Bonus Episode - The 2022 Sight & Sound 100

[azure gull]

https://tenor.com/view/cinephilia-jd23-jeanne-dielman-gif-25429408

Bonus Episode - The 2022 Sight & Sound 100

<@&961324191204925460>

Poll results here: https://www.bfi.org.uk/news/revealed-results-2022-sight-sound-greatest-films-all-time-poll

[lucid seal]

I've yet to see any of the top 10 except for Jeanne Dielman and 2001. It'll be a fun catch-up

[hearty ridge]

Is the bonus episode up yet? Haven’t seen it in my feed yet.

[lucid seal]

Yes, it is. I'm on Stitcher.

[hearty ridge]

Just showed up for me too. 🙂

[true geyser]

I watched In The Mood For Love yesterday and really loved it. Glad the list inspired me to check out something new.

[hearty ridge]

Great bonus ep with some great insights like how public lists for each critic might have influenced choices.

[azure gull]

Never seen Jeanne Dielman and thus have no opinion on it. If I have a beef, it's further down where stuff like Parasite, Get Out, and Portrait of a Lady on Fire made the list. Nothing against any of those films, but IMO anything that recent needs to be set aside for a bit before you decide if it's one of the greatest of all time.

[turbid tangle]

When individual lists are published the real fighting can begin 😛

For the record I think when polling like this it is much better that the lists are public. EVEN with them being public people are all complaining like it's some conspiracy of wokeness. Can't imagine what it would be like if it was private. That is more minor than they joy of getting to see the individual lists, but seems important due to polling methods.

[jade sigil]

Yes, I'm glad Amy pointed out that people know their lists will be public and choose their selections in a way to avoid being yelled at like Scorsese.

[jade sigil]

What would be fascinating would be to see an anonymous list with the same voters to compare and see what the differences are. Although a psychological problem with that experiment would likely be that a lot of people wouldn't want to admit to themselves that their public list is not completely sincere. So it might be better to just make the voting anonymous and then let people tweet out their lists individually if they so choose.

[turbid tangle]

As mentioned on the Big Picture and we were chattting about in another channel. I bet Spielberg and others got plenty of votes, but there is also the problem of too many good movies with no consensus best. The way this voting is done is splitting the ballot. It's not like Bergman who while there are fans of many films there are like maybe 2-3 that are always much more well known and regarded than the others.

[jade sigil]

For sure. I agree with Amy that "Portrait of a Lady" is unlikely to make it in ten years. That's a nice B+ movie, but c'mon. And no Tarantino? I don't share Paul's outrage about Spielberg, but Tarantino has to be on there.
Speaking of QT, I hope they cover "Le Samourai". It's super cool, and when I first saw it I was immediately taken aback by how "Tarantinoesque" it was. Then Google informed me that Quentin himself has acknowledged the film's influence on his work.

"Jeanne Dielman (etc.)" is a great film. I was absolutely mesmerized, in a way I can't really explain, by the long static shots of housework filmed with a fixed camera. It deserves to make the top 100. But number one is a bit of a reach.

What a shock that the director of RRR would have such cheesy choices on his list. (Actually, it's not a shock at all, since that movie is a ridiculous over the top melodramatic potboiler.)

Looking forward to their covering David Lynch, although Amy made me nervous about which one they might choose. "Blue Velvet" is one of my top 10 favorite films of all time, but I hate "Eraserhead".

I also cosign doing Bergman. The first one I saw in college was "The Seventh Seal" but my favorite is "Persona", which I actually just rewatched. Another great film I recently rewatched which I think would be interesting for them to cover is "The Battle of Algiers".

[topaz osprey]

Bergman I think may be a separate issue. He had 4 movies in the last poll I think. For whatever reason, Persona seems like the Bergman that's endured with critics, and it's still high at 18. Bergman is derided way more than he used to be--perhaps somewhat because the heavy religious themes and his movies are very slow.

[night forge]

The only Lynch film I don't love (and downright think is bad) is The Straight Story

Well, not counting Dune, which I really like, but it's a different beast

[topaz osprey]

I like Straight Story. 🤷‍♂️ it's interesting how online a lot of critics are pushing hard how Texas Chain Saw Massacre was overlooked and should be on. I think there's a good chance that might pick up steam, especially if current movie business trends continue and horror keeps on enduring.

Im curious what ended up 250-100. That might give some more insights into what is actual vote splitting vs critics just don't want to pick movies from certain people.

