Dune

[tranquil mist]

https://tenor.com/view/iam-smiling-gif-24530724

Poll here: #unspooled-polls message

[tranquil mist]

<@&961324191204925460>

[modest kelp]

I think I finally get Dune. I have seen the Lynch movie a couple times, read the book, and watched the new Dune a couple times. It’s like you need a PhD to understand the economics that is the key motivators for the story. This movie also feels like a big set up for the next movie. Nothing really happens. It’s like if the first Lord of the Rings movie was just Frodo getting the ring.

[low lodge]

I think the book divides well into two halves and I never really felt dissatisfied with this being part 1. Would I have preferred one 4-5 hr epic? Maybe, but I think this still works incredibly well. I did need a few viewings (day-and-date release on hbo was great) to understand who's who and the politics going on because I hadn't read the book at that point, but in my view it got better and I appreciated it more every time.

Ultimately, the story isn't that complicated although it sort of feels like it is at first. Maybe that's a fault of the filmmaking but I don't hold it against it. I think it's possibly a masterpiece.

[hybrid coral]

I don't disagree with this. An extremely well done production that also doesn't have much personality in the performances short Brolin and I'd also add Jason Momoa

[silk fossil]

This movie is perfect to me.

[tranquil mist]

Never read the book. I was bewildered by the Lynch film and found this version to be so much more instantly accessible and engrossing. Probably can't call it an all-timer without seeing the second part, but what I did see was pretty great.

I can't agree about the performances lacking dimension. It's just that they're all very subtle, with emotion boiling below the surface.

[solemn matrix]

I tend to agree... this one didn't really move the needle for me (with all the distractions of watching it on VOD). But maybe watching on the big screen could help!

[young lantern]

I think Dune may have been (for me) the best movie of 2021. I kept trying to talk myself into other movies because it seemed a half a movie (and a self-serious genre epic) shouldn't be the top movie, but I kept coming around to it. I'm very excited for part 2.

[tranquil mist]

I don't get the claim that "nothing happens" in the film? The whole thing builds to a palace coup in which Paul's father is killed (along with most of his allies) and Paul and his mother are forced to flee into exile with the native Fremen they once ruled over. These are pretty big events!

If the claim is that nothing is resolved, then okay, true.

[young lantern]

The Lynch movie is weird because everything is over explained and very confusing at the same time. It's the studio's fault for cutting an hour from the intended runtime.

I'm absolutely going to view these as a single movie with a (very long) intermission. I'm holding off voting in the poll until I see the second half. (Though I do think movies need to marinate and age a bit)

[tranquil mist]

That is the sense I get from it, that they tried to cram too much story into too short a run time.

[young lantern]

I had just read the book and I was still barely following the plot. I couldn't imagine what people thought who hadn't read it. Maybe they just go with the (spice) flow and don't try to follow all the details.

[solemn matrix]

For me it comes down to the "subtle" point that you mentioned. As a viewer (and maybe I'm alone in this) I don't feel engaged if the performers are being too subtle. It's like, well if this person doesn't react that much, then maybe that is considered normal in this story's universe

[solemn matrix]

I tend to agree too, it's that "tell not show" thing that the Lynch version does. Which sometimes puts me off (but maybe to other viewers it's not a hindrance)

[hybrid coral]

For me it's that everyone is is playing very serious and reserved at all times. As said subtle performances but often in situations where you would expect less subtly. I think also in general when I feel characters operate without any sense of humor and amusement.

Duncan Idaho feels a bit like he's playing against what everyone else is doing.

Overall I think the direction and spectacle of it push past my criticism here. I've seen it a few times and I have my tickets part 2 tonight.

One thing I'll be curious about is watching part 1 after I see part 2. It really does feel like something incomplete and having seen the next part it might recontextualize the movie for me.

[young lantern]

I'm planning on rewatching part 1 shortly before 2. Maybe Monday or Tuesday.

[low lodge]

I caught the early screening of 2 last weekend and it's driving me crazy having to wait for the discourse to catch up. 😭

[solemn matrix]

How did you find it?

[young lantern]

I'm disappointed there are no double features near me

[fierce pelican]

Subtlety is how we define artistic value though. If the council determines something that is meant to be serious is not sufficiently subtle it bad art

[low lodge]

They did a "fan first" screening at my theater on Sunday. Pretty sure it was a national thing. Doubt they singled out my small NC city 🤓

[solemn matrix]

Oh cool. Did you like it

[modest kelp]

Ok so my point is that the main points in the movie leading up to the coupe don’t really come into play for the rest of the story, Paul’s journey. While important backstory, it’s not the real plot line

[silver dagger]

I got tickets for Part 2 on Saturday. The rewatch was nice.

