Who woulda thunk I'd also start planning out the concept for that too, huh
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AchvQ4y4DQU3vim9vASlWf5WWPKKhCrGCwzTMQ6XMPQ/edit?usp=sharing
#Persona 5 Hardtype (?)
kind rampart
As of right now, I have only covered the first two palaces and Arsene's new moveset
Either way, feel free to state your own opinions and suggestions
vague knoll
Mostly agree.
How damaging will Hama/Mudo be in relation to Kou/Ei?
Pierce is somewhat inelegant (inefficient) design, making Resist and Null redundant by endgame such that game elements exist to counter each other for no net effect. The bigger issue is that damage negation exists at all and/or enemies are stupid, such that the player can stalemate enemies and enemies can stalemate the player, violating the ideal that the every action should always move the game towards its conclusion of winning or losing the damage race.
The new Gun skills are good, since the original ones were dominant even without Boosts.
Critical Eye has many implications, potentially narrowing the variety of optimal Phys builds to those with the highest damage plus Critical Eye, ignoring innate Critical rate. It also makes superboss ||Lavenza|| phase skips more consistent with Hassou Tobi Critical on Rage.
Ignoring Critical Eye, 0% Critical rate Hassou Tobi and God's Hand, less damage on God's Hand, and more damage on Gigantomachia are valid changes.
The Archangel mini-boss having Critical Eye over Charge implies more turns, which should be good, but could you consistently negate One More by guarding? I don't remember.
The Archangel mini-boss served another purpose: an SP check; assuming you battled all enemies and hit all of their Weaknesses prior, you should have near 0 SP at Archangel, though spamming Gun saves SP. Do you plan to address this? (Not necessarily good or bad.)
Why remove the Breaks and Walls, Baisudi/Mabaisudi, and Last Stand and Adverse Resolve? Because they were inconsequential, or to remove rewards for mistakes? Is design that promotes meaningful decisions possible with these game elements?
Why not remove Almighty Boost?
Slime Mara having Diarahan and an Ice Weakness to force MC to use Ice to rush one Mara is valid.
Kamoshida changes validly incentivize MC as damage dealer.
Shiki-Ouji was a hard SP and damage type check. Does softening him make any sense?
kind rampart
Guarding does block crits
Removing the breakers and the walls is because the walls are useless and the breakers are getting replaced
Adverse Resolve was equally irrelevant
Mara getting Diarahan was partially a Nocturne reference
Also, Pierce passives are very late game compared to breakers
Hama and Mudo do weak Bless/Curse damage
Hamaon and Mudoon do heavy Bless/Curse damage
As for Almighty Boost, I decided to keep it mostly because it's obtained very late (provided you do not just buy the DLC Personas from compendium), whereas Almighty Amp and Magic Ability came from Network Fusion
Shiki got a nerf both as a boss and a Persona
Cuz Phys null this early is broken on both sides
Does that answer it, @vague knoll
Obviously, a desired change would be significantly better targeting AI on all enemies
So they aren't gonna so easily walk into your nulls
That also being said, I am also gonna try to move away from the multi-elemental boss designs
Cuz they're still somewhat present
Just nowhere near as much as they were in Persona 3 or 4
kind rampart
What would you suggest for future bosses
vague knoll
Girimehkala:
- Enemy and Persona are neutral to Gun, to give Haru more screen time
Okumura: - Waves 1-5 units Drain Phys/Gun and all elements except for their Weaknesses, out of spite
- Wave 6 no longer exclusively targets Haru with Tetrakarn, or if impossible to implement, it resists Phys, to prevent Haru Tetrakarn cheese
- Wave 7 is Weak to Nuke and Resists Psy, to parallel Haru
||Black Mask||: - Remove Maragion, so Yusuke is usable
- Add Maeigaon and Riot Gun
- Add Inferno and Fire Pierce, and only target MC if possible, due to the lore of ||Laevateinn||
- Add Oni Kagura or Wage War, for a thematic fit
These ideas are not comprehensive and there are probably better ones.
kind rampart
I see, interesting om how you want ||Akechi|| improved
kind rampart
Blackechi
HP: 5000 -> 7500
Maragion -> Maragidyne
Negative Pile -> One-Shot Kill
Tetrakarn/Makarakarn/Maeiga -> Maeigaon
Dekaja -> Phys Pierce
Laevateinn now behaves like its playable counterpart
Deathbound -> Curse Amp
Now has Riot Gun
Now has Debilitate
Fire affinity: Neutral -> Resist
Curse affinity: Resist -> Null
Bless affinity: Resist -> Neutral
vague knoll
Your Laevateinn and Maragidyne changes make more sense. I forgot Yusuke has the option of Ring of Vanity.
Why remove Tetrakarn/Makarakarn? They seem to be designed to (a) signal the player to attack with Magic/Strength, (b) telegraph the boss attacking with Strength/Magic, and (c) signal the player to perform Tetrakarn/Makarakarn in retaliation. Of course, Tetrakarn is trivialized with everyone's Gun.
Do you know if Pierce would bypass Tetrakarn/Makarakarn or remain affected by them? This matters.
Dekaja/Dekunda communicate buff/debuff states more clearly, e.g., the boss performs Dekunda and not Heat Riser if initially debuffed.
Debilitate and Riot Gun from the playable counterpart are also missing from the boss.
kind rampart
That's because Akechi's moves are telegraphed
He always will do Tetrakarn + Brave Blade or Makarakarn + a magic move
This means he only is effectively attacking once
Which prevents him from posing a threat
By replacing them with Maeigaon, it makes him attack much more aggressively
Also, Phys Pierce will go past the Karns
vague knoll
Good. Can you mod multiple instances of the same skill in the skill tree, e.g., Maeigaon?
vague knoll
Oh, I don't know how modding works here. But would he still be performing the moves in the same order, with Maeigaon in place of stuff?
vague knoll
A not-so-random thought: is it possible to give enemy Anubis all 8 single-target elements and make him guaranteed to chain One Mores (like ||the Twins||)?
kind rampart
You're suggesting 8 element anubis for the funny, don't you
valid jay
Can you make Raoul not suck
Why is Joker's ultimate persona a straight downgrade over Satanael
kind rampart
Hm, it's really just that Raoul needs an exclusive that outmatches Satanael's (which is an omni 50% boost)
kind rampart
What would you suggest
vague knoll
Relentless but x2 instead of x1.5
kind rampart
So I am thinking...
Trait - Grand Larceny: Ailment affliction rate is set to 65%, and attacking enemies with ailments makes them take double damage
vague knoll
Are you planning for this to be somehow implemented?
Extra damage on ailments also has two problems: double damage is insufficient to make casting the ailment worth it, in the absence of extra turns, and bosses that do not take ailments render the Trait redundant, while bosses that do need to be made durable enough for the difference to matter.
What about something like 100% Critical rate? This shares the problem of bosses that do not take Criticals rendering the Trait redundant, while bosses that do needing to be made durable enough for the difference to matter.
What about something like damage x1.1 per damage type in the skill list, and remove Raoul's Weakness? It might not be possible to implement.
valid jay
Trait - Grand Larceny: Ailment affliction rate is set to 65%, and attacking enem...
Trait - The Gentleman Thief
Every attack has a chance to steal an item from the enemy.
kind rampart
Away from the Raoul topic a little...what if there were Fiend superbosses?
We could even introduce David as one of them as a reference to SMT 1 and IV
vague knoll
8-Element Trumpeter when?
Realistically, Joker would be forced to Null everything while the others die from all the Weakness damage.
kind rampart
Yeah, I am prolly not fully committing to multi-element Trumpeter
Cuz it was overdone
Trumpeter does it in Nocturne, IVA, and V already
IV didn't use it and somehow made Trumpeter even worse
In case you do not know what Trumpeter does in IV
He uses Mahamaon until all targets that do not resist Light are dead, then do the same for Mamudoon, and once everyone resists them and he's used them once, that's it, he's done with them for good and you have to deal with Great Logos
If you just have Flynn and 2 demons null Light and all your vulnerable demons carry Endure and Enduring Soul, Trumpeter basically does nothing to you and you can technically beat him by Level 12
Now, those Fiends can be found either in the final Will Seed room, or in secluded sections of Mementos (the latter only opens up once you enter Qliphoth World)
So I am thinking for the first one...
Mother Harlot (Will Seed Room)
Level: 37
HP: 2800
Babylon Goblet: Heavy Almighty damage to all foes. Inflict Confuse
Lust for Death: Heavy Curse damage to all foes. Inflict Charm
Mazionga: Medium Elec damage to all foes
Ziodyne: Heavy Elec damage to 1 foe
Dekaja: Cancel all buffs on all foes
- Acts twice a turn
Resist: Gun, Bless
Null: Curse
Repel: Phys
Drain: Elec
Weak: Wind
How's that for a start
kind rampart
UPDATE: I have now done the overhauls for all forced enemies up to Shido's palace (not covering Will Seed Guardians cuz that is a pain and a half, since there is next to no info on them)
kind rampart
lel
kind rampart
Feel free to review the additions
vague knoll
Drain Elec on Kin-Ki seems appropriate given gold conducts electricity. Would have added Repel Bless over Resist Bless because gold is shiny.
