#New Martial Features

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hot bison
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Taking ideas from D&Dnext's playtest of Fighter, I thought of this homebrew rule applying to martial and half-caster characters (Artificer, Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue)

First off, the following subclasses get removed:

  • Artificer: Artillerist, Alchemist
  • Barbarian: Berserker, Bear Totem
  • Fighter: Champion, Battle Master
  • Monk: Open Hand, Long Death
  • Paladin: Glory, Vengeance
  • Ranger: Hunter, Beast Master (Both versions), Monster Slayer
  • Rogue: Assassin, Scout, Thief, Mastermind

In place, all classes get these features:

Battle Master: At 1st level, you gain the ability to make various attacks, allowing you to aproach any challenge with various tactics. You gain a number of warmaster dice equal to your level, and in addition, learn up to two battle maneuvers. You can expend warmaster dice in order to perform these maneuvers. Some of your maneuvers require your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver's effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:

Maneuver save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice)

The number of maneuvers you learn increases based on your level. (The idea is to get two maneuvers every two levels).

You regain all expended warmaster dice at the start of each of your turns, or whenever you finish a short or long rest.

(Maneuvers may include the generic ones that already exist in battlemaster, or some homebrew ones, as well as reworked versions of the class features from the removed classes.)

Critical Surge: At 2nd level, you feel an attunement to the ebb and flow of battle, knowing the best chance to strike at the enemy's weakest points. Once per turn, when you make an attack roll, you can choose to increase the number on the d20 roll by your proficiency bonus, potentially turning a miss into a hit. If this would cause the die roll to be 20 or higher, the attack is considered a critical hit.

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Soldier's Vigilance: At 5th level, your reaction to incoming threats is greatly improved. Opportunity Attacks no longer require your reaction. Additionally, when you make an opportunity attack, you regain hit points equal to your proficiency bonus.

marsh turtle
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And how does that feature with Sentinel?

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or GWM+Polearm

hot bison
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Vigilance?

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Sentinel should proc normally each time an opportunity attack is done

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Polearm Master would still allow opportunity attacks upon an enemy entering range but Soldier's Vigilance would prevent it from consuming up the reaction, allowing it to proc multiple times per turn.

marsh turtle
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....and this ISN'T a concern?

hot bison
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At 5th level? Not really

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You have the spellcasters throwing aoe and ccs at range

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They do far more nova damage and preemptive shut down than the fighter commanding a 10-foot radius for attacks of opportunity and exposing himself to melee, which is inherently much more dangerous

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I don't see why multiple Opportunity Attacks are a problem when you have the likes of Spirit Guardians

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It also means that there's an actual "tank" role in the party, as the fighter can actually large groups as opposed to its current iteration where it can only do one OA, shut down maybe a single enemy if they have sentinel, and then twiddle their thumbs as the rest of the horde just waltzes by

marsh turtle
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Bearing in mind the base feature I think that's fine. It's the synergy that makes it much more worrisome in my eyes. Definitely, wizards have fireball and lightning bolt at that level

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It's also somewhat dependent on what else the fighter can do with their reaction, which, a pure fighter, yeah, they won't have that much to worry about

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Spirit Guradians is also a strong spell for its level (Frankly should be bumped down to 4th level for how much it can do)

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Sentinel with this, while it can seem silly, I think is fine

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it's more the polearm GWM bit that works with this that I'm concerned about because that feels less like the intended "tank" bit and more a "DPR" attempt

hot bison
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It's totally on the creatures whether they're going to bait an opportunity attack. If one or two goblins try to step up and then get deleted off the get-go, the rest of the horde, outside of a hobgoblin order, may think twice about approaching at all. That's fine; the point of the tank is to stem the advance of a horde.

marsh turtle
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all right. Then let's flip it on its head, when one person advances INTO the horde with sentinel.

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If they down a few very easily, the others are going to want to run seeing that. But now they can't because infinite opp. attacks.

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I think, at least, for something like that there should be a limit on how many they can make in a round, even if it doesn't take a reaction to do so

marsh turtle
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or, here's a possible thought with the use of reactions.. opportunity attacks can be used to shove a target (thereby slowing the horde by creating difficult or potentially impassable terrain)

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(It's technically not something a PC can do rn cuz the rules only normally allow it on their own turn)

hot bison
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Chances are to begin with the enemies are slightly spread out. 10 feet apart is a usual spacing for front liners since it maintains maximum coverage of their own opportunity attacks while preventing too many clumping up for an AoE

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If someone runs into a horde, chances are they're the ones who are gonna get in trouble, seeing that monsters tend to be a lot more dangerous in melee. Stronger attacks, certain auras, grappling, etc.

