#IIP - XX: Dynamic Survival Mode

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steep panther
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Illuvium Improvement Proposal (IIP-XX): Dynamic Survival Mode

Abstract: This proposal addresses a significant exploit in Illuvium's Survival Mode. Players can share successful gameplay videos, allowing others to replicate their strategies and unfairly earn airdrop points. We propose making Survival Mode dynamic to prevent this, ensuring unique game setups for every player. Additionally, we will remove all Survival Mode milestones and any points earned in Season One to restore fairness. This IIP aims to maintain the integrity and competitive balance of the game.

Simple Summary: We propose making Survival Mode dynamic to address an exploit in Survival Mode that allows players to copy successful strategies from shared videos. This change will ensure unique game setups, preventing replication of the exact strategy. We will remove Survival Mode milestones and any points earned in Season One to maintain fairness.

Overview: We discovered that players can record and share videos of successful Survival Mode runs, enabling others to replicate these runs exactly and unfairly earn airdrop points. To counteract this, we will introduce a dynamic system in Survival Mode where each game setup is unique. This change will take some time to implement, so we will also remove Survival Mode milestones and any points earned in Season One to ensure fairness.

Rationale:

Exploit Discovery: The current system allows players to share successful gameplay videos, leading to unfair point accumulation.

Dynamic Game Setups: Introducing randomised elements to Survival Mode will prevent the exact replication of strategies.

Fairness: Removing milestones and points from Survival Mode in Season One will ensure that players who have used the exploit do not have an advantage over other players.

This proposal aligns with IIP-58-R, which emphasises the importance of a coherent and consistent airdrop structure. By addressing the exploit and ensuring fair distribution of rewards, we uphold the integrity and transparency of the airdrop campaign. Just as IIP-58-R ensures that reward structures cannot change mid-campaign without proper subperiods, this proposal ensures that the competitive balance is maintained by rectifying an exploit, thereby protecting the interests of legitimate players.

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My rational from the feedback channel discussing this IIP copied and pasted below: #1266828341286273114 message

Today further demonstrated the scale of this issue where a person can watch an influencer's video and easily make it to wave 40 within 1 hour with no skill.

My initial proposal(which would convert airdrop points to multiplier as mentioned in my post above) was discussed in IMC and by various members of the dev team team. Changing to the multiplier would take a LOT of back end work. I also believe there are constraints on those dev's time as they are still working on improving the other game modes.

With the being said, we get exciting news! They should be able to have randomly generated waves unique for each account at the start of the next season. Which would eliminate this issue and rewards can resume for survival.(The reward structure will be discussed later in this season)

I understand some may be frustrated by the time and effort they put to achieve this goal(trust me I spent half a day working on it also).

In the end, the current airdrop structure has led to paying customers deciding not to spend money until this is resolved. We should never have a blocker to for players who want to contribute to the game. This is the best path forward for the longevity of the project.

gloomy idol
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How would you balance that some people will have easier waves obviously ? (it's impossible to perfectly balance it) Which will lead to unfairness and frustration for people that some1 had way easier run

steep panther
storm moon
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It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, perhaps you get lucky and push to wave 40 1 every 20 times you play, and that's ok imo

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I like the idea

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The starting team probably has to be the same for everyone to avoid massive restarts untill you get the perfect comp

trail summit
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I give my 👍 because i think its terrible to have 1 million point achievable in a free mode that people can just copy each other

I think completely removing the reward from the player that achieve it is wrong though. I get that IMC say multiplier is hard to implement back end but why? Last season we had multipliers for wave 25 and 40

Is it because it need to be done manually as its a change for the pass?

Anyway, completely removing the reward sounds pretty bad but getting 1 million with no effort and opportunity for multi accounting is even more wrong so 👍

Btw that "fix" of random waves is not a good idea imo. We had this discussion around 2 years ago

If it becomes this way it removes the competition because "the 1st place just got lucky and i didnt"

Give multipliers or remove rewards for survival #wave, just bring back the real arena please Ethlizards_zlizgib

lusty verge
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<@&1107754780744487002>

heady haven
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I agree something needs to be done. But if the multiplier can't be done then i think full removal is far too harsh for the amount of time some people have out in. Reducing the points down to like 30k or something should surely be easier dev wise and still reward people for the time they put in, while not decimating the airdrop pool

finite crane
# steep panther Illuvium Improvement Proposal (IIP-XX): Dynamic Survival Mode Abstract: This pr...

