#Add lluvitar sales royalties to the safety pool

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

sleek sluice
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Hey all,

Simple one here, originally I posted the Illuvitar redirect of sales idea and I think I should have included the royalties.

I would like to see us pass this and get the royalties added to the safety pool.

Furthermore, I would like to add all non game related revenue (so anything generated prior to open beta/early access) to the safety pool. In theory it will not be required with a raise completed, however the safety pool means the funds diverted will not be touched unless otherwise absolutely required, a break glass in case of emergency type scenario.

This comes at no negative downside in my opinion as I think if we needed emergency access to funding and had this solution ready, it beats trying to be reactive and looking for options when it is too late.

I think the safety pool should remain intact until a time upon which revenue generated covers outgoing revenue costs.

If we need to split the other revenue sources into separate ICCPs to be voted upon so be it.

As always open to feedback for and against.

All the best,

Josh Atlas_Love

sweet forge
#

This aligns well with the previously passed ICCP

sleek sluice
#

I would say all royalties could be added from sales from land also but that's up for discussion.

small mural
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Definitely for it. At the same time, they keep reassuring us that runway is fine. So I don't know what to think. Good idea tho bro.

main bluff
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We in principle agreed to fill the safety pool. I don't see why we shouldn't just have all sources of revenue go and fill up the pool.

tepid jungle
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To me 100% includes royalties. Maybe it was not explicitly stated, but it can be assumed.

charred steppe
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At the moment royalties are not included

tepid jungle
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I think it will be difficult to differentiate between royalties from land and royalties from illuvitars.

sleek sluice
runic fractal
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I thought this was implied. I don't see how this could be bad so I'm all for it! 🙂

jaunty lintel
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Definitely in favor. I assumed it was included anyways based on previous wording.

gleaming bear
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Surely an actual case needs to be made for why this needs to happen. Can't just have scopes creeping right?

rustic moth
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I am in support of this ICCP. Until the raise Kieran mentioned is complete and runway is resolved in that manner, this other source of revenue should be included to ensure the safety pool reaches its target.

gusty kayak
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In favor!

gleaming bear
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Not saying I'm against it in principle, I'm just not supporting something blindly without an actual case being put forward for it.

rustic moth
# gleaming bear Isn't the runway now solid? We have a roadmap, we have a raise and we have kiera...

I don't want to undermine Kieran's backing, however the logistics of using those tokens is much more complicated. They are meant to be used after other resources are exhausted, and it is held in ILV. A key reason the safety pool is in stable coin is to avoid potential impact of broader market implications or decreased value of ILV itself. A reserve in ILV is only as valuable as the token itself, which if other avenues are exhausted, what is the expected value of ILV ? It is a significant show of faith and commitment, but the financial value and terms are not equivalent to managing shorter term stability.

fleet sequoia
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I dont see how anyone other than the CCs who are making the project happen should get paid before a true working product is finished.
We have seen Kieran putting his salary back into the project already and i think this is the right way to go. The team has shown to be responsible in making the product they promised.
I think we should continue giving them the necessary space. I would rather give up this 10 cents per token and give the team 1M$ more in runway, than push to distribute those pennies.
Naturally, as stated in the previous proposal, the money would go to the safety pool only to be used if absolutely mecessary.

sage blaze
#

Agreed

sleek sluice
gleaming bear
cloud sleet
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100% for this, fill her up as quick as possible.can throw in Vetemors Nutcracker Nfts aswell

plush fulcrum
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Very obv good idea
Classic Josh

leaden mist
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I'm for adding more revenue sources into the safety pool.

We are about at $2.7m in revenue if you count all trading fees(land and illuvitars) and beyond sales. It is doubtful we would reach $15m with just trading fees and beyond sales. Would it be better to go piece meal or include all future revenue sources like merch store? Is $15m still the best target with possible future raise and Kieran’s commitment?

