arrow]

Because power-hungry maniacs haven't been making pretexts for war for thousands of years?

And that was all without the bait of literal immortality and superpowers, mind you.

[solemn bough]

its easier when the thing you want to do actually benefits your nation and people as a whole

[glacial arrow]

It never needed to be. It all depends on how you sell it.... or on how you manipulate.

The most common tried-and-true tactic being to make the masses feel afraid, so they'll support policies that are against their own interests.

[solemn bough]

yeah all they have to do is say that collecting the artifacts will let them create some powerful weapon or something

and we definitely dont want the other guys getting their hands on it

[glacial arrow]

Anyway, I just wanted the idea out there that maybe the Unity basically is just a support function of the cosmos.

With what's effectively a reward system for its repeated usage.

[solemn bough]

to what end? just make things nicer for everyone in general?

[glacial arrow]

Who knows? Hells, it could also just be a cosmic gameshow for the Creators. It could even be both at once!

Like some cosmic, deadly version of Wipeout

As I said, I was just hucking ideas around, and it feels like I might be onto something with the 'support system' idea.

[solemn bough]

my favorite i've heard so far is the idea that it's a big fence to keep us confined to the small area of the galaxy that we inhabit

kinda curious that all 24 artifacts and temples are distributed through such a small area of the wider galaxy let alone universe

i dont think that one plays out though especially if the victor aiza vision was actually the unity engineering the earths destruction

thats another thing about the whole victor aiza thing too, to circle back. if it was a starborn aiza, why wait for him to discover the artifact organically? why not go back even further and tell him where to find it?

btw this is now me and echo's DM. everyone else keep out /jklol

but i've also considered stuff like the unity is turning us into superpowered and nigh indestructible warriors to serve as soldiers in some creation-spanning conflict. that seems a bit too ambitious tho

[obsidian glade]

Maybe it’s just leftover tech from an elder race that traveled thru the multiverse. There’s really no great benefit if you just keep living the same Groundhog Day over and over every time you go thru.

Unless your trying for that perfect play thru on that brief window of your life that gets reset

[solemn bough]

one thing we know is they must still be around in some capacity since the unity you mentions the possibility of meeting them

the creators i mean

[glacial arrow]

Wha... how did you malfunction into... ugh. Time-space shenanigans utterly ABOUND everything to do with the Unity. The Creators could be COSMIC DUST for eons by now, and we could still meet them due to Unity hurling us through time and space.

In fact, given the INFINITY of universes, it's a GUARANTEE we've met them at some point.

[surreal yew]

In an infinite universe, not only are all things possible but all things must occur.

[solemn bough]

yeah i thought that was covered under "still around". i didnt literally mean they exist physically in our universe

[glacial arrow]

Oh. My bad.

[solemn bough]

not us, but another version of us. its made very clear by the game that other yous are not really you

[glacial arrow]

They are, but they're a different aspect of you. A different potential you.

They're what you could have been, just as you are what they could have been.

Just different possibilities.

[solemn bough]

they could also exist outside of the infinite possibilites, if they come from beyond our reality

[glacial arrow]

outside literally infinite

[solemn bough]

if they created the multiverse they wouldnt necessarily be part of it. the whole thing could be a simulation for all we know

[glacial arrow]

Oh, you mean the CREATORS

[solemn bough]

who did you think we were talking about

[glacial arrow]

I thought you were still on Other Yous, so I got very confused.

[surreal yew]

Or... a computer game

We're NPC's in the Creator's favorite game 😄

[glacial arrow]

The game limits it to level X, but lorewise, the Starborn powers just scale pretty much indefinitely according to Hunter and Emissary.

And given there's an infinite number of ways to live, you could just jump forever living different ways.

Take up some non-material hobbies, perhaps!

[solemn bough]

youd think that would make it hard for them to lose a fight against you lol

[glacial arrow]

Maybe you forgot to change the game difficulty

[solemn bough]

to be fair, they didnt have extreme yet back when i beat it

[glacial arrow]

Also, you can turn down your own damage, too

[solemn bough]

tru

[glacial arrow]

Also, to be fair, Bethesda didn't make them fight as well as they could have

Probably some sort of mercy on players, since this isn't Dark Souls

[solemn bough]

kind of a bad move to hint that they're more powerful than you could ever be and you can still kill them easily

[glacial arrow]

A true Starborn would be a master of all martial arts, for instance. Which means they'd melee stunlock you forever.

[solemn bough]

well no, not necessarily

[glacial arrow]

Between Martial Arts and Neurostrikes, I can guarantee you can absolutely wreck shop with stunlocks

Hells, I did it to the Terrormorphs

[solemn bough]

i just use sunless space

[glacial arrow]

I wanted to see if it could be done. Without Starborn cheats.

And yes, if those worked the way they do for the player, Hunter and Emissary could just deadlock you to death.

Hells, if GRAV WELL worked for them like it does for the player, they'd just insta-gib you

because you'd be stuck in ragdoll hell while they fill you full of holes taking %-based HP damage

[solemn bough]

yeah either way though it creates a disconnect

[glacial arrow]

Welcome to game balance hell every Bethesda game since OG TES.

