#Remove Ergon Energy

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mossy inlet
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TLDR: The monetization model is flawed. Limiting Players by Ergon Energy is like getting a whole pack of cards where you can only keep a fracture of them while the rest is burned together with the money you just spent.

First of all I don't want to talk about prices in the game. I want to gather feedback and tell my experience with the current pricing structure and how it negatively impacts the player. For now I am pretty sure removing the 4000 ergon energy per travel will make the gaming experience alot better. But I don't think that this is the ultimate solution to fix the monetization of the game.

I played multiple hours since release and quickly realized that the pricing does not work. I traveled to all stages and played around with how it feels to play the game. The result was that I could not enjoy my runs and here is why:
A single run is quite short (like 15 - 30 min). When I pay for that I want to be able to experience the whole region and get everything I payed for. The reality however is that I just payed the entrance fee and unlocked the feature to spend more money. Let's see what I can do in my run and how removing the limit of 400 Ergon energy could help with that

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1. Plants
Plants have low value. Consumables are totally worthless (not tradable) and dedicated players don't need them in their fights. Only a low amount of essences is needed compared to ores for crafting. So after paying for traveling plants give the least value because at least 50% of the items you get are worth nothing. The rest of the essences will accumulate in your inventory where you will never use them (from my experience with crafting everything in PB)

2. Ores
The ore distribution has some RNG in it which means you will probably get some ores you don't need while others will limit you. Overall ores have value. You can create ingots/items out of them. Ores aren't too bad and a player could focus on farming them to justify the price for that run.

3. Illuvials
This is by far the biggest problem. In every stage 2/3 travel I had to force myself to not capture specific Illuvials I see in the OW because I would straight up lose money. Even holo Illuvials that should feel exiting are being ignored by me if there price tag isn't high enough. So instead of catching that holo atlas in Stage 3 I think to myself that worthless Illuvial can be captured way cheaper in stage 1. Let's better shoot some rocks. This almost makes it mandatory to open up the marketplace on 2. screen to check which Illuvials are worth catching and which ones are absolut trash.
This hurts alot. It reduces the value of Illuvials to just a number (price) instead of giving Illuvials value based on the art, personal preferences or strength/level. As a player I want to build a connection to the creatures I see and not just look at numbers running around.

A player should be able to pay for a single run and enjoy all of it. You pay, go in and enjoy everything you find regardless of how valuable it might be (based on price).
I think an easy fix would be to remove the ergon energy. Easy because there shouldn't be many adjustments that needs to be made to make it work.

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The ergon energy mechanic has absolutely no utility in the game. The only thing why it is there is to limit the player and sell a solution to it instead of removing that barrier entirely. So what would be the results of removing it? Aren't we all doomed because our assets would be worthless? I don't think so

1. Plants
It would greatly benefit consumables. It won't cost anything to shoot them. So players can collect as many as they want. Just reduce the essence spawns to balance that. To prevent a spam of consumables and make encounter too easy the team could add a "capture energy modifier" for using no consumables in the whole encounter. That's just an example but it would reward skilled players with additional capture tries for using as less consumbales as possible.

2. Ores
This is an easy one too. Ores have no inherent value. They are totally worthless in your inventory. This means it won't be an issue if you can extract thousands of ores for cheap. The value gets added on crafting ingots/items. This means you have to spend solon to give any value to the ores. So the solon cost can balance that you have alot of ores in your inventory. The team could also up the number of ores needed for items. And the player is still limited by number of ore deposits in a single travel. This can also be used to limit ores/travel. And ore duplication drone upgrades would still be a thing while cost upgrades would just be removed.
For shards and gems it can also be adjusted by reducing the number of yellow/green ore deposits in a single run.

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3. Illuvial
This might be the hardest part to balance. But it should still be possible. With ergon energy everybody enters a region and tries to get the highest tier/stage Illuvial they found. Even during the crazy spawn rates of pre season 1 I rarely felt limited by ergon energy. And with the drastically reduced spawns now ergon energy will never be the limiting factor that prevents you from getting the best Illuvials in that run. This means removing ergon energy won't inflate the economy with rare Illuvials because you try to catch them anyway.
It might look a little different for low tier Illuvials. With ergon energy players probably won't capture all the T1S1 running around. Without ergon energy it is easy to get 10x or 20x the amount of T1 in a run.
What could be the solution to that? The free market. Player still have to pay on average a little more than 1 common shard for those low tier Illuvials. So worst case is that they are worth the same amount as the T1 shards. Which will probably the case anyway it will just happen faster. Even now on day 2 after launch T1S1 is only worth 2x the T1 shard. And players will simply stop catching them when the shard isn't worth it.

