Theory: Villagers and Illagers Used to Live Together.

[heavy lotus]

I think villagers and Illagers used to live and work together

also, if you're gonna join to contribute to the theory in any way WITHOUT evidence, please don't. this includes trying to add onto it without evidence for your point

also please accept when you're wrong, as well. i want to try to get to a conclusion, not to start an argument

[fossil river]

.

[heavy lotus]

hey

anything you would like to add?

Nyoea?

also i just now noticed that seal joined xd

[spare oasis]

I will talk later here

[tulip frost]

Fireflamo was the first person I know to propose this theory
While not confirmed, it makes a lot of sense

[heavy lotus]

do you yourself have anything to add?

anyways, while not concrete evidence, here's a thought i had that could add onto this theory:
first off, Illagers only really dislike the villagers and the players, yet for some reason they capture Allays. to be fair, it can be assumed that they did so because they helped the players, but then again, so did plenty of other mobs that they don't attack. so i feel like they primarily dislike the villagers, and Allays used to live in villagers or something, and when they got outcasted from the villages, they took Allays with them, along with the iron golems

i don't have evidence for that, but it's a thought i had relating to the theory, and wanted to know what everyone else thought about it

[delicate latch]

Isn't it.... canon

Like that's confirmed to have been the case

[spare oasis]

No

[heavy lotus]

what is?

[delicate latch]

That illagers were kicked out of villager society at one point

[spare oasis]

No, like I said

It isnt confirmed

[heavy lotus]

nope, all that's confirmed is that they're linked in some way

[old sphinx]

Since their name is derived from the phrase “ill-willed villager” and the Minecraft Mobestiary (which, while not entirely canon, likely has some truthful elements due to being published under Mojang) says they were expelled from villages due to their unspeakable activities, it’s almost certain that what you’re saying was the intent for their creation

[delicate latch]

Huh

This is what the Mandela effect must feel like

[heavy lotus]

i mean, since the mobestiary, like you said, isn't entirely canon, i will accept that as evidence unless it can be disproven

[spare oasis]

The mob biestiary isnt canon at all

It isnt even reliabel

[heavy lotus]

i mean it has some canon information, but i see your point

[spare oasis]

(Outdated and a book full of speculations and theorists accroding to the mob biestiaries lore)

[spare oasis]

I will talk another day, today thiss server just fricked my head

[old sphinx]

Even without the Mobestiary being canon, it’s still a reasonable hypothesis regarding the split considering the out-of-universe origin of their name and the cultural differences

The Mandela effect is hitting me too though, I could’ve sworn what you proposed was canon too. Perhaps the “exiled” line was based on something a dev said

[spare oasis]

Me after I realise that I was not affected by it: "Come on..... hands.... do lighting"

[heavy lotus]

what

[gusty narwhal]

Just because the Naturalist was confirmed to be unreliable does not mean that the book is not canon. It just means that the book exists in-universe and that the Naturalist likes mixing truth with speculations and opinions. If anything, it develops the Naturalist as a character and can be beneficial for theories relating specifically to the Naturalist.

[spare oasis]

Thats not why I say that the book is not canon

Thats why I say that the book is unreliabel, even if its canon

The reasons why the mob biestiary isnt canon:
-lack of an reliabel official confirmation
-lack of an updated version/outdated (showing that the devs see no value in it [except that it makes profit] and thus dont update it)
-jeb said that Rise of the Arch Illager is the only canon book

[spare oasis]

And lets assume that the mob biestiary

How tf is the naturalist suposed to get even close to the illagers without being killed

[gusty narwhal]

@spare oasis The author of the book did state that the reason why the Naturalist is unreliable is because they lack understanding of the mobs that they write about, hence why we do not know why specifically the Illagers were cast out, we just know that they were. The Naturalist did not need to be able to get close to the Illagers to know that.

Also, the Naturalist’s illustrations show a great deal of speculation. How do we know whether or not creepers actually have TNT within them? The illustration by the Naturalist could be fictitious on their part or it could be true.

There is a model of the same idea in the House in the Minecraft Dungeons Camp. Whoever made this model was either inspired by the Naturalist’s illustration, or the Naturalist based their opinions of creepers on the model, not wanting to get close to an actual creeper.

[spare oasis]

I was talking about claims like "they cant reproduce"

[spare oasis]

The model in MCD dosent have TNT, it just has a red block

[spare oasis]

Also, you dont have to tell me all of that, because I already know it

[heavy lotus]

ok wait why is the mobestiary still being discussed? xd

[spare oasis]

Idk

[spare oasis]

I disagree, because it dosent make sense if treated as an world wide event that happend in every village.

First we have to establish what exactly are illagers and villagers. There are 3 claims, from what I have seen. They are 2 cultures and the same species, they are 2 races and the same species or they are 2 seperate species.

They only have 1 biological diffrence (their skin color), so there are enough diffrences to support the claim that they are 2 diffrent species.

In vanilia MC we can see diffrent villager cultures and in MCD we can also see diffrent illager cultures. So they cant be 2 seperate cultures.

The only option left is that they are 2 seperate races, which makes sense considering their small biological diffrence and further seperation into multiple cultures.

Now we can come to the claim of thiss thread and why I disagree with it if seen as a worldwide event.

Its impossible that every single settelment populated by the villagers in the ow has the exact same historical event at some point in their histories, considering the advancements that have been reached by the civilsations of the ow. It also dosent make sense that every village had the same demographics, considering the demographics irl rn and throughout history.

Yes there might have been villages with mixed populations of illagers and villagers, which at some point in time casted out their illager population for diffrent reasons. But there is no way that it would have been in all the villages in the ow. There were definetly already homogenous settelments populated with only villagers or only illagers. And there probaly still are villages with mixed populations, like we see in MCL. And there already were probaly cultures of the illagers and villagers that dont fit the idea of all illagers being outcasts. Like the illagers in gale or the lagers in the MCD junglr temple and ocean monument.

[heavy lotus]

what

skin color makes them a different species?