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The goblins might not be able to run but in desperation might dogpile that fighter. Now he compensates for his own field control by putting himself in danger.

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But throughout all of this, he is playing the role of a Frontline, diverting offense from the backline to himself

sleek pendant
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so you're banning the best subclasses of every class, you take the battle master (now banned) maneuvers, and twist them to give them less "resource" die, and give their special subclass abilities to EVERY martial class, but giving out more crits is balanced? Then give them unlimited opportunity attacks? Now THAT'S broken. Or forces any enemy with any intelligence to stay still in combat which is never fun IMO. Why ban anything?? I've never understood why DM's ban anything. DM's have control over what magic items they give to the players, so if you don't want your game broken by items, don't give them those items. The CR system isn't great I'll admit, but after running your players through a few fights, you understand what enemies to throw at them to give them a challenge. I just don't see what's so difficult about these subclasses (and spells i've seen so many DM's ban). Banning things in my experience, makes people NOT want to play the game as they're out of the gate getting player agency taken away. Right off they're being told, hope ya didn't want to play what you wanted to play, you can only play these. Works for some games, but not for all TTRPGs

hot bison
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Arguably some of them are even the worst

sleek pendant
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i'll give you that. i was referring to battle master for fighter, totem for barbarian, assassin for rogue, vengeance (is one of the best paladin classes), open hand for the monk

hot bison
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I never said anything about wanting my game not to be broken by items, in fact, martials need magic items to compete with casters

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Vengeance is the worst subclass for paladin

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or one of

sleek pendant
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sure champion isn't great or alchemist. i agree

hot bison
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Glory's also bad

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Open hand of the monk's okay but honestly I would just straight up grab its features and put it on the base monk

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I'm only banning them because their abilities are just gonna be redundant with whatever maneuvers I'd make up for this system

sleek pendant
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glory isn't as bad as crown or oathbreaker

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ahhhh

hot bison
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crown is good just because spirit guardians

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oathbreaker has a nice frighten ability and a control undead ability

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Vengeance is just advantage and some spells that honestly look good to beginners but at advanced optimization are actually really bad

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haste is overrated

sleek pendant
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vengeance is good for vow of enmity and lot letting them get away from you

hot bison
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hold person's single target and allows a repeatsave every turn

sleek pendant
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agreed. the round of lethargy isn't worth it in most cases

hot bison
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vow of enmity is advantage. you know, the easiest buff to get in 5e.

sleek pendant
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not with all DM's. Most get rid of the opportunities to get advantage like flanking

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I've played with several

hot bison
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Faerie fire grants advantage for multiple targets for all allies and is a 1st level spell for arcane spellcasters

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That's just one way of getting it

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knock a creature prone? that's advantage on melee attacks

sleek pendant
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i honestly must be playing with idiots cuz no one i've ever played with takes it

hot bison
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stun an enemy? advantage

sleek pendant
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yea but disadvantage on ranged. so if there's only one melee and the rest are ranged, it screws everyone else

hot bison
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paralyze an enemy? advantage

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darkness + devil's sight? advantage

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Greater Invisibility? advantage

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Blindsight + Fog Cloud? advantage

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Do you see the problem here?

sleek pendant
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don't get greater invisibility until level 7

hot bison
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And that's without counting subclass specific features

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web? advantage

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there's a way to get advantage at virtually every step of the way to level 20 in D&D

sleek pendant
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it's not a bad thing, it means there's a lot of ways for players to feel like a badass? how is that bad

hot bison
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Advantage isn't bad

sleek pendant
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5e is made for players to feel powerful

hot bison
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The issue is that if you have a class feature that only does advantage

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it's hard to take that and use it as a metric for "best subclass"

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More of the same thing just isn't that good in 5e

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Unless it's spells

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And maybe crits

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crits are definitely good the more you get

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On the other hand, Oath of the Ancients restrains multiple targets with their CD. granted it's a save but that's multiple targets not only being attacked with advantage but having disadvantage on their own attacks

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And all teammates benefit, not just you

sleek pendant
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true. high level fighters can crit up to (not likely) 7 times a round. as powerful as a high level wizard bending reality. cavalier fighter gets 2 reactions a round instead of 1, I think that is OP

hot bison
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you need to factor the probability

sleek pendant
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well the probabilty goes up if you trip them on the first attack. or can see in magic darkness or the 50 other ways to get advantage

