junpei is also outscaled by agilao gem
#Persona 4 Golden | Clean Balance Tweaks
worldly jasper
supple oak
literally no reason to use chie then
supple oak
crit isn't that meaningful in p4 and kanji will always outdamage
worldly jasper
and strong aoe
supple oak
why even use chie
supple oak
ok when
worldly jasper
chie also has aoe and can chain 1-more
dusky thicket
there are people who think Chie falls off bc her magic is bad, but honestly who is going to use a balance mod besides people who are (probably) decent at the game?
with that being said I actually don't really mind bufula S8 that much because I think by the time you get to bufula S8, protag and Yukiko probably also have medium magic and theirs will be better
supple oak
thats only relevant on filler encounters?
same as naoto then
her purpose is trash
no boss relevance
worldly jasper
not necessarily true and i think chie's in general a more convenient character to use
dusky thicket
is bufula the deciding factor here
supple oak
if you say so
dusky thicket
it's medium magic 😭
worldly jasper
bufula wouldn't make the difference either way, kanji already gets jionga and easy access to elec boost weapon
and yosuke exists if you want a hybrid
imo a much more phys-focused chie gives her more character identity
supple oak
his elec boost weapon is post-mitsuo
worldly jasper
no?
supple oak
yes
worldly jasper
its literally the reward for beating the miniboss in his dungeon
dusky thicket
it probably is now lol
worldly jasper
unless you pushed the effect back
supple oak
Thunder Plate 172 96 25% Elec damage ¥30,000 Electric Rock x6 Kanji Post-Void
Feather Shield 182 96 25% Elec damage, Elec Element Attack - - Exchange Thunder Plate with Artisan Apprentice in Yasogami High School Practice Building, 2F Kanji
bathhouse rematch is +3 magic
and i buffed that
was +2 magic
worldly jasper
🧐
still idk i rly don't think chie needs it
she also has auto-tarukaja which kinda slams
supple oak
wait she does
dusky thicket
yeah
supple oak
oh shit she does
worldly jasper
and revolution
dusky thicket
auto taru is from base game
worldly jasper
i think she's more than fine
dusky thicket
atlus moment
supple oak
the male +all stats gives more than the female
like just +1
but its still +1
hackshino at it again!!
maybe p6 really does need a femc because it would be harder
(all equippables would be shit)
dusky thicket
I mean I stand behind removing hama mudo from Chie Yukiko but if you want it to stay faithful to the original balance that's pretty reasonable
supple oak
wait WHY is he getting masukukaja
that's direct anti-synergy
with his partner character
worldly jasper
i think teddie's probably fine besides a couple things though. replace Gigan Fist and give him Poison Arrow and Blight as later upgrades to Poison Skewer, and probably replace Auto-Rakukaja with something else as it fits Kanji more
worldly jasper
wait WHY is he getting masukukaja
le buff guy 
dusky thicket
Naoto gets blight though
worldly jasper
he rly don't need it he has meghidora
worldly jasper
i mean i think its a lot less overcentralising than marakunda is
while keeping the same idea
supple oak
where did marakunda go
worldly jasper
i mean i suggest giving it to naotroll but rn nobody has it technically
dusky thicket
it died (Yosuke and Naoto are still there)
worldly jasper
could also have it be mc exclusive (kinda raw)
dusky thicket
nahhh
supple oak
elec boost on bike 1 is a bit dull
supple oak
wait why does he learn elec boost twice
dusky thicket
where's the second instance
dusky thicket
did you give yukiko valiant dance because she's red
it was one of her bike skills actually
supple oak
where's the second instance
S6 and B1
worldly jasper
regen 3 could be put between jiodhain and mahajiodhain btw, probs too good for sl anyways
especially cus it'd sequence break between regen 2 and 3 realistically
worldly jasper
did you give yukiko valiant dance because she's red
fatlus gave her it and mahatarunda for the same reason
dusky thicket
weren't you the one saying you didn't like similar skills being split between levels and SL
supple oak
matarunda makes sense
worldly jasper
maharakunda amagi would be more raw but i can see why they want to limit her bower
you could get away with that tbh
amagi being rakunda and teddie becoming tarunda
supple oak
her offensive potential is something you work towards first and foremost she is support
i like that about yukiko makes her dynamic
worldly jasper
kanji looking a lil shit rn ngl but his stats will probs carry him
idk its hard to work around p4's weird ass phys skills
supple oak
elec amp as the final unlock is really misleading icl
esp when you consider InO drains elec
dusky thicket
that's base game
supple oak
yeah
no one's gonna use elec break on that bitch
unless you karn strat
but she's 99% almighty
so you cant anyway
worldly jasper
its kind of a thing where its like
he probs shouldn't even get it but like what else will you give him
supple oak
i dont agree with removing anyone's boost/amps in any situation
dusky thicket
esp when you consider InO drains elec
took me a sec to realize you didn't mean Izanagi lol
worldly jasper
every character having both boosters is really formulaic though lol
especially cus some characters have alternatives and also don't need them for success
supple oak
that's p4 for you i feel like we're playing tug of war with the intent and direction of my own mod 
like i get it
i just dont know if i want to
dusky thicket
it's real hard lol
there's a certain point where you can play the "I want it to be more faithful" card and I don't think I could disagree with you there at all
worldly jasper
i don't rly think elec boost and elec amp are really integral to kanji's identity when the only real integral thing there is that he has jionga
dusky thicket
I would probably just have this more expanded skill set change as an optional thing either way bc I like a lot of the changes in here, but if you want it to be more faithful I totally get that personally
worldly jasper
like you'd never remove his elec skills outright but i also don't think he needs the boosts for em given he has 30 fucking magic
dusky thicket
as I said earlier kanji is the only party member with elec anyways
that's probably why he has what he has
worldly jasper
mc is elec-coded
supple oak
fair argument, i was literally just trying to make Atlus' own skill ranks be accurate and equips not randomly downgrading as if they were randomized from a pool
but i also made certain weapons be elemental and shit so it's not like i was 100% following through
dusky thicket
yeah haha I mean at the end of the day, it's all in the interest of making the combat more interesting
this is your mod at the end of the day but I feel that as long as it feels faithful and like something ATLUS could theoretically put out, I think I'd be cool with it
also remember that the skill rebalance should be an entirely optional thing anyways
there should be either a config option or an addon, it shouldn't be forced. if you want me to make a code mod for the config, I can, if you want to make it a separate addon go right ahead
dusky thicket
weren't you the one saying you didn't like similar skills being split between le...