[spare oasis]

And by the way, Rotai shows that villagers and illagers can coexist, because archie was abel to live for some time in an village.

And Rotai also shows that the raiding of the illagers is an lifestyle and not some kind of mission or plan to get revenge. Which makes sense considerint that the illagers (atleast the once in MCD) live in tribes (according to Rotai) and raids were irl a normal thing that tribal societies did

[heavy lotus]

oh wait i misread what you said sorry

[heavy lotus]

that still sorta supports the theory though? not the "illagers want revenge" aspect of it, which isn't part of the main theory, it's just a possible explanation i had for their behavior

[spare oasis]

The reason why I get so aggressive when I am confronted with such theories, is because its basic knowledge (atleast to me) that such thing as an worldwide historical event of that kind in basicaly the medival era is impossible. Not even today such thing could happen, since there would be countries and communities that decide to shelter and protect the ones being outcasted.

And I get so aggresive because I had to explain thiss already so often that I cant count anymore how often it acctualy was

[heavy lotus]

like- if they can live together, I'm sure it's possible that they used to live together at one point, until they left

also there's the possibility that it's a religion based thing, if the villagers did indeed outcast them (again, not trying to say they did, just looking at possibilities)

anyways, not to be mean, but so far you've been focusing on the possibile explanation i had for why they act the way they do. is there anything you have to say about the theory itself?

[spare oasis]

I agree, if you refer to a specific region having a mixed population that had an event causing a part of the population to be outcasted. But only if it was a specific region and not the entire ow. There definetly were already homogenous illager/villager settelments and there probaly still are settelments with mixed populations

[heavy lotus]

I'm not saying there aren't

anyways, like i was saying, do you have anything to say about the main theory itself?

[spare oasis]

Also, the architecture of the illager implies that most of them arent outcastd. They live in a completly diffrent type or settelment or in outposts. People that were outcasted from a village wouldnt have the time and ressources to develop an completly seperate lifestyle and type of settelment. They would build what they know, villages. Which over time would become diffrent because of cultural changes, but still remain a village.

Just look at cities or towns irl, they are basicaly just bigger villages

[heavy lotus]

Seal

[spare oasis]

I wrote that I disagree with the theory, if it claims that it was a worldwife event

[heavy lotus]

can you not cherry pick things please?

[spare oasis]

What do you mean ?

[heavy lotus]

you're focusing exclusively on the concept of "illagers being outcasts" rather than the theory as a whole

[spare oasis]

Isnt the theory that the illagers are outcasts ?

[heavy lotus]

no

reread the thread name

that was just a possible explanation i had at first

[spare oasis]

Irl example:
The spanish once forced every non christian to convert to christianity or be forced to leave the country. A large amount of jews were among those people. But on the same continent there were countries that let the jews come in their country and settle in their land (poland and ottoman empire for example)

[heavy lotus]

true

moving on from that

what do you have to say about the theory itself

[spare oasis]

I agree, but I think that there probaly are still settelments or atleast civilisations were illagers and villagers live toghter

[heavy lotus]

i do too

[spare oasis]

And like I said, coexistance is possible

[heavy lotus]

they're just not shown in Minecraft

[spare oasis]

Yeah, because thats litterly impossible for the AI of vanilia MC and the story of MCD

[heavy lotus]

which makes sense because they'd have to rewrite quite a bit of code to make that possible

[spare oasis]

Vanilia MC needs an AI update despratley anyways lol

[heavy lotus]

not impossible for the AI, just would take a lot of time

XD

tbh Minecraft needs quite a bit of updates to improve the quality of the game. not that it's terrible, just that it would be nice for it to seem fresh

[spare oasis]

Like, the fricking indie game rainworld litterly created a far more complex and overall better AI then fricking Mojang which is owned by fricking Microsoft

[heavy lotus]

the animations aren't the best and a combat update would be nice too

[spare oasis]

And I am even playing a game rn that has fixed its "buerocratic issues" and now is abel to bring way more updates and content then fricking Mojang

[heavy lotus]

also even if they don't update animations, even just adding new ones would be neat

[spare oasis]

And thiss game is one of the games that isnt rlly liked by the strategy games community of paradox (the game is stellaris)

[heavy lotus]

like- the newer mobs are more expressive than the older ones

[heavy lotus]

to be fair, Mojang can easily add new content, they just wanna make sure the content is what fans want, and some things take more time to add at the level of quality they're looking for

anyways this is getting off topic, perhaps we shall move to Minecraft discussion?

[spare oasis]

For example the new free update and DLC "First Contact" was anounced way later then the MC update rn in development but was released last month. And it has overall more content the the MC update currently in development

[spare oasis]

The content is good lol

And I didnt see any complains by the community (stellaris)

[heavy lotus]

well yeah, I'm sure they do things differently though

it would be weird if they had the exact same standards

anyways, let's head to #minecraft-discussion though for this

[spare oasis]

It even had content that was kinda revolutionary for the game (special AI empire that is tied to an origin, cloaking related technologies, primitive origins, primitive technology, technology that can be learned from primitives and archeology related technology)

[spare oasis]

I am finished with my complaining of Mojangs inability anyway

[heavy lotus]

anyways, so we're in agreement then for the theory, right?

[spare oasis]

Yes, if you dont see it as a worldwide thing

[heavy lotus]

so, how do you think pillagers play into this?

like do you see them as their own group separate from the illagers that live in mansions, or do you think the other illagers also use outposts?

[spare oasis]

I saw the outposts as being under the authority of the closest mansion, but I just got an idea rn

[heavy lotus]

cuz like- other illagers help with raids, obviously, but you never see pillagers in woodland mansions

oh, what is it?

[spare oasis]

Pillagers are merceneries which are hired during raids or any other millitary campaignd

Only under the illager empire they were integrated into the empire

[heavy lotus]

makes sense, although why would they have a leader then?

