#The Beam Discussion

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

strong viper
#

The purpose of this post is to represent the general request from the community for a beam glyph to be added to the mod. Beam is one of our most requested glyphs, but it is a much more complicated request than one might think because it needs a LOT of details nailed down compared to our other Forms.

Therefore, this post serves to summarize the main talking points into a single post to make the topic more consolidated and digestible. This will hopefully allow newcomers to the discussion get up to speed without having to scour fragmented conversations that have taken place over the last couple years.

The easiest way to talk about Beam is by each parameter since each one alone can have a dramatic effect on how the glyph works. At the end, I will post what I currently see to be the most realizable Beam candidates. I will try to keep the posts updated with new information and Beam candidates.

You can view the current Beam candidates here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QJF5kagWr3LHfq95hHL16neGzZa1P9eeVon6yxK-iQg/edit?usp=sharing

channel.png
#

Type of Glyph
The most logical type of glyph would be a Form that can then carry Effect glyphs and accept Augments. I don’t recall seeing anyone argue for it to be an Effect glyph or an Augment. The following parameters will assume Beam is a Form glyph.

How does Beam cast in the world?
• Will Beam activate if the player holds the cast button OR does it just cast for a duration when it is clicked a single time?
• Does Beam stay attached to the caster while it is going OR does it get deployed at the cast location without needing further input from the player?
• Does Beam stay active as long the mouse is held OR does it have a maximum duration?
• Does Beam have infinite* range like projectile (* projectile has a long timeout instead of a range, when cast in traditional settings the spell is essentially infinite range) OR does the beam have a max range? Does the Beam have max range immediately and then extend out OR vice versa.

Does Beam cost mana…
• Once?
• Constantly as long as it is active?
• Only when an Effect glyph resolves on a valid target?
• Have an initial cost + sustained cost? Is the initial cost high with low sustain OR vice versa?
• Some combination?

Do Beam Effects occur….
• Every single chance they can occur (every tick)?
• In pulses with built in buffers between proccing Effects? How long are the delays? (important when considering invulnerability frames)
• Once per valid target and put that target on an internal cooldown before it can be affected again? What is that cooldown?

How do Effects work with Beam?
• Are Effects operating at their full power? (e.g. With every other Form, a harm glyph does X amount of damage; a knockback glyph always knocks things back X amount of units; a bounce glyph always last for X amount of duration)
• Do all or certain effects work differently when applied by Beam? (e.g. harm would deal ½ damage; knockback moves targets ½ distance; bounce lasts ½ duration)

General Notes
• When most people ask a Beam spell, they are usually referring to a damage spell similar to: a flamethrower, a Kamehameha (DBZ), disintegrate (Diablo Wizard), etc.
• While these are cool abilities, it’s important to remember there are two broad categories to Ars Nouveau spells: utility or damage. We want to implement Beam in a way to ideally would interact with every Effect glyph the same way and be usable for as many spells as possible. Consider how Beam can be used to build your base, mine out stone/ores, explore the world, or, of course, style on baddies. The more applications the better.
• Beam also should be distinct from projectile a common point about Beam is How is this different from simply casting projectile over and over?
• Beam should not have built in parameters already covered by Augment glyphs. Forms should strive to be a vehicle to deliver Effects to target(s) and nothing more (e.g. Channeling a beam overtime should not stack amplify on Effects within the spell; the beam should not pierce targets by default; etc.). We are wary of making glyphs that do too many things by themselves. Glyphs are supposed to be bite sized pieces in a modular spellcasting system. In other words, spell complexity should come from the spell as a whole and not baked into a single part.

strong viper
verbal arrow
#

I don't think you've thought about this enough... I'm gonna need more info

#

This is a very cool concept... Will finish reading later

verbal arrow
#

In candidate A, would the target just remain immune to beam? Or actually invulnerable? And would this only apply to mobs/players or anything the spell resolves on such as blocks?

Also feeling possible other issues popping up like

#

If this is just a bunch of projectiles much faster than spamming projectile or touch and a player does a wall, burst or linger sensitive combo targeting air, the amount of spell that could happen in very little time might get pretty insane lol

verbal arrow
#

Maybe beam could not be modifiable with sensitive?

ripe vapor
#

I think it would be really neat if split could turn it into a cone

strong viper
verbal arrow
#

Makes sense

strong viper
#

Linger... is always an issue

#

But, you could technically spam a bunch of linger around without Beam already

#

Burst is more intense with Linger than Beam

verbal arrow
#

Lol yeah... But wall and burst combos can get pretty insane as well with single casts... I suppose a player could already speed click 20 casts per second so probably a non issue there co.osred to what we have now

#

Is burst not banned with linger?

