Persona 4 Golden | Clean Balance Tweaks

[supple oak]

Simple P4G mod making small, simple and clean tweaks to the game's balance, following Atlus' own design guidelines.

• Rebalances every physical skill to directly adhere to Atlus' own ranking system for skills.
• Rebalances Heavy and Severe magic skills to be significantly comparable to phys of the same level, inspired by FES.
• Changes Magician Arcana mutation to not only make magic worth upgrading, but prevent exploits such as God's Hand Izanagi while still having powerful upgrades. A fully mutated Izanagi will end up with the same skillset as Persona 3 Reload's Izanagi.
• Changes almost every equipment effect to stop inexplicable downgrades the further you get in the game, and make more sense for the characters that can wear it.
• Makes changes to female armor to remove categoric disadvantages in comparison to male armor such as having reduced stat growth or only Auto-Sukukaja.
• Increases the power of weapons that have low accuracy, to prevent them from being objectively bad picks.
• Makes Artisan trade weapons have upgrades on top of cosmetic changes, similar to Alarm versions of weapons in P5R.
• Adds new elemental weapons for every character. Most of them are provided by the Artisan.
• Makes changes to story bosses to remove secret resistances due to the new balance, increases the HP of some later game enemies, makes them all crittable, some stats are increased to match PS2 stats.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uf3oywmJgnvL8p4b0Nvdj9c6sRUo1Kf3BDxvphpYHIo/htmlview#

[sleek cloud]

Love the name

[supple oak]

[supple oak]

@dusky thicket toning down magic a bit will solve it

even in its current state its not even comparable to izanagi god's hand

because that would last you till the very end of the game

ziodyne izanagi is also not boosted, so that by itself is also not very comparable

• Reduces dyne to 330->220
• Reduces player-usable Severes to 650->350 (Almighty unaffected)

[crystal rover]

Question: Do you need a clean save for this mod?

[dusky thicket]

I think as it is, you can use any save with this mod

I was going to look into moveset changes later and that would require a clean save, but that can just be made a config option or addon if that happens

[supple oak]

oh yeah i also need to halve hp item recovery

golden doubled all of them

not just compared to ps2 its just doubled in general

usually its 50>100>200

p4g is 100>200>400

[sleek cloud]

Remember when this was just gonna be for equipment

[supple oak]

[supple oak]

• Reduced the effectiveness of purchasable heal items (100 -> 200 -> 400) back to what they were on PS2 as well as every single other Persona game that came before and after Golden (50 -> 100 -> 200->)

[supple oak]

Oh yeah I forgot to mention this anywhere but some third semester skills are a bit different

Youthful Wind works exactly like Cadenza now (but i'm not sure about this because it no longer gets affected by Divine Grace)

Man's Way now acts like Reload Jack Bros, but I'm pretty sure if the down misses so does the damage

[sleek cloud]

I may or may not stream a playthrough of this when this is finished....if my PC is not cooked

[supple oak]

interesting

im curious to see if izanami is fine at level 70

she hits like a truck at 99 but also the player damage means you can skip her world's end phase still and skip straight to thousand curses

if you store your charges and time it

world's end is basically night queen but it's so telegraphed you can rush it

and removing the telegraph is kinda bullshit because it hits harder than night queen actually

[golden raft]

i love cbt

[supple oak]

[worldly jasper]

could also just buff the base of youthful wind a bit or just give it a bonus effect

[supple oak]

First "heavy" class heal skill

[dusky thicket]

I just realized what the name is short for lmao

[golden raft]

[dusky thicket]

can't wait for meovv's P3R: CBT

[golden raft]

all atlus games should have cbt

[dusky thicket]

I had some small preliminary thoughts about the roles each party member should play if anyone wants to do a sanity check on these. some of these might be similar to base game so those wouldn't be changed much/at all in that case

protagonist: wild card
yosuke: jack of all trades. I'm thinking decent phys/magic at all points alongside single target healing. also wondering if maybe he should lean into some of those ailment phys moves since he has ailments in his moveset
Chie: glass cannon phys, both single and multi target. probably crit focused
Yukiko: mage + healing, similar to base game, but I kinda think it'd be nice if she had something else to do besides those things bc she's not as useful against enemies that null fire and don't necessitate constant healing. preferably something that leans into her high SP?
Kanji: single target phys tank. playing with the idea of making his AOEs non existent or trash but having his single target be unrivaled, but I worry that would make him too essential for bosses
Teddie: heals, okay magic, and buffs. remove marakunda but then give him other buff skills that exist (maybe breaks??? I was also thinking crit boosters but Chie has those rn)
Naoto: in golden I actually think she ends up being a good all arounder in terms of skill variety. she has all magic after all. we've talked debuffs before but with Naoto's all around traits I almost wonder if she shouldn't receive debuffs, maybe that could be relegated to a different party member like... Yosuke??? idk

I kinda like the idea of giving party members more defined roles, which kinda includes their support skills being focused on one or two party members rather than spread out between everyone

[supple oak]

a lot of those changes feel too drastic to me

yosuke having some more phys in between is a fine idea, chie is already crit-based because all her moves are naturally higher crit + revolution buff, yukiko doesn't have to be effective in every battle, it's an incentive to switch her out, idk about the rest

[dusky thicket]

does Chie get revolution? I forget

[sleek cloud]

She does

[dusky thicket]

ok cool

I kinda like having characters specifically focused around buffs or debuffs; that's something I don't care too much for in P4 or P5, where the characters just have random buffs and debuffs spread out. I don't know that it really helps synergy that much, the most I could see is potentially wanting a character for their (de)buff skill, but I still think having dedicated support characters is more interesting

kind of the logic behind like Teddie being more buff focused and the existence of a debuffer

[supple oak]

i prefer them being spread out much more, makes a lot more sense and the only downside is the fact sukukaja is often receiving the short end of the stick

someone hoarding all of it inflates their importance

maintaining uptime becomes more challenging but you can just brainlessly rotate and suddenly there's one less party member

a lot of buffs in p4 come from bike too

same with jazz club in p5

[dusky thicket]

how would you feel if a party member had say, all 3 buffs, but they weren't the only ones with those buffs? I think that's already kind of the case in P4 iirc?

Chie and Teddie both getting taru for example

(ignoring dragon hustle)

[supple oak]

i think teddie's role doesn't have to change considering he relies on it and mediarahan to stay relevant where yukiko is now top dps and chie has aoe heat riser

teddie + yosuke makes a perfect combo because of youthful wind

if you wanted that alternative

and it makes sense, given that p4g is designed in "pairs" of friends

yosuke + teddi, chie + yukiko, kanji + naoto

kanji and naoto have no synergy

[dusky thicket]

so perhaps that's something to look at

[supple oak]

not sure what you could do

if this was p5r you could have naoto be the one physically charging kanji but that's a waste of a party member slot

[dusky thicket]

Chie Yukiko works well bc Chie covers phys and buffs, Yukiko has DPS and healing

then Yosuke and Teddie.... I guess Teddie has buffs + healing and Yosuke is an all arounder?

