#Make (almost) everything F2P

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

ember perch
#

Thanks to all the valuable discussions since release I thought more about how to improve the pricing in OW. This is just an idea. So please stay constructive and make sure to raise concerns or add points if I missed something. The intention of the idea is to onboard as many players as possible and give value to Illuvials by utility only. With all the negative effects of possible price decline if that doesn't work.

Instead of trying to change the monetization of the game or introduce new mechanisms to try to fix one problem while creating new ones I propose a very clear line that allows to play the whole game either for free or by paying. All features will be available for free but with benefits for paying customers. Let me explain:

Free to play

  • Free OW runs (all stages)
  • Collecting Illuvials, Ores, Essences
  • Fusing weapons, suits
  • Having NFTs ingame
  • Survival mode
  • Ascendant arena
  • Gauntlet
  • Remove all free rotation decks from arena
  • Impossible to capture any holo/dark holo
  • No randomized stats for Illuvials/weapons. Every stat will be set to 0%
  • No access Leviathan mode
  • Everybody has to build it's own deck for playing arena
  • No arena reward, but the ability to create community tournaments with a prize pool
  • If a player buys a holo/dh they can use it in Ascendant because there stats are normalized
  • Players have to buy at least a team of 8 Illuvials, x weapons, x suits from paying players to be able to enter any Leviathan mode with this single team only. No mixup between free/paid Illuvials

Pay to play

  • Payed stage runs with fuel
  • Every feature from F2P
  • Ability to capture holos/Dark holos
  • Ability to get randomized stats on Illuvials/Weapons
  • Access to Leviathan arena
  • Access to Leviathan gauntlet
  • ILV reward system for Leviathan arena (Leaderboard, tournaments)
#

Benefits:

  • Players can experience the whole Illuvium universe and fall in love with the creatures, lore and beautiful region landscape
  • No barrier to start playing. Illuvium could shoot up to Top played games on Epic Game store in no time
  • This would use a somewhat approved web 2 model by making a game F2P and monetize by skins only
  • It would differentiate Illuvium from other games because only paying players distribute skins (holo/dh + drone/ranger skin) to others and not the game studio
  • Every type of player can enter for free. Collectors = OW, competitive players = ascendant arena
  • Even free 0% stat Illuvials can be sold by players to earn a small amount of money because everybody has to build their own deck for ascendant arena if they want to play. But since everything is free the price should be somewhat low for starter deck
  • On the technical side this should need to big changes that would take months to implement
  • Nothing changes for current OW or IZ players

Cons

  • F2P could be heavily botted and Illuvial prices will rapidly decline. This might be an issue or not. Because low prices give players an easy access to arena but it gives F2P players less ways to earn.
  • Illuvium would make a "do or die" decision in changing the monetization in that way. The only way for revenue is enough players going for paid content and Leviathan arena. If Illuvium as a studio is not able to bring in enough utility to make paid Illuvials worth it then revenue could heavily suffer
#

For me I can only bring this idea to the Founders of Illuvium @lyric stream , @tired sequoia , @amber totem and the council. I think this could set up Illuvium for massive success and have very high conviction that the team behind Illuvium is able to deliver multiple game modes that will add more and more utility to the Illuvials and make it worth paying for the game.

robust plover
#

So how does the DAO generate revenues? Skins only?

ember perch
# robust plover So how does the DAO generate revenues? Skins only?
  • By paying players who want to get holo, dark holo and Illuvials with improved stats for Leviathan mode
  • By player who want to get holos for selling it to f2p players
  • By transaction fees on trades
  • By players who get Illuvials to get benefits on future Illuvial game modes that ideally have the same structure of free/paid or Illuvium is adding new game modes for paying players only

Risky, but it could work.
We have to consider that we could be possibly faced with the fact that either it is paid for everything and nobody plays the game or we get alot of players and try to convert as much as possible to paying customer to make up for that

limber cloud
cunning void
#

For F2P players, if they capture an Illuvial, it will remain as a non-NFT. However, they could bring it to a facility to turn it into an NFT, but they would have to pay ETH or something similar.

sly current
#

I don’t think we need to do a full 360 from our current system, I agree that we need to let the game come first, money second.
Trying to minimize payment stops to make the game more immersive. And work on getting fiat money onboarding smooth and fast.

exotic cloud
#

Is it not too soon to think about this heavy changes of direction? Game is out just for 5 days. Still no sILV2 burned enough, still no fuel produced by lands, still no evidences of bonding curve when capturing...
Now everything seems doomed because we have few players, lot of illuvials on the marketplace at ridicously prices cause people are catching them using sILV2, and fuel prices are at maximum.
We need to wait

robust plover
#

While I think the community as a whole are trying to help. I am certain the team also have ideas regarding this, which I would like to see before I support something. I also think they should look at paying good money from a proven web 2 game economist with a proven track record, to look at our systems and suggest changes.

ember perch
limber cloud
cunning void
#

I like your idea @ember perch because this could maybe remove some bots.

ember perch
sly current
ember perch
# robust plover While I think the community as a whole are trying to help. I am certain the team...

