hmmm he does get raku innate
#Persona 4 Golden | Clean Balance Tweaks
dusky thicket
supple oak
well yeah but i'd never use that unironically in a normal battle
dusky thicket
will have to think on it more
supple oak
- i have marakukaja already
supple oak
@dusky thicket
Yosuke feels 10/10 so far and there's really nothing I would change in his kit, even if he suffers a bit from just not being specialized enough into anything he still pulls his weight and teddie's existence justifies bringing yosuke into dungeons regardless for junes bomber, which is pretty useful at times
Chie feels equally great and the new changes to boss affinities have finally allowed her to make good use of her critical prowess. Atom Smasher feels pretty good, but I can't help but question the decision behind including it over Gale Slash. It's good, that's not the issue, but the 35% fear proc maybe puts Yosuke at yet another disadvantage. In any case it worked fine so it's whatever. Bufudyne on B5 feels really late but when you consider how buffed it was, it's maybe not that big of a deal.
I'm thinking of nerfing Dragon Hustle to only buff Attack and Defense. That way, a Divine Graced Youthful Wind would give the remaining buff and heal the party, and with the crit changes you'd finally be able to run a viable Yosuke/Chie/Kanji party, which sounds fun. (Cost would be reduced to perhaps only 96 SP as a result)
Yukiko's midgame struggles due to Teddie's superior healing. Tarunda, Amrita, instakills and the accidental Recarm exclusivity (which I've decided to keep) give her enough of a justifiable edge to take her on Void Quest, but really quite not enough since you'll never reach level 43 there in Very Hard without a grind. Frankly, change Diarama (33) > Fire Boost (35) > Maragion (39) > Mediarama (43) to Fire Boost (33) > Mediarama (36) > Maragion (40), and remove Diarama. It may sound weird, but she starts innately with Dia and immediately replaces it with Media one level later. She doesn't need Diarama. She learns Mediarahan before Teddie, and Diarahan later, but at this point her damage should be superior? So it isn't as big of an issue. Swapping B1 and B2 might help.
Kanji is fine and I don't have much to say other than Vicious Strike is maybe a little shit for B2, and he should not have Auto Rakukaja if Teddie does too. It may sound weird, but I'm thinking Ghastly Wail for SL8 to synergize with Chie. It fits the idea of Atom Smasher/Fear-inflicting dude but without the AoE phys, which Chie has.
Teddie is kinda nuts from the start due to innate Mediarama + Blessed Hands from Tanaka, but this is fine. The accidental Auto-Rakukaja instead of Recarm feels like a blessing in disguise as it gives Yukiko something special and fits the theme we were going for of a Aigis-like bulky healer contrasting Yukiko's glass cannon kit. I don't know how i feel about the Kaja/Kunda changes yet especially Dekunda and Masukunda since it feels like a mess of shifting shit around with Kanji, but I can't speak on that yet.
Haven't unlocked Naoto yet.
Before continuing the game, I would therefore like to:
- Change Youthful Wind to a "Mediaradyne" type skill so it can be affected by Divine Grace
- Remove Sukukaja from Dragon Hustle, change cost accordingly
- Change the aforementioned Yukiko leveling progressions, and swap B1/B2
- Insert Ghastly Wail into Kanji's SL8
- I already did this, but noting here, making Man's Way more akin to P3R's Jack Bros (it does no dmg if it misses however I'm pretty sure?)
- Teddie will retain the accidental Auto-Raku over Recarm
true gorge
Why don't you make dragon hustle attack+critical, something that chie specializes on
though this is kinda different from the og game
supple oak
because that strays too far from the original intent of the skill, and simply only removing sukukaja allows for yosuke to slot into a team where she exists
true gorge
Did you buff youthful wind at all?
supple oak
It works like cadenza in the current build but that's only because I haven't reverted/changed it yet
sorry
no
it works like mediarama
i removed the 50% force
supple oak
im psure i copied it
dusky thicket
i don't agree with removing diarama entirely I would rather see its level reduced
true gorge
I found that a power of 180 worked pretty well, heals around 200 HP by the end game (Lv 70s)
supple oak
i don't agree with removing diarama entirely I would rather see its level reduce...
you could do that but i assure you it would just get deleted the second you unlock it
theres nothing in there i'd replace
definitely not media
dusky thicket
most of this stuff seems reasonable tho. kanji ghastly wail is really funny
worldly jasper
no diarama on yukiko's kinda weird
i'd just make the skill earlier lol
like
yukari/mitsuru get it at 24/25 in p3
and yukiko has it at 33 for some reason
dusky thicket
that's fine
supple oak
<@188710504313782272>
Yosuke feels 10/10 so far and there's really nothing I w...
Haven't unlocked Naoto yet.
no bikes
i am in favor however
diarama was useful, diarahan is obvious
he has no aoe heal until SL11, so this is fine.
worldly jasper
diarahan really not good enough to replace aoe healing even if its early regardless
so its fine
true gorge
I just ran confuse on yosuke for the whole game, so I ditched diarama kinda early (pretty much after rise's dungeon)
What are you running on Yosuke rn meovv?
true gorge
That's a lot of debuffs haha
supple oak
- Storm Vow (30%)
true gorge
I meant aliments my bad
supple oak
yeah i made a point of not deleting makajam yet
true gorge
Oh but you are not running multi-wind yet
worldly jasper
no maha-garu is funny but ig the phys would be nicer
true gorge
Bro I had +40% fire dmg on yukiko and she hit like a truck
worldly jasper
def remove some ailment or phys thing for mahagarura tho
supple oak
i will yeah
true gorge
I brought both yukiko and teddie for the mitsuo fight
supple oak
makajam will be gone soon
true gorge
I was Lv ~32
supple oak
alhamdulillah
true gorge
In my experience, yukiko is a must have for bosses.
supple oak
in my experience she has no purpose in life (yet)
true gorge
You are running MC for tarunda right?
supple oak
only if due to hand rng
because i do not backtrack once
i climb dungeon do quests and thats end of story
there's also the fact that in your run, bosses all had sharp student
but my minibosses are harder
true gorge
Well, for super low level runs yukiko is pretty good, but i guess she does need something if you are not playing on very hard to get an edge over teddie.
For me, if I did not have tarunda+marakukaja always up, I usually end up getting 1 shotted so she has to be there by necessity lol.
supple oak
well if you watch the fight i do get oneshotted at times i just do a bit of risk managament
halfway through i had to switch chie to magic only because phys was putting her at too much risk
high cost is good design!
true gorge
Well, if you had kept tarunda up, you could have removed all the risks at the expense of dmg.
I do remember I was almost always dry on SP due to how long the fights dragged.
supple oak
yes but then less dmg is more SP strain which implies delayed risk
you wanna avoid attrition
true gorge
I had to use the bead melons to keep the fight going
In your case, you can afford to go all out, but I had to rely on dodges sometimes since, even if I had defense stacked, I could still get 1 shotted if, let's say, mitsuo uses gigadyne and targets the MC as follow up.
I don't think a lot of enemies are weak to fire in void quest
supple oak
two or three are and agilao on izanagi saved my ass
true gorge
But I remember that yukiko nuked everything with the multi-fire skills regardless.
supple oak
because they also have wind
true gorge
Though I did have a fire vow too
Eh honestly I think yukiko is fine. But I got mediarama almost by the end of magatsu inaba.
supple oak
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
true gorge
or was it mediarahan
supple oak
bro if you're actually doing a LL run then none of your comments are relevant as feedback
level 43 in magatsu is ridiculous
true gorge
I mentioned that I was like 65 by the end of magatsu inaba. I had divine grace+mediarama at that point.