Kanji + Naoto is a tough one but it does make me think Naoto having debuffs would be pretty fun

[supple oak]

teddie's buffs directly complement youthful wind, so the two of them can keep buff and heal uptime cheaper than chie at the cost of being a bit weaker

naoto having at least marakunda would be fine

[dusky thicket]

mediarama kanji takes care of healing

[supple oak]

debilitate ideally

would free up the slot on mc

[dusky thicket]

yeah I think she would probably receive that for sure

debilitate would be far more useful than heat riser anyways

[supple oak]

heat riser has a funny niche in p4g

if you have chie and someone debilitates the mc you're not going to dragon hustle again it costs way too fucking much

you'd heat riser

[dusky thicket]

I know another thing that bothers me about P4G is the way a lot of the bike skills are useless lol

[supple oak]

yeah because p4 doesnt have enough skills

if they were all good everyone would be cracked as shit

[dusky thicket]

a lot of them feel very random too like mediarama kanji is an easy one bc it feels like a meme. but seriously you would likely just want Yukiko/Teddie as healers, or even an item, before focusing on kanji doing healing

[supple oak]

i dont even think mediarama kanji is that much of a meme actually

[dusky thicket]

I don't think there's enough time to do all the bike rides, or if there is, it is difficult, so I would think that if you commit to a set of bike rides with a party member, it should be rewarding

[supple oak]

he has basically infinite SP because he never uses it, and in the endgame i actually found myself healing with kanji to let yukiko attack instead

(with mod)

[dusky thicket]

with mod, makes sense

Yukiko is number 1 damage dealer in the mod right

[supple oak]

after nerfing severes again im not sure but i think so yes

[sleek cloud]

Are you able to do all the bike rides and max every SL in NG+?

[supple oak]

yeah

[dusky thicket]

it seems pretty hard to do so

is that right? I've never been good at optimal pathing lol so

[supple oak]

is it? the nonNG+ guide maxes them all and reads all books

with like a month to spare

[dusky thicket]

sheesh

maybe I should use said guide next time lmao

[supple oak]

the guide specifically is for platinum without ng+

which is impossible but i digress

[dusky thicket]

I've done two playthroughs already, don't think it would hurt much to use a guide the third time

[supple oak]

i used the guide on ng+ and skipped ahead on any day that required me to get stats

that might've contributed to the extra free days by a lot

[dusky thicket]

makes sense

anyways.... do you roughly like the way party members are balanced already? I kinda felt like I would prefer them to be changed a bit to have more specific niches but synergy is definitely something I didn't think too much about

I know some of the things I had in mind like single target kanji were made with vanilla balance in mind - his moveset is already roughly single target focused so leaning into that and making his AOE much more of an afterthought seemed interesting to me 🤷

[supple oak]

they feel mostly fine at a glance, i feel any significant change would break scope and that kinda includes naoto who has much stronger phys now too

debilitate def a must on her tho

even if you put it on bike

though being fair naotos phys is aoe and she has way less strength than kanji

quite literally impossible to compete with kanji

yosuke can equip his way into 99 but then brave blade is weaker

chie has the higher crit, idk how that compensates

[dusky thicket]

honestly I don't think it's too much of an issue to go outside scope as long as it's not super crazy, which I don't feel any of those changes were.

these also should be options either way bc save compatibility

what I'll probably do is start by looking at Naoto and Yosuke's movesets at the least since we agree there.

honestly I'm a little iffy on Naoto having phys in the first place especially since it completely falls off anyways and it has always felt kind of outside her "intended" skillset if that makes sense

[supple oak]

one can argue she was never supposed to have magic too

feels subjective tbh

she has actual phys progression and her magic is bloat from golden

[worldly jasper]

vile assault + weakness exploitation!!! (/s)

they technically have synergy its just that the only time you could use it you'd just instakill anyways

naoto's phys kinda feels out of place though given megido serves the same role

i feel like her phys moves make more sense for yosuke really

not that he "needs" it but just that like Naoto rarely if ever will use her aoe phys anyways because megidola and megidolaon will literally always outdamage and can be boosted by her mind charge

her kit in general is almost entirely leaned into shit that's good for normal encounters (shitty magic to down, instakills and megido for wiping, aoe phys for spam) with next to no options for actual boss fights, so i feel like you kinda need to rework her a bit from scratch to make her feel more "viable"

Yukiko as a character has the highest lu stat in the game so if you're overhauling characters a bit, she needs at least something to use that on. At least having an ailment feels like a no brainer.

Kanji will only really feel overcentralising for bosses if you're going specifically for phys, like he obviously has the best single-target phys damage but I think other characters really bring more to the team besides endgame where he has Matarukaja for no reason. Could maybe sub him into Marakukaja given he has Rakukaja innate or maybe just switch it out entirely to something new?

[worldly jasper]

some level gaps inevitably need changed due to rebalanced skills and I think certain characters could use a bit of a boost or just mechanical overhaul tbh

not that you need to completely retool them but a little touching up feels necessary given a lot was changed

[dusky thicket]

I'll throw an actual draft together and we can work from there

[worldly jasper]

I think removing Kanji's aoe entirely is a good idea though

[dusky thicket]

for starters, this is an issue I think and we can solve this by giving her hassou tobi late game

[worldly jasper]

I genuinely think you could cut out Maha-Jio skills and elec boosters entirely from his kit and he'd still be great

[dusky thicket]

[worldly jasper]

They feel really unnecessary

[dusky thicket]

I think it mainly makes sense to cut most AOE from Kanji's kit besides maybe shitty options, if his single target damage is unrivaled

[worldly jasper]

Like its not as if Junpei needed maharagidhain, boost and amp to function

[worldly jasper]

zero aoe at all is kinda cooler

[sleek cloud]

Also might be a good idea to give Yosuke Black Viper

[worldly jasper]

flames

im a yosuke aoe phys truther tho fr

[dusky thicket]

I also kinda want to make at least a few of the bike skills worth going for

actually though I think stuff like mind charge being locked behind bike rides is rly funny given Yukiko needs that in base game to be competitive yet it's just locked for some reason

[worldly jasper]

yea those need overhauled almost entirely

megidolaon yosuke

they should def give skills that are actually good though fr

ones that are fitting for each character that add to their niches

[dusky thicket]

I do kinda like Naoto getting elemental magic tbh

it's not good obviously bc it's naoto

[worldly jasper]

it just feels kinda wasted

the game just isn't designed to accomodate it

you'd need to fundamentally change boss design to make it not immediately terrible and even then it'd at best be okay

[dusky thicket]

I like it in concept really haha

[worldly jasper]

but yea idk

i think most characters need a bit of touching up

chie not upgrading her single target for almost the entire game is funny

[dusky thicket]

yeah I kinda want to give the characters more specific roles but meovv brought up a good point about them synergizing in pairs

so then looking at it that way, it's a combo of pair synergy + solo viability as the third member

[worldly jasper]

i think pairs are less important more than like grander team comps. every character should feel like they have a role in a party

[dusky thicket]

I don't really want to deviate too much from what P4 has already established unless it's like Yosuke where his moveset is just ???

but I think there's room to work with

[worldly jasper]

not that characters need to be viable in all contexts, but just that every character needs a defined reason to bring them and a skill set that can spring off other characters

[dusky thicket]

right, yeah

what did you think about the initial archetypes I wrote down above

curious what your take is on that

[worldly jasper]

this is part of why i think naoto needs some support skills. even when she's not bad its just like she doesn't do anything

[dusky thicket]

I'm still thinking about what would be good regarding support characters

[worldly jasper]

she doesn't have anything that's not replacable by someone else yknow

[dusky thicket]

the thing with Naoto is that if you give her support skills, that's a really late time to get those support skills bc that's like.... only usable in Heaven and beyond

(assuming they're unique)

is that a problem? idk

[worldly jasper]