(coming back to this for regen 3, bc that is not a bad spot to put it but also it's going from innate to SL based to level based)
dusky thicket
regen 2 is SL tho
regen 3 is currently also SL
like Regen 3 isn't absent it's completely unchanged from vanilla lol
worldly jasper
i think you could just add those to kit
gives him more skills to work with too.
give him tetrabreak over regen 2 in SL
dusky thicket
tetra break is kind of a meme lol
I was thinking about it. a part of me felt it was slightly out of character for kanji haha, like I feel like he'd rather just use AOE phys
if he had it
worldly jasper
tetra break is kind of a meme lol
but is is funny tho
dusky thicket
that it is
worldly jasper
I was thinking about it. a part of me felt it was slightly out of character for ...
but he doesn't have it!
which is why it makes sense.
worldly jasper
media in social link
dusky thicket
media is just kinda useless for when you get it
worldly jasper
aura
worldly jasper
media is just kinda useless for when you get it
mediarama, divine grace and recarmdra 🔥
dusky thicket
I'm honestly keeping mediarama bc it is a meme but meovv said they actually genuinely used it for the Izanami fight
which I think that's pretty funny
worldly jasper
i think it has aura
i don't think you'd genuinely ever use it but its fire design-wise
dusky thicket
I think I might move regens into the main kit then, probably elec boost for SL?
dusky thicket
yeah I acknowledge it's not the best design wise
I'm also just at a loss for what to actually genuinely put in his SL/bike skills
dusky thicket
also you said kanji might be mid besides his stats
do you think that could be remedied with level adjustments for skills at all or would it have to be new skills
worldly jasper
i don't think p4 rly has enough variety in its phys skills to give him a truly fascinating progression
especially without making radical changes to his archetype
like there's no damage upgrade you can give him between vile assault and primal lmao
despite the jump between those being hyuge
dusky thicket
hey meovv, any phys skills you could have for kanji in between vile assault and primal lol
worldly jasper
maybe if gigantic fist weren't ass he could have that but alas
dusky thicket
is auto rakukaja at S4 too early
worldly jasper
no its fine
dusky thicket
it seems slightly early but I mean, it would be at what, lvl 35 or so?
worldly jasper
yosuke gets auto-suku at like rank 6 or 8
and he has zero stat requirements and is earlier
dusky thicket
posting this here too to revive the thread. I ended up reverting a lot of Chie's changes and giving them both their light/dark back.
right now I think there are two things to note here
- Chie's social link skills have been entirely reverted so she has the issue of getting revolution too early. but I genuinely don't know where else it could go without getting rid of mataru (or making it a level skill)
- Yukiko needs 2 new bike skills
worldly jasper
Oh I mean I think her getting both boost and amp is kinda deranged lol
should be one or the other
dusky thicket
I'm pretty sure you were the one who suggested that one haha
she's mostly phys oriented anyways so maybe I cut amp, move bufudyne back to B5, fit revolution in there somewhere, give her a new s.link skill?
tbf though if you're going out of your way to get B5 for her, feel like it should be pretty strong. yukiko and kanji both get charge iirc
worldly jasper
I'm pretty sure *you* were the one who suggested that one haha
i suggested amp only cus you removed boost
i think both is kind of insane lol
i suggested making all of her ice stuff bike rides cus its wholesome
aura
dusky thicket
they are and that's actually why I was a little reluctant to lol. think it gets a little samey that way + they intentionally didn't do it in P4G so...
@supple oak what do you think?
supple oak
1sec
worldly jasper
i think hama/hamaon on bike rides are just kinda useless
supple oak
i wouldn't mind just keeping hama/mudo and nuking the upgrade because naoto is there by then
and i'd probably put it in SL in that case
dusky thicket
if it's in SL the upgrade would probably be relevant before Naoto joins
so I'll try to keep it
but sounds good
bro why am I stuck in view only on my own document
dusky thicket
Google hates P4G too 😔
crude vale
Will yosuke be better in this mod
worldly jasper
He's already op there's nothing to improve
harsh canyon
posting this here too to revive the thread. I ended up reverting a lot of Chie's...
maybe rage boost for the first since valiant dance is there and then maybe idk ali dance or angelic grace for theming? idk there isnt a whole ton to work with here
dusky thicket
I am a little iffy on ali dance/angelic grace; I think Yukiko is already plenty strong as is
Yukiko having a secondary ailments role through bike rides would be funny actually, I don't think it'd be super useful but why not right
maybe 2 AOE ailments and then something to boost ailments
mind charge at the end is an appropriate reward anyhow
harsh canyon
old one and valiant dance 
enervation funny
"It got back up. Hurry and-"
enemy trips, giving me a free aoa
dusky thicket
any thoughts on this before I move onto Naoto?
@worldly jasper curious about your feedback on yosuke in particular. worked with meovv a bit on him but he's tough
worldly jasper
i think dekaja's a lil too late here just because you want it for kanji's boss and level 20's not too feasible without over grind on very hard
can you send me the doc with the skill powers so i have a frame of reference? power slash feels pretty late but like i have no comparison to make
worldly jasper
Marakunda seems random af on yosuke lmao
i don't really see what that has to do with the rest of his kit
like its a very big buff but it also feels disconnected from his archetype
kinda makes him S tier tho highkey
dusky thicket
yeah figured that'd be a big buff lol. teddie no longer has marakunda so i figured oh what if i move it to yosuke for synergy (mataru + maraku)
yosuke kinda already feels all over the place bc he's an all arounder anyways
worldly jasper
i think marakunda on yosuke makes him a lil too strong
and like doesn't fit him much cus he's not like a pure damage dealer
dusky thicket
axe?
