The 4th host theory

[tired rock]

Also wasn't there that thing @ivory needle mentioned with MCE possibly being a more detailed look at said vanilla lands TM

Smh

[heady horizon]

Yeah

[tired rock]

What 😭

[heady horizon]

I am trolling to make a point

[tired rock]

Fair

[white vortex]

what on earth are you talking about

[white vortex]

what does agree to disagree mean to you

[heady horizon]

It means to me:

"I no longer want to be part of thiss discussion and/or try to change your mind or get mine changed. So I write/say some, to the discussion, unproductive sentence to try to get out of the discussion"

[tired rock]

He's saying if vanilla generation isn't canon then stuff like that could be true

[heady horizon]

Yeah, basicaly

[tired rock]

Only really applies to the savannah village one tho since we see jungle temples in dungeons

[white vortex]

then we understand each other

[tired rock]

🍿

[white vortex]

👍

[heady horizon]

On a jungle island

[white vortex]

minecraft structures tend to follow their environment

they also always try to have a unique palette

so that makes finding architectural similarity a little harder

[heady horizon]

Yes and so do they in vanilia MC. If you accept that part of world generation, then why not more ? Why stop there ?

[white vortex]

im not arguing

im making a comment

but to answer your question

[tired rock]

Also the whole 'every civilization spans the entire world' thing can prob just be handwaved imo

[white vortex]

vanilla mc is tethered by gameplay

[tired rock]

MC isn't the only game to do that

[white vortex]

it includes infinite structures, infinite biomes

im not gonna accept that illagers are across the entire world, and so are strongholds, and so is the nameless kingdom, and so are the monumentals, and so are the galeans

[heady horizon]

But always the same ones

[white vortex]

not until its shown by a game with a non randomized world

that is my stance

[tired rock]

Main example I think of is no man's sky but I'm sure that's not the only one 💀

[heady horizon]

Its generation creates new things out of pre-existing generation rules and structures/biomes. Yes, those new creations are probaly not canon. But what about the structures, biomes and the generation rules ?

[tired rock]

Granted in that game the whole universe is a simulation but still

[heady horizon]

But all MC games have one....

MCD has random level generation to an extend

[white vortex]

?

i mean the world map

[heady horizon]

MCL has random terrain generation

[tired rock]

There's like 3 factions that control 255 galaxies just because 💀

[white vortex]

yeah thats why i only trust how dungeons represents the world

[tired rock]

MC is similar

[heady horizon]

But MCD and vanilia MC have been stated to be basicaly equal in the lore

[white vortex]

ok

that doesn’t mean vanilla’s representation of the world is equal

[heady horizon]

Why spit on vanilia MCs uniqueness and fully embrace MCDs ?

[white vortex]

because i want to

[tired rock]

💀

[white vortex]

i no longer feel like answering questions

[tired rock]

Tbf tho Minecraft is like the game that started all this 💀

No way they'd sideline it like that in the lore

[brittle lance]

but like, MCD was basically the game from which the modern lore came to be

[heady horizon]

When it comes to illagers

[tired rock]

That would be like if Mario RPG or smth was more canon than actual mainline Mario games

Smth like that

[heady horizon]

And the thing is, vanilia MC is being updated. Its not an oudated source

[brittle lance]

i mean, there was no canon or lore until MCD started development, so not only would they have to develop illagers but also construct a canon and lore to the many things from the minecraft setting

so they can fit all in

[heady horizon]

While taking into consideration the established features of vanilia MC

The MCD desert temple, ocean monument, ocean ruins and mansion are straight out of vanilia MC

[tired rock]

True

[heady horizon]

Because there is no starting line for the lore

[tired rock]

Also even if they did, after some point it's literally not even MC lore anymore 💀

[heady horizon]

Which are already knew for years thanks to that one dev quote

[tired rock]

It just becomes mc spinoff lore instead

[heady horizon]

Yeah

[ivory needle]

Sup

[heady horizon]

