City Planning Step by Step?

[waxen pond]

id say if you want to create an acurate but unique to you city in CS

plan poorly

on purpose

then restrict yourself destruction wise

plan it like your 3 different people

CS cities rarely look good starting out, the most difficult thing is the planning part

which the game wants you to do, it wants you to not plan and to destroy whole swatches of built up area later

[copper pike]

This is so hard, I’ve never had to work on a city from scratch IRL. As a city planner, usually there’s always some kind of existing development that drives some sort of influence. Or a neighboring town or city that has some influence on the land you’re looking at.

[waxen pond]

yeah its incredably rare to do a city from scratch

mostly we come in a attempt to fix it up

we inherent the pros and cons that the old planners left

[copper pike]

But I think for me, When I start a city, I think topography, resources, and waterfront.

[waxen pond]

oh and look for how the trees are and restrict yourself from building in those

say like "ay that looks like a clean place for a park"

also one important thing to remember, something I screw up at a lot

don't always think you need a port in every city

this game WANTS you to build massive cities but you dont have to

it also WANTS you to build a single city and fails to differintiate between a city on the map and smaller hamlets

tbh thats something that really should be in CS2

kinda like how industry dlc, vanilla industry and other zonings are all different

this game is also bad at forcing you to build around highways

theres no real way to force a city to be accessable by only rail

or mostly by rail

but its always a good challenege

think, did this city form around river transport or rail transport?

what era

blah blah blah

[waxen pond]

ok heres an example of purposeful poor planning

literally Grand Junction CO right here

yeah i know it may get jammed up but thats part of a real city

traffic flow is never anywhere near 90% much less 70%

We all seem to build ideal cities, not realisitic cities

look at where irl cities have their hubs

and most the time it doesnt look like hubs

it may just be two crossing bus lines

or be centered around event centers

like in San Jose where theres a Caltrain station that has a VTA bus transfer across from the SAP center

id build the roads and city first thing slowly add in transit "hubs"

give it that afterthought vibe

unless its specifically a new modern development

well typically City's airports are on the outskirts

now there are different defintions of "outskirts"

Denver's airport is really far out there

Grand Junctions airport is where you can see most the small town in decent detail on a clear day from it

and San Jose's is just outside of the downtown area and surrounded by sprawl

just keep in mind the glide slopes, flight paths and building heights

avoid putting residential on the approach on either ends of the runway

[strong herald]

I will just drop this here and hope this is enough reason as to why most planners wouldn’t even dare ‘designing’ a completely new city

What’d I’d do is, look at the area i’m working in. If it’s in the netherlands for example, i’d stick with an more historic (road-)layout for the downtown. When expanding outwards from there, i’d look at the typical expansions of dutch cities, look at the problems/bottlenecks they have, and try to fix those. A city doesn’t need to be a prestige project for the person planning it, it needs to be an good area to be for the people living in it

[strong herald]

Which is exactly why Almere failed as a city

I think you still can set goals, but they can/should only be realized when it’s the right time. You might have an 18x18km plot of land, but there’s no one living, or willing to live, there yet. You could plop the highest building of the netherlands there, but without anything around it, that won’t be a succes

[buoyant loom]

What about lelystad?

[tawdry isle]

That's a proto-Almere, or better put: Almere is like Lelystad, but with the lessons learned.

You're referring to terrain height specifically?

[sharp pier]

i think he referring to slope

[strong herald]

I’m feeling this is going to be more fitting for #❓-help-with-my-city

[sharp pier]

realistically approach you will chose a

but you can choose b too there is a lot of planned cities in real life

[tawdry isle]

Also, if you do so more organically (which arguably realistically speaking you should to at least some degree) doesn't rule out keeping future plans in mind, nor does it rule out setting goals, planning forward, etc. Mostly it's about having enough different options

[tawny raven]

I’ll add to this by saying, the closest planner get to this kind of planning is either a developer has a plan for a huge area and they plan it out and get it approved by the jurisdiction. Which is a long planning process. Or, they have these “comprehensive plans” which basically guide the cities direction on many things. It can include zoning, goals for areas/development, parks/recreation, and so much more. I find it helps a lot if you can go in on paint or something and draw out a basic idea to start your city and run with it.

