Theory on the past of the illagers (by both Valentino and me)

[nova knot]

Thiss theory is based on these threads:
#1162513793427963954
(Thread is called: Analysis of the Maulers)
#1162517332158054410
(Thread is called: Adressing the illogical parts of MCL's origin story)
(click them to read them or search for them if the link is bugged)

Val and I dont think the Maulers ruin or deconfirm what the legend says and/or implies. They are primitive bear claws from ancient illagers, which perfectly fit the scenario of tribes or other groups of people hunting and using the resources to survive. These soldiers would've most likely been in good terms with villagers too, or if not, be in good terms whenever they meet or cross paths on the MCL continent. Villagers arent 100% pacifists that never kill either, since butchers exist. The legend and the real events would be showing the rise of warriors specifically, which causes the seperation between illagers and villagers on the MCL continent. A point where their beliefs finally conflict, though its not even a full separation as there are still grey villagers living among villagers when the warrior pushes a villager away in the ending cutscene.

I and Valentino believe that illagers developed from villager populations (the villagers of that time would like the illagers be refered as "ancient villagers") that inhabited more hostile ecosystems. These illagers would then have been the so called "ancient illagers" mentioned in the descriotion of the Maulers, which probaly first came into existance during the stone age or earlier. We also believe the hostile ecosystem/biome to be most likely the dark forests specificaly, because of the majority of the illagers inhabiting thiss biome and their choice of wood being from that biome. Also because of it being more darker allowing the undead (which we know from Rotai to also attack illagers) to survive at day easier then for example in a plains biome leading to the biome being more dangerous, which lead to the illagers being more aggressive and developing the warrior culture that the majority of them follows. Their grey skin could also be possibly be a result of the lack of sunlight in the dark forests. Maybe it for example allowed the ancient illagers to hide better in the darkness or it was just a result of the lack of melanin (And yes, it makes no sense irl, but grey skin developing naturaly is a thing in works of fantasy). The weapon (Maulers) wiedled by the soldiers of those ancient Illagers also seem to resemble a brown bear paw. Brown bears are an animal that fits to ecosystems like the dark forests. If brown bears acctualy inhabit or inhabitrd the dark fotests, then it would make the biome even more hostile.

At some point, the illagers (maybe when they still were the so called ancient illagers) would meet the villagers, adopting their peaceful society and culture (but not necessarily living in the same villages. Instead in neighbouring villages). A group of illagers would go to war (insentivised by the local situation of the illager villages), leading to the conflict between villagers and illagers on the MCL continent and eventually causing the cultural/ideological tensions and conflict that we see today.

The rise of the warriors doesnt immediately make illagers and villagers enemies, as its only a group of illagers that became warriors and others were still following the villager culture or inhabiting completly diffrent lands beyond the MCL continent. This is a gradual change and over time, more and more illagers would follow the warriors, adopting their ways. But not all would follow it, like possibly for example the Windcallers that seem to inhabit the island Gale and seem to be isolationist.

One thing that has to be made clear tho is that illagers raiding the villagers is not part of these cultural/ideological tensions and conflict. Raiding is something mostly economical that was irl done by many many many tribal peoples. And in the novel Rotai it is mentioned by Archie that illagers enter the territory of other tribes with bad intentions. Thiss probaly refers to illagers raiding eachother. Its probaly not refering to wars between tribes tho, because he would probaly say instead that other illagers invade the tereitory of other tribes. Also there is a solid theory that the other illagers besides the Windcallers invade the island Gale that is inhabit by these Windcallers

[wraith dirge]

Theory on the past of the illagers (by both Valentino and me)

[nova knot]

You can just edit other peoples threads as a mod ?

[wraith dirge]

Yeah lol

You misspelled my name, so i fixed it

[nova knot]

LOL

[wraith dirge]

Well, i would just like to clarify that while i do agree with the things mentioned in this theory, some of the details shared come from Seal's analysis. He is the one that wrote this conclusion after all. Though this conclusion did come from both of our theories, contributions and discussions

[nova knot]

I thought you agreed with it tho ?