At least in this one we can't craft an infinitely strong weapon using alch-enchant exploits

[solemn bough]

could be looked at as a writing issue too. if you knew you could only make your final boss so strong, then dont write them to be infinitely stronger than that. its just silly

[glacial arrow]

I'm told maxing out all your Starborn powers is basically Godmode

[solemn bough]

i know its a typical problem its just very egregious here

[solemn bough]

exactly. and you're limited in that. the game tells you hunter is much stronger than you are in that regard, but that doesnt bare out

[glacial arrow]

Well, about that....

....they say they've been through thousands of universes, but I think they might be referring to themselves in the plural.

So, not just the Hunter you see, but a lot of him.

[solemn bough]

but why would they say that

[glacial arrow]

Well, they've obviously met themselves before, a LOT, and shared info. We know that from what they say and how they talk about their roles.

[solemn bough]

your other selves are distinct. is the hunter including aquilus when he discusses his exploits?

[glacial arrow]

Distinct, but also alike. After all, they're just a step or three away from being you.

And if a bunch of Hunters got together, they could definitely decide to form a cosmic SMITE THE EMISSARY group

[solemn bough]

still. if i had a clone of myself, i wouldnt be talking about them when i say "i"

nor if i met a an alternate universe version of myself

[glacial arrow]

The Emissary does it, too, by the way. "Until...we meet again..." hrk, blaaargh, space dust

I've met other Starborn who talk about their multiple selves as being one, or themselves being part of a larger one.

"We've done this before, you and I!" hrk, blaaargh, space dust

[solemn bough]

but does that starborn mean another version of them? or themselves in a previous universe?

[glacial arrow]

I mean, we keep running into versions of ourselves, too, so it's not like it's uncommon

[solemn bough]

like i could go up to the hunter and say we've met before and i wouldn't be talking about one of my other starborn selves, i'd be talking about myself

[glacial arrow]

I can guarantee the answer is 'both'. Know why? INFINITE UNIVERSES.

In an infinity of universes, all that can happen, will happen.

[obsidian glade]

But with the whole multiverse to move thru including infinite timelines, being stuck in a minuscule moment of time forever just doesn’t make sense

[solemn bough]

well once we get here we can say anything lol. i can say the hunter is a total sweetheart and bakes the best cookies

[glacial arrow]

I put that down to game development. Look at the effort it took to create this ONE period in time.

[solemn bough]

not exactly a useful way to frame things

[glacial arrow]

And there's a version of him that does, somewhere out there. An infinity of them, even.

[solemn bough]

i know. but how can we discuss anything when any given assertion is both true and false?

[glacial arrow]

Welcome to Starborn. All has happened, all will happen. Might as well just enjoy the ride!

[solemn bough]

alright guys you can delete the lore channel now, it's all pointless

everything has happened and not happened lol

[glacial arrow]

In another universe, you didn't fall into despair In this one, I laugh at thee.

[obsidian glade]

Khan!!!!!

[glacial arrow]

What are you smoking? The hells was that about?

[obsidian glade]

Star trek

[solemn bough]

lol

[broken flower]

I do a lot of trekking in Starfield

[solemn bough]

not for much longer if the leaks are to be believed

[glacial arrow]

We know that there's huge neurological changes on the way to becoming Starborn. Perhaps over time, many of them begin to take a more cosmic perspective on the self and what it means to be a part of a larger whole of themselves.

[solemn bough]

except in the universe where there isn't

[glacial arrow]

Of course.

We see this mostly in the older Starborn though, in my experience.

The youngest ones don't normally seem to act like their many selves are themself.

[leaden gale]

Every time you enter the unity, you lose a piece of yourself.

[glacial arrow]

And every time you're reborn, you build up a new part of yourself in the new universe to feed to the Unity in time.

Starborn is just a baseline to build a new self off of, a new aspect of you.

You don't have to, of course. You could just stay Starborn, live Starborn, die Starborn. Or you could set it aside, live for a while as whoever and whatever you want before taking back up the path to the Unity and your next life.

There's nothing inherently wrong with either path. You can even do both.

[solemn bough]

https://imgur.com/a/8vpS12A

Clay Deitrich was my first Official trophy hunt.

Who shall be next and find themselves eventually in my trophy room

[glacial arrow]

How's that lore?

[solemn bough]

He is a character in the game, and now he is a dead character in the game... Lore accurate that my character rips his skull from the body and mounts it as a trophy

[glacial arrow]

In another universe, it is lore that he used your character's skull as a goblet.

[leaden gale]

Each time you enter the unity, you spawn a ton of starborn clones. It isn't one for one. But yes, each one can grow into something new.

[glacial arrow]

I'm gonna X that unless you provide some evidence.

[solemn bough]

Perhaps. that means that version of my character just sucked.

But here... He died and I won in the words of the Apex Predator Mercenary group, I'll kill you I'm better, you kill me your better.

[leaden gale]

Every single universe has an aquilus I'm gonna call him old man cause I typo his name on phone.

Not only that but our universe has had four of them. Each one was dead certain that a new one would come to challenge his jinan varuun. This happens in every universe. @glacial arrow

[glacial arrow]

That's not possible. In infinite universes, all that can happen must happen. Therefore, there's universes where this didn't happen.

[leaden gale]

Why do you think there are infinite universes? The emissary can only be four specific people. The hunter is only one specific man.

[glacial arrow]

Oh, you were trolling. Never mind, not dignifying that.

[leaden gale]

I'm not trolling and I got muted for accusing someone of that, so maybe don't be rude.

