The skin system is a mess. Fix it before is to late.

[hot stone]

Apologies, but there's no better way to put this: the skin system is deeply flawed and a mess. In my 30 years of gaming experience, this is one of the worst systems I’ve encountered, this is not coming even close to the 250 dollars league of legends Jynx skin scam. As a landowner myself (T4 and T2), I find this implementation incredibly frustrating. How can you expect an average gamer to be happy about having to purchase 18 copies of the EXACT SAME SKIN just to apply it across all armor variations in the gauntlet? This approach Will be HATED by regular gamers, appealing only to niche crypto enthusiasts/freaks.

Simple Solution:
Introduce one skin for all armor sets. This needs to happen quickly before more players engage with the current system and grow frustrated.

Complex Solution:
Create skins tailored for the same Illuvial but with different variants—adding effects, finer details, etc. Maximun five (one for each armor tier). The higher the tier, the more intricate the design. This way, blueprints retain their value, and players can still hunt for high-tier armor set blueprints, satisfying both collectors and regular gamers.

Please council, do something about this.....

[burnt kernel]

I agree, the current system is a bad “user experience”, and its unnecessarily complicated. Tried to say the same thing a few months ago, here…

#1300053430542274571 message

[hot stone]

Yeah. I upvoted your post back then

[past sphinx]

Totally agree... have had these thoughts myself. You play fortnite or Cod u go get the skin you want and boom you're done. Should be the same here too... and eventually I hope there are collab/promo skins with cool branded partners.

[nova onyx]

Why now?

This system has been known for over a year?
We've been making blueprints for it in Zero for half a year (and it was known long before that from Alpha)... and suddenly today it's a problem?

Oh yeah, maybe you should wake up before active players create dozens to hundreds of blueprints...

And their minting with known conditions has already begun.

[past sphinx]

Why not now? I'm deep in Zero and I think the skin set up is terrible...

[nova onyx]

Why only now? If the system seemed complicated to you, the proposal should have come six months ago, not today, when about 100K blueprints have been created.

[past sphinx]

I just don't think it's a system that will be fun for players
but whatever... let it roll
They are trying to pivot and learn from the initial ideas... I'm sure this will evolve too when people experience it

the majority of Illuvium game mechanics were set up with crypto/investors in mind... thinking that if they make such and such rare that people will chase it and tons will come. But it has proven that only a few people are die hards and grind but most people won't. So they are simplifying and shifting towards fun/engaging gameplay... this skin set up is a relic from that old mindset imo and will change

[nova onyx]

Really?
As automatic drone run?

As planed stats nerf

It seems to me that after creating a system (for 60M USD), which is fun and played by a lot of players, now they are just deciding what to cancel and delete...

Which discourages not only investors, but also players.

Instead of a unique game, there will be an awkward simplified copy of Pokémon that will not entertain either players or investors...

Just follow the statistics of player activity in OW or on the market...

By the way, probably the last functional system without "simplifying interventions" is Beyond... Where do you collect as many collections as possible...

Why shouldn't players enjoy collecting skins? If a nice collection app like in Beyond would be made, players will be happy to try to collect the entire collection and track their progress... just like it is not only in Beyond, but also in other games... - And most importantly - special skins (like Gshock) will be rarer and more valuable - because they will be harder to find. And this will increase interest in similar events.

[past sphinx]

My main issue with skins as it is now is there is nothing unique about them… just color variations. But yes… make some cool partner skins and then you make it more interesting.

Beyond is different in that there are leaderboard rewards for filling your album and bonding… there is purpose.

[nova onyx]

I have 700 skins in World of Tanks for example... Do nothing, only cost money or ingame currency or as season reward. And have it, because want it...
Simmilar 100 players in my clan...
And simmilar 100M players which play World of tanks.

I don't know many games where skin has any meaning... skin is simply for joy and fun... (and players want to have skins). There are a lot of "money extractors" talking here, but they barely think about the players.
Then it's no wonder that ILV is more like a Ponzi or Titanic... and not an expanding and developing game, where x players are added every day.

Yes, I would see if the skins were more different... Maybe use a part of the illuvial texture on the armor / drone and the like...

But that means preserving the system and having a plan for its development. And that ... ILV has ???
Not deleting everything again a few days after launch after we have been "scanning skins in lands" for half a year.

[hot stone]

Why now? What do you mean? This issue has been raised multiple times in the past, as seen here: https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1288526387736739851 and #1300053430542274571 message. If you haven't seen these posts, then that's a different matter entirely.

[hot stone]

let’s be honest—there’s nothing truly unique about this skin system. It’s just the same copy-paste armor across 18 different variations, with the only real difference being the name of the armor. In other words, you need to pay 18 times for the same armor if you want to see it in all guanlets games, the SAME armor with the SAME colour.

[nova onyx]

Yes, there were suggestions, but they never made it through IIP or into a serious proposal for implementation - there was no interest in it.

And again, why open the same thread for the tenth time... so continue with the original suggestion if it is the same/similar.
Especially when the threads are started by the same person?

@hot stone APP — dnes v 10:10
nothing prevents you from improving the skins as soon as the base grows...
What if you cancel 20 skins and remake them into 1 skin... so what? Logically you raise the price 20x (to make the economy work?). Who has 250M of hydro/crystal/carbon on Land...

Etc, etc...

It is good to take the entire economy into account in the proposal, not just say... "you made 6000 skins. Never mind, they are similar, so delete 5700 of them and leave 300..."
Think about it and write the impacts of the change on the economy, game experience, production, rarity, etc...

And as written above... the proposal did not meet with a response 2 times... yet you start a new exactly the same topic without further elaboration 😦

It is the same as the topic "let's close OW and make autoruns"... the topic is always started by the same people, practically every time (if anyone still finds it worth voting there) the vote is extremely negative, yet every 3-4 days a "new topic" close OW and make autoruns is created.

I guess is needed to vote until others are disgusted and finally the proposal "Will it pass" because there will be 3 people for it, and no one against will even bother to respond?

[hot stone]

I’m not sure if you’re debating this in good faith. First, you claimed this topic hasn’t been addressed before, which is untrue—I just provided two random examples of posts on the subject. Second, you stated that the skin system is unique, which is also inaccurate, as it simply copy-pastes the same skin 18 times for each Illuvial.

Just because people weren’t interested in this issue before doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be interested now. I don’t see any problem with creating a new post to gauge current opinions.

[nova onyx]

Sorry, it reminds me more of a destruction system: We will vote until everyone gets tired of it and the result I want comes out.

Yes, maybe I expressed myself badly (EN isnt my native), there has never been a serious proposal with a significant response to cancel skins... not even at a time when it still made sense to change and "delete", as you write. Now people have been making prints for months and are looking forward to their skins, which they are minting (I am currently minting 20 skins)... The proposal to cancel skins is bad.

It would be much better to develop the concept... But we are back to the fact that there is no current roadmap of plans for 2025, as far as I know. Without that, it is difficult to discuss and propose how to move forward...

[zenith hazel]

Set up with milking money from people you mean. It was never about catering to any group.

[hard palm]

How would you handle the migration for current players which already have some subset of suit skins.

Say I have Xenolink Rhamphyre and Shell Rhamphyre but not the other 16, how much Rhamphyre do I get?

[burnt kernel]

The longer the system remains as it is now, the harder it will get to ever change it. I doubt many people will have multiple subset of same suit skins just yet. (takes time to mint the BP and would need to "burn" more than 3xRhamphyres). But it's defiantly the hardest problem if it where to be changes at some point.

Maybe people are fine with how it works now... but I honestly think its bad, and people will eventually realise it when they experience it themself, and we eventually onboard a lot more new players. Also as a landholder I would actually preferer a system with less complexity, and I am sure we would be able to sell more skins with the less complex model.

But it's true, it's been voiced a few times in the past now, without getting much attention. (definitely not enough to get into IIP). so either community thinks it's all good, or It hasn't had much attention because it was not widely understood how it currently works for the "normal users" that just wants to buy a skin, and hasn't paid much attention to IZ.

[nova onyx]

I have no problem with that quantity. As I wrote above, I have more than 700 skins for my tanks in WOT, where I have various historical, modern, compatible with only one type of tank, with a specific nation (e.g. German camouflage) and the like... and I don't know that players here would have a problem with that... On the contrary, they buy and buy skins and change them very often.
Something has been created here that (hopefully) works and can develop the game. Once there are players and money for development other than bug fixing, the concept of skins can be expanded and refined a little better - for example, using not only 3 colors, but directly interesting parts of the textures of the given Illuvials that are typical for them.

[lyric dragon]

there should only be 1 rhamphyre set. If you have variants of it then just convert them all to the base type.

this skin system is a complete mess... It should be 1 skin per illuvial. And the armour design adjusts to whatever you have equipped.