I am sure they do. I also think that many "solutions" already came up while we still don't have all the data. But the team can look at the feedback, especially if the community is in favour of it, and can also give us feedback if they maybe already considered something like this. The communication with the team is as valuable for us as is our feedback for them. The more we know the better our proposals will get

ember perch
# sly current I think for sure there is something good in here, but I think we can achieve a l...

Whenever you give something for free that can be brought over into a paying economy then it will be abused. So stage 0 runs are part of the problem. This is why I tried to eliminate the way to sell free stuff. With my solution only paying players would be able to sell anything that has a meaningful value. While still showing F2P players the power of NFTs by letting them resell their bought stuff later.
And the F2P economy still exists but it does not go into the paid economy. Only the other way around

rancid idol
#

This will drive the value of everything other then holos through the floor, great way to wreck the economy

#

the game is a few day old with no fiat payments in place give it a chance to work then adjust if needed

ember perch
ember perch
timid storm
#

"land owner crying"

rancid idol
#

You get quite a few crypto games communities cry to make the game cheaper and then get upset when there NFT's become worthless

ember perch
rancid idol
ember perch
rancid idol
#

check the marketplace most illuvials are dirt cheap now anyways

ember perch
rancid idol
#

Ppl never seem to realise that the team have to get revenue to keep the lights on and games are expensive to build. If you remove most of the revenue streams what then ?

ember perch
rancid idol
ember perch
rancid idol
# ember perch Illuvium is doomed if there will never be enough utility for Illuvials (see curr...

the game is a few days old and your calling it doomed ? the vast majority of web 2 players dont understand crypto and have no way of getting money into the game as theres no fiat payments. Wait and see what happens once ppl can just enter cc or debit card details in a couple of minutes and bang there good to go. Ive had the problem myself so i know theres a problem getting money into the game

rancid idol
#

Ppl need time to discover the game etc, axie wasnt a hit when it was first released

high grove
#

I get the immediate knee jerk reaction, but I would say A) let them get everything stable and B) give it a few weeks before rethinking monetization models. I think you could keep everything the same, but give ALL players a daily free t1 run, with occasional tasks to earn t2 and t3 runs. Since this would be negative for land owners, a compromise would be to limited the land inflation down the line.

ember perch
# rancid idol the game is a few days old and your calling it doomed ? the vast majority of web...

I correct myself. Illuvium will be doomed in the future if no players come in. We have 1 year left to get revenue in. That is not much time if the team doesn't act fast. The team already tried stuff like ascendant arena that did not work out and that did cost some time. They will get more tries to see what will work and what not. But at some point it has to work. That's why I said we need utility to keep players collecting regardless of what monetization we have.

rancid idol
ember perch
high grove
#

I agree. but we should also be aware that this is jarring for normal gamers. Its a very different system, and if you aren't someone who gets economics are you that excited? The game needs a way to connect the two audiences, the hardcore geeks that want to grind into an actual economy, which I definitely am, and the casual normie.

ember perch
# high grove I get the immediate knee jerk reaction, but I would say A) let them get everythi...

Unless all the other solutions that require a total rework of the monetization this proposal can easily implemented in some months when the current one doesn't work out. I am biased and would obviously see it implemented rather sooner than later because I think the first impression matters. If players see the game and turn away becaues they don't have enough money to play they might not come back. So I prefer a good first impression. But I can see points for implementing it later too.

#

Especially since it is a decision that effects the whole game. Those arent made easy

high grove
#

Do you guys know how diablos and other arpgs have seasonal characters, and wipes...do you think there is something there with a persistent economy like we have now, where only those illuvials have utility but then one off seasons with no nfts but prizes like the month long hunt we did

#

so you log in to diablo, you have your normal non season character and then your seasonal character...illuvials non season character is always the real economy, the seasonal character is gathering all the illuvials like we did on test net, granted daily fuel, and compete in contests but those are not nfts and dont have arena utility

ember perch
# high grove I get your point. I don't think players understand how the system is set up in a...

