Alchemical Sourcelink Math and thoughts | Ars Nouveau | Page 1

sterile thorn Mar 25, 2023, 10:49 PM

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So I've decided to do a deep dive with alchemical sourcelinks.

TL:DR: needs a big buff for blended potions to be worth it

Math:
75 per potion dose/bottle

for each effect,
+150 for the effect itself
+duration (in ticks)/50
+250 (if level 2)

add all that up and then multiply by 1+(NumEffects*0.5). So 2 effects is a 1.5x bonus. 3 would be a 2x bonus

so.. real numbers:

mana regen gives 297 source
spell damage gives 297 source.

take 3 of each and meld together and you only get 778 source. compared instead to 6 individual potions which would be 1782

the book implies that the intent is to be worthwhile to use bigger and more complex potions, but the math doesnt work out

obsidian depot Mar 25, 2023, 10:55 PM

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what if we tripled the output of the melder?

sterile thorn Mar 25, 2023, 10:55 PM

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melded sign is assuming both effects are the same duration and amplification level as each other

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yeah as xacris mentioned in chat, the main problem is that the melder takes 6 doses to give 1. so that 1.5x is never going to be worth it. let alone going for 4 effects together

tough jacinth Mar 25, 2023, 10:59 PM

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an alternative to tripling the output is requiring 1/3 the materials meaning 2 doses to give 1. It achieves the same ratio over all but allows for more control with the amount that you make

sterile thorn Mar 25, 2023, 11:11 PM

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Originally reading the code, I assumed that it was 1.5(n) if n>1.

Which would be 3x bonus for 2 effects. But even that would only work out to 1557 for a mana Regen/damage potion

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Which is still less than the 1782 you'd get from just sending 6 potions to it instead of one melded

sour tartan Mar 28, 2023, 1:09 PM

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Why is the melder not 1:1? Even at 1:1 you're gonna have a hard time getting modded players to use potions tbh. I don't think it would be very OP at all, especially compared to enchants and threads... It would have to be some crazy overhaul to how potions work to get the vast majority of players to actually use potions, even if the wixie makes working with potions much more fun... IMO

obsidian depot Mar 28, 2023, 1:14 PM

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My guess would be that the cost is to dissuade potions with tons of effects. Each nest costs way more currently

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Every time you meld, it triples the cost

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Which... Yeah idk, it could be interesting to do it 1 dose of each to meld. Potions are generally underutilized (by people other than myself)

tough jacinth Mar 28, 2023, 7:10 PM

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sour tartan Why is the melder not 1:1? Even at 1:1 you're gonna have a hard time getting mod...

you say a crazy overhaul, but people will start using potions if the potion lets them xray for a specific ore easily lol. That aint that insane. Of course thats not from this mod but that isn't really my point.

regal garden Mar 30, 2023, 2:40 PM

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The melder taking 3 was likely because the wixie always makes 3 at a time as well

loud peak Mar 30, 2023, 2:57 PM

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Personally I don't quite feel super great about an easily obtained omni-potion. That would be like the only thing people would craft I would guess. Having some sort of scaling cost encourages some decision making and cost-benefit analysis. Maybe a 2:1 would help take the edge off a bit.

obsidian depot Mar 30, 2023, 2:59 PM

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yeah, that's why I was a bit unsure about the 1 of each for 1 combined potion, but 3 of each feels a bit too much, especially because the Alchemical Soucelink feels like it wants you to combine potions to get better output, but the math just doesn't currently check out

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could change the math on the backend I suppose, but every meld triples the total cost

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so going more than 2 melds deep gets prohibitively expensive regardless

sterile thorn Mar 30, 2023, 3:01 PM

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My main thought is for the alchemical link. It clearly implies in the description that more complex potions should be used. But again, math says no

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1 of each for one output is still a 2:1 ratio

obsidian depot Mar 30, 2023, 3:02 PM

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well, not necessarily

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because you get the effect of each potion

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and get paid out for each effect

sterile thorn Mar 30, 2023, 3:03 PM

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I mean it's still 2 potions in for 1 potion out

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Instead of the current 6:1

obsidian depot Mar 30, 2023, 3:03 PM

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one potion with 2 effects might as well be 2 potions as far as the sourcelink is concerned

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actually, it would be immediately a payout if it was 1 of each

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that would just be 1.5x right?

