[PASSED] IIP-30 Proposal for the Sale of Illuvitars

[torpid viper]

I like my idea too. waiting for counter thought !

isn't what pokemon do with booster ? 10 pack and 1 of them is a special one ?

I think a lot of people that would love to get some basic illuvitar and would be happy to get an alpha one without paying to much. and the whale that focus it just mint how many they want.

[shut anchor]

if alphas are part of every future wave, i dont want em

would you even buy a pokemon pack, if there was another pack marked IM THE RARE COLLECTIBLE you have no chance to get me otherwise

[true reef]

I see where you're going with this thought and I agree with the reasoning. 2 main reasons why I'm for this proposal though:

1. I think 120k Illuvitars is going to be a relatively pretty all portion of overall sales. Even if one whale bought all the alphas, it won't have any negative effect on anyone else unless you wanted one and they got it first. IMO the majority of people that buy alphas will either buy them in addition to whatever standards they would have bought anyway, so alphas is a way of adding $8m to the front of the sale

2. Aaron and Kieran have been spot on so far. Ever how so many people had strong opinions against almost everything about the land sale? And that went perfectly! They have a huge amount of data, insight and experience and this looks like another win to me

[true reef]

It's different than that analogy though. It's more like if Pokemon came out with a limited edition that only lasted the first week. People don't have the option to buy alpha or not. Everything is alpha until the alphas are sold out or the alpha sale ends

[shut anchor]

disagree and i think its a slap in the face to the artists who worked hard on the project

[true reef]

Not sure where you're going with that

[void granite]

I like your ideas

[shut anchor]

meanwhile the mass cards wont sell at all, destroying the project and long term income

[true reef]

FUD

[ocean hawk]

Isn't having the 10% chance of having something "rare" such as the alpha in a normal pack exactly what we already have with holos?

[opaque escarp]

So build a bot, it’s not that hard on IMX even for non tech people.. would it take you a few days if you know nothing about coding? Yeah, sure, but bots are just built by people.

I truly don’t get the bot argument. It’s not like we’re launching a 10k limit collection and that’s it, do we really expect to blow through basically all SILV2 in existence in 10 mins? (yes I know there’s a decent amount to be minted still)

Also think about what would happen if you codes your bot to buy as much as possible with the intent to sell them right after. What if we don’t sell out immediately and alphas aren’t going for a premium immediately after? They just made a donation to the DAO so that’s great.

If we do sell out immediately you can still get your packs and we can count the alpha sale as a MASSIVE success. $5m worth of SILV used in 10 mins? Awesome.

Win win win win. The only shitty part is if it launches in the middle of the night for you, but if they launched in waves bots would be a bigger concern as then the waves may get botted really really quickly as there’s less to buy.

I could probably build a bot for this in an hour or two, I’m not because it doesn’t really do anything special for me that I can’t do myself.

[blissful gull]

Pokemon did have 1st edition packs though, if I'm not mistaken.

[torpid viper]

The Point I don't like in my idea is what about whale that only focus Alpha. Will buy 100, keep 10 alpha, and trying to sell back 90.
What about For the first week, I would prefer something like "after OPENED 10 normal ones, the next buy is an alpha".
So they won't be able to keep their packs and hold long term if they choose to get some alpha packs.

[true reef]

Pretty sure MTG did too.

[random depot]

Me trying to troll the chat saying, can we get a week of 10+1 free Illuvitars, and people are now actually using it as a potential way to change the IIP. I don't have too much opinions on it but I wouldn't do it because the rest of the time you are devaluing what people get. Or you would have to hand out 1 pack every 10 buys which further decreases the cost of buying illuvitars. I don't think it is necessary.

[slow night]

Every sale we are going to be selling 4 different D1sks. First 2 of them, and after some time another 2. Because of technical limitations.

Why can't we sell 3 different D1sks in every wave (starting from day 1). Where one of those 3 contains only 1 Illuvitar with special stamp and nothing else. And we sell limited amount of that D1sk until sold out. And in the same time we are also selling other 2 D1sks that are the same as now.

[true reef]

That makes logical sense but it won't build the hype or have the plus value the current proposal will

[slow night]

Can you explain why wouldn't it be hyped?

[true reef]

This is very similar to what Tesla has done with some of their pre-sale releases. And it always builds hype and extra buy pressure to kick the sale off

[slow night]

But it's limited, everything just starts at the same time.

[opaque escarp]

I like this idea, I’d be interested in seeing those results.

[marsh pine]

May I also remind everybody to listen to the Town Hall with Aaron about this. It has a lot of great information. It's pinned here in the channel.

[true reef]

It doesn't build the same urgency. The way it's written currently plays a bit on FOMO ( by "a bit" I mean a LOT) and kicks the sale off with people who care about alphas leaning in on the starting gate and that momentum will carry though to the rest of the sale. Having a different rare option sold along side the standards just feels flat. There's no need to hurry to buy as long as there are still some left.

The psychology of it is different.

[torpid viper]

I didn't wrote : you get a free Alpha one.
It was more : 1 of the 10 you bought is an alpha one.

[true reef]

Thanks for mentioning that. I forgot that was available lol

[ocean hawk]

We already have that mechanic some what with hunting rare "holo" illuvitars in packs. It's just not guaranteed but whales will still hunt for them.

[slow night]

I respect your opinion and can see where you're coming from but I have to disagree with you. I think it would have the same effect to get that "special" pack.

In the same time, part of the community will not be able to raise concerns like: It a product before the product and it was not promised like that.

[torpid viper]

Whales wont focus on it with the actual IIP, they will focus on the "HOLO ALPHA". so spending 5x more but with diifferent pack. and we will separate the community between "Whale alpha pack" and "low cost pack". when it could be combinated.

with my idea, Whale won't have other choice to have standard holo card too and market with.

[true reef]

Hey disagreement is a discussion forum is healthy. You could be right.

[opaque escarp]

It’s not 100% clear, but the poll options say alphas, before alphas. That’s decently clear. And it’s coming from your Twitter which is inherently going to be biased towards your opinions yet it’s still massively in favor.

Personally I don’t like alphas, I agree with a lot of your opinions (maybe just not as strongly). But it seems like this is what the community wants.

[slow night]

I would be happy with council talking about that idea for just a minute. Maybe it's not possible because of the time because we need new design for a special pack or something. I don't know. But I think it's a valid idea.

I'm not a fan of buying special packs and getting 3-4 regular items in there. That's not necessary. But maybe it is. I don't know.

[thin hatch]

Limited results so far, but I see this trend continuing.

[sour epoch]

I think there have been a number of interesting ideas shared here. The one thing I'll highlight, the guaranteed aspect that won't change at this point is that the sale will begin on March 7. We are open to changing elements, but nothing that impacts the sales date. Also, while incredibly important, this is the first sale in what I hope will be many Illuvitar waves. No doubt we will learn from this and have ideas on how to adjust to improve future events.

[thin hatch]

The sale date is non-negotiable? No matter what the community consensus is?

[void granite]

what if combine the "early addopter"ideas @thorny cave still massive sell on first seven days

[thorny cave]

30% disagreement does not mean that the community wants this. It means a lot of the community doesn't. Check these ratios for the reduced pricing, to see what community wanting something looks like.

[sour epoch]

well, i can't see my fellow council members approving anything that impacts it at this stage. As we talk about things that make the DAO look bad, delaying the event almost certainly would top that list.

[opaque escarp]

That’s 30% disagreement on a very biased poll though.

I’d love if we took the entire concept of alpha away, but doesn’t look like that’s happening.

[thorny cave]

I don't think it's a good idea to change something that has already been advertised.
Same way as I think multiple sources of advertising illuvitars should mean we can't change them with a month left to the sale.

[shut anchor]

was this in the marketing arena at all?

[thin hatch]

I agree. But saying that it’s non-negotiable means the council is making that call regardless of what the community wants.

[thorny cave]

The council has to decide on what's good for the DAO, not the community. Sometimes those 2 differ.

[marsh pine]

Well they do have that power. The community voted on the people they think would make the right decision for the DAO. Just FYI

[thorny cave]

I see more thumbs up on my idea about revising it than dislikes. Do those count?

[opaque escarp]

I’d argue the community and DAO are one and the same. (Almost)

[marsh pine]

I think a min amount of votes is required

[opaque escarp]

59% vs 90%…

[thorny cave]

The community might not know what's best for it.

[thin hatch]

The poll I ran and this proposal are not same thing

[opaque escarp]

Which is an argument for the counsel and not a pure democratic vote

[void granite]

you can always change %, that tech department problem,easy to make it 1%. or maybe mega disks include 5 (or 3 or10)standare packs and one alpha pack,and only alpha pack can get "alpha" .this may let standard more worthless…but I am just saying combine with "early addopter"ideas gonna be great ,benfit for DOA also solve bot problem

[true reef]

I wasn't 100% onboard at first but the more I run through it in my head the more I like it. Also when in doubt, I look back at how aggressively a lot of the community opposed almost everything about the land sale. The Warwicks stuck with their plan and it worked out better that even they thought it would.

[feral snow]

It's absolutely something that could change, but there would need to be value there to make it worthwhile to justify the delay. Thus far, from my perspective, I haven't heard anything that would justify a delay. I'd consider it to be one of the worst overall things we could do as a DAO to delay from a date that has already been released. Just because something can change doesn't mean it's trivial to change, or doesn't require a risk-benefit analysis.

[void granite]

try to combine your ideas with @thorny cave "early addopter"one .you can find in #_ideas .if the whale resell all standards on secondary market ,then mush sold cheaper than mint price , more people get involved to this game

[thorny cave]

At this point I'd be happy to just release illuvitars the way they were advertised. If you want to give some extra stuff during the launch party. Good.

[thin hatch]

Wouldn’t a better option be…here are a few different proposals which one do you like better A, B, or C. Instead of this is the only option, but it’s better than the last one, yes or no

[feral snow]

It's an option, but we've prepared the proposal we felt would most accurately address the concerns voiced by most of the community. With that said, anyone is free to make a proposal bringing other options forward. Ned has already done so for his preferred implementation.

[opaque escarp]

There is an argument to be made that there should be some direction/push from the counsel, who are going to be the people who thought the most about it. So having only one proposal let’s them push there opinion a bit, which is a good thing IMO. If we hate there opinion, we can make shut it down like what happened.

[thin hatch]

I just feel like if this was the original proposal it would have been down voted, but because it’s revised and better than the last one people upvote it. Nothing has changed except the starting price

[feral snow]

And persistence of Alpha disks.

Only the 2 main concerns voiced were addressed.

[latent mural]

The mods have decided to put a slow mode on this thread as some people as constantly spamming it with low effort posts that just repeat the same points.