#

Has to be

strong viper
#

Actually.. I dont' know.

verbal arrow
#

Wall is and burst is even more

#

Spaces

strong viper
#

If it's truly awful in testing, than linger could be invalidated, but I'd want to see it first to be sure

verbal arrow
#

Mmhm

strong viper
#

Air blocks could also potentially gain "immunity" when using channel sensitive

verbal arrow
#

Ooh yeah

#

Didn't think of that

strong viper
#

explosion is another good litmus test to consider lol

verbal arrow
#

Lol

strong viper
#

I'll add the notes about linger/explosion in the comments and update my language on candidate A in a bit

willow frost
#

Could dampen work to reduce range?

#

Is there any way it could interact with randomize to make it do a whip-like movement?
Would it be able to target blocks with sensitive.
How would using beam be different from projectile in a turret, would it even be possible in it? Would the turrets also overheat?

strong viper
#

Ok I hit character limit quick and converted the candidate list into a google doc >_>

#

I forgot to add dampen and sensitive and have those in now. Also now includes Spell Turret functionality. randomize I am not certain what it should do as it is more geared towards augmenting Effects and could be argued that it should also affect Projectile firing at an obscure angle/touch affecting a random block in reach/etc. which.. I think is more weird than novel? Maybe I'm wrong. A whip like ability I believe should be a discussion for a different form. Same thing with the split comment: I believe a Cone would also be an ideal Form candidate separate from Beam

plain hill
#

Some thoughts:

'How does it cast' - Make a glyph control this behavior so that you can have it both ways. By default, a beam is only active as long as the player holds the button down, but it has a minimum duration (a few ticks) so that the game can render and react to the beam's effects. Make sure that minimum duration is small enough that a player can't abuse the spam-casting concept. Even just 2 or 3 ticks should be enough. If you add the Extend Time glyph, they can fire and let go and it will still keep going.

'Does it stay attached' - I think it should stay attached, for all the good and bad that it causes. If you're push-to-firing the spell, it's just emitting from you in the direction you face with your cursor at that exact moment. If you Extend Time it, everything stays the same but you don't have to hold the button anymore - whatever you face, it lasers. If you add Homing Projectile from Elemental, the beam stays on its original target (block, creature, direction) for the duration you fire the beam, even if you look away.

'Does it have a maximum range' - Amplify should extend the range, and it should have a moderately long distance up front. Maybe as far as a half-charged bow by default?

'Does it cost mana...' - I'd do what most MOBAs do, which is Cast cost plus Sustain cost. No lingering cost if effects are active after the beam shuts off.

'Does the beam effect occur...' I'd set it to trigger the effects every half- or quarter-second. This will prevent click-spamming to get the effect more often unless you're willing to pay the hefty Cast cost plus at least one pulse of the Sustain cost. If you want to be a turbo-damage clicker, you can do that, but for only a short time.

'How do effects work' - I think different glyphs should modify the effect when used in a beam. harm might trigger at full power, but adding aoe would reduce damage output by 15% or something like that. Those can all be determined later.

open rock
#

Mana and Artifice has a beam spell component. Maybe cribbing off of their implementation could help

plain hill
#

The real question for me is around 'why use projectile instead of beam' here. If beams are instant travel and have similar range to projectiles that travel, why would I use the projectile? There should be a key differentiator here. Range is the quick and easy fix, if projectiles can go much much further, that can matter.

strong viper
strong viper
#

also sorry if i pinged i cannot remember if i turned it off or not

plain hill
#

The tradeoff on range versus instant effect feels like a solid one for me. I'd probably always pick beam for close range and projectile for not, or for when I run and gun.

strong viper
strong viper
ruby cargo
#

Feel like A might be the coolest one out of the 3, but I would still have the effects trigger at 1/2 to 1/4 a second like candidate B to avoid a laggy mess

Also think that, without any type of spell cooldowns, it would be kind of difficult to differentiate between a held spell and a normal one, I guess beam would be more cost efficient than spamming ray?

strong viper
#

I'm not sure how much ray costs, but my current feelings are that Beam should be an expensive form, not one about mana efficiency. Rapid affect application + very minimal aiming is very powerful even with a max range cap on it. I see Beam as the end game mana dump form that wizards grow into being able to use more & more effectively as they increase their max mana/regen

silent rampart
#

if a beam was added at all, would it also mean continuously activated forms would be supported for addons to add?

#

that would be neat, addons could then add the rejected beams as different forms + add something like a cone of death or whatever

plain hill
silent rampart
#

and how on earth would you scale damage considering all the different glyphs in the mod? that's not really doable

#

what's the equivalent of scaling damage for a place block beam? what about a water evaporating one? or heck, for ignite? poison from harm extend time?

plain hill
#

Perhaps scaling 'effect' would be a better term. Larger radius, more damage?

silent rampart
#

so what should break do with beam?