I always envisioned Dune as a HBO series back like a few years ago but it’s great they get to make 6-hour Dune movie. And putting only the first part of the book of the first movie was great cause the rest of the book is big on action and ideas. Cause probably show wouldn’t have the production quality of these movies. It’s pretty special.

I always liked from this vision is these humans do feel like they live in the year 10,000 but it’s also in the Dune saga they have (B)efore (G)uild and (A)fter (G)uild. The 1960’s were about 11,200 BG so the movie takes place roughly 20,000+ years from now. And the humans feel that way.

Also I am hc fan of the novels. Read them all even the Brian’s weird prequels and sequels

[low lodge]

Loved it! Spoilers - ||but I have some serious reservations about how accessible it is. I think the "unfilmable" reputation comes mostly from the second half of the book and I was surprised to see that vileneuve doesn't really shy away from that. It's quite faithful. I'm very curious about how audiences will react. I read the book after seeing part 1 so I didn't have trouble understanding what was happening and why.||

[real pawn]

Watching the Lynch version made me appreciate the pacing and splitting Dune into 2 parts. It's a dense book.

Looked up my first impression of the movie and it still is true

In all seriousness, i really liked Dune part 1, but i think my final impression will be based on part 2 and judging it as a complete story. So far it's an interesting story.

[marsh aurora]

On the one hand, this is too recent to evaluate. On the other, it's a part 1 which doesn't make sense to launch into space without part 2.

speaking of Fremen = free men, in "The Act of Killing" the indonesian gangsters repeatedly bring up the etymology of "preman" = free man.

tolkien's fictional names could also be quite obvious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGi9sUpl4lE

[gentle void]

See also: The Lonely Mountain or The Misty Mountains

Durinsbane

I actually thought of it as "freh-men" when I first read the book, only catching that it was 'free men' like halfway through

Is the Arabic in Dune real? Or is it fantasy Arabic? I never figured that out

Apparently its real, but not pronounced well? Not surprising from Hollywood

[gilded ravine]

Love this movie. Deserves to go into space. It’s compelling, well acted and directed. Easy rewatchability. Couldn’t care less about the books.

[solemn matrix]

I recognized the style when Paul (Chalamet) spars with Gurney (Brolin), it's Filipino martial arts:
https://youtu.be/7W8qG572-zs

[solemn matrix]

Finished my 2nd watch after 2021. I think I like the movie now because I know better about what's going on.
(The following were/are my rhetorical questions. I don't need the answers to these. I haven't read the books and probably won't.) Thinking back to my first watch in 2021 when I liked the movie less, I had challenges e.g., Who is this Emperor? How powerful is he that he can transplant the Atreides(es) to Arrakis just by way of decree? What's with Leto's urge of aligning his House with the Fremen? etc. but now I'm less concerned.

"Why now? Why today?" are the questions I ask about the protagonists of a given story when I'm not connecting. I think some viewers have similar questions when they watch "hard sci-fi" like this one

[silver dagger]

I think hardest thing about the book(s) is that you have to explain the whole tripod of power between 1. The Emperor and his powerful legions. 2. The CHOAM Union that does all trading in the Empire which the Great Houses benefit from. 3. The Spacing Guild monopoly on transport. And the Bene Gesserit are influencing all of them.

And they left out the Great Convention in the movies that states that all the Great Houses have a ton of nukes but it’s forbidden to use against humans. Only machines minds. I mean why not nuke Atredies back to the Stone Age? Cause any House that did that would be sanctioned and banished from the Empire.

The Emperor puts people in charge of Arrakis to ensure the flow of spice because the Guild and Sisters need it. But he can’t tip the scales too much in favor that a House could defeat his unbeaten army.

[tranquil mist]

Is there a Simpsons? I don't think there's a reference to this movie, but the books have been referenced before:
https://booksgowhere.tumblr.com/post/50944075659/from-the-simpsons-season-24-episode-20

[hybrid coral]

To me the sequel didn't have this issue. More emotive performances.

[honest thunder]

Part 2 has a lot of humour

Maybe Messiah gets to a 5 for me. We’ll wait and see.

One thing I noticed this 4th viewing of Dunc is how much it felt like Leto knew he was signing his own execution by going to Arrakis. There’s a beat before he signs his seal where you know he doesn’t want to do it, but there’s an obligation to uphold the honourable morals of his family line that makes him go through with it. Also maybe a slight hope that he’d have enough time to change his fate.