Removing Wakaba's conditional multipliers is good and lowering her HP is good, but what about Abysmal Surge?
Still disappointed Okumura's units do not Drain every other element they are not Weak to.
Cognitive Haru targeting Haru with Nuke is a stroke of genius.
Megaton Raid on Shido phase 1 is a good reference to Cerberus. But why did you remove Wage War? No consistent counterplay?
kind rampart
Rage is kinda the most useless ailment of the bunch
And more often than not was a wasted turn
kind rampart
What else can we say
kind rampart
UPDATE: Yaldabaoth, Berserk Yoshizawa, and Maruki have been added (forced fights from the lab are not added yet, I will now work on adding the angels from Qliphoth World)
UPDATE: The archangels have now been added
marble spindle
Who woulda thunk I'd also start planning out the concept for that too, huh
https...
This is all very good honestly
The one thing I'm confused about regarding skill effect is the God's hand change
Isn't it now just a worse version of Brave Blade?
kind rampart
Afaik, ya
marble spindle
Nice
I like a lot of the changes though
especially making the Akechi and Maruki boss fights a lot tougher
20,000 HP Adam Kadmon sounds fun
kind rampart
Any additions you'd suggest?
marble spindle
Hmm I'm not too sure
I assume you are already adjusting party skill trees with the new skills
kind rampart
Yea, Ryuji for example will learn Fang Breaker
marble spindle
Nice nice
remote totem
UPDATE: The archangels have now been added
How much were they changed
kind rampart
Check the doc
Uriel was given Maragidyne, Inferno, and Fire Amp
Raphael was given Debilitate, some Phys stuff, and Panta Rhei
remote totem
kind rampart
Who woulda thunk I'd also start planning out the concept for that too, huh
https...
I can't pin
remote totem
Raphael was given Debilitate, some Phys stuff, and Panta Rhei
Should've been replaced with metatron smh
kind rampart
The angel fights are an SMT 1 reference
Where you faced each of them one by one if you went Chaos or Neutral
marble spindle
I think if you want to be really evil you should let all the angels act twice per turn
remote totem
Or give all the summons wall skills
kind rampart
I think if you want to be really evil you should let all the angels act twice pe...
They already do
marble spindle
They do?
Tbf I never noticed I always kill them in one turn lol
Oh yeah are you altering the will seed Fafnir fight at all?
It was kind of underwhelming in vanilla
kind rampart
Oh yeah are you altering the will seed Fafnir fight at all?
I will, but that may be hard considering I hardly find info on the bosses
remote totem
I haven't cleared that fight yet on my save
marble spindle
I haven't cleared that fight yet on my save
I'm pretty sure it is just the normal fafnir shadow with a bit of extra health
marble spindle
I will, but that may be hard considering I hardly find info on the bosses
ah i see
remote totem
Oh
marble spindle
making mods for this game seems like a daunting task
kind rampart
Particularly because miniboss info is kinda scarce
marble spindle
oof
but yeah everything in the doc seems solid. I'd love to play this eventually because the base game was always a bit pathetic difficulty wise
kind rampart
Yea, question is if I can pull it off 😂
marble spindle
i wish you luck!
vague knoll
Would Salvation on Tentacle of Healing make the tentacles a damage check like Okumura?
Would all-target Heat Riser and Checkmate be strong additions to the final boss, since you already added Heat Riser?
kind rampart
Sorta, yeah. As for all target Heat Riser...I am considering it, just not fully decided on the idea
Though the tentacles don't attack anyway
remote totem
Maybe the tendrils could do light elemental skills to try to knockdown some team members
kind rampart
That could be interesting - definitely taking fron Inanna Remnant on that one
For your info: Inanna Remnant has 2 turns. Her first one will be a Ma-dyne, then the remaining actions she takes will be the tier 1 single target attack of the same element
So, if she uses Maragidyne, all her other turns will be Agi
Btw, what do you think of the Arsene moveset
vague knoll
Makes sense and probably balanced
kind rampart
I see. What about the trait
It's still a simple trait, just more useful on him than Pinch Anchor (which is only there for his nerfed Apt Pupil in the normal game)
Anything else you wanna add to any of the overhauled enemies
vague knoll
Robin Hood with every element single-target -dyne?
Black Mask with Psycho Blast because they and Loki have stripes?
Some boss that actively targets every Weakness. Perhaps the final boss is appropriate, because he claims to know what everyone wants?
kind rampart
Defo not doing Robin Hood with all -dynes
Like, I am very much not the greatest fan of bosses that only have all -dynes
Mostly because Trumpeter did it already, 3 times on fact, and is downright boring even with Evil Melody
vague knoll
What if High Counter was 50% rate and every enemy with a Phys/Gun Weakness had it?
remote totem
How would you edit passive skills to begin with
kind rampart
Yeah, that is the big question
Technically Pierce passives can be made, since the Pierce mechanic does exist through Shinya's Rank 10 bonus
valid jay
Add me as a new Persona
kind rampart
xD
vague knoll
Make Anubis or Decarabia or some other enemy Weak to everything, with 99 Endurance and very high HP
Edit: 8-Element Ame-no-Uzume being Weak to everything would indeed make the game hard
remote totem
Now p5 is made hard
kind rampart
You know, that would make for a nice secret enemy
kind rampart
Anubis (Path of Da'at)
Level: 99
HP: 10000
Agi
Bufu
Zio
Garu
Frei
Psi
Hama
Mudo
Resist: All affinities except Almighty
Null: Bless, Curse
vague knoll
Swap Frei and Psi because it irks me.
Null Phys/Gun too.
But this. This is beautiful.
remote totem
give a da'at pixie lavenza's megidolaon
marble spindle
**Anubis (Path of Da'at)**
Level: 99
HP: 10000
Agi
Bufu
Zio
Garu
Frei
Psi
Hama ...
kouha and eiha would be better suited tbh but this is good
also pair it with a yoshitsune shadow
kind rampart
Hama/Mudo here are used cuz on Hardtype, they roll for instakill when striking weakness
At least in the concept
Yoshitsune (Path of Da'at)
Level: 99
HP: 13000
Hassou Tobi
Sword Dance
Heaven's Bow
Charge
Critical Eye
Tyrant's Mind
Ali Dance
Null: Phys, Gun
Resist: Elec
kind rampart
Hm?
marble spindle
**Yoshitsune (Path of Da'at)**
Level: 99
HP: 13000
Hassou Tobi
Sword Dance
Heav...
You could make this even worse by having another shadow which gives heat riser and charge/concentrate to the other two
but maybe that's just cruel
You could have it be something like Rangda with several repels and no weakness, and have its skills be Hyakka Ryouran, Checkmate, High Energy, Fighting Spirit, Brave Step, Ali Dance
kind rampart
Yeaaaaaa, that at this point is pure evil
vague knoll
Supports... the other two?
Yoshitsune and Anubis... in the same encounter?
Though enemies cannot Baton Pass, this still looks very tough. I love it!
kind rampart
Yeah, I am not throwing in a 3rd enemy to support, I am not THAT evil
marble spindle
It'd be funny tho you gotta admit
vague knoll
Still Weak to Phys
remote totem
drain phys passive
better than that, old concept metatron appears at da'at END section
kind rampart
Porting is possible, there are mods that do this
It's only really a question of whether or not Cherub and Seraph are present in a 3D Megaten title like, say, Dx2
(I know Cherub is)
kind rampart
Yeah, afaik, Seraph also was in Dx2
The main demon I myself like that never got a 3D model was Krishna
Still stuck in SMT IV Apocalypse ;-;
kind rampart
UPDATE: Made movesets for Ryuji, Ann, and Morgana
vague knoll
Mostly looks good.
Mostly looks good.
General:
- The proposed earlier all-target medium damage and single-target heavy damage magic skills would be significantly stronger against Okumura
- Where are the 2nd Awakening Evade Weakness passives?
- Do 2nd and 3rd Awakenings change resistances?
- Are stat growth changes planned? If so, make Makoto not beat Morgana in both Endurance and Agility.
Ryuji: - Missing single-target medium damage Phys skill without ailments seems odd
- Oni Kagura seems a bit late for the low damage
- Where is Shock Boost?
- Where is Agneyastra?
Morgana: - Sukunda seems out of place
- Where is Lucky Punch and Miracle Punch? Are they out of place due to the buffed Critical rates to Ryuji's skills etc.?