#

how would you make a beam to break blocks in a line if it grows the radius?

#

if it doesn't grow radius, again how does evaporate work? what about what does flare do?

plain hill
#

I never said I solved everything with one suggestion, no need to be aggressive about it, heh.

silent rampart
#

ars is meant to be made of discrete units, trying to make each glyph's "power" continuous is a bad idea in my opinion

#

in summary, I don't think that works but someone let me know if it does

#

lol wait what imagine beam blink

#

would you be able to hold the beam?

#

these are the real questions

plain hill
#

But to answer some of your questions, perhaps for break or harm or heal, the long-term duration passively triggers Amplify. For things like evaporate and flare, maybe it can passively trigger AOE. Maybe that's one of the features of Beam, is that it can bring extra glyph behaviors based on how you use it.

strong viper
#

I really don't like the idea of forms having built in Augments tbh. Enchanter's Tools are already the intended method for cheating in extra Augments

uncut shale
#

That's a potential question tbh. Have beam be from a casting tool only

verbal arrow
# silent rampart would you be able to hold the beam?

I don't see what the issue would be with blink.. if youre hitting a block, the cooldown would still apply, if you're casting blink and sweeping you'd just teleport a zillion times? Same as if you speed clicked projectile blink... Unless I'm missing something?

#

With candidate A at least

#

Haven't read the rest

dark apex
#

MASTER SPARKKKKKKKKKK

open rock
#

Treat it like a bow and only have the beam fire when fully drawn?

silent rampart
verbal arrow
#

I guess it depends on if it's a keep going as long as you hold it or a timed thing with a single press.. if it runs as long as you hold it and you're still holding it down I would expect it to still be casting or start casting again... If it's a timed thing I would expect that to be cancelled when you teleport as most things are cancelled at tp in Minecraft

#

I guess either way I would expect it to be cancelled

#

But if you're still holding it it would start again

#

Idk if you have a bow drawn back and you teleport do you have to release and hold rmb again to draw again?

strong viper
strong viper
open rock
ruby cargo
#

I still don't understand the difference between beam and just spamming any spell though, wouldn't it just be a cooler ray? Does it apply the spell's effects at a faster rate?

plain hill
#

There needs to be a disadvantage (can't spam the beam shots) and an advantage (more equivalent hits per second) of some sort. You can increase or decrease those perks/costs to find the sweet spot for Beam.

#

Maybe Beam doesn't make sense for various Glyphs compared to Ray. It's perfectly fine that AOE Evaporate makes more sense in Ray form, because it doesn't actually need multiple consecutive ticks to benefit from the effect.

#

Whereas Harm or Heal might go the other way. That's why I mentioned something like ramping effects. Maybe the first few hits of the beam are Dampened, and then it's baseline for a few hits, and then subsequent hits are Amplified? This forces you to sustain the beam, not spam it.

To me, an individual Ray hit should cost less and do more than the first few hits of a Beam. Over time, the Beam should do more and cost more than multiple Ray shots. At the extreme end, if you're somehow sustaining 4+ Ray shots per second to emulate the Beam, a Ray should again cost less and do more.

It's not realistic that someone can turbo-spam Ray regularly, but if they somehow are keeping up with the Beam's hit-per-second equivalent, they should be rewarded. And they'll need a new mouse after a few days.

strong viper
# ruby cargo I still don't understand the difference between beam and just spamming any spell...

Ultimately there will always be some truth to forms being rapid cast versions of other forms.

projectile is our base line form to compare against with the key attributes being essentially infinite range and having no drop off with a low-moderate mana cost. Using it requires the most amount of aiming and has travel time before the effect can proc.

Ray (remember this is from an addon and not in all worlds with AN) has a range cap , likely to balance/distinguish it from projectile, in order to offer hitscan properties. Using this requires less aiming than projectile, and delivers effects immediately on click. I think it's mana cost is higher too, but don't quote me.

To justify Beam existing, we need to establish unique properties that set it apart from Projectile (and Ray to some extent). The most concrete justifications for Beam so far:

  • Beam requires a very low amount of aiming to land spells because the player can "sweep" with it to correct their aiming mid-cast.
  • Beam would be the only form that can apply effects over time per cast.
  • Beam being cast through holding a button/clicking once for a duration grants a new accessible ranged option that can help reduce hand fatigue when the alternative would be spam clicking another form repeatedly for a long period of time. (though I think you might be able to already hold to rapid cast spells with other forms currently anyway? In which case this point becomes less important)
  • There is simply a lot of demand to make spells that visually looks/feels like shooting a beam to achieve certain power fantasies (not the strongest justification, but still worth including)
weary goblet
#