[hard palm]

But the Xenolink is 40 times as rare as the Shell
Unfair to "convert 'em all"

[lyric dragon]

with everything that has happened I think we're way past the fairness point. Just make the systems good...

[hard palm]

I am unleashed!

[lyric dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/you-got-this-good-job-go-go-for-it-gif-14646381

[nova onyx]

You just You're deleting things, not changing anything, and not taking into account rarity, economic balance of the land, energy devoted to the player... etc.

OK, take 300 Dark Holo Rhamphyra and convert it to 6x0 Atlas... this is your suggestion, only they're skins and not specific Illuvials.

I really like to chance my atlas for your Rhamphyre 🙂

205 of Illuvialls with stats, affinity, tier, stage... this is too complicate... All we can have atlas and lets play!

[plucky hearth]

I would much prefer to scrap the current skin system completely.

I have never liked the setup, it's such an overly complex way of not only obtaining them, but creating and equipping them etc.

Skins should be sold and offered by the DAO in loot crates, lucky spins etc (proven model), Land owners can still get 5% of the revenue there as they could be sold in $Fuel.
Strip back the complexity and go with what is proven successful time and again. It's what people know and want.

If I pull a skin from a crate, it should be compatible with any suit, requiring a different skin for every single variation of suit is madness.

[zenith arch]

Yes pls

[nova onyx]

Why? World of tanks, CS (and another games) have skins compatility with specific tank, weapon, suit... ...

[lyric dragon]

you can keep the skins specific to each drone, but please just have one skin for the ranger. Let's not over complicate things as always...

[zenith arch]

Armor specific skins probably have their place, but would work better as a raid reward or other immensely hard to achieve content. Otherwise I agree with Alexa and Fillow

[lyric dragon]

I would rather get actual exclusive gear from raids rather than skins. That doesn't feel rewarding at all.

[nova onyx]

Yes, we can have 1 atlas, 1 armor, 1 crypton and 1 skin... no skilly, no affinity ... can delete all of the rest of game... it is too complicate.

[zenith arch]

Can do both, depends on the quality of the skin. As I'm personally not a big fan of the current ones we have.

[plucky hearth]

If they were offered in loot crates, a lot more effort can be put into a set of unique designs to be offered in a specific crate, legendary/mythic versions etc.
Once equipped it is your default skin, whatever suit you have on under it only effects stats, not not visual. Unless you have no skin equipped then you get base suit design.

[nova onyx]

PS: I would add Holo and Dark holo skin variants 🙂

Can by mint separatelly... or by fusion...
10x blueprint = 1x Holo blueprint
10x Holo blueprint = 1x Dark holo blueprint

And Holo blueprint must be forge with 3x Holo Illuvial
And DarkHolo blueprint must be forge with 3x DarkHolo Illuviall

What about this?

[zenith arch]

Yep that can work too. I know you don't like that topic but there can even be skins you buy with substance! (Burning tech 😀)

[plucky hearth]

Absolutely. Many games offer such options.

[lyric dragon]

I think we already spent enough time with designing skins. Let's focus on making good gameplay for now.

[hot stone]

The purpose of this post is to discuss how we can address this situation before it’s too late. This is well beyond my pay grade, but honestly, almost any approach would be better than the current model—even something like the lootboxes/crates idea from Alexa. The key is finding a solution that doesn’t completely kill landholders in the process.

[plucky hearth]

Selling them in $Feul only solves that no?

[hard palm]

It's already "too late" since megacity release for a shift, therefore the only things worth discussing are end state and suitable path towards said end state, assuming you don't like current state

[fringe hill]

i don't think it's too late to change the direction rough and hard.
The skins system got created when there was a vision of multiple interconnected games, starting out with Ascendant Arena and OW being a big part of the gameplay loop.
In times where it is discussed to shutdown OW and no public info on a release date of that MMO-Lite mode i guess we can expect to not sell many skins to ow. Eeven if...1x T1 suit will be enough for now, since the suit doesn't really make a difference on the hunt.
Gauntlet is the wrong mode to show off a ranger skin, you need a ton of skins unlike in ascendant where you needed 1 or 2. Also you sometimes barely see the ranger at all not even to mention clearly see the skin in Arena which makes me doubt many going to pay high prices for skins.
Also:

• Floor price of universal usable skins out of beyond is arround $12
• Floor price of Tier5 stage3 is arround $12

So the 1x t5 skin crafted with blueprints has more than 3x of the price and you need 15 of those to have (almost)the same function. (T0 suits not existing for creation with BP)

Even if we not consider the Ranger skins Illuvium sells.
3x$12x15=540$(+profit margins + fuelcost to mint/craft + x amount of space value in Zero) to be sure to always have that skin shown in gauntlet is just too pricey for most people.
Sure, it's the floorprices right now and maybe they get a lot cheaper when drone runs are released because whales dumping their dupes, but that's just speculation.
I guess we shall see soon when it starts with skin creation, but besides a couple buys here and there because people want to get 1 for their OW account and are fan of that illuvial we just see uninformed buys. Everyone else will go for the universal usable skins.

It will feel bad for all those already having a considerable collection (including me), but a drastic change now will still have a positive endresult for all those landwoners i feel.

[fringe hill]

Now if you think it's too late already, i guess sprinkle in an additional super rare suit Blueprint which is usable for all suitlines could be somewhat of a potential solution to safe the set1 Skins of zero. (I have no clue how much dev work that would be tho 😄 )
And then bring a new system live with set2.

[hard palm]

To clarify, I don't think it's too late to change, but it is too late to not think about migration from existing system to a new one

[fringe hill]

yea that would be ideal case 🙂

[nova onyx]

Yes, every week someone open thread to end OW... and voting? 2 : 21

So yes, there's still an awkward proposal being thrown around that most people don't want...

Instead of spreading the certainty among players that OW would be there, some daily missions or battle passes were made...
And players could play... instead of discussing every day why it's stupid to close OW.

[fringe hill]

just to add to the fact that gauntlet won't be a big selling point for ranger suit skins.
That's my view and turtle up is not an uncommon practice in gauntlet.

[hard palm]

Let's be honest, even though I agree the ratio is dire
21 is not much
2 is not much
What portion of the "active community" is that?

[nova onyx]

Multiplayer OW will be more popular for skins... 😉

Gauntlet isnt good to skin I think... there is a small degree of personification and "identification with the character" We see it... very small quantity of players play HOLO / DARK HOLO in Gaunlet...

And Leviathan mode, where would there be any interest in it?
It's still full of speculation if it will even happen. Or will the stats be nerfed by 90%. Or will it be completely canceled because it's P2Win... Just a ton of uncertainty again with everything being negative for existing players who spent time building their super-team. Which they probably won't even have anywhere to use and play in the end.

[nova onyx]

Max 100 players play OW daily now...
23 is 23% of "active community" now :))) And no all are on Discord and ready this "tons of topics"

[fringe hill]

i wouldn't say every week there's a thread opened to end ow.
it's like total of 2 or 3 if i remember right and the rest is people going off topic here and there and the thematic gets discussed.

Yes uncertainty is for sure not helpful to increase revenue.
I actually hope that IMC is going to do a big newsletter in January with a detailed outlook of 2025 developements and expectations.
Wanted to hit ricky and garf up for that matter, they just don't know yet 😄

But that's not actually the topic right here right now 🙂

[nova onyx]

3 months of season without any in OW... It is tragic... I write this all the time, players want missions, goals... You don't have to give away ILV or money, just give them a goal, a leaderboard, something... why they should progress in the game. Maybe just a "smiley" for the TOP 100 every week.

[hard palm]

The skin system!

[nova onyx]

Random skin as reward for TOP 100 leaderboard in OW? :)))))
Sorry. I must wrote it 😉

[burnt kernel]

that's a separate discussion, this is about the Skins 🤗 .... and to be fair, for most people it is the holiday season, so not expecting a ton of people on discord. don't think its fair to take a full community sentiment just yet, it was just posted yesterday. (yes I know it's been discussed before, but this was on the back of the blog post)

[fringe hill]

lets try to stay on topic, ser 🙂

[hard palm]

Broadly speaking I've heard three things

End State 1 (Alexa): DAO sells Set 1 Illuvial skins, leading to more earnings which pleases land holders, but undoes all their blueprint progress (ouch?)

End State 2 (Coffaro?): Migration scheme where current per suit line skin progress is a part of getting to the all-suit-line skin

End State 3 (Morgoloth): Don't change (and add Holo/Dark Holo)

[burnt kernel]

Personally I would be in favor of "end state 2"

"end state 1" is not a bad idea, just think it's worth keeping the Biodata/BP on IZ, seems like a nice way to link the games.