- Where is Recarm, Samarecarm, Amrita Shower, and Salvation?
- Myriad Slashes is a good reference to Zorro's Z slash
- How about Tempest Slash?
- How about Rakukaja and Marakukaja?
- How about Neo Cadenza?
- How about Divine Grace, especially stacking with Trait?
- How about Evade Phys, Angelic Grace, or Ali Dance?
- Would converting the Sleep theme from Ann be more fitting than the Confuse theme?
- Is Morgana getting a Resist Magic armor to compete with the others?
Ann: - Where is Diarama and Diarahan?
- Where is Burn Boost?
- Dekaja seems out of place
- Where is Blazing Hell?
- How about Ailment Boost?
kind rampart
No Evade passives here
And yes, resistances change accordingly
Sukunda Morgana always had, I just kept it
Dekaja was also from the original kit
Miracle Punch was removed, so I just removed Lucky Punch too
As for Recarm and Samarecarm...I hate people to some degree so none of that
Neo Cadenza also remains exclusive
Evade Phys is a high no on a party member
Burn Boost is kinda unnecessary in the grand scheme of things
And as for where Blazing Hell went...she has Inferno instead now
Divine Grace + Mona's trait would be completely unnecessary already
vague knoll
What about Ryuji? Wrote above.
kind rampart
Agneyastra and Shock Boost are gone, reduced to atoms
Also, Ryuji still has Headbutt
vague knoll
Headbutt has Forget, but not a big deal in the grand scheme of things
kind rampart
Also, surprisingly, P5 does not have a medium damage skill that fits in the proverbial "Strike" category
kind rampart
Yeah, it's quite funny
remote totem
the self destruct Black Ooze should spawn in da'at
kind rampart
Lol
marble spindle
I think Ann's Lunar Awakening skill may be a bit too powerful, especially because you can obtain it relatively early. Having high regeneration and basically immunity to ailments is very powerful
Also yeah, I think Ailment boost would be a good skill for Ann to have if you are going down the route of giving her essentially 3 different ailments she can inflict
And while Burn Boost isn't too useful, it'd help to give her more synergy with Morgana and Makoto especially early game due to technical damage
Which could lead to more divergence in team composition
kind rampart
Yeah, fair enough
Lunar Awakening I kinda took from Dx2, at least name and regeneration effect wise
marble spindle
Ah I see
marble spindle
Ohh I see
kind rampart
Yeah, sometimes when I am stumped on exclusives, I just go on the Dx2 compendium
marble spindle
Honestly I think just the regeneration is fine enough, maybe tone it down a little but I think the main strong aspect of the skill is the insta-heal from ailments
kind rampart
Yea
marble spindle
Maybe give her a heightened chance to heal from them but not guarenteed?
kind rampart
Hm, that could work
marble spindle
Otherwise i think the party changes are solid
kind rampart
What about the overhauled Arsene
marble spindle
Ryuji losing out on Shock Boost is a shame but when you see how dominant combining him, Yusuke and Makoto for the high ailment chance into phys technical is in vanilla I understand the change
marble spindle
What about the overhauled Arsene
lemme read over it again. but I like the new trait
kind rampart
Yeah, considering Pinch Anchor becomes pointless on him since Adverse Resolve is no longer a thing...yeah
Still made sure to make something simple
marble spindle
Pierce Armour on Mona is also nice utility
Making Arsene a gun and curse hybrid is nice, especially since that's how his skill tree is in P5S
kind rampart
Yea
marble spindle
Also removing the ice weakness
kind rampart
And it's a good way to showcase the new Gun skills
marble spindle
Will you change certain other personas like Raoul?
kind rampart
Yea
marble spindle
Nice nice]
kind rampart
I think Raoul could get some changes himself
And I could try to make it that he is unavailable until third semester/NG+ for lore reasons, if I felt like it
kind rampart
Yeah, I feel like it was also a good way to showcase them
I basically ported over the Gun skills from SMT IV
marble spindle
And I could try to make it that he is unavailable until third semester/NG+ for l...
If you could it'd be nice, idk how you'd code that though but maybe make him a reward for all confidants like how Telos is?
kind rampart
Reward for all confidants is a bridge too far tbh
kind rampart
Yeah, especially considering Raoul isn't the, y'know "build a Persona toolkit"
kind rampart
Yea
After you get Third Semester, I could try to make it so you get Raoul into your stock
marble spindle
But yeah Arsene seems like an actually great option here, having the best curse and gun skills and learning pierce
marble spindle
Ali Dance too
kind rampart
And it does not disincentivize you from using other Personas
marble spindle
Makes it feel rewarding for leveling him up
kind rampart
Cuz, y'know, you want coverage still
marble spindle
You could add extra incentive by making gun pierce unique to him
kind rampart
So fusing a good stock still matters
And the accuracy booster is nothing to scoff at either
kind rampart
Yeah, Beelzebub and Raoul will learn Curse Pierce
What do you think of the bosses and forced battles
marble spindle
I like most of them
I don't like the change to Shiki Ouji but it makes sense since having null phys on the player this early is too good
kind rampart
Yea
Really just limiting access to Phys Null and all was for the better
And Shiki had gotten such a nerf on SMT V
marble spindle
I really like the Maruki changes but honestly I think second phase Azathoth and Adam Kadmon should have Super Debilitate
kind rampart
So basically Checkmate?
marble spindle
Yeah
kind rampart
I could perhaps include that
marble spindle
Might waste a turn on Adam Kadmon though
Since he might use one of his turns debuffing
You could try give him three actions a turn but maybe that's too far
kind rampart
It would certainly eat into your turns
Which is something a lot of bosses do in IV Apocalypse
kind rampart
So Antichthon
marble spindle
Yeah
marble spindle
So he still gives you a beating while doing it
kind rampart
As for the other bosses, how much harder do you think they've become with the changes
marble spindle
I think Maruki is where you should just make him kinda broken since you will be level 99 by that time
marble spindle
As for the other bosses, how much harder do you think they've become with the ch...
Shido is a lot harder for the better
kind rampart
Yeah, he also has his anti-Karn script adjusted
marble spindle
even just the extra health alone changes the fight a lot
kind rampart
Because mow he will only attack into Makarakarn once, and only once
After which he'll just use Tyrant's Pierce to ignore it
marble spindle
Ah I see
kind rampart
Like, he still has the same AI normally already
marble spindle
I assume Azathoth tentacles have light damage magic simply for one more
marble spindle
They act before Maruki right?
marble spindle
Although my one worry with Maruki is that, since he focuses on bless so much, Akechi might be heavily disadvantaged
Are you gonna make him a glass cannon focused around Rebellion Blade?
kind rampart
Yeah, Mahamaon will get to roll for instakill on Akechi
But yeah, I will do a glass cannon build
marble spindle
Maybe give him his unique skill Call of Chaos from the boss fight?
kind rampart
I also will just have Rebellion Blade be innate to him and give Hereward a different exclusive
marble spindle
Oohh nice
remote totem
I don't like the change to Shiki Ouji but it makes sense since having null phys ...
Just make shiki-ouji unobtainable via recruiting
Like da at shadows
marble spindle
Any chance you will give him any amp passives
kind rampart
Yeah, cuz Rebellion Blade was screwed over by being obtained too late
And yes, he will get boosters
marble spindle
Just make shiki-ouji unobtainable via recruiting
oh that would be good
I assume just Almighty and Curse amp?
kind rampart
Almighty Boost + Curse Amp
remote totem
Did you make savage shadows impossible to run from yet
marble spindle
Akechi change that would be good is reduce his Endurance quite a bit and pump those stats into Str and Magic
marble spindle
Yusuke having higher str than him in vanilla was always odd to me
kind rampart
Also, how much more frustrating is the Okumura fight now :3
marble spindle
lemme check!
kind rampart
Considering I buffed all Corporobos
marble spindle
I kinda wish you kept the resistances the bots had lol
But ig it makes sense to remove them for party variety
so there isn't a strict meta for Okumura
kind rampart
Yeah, and I had increased their HP, so...
remote totem
make them have a different weakness each instead of each wave being only weak to the same 2 elements
marble spindle
Even if the party version doesn't
marble spindle
make them have a different weakness each instead of each wave being only weak to...
better yet: no weakness
marble spindle
actually making the last wave neutral to all sounds cool
marble spindle
how was wakaba changed
just health nerfed but no more damage modifiers
imo she should have wind pierce though
remote totem
actually making the last wave neutral to all sounds cool
they should endure their first time reaching 0 hp and then start spamming mamudoon 
marble spindle
she is the easiest boss in the vanilla because all you need is repel phys and wind to completely neutralise her
marble spindle
they should endure their first time reaching 0 hp and then start spamming mamudo...
we are evil jajajaj
@kind rampart I like the Kaneshiro changes as well
Making him curse based makes more sense and means no party member resists him
the Kamoshida change confuses me though
it kind of makes stealing the crown obsolete
may as well just have the fourth member attack
him resisting fire also makes gun pretty useless
the resist phys thing is fine enough though
kind rampart
Yea, and he had Eiga in vanilla
marble spindle
you could maybe even try what reimagined did and just, give kamoshida an actual weakness only Joker can exploit
remote totem
what if yaldabaoth resisted almighty
kind rampart
they should endure their first time reaching 0 hp and then start spamming mamudo...