For me i think that candidate B and E are the best options but maybe E is better because of its unique "charge" idea

plain hill
#

You could easily blend those together, too. Add the charge mechanic to the B style and get something that's both. B doesn't specify a charge/no charge part, so they glue together nicely. 🙂

dull lance
#

Imagine a glyph that creates a sticky surface wherever it lands
Beam + sticky and now you have a grappling hook

#

I really wanted a continuous beam, the closest thing was the hitscan rays of the TMG

lapis ice
#

If we go back to Ars Magica's Beam form, iirc, it was a Short Range Hitscan AoE. The AoE was tight and controlled along the length of the Beam and 'triggered' on every block within the block-distance traveled.
Mithion's current "Beam" spell is a hitscan ray with a long box on the end that travels away from the player to a maximum distance.

wet olive
#

Would a beam being fired from a turret with a constant flow of source essentially be an infinitely cast spell?

lapis ice
#

maybe?

plain hill
#

It's functionally impossible for a player to maintain a beam for a long duration given their personal source pool, so you could always just figure out what's a reasonable maximum for a player's pool, double or triple it, figure out how long it takes a basic beam spell to expend that much source, and call that beam max duration. That way turrets with substantially augmented source pools could fire several of those in succession based on their available source. Optionally have a 1-2 second cooldown before the beam can be fired again.

silent rampart
lapis ice
#

I think the point of beam is to be able to do things like sweeping an area with spell effects. having to pause and wait for a cool down would be annoying

silent rampart
#

doesn't really matter how high the cost can go, if it's still O(1) someone will build a source farm with enough capacity to sustain the max value

lapis ice
plain hill
#

That's a design feature, not a problem. 😄

#

If you're willing to architect a substantial chunk of your base so that it powers an infinite turret, do it.

strong viper
#

I mean, you can already infinitely spam spell turrets right now

lapis ice
#

I see Beam as a way to target pesky grass and weeds one wouldn't want, or a satisfactory way to mine or 'paint' with Place Block

#

Another tool on its way to improving Ars Nouveau's terraforming capabilities

silent rampart
#

No reason to be that one mod that hates fun

lapis ice
#

right???

strong viper
#

yeah a max cap would be nice

wet olive
#

So, beam>sensitive>burst is essentially a Kamehameha?

lapis ice
#

maybe?

wet olive
#

Throw on any of the propagate spells and that sounds dirty

wet olive
#

The "Rule of Cool" says sim all in for this, but the balance is going to be hard to pin down.

lapis ice
#

Honestly? A single block beam that is 48 blocks long, vector look controlled, non-stop casting, default cost same as projectile but per tick. Modifiable by AoE, Pierce, and Sensitive. AoE increases width, Pierce increases length, and Sensitive allows targeting the same as Touch.

pallid lintel
#

Isnt this the same as the ray glyph from too many glyphs

strong viper
#

only similarity is the hitscan effect - main differences come from beam width, continuous casting, and mana cost over time

hollow lake
prime current
#

i think a cool way to adress most of the pains of the beam spell is to have a a charge on target mechanic similar to this in the video

#

where the beam has to be affecting the target for a set time for it to resolve the spell

#

while the mana cost is either constant or ramps up

#

this disencourages players from flailing around and doing 360 no scopes

#

as that way they'd be wasting mana

#

imo the reason to use a beam over projectiles is for whenever you want to repeat a certain effect over and over for the duration you want

#

the "completion" time circle could be a ring around the reticle that fills up showing you how far along you are

lapis ice
#

don't ruin fun

prime current
#

then a really easy fix is that the first tick applies the effect and after that the timer starts again

lapis ice
#

for what purpose?

prime current
lapis ice
#

why not. The Mana per tick would be far more expensive than a one time use

#

and there's many reasons to use a touch or projectile over a beam

prime current
#

if it's more expensive then you'd rather use repeated projectiles because of mana cost

lapis ice
#

you ever try to remove a singular storage block from a multitude of several with an AOE spell?

prime current
#

for what it's worth you might also use an axe or pickaxe at that point

lapis ice
#

you use touch or projectile for control and precision

#

why would i use an axe or pickaxe when I can cast spells???

#

that's like saying you can ignore the mod entirely and just play vanilla

prime current
#

if the logic is that mana cost is the biggest difference between beam and projectile then

#

tools use less mana

lapis ice
#

you're not wrong, but if I'm using a tool why do i have spells??

#

the point is to balance cost vs use

#

while still using spells that are objectively better than tools

prime current
#

cost doesn't seem a balancing factor for form glyphs

lapis ice
#

no?

