Help with the actual math of a build

[valid mural]

What level character are u trying to make cuz I can definitely help u optimize if that's what you're looking to do. Control casters are my favorite

[midnight prairie]

Five cause that's a really common starting point. I know not all that is accessible that early but it's more a long term plan

[valid mural]

Tiefling is a solid racial choice, Id recommend to you the Winged Variant because flight on casters is incredible. You have options depending if u wanna multiclass. Level 1 dipping Sorcerer is always great for con saves, as well as picking up Shield and absorb elements. Also Sorcerers get subclass features level 1, and it gives you a second spell list to use the cartomancer feat with, which is incredible. The downside of this is that it slows down your spells known progression so you will be learning spells a level later. Your other option is to go straight class Bard. The upside of this is that your spells known progresses faster, you'll start right out of the gate at level 5 with Hypnotic Pattern, the best control spell in the game. The downside is you'll probably have to spend a feat on Resilient con or warcaster later down the line. And you miss out on great defensive options.

For initial stats on point buy I'd go:
8 Str
14 Dex
15 Con +1 racial
8 Int
10 Wis
15 Cha +2 racial

Then at level 4 I'd grab a half feat that bumps Charisma. Fey Touched and Telekinetic are both great options there. So your level 5 stats should look like

8 Str
14 Dex
16 Con
8 Int
10 Wis
18 Cha

The Bard (and Sorcerer jf you go that route) subclasses you pick are really up to you. My recommendation is that if you go straight class you go Lore Bard to pick up those defensive spells you missed out on with the Sorcerer dip. If you multiclass, then my default favorite is Eloquence bard because their Silvery tongue ability is so damn good.

[midnight prairie]

Lmaooo the 8 intelligence feels so wrong for someone who's supposed to be good with words. Im not arguing I can make sense of it, the immediate impact is just funny

[valid mural]

That's why Charisma is important. Both in game and irl. You don't need to be smart as long as you can make people think you are

[midnight prairie]

Professional bullshitter

Also I know wild magic is unstable but it Always appeals to me when it's a subclass option

[valid mural]

Wild Magic Bard is a super fun option

Whenever you cast Shield or absorb elements

Which if you're me you do a lot

Crazy shit can happen

[midnight prairie]

Thank you very much

[valid mural]

For sure lmk if u have any more questions

[midnight prairie]

How does multiclassing work on paper? I'm looking at the level-up table for a bard. At level 6, he would have five levels in bard and one as a sorcerer if I were to dip into sorcery like that. Yes? So he would know 8 spells and 3 cajtrips as a lvl 5 bard. And 2 spells and 4 cantrips as a baby sorcerer, so 10 spells and 7 cantrips. But do proficiencies add up? Bard proficiency at 5 is +3, sorcerer at 1 is +2. Do I add them together? I am not clear on how proficiency works

Because bards get dex and cha saving throws and sorcerers get con and cha. So does the charisma proficiency stack? Would it be +5? Or do I discard the smaller one

[midnight prairie]

Also can I take a cantrip as a spell? They're listed as spells. Cantrips don't use spell slots as far as I understand, like if my bard starts with vicious mockery and bane, I can cast those at will. But can I just take a cantrip as a spell? Pick up Faerie fire and expend a level 1 slot every tome I cast it?

[valid mural]

Yes you are correct about spells known. Since you are multiclassing two full casters your spell slots are equal to the spell slots of your total level, so you'll have the spell slots of a lvl 6 full Caster, so 3 1st level slots 2 2nd level slots and 2 3rd level slots. Your proficiency bonus scales with your total level not your individual class level so it's +3 at level 6

[valid mural]

Since you're likely going Sorcerer level 1 you get Charisma and con. You don't get Dexterity proficiency and Charisma proficiency doesn't stack

Like I said proficiency bonus scales with total level

[midnight prairie]

Okay charisma doesn't stack that was the main thing. Thanks

[valid mural]

No, it specifically talks about leveled spells when talking about spells known

[midnight prairie]

The table I was looking at confusingly had some stuff listed as both lever 1 and cantrips but I think that might have been a formatting issue where the level field wasn't allowed to be blank

[midnight prairie]

In several places im seeing The racial bonus for tiefling being charisma and intelligence, not constitution. Why the mismatch? Different editions?