Too bad P5 Hardtype makes Mamudoon into Maeigaon if it doesn't proc instakill
marble spindle
based though
kind rampart
how was wakaba changed
She effectively didn't get changed
marble spindle
what if yaldabaoth resisted almighty
Like Lavenza does?
kind rampart
Since while her HP was lowered, her Phys/Gun "weaknesses" were also removed
remote totem
visually
marble spindle
Also wait do the robots in Okumura fight resist ailments
remote totem
making him resist it is as easy as changing one dropdown option while modding
marble spindle
It makes sense somewhat but keep in mind, all of Jokers best personas are almighty type
remote totem
exactly
marble spindle
so it kind of gives Lucifer and Satan no purpose to prepare for
remote totem
that's why he should resist or null it
remote totem
specially the weapons
marble spindle
@kind rampart I think the Okumura fight looks good but I think the cognitive Haru change is a bit strange narrative wise
remote totem
actually what if the weapons had a weakness to it so you could baton pass in the fight
marble spindle
Maybe give her like 5k HP and just make her use selfless devotion when below 1k
remote totem
except during divine apex
marble spindle
actually what if the weapons had a weakness to it so you could baton pass in the...
idk Maruki has the same gimmick so I think its better to keep it unique to him
kind rampart
<@456226577798135808> I think the Okumura fight looks good but I think the cogni...
There is a problem with the Cognitive Haru phase
She did basically nothing
And was basically the notification of "you won, now guard for 3 turns"
marble spindle
I like her using magic but I think selfless devotion should be procked by like dealing enough damage to her
kind rampart
There we go
marble spindle
since the characters bring up in story about what the move implied about how Okumura thinks of Haru
kind rampart
Adjusted Selfless Devotion trigger
marble spindle
ah nice
kind rampart
Now it only triggers when she's on death's door
kind rampart
I already have it at 1800
In a multi-wave fight where you just got through an enemy with 4500 HP
marble spindle
she's immune to crits and has no weakness right?
kind rampart
Yup, no weakness
remote totem
it should still be turn based but more hp left = more base power for selfless devotion
kind rampart
And is immune to Phys, flat out
marble spindle
ah okay then the number is fair
marble spindle
it should still be turn based but more hp left = more base power for selfless de...
so it just party wipes if she is too high?
remote totem
yes
kind rampart
And also uses Nuke skills to target Haru's weakness
remote totem
did the reaper get changed
kind rampart
So far, not yet, I should prolly do it
Cuz he needs to have his skillset adjusted one way or another cuz Break skills got removed
remote totem
make him higher level, give him heat riser and actually weakness chain properly
marble spindle
Give him phys pierce and Agneystra
Is there a limit to how many skills an enemy can have like with players
kind rampart
Alright, Reaper changed
I decided to abandon the whole "all elements" shtick
And now he just hits you with obscenely strengthened Curse skills
And he even got himself an exclusive
He also does still have Bufudyne and Psiodyne, both with their Amps
remote totem
demonic decree is good now?
kind rampart
demonic decree is good now?
Yup
remote totem
what did you make the base power
kind rampart
It's Severe Curse damage to 1 foe now
Base power I'd say would be on par with the rest of the severe tier skills from the overhauled skills mod Patchier showed me
kind rampart
I know, hence why I mentioned the mod Patchier gave me
https://gamebanana.com/mods/417861 This one
marble spindle
so is the ramping between -dynes and tier fours the same as like agi to agilao
kind rampart
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UCJG5HHBTCdZEfaC0eBlzuUm0SIkdsTV7YgKTUUJdgY/edit#gid=393950182 I'll be using this spreadsheet as a reference
remote totem
https://gamebanana.com/mods/417861 This one
this font is really ugly
marble spindle
it's the font you get when inputting english letters in the JP version
remote totem
this font is really ugly
kind rampart
Either way, you get the idea
kind rampart
Reaper's exclusive skill - Death’s Call: Severe Curse damage to all foes. 80% chance of instakill when striking weakness
kind rampart
Did you add the reaper changes to the spreadsheet?
They are in the doc now
marble spindle
rip violet lmao
kind rampart
rip violet lmao
And just a reminder, this is double boosted and pierces resistances
marble spindle
he is gonna obliterate lol
kind rampart
Yea, that will stop low level Reaper farming lel
I also technically consider Reaper a Fiend, so I gave him Soul Drain
marble spindle
So does he have Ice and Psy skills as well?
kind rampart
Yea, both Amped
marble spindle
Ohh
kind rampart
He also comes with Lullaby for some Technicals off of that
marble spindle
Just Ma-dyne or the tier four
kind rampart
Just Ma-dyne or the tier four
Just the -dyne
marble spindle
I see
tier four would be cool for the unique animation but i get it for balance reasons lol
Psycho Force would fit the theme
kind rampart
Adjusted
kind rampart
Ya
marble spindle
the drain is good
are you giving Lavaeitann crit chance or is it just super high phys damage
kind rampart
Just super high Phys damage
marble spindle
Ah I see
Oh yeah on the topic of the reaper
You could be really mean and give him Thanatos' Door of Hades
For unblockable instakills
The damage on that skill is kinda low though
And is there anything to stop you cheesing Sae's last phase with karns and ointments?
remote totem
megidolaon
marble spindle
if she repels into herself with like two or more people it will kill her regardless
so she doesn't get a chance to do the turn
kind rampart
There we go
She now does Makara Break if she detects Makarakarn and now acts twice a turn
remote totem
makara break sucks!!!
kind rampart
Yes, when the player has it
marble spindle
ah i see
remote totem
weakness chain anubis da'at
remote totem
make die for me into a multi hit curse skill
marble spindle
You could make a goofy unique option
kind rampart
Die for Me will do severe Curse damage to all foes with 65% chance of instakill on hitting weakness (instakill does not proc on bosses, ofc)
marble spindle
Ah I seed
remote totem
savage shadows immune
marble spindle
I assume weaker than Demonic Decree cus multi target?
remote totem
so that IK still stays being bad
kind rampart
Die for Me will do severe Curse damage to all foes with 65% chance of instakill ...
This also applies to Samsara, just with Bless
marble spindle
Samsara might be too good for how early you get it
remote totem
I assume weaker than Demonic Decree cus multi target?
it should be better, its a max arcana persona
kind rampart
so that IK still stays being bad
I mean, Hama and Mudo are changed to proc instakill roll on hitting weakness specifically
Like how they did in SMT V
marble spindle
it should be better, its a max arcana persona
but then that makes other curse options like Arsene and Beelzebub outclassed
remote totem
arsene shouldn't be good
marble spindle
Beelzebub is arguably harder to obtain and so is high level Arsene
remote totem
that only makes it like p4g izanagi only
kind rampart
Beelzebub will gain Death Flies, no worries
marble spindle
Oh okay then fair
kind rampart
What, you thought I wasn't gonna give Death Flies to Beelzebub?
I already was planning to do so for the concepts of P3 and P4 Hardtype
marble spindle
Ah I see
remote totem
Beelzebub is arguably harder to obtain and so is high level Arsene
beelzebub because you have to do worst confidant
marble spindle
I remember Beelzebub's only good quality in P3 was Victory Cry
so true tho
Also will you give Shiva a variation of Pralaya?
marble spindle
Ohh nice
kind rampart
Jack Frost will get Jack Bufula, Shiva will get Tandava, so on and so forth
marble spindle
Is Jack Bufula just a better Bufula
remote totem
jack frost will be max arcana?
kind rampart
No
But he still will get an exclusive
Not just max Arcana Personas will get the luxury
kind rampart
Sadly Shiki never got an exclusive in anything
kind rampart
Does Black Frost get an exclusive
Yup. His skill from Dx2, "Go to Hell"
marble spindle
What does it do?
remote totem
if not I have a goofy idea for one
tell me more
kind rampart
Inflicts Dark (Magic) damage with 110 power on All Enemies with a 80% chance to inflict Curse. This skill has the Dark Pierce effect.