I like the proposal in general, and i am one of those not spending because of the current f2p airdrop structure.
But also, wasn't survival intended to learn the game? Wouldn't it be easier for newcomers to learn the game while having a guide available on youtube and play survival simultaneously?

How is this an exploit?
Because people can watch youtube guides and therefore master the task?
Imo it is not an exploit, rather an oversight to rebalance the milestones.

I would also rather like to see a complete overhaul of the points given bei certain milestones.
This specific milestone isn't the only one needing rework.

shrewd prism
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excited to see dynamic survival in the future, thats gonna enhance this gamemode a lot i think. if done right, some players will have a happy time in there all day

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e.g. you can reroll your team once every hour

steep panther
keen mantle
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does the dynamic survival mode still giving out points or not?

wispy garden
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I agree with the problem of 1mil points for wave 40, which is an easy task due to the possible "exploit" of copying from others.
I´d also think 100k points for wave 30 is likely too high a number, as that can be repeated on multiply accounts multiple times a day depending on the waves of the day.

In a dynamic structure, this would be even easier, as people can just check which account has easy teams, it would require more skill than copying but higher waves are more possible on "every" day like patate mentioned with others just get lucky teams/easy enemy waves and climb to higher waves.

Entirely removing any amount of airdrop points from f2p activities isn´t something I´d directly agree with.
Milestones are similar to quests and goals that players have when starting to play Illuvium and offering them ones they can accomplish with time/skill over spending money has merit to it, as this can acquire new users and new paying users.
Further Airdrop Points aren´t simply a "rebate" for paying users, if you are a paying user, you get NFTs during your gameplay, you don´t get ones that are trending towards 0$ value like the ones from stage 0 travels.
I think this shouldn´t be forgotten. Airdrop points are on top of just playing the game.

The problem is the amount of points given to "easy"/low time investment and via multiple accounts repeatable tasks.

IMC has discussed here mentioned and further options, I believe @tiny dirge is currently finalizing details and options with Labs.

Something further that for example could maintain a small amount of points for f2p tasks, while keeping the majority of achievable points for paying users could be high multipliers, only achievable by paying users, reducing the portion that can be taken even with multi-acc efforts, rendering the multi-acc efforts potentially not worth the time anymore.

finite crane
keen mantle
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depends on how small is the points for F2P.
people can still do multi accounts

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with the survival mode points gone, they gonna move to doing T0 capture and craft.
the T0 craft spesifically can be scripted if we dont have anti cheat or a fix

wispy garden
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I´d also want to mention, I don´t think it is entirely fair to take away all the points by players who got wave 40, even with screenshots or videos for help many of them invested a relevant amount of time into it, under the current rules they were aware of. They could have played Overworld payed or free at that time.
To me that is similar to not wanting to severly punish (e.g. permanently ban) players using a bug/exploit in a game, when they might not have been aware that it is one at the time.

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We could argue most knew this wasn´t intended and it seems to easy to be true, but again reducing it to 0 also seems unfair.

inland ferry
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Imo, removing all points is over-compensation. People did spend time and effort to play the game mode and a small amount of points, along with completely banning accounts that registered and went straight to beat lvl 40 in arena (those are 100% exploiters) would be the fairest option for everyone.

Even if we bleed some of the airdrop to these tasks, removing all points just leads to bitterness and fuding the project on social media, further adding to the "nft games are scam" narrative. It was a design failure after all, and the project should take some responsibility for not fixing these glaringly unbalanced milestones in time.

And council members, PLEASE push for a revision of all milestones because this is not the only one flawed. Winning 5k arena matches is impossible, merging all stage 3 illuvials for 80k points is laughable, giving the same amount of points for crafting 25 T0 weapons than for crafting 3 T0 suits is... Not to mention the non-existing Zero milestones.