worldly jasper
i think someone should probs have it but idk about him specifically lol
he does need something but idk if that's it
dusky thicket
let's return to that one later
worldly jasper
me personally i'm prone to him getting aoe phys but like that's a lot to slot in kinda
worldly jasper
mighty swing feels kinda weird on him
dusky thicket
I was thinking ailment AOE phys
worldly jasper
barely stronger than power slash but also really high crit which isn't yosuke's archetype
worldly jasper
i think gigantic fist would fit better
worldly jasper
well teddie's not rly a phys guy either way
think you could just swap teddie's anyways cus he literally never uses it
especially now that magic's buffed even and gigantic fist was nerfed
(which is questionable but i won't nitpick)
dusky thicket
perhaps gigantic fist at uhhhhh lvl 56
at a glance it's slightly better than tempest slash (lvl 55, naoto)
but yosuke seems more phys tuned than naoto
dusky thicket
could also just give it back to teddie lol
worldly jasper
its weird cus yosuke already feels like he has enough support
i mean sure
im not opposed to that either since yukiko's more competitive now too
dusky thicket
it used to be S6 on teddie. I'm making it B1
you dont get it just by playing the game but it's easy to get without a big time commitment (just 1 day)
dusky thicket
needed something 😭
worldly jasper
i'd just put dekaja back in the SL tbh
dusky thicket
I want one more single target in between power slash and gigantic fist
lvl 34 power slash to lvl 56 gigantic fist is funny
something in the 40s would be great
worldly jasper
oh lol there's a massive gap between aoe phys base powers
deathbound's like 175 then vorpal blade jumps all the way up to like 500~
worldly jasper
i def think gigan needs rebuffed cus rainy death is gotten at around the same level as yosuke would get that
and rainy death is like 475 base with higher crit lmao
dusky thicket
would lvl 51 gigantic fist be too much?
really i think the main thing i can do is lvl shifting
worldly jasper
would lvl 51 gigantic fist be too much?
i mean its a lot worse than garudyne
so not really
even if it had its base game stats it'd be worse than garudyne
worldly jasper
i think it just needs the base power buff lol
dusky thicket
fair lol
worldly jasper
cus like what
dusky thicket
not much i can do there
worldly jasper
its still the highest base phys skill he can reasonably get before brave blade
worldly jasper
give him blight randomly (ailment phys!!)
dusky thicket
gale slash lvl 26
worldly jasper
ghoul slash 😈
i mean i think you'd need to like adjust aoe phys base powers if you were to give him a skill progression for it
just cus like
blight is the only thing he can really get for "heavy" phys
and that's ailment
like ghoul slash is light, heat wave and deathbound are medium and then blight is the only one that's heavy
vorpal blade is severe ig
using the terms relatively
dusky thicket
mind slice 36-37?
it has panic 25%!!
could also just do heat wave instead at a higher lvl
worldly jasper
i mean mind slice has really low base lol
its like barely stronger than ghoul slash
dusky thicket
i did cut heat wave from cheese
worldly jasper
i think like
you could do like ghoul slash -> heat wave -> deathbound -> blight(?)
dusky thicket
i guess no ailment AOE lol
worldly jasper
maybe vorpal blade if you wanna give him that
the ailment phys just has really low base
dusky thicket
naoto gets both deathbound and vorpal
dusky thicket
true
worldly jasper
but like
naoto also has megido which has equivalent base to the aoe phys options
and she has mind charge
like i'd argue the character they fit more is yosuke
although its hard to make a like convincing skill tree with it just cus the base powers are a bit weird
dusky thicket
yeah
worldly jasper
the gap between ghoul slash and heat wave and then heat wave with deathbound is relatively small
dusky thicket
would mind slice at like lvl 31 be ok? alternatively there's a gap between 23-29 too
worldly jasper
but the gap between deathbound and like blight/vorpal blade is hyuge
worldly jasper
would mind slice at like lvl 31 be ok? alternatively there's a gap between 23-29...
too weak at that point lol
i think if you want ailment phys aoe i'd just not include gale slash
and include those instead there
dusky thicket
im thinking of cutting gale slash yeah
mind slice at lvl 27?
probably a little weak but
yeah maybe I'll do that
mind slice -> virus wave -> blight ig
do you think yukiko getting ailment boost b1 and foolish whisper b4 is a bit too random
now... what do i do with naoto
(here's everyone else)
roughly I'm thinking:
- give her some debuffs to work with (debilitate but maybe also masukunda since kanji lost it for auto-raku, either matarunda or marakunda - i'm thinking matarunda if she gets another one)
- move dynes from bike to SL
- perhaps elemental amps in bike?
- remove invigorate, it's pointless you have rise at that pt
- something really good for B5 bc she only gets to use it for hollow forest and yomotsu hirasaka
worldly jasper
(here's everyone else)
why does yukiko get ailment boost with one ailment skill?
wouldn't it make more sense for yosuke to get that given he has 3 now?
dusky thicket
was thinking of moving it over yeah. at the time Yosuke was unchanged so with Yukiko it was like oh she has ailment weapons lol
I'm not sure what to replace it with for Yukiko
makara break perhaps? switch that from Yosuke to Yukiko?
not that tetra or makara break are crazy skills but
worldly jasper
you've got options either way
i'm a bit out of it tonight so i don't have many ideas lol
dusky thicket
no worries, I think I will do that and then present a first Naoto draft
Yukiko getting a makara break seems ok bc she's the magic nuke so it makes sense
plus it isn't really a super strong skill so nothing too crazy
dusky thicket
first draft. i want to change stuff in orange
- I am fine with getting rid of heat riser on naoto personally but her getting it innate would be fine with me (or maybe leave it be for simplicity)
- angelic grace is nice enough but it doesn't really seem good enough for B5. idk what to do there
- amps are ordered to try to keep Naoto from getting boost + amp too early, but I'm not picky about order
- this still potentially allows her to get boost+amp dyne earlier than anyone else so I'm not sure if maybe it's overtuned. but Naoto has only 1 bike ride before January so maybe this is fine
- didn't actually change anything in her skill set. hoping that the SL/bike changes will be enough to make her relevant in boss fights while giving her tools for normal battles
worldly jasper
(here's everyone else)
looking at this again, i think locking revolution to bike 2 is kinda crazy ngl
since rebellion is pretty much a useless skill
i think giving naoto access to all amps is a bit redundant, although there isn't a magic skill up equivalent in this game that'd work better. the fact you'd need to waste 4 days to make her specifically good at wind just feels very weird to me, I think it'd be better to just go for a different concept at this point.
