Trail ruins were built by villagers (+ analysis of the Fox Armour)

[fiery canyon]

please first read Analysis of the Maulers by seal (dyno wouldn't let me link the thread)
My interpretation on this lore piece on the ancient villagers is how ancient villagers used fox fur specifically for armour, not like clothes to combat cold temperatures but instead for defence, impliying this is the better they could do with the resources at their disposal. If we consider the fox armour as villager made we could also consider the rest of canine armour to be also made by the ancient villagers since they are sew almost identically and the mobs from they are made are in the same habitat as foxes.

Fox and arctic foxes only spawn in taigas and snowy taigas respectively, and wolves are also very common there. The description of the fox armour tells us - with the resources they had at their disposal, the best they could come up with was to hunt foxes for their fur as armour to be used in battle - which was used by ancient tribal warriors to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies - is quite useful in arguing my theory. I interpret this as that the ancient villagers were hunter-gatherers before the neolithic.

What has fox armour got to do with the trail ruins? In the trail ruins we have 3 important pottery sherds I'll try to explain

The burn pottery sherd depicts fire. The theme of the update was history telling and archeology, n i think the discovery of fire it was a remarkable point in minecraft history that will be depicted in a history telling gimmick. (It could also just simply depict the fireplaces found in the trail ruins but it wouldn't affect my main theory). Maybe wheels would be added as pottery sherds if minecraft wasn't a blocky game (I know minecraft inside the lore is not blocky and that there are wheels in MCD but its not factible to show that in a pottery sherd). By the same logic, sheaf is showing the discovery/development of agriculture, and this forced ancient villagers to care of their crops and thus to settle permanentally on the place they were farming. I believe this is the origin of the trail ruins, as any other settlement in prehistory, it was driven around agriculture, caring the crops and cattle, and i believe the howl sherd might be depicting the husbandry of canines 2. We already know that ancient villagers appreciated and honored canines, but they also hunted them. After they set their settlements on ground, they might have stables with canines to get fur without travelling long distances. Even if they not farmed canines it makes sense that they depict the only animal pottery sherd with a canine since, its almost the only animal they depict, and the only depiction of ancient hunter-gatherers villagers its with animals too.

If this were my only arguments, i would call this thread more of a speculation more than an analysis, but i have a couple of observations more.

From the 6 biomes trail ruins can naturally generate, 4 are taigas and one of them is the snowy taiga from where they would get the arctic fox armour from.
Spruce wood sign can be found in the loot table of suspicious sand/gravel, further confirming their presence on the taigas. That the story telling aspect was in mind while the devs were making this old structure i dont think its a coincidence, i consider the presence of signs as the development of a writing system. The first writing systems were devoloped in the bronze age, like its showing the progression from the neolithic to the bronze age and finally to the iron age.
Friend sherd might actually be an iron golem. In the trail ruins we can find an anvil, its literally missing only 5 ingots to make an iron golem. Although the sherd might just represent a friend of the drawer to show a sign of appreciation, and it wouldn't be weird since we have the heart and heartbroken pottery sherds too.

Relic disc has the leitmotif of one of the songs of the OST of MCL, this stablishes some sort of connection between the trail ruins and the Legend. There's also the host armour trim. The villages from the Legend have colourful decorations blocks, very similar to terracotta. This building looks similar to the high central tower of the TRs 2.

In this cinematic we can see the piglins chasing a fox for absolutely no reason at all, only to kill it. I believe this is part of a propaganda. "Oh no the bad pigs are killing the animal that we honour too much! How horrible these piglins are!". At the end of the cinematic the piglins meanwhile chasing the fox they bump their heads. I interpret this like "not only they are ugly but also dumb and brute!" All this makes sense when you consider that the legend was also written by the villagers.

[fiery canyon]

Another cinematic I interpret to be related to the Trail ruins and the ancient villagers is this one where a big piglin catches a creeper with his hands and it terrorises the creeper. This is more speculative, but I think it could also be propaganda. There are many faces of creepers in Lagers structures, and the Trail ruins are no exception. I think the villagers worship creepers (in fact Blockopedia says the chiseled sandstone worships creepers, but thats for the NK) and since most concrete religious beliefs are formed around the Iron Age, and the TRs clearly have lots of iron. Therefore, in the cinematic, they portray "oh no, the poor creeper is being terrorised by the evil piggo!", just like in the case of the fox.