Getting to see both films back to back in a cinema was a real treat.

Part 2 steps it up with the weirdness, humour and the way they shoot and choreograph the action. Also with the fact that this isn’t a heroic story.

[hybrid coral]

I still don't know how to rate this because it feels so much like 1/3rd of the story.

Like if someone wants to see it I think they'll be satisfied but I wouldn't recommend it to someone who was like "hey, what's this Dune movie, should I see it?" I don't think I'd say yes.

I haven't read the book so I'm not in a position to enjoy it purely for spectacle and quality how the story telling is so far. And this isn't something I think applies to all trilogies, I feel many trilogies each entry can tell a full story within the larger story going on. I do not get that with Dune, I feel I'm in the middle of the current story being told at the end.

[latent osprey]

Hard not to be reminded of "Laurence of Arabia" when recalling Dune. Guy goes into desert, becomes a leader of indigenous desert people, unites them and leads them in a fight for their freedom. Uses camels (sandworms) as an advantage over the mechanized power that is a fish out of water in the desert environment. Economics, political power and morality weigh heavily as themes. The viewer has a murky view of the string pulling. Major difference is that in sci fi the planets are homogeneous, and have earth strength gravity, atmospheric pressure. So the things that are different aren't different.

[young lantern]

Lawrence of Arabia was likely an inspiration to Herbert, iirc.

[peak lotus]

Paul, I couldn't believe that you and Amy were (seemingly) contending that there was no way D2 would get Best Pictuer because it's really one double movie. Did you really not remember Lord Of The Rings? The Oscar sweep by the last one was OBVIOUSLY a cumulative award given for all three pictures together.

[slow rune]

^Yes because Dune 3/Messiah will get the oscar nom. Not D2

It might have a chance to get a nom if Denis held off revealing that he is writing part 3.

I don’t mind being wrong though hehe

[young lantern]

Part 1 got a nomination. I'd expect part 2 to get one. Can it win? Dune Messiah is going to be more polarizing.

[lethal finch]

With Lord of the Rings they waited for the third film so it may be a similar approach.

[young lantern]

They might. I do think those are different in that Lord of the Rings is written as a single story split into six books across three publications. Dune is one book split into two movies and Dune Messiah is its sequel. DV believes the two books tell a complete story (though some fans think Children of Dune completes that story). But Dune Messiah isn't going to be the same kind of conclusion that Return of the King is.

[tranquil mist]

Those three LOTR films were also part of one big production, filmed all at once.

[low lodge]

The big thing about part 2 being a contender this year is that the competition doesn't seem to be that tough. The slate looks to be fairly weak at this point. I think getting a nom will be pretty straightforward and it's not really clear what else might be a contender. If Dune 2 does really well at the box office, I think it'll have a huge shot.

[real pawn]

Saw part 2. It's really good. Not sure how i feel as a whole yet.

[tranquil mist]

Really liked Part 2, but I am kind of learning about myself that I tend to keep preferring the original entry in a series because of the sense of discovery and excitement that can't be recaptured (like, I prefer Fellowship to the other LOTR films and A New Hope to Empire). That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Dune Part 2, probably just a "me" thing, but I still prefer Part 1 right now.

[solemn matrix]

I saw Part 2 last night and liked it. I just remembered Denis Villeneuve saying in an interview a few years back that he read the books since he was young.
I guess that what it takes for a story this dense to shine on the silver screen! It needed someone who can write an effective adaptation from book to screenplay, which makes me appreciate Villeneuve's talents as well.
I especially enjoyed the last 45 minutes of Part 2 when the story ramps up really nicely. It's tightly scripted, and (having never read the books) I can only suppose that it took pages and pages to describe the events portrayed on screen

And the part of the story that's been generously meme-ified over the weekend, i.e. ||how the Fremen people of faith so readily perceive signs that Paul (Chalamet) is their saviour|| I can very much relate (even as I laughed watching it on screen) as a recovering "one of those people"

[young lantern]

I was thinking a lot about the story cuts he made from the novel. They must have been painful for him, but they complicate the story in a way that's hard to depict on screen. In part 1, he cut the Duke trying to portray Jessica as a traitor in order to misdirect. There are some plotlines in part 2 that are apparently cut as well: || a failed Kwisatch Haderach, Hawat working for the Harkonnens ||

[low lodge]

Only cut I was disappointed with was (part 2 spoiler) ||baby alia murdering baron harkonen|| but that really would have just been a meme and I get why it was cut.

