#Movie Madness: 2005

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ionic lynx
stray carbon
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Neither my wife nor I have seen Grizzly Man or know much about it. We know March of the Penguins more, but I think that's because of Happy Feet coming out the next year.

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There's been an effort to redeem War of the Worlds, but at the time, most people just remembered Dakota Fanning screaming.

ionic lynx
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You can vote on your own favorite in #unspooled-polls !

ionic lynx
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Star Wars eliminated?

teal galleon
# stray carbon There's been an effort to redeem War of the Worlds, but at the time, most people...

Yeah I don't get that complaint. The plot is about Tom's character being a shitty dad that doesn't know how to handle his kids. What ~8 year old kid wouldn't be freaking out if they were in an apocalyptic event (could honestly end the sentence there) and had to go through it with a parent that is terrible at parenting. Try to imagine the movie from her perspective, it's a pretty great performance by her.

still shell
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This might be my hottest take: Grizzly Man is one of the funniest movies I’ve ever seen. Now, obviously it is absolutely tragic that he and his girlfriend were eaten by a bear. HAVING SAID THAT, if you watch this movie as a mockumentary that is actually a true story, it is so fucking funny. Anyone else?! Am I a monster?!

stray carbon
ionic lynx
teal galleon
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Yeah I know, it's a very common complaint. I just don't understand it. It isn't unrealistic and is kind of essential to the plot (the dysfunctional family dynamic).

safe karma
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Revenge of the Sith has generated some fun memes, especially in recent years, but I don't think it had any real cultural impact. Nobody really tried to make any movies like it in its wake, its influence was mostly in terms of what NOT to do. 40-Year-Old Virgin launched like a ten, fifteen year change in comedy. R-rated, semi-improvised, Judd Apatow raunchy-with-a-touch-of-heart character comedies became the box office smashes.

finite lynx
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You’ve got more of a point about cultural impact when it comes to the real world, though. But then again, what cultural impact has Grizzly Man had? I think two Discover Channel docus and a Ron White joke.

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Switching gears a bit, I was working at a theater summer 2005 and I saw all but the most obscure movies that they had for free in after-hours “test watches” to make sure the actual film was okay. Sometimes there’d be a dozen of us there to make sure it worked right. Yeah.

Was surprised that only three of them fall under that category. Another three were playing while I was there that I saw by other means.

safe karma
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I remember getting so pumped by the first teaser trailer with Alec Guinness narrating. Wisely hid all dialogue from the movie (except for five words, two of which were from James Earl Jones).

finite lynx
teal galleon
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I think most documentaries are just inherently a product of the time they are made in. Informative, but like a news story once you've seen it, there isn't much desire to revisit old material. Can't think of many I would consider "rewatchable." That limits their ability to remain in the public consciousness.

ionic lynx
true juniper
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I just want to start by saying that I’m glad it came down to Diary of A Mad Black Woman and 40 Year Old Virgin, with 40YOV winning out for the amount of growth that it brought forth. I would rather see growth and innovation rather than stagnation. I’d rather see personal stories like DofMBW than the same recycled ideas. As Amy said, “Growth is what matters…Endless iterations of the same superhero characters limits growth. It doesn’t create new industries.”

However, allow me to bring Batman Begins into the discussion for almost the opposite, yet potentially equal, effect on the culture. “Stunting the growth” of the culture is still an effect on the culture.

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It “legitimized” comic book movies as a serious endeavor, so that the MCU and the superhero phase that we’ve been in for the past 20 years could happen. Would a new version of Three Days of the Condor be a Captain America film without Batman Begins?

It made darker films more of the norm. Both in color grading and desaturation, as well as everything being “dark and gritty.” It brought about more reboots and the glut of origin stories, instead of characters further in their journey where the story may actually be. Casino Royale is a response to Batman Begins as much as The Bourne Identity. The rebooted Star Trek, Sherlock Holmes, The Planet of the Apes reboots, the Godzilla/Kong movies, the Snyderverse (and all of its fans’ toxicity in the culture), Breaking Bad, Mad Men are all responses in a way to Batman Begins.