Please write longer, more thought out replies if you would like to participate. Or wait out the slow mode.

The discussion can be robust and I’m glad that it has stayed respectful, but some have posted a very large amount and I’m afraid we might be going in circles.

[oblique lava]

I feel the community sentiment has been established by this point, and the council is capable of hashing out the final details and voting. If we don't agree with the opinions of the council, we can always vote for replacements during the next election cycle.

[thorny cave]

I don't want to assert my opinion again. I'll just ask a couple of questions.

1. How will other people who have not read this chat, but have heard countless of founder interviews, have read our terms and conditions, or have read IIP-24 going to react when they come to buy on the 7-th of March.
2. How will we keep our promise of fair launch and unlimited first edition mint that was already made?

[opaque escarp]

1. Well price is basically the same so I think the reaction from people who have paid 0 attention will be fine. Will they even remember the details? I doubt it.
2. When the founders have said fair launch what they mean is for anything in regards to competitive modes. Illuvitars falls way WAY outside of that. Plus I don’t see how it’s not a fair launch. Everyone has an opportunity to buy alphas if you want. They’re not expensive, they don’t get you anything more.
3. (Because 2 really is two points) unfortunate that we don’t get unlimited time gated first editions I agree. I was really looking forward to illuvium breaking the mold of web3 nft launches, which it still is, just less so

[whole star]

2 - that alpha stamp is a cosmetic.. a fair launch.. they dont do anything extra in the actual collection, other than a stamp.

The changes made have actually made it way more likely that illuvitars as a whole will become a much bigger success in the long run.
For the collection part to work, there needs to be plenty of cards in the running, future fans and players will need to be able to also complete collections or at least have a fair chance at it.
Allowing Alpha's and now a much lowered price for wave 1 d1sks (which is still the first run of illuvitars) makes it more likely that the collection game can have the desired start that a functioning collecting game needs.

[calm ginkgo]

I was pretty vocal about whether the changes surrounding both price and product after marketing was worth the gain. I have abstained in voting because of it.

After thinking on it and listening to the Town Hall meeting today, I have put a thumbs up. I have been swayed to the fact that although the execution of this was off, the changes are worth the issues caused. One reason we invested in Illuvium is that there is good marketing and I do think the team can mitigate this.

I know saying that adds nothing to the current conversation, but I am a believer that if you publicly criticize you should also publicly acknowledge when you were wrong.

I do have a concern about how long this can be dragged out. The sooner the changes are made, the less (potentially) damaging they will be to the image Illuvium needs to maintain.

One other thing. I have seen some people say that Alpha is just for whales. I don't think that argument holds up. If you use sILV2 and want just one standard or mega, the price is not that much. At .025 for a standard Alpha it's just over half an sILV2. That's not really "only whales" pricing.
I think most of us who are here early will be able to afford to flex an Alpha PFP if we want to.

[thorny cave]

This is like saying that pokemon shiny cards don't add anything extra, because if you play them they don't do anything more.
Rarity is the extra thing, that most collectors go after and value more.

Price has nothing to do with the discussion. The rarity stamp devalues other disks in comparison and makes them second run.

[thin hatch]

1. As a collector what incentive do I have to buy early, or at all, when I can wait and see what falls on the secondary market and deciding on the final day IF I want to buy or not?
2. If I am a price speculator and I have a set amount of $$ I want to spend, do you think I would spend that same amount of money regardless of the price of Alpha disks?

My solution would be to make Alpha disks the same price and unlimited, but for a limited time. Whales will still whale, but collectors will have a reason to buy early. @arctic ivy @sour epoch

[wraith quarry]

Agreed and also why i initially mentioned it was something that doesn’t require effort now, only the thought or promise of future redemptions when we’re ready to distribute them. It certainly works well to wait and flesh it out and get it integrated as a core feature of illuvitars related physical merch.

[bleak ferry]

Thanks for saying that. That's exactly the reason why I don't like alpha d1sks.

We should not ignore the emotions here. Illuvium:Beyond is sold as a collection game. People don't play games for rational reasons. It is all about emotions. Games are exciting and make people happy or angry if done wrong. I feel with alpha D1sks the DAO is introducing an investment product into a game. But investments are (or should be) more rational driven. It attracts investors not gamers. I just think it doesn't fit into the initial purpose of Illuvitars. That's why it is so hard to find a consensus in the community because we are split into gamers vs investors.

I know that you cannot totally ignore the investment aspect of a collection game. But I think alpha d1sks make it more complicated than it should be.

[shut anchor]

if you don't like the inscription idea of "founders edition" then call it what it is, anything but "first edition" call it "Flex Edition"

[uncut onyx]

is there some kind of policy in place to limit the illuvitar purchases to 1 at a time or 5 at a time, or can a whale just buy up a majority at one screwing over others for the alpha disk?

[tall shuttle]

I think it's important to understand that there will always be different opinions, so compromise is the key. The council and team very quickly did that with this revised IIP, and I think it's a great compromise.

The main concerns seem to be about the existence of alphas in general. Yes a first edition alpha holographic Rhamphyre will be more valuable than a regular first edition holographic Rhamphyre. And it should be; it's rarer and costs more. But down the line there'll be a market for both.

[marsh pine]

You can buy 10 / TX

[opaque escarp]

My final thoughts and I need to take a break from this chat. I’ve been checking this way too much in the past two days..

Alpha is.. fine as a concept, I’d prefer we don’t muddy the original wave with them and keep tier 5 holos as the holy grail of the original illuvitars, but they’re not anymore with alphas. If someone has say $1000 they want to spend, do they decide to go for the tier 5 holo (no idea on the price just going with this) or do they go for a tier 3 alpha? Some people may chose one or the other, pulling demand away from normals and making the rush of opening them a little less special.

People are underestimating the amount of uniqueness that can come from an “unlimited” mint. I think that phrasing misleads people. It’s not truly unlimited, it’s limited by demand over 3 months. If too many D1SKs get opened and secondary prices fall too much after 1 month. If demand never goes up supply stops there too as D1SK purchases grind to a halt as the value contained within isn’t all too much. That’s our limit. Maybe that means there’s 10 tier 5 Holos or 100. There will still be plenty of very rare illuvitars, and if this game succeeds in the way we all hope, it won’t matter that there was once an “unlimited” mint for set 1 wave 1. They will be very sought after. So people who are only here for the speculation game and don’t care about building a collection have a place. I see that as the main argument for adding alphas, but I don’t believe it’s a good one.

Also I see the collection part and getting rewards from those collections as the main part of illuvium: beyond. If rewards are awesome, monetarily or simply in game effects that aren’t nfts, people will want normals regardless. So that’s sort of an argument why alphas are fine, because people will still want to add to their collections and why pay more? But i see this as more of a neutralizing argument than a positive one for alphas. But it’s also a driving reason I voted 👍 on this IIP. I don’t love alphas, I’d prefer they didn’t exist, but as long as the collection game and rewards are good enough normals will have there place.

If it were up to me we revert back halfway ish to original prices on normals and remove alphas entirely. If we want a 1:1 auction sell 10-20 “misprints” and make it easy on the art team. Invert the image and put a misprint stamp on it. Revert the colors, put a “double stamp” on it so there’s two illuvitars in the image.

One last thing, pet peeves. People are so anti whale yet whales have a much harder time making as much % as you do as a non whale. If they want to buy up as many as they can they need to drive up price and if they want to sell they have to drop price so they don’t make as much. All the anti whale BS is just that BS IMO.
And bots are people too, literally. People make bots, they don’t magically get a huge advantage with the way the sale is structured. I don’t personally think alphas will sell out instantly and if they don’t there’s no advantage to using them. There’s probably even a disadvantage because if you set them up to buy as much as possible you may be screwing your self. You can’t use your human judgement after the sale started, well you can change the bots behavior but at that point who cares. There’s no advantage gained.
To me all the “whales and bots are going to ruin everything” sentiment is completely misguided.

[random depot]

The fact that it costs more is also an issue that sometimes gets brought up. They basically value the Alpha's higher by default while normal TCGs just sell a first gen at the regular value. If you were to compare it to those sales, giving it a higher value becáúse it is first gen is a weird thing to do.

Now i dont care. I feel like buying one is just buying an OG symbol. I like OG symbols. So ill pay for it. But i understand others who feel like this is manipulation and a way to get more revenue. Tbh idc. I just like to be an OG who has spent way too much time on here. I would actually like it if they were untradeable. This way I can show off that i was here. I paid a bunch, but im one of the cool kids. 😄

[uncut onyx]

any time delay between tx to handle bots? also seems like non alpha ramphyre holo wouldnt be first edition, my impression is that alpha is first edition, or do i have that wrong? also keeping them tradeable is a good thing, the NFT history should reveal if they are the one who pulled it

[tall shuttle]

Nice Garf, I feel the same. I'll personally get one alpha Illuvitar to show I minted it and was here as an early adopter as well. Then I'm going to focus on collecting for the album at the lower price point.

Axceus, the non alpha are still first edition (S1). That will still hold value over later releases.

[woeful magnet]

I think everyone who is currently a part of the community should have an opportunity to mint their own Alpha.

By having a very limited amount of Alpha Illuvitars with no bot protection, I feel that the community suffers to the benefit of the DAO making lots of money.

I believe in a few solutions:
-(stated previously) Make Alpha Illuvitars be infinite for a short time (a week, a day).
-(stated previously) Limit how fast people can eat up Alphas with bots (captcha)
-Make Alphas random drops from D1sks (Like foils in trading cards)

A solution I havent yet seen:
-Have Alphas be a (paid) promo for buying a certain amount of normal D1sks. You buy a 5 pack of D1sks, you get the opportunity to purchase an Alpha D1sk as a promo on top. This would discourage scalpers as they would become bloated with standard Illuvitars alongside the Alpha Illuvitars. As a bonus, it would make more money.

edit: I personally think that having a 10-30 minute free for all buffet until all the alphas are eaten up is a boring way to introduce them, and makes them feel less special

[opaque escarp]

Am I crazy or is 120k not close to a limited amount. Seems like everyone expects them to be gone instantly. I don't see it

[woeful magnet]

If what Keiran said comes true and bots eat up the supply in a short time, I imagine many will be disappointed, myself included.

If the sale lasts a day+ and everyone has an opportunity to acquire one fairly, I will have no qualms.

It's just not something I think should be left up to chance.

And you're 100% right, 120k does seem like a large amount, I suppose the odds might indeed favour a slower sale.