I'm in favor of this proposal but think a more encompassing group of ICCPs could be proposed, maybe with a guarantee that fuel sales will still go through the normal revdis process. That way fears of a slippery slope of revenue going to safety pool could be alleviated.

fleet sequoia
# gleaming bear But I was looking forward to my 10 cents per token 😅. Fine I'll support it, tho...

That is totally fair, yes we are the minority of holders, and it might be a negative experience for the inactive holders to see that they aren't getting any revenue.
But for now I don't think these stakeholders would even expect revenue since there is no active revenue generating product other than Illuvitars.

Once the game comes out, revdis should IMO not be held back in any way and pausing it would result in a lot of negativity. That, again is a good reason to buckle up and ensure runway :] Still sad that it has to come out of the community's rewards, but I personally would be happy to do it if it helps and gives back to the team.

coral dawn
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I'm all for this, tbh I just presumed it was automatically included!

languid sparrow
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I agree, that's just extra money for runway. More safety and financial security is always welcome.

grave acorn
loud forge
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I agree that this should have been added in the original ICCP-4, kind of alarming we missed this until now 😅 100% for it! Making sure we have the funds to keep developing the Games and release them as close to the timeline as possible is the number 1 priority!

charred steppe
leaden mist
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I think some transparency around the logistics of the safety pool would also be good before we add more revenue.

What is the plan for converting ETH to USDT that is currently in the safety pool?

loud forge
grave acorn
charred steppe
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Yeah I agree so it should be added in this idea 😉

sleek sluice
sleek sluice
grave acorn
charred steppe
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If you say all, also merch?

grave acorn
sleek sluice
charred steppe
valid cairn
summer silo
runic fractal
cloud sleet
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100 % Anything that generates revdis should go into the safety pool until it's full.
Could also add a Donate button and maybe add in a limited edition NFT for those that donate over 20$?

#

Or better yet get early PVP access😀

runic fractal
cloud sleet
sleek sluice
cloud sleet
valid cairn
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Aaron literally said we could make an iip for a unicorn

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So why not josh.

cloud sleet
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I like it, and it should be done for the meme at least.

valid cairn
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Please no

cloud sleet
sleek sluice
cloud sleet
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Rich has a Jet and he can ship you around the world🤭

#

Got derailed a bit there.
Anywhoo, lets get that money.

summer silo
charred steppe
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Unicorn you say

small mural
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This should be ALL IMX trading fees, including fees from land.

Also needs to include an end date so that we don’t require a future IIP to turn this off.

leaden mist
gleaming bear
cloud sleet
grave acorn
south quiver
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I support 100% revenue diverted until the safety pool is filled. I also support other less encompassing variations, but I do think we should make it a priority to fill the safety pool.

gleaming bear
# grave acorn you want a few fractions of a cent on the dollar rather than meet the 15mil targ...

Maybe... I don't know, shouldn't that be the decision of the revdis receiver? Is their share of the revenue theirs or the DAOs now it's hard to tell. I'm not against the 32 👍 in here donating 100% their revdis to a safety pool if they so choose. We just don't know what the other 34968 think about it. Perhaps they might want to wait until we know more about this raise kieran is working on.

grave acorn
small mural
# gleaming bear Maybe... I don't know, shouldn't that be the decision of the revdis receiver? Is...

It sounds like the raise hasn't happened yet so its probably safest to continue filling the safety pool instead of just assuming the raise will be successful

Of course if the raise does happen Ill be the first one putting an IIP to distriubte the saftey pool as revdis as it wont be needed anymore.

The highest priority is making sure the DAO doesnt run out of money before the game releases. Revdis has to come second to that or else the tokens will be worthless anyway.

viscid elm
# gleaming bear Maybe... I don't know, shouldn't that be the decision of the revdis receiver? Is...

The Safety Pool can be utilized for distribution by ICCP. I just get the sense that people regard funds in the Safety Pool as "gone". They are in that pool specifically because it creates options. If a raise happens and is an amount that creates sufficient breathing room, we could distribute the Safety Pool to ILV stakers. If not, we're in a position where we've captured the maximum amount of funds to continue development.