Yosuke: Analysis is mostly fine, though he doesn't really have single-target healing. Diarahan is bike ride only and I'm convinced the only reason he has Dia at all is just because you'd need a healer in the starting party, he doesn't necessariy need more healing skills but I don't think they really contradict his design. I think he could take Naoto's aoe phys skills instead as they're kinda pointless, and could have Gale Slash and Heat Wave slotted in also.
Chie: She's not really a glass cannon at all. Her Endurance and HP stats are good enough, and she has the highest Ag in the party. The rest is fine, though I think Chie's AoE specifically feels like it should be geared into multi-hits specifically since all of her iconic ones are. Could also use an upgrade to her Tarukaja, either Ma- or Heat Riser.
Yukiko: I agree with, think one of the ailments could work and perhaps a debuff as well. Perhaps (Ma)Rakunda?
Kanji: I agree with also, should have Mazio skills and his elec boosters dropped entirely imo. Could use having his Matarukaja replaced by something like Marakukaja or Dekunda.
Teddie: I like also. I think Revolution feels out of place, and breaks are pretty pointless all on one guy, so I think just giving him access to the three core buffs would be fine.
Naoto: She really needs more support. Give her some debuffs please. Her phys is also not really serving any purpose on her rn, even less than her magic, so could use being cut. Maybe some crazy shit like giving her Spirit/Life Leech could also be fun.

[worldly jasper]

Debilitate and Matarunda are always good

[dusky thicket]

Chie heat riser is interesting actually

it is funny because if you don't care too much for economy, Chie after third semester just completely takes Teddie's support role lol

[worldly jasper]

give her heat riser at like level 40 or smth

oh yeah characters need their aoe buffs much earlier in general lol

level 60 masukukaja on yosuke is unacceptably bad

should be like mid 40s at worst.

[dusky thicket]

how do you feel about the s.link skills

I haven't thought about those at all lol

kinda wonder what the logic behind balancing those should be

[worldly jasper]

Amrita isn't very good but its still far too early

Chie getting Bufula and Ice Boost early from SL is dumb

Naoto's are just dogshit, invigorates are not good skills (still somehow more worth it than her actual level up shit though) and heat riser is awful for when she gets it

[dusky thicket]

well not Naoto

[worldly jasper]

Kanji shouldn't really get power charge or masukunda in his either

[dusky thicket]

sounds like everything kinda happens too early lol

[worldly jasper]

Not that Kanji shouldn't learn power charge period, but def not from SL

[dusky thicket]

bike skill

they do that with Yukiko as is

[worldly jasper]

Yukiko deserves Mind Charge more than Kanji deserves Power Charge

I think it should be base kit on her tbh, maybe later game though

[dusky thicket]

agreed

[worldly jasper]

Dekaja on Yosuke should be base kit instead of SL

[dusky thicket]

Chie already gets power charge as is so perhaps Kanji should get power charge either later than cheese or through bike rides

[worldly jasper]

Same with Mind Charge on Naotroll

Teddie's Marakunda should probs be Masukukaja instead

[dusky thicket]

hmmm should Kanji get power charge through level up actually

[worldly jasper]

Recarm should also be base kit and not Sl

[dusky thicket]

it is still "easy" to get that way instead of it being like a bike ride thing

[worldly jasper]

I think Bike Ride is more hype

shouldn't be bike ride 5 tho

should be like bike ride 3

bike ride 5 skills should be the best of the best for the character

like arms master or some shit instead

[dusky thicket]

true, I'll move mediarama to bike ride 5

[worldly jasper]

recarmdra

move kanji media to sl

over power charge

tbh

Kanji should probs get all 3 regens rather than just 1 and 3

Oh yeah

Suggest request also

Buff Tetraja to cover all allies and give Naoto it in her base kit instead of bike ride

[dusky thicket]

first one is for meovv to handle. I'll do that for the second one, that sounds like a good idea honestly

[dusky thicket]

this rebalancing stuff is pretty hard actually 💀 I now understand more just how much work this is and i only did this for party members lol

not done obviously but it's funny bc with characters like Yosuke, Yukiko, it felt like they have no lack of skills which made it hard to sort out what they should get. I had the opposite issue for Kanji/Naoto (Kanji especially) where I had no idea what they should get. and SL/bike skills are... oof

(stock for comparison, please give feedback)

[supple oak]

you kinda murdered them all lol

mind charge on yukiko base set holy shit lmao

i'd expect that from P4R not this

yosuke the poor soul is completely destroyed

[dusky thicket]

I'm more than happy to remove that if you think it wouldn't fit. this took long enough that it kinda rotted my brain 😭

[supple oak]

no amp he's literally worst party member now

think p3r yukari but you cant even use equips to compensate

[dusky thicket]

I was really trying to give him some more phys to fit in between his lower and higher end skills but this is where I ran into issues with skill space

[supple oak]

wait did you just replace

personas can have up to 32 learned skills

[dusky thicket]

oh 💀

I thought there was a limit there

man....

[supple oak]

there is

its 32

i wouldnt actually GO FOR 32

but you can

[dusky thicket]

but it gives more flexibility either way

I was limiting myself to no more than the total that Yukiko/Chie had

[supple oak]

keep in mind the bike and the social link having more emphasis is really good

persona 4 is the most social heavy game in the series

you want to leverage that

[dusky thicket]

yep. those are blank because uhhhhhhhh help lol

[supple oak]

but keep in mind SL can happen suuuper early

[dusky thicket]

yeah...

[supple oak]

so anything on sl cant be too good

[dusky thicket]

maybe Naoto could be an exception there?

she joins at 55 lol

[supple oak]

of course

the bike also allows for better stuff i think

[dusky thicket]

I'm trying to get a good feel for how strong the SL and bike skills should be. bike seems like it should be stronger but it's also less frequent than SL so I bet bike 5 could have some really strong stuff

[supple oak]

isnt that unlocked closer to second semester

[dusky thicket]

it's during the summer

so... maybe?

[supple oak]

you need to unlock hot springs

so yeah

[dusky thicket]

oh really

okay

[supple oak]

well yeah you only get the option after the first hot springs scene im sure

[dusky thicket]

well okay, I can look at Yosuke again. do you think that the newer added skills are the right direction?

[supple oak]

comparing with 2 screenshots is hard lol

can i get both tabs

[dusky thicket]

I can and probably will look at everyone again my head just hurts honestly lol. idk how the hell you ever did this, let alone multiple times

let me send the spreadsheet

[supple oak]

movesets is always my least favorite part

so i try to balance around them first if possible

because the worst part with movesets is like

if you want to add something, you need to push the entire skill table down

to make space

copy allllll the hex

then paste

one slot under

[dusky thicket]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jVc8tTxffd6m-Klwlsq0eP6xNGuu3_fZnXnExWfa_fs/edit?usp=sharing

[supple oak]

skills and items and shit is fine you just put all the damage numbers on the sheet, run your calculation formulas then just adjust

[dusky thicket]

there wasn't a "suggest" option so it's set to comments, but do what you want

[supple oak]

aha i see

color coding if something is a new skill or if its level has been changed helps reading

also if something's been removed, but your table doesnt account for that

[dusky thicket]

I saw you were trying to balance around movesets, which was nice. this is really, I want to go after some of the weirdness of some of the party members (like Yosuke physical being sad for example)

[supple oak]

i cant lie i really dont like naoto's drastic cuts

it feels really unfaithful to p4

for better or worse

[dusky thicket]