[solemn matrix]

Oh and that reveal of ||Jessica being the Baron's daughter|| is a great twist. Which I think I would have also enjoyed from the book.
I think I'm tempted to read now 😄

[honest thunder]

That’s from the book. The ending is pretty rushed and for me personally it felt kind of rushed in the film too.

[young lantern]

I was surprised that DV ended it on a note || that requires him to adapt Dune Messiah.||

I thought the movie slowed down the ending a bit. I had to re-read stuff. But it also drops things to slow it down.

[solemn matrix]

He confirmed on Colbert recently that he wants to adapt the book that you mentioned

[young lantern]

Yeah. I saw that. I had just assumed || he would fully wrap up the book Dune. || The scene at the end of pt 2 || where Chani is upset and rides off feels authentic, but isn't what happens in the book. || What happens in the book is || Chani asks Paul if she should leave since he is marrying Irulan. Paul says she will never leave his side and even though he is marrying Irulan, he will not love her and she will produce no children. He has his mother and Chani negotiate the details. Then he promises to bring water to Arrakis.||

I don't think the ending of the movie contradicts the ending of the novel. But it's leaving it up to a sequel to fill in the details.

There's also a condensed timeline in the movie, which is smart, but may have reprocussions for the next movie. More book spoilers: || His sister is a toddler at the end of the novel. In the second book, she's 16. If the movie needs to resolve issues with Chani, it's going to have to pick up shortly after the end of this movie. That means you probably can't have Paul's sister romantically involved with zombie Duncan Idaho, but maybe that's for the best. ||

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents on how some changes will likely have ripples. DV has done a really good job adapting it so far, so I trust him. I just think he'll need to make more changes.

[low lodge]

Some speculation about the adaptive changes I saw ||was that they may say the water of life just makes Alia age faster so they can explain Anya Taylor Joy playing her. That'd open up the zombie romance but certainly wouldn't necessitate it if he doesn't want to go there. I think they'll certainly have Duncan back in some way because Jason Momoa.||

[young lantern]

I thought about that and that might work. That's the only other way I could think to do it. || I definitely agree Gola Duncan will be in there, even if it's mostly for his relationship with Paul. ||

[marsh aurora]

Arrakis is a very valuable planet because of the spice. It will look like a gift, and one wouldn't openly reject such a gift unless they were willing to openly declare the emperor an enemy. Leto wanted to recruit the Fremen to fight alongside him against his enemies (he knew there were still Harkonnen agents on the planet).

[marsh aurora]

Dune isn't "hard" scifi. It's a go-to example of soft scifi. The tech is handwaved away, Herbert was more interested in the social sciences.

[marsh aurora]

the first Dune book tells an entire story, without Messiah. if you watch part 2, it will feel like a second half rather than a third

[marsh aurora]

yes, Children is the more natural stopping point. God Emperor of Dune picks up thousands of years later

[young lantern]

It doesn't seem DV has any interest in adapting Children of Dune.

[marsh aurora]

if he adapts Messiah, someone else will do Children. they're already working on a TV series about the Bene Gesserit

[young lantern]

I guess we'll see if it would still be good directed by someone else. I haven't read Children of Dune (it's a thick one), so I don't want to comment on how an adaptation will go. I'll just say that choices DV made in adapting Dune will force changes in Dune Messiah. In theory, that could constrain any adaptation of future books.

[gilded ravine]

Very much like Asimov. He was interested in culture and the vast array of possible social norms and rules.

[hybrid coral]

I haven't read the books but the end of part 2 absolutely feels like the middle movie and not a second half

[honest thunder]

I feel like Denis is weaving some of Children into Messiah from certain changes he made in Dune part 2.

[marsh aurora]

He was inspired by Asimov, but Asimov was an actual scientist who imagined science being powerful enough to predict social behavior. Psychohistory isn't actually plausible but he tried to show how Seldon could come up with it in Prelude. Dune's prescience is based on mysticism

[gilded ravine]

He was a biochemist, but in his stories from the well known foundation series to his robots and empire series as well as short stories, everything was about culture. His stories were about people and the belief systems they were embedded in and he never got into technobable. In the Foundation series he mentioned equations that the plan was based and expanded upon, but not in detail other than to say it was basically large model statistical analysis.

[lethal finch]

Similar to Heinlein in the novel of Starship Troopers. He posits that ethics can be calculated mathematically but never actually shows the equations. Can’t remember if he presented a scientific explanation for the telepathy possessed by some characters.

[fierce pelican]

I mean look. If they can do Dune 2021 they can do 🧂🔥

[fair nimbus]

Imagine casting Zendaya in your movie and then leaving her out of it