[glacial arrow]

Uh huh, so you're just gonna ignore that it's pointed out ad infinitum that there are literally infinite universes.

[leaden gale]

I've got an image on my PC that clearly explains tree root theory. I'll post it when I get home.

Tldr: there were not always multiverses. Something happened to cause Universe Prime to branch out.

Characters are fallible. We're repeatedly shown evidence that the universes aren't infinite.

What's the Bethesda game trope? Unreliable narrator?

[glacial arrow]

Of course they're not mechanically infinite, that'd be too much game development.

Lorewise, it's literally infinite.

[leaden gale]

I don't even mean that. You guys see the game mechanic and think it can't be part of the story. Why?

It would've taken no effort to make the annoying fan the emissary or the hunter, or even the merchant.

You too, for that matterm

[glacial arrow]

Welcome to Bethesda, home of the folks who made TES and Fallout, which suffered similar fates.

[leaden gale]

It seems very intentional that the emissary is only one of four people. That the hunter is only one man. That th old man is in every universe. Why couldn't Mateo have taken his spot, presuming Mateo doesn't eventually become the hunter to begin with?

Gotta go back to work. Have fun, friends.

[glacial arrow]

Not saying you don't make good points, but given we're dealing with Bethesda, I just don't think it got fully fleshed out.

It could even be a bit of both!

[solemn bough]

not to mention its cheaper to have one person voice a role than it is to have infinite people voice it

[glacial arrow]

Hells, we might even find out more in DLC.

Maybe. If Bethesda actually does what they said.

[leaden gale]

It's cheaper to have one emissary too. It's cheaper not to have the PC voiced at all.

[solemn bough]

having one character that can only be one of four different other characters isnt too big of a deal. having more than one of those might be a little tricky to deal with

the pc and the four main companions though are the focus of the story so those four are the ones that can become the emissary. the player being the emissary would change the narrative too much

maybe if they had more time and resources they could have had the other four constellation members have their own quests and be potential emissaries too

the emissary as an identity is defined by having been a member of constellation as well, so it wouldnt work to have someone else be the emissary like the adoring fan or whoever

[surreal yew]

I'd have liked the Starborn Cora to have been more involved.

[solemn bough]

like in the main story?

[leaden gale]

You can claim price problems all day but unless you have insider knowledge, you're just being contrary without evidence.

[surreal yew]

In one of my NG+ runs she was waiting for me in the lodge with some spacers, seeking revenge for her dad's death. I'd never lost Sam though so I had a dialogue option to say that. She was frustrated that she'd come to the wrong universe.

Cora was Starborn in that Universe, with Starborn armor.

[obsidian glade]

thats a wild one

[surreal yew]

Never saw her again after the lodge though. I'd have liked that possibility to have been expanded on.

[solemn bough]

i mean to me its just like asking why the other four members of constellation arent available as companions or asking why more companions arent romanceable

[solemn bough]

its funny how some of the biggest lore implications come from the ng+ alternate lodges

[glacial arrow]

More importantly, she was an adult.... in the same time period her human selves were still children.

[obsidian glade]

i dont think children should go thru the unity, like how child vampires are verboten in the vampire books

wouldn't that potentially turn the child into a hunter or killer?

[solemn bough]

killing is already fully endorsed by constellation so cora would probably learn to do that eventually anyway

it is pretty messed up for sam to just abandon her though

[glacial arrow]

I'm sorry, what?

Sam never abandons Cora. What are you even ON about?

[solemn bough]

[glacial arrow]

If you're talking about Cora going through the Unity, the ONLY reason he 'allows' her to go with everyone, EVEN IF HE KNOWS, is because there's no one who can stop her from doing it anyway.

[solemn bough]

relax

also i'm talking about him going

[glacial arrow]

Yeah, he only lets her come along because she'd just sneak aboard. Also, Unity You tells you it even if you leave everyone behind, that the Armillary doesn't care and drags them all along.

You literally can't stop them from coming along unless they're dead

[solemn bough]

wait, everyone in the universe becomes starborn?

[glacial arrow]

No, the members of Constellation who wanted to become Starborn. Cora included.

All of them get basically sucked into the Unity even if you leave them.

[solemn bough]

they definitely need to be aboard the ship, that makes no sense

[glacial arrow]

No, they don't. None of them do. You can shove them all off the ship, make the jump, and they'll all become Starborn anyway.

[solemn bough]

how do you know that?

[glacial arrow]

Because I've done so and it says folks I've left behind became Starborn.

So clearly they got picked up by the Armillary and/or Unity

[solemn bough]

i'd need to verify that, doesn't sound familiar

[glacial arrow]

For instance, if you have a lover, and you leave them, they still become Starborn. As one example.

Also, if you leave the path to Unity open behind you by defeating the Hunter and Emissary, basically anyone can eventually be Starborn if they want to, once Constellation goes public with the research.

[solemn bough]

yeah but you're still leaving them behind if you choose to go. they can't follow you to the same place

[glacial arrow]

They can't follow you to the same place even if they're on the ship with you.

[solemn bough]

i know

[glacial arrow]

Unless the Unity decides to group certain folks together, of course.

Anyway, basically, from what I can tell, since Constellation 'won' the fight for the Artifacts, they all have the 'right' to choose, so Unity doesn't care if you don't bring them, because it'll sort it out itself.

[solemn bough]

is that only if you play the full main quest?