This is the description
marble spindle
<:naosmiley:1015095674917888092> tell me more
Make it do one hit of heavy ice and another hit of heavy fire
since you need both jack frost and pyro jack for him
would encourage making a multi element build
remote totem
Sadly Shiki never got an exclusive in anything
then invent one!!!
marble spindle
Can Anubis learn 8 element at level 99
marble spindle
Inflicts Dark (Magic) damage with 110 power on All Enemies with a 80% chance to ...
Cool skill but it might not fight his P5R skillset
Unless you give him Curse Amp too
kind rampart
He will get that, ofc, or alternatively, I can always adjust it a bit
Like I usually do in such situations
marble spindle
I see
Also question
Are Eigaon and Kougaon simply outclassed by Hamaon and Mudoon or do have higher damage
kind rampart
Eigaon and Kougaon will have a higher base power
remote totem
shiki ouji almighty-gun exclusive 😡
marble spindle
Is Shiki Ouji a favourite of yours?
marble spindle
truth
marble spindle
@kind rampart the new Kamoshida changes look good, but I think you should raise his health back up perhaps if giving him a weakness
kind rampart
There we go
kind rampart
I do advise you check out the ones I did for P4 and P3
marble spindle
Are there chats for them here?
kind rampart
They have their own threads here
visual berry
I’m not sure if this is possible. But i have a suggestion: if your planning on doing something with the fiends do you think it’s possible to give them a unique skill? (Like Matador’s Red Capote, Daisoujou’s Meditation, etc)
The way Red Capote could work is by making it into a buffed Sukukaja that you could only apply to yourself making and make it work by increasing it’s effect by a little and slightly increasing its turns, but to compensate make it cost a bit more SP
vague knoll
Or Red Capote could simply be Sukukaja + Masukunda and potentially lasting longer
valid jay
or a party-wide instakill
steep cove
pierce almighty to make bosses that resist almighty easier
valid jay
I think Pierce Almighty should be exclusive to the most powerful deities
Messiah, Satan, Lucifer, Vishnu, etc
visual berry
Honestly i think it would probably fit Lucifer the best
kind rampart
I’m not sure if this is possible. But i have a suggestion: if your planning on d...
That is my intent
visual berry
That is my intent
Oh that’s great to hear! Also will the fiend bosses be in order from easy to hardest? (Like going from Matador all the way to Trumpeter)
kind rampart
Not in their will seed versions
But will go from David to Trumpeter on Path of Da'at
vague knoll
Almighty resistance would defeat the purpose of Almighty, and should be removed entirely or at worst relegated to specific puzzle bosses like ||Lavenza|| phases. Reimagined extensively used Almighty resistance and the second Almighty damage type that was already in the game's code, because its goal is to explore the breadth and limits of the system, but your goal of a difficulty mod should be different.
Even if Almighty resistance were significant, Almighty Pierce would defeat the purpose of Almighty resistance, resulting in inefficient development.
Though Nulls and Pierces for the other damage types also result in inefficient development, if one damage type is free from resistances and Pierces, it should be Almighty.
vague knoll
What purpose does Almighty resist serve on Yaldy, or what incentive is created by his new resistances?
(Could you also pin the Google Doc link to save us from scrolling up every time?)
kind rampart
Who woulda thunk I'd also start planning out the concept for that too, huh
https...
Best I can do is this
kind rampart
UPDATE: All other party members have their new skillsets
marble spindle
Reading through the changes right now, a couple take aways:
-Ryuji having no real multi-target physical option for end game feels a bit strange, kind of crippling him compared to the other phys and gun attackers in late game against multiple shadows. I assume this is intentional?
-Ryuji baring physical pierce as opposed to Yusuke seems odd if basing their kits around their personalities. Ryuji is a lot more brash where as Yusuke is a more precise individual, which is reflected in their vanilla movesets with Ryuji having higher damage skills but Yusuke having way higher agility and crit rates. Would it not make more sense to lend Yusuke pierce skills while giving Ryuji stronger baseline options?
-Vorpal Blade seems like a weird choice for Yusuke's penultimate skill if left unchanged, as its damage is rather low. It would be made indirectly better due to Ryuji lacking Agneystra here, but it still would feel weak compared to both of their single-target options, so I doubt it'd get much use. Perhaps you could change the skill to have a higher base power or maybe even hit twice?
-Yusuke having an ice skill based around his far higher stats is a nice change, although perhaps making it strictly scale based on his agility could fill a cooler niche and make it more unique, especially given how his ultimate gun will buff his agility massively. Keeping the strength scaling works just as well, though.
-Makoto's Deadly Impulse skill is quite confusing to me. Would this either not end up being strictly better than her Atomic Flare, or just become redundant if weaker? I think it'd be better to make it fill more of a niche somehow, perhaps making it multi-target or giving it pierce with lower damage output than Mafreidyne?
-Haru no longer having heat riser helps to not make her kit feel too crowded with too many different utilities and damage types. Good change.
-Dizzy helps to give her an innate technical option from her gun skills, another good change for her.
kind rampart
Ryuji kinda always was single target in the Phys department, only deviating slightly for 2 skills in particular. Also, Ryuji has Phys Pierce
marble spindle
-Haru's new Mistress of the Underworld just seems strictly better than Mapsiodyne in every way, even though it could technically be obtained earlier, although I assume it'd have a lower base power. The ailment chance is useful for both her and the rest of the party so I like the idea, but perhaps lower the damage somewhat or make it locked before a certain level?
-Why nerf Prince Akechi's almighty damage?
-Why lock Black Akechi's Riot Gun at level 91? Would it not make sense to have it unlock before Curse Pierce?
-I like the design choice to give Akechi a lot of different options, almost too much, to where if you wished to truly specialise in something, you may have to forego something else. Makes him feel more customisable and like you actually need to make a "build" for him.
-Strength-based curse on him is a good idea and making it multi-target gives it a seperate use case to demonic decree.
-I'm confused by the description of Hereward's new skill. How exactly will it work?
-Is Almighty amp not on his kit due to it being too powerful?
-I like the change of making Yoshizawa more of a support character, with both healing and buffs.
-Both of her new skills seem extremely powerful, and are probably too strong compared to the other phys attackers. Masquerade especially makes her an almost must-pick in the final fight due to its sheer damage far outclassing Yusuke's or perhaps even Akechi's, while synergising her with Ryuji's trait and party-wide charge would make her damage extremely explosive and wouldn't fit her much as a support-oriented option.
kind rampart
Basically, the way Desperate Shot works is that it does more damage the higher the Curse resistance of his target
Almighty Amp was in general removed
Which is why Blackechi doesn't have it
marble spindle
Ah I see
So I imagine you will make all forms of Maruki resistance to or even null curse so to make Akechi even more powerful?
kind rampart
Yea
remote totem
Did the tentacles end up doing the light versions of magic skills
marble spindle
Yeah
remote totem
it could even be the item versions, 50 fixed damage
its only to knock down after all
remote totem
isn't that good
they could also be megido bombs so they do really tiny almighty damage
marble spindle
It'd give no counter play and would harm Akechi a lot as a glass cannon
remote totem
oh yeah shield tendril is also really stupid as a trait but its a very fun concept
just null completely to avoid like
makarakarn strats
if its not already all almighty attacks from azathoth of course
marble spindle
Also @kind rampart is there any plan to give Akechi his Call of Chaos skill?
kind rampart
No
marble spindle
I see
vague knoll
Yusuke:
- Ice Boost and Ice Amp are good
- Critical Eye is good
- Why Diamond Dust? Yusuke is supposed to be a better mage than Ryuji?
- What does Kusanagi scaling with Agility mean in terms of the damage formula? Did you pull this from Dx2?
- How about Freeze Boost?
- How about Tetrakarn as the upgrade for High Counter? I know Haru still has it
Makoto: - Nerf stats so that she does not have both higher Endurance and Agility than Morgana
- Makajam is somehow spelt Makajama in P5
- Forget Boost and Makajamaon is good
- Make sure to alter enemy resistances such that Forget is less dominant ... how do you even balance ailments when there are so many of them that do no damage and effectively grant a second win condition to the damage race?
- Removing Diarama and Diarahan is good for reducing clutter
- Why late Energy Shower?
- Why late Defense Master, and not Yusuke's Speed Master?
- Is Pierce on the new skill redundant with Nuke Pierce?
Haru: - Where is Amrita Shower?
Akechi: - Bless Boost and Curse Boost are good
- Critical Eye is good
- Where is Mamudoon?
- Where is Megidolaon? Is it because nobody levels him up to here anyway?
- Heat Riser over Debilitate is thematically appropriate, but why not have it replace Debilitate in both forms for consistency and to emphasize self-sufficiency, or is it to contrast with the final character?
- How about Diarahan over Recarm to emphasize self-sufficiency, in both forms?