I also initially went with a lot of shio's suggestions, but I think especially with Kanji and Naoto it hurts a lot

like when you remove Kanji's AOE, what are you left with?

there's enough skills missing that it's like what should they be replaced with? bc clearly Kanji needs a new niche then

[supple oak]

elec boost at 40

[dusky thicket]

this is an area where I wanted feedback haha

[supple oak]

[dusky thicket]

she could get AOE phys but Yosuke now kinda covers that niche

[supple oak]

this fr feels like P4R all naoto needs is Eiha and Kouha

[dusky thicket]

she could get elemental magic but there's a lot of skills to learn in a very short time

thanks... I am trying to improve it though :')

[supple oak]

im thinking

naoto is op in fodder and trash in bosses

debilitate already makes her massively more useful

what else is there besides buffs

breaks arent appealing

karns?

yeah she has that

[dusky thicket]

walls?

feel like that's really limited unless you make them aoe

[supple oak]

also unappealing + walls should belong to their elemental "rep"

[dusky thicket]

I don't think there's anything else besides buffs then

[supple oak]

oh wait do party members never learn walls

oh on bike

[dusky thicket]

two underappreciated areas here in general are ailments and phys ailments

Yosuke is the most ailment heavy user in the game but even then it's kinda limited

[supple oak]

i always saw having all elements + phys + almighty + the karns and stuff as a complement to naoto's personality

she's the detective prince, she's extremely tactical, that would include having a variety of options to "solve" most situations

[dusky thicket]

i was actually wondering if maybe Naoto should get the dynes as a part of her SL

like, all of them

[supple oak]

ailments technically fit, but yosuke is that

that seems like the SL would just be boring

you'd deny all of them

[dusky thicket]

when you think about it that way, megidola goes against that bc it's a fuck you option that goes thru everything

but I can't imagine Naoto without almighty

[supple oak]

it's "all purpose magic"

same way she is without weaknesses

see what you can steal from Shinjiro and Akechi

they are technically the same archetype

[dusky thicket]

it's just not really her being "tactical" in the sense of having the tools to deal with different situations. that's what the other skills are for. megidola just goes through everything

Shinji is mainly physical, which I think is a different archetype.

Akechi mainly focuses single target iirc, but he gets bless and curse + phys + healing

... I think he gets heals?

[supple oak]

as the prince, yes

Check for ailment resistance and ailment self-healing

Loki has Auto-Tarukaja

[dusky thicket]

he gets resist ailments

[supple oak]

the three characters that Naoto is kinda "aligned" with are Akechi, Shinjiro and Aigis

For a multitude of reasons not just the character/kit

[dusky thicket]

see honestly what I'm thinking is, leave the phys skills out but bring the elemental skills back into the rotation

for leveling up at least

maybe even bring back some phys skills for SL/bile

bike

[supple oak]

i still don't see the argument against the phys her Strength stat is better than Yosuke's no?

[dusky thicket]

is it?

[supple oak]

plus vorpal blade was specifically buffed because of her

buffing it for her just for her to no longer have it is really funny

[dusky thicket]

oh lol that is funny

[supple oak]

the skill changes specifically made all the phys she learns much better

[dusky thicket]

I think I mainly worry that Yosuke and Naoto would cover that same area with phys AOE

[supple oak]

that's not really a problem imo

Junpei and Aigis both have aoe too for example

or Ryuji, Yusuke and Sumire

[dusky thicket]

true....

point taken

[supple oak]

obviously one can be better than the other at certain things

[dusky thicket]

do you think Yosuke should maybe have more of a focus on ailment phys?

[supple oak]

Naoto's blight is ailment physical

for his aoes in between Brave Blade and Assault dive or whatever the shit he had

yeah sure why not

[dusky thicket]

power slash lol

[supple oak]

yikes

[dusky thicket]

yeah

that's why I tried to fill it out more lol

[supple oak]

I didn't think you were going to giga overhaul every single kit I was really just thinking Naoto could use a debuff or two and Yosuke could use a little in-between phys

everyone else kinda really does have a set purpose

[dusky thicket]

honestly I was not really trying to overhaul that much

💀

[supple oak]

Yosuke got completely nerfed to the ground it's hilarious

There's no amp equips

i mean there's 50% Up

but he also needs other stuff

[dusky thicket]

well it is a first pass

[supple oak]

if anything removing boost would be better (even if I don't agree) because he does have a wind boost weapon

[dusky thicket]

honestly though my head does hurt from all this

not literally but this is a lot to go through

[supple oak]

yes it's a shitton of thinking and you end up making funny decisions just to end it

[dusky thicket]

yeah lmao

[supple oak]

now imagine me doing this for every enemy in p3r

[dusky thicket]

don't envy you for doing that lol

[supple oak]

i barely touch their skills

i just make sure it's fine

[dusky thicket]

honestly I am tempted to do that here, like revert a lot of stuff just so it's less work

[supple oak]

like hermit I gave it a chance to pop elec break because I found out you could get really lucky and afk it

now you still kinda can but it takes a lot more effort

[dusky thicket]

I think even if I do have more skill slots as an option I would rather not use them if possible, but we shall see how it goes

[supple oak]

I would've started just by making sure they don't learn downgrades

check their mid power and calculated ECS

[dusky thicket]

how did you calculate the ecs factor

or was that just estimated

[supple oak]

Takes the Med Power, which is an average of the hits, then applies a multiplier based on if it's AoE, Ailment, or high crit

The score was a little arbitrary but it worked

[dusky thicket]

you had gotten most of them right, but Chie's gale slash was only a tiny upgrade over rampage

[supple oak]

yeah that's fine because rampage has a higher ceiling too

sidegrade-ish

[dusky thicket]

you get it 9 lvls later

not sure it should be a sidegrade at that point

[supple oak]

afaik Yusuke has something similar in p5

there's a multihit that can technically do more damage but on average you'd want to keep the previous one

or something

I forgot

i kept the one that was more gambly

[dusky thicket]

gale slash is more consistent than rampage here

so I suppose that is overall an upgrade if you think about it

more accurate and consistent damage

[supple oak]

Correct, and Rampage is a gamble where the extra hit is more damage

you'll see that with God's hand and agneyastra as well

[dusky thicket]

I think maybe I'll just look at Yosuke and Naoto last lol

they suck

[supple oak]

they are the only ones i expected changes on

Definitely put Mind Charge back on Bike5 though. The skill that allows someone to become the top damage dealer should be locked behind a lengthy social mechanic

[dusky thicket]

lol I do feel like it wouldn't hurt to take a look at the other ones

will do that

thoughts on kanji power charge also going to B5?

he and Yukiko are kind of the two powerhouses after all

[supple oak]

i leave my pc for 5 seconds and windows updates itself without my consent

[dusky thicket]

nice lol

I think what I'll probably try doing with the other party members is mainly mess with their bike and maybe SL skills

there's a few oddities imo like why is chie high counter level 61....

[supple oak]

50% op

[dusky thicket]

true.....

quick, change it to 50%

the problem is, if i move high counter, there is a huge gap in chie's moveset between 52 and 67

it's already pretty large as is

52 -> 61 is kinda excessive as is and that's stock. but 52 -> 67 is just unacceptable

[supple oak]

yeah any gap larger than 4 levels needs to be checked

[dusky thicket]

well p4g has a lot of those :D

[supple oak]

makes sense

[dusky thicket]

early on there's a lot of skills before you consider s.link skills

later on i suppose there are bike skills too

but it does fall off a lot and it's hard to quantify when you would get a bike or SL skill

[supple oak]

right

[dusky thicket]

if bike skills are after the hot springs scene, that means you're likely around level 55

so for naoto she gets bike and sl skills of about the same power (or she should)

[supple oak]

check unlock date tbf

[dusky thicket]

although later bike can be a lot stronger

for bike skills?