Would be an interesting turn of events if more Alpha D1sks are minted than normal ones

[sour epoch]

Everyone does have the opportunity to mint an alpha. As Aaron has said, all orders placed while there is still inventory will be honored. It may be inconvenient for some, but everyone with ~0.5 sILV2 can go to the site at the launch time, and hit buy, and they get one. I also don't think it will be an instantaneous sell out of 120k d1sks, but that would be incredible if it happened, and amazing news for the DAO. Just think of the headline - "What down market? Illuvium DAO sale brings in $8 million in minutes!"

[thin hatch]

Q1. As a collector what incentive do I have to buy early, or at all, when I can wait and see what falls on the secondary market and deciding on the final day IF I want to buy or not?
Q2. If I am a price speculator and I have a set amount of $$ I want to spend, do you think I would spend that same amount of money regardless of the price of Alpha disks?

My solution would be to make Alpha disks the same price and unlimited, but for a limited time. Whales will still whale, but collectors will have a reason to buy early.

[woeful magnet]

Thanks for your insight. I am less concerned now with the availability of alpha d1sks.

I more strongly now feel that Founders Edition Illuvitars will be less special than initially perceived, at least by me.

But that is a personal opinion so I suppose I no longer have any issues with the current IIP.

[opaque escarp]

Q1. Prices may or may not be higher on the last day. In fact there will almost certainly be a little bit of fomo near the end driving prices up.
Q2. Depends, if prices are too low and you have a ton of SILV you may end up spending less as eventually you just have too many d1sks

My thing is any proposed solution for alphas has trade offs, I can't find a "perfect" solution to including alphas with no trade offs. I think not including alphas has no trade offs.

Edit: Also I'd love to discuss some more in DMs, I truly don't know what's the best solution.

[thin hatch]

I agree secondary market prices will be unknown, but when there no incentive to purchase early you give people the chance to see those prices and then decide if they want to purchase disks.

The only way I can see a whale deciding to spend less in this case is if they completed the entire wave. All rare, all holo, all combination. And I think that will be nearly impossible.

For the record the current proposal doesn’t effect me. I’m fortunate enough to participate. I truly think is just not the best model for the DAO or the community.

Selfishly I could give up this argument, but I’m doing it because I care too much.

[wraith quarry]

In general I think it will always be more favorable to leave a little profit on the table if it leaves a good taste in peoples mouths because the good karma will lead to more sales later on. Yes, I know funds are crunched a bit for the DAO rn but this statement still stands strong.

[slow night]

Aaron said that there will probably be around 9-15 out of 150 Illuvitars not opened and therefore auctioned as missprints.

Can we maybe know the math behind that?

• what are the chances of getting a single Illuvial? (common, rare, extra rare or whatever we will have)
• does that number change, and into what, when we introduce guaranteed rare illuvial in mega packs?
• in that calculation, how many packs are sold and how many of them are opened?
• are we going to know the percentages of getting something in the packs? if yes, can we know now?
• 150 Illuvitars include what exactly?

[sour epoch]

Your questions and solution both focus on a single demographic of potential buyers. You may be correct that this maximizes the value to collectors, they are one of about five unique consumer profiles and we need to balance engagement from each of them, while also maximizing value to the DAO without seeming cash-grabby or alienating.
To Q1 – why buy early? You’re correct, if a collector is purely looking to maximize their personal value, a strategy is to wait and see how secondary pricing plays out. In TCGs, not all packs have the same value of cards once opened, and collectors can just play the secondary market. Opening packs is a thrill of discovering something super rare, and maybe the chance to resell for more than the pack. The value to just playing the secondary market is to buy mispriced items or speculating on future growth of an item.
To Q2 – The question is whether the price speculator is the bulk of potential revenue, and if catering specifically to them negatively impacts the engagement of non-price speculators. Like any product, it is only worth what someone will pay. In the case of D1sks, price has been adjusted down to improve inclusivity, but its TBD what a secondary market will look like and if value is retained. Maybe the price goes down, maybe it goes up. It depends on demand. Inclusive pricing attempts to attract a broad range of individuals, which should be appealing to price speculators through driving demand.
(i'll be back in 15 minutes with the rest of my answer...)

[oak shuttle]

From the premises that a great launch day will in the long run be better for Illuvitars. What if alpha was done as a presale before launch day? You can’t open alpha d1sks until normal d1sks are available, everyone can participate in launch day and it's more inclusive.

[slow night]

Another question I have, that was probably answered a lot of times already. But I'm not sure what the answer is.

Why are the prices in ETH?

• they will be adjusted if ETH spikes (per founders)
• isn't it harder for web2 people to imagine the price
• will it ever be possible to buy the d1sk with just your visa or a credit card?

[wraith quarry]

So I’ve seen some worries about secondary driving away primary sales and just wanted to mention our fuel system which is set up to be reactive to secondary market prices and general demand to encourage people to still go out and travel to captures illuvials.

While I have issues with this system and various vulnerabilities it creates I want to know why illuvitars are not being treated in the same way?

Why are we setting a value that’s inflexible if our ethos with illuvials is that it isn’t our decision to determine for players and collectors what illuvials are worth?

So here we are now deciding what illuvitars are worth… It’s conflicting to say the least.

[sour epoch]

A short duration, unlimited mint, this shifts the entire demographic of the project, likely creates a more second class product, shifts more value to speculators (and away from the DAO) and hinders engagement of those who come later and want to play the actual collectible game. Most critically, it significantly shifts the value equation from the DAO to the speculator. While the DAO benefits from royalty resale, if this limited duration alpha price is identical to the broader set, yet the aftermarket price is 5x the non-alpha price, the speculator gets 4x the value of the DAO immediately. Each item/pack must be traded at 5x the initial price about 20 times for the DAO at the higher price to recover value lost from the initial sale.
We may learn that the pricing is off, but if we agree alpha d1sks and illuvitars inherently carry higher value to different consumers, it is in the DAO’s interest and ethos to avoid giving up that value to speculators, either from within the community or external. At a higher price, it causes speculators to pause and consider the risk versus nearly all of the lost value risk being borne by the DAO.
With nearly all purchases from this consumer coming during the alpha window, effectively it risks engagement in the broader product and collection game that we intend as the focus of Illuvium Beyond.

[thin hatch]

If a speculator decides they want to spend $X on alpha disks what does it matter if they can get 20 disks or 100 disks with that money? X = X no matter how many discs they can get with that.

I’d argue a lot more of these would be bought increasing the supply and lowering the ceiling for rare illuvitars to trade in the after market

[sour epoch]

The difference is what impact does spending $X in different configurations have on other demographics the project is trying to attract. To your point, if they are spending $X regardless, but how they do it causes a completely different type of consumer decrease their spend, or worse yet opt out of the product, that is a configuration that should be avoided.

[thin hatch]

No matter what model you choose it will effect the way people that $X is spent and cause a different consumer to adjust their strategy. I agree with this, but that works both ways, what makes the current model superior than what I proposed?
I’m just trying to understand. I want what’s best for the project too

[shut anchor]

they will never go for unlimited mint, defeats the purpose of their desired value

[sour epoch]

Not sure everyone wants another full page response from me, but I see the unlimited, same price, short duration model reducing engagement of status seekers, causing greater segregation between those interested in alpha vs non-alpha product, and having a negative impact on the value of the non-alpha set, in addition to DAO lost value as I outlined. Just like T4 land, there's potentially an element of exclusion, but that can be rationalized with "but I was priced out anyway, my game is all about non-alphas." There's a lot of consumer psychology at play. I may not be correct, but the model I'm applying is trying to evaluate the impact on all potential consumer demographics of this product. I haven't seen an argument for the other proposed solutions that applies the same lens, nor have I seen an alternative that in my mind doesn't decrease DAO value and/or reduce engagement from other types of consumers.

[slow night]

To add to this question - If we sell 500k packs in wave 1. With certain probability how many duplicates of the rarest of 150 illuvitars will there be?

Like for the top 5 rarest cards do we expect to have 3 of them? 10 of them? 50 of them?

[dawn badge]

So whats the final say? Will we be able to buy alpha mega disks with silv2?

[slow night]

Yes, as far as I know. Only misprints are going to be purchasable only with ETH. (That's not confirmed by the council yet, but is the current idea)

[sour epoch]

that was never in question. silv2 useable for all d1sk purchases. the only element i support as "eth only" is the misprints auction, as @slow night mentioned.

[shut anchor]

why would anyone buy a misprint if it didnt sell in the initial sale, hrmph lets pay even more for something noone wanted

[opaque escarp]

What? It didn't sell because no one was lucky enough to get it

[plain gull]

Missed prints are those that didn't get minted during the sale period, they don't exist yet.

[thin hatch]

I guess it just comes down to a difference in opinion. If I want my opinion to carry more weight that’s on me to campaign for a council seat.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to all my questions. I’m sure whatever is passed will work out just fine.

[raw lotus]

I think at the end of the day, all said and done, it will indeed still work out just fine

[fallow yacht]

Holy backread Batman!

So im starting to come around on this... I really like the new prices and I think with the cheaper disks the 5x spread seems better.

The one thing I just still cant wrap my head around is the limited number of alpha disks.

If we sell them at the new pricing (0.025 ETH for standard alpha and 0.025 ETH for mega alpha) why would we want to limit it to 120k of them when we could just make it an unlimited quantity for a set time period and potentially sell more?

I really dont see a situation where a lack of enforced scarcity leads to lower sales. If people are worried about the circulation being too high they can always just wait till the end of the minting period and see the supply that has already been minted to decide if they want to buy.

Nobody is going to think that a fixed supply of 120k is lower than an unlimited supply until the unlimited supply goes higher than 120k, at which point we have sold more disks than the limited mint would have.

In the case that neither sale format would sell out of the 120k disks it also prevents us from failing to mint out since there was never a limit set. Failing to mint out any set number of NFTs is always a bad look.

[slow night]

Aaron talked about that in the Town Hall this morning. I think his explanation is really good.

'Illuvium: Beyond! | Illuvium (Co-Founder Town Hall) (Kieran Warwick & Aaron Warwick)' video at the Illuvium+ YouTube channel.

[slow night]

Sorry for spamming the same thing over and over again. But I asked some (in my opinion) valid questions above and didn't get any answers.

#1073158340512858172 message
#1073158340512858172 message

Did I ask the question in the wrong chat because it doesn't have anything to do with the IIP?
Was it something already answered before so that's why I was being ignored?
Did I asked something that will not or cannot be shared with the community?

Once again, sorry for spamming, I just want to know if that's something that's not going to be answered or I'm I asking in the wrong place because I feel it's connected to this IIP.

[arctic ivy]

The 150 I believe come out from 25 types of Illuvitar, each one has two different expressions and a holo variant. And each of those 75 has an alpha variant. The math on 9-15 is just the probability distribution based on the 120K being minted of alphas of any individual type not being minted. The individual rarities haven’t been announced but I believe has been confirmed that they would be before the sale by Aaron. My very rough back of the envelope calc says the chance of each individual misprint decreases slightly but not by much. Maybe it’s 8-14 instead of 9-15 but wouldn’t be that much.