- Demonic Decree, Curse Boost, and Curse Amp is good
Kasumi: - Bless Boost is good
- So that is where Morgana's Salvation went ... Phys Healer archetype is good
kind rampart
Mamudoon kinda is replaced by his new exclusive - Devil's Fuge
Which is basically Strength-based Mamudoon
Also, yes, Princekechi does not have Megidolaon cuz 99% of people do not level him that high
And yes, I technically did take Kusanagi from Dx2, as usual, just with some changes since Kusanagi was a Force skill in Dx2
Also, I gave Yusuke Diamond Dust because every party member would get the single target severe magic skill of whichever element they had
And yes, Salvation went to Sumi
As for Amrita Shower...no Amrita Shower for you 🙂
vague knoll
Auto mod is misinterpreting Ann's new ailment category and the strongest Bless skill out of context
valid jay
Have a new skill
Riot Gun Amp
Only works on Riot Gun
kind rampart
No
marble spindle
Looking through the party member changes again and I still feel as though Sumire is too strong compared to other options:
-She simply outclasses Morgana in every regard. Better support, far better physical and her magic really isn't too far behind at all, perhaps even better with her optimal weapon. I feel like Morgana would either need his Salvation back or perhaps Messiah's exclusive Oratorio to even compete with her.
-Her physical prowess can potentially scale above the entire party if she lands even 3 hits with masquerade, and her AoE physical is by far the best in the whole party. Her main limiter when compared to Ryuji is a lack of physical pierce, but this won't even effect Masquerade in the final fight due to Maruki being neutral to physical. If her AoE physical is going to continue to be so dominant, I feel as though Yusuke should also get a stronger physical option to compete, and Masquerade in general needs to be toned down to not obliterate all other physical options.
-Sumire also has Ali Dance, perhaps the best defensive skill in the game, making her a defacto great character regardless of her damage options when she has healing. I don't think Morgana or Makoto can compete with the support she supplies given her increased survivability, so I think they'd need a defensive skill at high levels or her Ali Dance should be nerfed to Angelic Grace.
She would simply be too dominant of a character as it stands and would be a must-pick for the final boss, especially given she inherently synergises with Ryuji given she is another physical attacker.
I do like the conversion of Sumire into more of a support-hybrid character, though, as her direction in vanilla felt a little aimless as just another physical attacker with magic outclassed by Ann and Makoto
kind rampart
Yea, I maaaaaay have overdone it with Sumi a bit
Anyway, Mercurius now has a new exclusive, and Sumi got nerfs to her exclusives and had Ali Dance replaced
marble spindle
The new Morgana exclusive is great!
It'd actually synergise well with his trait while still not totally replacing Mediarahan in all circumstances
I assume the healing is equal to Mediarama's like how Yosuke's exclusive from P4G was?
kind rampart
Yea
marble spindle
Like the new changes a lot
Sumi being an all arounder character fits her best
I didn't notice before but I like the conversion of Robin Hood to have gun skills. it makes more sense given his design and works as more of a precursor to Loki's moveset
The inclusion of Megido on him does seem a little odd though due to it generally just not being too useful
Quick question though, will character resistances be buffed when they received a third awakening like in P4G, or will they stay the same as second evolution?
kind rampart
Megido was added there as a slight nerf
Normally he starts with Megidola through Robin Hood
But I figured I'll keep Megidola away before Level 55-60
vague knoll
Anyway, Mercurius now has a new exclusive, and Sumi got nerfs to her exclusives ...
Morgana changes are appreciated, but make sure mobs cannot be cleared in one hit such that Morgana's lifesteal becomes inferior.
Sumi still looks a bit strong with her unique skills.
kind rampart
Quick question though, will character resistances be buffed when they received a...
They already do normally
But no one really documents it
toxic mirage
Could this also include making the (lvl 99) challenge battles against Makoto Yuki and Yu Narukami actually challenging
I personally think it would be funny if Makoto just opened with concentrate into 9999 megidolaon (to simulate the armageddon fusion spell) and Yu opened with concentrate myriad truths
like challenging on the level of lavenza
they are the previous protags and i feel like they should have access to the bs busted persona builds joker can make
enduring soul etc
also they should get the first turn
kind rampart
There we go
Btw, exclusives I will work on likely tommorow
Cuz Makoto will get an exclusive that is used by Odin
kind rampart
What would you suggest for the FIend superbosses? We already discussed Mother Harlot and Matador btw
valid jay
David, The Riders, Hell Biker
kind rampart
That we know, but what about the movesets
remote totem
if freikugel is so good where is psikugel
remote totem
how will the exclusive moves have their own animations
valid jay
you will make them
kind rampart
Also Krisha should be a superboss
He'll also be the new Rank 10 Fool Persona
remote totem
you will make them
has that been figured out already for modding
valid jay
irrelevant
you will make them
kind rampart
So far, I have yet to see anyone make custom attack animations
And in fairness, Krishna's exclusives are support/ailment based
Namely his 2 Ragas
remote totem
reskinned tarukaja
kind rampart
Venomous Raga in IVA debuffs Attack by 2 levels while inflicting Nerve ailments, and Dream Raga debuffs Defense by 2 levels while inflicting Mind ailments
If no ailments can be inflicted, Krishna does not lose press turns from hitting ailment nulls, and the debuffs still apply as normal
remote totem
reskinned tarunda
kind rampart
Anyway, back to the Fiends
marble spindle
I can't make any suggestions because I haven't played Nocturne fully lol
Will the Fiends be replacing Will Seed encounters?
kind rampart
Not really
But they will be present once you take the last one
Where you'd get a warning prompt that there is a dangerous enemy nearby and that you should consider getting out
Or, in the case of the Path of Da'at versions, they'd be in specific parts of each floor
kind rampart
I can't make any suggestions because I haven't played Nocturne fully lol
I should add, their SMT V versions are near identical to the Nocturne versions
So if you fought them in V, you pretty much will know almost exactly how they'd work in Nocturne
marble spindle
Nocturne is my first mainline and I've been too busy to finish it lol
kind rampart
I see
So, let me think of how Daisoujou would work (I'd also make them lower level on Will Seed rooms, and also have them without their exclusives)
(They'd get the exclusives in Path of Da'at)
Daisoujou (Madarame's Palace)
Level: 28
Mahama
Mamudo
Energy Drain
Brain Jack
Makajamaon
Ailment Boost
Bless Boost
Curse Boost
Null: Bless, Curse
Weak: Gun, Fire
remote totem
why not samsara
kind rampart
Samsara would be changed to be a non-exclusive, and do the following: Severe Bless damage to all foes. 70% chance of instakill when striking weakness
kind rampart
Daisoujou's new exclusive(s) would be Preach and Meditation
remote totem
the point of da'at enemies here is they have to be really hard or just bs right
kind rampart
White Rider (Kaneshiro's Palace)
Level: 36
Ziodyne
Tanthlum Shot
Blast Arrow
Kougaon
Tarukaja
Resist: Bless
Drain: Elec
Weak: Wind
kind rampart
Yup, they'll be pretty high level for you in the will seed room
remote totem
ah
i think it'd be funny if in da'at some enemy had their turn be first and start with agneyastra always
or a high crit move
kind rampart
Pale Rider (Futaba's Palace)
Level: 42
Garudyne
Heat Wave
Mudoon
Matarunda
Lullaby
Ominous Words
Ailment Boost
Drain: Wind, Dark
Weak: Elec
kind rampart
Bad habit
remote totem
ah
kind rampart
Cuz Wind and Force are interchangeable these days
Black Rider (Okumura's Palace)
Level: 51
Bufudyne
Mabufula
Famine's Scream
Energy Drain
Megidola
Resist: Dark
Repel: Ice
Weak: Fire
Matador (Sae's Palace)
Level: 58
Magarudyne
Agneyastra
Megaton Raid
Sukukaja
Critical Eye
Wind Amp
Resist: Phys, Curse
Drain: Wind
Weak: Elec
kind rampart
So far, how are they
marble spindle
**Daisoujou (Madarame's Palace)**
Level: 28
Mahama
Mamudo
Energy Drain
Brain Ja...
Weakness to gun makes him far too vulnerable, and I don't think he has enough damage. Bless and Curse boost would make him more threatening
marble spindle
**Black Rider (Okumura's Palace)**
Level: 51
Bufudyne
Mabufula
Famine's Scream
...
I think having both spirit and life drain is a redundancy especially with how weak those skills are, so you'd probably need to combine them while also raising the values for both the health and sp absorption
kind rampart
Here is a thought
marble spindle
It's too weak for a level 51 enemy
kind rampart
Life/Spirit Drain won't do a set amount
But rather actually fucking scale off Magic like they're supposed to do
marble spindle
Just make it normal almighty?