Another part of the balancing could be to go back to catching only the Illuvial you see in OW instead of 3. This will reduce the supply of Illuvials by 66% in a run while still keeping the density in OW. This would also make sense since when OW combat is introduced it would feel weird to fight a single Illuvial in the OW and suddenly be able to capture 2 more you never saw before.
Spawn rates can be adjusted too. But I wouldn't touch that too easily because then we might be back to seeing only T1 again in OW

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After removing the ergon energy mechanic a player simply pays the travel fee and can get everything that spawned during 1 run. Imo this won't devalue the assets. It will effect that assets reach the floor price faster than it does now. But if Illuvium is able to add utility to Illuvials then the Illuvial prices will get stable. And if Illuvium can't achieve that we are f*ked anyway. A limiting mechanic like ergon energy only delays the inevitable asset price decrease as long as possible and should not be needed to artificially charge more money from its players.

We can't forget that IZ is live now and as soon as skins can be created players will have a hard time to burn an Illuvial that are as expensive as now. But with more accessible Illuvials the skin economy will get a way better start and might create way more volume.

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@soft scaffold @urban plover There is quite some negative feedback regarding pricing right now. While I am sure that you are working to address that I hope we can get a healthy discussion in here and you can get some value out of the players input. This is my contribution to it but I am also open to other solutions. I just hope that some adjustments are made soon. Otherwise early players might get punished by paying too much

soft scaffold
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So you would prefer you go in and there are like…20 things total in the region? Or do you want to keep the hundreds and have everything be worth so much less?

mossy inlet
# soft scaffold So you would prefer you go in and there are like…20 things total in the region? ...

Keep the hundreds.
Only 1 illuvial per encounter = already 66% less Illuvials in a region, but the same amount in OW so it doesn't feel empty

Keep the plants. Consumables are worthless (can't be traded) and reduce the chance of essences

Keep the ores. Change the distribution. Something like 80% white ores, 10% gems and 10% shards. This ensures you can't get more gems/shards out of it than now (if the numbers are adjusted accordingly).
Ores are worthless (can't be traded). They get their value from being forged to ingots/items. So the Solon cost basically determines the value of the item. Ores needed for the items could be raised too

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This is just a quick and dirty solution and can be fine tuned for sure. But to me it doesn't look bad as a first idea

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After some weeks players will probably ignore most low tier Illuvials anyway and don't catch them even if they could and just focus on the team they want to build or rare stuff. And without ergon we don't mint more rare Illuvials than before. So it could only impact low tiers until a floor is found

mossy inlet
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So worst case stage 1 Illuvials value = shard value.

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But then we still have holos/dh that have way higher value. Giving casual players a cheap entry and collectors would still go for holos/dh. Even right now I ignore most stage 1 that aren't holo because holos are so common.

kindred harness
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I agree. Can maybe also change it so an encounter that runs away is lost forever in that case instead of returning on another side of the map

scarlet sorrel
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Harvesting cost need to go down

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Lazurite needs to be fixed, sometimes it does not give shards.
Need to guarantee at least one resplendent from shooting all the lazurites

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Hyperion cost to cure shards need to go down, 1200 hyperion to craft a T5 shard zomg

hoary kettle
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That would have a hughe impact if anyone can extract the 100% of the stage. Sorry but I really like having a limit, it makes me making some choices for the run (I can go full hunting, go full mining, go full harvesting...) and makes the run more dynamic. I would spend hours in a run if no limit to collect everything and I would feel bad when abandon it without everything collected.
That said, I would like to see more differences btw tiers, having all of them with the same energy cost and same ergon limit is more boring. I would give extra bonuses for T3 somehow, and I def decrease the harvesting cost because I hate expending as much as in ores. But that would be a different discussion

mossy inlet
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Green ores should guarantee shards. Then their number in a run can be reduced
Yellow ores guarantee gems. Then you can target them if you need them

mossy inlet
# hoary kettle That would have a hughe impact if anyone can extract the 100% of the stage. Sorr...