[glacial arrow]

No, since they're actively involved in the Starborn quest, too.

The Unity's got some logic and rules to it, apparently, though they're largely undefined except by what we can witness.

[solemn bough]

i'm gonna have to go over that dialogue tree because i dont remember that implication at all

[glacial arrow]

Even if I'm wrong, Sam still never makes the choice to abandon Cora. Rather, it's Cora who abandons everyone else, because she chooses to go regardless of anything else even if it means being separated.

[surreal yew]

Actually, Starborn Cora is orphaned.

[glacial arrow]

And Cora being Cora, Sam knows better than to try to stop her, on account of her being smarter than the rest of Constellation combined and twice as stubborn.

[surreal yew]

At least, the one we meet is.

[glacial arrow]

We mean human child Cora.

[surreal yew]

But yeah, if you talk to all the Constellation members after assembling the Armillary, they're all talking about going through the Unity. Including Cora. And Sam expresses doubt that he could stop her if he tried.

[solemn bough]

he can stop her from seeing her grandpa without much trouble

[glacial arrow]

He couldn't even stop her from having regular chats with mom

Anyway, Sam wants to go as well, and better everyone goes together, even if they get split up, than go alone one by one.

So the whole gang gets together and all six make the jump

[obsidian glade]

i'm in a NG+ where no one entered the unity, they all retired

Sarah is a plant

[glacial arrow]

Wait, those are two different universes

[obsidian glade]

multiverse baby

[surreal yew]

There's another where the Hunter killed them all.

[glacial arrow]

Most of the alternate universes suck in one way or another.

Walter buys Constellation in one of them and sells Artifacts 100k each

[obsidian glade]

Cora grows up addicted to Aurora and tends bar at Madame Sauvage's in that one

[glacial arrow]

That I didn't know.

[surreal yew]

News to me as well. I have to admit I don't spend a lot of time exploring alternate universes, I'm on NG+7 now and just running the main quest after doing a lot of side quests in the initial playthrough.

Although I've begun to question the utility of going for NG+10. The armor is meh, as is the ship.

[glacial arrow]

Starborn Powers X has been described to me as 'Godlike'

Also, I'm a fan of the robe.

[surreal yew]

I've heard. But I play a scifi space explorer, not a mage 🙂

[solemn bough]

definitely not godlike but pretty gud

the damage dealing ones are piss poor even at X

[glacial arrow]

Welcome to Bethesda

[astral walrus]

Really???

[astral walrus]

Except supernova still recharges slow

[leaden gale]

https://i.imgur.com/j3iMLnl.gif
@glacial arrow

The difference in this and true multiverse theory, is that in true multiverse theory, mutliverses are natural occuring. there is one for every possible outcome and occurrence. in true multiverse theory, free will is completely an illusion.

In this there is only one universe that is naturally occuring. Something happens that causes multiple universes to split off.

Like something pretending to be Victor Aiza telling Victor how to create the Grav Drive.

[glacial arrow]

And where precisely is your evidence that there was ever a Prime?

[leaden gale]

Aquilus. Again, he is so certain that another him is going to show up knowing exactly what he knows, to challenge and try to teach Jinan.

He is in every universe. If you believe in true multiverse theory, that can't be true.

[glacial arrow]

Your point? Pretty much everyone else is in every universe, too.

[leaden gale]

Exactly! It's purposeful.

But more importantly, in regards to Aquilus. You can kill him every single time. Him being the Hunter before he becomes the Pilgrim.

Auilus is always there.

[glacial arrow]

Or just Bethesda being Bethesda. Given it's Bethesda, I can't write it off as intentional. That's all I was saying. It's a coin flip. Hells, it could even be a mix of both!

[leaden gale]

Bethesda is the grand daddy of writing multiverse theory. There's no way it isn't intentional.

[glacial arrow]

They're also the grand daddy of plot holes, sooo...

[leaden gale]

They've been writing multiverse theory since Morrowindo.

Yes. They do have plotholes, that's true. But this is their wheelhouse and I think that assuming anything they write isn't well-considered in this regard -- especially when Todd has said this game is his baby -- is perhaps poorly considered.

[glacial arrow]

I'm inclined to take Unity You at their word, considering they're the game's highest expert on the subject, personally.

[leaden gale]

What do they say that you're specifically referencing?

[glacial arrow]

Outside of maybe Aquilus himself.

Largely in regards to an infinite multiverse.

[leaden gale]

You'll have to give me a direct quote. I don't know what you're referencing.

[glacial arrow]

Just that, Unity You mentions an infinite number of universes, or so I recall.

[leaden gale]

or even just give me a video i can watch later.

[glacial arrow]

I am having difficulty finding a video of Unity You

....Okay, did not know you can meet the Hunter at a bar...

Quite the philosophical fellow, too, even when he doesn't mean to be.

[astral walrus]

Or you could go meet Unity You and hear it for yourself...

[faint cave]

I thought Solar Flare was pretty okay. The DOT deals a lot of damage, though it doesn't persist through multiple health bars.

[leaden gale]

I've met Unity 3 or 4 times. whatever tenebris is. and i have kept an ear out specifically for this topic, and i don't remember anything other than "go out into the infinite" but that's just... colorful phrasing.

[leaden gale]

i have a fan theory about who he was before he became the hunter!