The lore is not the lore of a specific game but of an entire franchise

[tired rock]

Oh yeah also that

[heady horizon]

Wich was confirmed to have no starting line, that things can come from everywhere

[brittle lance]

vanilla its meant to be a nexus point
nothing there will contradict the lore of spinoff games, but it will be generic enough that nothing will be truly unique

[heady horizon]

Ancient cities

[brittle lance]

ancient cities are still generic

they dont have specific charcater

and we dont see a very specific ancient city place

[heady horizon]

They are simplified

[ivory needle]

Mc Earth hehe

[heady horizon]

But not generic

Ancient cities are extremly unique, with never before seen structures, materials and organisms

[tired rock]

Hello 😁

[heady horizon]

We even get a little bit of imformation about their possible events and society from the music disc

And thats not it

Trail ruins

We know that the devs developed a complete lore on how their society was

[brittle lance]

but there isnt like one ancient city that will be unique compared to others
not intentionally
all ancient cities are simplified and basic follow the same lore
compared to like, the MCD stronghold with the vanilla strongholds
its all still strongholds and have similar themes, but you clearly see the MCD one its meant to be more unique for the storied setting

[ivory needle]

aloha

[heady horizon]

Yes, thats why they are simplified. But you cant say that they are a unique kind of structure

[tired rock]

Wait I forgot this was a thread and not just #minecraft-theories-discussion 💀

[heady horizon]

Lmao

[tired rock]

Crazy

[ivory needle]

why is this discussion on fourth host theory

[tired rock]

That's what I'm wondering now 💀

How did we get here

[ivory needle]

Lol

same braincell

[heady horizon]

Something about archies destiny, me disagreeing with BD if there is a land of vanilia MC and then brrrrrrrr

[white vortex]

me and seal were talking about archie unifying all illagers

[brittle lance]

im not saying the vanilla lands dont exists, but i honestly think there isnt A specific land in mind for vanilla

[tired rock]

Galeans:

[heady horizon]

Yeah I agree, thats why I always say "landS"

[white vortex]

Ancient City Island

[ivory needle]

Mc Earth continent

[brittle lance]

actually, even plural
there is other lands beyond the MCD continent, thats all we know

[heady horizon]

Like we dont even know if they are continents, one continent, an island archepelago or etc

[brittle lance]

what determs vanilla its very random to have one concrete way

like, what vanilla has its simplified stuff that spinoffs can give more uniqueness and specific settings, i guess like what MCE does

it gives more personallity to what appears to be a setting closer to vanilla's

[ivory needle]

the earth dev diary said MCE happened at the time and space of Vanilla

[heady horizon]

There are still factors that determine it in its unique geography and cultures, which are a product of rules and features added by the devs and not a product of its rule and input based random world generation

Like unique structures, the location of ores, the biomes and etc

[brittle lance]

sure, like biomes in vanilla all exists in canon, but there isnt a defined way of where they are and how exactly they will be presented

like MCD that adds a mountain full of redstone, at first it seems to contradict it, but it doesnt

MCD can allow to have unique places and thus unique ore conditions

vanilla presents a very broad way redstone generates

but unique stuff can happen

just wont be something vanilla will concern with, because it often relates to the necessities of a storied setting

[tired rock]

oh wait that's pretty much direct confirmation that the vanilla lands are real 💀

crazy

[ivory needle]

crazy

[loud rain]

with a z

[ivory needle]

crazzzy

[heady horizon]

Yes, and I argue that its because they are 2 diffrent places

In thiss case, probaly some plate tectonics sheet brough the redstone from the lower layers up, when the mountain formed

Creating a unqiue aspect of the MCD continent

[ivory needle]

https://discord.com/channels/773771861812183080/1208216711996772403 being the thread for everything except its original purpose

[heady horizon]

Also the locations of ores irl can be diffrent

Like you can find diamonds irl in africa close to the surface

[tired rock]

fr 😭

[ivory needle]

Earth lore >>>>> vanilla

[late estuary]

bc you said it had foresight

[raw mountain]

No. It is for its original purpose.