I understand your point. I still think we don't need Ergon energy.

Plants: Nobody will ever do harvesting runs. If you check the market right now you get T5 essence for 3 - 5$. I tried getting them in a stage 3 run and did multiple runs without a single one. So I just bought them of the market which is way cheaper than the cost for 1 run. So without the ergon energy you will only ever shoot plants to get consumables while you get essences as a bonus. I don't think it is realistic that a player crafts very expensive harvesting gear considering the fact that you don't need many essences at all to craft the best gear. So you won't feel bad that you don't harvest 100% of the plants in a run because you have enough essences after a few runs anyway.

Ores: Crafting gear is always limited by a single ore. Your inventory is full of ores you don't need while you try to get a single one to finish the craft. So when ergon energy is removed the team could make high tier ores "mega deposit only". This means you will stop shooting normal ores at some point and look for mega deposits only to finish your craft. So you won't feel bad that you did not clear 100% of the deposits because you don't need all the worthless ores anymore.

Illuvials: That is a more complicated point. But considering the fact that every Illuvial costs a shard players won't catch Illuvials anymore if they are cheaper than the shard and look for rare stuff only.

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So I think the complete opposite of you. Removing ergon energy will give the player alot more freedom to decide what they want to get out of the run. While with ergon energy players are always limited to shoot only the rare stuff and not the stuff they want.

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If a player wants to grind high stages he now has to decide if he wants to burn money to go for consumables to beat the higher stages or if he wants to get value out of a run by going for ores/Illuvials.

If a player does higher stages runs he always has to open secondary market to check if the Illuvial is worth catching while calculating travel cost + shard cost. Without ergon energy players can catch their favourite Illuvials and can still go for rare stuff. And the only thing that would have been calculated by a player is the shard cost which is way easier and less complicated.

lofty widget
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I like the system as it is for the same reasons stayord mentioned. maybe reduce the cost of ergon energy for activities and less rng for mining would be nice. But i wouldnt want to feel like I need to clear the whole map or I'm wasting resources, that would not be fun at all. I dont wanna run around the entire mapping looking for that last mine or plant just to get my moneys worth, no thanks.

mossy inlet
unreal ember
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i think at least doubling the energy would be massively beneficial. The mastery points are already doubled to 1000, why not follow suit with Ergon energy?

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i dont think removing it entirely is viable for market or the overall health of the game.

livid silo
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I liked it way more like it was previously where you spend energy per encounter instead of each individual illuvial captured.

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Not sure I like the idea of removing the ergon energy entirely though...

normal pine
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We Need MORE scarcity and Rarity this proposal creates less of it. I think this is a move in the wrong direction. It would undermine the faith in the game and teh fact that anything will ever have actual value

livid silo
mossy inlet
# normal pine We Need MORE scarcity and Rarity this proposal creates less of it. I think this ...

Where does the proposal create less rarity? The rarity is determined by spawn rates and not how much you can catch. If you enter a region you always catch the most rare Illuvials. Ergon energy will never be a limiting factor to that.
Gems/Shards can be adjusted by spawning less gem/shard deposit. All other ores are absolutely worthless because you are almost always limited by a single high tier ore while your inventory is full of ores you can't sell (until you get that valuable oreto craft an ingot). So shooting all rocks in a region will just give you more ores you don't need. The ore distribution can be adjusted to that. Or what I would prefer is that high tier ores are in mega deposits only. This would remove the need to always clear the full map once you have enough low tier ores. Go in a region, explore to find mega deposit, capture some Illuvials and leave

mossy inlet
# livid silo holos are so common I wonder who even catches non-holos... If it continues like ...

Yes, with the current prices and the limit of ergon energy I really thought about capturing only holos and dark holos. Holos are so common you can almost ignore regular illuvials. And common Illuvials are worth nothing.