[nova onyx]

2. End State 2 (Coffaro?): Migration scheme where current per suit line skin progress is a part of getting to the all-suit-line skin

So Rhampy wasn't 18x ​​(for each armor), but I gradually collected 18 "upgrades" of Rhampy's skin?
So instead of Rhampy battle suit skin, Rhamphy Xenolink skin, etc etc... I would have Rhampy lvl 1 skin, Rhamphy lvl 2 skin ... etc etc...
Actually, they could keep the original names, but in fact it would be an improvement of the original skin? Which one would be compatible with all armor?

Doesn't sound bad...

But then again, it's not possible for me to alternate a new skin with each armor in Gauntlet. Which I personally find more interesting and creative...

[fringe hill]

end state 2 is OP, right?
can't find the progress post but i like it.

[hard palm]

I don't think we'll have the art-power to make 18 versions of a Rhamphy skin (sorry 🙇‍♂️ )

But the broad direction I'm liking is some progression system where getting to the end (18/18) enables you to mint it

Perhaps rewards at certain milestones (every 3 ergo Tier)

[fringe hill]

is that actually feasible?
How many research in theory would be needed on average to get all 15 armor skins?

[hard palm]

we would rebalance to a degree (already rebalanced with megacity release)

Depending on who you ask, some love making things easier (the ones who dont have X yet) and some love making it harder (the ones who do have X), curse of tuning NFT games I suppose

[past sphinx]

I do like the idea of finding the 18 parts to then create the 1 universal skin

[fringe hill]

i see.

Yea i'm on the harder side... no point in having something everyone else has aswell, especially with skins but also the same thematic with perfect stat illuvials. If everyone has all perfect, what is the point of stats at all... It's in almost all the systems i feel where it comes to flex/high end gear etc.
You as a developper buy yourself massive time aswell with content "hard to get".
Otherwhise everyone stopps playing after 2 weeks because he gets all he needs and waits for content update 😄

what about the cost to get that desired skin?
Same as now? higher? lower?

[nova onyx]

"unlocking display" Parts of skins? Leg, Leg, Hand, Hand, Head, body part 1-5, jetpack, boots... (18 parts total) ... I dont know... there is many options 🙂

Or 18 parts to fuse "final skin" Easy to programing, no need new "grafic source" etc... Much cheaper... But not so beautiful. 😉

[nova onyx]

Actual price of parts (for example Archie Xenolink) * 18 parts 🙂

[zenith hazel]

I always thought it would be simpler to have Illuvium labs sell the skins and blueprints act like shares in the blueprints 'company' giving holders a portion of the revenue set aside for each respective skin

Questionable on the accounting side but otw straightforward

If we have automated payouts for rev dis done in general thoigh this should be easier to abstract from whats been done already

[hollow portal]

How about something like this: We exchange every existing skin 1 to 1 with a new "master" skin of the same type. The only difference would be in the meta data, where an atlas xenolink skin would be replaced with a "master" atlas skin that is unlocked for the xenolink suit line.

Each master skin would have 18 unlockable slots for each suit line and as you unlock slots, the skin would become wearable for an additional suit line. But the same looks, so no artwork update is required.

Unlocks could be achieved 2 way. You can either buy another atlas suit for a different suit line from the market (and burn it, unlocking that suit line in your existing master suit). Or we could introduce unlocks with "substance", that you can get by burning all kinds of illuvium nfts. This can be achieved by having different crafting recipes, so we can use the existing mint system.

Once a master skin is fully unlocked, it would gain a differentiating look, making it more desirable. It could have a specific vfx, or a "dark mode" version that glows, or it would become holo, etc. Our art department could kill this part.

Benefits:

• we could keep the existing skin research/minting system in zero
• we could add a burning mechanism at the same time
• players with smaller budgets could still collect lots of skins by choosing to wear the same suit type and only buying one version for each
• hardcore collectors could go for a fully unlocked collection that has distinctive flex on it
• the progression system would also encourage players to burn a bunch of resources as they progress, propping up the whole game economy
• we could get rid of unwanted clown noses, unused ores, weak illuvials etc. - all could be burned for substance

[plucky hearth]

It's the best idea i've seen to improve the current system, but ultimately I don't like the current system and this doesn't excite me or make me feel like I want to spend money on it.

The beauty of loot crates is that they are exciting, whether people get the skin they want or not, at least they got a thrill chasing it. Where's the excitement/thrill from acquiring these skins? Just sounds like work to me.
I am not saying some wont enjoy it, just as they some like grinding to catch illuvials now, but so many more would love to just spend money and pull them out of a pack.
Quick, simple, exciting. I dont think we have either with the current system.

[fringe hill]

Some Like lootboxes, some don't.
I See you Like them, i do not 😄

What's also a Bad Part about lootboxes... Don't we exclude the whole Chinese Market with lootboxes?

[nova onyx]

Not only China as I know... But China is bigger 🙂

[fringe hill]

Maybe others aswell, yea.
But China has a considerable Market share and ist the leading Country in game revenue

[hollow portal]

You might be right about this, I was trying to work with what we currently have and looking out for everyone who plays the game.

Land owners were sold on 2 main thing, fuel production and blueprints. Fuel is already disappointing, if we move skins to loot boxes, it would take away the other main promise as well. It would require a complete rethink of Zero. (time and dev work we don't have)

My idea would benefit OW players (it stings less to get ores you don't need or weak illuvials if you can burn them - it gives additional value for basically everything you can farm)

Beyond players - burn your clown noses and useless T0 illuvials that clog up your inventory.

Collectors - small or big budget, everyone could get a decent skin collection.

This system would also use existing game systems - no need to change anything in Zero, we already have a burning system in the forge (used for shards) and the existing minting system could be used for suit upgrades.

I'm not saying its perfect but could be a direction to work with.

Plus, I'm sure that the right vfx or whatever visual the art team would come up for a fully unlocked suit could get you excited enough to make you want to collect them 😉

[verbal blaze]

Please, no more loot boxes. We have Beyond. Talking about drones bringing in Illuvial Loot boxes. I would like some things in this game to not be lottery/gatcha style play.

[plucky hearth]

We do have Beyond, which by "chance" just happens to be the most successful "game" we have, wonder why 😉 .
Market is telling you something, whether anyone listens, well, we will see.

[nova onyx]

Because Beynd have season, rewards, updates and promos?

Which of these have OW?

OW doesn't even have a "stupid" ranking for emoticons, skins, or have Battle pass ... I'm not talking about rewards at all.

And the news that stats will be nerfed and Leviathan as a mod will not be supported because it is pay2win and we want a free arena for all... (how much money does Arena make? And are players playing it? - wainting time for battle is 30 minutes and more)

[plucky hearth]

Take a look at "Game For Peace" Chinese version of PUBG, offers loot crates just fine.

[lyric dragon]

yeah I tend to agree. From emotes, to illuvitars, and in the future illuvials, we probably already have enough loot boxes in the ecosystem.

[lyric dragon]

you know I also like Beyond but it's not really a fair comparison to make when the other games are in the gutter. Beyond supports the entire ecosystem, but it's not its driving force, or at least it isn't supposed to be.

[nova onyx]

There are many of rules... one of it is any in lootbox can be gain ingame without lootbox... for example 🙂

[verbal blaze]

Definitely not by chance. It's successful because the DAO is paying people to play it, paying out less than what those looking to make money are putting in as a whole. I am trying hard to not use the "G" word. 😂 It is a very effective and popular way of playing, BUT not everyone likes it. We have 4 different games and the opportunity to get 4 different styles of gamers, I think we should be doing our best to do so. They won't all be equal in popularity or profit but making them all the same won't increase our profit, it will just make those who don't like that game style leave our project.

[fringe hill]

IDK if it is just that easy maybe someone who knows the laws in china can speak up here.
There might be even differences if it is an international company or a chinese company like tencent.
Looks like they retracted but are still working on new proposals.

[burnt kernel]

it's definitely an area we should be a bit careful of how to approach. It's on the radar in many EU countries as well, and I think Loot boxes qualify as gambling and may even be outright illegal in Belgium, the Netherlands and Slovakia. But I am also not an expert in these laws. 🤗

[plucky hearth]

"Any paid loot boxes whose random content possesses real-world monetary value and can be cashed out are illegal, unless offered with a gambling license (which cannot be obtained by a video game company for loot boxes in most countries)."

It defintely appears as though loot boxes are problematic when they contain assets that can be traded for real world monetary value. Which ours can/would.

Minefield. I certainly don't know enough on the subject.

[fringe hill]

That would Make even beyond as it is illegal.
Pretty sure there's a law Guy in the Team, but forgot his Name. Would be intresting to hear some words of either him/Team/council. Would also the debate about closing overworld and the Plans for lootbox openings significantly influence i feel.