#

then you aren't playing default Ars Nouveau

prime current
#

instead functional or augments glyphs should have cost attached

lapis ice
#

every glyph has a cost

prime current
#

form glyphs just shape how the effects are placed

lapis ice
#

it's cheaper to use a touch spell over a projectile spell

#

that's why you use touch

prime current
lapis ice
#

the point of beam is that it's a constant effect. People using it in PVP are doing so at a disadvantage

#

they are wasting Mana to pull off a godlike move to finish their opponent. if they fail that leaves them open to slaughter

hollow lake
prime current
#

factoring in pvp as one of the main balancing issues is ridiculous

hollow lake
#

im developping an addon and as i see it mana usage is VERY important

#

too little mana cost and a spell becomes spamable

#

too much and it is dogwaqter

prime current
#

that's why you attach most of the cost to the effects

#

if beam wwas as expensive as you guys believe it should be

#

it would not be good as a utility tool

#

you are all forgetting about hos form glyphs are meant to be used for both utility and combart

#

i would like a mining beam for example

#

i'm not necessarily interested in a damage beam

#

easiest way to fix this is by having the effects determine themana use fer tick

lapis ice
#

they do

prime current
#

yeah so it's what i said then

#

💀

lapis ice
#

not at all

lapis ice
#

charge on target

#

that is not entirety of spell cost per tick

prime current
lapis ice
#

mine is entirety of spell cost per tick, as if you're spamming projectile

prime current
#

in the suggestion i clearly stated that mana cost is flat during the whole duration of the beam

#

the charge per target is simply how long you need to be using the beam on a target for the effect to take place

#

for example 10 ticks

#

or half a second

lapis ice
#

that's not how beam should work. it's not a charge to effect form

prime current
#

this makes the beam hitscan without the troubles of doing damage every tick

lapis ice
#

it's an effect for duration form

prime current
#

that's how it internally is coded so you don't deal 2 hearts of damage 20 times a second

#

it's an internal buffer

lapis ice
#

do you want to sit on a vein of ore waiting ten ticks for the break glyph to go off?

prime current
#

otherwise you'd apply the effect 20 times a second because that's how minecraft registers this

lapis ice
#

no

#

per spell tick

prime current
lapis ice
#

that's, what , 4 ticks? 5?

hollow lake
#

this thread is giving me brain rot

lapis ice
#

same as linger or wall

prime current
#

i personally jsut don't see beam as an offensive option, this is minecraft, it's not a combat game

#

to each their own

#

i'd personally prefer for it to be more of a utility tool

#

to help put blocks for a huge wall very quickly for example

lapis ice
#

I'm confused... your example suggests nerfing it into the ground as a utility tool so it can be viable and not OP in combat...

prime current
#

exactly

lapis ice
#

yet your nerf suggests removing the very bit of it that makes it fun

#

try not removing the fun

hollow lake
#

ray is good as it is.

#

its very powerful at close range

#

and mid range

#

but at long range it is innefective

#

also i think that spelsl that use 'cores' like touch sensitive wall sensitive [propagate:any] are a bigger problem than Ray will ever be

#

the wall sensitive core is very much overpowered

#

next to it ray is nothing

#

also iframe skips are busted

lapis ice
#

you're not wrong

gritty barn
hollow lake
#

i remember back in the 1.16 days when doing even 200 dps was an achievement

#

good ol' days

#

tbh i kinda miss strength and speed

gritty barn
#

can you do me a favour and describe what you mean? Preferably in #1131511198156857495 or #off-topic since its not related to this feature request

hollow lake
#

?

#

to whom were you speaking?

lapis ice
#

you

hollow lake
#

uh

#

i dont really know what i described

#

but wall sensitive and propagate is really good

#

it has got aoe, dps, range, it's got it all

#

and with missile you don't need to aim

#

just point and click

gritty barn
hollow lake
#

ah

#

the strength and speed glyph

#

from 1.16.5

#

they gave speed and well strength

gritty barn
#

lets move to #1131511198156857495

hollow lake
#

yep

hollow willow
#

Is there a tldr or google doc Summerizing ideas?

narrow pollen
#

check the pins

glossy lagoon
#

I actually kind of like a mix of A, B, and E

Casting method: primarily the mechanics of A, the main changes here is that like B it would have a minimum duration to limit spamming and keep the casting of the spell consistent (it will always do at least this much when you tap the button), and that glyph effects are applied when the beam first hits a valid target and then once per second that the beam is maintained and in contact with at least one valid target(might need to make glyph effects do half their full effect every second if the full effect once per second proves to be too strong in testing).
Mana cost: casting the beam costs a small amount and then slightly more than that per tick to maintain it. Glyph costs are taken from mana each time they proc(halved if it's only half effect per second)
Tier: Should definitely be tier 3 since beams will get very powerful very quick with minimal effort anyway.
Augments: same as A, except since we're dropping the immunity in favor of a once per second effect rate extend time instead increases the minimum duration on tap and duration down reduces it(both should have caps to prevent them from becoming to ridiculous).