dusky thicket
honestly what I am hearing is that maybe Chie's social link skills should be entirely unchanged
worldly jasper
I know Invigorate skills are pretty notoriously shit, but I also don't know if I'd remove them entirely from Naoto since conceptually its an alright gimmick. They aren't impactful enough to justify themselves much though, and I'd maybe just replace heat riser with invigorate 3 if you're to keep them since Chie already has that
dusky thicket
that would be easier
dusky thicket
revolution S8, ice boost B1?
worldly jasper
that works
although maybe rev should be S6
just cus bufula is kinda sequence breaking a lil if obtained too early
dusky thicket
I meant S6 I am just sleepy lol
dusky thicket
I know Invigorate skills are pretty notoriously shit, but I also don't know if I...
that seems fine to me. perhaps heat riser B5 
invigorate 3 as S8 seems very reasonable. SP isn't an issue anyways since Rise exists lol
worldly jasper
i think its a bit of a redundancy to have two heat riser characters
dusky thicket
I wanted to change heat riser that's why it's orange
dusky thicket
i think giving naoto access to all amps is a bit redundant, although there isn't...
if there was a magic skill up it would be much nicer to be honest. I wasn't a big fan of getting rid of the other skills but like what else can I do there?
worldly jasper
angelic grace also feels kinda unfitting for naoto specifically but its hard to think of what a good replacement would be
dusky thicket
that's stock lol
dusky thicket
I agree with you fwiw
I thought of spell master too but then it was like, wait, Teddie already has it
if life drain were more useful then I'd be happy to give it back to teddie
reverted Teddie's bike skills back for now (but B1 is still Marakunda)
I think the bike skills look kinda useless afterwards to be completely honest, so I want to give him a good B5, but idk what to give him lol
worldly jasper
evade phys is pretty shit
wall skills being over half way into the bike kits feels a bit weird cus tbh they feel like stuff that'd be fine as base kit, but like its not my mod and I think wall skills require reworks to enemy design to really excel
dusky thicket
agree. easier to leave them be imo
Kanji and Yukiko have must have B5s. Naoto and Chie have B5s that are kinda nice but not something I consider essential. Yosuke's B5 is ok. Teddie's B5 is not worth it. how to fix that though, is the problem...
dusky thicket
I also think I'm going to leave Naoto's amps unchanged for right now. I think it kinda works nicely with the fact that you need the correct weapon to get boost+amp, and again I wish it was magic ability or something but it doesn't exist sooooo
would be happy to take suggestions but I haven't gotten any so
true gorge
Oh hey, I was not aware you guys were working on this! I was working on something very similar just 3 days ago haha. This looks nice so far, I can't wait to see how it turns out in the end.
Hey, why don't you guys give Teddie masukunda instead of masukukaja so that he compliments Yosuke's kit a bit more? I've always thought masukunda was kind of nice, but given that Kanji has a pretty low SP pool, it feels kind of not worth using most of the time.
true gorge
first draft. i want to change stuff in orange
- I am fine with getting rid of he...
To weigh in my 2 cents. Leave her vanilla, but replace angelic grace with debilitate. Invigorate helps a ton as it is.
And maybe move angelic grace where myriad arrows was.
dusky thicket
Hey, why don't you guys give Teddie masukunda instead of masukukaja so that he c...
thought about it. that does give Teddie 5 buff/debuff skills though which feels a bit extreme
as it is, Teddie gets all 3 buffs and he gets marakunda through bike ride
of course, I could remove masukukaja and replace it with masukunda or something for example
but honestly 4 buffs/debuffs is already a lot
true gorge
I was thinking to replace masukukaja for masukunda
As it stands, no one gets masukunda (unless I'm blind),
Yosuke already gets masukukaja so that kinda takes away from his role, i think.
dusky thicket
To weigh in my 2 cents. Leave her vanilla, but replace angelic grace with debili...
invigorate is basically worthless by the time you get Naoto between the fox, Rise, and items existing
having 3 s.link skills dedicated to invigorate is such a waste
I left one in but tbh I just got rid of the rest
true gorge
Yeah, I like that.
dusky thicket
debilitate being B5 might not be bad. S10 debilitate may be slightly too early but I'm not sure it's a big issue because you'll probably only have it for magatsu-inaba anyways (where you likely would already be able to get trumpeter)
true gorge
It was kind of like kanji. But instead of getting it through leveling up, she gets them through the social link.
dusky thicket
if debilitate is B5, Naoto only has it for hollow forest and yomotsu and that's a 5 day time commitment. but debilitate is a strong skill
true gorge
debilitate being B5 might not be bad. S10 debilitate may be slightly too early b...
I think anything that gives the MC an extra turn is worth it.
You can power charge/revive the party instead of spending a turn on debilitate.
dusky thicket
the more I think about it, the more I think maybe it should be B5, it's about as useful as kanji power charge or Yukiko mind charge
true gorge
To solve the marakunda issue, why don't you give rakunda to naoto
dusky thicket
Naoto could receive some debuffs too potentially
true gorge
and leave teddie with just matarukaja
I thought he wasted a lot of sp setting up in vanilla.
dusky thicket
that had been suggested yesterday
true gorge
And have rakunda as one her slink skills
that way she can help out in bosses before she gets debilitate as her "upgraded" form of debuffs
dusky thicket
rakunda, not marakunda?
true gorge
same thing,
marakunda in this case, for the sake of clarity
I'm thinking. Leave Garudyne/Bufudyne/Invigorate 3 for her slink skills
And add marakunda to her bike rides
That would just leave 1 extra skill
Or whatever you prefer, either way, I think it is an overall improvement.
dusky thicket
still trying to think of what to do with her bike rides. truthfully I'm not a fan of them right now but I really wish she had some sort of magic amp available
dusky thicket
if that existed it would be far easier
although that might unintentionally make her really strong if it works on megidolaon too lol
true gorge
wait actually
I know invigorate is kind of useless, but getting it so late into her slink makes her hard to use in dungeons where you get her
harsh canyon
mod it in 
true gorge
So I'm thinking:
Slink
1 Invigorate 1/2
2 Bufudyne
3 Ziodyne
4 Heat Riser
5 Mind Charge
Bike
1 Marakunda
2 Invigorate 3
3 Tetraja
4 Angelic Grace
5 Debilitate
worldly jasper
debilitate being B5 might not be bad. S10 debilitate may be slightly too early b...