Okay, yukiko does have good use. Even if you are not super under-leveled, you could technically just use her to increase party survivability since Teddie does not have access to marakukaja at this point.
supple oak
now that i think of it i might actually just forget mazio on kanji
because the artisan can upgrade his weapon to have elec element
no point having a weak magic skill when your weapon + elec boost will cover it for free
but i need summer to end
and it wont end before the lab
does it? 
true gorge
I think lab still takes place during summer.
true gorge
I think masukunda worked pretty well on kanji, now that I think about it.
The only issue is that it was pretty expensive
and pretty much drained his SP
I had an idea for a workaround. What if the cost of kunda skulls were decreased?
Kaja skills always affect all of your party members, but most debuffs are used on boss enemies.
Persona 5 Strikers made it so that ma-kaja skills cost 24 SP, but Kunda skills cost 16 SP.
This can also help naoto out since most of her new (debuffs) are multi-target and drain SP pretty quickly.
true gorge
Got it.
One more thing: remember that if someone is not using a fresh save, most inherent skills will not be removed (Auto-rakukaja on teddie, I think).
I think naoto has tempest slash replaced with invigorate 1, ass well as now having matarunda innately, but this should not be an issue. I think she will just start with 8 skill slots.
supple oak
Got it.
One more thing: remember that if someone is not using a fresh save, most...
Teddie was changed to retain Auto-Rakukaja like I said above
naoto is what it is
dusky thicket
yeah meovv liked the auto-raku on Teddie even if it wasn't intentional
supple oak
there are no mistakes
only happy little accidents
all the situps made him op
https://tenor.com/view/yu-trying-to-push-teddie-persona-4-golden-persona-yu-gif-13567772634627913479
true gorge
supple oak
oh yeah it's in the game
dusky thicket
resist phys + auto-raku is very funny but tbf, resist phys is B5
supple oak
resist phys + auto-raku is very funny but tbf, resist phys is B5
by the time you get B5 you already have auto maraku on the mc
dusky thicket
<@188710504313782272>
Yosuke feels 10/10 so far and there's really nothing I w...
alright, I'm home, here are some more detailed thoughts.
yosuke: I think if he is not specialized enough, that's fine. he is meant as an early all arounder. as long as he has utility, great!
chie: the reason she has atom smasher is mainly down to power difference - according to your sheet, gale slash is not an upgrade to rampage despite being received 9 levels later. it's a sidegrade. i think gale slash simply needs more power then I'd be happy to switch it back over. as for bufudyne - she's not really meant as a magic user anyways but with ice boost + bufudyne (+ ice amp if available via accessory or something), i'd think she would still be able to put out more damage with ice than one might expect, as long as you spec into it. also, I like the proposed change for dragon hustle, fully support it
yukiko: here are the proposed changes. changes I made from your initial proposal
- moved diarama to 25 instead of 28. I'm doing this as a first pass bc I feel it could even go a little lower (the earliest player persona to get it gets it at lvl23), but i'm not sure if it's pushing into being too early
- moved recarm from 26 to 27. this provides a bit more of a gap with diarama being present now. (alternatively, move diarama to 24 and leave recarm be)
- moved mediarama to 37 instead of 36. teddie joins the team at lvl 35; yukiko getting it only 1 level later feels just a little silly, 2 levels feels a little more reasonable (and it's clear they wanted teddie to have an initial advantage as a healer)
other than that, there is still a large gap between 40 and 51, since spirit drain is essentially a filler skill. I would like to see one more skill to fill this in if possible
kanji: B2 could be upgraded from vicious strike (140 base) to arrow rain (2 x 45 base). honestly though there's a decent argument that it shouldn't be that good since this is the only AOE phys skill he gets. idk. as for ghastly wail, I don't think I fw it and the main reason is because it has such limited utility. it's purely there to synergize with chie. that's it. I'm not convinced that an SL skill should be that niche. still, I think removing auto-raku on kanji is the right play, and it does need a replacement
teddie: I do think samarecarm should be removed from his SL8 (which necessitates a replacement) but perhaps it could fit in bike, replacing mustard bomb? then you have to go out of your way to get it instead of just using yukiko/items. I'm also a little confused about the kaja changes you mention bc there were no kaja changes. masukunda, you could probably argue anti-synergy with Yosuke + Kanji wants it more due to his low ag, then maybe life drain could go in Teddie's SL (in stock, it's in bike lol). don't have much opposition to reverting some of those changes you mention but they do need replacement skills of some sort to fill in.
supple oak
alright, I'm home, here are some more detailed thoughts.
yosuke: I think if he ...
Yosuke: All clear
Chie: All clear, justification is valid and I'm good with this
Yukiko: Heavily disagree on all points, especially the last one. Teddie joins at a much higher level than Yukiko's especially on Very Hard so it would not be a simple one level gap.
I also don't feel comfortable accepting any retroactive skill changes to go before level 28. I made use of Recarm, but I did reject learning Diarama (Had no use for it on her). Maybe it's fine because Recarm is the same as an item, so the testing isn't hugely affected, but keep this in mind.
Kanji: I forgot Vicious Strike is AoE. Do not change this lol it's very much fine then. I disagree with the notion that SL skills should not be "niche use", Yosuke gets Trafuri at S2 for no real good reason and the bikes are also full of padding. I don't think the skill is that bad considering his "best" kit isn't exactly hurting for slots, and the alternative is Arm Chopper, which is really really bad. I did not want him to have any attack or support since he has plenty, so something niche would be cool there.
Teddie: I am referring to the swapping of Dekunda/Marakunda and party members having duplicate buffs everywhere. I guess this is inevitable because Teddie has so many so I suppose this isn't really an issue. Don't really want to remove Samarecarm yet because I see no real replacement for it yet
dusky thicket
you're going to have to figure out whether to balance more around normal or hard XP because on anything besides very hard, a 1 level difference is almost negligible
supple oak
it's negligible in VH too
dusky thicket
referring to Teddie vs Yukiko mediarama levels
on normal XP you would have them almost at the same time because Yukiko would be around the same level as Teddie
unless you bench her I guess
supple oak
are we sure?
dusky thicket
pretty sure. maybe 1 or 2 levels lower if you fight the boss earlier but I don't see it realistically being noticeably different unless you bench her
supple oak
i hesitate because not seeing "mediarama" in the "next skill" tab is enough to make me want to bench her lol
dusky thicket
it's already in the next skill tab 😭
but I think I will move mediarama to lvl36 bc I think it is more likely that players would be below 35 than above it
(taking your suggestion pretty much)
supple oak
statistically they'll more likely be level 28 where the "next skill" is fire break lol
99% of ppl using a mod of this type will be in vh
dusky thicket
as for diarama: why are you not ok with it being a lower level? do you think it's going back around to being too strong or something or are you worried about the fact that it is untested
was not expecting you to disagree so strongly on it
considering you uh got rid of the skill in your proposal lol
supple oak
I don't want to put skills at a level behind what I currently already have, but the fact that I got rid of it instantly is the only reason I'd be ok with it
same for recarm because i only used it once and beads exist
dusky thicket
I think it's one of those things where it should be conceptually considered because it rly isn't worth another playthrough on VH to do it. of course, I recall you saying you were wanting to do a normal/hard playthrough as well to test, so perhaps it is something that could go in for testing?