My thought process is that every action in Illuvium costs money. So we already have a floor price for everything (fuel cost). I don't see any benefit in another limit like ergon energy which makes things only more complicated. If we can't create demand for illuvials the ergon energy won't prevent us from hitting the floor price of common illuvials. And for the rare Illuvials nothing changes because with or without ergon energy a player will always capture the most rare Illuvials in a run. This only changes if the ergon energy gets drastically removed that you really have to choose which Illuvial to capture. But I don't think that is a good idea.

livid silo
mossy inlet
echo osprey
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I agree that current system is no fun at all. Choosing between resources and illuvials is the worst part - they at least need to have separate “energy”. I think it is fine that you have some limitations in what to catch, let’s say you only can catch 7 illuvials per run, this may depend on stage (the more you pay, the more you can get back). For resources it’s ok to keep current system but drop should be better balanced and I would prefer to see ores and consumables as nfts, not sure why they are not. Terrible random of ore drop will than be balanced by selling what you don’t need and buying what you need

harsh wagon
# mossy inlet I guess that's the drawback of having 2 types of holos. 1 of them will always be...

Too common for what? I haven't seen any perfect stat holos, let alone dark holos. Even finding top 90% stat non-holos is pretty rare.

Just need more reasons to want and use those Illuvials, and to care about their stats. I don't think slashing supply is the answer. Practically speaking, most players want ~$20-$30 of Illuvials for their copy paste OW team. That's not going to be enough demand to support people who want to do 10 or 20 or 100 paid OW runs.

I'd be so much more inclined to increase demand than to play around with supply.

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Some of those systems are already in the game, like Arena, or cosmetically in Gauntlet, or for a Leviathan type Gauntlet. But there are absolutely more or other ways to make owning more desirable for gameplay reasons.

mossy inlet
# echo osprey I agree that current system is no fun at all. Choosing between resources and ill...

This could work too. But I would prefer a simple solution and think introducing even more parameter (like different energy bars) makes it very complicated and not fun at all. What's the point of playing the game if the game already decides for me what I can do and what not? I want some freedom. And if I pay for a run I want to be able to do what I want and not just do what the game wants me to do

Ores and consumables are no NFTs because that would put alot of load on the blockchain. The blockchain is barley able to handle a single craft. So we better don't mint too much 😂

harsh wagon
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Being able to buy 10-packs of consumables would be very appreciated for baddies like me lol - Would be too much for all of them to be NFTs, but if they could be packaged and sold that would be pretty good.

echo osprey
unreal ember
echo osprey
mossy inlet
# harsh wagon Too common for what? I haven't seen any perfect stat holos, let alone dark holos...

I am with you. We should find ways to create more demand. That's why I think artificially limiting supply by a mechanic like Ergon energy is bad and won't have any effect in the long run anyway if there will be no demand for Illuvials.
It only negatively impacts players. I already feel bad when I can't capture my favorite Illuvial because the market price is too low to justify a catch. I either feel bad for letting it go or I feel bad after capturing it because I just burned money.
Right now Illuvials are only running numbers. Either the number is high enough to chase it or it's not. But Illuvials should be creatures a player wants to collect based on the art/stats/finish. If I pay for a whole run, then I want to enjoy the whole run

livid silo
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if we want to increase demand we either implement burning mechanisms or build more games

harsh wagon
mossy inlet
# echo osprey Right now you pay to choose 6 illuvials from the map. Would you like to pay more...

The problem is I pay to pick the best 6 Illuvials on the map. I can't really choose which ones I want to capture because it would be stupid to pay for a run and don't collect the most valuable stuff.
But I want to really choose what to catch. If there is an atlas in stage 3 I want to take it. I will never take it if I can only "choose" max 6. And I won't pay a premium to get an additional atlas in stage 3.

echo osprey
harsh wagon
# livid silo Blickter they are too common. It's pretty obvious now. And it's taking away from...

I'll ask again, and I'm being serious, too common for what?

When people are primarily concerned with getting 2 dust Illuvials and some burners to make their OW team functional for basically every encounter, that's pretty much how many Illuvials you get in two runs.

