Pvp/pve class rebalancing suggestion

[stone creek]

Please open the file to review, and feel free to suggest anything you think is relevant. Don’t just say 'yes' or 'no' without any explanation. I'll be moderating this thread, so trolls or anyone without constructive input, please refrain from commenting.

[pure yarrow]

I think your psy takes are bad. They keep adding more movement speed, which is already doing what you're saying. Just having the couple house npc for speed gives you 5% not including the couple buff. Also people keep saying this about crucio, but crucio only does about 33% of a melee hit. It's not that insane, that if a full dex ranger (which is the most overpowered class in the game right now) hits a psy with no rm healing him, he will die. This should be the way it is.

[supple sparrow]

I believe rangers have too much access to block pen;

Before, you'd argue that the difference between psys and rangers is that psy bombs dont get blocked, but now you can't even use that argument. Rangers will auto you 3-4 times before 1 bomb reaches you, and 3 of those shots wont be blocked anyways.

Rangers are a way better version of psykeepers, with an AoE CC (that can't be holied) and much better own peel (Dark Illusion).

[ocean sparrow]

Can we get map adjustments before we make class balancing, rangers are strong but more players and not enough spawns overly inflate number due to projectile speed of arrows and tab targeting, with more spawn options the ranger scoring falls off by that alone.

[stone creek]

Already suggested, nothing more i can do 😬

Feel free to suggest anything if you have an idea. As mentioned, I don’t have knowledge of all classes, which is why I’m asking for your input, everyone. Just to clarify, we’re not looking for comments saying what’s wrong with the current suggestions. We’re looking for help to get the suggestions right.

[woven notch]

This game has 2 big issues. Statcreep and WAY too much Crowdcontrol.

BP: PvP: Adjust ASAL, to have slightly higher reliance on STR to encourage STR-focused builds over STA. With this adjustment, BP would remain a top-tier class in both PvP and PvE.

*BP's don't even play STA builds u already reach 110k HP with 0 STA.

Ranger: (2.) Decrease the dmg on charge-shot in PvP by 10-20%.

*Rangers hardly ever use charged shots thats not the issue with this class lol.

*Psykeeper has been op for 2 years now because of all the CC that exists so the bombs just almost always connect.

Now how you actually fix pvp:

• Stop the statcreep instead add utility to weapons and not more %HP and DMG reduction.

• Nerf Ranger and Psykeeper DMG so both are forced to play with less STA

• Nerf BP Hp on Hp gear. 110k HP with 0 STA on HP? Really who balanced that?

• Buff Scroll of Holy cooldown/change the whole mechanic or nerf every single CC skill. example on holy system: add a 1 second crowdcontrol immunity to the item on top of the effect

** the amount of CC that exists in the game is unreal and makes it very frustrating to play melee classes**

• Nerf Blizzard stun probability (way too much CC with a ton of DMG is just not healthy)

• Remove Prevention from PvP entirely.

• Remove Pet swapping from PvP.
  This will stop abusive strats like Griffin, Dragon, Fox Grace and indirectly nerf Bps asal dmg.

• Maybe time to take a look at Unicorn eh? This item has been a nightmare for classbalance for so long for already mentioned reasons

The classes that currently struggle also all benefit from these suggestions.

[stone creek]

Please

[autumn oxide]

please do NOT increase YJ damage in PvP. this would result in unhealthy damage output again and too "easy" oneshots towards the carries (psy/ranger/ele).

i do agree with above mentioned statcreep and cc adjustments, there is way too much cc, and little to no counterplay to it once holy is on cd

nerf overall damage output from certain classes (hello again ranger/ele/psy, mostly rangers at the moment)

my suggestion for jesters blast: make it castable on myself, instead of having to target something (also btw a target dying with the bomb on it doesnt actually explode, nice bomb right)
this would enable cool DI plays for pvp aswell, and actually punishable since DI ends on damage dealt (bomb duration 4sec)

i agree with the range increase for YJ skills in the list, even tho 30% might be a bit too much (i guess that would need testing, if that even exists?). YJ´s should have to come close to you to assassinate you, otherwise there is no way to punish them

also hope this channel doesnt become a meme again

oh, edit: give us a bigger siege arena finally. please

[pine badger]

For YJ, I strongly agree a PVE 1VS1 DPS increase is long overdue, it is currently amongst the lowest DPS, which is a bit unfair, given there is no AOE.

In regards to PvP, I think a bit higher STR scaling ratio would be ideal - could boost hop and the rest of the skills i.e. overall dmg output. Also, I agree to make bombs useful atleast in PvP - it has a higher range than other skills so could be used if dmg was somewhat relevant. Also agreed with phirai, a bit of a higher range overall could help - currently it feels like we need to deep dive to cast our skills, and thats more like a suicide.

Also +1 on buffing the CD on Holies & Arena Size.

[sly pollen]

Holies would be a lot more functional if they had a 10s cd but gave you a 1s of cc immunity

[iron nymph]

If I where to give my own take on this.

I would like to give an overall nerf to most classes rather then buff.

Slowing down siege.

Currently there is too much dps. Slowing down siege would overall benefit everyone as well make more room for future expansions.

Making alot of buffs without an overall defence increase and self healing increase would really hurt.

[fossil narwhal]

You could Nerf rangers by adding more crit resist items or making crit resist better. BPs wants that ranger nerfs because if rangers get nerfed, no one else can kill them especially with 15% magic resist shield +10% magic resist knuckles. make them choose. Counter Rangers or counter Psy/Elems. You can't have both thats OP

[narrow rain]

Psy: Lower dmg, don't touch the Crucio nor the speed of the bomb (MAYBE BUFF THE SPEED OF PSYCHIC BOMB and Demonology) Since they are not useful whatsoever inside siege, and this would also change the idea of psys identity of "just spam spirit bomb"
Buff 1v1 dmg in PvE because its dog and remove the need of having max mp to have max dmg

Ranger: Some sort of "Fix" for DI?? Idk how but it's broken af, Charge Nerf? Block pen fix? Because it's way too much

BP: the thing that Angmar said I agree with

Ele: Kinda in a good state? Maybe nerf the stun chance on Blizard?

Jester: I don't think a dmg buff is needed since you need to make sure it does not become unfun for the other classes to just get insta
Oneshot all the time (start of universe) BUT give them some sort of mechanic where they can have a higher dmg output by doing X Y or Z

Knights: They are in a great spot, they do not need anything in any regard

Blades: Some sort of fix for PVP no clue in general

Rm in a good spot? Maybe remove prev from PvP (not sure about this one) = Would also be a nerf to bp

In general i think any kind of stealth is overpowered in games, and I think it's extremely unfun to play against if there is no sort of counter (if you look at Throne and Liberty PvP you can see everyone that goes invis but you cannot target them, you can aoe them tho)

[pure yarrow]

Rappelz, gala's other game has this item: https://rappelz.fandom.com/wiki/Eyedrops

I think position lag needs to be dealth with in order to introduce obstacles.

[raven hatch]

I saw that there was a discussion about including obstacles in the Siege arena. These would indirectly nerf Rangers and Psykeepers (essentially) in PvP. There used to be a central obstruction in Siege arena but players wanted it removed. What say ye ?

[tiny orchid]

Because you get stuck on it, greatly increasing position lag and getting you killed.

I don't think they can do circular hit boxes.

[raven hatch]

What if it's circular, rather than square ? Smoother corners basically

[pine badger]

I abused them in pc version to protect myself from arrows so I would like them added back - BUT I think universe has more position bugs / teleports etc. so not sure about that one.

[tacit pecan]

For the RM, if contribution works as I believe, simply giving the RM credit for the damage dealt through HC would be healthier

As for Elementors, I think they deserve some more 1v1 capabilities, as it currently stands they are basically excluded from the only end-game pve activity beside dungeons aka Giant Hunting, especially considering how much elementors rely on coral weapons past lvl 140.
I also have the same opinion for BRM: when you reach lvl 140 if you want to continue leveling at a decent speed, you need a Coral weapon, but your low single target DPS doesn't really allow you to farm Giants on your own

[supple sparrow]

I agree with Kipsu, in the sense that, we should be adjusting classes with nerfs instead of buffs, so that we're not power creeping ourselves

[tidal remnant]

• make vital not rely on DI
• increase dmg of deadly swing so deal bigger dmg with extended combo

• decrease max range
• decrease max dmg of charged shot

✅

• decrease asal dmg

• increase psy bomb speed
• increase max range

✅

✅

❓

[wispy egret]

Knight -> make charge a knockup

[jagged mural]

Give RM's HC+MoonBeam back

[tiny orchid]

Put a cooldown on heal rain, honestly. Things will get much more interesting.

[iron nymph]

In terms of PvM balancing for my main class.

Knight

• make taunted mobs not able to change agro for 5 seconds after being taunted

• Turn Powerswing into a DoT skill
  (Remove knockback all this does is make them change agro if your with someone else or push them out of your aoe anyway)
  (Knights lack aoe dps late game)

[crimson oak]

i dont think knights lack that much aoe dps late game, you have access to waterbomb and reflect
if anything jesters need a change to their access to aoe more than any other class

[severe raptor]

[shell kettle]

I’m surprised that so few outside the YJ class recognize how much YJs need a buff. A quick look at server siege stats would make this clear. The challenge, though, is that any time one class gets a buff, there’s always backlash from others.

As a YJ main, the problem isn’t their damage—it’s the severe penalty for going full STR. Other classes don't have this dilemma to deal much damage. YJs have one of the lowest stamina multipliers, cannot use shields for magic resist, and have very low base magic resist. To hit 45-50k damage, YJs need to go full STR + switch to STR pet and be dangerously low on HP.
If people are so afraid of just increasing damage, suggest to modify one of these:
-Boost HP per stamina or boost base HP.
-Add magic resistance
-Increase deadly swing damage
-Remove reliance of vital stab w/ DI as above mentioned
-Jester blast castable on self - great suggestion

Rangers are clearly overpowered. Their Nature skill gives them massive attack range and magic resistance, which is unfair for a non-mage class- don't even wear shields. Even with just 100-150 stamina, Rangers hit incredibly hard, and full dex is more of a luxury than a necessity for securing kills. Furthermore, this class has one of the best stam:HP scaling in the game.
Suggest to modify one of these:
-Reduce Charge Shot damage (10-20%).
-Decrease Nature's added attack range. Remove magic resistance
-Lower block penetration, as it renders defensive stats ineffective in PvP.

Remove Prevention

SB damage relies more on INT.

[twin meadow]

RM bias here. It seems every update or new release of something, damage and HP tends to outweigh healing abilities. Perhaps relooking the INT ratio to healing (and maybe moonbeam update 😉 )

[supple sparrow]

XylloS said no troll posts, there's 0 chance you're being serious with this one

[ocean sparrow]

It’s not a troll post, if people are wanting to gut rangers damage to the extent being said and not offer some sort of counter balance to where we can survive anything while still being able to do damage you might as well just delete the class from the game.

[limpid juniper]

Just take the ranger blockpen selfbuff away, I like the block punish from 30% to 20% too but thats enough imo Nerf psy crucio in pvp also.
YJ could maybe use some hp scaling but id be very careful to not boost their damage too high

[shell kettle]

So kinda like YJs? Needing to go full str to deal substantial damage and have little no magic resist. Meanwhile rangers can shoot 13-15k with 60k hp?
Ain't no way Rangers can say with a straight face that their class is fine while saying that the YJ class is fine.
Ranger has additional attack range, insane block pen, better stam scaling, has DI, has MAGIC RESIST, can go high stam and still deal a good amount of DPS.

@limpid juniper If they don't wanna touch damage, at least give YJs extra beefiness to at least be able to go full str.

@fossil narwhal Uhhh

1. Rangers have insane range,
   can hit targets from a very long range. Risk is low.
2. Rangers have high stam:hp ratio
3. Rangers can run 100-150 stam and still hit 12-14k. Didn't you say so yourself?

That's actually a fallacy. They don't have all the information to make necessary changes. Most don't even realise that there is an imbalance until people get riled up.

Common denominator of those opposed against changes: Rangers. Meanwhile everyone who doesn't play Ranger has
something to say about them. 😂

[fossil narwhal]

You want to remove Magic Resist on Rangers but want to add it on a YJ skill.

That's why its better if the game doesn't involve the players in their buff/nerf decision making. Everyone wants buff on the classes they main and nerf on classes they're having a hard time with.

They have all the information they need to make the necessary changes. Let's leave it to them.

[slim pecan]

I’ve played ranger in pvp since the start, it used to be one of the worst classes and now is arguably one of the strongest in pvp. Yet at the same time it’s the most unenjoyable it has been, both to play and to play against. The only thing you need to think about is position. You have flip, stun, silence, di, fastwalker, counterattack etc but you don’t “really” have to use any of those as tab and auto attacks are more than enough to score points and points is what matters, right? It’s very easy to be good on ranger right now, it’s also very easy to be bad. And it can be hard to differentiate between the two. A lot of it comes down to how siegemap is and how it is being played.

I enjoyed ranger the most when close to nobody even brought it into siege(like prior to pvp sets) as it was deemed too bad as you could only really use skills to do any damage, and even that damage was bad. You just used your kit to cc the enemy and provide that little extra damage to secure the kills for your team.

Does ranger damage need to be toned down? Yes. Multiple ways people have suggested to do it. Just don’t overdo it.

And I’m dreaming here but make skill ranger viable somehow again, and “Autoshot” being the only viable damaging skill is not enough. The problem with skill ranger is that it scales off dex(and even the dex scaling is very bad compared to the dmg is gives). And if it does scale off dex then the auto attacking ranger enjoyers can abuse the power of the skills between wrecking people with autos. Which is not what we’d want. Like make the skills scale of anything else, I’m happy to go full STR or INT ranger if that makes the skill playstyle even remotely viable.

[ocean sparrow]

Decreasing casting time on some skills maybe 🤞🏼

[ancient comet]

what do you mean blades can use 10 runes? like they can use 2 attack+10% runes and 2 def+10% runes or do you mean there will be more runes added to the game with more effects like lifesteal/increased mp/fp...edit*yes i know they have 2 weapons but blades have a lot of things that dont overlap between weilding 2 wepons so clarification is all im asking for....Edit2: basically 2 of everything not like 10 different runes all at the same time as more are added to the game in different dungeons? aka a blade with 1 atk+10% rune in each wep would get +20% attack?

[sly pollen]

every weapon can hold 5 runes.
blades can wield two weapons and they didn't do any balancing mechanism like they did with weapon bonus only being active in the mainhand or ulti stats on blade weapons being halved so they just get the full benefit of 10 runes

so yes if they can get their hands on two attack runes and put one on each wep theyd get 20% atk

[novel tiger]

Elementor:

Elementor can deal decent 1v1 PvE damage with the right skill and element (~600-700k which is significantly higher than psy).
In more crowded servers like Lawolf, Elementor can easily kill a lot with a few aoe skills. By siege stats, Elementors got significantly more MVPs and scores across crowded servers.