[wraith dirge]

Yes, i do

Im just clarifying because some of the details are more analitical and whatnot, aka the way you theorize since you are the one who wrote it

[nova knot]

Ok

[wraith dirge]

👍

[ocean steeple]

So what I understood is that ancient proto-villagers existed and soon diverged into ancient villagers and ancient illagers whom go to their seperate paths until some time later the illagers come again into contact with their cousins (the villagers)

[nova knot]

Ye

Except the proto-villager part, that part was just made up by you

Also finaly I remember the word that I was searching for, "diverged"

[ocean steeple]

Might have used “lager” but I forgor about that terminology

[nova knot]

Lager is the fan name for the species of the villager, illagers and witches

[ocean steeple]

Whatever

[nova knot]

.

[terse rain]

Confirmation of ancient villagers?

also very very interesting how it also says tribes, it might be additional proof of more primitive societies in remote times

[terse rain]

Another interesting armour quote is this one, which confirms that living in the 'shadows' makes the appearance of creatures darker

[terse rain]

additional thought, as it explicitly says its an armour, meaning its used for defence and not for other misc use like clothing to combat cold temperatures - putting this in a similar place to the leather armour, which fits in with this "stone age" where metals are not yet used.

[nova knot]

Tribal societies can also be more advanced, like for example the current illager and villager tribes, or thr slavic, germanic and celtic tribes that existed irl

[nova knot]

Idk about that one

The description seems to be more like a metaphor to me

[terse rain]

well it doesnt look to be the case by the word "ancient"

[nova knot]

Yes ik, just saying that tribes dosent automaticaly mean they are primitiv like the stone age people

[terse rain]

fair

[terse rain]

This cant be the case

I should have shown both pics together

[nova knot]

Yeah, thiss one does imply shadow = grey skin being an advantage

[nova knot]

But thiss one probaly refers to the wearer of the armor as wolf and not the wolf from which thiss armor was made

Because as we both can see

Thiss wolf did not "live to tell the tale"

[nova knot]

Wait. I just realised. Thiss implies ancient villagers valued great warriors

Makes sense, considering that pacifism would get you killed in those harsher times

[fierce stone]

well, originally, the descriptions would reveal the villagers werent pacifists even up to the iron age ( as the spear and double axe are made of iron)
of course, those descriptions were chnaged in the final release, so idk if it counts, but just a neat info im sharing

[nova knot]

Wait, what spear and double axe ?

[terse rain]

do the maulers and the fox armour say something else in the mcd beta

do they even appear in the beta?

[fierce stone]

The default ones from MCD

Beta descriptions, of course

[terse rain]

what do they say

[terse rain]

Further confirmation

now who are the ancient villagers soldiers attacking to

cuz you said that the ancient illagers were in good terms withthe ancient villagers

[fierce stone]

here

its the beta descriptions tho

idk if it counts, just sharing cus its neat

also the beta description of the death cap mushroom

[terse rain]

A bit strange how one weapon is 'noble' but the other one is barbaric

[fierce stone]

yeah, i even speculate that originally, it was gonna be "noble" villagers and "salvage" villagers

but the "salvage" villagers were changed to illagers in the final version

like i do wonder how the mauler's description would had been in this beta

[terse rain]

i mean yes, but both weapons comes from the same place

[fierce stone]

"These claw-like weapons, wielded by ancient barbaric villagers, are savage in battle."
or something like, i speculate

[terse rain]

so the unused mission of the andesite hills would have something to do with ancient people?

[fierce stone]

presumably yeah, or maybe a place full of ancient ruins and remains

[terse rain]

maybe it got cancelled due to conflicting storytelling of the story

[fierce stone]

technically, it appears andesite falls are in the final map, but there isnt a mission there

[terse rain]

like how it says ancient villagers are noble and barbaric at the same time?

[fierce stone]

i mean, it doesnt contradict

some villager tribes would had been noble

others would had been barbaric

[fierce stone]

this part here

its very noticiable landmark, but there isnt a mission in there

also, its was called two names: Andesite Falls and Andesite Hills

Falls as in waterfalls, which you can see in that place

and Hills, due to, well, the clearly hilly and mountainous terrain in that part

[terse rain]

But from the same place?