I think B5 is kinda way too late especially since Naoto without debilitate really has nothing going for her
Like she's the worst character by a large margin
Even if Megido buff helps her a little
I'm more personally inclined to just overhauling Naoto's kit entirely or at least adding a lot to it, but I don't think you guys want something that drastic
dusky thicket
i don't really want to overhaul it but otherwise I am open to ideas with her. I don't really think she should be solely viable due to debilitate
I think her kit makes her fine for random battles because she has so many options, but for bosses I think she could use some more damage/support
sleek cloud
I'm more personally inclined to just overhauling Naoto's kit entirely or at leas...
Clearly she needs Hassou Tobi
worldly jasper
i don't really want to overhaul it but otherwise I am open to ideas with her. I ...
I think more support would help her
Inclined to make her a debuff merchant but I don't wanna step on Teddie's toes too hard
true gorge
I think just giving her rakunda to help out with damage does a lot for her.
Even if her damage is not the best, you can save a turn from either the MC or teddie if you guys decide to keep rakunda on him. Not to mention making her megidolaons more effective in normal battles. The fact that she also gets invigorate, means that you can save up SP by using this debuff with her in battles back to back without worrying too much. Kind of like Ken in Reload, who never runs out of SP.
dusky thicket
Inclined to make her a debuff merchant but I don't wanna step on Teddie's toes t...
i guess the question is: if teddie loses marakunda, do you think that would seriously affect how viable he is as a party member
bc then he does have all buffs but realistically mataru is the best one and otherwise he has ok magic
worldly jasper
I mean Marakunda is definitely his best skill
I think it harms him quite a bit especially since Yukiko now has actual support
Although I think being focused on buffs instead makes more "sense" it is inherently less useful than debuffs
worldly jasper
I don't think he'd be unviable without it but like he'd def be one of the biggest losers of the balance changes
dusky thicket
yeah. not a huge fan of that i'd like him to stay good
if there's anything he could get...
worldly jasper
I honestly think his vanilla design is fine tbh besides his bike skills being kinda useless
worldly jasper
even with auto-raku and such?
i mean auto-rakukaja probs fits kanji better
it doesn't rly add anything to teddie
i think locking marakunda to bike is fine tbh
especially bike 1 like that's accessible af
and masukunda is like worse but its okay
dusky thicket
yeah it's s4 it's fine
worldly jasper
he def needs better for the other ranks tho lmao
walls needing to be so late into bikes is such a shame
ain't nobody using those 💔
dusky thicket
yeah 😔
cant be fixed without an excessive amount of effort
oh well
re patra is also basically useless i felt like making him an immediate alternative to yukiko was better
worldly jasper
i mean im team "just put them in base kit lol"
dusky thicket
(diarama)
worldly jasper
but you'd need to adjust level gaps a bit for dat
worldly jasper
insta-heal
although that kinda fits yukiko more given she has better ailment cleanse
dusky thicket
maybe it fits teddie so that he can just heal himself without help
but also where would he even get it
B2? S6?
you only get it at lvl 77 at the earliest lol so maybe later bike
true gorge
Hey, have you guys looked at balancing the strong shadows?
Like contrarian king doing super high dmg. (Does anyone have an explanation as to why he does this anyway?)
true gorge
Is this also the case with his other skills or just rampage?
That explains a lot. It reminds me of P5 where there is a fake megidolaon that does 9999 dmg, and megidolaon2 (the normal one).
dusky thicket
this seems ok. just need to change evade phys
true gorge
Enduring Soul
dusky thicket
That explains a lot. It reminds me of P5 where there is a fake megidolaon that d...
p3 and p4 do the exact same thing btw
dusky thicket
Enduring Soul
no
true gorge
Right, too many passives
dusky thicket
all party members already get endure from s.link
i forgot about that too before if it makes you feel better
true gorge
Enduring soul stacks with endure
dusky thicket
that's not the issue the issue is having more than 1 endure lol
true gorge
yes fair enough, you can tell I just finished playing p3r
I literally suggested it because teddie is like, mage aigis
It's his last bike skill, so it has to be somewhat good.
dusky thicket
So I'm thinking:
Slink
1 Invigorate 1/2
2 Bufudyne
3 Ziodyne
4 Heat Riser
5 Mind...
why move mind charge?
dusky thicket
fair
I think S4 is appropriate for it
i added invigorate 1 innate to naoto
I would like to get the dynes, invig 2+3, and mind charge in SL
just have to figure out a good order bc I like mind charge being early
true gorge
I did that because I wanted to get invigorate and her dyne skills early
dusky thicket
in base p4 you get mind charge at lvl 56 lol (she starts at 55)
true gorge
and getting heat riser for the last skill is kind of underwhelming
dusky thicket
oh and we talked debuffs too
perhaps invigorate 2/3 in bike rides as filler skills lol
it is funny to move useless skills from SL to bike where they're even more useless
true gorge
I think bike rides should add something extra or improve what the character already has.
dusky thicket
it would technically be doing the latter
true gorge
Nothing from the bike rides should be redundant since they require a time slot.
dusky thicket
p4g devs: oops
true gorge
I think S4 is appropriate for it
for resist phys?
true gorge
i've just realized,
if teddie gets insta heal and resist phys, he basically becomes aigis lol
But he IS a bear. I imagine he must be kind of like spongebob.
where you can punch it and not really take much dmg
dusky thicket
i actually think resist phys teddie would be really funny
true gorge
I mean, he gets pushed around all the time by yosuke and mc
dusky thicket
where you can punch it and not really take much dmg
it represents his growth from the start of the game
true gorge
and he just gets back up lol
true gorge
and the animation is so funny lol
true gorge
hahahahaha
true gorge
Honestly, I'm liking the idea more and more.