plucky flint
#

Could have it as a charge type glyph where any effect spells get calculated for the spell during the charge time so when its released then all that damage or the effects all hit at once. Like take harm for example: Harm does what 1 heart of damage normally? Well if you do Beam -> Harm then you could effectively charge the Harm for like 5 seconds and it would do 1 heart per second so in one cast you could do 5 hearts of damage in one second of casting after its charged. Now for Mana cost I think it should drain the bar during the charge time but stop when its ready or runs out. You could even have it set where it drains so much mana in so many seconds or if you dont have that much then whatever it drains is how powerful it can be. Say you have 800 mana and the spell you made with Beam drained 100 Mana per second for charging. If the charge time was 5 seconds then thats 500 mana drained. If the charge time was 10 seconds then thats only 800 mana drained for a spell that could be more powerful the more mana you had. That way it gives incentive to learn every glyph and get the best mana boost and regen possible. Now as for after charging you can have it hold that charge til release with a second right click. So you could have 10 spells charged and ready to go in one book with another book dedicated to instant spells.

whole summit
whole summit
wet olive
whole summit
plucky flint
#

With the right enchants and spell and apothic affix on it you can deal massive damage on things with one. Enough so to almost two shot the Ender Dragon without destroying any crystals at all.

minor bobcat
plucky flint
#

Its been a long time since I did that. Course that was also back in 1.16 when I could make invincible armor too.

plush radish
#

One idea I have regarding this glyph that I don't think I've read would be the effect of channeling the spell on the player's own movement.
What I mean is that, in multiple situations where a beam is used, the caster is fixed in position while he channels it and I wonder if this is a factor considered.
To give an example, in the videogame Magicka, when using beam, the mage is fixed while casting, however, in Magicka 2 movement is allowed more at a slower speed.

strong viper
#

Slowing the players movement is an interesting balancing idea

prisma hatch
#

Good thought is that when casting, have a slower movement speed based on the amount of mana used to cast

plush radish
#

An interesting variable, another idea would be that the movement restriction grew at the beginning along with the beam, so that it begins barely perceptible and when the beam grows to the maximum, thus the movement restriction on the player.

hollow geyser
#

IMO, the beam should:

consume mana once
slow the player
charge up and get stronger with time
not be cancellable (big commitment)
last 5-10 seconds
not be compatible with other OP glyphs

fluid mist
#

Beams look cool. If it's functionally the same as autofiring a projectile every 0.5 seconds, and looks cool, that would be enough to make me happy.

hollow geyser
#

guys its easy

#

just make the beam already

image.png
hollow lake
hollow geyser
#

it also crashed my gam

hollow lake
#

well, time to recreate it

hollow geyser
uncut shale
#

No response. He's dead Jim

hollow lake
#

its 2am and i am on a can of redbull, a can of monster abd two cups of coffee. this is the pnly reason i am still awake

#

(can’t access the computer as dad is in the room next door)

#

im going to try to go to sleep

#

bye friends

hollow geyser
#

it was 3am for me

nimble wharf
#

I think beam should not be compatable with linger

vale frigate
#

it totally should be, think of the spells you can make

#

just make linger be a line, so it lingers over a specific area in like a line instead of a circle

nimble wharf
#

Like

#

Imagine thousands of lightning strikes

vale frigate
#

Can you not read

strong viper
#

No insulting each other please

vale frigate
#

not an insult, a question

strong viper
vale frigate
final isle
#

I have an idea for a "beam" spell.

It would be a beam/laser that follows the player's look and position and applies an effect every 1/4 second.
It could have a rectangle hitbox that's 0.5 blocks in diameter and could extend from the player until it hit an entity/block or it reached it's maximum length (30 blocks without modifiers).

#

To balance the cost, and don't make it a replacement for projectile I'd make it cost the same as the usual cost with projectile instead of beam for every chance of effecting (1/4 second), while all effects that target entities are halved in intensity/damage.

#

Here is the complete info:

How it casts:
The beam is active as long as the cast key is held down and has a minimum cast duration of 1/2 s.
The beam has a diameter of half a block and a 30 block max length. It behaves like a laser pointer, following the player’s look vector and position, and extends to the nearest entity or block on its path or until it reaches the maximum length.
The effects trigger every 1/4 seconds.

Mana cost:
Every 1/4 second, a cost equal to the usual cost with projectile instead of beam is consumed.
When initially cast, a cost equal to double the usual cost with projectile instead of beam is consumed.

Accessibility:
The spell form would be tier 3 and would atleast require prismarine shards (since guardians are the only creatures that utilize a beam of sorts).