[supple oak]

yup

[dusky thicket]

oh wow naoto's bike dates look like this lol

[supple oak]

wait do you really have to take them at every opportunity

-1 leeway

[dusky thicket]

apparently

[supple oak]

then they can afford to be way more op lol

[dusky thicket]

and all she gets from it stock is this

lmao

[supple oak]

yeesh

myriad arrows on third semester

[dusky thicket]

tetraja is awesome

[worldly jasper]

why push back vile assault? its not that good

Naoto also looks ass there lol

She gets one (1) decent support move and its at the final boss

[dusky thicket]

already heard enough of that lol. im looking at this again

[worldly jasper]

I honestly think Debilitate should be her max SL skill given that hiito raisah is currently

Endure in Kanji's kit does nothing btw

Every party member has the Endure skill by default at SL level 9

[dusky thicket]

this is all i've revised so far. red is stuff that i want to change/needs changed

[worldly jasper]

Chie being green is cursed

[dusky thicket]

makes me wonder if it stacks. i forgor about that

[worldly jasper]

They're the same passive in P5 so probs the same here

[dusky thicket]

she's green

[worldly jasper]

Double endure is also way too good for a party member anyways

[golden raft]

greeie

[dusky thicket]

i completely forgot about SL endure

lol

[worldly jasper]

heat riser as bike 3 on chie is grief af

that's like late as shit and a time sink

imo it should be base kit while matarukaja stays bike

[dusky thicket]

that would be around september/october or so

[worldly jasper]

yea but its also wasted calender days too

imo just like around level 45~ would be better

gives her some support she can do too

still think rainy death is way too late

should be like mid 50s to 60, not 67

too close to god's hand rn

[dusky thicket]

do you think i could get away with

• remove auto taru
• move heat wave down in level
• add heat riser in between heat wave and charge

[worldly jasper]

gale slash and heat wave still feel out of place even if they're technically upgrades now

[dusky thicket]

actually auto-taru as an SL skill could work, right? it's kinda late as shit for no reason

[dusky thicket]

gale slash is a sidegrade apparently

id consider it an upgrade for the higher consistency but

[worldly jasper]

its around even to average rampage now

[dusky thicket]

maybe i move heat wave down then

[worldly jasper]

imo though the inconsistency feels like part of her moveset, similar to Ryuji

nah i think just replace outright for multi-hit

[dusky thicket]

this is good to hear bc i wasnt sure what to do with that skill but the gap between prev skill and rainy death is massive lol

[worldly jasper]

could do like swift strike and myriad arrows, then replace arrow rain with aeon rain

[dusky thicket]

6 levels

swift strike would be a downgrade compared to black spot

[worldly jasper]

oh ig myriad arrows is > aeon rain now

swift strike is aoe silly

oh swift strike and rampage are near identical in the mod

nevermind then lol

[dusky thicket]

oh you're right lol

but yeah no pt

[worldly jasper]

i think arrow rain should def be replaced by aeon rain tho

[dusky thicket]

would Aeon Rain at level 42-44 be too much

[worldly jasper]

aeon rain and arrow rain are almost equivalent on average rn

[dusky thicket]

actually hmmm it might be

perhaps i just lower heat wave, fit heat riser in there, switch the rain skills

[worldly jasper]

gale slash is just kinda frauded idk

im biased against that skill

[dusky thicket]

i am too lol but there isnt rly much i feel i can put there

[worldly jasper]

i feel like switching from multi-hit to single hit isn't rly intuitive character-design wise

are any of the dumb ailment aoes multi-hit

ATOM SMASHAAAAHHH

[dusky thicket]

yeah lol

[worldly jasper]

oh and atom smasher is shit too

it fits perfectly

[dusky thicket]

lmao

actually yeah that works

slightly higher avg dmg + ailment + AOE + multi hit

[worldly jasper]

i think replace gale slash with atom smasher, replace heat wave with blade of fury and replace myriad arrows with aeon rain

[dusky thicket]

yeah as i was saying this is really hard though

myriad arrows?

do you mean arrow rain

[worldly jasper]

oh right its arrow rain rn

yea replace with aeon rain

move rainy death down to like 57 or smth too

[dusky thicket]

can blade of fury be moved up/down? what do you think

[worldly jasper]

maybe rainy death at 55 and move hyper counter back into the 60s

[dusky thicket]

i want to fit heat riser in there somewhere

[worldly jasper]

its about on par with heat wave

[dusky thicket]

i moved high counter down exactly bc it was bad lmao

[worldly jasper]

maybe move it to 48 and slot heat riser in at 45

amagi i think def needs agirao and fire boost a bit earlier

also amrita slotted in to base kit rather than SL

[dusky thicket]

hang on

[worldly jasper]

she already has me patra to deal with most ailments so amrita feels like overkill

[dusky thicket]

should arrow rain be a higher level if rainy death is going down

otherwise there's just the large gap there again

[worldly jasper]

probs a little bit

[dusky thicket]

aeon rain isnt even that big of an upgrade over blade of fury so...

[worldly jasper]

could do myriad arrows then

[dusky thicket]

ehhh too close to agneyastra

[worldly jasper]

tbf its only like 10 levels apart

[dusky thicket]

honestly myriad arrows might even do more dmg than agneyastra overall rn given accuracy

it's definitely close

[worldly jasper]

oh meovv buffed myriad arrows to be really similar to it

imo tone down myriad arrows a tad so agneyastra is still the clear upgrade

[dusky thicket]

how's this

oh right i forgot to do bike skills

ignore that part

[worldly jasper]

i think swap rainy death and high counter

then its basically perfect

[dusky thicket]

high counter is basically a throwaway skill huh lol

[worldly jasper]

nah its still good

less good in p4 for obvious reasons

[dusky thicket]

20% phys counter at lvl 61 is kinda meh i feel like

i moved the counters in general down bc I felt their utility was super limited as is

[worldly jasper]

ig it works then

i just worry rainy death's a bit too late but ig bosses can actually be crit now

so its kosher

[dusky thicket]

yeah, besides, you dont get god hand for another 10 levels

[worldly jasper]

she's just stuck with black spot for a long ass time is all

[dusky thicket]

true...

that is a good point

[worldly jasper]

i'd say give her mighty swing maybe to fill the gap but i don't rly like slash-coded single target on chie

feels wrong idk

[dusky thicket]

I'll move it for now then, high counter can be a little mid in return

[worldly jasper]

even if it fits gameplay-wise

[dusky thicket]

still figuring out what to do with sl and bike skills but this is a start

i think moving ice boost only makes sense since SL 4 is a bit early for that, no one else gets boost that early

and then revolution feels like something that should be later than SL 6

Bufula as B1 works bc you can get that in September and it's only B1. I think working towards Mataru in B3 is worth it bc that's a good skill. Bufudyne feels like a bit of a throw tbh but I don't actually know what to do with it

I don't like Hama Chie anyways I think the concept is silly

by the time you have bike skills you're about to get Naoto anyways

[dusky thicket]

why does she need agilao earlier? as it is, she's one of the earliest users with medium magic even compared to narukami

narukami is just 2 lvls earlier with jack frost

boost I get, but I think agilao is placed perfectly

[worldly jasper]

generally its just kinda obnoxious to get it before the kanji boss

i'd only mean earlier by like one or two levels mind you, amagi doesn't desperately need to start out with it in the same with mitsuru does

[dusky thicket]

it's lvl 21
that's pretty achievable unless you're playing very hard....