It's certainly worth thinking about people who aren't speaking up, but realistically we have to treat the subset of people who engage in governance as representative of the whole. We can't make any kind of meaningful inference about what silent people might want, and trying to pursue that path would lead to stagnation.

#

As for this proposal, my preference would be to divert all revenue to the Safety Pool until the $15M cap is reached, including fees from land trading and merchandise. We did discuss the possibility when we drafted the original Safety Pool proposal, but decided at that time to only include Illuvitar sales. A major concern and reason why all revenue wasn't included for diversion to the Safety Pool was community sentiment. I'm extremely happy to see that the community seems to be in favour of a conservative approach at this time.

carmine sapphire
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Hello all,

Once again @sleek sluice brings up a great proposal for the DAO.

I am too 100% in favour of having the royalties redirected to the treasury.

To extend my input, I will say this:

I am studying the macroeconomic environment multiple hours a day and in my humble opinion I forecast a recession later this 2023. The game won't be out yet and perhaps current runway isn't enough.

I know we have @pallid reef personal funding covering us for additional months. I believe at current ILV token price these are worth for 17 months. However, if recesion hits hard, ILV price could be reduced significantly so Kieran's runway would be reduced substantially.

Why am I saying all of this? Just to remark that literally ALL sources usable for runway extention are omega welcome. Revdis now are nothing compared to what they will become once the game is in full success mode. So, instead of going for a few cheapies now in revdis, I say let's ensure the DAO survives this very likely recession.

Better be safe than sorry guys. Best case scenario none if this will be needed. But what if?

Thanks for reading, and thanks again @sleek sluice!

Best to everyone,

Xz.

sleek sluice
gleaming bear
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Well let's see how this plays out. I am playing devil's advocate a bit here but the level of engagement with big decisions like this is relevant.

Silence is not consent and weight should be given to the overwhelming majority not openly supporting this idea when a decision is ultimately made.

kind siren
latent pollen
#

Yeah - I support this.

Posted about this a little while ago - we would be killing it if we did this too lol but obvi I know we were never gonna trade but would have been tight.
#1087497288064176211 message

leaden mist
latent pollen
empty light
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Im not overly fond of retroactive actions via IIP. As much as it feels like a good idea I am quite principled on this sort of thing specifically and aim to never ever break a promise. I take them overly seriously to a fault. All royalties up until this point fall under the promise of the revenue distributions structure already in place. I'd like to redirect royalties from the point of an IIP onwards but I don't feel good about breaking a promise after the fact. If that makes sense? Distributing these revenues but putting future royalties into the safety pool.

willow river
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If all funds are redirected to the safety pool then there should be wording stating that once the target is hit (15M) all revenue from all sources over and above that total will be redirected back to rev dis ensuring Safety pool stays over the 15M threshold in perpetuity or until there is no reason to keep the safety pool at which time the funds will be redirected to rev dis with the pass of an IIP to distribute the safety pool funds. For example if the safety pool hits 15M then drops to 14.5M then the safety pool would be filled back to 15M then everything over that amount would go to rev dis. As I am typing this I am also realizing that this type of proposal needs to have some kind of project development cap. to limit spending from the dev team to ensure there isn't some kind of black hole of development spending that would lead to rev dis never occurring. I also believe It is very important investors see an ROI as soon as possible and that promise needs to be kept.

sleek sluice
gleaming bear
empty light
# willow river If all funds are redirected to the safety pool then there should be wording stat...