And it is definitely worth it for the last skill in the bike ride.
dusky thicket
this is funny
true gorge
But then there is the issue of him having too many passives
He has
Boost
Amp
Evade his weakness
Insta heal
All debuffs
true gorge
Is there a church-like facility in p4?
dusky thicket
bike rides
true gorge
Oh... but you can't do them whenever you want.
dusky thicket
its a bit of a waste yea
true gorge
So you cant really spec your party members.
dusky thicket
just dont fuck it up the first time
true gorge
I made a mod for P5 where you can just spec your party members without using up time.
dusky thicket
p4 bike rides also only let you relearn 1 old skill
true gorge
Like in p5 strikers.
Yeah, that is a big issue if someone has too many skills.
Why not move insta heal to someone else, like yosuke.
I mean, makara break, really
dusky thicket
i guess it just leads to people having to choose between skills, which i think is fine
he no longer has makara break
true gorge
Sorry can you send me the updated list?
I have a couple of suggestions. Take them with a grain of salt, of course.
dusky thicket
true gorge
Nice
can i get a link to the excel sheet so that I don't have to write/comment using ms paint lol
dusky thicket
think i have it set to comment only but go for it https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jVc8tTxffd6m-Klwlsq0eP6xNGuu3_fZnXnExWfa_fs/edit?gid=806970596#gid=806970596
true gorge
Oh nice, you moved ailment boost to yosuke
worldly jasper
this seems ok. just need to change evade phys
mustard bomb is pretty like dogshit especially for a bike skill
worldly jasper
Spell master undervaules the accessory too.
the accessory's much better for chie
due to her lower sp pool and frankly much better unique skill
dusky thicket
agreed
worldly jasper
i think spell master as b5 for naoto would be pretty funny tho lol
not that she needs it
dusky thicket
yea i dont think she needs it
that's a pretty underwhelming b5
part of me was thinking it would be hilarious to give her black viper b5 but i think that's a little silly
worldly jasper
i still think the amps are kinda redundant af on naoto though
considering like she already has meghidoraonn
ofc dynes end up better if you stack amp with accessory but i really do not think she needs all 4 amps
like realistically the only one you'd ever use on her is ice
dusky thicket
why?
if it's bc of frost shot, there are now elemental weapons for all other elements
worldly jasper
it just feels like bloat. nobody is gonna run 4 dynes with 4 seperate amps, and there's no real benefit to doing so
well frost shot also gives ice boost lol
dusky thicket
so do these
worldly jasper
unless naoto has boost weapons for every single element
worldly jasper
lol
dusky thicket
magic ability would be so nice
worldly jasper
still though ice is kinda highkey still the best one since it means you can run 3 ice user team 😈
dusky thicket
lmao
worldly jasper
goated for marie (means you only need to use one break skill)
but yeah idk its like
realistically speaking
having all 4 just means you'll take naoto to the bikes once, learn the first amp, then learn 3 other pointless skills the next 3 visits
worldly jasper
I think none at all fits better tbf lol
dusky thicket
so maybe just get rid of the amps altogether is easier
worldly jasper
Like her elemental magic only really exists for coverage anyways
dusky thicket
i'm trying to work some debuffs into naoto's lvling kit
rn you get light/dark boost before multi target
im thinking you should get multi target first then boost bc the boost makes it like guaranteed
worldly jasper
that'd probs make more sense
especially since hamaon with boost is like fucking, 90%
dusky thicket
I am also thinking marakunda and matarunda
worldly jasper
yea i was gonna say
dusky thicket
not sure if she needs any other debuffs
worldly jasper
those fit in a way that mahasukunda just doesn't
worldly jasper
mahatarunda would be my pick for her but yukiko already has dat
dusky thicket
oh i was thinking both
worldly jasper
kind of a meme skill ngl
worldly jasper
tempest slash ain't really doing anything for her
neither is deathbound
like fucking
worldly jasper
deathbound: 175 base, phys
meghidora: 320 base, almighty
dusky thicket
they are kinda useless imo so i dont see an issue with moving them up a few levels to fit more useful skills early
worldly jasper
he also has higher ma than st and has mind charge
so his phys feels pretty pointless in my imo
like if anything's to be cut then i'd say deathbound or invig 2
dusky thicket
invig 2 is probably the easiest to cut then
worldly jasper
thoughts on karns?
not very good but still feel like something that should stay
dusky thicket
when do you think she should get the multi target insta kills
currently she gets them at 68/70 i kinda want to move them to like low 60s
worldly jasper
could just like
literally swap the placements of her boosts with the aoes
maybe makarakarn before them tho
so like
dusky thicket
other way around
worldly jasper
mahanmaonn and mahamudoon in that case
dusky thicket
worldly jasper
that works yea
worldly jasper
probably needs to be bike if she's getting multiple debuffs innate
so that's fair
dusky thicket
actually lol
if it is in anything besides B1 it can only be used in January and later
dusky thicket
probably needs to be bike if she's getting multiple debuffs innate
only 1 debuff innate rn
dusky thicket
marakunda is late but like idk how to fit it sooner
worldly jasper
i mean tbh
worldly jasper
debilitate bike 1 would still be fine
or just keep it sl 10
like idk
even with being gigabuffed she's still not that good
dusky thicket
just not sure what to do with naoto's bike skills bc they're ass lol
worldly jasper
still like bottom 1 dps
true gorge
marakunda is late but like idk how to fit it sooner
Bike!
dusky thicket
teddie already has bike marakunda
true gorge
wait really?
dusky thicket
i'd like this one in lvl up
true gorge
My only concern is that characters get too many support skills.
