#Batman Returns
zealous shell
I'm gonna come in here with my hot take.
Michelle Pfiefer is the worst catwoman. I think her portrayal is an insult to the character. Catwoman is supposed to be a self-made, confident, intelligent, and put together woman. She knows what she wants and how to get it.
Pfiefer's portrayal has Selena Kyle as a hair brained, clumsy, mess of a woman, who then become Catwoman due to the cliché "accident." But even then, as Catwoman, she's not mentally stable in the slightest.
Look, I don't think it's Pfiefer's fault. She did a great job in the role. She put in a ton of effort and did some truly impressive stuff, especially with learning how to use the whip. It was how the character was written and directed that was the problem.
But that aside. Batman Returns is good. Just good. If I had to rank all the Batman movies, it would be firmly in the middle. Not even close to the best representation of either Batman, or Tim Burton. A resounding NO for space.
slender zealot
Gotta be honest. Not interested in buying this movie on 4k disc. Found it to be a disappointing sequel way back when. Rewatching was ok but it lost the gravitas and even fun of the original.
verbal badger
This is might the best example of a movie we collectively appreciate and respect more than we should.
I rewatched it recently and it’s just not that good of a movie. I enjoy the fun performances but they’re a little overhyped. The highlight on my rewatch was realizing how comically scary the Penguin is. But overall the movie is pretty mid.
I’d argue Furiosa is better 😉.
zealous shell
Paul and Amy not liking Furiosa is a mark against them. Furiosa was great.
wooden zealot
My take on this has long been: great Burton movie, bad Batman movie.
It has so many of the hallmarks of a Tim Burton: gorgeous expressionist aesthetic, examination of marginalized people, the juxtaposition of “the normal” with “the freakish”
But this is a film that barely features Batman, and the villains fully take centre stage. That was by design, because Burton thought Batman should be peripheral, in the shadows. I get that Shreck, Penguin and Catwoman all reflect Batman’s psyche in some way, and that’s interesting. And I’m glad Burton got all this money to make a truly insane ‘Burton film.’ But I think it ultimately fails as a Batman film.
So I’m willing to say it’s a really good film, but it’s nowhere near the top of my list when I rank Batman films.
I also saw this in theatres when I was 6, and it was a LOT at that age.
ruby kayak
I prefer Batman as the peripheral character to his more interesting villians. Its what makes Batman The Animated Series so good.
I think this is my favorite Batmovie? Certainly best of the original set, and the Batman is much better than Reeves'. I think this and the end of TDK are the only ones that exemplify Batman trying to save his villains.
zealous shell
Agree about the animated series. Heck, Batman only thrives on his amazing rogues gallery.
Ask anyone who isn't a huge comic nerd to list villains of super heroes, and almost everyone is going to be able to name more Batman villains than any other super hero. Only Spiderman could maybe come close. Sure, superman has a ton, but few people will know any beyond Lex Luthor
cobalt tulip
I remember when I saw this at the theatre back when. DeVito's Penguin left a bad impression on me (disgusted with the fish-eating 😄 ). Pfeiffer's Catwoman confused me, cause I wanted her to win.
The storytelling was dark and the movie wasn't as fun as I had expected it to be
austere night
I think this movie is pretty good, but Burton needed less editorial control. It's a little excessive. Also, it's funny that the Penguin has more clowns supporting him than the Joker
low basalt
i prefer Burton's original Batman, even if Burton himself doesn't. having 3 antagonists to represent different facets of Batman makes them individually less compelling than Nicholson's Joker (still my favorite iteration of the character on the big screen)
keen ore
This movie has enjoyed quite a reputational resugence over the years, and I think I see why: it has a lot of fun/interesting pieces. As you go back to watch it over and over again (or catch it on TV or something), you basically focus on those. It's also visually gorgeous.
The story is weak and all over the place, though. None of the elements fully fit together; Batman and Catwoman and the Penguin all seem to be leading their own movies that only occasionally intersect. I enjoyed the movie at the start, but as it went along I remembered why I originally thought this was a disappointment in theaters.
austere night
Also, the Christopher Walken plot is kind of weak and too much of the movie
glossy ingot
Make comic book movies horny again! 🗣️
verbal badger
Felt like I came off a little too harsh so I’m coming back to say this movie obviously looks incredible and thanks to Danny Elfman, sounds incredible. In terms of creating memorable characters and settings this might be Burton at his best. But I forgive a movie like Beetlejuice a lot more than I forgive this movie when it comes to its erratic subplots.
keen ore
Felt like I came off a little too harsh so I’m coming back to say this movie obv...