Anytime funds are released from the safety pool they will need to pass an IIP. At that time if the council felt like they still needed to top it up after that then that would definitely be incorporated into the IIP. Writing in that terminology now would set some weird optics that we need more than 15m and plan on using it and topping it up more than once. Which isn't the goal of the safety pool at all. 15m was a number provided to us in conjunction with the team as all that is required for the foreseeable future. In terms of until Illuvium is generating revenue at least

sleek sluice
empty light
sleek sluice
cosmic plinth
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I'd be ok with Illuvitars' royalties being added since it might have been the intention anyways.
But I disagree with the suggestions to expand the scope to all revenues. I understand this is a DAO and everything is subject to change but like Scoriox, I feel that optics and a sense of stability / delivering on promises matters.
Imo, we should let things play out for a while before exploring other avenues. I strongly believe Wave 1 was hampered by the ILV to SILV2 gap, but that gap has really narrowed and the DAO is generating a steady stream of ETH from disk sales to which we could (hopefully) add substantially more at Wave 2 launch (where one would expect a better ratio of eth usage compared to wave 1).
Yes, we should be adaptable but we should not cede or give the impression that we are ceding to panic / are not stable.

jaunty lintel
leaden mist
jaunty lintel
# cosmic plinth I'd be ok with Illuvitars' royalties being added since it might have been the in...

Hypothetically, is there a difference between these two scenarios?

$15m illuvitars sales - $3.75m to safety pool then $11.25m to revdis
$15m illuvitars royalties - $3.75m to safety pool then $11.25m to revdis
$15m land royalties - $3.75m to safety pool then $11.25m to revdis
$15m illuvium branded tuxedos from the merch store - $3.75m to safety pool then $11.25m to revdis
$60m revenue total, $15m into safety pool, $45m revdis

$15m illuvitars sales - $15m to safety pool
$15m illuvitars royalties - $15m to revdis
$15m land royalties - $15m to revdis
$15m illuvium branded tuxedos from the merch store - $15m to revdis
$60m revenue total, $15m into safety pool, $45m revdis

If the goal is to have a filled $15m of safety pool for stability, does it matter where that $15m comes from?
In regards to optics, I would actually disagree to the complete opposite. In a time and industry with constant bankruptcies and companies/projects gambling unnecessarily, I think a DAO showing they're willing to forgo their own short term gain to be SURE they will be still in business is marketable.

Edit:
And just to be completely clear, I'm presenting this info just for it to be available. I'm not necessarily even advocating for someone to write an ICCP to allow all revenue into safety pool. I think it would bring more stability so I'd be in favor if someone draws it up, but my opinion on this is just like the Forge. I'm fine with it passing but I don't think it will have a big impact regardless.

jaunty lintel
cosmic plinth
# jaunty lintel Hypothetically, is there a difference between these two scenarios? 1) $15m illu...

Your example does not take into account the sequence of events / product releases so allow me to clarify my point: if all proceeds from Illuvitars (including royalties) are already going to the safety pool, why should we be in a hurry to introduce other alterations to revdis?
Unless I am missing a major point here, the next significant revenue event should be wave 2 in June (which is also routed to the safety pool). So I just think it makes more sense to wait till then and assess how things pan out (refer to my point about eth usage vs. silv2). If we need to do more, then we discuss it then (but from the looks of it now, disks steadily bring eth).
Agree to disagree on the optics, while you might see it as the community forgoing ST gain for LT benefit, some could see it as a signal that guiding principles could get constantly altered and that the project is in a dire situation (when it's actually not).
I There are [tens of] thousands of token holders and it would be wrong to assume that they all have the same level of understanding/empathy, due diligence, involvement, expectation etc. on the project. See how financial markets perceive capital raises and restructurings that address funding issues...

jaunty lintel
# cosmic plinth Your example does not take into account the sequence of events / product release...

I agree on the ETH usage vs sILV2. sILV2 levels dropped a lot from wave 1. Wave 2 will probably bring in a good chunk more ETH (or total sales numbers will simply drop as people scale down their purchases).

I think my example does take into account product releases. Next significant revenue event should be merch store dropping very soon, but there's no way to gauge how much will even sell so hard to tell if it will bring in much of anything compared to Beyond wave 2. Point being if merch store starts selling and that revenue is distributed to stakers, it's gone.