[spare oasis]

Thiss explains why they are outside of the mansions and are all soldiers

[spare oasis]

They have one, the one with the banner

[heavy lotus]

yeah ik

if they're mercenaries, wouldn't they just work for whoever is paying them for the job?

so they wouldn't have a leader amongst themselves

[spare oasis]

The problem with the outposts being under the authority of the mansions and the illager tribes having a standing army is the logistical challange of keeping them under control any supplying them

[spare oasis]

No ? Yes, you can basicaly make a all the members be the rulers, but a leader of their mercenery wouldnt be a bad or impossible thing

[heavy lotus]

true

good point

also unrelated, but honestly, illagers are much better builders than villagers XD

i kinda wanna know what a village built by an illager would look like xd

[spare oasis]

Not rlly

[heavy lotus]

wdym

[spare oasis]

I dont see why they are better builders, they just live in diffrent types of structures

[heavy lotus]

I'm saying that because illager structures have more detail in them

[spare oasis]

Thats just mojang being mojang

[heavy lotus]

wdym

[spare oasis]

They cant do the structures more detailed, because they probaly wouldnt have enough time for that and the structures we see are probaly more complex and detailed in lore. Like the structures in MCD

[heavy lotus]

oh- that makes sense

[heavy lotus]

I'm sure they could tbh

[spare oasis]

Yeah, but people like me would be more pissed about the updates taking so long

Like fr, I need to wait fricking months so I can use hanging signs in my world ? (bedrock)

Even tho I need them now to build something

[heavy lotus]

uh yeah?

considering hanging signs aren't the only feature in the update??

also the update as a whole is pretty cool so i don't see why you're complaining???

also you don't need to wait

there's something called bedrock previews

and Bedrock betas

[spare oasis]

I need to install a special version for that and have go make a world in thag special version, so I cant use them in the world that I currently use

Like for example in my fantasy medival creative world

[heavy lotus]

meaning you quite literally don't need to wait, so why are you really complaining

or did you genuinely not realize that bedrock betas are a thing

[spare oasis]

Ik they are, but you cant use stuff from the betas in a normal world

[heavy lotus]

honestly, at this point some people are complaining just to complain so it's kinda hard to tell

[heavy lotus]

why do you need them in a normal world?

like why can't you have a bedrock beta world?

[spare oasis]

Because I need them in buildings located in a normal world

[heavy lotus]

is it a world you already started?

[spare oasis]

Y e s

[heavy lotus]

oh

well still

guess you'll just have to wait

it'll take only one or two more months anyways

Mojang tends to release updates in the middle of the year

[spare oasis]

Its a world where I make a fantasy late medival world, when I will copy it when I am finished and then send it as a to late birthday gift to my very close friend

I am now working over 1 year on it

[spare oasis]

And me having to wait slows down the progress

[heavy lotus]

when is their birthday?

[spare oasis]

I think that the update lacks content for an update that is being developed by company that owns a game with around 700 million players worldwide for around half a year

It just shows that Mojang is suffering from some kind of buerocratic problems which make the game suffer too

[delicate latch]

I'm actually of the opinion that when illagers and villagers "lived together" they were all just villagers

Then Billy Bob decided to practice the dark arts or like, Jerry punched John in the face and they just got kicked out and at some point they either became illagers or banded together and then became illagers depending on what theory of illager creation you subscribe to

I personally think that a sort of evolution took place but I also don't consider ravagers screwed up villagers so my opinions are dumb I guess

[delicate latch]

I feel the impending need to tell you that programming updates for the actual base game takes time

And don't even try to compare that to mod making
It is not the same process

[spare oasis]

I am very well aware of that, thats why I compare it to other games with less players and funding that for some reason make a way better job at developing then fricking Mojang which is owned by fricking Microsoft

[spare oasis]

Ofc it takes time, but depending on the efficiency of development it either takes less or more time

[delicate latch]

Ok cool
Just making sure because the argument is always "well modders take a few months to update thier mods" like ok xXDarkWolfXx updating his sparkledog mod isn't the same as a company effort jimmy

[spare oasis]

Yes, but its still a shame that a company like Mojang is being outcompeted by companies and indi devs with less funds, popularity and players

Stellaris for example. It manages to release more content in some months then mojang in half a year

[errant relic]

alest is better than valve with TF2

that thing is what true content starving is like

[delicate latch]

Oh valve is supposed to update tf2?

[heavy lotus]

less players?

that means less people that you'd need to worry about

[spare oasis]

That means less players giving your game popularity and sales

[heavy lotus]

yes but more sales in the long run

[spare oasis]

Less populariy and less sales means less funds

[spare oasis]

No

[heavy lotus]

quite literally yes

[spare oasis]

Less funds means less capabel of producing content

[heavy lotus]

if people are buying your game and enjoy it a lot, they might tell their friends about it, increasing it's popularity and resulting in more people buying it

[spare oasis]

But a game with more popularity would have it easier to get even more popularity

And more popularity vrings more players, which bring more sales and funds

[heavy lotus]

however in the case of Minecraft, although there are a lot of people who have it, if Mojang adds things nobody wants, that will cause the sales to go down

[spare oasis]

And Minecraft has around 600 Million players

Not to mention the sales from merch, spin offs and etc

[delicate latch]

also i mean considering you have said that indie games produce more content anyway wouldnt you say that less money maybe doesnt mean less content

i mean sure it does but i mean
theyre producing more of it

also for the record

indie games dont usually have higher ups with thier own agendas

if you ask me i think mojang should take more time to polish up thier updates and add stuff in

cave update 1-3 was a mess

[spare oasis]

You understood me wrong

Indie games like rainworld are abel to outcompete Mojang in things like AI in thiss specific case

[spare oasis]

The thing is, they wouldnt need more time if they would do it more effciently

Which is very well possible if the development is reformed and reorganised

[fossil river]

Lots of games outdo Minecraft in many different ways

[spare oasis]

For example the game stellaris suffered from the same problem, which was even more extreme in its case. But it did reforms and reorganised their developers into an team developing new features and a team updating and reworking existing features. Leading to major success and higher sales.