[valid mural]

tasha's rules say u can redistribute the stat bonus into any stat

[midnight prairie]

I like Tasha

[valid mural]

for racial bonuses

[midnight prairie]

If my wisdom stat is 11 does my skill bonus for wisdom checks go up or is it still 0. I know it's one bonus point every two stat points but I'm not clear on whether
10 = 0, 11 = 0, 12 = 1, 13 = 1, 14 = 2
Or
10 = 0, 11 = 1, 12 = 1, 13 = 2, 14 = 2

And when Jack of all trades says to add 1 to any skill check that I'm not proficient in, can I do that every time? So can I just bake it into my sheet?

For example, if asked to roll intelligence I'd be rolling with a penalty of 1. If Jack applies every tine then that penalty is zero if I can only do it once per long rest then it would be misreading to edit the sheet

Also

This doesn't say anything about feats. I'm assuming the ability improvement is an alternative if you don't want to take a feat?

[boreal nova]

it's -1 at 8, +/-0 at 10, +1 at 12, +2 at 14, etc

Jack of all trades is applied for every skill check you aren't proficient with. you add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down (so at lower levels, it is 1, but when you reach higher levels and your proficiency bonus goes up to 4, you add +2, etc when it goes higher)

[midnight prairie]

Cool. I need some more info on this

No I don't i think I got it but I wanna confirm, picture incoming

[boreal nova]

also yes, at asi levels you can take a feat or raise your stats. I'm not sure what website you're using that didn't explain that, I'd try checking things on 5etools because it will say everything and tell you the source book

[midnight prairie]

Here is my reasoning

Acrobatics is +2 because while dexterity is a proficiency of mine I am not proficient in the skill itself and don't get the bonus.
Arcana is -1 from int bc I didn't write down the jack of all trades stuff because it will change. Deception is 10 because it's a background proficiency and a charisma check so I get my charisma +4, plus my proficiency bonus, and the bonus is doubled because expertise

Am I understanding this correctly?

I also assume survival is +3 because I'm not proficient in wisdom but I am proficient in the skill itself (from background. This is silly mechanically but I build them for roleplay it makes sense for who this guy is)

[boreal nova]

14 is a +2 so acrobatics would be +3 (+1 from Jack of all trades)

[midnight prairie]

I just said I didn't write down any of the jack stuff

So ignoring that, does the math check out

Jack of all trades is half of proficiency rounded down and that'll change so I don't want to confuse myself, I'm just going to make a note to remember to add it

[boreal nova]

without joat things look accurate

[midnight prairie]

Thank you

One more thing

The initiative modifier is dexterity.

Is it just +2 bc it's 14 or do I also get my proficiency bonus because dex is one of mine

[boreal nova]

pb is not added to initiative

[midnight prairie]

Okay ty

[frosty drum]

Jack is added to initiative though since it is an ability check

[midnight prairie]

So why is proficiency not added?

It's an ability check for an ability I'm proficient in. Whereas everywhere I look it says jack is only added to skills where you don't have proficiency

[boreal nova]

bc u can't be proficient in initiative, it's not a skill you can choose

it's its own skill, not a dex save

you're proficient in dex saves, not dexterity itself

[midnight prairie]

It's not clicking but I guess it will at some point

[boreal nova]

think of it like this: you're proficient in dex saves but you're not automatically proficient in dex based skills (stealth, acrobatics, etc.). you can become proficient in them with background/class. initiative is a dex-based skill that you can't become proficient in

[midnight prairie]

Oh, okay, yes.