[fallen kiln]

I like to think he was Victor Aiza, but that's pure speculation

[leaden gale]

I think he

Actually I just realized my idea for who he is is wrong, if what people in here have told me is correct. I don't remember Hunter ever saying he was alive before they left earth, but if he was he can't be Mateo.

[fallen kiln]

He says his fondest memories are of living on Earth and adds "I'm older than I look". You might have to side with him to get that dialogue though

[broken flower]

He might be very much older than spaceflight

[fallen kiln]

Well, whoever made the drawings at the Pilgrim's Rest was. Either that or they had access to time travel beyoind the basic Unity Groundhog Day effect

[leaden gale]

It might just be that he's seen articles of the past.

After all, he couldn't talk to these ancient people to find out if they were, infact, starborn.

[fallen kiln]

Whoever made the drawings writes in the margins about introducing the orbital mechanics motif into other cultures to see how they respond, and you have illustrations including a couple in Victorian garb and unmistakably, a 17th Century Musketeer.
So that sounds like he was there and actively involved. Whether the Pilgrim was the author is another question, of course.

[broken flower]

If the artifact confers immortality( nanotech?) the Hunter could have lived 1000 years or more before becoming Starborn. it might explain his impatience to get the armillary if he has to keep repeating the loop.

[fallen kiln]

Hmm. OK. So touching the artifact rather than Unity. It's possible.

Although he doesn't talk like a man that's waited thousands of years in between duels with the Emissary. He makes them sound like they're fresh in his memory. I think he's on a much shorter loop than that, although that's just a feeling

[leaden gale]

Doesn't the pilrgrim talk about choosing to die of old age rather than enter the unity in his book? am i misremembering?

[broken flower]

https://tenor.com/view/game-of-thrones-what-dead-may-never-die-gif-18356705

[glacial arrow]

He does, but we don't actually know if Starborn can die of old age. Aquilus has been around for decades, and he looks no different than the Hunter.

He may be trying to die of old age, but how successful it is... we aren't actually aware of.

[broken flower]

Starborn may be able to choose to die

[daring lake]

I just fire my Hornet Nest Coachman in an enclosed space

[broken flower]

Boom shaka laka

[fallen kiln]

I think the thing is that each time you go through Unity, you get reset to the age you were when you first touched the Artifact. So Aquilus may have been around longer than the Hunter, but only if you add all their Unity lives together. In any given universe, I think they'd be the same biological age.

[glacial arrow]

But you're ignoring the fact that Aquilus stopped jumping decades ago.

He's trying to die of old age.

[fallen kiln]

Yeah, but if the Hunter remembers living on Earth before the Fall, then so does Aquilus. So they're both on a 200 year loop or so. Which means Aquilus has plenty of time to give up jumping

[glacial arrow]

I hear what you're saying, but are you trying to suggest they both respawned at the same time?

Because if they didn't, Hunter should be younger than Aquilus at this point, and he's not visibly any different.

[fallen kiln]

Yeah. I think all starborn respawn at the point in time where they first touched an Artifact. I suppose that might be modifiable by more experienced Starborn, but from the evidence we have, it's always the same time. Of course it's a sample size of one, so ...

[glacial arrow]

That can't be right, and I can prove it.

[fallen kiln]

Go on then 🙂

[glacial arrow]

There's a universe full of Starborn You. Yet you respawn alone, and they all spawned before you did, individually, at different timings.

They're not 'new' there, either. They're well-established and lived there for a while.

[fallen kiln]

You're assuming that because one You turns up with CF allegiance, he's already joined the Fleet?

How do you know they're established?

[glacial arrow]

Because the one who's been there the longest, Constellation You, basically mentions that some time has passed between each of them showing up.

So by the time you get there, it's already been a good while - we don't know how long, exactly, but long enough that it wasn't like we all streamed in the door.

[fallen kiln]

I've had that Universe. I never got the impression that they'd been there a long time. Pretty much the reverse. In any event, it's a glitched universe. Something went wrong with the Unity's process and it spawned multiple Yous

Of course, something similar must have once happened with the Hunter, and he and his alt somehow found a way to make that stick.

It's possible that these glitched universes are the Unity testing you, as it does in the Buried Temple. Maybe the Artifacts spending so long there in so many universes has made the lodge into a sort of focal point for the Unity, similar to the Buried Temple if not so strongly bound.

It would explain why, if you leave the lodge and go back, you can see the other Yous teleport in with Starborn glitter effects. They don't live there - the Unity spawns them for your benefit.

[glacial arrow]

I'm not convinced the Unity is glitching, but that's a possibility.

@solemn bough Cora just made a great point as to why she's so insistent on jumping: she's losing something either way, so since she has to choose between staying behind as everyone leaves, or jumping and getting split up from everyone, she's choosing adventure.

Spoken like a true member of Constellation, in my opinion.

[astral walrus]

Isnt the Unity still available to the rest of Constellation, if they did choose to go through? So its always there?

[glacial arrow]

It is, but as she said, she didn't want to sit around while everyone else leaves.

So, since a parting was inevitable whether she stayed or went, she chose the Constellation way and jumped with everyone else.

Regardless of her age or how reckless it might've been, she's a proper member of Constellation with that mindset.

[surreal yew]

This means that child Cora is a Starborn, somewhere in the multiverse...

[astral walrus]

Shes 12 when we first go through the Unity right?