These higher sales and the higher sales in other games like eu4, hoi4 and etc allowed paradox interactive now to centralise development in stockholm. Which will be beneficial for development in the long term

[fossil river]

starting with even as simple as the style of game

[spare oasis]

The game style is iconic to MC, so I am not sure if you can outcompete MC in thiss part

[fossil river]

yea but its a pretty awful shooter

[delicate latch]

i wont lie to you rainworld ai is not exactly the same as minecraft ai in a fundemental sense

minecraft is a sandbox and rainworld is a whole ecosystem

also

rainworld doesnt update like minecraft

last big thing was downpour and thats a whole dlc

[spare oasis]

Its far superior then MCs AI tho

[spare oasis]

Dlcs are basicaly updates behind a paywall

[delicate latch]

its also for another purpose

minecraft ai isnt supposed to be insanely complicated

rainworld is, again, an ecosystem and its supposed to be complex because it doesnt treat the other creatures as just npcs

[spare oasis]

Minecrafts AI is suposed to jump on a slab for 7 weeks straight

[delicate latch]

yea, its stupid because its not supposed to be smart

minecraft is supposed to be accessible to all ages and rainworld is, from what i hear, insanely difficult

[spare oasis]

Which to some extend makes the survival and sandbox aspect of the game worse

[delicate latch]

literal children play this game

im not saying children arent smart enough to master minecraft but its a game for everyone, so the ai isnt exactly gonna be complex and intelligent

pillagers literally shoot each other and its considered an entire feature that theyre stupid

[spare oasis]

I argue that the difficulty is an integral part of rainworld

[delicate latch]

well yes, its supposed to be hard

its not supposed to be easy

minecraft on the other hand

[spare oasis]

Show me a game that has 0 children playing it

[delicate latch]

you get my point

i dont think rainworld and minecraft are comparable

its not a good comparison, rainworld is honestly too complex, its ai low key kinda outcompetes a lot of games

[spare oasis]

Ik

1 dude outcompeted most games AI

[delicate latch]

yes, so i cant say its a good comparison

its meant to be this way, its meant to be insanely compex

not every game can or even needs to be rainworld

sometimes you dont need insanely complex ai

in fact id say most times

[spare oasis]

I am not saying that MC needs insanely complex AI

[delicate latch]

i am saying that youre comparing it to somthing thats a little too complex

[spare oasis]

I am saying that MC lacks in AI and needs improvement in it. Which it kinda did with foxes for example

[delicate latch]

comparing it to rainworld ai is a bit unfair

also bro

do you really think theyd touch old mobs

they look so old and basic compared to the new mobs but id be lying if i told you i though it was going to ever change

[spare oasis]

I am comparing a game made by 1 dude with an game that has around 600 million players, billions of dollars, insane popularity and that is owned by microsoft

So yeah, its rlly unfair that I compare rainworld to MC

[delicate latch]

yes

i dont see how the money and team is relavant to the ai

we are talking soley about the ai

the thing is that rainworld ai is too complex to even compare most games to it reguardless of how much money or how many people made it

it is not in the same ballpark

[spare oasis]

More ressources to develop a better AI

[delicate latch]

it still does not matter

[spare oasis]

It does

[delicate latch]

it doesnt because again, intetion

again, rainworld ai is super complex compared to most games
minecraft is a sandbox with more simple and predictable ai

[spare oasis]

You need labour and funds to even develop something in the 1st place and MC has way more ressources then rainworld

[delicate latch]

this is about the money, not the ai

i am talking soley about the ai

its not fair to compare simple predictable ai to a complex and unpredictable ai

that is it

if you were talking about another game with better ai but not rainworld ai then that would be more fair

[spare oasis]

Even the complex and unpredictable AI was abel to me made by a drasticaly lower workforce and with less funds then the simple predictable AI ?

[delicate latch]

regaurdless of wether its indie or triple a or Pong

[delicate latch]

that is not what this is about

[spare oasis]

Money and labour are important to any feature

[spare oasis]

It is

[delicate latch]

it is still not what this is about

it is unfair to compare the ai
you are talking about the funds behind it

i am talking about how the ais are meant for different games

totally different games

of course its not the same

[spare oasis]

I am critising Mojangs ability to make content and their ability to update MC, because game studios and individuals with way less ressources and popularity then Mojang manage to outcompete them

[spare oasis]

So yes, thiss is what this discussion is about

[delicate latch]

indie games also dont have higher ups breathing down thier necks

or fans

other than like, silksong

who has many feral fans waiting for it

sure

mojang/microsoft may not be doing things the best way

i coul agree with that but im not part of mojang so i have no idea whats going on in there

who knows whats making them have slow updates

[spare oasis]

I dont, but I think that an outsider can understand what kind of problems Mojang might face from observing their behavior and the behavior of other studios

[delicate latch]

i also know that minecraft is on a outdated version of java and i imagine its not exactly helping with things

also how did we get to the topic of talking about the money behind minecraft this is supposed to be about lagers

i can agree with you that mojang might not be handling things in the most efficient way, and therefore updates are slow, though i still think that if nothing at mojang changes then they should take longer to polish it out

also could you imagine extremely freqeuent minecraft updates

i think itd be too much

[spare oasis]

In think its because of such kind of issues:
-decentralisation (java - bedrock split
-buerocratic problems slowing effciency down which slows progress down
-maybe to some extend lazyness
-maybe certain developing phases are to long, like the time when you have to design and redesign a feature
-java edition problem that you just mentioned
-ineffcient organisation of developers

[delicate latch]

i personally think if the updates came more often people would get burnt out quicker

i think they should focus on qualtiy instead of quantity

i mean

if they did make it more effeicent think of all the polishing they could do in the same timeframe

[spare oasis]

Quantity is not neccisarly the opposit of quality

[delicate latch]

no, but i think the updates should focus more on quality more than quantity

[spare oasis]

For example stellaris, the quantity of features is freater then that of MC, but also the features quality

[delicate latch]

and again, imagine a new update every, like, 6 months

thats a little too fast if you ask me

[spare oasis]

And like I said, they seemed to suffer from a very similiar issue causing development to be even slower, until they fixed it through reforms and an reorganisation

[delicate latch]

who knows maybe mojang will fix thier thing and make better yearly updates

[spare oasis]