[stiff linden]

As for prices in ETH:
Part of the reason I got into crypto is to break away from the fiat systems we currently have, this was a major allure for me considering the state of financial systems across the world even though I’m the states and have a relatively stable one but do I think that will be forever no and crypto help move the world forward to not being dependent on a broken financial system IMO.
The UI will have the USD price right there with it so a user sees exactly how much that current price of ETH > USD conversion will be at that time.
As for prices being adjusted that would be something for council and community to decide but my opinion of that I expressed earlier in voice chat as you need to look at like this: if ETH drops by 50% by the time of the sale that brings D1sk price to like 4$ in USD which isn’t a bad thing for a web2 user who’s considering things in USD prices and even if your sitting in you can still buy more eth cheaper to buy more D1sks. If it spikes in price to the upside yes people may buy less that are on the sidelines in usd but eth holders still have the same buying power and it’s better for the DAO considering the proposal to swap the eth to usd.
As for buying with a credit card, binance connect facilitates this in a roundabout way with fiat buying through binance I know the team would like to make easy credit card tx direct and easier in future but that just has to be developed out more.

[plush remnant]

It’s priced in eth. But then it gets converted to USD and sILV2 prices as well. Probably because the DAO accepts eth as payment for everything

[latent mural]

About your questions:

1. Effectively you want to know the drop rates. I am not sure if that is a good idea. Not saying it isn’t, but usually the drop rates are a thing the community calculates through analysis during the sale. I have asked the council what level of knowledge they want to divulge.

Anyone with half a brain could probably reverse engineer a rough system based just on the my statement that would get close. So I don’t know. It depends on what is the best for the DAO really.

I think sometimes people forget that. We look at this from a DAO perspective and usually that means align with the community. However, the community isn’t a monolith. Some people (like me) love the idea of alphas and how they allow two different types of consumer to participate. Since they allow the price point to reduce (for non alpha) the general collectors seem much happier, and there are many of them. Some of the hardcore flippers disagree. I think they saw this sale as free money and now less so. I don’t see why, because there will be far fewer people that have what they have, so maybe it is just a fear of the unknown.

In any case it’s always about the DAO. Not the whales, not the minnows, not the flippers. And really the DAO is all about finding a good balance of all them.

I must say I’m definitely more in sync with the mindset of the minnows and maybe that’s my bias. We all have blind spots.

And now I forget your second question.

2. Why are priced in ETH? Because the DAO is global. Eth is the currency of the network we are on. One of the biggest valid reasons people hate crypto is because the see everyone reverting back to fiat currency to get rich. Which means that those people don’t really believe in ETH. We should be looking to find ways to give ETH utility. You don’t get that by constantly pegging things.

And also, to what currency? If we peg it to one, it can still fluctuate to others. Do we allow stable coin purchase for every country? It seems ridiculous.

In any case that is my personal opinion. I’m more of a crypto purist. But I’m all ears for suggestions. Especially for wave 2 where people will have much more informed opinions. That probably frustrates me the most. People very uninformed making blanket statements as if they have all the info. I get it, you guys don’t know everything about the product. But it will take a full sale before even I know exactly what we are working with. I just wish people wouldn’t get so personally offended when a system isn’t exactly what they want. Especially before they have played with it.

For example I think the biggest annoyance post launch will be the time it takes to open packs. I do want to improve that over time but at least for this sale I think it will be good to feel a little raw (and slower like a normal pack of cards)

[feral snow]

We've made a couple minor revisions to the current draft.

1. Time period for the alpha sale changed from 7 days to 3 days.
2. The contents of a Mega Disk will now include a guaranteed rare Illuvitar, instead of a guaranteed rare item. This means the guaranteed rare can no longer be an accessory.

[shut anchor]

but can there be more than one rare or does the points system not allow that?

[gaunt topaz]

I’ve been reading this long thread and just wanted to add that I endorse this proposal in full, as there have been some comments about people not voting for the whole proposal change or not knowing what they’re voting for - I did. Originally I had very little interest in Illuvitars. Thought I might get one for prosperity. However, with the recent changes I will spend a LOT more now with the collections plus I will buy some alpha for prosperity. Two adjusted behaviours that will benefit the DAO. Will this translate broadly to others - no idea. Were mistakes made in the comms on this - yes, and we will learn from them as a community. Looking forward to the launch 🎁

[wraith quarry]

I mentioned this earlier and wanted to directly ask you considering the topic of this post. With illuvials we are not setting prices in stone, neither in stables or eth with the variability of fuel prices because we don’t want to tell people and can’t tell them what they are truly worth.

While I see good and bad points to the system, it is the system that the DAO has chosen for illuvials/traveling. It matches that ethos of it’s up to players and the community to help guide the prices.

So in that regard I’m surprised we don’t have a similar fluctuating system beyond acknowledging eth fluctuations and stablecoin true value fluctuations.

With land we did dutch auction to let purchasers decide as well what it was worth to them.

So is it purely the matter of effort to re-implement these systems for illuvitars or some other rationale along the lines of knowing roughly what trading card packs sell for and that those price ranges typically work for good and successful games. And yes I know it isn’t purely a ccg or future tcg. It’s a pfp project too, just for this question more focused on ccg/tcg aspect.

Thanks for taking the time to work with everyone as always and hope we succeed no matter how things end up.

P.S. I am largely happy myself with the current changes and just looking for clarification and rationale.

[true reef]

There are no times on the proposal.

How long is:

• launch party
• alpha sale
• the sale in it's entirety

[sour epoch]

Details on launch party TBD
Alpha sale now proposed as 3 days or until sold out
Wave 1 will be 3 months.

[ocean echo]

How do we get the the 150 unique portraits from the initial 25 wave.. still confused lol.. 25 illuvials holo version of each, how many backgrounds and expressions per?

[raw lotus]

25 illuvials
each has a normal facial expression and 2 alternative expressions (3 total)
25 x 3 = 75

75 x 2 = 150

the thing that doubles it im not sure on, but a holo and a non-holo version makes sense (someone correct me if this is incorrect)

with the different background and all the accessories available in total ends up trillions of combinations theoretically

[feral snow]

Background is the x2

Accessories bring up to trillions of potential combinations though

Don't check my math on trillions, it's a big number I didn't count the zeros

[latent mural]

No, holo vs non holo is the other.

25 illuvials. 3 expressions. 2 finishes.

Backgrounds are another random element. There are a LOT of them but they aren’t what we consider part of them being “unique” for Missed Prints or there will be hundreds of thousands of missed prints.

[latent mural]

Since they are a single item (ok there are 4 D1sks) it didn’t feel like there was much point. Illuvials have so many factors that go into their catching.

Missed Prints are done via auction.

Had we Infinite time maybe we would have looked at it. I don’t know. We have many waves. Maybe someone else will have an idea of a better (and easy to implement) way of doing it.

[wraith quarry]

Completely acceptable answer for me. Thanks again.

Now, Wen metal posters and complementary physical card packs :p

[outer mountain]

Listening to the Town Hall...haven't we already created a product for the 'Alpha' target market through Illuvium: Zero? I feel like Illuvium: Beyond is for those that want a lot for a little (the opposite approach) AND are excited about the future TCG. As such, I think 1st editions should be limited, sure, but don't charge more for it since this project definitely feels like its for a different target market (which is what we want right)?

I strongly believe this split approach reduces the quality/efficacy of the product/offering.

[latent mural]

I don’t understand your point with Illuvium: Zero. Is it because it is in “Alpha” at the moment? If so the word means different things in different context.

As to the second point of it reducing the quality of the project… I very strongly disagree.

If we price everything cheap enough to get everyone playing and having fun with Beyond then the rarity will be low because there will be so many of them. But that is the ONLY way to have a quality product. There has to be a good mix of cards. Maybe there aren’t 1 of EVERY card but that’s ok because you don’t NEED holos to fill a collection. So we get people playing and having fun and interacting and trading. That is how we make the product high quality.

But if there aren’t any rare editions then the extreme collectors have nothing to shoot for where they can say “mine is different than yours”. Yes, it is artificial but this isn’t physical cards. You’ll never have a lowered supply. (People mention someone can lose their keys, but nobody else will care because the supply will have a big fat number in Immutascan that say how many exist).

In real cards they get printed in a fixed qty. and they get sent around the world. They are the same price usually, but they don’t have to worry about a “bot” buying all the supply instantly. A bot can’t buy all the packs in Germany and USA and Brazil, etc. but some DO try and they hoard them and try to extort people.

If we had a limited run at the same price and then after sold an infinite (say, tag the first 10,000) then I can guarantee you what would happen is they would sell out INSTANTLY and we’d have people here furious at me that the bots took the cool shit and jacked up the price. That’s what some people are angry about. They wanted to be those bots so they could grab it all and jack up the price.

Whitelists don’t work well. So another way to mitigate this and split the different buyers is to increase the price of the first ones. They don’t give more power. They are just rare. It puts people into a different frame of mind. “I might buy 10 or so packs as alpha” and then I’ll just get normals. Rather than “I will slam that but button for 10 mins and hope I get as many as I can, and when I don’t, or someone DDOSES the system and takes all the supply I’ll rage at Aaron for not thinking these things through.

Now, am I right in the solution we picked? I think so but I could be wrong. But without even a gas delimiter as with other big sales I think the OTHER way would be catastrophic for anyone who doesn’t have the tech skill to set up dozens of accounts and bot their way into that first 100k.

This way? I think we might see the sale last at least a day. Which means everyone gets a chance if they want to spend more on a rare collectors item.

And if they didn’t sell out? Say only 10k got sold because everyone wanted to go ham on normal packs? Well then that’s a win for those flippers because now their rare purchase is even rarer!

[tall shuttle]

Hmm, so if we don't like the background are we stuck with it? I'm imagining having the only misprint and not liking the background.

[drifting ingot]

Since they are auctioning off the Missed Prints, they are probably going to show you what you are bidding on. Example of this is the T5 plots. They were randomly generated on the system for when they thought they were doing the auction along with the rest of the land sale.

[latent mural]

That is correct. If people didn’t like that (which I personally do because it means a good random sample) then they could petition for a chance to buy backgrounds and update theirs. I think that might be a bad idea.

[latent mural]

Haha. About that…Internally that isn’t decided.

1. know the background and it loses the lustre during auction.

2. don’t know, and you might get something you don’t like.

Happy to hear opinions on that. Both have merits. I don’t feel strongly on either.

Edit: Slow mode is 5 mins now. <@&795142782133207063> if you hate it let me know. But I think we have a more rational discussion now.