[glacial arrow]

Ahahahahah, I don't think so. Isn't she 8? Oh wait, Sam says something about her maybe living to her 13th birthday, so maybe.

I remember exactly how I was when I was 12. 12 year old me would've absolutely jumped, and then wrecked face with superpowers.

[astral walrus]

When you do the Freestar quest, ranger armistead inquires about her age. Sam says she's either eleven or twelve

[surreal yew]

And if Starborn don't age... But that contradicts the Lodge version with an adult Cora Starborn

[glacial arrow]

Due to the time period remaining the same, that might mean the Unity aged her up.

Otherwise she wouldn't have had time yet to grow.

Conversely, it might've sent her back even further than us, and she's been waiting around ever since.

[glacial arrow]

According to Aquilus, he thinks Starborn can age and die if they stop jumping, but we don't actually see any proof of that.

[astral walrus]

So how does explain the multiverse theory you were discussing earlier?

[glacial arrow]

I wasn't. Mando is pushing his root theory.

[rigid kiln]

My windows is buggeD?

[astral walrus]

Ah

[glacial arrow]

I'm inclined to take Unity You at their word on the infinite universes.

[rigid kiln]

I can't type in my seach bar thingy or click on anything when I press the windows key thingy

or like search in folders

[glacial arrow]

okay, but that's not Starfield Lore, my dear.

[rigid kiln]

I thought this was general chat gjrejgfrejgre srry!

[astral walrus]

The serpent bugged her search bar

[glacial arrow]

And now the circle is complete

[rigid kiln]

oh there is an update maybe that fixes it well back to general chat sorry for bothering

[astral walrus]

Does it state how old starborn cora is anywhere?

[astral walrus]

No prob

[glacial arrow]

No. Young adult, from how it seems.

I mean, she could be teens and just have grown up quick, too

[surreal yew]

We never even see her face, though I wonder how one of the starborn transparent visor mods would work.

Might be worth some science if I get that universe again.

[glacial arrow]

Btw, turns out brain slugs are totally a Thing in Starfield.

[surreal yew]

My coworkers are in Starfield?!

[glacial arrow]

So there's a derelict ship you can find. The dead chick in it left logs behind of having woken up in an alien swamp covered in alien leeches, then later feeling like there were things trying to burrow into her brain, then about how she can't stop hearing voices in her head as her final log.

Wait a minute.... Keeper Aquilus is missing...

Oh, never mind, for some reason, he's at his desk instead of in his usual talking spot

Woops. Forgot I still had Supernova enabled instead of Personal Atmo and nuked New Atlantis....

[surreal yew]

[astral walrus]

Hopefully they rework the powers soon... Supernova X feels the same as I

[surreal yew]

Personal Atmo basically makes Fitness pointless, it's my most used power.

[solemn bough]

are you saying the fact that sam is leaving her no matter what factors into her decision to go?

[glacial arrow]

That, and he himself says that even if they both remained behind, it'd eat them both alive that they didn't go with everyone else. As well as Cora having earned the right to do so, regardless.

[astral walrus]

Idk about having earned it

She just stayed on the ship, remember?

[surreal yew]

Nonetheless, that's Sam's viewpoint.

[solemn bough]

so ultimately he's the one choosing to go, and she might choose to stay if sam wasn't leaving her

[glacial arrow]

No, because she doesn't want to part from anyone else, either.

[high copper]

There seems to have been a discussion happening here for... 3-4 days

[astral walrus]

Well Sam definitely aint father of the year so...

[glacial arrow]

The only way Cora might stay is if everyone stayed.

Otherwise, she wants to go since they'll become separated either way.

[solemn bough]

"im going because im losing something either way" she loses a bit less if her and sam stay. they might regret it, but they also might not

[glacial arrow]

That's just how they're thinking. I don't care how 'correct' their thinking is, that's their reasons.

[solemn bough]

i mean yeah sarah and barrett and everyone are her friends but sam is her father

and she is a child

[surreal yew]

You're trying to convince us, but we didn't make the decision

[solemn bough]

i'm trying to convince you sam is a bad dad

[glacial arrow]

Child or not, Sam is 100% convinced if Constellation doesn't pull the trigger that Cora will do it herself even if she has to take the ship for a joyride.

Or that Cora will otherwise find a way to sneak on board.

[solemn bough]

and how does she put the armillary together after the PC has left the universe

[glacial arrow]

Same way everyone would in PC's absence?

[solemn bough]

which is completely unknown to us

[glacial arrow]

The Unity makes it abundantly clear that the path to Unity is open to everyone if you stop the Hunter and Emissary.

[solemn bough]

right, but we don't know what that literally means

it could involve collecting all the artifacts again for all we know

[glacial arrow]

I figure they're like Dragon Balls

[solemn bough]

also what about starborn cora being an adult? might that not suggest it took her a while to enter the unity?

ignoring how the devs never would have let you kill the child version

[glacial arrow]

It could've. There's a lot of ways things could go / could be, since we don't have a lot of hard data.

That's why this channel is kind of a flypaper on the wall we just hurl possible ideas at.

[astral walrus]

The armillary stays in my inventory. She aint going nowhere

[glacial arrow]

Headcanon all you want

Without hard evidence, there's any number of possibilities you can take as 'truth'.