Psykeeper:

For PvP rebalancing, character's moving speed has been a lot faster due the the personal/couple house NPC and the island cloak, Spirit Bombs can be easily outrun in siege, especially in servers that play sieges in alliance mode (which should be prevented from happening with new mechanism). So I think the speed of SB should be slightly increased considering the faster moving speed of pvp players.

For PvE rebalancing, Psy's aoe ability is quite strong and only second to elementor, but its 1v1 damage is so low even with perfect 25% SB awake LC Wand, so a slight buff on its 1v1 ability should be executed.

BP:

For PvP rebalancing, BP benefits the most from the gear switching system. a decent BP can deal around 90k damage using asal and switching back to stam accessories & HP obsi suit to get at least 85k HP and it can still deal decent damange with Belial Smashing. This makes BPs extremely hard to kill consiering its high magic defence and high stam to hp conversion ratio. with the introduction of new weapon jewels, BP have become to OP.

[fleet vessel]

Jester is far worse of course, but Knights aren't particularly good at AoE dps. BPs can have reflect damage too, and so can Blades or they can use a second water bomb weapon.

But what's the worst about AoE at the moment is how essential water bomb is. Knight, BP, Blade and RM all just deal incredibly poor AoE damage at 140+ if they don't have access to water bomb.

[maiden reef]

Something I agree with. However, I'd go a step further:
Change general PvP modifier from x0.6 -> x0.3 (all dmg is halfed in pvp, regardless of class)
Add a general PvP modifier for Healing skills
x1.0 -> x0.25

1. this change doesnt affect pve in any way
2. the change is to prolong fights ( longer fights = more decisions to be made -> theoretically more skill involved as there are more situations where you can mess up)
3. the change is to break potential stale-mates where 1 rm on both sides can result in no one being defeated, yet all combat should result in either an attempt to flee or defeat

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BTT:
Generally speaking; I'd refrain from buffing/nerfing anything related to pvp before there has been made extensive research in how high the impact of obstacle-less arenas is on the classes in question. From my experience, most of the rangers strength comes from that fact. Change the environment and they plummet. Balance changes have been done many times already, yet have they been effective? I claim no. And continuing the same things that have proven ineffective is pure madness.

[crimson oak]

I mean if we werent to consider waterbomb, yeah id agree with you
Knight aoe damage is really damn bad
But waterbomb exists and im dying on this hill that any class WITH waterbomb can outdamage/aoe a mage class WITHOUT waterbomb under the context theres more than like 10+ mobs
Thats just how overpowered waterbomb is, and its exponentially better the more damage instances you can utilize to proc waterbomb even more, going back on when you mentioned other classes have reflect as well (via shield awake or other means) but typically youd have your tank (ideally knight) taunt everything anyways

That being said, the craziest part is i have no interest whatsoever in playing jester as i am a bp main
But it is very blatant that jesters are in some dire need of an adjustment or change to their accessibility of aoeing
Its unironically good to wear a crap bow and cast arrow rain and switching back to a typhoon just to proc waterbomb lol but at that point wheres the immersion to a class specialized in using yoyos

[fleet vessel]

All AoE damage leaning on Waterbomb is a problem, and your AoE damage is fine when you do have access to it. I just meant to say that Knights when it comes to AoE leveling are not better at triggering it than the other classes and you could argue they are worse at triggering it than all other classes but Jesters. Except maybe in dungeons where Knight tanks reach the point where they can tank with a Coral much easier than other classes when they tank. But in a group of 8 players, these extra Water bombs from the tank's reflect are but a small bonus.

[jolly bluff]

Removing prevention for BP is a little bit cruel I guess.

[maiden reef]

I'd try a different approach for aoe actually.
In my opinion, the problem comes from everyone being able to gather as much as they like. At that point, everything collapses into damage being the only and absolute metric that matters.

Therefore; I'd like to see this:
Every AoE skill gets a "limiter", a value that describes how many monsters can be affected at any given time at most.

High dmg classes like Psy and Ele would get a lower value than a knight for example. A knight would for example be able to fight up to 30 monsters at once with power stomp, while an elementor can only attack 15. To make this change meaningful, the "herd" effect needs to be removed. The result: dmg numbers stay the same, but cast-counts become different. Dmg alone will have its importance reduced.

[frozen frigate]

Subject: Fine-Tuning YJ DPS Balance for Competitive Viability in PVE

In the current system, the DPS comparison between BP and YJ has grown from a small gap to a significant disparity. At present, BP's DPS sits at 492k compared to YJ's 429k, reflecting a ~15% difference, while in the past, YJ was much closer to BP in DPS with only a ~4% difference (185k vs. 178k).

To preserve the original design balance intended by the developers, while compensating for this drift, we propose a minor adjustment to YJ’s AA factor. By tuning the AA factor for Yoyo from x5.3 to x5.7, we’d introduce an ~8% increase, which would help bridge this gap and test are needed. Based on preliminary test calculations, this adjustment YJ’s DPS. Therefore we need to adjust the value until the DPS mark around ~473k, bringing it closer to BP without overhauling existing systems.

This targeted adjustment maintains the game's structure and origin design, ensuring minimal maintenance or extensive rebalancing as the game evolves with new weapons and sets. Testing on the server could allow us to fine-tune until we achieve an ideal balance, preserving both YJ’s viability and the integrity of the original DPS dynamics.

Since this is for purely AutoAttack it won't affect PVP at all

[brazen prism]

Same input here with @pine badger

For PVP, YJs damage are far behind already. It did not keep up with the new items we have for now. Maybe, we can up the scaling for HOP/VITAL and other skills that might be useable inside the siege. No need to increase maybe, hp or stamina balancing, cuz we already have a dark illusion and I think that’s too much to ask.

In terms for PVE, somehow based on the notes I strongly agree.

[limpid juniper]

Whats HoP Damage at? 50k? 60? Im talking maxxed and not bum gear. Increase it too much and we are back at DI Oneshots. Gotta keep in mind people already ask to make some other classes worse, buffing YJ at the same time makes it better twice in comparison of what other classes will get. Dont make them op again id prefer hp > dmg buff for them, make some other skills useful outside of hop too

[faint hatch]

Give berserk a str based time scaling

[maiden reef]

Unicorns really are way too much.
Look at the screenshot. I was once asked by Cameron (former DEV) for feedback on the stats of pets before they were introduced, this was my reply:

---

Given that I told em all the way back, yet it was still added the way it was, I can make the claim, that there are indicators that "our" devs are not fit for the task when it comes to anything balance related, as seen with the Jester buffs which were void after just one vertical update.

[shell kettle]

With a golden yoyo w/ at 7-8 pvp/7-8 atk, 12% hop, +5 jewels, 75 str pet, full str maybe 46-48k ish. Way more on single/ no reduct.

Agreed on the HP scaling so YJs can go less sta and still sustain decent. Opposite for Rangers and Psys. Shouldn't be able to hit that hard with 100-150 stam in the build

To those who participate in siege. What's up with the disparity between YJs and all the classes tho? As a primary scorer/killer/assassin, they haven't been performing well. It can't be a skill issue.. so most yjs are just newbs in this logic?

[pine badger]

YJs combo depends on DI which was nerfed heavily. It may not affect rangers much, because range already gives you a safe spot to attack and you use DI to defend yourself or make smart
Plays. But, For YJs tho DI is part of the main combo; that getting a nerf over a year ago (duration and cd) made the yj combo much weaker and accessible - as you have very limited time to use your combo and can be used less times per siege. Increasing HP could also be a solution but i think that defeats the unique characteristic of the class. Increasing the dmg scaling will anyway allow YJs put some reasonable sta for safety or go glass cannon and try to dive the enemy team for the 1 shot kill if they decide to play full str which is highly punishable hp wise (also 1 shot is not really close to being the case, its only really applicable if you manage to catch someone else in his glass canon moment). All in all, there are only 8 classes, a few of them are already in a good state, for sure we can manage to correctly balance them 🙃

[woven notch]

I'm also so for much for something like this. Fix the core issues of the game first such as statcreep and overstated mechanics. Then you can adjust the classes if needed. Will also make the balancing process way easier.

[fleet vessel]

This would be a pretty good solution and would compliment the melee's slower gathering speed.

Only issue here would be water bomb since that's a skill every class uses and it's the majority of the AoE dps.

[woven notch]

Another thing that could be done is blocking Pet switching in the siege arena. This will stop abusive strats like Griffin, Dragon, Fox Grace and indirectly nerf Bps asal dmg.

[maiden reef]

Switching gear in siege in general is a bad idea and only exists to give more reasons (gear) to spend money. Analyzing the field, transfer of information and decision making are parts of what people speak about when they talk about "skill" gear switching however removes this for the most part, effectively creating an environment where skill matters less. And if skill matters less, then luck takes its place or even worse: determinability.

[main holly]

Only one thing to change is add some magic/crit resist at Elementor side. Meanwhile all Jobs got shield/ buffs for that.

[faint hatch]

in games like these, where there is an obvious lack of skill expression, new mechanics for each class would greatly differentiate their strengths. here are some of my suggestions:
for yj: putting their whole pvp combo on the action slot and making it so that every successful hit amplifies the next.
for bp: asal should not be a 1 hit, that is extremely op for a point and click game like this, instead i suggest that we keep asal's damage but apply it over time while giving the enemy a removable debuff that reduces healing
blade: increase the range on silent strike and decrease the cooldown, also increase duration of berserk by giving it time:str scaling
psykeeper: rework aura burst to, instead of the current one, give every cast a chance to double cast, this would be more in line with the current elementor skill of resetting cooldowns, for pvp: crucio spell's reflect should scale with int while the time should scale with sta, also reducing missile sb's missile speed would be a very welcome balance change.
knight: tanks should have a kill threat, without kill threats, knights would just be a walking dummy. 1. add an aoe skill that amplifies all damage taken by opponents around the knight with a long cooldown, 2. add an execute with a % execute threshold, also another long cooldown spell.
rm: no suggestions
ranger: for pvp, give an incentive to charge their auto attack while nerfing their continuous attacking.
elem: no suggestions

[stone creek]

Pvp/pve class rebalancing suggestion

Just a reminder: this is a post about class balancing, not about PvP accessibility for players

[solemn zephyr]

only speaking for blades :

1. blades in pvp having 5 extra runes wont change anything in siege. their problem is they cant reach a target - same with knights. more runes will never change that. they have to go all in for a kill but then have no way to get out. blade/knights have never done well in siege, so its obvious they need more than just runes.

2. berserk cooldown needs to be removed. theres literally no reason it even needs a cd... maybe 5 sec cd, but 1min cd for what???

[wooden dock]

I don't really have much to add for the pvp that hasn't already been mentioned but I'm some what on the side of that BP:s pve dps should be increased the DPS u get on bp compared to knight / YJ even Ele isn't nearly what it should be IMO.

[severe raptor]

Speed up jester auto attack animation speed by like 5-10%, that will inherently increase their global 1vs1 dps on PvE.

[woven notch]

I find it interesting how people comment on Blade PvP but we don't even have an actual sample size because there are hardly any Blade players in PvP. Blade has multiple gapclosers and really good stats on dmg and hp gear. If there were enough Blades in PvP they would probably struggle with the same thing as other melee classes and that's the overwhelming amount of crowdcontrol that we currently have.

[rocky fable]

Change the scaling for more hp. They also need to do away mr and replace it with def as a whole. Att / magic power aren’t the same thing

Att does not equal mr % for %

[maiden reef]

Flat damage reduction of any kind is mostly bad for every game. It's an admission that the developers don't have their mechanics under control.
There are more mechanics which works in exactly that manner though.

Attack % works like this: C x ( 1 + X ). This is fine if the term is meant for x >= 0 primarily.
But not for effects which are meant to reduce something.
Starting at the default (C = 1), x = 1 ( +100% ) causes the result to double. But if x is -1 then, then C becomes 0 (100% loss)
To have 'em equal, these kinds of effects should work like this:
C x ( 1 + offense ) / ( 1 + defense )

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Also;
Happy we are back to censorship again. And no, removing my post does not change the fact that even the Mods suggestions are bad and that he/she doesnt have what it takes to usually even be allowed to make suggestions.

[rocky fable]

Blades issue is the game engine. It’s the hit on move. We tried everything with Cameron and it just doesnt work. That’s why you got skills so unless they scale those it’s not worth it. Adding speed to the game hurts the class more.

[supple sparrow]

For Knights, maybe Guillotine could be looked at, make its speed on par with spirit bombs, and buff the numbers to where it's a viable option to use

[rocky fable]

BP get everything from every stat. They don’t need buffs. The game needs tuned down.

Magic classes suffer drastically with mr shields in the game little alone adding more mr into the game.

With the hp pools getting bigger for an ele I can’t nuke anyone what so ever since you cannot run full int and have 0 hp in pvp with def gear you go hybrid you loose the play style of high risk high reward.

Not to mention you have no block or anything and die in 2 shots to a ranger. With the chance for block to do damage there isn’t really any win win here for them. Increasing hp scaling would help and adding poison cloud to have a - healing debuff would be a massive game change making hybrid more useful for debuffing. The issue is that all skills don’t stick debuffs and is are down to chance makes them pretty much a slap in the face.

Not sure who created that list but maybe play the classes first?

Happy to have classes get their time in the lime light but there is zero. Zero. Balancing in this game as the person who was to do it didn’t bother

Game needs to change to fix the issue for pvp rather than fixing things or changing things. Like Brandon said arena with 6 or 8 spawns and increase in time since life’s stack would be a start.

[stone creek]

This suggestion was made based on players feedback. Once again, if I’m here asking for your opinions, it’s precisely to adjust it before creating a final version.
Regarding the size of the arena, there is already a suggestion on this topic https://discord.com/channels/778915844070834186/1300597088349982730

[rocky fable]

Everyone wants a balance change to their class because it’s under powered. That is not how you balance a game and this just adds fuel to the game with stupid changes that then breaks the whole dynamic.

Classes should be good at one point and suffered in another that’s why you have a load of them. You can’t just have jesters saying oh I don’t have much dmg like I did before because hp is now 30% more let’s just add damage. You need to look and say you have stats from all types of gear in tank and dmg for hp boots so u should go lower hp for dmg and you have a kit to di

Not just let’s add more damage.

This is the reason the game is in this state because we have zero balancing and it’s not periodic.

It should be done every month or so and classes like every other game get nerfs or buffs to things. If it is to op then it’s scaled back but what we get is a cash shop event nobody needs.

