Full Metal Gantry

[spark gate]

which grade of alu did you get?

[last ocean]

I've got two sets, one out of 6061 and one out of 7075, I just don't know what the exact differences are. 7075 was harder to chamfer though

Or maybe I'll just need to buy some better tools

[spark gate]

7075 should be more than 78 though

[last ocean]

A little bit but not much I think

[severe glade]

How is the finish when you get those parts?

What do you have to do to make it usable for the printer?

[shut pewter]

It's not going to be a consistent finish with xometry. They send it to a job shop market. Think Uber, but for machining

[severe glade]

Ah ok

Can they do accurate holes or would i nees to drill those myself?

[shut pewter]

I've only used SendCutSend personally.

I cannot speak for other services

There's a bit of diy finishing needed with this mod

[spark gate]

holes were good on my sets and the bead blasting was consistent on them

[severe glade]

So what finishing did you have to do?

[spark gate]

countersink the holes and spray paint them cause I wanted them black but did feel like paying for anodizing

but the post procesing is explained in the documentation

[severe glade]

Ye maybe i should read that xD

[spark gate]

yeah probably

[severe glade]

Is it all in the github repo?

[spark gate]

yes

[severe glade]

Aight

[supple quartz]

These are mine

[severe glade]

how is it so cheap for you?? i put all the parts in and its 107€ :/

[ocean yoke]

You do not need all the parts, some might be ezcluded depends on your belta route

[severe glade]

doesnt seem like the price goes down much when i remove parts tho lol
the price scales so weirdly xD

[severe glade]

what parts are optional?

[shut pewter]

Xometry prices also change

Xometry doesn't make anything

[severe glade]

on laserboost the parts added up to 73€
thats pretty good

did yall get it in aluminum? what about stainless steel? does it just make the finishing harder without actual advantages?

[verbal burrow]

yeah ppl get it in alu, usually 6000 or 7000 iirc

[spark gate]

alu is lighter while still strong enough compared to stainless steel

[ocean yoke]

Front mount x-joints vs top-mount x-joints
You do not need both

[supple quartz]

Turtle, I’ve bought 8mm shaft, 55mm long 2504ah’s and am hoping to use those over the 5mm variants. Do I need to change the BOM to suit? I’ve bought 8mm shafted gt2 9mm toothed gears

[spark gate]

You only need different pulleys and if you want to go double shear(which I would recommend, I don't see any other reason to get those steppers), you need a f608 bearing and print the proper stepper tower inserts

[supple quartz]

Perfect, double sheer is what I was hoping for so I don’t bend shafts

[severe glade]

Whats double sheer?

[last ocean]

When you have steppers with a longer shaft you can add a second bearing on the bottom of the stepper tower to support the shaft when running higher belt tensions

[severe glade]

ah yeah that sounds smart lol

are the parts for that in the bom?

[spark gate]

#1287514029354520710 message

[severe glade]

oh right i forgot you were writing about it xD

[broken venture]

I prefer 8mm over the 5mm variants, since the bearing is actually housed with metal instead of praying on the plastic holding

[primal halo]

Hey all, currently working on a toolhead for the Orbiter V3 since it's a new design. I started with the vanilla mercury one but now I want to incorporate the 9mm belt mod for FMG. Does anyone know if the belt plane or belt centerline is impacted by this mod? I am assuming that the only change necessary would be to widen each belt clamp symmetrically about the centerline by 3mm, but I couldn't find any mention. For those who have done this mod, is there a preferred toolhead design?

[heady solar]

i would go e34m1 since its got nicer belt clips, but past that, youre spot on

[primal halo]

Oh cool it's like a mercury fork of EVA 3. I'm gonna make mine overly complicated for fun even though that one looks pretty well thought out.

[supple quartz]

I’m trying to figure out what else I need, I’ve ordered f695s and 695s for the idler towers and the xy joints because I have 5mm dowel pins, should I have bought 8mm dowel pins and bearings as I’ve got 8mm gt2 pulleys

[woven sand]

you'll have to get new 5mm pulleys for the xy joints. I don't think you'll be able to find 8mm id bearings to fit

[supple quartz]

I ordered 6 of these

9mm width 8mm bore

So I’ll need other ones then, 4 more?

[woven sand]

yeah you'll need 4 5mm id ones

[supple quartz]

Ok cool, the bearings though I can’t use right? The 695s?

[woven sand]

for which parts? because the f695s get pressed into the plates on the xy joints

[supple quartz]

Onto the stepper mounts

As I’m going 8mm 55mm length double sheer

[woven sand]

not if you want to use them for double shear

[supple quartz]

To prevent the shaft from bending

[woven sand]

youll need f608s i believe

[supple quartz]

Just for the motors?

But I can use the others for the idlers

[woven sand]

yeah just double check the notes in the bom for which youll need for double shear

[woven sand]

the 608s fit the main hole in the plate and the 698s fit in the printed part

[supple quartz]

Yup, getting it now, just saw the notes, would I be able to use zz instead for the rubber seals?

[woven sand]

i used zz for my 608s

[supple quartz]

Would you do it for the 698s?

[deft plover]

I have a feeling this might be old news, but with the 9mm gantry and the gates pulleys as live idlers, the non-toothed portion of the pulley hits the belt that isn’t wrapped around it

[shut pewter]

you should read the notes on that 🙂

you missed a step

[meager laurel]

Did anyone have any issues printing the 9mm parts? I am getting a weird bending in the part

[still imp]

I get weird artifacts like that when I try to do scarf seems with ASA.

[humble fulcrum]

@supple quartz these guys have the F608ZZ and class 2 so it's equivalent to ABEC5-7 and realllly good quality https://g.co/kgs/tZBXutB

[supple quartz]

I normally go to statewide for my bearings as I have a business account with them

[humble fulcrum]

They don't sell any F608 that are above abec 1

[supple quartz]

I’ll swing past there when I’m back in Perth

[slow pelican]

for the counter sunk screws, can i just use a drill?

[tender token]

if you use a countersink drill yes. did that as well. carefull you dont go too far

[deft plover]

😅😅😅

[primal halo]

Anyone done double shear 9mm lately? I'm wondering why one of the spacer blocks for the motor towers has this recess in it. 635 2RS setup.

[shut pewter]

I keep forgetting to fix that one file

[primal halo]

Ok so it's alright if it looks a bit crunchy from underneath?

[shut pewter]

Only the one should have issues like that, or are those all the same file?

[primal halo]

Yes it's all the same file. I was just experimenting with cooling settings for overhangs

[shut pewter]

the support file for the 22mm bearing got mixed into that one by mistake

[primal halo]

9mm Imperial - Bottom Right Insert-635-698.stl Is the file I downloaded

[shut pewter]

or some sort of work flow mixup

[primal halo]

Can I throw it in CAD and just remove that feature or do you think there's more to it?

[shut pewter]

yeah you can

[slow pelican]

this gantery can handle higher tensions right? i was wondering if i should go GT2 or GT3 9mm belts

[broken venture]

Yeah, those files should have the supports still stuck to the bed when you pull it off XD

[primal halo]

I'm not sure that is a concern for the gantry, even with stock plastic pieces the hub load forces on each shaft shouldn't be anywhere close to the limits for the material. There is a concern that only supporting your steppers by one end may bend the shaft at very high tension, in which case the full metal gantry may help you via double shear support. Keep in mind the static tension is not really the concern, but if you plan on whipping a heavy gantry (m) around at high accelerations (a), there could be high tension in the belt as a result of inertial forces (F) f=ma. And if you do want to push it to the extremes, a wider belt will mean less stress (tensile stress = F/cross sectional area) and therefore less stretching due to inertial forces. GT3 Gates belts have the advantage over GT2 with durability, high temp operation and stiffness. Meaning that if you applied the same inertial forces to the same sized GT2 and GT3 belts, the GT3 would stretch less. Will that really mean much? Probably not a ton, you can calculate the forces involved if you were motivated to. Unless you are gunning for extreme performance it might not be strictly necessary. If its not a big price difference GT3 is propbably the way to go.

[deft plover]

Any advice on how to remove this gates pulley hub?

There shouldn’t be anything weird about it, I just don’t want to risk damaging the pulley

[shut pewter]

check pins

[deft plover]

Thanks king

🤦‍♂️ except I already took my gantry apart

Someday I’ll learn

[shut pewter]

people have done it with pliers and other tools

[meager laurel]

anyone know what length the set screws should be filed to? Or what size to buy

[last ocean]

The ones I've ordered are M4x3, they touch the other belt very slightly but I don't think that matters

[heady solar]

it does

i got the same and sanded down the ends

[heady solar]

m3x2 i guess

[last ocean]

I think there are no 2mm ones

But M4/M3*3 and some slight filing should make it clear the belts

[heady solar]

ik. you have to sand them lol

[meager laurel]

so i will be sanding regardless lol

[rough stream]

If you are not impatient, I can print and mail you the tool. 😅

But then I realize this was like 2 days ago...