The thing is players can't keep playing with the value of the NFT. They have to purchase fuel. So they have to spend only if they want to build a collection for quite some time. And if running out of money prevents them from playing then they leave and never come back. At this point they don't care about scarcity if they cannot play anymore. But to build up the IP we want players playing the game for hours and hours straight. This is not possible now for an average gamer

#

It is such a web 3 way to say you should spend an endless amount of money because we give you NFTs.

#

This is why web 2 player think web 3 games are bad and a money grab

high grove
#

I understand that, but part of the magic is no one really can "own them all" without enriching other PLAYERS for their time. But I agree with your point in a way, if players aren't engaging for hours and hours, falling in love with the characters, the appeal of owning those nfts go down.

#

its not a money grab, its the opposite...a money grab is we sell you a skin, we get 100% of the revenue. This is you spend $20 bucks, it goes to participants in the community that played the game.

ember perch
cosmic lantern
#

A lot of people have the same direction of ideas, my biggest gripe is the pay to click version we have now, gating many out of what would be an overworld experience. The fun is in catching them all and using them, whilst not paying for every step of the way

ember perch
cosmic lantern
#

I would much prefer the pay once, and play all you want, introducing those top 1% pay walls later for progression or flexes

ember perch
# cosmic lantern I would much prefer the pay once, and play all you want, introducing those top 1...

Isn't that similar to mine? The top 1% would be the ones paying for travel and collecting holos/dark holos while a normal player only gets the normal boring 0% Illuvials in arena. The question is only if that is sustainable. But we could add arena rewards at first and then expand arena modes for paid Illuvials only.
The disadvantage would be for sure that non paying players will be collecting everything quite fast when there are no holos/dark holos. But I think there are more tasks planned for OW that helps with that. And they could still be converted to paying players if done right

cosmic lantern
# ember perch Isn't that similar to mine? The top 1% would be the ones paying for travel and c...

I think the end message is the same, we just get there different ways. Whether or not any of these are able to be implemented is another conversation.
I don't think you can separate so much between paying and non paying always. Everybody has to be in the same boat for the majority of play.
Let the whalers whale on top 1% upgrades, a travel that has more rare spawn chances, cosmetics, illuvial stat upgrade boost for ascendant etc. Stuff like that.
And start up the furnace..

rancid idol
#

If they implement your proposal the the ftp players will go through the roof looking to extract as much as they can from the economy for free. 80+% of all ntfs will be worthless with only holos having some value. Look at splinterlands they had the same problem with ftp bot farms raping the economy and they have spent the last 18 months trying to to correct the problem losing a huge portion of there player base in the process. Trust me you don’t want millions of ftp players extracting all of the value from the game. What you’re proposing will kill the game real quick. Kroge made a small economy blunder in cryptoblade very early on which allowed ftp players to extract all of the value from the game and its never recovered he’s spent the last 3 years trying but I think he’s now given up. I think it’s good that ppl can play for free but you have to put in to take out of the economy and play for fun. Your proposal is a guaranteed disaster for the project

limber cloud
rancid idol
limber cloud
rancid idol
#

lol it shows how little thought he put into his armchair economist proposal we are 5 days into launch with the team getting the game stable, bugs squashed and all issues from launch sorted out the last thing we all need is the economy destroyed. Let’s just chill let the team do there thing and see how things pan out.

winter kindle
#

This model could've been something worth considering (maybe not in its exact form but at least the general idea) IF Illuvium was actually targeting mainstream and mass-adoption.

Sadly the DAO already gave up on that and decided to post-pone mainstream and mass adoption for "later".

Thank you for your contribution and it's good to see this kind of reasoning but I don't think it will work.

rancid idol
#

You want ftp players come in and see if they like the game and if they want too become a contributing member of the community and game

#

That’s excellent get the game in top notch state before chasing mainstream thank goodness for a measured approach and not a knee jerk reaction

ember perch
# rancid idol If they implement your proposal the the ftp players will go through the roof loo...

F2P players can't extract much because no paying player will buy the free Illuvials because paid illuvials have better stats, are shiny and have better utility. So F2P players will only sell to other F2P players. Yes, the prices of free Illuvials will fall. But it is a free2play economy in itself. You cannot extract much because all good Illuvials are still behind a paywall. It is like T0 Illuvials now. They are worthless. But nobody cares and goes for the good Illuvials

ember perch
ember perch
# limber cloud ~~he saying runs free, but pay for mints~~ ok, he changed a post or I misread 😂...