[ivory needle]

It isnt related to the fourth host

It's a discussion of Archie

[eager forge]

Yeah I get that
Probably just a way of the orb making sure it's very immersive for him
Of course that guy planned everything out, if it's true that the orb is immortal, as in, not able to die from old age.

[brittle lance]

What had foresight?

[late estuary]

orb

[late estuary]

how

[tired rock]

The fact they had to specify that it takes place in the same space as vanilla implies that vanilla has it's own space in the first place

[late estuary]

whats the difference between that and Mark saying that vanilla and dungeons are in the same "canon setting"?

[brittle lance]

Forsight had orb???

Wtfdym?

[brittle lance]

Impossible

[ivory needle]

Elaborate

[late estuary]

no not like foresight the character

[tired rock]

You could argue that the setting is just the general world, though as I was typing that I realized it wasn't quite a smoking gun anyway

In order to be sure we'd have to to have something saying that MCD doesn't take place in the same exact space as vanilla as well

But also imo saying that all of vanilla takes place on one tiny continent is kinda goofy anyway

[tired rock]

Forgot to elaborate, but it's just cause the vanilla world is still like way larger than however big the MCD continent is

Like 5x the size of earth or smth

Not saying it's necessarily 1 to 1, but it seems like at least a bit of a stretch to shrink all of that down to one small continent

Plus there's some biomes that don't even show up there

[ivory needle]

Idk

we have the globe pattern thing

conclude something with that

i personally think vanilla are a some big islands prob next to Island Realms

oh and why are we talking about this in the 4th host theory lmfao

[tired rock]

This thread has never been about the 4th host 😭

It's everything else lmao

[ivory needle]

you are the fourth host

[tired rock]

No way

The true fourth host was the friends we made along the way

[tired rock]

Also maybe but the globe also does look fairly generic smh

But idk for sure

Would hold more weight if it matches the cartography table one

[ivory needle]

well its the closer thing we got to vanillalands

and also earth

[tired rock]

Fair, also here's the comparison smh

[ivory needle]

but theres also my cluckshroom hypothesis so idk

[tired rock]

?

[ivory needle]

so i speculate that earth had a recent arrival of humans so maybe MCE has its own continent separated of vanilla

[tired rock]

Huh

[ivory needle]

or maybe vanillalands just dont exist 👽

[tired rock]

Also now that I'm looking at it, this could work if the top continent of the cartography table was the same as the rightmost continent of the globe pattern, but idk

[ivory needle]

fair

[tired rock]

😱

Honestly I hope/think they'll keep the shape ambiguous tho smh

Just cause it's supposed to be the world you play on in vanilla and allat

Which isn't really a constant either

[ivory needle]

Yeah i get thats supposed to be like create your own storyline (and kill the ender dragon)

[tired rock]

Yeah pretty much

Also you're not convincing me that every bit of terrain you see in vanilla is a lie and it's all just completely different stuff in lore 😭

[ivory needle]

what

[tired rock]

Might as well make it non canon or smth

[ivory needle]

do you mean @ theory?

[tired rock]

Idk I forgor what he said

[ivory needle]

that vanilla landscape wasnt canon

or quasi

[tired rock]

Kinda remember that

It being a simplification makes sense tho

[ivory needle]

im gonna say i like Earth approach

like revealing stuff about the potential vanilla landscape but still being very vague and undefined

[tired rock]

Oh yeah def

[tired rock]

Was gonna say tho I was just talking in this about the idea that it has a definite shape like you suggested earlier or just not existing at all like what BD says

Both sorta boil down to that either way

[brittle lance]

Vanilla lacks features and the dev said that they could add whatever they want to to the franchise which would make it canon
That also means that they still consider vanilla canon, even tho the landscape can't be, bc it lacks stuff and again, we can access the entire universe in vanilla, so that means despite the landscape not being like the dungeons one they still consider both canon at the same time, which is impossible and the devs themselves confirmed it (being impossible)
So either they introduced scp to the lore, or they don't care about their own lore bc they either don't know themselves or bc they rlly give a f### about the minecraft community

I interpret it the following way: They consider the whole games canon even tho per defintion they are semi-canon, bc it doesn't make sense to have two different things coexisting at the same time at the same place
So if we are to consider their words literally true then how do we solve this impossible riddle?