[night forge]

Straight Story is like the worst Hallmark Original film

It's interesting that Lynch wanted to challenge himself by making the most conventional movie ever, though

[topaz osprey]

Some people have found more to appreciate about it than Hallmark. For instance, https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/movies/2019/5/23/18636764/david-lynch-the-straight-story-20-years-later-cannes

[azure gull]

The Straight Story is unexpectedly dark, if you care to dig beneath the surface.

[night forge]

The last five minutes were terrific when Harry Dean Stanton showed up. The film has some "dark" moments but they're completely hokey, imo.

Thinking of the scenes with the runaway girl and the vet

[turbid tangle]

"Well that's just like your opinion man..."

I think Straight Story is great at what it is. But like obviously don't cover that of Lynch's movies

[hot sky]

Hi Paul (and Amy)! Have listened since the very first episode, and registered an account here simply to wholeheartedly agree that you should do an Ingmar Bergman on the show! My vote is NOT for The Seventh Seal but for either Persona (maybe sneakily his most influential) or Fanny and Alexander (his career-capping, Oscar winning family epic that is firmly one of my all time favorites). Love you both, love the show! —-Andrew from Chicago

[turbid tangle]

Co-sign Persona or Fanny & Alexander

[night forge]

I'm glad people enjoy The Straight Story. Always happy to discuss the merits of good and bad films

I think it's more important to cover that film than Dune if you're going through the Lynch films

He says it's his most experimental film, and for him that makes a lot of sense

What i find most fascinating is that many Lynch fans consider it one of his best. I'd have thought the opposite before reading up on it before watching it last year, or that it's fans wouldn't like the rest of his films

[jade sigil]

I liked TSS, but I thought "Eraserhead" was unwatchable.

[night forge]

I love Eraserhead. I find it to be a very funny play on the anxieties of family life

But i totally get why most people would find it intolerable

[turbid tangle]

Erarserhead rules, but it doesn't have a broad appeal going for it. I feel like that and Inland Empire are for very specific tastes.

[night forge]

Both are master pieces imo. Inland is just an incredible work

Really glad I got to see it in theaters this year twice for the new restoration

[turbid tangle]

Yeah I can't wait for the eventual blu-ray from the remaster. Really enjoyed it in theater this year on my first watch.

[night forge]

I keep getting disappointed each month when it's not on the list of films coming to Criterion

But at least we got Lost Highway

[turbid tangle]

Yeah, at least it is inevitable. Also Lost Highway is my personal favorite currently so no complaints it came out first.

[night forge]

Same, LH jumped to the top of favorite Lynch works, not counting TP the Return

[azure gull]

re: The Straight Story. Some time ago I read an analysis of it that put together the various clues about Alvin’s past and concluded that Lynch was really telling a story about a guy who was once a toxic alcoholic who drove away his family, caused a fire in his house, and got his daughter’s kids taken away. His journey is one of penance, not just a charming folksy tale.

Can’t find it now, but yeah I think that angle is in there if you want to read it that way. There’s definitely some hinted darkness in Alvin’s past.

[jade sigil]

I'm sure I could appreciate it if it were a short film.

[jade sigil]

I guess there's broad and there's broad. I love "Lost Highway", but I don't think that has broad appeal in the traditional sense. Broader than "Eraserhead" though for sure.

[night forge]

I feel like the dark elements of Alvin's past are pretty plainly laid out in the film: from his estrangement from his brother, causing the fire, his grandchildren being taken away from their mother, specifically not drinking beer until he has his first one in years toward the end. It's all very on the surface, that's really my issue with it. That and Alvin's life advice to each stranger feels very antiquated and "simple," specifically thinking of the scene with the women who ran away from home and his bundle of sticks analogy

He has that story about accidentally shooting a friendly during war

[azure gull]

I think that’s all largely NOT surface. It’s unspoken subtext. But if you found it too obvious, I can’t argue.

[frosty spindle]

So I dug into the why of Dielman being number one and here’s the best explanation I discovered: access to her work has been growing in recent years and she’s one of the more beloved figures in “slow cinema.” That sub genre is more of a critics land than a mainstream audience subgenre too. More importantly, with the wider net on who gets to vote and the push to support female filmmakers, when people list their top then they do try to include at least one or mor female filmmakers. And with the incredible lack of such women in most of film history, you’re pulling from a much shorter list. Thus, an obscure critics darling that was the highest rated female directed film ten years ago rockets up the list.

It’s just all simple math. And I am also still down to watch it 100%.

[hearty ridge]

I honestly really liked it, separately from being really surprised that it would be number 1. It's just such a strange movie, defined by being nonrepresentative of most of the form.

