40k-lore-chat

[gusty fulcrum]

No solstice i mean teh style of how theyed film it

[crisp heath]

exactly

[barren tapir]

It is still an over the board estimate

[crisp heath]

even if it's a %
it's just talking about a hive city, not the entire planet

it is

[open marsh]

@barren tapirSad thing is the Custodes realized they were going to disobey orders anyway and Valarian gave the SoS his dagger....which had a tracker in it so he could go bail her out when she got in over her head

[crisp heath]

but it's the 40k times

propaganda is huge

and "estimated" is the key word

aka bullshitting haha

[vapid tiger]

It's gw trying to reconcile older fluff stating that hive worlds made up 15% of all imperial worlds with the imagery of hive worlds dominating the Imperium

It's been noted by black library authors and studio writers alike that GW has an internal view of 40k's fluff that can differ strongly from fan perceptions due to them never writing certain things down due to them being things GW assumes the fans know

Good example is Abaddon, ADB stated that the writers at GW were shocked when he told some of them about the "failbaddon" meme, since they viewed him internally as "the big scary bad chaos man." So now they've inserted more fluff about the Black Crusades being victories that accomplished their own specific goals - many fans treat it as a retcon, but from GW's perspective it has been this way for a long time, they just forgot to tell fans and assumed they knew

[crisp heath]

yea

[vapid tiger]

I suspect this is a similar case

[crisp heath]

it's not the worst case of "maybe but probably not" anyway

We have worse lore stuff going around

COUGH PERPETUALS

and that's actual lore

:stillmad:

[atomic pelican]

Wait whats thos abt 85% having hive cities

[barren tapir]

No, they have kept the percentage of hive worlds, they just slapped one hive city on most of other planets

[gusty fulcrum]

Honeslty they proabaly have a similar issue as cartoon network

[barren tapir]

#40k-lore-chat message

[gusty fulcrum]

Different heads want vastly different things fromt eh company

[atomic pelican]

Ah

[crisp heath]

plus

[vapid tiger]

I mean it makes sense to me that most Imperial Worlds would have a capital or industrial center that is a hive city

[crisp heath]

let's be real

even if that books says X

that gets retconned like
snap

lol

Ravenor series has a random psyker being an Alpha Class Psyker

which is like
Emperor level
just completely at random

not the first time a book makes lore mistakes that future books will gloss over

[barren tapir]

The problem is that such thing go against the description of many world categories

[odd tulip]

Alpha is rare, but emps and malcador are Alpha+

[crisp heath]

yup

[open marsh]

Fun thing. In Dark Angels HH novels. You see a hive city starting to form on Caliban. Its a reason Luther starts to turn against the Imperium. He sees his beloved Caliban being turned into just another resource pump for an uncaring empire, who will drain it dry and leave its dessicated corpse floating in the void

[crisp heath]

but that's what I mean

[odd tulip]

Which is stupidly dumbass rare- 1 for every ten hive planets kind of rare

[crisp heath]

the Ravenor series being written before the psyker levels

[odd tulip]

and they usually just vaporise themselves before becoming useful

[vapid tiger]

The Imperium is described as basically "burning out" many planets and reducing them to barely habitable husks over millenia - it makes sense that many "standard" Imperial worlds are at the midpoint where they might have one or two hive cities, but they aren't quite hive worlds yet

[crisp heath]

means that it gets fluff wrong

[open marsh]

Hey look. Its that thing I just said. (yes you were typing this while I was. This is not a "first!" post. This is a "we are in agreement" post)

[barren tapir]

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Civilised_World

[crisp heath]

having a book try to describe a "hive city" aka a big capital of mercentalism and connection to the outside space world isn't the worst way to explain stuff

[vapid tiger]

Neat!