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It also affected the Academy Awards, by giving The Dark Knight a runway to take off from. Without the Dark Knight and its Academy Awards “snub,” the Academy wouldn’t have expanded its Best Picture category both to 10 pictures at first and to more populist fare. It also helped Nolan get the ability to do more of what he wanted to do, including his Oppenheimer win.

Is it the best Batman in my opinion? That honor goes to Batman Returns for me. It’s probably not even the best Nolan Batman. But it absolutely effected the culture in a way that both Diary of a Mad Black Woman and 40 Year Old Virgin did. Hopefully, we move and grow cinematically beyond it.

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(Apologies for the length. I know this probably isn’t the right forum for it. 😬)

ionic lynx
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I assume Brokeback Mountain wasn’t included because they already did an episode on that. But Batman Begins probably should have been.

finite lynx
true juniper
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That or it was left out because they already covered The Dark Knight, and they didn’t want to retread old ground. Both could/should have been included, but cut from the sweet sixteen because they’ve already been touched on in a different episode? 🤷🏻‍♂️

fringe aspen
pliant plover
fringe aspen
pliant plover
pliant plover
true juniper
# pliant plover Agreed

Fair play. The Dark Knight is the better movie, where the series hit its stride and better locked into what Batman Begins was doing. Like Saw II (my other potential omission) being more indicative of where the culture was going than the original Saw

jade lantern
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Batman begins is actually the most influential reboot. I think it's the first reboot that other franchise would follow suit to varying degrees of success.

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Batman Begins action really sucks though, that's my only real criticism of that movie. It's shot too close up and cut to fast to see what's going on.

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Star wars episode 3 lives on as glorious memes, but it feels insular to fans.

stray carbon
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I don't think it sucks, but it's uneven with weird pacing. It has great moments, though, particularly in the first half.

ionic lynx
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I'd say Star Wars Episode 3 is probably the best movie out of that trilogy, but it's mostly following through on what was set up in the other two (and the original trilogy, of course) so I don't know that it counts as influential on the culture. The others have probably spawned just as many memes.

pliant plover
finite lynx
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I feel like I remember Amy saying once that she hadn’t seen Star Wars Ep. 2 or 3? I remember it because of how surprising that was.

Of course, it’s not necessary to have seen a movie to judge its cultural impact.

finite lynx
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Other notes from having worked in a theater that summer:

-I started a week or so after Revenge of the Sith opened, and War of the Worlds was the only true blockbuster the rest of the summer. It was kind of a weak summer for movies, which made my job easier. I think I left just before 40 yo Virgin opened.

-99% of viewers of Hustle & Flow were black people, at least at this one theater. I remember actually noticing when an old white couple went to see it, because of how unusual that was. But I knew that it was critically acclaimed.

-The only time I took advantage of getting free tickets to older movies was when I got my parents free tickets to see Mr. & Mrs. Smith, thinking that an action/romance would be a perfect date movie. My mom agreed, my dad did not. I’m a little surprised that it’s in the running at all.

-Arriving at the end of movies to clean the theater out as soon as everyone left means that I could tell you, probably to this day, what happened at the end of every movie that played that summer, and which ones had an after or mid-credits sequence.

proper pendant
# pliant plover I’d argue PHANTOM MENACE is the movie of the prequels that had the most cultura...

I’m not sure if it would have beaten 40 year old Virgin, but I am surprised about the quick dismissal of Revenge of the Sith. I would argue that without Revenge of the Sith (for better or for worse) Lucasfilm would not have been sold to Disney and we would not have the current state of Star Wars. That may have been a better world, but Revenge of the Sith allowed Lucas to feel complete and move on from that world. That results of which are definitely still impacting the film world today.

finite lynx
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I’m finding myself wishing that they had done Movie Madness 2004 just to see where Anchorman and Napoleon Dynamite would have ended up.

stray carbon
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I think Paul said he never saw Napoleon Dynamite?

finite lynx
stray carbon
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Oh, that's right

junior jackal
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Sorry, but I have to point out how myopic this was. You talked about what affected culture for you. I definitely won't argue that in the world of standard hollywood, where white men rule, Judd has been a kingmaker. But what you're missing out is the cultural impact Tyler Perry has had on a whole lot more than typical hollywood. He has created a place to support black arts - in all their forms. He has expanded hollywood behind it's bubble and included the people who have been on the outside for so long. There are artists of all types who are now able to actually thrive and do their art because of Tyler Perry. I don't think that's the same with Judd. Sorry, but talented white people who are already making a name for themselves at Largo are going to find a way into hollywood. To me it's no contest.

pliant plover
# junior jackal Sorry, but I have to point out how myopic this was. You talked about what affect...