We did spend hundreds of work hours to craft a beautiful and well-working dashboard for the quests/milestones. Surely, we can find a few more hours to make those tasks fair for everyone.

keen mantle
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the team will improve the milestone/missions next
they are currently fixing other priorities

steep panther
steep panther
# steep panther My rational from the feedback channel discussing this IIP copied and pasted belo...

To @shrewd prism, @wispy garden , and @inland ferry I have already mention that a multiplier would have been nice, but not possible. If you have specific values you think are appropriate feel free to share and explain how that will work with multi-accounting.

I hear a lot of political talk from y'all and no votes. Are y'all supportive of this or do you have a better solution? Look I finished wave 40 also, so it sucks that I wasted time on it, but until another solution is provided we need to get this out asap or more players are going to waste their time on survival mode

shrewd prism
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I don't think my statement was "political talk" at all.

i agree that it would be good to see a solution that leaves players who have achieved it with a small amount of points. if the multiplier is not implementable

steep panther
shrewd prism
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I would suggest lowering the amount to a value that aligns with the other free-to-play milestones with a similar time commitment.

finite crane
steep panther
steep panther
inland ferry
inland ferry
finite crane
steep panther
inland ferry
shrewd prism
shrewd prism
steep panther
finite crane
# inland ferry I suppose we could get bogged down in discussing the details indefinitely, but t...

I absolutely agree this is a bad situation with the milestones atm, specifically this one.
But i feel we can't just overrule already passed proposals when we like to.
And if multiaccounting the same milestone over and over is actually legitimate according to team and the other factor is watching youtube guides, everything there is a guide on youtube is a potential exploit according to your definition.
i just don't wana see changing rewards/systems etc over and over again.
IIP-58r was approved for a very good reason.

inland ferry
steep panther
inland ferry
# finite crane I absolutely agree this is a bad situation with the milestones atm, specifically...

I hear your point but you also gotta consider the other side of the argument. This milestone is badly designed to begin with. And if we let people who don't spend a dime on the game get away with farming 1 million points on (lets say) 3 accounts that is taking money out of the pockets of all legitimate players who are grinding/spending a whole month to get 3 million points. The exploiters would be laughing all the way to the bank while legitimate players stop spending in the game seeing how they are getting shortchanged.

shrewd prism
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We have to take the fastest time as our measurement, as otherwise, it is exploitable again. If it is doable in 30 minutes with copy-paste waves, then the points should be roughly in that area. This, in turn, makes it punishing for people who put in 5/10/20 hours over multiple days to finally reach it.

This is why a multiplier would be the perfect solution for both sides. It would still be a big reward, as promised, but it couldn't be exploited by multi-accounting. Do we have a definite "no" from the team yet? Otherwise, I will get a definite answer on this before we break our heads over crunching numbers.

finite crane
wispy garden
# steep panther To <@941662729205329931>, <@242308279647207424> , and <@877353167896068117> I h...

I am not sure what I said that you interpreted as political talk. I informed everyone, including you, that IMC has already discussed various options, including what you suggest here, and that Kieran was checking back with Labs as we chat here.

I also noted that I am against removing points entirely, as there are benefits to having free-to-play accessible points, as I laid out. This isn't political, but rather a statement of arguments against your thesis that only paid actions should award points is being most beneficial for the DAO.

wanton thicket
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Check the pinned message for the proposal

fiery parcel
# wanton thicket Check the pinned message for the proposal

Dynamic Survival makes most sense, that 100% should be implemented.

Now, in terms of this season, so all survival points gets removed.
Does this mean there will still be survival points to be gained with the new survival mode added?
Or there will completely be no survival in season 1?

fiery parcel
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and when you say remove all milestions of survival, does this also include the daily/weekly mission?

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if so than definitely not, the only thing this should implement is the lvl 40 situation.

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i just dont want to see some grey area loophole nonsense to come out of this

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clearly the main concern is the lvl 40 conflicts.

Should Dynamic Survival be implemented? yes 100% i dont think there is any disagreement here.

The disagreements and conflicts come with the removal of points, keeping some points removing others, and so on

fiery parcel
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and from than on, implement the Dynamic Survival and change the points/reward for survival to whatever need be

candid hearth
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I dislike that people are getting 1 million points for doing nothing more than watching someone else's video and then playing the game.
I dislike it even more that many of those same people are making extra accounts and doing it over and over.