[worldly jasper]

i mean i've only played very hard so idk

[dusky thicket]

lmao yeah...

well if it's only 1 level it can't hurt that much

[worldly jasper]

i think you could remove ice boost entirely tbh but bitches would complain

if she don't even get bufula without bike rides i don't really think she needs or deserves ice boost

unless its also tied to bike rides

[dusky thicket]

i mean that's doable there are slots lol

[worldly jasper]

like tetra break's just kinda ass

could slot in ice boost there instead

mind slice also feels filler af

[dusky thicket]

that's why they're highlighted in red

i want to change them i just dunno what to do yet haha

but like ice boost by the time of bike rides is pretty late

then again i suppose bufula by the time of bike rides is also very late

i dont think there's any way to really win there

[worldly jasper]

maybe like white wall replaces mind slice and ice boost replaces tetra break

[dusky thicket]

Teddie gets white wall though

[worldly jasper]

tetrakarn? 🤔

[dusky thicket]

bufula is either too early (S8) or too late (B1)...

honestly I kinda wonder if bufula should just be S8, it is a decent way into Chie's link
certainly not the most harmful thing in the world

[worldly jasper]

i think bike 1 is fine

like chie's not a magic user so it should feel like you need to go out of your way to make her one

[dusky thicket]

bufudyne in B5 is rly late either way

[worldly jasper]

okay funnier idea

[dusky thicket]

realistically you're getting that by November or even January

[worldly jasper]

remove ice boost entirely

bufudyne at B4

Ice Amp at B5

[dusky thicket]

ahahaha

that is funny

[worldly jasper]

i kinda think its flames ngl ngl

[dusky thicket]

i do like it

you go out of your way to get someone specced into single target magic and they're probably still worse than Teddie or maybe Naoto

actually wait, definitely weaker than Naoto she has charge

[worldly jasper]

yea teddie still wins by a lot

she'd be stronger than a naoto without optimal equips

but otherwise naoto wins

i think its pretty heat idk

write that down

[dusky thicket]

i did lol i like the idea

i got completely sidetracked is the problem, I was working on Kanji and I don't even know where I left off

[worldly jasper]

maybe remove ice boost and bufula from her SL entirely for Hama and Hamaon to keep that, but idk if that'd be stepping on naotroll's turf too much

[dusky thicket]

honestly I'm not a fan of Chie having Hama or Hamaon

and yeah it does overlap with naoto

her having hama/hamaon feels very gimmicky

[worldly jasper]

tru dat

[dusky thicket]

honestly now that I look at Kanji I'm not rly convinced his lvl skills need a lot of changing

I did try removing AOE but that just left me with so few skills

[worldly jasper]

i think vile assault's def too late given it was nerfed

i think he could just use like

more phys

you could also unironically slot in like media, mediarama and recarmdra if you're feeling daring.

[dusky thicket]

why is the ECS so high on vile assault

[worldly jasper]

maybe too much of a meme tho

[worldly jasper]

accounting for down bonus

[dusky thicket]

ahhh

[worldly jasper]

1.5x

[dusky thicket]

honestly to me it seems like it's only worth moving down a couple of levels at most

[worldly jasper]

what's kanji at rn

[worldly jasper]

i mean bloody ken amada gets it at like 58

and kanji's much more a phys guy than ken amada

imo swap jiodhain and vile

[dusky thicket]

does it scale equally?

[worldly jasper]

kanji's a bit better but down bonus is stronger in 3

so it cancels out

[dusky thicket]

gotcha

[worldly jasper]

i think give him like dekunda or smth too

[dusky thicket]

well he is single target only i suppose he should be strong here

[worldly jasper]

phys skill up 😈

i still think elec boost and elec amp are pointless on him but you'd need to get a bit funky with adding new skills

[dusky thicket]

i did change mataru to maraku but it feels a bit late

[worldly jasper]

cus he'd have half a skill set without em

[dusky thicket]

yeah lol

ran into that issue previously

[worldly jasper]

should be like mid 40s, 50 at worst

def earlier than teddie gets it imo

since teddie gets multiple

[dusky thicket]

there isnt rly a lot of room to put it unless i move his elec break to like an absurd level

[worldly jasper]

there is!

just remove mazionga.

[dusky thicket]

think I'll go with the high end

[worldly jasper]

blue wall could also be base kit tbh 😈

[dusky thicket]

throwaway skill

[worldly jasper]

especially cus two party members are weak to that

throaway skill on a character who learns like 5 things you'd wanna keep is fine imo

better than fucking elec break

[dusky thicket]

fair lol that one is pretty bad

[worldly jasper]

could give kanji summa that ailment phys 😈

[dusky thicket]

is there a boss that uses jio before naoto

i dont remember if mitsuo does

[worldly jasper]

mitsuo uses all elements, i think some mid bosses use jio, namatame uses all elements, culprit uses jio, sagiris all use jio

[dusky thicket]

there's not a lot of that if you want to keep the AOE restriction

[worldly jasper]

poison arrow truthers

these skills suck ass LMAO

[dusky thicket]

i think they kept kanji with heavy magic too bc there is no other party member with elec, unlike chie/teddie

(ignore protag)

[dusky thicket]

yeah they're something lol

i want to move elec boost somewhere else

[worldly jasper]

i think auto-raku fits kanji more than kuma too

so you could give him that

[dusky thicket]

is there anything he could get to replace elec boost?

(lvl 27)

[worldly jasper]

imo remove it entirely

amp is maybe justifiable but boost isn't especially when he has two boost weapons

[dusky thicket]

i might make it bike or late SL but rn I think there just needs to be a filler skill there

otherwise that's 25 -> 34 with no new skills

[worldly jasper]

damn p4 does not have many passives huh

[dusky thicket]

also i just realized i made yukiko fire break go from 30 to 45 lol

perhaps that is not a good idea

[worldly jasper]

make cruel attack earlier tbh

[dusky thicket]

problem is, rn she goes from mediarama 43 to agidyne 51

[worldly jasper]

protag gets it at 30

[worldly jasper]

could give her a buff/debuff

[dusky thicket]

hmm why is fatal end before cruel attack anyways

[worldly jasper]

or ailment shit

[dusky thicket]

would an ailment be relevant at lvl 43-51

otherwise maybe I could do matarunda, move that from bike ride to levels?