Tyler made it down to the finals. I feel like he was plenty applauded for his contribution to culture. But it wasn’t what career is better it’s what movie affected culture more. I think you can draw a straight line to the movies and careers that 40yr virgin created over Diary. I’m not taking Judd. I’m talking about as far as studios trusting comedy like this, giving certain actors a shot to lead films and get more roles because of their connection to it. Even the copycats benefitted. When you stand that next to diary of a mad black woman, the film - I don’t think that Darren Grant really exploded. Shemar might be the only person that popped from that cast long term but he was already on a giant soap already. I do think that movie exploded Tyler Perry.

Also what’s with that Largo dig? Were you at largo in 2004 - I wasn’t. I’d argue that you probably meant to say Uncabaret - that’s where comedy was in LA in early 2000s. I don’t even think Judd was performing back then. He had stoped doing standup. He’s only recently come back.

Obviously it’s subjective and it’s very easy to lump groups of people together (and I get the white men argument) but getting in doors starting out as a improviser was not easy (it just wasn’t respected at all) but he put some respect on it. The fact I was an improviser helped me. I definitely was apart of that ripple. I think Human Giant is part of that Ripple.

I also see the inherent racism in the fact that Judd was wrapped up by the Hollywood system after 1 hit and Tyler wasn’t. Which makes his journey more impressive. But that’s how I viewed it. More as movie vs movie.

ionic lynx
ionic lynx
clear abyss
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Great episode!

jade lantern
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I have yet to see a Tyler Perry movie, but I have listened to the Newcomers Podcast, which the hosts go over how wild and ridiculous his movies are. Also the Boondocks episode and the Atlanta episode on Tyler Perry is something to note. So I'm not gonna lie, he as made a big cultural splash that other artists skewed him and his brand.

true juniper
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Tyler Perry absolutely made a big cultural splash, though I don’t know if it was overnight or more building his brand/opening up the culture to other perspectives and showing their commercial viability. Speaking as a movie theater employee in the late 2000’s, Tyler Perry movies were one of the only guaranteed “out the door, break out the cordons” blockbusters.

Also, you could argue tax credits created the thriving film industry in Georgia, but Tyler Perry helped showed that the system could pull it off there. Tennessee has tax credits, too, but so many of my peers have to go to Georgia, because of the studio systems there that he helped make a viable alternative option to Hollywood or New York.

He affected the culture in how and where it got made, as well as the stories that got told, so I’m glad that he got his flowers and made it to the finals. For me personally, I think things clicked with Madea’s Family Reunion, where Tyler Perry took over the directing role and really steered the ship.

true juniper
# finite lynx I’m finding myself wishing that they had done Movie Madness 2004 just to see whe...

I think that if it had been 2004, Anchorman would’ve gone all the way for similar reasons to 40 Year Old Virgin. I can’t say what it would’ve ended up against, so I don’t know if it would’ve taken the top prize, but it has a lot of the same performers, Judd Apatow produced it so you get all of his kingmaking credit, it showed similar “Line-O-Rama” improvisation shine, and you would get the additional Will Ferrell/Adam McKay bump and everything that comes with that (The Big Short, Stranger Than Fiction, etc.)

finite lynx
true juniper
# jade lantern Batman begins is actually the most influential reboot. I think it's the first re...

Absolutely agree. Everything after it became an origin story and had to be “grounded in reality” or “dark and gritty.” (On a slight tangent, I recognize the Twin Peaks influence, but would Riverdale been dark and gritty Archie, if that hadn’t become the baseline?)

Did other films and shows do it better? Absolutely. The Dark Knight is a better example of what could be done with it, but it’s not a vast formula departure from the original, unlike Saw to Saw II. Casino Royale may have been more sure of itself and the tone, but Paul Haggis was brought in to rewrite the script after Batman Begins released and both called it “Bond Begins,” as well as saying, “We’re trying to do for Bond what Batman Begins did for Batman,” before production started.