[deft plover]

I’m still looking for a way to do it if you still don’t mind

[rough stream]

Sure thing, PM me?

[deft plover]

PM'd

[uneven solar]

can we machine these with a 3 axis CNC?

[heady solar]

It can be done, but advised to laser cut by turtle

[uneven solar]

oh they're all flat planes?

[heady solar]

from my experience, its fine. Turtle, the designer, might disagree

[heady solar]

mainly

in exception to a few countersinks

[snow oar]

Its a flat plate bent by send cut send. Im sure it can be machined. Id only try it if that is chesp for you. Its like $40 from sendcutsend

For two sets it was cheaper than one

[uneven solar]

i know someone who, in the near future, might be the proud owner of a mid CNC machine

[heady solar]

we tempted you yesterday in VC? 😂

[uneven solar]

i was intrigued in the first place because the lab attendee at the high school i went to has been eyeing some CNC machines

i can't find a place to put that drill press thingy i just got, cnc ain't happening before i move houses

[heady solar]

you seemed to have enough room in your office
If theres room to walk, theres room to put stuff 💀

[uneven solar]

That was the living room

And the 3d printer was on the dining table

[heady solar]

living room? perfect place 😂

[shut pewter]

Your mixing up orders, Hydra motor mounts are $40 for 2 printers Worth. Full gantry in 7075 is $90-100

[snow oar]

Oops. I read things quickly

[deft plover]

Shoutout @rough stream for the pulley tool

This seems wrong but I’m going to use it anyway

[rough stream]

You need to pull the thin side off of another pulley to replace what you just pulled off of that one

Like so

[deft plover]

RIP, all my pulleys are in lubbock

And I am in Dallas

Cool x joint though, looks good. If I ever put together an anodizing setup, remind me and I can make the bare aluminum parts red for you

[rough stream]

Thanks! But I actually have the set up for anodizing too, just got lazy. I anodized my other FMG set black though. 👍

[deft plover]

I’m just one tub of sulfuric acid away lol

[fickle prawn]

Sooo, I’m dropping a bomb here https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/nema-17-high-temp-stepper-motor-55ncm-77-93oz-in-55mm-8mm-round-shaft-insulation-class-h-180c-17hs19-2504s-h-v2

[heady solar]

https://tenor.com/view/the-office-dwight-jackpot-gif-21054814

[deft plover]

I’ve had these motors for like a year, unless the price is the bomb

[shut pewter]

8mm shafts from stepper online

They only had 5mm before

[fickle prawn]

yes, we harassed them bout the 8mm shaft, before as a custom order, but since we were from US and EU all over the place, they decided to add it in their shop

it took them alsmost 4 months though

[uneven solar]

what are the benefits of full metal gantry

it comes up to ~45 bucks per piece if i find another 4 people to get it cut with

[last ocean]

More stiffness/heat resistance, the option to run 9mm belts and it just looks really cool in general

[uneven solar]

i don't think eva34m1 supports 9mm belts so i probably won't do that

anyway i'll leave it up for later

with hfp prices it sorta seemed competitive, that's why i wanted to ask

[last ocean]

I'm running a dragon burner+beacon on mine and it's been great so far

[last ocean]

Oh and also double shear motor towers for higher belt tensions

[uneven solar]

that i'm interested in. Is the design double shear by default, or is there another mod for it?

[last ocean]

No, the files are included in the repo. It's recommended to use motors with 8mm shafts though, so you can use an F608 bearing that sits directly in the metal part and not in the printed insert

[uneven solar]

is there a shaft length requirement?

hmmm the 2504s have 5mm shafts i think

[last ocean]

There are 8mm ones available from omc now

[uneven solar]

i might try to machine the inserts

[uneven solar]

bit too late, ordered it a week ago :/

[last ocean]

You could also just edit the DXF files for the stepper towers to accommodate f695 bearings for motors with 5mm shafts

[uneven solar]

if that works that's good

[last ocean]

I think the stepper towers are around 46mm tall. But all motors I know have 55mm shafts so you're good with those

[uneven solar]

mine have 24mm

maybe a bit less actually

dual shear is not happening i guess

[last ocean]

Yeah no, those won't work

[uneven solar]

awesome

more incorrect purchasing decisions, just what i needed

[last ocean]

Don't worry, I also have two of those motors laying around since upgrading to FMG 😂

[uneven solar]

yeah maybe in the distant future i swap them out

i'll have to buy motors for the z axis some time since i don't have 3 of the same motor

but 2504s for those would be overkill

[last ocean]

Just a little bit

[fickle prawn]

yeah! we asked for it, they took 4 months of writing back and forth, but they finally released these, because of us 😛

[uneven solar]

ships from china though :/

could've done the regular 55mms i guess, i was just told LDOs are a safer bet

[shut pewter]

What's your point? Less than 2 weeks for most stuff these days from China

[uneven solar]

30 bucks in shipping

[shut pewter]

That's because they are not building shipping into the price, making it cheaper

They could just list them at $35 each with free shipping

[uneven solar]

yes, as opposed to the ones shipped from germany from the same site. i don't know what else to tell you

[stray patrol]

What bearings do we use for double shear?

[slow pelican]

Ordered the wrong pulleys

[spark gate]

Yo what

[broken venture]

Nothing a dremel cant fix

Bandsaw

[stray patrol]

Damn I knew I saw it somewhere. I looked right over it earlier

Thanks G

[slow pelican]

ordered 5 plates instead of 6... 🙂

[primal halo]

close enough I'm sure it's fine

[meager laurel]

anyone find 2.5mm M4 set screws on ali?

[heady solar]

sanded mine down
I couldnt find them anywhere smaller than 3mm

[normal star]

Someone posted a mod for it: https://discord.com/channels/747612067951018075/1292801318326501399.

[normal star]

Hey all, related'ish to the above, I've tried reading back about anything that might have been said about recommendations for toolheads especially in regards to going with 9mm belts.

I'm running the E34M1 right now on the Nebula frame and would like to do this gantry setup. It sounds like that mod for EVA3 is working fine for the creator, but I'm wondering if there's maybe a preference here for a different toolhead? Of if you all see the EVA3 as a good combination with the full metal gantry and 9mm?

[stray patrol]

Full metal? Go with a CNC VZ toolhead.

[last ocean]

I'm running a Dragon Burner with Rapido Hotend and Orbiter 2.0 and I'm pretty happy with that setup. But I'm not trying to achieve crazy speeds though

[snow oar]

Go with e34m1 9mm mod with gt2 belts

[heady solar]

zerog cnc toolhead doesnt support 9mm

[woven sand]

technically can if you replace the posts with standoffs

[heady solar]

it will misalign belts causing artifacts

[shut pewter]

I would go with a front mount toolhead that's supports 9mm belts over eva3

[heady solar]

do you know any by chance? 👀

[snow oar]

Takeoff, obviously

[heady solar]

anyones that dont cost $600?...

[snow oar]

Yeah the vz toolhead with standoffs seems to work for @broken venture

[heady solar]

in theory, it would cause belts to misalign meaning the middle of the gantry and the end would have a dif tension

[snow oar]

I never looked at it, but that’s doesn’t make sense to me

Can you shed some light on your theory

[shut pewter]

Any of the armchair options

Xol, archtype

[heady solar]

ill cad it after school

and explain

[broken venture]

Mine are perfectly straight

I dare someone to try and move belts when they are at 200+hz of tension against knurled standoffs

Just have a single belt clip for both belts to keep them spaced correctly, and theyre fine

[snow oar]

Precursor rn

[broken venture]

It would be more with 9mm since that gives you 18mm of grip on both sides of the toolhead

If belts would move, I would notice it before anyone with 9mm belts

The forces are also pulling it side to side, not up and down

[heady solar]

let me visualize it before yall hammer me 😭

[broken venture]

Not trying to beat on you XD

Just trying to explain my thought process

[dusky bough]

I want it too

[uneven solar]

i got it down to much cheaper

i think you can get ~25 parts price if you split it into 2 whole plates

[dusky bough]

I was still trying to get the files

[uneven solar]

put this twice, then it has the right number of plates i think

make sure to double check tho

[dusky bough]

ah thats for one

youd need double

[uneven solar]

yes

[dusky bough]

and then also spacers

[uneven solar]

xometry has some weird pricing

two pieces, total, cost less than one

[dusky bough]

or did we already have spacers

[uneven solar]

i don't think so

[dusky bough]

I could get it with you, just wondering what you are seeying

[uneven solar]

i won't get it for a while

[dusky bough]

also might need a dfx file reader, because the one with libre office is shite

[uneven solar]

and besides the shipping i think a single set is cheaper than two

[dusky bough]

perhaps will see

[uneven solar]

xometry pricing is weird, let me know if you find a dutch alternative

[dusky bough]

I was gonna go to a local lasercut shop

I already approached another one for the aluminium plate, but they did not respond. figures

though the one I am going to ask now will respond.