All that said I do feel for those who got these points if they are removed (well, except the multi-accounts). People were not told they weren't allowed to share the info or use it. If there is a bug to exploit, it just seems smart to use it really. If the team knew there was a bug and didn't want people using it, then having arena not available until it was fixed would have made more sense. People spent their time to get it, time that some of them may have used working on different airdrop points.

I think maybe some compensation should be given because some of those players did play in good faith.

I don't think that Wave 40 should be worth more than some of the other milestones that take just as much or more time plus money to complete.

I really like the idea of Dynamic Game Setups.

Maybe there just shouldn't be any huge amounts of points given away for any one thing.

fiery parcel
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removing all points will keep people unhappy regardless, lowering to reasonable amount for this season will make the unhappiness far less and seems more compromising/just.

keen mantle
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im uploading this to github

keen mantle
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IIP-63
@wanton thicket

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ok folks last chance.
ive been following this topic for the last days and losing sleep because of it. lets get it done.
the most ideal solution is multiplier, but its not possible atm.
i personally stopped spending because i knew F2P players can get much more points than me from survival.
i personally watched web3games video and cleared Wave 40.

can team share how many players have cleared wave 40 today? (the toxic deck)

now some folks are talking about non-zero points, fine
give the numbers that wont have multi accounts problem

otherwise, as caveman said, its just politics

i understand removing the points is such a painful way to, hey i want my 1m points too for free

but as a DAO we need to make tough decisions

thanks

tiny dirge
keen mantle
hallow bronze
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The team had a clear rule that multi-accounts have to be declared as such. That means you had to name your accounts Ligyron1, Ligyron2,...
It is 100% clear that these milestones are only meant to be cleared one time per person. Therefore, any account that exists to clear milestones a 2nd, 3rd and so on time is an exploit. That includes f2p tasks and paid task (a whale could start over after clearing the easy tasks). In my opinion this behavior is a clear violation of the existing rules and should cause all accounts of that person to be banned permanently. In regards of the dynamic survival mode I think people as well should only have one account that is eligible otherwise they could go over all accounts and look for the best rng seed.

In terms of declaring videos/guides an exploit, I have to say, that sounds wrong because guides, coaches, friends who find something out, should be fair game.
Obv. the real unfairness (aside from multi-accounts) lies just in between valuation of milestones for paying costumers vs milestones for f2p. I see this unfairness, but I am not sure if this is correctable retrospectively because of IIP-58 since I don't see any sort of exploit for yesterdays survival leaderboard (again, aside of multi-accounting). We talked about retrospectively changes during the holo-situation quite frequently and came to the conclusion that these changes should be avoided. TBH I hate to see IIP-58 being in the way in this regards. Maybe, it would be best to add a phrase that includes fairness over milestones in the terms like paid milestones should have higher value per hour than f2p milestones.

tiny dirge
# hallow bronze The team had a clear rule that multi-accounts have to be declared as such. That ...

Teaching someone how to play the game, and honing their skills so they can beat their own version of survival mode is totally okay, and encouraged.

Showing someone a video so they can mimic the exact steps to complete a milestone is considered an exploit. Again, it's not the video uploaders fault, or the guilds sharing it around, it is our fault (labs) for allowing this exploit to exist. But that doesn't change the fact that it is a way to exploit our airdrop system and it needs to be fixed and points invalidated.

fiery parcel
hallow bronze
fiery parcel
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again from my pov theres 2 options, remove EVERYONES points or keep EVERYONES points for this season.

Remove EVERYONES:
Implement Dynamic Survival and give the appropriate updated points/multiplier reward for anyone who completes thereafter.

Keep EVERYONES:
Give 100k-250k points to all who passed wave 40 survival for this season, and implement dynamic survival and give appropriate updated points/multiplier for next season
anything along these lines.

anything in between, picking and choosing who deseves it who doesnt becomes a mess.

steep panther
# wispy garden I am not sure what I said that you interpreted as political talk. I informed eve...

You still have not assigned a thumbs up or down on the proposal and not suggested a resolution.

Why is it that several community members had to bring this up and had to draft the iip?