[worldly jasper]

probably

[dusky thicket]

matarunda is a nice skill though I kinda like that behind bike

gives you a good incentive to go for bike

[worldly jasper]

she has high af lu stat so i think she needs an ailment

[dusky thicket]

she gets valiant dance B1

lol

rage AOE

[worldly jasper]

eh it feels like she's not a good enough character without it.

kinda feels like locking integral shit behind wasted time slots

[dusky thicket]

hmmm what if we replaced her mudo/mudoon with ailments

[worldly jasper]

could work

[worldly jasper]

oh ive got it

amrita

slot that in there

[dusky thicket]

oh true

i have that at 53 rn but it could easily go down

[worldly jasper]

like if its p3 it deserves 50s or 60s but in p4 ailments are so avoidable anyways

and not rly threatening either

[dusky thicket]

I also want to move mediarahan so that teddie gets it first

bc teddie gets all other healing first

[worldly jasper]

don't think he deserves that tbh

[dusky thicket]

it's basically high magic dmg + heals or buffs + heals

[worldly jasper]

amagi should def be better at healing, this is another ken vs yukari situation where ken already has way more utility to where he really doesn't also need earlier heals

well not really

their damage is comparable until amagidhain

[dusky thicket]

then should teddie's skills be changed

[worldly jasper]

its basically slightly higher dps for a much worse kit or you take the guy with similar dps, better heals and matarukaja

[dusky thicket]

bc as it is rn, teddie gets healing skills much sooner than yukiko until mediarahan

[worldly jasper]

i just think amagi should be better at heals

teddie's kit is fine as is it just might need some level tweaks

[dusky thicket]

yukiko doesnt get mediarama until 43 teddie starts with it innate (35)

it's wild

[worldly jasper]

lmfao

p3k ken reference

[dusky thicket]

diarahan is 6 levels earlier for teddie too

[worldly jasper]

i think teddie could start with diarama and media then

idk though

amagi does also have divine grace

[dusky thicket]

yeah

[worldly jasper]

so maybe the initial mediarama isn't too relevant

[dusky thicket]

and I like where it is so that's staying unchanged

[worldly jasper]

i think mediarahan should def be earlier for amagi tho

[dusky thicket]

it's just the diarahan then

[worldly jasper]

diarahan too probs

yosuke is secretly the earliest diarahan but don't tell anyone dat

[dusky thicket]

B5

yukiko and teddie def have it before yosuke by that point lmao

you can get yosuke B5 in November at the very earliest

if you're not lvl 49 (Teddie)/lvl 54 (Yukiko) by then idk what to say

big gap between ziodyne and maziodyne for kanji....

I also neglected to change elec boost lol I forgor

perhaps elec boost -> dekunda??

dekunda and dekaja are both pretty early skills

elec boost in bike/link????

[worldly jasper]

spirit drain wayyy too late

maybe make that SL8 skill

[dusky thicket]

honestly it's probably too late for that, even

[worldly jasper]

yea but that gives more reason to at least keep it

[dusky thicket]

but oh well, a throwaway skill every so often can't hurt

[worldly jasper]

maybe valiant dance sl 8

spirit drain sl 6

[dusky thicket]

when would you do yukiko SL8

probably like sometime after the kanji fight? so lvl.... 25 or so?

[worldly jasper]

idk i got that shit early af when i played p4

for reference mitsuru gets spirit drain at level 30

so i think its kosher

[dusky thicket]

actually

what if we just ditch spirit drain altogether and add a passive to boost rage

might make the SL too focused on a single ailment tho

[worldly jasper]

oh for chie i def think rampage should be before counter btw

just cus like rn she takes a while to upgrade her damage

probs rampage at 18 and counter at 20

[worldly jasper]

feels more like a bike skill tbh

you could if you want

[dusky thicket]

honestly I think it's fine enough just bc no one else rly outdoes her in AOE dmg besides protag at that pt

[worldly jasper]

maybe

would help if it weren't too close to atom smasha tho

[dusky thicket]

it's 9 levels away rn

that seems like a reasonable gap

lvls 30-40 are rough for chie AOE lol

best move is atom smasher until lvl 48

[worldly jasper]

true but she has 10% crit aoe

so she can spam that shit realistically

[dusky thicket]

should Yukiko have Tarunda?

I put in matarunda at 49 but it feels like she should have tarunda somewhere

idk where it would go lol

[worldly jasper]

24 or smth

between agirao and recarm

[dusky thicket]

or I could make it an SL skill

[worldly jasper]

eh it feels jank to have an upgrade to an Sl skill as base kit

[dusky thicket]

I've just already added 2 new skills to Yukiko as is

at this point I'd want to replace one if possible

[worldly jasper]

yea but now she has a similar skill total to chie

so i take it as a win

[dusky thicket]

while being 11 levels higher lol

fine ill put it in

[worldly jasper]

chie only rly learns filler til amagi joins proper tho tbf

and amagi's a magic character who naturally learns more skills due to requiring boost/amp be present along with aoe for each tier

if you want to be really beast mode you could give her ragnarok too but i won't push my luck.

[dusky thicket]

maybe not right now haha

[worldly jasper]

mr. tatsumi needs more skills but its kinda hard to give him stuff without outright reworking or adding new skills

[dusky thicket]

yukiko with poison...?

[worldly jasper]

eh

i think the specific ailment is irrelevant

just her having one

[dusky thicket]

yosuke has two different ailment skills so figure maybe yukiko should get that too

so she would get rage AOE and something single target

[worldly jasper]

yeah but yosuke is jack of all trades guy

i think that's jank anyways

characters really should just stay with one ailment lol

its not intuitive to switch mid way through your kit

[dusky thicket]

well it's not like the party rly uses ailments much anyways

[worldly jasper]

could give kanji some poison jank tbf

poison arrow's got good inflict rate

[dusky thicket]

true

[worldly jasper]

but that base power is ass

[dusky thicket]

I'll leave Yukiko as full rage for now

[worldly jasper]

so it feels filler

in p3 its like 300~ power but here its like 140

maybe tempest slash on kanji at some point

[dusky thicket]

it is about on tier with kanji's early phys

so it could work as something

[worldly jasper]

im just trying to think of skills that even fit

[dusky thicket]

tbh though I kinda like kanji's SL and bike skills at this point besides maybe atom smasher in B2

[worldly jasper]

can't go too high crit cus that's chie's thing

[dusky thicket]

media as B1 is rly funny

that one feels like a throwaway

[worldly jasper]

i think he needs something better for bike 4/5

[dusky thicket]

he has power charge B5

[worldly jasper]

power charge feels like it could be bike 4 just cus fast heal doesn't fit him at all

maybe arms master bike 5

highkey

[dusky thicket]

is that even a thing in P4

oh it is

[worldly jasper]

arms master? yea its in every game

[dusky thicket]

that would be interesting

[worldly jasper]

he's naturally the tankiest character anyways

[dusky thicket]

B5 requires a lot of commitment

[worldly jasper]

so more survivability is good

although you could make it replace elec amp in base kit too

so he's like fully geared into phys

[dusky thicket]

I like that you have to go out of your way for it

[worldly jasper]

i feel like his magic being straight up shit would be more hype for him

tru

firm stance B5

[dusky thicket]

LMAO

i thought about it actually

briefly

[worldly jasper]

it could work but it feels too good compared to what everyone else gets

[dusky thicket]

maybe Naoto gets firm stance B5 lol

[worldly jasper]

especially given he already has innate resist phys

[dusky thicket]

you have to full commit to all naoto bike rides -1

[worldly jasper]

nah naoto isn't tanky at all

doesn't fit him

[dusky thicket]

I left Naoto and Yosuke for last anyways

does anyone actually use re patra

[worldly jasper]

teddie has it but its ass

[dusky thicket]

actually we already talked about teddie's mediarama

[worldly jasper]

yeah dude lemme cure down in fucking p4

what are you an idiot

this ain't p3 lil bro

[dusky thicket]

lol

maybe diarama instead?

[worldly jasper]

probably

re patra is funny filler though

oh wait highkey

since kanji doesn't have aoe phys to cure walls

[dusky thicket]

wait

teddie's link is mandatory

[worldly jasper]

maybe tetra break an unironic good filler for him

[dusky thicket]

so there are specific dates for it

where would it even go

wait teddie gets dekunda?