I think this really does depend. I look to real life to see what we really do with terrain and it’s all over the place. Seattle is an example of ignoring the terrain. We built standard blocks and followed them out. Who cares if there are steep slopes roads… the. You have other places that have roads follow the base of steep slopes then build out from there

[strong herald]

Yep. Chances of us planning out entire cities are basically nill. I think that’s why many planners like to play citybuilders, as that gets rid of our limitations.

[tawny raven]

I think it depends on what you’re goal is. A city may want grids and will try to put them everywhere, no matter the cost (Seattle, WA). Maybe you want a central feature in the city so you build out the city from there (Madison,WI). Maybe you go more organically, starting with a few main roads running across the city (old roads that connected important/historical locations, then more of these get build then you get small developments and boom, you have an organic city (New England).

[tawny raven]

Our short lifespan means that there’s always going to be turnover in any given city. It means that many people have their hands in the pot while doing these things. Planners, mayors, city council, state/county, citizens, utilities, developers, so many people get involved at various steps and hold sway of what comes next

One decade may be about building up density, another may be developing out the park network, another the road/transit system. All depending on what issues arise, where priorities fall, whose in charge, and available budget.

[buoyant loom]

New planned cities are rare and usually are built as either new capital of courty/state/county etc. (Chandigarh, canberra,brasilia,nursultan, lelystad) or workers city (borovo naselje, partizanske,...) or areas too move immigrants into (which usually end up into ghettos if isnt worked the right way) like Almere(it was built to move immigrants from amsterdam to new city that is connected to amsterdam as it was overcrowded and then didnt want to built new islands for amsterdam like blijburg island or regions like ksnw or borneosporenburg docks)
Then you have new big areas of cities that are made as new center across the river like Novi Zagreb or Novi Beograd (novi means new) were a lot of new ppl where put in, built on modernism ciam parameters.

[tiny nimbus]

You typically find higher densities in the more desirable places of a city or near major commercial/office centers. Think of the stereotypical city where you have a major downtown with high rises and then the densities decrease as you move away from the center.

You also tend to get higher densities along coastlines, river banks, and parks because they are desirable places to live.

Then you also have districts that could have been specifically designed to for high density commercial and residential that is surrounded by lower density development, think La Défense in Paris or Century City in Los Angeles.

[buoyant loom]

or you have ex iron curtain world which had blocks in suburbs

[graceful delta]

Does Croatia have single family homes

[buoyant loom]

yes

[graceful delta]

Also in some Asian cities, everything is high density, even the burbs and rural areas

[keen wharf]

Singapore. Just going to leave it there

[graceful delta]

Yeah I lived in Taipei before

Everything is high density

It is rare to see buildings less than 3 floors tall

[sharp pier]

for example, you can check jakarta have a lot of single family housing in the middle of the city

[waxen pond]

ok if you wanna get around the fear of terrain

download the map Old Man River

the starting square is very hilly while still being buildable

its a great map to get you out of the flat american style

[sharp pier]

https://youtu.be/gjjvpE5KCKs anyway, cpp made a video about this topic

[mild trail]

for a city inspired by America, what you'll often get is a town commons with a courthouse and church and maybe city hall, and then expand from there, either as rigid a grid (can be a bit same-y, especially in CS) or as a loosely gridded city with a lot of winding streets (look at Boston Mass, or parts of Philly and Lower Manhattan)

but as has been said above, be sure to take into account what the purpose of the city is as you build it, and how that purpose is influenced by its surroundings

[buoyant loom]

for europe mostly you need to have central pedestrian square in front and around cathedral

[graceful delta]

European centers are surprisingly griddy

Though not as organized as North American cities

[buoyant loom]

depends which city

[graceful delta]

Oh I was looking at Polish/Prussian cities

for my own city in-game

And when I look at cities like Poznan or Wroclaw they look a bit griddy

And then there are more modern cities like Lodz and Gdynia

[graceful delta]

Zagreb also has some griddy suburbs but I think those are commie blocks

Like the area just north of the city

Where the National Theater is

And south too

[buoyant loom]

thats lower center

[graceful delta]