Anyways thanks for reading my thread yapping bout foxes

and thanx to deepl write for writing half of it

[solid saffron]

amongus

[fiery canyon]

disturbing

i cannot unsee it

[fiery canyon]

tl;dr of my theory: ancient villagers were hunter-gatherers that once developed agriculture made settlements, those settlements are the trail ruins and the trial ruins are the ancient villages in the Legend

[fading siren]

Thiss is a intresting thread

I may make a full scale critique on it based on my knowledge of real life history

[fading siren]

Here is the link:
#1162513793427963954

[fiery canyon]

Thxu

hm

broken link

i suppose its discord malfunctioning and not dyno

just noticed i mispelled wolves as wolfs

[fading siren]

Works for me

[fading siren]

I agree with your claim that thiss shows their warrior past, since its literally armor like you said

But I have to disagree with the claim that all pelt armor was made by the ancient villagers. Pelt armor is a very basic armor and not something complex like for example the armor of the royal guard from johans and archies empire. So everybody could have made them. Ancient villagers, ancient illagers, ancient witches ? (If they existed) and ancient humans

Tho the ancient villagers of the MCD continent definetly had wolf armor too. As you said, both foxes and wolves inhabit the taiga

[fiery canyon]

My arguments are that they're literally sew identically as the fox armour, and that if the AVs sewed foxes, the rest of canines are a possibility since they inhabit the same habitat

[fiery canyon]

oki

[fading siren]

I fully agree with you

Neolithic setteled villagers would have had clothing made of the ressources got from domesticated animalss such as leather and wool. Still nomadic villagers would obviously still use pelt armors tho

[fading siren]

Yes, but that is probaly for gameplay reasons. Afteral, why make a new model if you can just reuse an old good model ? That is done in the gaming industry for ALOT of things. Also there is MCs representative nature in-game

[fiery canyon]

I believe ancient villagers used wool clothes since we can find lots of looms in the TRs, but canine armour would be the used for battles like the handbook for heroes say, fox armour is hard to pierce through

and that sheeps are the most common animal in the taigas by far

[fiery canyon]

u have a point

[fading siren]

While you make a good analysis of these potery sherds, you fail to realise a crucial fact. The trail ruins have iron bars, which means they existed already in the iron age. Thiss also means that the trail ruins existed long before neolithic (irl the iron age happend around 1000 years after the end of the neolithic).

So farming, the fire and the domestication of wolves already happend long before the trail ruins emerged. It also means that we are in a time when the modern villagers already existed since a long time and the ancient illagers of the stone age are gone since a long time

[fiery canyon]

I dont get it. What does iron bars have to do with that?

withthe pottery

mate is cooking

[fading siren]

It means, in the context of the trail ruins being from the iron age atleast, that your intepretation of the potery sherds can not be true. Because the invention of agriculture, domestication of wolves and discovery of fire happend long before the iron age. (Irl they also happend at diffrent times. Fire was discovered by homo erectus, wolves were domesticated in the stone age by homo sapienes and farming was invented at the start of the neolithic)

[fiery canyon]

so, ancient villagers cant invent iron bars?

[fading siren]

So imo the sherds do not show that those things were created/discovered, but instead had a high importance in trail ruin societies

[fading siren]

Yes, because that would have happend during the time of the modern illagers

[fiery canyon]

I cant see why avs could not have gotten iron. Theres is literally 3 blocks of iron in the Trails ruins

[fading siren]

An historical rxample to allow you to better realise how advanced humanity irl was during the iron age:
The first empire, the Assyrian empire by Cyrus the great, the "King of Kings" existed during the iron age (and I think it even was around the begining of the iron age)

[fiery canyon]

and probably iron pickaxes too, since they need to get emeralds somehow

[fading siren]

Do you know why, for example, neolithic people did not use iron ?