[zenith sierra]

1 to 1 ratio
If you have any of the Rhamphyres, you get the simplified one

Xenolink Rhamphyre = Master Skin Rhamphyre

Shell Rhamphyre = Master Skin Rhamphyre

It's not about reducing the supply of skins/blueprints, it's about making the process more simplified where one Skin can be applied go the entire line of Armors

Atleast that's how I understood one of the pain points here

[zenith sierra]

This is resonating with many lately and needs to be shared more
@hard palm I am curious to see what "UNLEASHED" looks like 🔥

[zenith sierra]

Shared link to this in Council just now
🤞see what comes of it

[mortal fjord]

Let's tag @ruby hamlet for this.

[strange estuary]

I'm Chinese, I love Illuvium very much, ecpecially the qute and creative Illuvials, and also the Arena Guantlet. I believe this legal issue doesn't need to be considered until the game’s revenue reaches billions. The current focus should be on getting the ILV economy up and running and attracting more players. There's no need to worry too much about this right now Just personal thoughts.

[nova onyx]

No 🙂
Looboxy we have in Beyond... who want it, have it...
OW please without thit bad mechanics... Moreover, what and why to loot if Kieran wants to cancel (or significantly limit) the Leviathan mod with stats as I know them?

[hard palm]

10x fuel supply nerf inc

https://tenor.com/view/cliff-barnes-dallas-ken-kercheval-laughs-gif-21154701

[ruby hamlet]

Yes we have a "legal guy" in the team. Actually it's me. She/her thanks. We're across all the legal matters relating to the DAO and operations and our risk exposure and legal requirements are all in good order. Thanks for checking.

[fringe hill]

Thank you so much, Vic, for checking in and for clarifying that the legal matters are in good order.

If possible, I’d love to hear a bit more about how the team is navigating the specific challenges around loot boxes, especially given the various regulations mentioned earlier (e.g., in China and EU countries). It’s such a complex area, and any additional insights would be really helpful for understanding how Illuvium is approaching this.

Thanks again for your time and all the work you’re doing!

[plucky hearth]

Yes we have a "legal guy" in the team. Actually it's me. She/her thanks. We're across all the legal matters relating to the DAO and operations and our risk exposure and legal requirements are all in good order. Thanks for checking

That being the case, I would be in favour of the loot box approach every time, for most cosmetics, but especially illuvials and illuvitars 👍 .

[nova onyx]

Yes. there was small quantity of lootbox game...

[plucky hearth]

A total of 58.0% of the top games on the Google Play store contained loot boxes, 59.0% of the top iPhone games contained loot boxes and 36.0% of the top games on the Steam store contained loot boxes.

Just a small quantity.

That being said it does appear that games are adapting to Battle Passes and the like to not solely rely on loot crates, but they still make up a huge portion of in game revenue.

[nova onyx]

"Yes. there was small quantity of lootbox game..." = IRONY 🤣

PS: Your statistics also mean that 64% / 42% / 41 % of TOP games don't need loot boxes to succeed... 🙂

Its 50 : 50 average... = Lootboxes won't save this game

Now we have contained lootboxes... Complete Beyond for example dont have another mechanics... only lootbox 🙂
Zero scanner is could probably also be considered a lootbox, you pay and you have absolutely no way to influence the outcome.
In OW you see stats and have a chance before "pay by shard", you need win and you can desice: want it X dont want it. = NOT a lootbox
Arena: Not a lootbox
= We have it 50 / 50 too 🙂

Second: No DAO income from lootboxes, if it cost fuel... (as is poromissed now)

Third: Yes, I proposed Battle pass to OW and/with daily missions... Its better than lootboxes: Income for DAO, very big motivation for players... they want it and want to complete them = must actively play. = higher fuel consumption = better income for land owners... This is WIN WIN situation for all: Land owners, DAO, OW players, collectors (widely range of supply on market for smaller price)...

[plucky hearth]

Sorry, there's no irony in any of those statements. You claimed that a small quantity of games used loot boxes, that is demonstrably false, the majority of top performing games across multiple platforms employ loot boxes as a method of generating revenue.

Of course with a lot of games loot boxes dont really lend themsleves, such as Candy Crush for example.

Anyway. I have made my position clear. There's nothing more to add.

Merry Christmas everyone!! ❤️ 🎉

[rustic cargo]

i think this summed it up.
currently it is quantity over quality.
if we look at fornite, LoL, Dota2 or even OTG skins look very cool.
Ive only paid $10 on OTG and ive got so many skins like Ninja, Trump/Kamala, Santa Claus plus the battle pass skins. So much value from $10

[rustic cargo]

well said.
i have to be honest, the whole ecosystem hasnt been thought/designed well from ideas to implementation.
imo we shouldnt cling to how it was planned but rather change/revamp the ecosystem to appeal to players, which we are lacking

[rustic cargo]

China has a very strict regulation on lootbox, but then afaik we are blocking their VPN access anyway

[fringe hill]

so the DAO isn't interested in being accessible in those countries with similar or even tougher restrictions?
i'm no legal expert but i googled arround a bit, read some news articles/government statements and it really seems many countries already have or are about to regulate/totally ban lootboxes in video games.
When looking at those info and having gaming revenue in mind it doesn't sound smart to my uneducated self to go all in on lootboxes, especially if there is already an economy set up handling it in other ways.

We have Illuvitars (lootbox), Illuvials (soon lootbox)... and now we talking about making the last asset (cosmetics) also as a lootbox system?

i see it pretty much the same as chatgpt, why are we doing the opposite?

[zenith arch]

Skins would be best sold by the dao itself. Then they can also be part of lootboxes either as whole skins or fragments as part of a battle pass or other type of reward. Would be nice if the players then can sell/trade the loot boxes on the dex, not sure if that works around the legal stuff, since it's earned through gameplay.

If we keep some skins to be player generated, it might be better to move that part to OW as content rewards, legendary quests, progressing the storyline, etc so that everyone is involved rather than just the land owners.

[nova onyx]

I said it. Battle pass is much better than lootboxes... it is also popular, maintains high player activity, generates DAO revenue (+ for land owners + its funny)...

Lootbox for fuel generate 0 USD income for DAO 😉

[plucky hearth]

No idea why this is so polorising, why not just offer both 🤷‍♂️

We already have the loot box system in Beyond, adapting this for compatibility with other games shouldn't be as time consuming due to this and we know it is successful and people enjoy it and spend a lot of money.

You can keep crafting, battle passes, missions etc and also have the loot boxes operiatng along side.
Give people the choice.

I just believe right now the loot boxes are the quickest way to profit and keeping this project alive.
You may disagree, but why not offer both and let the people decide what they want. We will see exactly what people want without having to speculate on it.

i'm no legal expert but i googled arround a bit, read some news articles/government statements and it really seems many countries already have or are about to regulate/totally ban lootboxes in video games.

Same has been said since 2018, yet 1 country in the whole world has banned them.
The fact that they have been through such strong scutiny by many of the larger courts around the world, yet are still green lit to operate, sounds reassuring to me.

When looking at those info and having gaming revenue in mind it doesn't sound smart to my uneducated self to go all in on lootboxes, especially if there is already an economy set up handling it in other ways.

There's no need to go all in, like I say, offer both.

We have Illuvitars (lootbox), Illuvials (soon lootbox)... and now we talking about making the last asset (cosmetics) also as a lootbox system?

If you find something successful you capitalise on it, common sense.
You don't waste time and resources building somethig out that has proven itself inferior.

[echo gate]

China has banned loot boxes? Rare China W

[rustic cargo]

high restriction, but belgium did ban loot box

[rustic cargo]

it's kind of a grey area.
i mean pokemon pocket TCG has lootbox. CSGO, Overwatch, EA games.
miniso sells blindboxes. kinder surprise?

[echo gate]

I understand why people would want them as investors. As players, I don’t get it since it reminds me of gacha games.

[rustic cargo]

gambling is addicting

gachapon is sold primarily to kids.
pokemon packs, any TCG

[past sphinx]

how is it any different than buying a pack of pokemn cards?

[zenith hazel]

Since overworld wont be ready before the dao runs out of money might as well switch to illuvial packs. Even if there's no autobattler game modes where stats matter and we don't have anything to bring players here over going to other games anyways.

[nova onyx]

Money is for more than 1 year (I'm basing this on official burning reports and sales for Beyond season 3, among other things.
Assumes the same economic results from now until the hot end instead of the expected growth.).
But Kieran is promoting a free TFT autobattler with rewards that will drain the reward pool and players will immediately leave after rewards end, without taking into account stats (current Leviathan mode) and without OW runs...
Pause OW temporarily (=which most of the community understands as temporarily forever)

= In the words of doomsday prophets: End is near 🙂

[fringe hill]

lets try to stay on topic in here.
This thread is about the skin system.