The issue is the balancing at the core of it needs done not threads on what people think should happen.

I understand you think this is helping but it’s really not. It’s adding more unless and unneeded view points of people pushing their own bias opinions
To get what they want

[woven notch]

That's not true. I'm playing Bp myself and I suggested multiple nerfs to it despite the class not being overpowered like Ranger/Psykeeper. Some others also suggested core changes to the game balance. They just need to ignore mongoloids who suggest Jester dmg and Psybomb range buffs.

[supple sparrow]

saying that this thread doesn't help is the true waste of time. You can tell throughout the messages who's being biased and actual good suggestions. It is healthy to bring this kind of discussion to the community, and just because we write something doesn't mean the devs/whoever will follow the suggestions to the T.

That being said, as someone who's sieged BP since Mushpoie release, I agree with asal nerfs, there's no reason I should be asaling 110k.

[crimson oak]

Definitely shouldve split this thread into two, one for pve and the other for pvp
You cant even tell when people are talking about pvp or pve changes unless they stated pvp/pve specifically and alot of the comments gets convoluted

[trail birch]

I feel like tackling both pve and pvp at the same time is a bit much unfortunately. My only thoughts on pve is along with what kips was saying earlier about classes needing nerfs overall. I personally think the blade dps differential is too high (basically 50% more pve dmg) granted it’s only at max levels but that’s a problem too. Most of my other thoughts deal with practically altering classes or metas to make the classes feel more unique. Right now the block +hp meta alongside every 1v1 class doing crit and crit damage is a little lackluster. Defense needs a buff and there should be more utility type items or scaling to offset the desire for just crit. I feel like YJs should have some sort of “crit over 100 converted to CD” too if they intend to keep the crit/cd meta without any changes as imo a class with no other choice but to 1v1, the damage is just not that good

[shell kettle]

I play YJ and think it is way too underpowered in the current meta. You think YJ is fine then? How do you explain the performance of these "killers/scorers". let's make your server an example then so you have better insight. Check out the average score of the YJs. Is that skill issue?

[autumn oxide]

the solution to YJ´s is NOT more DMG tho. what is so hard to understand about it?
i know you play YJ, so do i. giving our class more damage TAKES AWAY the fun from EVERY other class, trust me.
you YJ mains need to stop tunneling on damage increase and maybe should actually play your class.
YJ is not ONLY an assassin. YJ has way more in his kit than the typical "hit and run jester" playstyle, how i like to call it.
also points in siege dont reflect anything at all. in the current meta you could even hop 60k, but it doesnt matter since a ranger/psy is shooting 54378 arrows/bombs and will end up getting the killing blow in most cases anyway. and you get zero points for it
i would love my main class to be OP aswell, like everyone else ofc. but giving our class more damage is 100% not the solution, i can promise you that
and yes, youre right. YJ is very underwhelming at the moment. but the reason is for sure not lack of damage. its the circumstances around us we have to deal with

[umbral condor]

5 spawn instead of 4 to prevent spawn kills (like in mushpoie siege 🥺) and a bigger arena to nerf rangers, or nerf the rangers spell "force of nature" delete the magic resistance. 🙏

[sour wigeon]

[stone summit]

By Arbitor:

You can see from siegestats web there are least blade players and blades have least kill distribution. This is because terrible performance of blade in siege. Since blade is close combat class it exposes to much more danger compared to ranger/psykeeper/elementor. Blade dmg rely much on normal attack but enemies wont just stand and wait for blade coming. blade has to do many combo before normal attack(like silent strike + armor pen+ cross strike). It cost many times to do combo, thus other players has enough time to kill blade, let alone the existence of holy scroll will always interrupt blade combo.

In conclusion, blade is fragile with normal atk build and lack dmg with skill build. 10 runes slots means double cost too. However it cant bring blade double power up. and most of players cant pay for one runes, not to mention double.
So I think blade really need to be buff in siege.

Here is my opinion:

1. Remove skill dmg reduction in blade skill berserk, which give more chance for skill build blades.
   2.Decrease performance time of some blade skill such as spring atk and cross strike. Increase cross strike dmg since it is blade ultimate skill but with very low damage.
2. Make vice-hand weapon skill bonus work, at least work in a ratio of main-hand weapon.

[umbral condor]

I think the problem of blade is the cooldowns of his skills

[maiden reef]

A larger arena won't nerf rangers, rather it is beneficial for them..
Also, touching Nature is a horrible idea. Rangers ARE meant to be mage slayers. Removing the magic resistance (only) is equivalent to removing the blades 2nd weapon or the jesters increased crit per dex

[sweet obsidian]

Blade have many problem in siege since the class rely on skill combo and auto attack it takes time for them to build up damage overtime and target can heal through it in between damages. Blade also indirectly nerfed by the tab targeting system on siege since it is melee range the moment they close the gap between thier target they are most likely be the sole tab target of the teammate of their target.

[sharp star]

people are forgetting that flyff pvp is gear dependent
tuning the damage output of this or that skill or offensive/defensive capabilities of this or that class is difficult and your feedback tends to be subjective because some players minmax and optimize their gear while others don't
sure I don't think it's fun that a bp can oneshot me with asal but I most likely can work around that if I'm focused enough to realize that it's about to happen and switch to defensive gear and hope to survive it
maybe the balancing should revolve around what roles the balancing team expects the classes to fulfill and the dynamics between them, and try to keep these dynamics while keeping in mind that people change gear according to the situation they perceive.

[golden pecan]

Pve needs balance between set classes, there is often only 1 good option for sets in pve, and usually there is one mandatory ultimate bonus (for exemple cast speed on psykeeper or elem) which is so exepansive to get that if you get it you keep it.
Another pve issue for all classes is the absolute need of PREMS for anything you do (dungeons, xp 1v1, aoe) and prems are so expansive that you have to plan 1 full hour of use, which leads quite often to non playing or disconnect and play something else to save up money.

[umbral condor]

, the size of this arena is perfect for the rangers, from the middle they can hit someone on the borders and vice versa. Thinking that a bigger arena is better for rangers, is a bit ridiculous. But it's true that if the arena was smaller, it will be a nerf for them too.

[maiden reef]

Let me explain it like this:
If Area(Arena) - > max! Then usefulness is always greater/equal than any other given smaller arena and vice versa: the usefulness is lower/equal the smaller the arena becomes.

These 2 statementa are true for every ranged class. The exact opposite is true for every melee class

[faint hatch]

giving the mercenary class a 3% speed boost will not do anything, i suggest for blades; give rending entry a charge count amd increase the range of silent strike while also decreasing the cooldown; this will allow blades to close the gap or escape a lot faster. For knights; give the knight class an execute for pvp with an appropriate execute threshold, remove target selection for taunt(forgot name) for both pvp and pve, and another change for pvp would be to make enemies around the knight take more damage, this and the execute should both have long cooldowns. Without a kill threat, knights are just walking practice dummies. Without enough of a gap closer, blades would remain forever unviable in pve.

[severe raptor]

Not really, both wilds set and coral set are viable for pve on most classes, both with their strong points and weaknesses. That is more than enough.

[umbral condor]

Let me explain it like this:
If Area(Arena) - > max! Then you can run away from a rangers without go in to another team and die into another rangers or something else. So more the area is big, less they can autoattack everyone from the backline of his team.
I hope you will understand

[maiden reef]

I understand. So good even that I can see the errors in your argument.

You are saying that a larger arena = more area where range classes cannot reach (dead zones, safe zones, whatever you may wanna call em)

However, I say that these dead zones create a niche as it reduces competition between range classes. As a result; more range classes will enter pvp blocking all of these zone that were freed up. Consequence: nothing changed in terms of threat for melees. However, more area and a constant # of people = lower player density which will inevitably act like a warning system for range classes, as it will now become obvious if someone is charging at you. Melees lose some to all of their surprise element

If we decrease Arena size, too much competition between range classes quickly causes their attack radius to overlap. In short: range classes will start to fight each other more frequently = more chances for melee plus smaller arena = less distance to cover on top.

Overall, there is no benefit for melee classes in larger arenas. It either doesn't matter or is straight up detrimental. And the opposite is true for range classes

[ocean sparrow]

the spawns are the reason the rangers are putting up crazy numbers right now, yes they have good damage number but the no space to regroup and getting tab targetted off spawn is the major issue with many guilds and 4 points

[umbral condor]

Unfortunately the game is not melee class who have to kill range class, so i don't know you expose this problem it's in every games, you talk like reduce the size of the arena was the solution, however we absolutely can't do that for one big reasons the "AoE" blizzard boomburst, merkabah etc... even the spawn asal will be a big problem.

[maiden reef]

It was you who started this whole "change arena size" thing to help melees. I have merely shown that increasing the size does the opposite. My demand is not to make them smaller however, but to build multiple, distinct arenas which are randomly selected on guild siege day(s), that are build in a way that that favor's either melee or range

@ocean sparrow Camping the spawn point is a different topic. Heck, compared to the. Status quo, it'd be better to have players spawn in at random locations with a protection from being attacked for either 2 seconds or until that player performs any kind of action (item use, heal, attack,....)
What you describe with asaling someone at spawn is - once again - a result from this game being highly deterministic by design. And the predictability that results from that is unhealthy for every game that isn't strictly turn-based

[fossil narwhal]

I’m a ranger. Bigger siege arena size definitely makes it harder for rangers. A lot of rangers kills come from players running in the middle and the reason why those players are in the middle is because they dont have space. Imagine having 4 guilds holding those 4 portals. It's not risky for rangers to hit players in the middle you could just free hit til you kill the player.

[umbral condor]

It wasn't to help melees, i think it don't change anything for melee to enlarge the area, as a melee if you want to push on a distance, you just have to flank by the middle we aren't in league of legends rangers can't hit and run 😂. It was to nerf the rangers because this is a big problem in siege, thanks god, all the rangers from fwc are on asians server because when there is 3/4 rangers in the pit it's just unplayable. For me when they use boom burst in dark illusions they have to lose DI, and the bird has to be visible it's a bit broken in engage.

[woven notch]

The only thing that helps melees is getting the amount of crowdcontrol in order and changing/reworking Scroll of Holy or the whole mechanic.

[umbral condor]

Only blade and knights need a buff, bp is ok in siege no ?
I think blade just need less cooldowns on his skills and knight need to gain some movement speed

[maiden reef]

CCs as they are + holy are indeed cancer for the game. Vital X and RefHold are also just as bad.
But no, changing just that wont really help melees either, at least not to the extend you expect.

What does help melees proper map design. Melee excel at close combat, so the solution is to force range players into it.
How? With a labyrinth map for example. One with short and twisted corridors.
Multi-level maps do also work.
So do generously placed obstacles and environmental hazards.
But plain / free maps? Cant get any better for range classes. The current design is clearly biased in favor of ranged attackers.

[woven notch]

Bp is basically high risk high reward gameplay right now. Yes you can do a ton of damage that kills 90% of the players but you also have to run through 500 cc skills. You are almost always going to die if you go for an Asal that is also reflected in siege statistics. Bps are on average trading their life for a kill. The only thing Bp has going for it is way too much HP on HP gear and the option to do a ton of damage if you are willing to swap your pet. Which makes you incredibly squishy and considering how much CC there is in the game you often don't even reach ur target.

I mean you have Bps in your guild ask them how fun they find their class 😄

Some people act as if Bp is overpowered despite the class almost never overperforming. Which declassifies it as anywhere near of overpowered.

My initial suggestion tackles all the points that make Bp frustrating to face but also why playing Bp is frustrating at the same time.
#1303489841429872732 message

[umbral condor]

Some want to reroll Jester, it's the same damages but in dark illusion 🤩

[languid trail]

Totally agree.
Also Billposter is only good with extremly time limited powerups and nearly perfect equipment, if you dont have MP Flask and Christmas Cookies your dmg goes so much down, that you cant kill anything other than classes on dmg equipment. Starting a new billposter without those powerups makes you even less useful than a Blade. Rn with perfect equipment you cant even kill buff ringmaster on tank equipment. So Billposter is in an extemly akward spot rn, and actually does need a Buff OR those powerups I mentioned. Billposter is a worse tank than knight and any other skill deals almost 0 dmg.

[young basalt]

Buff Jester ✅✅

[umbral condor]

Are you asking to have the same hp has a knight with 105k asal and a multiple skills with damages ?

[supple sparrow]

BP is the last class that needs to be buffed, asal needs to get nerfed.

[languid trail]

No. Billposter is not that good without those Powerups, also you asal 120k+ on Double Reduction if you have very good equipment and most classes with little STA stated are already not killable

[woven notch]

Bp doesn't need buffs it needs to be nerfed in some aspects while other classes and mechanics need to be nerfed even more than Bp. Same thing applies to Jester it doesn't need buffs but other things to be nerfed.

[ocean sparrow]

BP’s success relies on coordination with team to the fullest extent, majority of ranged classes don’t go tank gear unless being rotated out anyways due to wanting the persistent damage. I like the numbers obtainable by BP right now even without the power ups

[fossil narwhal]

You want to make BPs more OP 😂 you dont need to asal tanky players if they have full HP. If you play BP and your timing is on point no one would survive that asal. Target selection and timing is the key. Theres no point in being tanky if you want BPs to 1 hit knights and RMs with tanky build 😂

[ancient comet]

Could we make piercing serpent skill a gap closer for bp to use before asal so they can have a dash similar to blades? would that partially solve bp problem of just running straight at targets?

[woven notch]

Reducing CC would be way better not only for Bp but for other melees as well. A gapcloser wouldn't really work because u would either have to swap to DMG gear and then gapclose which is very risky or you gapclose and then swap gear to asal which would be very clunky. Most of the current balance issues really come down to crowdcontrol being way to overpowered. It's not like it's hard to kill a Ranger or Psy but the issue is reaching them.

• Bp gapcloser could be good tho if it provided something outside of gapclosing e.g a stun. That way Bp could be played as a frontline/support. Currently you don't really have viable tools for that.

[shell kettle]

"Some want to reroll Jester, it's the same damages but in dark illusion " is the most ridiculous statement in this thread next to Honcho asking for longer SB range and faster projection,
Bro what? A jester does not deal close to the damage of an asal against double reduct. AND the most important thing to consider here is that vital + hop combo can get healed by pills and with an RM heal raining on auto. There is no way you deal anywhere close to the damage of an asal. An asal you cannot heal. The only scenario that a jester can equal an asal's damage is if the other char is standing there, doing nothing and not having an RM. Ridiculous

Nutella is the only sane BP player here. BPs talking about buffing their class here just plain outrageous. BP mains should only talk about nerfing their class and nerfing the ranged classes.