[ivory needle]

Vanilla landscape lacking stuff doesnt make it less canon. The rest i already give up discussing with you. But the dev said Earth takes at a the space and time of Minecraft which... confirms the vanilla landscape exists

[brittle lance]

Yes it does per defintion
Agreed
That just means they happen at the same time and at the same place, nothing does that say about the way the landscape actually is

[ivory needle]

Vanilla is meant to be "blurry" and a generalization. Vanilla not having Dungeons stone bricks doesnt make it less canon.
If it takes at a place, it means Vanilla takes at a place, even with specific locations such as the Earth structures or Grassy Plains

[brittle lance]

Ik that fully aware, but definition is definition, simple as that.
Wtf? I never said vanilla doesn't take place lol. I just said it's terrain is lore-inaccurate per defintion and the devs fully agree with me.

[tired rock]

That's what I was saying lmao

[ivory needle]

Saying 'definition' without elaboration doesnt take us anywhere.
You just said 'impossible' to meso saying vanillalands existed. The devs just said dungeons tied into vanilla, dont try to say that as a fact

[tired rock]

wait when did they say that 😭

all they've said is that they're in the same universe

[tired rock]

also tbf while you def can explore a full mc world, actually doing that is stupidly hard

[brittle lance]

But we all know the defintion of canon, don't we?
I said impossible that they look like in vanilla, not that they aren't real
It tying into vanilla + the fact that it is canon confirms that vanilla is canon as well

[brittle lance]

The moment they said ich they're both in the same universe and when they said they could add anything and it would become canon even if missing in a game, so they are fully aware that the vanilla universe in lore doesn't look like it does in gameplay for us, and yet they call it canon anyways
Zol claimed just bc smth lacks features doesn't make it non-canon, but I disagree in the case of vanilla
Yes just because we don't see insects like flies in vanilla just bc they're too small ofc doesn't necessarily mean that they don't exist in lore, but in that case it's smth different than the landscape, bc the landscape could be easily fixed but they decided against it
They didn't even change the end gateway structure from vanilla into the one from dungeons or the other way around
What I say is; they don't even try to make the landscape identical or atleast as identical as possible so that you could see the intend

[brittle lance]

Which is already enough
If you don't believe me then I have an idea:

Go find me the desert temple from dungeons in vanilla and take one of the plants which are said to be corrupted and/or undead and bring it to me then
You can look trough every seed

[tired rock]

Nah I'm not saying vanilla isn't a generalization of it

[brittle lance]

But when looking at the game files of vanilla you immediatelly realize you won't find what you're searching bc it doesn't exist in vanilla

[tired rock]

Obv

[brittle lance]

But you say vanilla is canon even tho the vanilla landscape and the dungeons landscape contradict each other

[tired rock]

But I don't think it's much suspension of belief that it's still canonically out there somewhere

But idk

[tired rock]

Dungeons is just more detailed smh

Just cause of how the game works comparatively

[brittle lance]

Okay please search the dungeons end gateway in the end for me please
It's pretty simple
Kill the dragon 20 times via commands and then every possible end gateway spawned
So please go ahead, it's quiet simple

[brittle lance]

It's more than just more detailed lol

[brittle lance]

I fully know that and ain't denying that tho and you 🫵 know that.