[fiery canyon]

Im not saying ancient villagers were from the neolithic, i said the origin of the trail ruins are

[fading siren]

I tell you why. Because they either didnt knew that it existed or because they didnt knew that you can smelt it, form it in diffrent shapes and make better tools from it

[fading siren]

And I am saying that thiss cant be the case. That the trail ruins cant be from the neolithic

Because iron ore and how to smelt it was discovered (atlest irl) around 1000 years after the neolithic ended

And farming for example was invented at the start of the neolithic, which was 8.800 years before the discovery of iron

[fading siren]

I repeat, the fact that the trail ruins have smelted iron and not just iron ore autmoaticaly means that the trail ruins existed atleast during the start of the iron age

Yes, they coule have already existed before the discovery of iron, like for example ancient egypt. But even ancient egypt wasnt around during the invention of agriculture

@fiery canyon

[fiery canyon]

My google says farming was imvented in 9000 BC

[fading siren]

Yeah, the exact date is debatable, because of a lack of knowledge of what happen far far far in the past

But we still know it happend years before the discovery and then later the usage of (smelted) iron

[fiery canyon]

wait some mins i have to grasp some stuff

[fading siren]

Everything that I said in a shorter text:

The discovery of fire, domestication of wolves and invention of agriculture that you claim the trail ruins did happend (irl atleast) thousands of years apart. The fact they use iron means that the trail ruins were civilisations from the iron age and not the neolithic. So they could not have discovered fire, domesticated or invented agriculture. Because those things already happend thousand of years in the past

[fading siren]

@fiery canyon

[fading siren]

Also the ancient villagers are definetly from the stone age. So the people that made the trail ruins could not have been ancient villagers. They would have been already modern illagers, if they were villagers at all

[fiery canyon]

and couldnt after technology progression a settlement from the neolithic progress to the iron age? Like the peoples from Iraq did?

You also have to count on gold since its also found in the TRs, which the smelting of was developed in the bronze age

[fiery canyon]

From iraq i mean the mesopotamia region

[fading siren]

So in the context of the trail ruins being from the iron age the 3 sherds need to have diffrent meanings

I argue that the sherds show that:

• fire had a significant role in their societies, for economic or religious reasons
• wolves had a significant role in their societies, as pets, in general useful animals (in civilian life and/or the military) or religious reasons
• that there was a recent advancement in agriculture, which increased its output, like the invention of a new better fertilizer or farming method (agriculture is always important, so there had to be a special invent)

[fading siren]

If the time frame would have been smaller, yes. But in thiss case the time frame is so large that civilisantions, cultures and peoples would have come and go. Simply by factors such as climate change, migrations and etc

Fire for example wasnt even discovered by our species irl but by our ancestors homo erectus

[fading siren]

According to that logic we would be in the neolithic rn, because we have agriculture

[solid saffron]

I forgor where is it found?

[fading siren]

(What I want to say is that they ofc would have had advancements and discoveries from the past)

[solid saffron]

Ih its little nuggies

[fading siren]

We have raw gold in game, so those nuggies are smelted gold

(Probaly they are the remains of gold coins)

[fading siren]

Like, show me a civilisation that existed since 2 milion years

[fading siren]

(Literally impossible)

[solid saffron]

me when the real world is minecraft

[fiery canyon]

I remember that calculating the quantity of how deep the trail ruins are from the surface, the trials could have been built from 14k years ago to 1.5k

[solid saffron]

could be

[fading siren]

There are basic universal concepts that can be applied to any work of fiction from irl, unless the work of fiction specifical states that something else happend/exists

[solid saffron]

can dont mean should

[fiery canyon]

or must

[solid saffron]

You can apply rocket science to mc too

[fading siren]

No you cant, because there are no rockets

[solid saffron]

the ideas of it ofc not any practical usecase

But that's my point anyway- yea you can apply these ideas to mc but that doesnt mean you should

[fading siren]

MC does not show that civilisations emerged diffrently then irl. Like for example in fantasy works in which the lore directly states that for example gods created advanced ancient civilisation which collapsed

[solid saffron]

What confuses me about modern day villagers is how a legend like this is spread around yet they seem to not really be fearful of piglins to any capacity (and in a somewhat related note piglins don't care for villagers either)

[solid saffron]

Nor does it show they did

[fiery canyon]

seal you wrote 2 mach, i might respond tmmrrw

[fading siren]

The other way around, it supports the existance of pre-history and early history having been similiar to how it was irl

Why else where all the beta descriptions of advanced items that mentioned the ancient villagers/illagers changed, except for the primitiv maulers and fox armor ?