Imagine an update every 4 - 6 months that has better quality then the currents update we get

[delicate latch]

too much minecraft

literally too many updates

[spare oasis]

Thiss is basicaly what stellaris does and last year they even released 3 updates

[delicate latch]

it would be like having your favorite sandwhich thrown at you every day, youd get tired of it real fast

and not just once a day either

every meal

[errant relic]

i guess some people enjoy the slower pace of updates and some dont

[delicate latch]

can we go back to illagers now

[spare oasis]

E

[delicate latch]

[spare oasis]

#1035629540451561482 I was having a convo about illagers in thiss chat at the same time we had ours lol

[delicate latch]

*thats not-

imagine modders trying to update thier mods every 4 months

[spare oasis]

Stellaris modders do that

[delicate latch]

that was retortical but can we please acutally go back to illagers now

what were we even talking about

[spare oasis]

#1035629540451561482 just go here, since the discussion shifted into that chat for some reason

Its my thread anyway so I allow it

[delicate latch]

i was just talking about my evolution theory and that im probably the last person anyone would listen to because i dont subscribe to "ravagers are really just villagers" theory

yes, its soley for personal reasons

[spare oasis]

.

[delicate latch]

yes

[spare oasis]

I disagree, because it dosent make sense if treated as an world wide event that happend in every village.

First we have to establish what exactly are illagers and villagers. There are 3 claims, from what I have seen. They are 2 cultures and the same species, they are 2 races and the same species or they are 2 seperate species.

They only have 1 biological diffrence (their skin color), so there are not enough diffrences to support the claim that they are 2 diffrent species.

In vanilia MC we can see diffrent villager cultures and in MCD we can also see diffrent illager cultures. So they cant be 2 seperate cultures.

The only option left is that they are 2 seperate races, which makes sense considering their small biological diffrence and further seperation into multiple cultures.

Now we can come to the claim of thiss thread and why I disagree with it if seen as a worldwide event.

Its impossible that every single settelment populated by the villagers in the ow has the exact same historical event at some point in their histories, considering the advancements that have been reached by the civilsations of the ow. It also dosent make sense that every village had the same demographics, considering the demographics irl rn and throughout history.

Yes there might have been villages with mixed populations of illagers and villagers, which at some point in time casted out their illager population for diffrent reasons. But there is no way that it would have been in all the villages in the ow. There were definetly already homogenous settelments populated with only villagers or only illagers. And there probaly still are villages with mixed populations, like we see in MCL. And there already were probaly cultures of the illagers and villagers that dont fit the idea of all illagers being outcasts. Like the illagers in gale or the lagers in the MCD junglr temple and ocean monument.

[delicate latch]

well i mean

i didnt exactly say it was a "worldwide event"

i mean more as in whatever villagers were getting booted just at some point decided to band together because saftey in numbers

i still personally treat villager booting like it still is going on to some extent

and then the group one day decided that they really were gonna commit genocide

billy bob sat up in bed one day and said "wouldnt it be really funny if i convinced my comrades to commit genocide on villagers?"

and then he said "wouldnt it be even more halairous if i convinced the next generation to also participate in genocide, and then they convinced the next generation to also particpate in genocide, and then the next, and the next, and just for as long as we stay on this earth?"

and then he decided yes, that would be the most epic of pranks

but yea, my opinion is kinda dumb and i also have not played mcd

i know next to nothing about mcd

i only care about chef vindicators because i think theyre extremely funny

[heavy lotus]

are you saying you wouldn't want to harm someone that hurt you even though they were on the same team as you?

[heavy lotus]

skin color in no way differentiates species

because last time I checked, that's just called races

[delicate latch]

They actually don't shoot back

[heavy lotus]

wdym

yes they do

unless you hit them first

[delicate latch]

They just hit each other trying to kill you

[heavy lotus]

basically hostile mobs go after the last mob that attacked them

[fossil river]

eeeehehhe

[heavy lotus]

but if no mob as attacked them, they go after the nearest player

or sometimes the nearest iron golem or villager, depending on the mob

[fossil river]

yar

[heavy lotus]

but also i don't see why that's a problem

[spare oasis]

Bro, you made the missunderstanding for the 2nd time

[spare oasis]

.

[spare oasis]

.

Just fricking realised that I forgot to writte "not"

[delicate latch]

Yea was about to point that pit

Out

[heavy lotus]

oh XD

[nova garnet]

h

This was literally confirmed by mc legends lmao

So the way I see it rn is:

• A bunch of villagers (majority happen to be illagers) do some bad stuff and get cast out from their villagers

• Word spreads and a lot of Illagers unfairly get a bad rep

• Some villagers become rascist and kick out illagers at random, leading to the majority of villages being villager dominated

• Illagers team up to do a little trolling as revenge

[fossil river]

A little trolling

[heavy lotus]

that would make sense, and also would allow for the possibility of some villages still having illagers

[spare oasis]

It wasnt

[spare oasis]

Word spread across an entire planet set in basicaly the late medival era ?

[spare oasis]

And every single village is suposed to accept those rumors as the truth and act the same way ?

[spare oasis]

Rotai heavily implies that raiding is a cultural thing and we know that they have conflict with eachother too. Which is completly normal for tribal societies

[spare oasis]

Every single village, no matter its geography, had in the past the same or a very similiar demography ?

[spare oasis]

I argue that thiss legend is from a land in the ow that ee havent seen yet, because thiss clearly lager centric legend (which in an trailer was read to an villager child) depicts villagers and illagers as allies and arguably even as friends/brothers. Implying that villagers and illagers live toghter or have way better relations, in the land where the legends orignates from

[nova garnet]

I just said the majority of them

[nova garnet]

Yes, but it might've understandably taken a while

[nova garnet]

The Illagers might've just been trolling for so long that it became ingrained into their culture

[nova garnet]

Also I never claimed this, just that villages on average were less homogeneous than they are today

[spare oasis]

Ok, explain to me then. How is word suposed to spread from 1 continent to another continent across an ocean the size of the atlantic for example without the invention special ships capabel of traveling through such oceans ?