[barren tapir]

These are the most common type of world in the imperium, they have vast cities, but no hive cities

[crisp heath]

again

I wouldn't be so hung up about what one book says lol

at worst it's a mistake or a retcon waiting to happen

[vapid tiger]

and according to Urban Conquest most of those worlds have at least one hive city

[crisp heath]

plenty of BL writers make mistakes on the same literal page

( like how one guy gets his hands chopped off, but then dual wields pistols after )

[odd tulip]

Here's your question of the day: Would you rather be an IG conscript or a hiveworld administratum scribe?

[barren tapir]

And i think that is wrong, or a retcon, i just wanna know which

[open marsh]

majority of Imperial worlds are civilized.

majority of imperial population is in hive cities

and even civilized worlds have atleast 1 hive city as its capital

[crisp heath]

That's just wha happens when you have contracted writers

instead of one actual writer

[crisp heath]

uhh hm

depends

Scribe seems safer

but if the world is a shitpile
you're just in a heap of trouble

[open marsh]

hive world admin scribe. Easily

[barren tapir]

Yet nothing point to civilized planets having a hive city, other than that book

[atomic pelican]

Atleast as a conscript you arent liks, trapped

[odd tulip]

Common sentiment is that 85% of imperial worlds have at least one hive, and 10-15% are 'hive worlds'

[open marsh]

Tis what Im saying

[crisp heath]

I think we're just going around the same silly points lol

[gusty fulcrum]

I like commisar cain books

[barren tapir]

I still think that it was an error from the writer

[vapid tiger]

And a hive city can take several different forms so long as it fits the general description - whatever form a given hive on a given world takes can be totally different from another.

[barren tapir]

It go against too much established things

[crisp heath]

could be
couldn't be
In the end, Black Library

When the Black Library has writers like CS Goto

"Too much against things" isn't too much at all

[odd tulip]

Why can't we just clone Dan Abnett again?

[barren tapir]

Had, thanks the emperor

[crisp heath]

cos then 40k would be too based and explode

altho I actually like his comic work too

I think his only objectively bad work was the Ultramarines movie

[barren tapir]

Also it stated hive city cluster, not one hive city, so that become even more weird

[crisp heath]

and that was more the fault of the animation rather than the simple plot

[open marsh]

But yeah.

being an admin scribe > ig conscript.

As an admin scribe, you atleast get food, water, shelter, and relative safety. Can start a family. Live a comparatively easy (if limited) life.

As opposed to an Ig conscript, where you probably wont live to see the end of puberty

[crisp heath]

ye lol

Conscript gets screwed super hard

[odd tulip]

See I actually liked the ultramarines movie, the writing and some scenes were fine. The problem was that the animation dipped in quality way too often

[crisp heath]

imagine being like Dalin Criid

Dude sees a Bloodthirster his first day of active combat

[barren tapir]

So, 85% of imperial worlds have more than one hive city on them

[vapid tiger]

I mean, not really? Hive Cities are very common when writers depict "ground level" life in the Imperium, and there's enough worlds in the Imperium to ensure that there's plenty of outliers.

It interferes with FFG's rpgs the most, but GW official material has always trumped those in terms of "canonicity"

It's just that a lot of fans have a preconceived notion that "most worlds are fine actually" that was given to them by some guy, who got that from some other guy, and so on and so forth

It's an anecdotal fan perception

[barren tapir]

That is BS to me

[open marsh]

Plus being an Admin Scribe is a heredity position, they are so important. So if you can secure one, your entire family line is set

[odd tulip]

I just worry that I might die of boredom as a scribe. I mean, would spend at least 14 hours a day just cataloguing the rations requirements of a war that took place 4 segmentums away and ended 3000 years prior.