Interactions with other glyphs:
When cast on an entity, the intensity of all effects is reduced to half the original.
Effects that work in an area (e.g. explosion, linger…) should get nerfed in some way.
explosion could be dampened, while linger and wall could get Duration Down. (don't know what to do about burst)

Augments:
Augments could be used a maximum of two times, usually increasing the spell cost not by adding upon it, but by multiplying it.
amplify would extend the maximum length by 15 blocks, while multiplying the total cost by 1.5 times the number of amplifies.
dampen would decrease the maximum length by 10 blocks, while multiplying the total cost by {1 - Num. of Dampen / 4}.
pierce would allow the beam to go through an extra target, increasing the cost by half the number of pierces.
sensitive would allow the targeting of fluids and grasses. The cost would increase like any regular augment; adding to the total cost instead of multiplying it.

final isle
#

I have also thought of some uses for aoe , extend_time and split but I'm not sure if they're fitting, balanced and thought-out enough.

AOE: could simply make the beam bigger, like multiplying the diameter by the number of AOE. Alternatively, it could project it like a cone. The cost would multiply by the number of AOE.

Extend Time: could "charge" the spell up (like 1 second per augment) and would release the "energy" that would be generated under normal conditions for half the time (so for 1 extend_time it would charge 1 second and shoot a short ray that dealt 100% percent the damage of the normal magic with projectile ; and 2 extend_time would take 2 seconds and damage double the amount of a single projectile spell). The cost would be equal to the mana used to cast the ray during half the time it took to charge. To make it more balanced an effect like snare could be used on the caster while they are "charging" the spell.

Split: could create 4 separate beams that in total deal about the same damage as a normal beam and could be arranged in a V form, to deal with close enemies or hordes.
(I'm not to sure about this one; I don't like the damage increase split usually has so I thought of a version that deals the same amount of damage but helps with having to aim)
It could have a shorter reach or increased cost to balance the spread that this would offer.

final isle
#

For graphic effects I thought of maybe using the guardian laser stare, since it would align more to the base game look while also allowing for greater visibility (at least for the caster).

If the extend_time use where to be implemented, a cast ring could be used to show that a spell is charging up and allow the enemy to react.

hollow geyser
final isle
#

Xd

#

Fair tho

hollow geyser
#

we all have our own thoughts on beam

#

and how it should work

final isle
#

Yep

#

And I came late to the talk

hollow geyser
#

but if devs add it they prolly aint gonna listen to any of us tbh

final isle
#

So what's this chat's state right now?

final isle
hollow geyser
hollow geyser
final isle
#

So jokes and slight to no progress

hollow geyser
#

yes

uncut shale
#

The main problem is we can't override how other glyphs work just in this case. That's not how the spell system works

#

In the mean time, little work has been done mostly because for most uses, ray from tmg is sufficient

final isle
uncut shale
#

Forms simply change how the target is selected.

#

They don't change how the effects apply, or how much they cost. Everything is a flat cost. How to you determine what "50% efficiency" means with add-on glyphs?

hollow geyser
uncut shale
#

Yes specific hard coded things that we control

final isle
#

About the "50% efficiency" I thought of basically slapping a dampen or something similar onto any effect when it's cast on an entity.
Although now, that I've read your comments, I think it would be best to run it like wall or linger, where the full effects trigger every second or so and this can be accelerated with accelerate

strong viper
#

Beam is still a big maybe, but last time I talked to Bailey, the best candidate was a mixture of 2 or 3 of the suggestions

final isle
#

Alright, I'll have a look in the document then

lapis ice
#

btw, once implemented, goggles/devices of varying superheroes so we can shoot beams in similar styles.

forest spire
lapis ice
hollow geyser
#

hell no im not downloading a pdf from a guy on discord

wheat sapphire
#

Trimmed it way down so it fits in 2 messages lol
CANDIDATE F | Pulse (Could be its own glyph in an addon)

HOW IT CASTS
Beam has a charge up time of one second.
Once charged, the Beam will periodically pulse once a second, deducting mana and affecting anything in its path until reaching terminal range or until it reaches a target.
Beam is hitscan and applies Effects on valid targets it collides with.
The Beam causes your Fov to lower slightly and reduces your camera movement speed similar to the cinematic camera from vanilia but not nearly as severe.
Beam activates as long as the cast button is held and follows the player’s look vector
Beam has an effective range and an ineffective range.
After 8 blocks the beam begins to destabilize and gets a level of the dampening effect.
After 15 blocks the beam becomes ineffective and terminates.
The Beam must be charged again before being able to fire a second time.

MANA COST
The initial cost of the glyphs following Beam is deducted immediately.
After the charge up period mana regeneration is reduced by a significant amount and the beam starts draining mana for each pulse executed at a fixed rate proportional to the strength of the glyphs used.
Mana is Deducted regardless of if you hit a target or not.