[tired rock]

Eh that you could also chalk up to dungeons being more detailed but idk

Tho that doesn't really prove anything about the actual terrain thing

[brittle lance]

Only 1 of the two can be canon and that's smth you can immediately find out, this isn't a theory

[ivory needle]

you are still not elaborating.
Nobody has ever argued that they do look like they do in vanilla, that's why we said it's blurry and why it misses stuff from other games

[ivory needle]

It doesn't. Laura said that Pumpkin Pastures could absolutely exist in vanilla, it's up to the vanilla team if they think it's a good fit or not, and ultimately they do exist in lore in the vanilla world(s).
I still dont see your contradiction, like yes a game is missing some stuff from the other game, but it still exits in lore so it wouldn't be of concern that they call it canon. They don't have to make the landscape near identical to prove our point

[ivory needle]

The vanilla iteration of end gateaway are a legacy thing, its not crazy to think they had gotten retconned in Dungeons

[ivory needle]

Why did dyno marked this with a star lol

I think im disengaging from this vanilla landscape discussion

[brittle lance]

Okay
The word canon is used to describe a weapon that shoots or what story/reality truly happened within 1 universe
But you claimed it being blurry/inaccurate wouldn't make it less canon

[brittle lance]

I never said they couldn't exist in vanilla but currently they only exist in vanilla in-lore, not in gameplay so the landscape we see and play on is not canon!
Well the thing is just in this case that vanilla isn't just lacking some stuff but a lot of stuff so the entire experience is completely different and the landscape also is completely different so calling vanilla canon is okay but I never said that vanilla as a whole itself isn't canon. I said that it's landscape isn't canon and much more, making the only canon things actually quiet few

[brittle lance]

Ik but them being different forces the lore to decide between 1 of the 2 bc they can't both exist at the same place at the same time, that's impossible.

[brittle lance]

Legit no clue

[brittle lance]

okay, np
just keep in mind that you can't use vanilla's landscape for theory crafting (except for saying that stuff like the ancient city and biomes etc. exist, but that's already all.

[ivory needle]

I disagree with your concept, so i wont use it.

[tired rock]

Nuh uh

[brittle lance]

Okay. I see you don't understand it, but it's okay.

[brittle lance]

😂

[tired rock]

It's just agreeing to disagree smh

[brittle lance]

Okay, look. Let me summarize the discussion, okay?
There are two options now:

1. Either you think that two landscapes can co-exist at the same time at the same place without even providing an explanation for your claim
2. Or you are thinking that despite the landscapes not being identical, you still ignore that fact and call it canon anyways, even tho you know the defintion of canon being what's real and this landscape isn't real.
   I am an understanding person with understanding for others, but this right here is the first time that I'm actually legitamately annoyed from a minecraft discussion bc it feels like a waste of time. I have explained everything and with proper reasoning and yet you disagree with it while agreeing with smth that you didn't provide anything for
   I just don't understand; Why are you so stubborn without anything to base your claim off of???

[tired rock]

Honestly I'm tired of this too ngl 😭

[brittle lance]

Okay.
But please have understanding for me as well.
I put in the effort into the discussion to explain it and then you just claim that I didn't explain it so you disagree with it
That's not okay for me.

[tired rock]

Meh that was zol 🤷

Not me

[brittle lance]

But didn't you claim that you agree with zol? 🤨🤔❓

[tired rock]

Yeah I do, but that doesn't mean we're a hivemind lmao

Also do agree that what we see in vanilla is a simplification of how it probably looks in lore (so not quite identical anyway), but there's no reason the stuff you see in vanilla can't just be representative at least of smth more specific (like what we see in dungeons)

Otherwise vanilla might as well not be canon, which isn't something they're probably going for

And as for dungeons and vanilla 'overlapping', while you could fully explore a mc world I don't think a single person actually has or will, so it's not much of a stretch to say the MCD continent and everything like that just exists in some unexplored region in your world

And even if you don't believe that, it could still be beyond the world border since we still see terrain there

[tired rock]

Main reason I disagree tho smh ^

[brittle lance]

Yes we are. We voidlings are a hivemind and we shall dominate and annihilate the entire world 😈

[tired rock]

Vanilla while they said isn't "the mainline", it's still the center for the franchise so I doubt they would just toss it away lore wise like that

Would be silly

[brittle lance]

I fully agree with that!
But I also think that this simplification makes it no longer lore accurate
I mean what part of the vanilla landscape does legit provide smth useful to the lore that wasn't overshadowed by dungeons? Like could you please give an example?