I don't really see an issue with diarama being made earlier given you immediately got rid of it, that's not ideal for a skill like that lol. recarm being moved around is just a side effect of lowering diarama
supple oak
i dont see myself playing the entire game on normal
i lowered for yukiko but didnt see the need to do more
dusky thicket
kanji: Yosuke trafuri is very early on which can be argued to have a role given early economy (you may not have Goho-Ms and you are not that skilled). the thing that bothers me most about ghastly wail is that it is purely there to work with one other specific party member. idt any other party member (besides protag) benefits from it at all. feels a bit too niche in that regard.
I wonder if there is a way to take that idea and work with it bc I do like the general concept, but if not, then I might just roll with it anyways to be completely honest lol
dusky thicket
i lowered for yukiko but didnt see the need to do more
would you have gotten rid of diarama if you had gotten it at 28
maybe that's not the best question to ask. maybe you would've gotten rid of diarama even at lvl 20
supple oak
i would've always gotten rid of it because i have divine grace and mediarama and nothing else she has is worth removing
at 20
hm
no
it would've replaced Dia
dusky thicket
but the moment you have 8 skills, you'd probably have removed it?
and Teddie: yeah, I want more feedback on that eventually. P4 doesn't have enough skill variety...
I feel like 20 is too early for diarama lol but
supple oak
i feel like 2 samarecarm users is fine
dusky thicket
looking at other persona games for rough precedent everyone seems to get it around mid-late 20s. given P4G gives Yukiko divine grace I do think even 28 is probably too late for it
supple oak
yukari and ken
dusky thicket
no, diarama
supple oak
ah lol
dusky thicket
p3p gives him diarama innate and mediarama literally the next level
very funny
probably the right choice
fes ken gets those heals embarrassingly late
anyways, yukari gets diarama at 25
really weird that yukiko gets recarm before diarama when all other healers get diarama first (stock)
so with that in mind: I still think yukiko could safely get diarama at lvl 25 (or even 24) with recarm being 2 levels above it... or reverse them.... something along those lines. diarama at 28 feels a little too late still
this may be a little much for diarama but I'll leave it for feedback
do you have power charge on kanji yet?
supple oak
yea
dusky thicket
how is it?
supple oak
too strong, but do not under any circumstance remove it
dusky thicket
S8 power charge S6 ghastly wail?
supple oak
no keep it where it is
dusky thicket
alright
supple oak
if you're wondering how a specific skill impacted the game, remember i recorded every second of battle and its pinned
dusky thicket
so, there we go
it's easier to ask you to briefly sum it up than to watch an hour of footage ngl 😆
supple oak
true but you dont need the whole hour
dusky thicket
I think the main points of contention left for now are masukunda on teddie and dekunda doubled up on kanji
you'll have to let me know how you feel about those
definitely glad yosuke is working out well overall
supple oak
pc insisted masukunda is super useful (i guess i'll see for myself) and the double dekunda is whatever
masukunda and masukukaja is synergy not anti synergy like you said before
dusky thicket
im not really a huge fan of duped skills if possible but like...
25 -> 27 -> 34 is crazy
hmmm stagnant air is a funny skill
that might be a decent mid game skill to throw on someone
true gorge
I vouch to reduce the level at which fatal end is earned
In my playthrough, I did not get it until I was in the lab dungeon, so I had to fight Mitsuo with Kill Rush. As a result, Yosuke outshined him in the phys department for a while.
I also wanted to add that some skills like arms/spells master are not really worth the investment.
Since they have an accessory that can pretty much free up the skill slot. I think, at the very least, that the last bike skill should have something that you can't get anywhere else.
supple oak
incredibly disagree with both of those points
i have absolutely no idea how in the hell you managed to reach mitsuo with kill rush still
genuinely you either skipped fights or are just not fighting hands properly
also strongly disagree on the master passives
spell master is only obtainable on 3/20 and arms master in magatsu inaba, and both are RNG drops
plus using the accessory as a crutch severely impacts the other things you can build the party member with
all around a bad call
true gorge
I just went up the dungeon, fought everything that moved, did the optional fight, and fought the boss. I just did not encounter a lot of gold hands, and did not use kanji for the last dungeon.
You can get spell master from the heaven fight (the optional boss), and the arms master accessory from magatsu inaba, which is littered with gold chests — especially on floor 6 of magatsu mandala. I ended up with 2 rudra rings without much effort, even if it is still luck dependent.
Sheesh man no need to get like that, I'm just sharing my experience.
Either way bro:
Same power level
Yosuke gets it at like Lv27
Kanji gets it at Lv34
Do with that what you will.
Okay I was looking at the wrong balance sheet, nvm that.
supple oak
i dont have the heaven boss on my list of accessory drops at all
anyway i see your point but kanji has power charge nearly guaranteed if you're savvy which is a 2.5x multiplier to any power you could possibly bring up
and kill rush can technically surpass fatal end if all three hits proc
supple oak
this may be a little much for diarama but I'll leave it for feedback
yukiko B1/B2 swap, no?
dusky thicket
oh did you want matarunda earlier?
don't have a problem with that but I must've missed that comment or something
dusky thicket
it's funny bc now Yukiko gets one good bike skills and then a bunch of mid bike skills before a really good one at the end lol
supple oak
It works like cadenza in the current build but that's only because I haven't rev...
actually it was healing 100% hp lol i forgot abt that
dusky thicket
lol so it was mediarahan + masukukaja?
supple oak
yeah i changed it on a whim and didn't fix it until now because i hadnt reached that point yet
i think every change is implemented and i can continue now
gotta remember some descriptions later
dusky thicket
oh now I get why you wanted to be more conservative with some of the changes
didn't realize you wanted to make future changes lol, I thought you were just planning on doing a playthrough and then changing things afterwards
dusky thicket
I would think that retroactive changes based on your experience playing through it would be like a good thing lol
like I get the logic behind what you're doing too but if there are aspects that could be improved, I don't really think you need to do another playthrough/testing to determine like hey, Chie gets gale slash too late and it's a sidegrade over rampage, she should get something else (just a hypothetical example)
supple oak
it depends
its not like a definitive thing
but if something saves my ass and was the defining factor behind winning or going back to grind i'll be more hesitant to go change it
dusky thicket
yeah that's a little different
still mainly thinking about those diarama/recarm changes for yukiko
supple oak
those are fine i did the thing
dusky thicket
gotcha - did you do 25/27 or 24/26? (or something else)
supple oak
gotcha - did you do 25/27 or 24/26? (or something else)
i did whats on sheets?