I am just wondering about the tolerances of the holes for the aluminium bed

mostly wondering about positioning

[severe glade]

if yall do a group buy from xometry i would be interested too

[shut pewter]

Laser boost is the best over in the EU I believe

[dusky bough]

I still need a program to open DFX in, currently, freecad does open the DFX but it does not look like the measurements are correct

[shut pewter]

Why do you need to open the dxf

Use the step files if you need to modify them

[dusky bough]

I just wanted to check if there are any tolerances given

last time I ordered something without giving tolerances, the people put holes 2 mm off centre

[shut pewter]

It's just a cutting file

No dimensions or tolerances

[dusky bough]

ah ok, thats fair, then I must have been misunderstanding.

[shut pewter]

Dwg files are a format for drawings

[dusky bough]

I am mixing things up once again

[severe glade]

wtf 1 of this gets quoted 37€ by xometry
2 of them are 34€
wtf is that math xD

[uneven solar]

ikr

some parts you can get a discount for up to 6 pieces

i think its a cut area thing

idk not worth reverse engineering

[severe glade]

i gotta think of more things to get cut lol

laserboost seems a bit more expensive
they offer bending tho, so thats cool

[dusky bough]

I am currently scouring through the github, but the STL files are not the plates I am looking for I think, because it all seems like it should be machined.

ah no I get it now, I think... ay ay... still need to print

[shut pewter]

Don't use xometry... laserboost

[severe glade]

for quality?

[shut pewter]

Cheaper

Xometry doesn't make anything

They are just Uber for machining services

[severe glade]

so is the instant quote a lie?

[shut pewter]

No

But laserboost is cheaper

And you don't know what quality you will get with xometry

Or plate thickness

[severe glade]

i understand the quality concern, but the quote on xometry is quite a bit lower
with many of the parts in 1 dxf its only 34€ for everything
on laserboost its like 45€

maybe they scaled it wrong? 🤔

[dusky bough]

if you have the time, I can ask a local business here for a quote, which they were pretty receptive when I came over. they do laser cutting and milling. who knows, though if they are more expensive than laserboost... well...

I am just picking through the step files now, because I was misunderstand the whole assembly of the full metal gantry.

[severe glade]

i would guess they are more expensive for these small orders but idk

[shut pewter]

You need at least 2 of every part

[dusky bough]

I could ask for prices with 1 set, 2 sets or 4 sets.... if they are receptive ill share, if not well too bad.

[shut pewter]

A EU group buy was done when I first released this

[dusky bough]

also is there a difference between the front mount and top mount?

in plates?

[shut pewter]

Yes

Read the GitHub

[dusky bough]

ill check it again

[severe glade]

any reason why theres 3 of these printed parts next to both motors in the step files? 😄

[dusky bough]

hum hum, I was not brave enough to ask

[shut pewter]

Bearing options

[dusky bough]

ah so top mounted it is

[broken venture]

For us long shaft bois

[normal star]

gt2 due to the extra tension needed with gt3?

[normal star]

Short version as to why front mount? Or maybe a pointer to a good reference as to why and I can go rtfm? If I'm understanding correctly though front mount advantage is about weight balance and center of mass mostly?

[snow oar]

yeah gt3 is about 300hz

VERY tight

it willl break plastic component

[normal star]

Thanks.

[shut pewter]

most toolheads with 9mm support are front mount

only top mount option I know of is the modded eva3 setup, and I think it just has to many design compromises to make it work for the mercury, the 9mm belts do not help those in my opinion.

[normal star]

👍 That's the perspective I was wondering about I think. I've had a good experience with eva3 so far but am kind of worried it becomes the week point quickly with fmg.

For context, I'm not interested in a record breaking speed demon, I want fast'ish (movement 500, infill 250, walls 180 and 120 at the moment), I want stable, I want durable, I want high quality and accurate prints. I only run a single machine. I'm a nerd and this is my hobby, so fiddling with it is fine, having it out of commision is fine, etc.etc.. Breaking the stupid thing because of some silly compromise or lack of research and attention is not. Having to fight against the system is not.

I'm thinking fmg and 9mm for all those reasons. Am I barking up the right tree?

[rough stream]

@shut pewter you got that file for the metal spacers yet? 😁

[meager laurel]

A4t if you aren't using cpap. Xol if you are

[pallid quest]

Instead of being square your belts are triangles but the angle of the belt from the pulley to the toolhead changes as it moves on the x. For the merc toolhead it’s minimal but running a front mount rail on stock merc one.1 parts had it around 3mm out of alignment from extrusion to belt in the Y plane.

I ran my merc like that for a bit before I modded the stl as it was before the cad was released, don’t remember getting any crazy artefacts though but wasn’t pushing the printer much then.

[solar oriole]

What frequency are we looking at for 6mm on 8mm, bearings shear supported motors.

[slow pelican]

can someone send me the hub puller? i cant find the stl

[last ocean]

It's in the pinned messages

[slow pelican]

thanks

[pallid quest]

#1287514029354520710 message

[shut pewter]

Always check the pins

[pallid quest]

@shut pewter do you think I will need to swap the rear m3 stand off to a m5 bolt if going 9mm gt3 with 304 stainless plates? I’ll be ready to install tomorrow if I don’t need to mod them

[snow oar]

Its less about the plate material, and moreso the fact that gt3 uses super high tension. That back bolt is needed for sure. I hollowed out an m3 standoff and used a long m3 screw

I did also just swap back to gt2 and so far havent noticed a difference

Tbd on that

[pallid quest]

Thanks, I’ll go the hollow m3 stand off and long bolt!

[shut pewter]

I've only used 7075 aluminum, your on your own if you use stainless

[solar oriole]

"done" for now. 😅 Its working great so far, lets see how she prints.

[solar oriole]

Thanks, I have them at 200 hz right now. I will look at that.

[lavish sinew]

I think I still have mine on 110

[broken venture]

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-surprised-amazed-amazing-shook-gif-16076916

[fickle prawn]

hmm, I remember there was an extra possible bolt for the rear motors, using a longer screw somewhere… but I can’t find it here or in the github, maybe I’ve imagined it?

[pallid quest]

Only really needed for gt3 belts, you run the rear m3 thru a spacer into a tnut instead of 2 m3’s into a stand off

[fickle prawn]

ahh, yeah, I remember correctly, but I wasn’t sure I’d run through the holes just to ruin things, as usual

[fickle prawn]

I see, but it can’t hurt even without gt3. I’m running gt2 6mm belts, but I see the extra support as an advantage… dhu, I don’t have a countersunk m3 that long 😩

[pallid quest]

With gt2 tension it will be fine, the m5 bolts are not all in the same line so will hold it down enough. This has more points it’s being held down and is extremely stiffer than the plastic parts that are normally used and have no issues.

[fickle prawn]

well, the thing is, I have bought 5mm slots extrusions, so I’m planning ahead which screw goes where because I’ll have to tear down thing later on just to add t-nuts (or spend and wait for proper 5mm slots type tnuts), so I’m thinking all the possibilities I’m missing

[normal star]

I was thinking that holding the back down (even just lightly, not as a requirement for tension) might cut down on vibrations. I don't have it yet so obviously have no hands on knowledge of it. 🤷‍♂️

[fickle prawn]

Did you have to send the 8mm motor shaft to fit it into the double shear bearing?

The pulleys slide in the shafts quite nicely, but the bearings here is no way to make them go in

[slow pelican]

which bearing did u get?

[fickle prawn]

F608

[fickle prawn]

I have an 8mm rod and the bearings fits just right, it’s the motor shaft that is super tight

I’d push harder, but it’s a motor, it’s not supposed to get that much strength in that direction

[shut pewter]

Sand it

[unreal lake]

The motors shaft bearing are pressed on the rotor shaft, so once you don't try to press it on with the motor assemble you should be fine... BUT as Turtle said it is MUCH easier to sand yourself some clearance..

[fickle prawn]

I’m planning to but I still have to do it. it’s less straightforward than with dowel pins where I could just spinning it with a drill, there are several aspects of the thing, 1) laziness, 2) I don’t want to send it unevenly, 3) I don’t want that small shaft dust goes somewhere in the motors internal bits 😅

[spark gate]

Sand them upside down
And theoretically you could hook them up to a board and just have them spin for you

[shut pewter]

Don't over think it, I just folded sand paper around the shaft and spun the sandpaper around it by hand for 30 seconds at a time

And I just hold it how ever is comfortable. The bearings are sealed and your not creating that much dust

[fickle prawn]

hmm maybe I should just go for it, I have wet sandpaper, but water might just do worse than a bit if dust 😅

[shut pewter]

I don't use water

Also only need to sand the end

The bearing doesn't need to slide freely along the entire motor shaft

[fickle prawn]

and it’s done

it wasn’t that hard, but as usual, super hard to fit, until a tiny touch of more sanding and suddenly it feels too loose

[broken venture]

Wanna know a secret?