[solemn bough]

oh yeah, and going back to that i think the implication is supposed to be that constellation are always on board your ship when you jump to unity because it doesnt really make much sense otherwise

they seem to talk like they're all coming with you, and if you exit the unity prematurely they're all still there

[glacial arrow]

[solemn bough]

the unity doesnt explicitly say anything about them all going no matter what, it just shows the "new" constellation led by vlad

[glacial arrow]

Also, if you have a lover, they go even if you left them behind.

[astral walrus]

I think that the starborn cora is likely the cora where "you" let Sam die... And she goes to live with her mom. Thats how we see her as a young adult

[solemn bough]

yeah because the game assumes you're taking them on board with you when you make the jump

[glacial arrow]

As I said, there's a lack of data. We can only postulate.

[solemn bough]

otherwise theyd be among the randos who have to "find their own way"

[glacial arrow]

That lack of data may be intentional, as well. Keeping things rather vague leaves room for as much roleplay as you could want.

Well, not giving out a lot of detail is kinda how Bethesda does things to begin with, too.

[solemn bough]

its really quite heavily implied they all come with you though

[astral walrus]

Prove it

[glacial arrow]

Probably, since they'd all be pretty peeved if you tried to leave them behind.

[astral walrus]

"Show me the link"

[solemn bough]

also it says "the path to the unity is left for the people of the settled systems to discover on their own" which sounds like they have a bit of legwork to do to get there rather than being able to just step through after us

[solemn bough]

lol i know you're joking but i would be happy to provide evidence for any hard claim i make

[astral walrus]

Well, heres hoping the add more alt universes that more context and reasoning other than "it just works"

[solemn bough]

i wouldnt mind them going back and changing the andreja one to not have zealots if theyre not meant to actually be zealots

[surreal yew]

Unlikely. Leaving it vague gives them plot armor.

[glacial arrow]

Sweet merciful Unity! Jeez. Try to enter a Temple and a Controller Terrormorph was literally camping the front door.

[astral walrus]

Gravity field > grav wave

[glacial arrow]

Grav Well is a nice option

On top of DoT damage, it keeps the enemy ragdolled for a long while

[solemn bough]

sunless space is the power of choice for terrormorphs

not only does it work great, what's better than freezing solid a vicious heat-loving monster

[astral walrus]

In your opinion.

[glacial arrow]

I don't need powers for Terrormorphs. I just stunlock them to death with unarmed.

Between Neurostrikes and Martial Arts, they just get ragdolled repeatedly.

[solemn bough]

i mean i could just shoot them too but what did i upgrade those powers all the way for if not to use em

[glacial arrow]

We see Starborn using weapons all across the systems, but I suspect that a true Starborn is one that wouldn't need a weapon, having mastered their Powers, their Guardian, and their own body.

[solemn bough]

if only the powers were as good as the weapons

[glacial arrow]

It all depends on how you use them

[solemn bough]

no, the damage dealing ones just dont do much damage

[glacial arrow]

Welcome to Bethesda, what was so surprising, exactly?

[solemn bough]

you tell me lol

[glacial arrow]

They pulled the same crap all through TES, so why are you surprised?

[hard salmon]

I do hope they play around with the lore of the physiology of Starborn in the future. I want to know what's different about them in more detail. All we really know about them now is that they apparently emit some unspecified kind of radiation.

[solemn bough]

i'm not surprised, i'm telling you that they suck because you keep saying a true starborn would only use powers

[glacial arrow]

Using a weapon is certainly the easier choice, aye

[solemn bough]

yeah we were discussing that a bit yesterday. its kind of hard because gameplay departs so much from the lore

[glacial arrow]

But the penultimate Starborn wouldn't need a weapon. It'd be less efficient, but they'd make it work.

[hard salmon]

The particle beam power kind of feels like it's supposed to be a substitute for weapons. It's just not impactful enough to really be useful.

[solemn bough]

i was so excited to use that one at full power only to realize i'd be better off with an eon

[hard salmon]

But they could add a power that is essentially just a bound weapon from TES

[solemn bough]

i mean you can easily deal with groups of enemies using just the grav well/create vacuum combo but thats incredibly inefficient for enemies that are spread apart

[solemn bough]

that would be super cool actually

but yeah buff par beam and solar flare

as of now half the powers feel extremely useful while the other half are next to useless

[hard salmon]

People could have their copyright friendly lightsabers without having to explain the physics because space magic.

[solemn bough]

the one time par beam or solar flare is useful is if you just arrived in ng+ and literally dont have a gun

even then i would rather just steal one before going anywhere with enemies

[astral walrus]

Or decrease the cool down for PB so we can use it more like a hand held launcher

[solemn bough]

yeah something. my starborn mana is such a precious resource in combat i need a reason to actually use those damage powers instead of my weapon

[leaden gale]

Andreja does it if you're married to her, like two years (I think) after you leave. Walk up to her image at the Unity.

[solemn bough]

then they definitely don't get pulled with you

[leaden gale]

I get the impression they refind the artifacts. If you choose neither the Hunter nor Emissary, other people follow you in eventually, too.

[solemn bough]

yeah that we know

[leaden gale]

It's probably to excuse how Andreja always returns if you do. she doesn't want to leave you behind, and only goes once she knows that you have.