Where we had to take the heat from all the airdrop farmers.

That is political talk to me. Just playing the mid field. Not trying to piss off anyone who want to extract points this way.

This was a roughly $3million allocation at the announcement of the airdrop campaign. Did the council not review the airdrop before hand? In a web2 company I think some heads would be rolling right now.

I would assume you with the most game knowledge would understand how this would be abused.

As for my "thesis" I was very supportive of a multiplier and belive rewards should be given out to leaderboard rankings as well. That was my initial proposal.

steep panther
fiery parcel
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can you guys actually stop acting like little children and think whats best for the game and not for yourselves

hallow bronze
steep panther
tiny dirge
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Sorry, it's our fault. It's not the communities fault.

fiery parcel
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fair, now someone please prioritize getting rangers/players in the sanctum mesa together where they can voice chat / engage, show off their skins, drones, etc.

this will implement a fun factor, people have fun, people spend money

wanton thicket
heady haven
fiery parcel
lone sinew
# tiny dirge Teaching someone how to play the game, and honing their skills so they can beat ...

Sorry if i made the situation worse. After finding out there were groups multi accounting and sharing it anyway (plus likely other creators streaming/showing it anyway) i decided I may as well upload it. Glad its going to be taken away, I thought it was way too many points from day one even if it couldnt be shared or multi accounted. Not sure if changing to a multiplier is still on the cards but I think thats a good idea

heady haven
fiery parcel
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okay so removing the points from everyone, what happens after?
is there no survival for this season? will dynamic survival be added for this or next season? etc

lone sinew
keen mantle
wispy garden
# heady haven Apparently it was discussed in the council meeting and it's too much dev work to...

I don´t like a multiplier even if possible, then it is a tedious task that everyone can do and should do, because it likely overall rewards them a lot of points (if meaningful one, if not meaningful one almost the same as removing it entirely for the people who do far more than f2p or low spender available things) and people who can´t play on the day or few days it is even possible can´t even get it. At that point just removing any points might be better user experience instead of making them want a small amount, likely not meannigfull in the end, for annoying work.

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Another Thing to this IIP:
Dynamic Que if made as IIP should be a GFP, not an IIP.
The IIP to remove points from survival and the introduction of a new version for the survival game mode are 2 separate things, especially if survival is supposed to not award points even if this change to dynamic que is made.

lone sinew
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id suggest rewards for gauntlet rather than a different survival mode

wispy garden
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The Main Problem, that needs to be fixed on these rewards, is multi-acc farming of f2p activities.
Once we have a good solution to that I´d like Gauntlet rewards as well.

lone sinew
neon nebula
solar dock
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Only thing I see here is let's protect the whales as in every crypto game.

dapper portal
neon nebula
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But if the team makes a mistake, they still need to remain accountable to it. And giving 1m points for wave 40 is simply a bad call, cant attack people who played the game idk

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I am all over the place with this one

shrewd prism
# wispy garden I don´t like a multiplier even if possible, then it is a tedious task that every...

At this point, I agree with Viper's notion here. It seems the best way to get this done as soon as possible is to remove them altogether. Mistakes were made, and this will be painful for many community members. However, in the end, it is a very positive change for every single-account airdrop participant. Anyone who earned a million points will, after the change, have a greater allocation of the airdrop rewards on average because there won't be 1,000+ multi-accounts extracting money through this exploit.

fringe gyro
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Why not divide 1 million points by the number of first places?
If there are 100 first-place finishers, each will receive 10,000 points.
If only one person achieves it, that person will get 1 million points.
There's also the issue of multiple accounts, but you can't earn as much because the points are diluted.
And just in time for the next season!
I agree with Caveman's idea, but if it takes time to make it, you need to rethink your point
Can we attract users with 30,000 points for clearing wave 40?

shrewd prism
solar dock
shrewd prism
shrewd prism
# shrewd prism i like the idea of making it a 1 million dollar pot per day, divided into everyo...

also for dynamic survival this would be a very good solution how to award points. considering vipers notion here about dynamic with the same old 1 million reward:

In a dynamic structure, this would be even easier, as people can just check which account has easy teams, it would require more skill than copying but higher waves are more possible on "every" day like patate mentioned with others just get lucky teams/easy enemy waves and climb to higher waves.

gloomy idol
shrewd prism
gloomy idol
wispy garden
fringe gyro
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You don't have to finish in WAVE 40, you could do WAVE 100
In that case, there will always be a difference
You may give out points for 1st to 10th place

gloomy idol
gloomy idol
# tiny dirge We can't figure that out so unfortunately we need to invalidate all points for s...