[open marsh]

Take it from someone who has been in the military IRL:

FUCK THAT

[crisp heath]

the advantage is that you probably don't know better

so ur fine

[vapid tiger]

"At least one" means one at minimum

Which means it could be just one on most of them

[open marsh]

Give me a government office job over being a soldier any damn day

[crisp heath]

ur too busy trying to survive political corruption

and the dregs of actual society being shit

to really care about most things

[barren tapir]

Nope, it is an hive cluster, not an hive city

So min two

[odd tulip]

wot

[open marsh]

@odd tulipAlso, if you are a low level scribe, you wont be bored. You have gang wars between departments over resources like paper and ink

[crisp heath]

ye lol

[vapid tiger]

Let me find the description of a "hive cluster" it describes, I think it describes "hive clusters" as being a term for "a hive city or any group of settlements that are basically becoming a hive city and for all intents and purposes close enough"

[crisp heath]

plus if you really are bored

[barren tapir]

Min two hives on 85% of imperial worlds...
I have no idea how someone can think this make sense

[crisp heath]

just do some 40k drugs @odd tulip

[open marsh]

[odd tulip]

"Bloods VS Crips" except its "Pens VS mechanical pencils"

[crisp heath]

that's like all 50% of people in Hiveworlds do anyway

[gusty fulcrum]

Man 40k drugs can get crazy

[crisp heath]

@gusty fulcrum
The ravenor "Fleet" drugs was super fucking crazy

[gusty fulcrum]

Wines that make you glwo teh more you drink

[crisp heath]

drugs in the form of chaos :pepega:

literal wtaf

[open marsh]

Its more "Departmento Interious vs Departmento Exportus

[gusty fulcrum]

The fucking brain slugs from futurerama

[open marsh]

[vapid tiger]

Oh, "hive city cluster"

[crisp heath]

then again

40k is crazy

Catachan Face Eaters

literal killer towels

fucking what the

[gusty fulcrum]

They make me laugh

[vapid tiger]

There's hundreds of trillions of imperial guardsmen

Makes sense to me

[crisp heath]

SENTIENT TOWELS

[vapid tiger]

It's also a crazy pulp setting

[crisp heath]

hilarious

[vapid tiger]

Don't think too hard about the logistics

[open marsh]

Only way to survive is to literally cut your own face off before its tethers bury down to your skull

[barren tapir]

I don't get how you made that connection but ok

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya and now theyre a major threat in hive worlds YOU GOTTA BE WARY OF YOUR OWN FUCKING TOWEL IN A HIVE

[crisp heath]

even then you're probably dead

since flaying your own face

[barren tapir]

Did you find the description of hive city cluster?

[open marsh]

Nah there is a guy who did it and survived

[crisp heath]

doesn't seem like a nice experience KEK

[crisp heath]

ye but he has balls of steel

[crisp heath]

Lmao I love how that type of stupidity

makes sense too

[open marsh]

He is a Catachan, Those are standard issue

[crisp heath]

hmm we have rat problems

[open marsh]

[crisp heath]

what if we introduce a highly dangerous, lethal thing to kill the rats?

Surely it won't backfire!

[vapid tiger]

40k has always emphasized being thematic over trying to be hard scifi (it's science fantasy) though sometimes the writers give hard numbers which are almost always awful

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya they brought them offworld as potential way to deal with vermin in hives then of course bred outta control and spread to otehr hives n shit

[crisp heath]

ahaahahhaa
40k writers be like

they conquered the planet in 1 day

[open marsh]

https://tenor.com/view/rick-morty-rick-and-morty-dont-think-about-it-the-answer-is-dont-think-about-it-gif-14133358

[gusty fulcrum]

But the good news is they got rid of the vermin in the intital tests!

[barren tapir]

Are you now trying to justify that BS with WH40K writer being inconsistent?

[crisp heath]

Really? Did they really? How did they conquer a planet in ONE DAY

[vapid tiger]

No definition, it says "hive city cluster"

My educated guess is that a "hive city cluster" could be anywhere from one to three hive cities

[crisp heath]

did everyone literally just fold over and die

[crisp heath]

Tru!

so in that measure, it was a resounding success

I bet the scribe who thought of that pat himself on the back.