I think the difference is that Beetlejuice isn't trying to be "big." It's just about people living in one house. The Penguin running for mayor seems like a "big" story that doesn't quite go anywhere.
cobalt tulip
I forgot about DeVito's monologues, one which is clipped in the pod. That's a great performance and that Penguin storyline would've made a compelling stand-alone movie
austere night
I think the difference is that Beetlejuice isn't trying to be "big." It's just a...
It's only sort of big. It's still a real estate deal.
rough vapor
Great analysis. Enjoyed this conversation on podcast.
Bruce Wayne is Raskolnikov (upside down) in Crime and Punishment.
Love this movie, and the comic in general - especially the study of people in power and socioeconomic hierarchical structures.
Love the moral dilemmas re: Crime/Punishment/Justice/Equality/Equity when Capitalism is in decay and how the Class a person is born into determines their choices, social responsibilities/accountabilities, and in general, their destiny.
Catwoman is sexy and dangerous in her feminist rage and really enjoyed her villain origin story under Capitalism/Patriarchy. Can definitely relate in 2024. 😆
smoky trellis
Man, I didn’t remember the political side of this film (probably because I was a child and/or traumatized by this thing) but dear lord. The black bile thing also does remind me of Giuliani’s hair dye ftr.
smoky trellis
One thing I kind of wanted to throw out there about Batman, and I’ll go on record as saying I’m not a big Batman person despite somehow having seen every Batman film, is what Paul is kind of getting at at like 56ish: is Batman kind of a Mary Sue? Not necessarily this Batman, but Batman as a concept? You have someone who a billionaire playboy who is also a loner but also a detective who works with the police all the time and is also an expert martial artist but also is constantly relying on gadgets and weaponry and he doesn’t kill people except when he does and he’s fighting normal people and aliens and it’s all…. Like I get that duality is a big thing with this character but it’s all a bit much for one guy, isn’t it?
And I feel like that maybe leads to the choice to foreground the villains, to mostly great effect here, maybe not so much in the other films.
thin crest
I do think Batman is definitely a power fantasy. What makes the villains neat is that they're all mentally wounded people. When you get tired of Batman's angst over his parents you can make a movie about the Joker's angst or Mr Freeze's angst or whoever. And although Batman is certainly a weirdo, his villains are even more flamboyant about it
ruby kayak
One thing I kind of wanted to throw out there about Batman, and I’ll go on recor...
I think “Mary Sues” by definition have no weaknesses and don’t struggle. The general arc for any batman story is basically Batman loses to new villain or villain plot, then Batman figure out how to beat new villain or villain plot and Batman wins. Generally the entertainment is that it’s always messy. Batman fails to save Rachel, or Selina or Jason Todd or sometimes the villain from their self.
austere night
Mary Sue is a self-insert character usually. I don't think Batman applies.
smoky trellis
I’m no longer sold on my Mary Sue argument thanks to good feedback here lol but that said…I think the directors do put their own respective personalities on to the character to a more extreme degree than most super heroes. We’ve had three Spider-Men who are pretty identifiable as the same guy. I don’t think that’s really true for the Batmen.
zealous shell
I wouldn't classify Batman as a mary sue, but he's definitely a power fantasy. Hell, there's many criticisms of the entire super hero genre, that much of it is just a conservative view on crime. That there are people who are just naturally better in every way than the masses, and that only these unaccountable people can keep the world safe from these criminals.
Of course stuff like The Boys is a direct acknowledgement of this and modern comics have much different sensibilities. That critique only really applies to some superhero stuff.
slender zealot
Coincidence that you mention Batman because I just watched Nolan's trilogy again and in Batman Begins there is a line where Bruce Wayne says that while living on the streets he quickly learned that crime wasn't so simple to define when there were people trying to survive.
verbal badger
I was originally holding off on asking this but now that the conversation has evolved into a broader conversation about Batman, what’s the consensus these days on the best Batman film?
I have lots of respect for the original and as I pointed out earlier there’s lots to enjoy about Batman Returns but part of me feels like it’s undeniably The Dark Knight despite it being a cliche answer. I also recognize that like lots of comic book stuff and Star Wars stuff the worst of people can be fans of it so I admit it comes off like an edgelord response to say The Dark Knight.
Just curious! Also I wonder if someone will/can argue for Batman Begins to be the best.
Also maybe it isn’t controversial at all to say The Dark Knight 😅 might be making that up in my head
smoky trellis
I think Ledger giving a generational perfomance sort of complicates that assessment. I kind of think it has to be The Dark Knight, although I’m not sure it would be with another actor.
keen ore
Dark Knight probably is the best overall movie (though I’m not as wild about it as a lot of fans are). As a representation of Batman, I’m not sure. Honestly, my answer to that is probably the entire Animated Series.
glossy ingot
Today's directors "i will be as faithful to the source material and fans will be happy"
Tim Burton "Penguin and Catwoman are literally freaky, horny animal people."