BPs have the luxury of:

1. Prevention
2. Shield wielding for magic resist
3. Staying in double reduct the WHOLE TIME and still dish out the maximum amount of damage
4. The 2nd highest STAM scaling in the game

Yeah sure ask BPs in other servers. Look at Burudeng and Mush. The server "struggling" the most seem to be Totemia.

[woven notch]

Mvp destribution isn't the best metric but I guess if Bp was so overpowered the following statistic should support ur claim.

Observe how some classes stay balanced or get slightly underwhelming and how others go from slightly overpowered to broken beyond repair.

Your points about STA scaling and prevention were agreed on multiple times already btw. Blade also has insanely high stats on STA and DMG but you don't see them perform very well do you? Probably because of some core issues PvP has. Which were also mentioned here already.

[sour wigeon]

Let’s see if any of this gets pass

[maiden reef]

The difference between a blade and a BP is that Asals dmg is instant, whereas the blades damage is spread over time.
And instant "death" = minimum time to none for the target to react/counter -> minimal risk for the BP.

Heck, you could nerf BP hp to Elementor level and they'd still outperform blades. In fact, HP/STA is far less relevant than most people make it sound.
Asal minimizes time, AAs do not, that's all there is to it.

[digital bobcat]

I absolutely agree not to increase the Jester's attack, but I would make some adjustments to compensate and make it more effective.

1. Vital Stab: Make it usable even without DI, but with a high cooldown that resets when entering DI. If you’re not in DI, you'll have to wait for that cooldown to reuse it. Of course, if you use it in DI, you’ll need to wait for either the cooldown or the next DI. (This might be a bit much, but I like the idea). So in this case, it’s true that the Jester would deal more damage through a combo, but it would be riskier to engage during a team fight without DI.

2. JesterBlast: I would make it either auto castable, as already mentioned, or slightly increase its cooldown and reduce the bomb's timing to around 1-1.5 seconds to allow opponents time to react. Anyone hit by the explosion would be stunned. This mechanic could add more utility to the Jester's skill kit.

3. NERF RANGER.(Op block pen, op range, DI and Fast Walker same as yj, A lot of CC, Op and consistent dmg, 70k+ Charge dmg it is a joke?)

[maiden reef]

Regarding Ranger:

• they do not have any more than other classes -> cannot be OP by definition -> block penetration itself would be OP
• Ranger have by far the lowest AA dmg, this is also true for pvp. By your claim, any 1vs1 AA dmg would be op, including Jester
• I do agree that ranger is completely overtuned. Rangers were never meant to be be crit spamers. This was are purely community driven change and proofs that what they want should be ignored for the most part. The Rangers role should be a completly different one. Being a DD is not what they should be for.

Regarding Jester:

• I always thought that it would be nice, if "jesters blast" would actually make use of the delay in a positive way. Once the bomb has been applied, the next dmg taken makes it detonate. However, if the timer reaches zero by itself, then the explosion radius would be massively increased and the dmg as well (at least +100% dmg and +50% radius). A use case would be to apply the bomb on a player which tries to regroup with his team mates. By letting him "escape" on purpose, you can deal a heavy blow to the entire group
• Vital Stab: have it be usable outside of dark illusion, but if used with dark illusion active, the cooldown resets immediately and procs a bleeding effect. ( 1 tick per 0.5 seconds, uses 10% of current dmg, lasts for 5 seconds)

[woven notch]

Rangers have the least hinderance to utilize the blockpen tho. Blockpen is indeed a crazy stat or rather there is way too much of it in the game imo. I saw the numbers a Blade can do in PvP it's almost double the damage a Ranger can do but a Blade could never survive long enough without the range safety obviously.

Ranger is supposed to be a consistant Dps class or a support/tank hybrid but with the current numbers its easily a burstdmg autoattacker lol

[maiden reef]

No, rangers were never meant as a to be damage focused, not even a tank, but a support class with a specialized role for hunting mages specifically. However, by community demand, rangers have turned out to be the way they are. So why exactly should anyone listen to "solution(s)" proposed by the community if they are the reason things are the way they are? And dont come with "they have learned". They only think that they have learned (at best).
And that's why I think that this entire thread is a gigantic waste of time as it is almost entirely a collection of demands. And demands are, what the devs should not listen to at all... never..

Your example with blades dealing aprox. double dmg also shows that a rangers damage isnt even the problem, so anyone asking for a ranger dmg nerf immediately misses the point. Neither dmg nor range nor the amount of blockpen are the problem.
It's the layout of the pvp arenas (which becomes especially problematic when you consider real world prize money being involved - FWC? -) and how certain mechanics work in the game.

By the way, every class has equal "resistance" towards using block penetration. Aside from weapon piercings and ultimate rolls, you get that stuff by using the items you'd normally use anyways, unlike block, which you have to builds towards most of the time and accept trade-offs in return. (generally speaking)

[faint hatch]

give less incentives for rangers to spam their attacks and more incentives to charge their attack. rangers can charge their attack up to 4 charges and release it for double damage, for pvp good rebalance would be for their spam attack to deal less damage, have less block pen, apply only 70% of their total icd, as you charge it up you get more damage, have more block pen, 120% of the total icd and maybe even a knock up effect

[ocean sparrow]

Highest scoring ranger on tote today 12th place by the way

[sour wigeon]

5th spawn is needed

[shell kettle]

Yes and 50% of the top 10 in Mush are rangers

[meager sage]

Skill issue

[ocean sparrow]

50% of tote were psys, so we nerf psy?

[sly pollen]

and if you look at the logs you'll notice all but kiwi had their points giga padded by ghost feeding early

[fossil narwhal]

Burudeng top 1 and 2 are BPs. Nerf BPs too,

[sour wigeon]

5th spawn will nerf rangers

[umbral condor]

The current siege meta is horrible, on mushpoie like totemia, if the first team loses, all the guilds wait and kill the 5th. Astral does not play this way so as not to disrupt the gaming experience. Please expand the arena and add a new spawn. In fact we cannot change the mentality of the players to stop spawnkill because it is a good solution to have the crown.
Before fwc, totemia players asked for a 5th guild because 1v1 between inglorious and attitude, and Ruined and Eminence was boring. But now that Astral is here, we're getting Spawnkilled 😂

[shell kettle]

People have said to either lower base dmg or make sb dmg more int focused so yes

[fossil narwhal]

It reflects on how guilds play in their server.

• Mush: sits on portals so Rangers can easily hit the players in the middle since they have no portal to go to.
• Lawolf: They play 5v5 alliances so 50% of their top 10 are Elementors.
• Totemia: Same, long ranged psys kill a lot of players in the middle. that's why its easy for rangers/psys to get kills.
  Instead of nerfing a class how bout we change the siege arena first. That will make it better for everyone.

[maiden reef]

Classic example of a suggestion made by people who have no clue how the game works.

1. (base dmg) Will hardly do anything
2. (in focused) Will instead buff SB

[digital bobcat]

I disagree. In my opinion, it shouldn’t all be focused on siege. With the new 1v1 tournaments, it’s frustrating to duel against a ranger, especially if you’re a YJ. Not to mention those who enjoy the arena. It’s a class that needs nerf. You don’t even have time to get close before you’re already dead.

[limpid juniper]

cmon bru u play yj and di spam in arena talking about people having time to react while hopping 50k
if they overtune the nerf bc of trash opinions like this
I will say it again, a blockpen reduction (by 10%) is all we need.

Heres some math to back it up:

60% Blockpen (pre nerf):
6x 18k hit, 4x 6k hit = 132k dmg in 10 hits

50% Blockpen (post my nerf suggestion):
5x 18k hits, 5x 6k hits = 120k dmg in 10 hits.

Making a 10% blockpen decrease an effective 10% dmg nerf while also giving block some value back. Any additional nerfs is TOO MUCH. Also people arent even on the critresist runes yet, further decreasing the damage

[frozen frigate]

I don’t think rangers are a problem yet … Psy doing 15k bombs are more dangerous

[pine badger]

Rangers and Psykeepers are over-tuned. However, I do not agree with any sort of heavy nerfs. Slight adjustments should be the way forward. Rangers to do 10% less pvp dmg and decreasing the block dmg from 30 to 20; should be sufficient. Psykeepers decreasing bomb pvp and increasing it pve (10%) while also adjusting crucio to reflect a bit less dmg. Elementors are super strong class too, perhaps decreasing the aoe dmg taken subsequently by the ele while stunned by ele aoe stun skill (or some mechanic like that). Also siege arena size, will eventually benefit rangers the most as you cannot outrun arrows while they ll get full advantage of the max range for longer period of time.

[earnest notch]

Let me just put these here.

Charged shot damage - Yes the damage is good. However, it's not always easy to use as it's like a channeling spell that requires you to stay put. Most of the time before you complete charging, your target is already out of range.

Crit Spammers - Dex is the native stat of rangers and it is also what increases critical chance and block rate. Therefore, it is just natural that rangers capitalize on this, and because ranger skills just suck.

The only thing that you can put in the action slot is junk arrow, and as the name of the skill implies, it's junk. Also, every single damage dealing skill has no cast time sure, but has terribly long animation.

It will take approximately 8-9 seconds to throw 5 ranger skills. All of which has mediocore damage. And nobody stands still for 8-9 seconds in siege. If you do so, you'd either be dead or your target would be out of range and long gone.

Auto Attack Damage - Rangers have the lowest dps based from the dps chart that was shared by one of the moderators. Everyone can also clearly see it when doing dungeons (SR, Wilds, etc.).

Attack range - The job/class name is ranger. What's the point of being called a "ranger" if your range would just be the same as other classes? Ranger's attack range is also the compensation for being the lowest dps class.

Block Penetration - Every single class with good gears (which is about 90-95% of players in siege) can reach really high block rates. Even my pure int rm has 63% block rate. Imagine not putting a single stat point on dex and still have that high block rate?

During siege my block penetration ranges from 40-60% and still a lot of my attacks are getting blocked. So yeah, block pen is not OP.

For the longest time rangers received nerf after nerf. Some love was given when the arrow projectile speed was very slightly increased a long time ago. From that point nothing has changed with rangers. Crazy how the lowest dps class is labeled "OP".

[inner belfry]

As a blade it's a nightmare in pvp... no chance against the whole range fighters with their long stuns especially 1o1

[rose spruce]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=v3H6NnQLojs - well you do smth wrong if you only crit for like 4k

@earnest notch you're farming feeding guilds, why are you on hp gear?

[earnest notch]

Have you not considered that maybe I am on Hp switch when I dealt 4k crit?

Btw, this is the result of that siege recording link that you sent.

Edit: You edited your response and added that mention to make it seem like you considered I was on hp switch, but you actually didn't. Originally what you wanted was to troll for seeing a "4k crit".

Of all the sieges, you selected the one where I was the mvp.
Well, that's what you get for having an ill intention.

[narrow rain]

I'm sorry my guy, but whatever you are talking about it's nonsense, "ranger low DPS"?? My mans they do X2 the dmg of a psy, while being able to go afk in dungeons because if block

When it comes to siege, "skill ranger" do you have any clue as to what your skills do? Since all the skills you are talking about all have some kind of CC in them, weather it's silence, boom burst, triple shot and so on, it's utility skills not dmg skills, and they for sure have a lot of them, while being able to go into DI btw (:

"Ranger has received nerfs and nerfs"??? What are you on about, they legit only buffed it, so please do show me proof of this statement

For my final statement, I wish I did 4 k bombs in my tank gear damn, with the amount of arrows that rangers are shooting in tank gear compared to psy or ele, their tank setup is like 150 times better

Imagine complaining about the strongest class in the game

[rose spruce]

"Edit: You edited your response and added that mention to make it seem like you considered I was on hp switch, but you actually didn't. Originally what you wanted was to troll for seeing a "4k crit"."

i did it because we have a 30min slowmode here you ......

and to that, your siege is only farming feeder guilds. Do you rly have fun farming all those feeder guilds on your first life?

[crimson oak]

@rose spruce @narrow rain guys stop hes troll baiting lol

[wispy egret]

I was thinking about realistic balance changes for a while, take these with a grain of salt I guess

reduce damage across the board, 1shot meta is bad. Promote longer skirmishes
For example:

• remove ranger’s ability to use 150 wilds set and full sta, forcing them to use PvP set hybrid. Tankier, less damage. Nerfed but not gutted
• increase boomburst cooldown slightly
• increase di cooldown for rangers but not yjs

[fossil narwhal]

Well yea since YJs are str and theres no buff pang it would be harder for them 😂 if there’s a buff pang im pretty sure I can put up a good fight if I’m a YJ.

[reef sphinx]

I dont care about PvP so wont take my voice there.

But for PvE we need some buffs cause blade/knight supermancy in dps charts.

All other classes could get a 1v1 PvE dmg bonus.
Let the blade remain best damage dealer, but do double rangers and yj dps or triple mages is a bit frustrating.

Also my personal problem with ranger:
Who develop Nemo's Fury and why the heck it gives from +1.5 to +2 % crit chance. Change it to +DEX. PLEASE.

[twin meadow]

not sure how feasible the DI cooldown would be since it's an acrobat skill.

on a plus side, the new update might actually allow me to hit 30 minute buffs finally...

[solemn zephyr]

after pvping with blade for a month now, i see 3 major problems that needs to be addressed/buffed.

1. using all skill/cd to close the gap - all this for 1 kill and after this we have nothing to get away. and cant chase after anyone else because skills on cd
2. no defensive skills - exactly this, we get blasted by everything with no way to survive
3. requires someone to stand still for 2 seconds - realistically no one is standing still

buff pvp blades. they need ALOT more than a few number tweaks, every data that exists proves they have always been the worst pvp class.

edit @woven notch
you think 'blades stats are great by themselves' but does not mean they perform great in pvp, unless you actually prove it with evidence.
what you (1 person) 'think' dont matter. because all the data/numbers/players experience is that blades are both objectively and subjectively bad in a real pvp environment.
in the highest form of pvp in every game that exists - the best classes/characters are played and the worst ones dont. same applies in flyff and yet you're saying blades are great. NO.
what if the simple truth is: blades will never exist in pvp because they are just bad. other classes can do what blades do but safer, farther, and better.