[outer mountain]

Appreciate your thorough response 👍 .

In regards to Illuvium: Zero, I meant that it already has a high price tag to participate (which is already a huge flex within our illuvium ecosystem of games). As such, we have yet to release the ultra cheap product (which I thought was Illuvium: Beyond) with our medium product being Illuvium: Overworld (I'm referring to participate/play costs for all three examples).

So my overall point is that the whales can be whales with illuvium: Zero OR they can be whales by collecting everything AND buying/trading for 1st editions as a bonus flex.

To perhaps provide an alternative solution, what if a limited number of 1st Editions were provided at random within the discs? Small small percentage chance to get it. Doesn't matter if it's the first day or the last day of a wave release so the "chance" to get one extends the whole time.

This way,

1. Rarity isn't based on financial ability
2. There's an extra added "what if" when opening (and then buying more because a 1st edition is probably in the next pack you buy)
3. Still limited number of 1st editions
4. "Alpha" can refer to the first wave ever released
5. All future waves are set up the same
6. AND THE BIGGEST REASON is that it would drastically increase buying pressure throughout the whole wave/set period (every...single...wave)

To me, I feel with the current setup, we will get a hot flash of sales and then the buying pressure dies. I'd rather of a strong and stable buying pressure. I believe this is what every healthy business should aim to accomplish (not saying we aren't already though; but why not make it healthier).

I'm just thinking that with my set up, the whales would just end up buying 100x more than everyone else with the discs all at the same low price thus getting us ultimately to the same destination.

Don't get me wrong, i REALLY want the treasury to get it's $15mil. but why not just add even more incentivization (in addition to the holos) to the normal discs for the entire duration of the wave versus offering it to a specific small group of people who MUST take action in the first 3 days...

Limiting audience and market timeframe doesn't seem like a good idea. After the 3 days, any new "whales" probably will end up not even trying to play Illuvium: Beyond since they'll see "all the rare stuff is gone already"...

[latent mural]

It’s definitely not a bad idea. Way better than some of the others that have been suggested. It goes against the name of “alpha” a little bit, but this is actually why I chose a more vague name rather than “first editions”.

I’m not convinced it sells more. But the problem is we only get one chance. So we won’t ever know. The good thing with doing a different system is that I can’t be blamed!

[wraith quarry]

I will personally say that alpha cards aside the pure fact that a tcg is as good as inevitable and prices being near standard card pack prices now for regular packs will go massive lengths in pumping sales.

Personally plan on buying again with price reductions and future tcg plans.

@latent mural If we really think about it, illuvitars will be in a kind of alpha/beta state right now anyways so applying alpha status to the whole first set is pretty marketable imo.

I also think we still have a clear and fair opportunity to have the 150 1/1 misprints or something very close to that be the true high value collector draw in and mostly satisfy everyones conditions.

Again though, will say it’s in a much better state than it was a few days ago so personally accepting if current state goes through.

[odd lance]

Maybe if the Alphas don't sell out in the first three days we could sell the rest in the way as described by @outer mountain in future waves? We could even sprinkle a few of the DAOs promotional Wave 1 Alpha Disks into future waves. Maybe even in the first wave if technically still feasible? I guess many currently opposed to Alpha Disks will like them much more if they now also have a chance to get them.

[latent mural]

Well I think that wouldn’t be fair. I think that would be worse than either solution.

If they don’t sell out then the people who bought should absolutely get to take advantage of them being even more scarce.

[odd lance]

Okay, maybe just a small percentage of what hasn‘t been sold to achieve some balance between the different target audiences? Or just the promotional disks? Just a small chance to get an Alpha disk in the normal sale might be a good promotion and won‘t anger the Alpha whales.

[latent mural]

I will do some thinking. Keep in mind I am not on the council. At the end of the day what they say goes. Although I do think they have accommodated my bullshit pretty well in the last 2 years.

[thorny cave]

Hello. This will be my last post on this topic.

I've realized that:

1. I've been grinding the gears of everyone in this chat, that's less than 0.1% of the total community, so it's futile to continue to do so.
2. Illuvitars will be a success with or without alphas. I was arguing for maybe 2-5% difference of outcome, that is not worth it.
3. If I think alphas are the better product I should just buy those and not try to give it to everyone. This will improve what I get in the end. I was trying to give something to people who never asked for it. Even if that was better for them, I cannot force it upon them.
4. My trust in the team was never questioned. I was voicing my opinion for improvement not for critique.

Thanks to everyone who stayed civil in this conversation and brought well thought out arguments.

[odd lance]

Basically we could distribute some value that the whales produced back to people like Ned, who feel their value has been reduced by introducing this new higher tier. They would also now have a genuine interest in the alpha sale to become a big success. If everyone is happy with their perceived value they will all buy more and in the end we might all profit from a change to the original sales plan, even if some group's value has potentially been reduced by it on first sight.

[solid valve]

Hey guys, so is the definite price of an alpha mega d1sk still approx 2.5 sILV2 ?
Sorry if these are redundant questions but : would those paying sILV2 burnt (reducing therefore the total ILV supply ?)
Is this still true that sILV2 is meant to be = to ILV and through which mechanism ? (Atm it is more ILV/2)
Thanks for your answers

[dense gorge]

In the current proposal that price is about correct at this moment, but it is dependent on the price of ILV at the time of your purchase. As sILV2 when used inside the illuvium ecosystem, has the same value as the ILV token at that time.

Maybe better to use the #💰〕token channel to discuss further though mate. 👍

[minor helm]

Seems like the plan has improved a lot over the last few days.

Particularly mega disks always having a rare illuvitar.
The changes have been enough to return most of the initial excitement, for me at least. So that’s a good thing.

In the land sale we had Kieran and Polemos sweeping up large numbers of lands.

Will be interesting to see what happens here with this sale.

I do think a council decision about whether to go ahead with a TCG would have been a good thing before 7th March.
As it stands, it is just going to be assumed that there will be a TCG, and people will buy accordingly.

[dawn badge]

I did like the idea of a % of getting an alpha innregular disks

[civic anchor]

@chilly helm and I agree on something. It must be correct

[marsh pine]

https://tenor.com/view/doubt-press-x-la-noire-meme-x-button-gif-19259237

[whole star]

We could have a special missed print background...

[arctic ivy]

You know any talented artists who could do something like that ser?

[mild plank]

sure this has been asked before but the missed prints auction is only for alpha since there will be probably no missed ones on the regular wave 1 sale right?

[thorny cave]

I wish my mind could, but it couldn't stay away from this topic.

I heard and agree that in governance we must reach a compromise. And I don't know why we didn't think of this before. We can just do both things.

1. Have alpha disks as they are => people are happy.
2. Add a separate tag for people that open during the launch party => even more people are happy.

P.S. yes this means there can be "alpha" + "launch party" illuvitars. But giving incentive to people to open their alpha disks will mean, that maybe not most of them will remain closed. And people will have incentives to buy regular disks early.

P.S.2 As both ideas were bringing something good to the table. We probably should have thought of a way to use all benefits, not fight over them.

[odd lance]

The best solutions are almost always the combination or synthesis of some extremes. It is usually never good to think in black or white. If it is a launch party tag, distributing some alpha disks during the normale sale, giving out some alpha disks as album completion goals or something else we haven't thought about yet. As long as we can give everyone the feeling he/she can achieve what only the richest can afford, we keep everyone in the boat.

[drifting ingot]

Alphas to start the sale and Missed Print Omegas to end it? Haha

[whole star]

I would suggest organizing a missed print sale at the end of Set 1 instead of every wave, make it a much bigger community driven event with perhaps a bunch of other fun things we can attach to it.

[odd lance]

Or both: At the end of each wave for half of them and a big one at the end of the set for the rest from all prior waves when the potential buyer size has grown and we have more experience? We also don't know how the overall NFT market behaves and by having many smaller auctions and a big one at the end we could average out some market ups and downs.

[sour epoch]

Right now, it's for alphas. The hope is wave 1 is big enough that there won't be missed prints.
However, as a collecting game, it feels important that the collection is able to be completed. As such, if we get to the end of the wave and there are missing non-alphas, it feels necessary to have the auction for that as well. Still in discussion, but makes sense to me to always emphasize completion.

[odd lance]

Maybe we could have alphas for all subsequent sets, too? Sorry, I meant waves.

[sour epoch]

You're bold. Given how this discussion has gone, I'm waiting to see how the first sale goes before committing opinions on what to do in the future.

[wraith quarry]

1/1 promo feels like a safer label especially if you decided to continue on with it for all waves. Or just limited edition. Collectors would potentially respond better to more familiar labels too.

[outer mountain]

Did you see my post above with my conversation with aaron? Just thought I'd point it out as he said that I need to try and convince council members not him lol

[sour epoch]

I did, and it's actually something discussed with council this week. I'm not personally convinced and we collectively haven't aligned to this change. Random super rarity in the main set effectively is higher tier holos, so another random tag is just a flex above that.
Maybe I'm too much the economist, but I believe the current configuration is more optimal for the DAO and attractive to various potential customer groups. I'm happy to be overruled by my fellow council members, but I'm not convinced. See my responses to Nijafe above for my rationale. Applies here as well.

[outer mountain]

I think rather than focusing on a single demographic, having random 1st gens (limited in number) in certain packs throughout the wave period encapsulates both audiences at the same time.

1. The collectors have chances to finish out their collections while getting the high of luckily getting holos and 1st editions (without feeling like they are excluded)
2. The whales continue to buy extreme amounts of packs chasing just holos and 1st editions

Again, I think having not only a stable buying pressure, but a thriving one the whole length of the wave period allows word to spread around to build hype AND when new people come in, they won't feel like "all the good stuff is gone already".

By making alphas limited to 3 days, you are excluding certain target markets that will be looking at our project afterwards.

[sour epoch]

Differences of opinion and totally valid arguments. I still disagree and believe holos fulfill the ultra rare role throughout, and the low price point and collection element drive interest through the duration of the wave.
It would be possible to add additional incentives or challenges to complete collection elements throughout to drive and rekindle interest.
The short term, limited edition offers value to certain individuals beyond the added rarity throughout.
I'll quote Nijafe's Twitter survey- there is a decent percentage that appreciates the flex of "I was there first" versus getting randomly lucky throughout the first 3 months.

[outer mountain]

Hmmm maybe the randomness of 1st editions is weighted more towards the beginning of the wave and drops off as it gets close to the end? I just truly think that making it a 0% chance for new people at the end of wave 1 to get 1st editions will impact sales a lot and changing the core mechanics will make it where we won't have to add additional incentives or challenges.

Holos I feel are just another layer and having more layers in our core offering seems like the way to drive lots of sales.

