30 cards Teams

[olive lantern]

Teambuilding as it is right now is too restrictive, encouraging a meta of 8 illuvials 17 augments and a rock-paper-scissor effect.
If we had just 2 more cards per team, there would be more room for skill and adaptability in the game and make it more fun both to play and watch.

I think we all always agreed on the fact that Arena should be skill-based. This change aims to remove some of rock-paper-scissor effect to empower players again on their wins or losses.

Obviously, this change alone won't be enough to solve the current issues, but it is a step in the right direction.

[dusty marlin]

Yup. this is a no brainer and have no idea why some people thought it needed to be changed.
Have given feedback many times to change it back to 30.

[fossil halo]

I’d even say make it 33 cards per team + base armor + base gun = 35

But ill take the +2 addition still

Right now the deck size limitation really incentivises low flexibility team building making the game less interesting, less skill based and more arbitrary deck vs deck with minimal room for manoeuvring and added skill expression which +2 deck space will assist and imo +5 deck space will solve

[olive lantern]

I almost agree with this, but i'm more a fan of small changes with multiple iterations than big swings when it comes to game balance/mechanics so i'd go with 30 now and see later if it indeed still needs more change or not. But i see your point.

[fossil halo]

Cant disagree w that approach

[finite lake]

This will help make it less rock/paper/scissor 💯

[dusty marlin]

Interesting how you say this now...

[solid sequoia]

I like this idea though personally Id like to see a cap on the number of augments we can have in a deck( or are allowed to play at any one time) . In TFT you might get a tank and two carries with items and that's it. Not the whole team full of high impact augments that instantly change a 25 cost Doka into a maga tank that can't be killed for 80% if of a round 😅.

[olive lantern]

So you'd like to see a system like in TFT where we are limited to 9-12ish augments per deck is that right?

[solid sequoia]

Yeah or have as many as you wish in your deck but you can only play x amount at any one time. I'm thinking more between 6-9 than 9-12 but whatever people thinks works is fine by me.

[jovial spoke]

I am nowhere near qualified to comment thoroughly on this but I am interested in knowing the implications when it comes to chosing the max number of cards

Why 30? @fossil halo mentioned 33.... is there a way to determine the optimal number to avoid the rock/paper/scissor? I would assume the higher the number you can have the more complex strategy becomes which will bump up the complexity/gameplay. Essentially why add +2 slots instead of say +7 slots?

The other thing to remember is that all these illuvials, augments and armaments will need to be crafted through Overworld gameplay (this is more my wheelhouse), which will tie into the overall cost for professional decks [more of an impact if the number cards increases to 35, or 40, etc.]

Anyways just trying to get a better understanding and would love to hear more where the Teams at on their reasoning for it

[fossil halo]

imo 30 is a move in the right direction and who knows maybe +2 is enough right, im all for incremental changes to get more data

The deck size needs to be balanced on what will be most fun and optimal not just "smaller team = less cost = more accesible" especially when we can move other levers to make the cost more accessible anywho

[olive lantern]

So there is a middleground to be found between limitations (as they also influence skill expression: how good can you do with a limited amount of options) and adaptability (the more options you have, the more choices the players will have to make) which is why we can't go wild and say 60 cards teams, and why 28 is not enough.

As it is now most competitive players just came to the conclusion that 28 is not enough for the adaptablity to shine so this proposal aims to test with 30 and see if it solves it or if it needs more.

I would also love to have the insights of @shut wing on this topic if possible as to why 28 or if the team already has any plans regarding this situation.

[fossil halo]

would generally love to hear more Team perspectives on feedback more often, but I get we cant always get everything we want, at least the team hears our feedback

[olive lantern]

yeah that's a possible option to explore too that i'd gladly support later on if this change + the ones planned by the team already end up not being enough. again i personnally like more small adaptive changes with a lot of iterations rather than big swings

[shut wing]

I do like having more options in my team, so I'm all for having 2 extra slots. If something changes in the future and 30 is too much, we can decrease the number of cards allowed.

[limpid thunder]

I think the # of cards is ok, but put more structure to it. If you were required to take 14 illuvials there would be more balanced teams winning, more focus on building hyper, and more strategy inbetween rounds on board swaps

[olive lantern]

This is also true! if we put limits on the structure we can force X or Y playstyle. Maybe it will end up like that, but for now i kinda like the freedom of it being my own choice how i structure my Team.

[tight seal]

What happens when we go to 19 Augments? Their value is just so good 😛

(I am half kidding)

[olive lantern]

then you miss on the opportunity to use your ranger in a meanigful way and might probably lose more than win$

[tight seal]

I'm not as good at the game as you, but I definitely think adding 5 might be way more meaningful ya know

[olive lantern]

adding 5 what?

[tight seal]

'cards'

[olive lantern]

oh my bad didnt realize we were in this chat thought it was DM's smh lol
yeah like @fossil halo said it's very likely that we need to end up on a 33-35 cards decks. but it's just easier to find perfect balance by doing small changes at a time and re-iterate than doing big swings.

[tight seal]

Thats fair, I definitely think theres too much that makes navigating your team during battle a chore, so I'd like to avoid that and bring it down to 25 and fix it in other ways

Or make it 'card drawing' which I dont love but I am sure theres a creative solution

[soft lava]

https://tenor.com/view/butterfly-natural-water-happy-flying-gif-7223618

is this what unanimous agreement is?

[olive lantern]

pretty much yeah, @shut wing rather than using governance blablabla can we just count on you to forward this feedback and the community sentiment regarding this to the team and discuss it when Ben comes back? we'll be waiting on the news

[shut wing]

We have some changes coming in the next patch. My advice, we'll see how the current limitations are on our side with those changes, and then adjust the numbers. Sounds good?

[olive lantern]

great thank you! speaking of which, is there a last patch before holidays coming or next patch is in jan?

[shut wing]

We might have another patch, but nothing related to units, synergies and weapons/suits. We'll post more when that's live. Next major patch will be post holidays

[ebon willow]

I actually think you should have a side deck and after X turn you can make maybe 2-3 switches. Would mix it up a lot and if you get hard countered early you could switch to something else.

[tight seal]

Thats a novel way to fix the probkems, your side team cant be augments or weapons/suits.

Its an Illuvial switchup

[ebon willow]

Yep

[tight seal]

Maybe u just split up the team in general. Every team has min 15 illuvials. That's just the only rule but idk

[olive lantern]

guys, remember that the more complex mechanics we implement, not only the further we delay the actual release, but also the least casual friendly the game becomes.

[oak cipher]

I agree with this. Path of east resistance. Easiest approach is just to increase the team size

[rocky merlin]

Is this a problem that can be solved by adding two more cards?
For example, what if we have to put in at least 13 or 14 illuvials?
That would be 14-15 cards available for augments, weapons and armors.

[prisma ore]

I could have sworn the team was playing against each other with 30 slots but it was reduced to 28 for the public build.

[olive lantern]

maybe yes, maybe not. But we also need to be mindful of the incoming change to only 1 augment of the same name per deck. example, no more triple survival protocol. So this alongside the augments change might already change a lot of things. WIP so we will see and adapt 🙂

[azure verge]

You could be allowed as many augments as you want but limited to say 10 playable per match?

I also have had thoughts that weapons and armor shouldn’t impact your deck slots. Ranger gear should get its own 5-7 slots or something then you can have 28 cards for augments and illuvials

That or add a button at least to upgrade weapon after equipping so i dont need a 10-25-50-70 cost of the same damn weapon. I just bring the 10 cost and upgrade it during the match