If it’s a question of what’s the better movie, then Batman might not pull top prize. But will it be remembered in 20 years? Being tied to The Dark Knight on top of its own merits, that seems assured. Did it have an outsized effect on the culture? 100%.

fringe aspen
pliant plover
remote gull
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I tend to agree more with Amy than Paul, but he was 100% correct about Kiss Kiss Bang Bang over Spielberg's War of the Worlds.
Michael Cera was launched by Arrested Development. I find Judd Apatow unfunny and would vote against anything by him. The "impact" of letting people riff on camera until the runtime is bloated has been a negative one.

remote gull
remote gull
remote gull
ionic lynx
ionic lynx
true juniper
# fringe aspen I think Anchorman was too absurdist to have the broad appeal of 40 yo virgin. My...

Fair play. Not saying I disagree that the humor with heart versus absurdity was the secret sauce, but can a box office bomb (not that Anchorman was a bomb) have lasting cultural impact? Steve Carrell’s work in Anchorman is what led to Judd Apatow trusting him to lead 40 Year Old Virgin. Freaks and Geeks could be considered a “failed” show, cancelled before the first season finished, but I’d say it bought Mr. Apatow the social cache to make 40 Year Old Virgin. Again, not disagreeing that 40 Year Old Virgin’s humor with heart was the missing ingredient from that crew that pushed it over the edge culturally, as @pliant plover excellently put it. A mix of both Napoleon and Anchorman. Everything’s in conversation with each other

wary solstice
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40 YOV was a movie I avoided when in theatres because I found the trailer so off-putting. Never was tempted to revisit.
Likewise, Diary I don’t even remember seeing a trailer and the entire franchise has been permanently off my radar. I saw or heard a reference to Madea once and had to Google what it cuz it rang zero bells for me. I’m wondering if that franchise has not been as aggressively promoted in Canada as in the USA. Maybe even certain states are more likely the target market than others.

wary solstice
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Looked it up. Box office of Diary of a Mad Black Woman" was $50.6 million domestically (USA) and $19K internationally. No specific numbers for Canada but would have been negligible.
Basically this was a film that had zero cultural impact outside of the USA. Not surprising it never hit my radar.

shy cloak
# true juniper Fair play. Not saying I disagree that the humor with heart versus absurdity was ...

I'd argue you dont get to Tim and Eric or I Think You Should Leave or maybe even a few shows our dear host has done without Anchorman -- not necessarily because it was influential on the folks who made that stuff, it just opened the door for more irreverent stuff to be acceptable.

I was pretty out on 40YV in theatres for the same type of reason...I was just over the fratpack stuff at the time and I thought it was going to be a continuation. Obviously it wasn't and that worked for me in the end.

But I've gotten to a point with Wedding Crashers where I draw a straight line from the reception of that film to the Gone Girl cool girl monologue. I know, I'm insane, and I'm not saying that Flynn wrote that specifically to spite Wedding Crashers, but I see a version of that couple watching that movie and the girl is trying to like it but knows something is actually kind of...not great about it.

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One other thing on the comedy front: i think it's alot easier to look back now and draw the different themes and approaches, but it is worth stating that at the time they were released, I dont know if I or audiences distinguished much between an Old School and a Zoolander and a Wedding Crashers and 40 Year Old Virgin and an Anchorman, and in someways thats natural due to the overlapping talent. But in retrospect those are all pretty distinct in their approach outside of maybe Old School/Wedding Crashers.

ionic lynx
shy cloak
# still shell This might be my hottest take: Grizzly Man is one of the funniest movies I’ve ev...

The sequence where one of the bears shits himself in the bear fight is, I feel awful saying it, one of the funnier things I've seen on film. There are definitely other funny parts. I don't know. Ultimately Treadwell ||knew he shouldnt be doing what he was doing, and maybe id feel differently about it if it was just him that died, but the fact that he got his girlfriend killed, gave me some detachment from him.||

I feel like the part thats kind of underdiscussed is that Herzog sees a kindered spirit in Treadwell and there's a sort of "there but for the grace of god go I" undertone to what he's saying about his own filmmaking, and he even takes a shot at unions who try to dull his vision, and I'm actually kind of surprised he doesn't get more shit for all of that.