So you're saying all the effort even by legit players will be completely wiped out? What about leaderboard placement? If i got 1st place twice, even cleared w50 yesterday and all that by mastering team building and positioning for tens of hours my efforts will turn into ... nothing? Yeah ofc abusers should be banned, i think it's not hard to identify people that abused it. And about 1mil - just switch it to multiplier or sth

image.png
hushed ridge
keen mantle
novel nebula
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My only question that will probably not be answered is:

Illuvium made a mistake and we are now fixing it by deleting points from everyone. Why was that impossible to do a month ago when we had similar situation (lottery instead of youtube videos)?

gloomy idol
keen mantle
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@novel nebula this IIP is proposing that replicating survival run by watching a video is an exploit

keen mantle
novel nebula
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I’m talking about dark holo lottery from preseason when it was impossible to revert anything and fix the mistake.

keen mantle
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it was not impossible

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we just didnt pass an IIP to change it

dapper portal
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Why don't remove this together?

image.png
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it's possible make 5+ accounts of this quest in a day

keen mantle
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yea

queen trail
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sorry forgot this was auto set not in genreal. here is my feed back

for ranked/milestones/etc:
I say just use your own illuvials, and random battles. this will do at least two things:

  1. cant make a bot to just place your guys in the right spots to get ot
  2. will force grinding of not just getting illuvials in OW, but place can level up those mons to sell for a much higher eth price.

but since some people did not exploit the project there should be a 50/50 where points can be reallocated somehow.

vs

Casual, no points or miles stones. most for fun and training. you can use whoever is that week/month's pre-made decks are.

lone sinew
# dapper portal Why don't remove this together?

I think because this is a relatively small amount of points and quite time consuming. I think its a good idea to keep some free to play airdrop points even if you can multi account. More about balance im guessing, 1 mil for something that, on the right day, can take 1 hour if you have been given the blueprint

solar dock
wispy garden
lone sinew
wispy garden
shrewd prism
lone sinew
sullen slate
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For what are we discussing ? Council already voted right ?

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Just discovering now the IIP but get approved.

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Sorry just noob with gouvernance. Seems there are 3-4 different thread to speak about the same things

crystal wigeon
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This topic is being discussed over 3 or 4 threads and in 2 different proposals. Theres a lot of inputs to take in but after reading and talking to people both in council (as it was a topic of recent discussion) and with Labs, I came to this conclusion:

Both https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1267866392057872466 and https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1268323065167872183 is in the right direction but ultimately doesnt address the core issue or even it does, it failed to address consequences which may have business impact to the game.

Core Issue/s:

  • Current Airdrop for F2P is prone for abuse or exploit which ultimately dilutes the rewards
  • Current Airdrop for F2P point rewards are disproportionate and incentives playing F2P than Paid
  • Current Survival Mode opens it up to abuse as people can copy day strats to reach milestones

https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1267866392057872466 introduces Dynamic Survival Mode to combat 'copying' of strats. This was already shared by Labs to IMC as a solution they are working on. Personally, I dont see a need for a proposal to be passed as this is an on-going solution being implemented by Labs without need for governance intervention.

The 2nd part of the proposal deals with changing the F2P milestones prospectively and removing all earned milestone points retroactively. While, I see some rationale about this, I dont believe this is the correct way to go about it. This too sweeping and even penalizes those who may have achieved and earned the points fairly. At the same time, I also recognize that there is a level of time commitment and skill in achieving this milestone/s and a complete wipe is not equitable. By wiping out F2P milestones even prospectively, we run the risk of lowering our DAU/MAU and lessen the possibility of converting F2P to Paid.