[fierce stone]

yeah

[terse rain]

Or they were really barbaric but after a certain point were they were 'pacified'

[fierce stone]

i dont think villagers in general were pacifists

in those times

it just that some villager tribes would had been more "barbaric" than others

[terse rain]

The current fox armour already tells that

you wont spark fear into the heart of your enemies if you had a pacific livestyle

[fierce stone]

yeah

so, the spear and double axe are made of iron

which means they werent pacifist up to the iron age

in this beta context of course

i do wonder if this could tie in MCL

as maybe, that era of peace and stuff, were due of villagers adopting the pacisfistic lifestyle

after the iron age

since its been speculated MCL takes place in the overworld's antiquity

[nova knot]

Not all of them ofc. Also they would have fought eachother

Like look at irl

We humans are constantly fighting eachother

[terse rain]

i think the beta has at least partial credibility. Doesnt the beta tells us the mace used by piglins in MCL and illagers guardians come from the the nether, which makes sense?

[nova knot]

Or lets look at a more specific place. Europe. They also historicaly fought eachother alot

Even the members of the same ethnicity, like for example the germans, did it

[fierce stone]

well, some things still appears to work, others are clearly outdated

[nova knot]

So the question is easy to answer. They fought the enemies of their invidual tribe and wild animals

[terse rain]

hmm i accept this. It explains why the spear says its noble and the axe is barbaric, cuz they were used by different tribes

[terse rain]

I think the mushroom desc is accurate

it simply changed ancient villagers to daring warriors

[fierce stone]

the beta descriptions also mentions the great split of illagers and villagers

[nova knot]

Huh ?

Blacksmiths ?

Thats not very caveman

Well, probaly the reason why thiss description got redconed

It seems like it was even made before the concept of ancient villagers/illagers was made

[fierce stone]

still, there is the fact this descriptions mentions the great hammer was adopted by the illagers and the great hammer stormlander, is also said to be of illager origin

i wonder if its inspired by that

[fierce stone]

well, ancient villagers already existed in this beta

in the spear, double axe, wolf armor and death cap mushroom descriptions

ancient evokers are also mentioned

tho, from what i conclude in this beta , anything that come before the ender days, is ancient

is as if the ender days is the period that is in-between the "ancient" times and the "modern" times

[nova knot]

The thing, is we have to take into consideration that all off thiss was removed again

The only items left that mention ancient illagers or ancient villagers are primitiv items

[fierce stone]

true, but i do wonder how many was removed due of retcon and how many due of just simplification or simple ommission

[nova knot]

I think they first wanted to go to a fantasy version of ancient people, but then switched to how its irl

[fierce stone]

at the same time, couldnt this split be referring to the end of the peaceful coesxisting between illagers and villagers in MCL

[nova knot]

You mean the one which makes 0 sense if you see it as the origins of the illagers ?

[fierce stone]

i mean the one that you speak of in the MCL server

[wraith dirge]

Mmm... yeah, this makes sense. You needed to hunt to survive and its basically like IRL prehistoric times, noticeably harsh and without developments

But it does make me wonder how the pacifist culture appeared and developed, given the strength it has nowadays. Maybe it could have something to do with the hosts and what they represent in the legend? I know they could also just be their culture personified as beings that promote it, but there could also be real inspiration for them. Maybe Holey or the sun entity?

But there's also the fact that illagers have the exact opposite, a hostile culture taken to the extreme. Maybe its just that both species took both sides to the extreme naturally, leading to the tension we see today

[nova knot]

Ah. Thats the one in thiss thread lol

Wait

You watching me ?