1. Layer one: collections
2. Layer two: 1st editions
3. Layer three: holos
4. Layer four: 1st edition holos

You take out 1st editions from the 99% of the wave and you won't get the depth of sales that you could. (granted, I know you are in the boat to just front load it, but then 99% of the wave is impacted which I don't agree with)

[outer mountain]

I think there is a flaw in your argument as, even in my idea, there are a limited number of 1st editions. So that 1st edition offers the same value to those certain individuals "alpha" is trying to please regardless of whether it's at the beginning (restricted to 3 days) or at the end of the wave (if we go with the weighted idea, it's all the more exciting to pull one)

[sour epoch]

The difference may also be the higher revenue from the short duration limited sale, enabling higher immediate value to the DAO. While people don't want to say it, there is an element revenue optimization.

[slow night]

Thank you for answering.
Yes, first one was basically question about drop rates. And I understand if you or the council don't want to share them. I was just interested to know if that is something that will be shared or not and the reason why not. I disagree about not sharing that is a good idea, but I trust you and your judgement.

What I strongly disagree with is that "anyone with half a brain" could reverse engineer the system.

As far as I know the only information we have is that there is 150 combinations of Illuvitars in Wave 1 (you shared that during the town hall the other day, I haven't heard that before). Not even the members of the council knew how we got to that number of 150 Illuvitars so it's really hard for someone else to know that. But now we know that as well because you confirmed it. Apart from that we also know that there are Illuvitars that are not rare and there are Illuvitars that are rare. We don't know how many types of rares and not rares there are. We don't know if tiers and stages play a part in that and how. (When I say we don't, I mean I don't because I'm not aware it was shared)

I would say it's pretty hard to reverse engineer anything even with the whole brain when you just don't have enough information.

I wasn't saying anything bad about alphas or anything, I'm convinced they are a good idea, I was just asking extra question about the numbers you shared:

You said the number of Missed Prints will be around 9-16. How is that number changed not that we have at least rare Illuvitar in every Mega pack? In your calculation, how many Alpha D1sks are opened before the misprints auction?
Can we know how many regular D1sks are expected to be open in the first Wave? If there is 250k open, what are the chances of having a non-alpha misprint? How that changes if 500k are open or 1m? If million packs are open, what are the chances of 1 card existing only once.

Basically, is there more information that can be shared?

Thank you once again

[dawn badge]

So many proposals and ideas im lost i dont know whats going on anymore 😅

[stiff linden]

https://tenor.com/view/wolf-of-wall-street-jordan-belfort-leonardo-di-caprio-one-of-us-jonah-hill-gif-5441859

[dawn badge]

In @latent mural we believe.... whatever he thinks is best should be decided.
I only have 1 request... dont turn this into moneygrabbing project cuz thats the one thing illuvium is not.
Do not ruin it for us pls.

[outer mountain]

Ya this is us looking at short term then rather than long term. The short term solution for runway was the allocation of funds from illuvitars to the safety pool. Now we are taking an even more short term change to try and accommodate that short term decision.

Why not go with a long term vision for the product and keep the need for short term allocation of funds separate?

I see the current set up as a form of desperation. Let’s keep instilling confidence instead.

[whole star]

Seriously never our intention with anything we do

[wraith quarry]

Put alphas in standard packs with a bonding curve, sell 150 1/1’s with an auction and raffle off the right to take the warwicks out to dinner? Sounds like a win win to me.

[sour epoch]

Agree to disagree. While revenue is currently going to safety pool, optimizing revenue and perception should always be a priority. An argument can be made whether it's cash grabby, though i still prefer to look at it as a separate collectors edition product with a higher introductory price point.

[outer mountain]

Stamp them with "Collectors Edition" on there instead then and don't call it "Alpha" anymore? Call it what it is and let's just get rid of 1st editions? Or maybe do my idea for them with the standard packs?

I'd bet many of us are just struggling with the "1st Edition" part of it. The concept of "Alpha Discs" now makes WAY more sense since you've called it collectors edition....that makes me want to increase the price back to 5x...mind blown I now 100% would bet that if "Collector's Edition" was used instead that it would bring a community understanding to all of what "Alpha" is really trying to achieve.

[outer mountain]

@arctic ivy Could I have your thoughts on this? (since you're online :P)

[dawn badge]

Sell regular disk and mega disk set 1 wave1 for 3 days with 5 x the price and put an OG stemp on it. And in the future OG-s will be eligable for a skin airdrop or smth similar.
🙂 or just do ur thing i dont care . Im gonna love the project anyway 🙂

[oak shuttle]

I really like this TBH. I was going to try and be quiet and I really doubt this type of change would come about. I'm fine with all of the compromises and know everyone is not going to be satisfied with whatever is the end result. I also appreciate the process and how this thing has been overall very civil and evolved into something that the community can get behind.

I would love to make Launch Day something special and not just for people that want the stamp and willing to pay the premium for it. So I would prefer something like byrami suggested to create more of a separation between products (premium and normal).

Alphas of Set 1 Wave 1 (get the stamp) for 3 days of Launch Party. Set 1 Wave 2 after those 3 days. Set 1 Wave 1 (without stamp) gets a reprint without alpha sometime in the future.

Not only are you getting a stamp you are getting early access to Illuvitars that will be re-released at a later date (feels more "Alpha")

[slow night]

Will every Illuvitar show the date it was opened on? Like will somebody in the future be able to see that Illuvitar was opened on day 1?

[latent mural]

Isn’t that…what the plan is?

[latent mural]

It’s the blockchain. Yes.

[latent mural]

You’ll have to explain that. Seems you are talking two different things.

[stiff linden]

[VOTING] IIP-30 Proposal for the Sale of Illuvitars

[blissful gull]

The "open date" would just be the date the Illuvitar is minted. Opening a D1sk burns the D1sk NFT and mints the Illuvitars and Accessories 🙂

[neat basalt]

do the misprints auction include unopened packs or only opened?

[harsh yacht]

only opened, as unopened you don't know what is inside

[oak shuttle]

I think they are different but similar. I do think we can get the most value out of Wave 1 if it is used for a premium product and a normal product. So re-releasing wave 1 later without stamp just not right after the 3 days as planned now.

I get we want to perhaps to alpha other waves so my idea wouldn't work if that is the case. I don't have all the details about launch and album so my perspective might be wrong.

But I want launch day of Illuvium:Beyond to be special for the collections game and the gamers, and to really pull people into the album collecting game. I think alpha has the potential to hurt that a little, since for example I will not want to bond accessories on my alpha Illuvitars, but would be more willing if it's the only way to make my collection work. Say I need a wave 1 alpha to complete a page, and do not want to wait for wave 1 non-alpha to be released.

As I see it now launch will be too focused on speculators and a different target market then our core market that Illuvium:Beyond was designed for.

[tall shuttle]

100% it should. That way if someone else unboxes the same ultra rare Illuvitar in the future from an unopened D1sk making it a 1/2, only the missed print would have the unique background. So there's still some prestige built in.

[whole star]

https://tenor.com/view/theodoros-gif-18371963

[latent mural]

My concern here was extra work for the art team but Rogier seems on board.

[calm ginkgo]

Exactly. Who wants to spend that much to get ultra rare just to have it not be ultra rare 6 months from now. I think the price would be higher with a unique background.

[whole star]

always up for more work woop woop!

[latent mural]

Sorry. I still have no idea what you are trying to say.

[arctic ivy]

I agree with the idea that I view it more as 'Collector's Edition'. That said, in this case 'Alpha' means first. It's chronologically the first grouping that's on sale. The concept of 'Alpha' also appeals to many in the NFT/Web3 space so I don't see it as a problem to use that term here. I wouldn't mind either way but I don't see it as a major issue that needs to be changed. Just my thoughts.

[outer mountain]

What about wave two? Are we gonna have another alpha for wave two? That’s just confusing.

I see it more as a collectors edition option that you can buy with each wave. Alpha isn’t something a company brands itself, alpha is already the description of the very first set released by a company.

I think this decision to jumble and misuse the words alpha and 1st edition is going to cause headaches in the future…

[blissful gull]

A change the Council made to the proposal is that Alpha D1sks retain their ability to be unopened and you are not being forced to open them at any point.

[dawn badge]

Misprints:
Any Illuvitars not revealed in the first 3 months from the sale date will be considered "Misprints" and exceptionally rare. These misprints will be auctioned off after Wave 1 of the sale.

This has nothing to do with oppening our disks right?
Its just saying that if from the opened ones there are no such illuvitars will be considered misprints... but someone who hasnt open their disk can still get those missing illuvitars ?

This line confused me sorry i guess i havent understood it
Thumbs up from me then

[spring hawk]

When will the non-alpha disks be sold? At the same time as the alpha disks, after the alpha disks are sold out, or only three days later (even if the alphas are already sold out beforehand)?

[harsh yacht]

That is not true anymore

[plush remnant]

It would be possible for someone that held an unopened d1sk to reveal a second copy of a misprint (or more than one technically). But that is why this line of thought was brought up #1073158340512858172 message

[blissful gull]

After the 3 month sale period ends, if there are still any unique Illuvitars (Illuvial + expression + holo/non-holo) which have not been minted, they will be auctioned off as a misprint.

But yes, someone who hasn't opened their D1sk could possibly mint one of those misprint combinations.

But there was a few comments from Aaron and Rogier just a few minutes ago... and those Misprints they auction may have a special background just for Misprints.

[latent mural]

Within a few minutes of sell out.

[arctic ivy]

I think at the moment it makes sense to observe how Wave 1 goes before finalizing plans for Wave 2. Nothing is locking in for that sale and if we find that certain elements do not work well or are confusing then we can certainly adjust. In fact, that flexibility for having a very long term, sustainable plan and also being willing to shift when needed is exactly a core strength of Illuvium overall.

[dawn badge]

The special backround i think is the best solution to seal this illuvitars issue.. i think everyone did a great job at finding a middle ground for everything 🙂

[calm ginkgo]

I missed something? This is getting hard to keep up to. 😂

[flat karma]

Will there be a rarity chart?

[outer mountain]

If you have more money, you have higher rarity. There you go.

[slow night]

#1073158340512858172 message

You can read here Aaron thoughts about that.

[flat karma]

I think this idea is very sound! The lottery mechanism will keep sustained buying pressure. The added incentive of the possible added value makes opening every disk more exciting i.e. like a slot machine! The trill of the chase is what makes Social media addictive never knowing whats coming when ever you refresh or scroll. Cudos!

[wraith quarry]

A big issue with alpha that goes towards doing either simultaneous alpha and normal sales or not doing alpha at all is the fact that we have what we’re calling a launch party. This should be an exciting event for everyone, however, it can’t be because the event isn’t for everyone, it’s for the high end collector group.