[fringe hill]

If you offer both, people don't pick what they want, they pick whats more efficient.
If i have to grind for 100mins a game and get the same in 30 secs but it's 20% more expensive i don't think about that for long... i do a few clicks and after 10 min i grinded what i else had to spend a week of playing the games.

If there is unlimited supply of skins for 20% more expensive than the minting cost in zero, i don't grind skins on my zero plots. I recycle everything and instead build fuel production.

[nova onyx]

Agree. Now scanning of map dont reveal all and it is +200% more expensive and still need cca 20-60 minutes of playing.
If we make "something" +20% more expensive and earn in few seconds... no one need to play... But no one will be buying in the near future.

Same as skins... Now skin cost 0,002 USD in Zero land, but need to waiting 7-20 days for minting... If I can buy skin for 0,0024 USD (+20% more) and will have it immediatelly... "It's really hard to decide :)" (irony)

[nova onyx]

🙂

[plucky hearth]

Basically more people spending more money, more quickly creating higher demand for Fuel for land owners, got it 😀

[burnt kernel]

maybe just have both systems but offer different skins...

Illuvial based skins is only produced on IZ land. but migration scheme where current per suit line skin progress is a part of getting to the all-suit-line skin. (reducing complexity, based on existing system)

Future skins, that are all based on non-Illuvials skins, is offered in loot boxes, by the DAO. (this could be a selection of skins like "Santa suit skin", "Mozard raindeer skin", or other themes... but obviously this would be a future development)

[fringe hill]

for a shorter period of time.
or you think they can pump out new sets of Skins/illuvials/battleboards etc. as fast as new beyond waves?

[plucky hearth]

maybe just have both systems but offer different skins...

Exactly, good idea, whatever skins are available in loot boxes should be exclusive to loot boxes, therefore for people using the current system, those skins would remain unique and the only way of obtaining them.
Would create some balance.

or you think they can pump out new sets of Skins/illuvials/battleboards etc. as fast as new beyond waves?

Yes absolutely. Once we actually begin to create some strong revenue we could increase the art department to strengthen productivity. Crazy idea I know 😄 .

[fringe hill]

Makes sense.... If we Alter Arena into a lootbox System after that aswell we could actually replace almost all devs and hire even more Artists 👍

Maybe rename the products after that to avoid confusion into:
Cosmetics lootbox
Asset lootbox
Battle lootbox

[plucky hearth]

Makes sense.... If we Alter Arena into a lootbox System after that aswell we could actually replace almost all devs and hire even more Artists 👍

Not sure that would be wise as we will likley always need more devs that what we have, at least for the forseeable.

[barren jolt]

What about just having the option to reroll the suit on a BP in IZ? Seems like the quickest and easiest compromise imo

Give the reroll function to a maxed out quantum fabricant. Not like it's doing anything late game anyway 😅

[burnt kernel]

I don't think that would solve the issue... It's having unique skins for 18 different Suit lines, that is the problem. Ideally someone buying a skin would want to be able to use it on all 18 different Armor types. 🤗

[barren jolt]

Maybe, personally I want a skin to reflect the traits of my suit. So I wouldn't want Mantle or Xenolink for my Titanor skin, something like Scales or Shell is far more desirable imo. I get that that's just a me thing though, others might not care so much

[burnt kernel]

That would also work like that with this "new proposed skin system"... If I go to the market and buy 3 different skins, I would be able to put them on any of the 18 suit line. So I could put a Titanor skin on both the Scales and Shell, an Umbre skin on Mantle, and a Squizz skin on the rest of the Suits.

To me that makes more sense than having to buy one Titanor skin that can only fit a Shell armor type, and then another Titanor skin that will fit the Mantle, etc...

I would definitely also want to get skins that reflect the traits of the suits, I think that is one of the cool things about them 😁

[limber kiln]

i thought skins would have like a skin only slot, so whatevery you equip when you equip the skin you could only see the skin. also, i think having fewer skins like five but higher production value (more like monster hunter armors) is better. if project gonna go with the arena focus (which i agree with) i think some time earlier we should have pivoted into illuvial skins. i would love to see christmas atlas ingame. this all my own opinion. havent had time to read the full comments.

3 armors per line would have been enough for me to get hyped. maybe researching different things and facts to be able to gather info for a blueprint would be nice. but also i dont think throwing away existing work is the best solution.

i dont really know how much work is making monster hunter like armors

by monster hunter armor like i dont mean the style. i meant like having a titanor armor that reflects not only in color and print but also in intaglio or embossed.

i dont know anything about 3d production but maybe making 1 armor per line in this way was much less work than painting 2800 armors.

[grave fulcrum]

From what I remember, Aaron doesn't want a skin to make say Atlas purple because the first set of Illuvials is supposed to be Iconic. I'm guessing with set 2 we will be able to customize our Illuvials.

[limber kiln]

I guess I kinda agree but. Ranger armors are barely visible in arena.

I just saying from a sales standpoint. Illuvials skins would be great. But it’s just a guess and I’m expressing opinions.

[grave fulcrum]

I agree

[plucky hearth]

Wouldn't that sort of diminish holo and dark holo desirability?
The flex/rarity factor right now are the finish varients. Cover those with skins and they take a bit of a back seat.
I think for Arena battle boards/ drone blasts etc are more fitting. Skins in OW really for the ranger.
Just a thought.

[limber kiln]

Well you can always turn skins off. Holos has desirability on itself. You can always choose to show holo or skin. I agree skins in ow are for the ranger.

But skins for illuvials would cool af even for OW

[plucky hearth]

They definitely could be.
Hopefully they could be designed in a way where the holo/dh wouldn't be completely obfuscated.

[rustic cargo]

what if the illuvials skins can turn holo/dh

[limber kiln]

What about illuvials accessories

[lyric dragon]

how about we start focusing on making some actual decent games and move on from this skin meta? You can make all the skins you want it won't matter one bit if there are no good games.

[plucky hearth]

No reason you can't do both.

[lyric dragon]

ofc, but you already have tons of skins. Too many IMO for the current use cases and playerbase. What about good games? I'm still waiting...

[past sphinx]

good games need good skins

[lyric dragon]

https://tenor.com/view/star-trek-nod-approve-ok-agree-gif-13351868

[echo gate]

Easier to make a bunch of skins than a good game. Also, you can make one skin, shift the colors a bit and make more fairly quickly

Once the skins start affecting gameplay elements it gets more complex, but my point still stands

[lyric dragon]

that's why I don't like the idea of illuvials having skins. It will most likely affect gameplay since it will be harder to identify each illuvial for sure.

[past sphinx]

man, just gimme a skin with 'idgaf' across the front... or drippy gangsta bling... or 'evil pikachu'... otherwise they just meh

and no to illuvial skins for sure

can't we make an 'art' building in Zero where we can take our crafted skin and 'spray paint' on it??

come on... make it fun yall

[plucky hearth]

I have seen this in other games.
You receive a base skin with customisable elements.
You need to purchase or complete achievements to get "paint" to colour customise all of the available elements.
With a good few elements available for custmoisation, there are that many combos, it's difficult to see a matching one.

Although solid, I don't think they will be as popular as what the art team could put out, especially potential collab skins that could be available in the future.

[past sphinx]

For sure… anything to give some character and emotional connection…. However it is achieved Idc… just make it sick af 😁

[plucky hearth]

However it is achieved Idc… just make it sick af 😁

Absolutely!! All for that
Quality over quantity though 🙏

[limber kiln]

Of course. It since the feedback post is made we may as well start talking about it.

[burnt kernel]

There seems to be support for looking at a change to the current skin system, with a few main topics.

Now - Simplify the current “per suit line skin” by changing to an all-suit-line skin model. (so one skin can be used on all the different suit lines).

Future - More Skin options, possibly offered via Loot boxes. (there are some good ideas for adding more distinct skins. like hollow or theme skins, etc)

Challenges with changing the system now would be…

Some might have already minted multiple of the same BP type for different suit lines. These can however be sold as skins fitting the “all-suit-line” model, and there should still be a limited number of minted BP/Skins at this point.

Some might have researched multiple BP from the same Biodata, potentially up to 15 or 18 BP of the same type. With the “all-suit-line” model, you would only need one. If some form of migration scheme compensation can be found, it would be nice. (idea could be.. allow you to “burn” a BP to Morphopods, equal to the cost of minting that specific BP, or give some other benefits from owning multiple BP of same type)

@hard palm do the team have any view on potentially changing this, and will we need an IIP outlining this proposal ?

Personally I think the recent change to the “skin production” and how it’s all working now is really nice. except the complexity of having multiple suit line skins 🙂

[limber kiln]

I agree. it’s finally nice being able to mint blueprints and crafting skins. I just don’t agree with all the complexity .