I agree optics are subjective, but what I was saying is the DAO can advertise it as a good thing and convince people it's for stability. We don't need it, that's why it's in a pool that can just be diverted back to revdis once we are positive we don't need it. I don't assume anything about all stakers, but as Blickter mentioned we can't assume what people that aren't present think either way. We have to go off of something, and discussing it here is the only way we can. Ultimately this is a DAO where guiding principles CAN change, everyone should know that when first buying ILV and becoming a token holder. If they don't have the level of due diligence, involvement, etc. to care about that then they are free to make their own choice and sell their ILV when the DAO acts like a DAO.

Ultimately if revenue gets diverted to safety pool, either it's not needed and gets distributed anyways, or it was needed and good thing we did it.
If we don't divert all revenue the best that can happen is it wasn't needed anyways and it was distributed. Worst that can happen is it was needed and we had to take emergency actions. It's just risk management, but I think we're already being pretty cautious so I don't see a big impact either way.

small mural
sleek sluice
small mural
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I really don’t see any reason to not just allocate all revenue. Whatever comes from merch will be relatively small and probably not worth distributing if the other revenue is going to the safety pool.

I really think it’s important to include an end condition to any IIP directing revenue to the safety pool. Having a cutoff date is important for messaging that this is a temporary solution for funding and should not be expected to continue through game launch.

cosmic plinth
cosmic plinth
# jaunty lintel I agree on the ETH usage vs sILV2. sILV2 levels dropped a lot from wave 1. Wave ...

Guiding principles in a DAO can change but they should not change constantly because you'll lose a few token holders / community members at every fork (and imo that sacrifice should only be made when necessary).
100% agree on your point regarding risk management. I was only suggesting that we give it more time before we decide. But if wave 2 is not included in the safety pool, then that's a different story ofc 🙂

sleek sluice
# cosmic plinth Guiding principles in a DAO can change but they should not change constantly bec...

On the original idea thread we had some conversations around using the illuvitars product as a revenue generation tool exempt from rev dis period, however it wasn't perceived to be required.

In this thread I think engaging in discussions around additional options to divert to the safety pool is valid. I welcome your feedback 🤝. I personally don't see a downside on adding external non game revenue to the setup safety pool. It only gets used if needed so it's more a proactive precautionary action that doesn't meaningfully take away revenue from stalkers unless absolutely required.

If it is required I can't see people being upset that we had been so proactive and have something in place to protect the project.

valid cairn
sleek sluice
cloud sleet
valid cairn
cosmic plinth
leaden mist
#

This might be a good topic of conversation to have for the strategy council nominees.

I created a Google Doc outlining a possible way forward by assigning each revenue source to its own ICCP, Illuvitar sales royalties being one of them.

Simple Summary of ICCPs:
This set of proposals suggests holding revenue generated from all sources, except for fuel sales, in the Illuvitar Safety Pool (IIP-29). The proposals suggest diverting funds to the safety pool to increase flexibility and provide a safety net for the DAO in case of unexpected events. Ideally, these funds would be transferred back to the vault once they are no longer needed in the safety pool. However, if all other sources of funding are insufficient, the safety pool could be used as a last resort measure to sustain DAO operations.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18pvkAqQgL55IHIYMu2BJSvIbpsDZQGvvd9U1zZxOSg0/edit?usp=sharing

Any comments or edits welcome.

Google Docs
ICCPs for Safety Pool

Simple Summary of ICCPs: This set of proposals suggests holding revenue generated from all sources, except for fuel sales, in the Illuvitar Safety Pool (IIP-29) before the game launch. The proposals suggest diverting funds to the safety pool to increase flexibility and provide a safety net for ...

gleaming bear
celest hedge
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I actually like this idea. Yep we have been reassured multiple times about runway etc. but i just think it can't hurt to keep filling the safety pool right ?

sleek sluice
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<@&814435151307866142> I am guessing here that this will be put on the backburn until the next epoch?

viscid elm
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I'd say it needs to be explicit about what's going to be diverted to the Safety Pool so it's clear what's being voted on, quite a few alternatives have been thrown around in this thread.

empty light
leaden mist
empty light
empty light
#

Your illuvitars royalties proposal doesn't mention any backdating by the way. Although I'm not a big fan of it. I believe many in this discussion were in favour of it.

viscid elm
leaden mist
# empty light Although I quite like the way this is organised we would.need to gauge community...