dusky thicket
it was proposed but I didn't actually come to a conclusion I had presented 2 options lol
sounds like 25/27 it is then
supple oak
refreshing kaiwan for victory cry kinda reminds me you can skip the entire izanagi thing and go straight to agneyastra at level 24 which is buffed due to the rank rebalance
supple oak
but, looking at the mechanic
if you're savvy you can do way more than just that
tbh
just through magician's existence paired with forecast you can already pull off insane chains of rank upgrading
and they all seem to be so rng based that its likely not realistic trying to stop it
actually yeah dont even need level 24
dia -> media
media -> skill change diarama
diarama -> mediarama
mediarama -> skill change diarahan
diarahan -> mediarahan
mediarahan rank 7 -> skill change into victory cry
but its such a stupid grind that i dont think it should be balanced around
balancing around rank still seems fine to me considering all personas like kaiwan do is shorten the grind/rng for someone who is savvy
supple oak
@dusky thicket I did what i should've done a long time ago
Skills (Rebal) now also includes Sword (Skillcard) rank in addition to Mutation Rank
all things considered it's actually still fairly well balanced lol... only a few outliers
lemme add it to the vanilla skill table too just to see the mess
what a mess 
yeah this was the right call
i guess it's anecdotal, but also the skill upgrades i got from keeping izanagi are coinciding near-perfectly with the skillcards that are available in the dungeon i'm currently at
so the changes seem to fit nice
ziodyne is a slight outlier
dusky thicket
nice, I'm glad it worked out
supple oak
now that im looking at this
dusky thicket
probably would need more data to know for sure about whether the skill upgrades are good or not but 1 run is helpful data lol
supple oak
in the vanilla game izanagi can actually be used as a mutation ingredient for every skill in the game
dusky thicket
jiodhain is definitely a bit of an outlier but oh well
supple oak
because Bash -> God's Hand goes through all 8 ranks
you could register in compendium for all ranks
and just do that
its an abysmally long grind
you'd get there faster with xp
but you could
so yeah, i dont think i care about balancing around mutation
im gonna get victory cry on setanta just for the funnies, but i dont think im gonna roll for early vorpal blade or anything
it isnt worth it at all
could get all the auto-mas off of ghastly wail at level 11 if you really want
auto matarukaja kinda hot
dusky thicket
broadly speaking id say that as long as you don't get strong skills too early that's fine
if you have a path to reward players for learning mutations that's pretty rad tho
supple oak
auto rakukaja changes definitely feel like the right call to me now
setanta is very accessible at level 34 with auto maraku if your Emperor level is high enough, so teddie's S2 isnt that crazy and Kanji having his S8 replaced also makes sense
supple oak
apparently the bike is much more available than i remember
you can get a few visits in during the summer but i totally missed them because of the homework thing
Yosuke
26 Aug Fri
20 Sep Tue
27 Sep Tue
26 Oct Wed
01 Nov Tue
15 Nov Tue
25 Nov Fri
17 Jan Tue
27 Jan Fri
01 Feb Wed
Chie
07 Sep Wed
11 Sep Sun
21 Sep Wed
28 Sep Wed
23 Oct Sun
09 Nov Wed
16 Nov Wed
15 Jan Sun
18 Jan Wed
25 Jan Wed
29 Jan Sun
Yukiko
28 Aug Sun
18 Sep Sun
24 Sep Sat
30 Sep Fri
16 Oct Sun
02 Nov Wed
12 Nov Sat
27 Nov Sun
14 Jan Sat
21 Jan Sat
03 Feb Fri
Kanji
05 Sep Mon
13 Sep Tue
23 Sep Fri
03 Oct Mon
21 Oct Fri
24 Oct Mon
08 Nov Tue
22 Nov Tue
13 Jan Fri
24 Jan Tue
30 Jan Mon
Teddie
03 Sep Sat
25 Sep Sun
02 Oct Sun
13 Oct Thur
07 Nov Mon
10 Nov Thur
17 Nov Thur
24 Nov Thur
23 Jan Mon
28 Jan Sat
04 Feb Sat
Rise
04 Sep Sun
12 Sep Mon
19 Sep Mon
22 Sep Thur
29 Sep Thur
20 Oct Tue
14 Nov Mon
23 Nov Wed
11 Jan Wed
16 Jan Mon
31 Jan Tue
Naoto
13 Nov Sun
12 Jan Thur
19 Jan Thur
26 Jan Thur
02 Feb Thur
05 Feb Sun```Yosuke's first bike visit is super easy to miss because Chie will ask you out on that day through the phone, so if you say yes to it you wouldn't have known
dusky thicket
yeah there's a lot of visits lol
I always skipped bike rides bc I sucked at the game and time management so I never had the time to do them
😎
but I'd imagine if you do well with time management you'd just be able to get all bike rides in
supple oak
[s]A cute hee-hand puppet, ho![n]Changes weapon attack[n]hee-lement to Ice, ho![n][e]```its peak
supple oak
upgraded some artisan weapons i had missed
those which upgrade and still have no passive attached get a massive power boost instead, comparable to the next available no-effect weapon's power (most of them are yukiko only, so the boost is relatively welcomed anyway)
supple oak
[s]Free-heeze, criminal fiend![n]Changes weapon attack[n]hee-lement to Ice, ho![n][e]```(frost shot)
supple oak
i think i need to redo every description MSG for merging because the rise outfits mod keeps not only overwriting my mod but outright replacing the mod's files as well
like, literally deleting my work
good thing i had backups
dusky thicket
damn 😭 how did that happen
supple oak
i assume because the rise mod does merging, persona essentials just scoops up every bmd in paks
and mine gets deleted in the process
anyway
i changed +25% to Element to say Boost
so it's clearly the boost passive
dusky thicket
i assume because the rise mod does merging, persona essentials just scoops up ev...
prettyyyy sure it's not supposed to do that lol
supple oak
and also a tag for the artisan having a use for it
mismatched boost and element, persona 3 reference
(the element is what their ultimate persona resists)
(except kanji because it's explicitly upgraded from odin's plate)
i had to relocalize half of the weapon's descriptions to fit into the box
lol
rip featherman reference on some of these
supple oak
lmfao the tactics fix ai is hard griefing
ghastly wail is dark element so kanji will consistently start spamming it thinking it's mudo
wasting all of his sp in the process
28 sp is also... really absurd
more expensive than mamudoon and harder to setup, like, what?
ah mamudoon is 34 in p4
regardless it should probably only cost 13 sp
due to the cost of the fear inducing skill as well
the fact it can even be cast when no one is feared is fucking stupid
supple oak
regardless it should probably only cost 13 sp
6 sp cost even
@dusky thicket seriously considering save editing the Ghastly Wail into Evil Smile instead purely on the basis of GW ruining Kanji's entire viability on tactics
he becomes negative IQ
literally
might be a smarter call too since that way the synergy is with the mc who is always there
i'm also lowering the cost of ghastly wail frfr
it simply doesnt add up cost wise
supple oak
<@188710504313782272> seriously considering save editing the Ghastly Wail into E...
i'll have an entire month of "invalid" saves but i didn't go to the tv world at all in any of them, so
dusky thicket
evil smile feels a bit better anyways
supple oak
sure enough
the mc himself using ghastly wail is technically dps loss, but fear by itself has use, so
and the other ailments are taken 
chie has fear proc, but lets pretend that didnt happen
supple oak
well yes thats why he had atom smasher and thats why i gave him ghastly wail
ghastly wail on kanji kinda reminds me of EX Surrenders in Judgment
where you scare an enemy and they just surrender without you having to hit them
but evil smile feels like it brings more utility
supple oak
supple oak
Megido: 15SP -> 28SP
Megidola: 24SP -> 45SP
Megidolaon: 38SP -> 70SP
Black Viper: 48SP -> 90SP
Morning Star: 55SP -> 100SP
Still cheaper than FES
except viper/morning
90 for black viper is actually kinda bullshit
75 or 80 prolly
i'd reset but i have victory cry so like
doesnt matter
dusky thicket
that strong huh
supple oak
that strong huh
cost*1.875
technically overcharging because boost+amp still beats almighty albeit only by a little
so the tradeoff is affinity pierce + no need for boosts at the cost of, well, a fuckton of sp
dusky thicket
yea almighty should probably be weaker than boost + amp magic anyways given it generally pierces everything ("generally" bc this is P4 we're talking about)
supple oak
yeah
its weaker but not by that much
although to be fair even without the magician changes it has always been easy to get heavies and boosts early
like i said the shit i get in skillcards has been coinciding pretty closely to what izanagi magicians into
dusky thicket
magic chie meta
supple oak
(it's the hama)
like 99% of the shadows are weak to ice or light
everyone else is practically full sp
supple oak
bro is farmed to the maxx
i just got killed by the stupidest megidola known to man
gotta redo a miniboss
supple oak
I got an Aeon Rain card
Replacing Blade of Fury
Izanagi shifts into a new phys lineage
it will lead into Agneyastra
it fit really well
however
I'm a bit torn here
I removed God's Hand and all other Rank 8s from mutation (except megidolaon)
but Agneyastra does technically supercede it
however, it's not a base phys skill lineage so you do still need to pick up deathbound, aeon rain, or akasha arts
much less common than cleave
dusky thicket
is there no way to get gods hand/other rank 8s at all besides re-fusing?