[hard palm]

I don't have a team view for you on this, just my own. But I think both myself and the team would ask all interested in a migration like this to consider if the team effort to design and implement a migration like this is worth it and worth it now.
Not sure about the IIP being required here, but I summon the "land holder council members" @chilly dust @rustic cargo

[chilly dust]

If we are looking purely at the feedback in this channel I'd say it is clear and hits home for a lot of community members. The team, after reading it, should understand the concerns and how to approach the issue to rectify it. Making an official Proposal may not be necessary in this particular case.

I dont mean to discourage you from writing a proposal though, as the execution on the DAO side is fairly simple. You could write it yourself if you so wish 🙂

Since this is a change to the game-system, this could be seen as a GFP or Game Feature Proposal. This would be an official guideline for the team to gain an understanding of what the community would like to have changed and how the community would like to see it changed.

When you propose a change, the team does retain the authority on when and how the feature would roll out. Any changes to the proposed idea, however, would have to be approved by the community before the team can implement it.

Imo the GFP holds value because it shows that the team is accutely aware of the issue and that the proposed solution may very well come directly from the community. So if you would like to work on this with ICC and apparently also Jaganite, please reach out. 👍

[burnt kernel]

Thank you for your detailed response. I think it’s all fine, as long as the team has recognized the concerns, I am sure they are much more qualified to come up with a solution, and obviously also have the knowledge of how much effort a specific change would require, I also completely understand and appreciate they will have to look at prioritizing this against all the other things that needs to be worked on.

I don’t necessarily think we need IIP’s for everything, but constructive feedback can be just as useful, and the team can take the bits they feel is best suited for the current roadmap. Just wasn’t sure what would be best with this specific topic.

Thanks 🤗

[rustic cargo]

the <@&814435151307866142> is aware of this discussion and we will discuss it in our next meeting

changing the skin system will require a GFP

as for skins from lootbox. i would agree if the lootbox comes from landowners. we wouldnt want to take skins away from landowners would we

generally, id prefer for all kind of skins to come exclusively from IZ

[stuck wing]

This is a tricky topic. As it stands people have spent so much time researching different skins etc etc. But from a general game design perspective, I don't see how creating so many degrees of separation is exciting.

A compromise could be that each tier has 1 skin, cutting down the quantity by 3, and having it make somewhat more sense, to a person who has never touched Illuvium before.

[stuck wing]

agreed

[burnt kernel]

It is indeed tricky, but I do think it's better to address it now, then leave it as is. I think the recent change to skin production are really good and skins defiantly belongs to IZ and landowners. If we somehow can reduce the number of suit lines pr Skin, I think it would become a better experience, less confusing and would encourage people to own more skins.

Currently we got 130 nice unique skins, which is already a lot, but if you need one for 18 suit lines it makes 2340 combinations.

Ideally I think it should be one skin fits all suits... but would also help to reduce the numbers by having one skin per "Suit tier" or reduce the "Suit types" down to lets say 3. (tank, caster, fighter suit type).

looking forward to hear what you come up with in the meeting 🤗

[stuck wing]

Yeah plus we can do 1 for skin and 1 for drone too, so it's not too few items.

My only real concern is those that have been grinding for a long time. How do we resolve that

[hard palm]

Off the cuff relatively simple migration:

To get the all-suit blueprint for an illuvial, you need to progress through all of each of the five (or six) tiers by research (so five or six steps) with progressing difficulty
Having any suit blueprint for a Tier suit gives you that step, having multiple for a tier has no benefit

NFT Collection on IMX is flushed or deprecated and a new one republished

I've heard talks to have all Suit and Drone skins live in IZ, I don't agree with that, we already have many exceptions to it and its a nice marketing tool, especially if "full body skins" are more visible (MMO). All Set 1 Illuvials sure. There's value in keeping Future Sets and Set 1 holo and dark holo variants atleast partially flexible, but depends on community expectation, it's been a ride since these expectations were set

^ Personal opinions here

[stuck wing]

I mean ideally its just 1 nft for all suits and 1 for all drones. Moving it to a 5 suits tiers system is my worst case scenario depending on landowner thoughts.

[hard palm]

the tiers would live in the IZ client, it's just a progression system, only after all five steps for that illuvial are researched can you mint the blueprint

But fair, calling it "tier" is confusing, but tier <> step would be the mapping

[nova onyx]

And for blueprints and "facts" owners What exactly do these suggestions mean for Zero players/owners?

that they spent 6 months on fuel, played, enjoyed research (daily on T3 land for example 550 fuel * 180 days = 100K of fuel, includinf time, when the fuel "free bonus" was +100%, not +5000% as now)) and invented everything unnecessarily? Instead, will everyone get one and the same skin at once? The same skin for Tatopee and Rhamphyr?

Or what is the idea, I'm somehow lost, when from the system of a small simplification there is a proposal for 1+1 skin and that's it?

[stuck wing]

Don't mind that as an idea for sure

Would bridge the gap. Say if u have researched 7 scoriox skins, the migration would give you the 5 tiers complete straight away

[burnt kernel]

yes, the concern is those that have multiple Armor Blue Prints from the same biodata.... It would be great to have some actual data to see how many of those we actually have.

A progression where you have to collect 5 of each BP, to unlock the minting of BP that will go on all suit lines, might work. But still leaves some with BP that are not worth anything.

Maybe this "“burn” a BP to get Morphopods, equal to the cost of minting that specific BP could work as a compentation, but its a new feature that has to be developed. so not sure. So all Armor BP are change to "fits all suit lines" in IZ, if I now have 2 x Stoic Emberlynx BP, I can choose to "burn one" and get 200 Morphopods. (not sure about exact amount, just an example).

[nova onyx]

For example me T3 land: Only armor BP, To fit on the screen

This is the result of cca 180 daily scans 2x scanner, 5x research and now + 7 transducers and builted new production and storage capacity of elements for this for example:

[verbal blaze]

The problem with having that low of a number is that they are either worth nothing because land owners are pumping them out so fast or there are so many fails on research that the dopamine effect of succeeding doesn't get hit for land owners and they play less. The tier system that Perry talks about at least helps alleviate that and you can get some of that dopamine by succeeding on step progression.

I think the main issue isn't even that there are so many, it is that there are so many AND they are so similar, which is understandable due to team constraints. I would almost like to see a hybrid happen that has to do with Illuvial rarity. I have put no thought into this before now so just brain dumping but what if say T1 Illuvial BPs were universal for all skins but required more (a lot more to enhance the burning mechanism) Illuvials to make them. Whereas T5 Illuvials could be specific to each armour and require less Illuvials to make, each suit would be more rare which matches the rarity of the T5 Illuvials.

[rustic cargo]

i agree that the skins look too similar to matter

[verbal blaze]

One thing I have to say about this though, we have land holders making decisions with their resources that they are spending time and money on and to do a change later is not respecting that. We need this decided now, not in a few months.

[fringe hill]

Why not let everything as it is, but if you found for example all 18 armor blueprints of an Illuvial biodata, you unlock the possibility to find the armor BP you can use on all armors. Same with drones.

So those 18 armors or 4 drone blueprints we can find now act like a puzzle to solve where you get piece by biece until you got them all to unlock the General Blueprint usable on all armors /drones.

[nova onyx]

I dont understandant clear probably: You need 18 different blueprints to make 1 skin? Or I dont understand probably?
Would it be necessary to find 18 different BPs of same illuvial in the land, or would this be an event only in OW, meaning would it be possible to buy BP?

[fringe hill]

no, exactly the same system as it is now.
But you add a "master"-Armor-BP one can find after having found all 18 armor BP's

[nova onyx]

OK:
In Zero I found 18 "rhampy" armor BP ... + Master one (19th)...

What and how can I make skins?
So is this a change at all, or is it just adding 205 BP armors extra? 🙂
(I guess something is lost in translation, but I really don't understand this time.)

[stuck wing]

I would agree, but 18 bps is way too long. Its a pretty tall ask.

U need breadcrumbs along the way.

[burnt kernel]

completely get it.. but you are actually not quite done investing in your cool skin.

You still need 3xPho (around 2$ each if bought on dex). plus 1160 solon. and then you will need the Mantle suit itself, which is also quite expensive. and then you can use it just on that one Suit. Which is one of the 18 suits. I dont think many would actually buy those skins, for it to be used only on that one suite.

[fringe hill]

the breadcrumbs are the pieces you can still sell

those normal armor BP's for a specific line likely going to be cheaper and a buyer might think he uses that armor anyways always an he doesn't need the flexibility

[nova onyx]

T5S1 illuvial cost 1 USD 🙂
T1S1 0,02

Yes, you can choose between cheap skin (Atlas 0,05 BP + 3 0,02 = 0,1 USD for skin) or best skin Rhamphyre (BP? + 3x10 USD = cca 40 USD for skin)

This seems good, supports exclusivity and collecting, right?