Yeah they are not prefect and need refinement but I started and think it could be good enough to add to the IIP/ICCP forum? I also think we could gather the communities sentiment in that location since it is drafted up in this rough ICCP form. Then refine and take out or include things as feedback gets made?

Or just the royalties ICCP could go up in the IIP/ICCP forum if we want a quicker turn around or don't want to handle all these ICCPs at once.

empty light
sleek sluice
leaden mist
viscid elm
viscid elm
# sleek sluice That would be awesome mate, not stepping on my toes for sure. End result is hop...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xZjirwoW-h3_ioX9L781j8E6XyiTtqMlNxyIWWzvuVA/edit?usp=sharing

Thoughts?
@leaden mist Basically pasta'd your proposal and made some edits, I hope that's ok.

Google Docs
Illuvitar and Land Royalties

ICCP: Illuvitar Products and Land Royalties to the Safety Pool Summary This proposal funds the Safety Pool (IIP-29) with revenue generated through the royalties of Illuvitar products and Land. Reserving these funds helps to mitigate the risk of uncertain macroeconomic conditions by providing an ...

leaden mist
viscid elm
#

Added a line.

#

"This proposal will be retroactive, and will include royalties already collected but not yet distributed."

leaden mist
fleet sequoia
#

so we'll need a new IIP for the second wave of Illuvitars then?

viscid elm
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I mean, assuming we need it, we'll need it. If that makes sense.

fleet sequoia
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imo would be good to at least ideate on the new IIP before the end of this epoch since the next council members will be instated in 33 days, with only 9 more days till the end of wave 1.

viscid elm
#

To be honest, it's a 5 minute job to update the first proposal to specify the second wave, and like merch, it would be best done when we're closer.

fleet sequoia
leaden mist
viscid elm
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That's just my opinion on it ofc, anyone is free to propose it. I just don't see a lot of value in doing too much too early. If the DAO decides we need the revenue from wave 2 for the Safety Pool, there's no imminent risk of the revenue from the second wave escaping.

viscid elm
fleet sequoia
# viscid elm That's just my opinion on it ofc, anyone is free to propose it. I just don't see...

I would rather see the safety pool be worked out in further detail.
Like @gleaming bear said before, we now take away one source of revenue and we leave options open for other avenues to be directed towards the safety pool. This could create a slippery slope to continue adding onto this.

So instead of now talking about a single avenue, namely royalties, I think we should reach a consensus around what we want the safety pool to be.

In this chat, @willow river made an interesting point where the safety pool should be refilled to the initial 15M when the team is forced to take out money from it. This way you ensure the robustness of the project's financial situation and it is something I would like to further explore. Is this something that we want? And if so, from which avenues should the safety pool take that money?
#1096046857358155927 message

In my opinion it would make sense to continue with Illuvitars, add in the royalties from Illuvitars and Land. Maybe even the land sale and royalties from NFT-collections like those on Open Sea. The peripheral projects would produce revenue that supports the DAO and the community knows that when they buy Illuvitars or such, the value could go to this safety pool.
On the other hand, I think the main project should have its returns be sent to the community. Let's leave Fuel-sales or Illuvidex royalties over Skins and Illuvials as something that was always meant to go to tokenholders and landholders.
Naturally, if the game never is able to cover the overhead costs, we may need to make some changes

But I guess this more elaborate discussion will require a new #1020759212172775464 thread 🙂

viscid elm
# fleet sequoia I would rather see the safety pool be worked out in further detail. Like <@2934...

I don't regard the Safety Pool as a rolling pool - Once it's filled, it's full.

That could change if there's a desire, but the Pool was sized in consultation with the team to provide a buffer that should last to launch and beyond.

A change to the structure or sizing of the Safety Pool is possible, but like you mentioned, it's certainly beyond the scope of diverting additional revenue sources to fill the pool.

valid cairn