If you are someone who is excited about illuvitars or just curious about it and want to get the regular packs you are stuck there just waiting and watching.
That’s not nearly as fun as being able to participate simultaneously with the higher end collectors.

So as I write this out I find myself wanting it to be done such that they can both start, alpha/collectors edition and normal packs, at the same time and really help with excitement and engagement.

The stream/event itself can focus entirely on the big deal sales and still do fine. It can also have fallback if there are lulls there where instead people sending in their rare or favorite pulls and configurations from the regular packs can be shown and discussed.

Just another possibility. Pros for alpha first of course is giving more time for people potentially interested in illuvitars a chance to see them before the normal packs launch and get in on it right away with everyone else.

[plush remnant]

FOMO should not be overlooked as a driver of sales. Even secondary sales. I suspect there will be plenty of alpha illuvitars and certainly alpha accessories for sale at lower than alpha disk prices. Possibly closer to standard disk prices. I mean if I paid for a pack of 5 things I should not expect to sell all 5 things at 1/5 the value of the pack. I think it will be a lot more all-play then you might imagine. That doesn’t even consider sILV2 flippers.

[shut anchor]

Nothing wrong with an alpha d1sk, just the naming is poor. Intended to retain its overpriced value long term "First Edition" inscription is just IMO wrong... You dont like "Founders Edition" or my favorite "Flex Edition" inscriptions, perhaps you can inscribe and call it "Collectors Edition" which straight to the point to the person who this is intended for. As for price..., I dont think a collector collects anything based on value, just that its valuable and desired. setting this collectible at too high a price, will always be known to collectors in this regard, which IMO risks the collectors interest. It should be set at what is considered the standard out on the town currency cost at the maximum x2, so no more than .125, but more so around the .1 eth range. You have to create market, not fabricate one. With few or no collectors there is no future, or increase in value, but also no visual gain in marketplaces and players with imaginations desiring these cards communicating. in short 101 marketing. A holo collectors edition will be the one that bring in the big bucks, and these things prices don't just make up prices themselves, they typical compute from the odds of getting a CE and the price, and a pct on top. And the very big value ones will be the very famous Illuvials everyone falls in love with. As for specified qty, i would defer my answer to someone in marketing who has sold something like this for opinion, i have no clue. also remember you might be getting a card no one wants, which can cause emotional dmg, and you dont want to insult your community base here that cant afford something they have been following and interested in because they are not financially stable. we are not all 100% healthy individuals with ability to earn, and you are going to find out in the gaming world, thats 99% of your market

[thorny cave]

I'm wondering about technical limitation to launch party goals like:
"**Open **(not mint) illuvitar disks during the launch party, to get "early bird"(or whatever other name you like) stamp on them"
I think if this is doable technically within the time we have left it will build on top of the ideas we discussed heavily in this thread.

Reasoning:

1. It will create incentives for people to open alpha/regular disks early.
2. It will reward long standing community members for their early support.
3. Does not stand in the way of this IIP, as goals in it are not set in stone.

[long helm]

Where there not a snapshot linked somewhere yesterday?

[prime fractal]

#📰〕governance-news message

[crystal scarab]

I I

[wraith quarry]

It may be better to mention this in the card game ideas thread but feel more eyes would see it here and give feedback.

What if we set up something similar to kickstarter goals with illuvitars. We have various ideas flowing for the future and how to expand it but currently there are no definites with when or if they will happen.

So thoughts here are to go along with general marketing for illuvitars is to create revenue goals that once reached will accelerate the development of various ideas, primarily for now i think the tcg, physical merchandise(something like partnering with displate to distribute 1/1 metal posters of our unique illuvitars), as well as a complementary physical card game launch to name some big ones off the top of my head.

With the focus on funding goals being reached allowing to create or hire a dedicated team we can more easily promise deliverability of these new products and potentially more rapidly develop out illuvium: beyond

Lastly bringing out this kickstarter like acceleration program(or however it would be best worded) can enhance hype and interest in illuvitars by giving consumers a clear idea of what awesome new things are coming for the product and incentivize collecting even more.

This also meets our general goals of drawing in a wider crowd. Only main concern is getting it set up, defining targets and specific plans of what we would do at each funding goal, and a minor concern about public opinion in how they would view such a campaign. <@&814435151307866142>
I would greatly appreciate your feedback specifically and any thoughts on fleshing this out. Can also start a proper thread for it if we see validity to it. Thanks.

[sour epoch]

I see what you're going for, and it's not a bad idea. The challenge is managing the current scope of 3-4 games in arena, overworld, iz and illuvium beyond. The overall goal of the safety pool is to ensure confidence to bring the current vision to fruition. Once we get there, we need to assess whether expansions of current products or new vision such as a tcg is the greatest return.
The dollar thresholds to expand scope at the point would be in the tens of millions of usd, and I'm not sure that drives much hype. Current visions remains very ambitious, and we need to ensure that is appropriately supported.

[arctic ivy]

I’ll second Deraji’s comment and suggest that my post here still captures my thoughts. #1064654433042038914 message

Yours is a good idea. And at the end we’ll have to weigh all those future options up and see what makes the most sense after we finish this round of games. But let’s keep the ideas coming.

[thorny cave]

I very much like your kickstarter goals idea. And I'm pretty sure we'll see something like it in the launch party. It's the one thing that's been kept like a surprise and I think many of us will like it.
However expanding scope is a no-no. Not yet. There are things that will weight the current team down even if a whole set of different people develops another game. Interoperability must be designed together. We must be patient. I'm sure we'll have plenty to discuss next year.

[wraith quarry]

@arctic ivy great post there that i certainly hadn’t read yet and agree with your thoughts pretty much entirely. also absolutely agree rn we have a focus of getting basic runway down pat.

And by no means are the couple ideas i mentioned for the future of illuvium:beyond the direction that it will or should go.

What I will say in general though is this thought of a public facing timeline accelerator marketing system could work really well not just for illuvitars but all aspects of the illuvium ecosystem.

If we can get clear directions and minimum funding targets for consumers and the public abroad to see we’ll greatly increase transparency and also have a very strong feedback loop of maybe consumers like where illuvitars are and really like the future plans so they spend and we can see them spending more on it while on the other hand you can have arena, or survival and over-world in various different states of enjoyment and development roadmaps and see how people respond to it with their spending habits.

This will also hopefully make the DAO and studio even more reactive so if we have ideas and plans but aren’t getting the spending we want on say over-world you can see the data and get broader feedback to change the current state and future plans and watch how consumers respond.

In some ways it sounds like it isn’t much different than what we already have but in others i think this could work out very well to direct funding appropriately to the correct products and determine what should be developed next.

@thorny cave completely agree that nothing should be started for probably another year, though it can be stated upfront with these timelines roughly when development would begin so i think we can have lots of options and flexibility here.

That’s all from me for this thread though. Further discussion can be moved elsewhere later.

Thanks for all of your responses and looking forward to the future.

[slow night]

I still have another question for the <@&814435151307866142> before we close this topic for good, and I don't want to open another topic in #1020759212172775464 before I hear your opinions.

Aaron already said what he thinks. But I want to know what you think about giving the community drop rates for the D1sks.

In some of the leaks we already saw that there will be the count of All Illuvitars and Holo Illuvitars on the site. Are you more of a fan of community finding that out by themselves or you think it's more fair to share it before. For Wave 2 and onwards we will probably know the drop rates any everything pretty much.

[feral snow]

My preference would be to display some basic odds (Tier odds, maybe expression odds). I'm not keen on a table of combined odds for all 150 Illuvitars and/or accessories. I will say that it's an ongoing discussion, and my personal preference shouldn't be weighed highly in what odds get displayed.

[fathom cedar]

I do feel odds take away some of the excitement out of the entire experience and although I agree someone will craft the odds themselves there is more breadth than you might consider. Eg since any base portrait can have 1 of 100+ backgrounds. Ur atlas odds just became super obscure. Like Blickter said I am in the camp of basic or generalised odds. Anything that gives just enough information for people to decide between standard and mega.

I don't speak for the council, there is ongoing discussions atm as Blickter said

[slow night]

When I say odds I mean we get a simple table an not the chance of getting a Giggling Krunk with Rainbow background.

But I think it would be nice if community knows is the rarity of items decided by stage, by tier or both. Are expression twice as hard to get or 10x harder. Are backgrounds the same or are there some rarer ones.

Also, I think the hype will be bigger on the launch day if you know you got something really rare and you can share it with the community. Much more then trying to figure out how rare it is for the next 10 days. Just imagine Kieran hyping out the community after pulling out an alpha that has only 1% of being opened.

[fathom cedar]

I guess thats the question. Would rarity expressed in obscure terms be enough? Because I understand where you are coming from.

Eg Atlas 1 = common, Atlas 2 = uncommon, Atlas 3 = Hyper Rare.

Instead of odds percentages/numbers

(I dont know if expressions have varying rarity)

[wraith quarry]

Basic rarity odds would be sufficient I would think at least for legal lootbox/gacha type side of things if that was any concern.

[thin hatch]

With the current proposal:

1. Will there be any T0 illuvitars in the alpha standard packs?
2. Do standard packs have a chance at a rare item? Do we have that % chance?
3. Is the guaranteed rare portrait just for alpha mega disks or for both mega disks?
4. Are the perks from the original proposal gone? Emote, skin, trip to meet cofounders?
5. For the 10 disks per transaction can you combine Mega and Standards?
6. Are alpha disks exclusive to this first wave or will there be Alpha sets at the beginning of each new wave?

[slow night]

My answers are not going to help you much as I can't confirm anything and I'm probably wrong, but as far as I know:

1. Yes, one T0 Illuvitar with alpha stamp maybe.
2. Same chance as the mega packs as far as I'm aware. We don't know any % yet.
3. Both.
4. Yes.
6. Every wave.

[thin hatch]

Thanks. Hopefully we can get some answers from the council to clarify.

[dawn badge]

I hope not every wave as it would lose the unique reason alphas were proposed ( to be first edition kind of thing)

[mild plank]

Could we get official numbers on what's the percentage to get a rare illuvial in standard discs for example? Isn't it even mandatory to have a loottable with likeliness of accuring because it's somewhat loot box gambling?

[fallow yacht]

I think everyone should require a loot table that can be tested/verified for these for accountability. What if something goes wrong?

[sour epoch]

It is being discussed with the appropriate parties on what is necessary to share.

[outer mountain]

Does Pokemon do this?