I think the biggest issue was always that it just was so easy to get them early but if it takes effort and thought then whatever
supple oak
is there no way to get gods hand/other rank 8s at all besides re-fusing?
rank 8's other than megidolaon are explicitly locked out of the magician and mutation pool yeah
megidolaon can skill change into the other rank 8s, but it's not worth it for an izanagi-only as you'd lose the hoarded stats
magician only goes up to 7
base phys goes up to rank 5, and then a rank 6 skill card gets you back on your way up to rank 7
deathbound probably needs a buff and having it swapped with aeon rain in the mutation tree
since it's lower rank, but sword 7
aeon rain is sword 6, same rank
either that or a nerf to aeon rain
either/or
i've been thinking and while it's extremely tedious to do so, there is technically a way to counteract izanagi only by rewarding fusing
the downside is that it will buff the player quite a bit 
the current issue with izanagi hoard in the mod is that while the skills themselves and acquiring them is balanced, hoarding stats is still scaling faster if you go through the conscious effort of always ending battles with izanagi equipped
which is hard at first, but snowballs very quickly
therefore doubling or even tripling the amount of stats gained when leveling up might counteract this
but it would potentially scale izanagi even faster if you hoard emperor cards instead
would need testing and its extremely tedious to edit on a whim
ive grown to like the p4 shuffles quite a lot and i think hoarding a persona should be an alternative, but one that does not negate fusion entirely
in the early to midgame there's still reasons to fuse
to cover weaknesses with nulls due to damage scaling
but after mitsuo it just snowballs, there's little point
you could argue, "oh but you only have 8 skill slots", but the party members are also extremely useful
i'm surprised at yukiko's damage output, with proper equipment her magic stat is inflated as fuc
like, rivaling izanagi's
one thing that's slightly reassuring though is that stats have diminishing returns from 50 onwards
so fusing will eventually make a comeback
but like
yea.
victory cry is pulling an insane amount of weight, though
if i was relying only on izanagi without any sp recovery i'd have fucked myself over on floor 1 of the lab
since nulling phys is super common now
supple oak
either/or
done, deathbound was also vanilla power by accident, not sure how
may have to sanity check all the phys powers again
supple oak
slightly nerfed agneyastra to incentivize targeting vorpal blade (unmutable) in lategame
need to slightly cut down akasha as a result too
vorpal is now reload values (at 40% cost however)
corrected primal force having wrong power
corrected herculean strike not having muddye's reccommended buff
dusky thicket
what buff?
supple oak
slightly more power, it was way too low for such a unique skill
dusky thicket
ah
dusky thicket
rank 8's other than megidolaon are explicitly locked out of the magician and mut...
interesting, honestly I kinda like leaving the option for players to get strong skills but thru a lot of work
again my thing was, it's too easy to get them lol, but I like the path existing
supple oak
i swapped aeon rain and deathbound in the paths
and apparently, i have room for 2 more mutations
i didnt notice
Rebellion -> Revolution
Foul Breath -> Stagnant Air
Fast Heal -> Insta-Heal
are the ones that come to mind
Cool Breeze -> Victory Cry is also technically a thing.. but let's not
i'll leave it open for now
supple oak
Cool Breeze -> Victory Cry is also technically a thing.. but let's not <:KEKW:81...
if i'm being honest it would incentivize using a different persona since it's a level 44 skill at the earliest meaning it takes more work than kaiwan
dusky thicket
rebellion and fast heal would be the ones I'd choose personally if you can only choose two
supple oak
instaheal is rank 7 so it can technically be another vector for mutate abuse
but thats not really an issue
worldly jasper
therefore doubling or even tripling the amount of stats gained when leveling up ...
buffing level up stats would only serve to make izanagi stronger ngl
a better idea for if you wanted to disincentivise izanagi only would be to increase the base stats of all demons in the compendium
supple oak
that works
worldly jasper
with it being exponential the higher the level gets
would also make grinding 99 all less of a chore
supple oak
there's a weird cross where from level 40 onwards the stats aren't really that punishing even though izanagi keeps scaling like mad
i didnt like this naoto boss
i demolished it
wasnt even because of izanagi either
i was trolling with yosuke
spamming makajam
worldly jasper
do you like how she is randomly resistant to fire for no reason?
supple oak
i noticed that
worldly jasper
it's just randomly like
fire resist and elec weakness
even though those don't reflect her actual affinities at all
supple oak
the elec weakness is fucking insane
well the elec is probably because machine + kanji
worldly jasper
i also like how shadow chie uses fucking jio skills and has a wind weakness despite her using ice and having a fire weakness when she actually joins the party
worldly jasper
well the elec is probably because machine + kanji
yea i assume it's to compliment the design
still funny tho
supple oak
yea i assume it's to compliment the design
i buffed her HP by 1.25x and it was still too much
rushing rise is so funny
she aoe charged the party
izanagi did like 1200 and kanji did 700 with torrent shot
yosuke was fucking around with makajam
and then he did a garula for 500
teddie died twice and in the end i completely stopped healing because i knew she was going to element zero
so i rakundad to get even more damage off of rise's charge
fight was only 10 minutes thats actually nuts
and i was goofing
wouldve been even faster if magician didnt keep trolling me
it missed the 50% every single time
i have agneyastra now
i bought 2 elec boost cards and i was aiming for elec amp
the thing is that beyond nerfing shit theres really nothing i can do
naoto was demolishing teddie and yosuke too
might be the hands too
level scaling went crazy
whereas i used to be 10 levels under the boss or some shit i was basically on-level this time
eternal zodiac
lmfao the tactics fix ai is hard griefing
Vanilla behavior 👍
supple oak
a better idea for if you wanted to disincentivise izanagi only would be to incre...
thing is, izanagi by himself sends 99% of the game packing
in the early game I fused Senri to null Yukiko's fire, Titan to do more damage to Kanji, and Jack Frost to null Teddie, but from Mitsuo onwards Izanagi has shit covered and it's not even related to his skills, it's just the pure snowballing of incense
i guess it's a valid playstyle, but it poses the same problem as something like Sakanagi and Murakumo in SMTV, if I raise the stats of other Personas, they will be better, but Izanagi will be enough provided that you engage with regular encounters and Requests (I don't go out of my way, I'm just very efficient with Sweep Bonus)
Izanagi does feel a lot like Nahobino in a way
i'm packing shit into him and i could technically be stronger but I don't need to be
and doing the reload strat of giving every enemy a billion boosts wont work either
because while izanagi is strong as fuck, enemies do still do insane damage to you too
half the weight is being pulled by the party members
someone who skips those regular fights will underlevel and understat and could instead compensate with fusion, but why would you willingly skip battles and quests??
this really is proto-smtv
the only difference is smtv still requires fusion because there's no party members handholding you and covering your build's gaps
and even then... lol
worldly jasper
thing is, izanagi by himself sends 99% of the game packing
in the early game I ...