[spare oasis]

I have no problem with thiss idea then

And I maybe agree, but I am not sure

[nova garnet]

Well shipwrecks exist

[spare oasis]

Those ships are definetly not ships capabel of traveling through oceans like the atlantic irl

Wait, I get you some pictures and the name of thiss type of ship, brb

[spare oasis]

Nvm, those ships could be capabel of traveling through oceans (I remembered such to be bigger then those in MC for some reason lol)

[nova garnet]

Lmao

[spare oasis]

Yeah, I just looked up some more information

The ships used at the begining of the colonisation of the americas were small

Wait

Are the shipswrecks we see in vanilia MC multi masted ?

@nova garnet

[nova garnet]

Idk

I think so

Ye they are

[spare oasis]

Litterly wanted to say the same thing

Lol

They also dont look like they were made for shallow water

I guess the people in MC had or still have ships of traveling across the ocean

[spare oasis]

Well, in that case I have no problem with the theory, as long it dosent claim thiss:

I only disagree with the way you classify illagers and villagers

And the revenge part

[spare oasis]

I dont think so

Think about it, it was 1st established in the lore that illagers raid, later it was established that they live in tribes and also have conflict with eachother

Raiding was very very common in tribal societies across the world irl. So it would make sense that they later stated the illagers to live in tribes, so they can explain can indirectly give an explanation ti why they raid

[nova garnet]

Maybe

I still think that happened after they got banished tho

[heavy lotus]

not what they were implying

they were implying that some groups outcasted them

[heavy lotus]

same, otherwise why would they be helping the player in legends

[spare oasis]

-legend momment
-they are litterly all attacked by an far more powerfull enemy that seeks to destroy them and to conquer their home

[heavy lotus]

illagers could very much easily beat piglins, they have all types of attack types

not to mention how many different types of magic they can use

[spare oasis]

No lol

The piglins are technologicaly far more advanced then the illagers

Only the isolationist illagers of gale come somewhat close to the piglins advancement in terms of machinery

[heavy lotus]

yeah, technologically. doesn't mean that illagers are incapable of beating them

[spare oasis]

I dont care how many totems of undieing they might an constant artlery barrage is still going to kill them

Also, there is thiss (spoiler warning):

[spare oasis]

Not in MCL

[heavy lotus]

wdym

also what does illagers living with villagers have to do with illagers supposedly being too weak to fight off the Piglins themselves

also i don't think you need to spoiler mark images in here

[fossil river]

Wherrr

[heavy lotus]

hey, Nyoea

[spare oasis]

It dosent, I just showed that illagers and villagers already existed in MCL

[heavy lotus]

yeah i know?

[spare oasis]

And I just discovered the scene that explains the begining of the illagers

[heavy lotus]

oh- wdym?

[spare oasis]

Do you want me to tell it ?

[heavy lotus]

no, i don't want you to provide information that is relevant to the theory

yes, of course i do, seal XD

[fossil river]

Ok i found it now

[spare oasis]

Its a spoiler, thats why I asked

[heavy lotus]

like i said, i see no reason to give spoiler warnings in this thread

if anyone sees something they don't wanna see here, that's on them for not reading the tags, considering at this point, everything we know so far is a spoiler

however, once the game releases, i think spoiler warnings should be required in here

for obvious reasons

[fossil river]

the game is more predictable than what happens when you take a step forward

||spoiler: you move||

[heavy lotus]

true, one time i took a step forward and i moved backwards

seal?

[fossil river]

Oh well time to scavenge the yt video in hopes of something useful

[spare oasis]

According to MCL a part of the grey villagers came to the hosts with a broken mace from the piglins. Asking to repair it, so they could fight too. Reluqtantly the hosts acceptee their request and gave the grey villagers vindicator clothes. In the hosts dimension they then tryed to craft a weapon, until they managed to craft an axe. The axe was given to the now warriors, which they accepted. One of the warriors took the axe and raised it up. The remaining warriors then changed the position of their hands from the villager hand position to the illager hand position.

Later foresight informs that some of the "villagers" took up arms, seeing the success of your campaigns. Knowledge then informs you that they can found in the villages protecting the village

[spare oasis]

We shouldnt thiss take as to 100% true tho. Considering MCL being a legend and an armor description in MCD mentioning the existance of "ancient illagers"

[errant relic]

i mean, they are technically ancient illagers too

[heavy lotus]

so some villagers are also attacking as well?

[spare oasis]

Only those with grey skin

But not all

[errant relic]

yeah there is some grey villagers who dont fight

[spare oasis]

We know that thiss isnt to 100% true, because the legend says that thiss lead to the 1st axe being crafted by the hosts

Which dosent make sense

Because how did they cut wood then ?

And seriously, 3 god like beings have to invent an axe for the illagers to be abel to have axes ?

[errant relic]

the part of the axe was cleary a mythology part

if anything, is more of a symbol, of the birth of soon to be illagers

[fossil river]

Timestamp

[errant relic]

6:57:26

[fossil river]

O cool

[nova garnet]

Just thought of something

[heavy lotus]

what

[nova garnet]

What if part of why the Illagers were banished was literally just because they fought for you in mcl

[heavy lotus]

that would be dumb

ngl

[nova garnet]

Ye it was just a random thought

[heavy lotus]

oh

[spare oasis]

What if they werenr banished but voluntarly left villager society, seeing them as cowards

But idk, we have to look further into thiss

[errant relic]

they leaving villages seems to be the case presented in MCL

[fossil river]

It kinda looks like illagers were developed during the war tbh

[errant relic]

a Warrior appears to be mad at villagers

since they see as if they did all the work, while villagers did nothing

they dont believe the mostly pacifist rules of villager society anymore

[fossil river]

Feel like it also strengthens the peaceful ow narrative too

Pretty easy to be a pacifist when war is not real

[spare oasis]

But we know that war is real

[fossil river]

In their time

[spare oasis]

Foxes eating chickens, ocelots eating chickens, wolves eating sheep, zombies attacking villagers and etc