As a result of not wanting to own more than that team, everything else is evaluated at market price, and it makes sense for people to chase holos. I genuinely think it would be a worse scenario to make LESS holos, and have people entering S3 runs with no holos available. I've had runs where there was 1 holo in a S3 run. It's not like you fill your bags with holos every run, there are usually some winqs and some vermilias, and occasionally something rarer.

echo osprey
echo osprey
livid silo
harsh wagon
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I dunno, maybe my 30-40 runs have been outliers, I've never left a run with nothing but holos. If I'm focused on capturing, I always have to make decisions about what I'm gonna get. I genuinely think that's a good thing, we just need better incentives to be focused on specific things you enjoy playing.

Like, I capture every Squizz I can, because I want a perfect stat Squizz. I like shock, I like his omega and the overall theme. That doesn't really matter a ton within the context of OW gameplay now, but it absolutely could. There's some depth behind the stat system that isn't currently being utilized by most of the playerbase, and it could be, there just need to be gameplay reasons to do so.

echo osprey
mossy inlet
# harsh wagon It does take all the decisions away from you as a player to be able to get every...

Would you really capture every single Illuvial in every run? You would still pay additional money for that because you waste shards by doing so.

I understand the need for making decisions in a run. It would be boring to go in, get everything and go out. But shouldn't that be fixed by giving OW more different tasks to do? I mean by giving you more choices instead of less? Right now a player pays money, enters a region and the game tells you "Look at what you could get". And as soon as you start to collect it you get kicked out and have to pay again.

I think we don't have a real choice by going into a region now. It will always be capture most rare Illuvials, shoot ores/plants with remaining energy and leave.

harsh wagon
# livid silo for rarity sake... Right now there's almost the same number of holos and non hol...

To put a finer point on what I'm trying to get at - You couldn't conceivably nerf supply to a point where demand outpaces it currently, because to be optimal for OW gameplay, you're after your team of exactly 8 Illuvials. It would be kind of foolish to even try, since you can capture 6 Illuvials in a run. If you wanted 100 run longevity, or 1000 run longevity, you'd need to be getting 0.01 Illuvials per run, because that's where the demand is at.

harsh wagon
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I'm also not playing from a "I must make profit every run" standpoint though. I'll be optimal when I can, but if I spend 20 cents extra to have a shot at rolling a high stat Illuvials I can play with, that's worth it to me.

mossy inlet
livid silo
# harsh wagon To put a finer point on what I'm trying to get at - You couldn't conceivably ner...

I don't think I made my point come across. It's not about demand outpacing supply. It's about balance of rarity. Right now there's roughly the same number of holos as there are non-holos, can we really call holos rare? This got even more exacerbated by spending energy per capture instead of per encounter. If it was reverted to its previous state to pay per encounter it would help mitigate this since you would chase the holo but also end up catching non-holos with the remaining encounter energy.

echo osprey
harsh wagon
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Also creates a tighter stability margin if you do want the other stuff, which is exciting.

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Unless you roll 32% crit with crit aug into rogues, then you lose. Or I do, anyway.

livid silo
mossy inlet
# harsh wagon I dunno, maybe my 30-40 runs have been outliers, I've never left a run with noth...

And that decisions will still be there. They can even get more. If you can choose from every Iluvial on the map and not just the best 6 then you could try to get a meme team, an off meta team, pure lynx team or many other teams you can think of without having to worry that you have to pay extra for such teams. You just pick them up on your regular run if they are there and carry on to the next run if not.

The hunt for perfect stats Illuvial could even get better. Then players might suddenly try to get the perfect T1 illuvial and find new OP combos for leviathan. While with the current limit the team copy meta will be the dominant one where very less people might pay a premium to try something different

unreal ember
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I'd still make the argument for at least more Ergon energy. 1.5 to 2x. The Mastery Points were doubled so you can weasel in Armor and Weapons.

harsh wagon
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Capture the most +ev thing available, then the next, then the next, stop when the thing isn't profitable (which currently will be some of the Illuvials)

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Or when out of energy.

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But fundamentally the same idea in each system.