[glacial arrow]

Sam does something similar if he's your lover/husband

It says he saw the Unity but returned later to pass through it

It doesn't clarify much on why, perhaps he saw (or didn't see) something in his life he wanted to alter first

[leaden gale]

It's probably just an under the table excuse to let cora grow up before she enters. bethesda saw mandalorian and tried so hard to cram something like that in, but missed all of the emotional beats.

[solemn bough]

yeah but that happens with the other three as well, no?

they're all implied to have left in the unity but they're all still there if you go back

which suggests that they all only go if and when you go

[leaden gale]

that's literally just what i said.

i just didn't say everyone because i haven't romanced everyone. i've only romanced andreja. they all return, presumably, so you don't get screwed by entering but not entering the unity.,

[glacial arrow]

From their dialog, they expected to jump through Unity, and were surprised by suddenly being back in the ship if you leave Unity without passing through.

To me, that speaks to the holder of the Armillary being in control of the process.

You brought them, but they can't actually do it unless you go through.

[solemn bough]

yeah but then you acted like it was something specifically written for sam so he would be around for cora to grow up

[glacial arrow]

However, you going through doesn't force them to go through on the spot.

[solemn bough]

well its YOUR ship the armillary is on too, so naturally you're gonna be the one to engage the grav drive and actually make the jump

[solemn bough]

isnt that what you were saying yesterday though?

[glacial arrow]

No, you going to the Unity pulls them along, far as I can tell. I never said it forces them to yeet themselves into eternity.

It's still their choice if they want to leave after being brought before it.

[solemn bough]

why them then? i was under the impression you were saying it pulled them along if they had the desire to go

[glacial arrow]

At least, that's how it's always looked to me, because if you suddenly change your mind and return to your ship, they're on the ship.

[glacial arrow]

Pulls them to Unity, not through it.

[solemn bough]

right, but why those five people specifically

[glacial arrow]

Because they wanted to make the leap, I presume. We don't know how 'aware' the Artifacts, Temples, and Unity are, or what criteria they use to determine who they interact with.

I assume some level of interaction is necessary, probably by close exposure...

...but the fact that ONLY the ones who wanted to jump are the ones who are dragged to the Unity suggests there's more at work.

[solemn bough]

you're making a lot of assumptions i think. seems to me the simplest explanation is that the game's narrative involves you all going to the unity, so it assumes you're taking the four or five of them with you on the ship when you go

and if you decide not to go, they remain so you can still have them as companions

[glacial arrow]

That's entirely possible: as I said, ideas at a wall. It could be a game mechanic and not lore.

There's no real way to know, but they express surprise that they couldn't make the leap if you turn around and leave Unity.

Which tells me that either ALL of them were taking their time deciding.... or that they literally couldn't step through Unity to become Starborn before you stepped through.

That latter bit might be a game mechanic so they can't leave you without companions, disguised as lore in the form of the one who holds the Armillary and ship.

[solemn bough]

well obviously they couldnt make the leap before you do, you're in possession of the armillary

you're not reborn unless you go through

[glacial arrow]

I don't know where I'm losing you

[solemn bough]

did some messages just go missing or am i crazy

[glacial arrow]

This bit right here, I wasn't talking about going TO the Unity. Obviously they can't reach it without you and your Armillary. Obviously they can't be reborn without going through.

What I was saying, is that they seem to have expected to become Starborn, but they can't if you choose to leave Unity without being reborn. That might be due to holding the Armillary, or it might be mechanics, so that you can't get left without companions.

[glacial arrow]

I did some things

[solemn bough]

i mean its clear that you could simply fork over the armillary to them and let them go by themselves if they wanted to. you're not the master of the armillary, you just happen to be the person in possession of it

[solemn bough]

?

[leaden gale]

Andreja specifically tells you she chose not to enter because she was afraid you hadn't

[leaden gale]

Sam stands apart from all others. He has a kid no matter how few quests you've done with him. Sarah doesn't have a kid if you do no quests with her.

[solemn bough]

"its probably an under the table excuse to let cora grow up first" except its true for the other three characters as well. thats my point

[glacial arrow]

I'd attribute them not being reborn before you are to be more of a game mechanic disguised as whatever excuses they make, otherwise, you backing out could/would leave you without companions.

Rather than a reference (though it could be both, I guess)

[obsidian glade]

so wait a minute. if only a chosen few get to pull the artifacts out of the rocks, once the artmilary is built its just a wide open portal for anyone to come thru? like literally the whole population of new atlantis could que up and pass thru?

[solemn bough]

we dont know, probably not

all we know is that our "unity self" tells us that other people of the settled systems can discover the path to the unity after we've gone. we don't know what that entails

[glacial arrow]

We know there are no 'chosen'

[solemn bough]

well some people are chosen to do some things, but for who exactly and to what end we don't really know

[leaden gale]

Anyon can do it. You learn that from the yes man ending.

[solemn bough]

like victor aiza was sort of chosen to create the grav drive. jinan was chosen to lead the va'ruun

i suspect both these things were done by a conscious unity or similar entity

[glacial arrow]

The player is similar to Tav in BG3, actually. Hunter tells you himself that you aren't chosen.

[leaden gale]

Unreliable narrator. The unity tells you that tons of folks follow your example in the yes man ending.

Furthermore aquilus believes everyone can do it too.

[solemn bough]

what if you side with hunter? you dont get that vision of other people finding the unity?

[leaden gale]

To be clear the yes man ending is choosing to aid neither hunter nor emissary

Idk! I haven't helped hunter yet