If you use spacers instead and longer m3 screws, you can add T-nuts under and add more anchor points

Keeps it from pulling the motor up and forward from the belt tension

I can see a gap under that XD

[fickle prawn]

It’s all I could think about when bolting the thing on. But I only have up to 35mm on M3 😩. I wonder if I ditch the M3, and enlarge the holes through to M5, if a M5 spacer would fit. eyeballing it could still clear the flange tower close by

[broken venture]

I kept the M3 so I could do the spacer between the bearing stacks

Get all 5 points

[fickle prawn]

true, so I only need a bag of 45mm countersunk M3…

I can keep the standoff, it’s annoying that I’ll have to screw it all in

actually maybe it’s 50mm screw, I have to check

[broken venture]

55mm

Same as the M5 screw

[broken venture]

Also keep in mind most ali express standoffs arnt completely tapped through

Usually end after 10mm

[fickle prawn]

ok a bag of 50mm M3 FHCS on its way, hopefully will be here before the summer 😅

[severe glade]

why do we need 6 toothed pulleys? i only see 2 on the motors and 2 on the x joints

[heady solar]

you need sacrificial parts FOR the xy joints which you harvest from the other two

[severe glade]

hmm okay

[heady solar]

if you have spare 20t pulleys like 6mm, you can also harvest from those

thats what I did

[severe glade]

is there an overall consensus about gt2 or gt3 belts?
and would i need different pulley sizes for gt3? the teeth spacing is the same right?

[spark gate]

Pulleys are the same
In general go gt2
GT3 are more expensive and require higher tension which means double shear support on the steppers

[severe glade]

they require higher tension? what if you use them with less tension?
was planning on going double shear anyways tho

i already ordered the belts too lol
but i was looking into the pulleys now

[spark gate]

Gates specs them at higher tension
I would assume they have more play than gt2 at lower tensions but I never tried

[severe glade]

i cant seem to find any m3x5x10 spacers on ali

maybe im searching with the wrong terms idk

its all either threaded or not round

[broken venture]

search washer, not spacer

[last ocean]

3dkatten also has custom idlers now

https://3dkatten.eu/products/custom-20t-2gt-5mm-id-live-shaft-idler

[heady solar]

theres a link on the github

[severe glade]

yeah i ended up finding that exact one lol

i ordered the lasecut parts from both xometry and laserboost
we shall see whats better

[shut pewter]

I got some of those custom live idlers, I really should install them...

[slow pelican]

how flush do the set screw need to be?

[ocean yoke]

Dont think it matter much

[heady solar]

as flush as possible. in my experience, the lower belt teeth caught onto there and gave really bad resonance issues

[meager laurel]

It does, it will get caught on the belts and mess up your resonances. It will also make belts slip

[slow pelican]

for the front idler towers, should i sand down the dowel pin or try to drill out the hole in the aluminum a bit biggeR?

[ocean yoke]

What? Isnt the geared part for belt, and the smooth one for the screw there?

Or I misread something

[broken venture]

Please sand the pin

Do not touch the holes on the brackets

Otherwise your next pin could be too thin and wiggle in there

[slow pelican]

too late drilled a hole in the stepper

[broken venture]

Good luck soldier

[slow pelican]

anyways i realized that i need to sand them abit for the bearings so started that already

[broken venture]

Least plates are cheap if its an issue

[slow pelican]

not at laserboost...

they have a minimum order quantity so i payed 90euro for 1 plate when i forgot to order it first time

[severe glade]

Did you actually get parts lasercut with this file? Laserboost canceled my order saying they dont accept nested parts lol

[uneven solar]

bruh

no i didn't order them

cringe

[severe glade]

Xometry didnt say anything about it yet

[uneven solar]

i don't really understand this pricing

shouldn't they base it off of sqmm wasted?

[severe glade]

Material is cheap
Prolly mostly about timed needed on machine and manual stuff

And smol order punishment

Also shipping is wildly expensive
Payed over 30 both on laserboost and xometry

[slow pelican]

they have a minimum order quantity, after u put 2 it or more it becomes reasonable. as for the parts i added a bunch for either tapped or or not and how many taps

but they gave me a few emails about them because i shouldve put different files for the mirrored parts even though they are the same

idk how much this matters but their parts did come to 2.9mm instead of 3

[severe glade]

The price isnt only dependant on part amount, mostly combined part size i think

Bigger parts are also cheap

[uneven solar]

maybe do a group purchase

id do it but i just got short shaft motors & i want to do dual shear by then

i'll keep them for a while

[shut pewter]

Both, sand the pins to got the bearings.

Use a spare pin as a reamer to open up the holes as needed.

[meager laurel]

you wont realise until you assemble it. The belt goes in the toothed area, but the other belt will be quite close to the pulley. It is that belt it interferes with

[ocean yoke]

Oh, the belt which doesnt go to this pulley but to the next one, got it!

Makes sense, thank you

[meager laurel]

no problem. I had to sand mine down to approx 2.5mm to get it to fit flush

currently trying to source screws that are already the right size

[shut pewter]

I have 3mm set screws, I haven't tried one yet.

I filled my original stock ones down the slow way

[meager laurel]

so did i.... by hand.... with sand paper.....

[still imp]

How is this happening? I don't think I understand. Is the belt coming off of the teeth so much that it hits the set screw?

[shut pewter]

The set screw can hit the other belt

[heady solar]

no, the other belt can sometimes snag them.
i sanded my set screws down

[solar oriole]

These have to be the best numbers I have ever seen on this machine, been consistent to so far. @shut pewter Thanks for your efforts on this project.

[stuck belfry]

Is a European group order forming?

[meager laurel]

It has been forming for a while lol

[stuck belfry]

Well, I have some ideas to mod/implement, 70% of the parts for a Hydra plus build including 8mm-55 steppers. I need to push me to get to 100% and do it. My difficulties are down to where to place the printer as machine (should it be my "nice" printer, my "hot" printer, my fast and big printer or a never ending project) and to print ASA reliably (I have a prusa mini and XL as "printing printers" an unreliable ender 5 and a not fully enclosed two trees sapphire pro clone)

[topaz agate]

For me it’s my nice, hot, fast big and never ending project printer 🤣

[grim vine]

@shut pewter just nesting these up for my second printer, I commend you on the files
No issues or errors that need cleaning up, which I've found to be annoyingly rare over the years!

[meager laurel]

This is the way

[slow pelican]

yeah my printed been "done" for 20 times now

[heady solar]

OUR printers

[slow pelican]

aye ma'am\

[tender token]

Ahhh finally got to install the metal x joints and towers 💪💪💪

[broken venture]

My OCD is pissed right now

Annodize them dammit XD

[tender token]

I know🤣🤣... Should have made them black but as impatient. I have another set. Maybe I'll anodize those

[shut pewter]

The motor mounts need to match the rest, everything else including the toolhead and extruder are silver

Just strip the motor mounts

The printed inserts not matching are the real issue

[broken venture]

And the damn white tension squares XD

[severe glade]

are the printed tensioners actually strong enough?

i feel like they might bend with high tension, no?

[tender token]

ohh those are from the old setup lol

[tender token]

You mean the black ones?

[tender token]

ah those... yeah I agree

too much red

will replace those when I upgrade the motors

first the metal gantry and SLS hydra arms.. Arms are in production

[shut pewter]

Not the red, they just don't match side to side

The red works well, adds color

[tender token]

so yeah... last year I printed the left one on the last couple meters of red, ran out and had to swap to black🤣

[unreal lake]

Sacrilege!

[tender token]

For that little 5mm is was worth it🤣

[sudden kite]

I’ve been thinking about going full metal gantry, is it a good performance boost with the rigidity or is it mostly just for the pleasure of having more metal on a printer? Also I’ve been eying the awd mod and I’m wondering if that’s worth looking into too, or if I should just stick to the simple all metal gantry setup?

[broken venture]

Full metal is for people looking for reliablility and rigidity. Its also lighter than the printed version, so a little bit of extra performance to gain.

If you want to do dual shear gt3, thats also the reason why

You do NOT need AWD, it does not offer the performance gains youre expecting

[sudden kite]

What is this and what’s the benifit?

[sudden kite]

Gotcha I won’t worry about awd then, thank you

[broken venture]

GT3 belts run 200+hz of belt tension compared to GT2's 110hz base.

You add a second bearing to prevent motor shaft bending at very high tensions

[sudden kite]

Ah I see, I’m assuming more intense belts means faster speeds and less artifacts right

[broken venture]

Not necessarily less artifacts. That always takes tuning to deal with

Gt3's have less stretch, so they can handle higher accels much much better

Less "whiplash" effect on the toolhead

Also all high temp by design

So GT3's have their place

But thats also why 90% of poeple stick to GT2 belts and lower tensions

[sudden kite]

Gotcha that Sounds like something worth upgrading to. I’m trying to save up to go all out and finish my merc and I wanna do the most I can with it

Thank u for the explanations

[broken venture]

For dual shear, you need 55mm or longer shafts

[sudden kite]

Any recommended motors to buy? Or can I replace the shafts on the motors I have? sorry for so many questions

[broken venture]

Mine in the picture are fabreekos new "Classified" motors

I would highly recommend LDO 2504 55mm's if you looking as a start

https://www.fabreeko.com/products/ldo-42sth48-2504ahs55-nema-17-motor-high-temp?_pos=2&_sid=768a78f59&_ss=r

https://www.fabreeko.com/products/open-beta-nema-17-3a-rated-classified-steppers-by-honeybadger?_pos=2&_sid=99ea20bdf&_ss=r
These are mine that I currently am running

[sudden kite]

The classified ones sound interesting, I’ll have to look into those

[broken venture]

They're 3A rated motors, so they require a lot more to max out

Rated for high voltages

2504's are the best to start and learn with

Im on 2 external drivers and 55V XD

[sudden kite]

Yikes yeah I’m not at that point yet so I’ll stick with the 2504s then🔥

[broken venture]

Youll be very happy with those, 2504s are the best performance to price available

Are you on 6mm or 9mm belts?