[open marsh]

This reminds me of Kudzu vines. They were brought into the south to help with soil erosion....but it had no natural predators/competition. So now its a massive invasive pest plant in the south that we cannot kill off. I can show you where its grown over entire houses

[barren tapir]

A close group of hives is known as a hive cluster.
I only found this, but it isn't cited, so cannot confirm, still it make sense that a cluster is more hive cities near each other, like it is in necromunda

[gusty fulcrum]

The Carnivorous Sand Clam is an aquatic life-world from the planet of Salutation.[1]

This clams lies on the shallow coastal margins where they hunt on semi-aquatic animals. Carnivorous Sand Clam consists of two large serrated valves approximately 2 metres across. Most of the time it spends submerged in the sticky mud. When their victim stamble near the Clam, it feels vibration of creature's movement and suddenly opens, drowing sand and victim to its shell. Though the man is too large for Clam to crash and eat, their poserful jaws could brake the leg or an arm and only destructing of the creature could help the escape.[1]

[vapid tiger]

The writing has always been inconsistent since first edition. It's just that they never tried to give these kinds of statistics before outside of "15% of all Imperial worlds are hive worlds," then decided to go "yeah uh most worlds have hives since that's how we write it since every other world in stories is seemingly a hive world despite them supposedly making up 15% of Imperial worlds"

At worst, it's a retcon, but it doesn't piss me off that much because it's pretty minor and still fits well thematically

[crisp heath]

ye kinda

[gusty fulcrum]

Apperently goats are failry effective

[crisp heath]

Reminder that the Ultramarines Librarian used to be Half Eldar

[vapid tiger]

If that's your definition then okay

[crisp heath]

if they can retcon an ultramarine eldar

[barren tapir]

No, it is not mine, it make sense though

[crisp heath]

they can retcon the definition of a world

and statistics lol

[vapid tiger]

^

[barren tapir]

Ok, if that is your POV then ok

[crisp heath]

specially when they use

ESTIMATED

[barren tapir]

Indeed, and i will wait for that

[vapid tiger]

👍

[gusty fulcrum]

The Cudbear is native to the Death World of Cthelle. Aside from its long claws, teeth and shaggy purple hair the Cudbear looks much like a traditional Terran bear. Its thick fur is particularly adept at protecting the creature from the cold and wet environment of the planet's temperate forest and mountain regions. A natural predator, the Cudbear is extremely dangerous and territorial. It has been known to attack large groups of individuals, even heavily armed individuals, who may wander near its home.[1]

Authorities on Cthelle have reported a few known incidents of the creature climbing aboard out-going spacecraft in search of food and massacring the crews....its the fucking purple people eater

[open marsh]

This

[crisp heath]

damn, nature

you scary

[barren tapir]

Until more sources confirm the 85% of imperial planets have more than one hive city on them i think it is BS

When that will happen i hope we get updated world categories description too

[gusty fulcrum]

Ferro-beasts are fauna native to the mineral-poor planet of Yimbo-bim.[1]

Ferro-beasts resemble armadillo-like creatures, 2 metres long. They are quadripedal and have tough, rough shells.[1]

To live in their harsh conditions, where there is little and insufficient iron quantity in the environment, ferro-beasts have evolved a specialised feeding mechanism to digest ferrous metals directly from mineral ore deposits. For that purpose, the mouth of these creatures are surrounded by short tentacles covered in suckers. The suckers secrete an acidic syrup that turns ferro-ore into a liquid, digestible "soup", that ferro-beasts can eat easily.[1]

To find the metal ores, ferro-beasts have evolved a complex sensory organ to smell ores over a distance of many miles. The presence of pure, refined metals will attract these creatures from a great area around. So ferro-beasts may rampage to eat a landing spacecraft or other metal equipment of sentient species. Ferro-beasts are usually placid creatures but if they smell precious pure metal, they can become insane and rampage, heedless of any danger. In such cases ferro-beasts become dangerous and aggressive.[1]