BTW: I burned cca 1000 USD in fuel in BP research in T3 land for last 180 days... exclude time and "building cost"

Is BP for 0,05 USD / each cheap or expensive?

[stuck wing]

Now I'm confused. So there's still 18 nfts?

[fringe hill]

If you want your breadcrumbs you can totally keep them in as they are now

You can also add little things you get when a research failed. Like pieces for emotes you have to collect aswell a liitle bit of fuel or whatever

[hot stone]

I Agree with this 100%.

[tender haven]

FWIW I'm against having all 18 BPs AND a "master" BP. As a player that's confusing. As a compromise, I am favorable for one suit per bio-data per tier. It provides a clear path to migration, and would feel better to me as a player in both games.

[chilly dust]

Finally something to work towards. You mean that we should all be done again in half a week of playing? I would enjoy having some goal. Like 18 blueprints -> finally a Master blueprint available to me!

Imo that is the first significant sense of progression since building up IZ!

[stuck wing]

Alright lets do the maths on that because that's how I'm interpreting it.

A land has at most, 5 Mat labs on it. And each of them has a 5% chance of success for finding a blueprint. Lets say that chance is closer to 10% after modifiers such as efficiency and facts. (could be higher idk).

This means that each day you have a 50/50 shot of finding a given blueprint.

Which means after 18 suits, you acquire the suit blueprint after 36 days. There is 200 Illuvials. Which means acquiring every single Illuvial blueprint on a single plot of land will take you almost 20 years.

Now sure this is pretty cool in a certain sense, it means you can't go for every single Illuvial, boosts scarcity and so on. But only finding a single NFT after 36 days of work is a pretty savage video game imo, and could take much longer if unlucky.

I think it needs to be adjusted a bit, mostly because this time consumption is relegated entirely to the material labs. Maybe u need to find all 3 biodata for a line, and then you can research the blueprints for that entire line of Illuvials. This splits the time between mat labs and scanners, meaning you are still finding things all the time and not making your time seem almost wasted.

[fringe hill]

is it smart to set up a system where every land has a shot to get every BP?

[chilly dust]

There are 20000 plots. If all those plots get all 200 master blueprints we have surely fucked the economy.

Now do the maths again, we want SOMETHING in our ecosystem to be worth something that means not everypne can get it.

Id siggest: choose your one blueprint on your one plot that is in line with your tier and have a good shot at getting it.

[stuck wing]

I think you are right there, and that's what I said. But what if 5-10 new illuvials are added every year? I just think 20 years could be reduced to 6-8 and still have the same effect but be more fun

[fringe hill]

i think the calculation approach is wrong in it's basics
Calcualte how long you need for 1-2 Master blueprints.

[chilly dust]

Id say increase the time to 40 years. And then aim for 1-5 blueprint depending on your plot tier.

[stuck wing]

I think 36 days is too long. But that's only because there's nothing inbetween

What if u unlocked a small blueprint at 18 days and a bigger prize at 36 days. Idk what that looks like, but it will help a lot

[chilly dust]

You unlock things all the time. The normal blueprints. You just said that you would get one roughly every 2 days

[stuck wing]

In this scenario, the normal blueprints aren't mintable. They are essentially a tickbox. That's not an achievement, but I guess I might be narrow on that view

[chilly dust]

I was going off of what Spoon said: Exactly the same as now, but with a master blueprint.

Which means you are able to make the blueprint NFTs to create armors from your plot based on your completed researches. "The normal blueprints arent mintable" is a misrepresentation of the current situation, since you in fact can mint blueprints based on your "normal" blueprints. Naturally the data isnt a blueprint and i woulf expect the new master blueprint would also be land-bound.

[stuck wing]

What I understand is the whole point of this thread is having 18 blueprints for 1 Illuvial is silly, from a gameplay perspective.

Anyone entering the game could buy a blueprint and see that it doesn't work on every armour and then just quit. This is 99% of the problems Illuvium has had so far.

I am working towards a solution that eliminates all of that, 1 blueprint applies to the entire range of suits for a specific illuvial/illuvial line

[chilly dust]

A new thread for ideas to fix the skin system may be useful then. I thought once Kirito shared his overview and with Perry reading it we would have a finalisation of the issue. Now we can explore ways to make the most of the current system.

[fringe hill]

Transform those 18 blueprints into pieces to create a Master blueprint. Job done

[stuck wing]

I do like the idea of these 'pieces' forming a new trading economy, kind of like Pirate Nation and their plan components.

But I'd also want those pieces to not be usable to create armour skins on their own.

Find pieces > combine > mint skin

[fringe hill]

You were the one screaming for breadcrumbs 😄

[stuck wing]

I think creating a new trading economy benefits this entire thing well and probably resolves all the issues.

We keep all the current systems. Landowners still have deep control.

And the gameplay functionality in the Overworld gets greatly improved

[hard palm]

Tweaking probabilities is another option if this were to become an IIP and we want to play with length of obtaining something meaningful

Probably necessary since before the latest changes you could get duplicates, duplicate breadcrumbs don't make sense. "Stage 5 Breadcrumb" could be harder than "Stage 4 Breadcrumb".

Or just keep it simple and make it sequential, but play with base odds

[stuck wing]

All great additional levers for sure

[burnt kernel]

I like the idea of a progression where you have to collect "pieces" to unlock the minting of BP.

Originally when IZ was created, I thought that you had to get the biodata before being able to find the blueprint, which I liked and would have been a nice "progression system".

Like in this one you would have to find the 5 Facts for Blotto before you could have a change to find the Blueprint.

I guess the question is.. how long should it take to produce one Skin.

if we have an estimate on that it would be easier to work backwards to determine the probabilities.

Objectively, I think 18 pieces is a little much. but I obviously see the problem we have with all the Blueprints that has already been discovered.

[fringe hill]

I personally feel with the current odds 18 is pretty good. But to answer that question properly one would have to have data, like know how Long a season lasts, how many landplots roughly are focusing on science, how many Lands are actually played etc.

In General i feel 1-5 BP per season when researching 24/7 should be the goal, to create somewhat of a scarcity..
If there's Like 20% Land not being played, and 30% of the Land being played focusing on BP there's still 5k ish Land doing science. With 1 BP each Land thats 5k blueprints... With drones and armor we are at 260 different BP.... So having a monopoly on a blueprint is unlikely. But possible you are just 2-3 people owning it and maybe can talk to each other about pricing/scarcity and Stuff.

[burnt kernel]

yes, it would be good with some data. It's hard to make assumptions on this. ☺️

Personally I think making one Blueprint in between 40-60 days would feel ok, if there is also some progression tied to it. but it all comes down to what scarcity we would be looking for. But it also have to feel like getting a Blueprint on a T1 plot is not an impossible task, so need to get the right balance.

But with a progression system like this we could always tweak the probabilities, which makes it a good way to control the scarcity if it needs to be changes... we could always say that after a specific number of a BP has been found the probability of finding that BP drops.

[rustic cargo]

yes

[nova onyx]

"But only finding a single NFT after 36 days of work "

I absolutely don't understand your calculation.
Yes, you have about 25% daily chance to scan new illuvilal.
And 10-50% daily chance to found blueprint

But blueprint have "unlimited live" and you can mint unlimited NFT daily... (in practice I can mint 2x-3x T1S1 BP NFT daily on T3 land, or about 1x T5 in 2 days). 2x T1S1 in T2 land or T5 1x in 3 days. Now. Without new optimalization for elemenet mining (now I miss elements more than fuel)

[twin saddle]

Hi guys, my suggestion on the topic. let's leave the current system as is, but add a new type of blueprints: Mega Set Blueprints (for example, Set 1 Archie Mega Blueprint), which can be forged from all current individual blueprints of the current set of the same illuvial. When next set comes to life, if there is still Archie, but with different affinity etc, the Set 2 Archie Mega Blueprint can be forged of all individual Archie set 2 blueprints etc. This way, nobody is hurt, landholders will still grind for individual blueprints, the "lasy" players will have their easy Mega Blueprints (for higher price, ofc), and the "tinkery" players who like to mess with stuff and also save money, will use individual blueprints they want, and can also take part in the economy and forge Mega Blueprints. Same for drones.

[nova onyx]

Yes, seems very like as suggestion 18 plans + 1 master plan for each illuvials wihich was listed here. Right?

I'm for something like that. No problem.
And it doesn't matter so much whether the master plan will be created directly in the land (probably a worse option, because someone would have to be "lucky" and research all 18 blueprints of a given Illuvials) or if it will be possible to produce it, for example, in FORGE by combining 18 blueprints of a given Illuvials (in my opinion, this is better, because it will be possible to buy the missing BP on the open market, or for example, to transfer it from another of my lands, etc.)