[languid trail]

flyff pc blade has the ability to hit a player after they have ran away already for a few brief seconds

[woven notch]

this mechanic was removed probably 12-13 years ago tho, but yes until then it was possible and blade was way better than after they changed that

@solemn zephyr blade numbers are great and u actually have good options to engage and even get out but blade suffers even more from the amount of psy and elementor crowdcontrol

psychic wall in particular needs to be looked at it's the most disgusting spell in the game

[maiden reef]

Wild idea:
Grant melee weapons the ability to stagger targets if hit from behind-ish

[severe raptor]

Time to take control of 1 spawn

[shell kettle]

+1
But include fast walker too... Otherwise make DI and FW a jester specific skill. Unli range, fast walker AND DI? Jesters are the "stealth" class

Agree also w/ @limpid juniper

Rangers, psys and YJ definitely need prio modifications w/ the current meta. P.S. I'm not talking about increasing hop dmg for YJs cause that's what people always assume. Never asked for dmg increase here in suggestions

[languid trail]

i have a old siege video here where it still was possible, would blade much better but still not in "good" spot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpW_mldGRIg&t=289s

[stone creek]

Hey everyone, here is the updated suggestion, revised based on your feedback. ( Mind that this suggestion is more related to class changes than general PvP changes, i will do a separate one for that )

[wispy egret]

You’re deleting my post saying something pretty meaningful. At least tell me why it’s a troll post

I will repeat it. The community very obviously just advocated to buff their class and nerf other classes. Why can’t balance decisions be made by somebody who can actually make an objective decision based on data?

And secondly, balance changes should be iterative over time and not sweeping like this. Do you disagree?

[fossil narwhal]

Uhh. because mods are listening to players and not deciding by themselves. you wont see any other game asking players for buff/nerf suggestions.

The result is always bad. like what the mod posted here.

What I don't get is you're punishing DPS classes but you're inviting YJs to play auto atk by increasing atk animation speed and atk range. It makes no sense.

I'd like it when you were posting buff/nerf and surprising us. You have all the data there's no need to involve players. This sht is funny 😂

[stone creek]

Because i deleted and added back the new suggestion, nothing against you lol.
I’d love a Knight reword just like you.

[ornate oasis]

With those YJ suggestions. You might as well give them a permanent MVP. Not a troll comment just stating facts.

[ruby mist]

Most of these changes are terrible. The community has brought light to the issues on hand. I agree with Tosh, the balance decisions have to be done objectively based on data.

Everyone is out to buff their class and nerf the rest.

Out of the ~71 people in this thread only 18? have voiced their opinions. 18 people should not influence the decisions for the whole game. There are plenty of people who can't even voice their opinions because of discord rules.

[woven notch]

updated list:

Jester:

don't buff Jester dmg in PvP (with other classes getting nerfed it would only make Jester broken)

Ranger:

nerfs look fine but maybe buff their HP slightly so they could run more balanced ratios

Billposter:

nerfs look fine
remove Prevention for both RM and BP

RM:

nerf Healrain (with Psy and Ranger DPS getting nerfed Healrain will be way too strong)

Psykeeper:

Only add the INT reliance part of the DMG nerf but nerf Psychic Wall and Gravity Well instead

Elementors:

nerf Blizzard stunchance (100% is just very braindead and not balanced since you always stun at least 2-3 people with it)
nerf INT scalings but give Elementors more HP so they can run more balanced ratios

Overall changes:

Remove pet swapping from PvP

[twilit pine]

If suggestions are still open, can you please add a bit of movement speed to RMs? One cast of any skill and we're left behind by whoever we're supporting. Even just 5% would be huge. Especially with the file containing movement speed improvements to other classes.

[ocean sparrow]

• Holy change, sure hella CC in game

• Changing blocked dmg from 30% to 20% for ranged classes, This on top of the plethora of Ranger nerfs is horrendous

• Increasing YJ PVE with animation increase, cool.

• Buffing STR scaling, not necessary to increase for PVE anymore due to prior buff. Also kills the ranger class even further due to the high numbers already achievable by YJ main abilities.

• Increasing range of skills while also increasing damage, no

• Increasing of scaling on some skills that arent used as often as HOP and Vital, good change

• So we want to decrease ranger damage by 10-15% AND decrease block pen by 10% AND Reduced charged shot (which is one of the harder things to do when people are moving) AND reduce self buff.

(If you want to do all of this you might as well just delete the class from the game.)

• BP Nerf suggestions are fine if you weren't nerfing Ranger to the ground and psy some. Will not be enough for these BP Nerfs to be noticable.

• RM EXP Buff, Cool.

• Psy decrease spirit bomb damage, ok (I'd say give psychic bomb a little increase to make it a viable skill to use)

• Crucio decrease, I'll never not say no.

• MP Reliance, not terrible but scaling of spirit bomb might need adjusted depending on INT scaling if MP reliance is no longer need.

• Ele Stun chance, like this. (Maybe slightly decrease the INT scaling on a few of the AoE Skills)

• Blade buff, deserved.

• Knight buff, sounds good just because of holy cooldown increase.

[ruby mist]

Not a bad take on the changes. I will however disagree 100% with the Ele changes. Blizzard is the only stun skill an ele has. It has a 25sec cooldown and can be holied. Why adjust int scaling on the aoes? They have 14 and 17sec cooldowns

[ocean sparrow]

With holy cooldown decrease, maybe blizzard stun is fine but I do think that maybe just a little decrease int ratio ( ex- 5.7 -> 5.3 ) or something... nothing too drastic. Everyone is calling for longer more drawn out team fights and by decreasing the nuke that is Ele full combo's would help that significantly. You'd still be able to nuke just with a little less radiation at the end and a few stragglers with slight INT scaling decrease.

[sly pollen]

not gonna comment on pvp too much but nerfing stun chance on blizzard would be weird since its deterministic right now.

[fallow vortex]

It doesn’t make sense to decrease block pen and crit dps in pvp at the same time without buffing even just the animation for skill like triple shot… just bury ranger RIP

[sour wigeon]

Crit dmg is okay. Just block pene needs to be touch

[brazen prism]

I think the buff for YJ is too much. I’m a main YJ and don’t want to combo a player with a long range(If I understood the buff right).

Maybe this is doable:

AA long range - PVE only will not affect assasin skills.
Increase Attack/STR - PVE(will greatly help YJ) PVP - will increase a bit damage.
Animation Attack - PVE only
Deadly Swing - Cool
JB - Good with the skill buff.

Its a bit weird, when you combo a player in a long range(PVP).

[noble panther]

still though, why can't rangers put arrows when using the switch equipment thing from yoyo when inside siege arena?

[main holly]

Great maybe delete blizzard than ? If there will be changes with Blizzard than add extra magic& crit resist for Elementors or sta better scaling. Currently Elementor have 40k hp at dmg gear its definitly nothing. If there is changes with it than also give something.

[frigid coyote]

Nerf auto attack rangers and make skill type ranger playeable. So that we can enjoy it without just spamming auto attacks

[sour wigeon]

[umbral condor]

I agree if the holy cooldown decrease, don't touch the blizzard, but nerf the damages of the bigs aoe, and buff cyclone and maybe the single targets spells.
Elem full int is funny for no one, the targets and the possessors if the pov of QlQ are cut, i think it's less than 15 minutes every siege (still more than me 🤓)

[crimson oak]

Should remove berserk from blades and give it to jesters instead

[frozen frigate]

yeah i agree and no one reads the yj pve AA increase i wrote now they buff str in general overall people aren't reading actually what it means to buff str more, cause yj can go more STA and even do more damage .... in pvp XD

movement speed for knight okay, but why does blade has the same, but while it actually has mobility, knight doesn't, so knight should have atleast 5-10% movement speed

[blazing sage]

[reef sphinx]

All positive selfbuff could be just a passives but not sure if game support that.
At least all could be selfcasted like some of em are now.

Maybe some changes with skills:

1. Berserk (Blade)
   -increased duration
   -add some movement speed to it
   -grants "undying rage" when hp goes to 0
   (Undying rage buffs gives: hp cannot drop bellow 1; more blockpen, attack, movement speed and life steal for short time 3-5 sec;60 sec CD)

2. Add dmg selfbuff for psy (Mental Mastery)
   -increase magic dmg

3. Stanalogy (Psy) or other psy skill
   -give it chance to remove buffs form targets

4. Psychic Wall (Psy)
   -make it bigger
   -instead of speed debuff on collision make it an kinetic energy wall with cannot be pass by any objects in both direction (Projectiles, characters, some monsters/bosses skills)

5. Eye of the Storm (Ele)
   -add great elemental resists buff to self and close party members for duration time (15 sec)

6. Critical Shot (Ranger)
   -theres a problem with that buff, its great at low and mid lvles. But became underpowered at late game(PVE).
   Rangers are overload with crit chance.
   -replace it with some PvE dmg and block pen for example.

7. Circle Healing (Assist)
   -make it a buff with heals over time by little amount

[tacit pecan]

[Mod] XylloS should get a raise for shifting players' hatred toward each other, instead of WeMade

[umbral condor]

Psychic wall which can bloc characters, that's very intelligent to spawnkill easier in siege

[jolly bluff]

I think this would make sense for RM. Specially for RMs who always get left behind because of casting heals/gt/gvur. This would make RM much more effective in a way that RMs will still be surrounded by the team. Played several times as RM in siege, still get left behind from my team regadless of having velo/npc speed and coral cloak.

[limpid juniper]

Horrendous list, too many ranger nerfs, too many jester buffs

[weary tangle]

[ivory sky]

• more/better Merkeba scaling for PVE. Also a nerf to prevention affects RMs as well.

[fallow vortex]

💯

[gusty path]

RIP aa ranger

[reef sphinx]

+1. RIP rangers, and grats Jesters you goes into DPS VIP club next to knight and blades.

[narrow rain]

Does not change the fact that ele is able wipe out a whole team with 2 skills, i have seen multiple eles do 40 k meteor shower and around 35 k blizzard

Edit: @main holly why did you not just kill this Elementor before he wiped your team then? And this guys dmg is not even the greatest https://youtu.be/t-PSZYc9xIY?si=PCbUXx2t7iX5QKPz

And for the ranger enjoys, this is very fun and interactive gameplay, a lot of counter play is possible here: https://youtu.be/t-PSZYc9xIY?si=JIluzAzRNi78ZP5U

I do not know momokilla's gear but I was legit not able to do anything

[fervent quail]

I will only write about the jester part

• About Buff PvE: it's not a bad idea but, at lower level, it's too high buff, think it's better if it come with a skill 130/140 requirement

• About Increase ATK per STR scaling: it's same than buff PVE it's too high buff for low level and 80GS, better if it come with a skill 130/140 requirement.

• About Increase in Range: this is the best increase, idk what 10/15% do maybe that's not insane but it's good

• About Jesters' Blast : think this skill will ever a trash skill, after all this time I definitely think that no "buff" will be able to save him

• About Increase STR Scaling of Deadly Swing: increase this will be good

[main holly]

2 skills ? 😂 Yeah at Full int and Fox Grace so with that setup everyone is able to easy kill ele- dont be crazy with all that ele theorys. Also if u deal 40k meteo ( probably its with 25% meteo awake and Fire Element ) directly is impossible to do 35k blizzard- becouse meteo is better scale int to dmg , 2nd w/o Water in weapon u Are directly w/o right element , 3rd awake in weapon also is away. Really Idk from where u take that Numbers.

@narrow rain
I say u its not possible to do Both skills so high dmg from one person. Its just impossible to do 40k meteo and 35k blizzard. - its impossible really.

Also we can say psy is able to do 35k bombs with maxed gear and fox grace 🤷🏻

• also Idk why i dont kill maybe was cooldown becouse Elementor got cooldowns on his super high op skills and is Not able to spam everywhere bombs Like a psy

[rocky fable]

Ele is only good for a burst and that’s it.

Pc should do - healing on people with it

We dont have ratios to go damage and tank like other people and with the mr stupid way it works. We do no damage on people who have it on shields. Little alone with hp getting higher and higher and damage going lower and lower

Blizzard is fine as a stun as you get to do one good thing. If you go damage you get to blast 2 skills and get one tapped for 25k hp.

If they wana do something get rid of MR and make it defence scaling. And give us magic power somewhere as it’s 3% is like 10% att dmg.

Only dmg u get is someone without mr else your doing 15k and 20k Meto.

[urban hearth]

my opinion about elementors, you should :

• decrease INT reliance on big aoes by at least 15% but increase dmg
• instead of reducing the stun change on blizzard : it applies a debuff on all target that makes the next elementor's spell stun (so you can use your scroll of holly on both states and you have more time to react)
• fix the many bugs on eye of the storm

I also think that if you nerf BP and ranger a lot, you should nerf Psy more (maybe increase satanology cooldwn because it's very short) but also nerf jester

[reef sphinx]

Not a pro PvP like you guys, but it will be "out of a box" opinion.

Participate few kalgas, from my point of view PvP activites rely too much on a CS holy scroll.
Cleaning every debuff each 4 sec its too OP. Could be disable or way longer CD not shorter.

In replacement all classes could have a skill to break CC (Details different for any class).
It will benefit PvP and PvE aswell.

Also think a bit of PvP accessibility for others players (mostly for f2p), now entry "cost" are way too high.
Specific builds, prems, consumables, etc. Kalgas now is like: few pro pvpers spread destruction, meanwhile rest are just cannon meat.
As long more PvP options came to flyff, all wanna have some fun with it.
Resonable will be add a free PvP stat page with only activate in PvP activities (excluding open world).

[rose spruce]

I think balancing BPs is very difficult right now, some BPs still have enough MP Flasks + Cookies, with the change you would nerf the BPs that have no cookies + MP Flask even more. You should keep that in mind with the patch

[severe raptor]

Rangeur PvE is already super strong, u can't be asking for buffs ':V

[reef sphinx]

Do we play same game :D? Groovy next time look at dps charts more carefully. @narrow rain Yea I mentioned that in post before 🙂 I'm not like "BUFF ONLY MY RENGO", almost all classes suffer lack of 1v1 DPS.

[narrow rain]

Crys in psy dps

[severe raptor]

I do, @woven notch @dim forge and many others hitting atleast 850k+ stable dps with linked on Ranger seems quite alright, paired with the insane aoe dps in dungeons, makes for 1 of the most powerfull 1vs1 class, specially with how tanky and comfy the class is. Its the only class where your main 1vs1 dps stat(dex) is also your main aoe dps stat(dex) and also your main tank stat(dex). So, u literally get all in one, all of that paired with long ranged autoattack range which enables you to not get affected by bullshite that melee classes have to deal(like 360 degrees cleave attacks or desync on bosses), the class also have access to utility skills like dark illusion/fast walker which makes it great usefull in dungeons to clear the way or for other purposes. So yeah, i can see that Ranger is in a great state pve wise, and pvp wise lets not talk about it, everyone knows how strong the class is.

[reef sphinx]

Sure. Agree with overall. But if you extrapolate items they(Adri, Toast) have, to knight or blade they would do a lot more dps.
Also dont go so far with Rangers insane AoE dps its good as FS RM one.

I still think some classes could get a 1v1 DPS boost the gap between it just too big.

[fleet vessel]

But since 1v1 Knights and BPs don't have all that other stuff that Rangers have, they would just end up being inferior Rangers if Ranger got buffed to their level to be more competitive with Blade.