And also the truth is that I watched it SPECIFICALLY because it was put at Number 1 and I said: "Number 1? What even IS that movie?", so there you go.

[azure gull]

I think the desire to include more women filmmakers definitely pushed it up the list, similar to Portrait of a Lady on Fire getting so high so quickly (and I think Amy is right that this is a passion of the moment and these will likely fade on the next poll).

Not that we shouldn’t have more women filmmakers! We should! But it’s true that if you’re talking about historical lists the pickings are slim.

[topaz osprey]

I think it's also become a regular staple for most film classes centering on feminism.

[wet wing]

All I can contribute is that the list made me feel like a total movie peasant, because i think I've seen maybe 10 of the entire list? 😂 My partner who is more of a film buff/lover recognized so many more

[night forge]

I can't wait to go through the list and was surprised at how many we've already looked at via the podcast

[night forge]

I'd say it's much more than subtext and much of it is basically spoken aloud, but I'm glad the film does work for so many people. I wish it did for me as I love every single other film Lynch has put out

[hearty ridge]

I was at 40 seen, now 41 with Jeanne Dielman, but there were several I had only seen because they were covered on the podcast. 🙂

[topaz osprey]

There are definitely way more I haven't seen. I watched a few this past weekend. Was at 66/100, now 69/100. Haven't seen Jeanne Dielman yet.

Of the ones I've seen, I only have two at 3/5 and the rest are 3.5/5 or higher. I agree with Paul that there should be more outright comedies on there. There are 16 according to Letterboxd, but the silents and some like it hot are the only ones really more in that zone. 3/100 for horror is pretty pathetic, even if they did right by The Shining where Unspooled did not (😝). Westerns (2/100) and action (4/100--including two Keaton's, M, and Seven Samurai) is also way low.

Amy is probably right anti Spielberg thing and recent Hollywood seems way too much like not wanting a dinner roasting. As I've gotten more into my 30s, it's both refreshing and sad how much big decisions often come down to how appearing at a meeting will look.

[modern moss]

i'll just say I think Portrait of a Lady on Fire deserves to be on this list and high. it's not a diversity hire

[azure gull]

I think it’s a great film, but to be that confident only three years after its release that it’s one of the top 100 films ever? (Or having enough people think it’s one of the top ten, as that’s how it would get on a ballot?) That kind of stretches credulity to me.

[modern moss]

i don't quite agree with the 'a great film needs time' argument. why can't a new film be great? what does waiting a decade add to that decision? this is about ranking artwork - how it makes audiences feel at the time is all there is to it.

but you and Amy both said this movie will probably fade next time. so that's a different point. what's in it that won't last? that people will no longer feel about it that they do now?

[topaz osprey]

I'm more confident Parasite will stick around personally. I liked Portrait quite a bit. Recency bias is the reason to wait some amount of time. If the 2022 list is an indicator of taste, I'd guess it may get faded for not being depressing, fatalistic, or sad enough at the end 😄

[azure gull]

To me, I need to see how a film influences culture or other filmmakers to have a sense of where it stands in the all-time canon. If it’s a younger filmmaker, I don’t know where it sits in their body of work or how representative it is until I’ve seen more. Sure, not everyone makes lists the same way, but usually this is a significant consideration and I think that’s right.

As to why it will fade, I think it’s been discussed above: because there seemed to be a clear focus this time on including more women/non-white filmmakers and that is reflected in the results. I’m not sure that will be such a focus next time (though it may happen anyway).

[modern moss]

if that's the case i'd argue the fatalistic ones will be the ones that drop off as passing fads, not the timeless one about passion and love

i'll agree about cultural influence, it helps a movie rise for sure, but i also believe there's a subset of movies that don't need that. this isn't a list of 'the most culturally influential' either so that shouldn't be the end-all. i guess it's possible she makes a better movie but then that can go on here too haha.

as i said before, i don't buy that this movie made it on there just because they needed female directors and this is what they landed on. i find that kind of insulting to discussing it as a film proper, tbh. it's as beautiful of a cinematic expression of longing and passion as there is. i think as a point of discussion, we can (and should) avoid shooting off all the women/POC picks as purely token choices.

anyway i'm not trying to argue the fine points of this list, i just felt like this was (and is) being hastily dismissed

[topaz osprey]

The history of the list suggests otherwise. See Vertigo, Contempt, La Dolce Vita, Tokyo Story, The Red Shoes, The Searchers, 2001, In The Mood For Love, or other recent additions--Do the Right Thing, Beau Travail, Black Girl.

Those might not all be fatalistic, but they're not sentimentally crowd pleasing for most audiences.