[fiery canyon]

i need to read a book of prehistory history

or wikipedia

[solid saffron]

Yea thats bc its more relatable and makes sense

However we arent able to reason that therefore these civilizations wouldve been much like ancient irl civs

Especially with how physics actually works in this world and how that has a real impact on development of a civilizatiob

[fiery canyon]

If we say that vanilla is on the year 0 or even the year 1000, this would still fit the start of the neolithic

I'll also watch the interview of the TRs developer to have some clues

[solid saffron]

I just say trail ruins are old

the more i look into them the more irrelevant they look

[fiery canyon]

nah i like this strucutre

[solid saffron]

Who knows maybe relic's legends reference actually means anything

i do too and there are a lot of things that scream clue

but they just havent led anywhere yet

[fading siren]

Did I claim that ancient egypt existed in MC ? Or that the assyrian empire existed in MC ?

No, I did not

I took from history specificaly only general human development and applied them to MC

Yes, the specific dates themselfs probaly are diffrent, but the general development of civilisations is still the same. That being the stone age, neolithic and "metal ages" and the crucial discoveries and advancements specific to those ages. Only after the "metal ages" does MC history seemingly truly diverge from ours

[fiery canyon]

I have a theory of the TRs with the junglelagers, but i need to discuss rex first

[fading siren]

Literally confirmed by the devs to be not the case. The trail ruins are the only knowen structure where the devs developed the lore of their entire civilisation

Thats why it has such bad loot. Its a putr lorr structure

[solid saffron]

• Hyperfocus on colour and diversity
• 5 different types of trail ruin
• sherds
• central tower
• relic
• wayfinder, host, raiser, shaper

[solid saffron]

Sourc

[fiery canyon]

the interview i think

[fading siren]

Some interview with the devs. Ask RGN, he told me

[solid saffron]

I have that entire interview

[fiery canyon]

its the first pinned message

by you

[solid saffron]

Yea the idea with trail ruins is identical to the entirety of lore

hide it

Hide its meaning that is

that does not mean everything has equal value in meaning though

take say a desert well vs. an ancient city

Ruins have a lot of cool features but so far just do not lead anywhere and more imply cool things about how life was like rather than the lore of the world

[fading siren]

Literally does. The devs stated that those items for example where all put in the loot intentionaly

Because the trail ruins serve a pure lore purpose

[fiery canyon]

yeah true

[solid saffron]

and that would be cool, but the implications of what life was like from trail ruins are generic imo

[solid saffron]

Doesnt mean a strong one

They almost certainly did the same with Brewer and Arms Up

Does not mean Desert Wells are not some vital piece of info to lore

[fading siren]

Yeah ofc, they are about their own civilisation. But we can still use it to find out roughly when it existed and what age it was

[fading siren]

When is a villager going to encounter a piglin in-game ?

(Naturaly)

[solid saffron]

frog & magma cube

iron golem & every nether mob

[fading siren]

True

[solid saffron]

blaze & water

these are just precedents that tell us they totally can make those kinds of connections if they wanted to

Tbh, you can even argue wither skeleton & piglin and those are in the same dimension

[solid saffron]

Yes, though that neither of those things implies any crucial relevance to the lore either

they can (and imo looks like they mostly did) introduce a structure that's separate from a lot of the lore

[solid saffron]

I can totally be wrong, due all this

But that's just where i am rn

[fiery canyon]

Considering the trail ruins could have been spanned more than 10k years, the trail ruin culture could have progressed from the neolithic to the iron age

[solid saffron]

there's just so much trail ruins could do but they arent doing it

[solid saffron]

im also really against putting even estimated years on this kinda stuff given mj rarely does this

[fading siren]

The iron age irl happend from 1.200 BC to 550 BC

MC seems to be in its own version of the late medival ages. Irl those happend 1.300 - 1.500 AD