dusky thicket
also speaking of teddie i am leaving mustard bomb, i know it's shit but i dont want to give 3 charas blight (aoe ailment phys)
true gorge
Usually, ~3 passives and ~2-3 support skills.
worldly jasper
i don't think there should be like rigid rules to it
aigis gets 4 support skills, 6 if you count healing, at endgame in p3
dusky thicket
marakunda, insta heal, resist phys is very funny for teddie
true gorge
The thing is, you end up in a situation where you don't know what to take out.
worldly jasper
ali dance 
true gorge
Firm Stance
worldly jasper
sotru
firm stance is a meme skill but its still broken
like if kanji had it then it'd be insane
in general tho like
it depends on how limited you want a character to be
i think kanji's someone who should have limited support meanwhile someone like naoto or teddie should be more versatile there
since their damage and defense is a lot lower
true gorge
dusky thicket
i wonder what else naoto could get
black viper would be so funny but it feels extremely out of place
true gorge
Another single-target physical as one of her hearly bike skills maybe
She starts out with tempest slash
Maybe throw in brave blade
or idk smth like that
her persona does have a sword
worldly jasper
arms master chie feels kinda like
incongruent with her actual build
like it fits kanji cus he's a tank
chie has like average en and hp
true gorge
Why not swap them out?
dusky thicket
arms master kanji would be so funny but nah
true gorge
Make kanji learn power charge innately, and chie through bike rides
worldly jasper
i mean i'd probs do that personally but i'm much more prone to like major overhauls than brawler and meovv are
i'm a healer kanji truther 😈
dusky thicket
i am trying to keep things somewhat conservative, yeah
true gorge
I just think that the LAST bike skill
dusky thicket
for this mod
true gorge
should be something really good
like something you actually want to commit to
I mean, kanji gets mediarama
worldly jasper
i think kanji not having power charge at all til bike 5's kind of mean tho lol
like the base of most of his skills also got nerfed
dusky thicket
did they?
worldly jasper
he might just be like kinda bad without it
dusky thicket
that would not be ideal lol
true gorge
Oh, you guys also balanced skills?
dusky thicket
well I think power charge S6 is a little early
dusky thicket
Oh, you guys also balanced skills?
dusky thicket
honestly if it's possible to give kanji power charge s6 back, it's less changing
actually
how would kanji with arms master be
true gorge
Yeah, but what can he get for his last bike skill then?
dusky thicket
with his skills being nerfed
dusky thicket
teddie thickens too
dusky thicket
ok, here's what I think
true gorge
like junpei in p3
worldly jasper
he has erec boost and amp in base game
dusky thicket
perhaps elec amp should be moved to bike or SL
true gorge
I havent played golden in a bit
dusky thicket
move elec boost into base moveset or SL
worldly jasper
erm junpei's elemental damage is still slightly lower than Mitsuru's theoretical max in p3 🤓 ☝️
worldly jasper
unless you mean reload in which case ye junpei wins
true gorge
His theurgy T-T
dusky thicket
erm junpei's elemental damage is still slightly lower than Mitsuru's theoretical...
midsuru meta...
worldly jasper
you said p3 not p3r sksksk
true gorge
Honestly, Kanji is just junpei without crits
worldly jasper
midsuru meta...
she's cracked vro
worldly jasper
Nah Kanji and P3R Junpei are very different
true gorge
all he needs is high counter
worldly jasper
Kanji has Matarukaja in base game lol not Maraku
dusky thicket
for... reasons
true gorge
i mean here
worldly jasper
He also has no multi-target skills whereas Junpei is like mostly those in p3r
worldly jasper
he's most similar to p3r akihiko but just with actually decent level gaps lol
but that's also true for base game kanji
true gorge
Nah, Yosuke is akihiko.
true gorge
Well but it's a matter of magic and phys dmg.
dusky thicket
thoughts on elec amp being moved from lvl to bike?
true gorge
Only if it is kind of early on.
worldly jasper
zased imo
true gorge
Or tier 4
worldly jasper
i think he shouldn't have it at all so its like a decent concession
true gorge
Tier 5 should be something that amplifies his options.
Elec amp on him is kind of eh...
I remember I ditched all of his magic passives for the phys ones when I first played.
worldly jasper
dw guys his like 38 magic is gonna do crazy damage trust
i mean there's nothing to really replace his boosters in his like actual kit when building him
since primal force is his only attacking skill
dusky thicket
yeah his moveset is very one sided lol
true gorge
I did like getting power charge via leveling him up.
dusky thicket
maybe amp needs to stay in lvl up after all
true gorge
Bike ride I'm also okay with it.
dusky thicket
I was thinking of returning power charge to s6
worldly jasper
yeah his moveset is very one sided lol
not a bad thing tbf
its just a shame that like
no other skill keeps up with primal
true gorge
Insta-heal for the last kanji skill then. Thoughts?
dusky thicket
in this mod, amagidyne does!
worldly jasper
the gap between vile assault and primal is pretty massive now lol
i meant for kanji
worldly jasper
like there's no niche scenarios where down bonus is better just cus primal mogs in terms of base
true gorge
Hey guys, I also made a kind of balancing on my own.
worldly jasper
Insta-heal for the last kanji skill then. Thoughts?
doesn't rly fit him at all
dusky thicket
he does get fast healing in b4 lol
worldly jasper
he has no ailment cure and immunity to ailments doesn't rly do much for him
true gorge
Would you mind taking a look at that? I nerfed more than I buffed.
dusky thicket
so clearly atlus thought so
worldly jasper
sure
true gorge
dusky thicket
actually wait
true gorge
It's a bit basic.
true gorge
I miss atom smasher
worldly jasper
severe barely buffed
dusky thicket
bike 2!!!
dusky thicket
it is the only one he gets 😭
worldly jasper
and its LAME
true gorge
What's the issue with atom smasher?
worldly jasper
i mean like
true gorge
I thought it was fine, and not too powerful.
worldly jasper
- its shit and serves no purpose on him
- it actively contradicts his established archetype
literally no benefit to it existing on him
worldly jasper
i mean im in favour of zero multi-target on kanji
i think they should be removed lol
true gorge
Good question.
dusky thicket
a part of me thinks divine grace b5 would be funny to play into that secondary kanji healing role but i think that's only realistic on an accessory
true gorge
Mediarama is that one wacky skill
like Hama and Mudo on chie and yukiko
or mustard bomb on teddie
Okay what if. Insta heal for teddie
dusky thicket
im struggling here - i need a new SL and bike skill for Kanji
dusky thicket
i already did give teddie fast heal
worldly jasper
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uAQddwWzLaSBC1r6PSJdQrmUPgXf4smuNinmMNNr...