[modern moss]

i mean Portrait isn't exactly a crowd-pleaser

it's heartbreaking

i see it right along those movies

[topaz osprey]

I'd personally be fine if Portrait of a Lady on Fire replaced Journey To Italy. I'm sure that movie has a lot of historical significance and was first in some ways. First shouldn't always be there though.

[azure gull]

That’s why I’m trying to be careful not to slag the films themselves. I agree that POALOF is a beautiful cinematic expression. Have it in my top ten of that year.

But how it stacks up against the best of all time? I have no idea. It came out three years ago. I only saw it about two years ago. Hence why I think its inclusion and relative high placement is a bit of a “passion of the moment” thing that might not last.

[modern moss]

yea i can get that. i guess we can sort of assume all the movies are great on lists like this, so then it becomes a list of other things

slagging these things may be less of the point, i guess

[turbid tangle]

Just like the critica polled I'm sure we all have our own ideas of how we would pick 10 movies. I'm sure some critics go for a method like Sycasey and want them to be older and have more time and some don't and are judging based on how they feel right then regardless of that metric.

[turbid tangle]

A counter argument to this is people not thinking for themselves and only putting stuff on the list that is "accepted as great" after it's been written about a lot. Maybe for some the academic aspects truly open up a film but it could easily just be used as a replacement for thinking for themselves

[azure gull]

That probably does happen too. That said, when it comes to a poll for critics I would expect the academic aspects to naturally rise a bit higher in importance, as opposed to a general poll of film fans.

[turbid tangle]

For sure. But I'd assume a good critic would also be able to judge a more current film with their knowledge without needing to wait a long time.

[modern moss]

yea i was scrolling some of the lists from directors that have been revealed so far, and quite a few are like 'Citizen Kane/Vertigo/Godfather' and it does sort of feel circular

it's weird to use those as examples b/c they're obviously great but you know what i'm saying lol

which going back to the initial point of Unspooled, is what we're all here to look at I think. are these things truly? or are they just being hung on to for history's sake/convenience?

[azure gull]

I've been in critics groups, and . . . well, they are as subject to recency bias as anyone. We're all human. Me not wanting to put a very recent film on an all-time list is partially to recognize my own fallibility. There have been movies I loved and came back to 10-20 years later and realized were not that great.

[turbid tangle]

As well as the reverse thinking something is bad and then re-evaluating (Eyes wide shut for many).

All I care about is that the critics think it through and choose based on what matters to them. If you were one polled and you like to wait say 10+ years to make sure, great. I want you to be true to what matters to you. Likewise if it was Vinod and that aspect doesn't matter for them great as well.

I am going to assume the majority polled took their time and chose their titles in good faith with whatever criteria mattered to them.

Fwiw id probably personally lean a bit into needing some time and wouldn't put a 2019 movie on unless I had watched it a ton and felt really strongly. I just don't think that there is a super strong reason why they shouldn't be considered as something that could qualify.

[abstract scaffold]

i agree with Paul Schrader: don't vote for anything that recent, wait instead to see if it holds up to the test of time

[frosty spindle]

Yes I've heard that too. Definitely heard a few people say I remember that boring movie from film class.

It's funny that a slow cinema movie took the top spot. I usually hear about Bela Tarr for that genre though. Imagine doing Satantango for Unspooled sheesh.

[azure gull]

Yeah, I should also say that it’s possible Portrait of a Lady on Fire becomes even more clearly a vitally important work in 10 years’ time. I just don’t think anyone can really know that now.

[lapis iron]

I'd like to see Unspooled cover: Daughters of the Dust, Mulholland Drive, Touki Bouki, and either of the Tarkovsky films.

[topaz osprey]

I'd like all those tbh.

[silver skiff]

Following on from this discussion, I would love to see Unspooled look at the They Shoot Pictures, Don’t They? list, which was made by compiling tens of thousands of best film lists into one list to rule them all, and to my mind is the ultimate top film list. https://www.theyshootpictures.com/gf1000.htm

[topaz osprey]

Touki Bouki is one of the S&S movies that I have at 3/5 on Letterboxd. I remember throwing my hands up watching it after awhile realizing that I was culturally unfamiliar with a lot of its imagery and symbols. Offbeat avante garde tone poem type movies usually aren't my bag. Paul and Amy could probably notice a lot more about it, and I can't think offhand of many movies they've done like it on the show...maybe Easy Rider...sorta.

[true geyser]

I watched Touki Bouki last year and felt like it could be seen as a 5/5 movie, but I couldn't see it myself and needed more viewings + an explainer for me to get there.