War is not an societal construct, war is nature

[fossil river]

War is societal lol

Some cultures are totaly ok with nature but would say no to violence

And wouldn't view hunting as violent

[spare oasis]

They are ok with that what they view as nature

[fossil river]

And in some cases what they see as nature they wouldnt call war

[spare oasis]

Ants disagree, chimps disagree and etc

[fossil river]

Not war to us lol

And thats if they do go to war

and how we would define it as war

[spare oasis]

No, the conflicts of for example ants and chimps have been refered as wars

[fossil river]

the ow wasnt like Eden or anything lol, but it is described as peaceful

[spare oasis]

Which is impossible

[fossil river]

exactly

impossible or improbable

[spare oasis]

Unless the hosts activly interfered in the ow and enforced peace

[spare oasis]

Every organism wants to survive (unless external factors affect it) and survival requiers ressources. But ressources are limited, which leads to competition. And competition leads to war

Thiss is nature

But there are those who defy nature. By rejecting its violance like pacifsts, rejecting to consume a ressource like vegans/vegetarians, by protecting the enviroment and not exploiting it like enviromentalists and etc

[delicate latch]

i

hold on wait

are you saying the "rejecting to consume plants" do you just mean a random hyptohteical creature or are you referring to villagers

just want to clarify before i start talking

also for the record i imagine villagers are extremely uptight and superstitous, and if only one village kicked out its v/illagers and they started attacking other villages theres a chance they just started kicking out thier v/illagers as well because of the reputation theyre racking up from people who arent even related to them
it wouldnt be immidate by far but imagine this keeps happenig and its always the same kind of people killing your parents, cant imagine youd trust anyone like them
you know, a few bad apples ruined the bunch, or an entire speicies of tree

[spare oasis]

Rejecting to consume ressources*

[delicate latch]

ok so that had nothing to do with eating plants nessacarily

[spare oasis]

Ah yes, vegans dont eat plants

[delicate latch]

also that parapraph on the v/illager thing was mostly hypotechtical

i personally think it makes sense that illagers and villagers were the same at some point in history, but thats just my personal theory

a game theor-

[spare oasis]

Ofc, illagers probaly in some diffrent geographic region evolved to have grey skin

[delicate latch]

i dont know when i just personally go "when illager become evil they decided to look more like zombies to avoid being eaten.. as often"

[vagrant sentinel]

I think it’s pretty safe to assume they are the same species

(unless someone has a reservation over that)

[delicate latch]

i mean more as in they used to be the same thing, like there wasnt a difference until some villagers woke up and chose violence

[stone moth]

What if the Illager society as we know them was created because of the war?
The Illagers were already the strange people of the village they liked to experiment and because of that their skin turned grey over time. Then the war happened. The Illagers tried to defend their land and helped the player to defeat the Piglins. But the villagers did nothing. After the Piglins were defeated the Illagers knew that there were other societies which are capable of producing much more advanced weapons. They tried to convince the villagers to develop technologies to prepare them for whatever is coming. But the Villagers said no. After that some Illagers began to separate from the villages. They saw the villagers as weak beings with no chance of survival in a world with high advanced civilizations. For their research some Illagers decided to capture Iron golems and Villagers. This caused the villagers to ban the remaining grey Illagers who where still in the villages. With no place to go they joined the Illagers and brought their hate with them. They began to raid villages to take what they need and test their weapons. Over time they began to expand their influence by building the mansions and outposts. by that time we are probably in the Base game time so this next part is probably controversial. The Illagergroup we see now in the Base game is the first Illager State/Empire. But I assume this Empire is not realy a unified. My theorie The Meansons are like headquarters of separate sections but they are shearing one goal and therefor seeing their self as one Empire like the Holy Roman Empire in rl. Now after the Base game the sperated states began to rival and the Union collapsed. And some time after that MCD takes place.

I know the part with the first Illager Union/State/Empire is a bit controversial. But in the Base game there seems to be one union so I decided to stik with that. But I know that there are different tribes in MCD. I hope I could explain how this happened with the collapse of the Union and the tribes going their own ways. In my opinion it makes sense. Let me know your thoughts.

[delicate latch]

"Hey, what if we made super cool weapons to defend ourselves with?"
"Nah I'm good."
"You are stupid, I hate you, and I'm going to kill you"

[heavy lotus]

they don't capture villagers

[delicate latch]

didnt they in mcd though

acutally yes they did, they captured them to go mine redstone if i remember correctly

[spare oasis]

Yes, the villagers of the MCD continent were enslaved by an illager empire ruled by an small illager with an talking very powerfull orb from the end that was basicaly controling him

[spare oasis]

And no, that empire didnt last long

[delicate latch]

They still did ince

[spare oasis]

Not under normal circumstances and under the rule of somebody who directly was casted out of an village and who was under the control of an orb related to the void

Context:
-the void is a place between dimensions
-the void in MCD and MCL seem to be like an corruption that corrupt creatures, the enviroment and dimensions itself

[delicate latch]

Despite the usual circumstances they still technically did
But yea fair enough

Unusual*
I hate typint

:(

[stone moth]

I haven't said captured I only mentioned the raids

[spare oasis]

Which they probaly do also against other illager tribes

[stone moth]

probably

[spare oasis]

Just less frequently because of other illagers being an harder target then a villager

[stone moth]

I agree

[delicate latch]

Attacking Jerry's tribe because he ate the last slice of pizza that we agreed was for me

[timber wyvern]

Minecraft Legends confirmed that

[heavy lotus]

oh- i didn't know that, thanks for letting me know

[heavy lotus]

"For their research some Illagers decided to capture Iron golems and Villagers."

you said that in the message i was replying to

[stone moth]

Yes we see it in MCD and the golems we see also in the base game

[heavy lotus]

what

ok hold on- first you denied mentioning that you said that illagers capture villagers, and now you're acting like you didn't- I'm confused

[stone moth]

yes I reread what I said I somehow forgot it when you first mentioned it sorry about that

[heavy lotus]

Alright, Legends is out now, so from this point forward, all mentions of things in legends in this thread can still be said, but must be put in spoilers now

so that people who are already here and who still wanna play it blind can still do so, without needing to leave this post

[spare oasis]

Yk that until MCL there was 0 evidence for that, right ?