So from the lade medival ages perspective the iron age was 1.850 - 2.700 years ago, which is in that time frame

[solid saffron]

If mj says old, old is my number line

(well old -> young but yea)

[fiery canyon]

I mean its clearly the oldest structure in the game so far

[fading siren]

Yes, but it dosent mean its over 10.000 years old

[solid saffron]

Good chance of it

[solid saffron]

And we'll never know because we barely have a sense of what a year is lol

they give us the scale old -> young, thats what ill use

[fiery canyon]

It could

[fading siren]

Yes, but in those 10k years the trail ruins would have experienced multiple events such as migrations, natural disasters, climate change and etc. All of it could easily cause a bronze age collapse like civilisational collapse

[fading siren]

Not at all

[fiery canyon]

btw isnt like the nameless temple like couple of millenia old?

[fading siren]

Hm ?

Where is that said ?

[fiery canyon]

i think a nintendo switch quote

not rember exactly

zol forgor

lemme search it

[solid saffron]

Of it not being the oldest?

[fading siren]

That would make it 2.000 years old at minimum

Which would be in the iron age (700 - 500 BC) for the late medival era people irl

[fiery canyon]

i dont use nintendo as a reliable source

i use valentino as a reliable source

[solid saffron]

Article world

[fading siren]

We know that the kingdom was in decline, which could have been caused by the piglin invasion of the ow i MCs antiquity

The kingdom emerged (in irl dates) at the end of the iron age. It could very well have survived until MCs antiquity and then have been imortalised basicaly when it was turned into a undead kingdom

[fading siren]

Ah wait, it was destroyed millenia ago

[golden girder]

according to another article, the kingdom was collapsing due of the pride of its rulers

[solid saffron]

Do yall have those articles

[fiery canyon]

only valen i think

idk

[golden girder]

or aleast, its implied to had been the cause

[fading siren]

Well in that case it still could have been a civilisation from the iron age

[fading siren]

(When we use irl dates)

[golden girder]

Val has been compiling and saving all those articles

[fading siren]

Is there any diamond equipment in the NK and in wide scale use ?

[fading siren]

@golden girder

[golden girder]

most things implied to had been from the NK are mostly iron

[fading siren]

Yeah, that means we can be mostly certain that the NK ended during the iron age

[golden girder]

i mean, they also had lots of gold and emeralds

but yea

[fading siren]

Not revolutionary materials that would end the iron age and cause a new age

[fading siren]

@solid saffron so what about I cant apply irl history to MC ?

[golden girder]

unless one considers the regular necromancers

[solid saffron]

i mean id just say the same here lol

[golden girder]

they appears to have diamond details

[fading siren]

"Wide scale use"

[solid saffron]

All youve done is just assert that like the other irl claims so it isnt rly any different

[fading siren]

What I meant is likr wide scale use of diamond toolsy armor and etc

[solid saffron]

HEART OF THE SEA REAL!!!!

but glowing

[fading siren]

Also nothing about their clothing or staff contradicts them being from the iron age

[golden girder]

i never said it did tbh

just that they used diamonds in clothing

for aleast the high-rank members

tho they must value emeralds more than diamonds culturally

[solid saffron]

Could be as currency?

[fading siren]

I was just pointing it out

[fading siren]

Never claimed or thought that you did

[golden girder]

as their leader, the nameless one, uses emeralds

besides the necromancer, they also had diamond key golems

tho it maybe could had been post-collapse

there is the fact necromancers used to be enchanters
and if the illager enchanters are anything to go by, its kind of magic needs diamonds to some extend
but once again, high-class members

btw, i do think that maybe the end of the piglin war was the overworld's equivalent of year 1 CE

because i feel the war was major enough to reset some calendars

[fiery canyon]

makes sense. the devs also said the piglin invasion changed the entirety of the ow forever

like jebus did

[solid saffron]

Thats what happen when u shoot the moon with a laser beam

[fiery canyon]

they shoot the sun

or the second sun ig

[fading siren]

I agree, its either the start or end

[unkempt vapor]

this structure from the Trail ruins is very similar to this golem, it seems to be his totem

[fiery canyon]

Interesting observation, but i think the ancient villagers would have used a green glazed terracotta and that the creeper is intentionally placed to be a creeper one.