Originol creature do not steal

[barren tapir]

Gonna love a feral world with two, or more hive cities hugging each other

[vapid tiger]

okay but don't go around telling new fans "most places are fine" regardless

[barren tapir]

That is what the lore say, i that is what i gonna say too

When such things will change what i say will change too

[vapid tiger]

But most places are explicitly not fine

[gusty fulcrum]

And of course the classic grox ,dangourus opurtunistic predator omnivore turned lobotimized cow

[barren tapir]

We know only of those places, but for each of them many others are indeed fine

[crisp heath]

how about

you two make up and just say

It may or may not be fine

who knows

lore contradicts each other so often

both of you are probably right at the same time tbh

lol

[barren tapir]

I have nothing against Krug btw

[vapid tiger]

and thematically it wouldn't make sense for the "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" to be "mostly fine"

It would make more sense for it to be "most places tend to suck but there's some decent places mixed in as exceptions to the rule"

[crisp heath]

o i know
it just seems like a silly point to get stuck over is all

[barren tapir]

I admit that some places are extremely fucked up, like necromunda, but there are other places that are fine

[gusty fulcrum]

Thats kinda how the Commissar Cain novels spin it a bit

[barren tapir]

I mean, we have also pleasure worlds

[vapid tiger]

I've got nothing against blank but he does admittedly raise a red flag

[gusty fulcrum]

THeres also alotta worlds that are about a medival fuedal stage of devlopment

A good few at about our level

[barren tapir]

Eh, my friends called me Silver the Red for quite some time because i raised red flags quite often

[odd tulip]

The lore focuses on places that suck because they are more interesting. Places that dont suck don't make for very good stories unless they are about to immanently suck.

[vapid tiger]

Pleasure worlds are fine, even though the populations tend to be mostly made up of workers who work for the visiting nobility

Still better than living on a lot of other worlds

[gusty fulcrum]

This pretty much

[coarse mirage]

https://tenor.com/view/futurama-neutral-gif-8034848

[odd tulip]

Case in point, Iax, a garden world with what we would consider to be 'normal' cities. It gets absolutely fucked by nurgle and turned into a shithole.

[atomic pelican]

This is what my Cult was based around. Only wish I had bits to make a more armed service workers vibe

[gusty fulcrum]

And they even point out theyre are plenty of planets that see at least a few centuries of peace

[odd tulip]

It's implied that there are many other worlds like Iax in just the ultima segmentum, but we dont hear about them because they dont suck

[crisp heath]

40k in general

[barren tapir]

Elysia, before being invaded by CSM after the great rift was a nice place... Just its trade lines were plagued by space pirates, and elysians were all volunteer btw

[crisp heath]

THE UNIVERSE IS GETTING SUPER FUCKED AND IS BLEAK AND BAD

Meanwhile:

everyone chillaxing, going for some exterminatus and chill

[gusty fulcrum]

Ratlings literally evolved under teh same conditions that made the dodo

[odd tulip]

Big caveat on this is worlds in Imperium nihilus. Cut off from space travel, they are probably very much like pre-imperial terra unless they were already completely self-reliant

[vapid tiger]

I don't want to give off the perception that "all worlds are hellholes with hives with no variety" but simply point out that the despite the variety that is there the Imperium isn't a great place to live in for most of its citizens and a good example of it is GW's own numbers

[gusty fulcrum]

Basicly an easy environment with no natural predators

[open marsh]

Don't forget paradise worlds

[odd tulip]

Paradise worlds are comparatively rare, given that they exist pretty much solely to be vacation places for nobles and despots.