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which kinda feels like what it should be, if I'm honest

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like just from a math perspective in the sourcelink

sour tartan Mar 30, 2023, 3:06 PM

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2:1 would help for sure, but I'm pretty sure even at 1:1 it's gonna be an extreme minority using the system for actual potions out in the field... The modded community has had such a dislike for potions for so long, it would have to be some kinda OP to bring anyone over...

But as far as the sauce link goes, maybe easier to just change how the saucelink deals with melded potions than how melded potions are created, if 1:1 is too OP

obsidian depot Mar 30, 2023, 3:06 PM

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modded players only want potion amulets

sterile thorn Mar 30, 2023, 3:06 PM

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You'd expect it to be worth at least the individual potions with a bonus. Which currently it's better than that. But the problem is the 6:1 ratio

obsidian depot Mar 30, 2023, 3:07 PM

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people love curios that give infinite potion effects

sour tartan Mar 30, 2023, 3:07 PM

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Yeah where you make like 10 potions worth to get a charm that lasts forever... It's true

sterile thorn Mar 30, 2023, 3:07 PM

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Amplified 3 minute potion, if you have two melded, it's worth almost 3. But again, you'd get 6x just using them straight

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Mana Regen 2+ damage 2 gets you 1528. (15%) but individually those are each worth 547

sour tartan Mar 30, 2023, 3:09 PM

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I, personally, might carry a flask around of some super omnipotion... But at the same time I haven't run into a situation, especially in just vanilla and ars, where enchants on decent armor and a good weapon/spell combo doesn't get me through it

sterile thorn Mar 30, 2023, 3:09 PM

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I just never think to use or carry them myself

obsidian depot Mar 30, 2023, 3:09 PM

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so, 1 of each for 1 melded potion as far as potion use goes, is basically just combining the potions together. You don't lose anything at all, either from the sourcelink or actual usage

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and I use potions quite a bit myself

sterile thorn Mar 30, 2023, 3:10 PM

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So the positive there is the larger energy density with the potion to source ratio. A jar of mega potion will generate source faster

sour tartan Mar 30, 2023, 3:11 PM

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Even if the melder gets a slight buff to 2:1, the sauce link should take in to consideration what was used to make this potion, and give like 1.5x to the total potion cost

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IMO

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Or, keep everything how it is and add a 3.5x multiplier for each melded potion? This would make the OP scenario for mana regen+spell damage output 2079 sauce vs 1782 individually

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I think this might be more in-line with what the book says about melded potions being stronger?

sterile thorn Mar 30, 2023, 3:30 PM

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would probably want to check the math on if you did 2 layers of melding as well. but i dont feel like doing that math right now

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for that matter, it also depends on how you blend them. if you kept adding a single effect each layer it would be less efficient than melding two pairs of potions and then melding those two double potions into a quad

regal garden Jun 20, 2023, 4:36 PM

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so new math:
1 mana regen 1 = 297

Mana regen 1 + Spell Damage 1 = 2076

This is with the new melder config, and melders only take 2 charges of each to meld, so 4 potions each = 1 output

sterile thorn Jun 20, 2023, 4:37 PM

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So takes 4 potions total to get the 1 output. Those on their own are 1188, but combined you get 2076. I like it

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What's the formula?

regal garden Jun 20, 2023, 4:38 PM

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There are also bonuses for amplification and duration but haven’t looked into those yet

obsidian depot Jun 20, 2023, 4:38 PM

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add the values together than double it?

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no

regal garden Jun 20, 2023, 4:41 PM

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Base value * ((unique effects -1 ) *4)

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The cumulative base value of each potion in the mix

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The math still doesn’t work out for higher tiers since the consumption is exponential though

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I need I need to make it some exponent on the multiplier for each unique effect

obsidian depot Jun 20, 2023, 4:45 PM

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eh, it's probably fine that there's a sweet spot

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like I don't know if we want someone to be able to make a potion that instantly fills the whole buffer? Well I know Zieg does

regal garden Jun 20, 2023, 4:47 PM

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The infrastructure and automation to get a potion that high seems fun though

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All the awkward potion and each unique ingredient and melder setup

sour tartan Jun 20, 2023, 5:31 PM

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Can you make the awkward step 1:1 and keep everything else 2:1/configuable?