Yeah but I don't really feel like you can actively nerf Izanagi without overhauling shuffle time entirely, so incentivising actually engaging with fusion in any way you could would still be more healthy for the game, even if it becomes easier
supple oak
Yeah but I don't really feel like you can actively nerf Izanagi without overhaul...
needs to be a complete overhaul too because imo just making swords, magicians and incenses rarer doesn't fix the problem, it just creates even more grind
just gotta accept p4g is a game where holding onto one persona is viable too
so instead of nerfing that ig buffing fusion makes more sense
would probably be worth checking what level and stats my izanagi has at each major milestone and then extrapolating a base stat multiplier for other personas out of that
supple oak
needs to be a complete overhaul too because imo just making swords, magicians an...
only really "fixes" it if you get unlucky, a boss filters you, and you go "fuck it I'm just gonna fuse instead of going back"
supple oak
i just beat naoto with rush lmfao
dusky thicket
💀
supple oak
high crit bat is so peak
buffing its acc to 50% was a good call
this strat is actually disgustingly fun lmfao
supple oak
naoto is the biggest argument for fixed ai ever
just got a run where she completely griefed herself and refused to use any of her special moves or aoes
3 minute boss
worldly jasper
did you know she can use dekaja even when you have no buffs
supple oak
havent seen that
but dekunda and heat riser spam, yes
anyway this run is good
i was hoping i'd get to be hit by an aoe attack but the result would've been the same
no heal win and only one karn used
sukukaja gaming went hard here
esp for the bat
i downed her every turn lmao
free 1.25x
dusky thicket
naoto is the biggest argument for fixed ai ever
shouldn't be surprising that you generally need to go after the AI too in a balance mod haha
supple oak
shouldn't be surprising that you generally need to go after the AI too in a bala...
not what i meant
dusky thicket
I already know you aren't going to fix AI
supple oak
ye but i didnt even mean it as something that needed fixing
its a grander design issue
non deterministic ai is basically reroll bait
supple oak
Yeah but I don't really feel like you can actively nerf Izanagi without overhaul...
so uh.
i think not even 1.5x is enough and 1.8x will pmuch make all personas in the endgame full 99
I'm trying to understand what the stat gains in persona.tbl are
if it's like, the weight of it being that stat that increases, or the cap
could cap izanagi's stats a bunch but then that just incentivizes doing the exact same thing but on Obariyon
hexed kettle
supple oak
izangi stat tracked
so far
lv57 already beats lucifer lol
what's hilarious is that if izanagi wasn't like this I'm psure the game would just become a grindfest
it's not even the damage pulling weight it's the endurance
supple oak
I'm tempted to make Adachi null Elec
I'm not there yet but it would troll the izanagi build a bit
cunning pelican
You could justify it lore-wise I guess with them kind of being opposites
supple oak
You could justify it lore-wise I guess with them kind of being opposites
Not even, isn't the playable Magatsu-Izanagi Elec/Dark
dusky thicket
Adachi makes worst persona build ever, asked to leave the persona series
supple oak
Adachi makes worst persona build ever, asked to leave the persona series
it literally can't inherit phys
for some reason Dark can't inherit phys and Light can't inherit ailments
it's peak
dusky thicket
adachi lost in the end because he could not inherit phys
😔
ignore any phys he does actually use in his boss fight it's not real
supple oak
ignore any phys he does actually use in his boss fight it's not real
magatsu izanagi itself has atom smasher and vorpal blade
it just can't inherit more
supple oak
I think that from Heaven onwards, I'm going to start making the game ramp up the scaling and difficulty more aggressively
The lab was relatively easy, but I would argue for a slight grace period for two reasons
1: I'm aggressively hoarding Izanagi, which I dont think is normal player behavior
2: I'm aggressively aiming for party social links, especially Rise, which accelerates the speed at which your power scales tremendously
Heaven is technically the "final" dungeon of the game, as it's the last one with (rewarding*) gold hand spawns, and technically the game can end there
Magatsu Inaba, Hollow Forest and Yomotsu Hirasaka are therefore the EX dungons of the game, where the story pivots hard into the player pursuing the truth for real and not rescuing
dusky thicket
I think that from Heaven onwards, I'm going to start making the game ramp up the...
how do you plan on doing this?
dusky thicket
https://youtu.be/ecktcqRgyno
supple oak
I'm still debating that a bit internally, I had to boost Shadow Naoto's level considerably for example
I'm thinking level and HP multipliers for regular encounters for one as battles are pretty much being won before you even reach AoA
Nulls is a tricky situation because it will invalidate certain party members and P4 does not have enough bosses like P3 to justify that
Damage boosts are also out of the question as party members are pretty much always getting oneshot and battles are being won by cleverly controlling who enemies hit for endure + sukukajas
i made the rematch boss in void quest null phys, which is a fine enough change
and i might do more phys nulls in non-major battles
Phys and Elec is the only element that is "safe" to null in P4 which I imagine is why it's so common
but even then I could equip Anglaise, turn it into the Carbon Pole, get Ice Boost, put Ice Amp and Bufudyne on Izanagi and carry on playing
supple oak
I'm still debating that a bit internally, I had to boost Shadow Naoto's level co...
but also my build is pretty much the best possible scenario, it shouldn't be the baseline for difficulty
there's a balance of "the player is on very hard they should know their shit" and "let's force the player to be the most optimal ever and screw doing Social Links for fun"
thats why i didnt hard scale up the lab even if shadow naoto was a 4 minute kill
if the completely jacked up build had to stop to grind that would be a terrible sign
p4 just lacks any valid reason to have multiple personas
other than autos and maybe a charge persona
or some nulls in an emergency
bosses are always just one dude so there isnt reasons to have multiple elements
and even if there was party members cover it
because they're all good
@dusky thicket one thing i'm probably 100% on is that adachi will null electricity
I kinda wanted to do a funny where Izanami's final phase will have P5X-like scaling, but that's just visual not actually a balance change (other than elec which will do piss-poor damage if you elec break)
p4 is really hard to balance here because it's super easy to balance things for the protagonist, but the party members are basically just going to get oneshot all the time if you so much as slightly increase their damage
This really really really feels like smtv again
main character steamrolls with the same kit and an occasional upgrade
party complements them perfectly and there's never a need to change
dusky thicket
changing the levels of bosses intuitively feels slightly weird to me since it's always been this consistent 10 level difference between major bosses for a lot of the game, but I suppose it doesn't really matter much in practice
good idea to not have your build be the baseline for difficulty though
supple oak
changing the levels of bosses intuitively feels slightly weird to me since it's ...
this isnt correct
i buffed naoto's level specifically to keep the gap consistent
dusky thicket
is it not 55
supple oak
it's 51 and i buffed it to 58
dusky thicket
oh 💀
supple oak
wait no my bad it's 55 and i buffed it to 58?
let me double chec
anyway 7 level gap is the average
for all bosses
naoto had a 3 level gap
no bueno
dusky thicket
what's mitsuo's level
is it actually 48
or sorry, not that
I thought Mitsuo was 45 in any case. is he not?
supple oak
45
dusky thicket
so where's the 7 level gap coming from here?
supple oak
taking the level difference between the protagonist and every boss in the game, 7 is the middle point
dusky thicket
all of them iirc are like 10 levels apart in stock I think?
supple oak
the problem with lab and i assume heaven is that hands go exponential
dusky thicket
right
dusky thicket
makes sense
supple oak
so the level difference is no longer stable
dusky thicket
no it's reasonable as an explanation it just felt a little weird hearing that at first
supple oak
it restabilizes in magatsu inaba
well
restabilizes for the party members you neglected
if you did
since no hands
or really shit hands rather
dusky thicket
<@188710504313782272> one thing i'm probably 100% on is that adachi will null el...