If a BP or Knight deals the same 1v1 damage as a Ranger while the Ranger can attack from a long distance, has an easier time dodging red circles, has super high parry and max block and hit rate in a +0 set with no other investment into it, has access to fast walker and DI while also doing substantially more AoE dps than the melee classes then there just would not be much of a reason for PvE BP and 1v1 Knight to exist.

When looking at endgame PvE Balance, I think only Jester is due for a buff in 1v1 dps. The others follow a pattern of making a tradeoff between utility for dps. Blades deal the most damage but don't really do anything besides that. BPs and Knights are kind of in a shared second place, having some extra utility and a bit less damage, while Rangers deals the least dps but are the most versatile and well-rounded class by a mile to make up for this.

And dummy dps is not the most valuable metric, endgame PvE content is pretty much dungeon running atm. And while Ranger has the least dummy dps, it also loses less of its dps by dodging red circles and dying. While also speeding up the dungeon with their superior AoE dps(compared to the other 4 1v1 classes).

[rocky fable]

No chance. You understand you get blizzard off and maybe 2 ape before your dead in damage get. Full int on grace is like 25k hp

Even hybrid you do no damage. So no leave blizzard as it is. If I need to play support then least o feel like I can do something stunning people

Issue is hp scaling and damage doesn’t catch up. The mr doesn’t help either

[maiden reef]

granted, bps should be above knights, because knights have no business being as good as they are. I'd advocate hard for 1vs1 being the worst way for a knight to play. Being a tank is their main duty, everything else should naturally derive from that. And yes AoE knight should be way better than 1vs1 knight imo because AoE is the only way to capitalize on their natural bulk.

And yes, dps is a horrible metric to balance against. You could even say; it's the n00b-trap, as only noobs try to balance around direct dmg increases/decreases.

[fleet vessel]

Well in all fairness I think BPs are a bit better in the DPS role than Knights. The DPS-charts use dummy dps and this doesn't account for BPs taking more advantage of HC or that Esna is simply better than Pain Dealer, these debuffs can deal a lot of indirect damage that won't show up on their DPS meter. They also have arguably the weakest AoE after Jester.

Though I don't think that is something that needs to be fixed. I agree that it makes sense that overall BPs deal more damage than Knights. However I don't think Knights would need to be lower either, I am biased towards Knights of course so do take this as you will, but all of Knights advantages and utility are not present when they assume the dps role. Knights make the greatest tanks but this does nothing for them if they aren't in their tank setup. In fact DPS Knights are quite frail due to Rage. This is in contrast to Rangers who have all their advantages as a pure DEX 1v1.

[severe raptor]

Rangers do more AOE DPS on wilds if u compare it to Rm, on other dungeons like SP/envy, their AOE DPS is +- equal. Rangers are literally the 3rd best dungeon AOE class with Rm's being a very close 4th place(obviously elem/Psy are first and second when it comes to AOE DPS in dungeons)

[rocky fable]

All classes should have a role or a self buff meaning you want quicker runs you take the extra class. Like ele has debuffs and crap dps but the damage from the debuffs others gains is a trade off it’s more over all.

They need to sort core issues before balancing classes. Said this time and time again. But everyone wants to moan about their class needing buffs and others nerfed.

Sort the basics first. Period.

[maiden reef]

100% agree. But the devs dont want to do that. They are stubborn in that regard, and instead rather listen to "m4j0r1ty 0p1n10n5" people have.
However, this is exactly what you shouldnt do. Majority votes have historically only lead to a worse - if not THE worst - outcome.

Personally, I'd start with defining an actual class role chart, where everything a class must be able to do is defined, everything that must must not be able to and actions to ensure that these rules are adhered to.

@fleet vessel Yes you will at least be biased a little bit.
My point is, that every class has a roles and ways to achieve these roles.
Lets call them "primary playstyle".
Then there are other ways to play "secondary playstyles"
These secondary playstyles are not meant to be highly viable. Their only purpose is to diversify how you can interact with class XY.
As a result, secondary playstyles should be way less supported, as they are not what that class is actually meant to do.
And burning your entire natural advantage with your primary playstyle to boost your secondary playstyle is only natural.
However, even then should that class not be able to catch up to someone else whose primary playstyle it is what you are currently trying to do.
Secondary playstyles are by design inferior/inefficient.

And the way I see it, that there should be no class whose secondary playstyle matches any other classes primary playstyle in performance. They shouldnt even be close. And for BP, that primary style is 1vs1, for knight it's AoE/Tank.
Thus 1vs1 bp should be clearly ahead of 1vs1 knights, and AoE knights should be clearly ahead of AoE bps

[ruby mist]

I'm with @main holly on this. It's a high risk high reward scenario. You need to be full int + fox grace and to be able to pump those kind of numbers. Which leaves you with 25k-27k hp at most. Even then that's iffy, I can't see doing 40k meteo/35k blizzard unless someone has the wrong suit elemented and or not in pvp gear.

I watched your POV and then looked at the stats. Most ele's in that siege got 2 kills at same time. A few got 3 kills at the same time and the most was by moneypls at 4 kills in a 2 second span, he graced and used all 4 of his big aoes.

@ocean sparrow Wanting siege to be prolonged actually requires siege maps to be adjusted to scale with however many guild are participating. The current maps are too small

[urban hearth]

I mean, if you reduced INT reliance but increase damagethis change nothing for hybrid elem but it makes full INT elem less ridiculously unfair
also I think an instant stun on a whole team is an absurdity

[ruby mist]

The stun can be holied, full int ele with grace is a high risk, high reward scenario. The ele will only have 25-27k hp. If there's a knight in the group the ele will lose at least 25% of their hp to pain reflect if not more

[rocky fable]

Again. You don’t get your combo with 25k hp off and ur combo and anything with mr you do zero damage like 20k Meto or blizzard

I’m happy to be high risk high reward but against people who have gear than farming people with none or battle pass then you do nothing.

[woven notch]

The issue is they don't have ppl who would have a clue to create a good balance. I don't even think they are testing anything. Many private servers had perfect or near perfect balacing in the past that allowed every class to perform well if you had a good player on it. So actually it's not that hard in theory if you just get the proper people for the task.

@maiden reef No clue which ones you played but there were multiple PvP oriented ones no clue if i can call names here without the msg getting deleted. Anyways you could pretty much take any class and have a balanced experience with it.

[ornate oasis]

Sadly they have mentioned in the past that they don't have the resources nor the man power to do such task.

[urban hearth]

the issue is that the risk isn't that big since most of the time full int elementors are spawning in the middle of your team or they use their blinkpool to close the gap with the enemy team and instantly stun they.
In both scenario, you the ennemy team can't react in time and even a knight won't change anything because reflect damage are calculated this way in PvP :
reflected damage = [damage that would have been inflicted before any reduction in damage was calculated] * [reflect damage stat (75% for the knight)] ÷ 8 | in practice it reflect less than 15% of any magic damage so it can't kill you even if you have 25k hp (you need to deal more than 160k)

[jolly bluff]

Hello, I bet to disagree on removing prevention for BP.
As we all know, BP was once an assist and having prevention is one of its base or foundational skills.
Possibly, the best thing to do about it instead of 50% recovery (PVP), it can be around 35-40% recovery (PVP).

One thing I would like to add here, BP has one of the lowest Critical Chance for PVE .
I recommend at least to have additional 5-10% Critical Chance in Asmodeus. This way, DPS of a BP in PVE can increase for a little bit.
Even with having the max critical chance on your LC Fist/Golden LC Fist/FOT and LC Shield (without using Pink Cotton Candy & Potion of Recklessnes, without using Wind A Cards and Angel Pet) you can only get like 91%-92% of Critical Chance. Even with the said value of Critical Chance, it's still not a guarantee that all of your AAs will be Critical Hits.

PS. main BP player both PVP/PVE

[maiden reef]

To my knowledge none came even close to perfect balancing. They merely broke everything to the point where it didn't matter anymore.

[reef sphinx]

You don't get my point. I don't want Ranger to be shine at top1 dps. All I asked is slighty increase all other classes 1v1 DMG cuz it start looking funny comparing to Blades/Knights.

[severe raptor]

Blades provide nothing, while other classes provide something in exchange to having lower dps than blade, except jester, on jesters case i would agree on a slight increase in the 1vs1 dps, every other class is fine pve wise.

[rocky fable]

Again you have 20k hp and random die. The trade off is fine however with mr. You do next to nothing.

[iron nymph]

do know guys what Xyllos posted is just popular sugguestions. not a list of whats happening

feel free to give your opinion on them tho but dont freak out XD

[woven notch]

updated list:

Jester:

don't buff Jester dmg in PvP (with other classes getting nerfed it would only make Jester broken)

Ranger:

nerfs look fine but maybe buff their HP slightly so they could run more balanced ratios

Billposter:

nerfs look fine
remove Prevention for both RM and BP

RM:

nerf Healrain (with Psy and Ranger DPS getting nerfed Healrain will be way too strong)

Psykeeper:

Only add the INT reliance part of the DMG nerf but nerf Psychic Wall and Gravity Well instead

Elementors:

nerf Blizzard stunchance (100% is just very braindead and not balanced since you always stun at least 2-3 people with it)
nerf INT scalings but give Elementors more HP so they can run more balanced ratios

Overall changes:

Remove pet swapping from PvP

[rocky fable]

Remember when Yonu did balancing. Yeah…. That didn’t end well. If it’s done badly then it’s gg

[fossil narwhal]

Thank god 😂

[stone creek]

Except the ranger part

[sour wigeon]

In coming ranger nerf

[fossil narwhal]

It's like you compiled all the ranger nerfs and approved them all

All good with some dmg reduct or block pene debuff but both will kill the class.

Same with YJ, attack range or attack increase but both is OP.

BP is good tho nerf them hp -50% asal -50% its good for the game @sour wigeon

[stone creek]

I'm just joking x), as Kip said its just a suggestion

[fervent quail]

Think need other way to only up PVE on YJ
(or atks change not impact vital+hop)

[wicked ocean]

i see that most of the class rebalancing suggestion is focused mostly on pve. i just want my psykeeper to benefit from debuffs on pve :c its the only class that not only does not benefit to elements like elementors but it also does not benefit on most debuffs because those debuffs only apply to "physical" attacks. psy used to be top 2-4 dps on old flyff. altho yeah pvp psy is hella annoying

[crimson oak]

PVE:
Jesters need a buff, either 1v1 or aoe or both
Blades need to be nerfed, they do way too much 1v1 damage and the gap only increases with every major patch

[clear lily]

If those proposals were the only considered changes, there would still be no use for Slayers (2hand Swords) for Knight. Why keep ppl ignoring the fact that there is a whole Set of weapons without any use in this game, as it does the same as 2hand axes; just with a worse STR scaling?

[hexed vessel]

RM:

• Adjust the EXP for FS RMs - perhaps adding 10% exp on top of base exp if a target is killed by 1vs1 and is HCed.
  is a good change but I'm worried if it's a better change for macro/bot instead of human since its too tiring to hc each mob on grinding

[cunning ember]

Speaking for Ranger Section only.

Those suggestions don't take into account many vital aspects of the game itself and are solely based on biased suggestions made by many. Here are the things in my opinion that aren't being taken into account and should be explored before even considering those wild nerfs.

1. Arena Size - If you are to review the VODS made by many, most of the points made by rangers are taken in the early stages of siege where there aren't enough space/spawn points for the amount of guild(s) participating. Rangers are able to stay in the centre of a team's "ball" and reach majority of siege space without being put out of position (spawn point to the left, spawn point to the right and open space in the middle). Therefore, Rangers are able to go full glass cannon with little to no consequences. If you look at the end stages of sieges where there are no more easy points to be farmed, rangers are not as effective compared to the early stages of siege as they are easily punished heavily for being out of position . By this information, paired with a little bit of critical thinking, you can deduct that the problem is not that ranger are "broken" it's the lack of arena size.

2. PVE vs PVP and Gear Cost - It's not a secret knowledge that Rangers are one of, or is the most expensive class to play out there. The cost of gear to DPS ratio for PVE is extremely inadequate. Meaning, I could be as maxed out as the game allows it to be and still be at the bottom of the DPS chart for AOE and 1v1 DPS in PVE. I could argue the same thing for PVP, a lot of the rangers that participates don't have average gear. These people have spent unimaginable amount of money min/maxing to be effective in siege. How do you take that into account in implementing those nerfs?, do you think an averaged gear ranger will perform just the same? How can you take a class that's already inferior in PVE and also make it worse for pvp which is the only thing they really do excel at; but only due to the environment of current arena for siege (REFER TO POINT 1 AGAIN).

3. Availability of Runes - Implementation of Runes is the new meta but hasn’t been fully explored yet and any changes right now is premature. Whoever has these runes are the strongest. Let’s go back to some Flyff history. Remember when Obsidian sets were scarce and whoever had these had great advantage. It is the same way right now. There are critical resist runes already in place that are quite effective in countering rangers but only a few people have it. How do you take the lack of critical resist runes in the server when implementing such premature nerfs to rangers?

I know this is just a suggestion at the moment but you are taking feedback from the community with little to no regards to the other aspects of the game which to me is concerning as the nerfs suggested might not be an accurate representation of what is needed to have a proper class balancing patch.

[woven notch]

Point 3 is such nonsense it's funny that's all it is.

The players who are performing well on Psy and Ranger currently all have no runes at all. And the couple players who have defensive runes against mages and Rangers perform the same as others who don't have them. It's a min max item that doesn't change the fact that Psys and Rangers are overpowered.

[rose spruce]

the crit resist rune is not as good as you think. @sharp star did some math and tests on it.
same goes for every other defensive rune, they're not as good as it seems. the only rly good rune is the attack one....

[reef sphinx]

+1

[rocky fable]

And magic resist

[pine badger]

However, I think, arena size will allow rangers to always abuse the max range, as people cannot outrun arrows. If a class may get a bit of a hit due to arena size might be (1.) psy as you can potentially outun bombs and win healing time; (2.) Yj as the DI only lasts for 10 seconds and within that time you need to run to your target and cast vital; and (3.) blades for obvious reasons

[balmy vapor]

I would like Elementalist's Firebird to have the same ball speed as Psychic Keeper's Mental Crush.

[fervent meadow]

There needs to be an overall buff for FS RM exp, not just for RMs that HC. It does not matter what level someone is, they basically always need an RM for buffs/heal/gt/hc, so I feel like fsing should always be a viable leveling option for an RM.

When the Coral map came out, I fsed for my partner, both of us level 141. He prefers to level 1v1 over AOE, and we all know how terrible exp was for 1v1s when the expansion first released. He would gain 10-13% an hour with amp/halloween balloon/exp event, and as an FS hcing mobs I would gain around 5% an hour with amp/halloween balloon/exp event. I agree hcing is very tiring, which is why a lot of RMs don't think it's a worthwhile way to level. Why spend your hours leveling HCing for a partner when the payout is abysmally low? You can get the same low exp by healing someone aoeing instead, which is arguably less taxing.