[worldly jasper]

replace mazionga

[dusky thicket]

huh

[worldly jasper]

yea dude

[dusky thicket]

as B1 no less lol

[worldly jasper]

teddie's basically aigis with healing spells and magic instead of phys

[dusky thicket]

traesto is funny too

who uses that one

[worldly jasper]

traesto is cool tho

don't diss it

[dusky thicket]

well i already gave dekunda to kanji anyways

[worldly jasper]

fun filler

[dusky thicket]

oh teddie gets evade phys as B5

that's funny

[worldly jasper]

ali dance

[dusky thicket]

naoto ali dance would be funny

oh i see why yukiko doesnt get amrita via leveling

[worldly jasper]

i think spell master fits her much better even if its kinda shit

[dusky thicket]

teddie gets it

[worldly jasper]

yea but she needs it more than him

he probs should have zero ailment cure tbh

[dusky thicket]

I mean naoto B5 is february at the earliest

I think whatever B5 Naoto gets should be pretty strong

[worldly jasper]

spell master could be B4 then

and then some goofy shit at B5

[dusky thicket]

should Yukiko diarahan rly be lvl 55

kinda rough to move things around here

[worldly jasper]

i think its fine

[dusky thicket]

teddie's is 49 rn lol

[worldly jasper]

could swap diarahan and matarunda if you're so inclined

so she gets late af debuff (midkari reference)

[dusky thicket]

hey unlike yukari she will put out a lot of damage now haha

54 seems alright anyways

should teddie have an AOE buff before mitsuo...

biggest nerf of all time

(was mataru)

[worldly jasper]

(yes)

he should def get mataru first

since nobody else gets that

imo mataru and maraku are fine as is, have masuku just replace his marakunda

yosuke should get masuku before teddie for sure

[dusky thicket]

I was struggling to find where he gets marakunda

it's SL

💀

you would get marakunda in October

I think Teddie is ok with having Amrita bc he gets it at lvl 61 lmao

it's so late it's not rly relevant

well, this is what I have for now. red is stuff I want changed. I think I'm done for today

I've been at this for a while

[supple oak]

stack

[dusky thicket]

it actually stacks

?

that's awesome

meovv how do you think this looks so far? better hopefully?

I mean tbh it still does change quite a few things but it's less than before lol

[supple oak]

im assuming

test ofc

endures generally stack

[supple oak]

lemme c

[worldly jasper]

passives don't stack with duplicates of themself

endure and endure from sl don't stack in 5

[supple oak]

SL endure is possibly not an endure, and in golden they do stack

[worldly jasper]

nah fire boost weapon and fire boost skill wouldn't stack

since its the same passive

if it were another slot it would

[supple oak]

its literally not

[worldly jasper]

like the invig things

[supple oak]

like its literally not same passive

[worldly jasper]

i mean post proof of elec weapon increasing kanji's damage tbh

i don't believe it

[supple oak]

i dont have to its literally not elecboost

its a different effect

weapons cant have skills the code straight up doesnt allow it

[worldly jasper]

life drain's such a meme skill idk why they gave him that shit lol

[supple oak]

i dont agree with chie and yukiko losing hama mudo

[worldly jasper]

pretty sure that's just false cus p3 lets them have boost as well and it doesn't stack

[supple oak]

golden is different

[worldly jasper]

like you can't customise any passive onto them but their boosters still use the skill one

[sleek cloud]

Wait, so does that mean that Elec Boost can stack with weapon affects?

[supple oak]

doesnt stack in p4

stacks in golden

[worldly jasper]

no p4 is built on p3 lol

[supple oak]

specifically

golden specifically is different

[supple oak]

everything stacks with a limit of 1.875

[worldly jasper]

i'll test this specifically cus i'll be annoyed til i have an answer.

[dusky thicket]

I mean if there is any character that should receive meme skills...

[supple oak]

go ahead they are literally different effects

[worldly jasper]

ive not seen proof of it stacking and if it does it'd mean kanji shit stomps the rest of the cast for magic for a long while

[supple oak]

if it ends up not stacking thats just shit code

[dusky thicket]

maybe the one that literally gets kamui miracle should be the one lol

[worldly jasper]

i feel like people would've found this out ages ago if it did just from playing le game

[supple oak]

yosuke has a wind wep too

[dusky thicket]

why? given the timing of bike rides you have Naoto by the time you get anything decent on them

[sleek cloud]

Boost + Amp would be 1.75 right

[supple oak]

most people claim there's no boost cap so i wouldnt believe anything

[supple oak]

no boost and amp already hits the limit

its multiplicative not additive

[worldly jasper]

teddie's phys still feels kinda pointless even if there's not really an objection to him having it as a concept. gigan is too late for its now nerfed stats though.

[sleek cloud]

naruhodo

[supple oak]

skills also take precedence over effects

so if you have both skills whatever equip you have is just ignored

[dusky thicket]

actually wait lu affects insta kills too right

if so, mudo does play into yukiko's lu stat lol

but I still think Chie is better off with other bike skills

[supple oak]

it feels like it's going against the character which was never the point of this mod

character balance specifically was the one thing i didn't want to change too much

only add in-betweens

or things that are desperately needed

power charge on kanji being moved to bike is technically sweet but it should be B5

i dont think arms master is relevant on someone who has 800 hp

[dusky thicket]

it was originally B5 haha. shio insisted B4

[worldly jasper]

feel like mudo on amagi still kinda encroaches on naotroll's turf a bit too much

[supple oak]

by the time you get naotroll the mudo is already gone

[worldly jasper]

oh actually for kuma

[dusky thicket]

you could make the same argument for Chie too

[dusky thicket]

well that's bc by the time you have hama mudo you have Naoto already haha

[worldly jasper]

since he already gets poison skewer, you could slot in poison arrow and eventually blight to fill his phys slots instead of gigan

it'd fit better and be stronger lol

[supple oak]

but mudo is S2??? that's during kanji dungeon what

[sleek cloud]

Could replace Hama/Mudo with the moves that half an enemies HP

[supple oak]

LOL

no

ultra trash

[worldly jasper]

i think forcing protag to be the one who does light/dark is better ngl

[supple oak]

i dont agree

[worldly jasper]

at least for early game

[dusky thicket]

oh yeah you're right I forgor

[supple oak]

i think trying to stick to the atlus intent as much as reasonable is best

[dusky thicket]

was I thinking chie

[supple oak]

hama is bike 1

[worldly jasper]

i mean amagi already gets ailments tbf and its not as if hama is something intregral to chie's kit

[supple oak]

yes

wait bufula bike 1

why even bother atp

[worldly jasper]

it fits imo

bike skills are niche gimmick shit mainly so i think tying magic chie to it works

[supple oak]

being stuck with tier 1 magic for 80% of the game is nonsense

[worldly jasper]

well you already have kuma for ice

[supple oak]

people clearly don't treat chie as phys-exclusive

[worldly jasper]

there are character who don't even get any magic at all in these games she should think herself lucky

i think just bufu and mabufu is literally fine for most of the game tbh, the damage is generally irrelevant as her phys is always stronger anyways

so generally she just uses it for weakness

which tier 1 does best

[supple oak]

she gets outclassed by consumables at that rate

which is stupid

[worldly jasper]

you have to buy the consumables though

and again kuma exists for ice