I still think you should combine them into one skill like it is in Nocturne
kind rampart
*Whoever decided Spirit Drain should only effectively regen 7 SP, I wish you a very pleasant 'go fuck yourself'
marble spindle
At least for bosses
kind rampart
I still think you should combine them into one skill like it is in Nocturne
The combined version is Energy Drain
Cuz otherwise, in Nocturne, you have Mana Drain and Deathtouch
marble spindle
Why not give that to Black Rider?
kind rampart
There we go
marble spindle
I like how Matador looks also, very strong moveset
Perhaps lend him wind boost or even amp though?
Considering he is only a couple levels higher than Black Rider
Overall though i think they seem solid
valid jay
Wait so
Just to get the final will seed, we have to fight the normal guardian AND a fiend?
That's pretty brutal
visual berry
**Matador (Sae's Palace)**
Level: 58
Magarudyne
Agneyastra
Megaton Raid
Sukukaj...
Wait for Matador, are you planning on giving him his unique Red Capote skill?
kind rampart
Yeah, they get their exclusives on Path of Da'at
kind rampart
Just to get the final will seed, we have to fight the normal guardian AND a fien...
The Fiend is optional
You'll get a warning after taking the last one, and if you ignore it, you face the Fiend
valid jay
If you heed the warning, do you leave behind the will seed
kind rampart
Yeah, if you heed the warning, you'll leave the room (and mind you, you will get it AFTER taking the last seed)
kind rampart
Red Rider (Shido's Palace)
Level: 70
Inferno
Maragidyne
Mind Slice
Bloodbath
Megaton Raid
Fire Amp
Null: Gun
Repel: Fire, Light
Weak: Ice
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UPDATE: All the Path of Da'at Fiends have been made
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UPDATE: Various exclusives have been made
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Yea, the doc now has info on the Fiends as well as various exclusives
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We need someone to pin the links
It's quite buried
here it is for anyone interested
btwe
I LOVE that you removed break skills
I never ever used them
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giving the bosses weaknesses are so nice
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finally, Kamoshida won't take a thousand damn hours to finish
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Overall, how is each boss, and what critique would you have for them
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Kamoshida: omg please just die already you are literally a tutorial boss
Madarame: if you revive that painting one more time I'm going to burn your house down with you in it
Kaneshiro: Why are your minions harder to kill than you?
Sphinx: No real complaints on this one, actually seems okay to me
Okumura: I think everyone already knows the problems with this one.
Sae: No complaints, pretty fair boss fight. Might actually be a bit easy, tbh.
Shido: The ultimate SP waster. Not a big fan of being forced into SP Adhesives just to not fall apart here.
||Maruki||: Initial phase is good. Final phase is an interactive cutscene.
kind rampart
What about their Hardtype versions
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Reading them now
Kamoshida having a weakness and not being totally worthless after losing the crown is a good tradeoff, although it makes having Angel/Archangel a requirement.
Do we get One Mores from boss weaknesses?
kind rampart
Yes
Cuz, afaik, they can still be technically downed
It's just that it never comes to pass because of their lack of weakness and crit immunity
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Yea, Madarame now clears the ailments of the weakened fakes
And also comes with Dekunda
And his Madara-Megido now does more than tickle your nose
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he's already a pretty annoying boss
Kaneshiro is buffed, which is probably overall good. He was too weak.
Wakaba not taking a thousand years to kill is good
kind rampart
Yea, Kaneshiro now actually fights back after losing the bodygaurds
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Oh, you didn't change Okumura himself. Interesting.
Cognitive Haru is a bigger threat though
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Yea, Okumura himself didn't even really need to change up
He still just does Rakukaja and Marakunda
The only addition is that he will clear Tetrakarn off of you to make sure the Executive Director can hit you
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Yup, and it also means that she doesn't waste a turn to clear your Makarakarn
Since she uses Makarabreak to remove it if she ever got snagged by it once and you use it again
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buffing both forms of a akechi to this extent makes this pretty miserable
kind rampart
Oh?
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You actually can rest in between Ongyo-ki and Akechi
Since Akechi you fight after you walk out of the room with Ongyo-ki in it, iirc
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I'm also judging this from the perspective of someone who wants to clear the palace in a single infiltration
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That aside, how's Akechi himself
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Which is almost necessary in Royal
Akechi himself is a proper dual-form boss
His forms actually act differently than one another
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Yea
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That's a good change
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And Heaven's Bow actually makes sense on Robin Hood
Cuz, y'know, Robin Hood has a bow
Yea, there were very few Gun skills in P5R, so I just added the ones from SMT IV
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And instead of just Megidolaon spam in response to Karns, he'll instead use a skill that makes him pierce your resistances
And he always consistently will act 4 times a turn for the fight after using Tyrant's Glare
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see idk if I like that, because you have to fight him with just joker at a certain point
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Cuz beforehand, it only lasted for one cycle, and it always had a telegraphed attack pattern that was easily countered
That said, he doesn't have much in the way of you bringing the resistances
His new Tyrant's Pierce will only be used as an anti-karn measure
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And I did that because Megidolaon in response to karns brings me PTSD flashbacks of Beelzebub in IV
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Honestly, the karns were never really a fun tool
They were "balanced" in IV Apocalypse
Even then bosses will start bypassing them eventually
Mitra-Buddha will use Tetrabreak, Inanna will use Makarabreak, Samyaza spams Almighty, and Belial breaks an otherwise established rule in his AI
So yea, I basically went that route
Anyway, onward to the next bosses, yes?
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Yup, he actually is a threatening boss now
And the limbs actually can do more than tickle you
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The Berserk bosses are interesting. I'm not sure why one is weak to curse and the other isn't.
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And Yaldy himself is part of the boss group I call "endgame Light nukers", because in P4 Hardtype, I had made 3 bosses specialize in Light
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The Berserk bosses are interesting. I'm not sure why one is weak to curse and th...
The first one is basically just Yoshizawa, really, the name is a bit of a lie from the game
But the second one is Cendrillon actually going berserk and being assisted by ||Maruki||
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So Maruki is just covering its weakness?
Also, Maruki's tentacles do something
That's good
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So Maruki is just covering its weakness?
Yea, basically
On top of constantly summoning Byakhees
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Don't be weak to bless when fighting Azathoth
that is all
The Reaper...
Death’s Call
That's all I'm going to say
Make sure Joker nulls curse before you fight the Reaper
Soul Drain is actually good
Good
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Also, Sumi is just gonna insta die to Death's Call lel
Not only is it double boosted and pierces, if it hits a weakness, it's basically an instakill on whoever has the weakness
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The Bonus Bosses have movesets that make sense
Why were they not using the best of the best
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Yea, as far as the Fiends go, I basically went with combinations of the Nocturne and IV Apocalypse movesets
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Why were they not using the best of the best
How so
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How so
I mean they were using things like Maziodyne instead of Thunder Reign
They should be using the most powerful moves they can
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Yea, I corrected that for the protags
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Now then, how are the party members
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So
Ryuji is a tad confused. Is he a physical attacker or the dedicated lightning man?
He really needs to lean into one or the other.
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Yea, to be fair, there are no Phys boosters so he isn't fighting over slots too much
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That's not your fault, BTW. Atlus did it to him too.
Ann
Lunar Awakening: Before Ann’s turn, heal 15% of HP and have high chance of recovering from ailments.
I would replace HP with SP. She is THE squishy mage.
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There we go
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Yusuke: Kusanagi: Heavy Agility-based Ice damage to 1 foe. Very high chance to inflict Freeze
This right here is what he should have had before.
Synthesis of his two best things.
He's FAST, boi
His Gorukichi also makes him actually useful in a party slot.
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Yea, surprised they never made Agility-scaling skills ever since Devil Survivor 2
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So, this one is curious
Deadly Impulse: Weak Nuke damage to all foes 1-3x. 1.3x damage if the opponent is Downed, pierces resistances
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Yea, I was kinda struggling to figure something out
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The problem is that
It's weak, even at 3x it won't outperform things like Atomic Flare
And it pierces, but she also learns pierce at level 90
It'll become redundant if someone uses Ryuji to grind mementos
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I guess
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We'll come back to that later though
Haru is just a straight upgrade across the board
Good call on her
Akechi's moveset no longer sucks
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Yea, I decided to make it so that with Akechi, you actually can kinda "choose" his build
With how much coverage he gets and various boosters
So you get to pick and choose which you want him to do
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Sumire actually leans fully into her Crit-based abilities, which is a fantastic choice. Her bless stuff wasn't needed.
Joker has far better options than her by that point.
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True. But I decided to keep it
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Yeah, but tbh, her evolved personas make the "correct" choice pretty obvious.
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And yea, Princekechi got a bit of a downgrade by learning less skills, but hey, he now gets Heaven's Bow
Also, Akechi casually having 4 exclusives
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(Hopefully someone makes a Persona Expansion mod soon so we can fuse Robin Hood)
I like him
:)
Let me look at the fiends now
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Did you change Raoul too?