Although the Alert feat kinda feels like being proficient in initiative 😂

What do I write here? I'm assuming it's like, unarmed strike and my weapons (a dagger and a sling) But idk how to calculate that and the spellcasting thing throws me I have a whole other page for spells

[boreal nova]

alert just adds a flat +5, there are other things that can add to your initiative too (war wizard for example)

uhh I'm not sure how to manually fill in that sheet for spells, it looks confusing to me too lmao where's the save dc supposed to go? for regular attacks you add in the roll to hit (d20+skill modifier+pb) then damage (damage die+skill modifier)

skill modifier meaning the bonus from the stat being used in the attack, ie +2 from Dex

[midnight prairie]

Oh I know, I have an entire other page of spells that I sorted out, idk why this is here

[boreal nova]

ohh. that's generally just to put your most used spells in just to be easier to find

[midnight prairie]

The roleplay aspect is really helping with the decision paralysis. My character is a liar and a thief do I take Invisibility?
No I don't because he's a brazen liar and thief he just literally would not bother to hide 😂

[frosty drum]

You don't have proficiency in ability scores, you get proficiency in skills

[midnight prairie]

saving throws are not skills though and you can be proficient in those, the sheet has the little dot to fill in and everything.

The thing about me is being told it's like that because it's like that doesn't work, if I don't understand it I won't remember it. Please don't try again, it's a low frustration tolerance day

[frosty drum]

Point is, you're not proficient in ability checks

Yeah, you get proficiency in Saves

Those aren't ability checks

[midnight prairie]

I literally told you "it's like that because it's like that" doesn't work and that I wanted you to stop

[frosty drum]

Your assumption why it should work is that "You're proficient in dexterity"

But you're not proficient in dexterity skill checks

That's not possible

You may have proficiency in Dexterity Saving Throws

And you have proficiency in certain skills, and those skills may use Dexterity

But Dexterity skill proficiency does not exist

So you're not proficient in them. Initiative is an ability check that checks your dexterity

But there's no such thing as proficiency in initiative

So it's just your dexterity

[midnight prairie]

I blocked you, because it would've cost nothing not to insist when I asked you not to. I did ask for help but your participation was strictly voluntary and I get to be picky about the format. So I can't see any of that, you're free to say whatever you like now but it might be wasted effort.

[elder rune]

Hell of a response, very good question also

[boreal nova]

lmk if i can help with more things, hopefully my advice did not come off badly cus your questions are actually good questions (the answer to why you can't be proficient in initiative is literally just 'you can't' so ofc questioning that makes sense lol)

[midnight prairie]

If I have a problem with your answers you will be formally notified /j

It's the autism. I need to find and recognize a pattern, whether or not it's the intended pattern, or I won't remember shit. This will eventually connect to something else and be fine probably

[boreal nova]

i think that's fair tbh and prob a better way of learning new things than not questioning them, i mean i think the whole point here is you wanted to learn the mechanics yourself instead of having a website automate it so ofc asking how things work is the best way to do that... and honestly they're good questions even for seasoned players

[midnight prairie]

I have like four tabs of rules open. They slide right off my brain. It connects faster if I can ask stuff in the order i need to know it, if I'm skipping around an article it's all very disjointed bc it's not made to be read out of order

[boreal nova]

usually people never think about initiative being a skill check lol but you can add bardic insp to it too, or for example the bonus from a dhampir's vampiric bite (which is a huge thing in pvp)

[midnight prairie]

I also function better with physical items. I went to my mom's to print out a sheet because I hate pdfs. Now that I've done it on paper the pdf feels easy but I literally just had no idea where to look until it was in front of me.

If I had the handbook or the manuals I'd probably devour them like I used to do with illustrated encyclopedias as a kid

But. You know. Spensive

[boreal nova]

you can actually find pdf's for most online for free (i don't think I'm allowed to link them but a Google search will find them quickly)

[midnight prairie]

Physical items

Those fuckers are long it'll still be expensive to print them.

I'll find them second hand one day

[boreal nova]

ohh yea they are expensive lol