#

AUGMENTS
Amplify increases the effective range of the beam by 2.5 blocks and reduces the minimum range by 2.5 blocks. Can be stacked 3 times.
Dampen decreases the max effective range of the beam by 2.5 blocks and increases the minimum range by 2.5 blocks. Can be stacked 3 times.
Accelerate decreases the time it takes between each pulse by 0.25 of a second but also increases mana consumption. Can be stacked 3 times.
Decelerate increases the time it takes between each pulse by 0.25 of a second while decreasing mana consumption. Can be stacked 3 times.
AoE increases the diameter of the Beam as well as the amount of targets that can be hit per pulse. Can be stacked up to 2.
Pierce allows the Beam to continue through a target and hit another one behind it. Can be stacked up to 3.
Extend Time increases the amount of time the hitscan is active. Can be stacked up to 5.
Duration Down decreases the amount of time the hitscan is active. Can be stacked up to 5.
Sensitive allows targeting semi solid blocks and fluids.

final isle
hollow geyser
wheat sapphire
#

Yeah basically

wheat sapphire
#

I was going for a hybrid between ray and projectile that's very customizable. If you want it to be a permafire flamethrower add 2 accelerate. If you want it to be a single shot ray of death add Aoe and pierce. The cadidate name needs work though

willow frost
#

a

hollow geyser
hollow geyser
uncut shale
hollow geyser
willow frost
#

why were they removed? these are funny

#

well rather than funny useful

uncut shale
#

Exactly. Why make a potion of water breathing to add to your melded potion of spell damage, if you can simply cast it?

#

Who is going to add a speed thread or drink speed potions, why bother with a speed beacon at your base if you can simply cast speed 9?

willow frost
#

honestly i don't see why you got rid of haste, by super imposing on a speed thread, this coulda been the flash moment

uncut shale
#

Potion effects were removed from spells so that you had a reason to make potions when we added that functionality to wixies in 1.18

hollow geyser
plush radish
#

Basically they made an effort to facilitate and encourage alchemy instead of replacing it with spells.

#

In any case, continuing with the original theme of the thread, I imagine that using Infuse with Beam would only waste the potions one carried.

#

Unless they are instant healing/damage.

waxen nest
#

eugh. lame and tedious (on the lack of effect casting).

hollow lake
#

tbh i like alchemy more

waxen nest
#

alchemy is good for brewing up bigger/longer effects and if you can mix effects or get more uses of an effect etc. but sometimes you just want a short burst of speed and a shield with your escape self-yeet. :V

willow frost
#

Of course, not every potion effect should have that, but would be nice to have jump boost 5 or something

waxen nest
final isle
#

More like launch set up to trigger on {spacebar}

willow frost
#

more flair than simply having the spell

#

besides you'd need it at hand at all time

civic warren
#

I think this discussion is really an issue of several discussions being framed as one, the main two of which would be:

  1. Ray
  2. Beam

A ray would be an instantanteous-duration hit-scan form with either infinite or limited range. This would apply its effects once per proc. It could be differentiated from projectile by "priming" the effect, similar to drawing a bow. Accelerate/decelerate to affect draw prime duration. This could be a tier 2 glyph, using the draw time as a counterbalance to its instant delivery. Alternatively, its draw duration could take place following the cast instead of before the cast (akin to crossbow reload), so as to balance with the following Beam proposal.

A beam would be a hit-scan, hold-to-cast channeled spell, with a limited range, which procs at a regular interval, applying its effects at each proc, consuming mana for each proc. Amplify/dampen to increase or decrease the range. Accelerate/decelerate to increase or decrease the proc rate. This would be a tier 3 glyph, providing a sustained form of spell delivery. It could include a "draw time" as mentioned above before firing the initial damage.

Both forms would need to affect only the first target entity or block hit, so as to not auto-include AoE or Pierce glyphs.

narrow pollen
#

The point of 1) is that it already exists

#

Except for the whole charge up mechanic that is incompatible with the spellbooks atm codewise

civic warren
#

What glyph does a ray attack?

strong viper
#

It's the Ray glyph from an addon

civic warren
#

oh, well, not an addon i have peepobonker

#

but that's cool ig haha

#

what addin?

thorn hamletBOT
#

@civic warren

Result for search: ray

**Form:** Ray from Not Enough Glyphs

Instantaneously strikes the pointed-at target, at limited yet greater range than Touch. Mana is expended whether or not the ray hits anything. AOE increases range. Sensitive 1 lets the ray strike objects that do not block motion, such as plants or floating Magelight globes. Sensitive 2 allows the ray to strike fluids.

Sensitive: Sensitive 1 lets the ray strike objects that do not block motion, such as plants or floating Magelight globes. Sensitive 2 allows the ray to strike fluids.
AOE: Increases reach.

Tier

1

Cost

15

narrow pollen
#

For 1.20 and older refer to TooManyGlyphs

civic warren
#

I seeeee. What's the range on it by default?