[tired rock]

Oh lmfao so this whole thing might've just been a misunderstanding

Crazy

[brittle lance]

Nono, it is canon dw
I just think that despite specific parts of it not being canon, it still can be called canon, bc the features and story and texts etc. are all still real ofc

[tired rock]

🤷

Also Ancient Cities are def the biggest example of lore like that

So are most villages since they don't have an equivalent either

Also the fact that vanilla has a huge amount of terrain variation we just don't see in dungeons

[brittle lance]

You don't have to explore the whole world to know that you won't find what you're looking for. The simple fact that the two end gateways are different immediately confirms it that at minimum one of the two is unreliable
And in this case I think vanilla has the lore inaccurate landscape, so bc of this I deem vanilla's landscape as not canon, but vanilla as a whole still canon

[brittle lance]

You could explore that part too with /worldborder, but again; a look at the game files is already enough

[brittle lance]

I disagree with that as well lol xD

[tired rock]

💀

[tired rock]

Think the real thing maybe is just what we define as 'non-canon'

I'd personally treat it as more of a gray zone than just dismissing it entirely

[brittle lance]

That's what I thought too, which is why I was so surprised to find out that a spin-off is more lore accurate than the main game
That's smth I've never seen anywhere else but in minecraft

[brittle lance]

Mojang: hold my 🍺

[brittle lance]

Bruh

[brittle lance]

Kinda (not)

[tired rock]

At a certain point tho it would just be "MCD lore" rather than "Minecraft Lore"

[brittle lance]

Yes but in vanilla it's nowhere near as big enough to be considered a city so it would look different in dungeons ofc
What we can conclude from it tho is that it exists in lore

[tired rock]

Which like is cool ig but there wouldn't be as much of a point since it wouldn't be relevant to actual Minecraft anymore

[tired rock]

🤷

The fact it doesn't exist in dungeons tho still means the vanilla one is better

And there's still stuff we can gleam from it anyway

[brittle lance]

Way too small 😐

[tired rock]

Still stuff you can get from it too tho

[brittle lance]

Yes, so we know that different biomes exist, but not so much how they exist, like how they are in-lore

[brittle lance]

☠️

[tired rock]

Like I remember there was even a section on some big old villager theory entirely dedicated to them

ong

Also pottery shards are another thing

[brittle lance]

What is the real thing, wdym?

[tired rock]

Just thought of that

[tired rock]

^

[brittle lance]

We know from vanilla's landscape that it's content exists, but that's all unfortunately

[brittle lance]

Yep. That's why you have to be very careful with your vanilla usage for theory crafting

[brittle lance]

I would agree if it wasn't for the fact that the devs claimed vanilla, dungeons, earth and legends are one giant universe

[brittle lance]

Yes ofc

[brittle lance]

Tbf, did I ever claim otherwise?

[brittle lance]

Yes

[brittle lance]

Can you find it maybe?

[tired rock]

Eh you said it was just non-canon

[brittle lance]

True!

[tired rock]

That's what I got from that

[brittle lance]

👍
But a very dark gray xD

[brittle lance]

I said the landscape of vanilla and the level landscapes of dungeons are yes and I stand to that
But I didn't say the content is non canon as well

[brittle lance]

What did you get from what?

[tired rock]

You saying that stuff isn't canon compared to dungeons

[brittle lance]

kinda (not)

[late estuary]

since the way we see the mc universe in-game is probably not how it looks in-universe (Karl was said to have fingers), things can be represented in different ways depending on the art style

[brittle lance]

That's literally exactly what I've been saying this whole entire time!
So the landscapes obv aren't canon. Period (lol).

[late estuary]

but the vauge shape of it is canon

[brittle lance]

The only canon thing about it that is canon is it's existence