And seems that the golem is made more of mud bricks

[unkempt vapor]

vanilla minecraft does not have a large number of decorative blocks with faces

[unkempt vapor]

Maybe

[fiery canyon]

Or a emerald block too

considering emeralds are not that valuable

[fiery canyon]

You forgot that the neolithic revolution happened in different dates. For example in scandinavia (a region that closely resembles the ecoregions of the taigas) the first permanent settlements happened in the 4100-3800 BCE and the beginning of the iron age woukd occur at ~500 BCE.

This would greatly short the time frame to ~3500 years

this would be enough like IRL ancient egypt to exist

[fading siren]

Compare ancient egypt and trail ruins pls

[fiery canyon]

I'm saying this time frame is more reasonable that 10k years

which is what i understand is your critique

[fiery canyon]

dot

[tacit atlas]

@fading siren This debate gives me tears of joy.

Your usage of real world knowledge make happiness

[fading siren]

@tacit atlas wait fr ?

[fading siren]

Yes, but pls also look at the civilisations that lasted such long time periods

They (atleast to me) seem to be more sophisticated then the trail ruins

Not to mention we know that trail ruins had a metal shortage. Which is not poggers if you get invaded by somebody who dosent

[fading siren]

Also, it still dosent the problem in your anaysis thats is the trail ruins having discovered fire

Do I have to remind you how long ago it was discovered irl ?

And by who it was discovered

(The discovery of fire had to be before the emergence of lagers even in the MC world, because fire and the ability to cook meat and through cooking it getting more nutrients from it allowed us irl to evolve such a large brain in the first place)

[fading siren]

(By the way, I didnt forget it, I just didnt knew)

(About thiss specific case)

[fiery canyon]

This theory tries to connect the trails ruins with the fox armour and the relic disc. I think you should critic those connections i tried to make rather than the timespan.
Talking about the time period, although trail ruins are not that advanced like you said compared to other long lasting civs, i think i can counterweigh that saying that the landscape of the trail ruins are more defensive because the taigas and jungles are areas dense of trees and have harsh temperatures, better than for example the plains. Another possibility is that they have allied with another factions like heroes or desert kingdoms.

Not sure if they really had a metal shortage tbh, they have anvils, smelting furnaces and toolsmiths.

[fiery canyon]

kekw

[fiery canyon]

are we sure that lagers have large brains?

[fiery canyon]

True. Since the sherd is named 'burn' it cant mean smelting or cooking, because these things are not flammable and do not burn, possibly meaning the regular use of fire in the fireplaces burning coal. Although i did said if this wasnt the case it wouldn't affect my main theory.

[fading siren]

Look at their heads, it has space for bigger brain then humans

[fading siren]

But still have to use wooden tools, even tho they have access to metal

Thiss suggests imo that they didnt have enough iron

In other words, they had a iron shortage

[fading siren]

Also, I somehow only now realised thiss issue in your theory

The armors and the trail ruins are found in 2 diffrent lands

[fiery canyon]

Ocean ruins also have wooden hoes

[fading siren]

But the animal pelt armors are a basic kind of armor, so I guess location dosent really matter

[fading siren]

Intresting. Didnt knew that

[fiery canyon]

How so? Canines mainly spawn in taigas, and i argued why the trails ruins were primaraly settled in the taigas

[fading siren]

.

[fiery canyon]

For me this simply mean wooden hoes are easier to make, just stick two sticks instead of paying a toolsmith to smelt iron

[fiery canyon]

the fact is where the animals are naturally found

I'd argued the same if there were jaguar or ocelot armours

[tacit atlas]

Your usage of real events leads to a crap ton of cohesion of the ruins

[fading siren]

I dont exactly understand what you are trying to tell me in thiss message tbh (english being my thrid langauge go brrrrrr)

[fading siren]

Yeah, you are most likely right with thiss explanation

Then thiss whole iron shortage hypothesis can be throwen out of the window

[tacit atlas]

Using real life good 👍