[sudden kite]

Honestly don’t rememebr but whatever the fabreeko merc kit came with

[broken venture]

So 6mm

[sudden kite]

I think 6???

I should be keeping a build log so that I know what the hell I’ve done with my printer

[broken venture]

I would highly recommend picking up some 9mm pulleys for the motors. Itll make your life 1000x easier

[sudden kite]

Yeah I was hoping to go the 9mm route, sounded like a good idea from what I’ve read

[broken venture]

Nah, just do 9mm pulleys with your 6mm belts

[sudden kite]

Oh I see

[broken venture]

Or if you want to do 9mm, get 12mm pulleys

[sudden kite]

So that the belts don’t rub right

[broken venture]

That extra room makes aligning things so much easier

Pulleys are usually always the reason belts bounce because theyre not perfectly aligned

That extra wiggle room allows you to not need to get it perfect with the 6mm pulley

Allows the belts to find the natural spot they like to sit

[sudden kite]

Thanks for the tip, I will defo have to make that switch then

[broken venture]

Theres a lot more to do, but thatll get you very satisfied

[sudden kite]

I’m waiting for the nebula hardware kit to be available at fabreekos site and then Im gonna Have to splurge on everything and get to work

[broken venture]

Then you also dont need to worry how tight you make the belts, itll stay straight

Something else will break first

[sudden kite]

Sounds very convenient

I gotta write that down so I don’t end up forgetting lol

[broken venture]

Also, just something to consider.......

Are you wanting to do this before or after the frame?

[sudden kite]

All at the same time honestly

I’m gonna stock up on what I need and just do it all together

[broken venture]

If you open the rear motor mounts cad, youll see how they use M3 screws and standoffs by the bearing stacks

If you want a little more rigidity, You could swap those out for spacers and 50mm M3 screws.

Then add T nuts under and create another mounting place

1 sec

Only works for longer Y extrusions on nebula

VERY VERY helpful with those high tensions that wanna pull that whole motor forward

[sudden kite]

Neat tip, im getting the 370 extrusion kit so im assuming those extrusions are what u mean

Sounds like a very good idea though to keep that motor frame stuck down

[broken venture]

Yeah, you just need the longer extrusions, since the stock frame doesnt have them long enough and the motors hang off the back

[sudden kite]

Right ok makes sense

Thanks for the advice again, I’ll have to write this all down so I don’t forget because gosh my memory is horrible

[broken venture]

No problem 🙂

[shut pewter]

On the speed part, for daily print quality I am not where near maxing out 2wd.

I can still get decent quality printing faster but then I start to question part strength as layers adhesion suffers.

The stupid speeds are only good for bragging rights and showing off.

[supple quartz]

are you suggesting using m3 50mm screws and threading the bottom?

[broken venture]

The motor towers are 45mm tall, you use 50mm and add a T-Nut into the extrusion underneath to add another anchor point

You need longer Y extrusion if youre using the stock frame

Thats why this only works with nebula

[supple quartz]

I’ve ordered the LDO nebula kit

Won’t be here for a while though

But in other news, I got the broken tap out

Ended up having to bore it out, and add a threaded insert, into place, but as it’s only holding wago joiners, I’m not exactly concerned

It’s not a structural part

[severe glade]

im just using the stock e5+ frame, but an extra mounting point there definitely makes sense
you think i could just extend my y extrusions with some short extrusions held in place by 90° brackets?

otherwise ill have to print something there

[broken venture]

Its better to use 1 piece to guarantee flatness and strength

Longer extrusions arnt too hard to source

and you only need 2 of them

[severe glade]

idk the e5 plus has weird y extrusions, they are 2040 with the corners cut away
i dont think i can source that easily

and a 2020 extrusion there would definitely weaken the frame quite a bit

[unreal lake]

Or 55mm if you are on full metal Gantry with 9mm belts..

[broken venture]

Or that

[unreal lake]

I had dllpdf do a custom 2040 replicating the notch for my nebula, it has to be milled precisely to be any use, but it made my frame super rigid as it locks the 2040 upright, the notched 2040 y extrustion and the 2020 outer upright together at a perfect 90

[severe glade]

yeah

the nebula plus kit doesnt come with that, right?

[unreal lake]

No it is a 2020 in the standard nebula

[shut pewter]

I think that's a stupid design choice

Just place 2040 over it all

[severe glade]

just do 4040 everywhere 🗿

[supple quartz]

how much did that end up setting you back?

[unreal lake]

I think it was 30 extra?

[rough stream]

@severe glade @unreal lake this is what I did.

[severe glade]

yeah thats nice

[wintry marsh]

😂 turtle just saying it as it is

https://tenor.com/view/tmnt-leonardo-no-more-mr-nice-turtle-no-more-mr-nice-guy-im-done-playing-games-gif-18749159

[unreal lake]

Turtle has never played it nice, but I still think the notch is actually a better design for the nebula 370. Two 2020 extrusion over 600mm in length supporting the gantry is weak sauce. You don't have to notch it, but at least do what @rough stream did and use 2040s. I notched mine and it made everything super rigid and forced that joint of the frame to be 90 degrees in three directions.. shrugs

[rough stream]

Doing the 2040 also doubled the amount of fasteners into the uprights and also that back gantry beam for the Hydra upright. I like it so far. We'll see if I have any issues after it's all assembled. 😅

[severe glade]

did you get shorter z extrusions to stay at the same height then?

[rough stream]

No. I'm using 500mm integrated lead screw stepper motors and a front mounted toolhead. I believe this gives me as much Z as I can get without any issues anywhere. Even with a top mounted toolhead though, I believe the Hydra has more than enough height off the arms to compensate for the additional 20mm of vertical travel. Only thing I lose it about 20mm of space above the gantry.

[severe glade]

aight cool, seems like an easy upgrade then

[rough stream]

I'm guessing this is your full metal AWD mod?

[unreal lake]

That would be correct.

[severe glade]

hell yeah my lasercut parts from xometry arrived
black anodized

[uneven solar]

how much did you pay

[severe glade]

with taxes and shipping 103€

[uneven solar]

oh yikes

[severe glade]

shipping was expensive

[uneven solar]

did you upload everything separately

[severe glade]

on xometry you can upload it all in 1 or 2 files

laserboost doesnt like that

[uneven solar]

hmm

did you just pay a lot for anodizing or something?

with 2 files i think i had like a 40 eur quote

[severe glade]

yeah why tf did i get it anodized xD
35€ excluding vat with no anodizing rn

i wasted so much money

[uneven solar]

also, how much did you pay for shipping

i thought they were cut in germany

[severe glade]

nope, in china

[uneven solar]

hmm

[severe glade]

apparently not that much, maybe it was laserboost where the shipping was expensive

[uneven solar]

20?

[severe glade]

7,80€

[uneven solar]

are you sure its not germany lol

[severe glade]

yes

[uneven solar]

how come i get to pay 3x the shipping lol

how did you source the spacers and etc.

[severe glade]

Definitely from china

[severe glade]

idk lol

[severe glade]

aliexpress

[shut pewter]

100 with ano is cheap

We are paying around 90 shipped for 7075 in the US.

[slow pelican]

i paid 110 euro shipped for mine, unfinished

[ocean yoke]

The fun story is 1 set is 102 euro, 2 sets will be about 120, etc

[uneven solar]

its actually the other way around with xometry

up to like 4 units it gets cheaper (not per unit, total price goes down, its insane)

[ocean yoke]

How it is "the other way around"?

[uneven solar]

one sec

[verbal burrow]

nice file lmfao

[uneven solar]

backstory: someone i know said they'd pay good money for a fallout collectible playing card that also works as a bottle opener, so i thought i'd get a quote for a card shaped cut

[shut pewter]

You seemed confused... Parts are always cheaper with higher quantities. Your paying for setup costs.

[uneven solar]

total price is cheaper

not just part price

[shut pewter]

Doesn't matter

[uneven solar]

ok

[severe glade]

wdym, total price going down with more parts is definitely not right
ofc the price per part goes down, but the total price should still be more

[shut pewter]

It's a automated quoting system

[severe glade]

its an automated quoting system with a bug then lol

[shut pewter]

It's not smart or logical other than more parts is cheaper

See it all the time

[severe glade]

huh for some reason i bought 2 pulleys with 8mm bore
why did i do that 🤔

are there any motors with 8mm shaft?