Is it the curse of RMs to FS your partner up to max level and then be forced to aoe alone if you don't want to be left behind until the next level increase? I really feel like that shouldn't be the case.

Edit: @rocky fable Saying FSing is lazy just shows you see all RMs are just heal/buff bots and not actual players lol. You completely ignore that having an FS is an essential part of leveling. I remember when the Coral patch came out, many people shouting/looking for FS, but all the "FS" RMs had already leveled themselves up to 140 via AOE, why would they go back to getting half exp as a FS? Once again, should all "FS" RMs be expected to stay behind in levels between level increases? Because they'll only be "needed" again when the increase comes out? You can just say you've never played as an RM, since you think it's so "easy" to be an FS. There's a reason people say it's hard to find a good FS, and it's because being an FS requires more focus and skill than just someone who can put on a 135 set and a bstick on their buffalt and press 1 for single target heal and 2 for gt every 1.5 minutes. Stop being lazy, try leveling with a real person and not your ftool bot :)

[balmy vapor]

If Holy is shortened, Blizzard's stun should be 100%. The cooldown is also long. Elemental's attack is high at the expense of HP. Even with HP pets, it's only 40,000.

[woven notch]

Yes because Blizzard is the only cc that exists in the game. The stun should not be nerfed because it's the only op thing but because of how much other cc exists. People really only look at balance as if their class is the only existing one.

[balmy vapor]

Rather than adjusting the balance by job, I think it would be better to offer players various ways to become stronger. What I'm thinking is that they can get status points from HERO quests. The level cap should be infinite. Equipment should remain as it is. Over time, the status points can be invested into stamina, increasing the player's HP. This will allow them to endure. Having various ways to become stronger, such as aiming for runes in dungeons or simply hunting to increase the level and become stronger, will make it easier to customize original characters.

[hexed vessel]

lmao rm is by far one of the busiest classes, whether it's grinding or other content. Lazy players wouldn’t even consider playing rm. Like I mentioned earlier, the upcoming change is a good one, but it's not exactly what we need, as it won't benefit us in most situations. When we talk about FS rm, you cannot ignore FS rm with AOE class since they're the more common type so why not just raise the exp an rm can get?

[severe raptor]

The strategy is to not lvl at all and just do 5f(7f now). By the time new expansion drops if u have been doing 7f at least 4/7 days of the week, u will be max lvl. But I do agree FS exp is dogpoop at higuer lvls.

[maiden reef]

So you want blizzard stun chance to go down not because of blizzard itself but because there are also other classes who fling around stuns?

[pure yarrow]

I think blizzard stun chance being 100% is fine. In competitive PVP you want deterministic skills. Imagine if boomburst only had a 50% chance to actually knock people up.

[woven notch]

updated list:

Jester:

• don't buff Jester dmg in PvP (with other classes getting nerfed it would only make Jester broken)

Ranger:

• nerfs look fine but maybe buff their HP slightly so they could run more balanced ratios

Billposter:

• nerfs look fine
• remove Prevention for both RM and BP

RM:

• nerf Healrain (with Psy and Ranger DPS getting nerfed Healrain will be way too strong)

Psykeeper:

• Only add the INT reliance part of the DMG nerf but nerf Psychic Wall and Gravity Well instead

Elementors:

• nerf Blizzard stunchance (100% is just very braindead and not balanced since you always stun at least 2-3 people with it)
• nerf INT scalings but give Elementors more HP so they can run more balanced ratios

Overall changes:

• Remove pet swapping from PvP

[maiden reef]

Wouldn't say so. Simply by advocating for it, there's proof that their deterministic character is more detrimental than beneficial for the game as a whole.
And of course. By granting guaranteed stuns you're effectively putting the game on auto-pilot mode. There is no more decision-making and the other player is more likely than not just going to throw up their arms and thinking "well, why bother, cant do anything anyways".

In general; the more impactful an effect is, the harder it should be to obtain. The more niche a skill the stronger it can allowed to be.
And stuns are an omni-purpose tool that fit every scenario. Therefore, stun effects should be the last ones to get a high, let alone guaranteed, probability.

And yes, boomburst only having a 50% chance would be way better for the game as a whole. Heck, I'd even go a step further and lower it to 30%.

@woven notch Just change asal dmg from STR x MP + C to STR x ( MP - FP ) + C

[pure yarrow]

You're talking a whole lot, but I disagree with you. Brevity is important when communicating with people. It doesn't make any of us think you're as smart as you're trying to sound.

What proof? You can't sit here and say "I have proof that X so I'm correct" without showing any proof.

By granting guaranteed stuns you're effectively putting the game on auto-pilot mode. There is no more decision-making and the other player is more likely than not just going to throw up their arms and thinking "well, why bother, cant do anything anyways".

You are once again making assumptions . Holy scrolls exist, positioning exists. Situational awareness is an important part of PvP.

Angmar, He's not though. I'm tired of someone who doesn't play the game anymore, and doesn't even play any other competitive PVP games giving advice about PVP.

RNG is bad for skill based PVP combat. You want situational awareness and reaction speeds. If everything is up to RNG why bother doing literally anything at all.

[ocean sparrow]

you cant think all 40 of those nerfs are necessary for Ranger

[main holly]

Nerf ranger but buff hp and than nerf and nerf and nerf. So many stupid ideas

[woven notch]

He is right tho. Blizzard can be used in almost every situation and almost always gives you value. The Holy CD doesn't change anything here because Blizzard essentially forces ur whole or almost whole team to use it. By the time your cooldown is back up the fight is very likely already over.

A good example would be Asal. It has a long cooldown and has 3 outcomes. I kill someone, I don't kill someone or I get killed while im exposing myself on squishier gear.

Blizzard just always stuns 1-X players while keeping a safe distance to your targets. (Not to mention it also does very decent dmg as a secondary effect to setup even more for ur team)

A healthy and more satisfying way to change Blizzard would probably be to decrease the cooldown by a good amount and set the probability to 40-50%. So you also get good value out of it without having a super long cooldown and it doesn't feel as oppressive for the enemy team.

@ocean sparrow I already mentioned previously it's kinda crazy how Ranger is getting hit more than Psy does but I think the nerfs are the wrong approach anyway. They should just revert the arrow projectile buff and then nerf blockpen. (I would still bet Ranger will be a top tier class even with the current changes)

[rocky fable]

Go away with the blizzard. Only thing we get to do you understand that right

[maiden reef]

None of them are actually.
Simple thought experiment:
Some think ranger damage is too big, so let's test this;
Imagine a ranger and a blade/jester/bp/knight for example. Have that ranger and other melee character stand on the exact same position as the ranger so both can attack each other instantly.
Then what would be the outcome? Probably the other player winning the majority of times. So.. why would a class which more often than not would lose the fight be overpowered damage-wise?

Imo, there is only one problem and that one universally applies to all ranged characters; it's their ability to freely utilize their range. What we need are smartly designed pvp arenas. With obstacles, walls, holes and such. Things which melees can use to take cover, restore some HP then proceed further.
Until these things have been implemented and evaluated, any dmg/range related nerf to any ranged class is wrong.

[balmy vapor]

I am against weakening the Ranger. That's because there is no number one for the Ranger. Its DPS in PVE 1VS1 is about 5th from the top. Its area DPS is also 3rd or 4th, so nothing outstanding. The only one I think is PVP, where it is currently No. 1, slightly ahead of the Psy-Keeper. However, PVP Rangers must have block penetration, which can't be used outside of PVP. In other words, Rangers who are strong in PVP are making weapons just for PVP. I think what makes the Ranger strong is Dark Illusion and Boom. It would be better to either lengthen the cooldown of the Boom or make its range the same as the Psy-Keeper.
And to make the game even more fun, how about increasing the HP of all classes to prevent instant death?

[frozen frigate]

---

748.37k DPS

492.53k DPS

SnS
456k DPS

429.53k DPS

2h
415,57k DPS (actual DPS)

390.67k DPS

If we all go by numbers than knight, jester, ranger are really underperforming in PvE

Blade being the #1 ,which is understandable, but 2h knight does less dps than SNS, than BP #2
Knight is simply put in the category of Ranger, Jester

smth is not right at balancing the gear/stats wise

[iron nymph]

Its not really even the range that is entirely the issue. It's the fact blade can't hit a target if they are moving at all. Will even worse for them if the holy scroll change happens (not really worried about it as no one plays pvp blade)

To make blade or a dps knight viable at all in pvp. Would be to allow them to auto attack other players around them within a certain radius. (Wouldn't be far) but atleast wouldn't stop them from attack as soon as someone takes a step back. @maiden reef

[woven notch]

Why do ppl post about pvp who don't play pvp? Rangers have a weapon just for PvP? Thats cool so does every other class. Not only do you need PvP dmg ulti rolls on most classes but also you are using LC Wand instead of Lamprey on Psy for example.

@iron nymph first the Blades and Knights would need to somehow reach their target through Gravity Well, Psychic Wall and that lv 100 Elementor skill. (All 3 are almost always present during a fight)

I guess the Blade can do it since he has dashes but a Knight should never be able to even touch mage classes.

[balmy vapor]

That's true. All classes needed to have PVP weapons. Sorry. I'll correct that. If you increase the speed of Blade and Knight, you should also increase the speed of Ringmaster. Just one heal will delay you.

[fossil narwhal]

Put stonehand for blades 😂

[iron nymph]

Knight already has that in the form of the Lusaka 2h sword

Doesn't reallllly help

[viscid aurora]

Increasing the EXP of the FS is good and necessary, although this EXP increase should occur for both AOE levellers and 1v1 levellers, but it is a step in the right direction in my opinion. But what I miss in the overall change is an adjustment to the damage from the RM. I am aware that the RM is not a DPS class, and it is not intended to be one, but if you compare the other magic-based classes. With the Coral update and the increase in cast time to 200%, the mage classes received such an immense DMG buff that Lvln is possible without any problems in Coral, even with bloody weapons. But the situation is different with the Ringmaster, who has been on the spot in terms of damage since Azria, as Merkaba always hits consistently (0.75 per second). From Coral onwards, the AOE RM with mediocre gear makes it almost impossible to level independently, but it definitely doesn't make sense. Therefore, a revision of the RM damage would also be necessary.

[maiden reef]

Yes, movement is a problem for melee builds in general. How about a stagger (every hit has a 30% chance for a micro-stun), if a melee weapon hits a target from behind? That's why games often times tend to reduce character speed if involved in combat. I do actually have something for that.
I call it "battle states" and they describe the relation in which 2 characters stand to each other:

• Peaceful
  No interaction happens
• Attacker
  You attack someone else, but this other player does not fight back
• Defender
  You get attacked by someone else, but you dont fight back.
• War
  You and the other player are at each others throat

Maybe all characters in the defender state should have their bonus speed from gear/buffs nullified and further reduced by 10% as an unremovable mechanic. This would obviously be helpful to melees, but also help ranged chars at the same time. The ranged chars can be dealt with by using smart arena design though.

For knights.. how about a Pullings skill like acrobats have? PC Flyffs hero skill is a pulling if i am not mistaken. Couple that with a double root:
Knight roots itself and target and as long as the knight stays rooted the target remains too (holy/bgvur dont work) but the knights defense is decreased by a %.

Just a few thoughts.

[iron nymph]

The issue with something along that line is if you add more passive stuns/ccs all it would do would be buff the full tank version of the class. As people would just use that to cc more to allow a ranger or psy who has the ability to go more damage. To kill the target. It wouldn't be used to let a dps blade or knight participate.

[maiden reef]

If people use these things to defeat stuff with the help of an ally, I dont see a problem though.
1 vs N should obviously be way in favor of N.

Full tank versions of classes only work because the game throws every mandatory stat at them in such large amounts that stat builds dont matter any more. That's another issue I have identified a long time ago, and I already worked out solutions for these problems (alternate atkspd/hirate/crit formulas for example, different stats, new effects / removed effects, an actual class profile what class X is supposed to do, what it is not supposed to do and how I make sure it stays that way, melee classes being faster than ranged classes by design, etc.)

Every problem, be it pve or pvp can be traced back to flawed class design and mechanics. And I can only repeat myself, but at least 60% of the entire game needs a major rework. And the longer the devs close their eyes before these problems the harder it will become to address future problems and the more complicated their "band-aid-fixes" will get. Even a dead-lock is possible, where nothing goes anymore.

[balmy vapor]

If rangers are strong, how about shortening the cooldown of Holy Guard's skill a bit?

[iron nymph]

Let's keep this pg please. I understand your trying to make a point but no threatening people's lives.
If you could remove that from your comment

[frozen frigate]

if his message isn't getting punished and i guess free to shoot too

edit:
so editing is fine ? okay everyone now knows how to play the game

[iron nymph]

I'm asking nicely before I jump on the punish wagon

So please refrain from doing so

[languid trail]

so we can send death threats to other people once?

[woven notch]

some of the suggestions here deserve it more than once tbh

[young jacinth]

I dont think its good to make balance changes on the opinion of some people here, like 90% of the people probably arent in the discord and do not know that this thread even exist and some opinions here.. would make either a class too overpowered or way too weak 🤔
As some people base it only on siege stats, where ofc the stronger guild that has more whales wins. But they dont take specific classes by logic, like the only class that probably needs a buff would be jester, like 10-20% more range, longer DI (15sec) as its the sin class, and a better AOE, if you change other classes the dps charts will change again, blade for example is the best pve 1on1 dps and not good in pvp, if you give him less 1on1 dps he wont be 1) anymore but for what he will be useful? People will quit him and play something else, if you do PvP changes on ranger, please dont do them on PvE, he is already the lowest 1on1 dps from non-mage classes. In the end you cant make all classes balanced and fair, but a class can be best at X and the other class can be best at Y and another class is good in X and Y but not the best in it etc.

[narrow rain]

How else would you make a suggestion?

[tidal remnant]

nerf ranger auto dmg by 5%, charged auto dmg by 15%, and remove bow range from nature
increase deadly swing dmg, make vital not rely on DI, make counter work against any attacks within jester attack range
decrease holy cooldown to 3 seconds
decrease bp asal by 10% and slightly decrease hp per sta
remove prevention from pvp
decrease sneaker cooldown to 1.5 seconds
increase spirit bomb speed 10%
increase merka dmg

[rose spruce]

Most of the best players are on this Discord and the Mods/Devs know that. And since they dont play the game, they have to get input from the players. We'll see what they make of it in the end...