Will keep it brief since this thread is for meovv and brawler's project, but like from my perspective the skill changes don't really address most of the actual issues they have. Severe magic buff is needed and is nice in spirit, but no changes to wider magic progression feels a bit odd. Phys also has the same issue as base game where crit rates are generally too high and also most skills feel incredibly samey, and the near identical stats that most phys have to each other is also not really addressed. Severe/Massive phys nerf also kind of just cements magic as always superior, as Brave Blade even starts losing to tier 3 magic now. Almighty buff is also good conceptually, but Morning Star and especially Black Viper becoming the best skills in the game is really weird levels of wank, even if I do think they need buffed pretty heavily.
dusky thicket
fun thing is that this mod also doesnt really change difficulty anyways
it just rebalances things
difficulty changes are a side effect
dusky thicket
im struggling here - i need a new SL and bike skill for Kanji
any ideas?
worldly jasper
for what rank specifically
dusky thicket
also yeah the entirety of naoto's bike skills are still fucked lol
S8 and B5 although I can move things around
true gorge
I need to look at the chart again hold up.
dusky thicket
true gorge
Kanji looks fine like this
worldly jasper
I think Arms Master fits best but I get not wanting him to have it (makes more sense than chie tho lol)
true gorge
but if you do replace his last skill. Just give him insta heal.
Remove that from teddie, and just keep resist phys on him.
true gorge
he does?
worldly jasper
yea
dusky thicket
when he gets his tier 3 persona
i forgot about those 😭
true gorge
I think media as his first skill is like, super underwhelming.
for bike rides. When I saw which skills he got when I was playing the game I was like: no neuron activation
dusky thicket
Mediarahan rank 5 would also be hella funny
it would be. but it's a little much
I'll throw arms master in as B5
true gorge
Aren't we trying to reinvent the wheel here?
dusky thicket
it's in lvling now
i could revert it and then remove regen 2 again
wouldnt be an issue per say it's just weird
true gorge
Will keep it brief since this thread is for meovv and brawler's project, but lik...
Thanks for the feedback. I was thinking doing a variation of crit vs accuracy vs power for the different skills. I was just trying to nail down the power levels here.
dusky thicket
i could revert it and then remove regen 2 again
im just going to do this... too much trouble lol
unless anyone can think of a nice S8
true gorge
Definitely not tetra break
Remove regenerate 3 from his learnset
and just move it to his s8
dusky thicket
i think there is the distinct possibility of getting regen 3 before regen 2 in that case
true gorge
Or give him elec amp
true gorge
i think there is the distinct possibility of getting regen 3 before regen 2 in t...
I was thinking the same thing.
true gorge
True true..
dusky thicket
elec boost
true gorge
Move power charge up
dusky thicket
s8 seems nice for it
true gorge
replace power charge with dekunda
dusky thicket
then i'd have to change lvling again
i think this is fine
almost done... just... naoto now
meovv specifically advised against severes bc he thought it'd be too overtuned
dusky thicket
yeah
true gorge
or social link skills
dusky thicket
ok so let's combine both here
first off: these are naoto's bike dates. this is every single one. there's almost no leniency for missing them
dusky thicket
so all her bike besides B1 could be strong i think
second off: I want dynes in SL, not bike
mind charge should also be early
i want invigorate somewhere too
the rest of it is just rough
I am unironically thinking replace angelic grace with ali dance bc B5
true gorge
dusky thicket
naoto already kinda mid so mmm
true gorge
Dont forget the debilitate in S10
dusky thicket
not a fan of enduring soul B5
i went with ali dance instead
do angelic grace and ali dance stack
dusky thicket
wish there was a magic ability
true gorge
order aside
dusky thicket
I did invigorate 2 for B1
true gorge
ah ok
dusky thicket
i would love to have invig 1 in lvling but it's either that or matarunda and i think the debuff is better
dusky thicket
?
true gorge
Yeah
true gorge
Well, naoto is just suppossed to be ken/haru
Tetra Makara and Heat riser
the marakunda/tarunda is an extra skill outside of their archetype, the way i see it
dusky thicket
she honestly seems like an all arounder in terms of damage, like all the different types of dmg
true gorge
So is ken and haru
dusky thicket
not really
dusky thicket
ken is pierce/light, haru is gun/support, but naoto kinda gets all damage types and the debuffs are a new thing bc she's useless in boss fights
true gorge
ken also gets ziodyne
dusky thicket
that's a holdover from when zio was his only damaging magic skill
true gorge
Yeah, but he is the closest i think.
dusky thicket
they're different archetypes either way
true gorge
in my mind they all join late
have barriers
and have heat riser lol
thats about it
dusky thicket
i think naoto still ends up losing with this balance patch but hopefully is a bit better now
true gorge
definitely
just compare vanilla to now
just having marakunda/debilitate+buffing almighty (if you guys did that)
does a lot for her, i think
dusky thicket
looks like almighty was buffed
true gorge
So, is she good to go? Or is there something else?
dusky thicket
S10 still
true gorge
I think marakunda on lv66 is super late
dusky thicket
angelic grace was a thought but it feels wrong to me for some reason
i agree but there is no room in her moveset without moving some stuff around
true gorge
Bike ride!
dusky thicket
that's even worse
true gorge
Can't you pretty much just move skills around however you like?
dusky thicket
actually 61, switched it and makara
could be convinced to move it back but it doesn't really matter, you'll get it either way for the namatame fight
dusky thicket
just wanted to have makara closer
dusky thicket
that's bc there is no other ailment phys besides blight with that lvl of power lol
dusky thicket
true gorge
what's the issue with this?