In the other proposal: https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1268323065167872183, what is being proposed is to adjust the milestone points as how Labs saw fit. While this has merit as well, again it over simplifies the solution without taking into consideration the consequences. By lowering the points, it does not fully address the core issue that F2P milestone can be multi-accounted and eventually dilutes the total airdrop rewards, hence, taking away from paid.

Splitting the Reward Pools

What I would recommend as revisions to both is combining the two solutions and adding another layer by splitting the pools to Paid and F2P. By splitting the pools, you already address one of the major complaints with F2P milestones which is multi-accounting. It wouldnt matter how many accounts are being made to farm the milestones since it will only affect the distribution rewards coming out of the F2P pool. Multi-accounting will only dilute each other while keeping the Paid pool unaffected and rightfully rewarding those who are contributing to the Illuvium ecosystem.

I also agree that we need to address retroactively the milestones earned by F2P players, but I do not agree in completely wiping them. This is where I pull the solution from Paz's proposal. We reduce the points earned proportionally and apply it both retroactively and prospectively. In doing so, you do not disregard the time and effort made by those who achieved but at the same time, because of the pool splitting, you are also not directly affecting the rewards of the Paid pool.

hallow remnant
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fighting for multiacc is pretty easy. any acc created on that day with no activity before and after is just ban.

shrewd prism
# crystal wigeon This topic is being discussed over 3 or 4 threads and in 2 different proposals. ...

I like where your suggestion is going, though I think splitting the pool would again fall under too much dev work. If we were able to assign enough dev work to this problem, we could just change it to be a multiplier, which would be the best solution for both sides. I know @wispy garden has been saying that it's not ideal either because then this task becomes a "must do" for everyone because you need the multiplier, but it fixes the issue with multi-accounting these points pretty well, as well as rewarding single-account players.

"Multi-accounting will only dilute each other while keeping the Paid pool unaffected and rightfully rewarding those who are contributing to the Illuvium ecosystem." This seems unfair to legitimate single-account free-to-play players. I know they are not as important as paid customers, but we definitely have to cater to them as well since they are the heart of the onboarding process. I wouldn't want to find a solution where thousands of accounts with their only activity being level 40 milestone, can extract value from honest players, even if it's "just" free-to-play players. That being said, since you propose the split on top of the points reduction, it seems like another step in the right direction, not perfect yet, but just being able to save paid customers already is a good step.

I think we should talk to the labs to see if it is feasible.

sullen slate
# shrewd prism I like where your suggestion is going, though I think splitting the pool would a...

If the problem is that multiplier force people to do it. And points are granted only to paytoplay. Why not introduce a pay (fuel) to start in competitive. And free in training ? And let points instead of multiplier for this mode.
For sure the randomness of run have to be implemented.
But if there are daily quest that bring point balanced in the cost from OW. Could be a better way to bring it in the table.

wispy garden
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Survival is meant as an onboarding tool for players, it would still be there for free in training, but I am not sure if adding a cost to competitive without any rewards earned would be great.
At the moment of adding a cost, I believe it should be similar to how drafts in some online card-games work, where you pay X to enter and depending on how well you do get payed out ingame currency or rewards. The difficult part there would be, that on average it should prob be a net negative for most players, not a net positive in fuel terms, so players outside of highly skilled ones can´t go infinite. At that point maybe only highly skilled ones would play and it would be an infinite assets generation option.
So in my opinion this would have to be something like Pay X Fuel, at the end of the day the pool of payed fuel is getting distributed to the participants based on placement after deducting some % so that there was fuel burned, skilled or lucky players have more, unskilled or unlucky ones less.

fiery parcel
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@wispy garden @shrewd prism did you guys actually deny Dynamic Survival Mode? lol... you guys okay?

wispy garden
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Paz is also an ICC Member, he can´t approve or deny this at the IMC level, I am not sure if anyone told you differently, or why you´d assume this.
He approved it at the ICC level btw.

fiery parcel
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yeah giving brand new accounts who just farmed wave 40 and moved on is a no brainer to not reward for exploit, etc.
theyre not even Free to Play, theyre just here to exploit farm and bounce.
sorry, but prioritize players who actually put time and money instead of exploiters.

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and if anyone is against this here, you should never be on council.

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multiplier is an ideal way to go as it actually rewards players who put time in and not just one time exploited