Novi Zagreb I think

[buoyant loom]

because it was built in classicism area

novi zagreb is socialist

gornja dubrava is grids

[buoyant loom]

if you look at italian...

southern centers arent grid

[graceful delta]

It is kind of cool since there are different district eras in the same city

[keen wharf]

The Netherlands and Denmark are super griddy

[graceful delta]

Also what does Trg Zrtava Fasizma mean

[keen wharf]

But based on hexagonal or more from the center

[graceful delta]

The area in the north seems to center around that square

[buoyant loom]

square for fallen victims of fascism

[graceful delta]

Oh lol

That area was planned around the 20s apparently

There is a master plan dating back to 1923

[graceful delta]

low quality rip

[buoyant loom]

yes

[graceful delta]

Are you from the Netherlands

[keen wharf]

No

I'm from the U.S., but I did some work for FN

Getting from Belgium to Amsterdam was pretty easy

Can't speak Walloon or Dutch though

Everyone at FN speaks English

[graceful delta]

Yeah it’s because in the Netherlands, English is a mandatory class

And not hard for them to pick up

Dutch is the second closest relative to English

First is Frisian

[keen wharf]

I think it is more because FN is a global company that has the U.S. Military and NATO as their largest clients

[keen wharf]

FN is in Belgium

Different country

[graceful delta]

Oh

Well it’s sort of the same in Belgium

[tawdry isle]

Are we? I feel like some older cities may have some of those aspects (like the centre of Amsterdam), but I wouldn't say generally speaking we're very gridlike

With the exception of polders, but those aren't (historically) meant for housing

[strong herald]

The grid follows the ‘grachten’ though, which were placed in this pattern for defense purposes

But I have to agree with Rico, I don’t think we’re that griddy

[tawdry isle]

I mean, "can look boring from above" isn't that important for the people actually living/shopping/working there

[buoyant loom]

Well, you can make grid with arteries to make big areas, but inside, you can do everything you want.

[graceful delta]

grids aren't usually the problem, but on the human scale you need a sense of space

[buoyant loom]

Like if you see Novi Zagreb (which is planned) you can see that each of 8 hoods is different, but arteries are placed that make rectangulars.

[graceful delta]

if there is good street frontage and greenery, then people won't feel out of place

they will if it's a bunch of detached buildings and parking lots

that's why people like NYC but not so much Houston in the 80s

[graceful delta]

( I like how one of the districts is named after a Polish resort town )

I won't be surprised if it actually was

also how do people cross the 8-lane avenue

[buoyant loom]

8lane avenue with tram line in between?

[graceful delta]

yeah, Dubrovnik Avenue

[buoyant loom]

Depends on crossing, its either below the crossing or its zebra.

Below is velesajam, 🇩🇪 , sopot, trnsko, savski most.
On the ground is avenue mall and zapruđe.

[graceful delta]

yeah it's really wide in some parts so a pedestrian tunnel is needed

[buoyant loom]

Still on most famous crossing its normal one

[graceful delta]

also the Polish resort town is Sopot lol

there is also a similar Serbian resort district, also named Sopot, in Belgrade

[buoyant loom]

In the future there should be another line north south (or on pic left right).

[graceful delta]

Sopot in Poland doesn't have any socialist stuff but it has some super expensive mansions

[buoyant loom]

Except ocd, I think this is one of best crossings in exyugo and really you never have problem here... @graceful delta

[graceful delta]

it looks like someone went crazy with the Intersection Marking Tool lmao

speaking of intersections I kind of remember this one

Roman Dmowski Roundabout in Warsaw, though I believe it is getting renamed

[buoyant loom]

Nice color of trams

[graceful delta]

it's Women's Rights Roundabout (though I don't think it's finalized)

to commemorate the All-Poland Women's Strike

[buoyant loom]

Nice name

[graceful delta]

same roundabout 35 years ago

[buoyant loom]

That famous varšava building

[graceful delta]

same angle for comparison

[graceful delta]

what do you think's the most famous building in Zagreb

Cibona Tower, or the Zagreb Cathedral or something else

St. Mark's Church is also well known and it's a Cities: Skylines asset