You confused the posts. Getting non NFTs was in another proposal.

F2P players get also NFTs. And theoretically everybody can buy them. But the free NFTs can't be used anywhere except for ascendant arena and free OW runs. If you want to go into Leviathan and earn rewards you need the "premium" NFTs. It is like having 2 collections. "Free illuvials" and "Premium Illuvials".

So paying players can sell teams for others to compete in Leviathan. Or they sell holos for free players who want to own holos. It is basically the same economy as we have now, but you can also play for free with less features.

ember perch
winter kindle
limber cloud
ember perch
#

But I agree the name "Free NFT" and "premium NFT" is bad. I only used it to name different things

rancid idol
# ember perch F2P players can't extract much because no paying player will buy the free Illuvi...

By definition F2P won’t be buying anything so all colour illuvial including T5 will become worthless even good illuvials as there will be so many of them will no one to buy what your proposing will destroy most of the economy and what happens to those that have already paid to collect them illuvials ? You make there illuvials free and most will just walk away from the game and they were the ppl that were paying to keep the lights on

rancid idol
ember perch
rancid idol
#

I’ve read enough to know it’s suicide for the project. If ftp like they game they will become pay to play players and take part in the game community and economy and if not they will move on and play something else

#

Converting FTP players to paying players is the answer and not giving away most of the game for free

compact anchor
#

I genuinely think Overworld is functioning correctly right now, and as more fuel is being sold into the market by land, the prices to build a deck will come down.

The main bot protection we have right now is the cost of a run, removing that doesn't just have a risk of Illuvials going to 0, it ensures it. How fast just depends on how much money botters can make by doing so.

I get that you can make it not AS damaging by having Illuvials from paid runs have stats and able to be holo/DH, but there's no point in even tokenizing F2P Illuvials under this system. You could just have them be in-game assets like dan suggested, that prevents you from having to sign transactions.

Mostly I think this just severely limits the DAO's ability to generate revenue. We have systems in place to make things more accessible to F2P players, like the free rotation in Arena as an example. What I'm primarily hearing hasn't been "I can't afford to make an Arena deck", it's been "I like playing Overworld but cannot play it indefinitely". So maybe a gameplay experience that's closer to Overworld but doesn't require payment all the time is the solution, but I don't think mapping OW over to a completely F2P model is the solution either.

ember perch
# compact anchor I genuinely think Overworld is functioning correctly right now, and as more fuel...

Thanks for your honest feedback.

True they don't need to be NFTs. I just saw no disadvantage in minting them for F2P players to get them into the NFT ecosystem. I am well aware of the risks for this proposal. This proposal would only work if the demand for holo/dark holo and random stats Illuvials is high enough to generate revenue through paid runs. But it is hard for us to decide that because we don't have the full picture of what is planned for the next months and how Illuvial demand will be created over the next years.

OW is such a beautiful game and I am sure that the team has new features coming. This proposal is mainly from the perspective to be able to play OW indefinitely and enjoy it as a single game. So I would really like a OW gameplay experience that is more accessible.

elfin light
#

Scholarships will make the OW F2P. Just gotta find some whale willing to pay for your game time.

sweet hemlock
ember perch
high grove
high grove
#

the monthly season is always wiped, no expectation of keeping illuvials...like an arpg season where you always make a new character

elfin light
sweet hemlock
restive vale
#

It's already a scratch and win overworld, where does one draw that line?

winter kindle
# restive vale It's already a scratch and win overworld, where does one draw that line?

Lootbox mechanics have had legal issues in a few countries, most notably Belgium who even ended up forbidding it. But most countries accept it.
Actual gambling is the opposite, only a few countries allow their citizens to participate in such stuff online, and it often requires the service provider to pay a fee to the local Lottery company to be legal. (Switzerland for example is in this case)

restive vale
#

It's all new to me. Cool to see how it all unfolds though

paper brook
#

the law says

  • probability of each item in the loot box
  • purchase limit
  • cant encourage players to keep opening the loot boxes
dusk basin
#

In general I like the OP's proposal. I do think it should be free to access Leviathan and such though, but you would most likely do very badly in it as a f2p player. This at least gives you a glimpse of it without you feeling cut off just because you don't spend money, and it will also make it clear that you need a lot better illuvials to be competitive.