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when every attack is at advantage it goes up

hot bison
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And it's not even a question of "one of them costs resources" because said wizard's spamming simulacrum and clone for a stupid number of spell slots

hot bison
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that's not a lot

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the dpr gain for a crit given those chances is abyssmal

sleek pendant
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but it goes from 1 in 20 to nearly 1 in 10. that's a decent improvement

hot bison
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it's not even decent

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Pack Tactics shows the math here

sleek pendant
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well i agree with that. i don't encourage "power builds" because I explain the game isn't about winning or being the most badass or doing the most damage. its about having fun not the numbers. but i guess that's just my games

hot bison
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Honestly it seems your original issue was "let your players choose what they wanna play"

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And I'm just like, you wanna play that subclass?

sleek pendant
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basically

hot bison
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Just pick another subclass and then I'll give you the features on top that you wanted from the original subclass

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have your cake and eat it too

hot bison
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As a game designer (and yes, DM's are game designers by virtue of what they do), an important tenet is option balance

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you need to balance the options available to players in order to ensure that players feel like they have a fair and balanced experience

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Yes, some players won't care. but some will

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Actually, a lot will.

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That's kind of the thing with games

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Hear me out: If you take a "bad" subclass because you wanted the flavour, and then learn midgame that not only is your subclass not doing as well as you hoped but someone is playing a similar concept with a "power" build and is doing what you wanted to do better, doesn't that feel bad?

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It's your fantasy to play that character and it's not panning out as you want. Sure doesn't sound like fun to me.

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And D&D has been noted to have this problem, particularly with martials and melee characters.

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Which is kind of the reason I suggested these homebrew features, to even the playing field

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because somebody in WOTC decided Cleric of all classes was gonna be the best melee class

hot bison
sleek pendant
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i was in a one shot a few days ago, 20th level. a 20th level gunslinger fighter did 266 damage in 2 turns with sharpshooter. i'd say that's comparable to a meteor swarm that his 3 targets (270 damage average)

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but that's 2 turns compared to 1

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but that's still a lot

hot bison
sleek pendant
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yea but the trade out, 9 times out of 10, is being able to take a LOT of hits and being able to tank, where as the casters are glass cannons, easily killed with a few good hits

hot bison
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Ah, the squishy caster fallacy.

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About that...

sleek pendant
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the difference between a d6 and d10 or d12

hot bison
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The difference between one health bar and multiple

sleek pendant
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so much math

hot bison
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D&D: The more math you can swallow the stronger you get

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At 5th level a druid with Conjure Animals will do more melee damage than a martial

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If you're ready to handle the math of 16 giant apes then you will be rewarded

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It's honestly shameful that fans can do this much math when the creators of the game can't be bothered to realize the math of their game is terribly unbalanced

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But let me break it down:

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  • AC is more important than HP, because it's better to avoid damage altogether than take a lot of it. Casters can get armor proficiency through many methods, and then take the Shield spell
  • They have access to reactions like Shield, Absorb Elements, and Counterspell, further increasing their ability to mitigate incoming damage. Martials don't have such abilities.
  • Spells such as Mirror Image, Mage Armor, Fire Shield, Polymorph, Resilient Sphere, Rope Trick, Tiny Hut, etc. can bolster the ability of casters to defend themselves. All at the expense of non-spellcasters who can't use these tools
  • The most dangerous saving throws are in fact mental saves, as they can outright debilitate characters as opposed to deal damage, and mentally-focused spellcasters are better at this innately due to save proficiencies and stat distribution
hot bison
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Each of these spells can give a temporary health bar, additional lives, and copies of the original caster

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While each health bar may not in fact match the one health bar of the martial, all of them are certainly higher than any amount of constitution and feats the fighter could take

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And that's before we touch the spells that straight up tell the enemy "no, I'm in fact not going to be taking any attacks or damage today, thank you very much"

hot bison
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Not a short rest

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Every turn

sleek pendant
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id have to play it first

hot bison
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They'll always be capable of going all out every turn and if they need to alter their attack, they have the opportunity to do so.

sleek pendant
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before i decided if i like it or not

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but not dismissing it outright

hot bison
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Also if you think more crits in 5e is broken you haven't seen pathfinder

sleek pendant
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i'm new to pathfinder

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only played a handful of games

hot bison
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Here's one video explaining the whole problem

marsh turtle
hot bison
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D&D has the asterisk of "if said player is a caster"