would be funny, not sure how necessary it actually is but it would be funny
supple oak
not necessary at all i just think it looks really cool if after being hit with the orb of truth they just start taking insane amounts of damage
it will make elec break karn strats useless, but
supple oak
i'd essentially do it by making them 1000% vulnerable to all elements
yes
and then 1000% their HP
the damage cap is 32k though so i need to check that
dusky thicket
is it not possible to also make them vulnerable to elec too and then give them repel?
supple oak
it might be possible but it's not an enumerated resistance flag
dusky thicket
or absorb idr what Izanami has normally
supple oak
its drain
dusky thicket
ah
yeah I'm just kinda thinking bc like. there's this one boss in hollow forest that is weak to phys but also takes like 1 damage on weakness hit
supple oak
thats a thing
its just when you do null/drain/repel that its weird
resist neutral and weak is fine
dusky thicket
dang
supple oak
anyway its just a 10x mult on all damage
unless you do more than 3200 damage it would never hit cap
true p5x isnt possible
dusky thicket
would be a shame if you couldn't figure it out for elec bc imo if you're gonna bring a break skill to a fight and use it, it should make the damage reasonable lol
yeah I mean that's still fine as is even with lower numbers
it's a cool idea
supple oak
i mean it'll do "10%" damage
and if your whole party is reflecting
thats still not bad
supple oak
where im really torn is how to incentivize getting off of izanagi
it'll be incentivized soon
because of the exclusive skills from max sl personas
but thats abt it
he's practically level 99 at this point stats wise
dusky thicket
Namatame boss is pretty cool fundamentally bc it's supposed to encourage you switching elements to maximize damage. but that's about all I can think of and that's like an AI change...
supple oak
and ngl im probably going to Elec/Ice my izanagi
dusky thicket
but requires boss AI changes I would think
dusky thicket
no way to get gods hand on Izanagi anymore without back fusing right?
supple oak
none. but by the time it's available, you can get better. so it wasn't even that big of a nerf lol
dusky thicket
so I guess at least that's a limiting factor to some extent although you've had boost amp jiodhain for a while now
supple oak
even if the magician card didnt exist hoarding one persona would be meta
thats the thing
there's zero incentive to ever switch
dusky thicket
yeah ik, stats and all
supple oak
yeah ik, stats and all
and the stats thing isnt a real reason
its just grindiness, lol
dusky thicket
feels wrong to have an Izanagi without God's hand lmao
supple oak
it would literally be "oh i need more levels, gonna fuse and keep the exact same skillset"
supple oak
feels wrong to have an Izanagi without God's hand lmao
i have an idea actually 
dusky thicket
not like you can really get around this issue without more substantial changes anyways
supple oak
Izanagi's default phys is cleave and it ends on blade of fury, I could use the two remaining slots to make the pierce and strike defaults go a tier higher but stay single target
dusky thicket
may as well just try and balance it out
supple oak
that way cleave ends at aoe but weaker
and the other two end at single target but stronger
supple oak
may as well just try and balance it out
the only real solution is to apply a multiplier to the base stats of every other persona in the game
here's the issue
1: the multiplier needs to be quite high
2: "quite high" means personas at level 60+ are gonna start at max 99 stats (lol?)
dusky thicket
💀
supple oak
3: there's so little incentive to do this
fusing is a reshuffling of your skills
p4 is literally "use your best skill and party members buff/heal"
there's no nuance
so even if you fuse into a full 99 stats persona
whats the point
its the same skill
other personas exist literally for covering weaknesses
which is irrelevant anyway because you being hit with a garu is pmuch never going to happen in a main boss
so who gives a shit
i used a null fire persona and a null ice persona in the early bosses
and thats it pmuch
i hate to say it but i think atlus was right
any nerf you make to the system is just going to create grind
because personas themselves have no incentive to be fused
there's no real "builds" to make
the enemy design is partially to blame here
theres just no bosses with multiple units with varying affinity
and even if there was you'd phys them down whenever it wasnt elec
because a neutral ziodyne from a level 99 persona is still more than a weak whatever from a level 50 one
@dusky thicket fuck
what if
i add more units to minibosses in these next dungeons
dusky thicket
you've always had that as an option lol
I have no opposition, I think that would be cool
supple oak
not really
i mean yes but no
the bosses are very carefully designed lol
if i add another unit it might make things wacky
dusky thicket
give it a shot and see what happens then
supple oak
ye, i wont for the previous dungeons though because all things considered it wasnt too bad
and the naoto miniboss is really deliberate
dusky thicket
a lot of the later mini bosses in P4G are just, hit them until they die anyways
the early mini bosses are fine I agree
supple oak
the naoto one is "hit it carefully/defensively until it does the critical hp animation then you have 3 turns to get as much damage as possible"
it's a good gimmick
more units messes it up i think
supple oak
the transformer from BF4
dusky thicket
Mitsuo miniboss already has multiple units too right
so I guess you don't really need to worry until heaven anyways
dusky thicket
lol
that's a fine enough gimmick tho I think
supple oak
ye but i need reasons for the protagonist to persona change
dusky thicket
good question...
party members kinda just cover everything so maybe it should be about making it so the protag has to switch to still be doing something relevant in a fight
supple oak
which realistically is impossible because you can just stuff elements
supple oak
there's no real dps checks in p4
at all
so making builds is pointless too
survivability wins
yukari meta 🔥
dusky thicket
op
an enemy taking a while to die is pretty annoying so that is incentive enough to increase DPS for me
maybe that's why p4g has many health sponges lol
supple oak
does it really
I've been having to increase hp
the only reason to increase damage is like
sp management
and that's not really an issue
dusky thicket
everyone complains about P4G having HP sponges lol, bosses just take a while to kill sometimes
supple oak
urrrrgh could it be that I'm not being fair
I'm doing every quest, that means I climb two whole dungeons every visit sometimes even three
maybe I am insanely grinded
dusky thicket
you are playing pretty optimally I would say
dusky thicket
not everyone really cares for the content that quests provide
supple oak
should skipping battles really be rewarded
dusky thicket
well I'd turn that thinking on its head, should you be punished for not grinding extra? because quests are truly optional side content that really just reward you with extra items and equipment
my idea of skipping battles is like. you go into a dungeon for the first time and skip half the encounters
if you are revisiting dungeons and taking those battles, those are extra battles you're fighting to do those quests
supple oak
i have a hard time agreeing with that on principle
dusky thicket
my reasonable expectation for the grind in a persona game is that say, for example, I'll take all the encounters I can find as I'm exploring a dungeon and try to 100% the map for each floor.
even then, that's not necessary, a more skilled player could skip encounters in P3F for example and still succeed. going back just to grind enemies for a chance to get their drops feels like extra grind
supple oak
i get that its optional, but the people who obsessively max all social links for all the "content" are probably doing liz quests and p4 quests too
not doing quests is kinda purposefully underleveling yourself, idk
dusky thicket
social links are a bit different than quests though I'd say... my incentive for doing all social links is to max my relationships with everyone to "complete" the story side of things
supple oak
it might be the smtv/sh2 brain here but quests feel intrinsic to the game
dusky thicket
s.links are mainly optional but they don't feel optional
supple oak
especially when beating the boss will also give a massive courage stat boost and a weapon... i feel like many people would do this
dusky thicket
yeah I can't really comment on either of those. I'm speaking from my persona brained experience lol
supple oak
i suppose that if i did not do them my izanagi's stats would be wayyyy lower
dusky thicket
the additional bosses are one thing
supple oak
but still very high
sleek cloud
If this is with Very Hard in mind then doing quests should feel insentivized
Like if you don't do them, then you're gonna have a harder time
supple oak
i think a full dungeon climb will on average net izanagi 10 to 15 of every stat
so technically my stats would be half rn
which is still more than the base stats of anything i can fuse btw
less magicians though as well
and im also-- very good at getting sweep bonus
lol
dusky thicket
sweep bonus is a peam mechanic
supple oak
if p4r doesnt have sweeping istg
dusky thicket
but yeah idk. I don't really feel you should have to go up dungeons more than twice
once for beating it the first time, once for the optional boss
any more than that feels like you're kinda just grinding extra
in that case, yeah ofc it's gonna be easier but should you require that is the question, and my answer is that I don't think it should be
supple oak
if you look at the videos i posted you'll see thats exactly what i did
the only exception is i climbed the striptease 3 and a half times, because i didnt know quests could ask for materials, and i sold them
dusky thicket
then I think the balance you're aiming for is fine then
supple oak
if you think it should be balanced around not doing quests, then i think increasing persona base stats might fix the problem since izanagis wont scale as fast
dusky thicket
there's probably a halfway point to balance around
dusky thicket
just make a script for it /j
supple oak
would if i could
dusky thicket
it's a tough problem to solve tho
i haven't watched a lot of the dungeon crawling videos so sorry lol. but when you're doing your second climb up, is that generally before the next dungeon opens up and are you taking most encounters or are you skipping them?