[nova knot]

(Said the same)

[nova knot]

Maybe there were 3 prophets that promoted pacifism to the world. It having been most successfull in the MCL continent

Those prophets are either a non mythologised version of the hosts or the basis for the leader positions that the hosts might represent in a mythologisied form

[nova knot]

Well, we established that illagers have the exact opposit because of a natural tendency towards violence and them having been fricked by the war so hard the illagers of the MCL continent left the MCL illager villager union and formed the ideology that I refer to as "warriorism"

[wraith dirge]

Yeah, makes sense

[nova knot]

Lol

[terse rain]

It doesnt say ancient, prolly it happened after or in the iron age

[nova knot]

I disagree

All items which mention ancient illagers and ancient villagers are primitiv. Also "ancient species/race/sub- species" refers to the ancestors of the species/race/sub-species. And those lived in the stone age, unless the story clearly states that the devs used the "advanced ancient ancestors trope"

Nvm

[nova knot]

I just read the "dosent"

Ignore what I said

Also that description is from the beta

[nova knot]

I just realised. If thats really the case, then why is the hammer on the MCD continent and not the MCL continent ?

[terse rain]

lol

[wraith dirge]

That sounds interesting, especially considering the other things mentioned about the hosts

According to MCL, Knowledge created the Firsts, which would've shaped the Overworld to how it is. They are also said to be caretakers of the Overworld. Perhaps there was a prophet that matched each host's trait. One with knowledge, one with action and one with foresight. The knowledge one would've made the Firsts, perhaps to create the population's homes and protect ancient villagers which translates to shaping the Overworld. Same goes for cobblestone and plank golems, while These villagers would've also had the authority or a role with similar traits to be considered caretakers or translate as such afterwards. The only thing missing would be the allays, connected to the hosts and very much real. Im not sure where they would come from in this case

Its one of those things where i see the posibility of the hosts and especially their dimension being real to an extend

[nova knot]

By the way, I forgot the word "continent" after the word "MCL"

[nova knot]

@wraith dirge

[wraith dirge]

Im still here

And... are you saying the war only took place in one continent?

[nova knot]

No

Just that the union of illagers and villagers seen in MCL was only on the MCL continent

Because yk, I am against the existance of the majority of global empires in MC

[wraith dirge]

I mean, i dont think the union between the two happening in other continents would be an empire

Just that multiple tribes would've chill with each other

But yeah, the main events happen in one continent and the ideologies are later spread. The same would apply with the prophets, which is what i imagine you meant to say

[nova knot]

• You need to enforce it tho

• Then how do we explain the inhabitance of the MCL continenr to have states in the legend that they wrote that their land was the entire ow ? (Remember, its a normal thing for isolated peoples that are unaware of land bejond their own land to see their land as the entire world)

[nova knot]

Those prophets could have been also on another continent and the ideology of pacifism simply spread to the MCL continent, meanwhile a diffrent version of it might have spread to the vanilia MC lands trail ruin civilisations

[nova knot]

I just said that the hosts might be myhtologised prophets or something based on them

But its just an idea. I didnt really develop that idea

[wraith dirge]

• Enforce what? The ideologies?

• Yeah, fair point. I think it goes without saying, but the war possibly went further than just one continent, but other areas didnt have noteworthy events like those in the MCL continent

[wraith dirge]

Also possible considering what you just said about isolated people considering their land as the entire world

[wraith dirge]

I know, i just liked it and wanted to further develop it myself

[nova knot]

• the political union

• ofc, but the MCL inhabitance didnt knew it, because they didnt knew that there even was more land beyond the ocean

[wraith dirge]

• Would it have to be political if its nearby tribes just accepting the other's existances?

• Yeah, the ocean is even stated to be mysterious in MCL

[fierce stone]

its something i think we are not ready for the conversation yet

[nova knot]

• a union is a form of politicial entitiy, so yes

• ah, nice

[nova knot]

We do not know how the union exactly was. If it was a federation or confederation. So I just say it was a political union of the illagers and villagers on the MCL continent.

Such political unions irl are the USA, Russian Federation, Fereative Republic of Germany and etc. All countries as you can see

[nova knot]

I hypothesise it to have been a federation tho. The legend depicts villagers and illagers as equal, but I think it might be propaganda. Villagers seem to have a way closer bond to the ideology of pacifisim then illagers. Imo thiss might suggest that villagers were the dominat group in the federation and even its rulers. Which was another factor why the majority of illagers on the MCL continent turned to warriorism and left the federation

So yes, when I am talking about the union of illagers and villagers in MCL, I am talking about a country and not some alliance or something like that

[nova knot]

Begining of the thread