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I guess I'm just not convinced that being obligated to get everything that's currently profitable is better than leaving some things behind. I'm not too keen on the idea of having to scour the map for every last plant and rock, I'd prefer to seek out the bigguns and then move on.

mossy inlet
harsh wagon
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Yeah that's fair, the prices are still steep since IL:Z hasn't caught up. But if I look at them as ~50% of the rail values, I think they are fine honestly. People should be able to get everything for a collection, if they have a reason to, without breaking the bank.

mossy inlet
harsh wagon
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I've crafted a LOT, you need numerically more ores but essences aren't trivial. So I'd disagree with that. Weapons/armor also have stat distributions and getting perfect ones is also not trivial.

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Not sure exactly how the math works behind the scenes, but 3 independent rolls from 1-6 with no weighting for each of the stats would be 216 rolls to get a perfect one.

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If gear matters, you'd never leave anything behind.

mossy inlet
# harsh wagon I've crafted a LOT, you need numerically more ores but essences aren't trivial. ...

I forgot about the weapon armor stat distribution. This was just my first idea. I still think that it is not impossible to come up with a solution to fix that.

The mega deposit is a good example of that. If we get to a point where you don't have to shoot every ore and only look for mega deposits while shooting some ores on the side then I think that would be a good solution. Maybe something similar is possible for essences.

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I would also be fine if we can keep the ergon energy but change the mechanic that it doesn't have the limiting factors in decision making that it has now

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The main problem I have is that only utility of ergon energy is limiting the supply. And it does it in such a way that the gameplay is negatively affected.

harsh wagon
mossy inlet
livid silo
fervent prairie
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the AUTO-SCAN needs to be removed, thats the most important thing

normal pine
# fervent prairie the AUTO-SCAN needs to be removed, thats the most important thing

1000% Percent Right Auto Scan allowed Whales to outfarm the Farmers who would have driven the markets, Whales had no reason to buy stuff from market to save time becuase the game sold a time saved that allowed them to get world first. Taking the whales out of the market meant that farmers had no income to recycle and keep the game going. If a farmer spending maybe 50 usd a month in the game can sell there stuff for a decent amount they will put it back into the game. over and over again. But if the whales just spend the money into the Rev Share program it gets locked up and taken out of the eco system till its paid back to the whales holding the most ILV. Its bad for our ecnomy take it out and force whales to get there time savings by buying stuff off the market not paying into rev share

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if they want to keep Auto Scan feature in the game then they need to disable it for the first month of every new set and only allow it after the bonding curve is fully set in and all world first have been set

brisk crane
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Auto scan function trade money for time. It doesn't increase whales' edge much. Or u can even argue in some cases, decrease their profitable margin. But from a peasant standpoint (me), I understand why a lot of players don't like it

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How about a timer for autos can function? Would that be a middle ground for both sides?

livid silo
soft scaffold
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Sorry I've been quite busy. I just want to get a gague on what people are saying.

In Pokemon you get a pack of cards with 10 things. If we want to have 100s of things, and you can collect all of them, there would be a massive change in the rarities of things you find. Basically, most of the stuff would have to be the really cheap things.

Now, later on we are adding some things to make the regions more fun to be in, but if we really want to make it exactly like opening cards, then how many things could we possibly give before it gets 'all the same'.

echo osprey
# soft scaffold Sorry I've been quite busy. I just want to get a gague on what people are saying...

I've started a separate thread with proposal that possibly may improve what OP is asking here without affecting rarity (or at least it may be balanced easily comparing to current approach). https://discord.com/channels/760344898200666112/1267401157521833996
Short summary: Stage run will cost less but will only give digital assets -> No more energy so player can collect as many digital things as he want -> To mint NFTs from digitals player will need to spent fuel or he may use them for craft (with fuel like it works for ore/ingots right now)

mossy inlet
# soft scaffold Sorry I've been quite busy. I just want to get a gague on what people are saying...

I get what you are saying and I am aware why the Ergon energy is there. It is either there is a limit how much we can get out of the 100 things or the spawn rates are nerfed to a point where it is no fun anymore but we could get everything.
The problem I have is that the ergon energy does not only limit the value that can be extracted (which is fine) but it limits the gameplay too much. The player should be able to choose what he wants out of the 100 things. But he has to choose what is most valuable in high stage runs.
My approach (removing it at all) might be on the other side of the extreme and be too much too.