supple oak
i take everything because it feels kinda ridic not to
like im willingly refusing money
i have money problems the entire game
even with this
dusky thicket
honestly? maybe boosting persona stats is enough for an ok solution
it makes it more viable to fuse personas and switch and maybe that's the best that can be done here
but uh yeah good luck boosting stats manually 😭
tedious af
supple oak
x1.4 is the highest possible multiplier that will not make personas full 99
zaou gongen's magic will be 99
and im not counting InO
dusky thicket
InO is special anyways
supple oak
but uh yeah good luck boosting stats manually 😭
you can understand why i dont want to right
because if i want to revert
dusky thicket
tbh I would support a rework of InO bc he's lame in P4G
supple oak
dusky thicket
yeah lol I understand
dusky thicket
if you can't solve the problem of, oh you have no incentive to fuse
at least make it so fusing is more viable
that is my imo 
supple oak
let's outright assume my stats would be halved if i didnt do quests
that's about 40 in every stat on izanagi
at level 58(?)
best level 58 persona is uriel
dusky thicket
that's comparable to other base personas with that level right
I don't have this memorized
dusky thicket
lol
supple oak
hashino you've done it again
dusky thicket
rise has been typing for the last half hour what is she cooking up
supple oak
rise has been typing for the last half hour what is she cooking up
she's been typing for 4 days
the thread is bugged
dusky thicket
😭
supple oak
im not joking
she's been "typing" for literally 4 days on and off
keeps bugging me
cuz i have it on second monitor
dusky thicket
lmao
supple oak
i mean
1.4x
lets see
St 49
Ma 59
En 52
Ag 50
Lu 43
would this increase justify swapping off of an izanagi with
- better resists
- better skills
- better buffs
maybe if you're getting your ass kicked
dusky thicket
it would make it objectively more viable
is it enough is a different question entirely lol
dusky thicket
would you want to adjust party member stats too or no?
supple oak
that's 21 whole levels skipped
no, party members are also boosted af
my yukiko has 50 magic rn
and kanji hits 99 st in endgame dont forget
dusky thicket
true I forgor
supple oak
i really wish i could automate this omg
unironically a gpt might be able to
but then there's other problems arising there
Ok I think I'll need the second opinion here
@chrome cove do you think raising all persona base stats by 1.4x will raise problems?
The idea is that even though Izanagi will grow faster if you do every quest, if you don't, fusion will be an upgrade
dusky thicket
the other thing is that if you're boosting stats across the board there might be a need to raise HP although I'm not sure how much of an issue it actually is in practice
dusky thicket
side note: it seems possible to run 010 via CLI
maybe a batch editing script is possible
supple oak
possibly mult every value every x bytes
dusky thicket
you can look for specific data I think so that might be easier
chrome cove
<@640416484102897694> do you think raising all persona base stats by 1.4x will r...
Would need to be taken account for by the fights I guess
supple oak
Would need to be taken account for by the fights I guess
thats what im sayin though it would still be a little less than stacked izanagi and equal or slightly more than a mid-stack
chrome cove
What if we just hop on a persona that has better growth than Izanagi
supple oak
What if we just hop on a persona that has better growth than Izanagi
there arent any
growth is the same on all personas other than a really small bias towards specific stats
negligible
the only fix is base stats
literally
supple oak
Samarecarm on teddie might be fine?
You will get it before Yukiko but I also have no real desire to lose a slot for it
so it's more of a choice than a no-brainer
feels fine with me
dusky thicket
yeah that's a stock thing anyways so it's the same way in both cases but also you probably aren't dying a lot by this point lol
supple oak
yeah that's a stock thing anyways so it's the same way in both cases but also yo...
I rushed Kujikawa
bro aint dying
dusky thicket
supple oak
ive been rejecting 99% of skills for like 2 dungeons this is so funny
supple oak
started heaven
got to floor 4
magicianed elec boost into amp
remembered i was going to increase all shadow hp
back to F1
its definitely a little crazy how shadows seem to have the same HP values the entire game throughout
supple oak
i was thinking x2 but it might actually need to be x3
rise alone boosts aoas to triple the hp of these shadows
dusky thicket
ries
chrome cove
its definitely a little crazy how shadows seem to have the same HP values the en...
Yeah, they have 1 or 0 eventually (IKs)
supple oak
Yeah, they have 1 or 0 eventually (IKs)
i know, but like
there's level 80 enemies with 70 hp
rise's aoa does 700
- Enemy HP Increased
- Enemy Levels Rescaled
- Miniboss Formation Intensified
Magatsu Mandala:
- Enemy HP Increased
- Enemy Levels Rescaled
- Miniboss Formation Intensified
- Enemy Formations Intensified
- Enemy Weaknesses Capped at 1
- Enemy Resists Upgraded to Nulls
Hollow Forest:
- Enemy HP Increased
- Enemy Levels Rescaled
- Miniboss Formation Intensified
- Enemy Formations Intensified
- Enemy Passive Skills
- Enemy Resists Upgraded to Nulls
Yomotsu Hirasaka:
- Enemy HP Increased
- Enemy Levels Rescaled
- Miniboss Formation Intensified
- Enemy Formations Intensified
- Enemy Passive Skills++
- Enemy Weaknesses Capped at 1
- Enemy Resists Upgraded to Nulls
- Enemy Nulls Upgraded to Repels
- Enemy Repels Upgraded to Drains```@dusky thicket EX Dungeon modifiers that I could think of
Neutrals don't get upgraded because that's just a resistfest
Resist almighty would be null almighty though
probably
chrome cove
Maybe not
chrome cove
Ideally those rock enemies don't even got those wack resist spreads
supple oak
i think they're relatively fine for the time at which they appear
resist almighty feels wack but honestly when i saw it it gave battles a little bit of variety
but point taken, i'll ignore almighty when upgrading enemies
the other modifiers i'm kinda happy with
supple oak
i was NOT expecting a couple levels and 3x HP to make such a drastic difference
lmao
this is pretty peak
supple oak
this is gonna be one hell of a difficulty jumpscare for anyone not prepared LMAO
dusky thicket
lmao well hopefully it doesn't feel too much like a jump lol
was planning to do a replay of P4G at some point, maybe at that point I can give some feedback as a more average player but that will be a while
supple oak
well it doesnt help that the boss has less HP than bosses from previous dungeons????
chrome cove
I think they designed it with your members getting yoinked in mind so lol
supple oak
im talking about world balance