[stuck belfry]

Yes, 8mm shaft, 55mm long for double shear. LDO has them and Stepper Online now too

[heady solar]

can you link stepper online?

[severe glade]

https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/nema-17-high-temp-stepper-motor-55ncm-77-93oz-in-55mm-round-shaft-insulation-class-h-180c-17hs19-2504s-h-v1
i found this one

are those actually good? @stuck belfry

it doesnt have an 8mm shaft tho

i can barely find any long shaft nema17 motors
the only other ones are https://3do.dk/en/motors/1235-nema17-super-power-42sth48-2804ah-s80-2.html

[shut pewter]

https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/nema-17-high-temp-stepper-motor-55ncm-77-93oz-in-55mm-8mm-round-shaft-insulation-class-h-180c-17hs19-2504s-h-v2

[severe glade]

i think the 9mm bom is missing 4 F695RS Bearings

[stuck belfry]

I slept already, but turtlecrawler sent the link. Given the model it's based on, yes they are good but I did not start my build yet so I can't speak from my own experience.

[slow pelican]

@shut pewter the 5mm spacers on the aliexpess link don't fit M5's i got 4 bags of them at different lengths none of them fit so you might wanna remove it or update it

[shut pewter]

It's the only option

Does look like the page is down in the US at least

Not much I can do about that

[severe glade]

which link specifically? i got some spacers where i had to remove a little burr on one end, but they fit fine otherwise

[slow pelican]

idk i tried to drill them abit but couldnt get it much

ill print some for now

[shut pewter]

Also looks like most of not all of the links are down for the US.

Not sure on reliable alternatives right now.

Did you get smooth spacers

Post pictures

[shut pewter]

Are they threaded?

Can't tell much with the lighting

[slow pelican]

nope

[shut pewter]

Can you measure with calipers

ID and OD

[slow pelican]

4.15ID 8.03OD

[shut pewter]

They drilled those to be threaded

[slow pelican]

no threads inside xD

[shut pewter]

I know

But that's the drill size for a m5 thread

[slow pelican]

oh

[shut pewter]

Probably just got mixed up in a box

[slow pelican]

idk guess my luck since i got 2 bags of each length

[shut pewter]

I would probably just print some parts to hold them in a vise, then drill then out to 4.5mm or so, then 5.2mm

Lathe would be ideal, but most do not have access to one.

[severe glade]

ye aluminum drills nicely
my countersink bit went in like butter

[severe glade]

@shut pewter i guess you forgot to count the flanged bearings used in the 9mm x joints
please update the bom so no one else ends up missing some bearings 😄

[shut pewter]

I'll need a reminder tomorrow, have a friend coming over in a little bit and won't have time to fix it today

Really won't tomorrow either, but I a better chance tomorrow lol

[severe glade]

aight xD

[woven sand]

20 should be the correct amount

[shut pewter]

Need 4 more

For the live idler

[woven sand]

forgot those

[severe glade]

how important are good quality bearings btw? i just ordered some random f695rs bearings off amazon, is that fine?

[shut pewter]

Easy for me to overlook that stuff because I end up with a lot of extra hardware from doing dev work

[broken venture]

Its the factory. Mine also just came like that. Chances are they closing up and just clearing inventory before vanishing

[opal spindle]

any updates on this I currently have a Orbiter v3 (with toolboard) on my ender 5 pro and am contemplating upgrading to Mercury if I can keep my extruder

[heady solar]

e34m1 might have a mod for it

or maybe eva 2.4, as its pretty dated and might have something

[opal spindle]

maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but I haven't managed to find one for the SO3 I did make some quick mounts to fit it and my btt eddy on my exoslides so If I have to end up drafting my own solution I'm ok with trying it, but a tried and tested option does seem like a better choice ( I'm having enough y layer shift and other movement issues that I'm contemplating throwing away the entire motion system if not the whole printer)

[heady solar]

SO3?

[heady solar]

are you using exoslides on merc?

[heady solar]

what current are you running your motors at?

[opal spindle]

Smart orbiter v3
Nope not on merc till I can figure out a carriage system hence my question (currently running klipper off of a pi 4)
I tuned the currents a while back so I don't remember what I set that at exactly (at this point it's probably worth it to re-do that) I'm waiting for belt clips to arrive so I can replace the belts with gates belts
The printer has had pretty much everything modified or replaced on it short of going corexy (dual Z, bed, bed heater, klipper, toolhead(twice), bl touch then eddy)every time I fix an issue a new one pops up,😅 I'm getting dangerously close to reenacting the printer scene from Office Space 🤣

I manage to get the test prints perfect and then once I'm a few prints in the failures start sneaking in and stacking up

🤷🏻‍♂️

On the upside I'm getting great at re-tuning and rebuilding the machine 🫠

On the downside the stock electronics enclosure has 2.5 completely stripped screws😮‍💨 from all the times I had to remove and replace it

[heady solar]

stock enclosure should use m3 if Im correct...

[opal spindle]

Yup now one uses m4 (because creality pot metal doesn't hold threads all that well if you remove and replace a screw enough times)

[heady solar]

you could go cheapo and just straightup stick din rails to the back of the printer

[opal spindle]

Not the worst idea honestly if I don't end up going with mercury, the motors and their drivers/board were next on my list of parts to upgrade/replace (let the sunk costs continue!)

Unless I decide to just vhb tape everything in place

[heady solar]

you can start with electronics enclosure without going mercury

[opal spindle]

Yeah the enclosure is on the books as soon as I can get the printer printing again: mercury is if the lower friction options don't work (in order: tensioners [done: didn't help], new gates belts, vrefs, drivers/electronics)

[heady solar]

I would do gates during merc conversion

also, drivers/electronics likely wont help much unless youre running higher speeds than stock

[opal spindle]

I am definitely running faster than stock (~120mm) is it much faster? Idk🤷🏻‍♂️

[heady solar]

ah. stock creality board starts to suffer there lol

[opal spindle]

Yeah that's my suspicion, I have removed the load from the extruder completely from it so the only things it's for is the xyz motors and bed heater at this point (the extruder is on the SO3 toolboard directly off of a USB to the pi)

[heady solar]

I would be scared to anyhting over 60mm/s without communication to the drivers 😂

[opal spindle]

I was able to get some surprisingly good prints before the current issue cropped up the exoslides and lots of input shaping plus full decoupling from the table really helped

(The printer is sitting on a 2" upholstery foam block with porcelain paver on top)

Inspired by this video:
https://youtu.be/y08v6PY_7ak

[heady solar]

this is a good idea

[heady solar]

I would recommend getting rid of cablechins once converting to m1.1 as they can add drag

[opal spindle]

I probably will once I upgrade to a stiffer carriage the cable chains really helped by isolating movement of the cables to inline with the axis of movement which helped solve an earlier issue where the stiffness of the cable bundle was able to impart enough off axis torque to the too head that I was getting almost a mm off of level when the carriage was away from the center of the bed

[heady solar]

wow, that bad? interesting. I would be thinking it might add more... I do run my cables pretty stiff, but with higher spec motors, currents, etc. so idk how it would go with stock setup

[opal spindle]

One thing to note: with the moment arm of the top mounted carriage does induce enough torque on the printer that it is worthwhile to maybe add some additional ballast to the base to help dampen the motion

[opal spindle]

Yeah the are stiffer than the stock carriage but nowhere near as much as advertised

As for the chains I have sure that they are not interfering with the motion when I installed them but I can see where a less meticulous instillation can cause problems the y axis chain is pretty loosely attached at the bottom and the x axis really is mostly helping with increasing the bend radius the cables experience (I did not print my own and I'm glad that I didn't, some of the files I've seen don't have nearly the bend radius restrictions that the commercial ones do)

Here's how much movement you're getting from relatively small movements with what is probably an insufficient mass on the bottom

[heady solar]

WOW
that is quite the extreme case. Could you try putting it down on the ground with no cement/pad for comparison?

[opal spindle]

I can, once this print completes (or fails)

I did input shaping with the printer on the ground in that state, It actually doesn't look like there's much going on so I'm assuming the energy turns into vibrations

The paper is quite dense and heavy but the foam is quite soft so from the perspective of the webcam everything is rock solid despite the flimsy half printed camera mount

(Vhb tape and kapton take can be marvelous things)

🤪

[heady solar]

can you show some graphs?

[opal spindle]

Sure Let me go look at my pc

[heady solar]

https://tenor.com/view/typing-laptop-cat-busy-cute-gif-5822667

[opal spindle]

these were with the printer set on the ground with no isolation

[heady solar]

solid peaks

how does table compare wo isolation

low hz ranges tho...