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That I will, soon™️
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Good, cause frankly
he SUCKS
Uhhh before I give judgement on Fiends
What do they drop
if you win
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I actually do need to think of that too
I never really kept that into consideration
Which I do apologize for
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No worries
Personally?
I'd go with various amounts of Soma.
They're an optional challenge, but they're tougher than anyone, even the boss.
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Mother Harlot is good. Nice level, hp, weakness and resistance spread.
Morgana will be the MVP for sure with her.
Daisoujou: No Preach or Samsara?
If I were being cheeky, I'd also make him weak to the hunger ailment, because starvation
White Rider: Don't be weak to guns.
Pale Rider: Don't forget your ailment cures.
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The Fiends get their exclusives on their superboss versions
AKA the ones in Path of Da'at
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Ahhhh okay
Black Rider: Bring fire. Lots of it.
Matador: Doesn't have Red Capote, so he won't be AS hard...at first.
Red Rider: Bring ice.
So, before I look at Path of Da'at
I think the first-round Fiends look good.
David: Kill it. Fast.
Matador: Don't be weak to Phys.
Daisoujou: Pray.
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Daisoujou: Pray.
How so
Hama/Mudo skills don't roll for instakill unless they hit a weakness in this version
(Basically how they worked in SMT V)
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Oh yea, he'll dwain you
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Hell Biker: He can kill you in three different ways, and he will do it. Don't be weak to fire.
White Rider: He'll kill you with the power of friendship and this gun he found.
Red Rider: If you can survive Hell Biker, you can survive this.
Black Rider: Imagine you were fighting a level 99 Satan with a perfect moveset. Prepare for that.
Pale Rider: Cure Ailments quickly or die. He is the embodiment of Pestilence for a reason.
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Yea, Pestilence literally does double damage to you if you have ailments
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Mother Harlot: TEMPTING GOBLET
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(It was way more BS in SMT Nocturne though, where it just instakilled you if you were Poisoned)
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Trumpeter: DOOT DOOT to your Doom. Kill him fast. With guns.
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Yea, I tried my best to make Trumpeter interesting
By not making him just have every Ma-dyne or variants
I even made my own take on Evil Melody for this
Where it makes you weak to Bless/Curse, and if he hits you with it again, you could be instakilled
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So the only real problem is Black Rider
He's kind of a worse Hell Biker
I would give Soul Divide a higher accuracy.
50% is bad for his signature move.
70 is good
kind rampart
Alright, buffed to 70%
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Especially since he'll also be going against dodge chance and all of that
I'll look into it a bit more once I'm home and make some notes
But overall, I like the direction you're going
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looking at P3 now
visual berry
I'm not sure if your willing to do this but i think it would be great if you could somehow implement a Metatron boss around the time you fight the angels once Mementos fuses with the real world. like he could easily be placed before fighting Yaldabaoth and giving him his skill (which i know exists in this mod, FIre of Sinai) would be a good idea and could provide a challenge before going up to fight Yaldabaoth
marble spindle
**Red Rider (Shido's Palace)**
Level: 70
Inferno
Maragidyne
Mind Slice
Bloodbat...
I think he should have a stronger phys than Megaton Raid considering the point of the game, maybe Brave Blade?
Okay lemme read the Da'at fiends rn
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David:
-Heat Wave seems very weak for this point in the game. Perhaps replace it with Deathbound or an equivalent skill?
Daisoujou:
-No Samsara seems like an odd choice, given it is literally his skill. Otherwise he seems fine enough.
Black Rider:
-No Ice Amp would make his Diamond Dust feel a lot less impactful, is there any reason it's missing?
White Rider:
-God's Bow is an immediate death sentence for Akechi with that instakill, which is fine enough but you never know what shadow you're facing in Mementos. It doesn't necessarily need changed, though, but the guaranteed instakill is the only thing I'd say to adjust.
Pale Rider:
-Same question here but for Curse Amp.
-Him having a Psy focused moveset with no Psy resistance feels even strange.
Trumpeter:
-Evil Melody is an insanely powerful skill with a very unique effect. Fitting for the strongest fiend.
Also general question: Does "inflict ailment" mean a guaranteed chance? If so, Mother Harlot and Pale Rider's skills seem almost too powerful, especially the party-wide charm since Morgana, Makoto or Sumi could heal her fully.
Reading the exclusives rn and Zaou Gongen's feels way too strong lmao, he'd always be in your party
Miracle of Fatima is also way too strong
Her Royal exclusives were already powerful enough, if anything she needs a nerf. She doesn't need an even stronger tool.
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I really like the idea of having more exclusives, but I worry about them being too powerful and furthering the already large strength gap between Joker and the party. Physical and support-based exclusive skills are especially worrying with how they'd eclipse a lot of what the party can offer. I think most of these skills are fine additions but should be tuned down in order to not just completely break the game balancing and make the protagonist nigh unstoppable and able to solo most everything at endgame.
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Some which stand out to me which I feel are definitely too strong:
Venomous Raga and Dream Raga (Krishna)
-What does 'greatly decrease' a stat mean? Is it an increased length to a debuff or a stronger, exclusive debuff? Are you planning on making buffs and debuffs stack upon themselves?
-Guaranteed ailment would also seem very strong if that's what "inflicts [ailment]" with no percentage implies.
Myriad Elements (Huang Long)
-With enough SP, this could make the party literally unkillable. It nulling almighty doesn't really make sense to me, and would just make it optimal to spam this with Spell Master and either Ave Mariah or Allure of Wisdom trait with Joker to make everything a joke. I don't even think you can balance this, especially when the main character has so many ways to counteract SP cost along with plentiful items.
Fire of Sinai (Metatron)
-This just has insane damage potential, especially with boost and amp. It could probably even out-damage Hassou Tobi against singular enemies (read: bosses) because of this. It definitely needs a damage nerf.
Kongo Zaou (Zaou-Gongen)
-This skill is just way too powerful. 3x damage and pierce resistances (for everyone mind you!) is outrageously strong and makes this persona a must use. This skill either needs to be completely reworked (perhaps just make it normal charge with pierce on your next physical attack? maybe make it a charge that can be applied to a specific ally, like Shido's will seed?) or outright removed.
Mist Slashes (Attis)
-This skill has the same problems as Fire of Sinai, although with even more hits to it. You'd need to nerf the damage or amount of hits quite a lot to account for its strength, especially since most strong fights are against single enemies.
Ruin and Grace (Ardha)
-The healing factor seems a bit too strong if its healing the whole party. Perhaps make it around 30% or lower?
Death Flies (Beelzebub)
-The concept is fine, but Die For Me! would have to do a decent amount more damage in comparison to not be immediately powercrept.
Pathway to Light (Sandolphon)
-I don't really have a problem with the skill itself, but is there a severe bless and curse option that isn't a unique. or will specific personas required for it?
Endless War (Asura-Ou)
-Having a skill both deal large damage and debilitate is way too powerful and I feel skills such as these (such as Antichthon) should be exclusive to bosses. Having a skill like this be available for Joker immediately devalues having Debilitate om Akechi or even having Makoto's unique skill in a boss fight. The debilitate should be changed to a single debuff for it to not be too strong.
Megiddo Ark (Satan/Satanael)
-Will this skill just completely outclass or replace their previous unique skill, Black Viper? If not, what changes will be made to them?
Miracle of Fatima (Maria)
-This skill just frankly does way too much without even needing player input or effecting turn economy. Automatic party-wide heat riser is already extremely powerful and completely outclasses both auto-ma skills and Yusuke's unique, but the inclusion of regeneration and even revival is just way too good. Maria's uniques in Royal were already too powerful, this just makes her insane.
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David:
-Heat Wave seems very weak for this point in the game. Perhaps replace it...
Samsara had a name change to Judgment Light
marble spindle
Oh I see
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Some which stand out to me which I feel are definitely too strong:
Venomous Rag...
You know how Beast Weaver greatly decreases your Attack after usage?
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Also sorry for writing a ton, just thought I'd give my thoughts on all the updates
kind rampart
This is the kinda debuff that the Ragas inflict
marble spindle
Oh I see
I wouldn't know cus I never used Beast Weaver
I assume the enemy debuff isn't permanent though correct?
kind rampart
Yea
It's not a permanent debuff
Also, I never really put in how high the chance of ailment infliction is on skills
marble spindle
Ah I see
kind rampart
Also, I really was struggling even making an exclusive for Huang Long
Considering that this is his exclusive from Dx2 and it's just as busted there
Also, Judgment Light is no longer exclusive
marble spindle
I think you could just make it null one non-almighty attack for one party member
Essentially applying both karns but without the repel effect
kind rampart
Yeah, fair