[long glacier]

probably all siegers watch this thread but simply do not care to give an opinion on this because theres actual siegers giving their opinion aswell as people crying to much.
people have no idea about siege/pvp, yet talk here about balance changes.

thread is just filled with bias people who dont want their class nerfed or being delusional and wanting their class to be buffed even if it makes it worse for everyone.

[crystal kite]

Yea for example me, the best psykeeper in flyff.

[sour wigeon]

No nerf to bp pretty soon asal is gonna be -40% Asal Damage Reduction with all these request. Basically a HOP junior

[autumn oxide]

The Problem is (can only talk for myself ofc), giving suggestions is fine and i like that a thread like this exists. And having suggestions by actually good and active Players added to the list by xyllos was actually a positive surprise for me
But then seeing some of these nonsense, ragebait takes being added aswell, i personally cba anymore
I wanted a separate Channel for active topguilds (pvp and pve) to Filter out all this trolling and nonsense, but thats impossible apparently
So i for myself just wait for Patchnotes and hope it doesnt make 80% of the pvp scene quit

[bold fable]

Being the only PVP Blade to have been to Siege on FWC, and currently still alone as a Blade on Totemia, there is indeed some work to be done on the class in which I have always believed and will keep believing.
From my point of view, there are several elements to implement in order to balance the class and make it more attractive for Siege.
Reducing incantation time of most skills : the Blade is blessed with a large palette of skills that are quite interesting in PVP but are, in practice, hard to setup. Most notably Hawk Attack which allows Blades to reduce the precision of the opponent. Very useful against a Ranger, for instance. The skill Sneaker would also deserve a decrease in incantation time. Indeed, in Siege, by the time I've cast the spell, my opponent is already far across the map. Silent Strike should instantaneously tp towards the opponent. By the time the skill is cast, if the opponent is running he is already at a significant distance, making it impossible to land a single auto-attack without having to use a TP.
Reworking Rending Entry : make the rooting a 100% chance in PVP since it's a high risk skill for a melee class depending on the situation.
Reworking the skill Protection : this is probably one of the most forgotten skills of a Blade or Knight. After the 2nd job change, this skill is no longer used in the Blade. It will be good to make it usable without using a shield.
Increasing movement speed : a small increase would be interesting in order to have a chance to, at least, land a double hit. Indeed, once I'm chasing an opponent, I land a single hit at a time, which means that my attack potential isn't fully exploited. Changing the order of the hits could be interesting, but would make PVE too OP.

Please make this class attractive in PVP and release me from my solitude 🙏🏻

[fossil narwhal]

Faster knockback skill animation will help you a lot

[balmy vapor]

Without the Elementalist's Blizzard stun, there is no way to win 100% against Psy-Keepers and Rangers in a 1v1 battle. If you lower the stun rate, you will have no way to fight Rangers and Psy-Keepers.

[shell kettle]

So maybe give the devs an idea as to how to filter these suggestions -- which person is credible?

Further challenge is the difference between server to server meta.

For example, and I'll use yj as an example coz i play it, alliance sieges would most likely want an increased damage scaling for yj and not have anything to do with high dps classes (psy/rangers).

On the opposite side is the FFA siege, where most of the yjs are not even asking for increased dmg scaling per se but ability to string skills to add to their already decent burst.

Different opinions and different biases on their own and/or other classes make this thread "emotional" because some people just take it without context. "Ohh look at him, wants to hop 80k bla bla" when that's just the suggestion of someone who probably plays in alliance siege.

[long glacier]

its unfortunatly not rage bait i think. people having absolute no clue about siege/pvp post suggestions, cry the most so they get heard the most xd

look at all the yj players talking about buffs when in reality all they need to do is psy and ranger having to go more int/dex and its fine.
theres nothing wrong just doing two balance changes, not going crazy with changes and see how the results of the first balance changes are.
(if gala would make 2 balance changes)

in reality scaling (HP & DMG) should get looked at..
If you nerf psy, ranger DPS, keep YJ same, you probably need to nerf prevention for bps and rms (rm ~80-95k) on 200% and defender will be very hard to kill with nerfed ranged classes.
people just dont seem to understand that and only look at their own respective class on top of being delulu about that

psy should get a dmg loss and probably also remove the combo of satan + rooting in some type of form together. its to powerful together.

[shell kettle]

"All the YJs" 😂

You're just generalising. If you look at the earlier suggestions, some YJs actually suggested exactly what you said

Touche. Good point.

[long glacier]

well iam generalising but i have seen multiple yjs talking about yj buffs.
i rather keep my sanity and not read this entire thread, theres to many people giving pvp suggestions not even playing siege and other people being very delulu about their own class

[fossil narwhal]

https://tenor.com/view/donald-trump-trump-thumbs-up-approved-alright-gif-17778806

[balmy vapor]

It would be better to give Blade a little more magic resistance to balance things out. Knights, who are also close-combat units, have guards, and Blades tend to be more mobile, but their magic resistance is low, so their HP will decrease in an instant.

[languid moon]

#1303489841429872732 message

[iron nymph]

😞

[woven notch]

Please stop commenting. Blades can run the second most Hp in Pvp after Knights on their Hp gear. Blades have the most incoming dmg reduction due to dual wield and they can run double jewels and runes. We still don't have a sample size for Blade performance since there are barely any Blades playing pvp with proper pvp gear. The only thing one could assume is they would struggle with slows, roots etc. and the already multiple times mentioned autoattack mechanic.

[ruby mist]

Rending entry already is 100% rooting in PvP. It was implemented on 1.2.5. You can check the skill description in game. It'll say 100% in PvP. I could've sworn there was an update or maybe it was talked about for blades and AA. Whenever a blade did AA it'd slow the opponent slightly to allow the blade a 2nd hit. Maybe it needs to be revisited since there's much more run speed in game now.

[iron nymph]

Again the main issue for blade isn't it's CC ability. They don't need more CC ability. Arguably they are better then knight at pure CC. However knights survivability is better so people generally go with knight.

The only issue with blade (and a 1v1 knight) is the fact as soon as the person takes 1 step. Blade and knight stop hitting. So their actual dps is really bad because it's "1 hit stop 1 hit stop 1 hit stop".

The only way to make them viable is to make their auto attacks hit within a certain range in pvp. Around the same distance as jester.

I mean look at old flyff blade. It was actually really strong there. Because in that version if blade hit you they where guaranteed 5-6 hits even if you immediately ran away.
Here if you run blade will hit you once and stop.

[sly pollen]

so make holy cd longer and have it grant sury's tenacity for 2 seconds so if you lock someone down while their holy's on cd you can actually stick to them and conversely if they have holy they can actually make a clean getaway

[pine badger]

Try rabbit grace on your siege blade when you have the chance - i wanna see 🙏

[barren dome]

How about reducing the cooldown for Blink Pool in PvP?now15sec.i wanna reduce to 10sec

[supple sparrow]

please no troll posts

[tidal remnant]

Make gravity well pull you to it’s center

[meager sage]

Meanwhile @iron nymph Scores 50points with a 135 set and bloody bow first time in ranger

[barren dome]

Bla's rending entry 5sec in PvP.very very short time.but blink pool is very longer. 3times bla's

[zinc hawk]

2h knight does less dps than SNS?who to your test,i cant believe.

[frozen frigate]

not my test, this is the raw data and in general PvE needs adjustment

[blazing sage]

Isnt that the old dps chart?

[fleet vessel]

I thought he just removed Sword Cross' damage from the 2h test result but that still leaves Knight at 439k. But while SC does make it harder to compare dps numbers you can't just remove it.

[clear lily]

It's a Chart created with irrelevant conditions for regular gameplay, so the results don't reflect actual Ingame scenarios. Especially for 2h Knight the shown Stats are massively inflated

[ocean sparrow]

Bring back wands for blades

[iron nymph]

the infinite knock back range blade ahh good memories

[open peak]

Old Guardian's Wand

[ancient comet]

Just make all the level 11 weps for vagrant as if they were test weps before you decide a class

[limpid juniper]

crucio goes too hard for passive skill

[autumn oxide]

show them the charged shot that deals more than full STR hop aswell while youre at it please

[pine badger]

Thing is thats 26k crit and that 17k reflect is 1/4th of don’s hp 😂 this screenshot sums up perfectly some of the issues in this meta (for both psy and ranger).

[woven notch]

https://imgur.com/J2Jxvd3

half the map is covered with gravity wells and psychic walls and thats only the stuff that is visible due to 140 fov - im sure crowdcontrol will be balanced sometime in the 2030s

[limpid juniper]

Much closer to 1/3, and additionally it had a slight charge just to paint the picture right, but the general statement is true

[maiden reef]

Then again, how the hell does a 26k crit produce 17k reflect in the first place?
26k x 175% x 12,5% ~= 5,69k

Fun fact; PC flyff only reflects 10% of its actual value, flyffU does 12,5%.
PC Flyff crucio is 200% reflect, FU is 175%
200% x 10% = 20% reflected damage
175% x 12,5% = 21,875% reflected damage
👀

[languid trail]

maybe %atk and pvp damage does make it higher like flyff pc

[narrow rain]

% atk scales with reflect damage

[urban hearth]

stop complaining about passive skills as a ranger when you have the most broken one (nature)

[maiden reef]

sounds like something only flyffu does then. And if true, then no wonder people complain. Reflected damage shouldnt scale with any effect of the one reflecting it, as it is not the reflectors damage but the attackers and all of his properties have already been applied.

[limpid juniper]

this guy telling me 15% magicresist and range (for ranger) is the same as taking 50k dmg recoil from 3 autoattacks
psy can just stay in 120k hp gear and watch rangers crumble

[wooden dock]

Magic res is actually starting to be the most broken stat in the game considering it’s addative, for ranger / any 15% mres shield user the 10% rune alone gives 23% dmg reduction (slightly less if ur not on defender set)
Most ppl running block shield ig, and just aswell it scales it really hurts when u don’t have it + the feed that there is, is mainly killed by mages
But no, mages aren’t underperforming atleast most of em

And u also cant take as an example a ranger hitting a full stam tank gear psy who would be bombing for 2k btw I highly doubt any ranger is this ”smart”

And don’t think I don’t agree with that crucio shouldn’t be in the game just as nature shouldn’t or maybe without the range buff and put the magic res buff on a yj

[limpid juniper]

You say that like Mages are underperforming, which is far from the truth - id argue the magic res is actually needed

[urban hearth]

You say that like Rangers are underperforming, which is far from the truth, crucio is only usefull against rangers, range from nature is always broken & magic def is usefull against ele/psy/RM (moreover, it's normal in a video game for one class to counter another (which isn't totally true when you're talking about a ranger vs. psyche battle))

[long glacier]

crucio should get removed but nature is not a good buff either come1

[maiden reef]

25%*

The magic resistance part has its formula defines as follows:

newDmg = oldDmg - oldDmg x defender->MagicResistance

[limpid juniper]

We had the ranger topic on hand here before and I also made sensible suggestions to bring down the consistency of the damage, so dont act like im ignorant on my own class. The point here was that crucio is op, clearly, just look at my screen. Im fine with maybe 1/3 reflection. After this engage on Zeek for example i was left with 20k hp and got picked off immediately.

Now you bring into conversation magic res and range should get nerfed from ranger, knowing full well they will hit the damage most likely already. Too many nerfs to ask for imo. Nature complaints only started coming in more after rangers hit insane dps numbers and i do not think mages need a dmg buff on rangers specifially, do you think you need it?? No id say the opposite, the magic resist was placed there intentionally as ranger is supposed to have an advantage vs mages - same goes for the range.

[wooden dock]

Well we didn’t calc the exact % for it, just knowing that the rune alone, nothing else changed reduced bomb dmg from 13-10k

[pure yarrow]

I'm not sure where this ranger is the mage killer came from. Crucio basically only effects rangers, so the same argument could apply the other way around. AFAIK there have never been X counters Y stated by Gala. It's probably not that deep.

[crystal kite]

https://tenor.com/view/wombat-damn-bro-thats-crazy-sonic7-wombat-thats-crazy-gif-18413706983020911305

[ancient comet]

As a ranger reducing magic resist on nature imo would be fine however nerfing the range is like telling rangers they don’t have anything special about them anymore where as the range is specifically a ranger thing reducing damage and tankyness would be optimal to keep ranger unique as a class

[sharp star]

how is magic defense taken into account?

[maiden reef]

Dmg prior = f ( attack, magic defense ) //standard defense function
Dmg after = dmg prior - dmg prior x magic resist

[eternal sapphire]

finally i read someone arguing about blade in pvp . i wasted a bunch of money in this game and is more then 1 year tryna push my blade with all maxed out gears 130k hp and swapping with 20-30k dmg per hit WITH NO RESULT AND BEHIN REJECT! There was one day i scored 33 points in an alt guild in siege , but that was a wierd siege with some alliances guild and i wasn t attacked from mostly players (could have been much more points tho, but for the reason of that stop attaccking ppls was stealing kills) .
NOW is 2 years i do not see even a single blade sieging or if they do is just as support wich is such a shame.
Honestly if they don t do something imma think to retire from the game or blade class because i m not enjoing the game at 360 since i can't Join on pvp scene. The only fight i can afford is vs YJ wich i can wait them to hop me and then swap to kill them and same for the BP.
So actually i can only play PVE content. Please i would like to enjoy PVP content also as blade class.

[rose spruce]

I can understand that you're not happy with PvP Blade but this text is so pain to read....

[maiden reef]

Dachte ich wäre der Einzige, der davon fast Augenkrebs bekommen hätte

[sly pollen]

please forgive him he has twitch as part of his discord tag

[wispy egret]

You’re complaining that a blade loses in a 1v1 against a ranger. This game doesn’t balance around arena 1v1s

[twilit pine]

I'm here again to ask for a speed buff for RMs. One cast and we're left behind by whoever we're supporting even with speed prems. Either add speed to the set effects of RM sets or just increase the base speed of RMs. It doesn't have to be a lot. Just enough to catch up after casting.

[eternal sapphire]

Excuse me? And you are? 🤣

[woven notch]

As a matter of fact the game doesn't balance at all

[sour wigeon]

Let’s not keep this thread going! They just nerf knights

[void sun]

I don’t see anything breaking with this suggestion and could have a practical improvement in overall RM play style

[rocky fable]

The game engine doesn’t support it that’s all.

[eternal sapphire]

Whatch some video of 2015 , when in top 3 there was only blades. So just change the engine 🤣🤣🤣

[rocky fable]

Again for the love of god. That’s not this engine. It doesn’t work with the 3/4 hits and changes to block etc.

If your going to moan about something then at least understand the issue n

[tranquil laurel]

I suggest to reduce elementor skill's active area for PVP.
I think it is widely over than should be.

😄

[prisma kestrel]

buff mage PVE gianting at later level