[opal spindle]

I don't have the graphs for these anymore but I belive these were with the isolation

[heady solar]

https://tenor.com/view/crazyeyes-stevebuscemi-bigeyes-gif-10061246384382346994

[opal spindle]

let me see if I can manage to figure out how to generate some graphs from this

[heady solar]

~/klipper/scripts/calibrate_shaper.py /tmp/resonances_y_*.csv -o /tmp/shaper_calibrate_y.png

[opal spindle]

yeah I was trying to do it without using winscp to dump those files back on the pi and mobaxXerm to re-generate those graphs

so pretty similar main peaks with some noise across the band with the dampening that I assume is the accelerometer not really having an accurate frame of reference

ideally I'd have another accelerometer affixed to the bed and I'd subtract the difference between the two but so far doing the input shaping off of the damper seems to be pretty effective

[heady solar]

you want your ADXL as close to the nozzle as possible

[opal spindle]

I the SO3 has one integrated on the tool board and the the other one I use clamps directly to the nozzle

(kusa pro v1)

[heady solar]

I personally dont trust toolboards. especially on plastic toolheads

[opal spindle]

fair enough the SO3 is all metal and from my testing they output numbers close enough that the final input shaper values come out identical

[heady solar]

ah, true.

[opal spindle]

the reason I want a second accelerometer is because I don't really care how much the printer vibrates in an absolute sense I only care how much it vibrates relative to the print surface

[heady solar]

I only care how much transfers to my print

and ANY vibrations can btw

including a wobbly table

your best case scenario is having a tungsten cube strapped to the bottom of your pritner 😂

[opal spindle]

too much mass on the bottom can cause the system to be over dampened which would cause the paver to act like a solid table and reflect those vibrations right back into the printer

I'm not printing anything all that big, flimsy or tall typically so as long as my bed adhesion is solid and the printer doesn't hit anything the bed relative to the print head is rock solid

[heady solar]

it could. It really depends on rigidity

Im heading to bed tho atm

[opal spindle]

wobbly tables tend to reflect vibrations between themselves, the floor and the printer so imho the foam helps

[opal spindle]

I'll head back there as well (I got out to find the charts)

thanks for the reply and convo btw!

[meager laurel]

anyone looking for the live idler set screws, nindejin on ali sell 2.5mm ones which work perfectly

just shoot them a message asking for them

[rough stream]

So you have to ask them specifically about them?

[meager laurel]

yeah, i got a bag of 50 lol

Pretty much smallest size

[blissful creek]

Got a link by chance?

[meager laurel]

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000380804647.html
This is the link they gave me for the order. It wasn't listed on their page

[meager laurel]

https://a.aliexpress.com/_ExI6ouG
I sent a message about this and asked for 2.5mm length

[blissful creek]

[blissful creek]

What price did they give ya?

[meager laurel]

€8.59 for 50😅

I only need 4 lol

But i wanted to swap from my hand sanded ones lol. I had to sand the hex side down to make it fit. Which made it prone to stripping

[meager laurel]

Let me know how you get on

[rough stream]

I tried to get some but there were issues so I gave up for now. Might try again in the future.

[meager laurel]

what did they say?

[rough stream]

Well, at first they told me to order the M4 x3mm and let them know so they could change it to the correct length, but the order processed so fast that the store rep couldn't adjust the order and told me to cancel it. Then he tried to send me a special one time link to order the set screws but because of the current situation between China and the US, it wouldn't allow a special order because of the high tax rate in place. So I said forget it for now

[meager laurel]

🫡

I would ship you some, but i am in ireland and you are in america lol

[sudden kite]

Feel like I should’ve opted for getting them polished maybe? Or am I overthinking it

[sudden kite]

They’re pretty rough, is it smart to sand them down with like 1k grit or will that mess up the shiny finish…

[uneven solar]

if anyone can weigh in on the dimensional accuracy part of this i'd be interested too

polishing metal isn't hard but i dunno if the material removed would cause any problems

[shut pewter]

I run mine through a tumbler overnight, or even 24 hours at times

then 2 other tumblers that polish them up, but those are shorter runs

[heady solar]

where did you get your tumbler and how much does it cost?

[shut pewter]

Hf, not cheap

The little one is loud and doesn't work great... I just use that with crushed walnut shells for polishing.

15lb one is great, but $$$$

I use that one with the green resin triangles from harbor freight along with a little bit of water.

[heady solar]

Im considering trying to DIY one

[slow pelican]

i sanded mine a bit, nothing perfect but looks better

[tender token]

Sweeettt👌👌👌 carbon steel 😈

[opal spindle]

if I'm going with a metal gantry is it still worth it to get fabreeko's kit and add stuff to it?

[slow pelican]

if you're going for double sheer support and higher belt tension then no unless you can talk to them about adding motors with longer shafts

[opal spindle]

gotcha thanks

[glad gale]

This probably isn't good

Did this happen because there is nothing other than the printed part holding it on the top?

[glad gale]

Or did I put the kit together wrong?

...... I swapped the top and bottom plates.......

... Well it's a good thing I made spare parts

[unreal lake]

The pins that support the bearings should go into the top plate as well

[glad gale]

It lasted for about 6 months at 250ish hz, it will be a world of difference with the double shear steppers and the part actually assembled correctly, lol

Nabbed ceramic hybrid bearings from fabreeko as well as the new classified steppers

[shut pewter]

Why aren't your pins sticking up past the printed inserts?

The inserts are not meant to take any of the load

[glad gale]

I mixed up the plates and put the bottom plate on the top somehow

I was surprised it lasted as long as it did

It's all getting rebuilt with the new motors, bearings and double shear

[shut pewter]

Ahh okay

[glad gale]

The best part is that it was printing great like that

Probably not for much longer judging from that crack

[ocean yoke]

The lesson learned: you can assemble however you want it still will work perfectly well (for a while)

[severe glade]

bump 😄

also what size of heated inserts do i need for the front tension towers?

oh i didnt see it says m3x4x5 in the bom
tho that feels a bit small, i think it could fit longer ones

[slow pelican]

those don't have much load on them, the load is taken by the M5 screw

when adjusting the tension u only need to loosen the M5 abit so that heatinsert doesnt need to be too strong, just be able to screw in and unscrew

the parts are designed for that size so longer heat inserts will push plastic into the groove for the screw

[shut pewter]

I've been able to tension to over 300 with them

[tender token]

Whoop whoop. All metal! 💪💪💪😎

[rough stream]

Might want to put this in the metal Hydra thread instead.

[tender token]

Yup😅

There that's better.

[glad gale]

Following up from my previous post, both stepper mounts where very close to catastrophically failing, but the only sign was a bit of dust from the belts.

I had messed up assembling both mounts but the plastic held on for dear life

[slow pelican]

how bad would it be if i took out the front 2 posts in the front towers :x

9mm GT3 doesnt fit

[shut pewter]

Gt3 fits for me

[severe glade]

oh yikes i just checked mine and its rubbing

[shut pewter]

Did you get fat posts

[slow pelican]

no, thin ones. they were one of the listed links

[severe glade]

mine are exactly 5mm od

[slow pelican]

same here

[severe glade]

i might have countersunk them slightly wonky so that could make a small difference
but its rubbing quite a lot

[slow pelican]

will try to sand them to 4mm OD see how it goes

[severe glade]

ye i guess ill try that too

if that doesnt work ill 3d print something to replace the 2 front standoffs

[slow pelican]

did u make the metric files by any chance?

[severe glade]

yup

[slow pelican]

could that be it? im also on metric

[severe glade]

i guess ill start the cad and inspect it lol

[severe glade]

i dont think so

there arent separate imperial and metric dxf files

[slow pelican]

ah right

[severe glade]

i wonder if its better to take a file and remove some material on the plates

itll need a very small file tho

[slow pelican]

dont have that xD

[supple quartz]

I ordered my LDO nebula kit

[tender token]

Nice 💪 it's a fun build!

[supple quartz]

I’ll see how it goes, because I’ve got more aftermarket parts, than not, so I was like bugger it, I’ll buy the frame kit too

[tender token]

Should be quality frames👌. I've had it cut during the beta stage.

[supple quartz]

Nice

[meager laurel]

did someone use the ratrig bearings for the 9mm fmg?

https://www.fabreeko.com/collections/ratrig/products/rat-rig-v-core-4-0-heavy-duty-idler-pulley-id5mm-od13mm-odf15mm-l12mm
These ones

[last ocean]

I think turtle uses them in his build

But are there even advantages when using them compared to normal bearing stacks + the live idlers?

[shut pewter]

Not really

[broken venture]

Single part vs many

Pretty much it

A bearing is a bearing XD

[meager laurel]

ok! no point buying it so 😅

[heady solar]

I think a few people. cant remember names, but ik someone...

[meager laurel]

🤔

[severe glade]

i think i just figured out why it doesnt fit for me lol
my belt is gt3-2mm
all my belts are gt3-3mm
1,5x the pitch makes a 20t pulley much bigger lol

i cant seem to find any gt3-2mm pulleys tho

i know some ppl here are using gt3 belts, where did you get your pulleys?

[shut pewter]

So 3mm pitch?