[mild plank]

not sure but for holo's you have guarantees. i think every sixth pack one holo or something like that

[prime fractal]

Does a Real Life Pack Opening do this? If you buy a Pokémon Pack you don't know how your chance is to get a shiny ... For me in don't Wanne know. And if we don't know. Maybe we buy more. 🤷🏼

[mild plank]

the reason why im interested is to try calculating if 5x standart disks are worth more than 1x mega 😛
in an ideal world mega gets around 5x the value of standart disc so one of them does not have a higher expected return

[fallow yacht]

That seems dishonest. People will still buy more hoping for even the lowest chances that are published.

Also wouldn't this mean there are people out there who do know the rates? Are they allowed to buy these aftermarket?

[prime fractal]

For me i would buy less If i knew the Chance is 0.01 for a holo If i want one. I would buy more of the standarts than. And Nobody should know that. So Nobody gets a advantage.

[thorny cave]

This is not true I think. MTG has mythic rate of 1 out of 7.4 packs and 1 out of 45 cards in boosters are foil. Gods Unchained publish all chances on every set. Here's some data about GU #🎮〕illuvium-beyond message

To me it's absolute necessity to allow people to take educated decisions on what to buy.

[fallow yacht]

How would that work realistically. Somebody will know, right?

[prime fractal]

Only Team i think. Idk i don't Wanne know that stats. I don't Wanne decide what is good or bad. I don't have enough experience in selling/Marketing... So i let people decide with more knowledge.

[thorny cave]

Even if this data is hidden, it will be figured out on the blockchain. And it will be better to buy later in a set after the odds are more clear.

[fallow yacht]

There will be folks waiting aftermarket for the rarer items to get them at a steal, especially if they know the rates.

Without this being public knowledge there's gigantic insider potential and real price discovery would be highly suspect.

At least if rates are known, the pro traders will have an idea of the real value of each tier and people can make realistic market decisions.

[prime fractal]

Yes there will always be some smart Guys that get the best Out of everything.
For me i don't Like it that so many People thinking of making Money Out of everything instead of collecting and having fun. But thats maybe only me. Idk

[thin hatch]

There’s a chance the councel knows the %’s and decides not to let the rest of community know?

[sour epoch]

As others have highlighted here, there are potential legal requirement/implications that differ across various geographies. We want to ensure what is shared is compliant, and so any official statement (which is potentially how statements from council are viewed) needs to be appropriately worded and include the correct information. Not being cagey with info, but if this starts to get into a legal realm, it's important have correct information communicated in the right way. The correct information will be shared in advance of the sale.

[thin hatch]

With the current proposal:

1. Will there be any T0 illuvitars in the alpha standard packs?
2. Do standard packs have a chance at a rare item? Do we have that % chance?
3. Is the guaranteed rare portrait just for alpha mega disks or for both mega disks?
4. Are the perks from the original proposal gone? Emote, skin, trip to meet cofounders?
5. For the 10 disks per transaction can you combine Mega and Standards?
6. Are alpha disks exclusive to this first wave or will there be Alpha sets at the beginning of each new wave?

Even if you cant answer all of these it would be helpful to get a better idea. Thanks.

[mild plank]

1. Yes
2. They do have a chance for rare item, the percentage is what we've been talking about.
3. Alpha and non alpha contain exactly the same. Just 1st edition stamp get added.

[sour epoch]

4. Yes, these have been eliminated for now. I believe Blickter shared something similar earlier, but there seemed to be insufficient value from these originally proposed perks to warrant the additional effort, so that has been diverted to the other proposed changes. Launch party promos will exist and hopefully fulfill some of this role.
5. As of now, I believe alphas are intended for future waves as well, but we can see how wave 1 goes and adjust accordingly.
   I don’t currently have the technical details for 5, or I missed it in discussions. Apologies.

[stiff linden]

5. Yes, you can buy 4 mega 6 standard etc

[thin hatch]

1-3 that @mild plank answered are correct? @sour epoch

Also, it’s 1 guaranteed rare portrait. This just means that the 1 portrait is the rare item correct? That’s not a 5th item in the mega disk meaning there would be 2 portraits right?

[mild plank]

dont you think they would have corrected me if it wasn't correct? 😅

[thin hatch]

Honestly no hahah. I asked the same questions yesterday and someone answered with different responses and those were never corrected. Just trying to clarify
Also, do we know if the alpha T0 portraits will have a 1st ed stamp on them?

[mild plank]

better safe than sorry ✅
its just that deraji kinda connected his 4. with my 3., as in tying the answers together. somewhat confirming my answer that way already 😄

[sour epoch]

Paz was right to my understanding. If i'm paying attention, I tend not to let misinformation slide. I'm a jerk like that and rarely have an issue telling someone that they are wrong. I just try to be nice about it.

[flat karma]

The chase for the surprise of recieving a rare item it seems is being over looked. The thrill of the chase is whats most important to stimulate sustained buying. Speculators are purchasing with the hopes of reciving a" Boared Ape" a super rare high value item. True collectors are purchasing with the hopes of getting something thats not a duplicate. I seems the emtions of the purchaser is being over looked, and the advantage of digital scarcity is not being taken advantage of. If we are transfering the phsyical collectible to a digital realm we have to understand the things that naturally created scarcity are lost due to everthing being on chain. It seems to me that we must maximize the use of digital scarity and make sure that the purchase ,the thrill of the chase is built in to the buying experiance. The hope for a dopamine hit must be part of the game. The chance of going from 0 to hero.

[fallow yacht]

My understanding is that we should expect quite a few 1/1 Illuvitars in the alpha set. Maybe some in the unlimited set too depending on how many get sold.

[dense wing]

What's the definition of rare now? Anything that's not a T0? Anything that's T3 above illuvial? Or are certain portraits and background have internal rarity.

[fallow yacht]

From what ive seen of people opening disks on testnet rares are T3+

I could be wrong though and Im not even sure if these variables are locked in 100% yet.

[plush remnant]

I believe it’s a power based rating system

[dense wing]

And we should have an idea about this. Packs and lootboxes clearly show what are rares (common to legendary) if we're not following the tier system then there should be an indicator.

I haven't looked into this much but deraji touched on this as well. We need to avoid it being tagged as gambling. So certain conditions and limitations needs to be considered

[wraith quarry]

Transparency is important regardless of requirements so basic rarity rates at a minimum I hope.

[sour epoch]

Council meeting in about 12 hours. Its on the agenda. The key thing is doing the right thing for the community and regulations. Risk management is a critical aspect of governance, particularly as various jurisdictions are paying attention more to the space.

[rapid spruce]

Does anyone have a tldr on why on earth they would 4x the alpha illuvitars supply? Feels like we were moving in the right direction in terms of exclusivity and a secondary market. What gives

[oak shuttle]

Pricing mostly. The original alpha with 5k, 25k supply was 5x the previous prices. So they would have been .125 ETH and .375 ETH.

[rapid spruce]

So many of em tho

[sour epoch]

see the rest of this thread of individuals advocating for unlimited alphas. compromise.

[rapid spruce]

So dumb it’s as if no one wants a secondary market

[sour epoch]

we can debate intent and rationale. my personal perspective is that unlimited mint misses the needs of rarity seekers and high end collectors, and pushes value to those here early, and hoping demand comes later to drive appreciation. It's been a full, intense week of debate on this exact topic. I'm happy with where we netted out, and we'll learn from wave 1 and can adjust in the future.

[mossy lily]

What is difference between the .oo5 std disk and .025 std alpha disk?

[slow night]

Alpha disk has the Alpha Illuvitars (Limited edition with stamp on it, just cosmetic change).

[mossy lily]

So there are 4 sets of disks going on sale?

[slow night]

First 2 D1sks - Standard Alpha and Mega Alpha for 3 days or until sold out.
After that regular D1sks for 3 months.

[mossy lily]

So first 2 disks for sale are std alpha and std megA?

[slow night]

Standard Alpha D1sks and Mega Alpha D1sks.

Both Alphas are first on sale.

[stiff linden]

[PASSED] IIP-30 Proposal for the Sale of Illuvitars

[mossy lily]

These are the more limited ones? And why are the other ones more cheaper?

[mossy lily]

WHY would you get an alpha vs a regulat kind that is 5x cheaper?

[opaque escarp]

Simply as a collectors item

[arctic ivy]

Same reason some lizards command a premium (ETH King Crowns or Rainbows or Legendaries) when they have the same utility

[dawn badge]

I think the pricing is ridiculous

We should change it and bring it down 5x

[dense wing]

Regular Illuvitars are pretty cheap, sir. Alpha was significantly lowered to be compromised to accommodate the community. If its still too expensive or not worth the price Wave 1 is still an option if you want to participate in it.

[dawn badge]

Its just a joke dude ...

[dense wing]

missed the joke 😛

[latent mural]

Power rating of 879 or higher. Power starts low (39) and goes up exponentially. The max is 3199. From there when you put Accessories on it it can go over 9000!

Note: We need to run new numbers because the d1sk quantities might have changed, and we have changed it to be always a rare Illuvial. So these numbers could change.

Power is a product of the following: Tier, Stage, ExpressionRarity, Finish + Background Tier, Background Stage. Then Accessories are multipliers. So if you get a powerful one, then you're going to want to get rare Accessories for it. As you can see, Accessories are very high powered since they can add 150% more power to your Illuvitar.

Edit: I forgot we reduce power by 1 so that the highest is 9,999 and therefore the UI is easier since we don't need to worry about 5 digits.

[outer mountain]

Did you really put the upper limit at over 9000?....I love it

[outer mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/dragonsballp-gif-5179910

[whole star]

We not 90 kids for nuthin..

[latent mural]

I dunno you tell me. Is 9,999 over 9000?

[outer mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-star-starfish-gif-26051009

[latent mural]

I was an adult when the 90s ended. Do I count?

[whole star]

yep

[sterile patio]

https://tenor.com/view/ok-okay-gokuok-goku-danielrds-gif-20976699

[whole star]

https://tenor.com/view/street-streetfighter-ryu-gif-5217654

[sterile patio]

https://tenor.com/view/street-fighter-zangief-spinning-lariat-wrestling-punch-gif-3938336

[prime fractal]

https://tenor.com/view/guile-street-fighter-gif-4431599

[outer mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/bubsy-shatter-claws-encounters-of-the-furred-kind-death-nova-gif-17169708

[whole star]

https://tenor.com/view/dinosaurs-baby-dino-dino-happy-gif-10638592

[white dirge]

https://tenor.com/view/earthworm-jim-fun-pants-off-oops-gif-16501308

[prime fractal]

Where is the Baby🤣

[eager cosmos]

if you buy alphas and don't open, they revert back to normal cards when you open right? why not hoard normal packs and don't open?

[blissful gull]

Nope, that was updated 🙂
Unopened Alpha packs remain as Alpha packs even after the sale period is over.