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Or is it already

regal garden Jun 20, 2023, 6:57 PM

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crafting the base potion is always 1 :3 like the brewing stand

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so adding a recovery to the spell damage + regen:
Spell Damage 1 + Mana Regen 1 + recovery 1: 5928

with cost:
spell damage 1 + mana regen 1 = 2076 * 2
recovery 1 = 297 * 2
melder cost: 600

~5,350, so only getting a true 600 sauce

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Alright. Made the multiplier 2.1 ^ effectSize if there is more than 1 effect

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So the math works out to
spell damage 1 = 297
spell damage 1 + mana regen 1 = 2288
spell damage 1 + regen 1 + recovery 1 = 6862

sterile thorn Jun 20, 2023, 7:08 PM

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Yay!!

regal garden Jun 20, 2023, 7:08 PM

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about 1400 sauce for a tier 3 potion

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after all the costs are done, but its very high throughput

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and worth way more if you add glowstone or redstone to your potions, since those are before the multiplier

sterile thorn Jun 20, 2023, 7:09 PM

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Wixie factory!

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I'll do that for my next base

regal garden Jun 20, 2023, 7:10 PM

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the buffer is only 20,000 too

sour tartan Jun 20, 2023, 7:41 PM

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Wooo

obsidian depot Jun 20, 2023, 7:46 PM

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hm, so with this in mind, one could design a system to shut down wixies whenever the melded potion jars are... well, any % full. The sourcelink will drink the potion if it can, and if it can't then it will sit there. Just need one comparator watching the final jar, and shut everything off any time there's any potions in it

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most of these potion systems tend to be very expensive resource-wise because people don't put controls on their setups, so you end up with a jar at the end where each dose costs like 16 potions to make and it just fills constantly

sour tartan Jun 20, 2023, 8:02 PM

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Have to do some control anyway if using a single wixie round robin style... Awkward jar will fill up and stop up everything if you don't shut that pedestal off before the jar is full

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Which will happen faster now that melding is 2:1

obsidian depot Jun 20, 2023, 8:09 PM

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eh, that could still lead to situations I'd like to avoid if I'm running this system as my main source production

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I'd rather intentionally shut something off than rely on something jamming down the line somewhere

sour tartan Jun 20, 2023, 8:11 PM

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Yeah that's what I mean... You currently have to do redstone control if you're having a single wixie round robin steps to a single potion cuz she will get stuck on awkward eventually

obsidian depot Jun 20, 2023, 8:11 PM

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ah, I see what you were saying now. Yeah

sour tartan Jun 20, 2023, 8:12 PM

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Luckily it's super simple redstone control haha, but I could see a lot of modded players getting frustrated with it

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Scratch that, no I couldn't... Imagine a lot of modded players actually using potions... (Tho enigmatica 9 expert is kinda forcing them to and it's great haha)

obsidian depot Jun 20, 2023, 8:19 PM

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I wonder if the melders will consume potions as fast as they are being made now? Like if you have 1 melder melding potions from 2 different wixies (and each of those wixies making awkward -> stage 1 potion -> stage 2 potion), will the stage 2 potion jars fill up before the melder can empty it?

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I'm pretty sure the melder was faster before when it ate 6 doses

sterile thorn Jun 20, 2023, 8:21 PM

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I didn't have any controls on my single wixie potion setup

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Because it works round robin, it stops all work when the spell damage potion is full. Doesn't overstock the awkward

obsidian depot Jun 20, 2023, 8:22 PM

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the wixie shouldn't ever have problems... unless it runs out of one of the ingredients for a higher tier potion

sterile thorn Jun 20, 2023, 8:23 PM

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I might need redstone on my farm though. Produces more wart than mage bloom, so it's not balanced

obsidian depot Jun 20, 2023, 8:23 PM

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yeah, like if it ever ran out of mage bloom then the awkward potion jar would fill up and you'd need to manually unclog it

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the only reason it works as long as you have the ingredients is because the only time the wixie gets completely stuck is when she has brewed a potion but has nowhere to put it

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arguably that check could be made before she brews

sterile thorn Jun 20, 2023, 8:25 PM

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When I redo it as a full factory for a 20000 source potion, I'll have one wixie per recipe. Maybe more for the ones that need 8x potions per final output.. but not one wixie with several outputs

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It'll be a factory though, not the little witch hut and garden I have now

#Alchemical Sourcelink Math and thoughts