I felt the same way about 8 1/2, another S&S movie.

[night forge]

IDK how often they do these lists but maybe a good compromise would be to have a list for greatest "recent" films that are 5-10 years and younger that can qualify for the main best of list after that

[topaz osprey]

I felt that way when I first watched it--in high school. Now, I'm not so sure? I've watched it a couple times in the last 5-6 years, including one theatrical showing. Some movies kinda require a certain type of active watching for me to easily track them. But then again, I've watched more Fellini and documentaries on Fellini and read some articles so I am more familiar with his career and work, so that probably has to inform my watching it. I'd never seen La Dolce Vita until recently. I imagine that's quite a strange movie for somebody that hasn't seen lots of 1950s and 1960s European and Italian especially movies.

[dark basalt]

I thought I had become quite knowledgable in the world of finer films but seing the top 100 and not recognising a whole bunch of them was a bit of an awakening. Perhaps it is partly my film intellect feeling threathened but when even film nerds (not necessarily myself) doesn't know a lot of them it does feel a bit wrong. It becomes a list for a very small crowd. This includes Jeanne Dielman, even if many "casuals" felt Citizen Kane wasn't that good it felt like a heavy weight of film that almost everyone knew of and felt worthy of it's place in many ways. But perhaps that was from being number 1 for a long time and in 20 years Jeanne Dielman will have the same feeling.

With that said I do hope the bring out the old dice and go through the ones not being covered already, I think the biggest joy from I felt from this podcast was randomly going into old films that not many already had thoughts or opinions about. I liked the feeling of exploring.

[night forge]

Citizen Kane is an interesting one, for sure. It was pretty much forgotten after release for many years until it was re-evaluated in the mid 50s, largely due to critics creating awareness with loving essays.

I personally feel like this list isn't for "casuals" and I don't think it should be. Most people might have heard of Citizen Kane but how many have actually seen it? I think it deserves to be on this list but I also feel like most people have just been told that it's the greatest film of all time and they just go with it.

Just looking at the list, I'm actually surprised at how many I've seen, a little over half. There are about 20 or so I'd never heard of before but I think that's a pretty healthy number.

[true geyser]

I don't remember if it was Unspooled or a different pod I listened to but they said that this S&S list was partly responsible for putting the spotlight on Citizen Kane in the first place.

So Jeanne Dielman could very well occupy a similar spot in the film cannon over time.

[dark basalt]

Not many may have seen it but almost everyone know about it and had rightly or wrongly widely been accepted as the best and therefore felt right seeing it at the top. When a film very few have even heard about it feels a lot more questionable ( have not seen it yet so opinion from myself). I don’t think it should be or casuals either but it can’t go too far in the other direction either. I feel the list flirts a little with parody of itself territory, at least the critics one. The almost complete lack of comedies and how many slow dramas are on it is perhaps a warning sign.

[night forge]

Jeane isn't an unknown, though. It's been quite popular amongst critics and film nerds for years.

Wasn't it on the previous list, just lower down? It's not coming out of nowhere

But yeah, as mentioned above, Citizen Kane wouldn't have been widely known as the greatest film ever if not for lists like these.

Films gotta gain notoriety somehow

[lucid seal]

Jeanne D. was on the previous list.

I think I'm now more relaxed about these film lists, i.e. to see them as a list of films that I'd missed.
It's also important to read the reasons that the person/group put a given film as no. 1, because context matters. And then decide if that context matters to you personally

[fierce birch]

I've seen 47, which is better than I'd expect

[abstract scaffold]

i have 74, which is less than i've seen on the BBC's list of the 100 best american films, more than their list of the 100 best foreign language films and akira kurosawa's 101 favorite movies, and the same percentage as the BFI's list of 50 films to see by the age of 14

[turbid tangle]

S&S revealed the next 150 or so. As I expected a lot of "missing" stuff was real close. PTA and Spielberg both with a few entries.
https://www.bfi.org.uk/sight-and-sound/greatest-films-all-time
https://letterboxd.com/bfi/list/sight-and-sounds-greatest-films-of-all-time/

[true geyser]

Interesting! I was surprised to see Melancholia and Petit Mamen. I loved them both but its hard to imagine that enough people had them in their top 10 movies of all time for them to place in the top 250.

[turbid tangle]

I feel like Melancholia is seen enough, but Petite Maman (while lovely) does surprise me. Super cool to see Posession and Videodrome in the last group of 25 tied films. Love those weird ones.

[wet wing]

long live the new flesh 🫡