[severe glade]

well i think 3mm pitch wont fit

unless i go with less teeth

i would prefer to go with 2mm pitch, since i have a 2mm pitch belt and then a 20t pulley would have the same gear ratio as normal gt2 setups
but im not sure gt3 2mm pitch 20t pulleys exist

[slow pelican]

I removed the front 2 posts on mine

nothing seems wrong ot

[severe glade]

im assuming you have 3mm pitch belt and pulleys?

[slow pelican]

i need to rebuild my left X gantry though it shakes a lot

no idea

2mm pitch on the pully

but im using gt2 ones

3mm gt3

belt

but yeah my graphs are trash

[severe glade]

2 vs 3mm pitch
Gt2 vs gt3-3

[slow pelican]

i saw those but i was worried they would hit the other belt

[severe glade]

so your gt2 pulleys didnt fit?? thats weird

[slow pelican]

for the front towers you mean?

for those im using smooth idlers

on the X gantry everthing fits fine

[severe glade]

oh ye right
nvm what i said lol

[slow pelican]

the front tower is where it didnt fit so i removed the front 2 posts

[shut pewter]

You need 2mm pitch

Gt3 is available in 2mm pitch

[slow pelican]

I ordered some GT2 9mm belts

I wasn't able to take the gt3 to above 200hz so ithink gt2 will be fine

i also don't like how heavy the gantry becomes when i move it by hand

[severe glade]

have you seen gt3 2mm pitch pulleys? i cant find any

[shut pewter]

Hey gt2 pulleys

Get

The specs are a bit of a mess with gt3 having 2 pitch options on the belts

[severe glade]

yeah

i have a gt2 belt as well, do you think i should just go full gt2 then?
or does gt3 with gt2 pulleys still have some advantages?

[slow pelican]

also turtle i think there is an error on the 9mm metric step file. I needed 2 extra 1mm spacers under the left idler otherwise it wouldnt be the same height as the rest of the system

[blissful creek]

Nope

[fickle prawn]

so, this from mellow is gt3 with 2mm pitch, right?

it doesn’t say the pitch anywhere in the description, I was just looking for a gt3 belt and now I don’t know anything anymore

[woven sand]

Yes. the 2mgt is the pitch

[severe glade]

just measure the distance between teeth
should be easy to tell

[shut pewter]

The confusion was getting gt3 3mm pitch pulleys

[supple quartz]

Hey turtle, can I ask you something. What STL's do I need to print for the 8mm shaft double sheers for 9mm belts?

[slow pelican]

the ones with F608 bearings

[supple quartz]

nothing else?

[shut pewter]

Depends on what bearing you go with

[supple quartz]

im using the flanged 608's and the 698's you suggested

sorry 689's

[sudden kite]

What’s the best cheap way to source the hardware for the full metal gantry…

[heady solar]

no good way thats cheap. youre sinking $300 at a min into this

[sudden kite]

Well cheapest, I have the plates already but I just need everything else listed in the BOM

but gosh I wasn’t expecting the full metal to be that pricey

I’ve already blown like 600 preparing for nebula and hydra😞

[heady solar]

thats actually a really good price dang

[sudden kite]

Still got panels and hardware to order so that’s another like 300 going into it sigh

Im gonna be so broke but whatever im calling it an investment

[heady solar]

under $1k for this type of build is amazing!! be proud of your shopping skills, I need to learn better ones clearly

[sudden kite]

I’ve honestly just been buying fabreeko kits and it sets me up pretty good🔥

[supple quartz]

im already 1800 in to my build.....

[glad gale]

I don't want to talk about this subject

Let's just say I get weird looks when I tell people.

[supple quartz]

i know that feeling, but ive got nebula, 10mm mic6 build plate

[long bloom]

@shut pewter Checking the following:
https://github.com/TurtleCrawler/Mercury-One.1---Full-Metal-Gantry/blob/main/6mm/README.md (lists M3x35 standoffs - qty 6, no M3x30 standoffs), while
https://github.com/TurtleCrawler/Mercury-One.1---Full-Metal-Gantry/blob/main/6mm/Metric STL Files/Stepper Mount STLs/README.md (M3x30 standoffs - qty 8, no M3x35 standoffs).
Seems like 2nd BOM is not accurate - based on CAD file it should read M3x35 standoffs - qty 6? Please confirm.

[heady solar]

he just put the wrong name. dimensionally theyre 30mm

[long bloom]

Quantity is off as well, that is why I am checking it

[shut pewter]

I see

I just deleted the wrong line

[long bloom]

NP - I am building only stepper mounts at the moment and saw the issue with BOM. CAD helped to identify correct materials.

[shut pewter]

I keep finding new projects and struggle to work in older ones 🤣

[long bloom]

Totally understand. Keep on!

[supple quartz]

djesi mali 😉

[raven plume]

To be fair your new projects are pretty cool.

[shut pewter]

I'm trying to share more often as well vs waiting till things are more complete

So leads to small details getting missed

[blissful creek]

does this mean I can get u to buy things

[opal spindle]

Just ordered my laser cut parts (78.94 for full order in 7075 with both sets of xjoints if anyone is curious) but I have a question; I'm starting this from scratch (no zero merc to start with) and will be figuring the toolhead out as I go but other then the BOM for the FMG, what parts of the Zero g BOM do I also need to buy/source?

[sudden kite]

The FMG BOM for the most part is separate from the zero g BOM, so you will need basically everything listed on the zero g BOM in addition I believe, but also depends if ur going down the route of hydra and the nebula enclosure as well as anything optional you might want

[opal spindle]

not doing hydra yet, I'm already on klipper running off a pi4, I have an Smartorbiter v3 extruder(with toolboard) and I already have dual z for my bed: at this point I'm just looking to upgrade the motion system/electronics

[slow pelican]

You'll need T-nuts and a few heat inserts and whatever parts for your toolhead

[severe glade]

has anyone else had problems using the pulley tool?
the tool is breaking before the pulley core even budges
i have used it before for 6mm pulleys and it worked perfectly

The nut got pulled in, so i used some washers but even those got pulled theough the plastic

[shut pewter]

some pulleys are harder than others to de-hub

[severe glade]

im printing it again, idk how else to do it

[severe glade]

well, this time it wasnt the plastic that gave in
the m5 hex screw completely stripped
i used a ton of torque but the damn pulley didnt even move

i think ill design a tool to put in a vice
if that doesnt work ill have to try other pulleys

[stuck belfry]

I am not in a built yet. Is it to pull off the pulley, or to put it on? Worst case would be cutting off the pulley and heat it in an oven to put it on (like it is done in heavy machinery and cars)

[severe glade]

Its to pull parts off the pulley
I was also thinking about using heat, but that would end up looking very ugly i think

I got it pulled off using a very simple tool i designed and a vice

Turns out a vice is better at crushing than a screw lol

[stuck belfry]

Some load distribution I guess

[long bloom]

Hello guys, I've replaced my stepper towers to full metal ones over the weekend. Just now tried first prints, and have following problem. Belt(s) are rubbing on motor pulley, creating severe layer shifts. However, it is not constnt issue. When I wanted to re-adjust pulley position, belt was centered. I'm manually moving the printhead and seeing belts changing their heights. What could be the issue?

[shut pewter]

Need pictures

[long bloom]

(please disregard pins, those are slightly longer)

belts are tensioned at 114Hz and similarity is 95.5%

[shut pewter]

and where is it rubbing

[shut pewter]

might be a frame squareness issue

[long bloom]

I'll double check it - if it comes out straight, any other tips?

[shut pewter]

could just lower the pully

unless it hits both

or just dont worry about it

it can only walk so far

[long bloom]

ok, I'll recheck frame squareness and make small adjustment to lower A motor pulley, and re-test. Thanks!

I'll let you know it issue was resolved

[broken venture]

Or just throw in a 9mm pulley and forget about it

[severe glade]

i tightened by belts to 230hz now
do they keep the tension over time?

also it has much more friction than i expected

[pallid quest]

What belts are you using?

[severe glade]

gt3 9mm

gt2 prolly has less friction, right?

[pallid quest]

Double check the back of your stepper towers haven’t lifted of you haven’t bolted the back down

You have double sheer bearings for the stepper too?

[severe glade]

i bolted the back down so no lifting

whats the max recommended without double sheer? xD

kinda forgot about that

[pallid quest]

Gt2 belts

What motors are you running?

[severe glade]

the fabreeko merc kit ones

honeybadger 42HS48 25044A

im wanna get long shaft motors for double sheer but didnt buy any yet
can i do 170hz without double sheer?

[shut pewter]

110hz is without double shear

unless you have 8mm shafts

there is a calculator pinned in here

[supple quartz]

Turtle, can you explain what they mean by the frequency? I've been seeing it more and more

[shut pewter]

It's a way to measure belt tension

[severe glade]

the tighter the belt, the faster it swings
so when you string a known length of the belt the frequency is a good way of measuring tension

[heady solar]

@severe glade can i see your build? youve been exciting me with all your questions 😄

[severe glade]

sure, one sec