Is it possible that we find a middle ground here where ergon energy still limits the player but players get more freedom what to do?
I am thinking about making ergon energy more dynamic based on the action you do and not a flat number. What I can think of now is something like this:

Harvesting plants: 50 energy
Consumables are more of a QoL for fight and have no value. I think plants don't have the same value as ores and players should be able to go for consumables without having to worry that they use up all heir energy

Harvesting ores: 100 energy

Capturing Illuvials: MP*10 energy
Ergon energy affects Illuvials the most. A player has to go for most valuable Illuvials in every run. The only choice left is "Do I get the most valuable Illuvial or do I get my favorite Illuvials and waste money". This doesn't feel great. An Ergon Energy cost based on MP would also be more consistent. The cost of capturing Illuvial is already tied to it's MP in the encounter, exp is based on MP of enemy Illuvials. So it would also make sense to calculate ergon energy based on MP too.

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This is just an example formula and can be adjusted. This also means that there is more room for balancing than with an absolute Ergon energy cost. Based on my formula the cost of capturing Illuvials would range from 300 (T1S1) - 1000 (T5S3). It should not affect high tier runs too much because every good Iluvial is very expensive and will use up the Ergon energy fast. But I don't have to feel bad if I catch an atlas in stage 3 for 300 energy only.

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It might affect stage 1 runs when you only have to pay 300 energy for every Illuvial in the run instead of 650. But T1S1 Illuvials won't be very valuable in the long run anyway.

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And there is still the possibility to rebalance a run based on energy cost and spawn rate

unreal ember
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I've run through trying to harvest plants, and 6/10 runs I'm packing in ore at the end before grabbing the rifts, because all the plants I want are harvested already. or the map is filled with Spike Juices and Thorn Berries. Not that they aren't useful in any way, I just don't use them as much as I would a Ringnut(which is probably most used besides Gumballs).

When it comes to green ores, devs set it now, where there's enough room to decide whether to keep mining ore or pick a few battles if there are worthy ones in the map. Problem with green ores is, only about 34-40% produce shards for you. 52% if you own an Atomic Conjurant. So in the end you almost waste time trying to shard farm. Same with yellows...I get the "rarity" but god damn..

When Abyssal opened I was excited because I could FINALY hope to find 1 Epic Water Gem to fuse a Jokull. What do I end up with instead? 1 S2 run only mining yellow and I receive 1 Common water gem, 4 Earth gems, and a fire gem. The rest were Pallavium and Chrovium. 51 YELLOW Ores mined and that's what I get?

So really, I opened my pack of Special Gem Cards, and end up with 75% mining material. I say 1.5x-2x the Ergon Energy like you did with mastery points so we could fit in the new armors and weapons during battle. Id feel a lot better not having to waste 3 hours mining nothing but yellows, and big ores and coming short of the Gem I need. More energy creates a higher chance per map. Either that or turn down the Earth, Air, and Nature Gems in all maps besides Brightland, cuz I'm not getting many water gems.

Currently Holding(I have not fused ANY water illuvials) 61 Common air Gems, 14 Common water. 15 Epic Air Gems, 3 Epic water Gems. 56 Rare Air Gems, 1 rare water gem. 69 Air Gem Fragments, 7 Water Gem Fragments... seeing what I'm seeing? this is after 14 runs is Abyssal.

worn ridge
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I only want to see harvesting changed. Other than that, I don’t agree with this idea

latent bear
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I think we should be able to spend a little more time and harvest a little bit more per stage

100% clear is crazy

Maybe double what we have now, and some adjustments to other things

mossy inlet
latent bear
# mossy inlet I feel the gem drop rates are bugged since PB1. Idk how hard it could be to fix ...

I like your idea

I think we should be able to complete and collect more of a stage, it feels way too incomplete now

But a 100% complete run would be burdensome and take strategic decision making out and cause infinite supply

I think price reduction and also more harvestable completion would be better, for example

1/2 fuel price and 200% more time/quantity collection in a stage

If we are given unlimited time to harvest everything, people would get bored

unreal ember
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I agree 100% clear stage run is crazy to think of. I'm cool with spending 1-2 hours fighting 30 fights for xp, but to then wipe out an entire map because I have infinite energy and I have to have all the things would burn me out by the 3rd/4th run. Regardless of what I get rewarded with

latent bear
unreal ember