[wary seal]

True

[heavy lotus]

leave the thread

unless you're actually interested in helping to discuss this theory

[wary seal]

Srry

Was in a bad mood yesterday

[heavy lotus]

wait what time is it for you

[wary seal]

5:07?

PM

[heavy lotus]

wdym by "yesterday" then

xd

[wary seal]

I wrote that message yesterday

[delicate latch]

what even happened

[iron sage]

Before, there never used to be a species called illagers. There only were ancient builders and villagers as humans. Villagers were people who developed a settled, peaceful mode of life while the illagers were a secret cult who used to experiment with things. The villagers soon found out about the cult and the two had a disagreement. Finally, the villagers said they could continue whatever they were doing if they didn't do it in the village. So, the illagers left. To experiment with dangerous stuff like life and death.
They used lapis to turn villagers into vindicators, villagers into ravages and all the dead souls will be preserved in soul sand and revived as vexes.
The exiled villagers usually join them but those who want to still live like villagers, become wandering traders!?

[spare oasis]

No evidence

[heavy lotus]

like seal said, no evidence

can you please provide some if you have any

[iron sage]

Which evidence? For the illagers and villagers enemy thing or the experiments like vindicators, and stuff?
For the zombies, I think they're natural mobs. Not experiments but in the end, no one has the definite answer

[heavy lotus]

yes... but that's why people theorize

nobody theorizes on things that are already confirmed

but theories still take things from the game

[spare oasis]

Yes, there is a definitiv answer. Necromancy, which can be seen in MCD and arguably in vanilia MC. There is also evidence implying the existance of natural necromancy like the wither skeletons SSVs, skeletons in the SSVs, wraiths in the SSVs, the properties of the moon and etc

[spare oasis]

The illager and villagers do have conficts, but I wouldnt call them enemies considering that its normal for tribal societies like that of the illagers to do raids (its confirmed that most live in tribes)

[spare oasis]

Yes, there is no evidence for the illagers having done experiments, atleast you havent provided any

[spare oasis]

To evocate by definition is the summoning of spirits

Meaning that evokers summon and dont create vexes and those jaws

[spare oasis]

No evidence and lack of logic

[iron sage]

@spare oasis #3851 the illagers had blue and dark blue wool filled in one of the rooms. They have stuff like dungeons and iron doors with levers and cauldrons in those rooms as well. And from where did the evokers get the totem of undying?

@spare oasis btw yes, illagers are not enemies. It's commen sense tho. If you sneak inside someone's home, they'll definitely be pissed. The illagers can't tell us to get out that why they make players run away by injuring the player. But I still don't get why they'd hurt the villagers though

@spare oasis the ones that live in tribes are known as 'pillagers' they guard their out post, patrolling the place of any mobs or players.

[spare oasis]

No, thery are not

The canon novel "Rise of the Arch Illager" states clearly that illagers live in tribes. The only cases were they dont live in tribes is in the illager empire in MCD and Rotai and the possible city state of gale in MCD

[spare oasis]

Again, its completly normal for a tribal society to raid other societies. Espacialy if the targeted society is a semi pacifist one with weak rather defences. But Rotai states that conflict between illagers can also happen, which makes sense (because other illager tribes are an harder target then villages, so they would prefer attacks on villages)

[spare oasis]

-What have the wool rooms to do with magic ? Its just a ressource storage
-Wow, they have prisons with toilets. What now ?
-Ofc they managed to develop and invent the totems of undying in the past, but there is no evidence that thiss has been done in the villages were they suposedly were outcasted

[left nimbus]

that guy's still theorizing?

[tulip frost]

No
In the description of his latest video he said he has decided to quit YouTube because he doesn't enjoy making videos anymore and he doesn't like minecraft's update direction

I was interested to see what he had to say about the Warden but oh well

[left nimbus]

Mm

[last tangle]

I thought you were racist for a moment 💀

[spare oasis]

What ? why ?

[iron sage]

Any opinions on how the totems were created? If naturally, then players would be able to get their hands on the totems from some other source rather than illagers. How do you think the illagers got their hands on something players couldn't? The totem is obviously magical. If it wasn't then how would players be saved right before they die

[iron sage]

There are cauldrons outside the prison rooms as well. And these "toilets" outside the prisons are not placed in places where there is privacy. So they're obviously meant for something. These multipurpose "toilets" are also known as cauldrons. Why would the illagers need cauldrons?

[iron sage]

Resource storage for what? That's the question I'm asking. They definitely don't work in a fabric dying factory to just store wool, cauldrons and all

[heavy lotus]

they could

[spare oasis]

I was only aware of cauldrons being inside the prison rooms, there being cauldrons outside is news to me

[spare oasis]

Could you show a picture of it ?

[spare oasis]

Yes, its obviously magical and an invention that humankind did not havr access to. But where is the evidence that it was created when the illagers suposedly were inhabitans of the villages ?

[spare oasis]

So they can store wool, which is used then to make things that make for example traveling through the ancient cities easier:

[iron sage]

The totem is never available from any other source other than illagers, or more specifically, Evokers so they must have something to do with them right?

[iron sage]

I think it has been removed as updates passed but I swear I've seen the room with 2 iron double doors with a lever and Cobblestone walls with a few cauldrons kept together outside it

Also, I wonder what's up with them trapping Allays in the dungeons at the mansions or in wooden prisons at the pillager outposts

[spare oasis]

They probaly invented it, but thats it

And I ask again, where is the evidence for the illagers already did such magical practices during the theoretical time when they lived in the villages

[heavy lotus]

wdym by theoretical time

I agree with everything else you said, but I'm confused about that part

[spare oasis]

The only evidence for villager and illagers having lived togheter is litterly the legend MCL, which is not true to 100%

So I said theoretical, because the idea remains a theory

[heavy lotus]

true