[twin saddle]

haha, sorry, maybe, didn't bother to read all the topic, just have heard about the idea of streamlining blueprints it the new Scoriox Download, and this made me nervous, i have a lot of blueprints discovered😅

And yep, i agree, better forge them in the FORGE in Overworld, this way players without landplots can also participate in the fun

Also this way the whole line Hyper Blueprints can be forged, which unite all Mega Blueprints of sets of the line, so that Hyper Axolotl Blueprint is applicable to all Axolotles of all sets.

what a powerful artifact it would be

[past sphinx]

'One suit to rule them all' 😈

[rustic cargo]

https://tenor.com/view/creation-creativity-sacrifice-celebrimbor-charles-edwards-gif-26635632

[hot stone]

How will the “Master Suit” work for those who have already applied a skin to a random piece of armor today?

[reef walrus]

Just make it so each land can only craft 1 of each "master" blueprint and skin. For the people who already farmed the blueprints with a specific suit allow them to be broken down and sold to other landowners that haven't unlocked that blueprint yet or broken down for a value of fuel that the DAO feels is fair value. We don't have the playerbase currently to support mass skin creation. You guys are gonna be back in here in 3 months bitching that skins have no value. Once the playerbase grows we should reassess the situation.

[grim crow]

I think this takes away the joy of crafting, of which there is little in OW. I think everyone's ideas can be combined.
There is no need to scrape the whole system, just tweak it.
Crate variety and obvious differences in styles, perhaps depending on factions and like others mentioned Illuvial textures and colours. Provide the opportunity to add on elements, cosmetic or slight stat/ability changes. Allow for Dye changes and mixing elements of skins, ie: it's no longer one suit yet pieces.
Some suits, partner/promo suits remain one set or piece yet still able to be dyed.
Resources could be used to put elements together, maybe even using the forge. Using AI could create Random variants depending on the resources used, thus keeping the art in tack yet creating something truly individual.
Looking at how rather than why not, there are endless possibilities.

[ember ibex]

Question.
With the current system can anyone explain what suit needs to be crafted in o/w with what bp?
I can’t see which suit names match which bp name. Am I blind?

[nova onyx]

BP name correspond with suit line name... which you can't find?

[hard moat]

I don't understand why we went from a blueprint that can mint unlimited amount of skins. And the limiting factor was burning illuvials. Now we use 1 blueprint for 1 skin. I see no reason why we have to burn illuvials now. The limiting factor is the blueprint itself.

[nova onyx]

You can mint unlimited quantity of blueprints in zero from "main blueprint" ... simillar system but little better for land owners...

It doesn't matter at the moment, skin creation still doesn't work 3 weeks after the patch

[tall wave]

I am not up to date on the current state of skin creation. I went today to forge a skin in the forge, and it says I don't have the blueprint, but I do. is that what you mean by the skin creation still doesn't work or do you think I have a unique problem?

[nova onyx]

Can you sent screen here?
You have minted NFT blueprint or only blueprint in land ?

DONT MAKE SKINS NOW... You will stuck it in forge - BUG !

[tall wave]

only minted in land

[nova onyx]

Only researched or really minted by Transducer?

[tall wave]

minted by transducer, I see it in illuvidex and token trove

relentless zephyrlynx warframe

[nova onyx]

Hmmm, seems OK.

[nova onyx]

Dont you have it stucked in processing? (in forge in OW?)

[tall wave]

No, not processing yet. Thanks for the info about the bug, but I didn't get that far. It says I don't have the blueprint.

[verbal blaze]

We need some way of burning Illuvials to get the numbers down. Which is great if the skins sell as landowners would buy Illuvials off the marketplace and then burn them, selling the skins. Only works if we have players wanting the skins though and if the DAO isn't producing too many skins out of thin air. If there are too few players or the DAO is producing too many skins then it all breaks down.

[nova onyx]

Complete ekonomics was broken now... and don't expect many changes until April 2025 ... rather later

[verbal blaze]

Yeah, it really doesn't matter if the economic system is good or bad right now. Until there are more players nothing will work. 🙂

[nova onyx]

The whole economy of top stats collapsed after Kieran and Scoriox started very loudly promoting nerfs of stats, or at best the complete cancellation of the Leviathan mod...

Up until then it was working pretty well and people were building top teams for Leviathan...

or : What are your stats for now? Just a nice picture...

Let's say you need 4x top illuvials as team for OW T3 maps... and this is the end 😦

but we're getting off topic 🙂

[verbal blaze]

We do need to have a reason to have Illuvials - other than landowners being the only buyers so we can skin them. Hoping to get some info on what the future plans are during the Town Hall today.

[lyric dragon]

it is true that we need burning mechanisms. But having to burn 3 illuvials for 1 skin doesn't feel right IMO.

[nova onyx]

I expect a lot of announcements about what will happen at the turn of Q1/Q2 ...
And I think we will still be looking at the same thing in the summer as we are now... 😦

Maybe automatic drone runs will work, because we need more lowstats Illuvials on the market. (SARCASM)

[verbal blaze]

That was my first reaction after years of being told we would need 1. However, with prices of Illuvials what they are I agree with the decision so skins maintain (some) value. As long as the people come so we can recoup our costs and make a little profit as landowners of course.

[verbal blaze]

Now we are really off topic.

[burnt kernel]

Is there any update on the discussions/proposal to change towards a solution where 1 blueprint applies to the entire range of suits for a specific Illuvial line. possibly with a progression system in place whereby you need to collect all 18 suit BP to mint the "master blueprint". @stuck wing @chilly dust 🤗

My personal opinion, is that this would give a better experience for the players crafting/buying the skins, and the progression system would also work for the Landowners, making the BP's.

We have started to see a steady production of BP's being minted. "Luckily" there is a bug where it is not possible to craft the actual Skin yet, but as soon as that is fixed it will add the to complexity of making a change to the Skin system. I am aware it requires dev. time, but it would be really good to at least have an update on whether we expect the system to be changed in the near future.

[fringe hill]

@balmy zodiac how much of a workload would such a change or similar be?
Were you aware of the discussion and maybe already thought about it?

[chilly dust]

I must say, that ive been pretty relaxed on this front. Knowing that the team has responded in this thread shows that ICC's duty of bringing up information should be completed to an extent. The IMC also actively participated in the discussion so I stepped back a bit from this, expecting both IMC and team to work on this front and to look for a proper implementation of a new and more advanced skin system.

If there has been no progress, we can still write up a small proposal, but it would likely be a GFP, that would be more like a recommendation than anything else. I would be happy to help write something along those lines of course. But with IMC and team aware of the issue, I dont think it would progress the implementation of this idea a whole lot 🤔

With a GFP, it would be up to the team to pick up, brainstorm an implementation and write a GDD. Regardless of the GFP, we are waiting on just that. So if IMC hadnt done so yet, Ill take this up with the team and see what they say. If they are more inclined to write a GDD or at least confirm that brainstorming is ongoing after a GFP has passed governance, then lets write something up 🙂

[stuck wing]

The team is aware that it needs simplification. We are essentially leaving it up to their judgement at this point but they are across the concerns

[limber kiln]

Glad to hear that

[fringe hill]

i wouldn't say that ICC duty is done.
If we remain like this that's fine, but be aware that it's basically a dead system until further information.
Nobody is going to pay 500$ to equip himself with a couple rhamphyre skins so he always shows that skin in gauntlet if he knows that system will change at some point.
The consumer basically knows it will change but he doesn't know when or how it will change, so no $ being spent in that system.

It's basically the same as with the stats/lvl impact of illuvials.
No consumer is going to spend a ton of money to build a deck because he knows the complete system will change/rebalance at some point.
How and when is unknown, so one stays at the sideline and waits.

[fringe hill]

i hope the councils are aware of that 🙂
at the moment in the whole IP there are 2 (sub-)systems with a clear red line and that is beyond and Arena-ranked-mode.
Every other system lacks massive clarity and guidelines which results in no consumer spending.
For example the fuel system itself, new fix pricing of fuel, stats/level of illuvials, automated drone runs, mmo-lite, and now the skins crafted with BP's.
All the uncertainties in all those system will stop all consumer spendings except those who are not aware of changes, which likely go crazy and call ruggs as soon as the changes will come and some highly speculative farmers hoping they can make big bucks at some point.

I guess one can see that in the data of playtime/revenue generated by all (sub-)systems.
I don't know the numbers but i would bet a couple bucks that Beyond is far ahead in terms of revenue and probably increasing compared to last wave, while for example Overworld probably had a drastic breakdown of playtime as soon as debates about stat changes/rebalancing started.

And now Blueprint demand is going to be killed before it even really started. 🙂

[verbal blaze]

Yup, that's the same with everything in the ecosystem right now. There are people who don't pay for fuel because they don't know what changes will be made and how that will affect them.