[atomic pelican]

Tbf even if most worlds were 'good', hiveworlders would still makeup the majority of imperial citizens

[vapid tiger]

Ya

[gusty fulcrum]

That part is true

[odd tulip]

Garden and agri worlds are very common and very lovely, but don't get me wrong working there as a peasant still wouldn't be fun

[gusty fulcrum]

As hiveworlds have entire planets worht of populations in a single hive city

[vapid tiger]

Even if it was only 15% of worlds that had hives most of humanity's population would be packed into them

[open marsh]

If anyone wants a depiction of a wealthy (extremely so) civilized world. Read the Eisenhorn series and read about Gudrun

[atomic pelican]

Work m'lord?

[peak hamlet]

Man i really dislike the idea of having a world just for food

[gusty fulcrum]

Even the tau ambasdor who was learning about hiveworlds shit himself

[odd tulip]

I would guess that Hives make up 80% of human population.

[open marsh]

Sotha was cool. Even Guilliman mentioned he'd love to retire there and just be a farmer

[gusty fulcrum]

when he learned how many of us were willoiing to cram ona single plaet

[crisp heath]

tbf that's like the general state of Tau normally--
wait jk

[vapid tiger]

Someone has to feed the hivers something that isn't corpse starch and crayons

[crisp heath]

I must refrain from xenos hating in a serious discussion

[atomic pelican]

Mm grayons

[crisp heath]

( only Eldar are truly fit to be hated 24/7 )

[vapid tiger]

also the description for most agri-worlds from Lords of Silence is great

[atomic pelican]

How will the hiveworlders be able to eat crayons before the valiant space marines do?

[barren tapir]

The thing that sparkled all this was me saying that some imperial world are fine, and that not necessarily a gue'vesa life is always better than an imperial one btw

[gusty fulcrum]

Cuz i think he basicly thought to himself one of the larger Imperial hive worlds has a greater population the the ENTIRE FUCKING TAU EMPIRE

[vapid tiger]

plot twist, the main reason many marine chapters choose from hive worlds is to have an excuse to sample their crayon cuisine

[barren tapir]

Like, i think that Tanith would have been a nice world to live on, if only chaos didn't had to do his fuckery

[crisp heath]

It would've been

[vapid tiger]

It would've been

[crisp heath]

if you liked kind of Welsh inspired names/imagery

[vapid tiger]

That has more story impact

[barren tapir]

Damn chaos, ruiner of nice things

[open marsh]

Lb for lb. Living as a Geu'Vesa is nicer. I'd you are okay with the knowledge that the Tau will 100% throw your entire species to the wolves if it means saving themselves

[odd tulip]

Quote from the Emperor of Mankind, M31

[gusty fulcrum]

And sublty sterilize you to control your poulation over time

[crisp heath]

that's every species in general in 40k

[barren tapir]

I would probably prefer to live on elysia

[atomic pelican]

I think theres a tau orbital city thats bigger than hive cities, and has a massive pop?

[crisp heath]

the only good thing about the Tau is
They're not openly racist

but that's still dumb

lol

[atomic pelican]

I think theyre called like kor vestra

Or just fortress stations

[gusty fulcrum]

No they just subtly control your breeding

[barren tapir]

AH! We have flying hive cities too in the imperum!
I don't stan the imperium btw

[gaunt vector]

pretty much

[crisp heath]

yep lol

tbf the Imperium of Man is kind of the same too

They're perfectly fine with Xenos

[atomic pelican]

When you add that after saying it, it only makes it seem more

[open marsh]

The Imperium does that too. Just not against it's entire species

[gusty fulcrum]

But theyre more for mass breeding

[crisp heath]

if they can control it and slowly exterminate it in time-

ye

ultimately, 40k is really just racial politics

[barren tapir]

Not yet at least... something something 4th sphere something something

[crisp heath]

because you can't have friends with actual aliens

who have different expressions of friendship

[atomic pelican]

Ork racing politics via speed waagh

[crisp heath]

actually I scratch that

[gusty fulcrum]

Thats not for population control so much for idealogical pruging

[crisp heath]

you can have one good alien friend.

It's called
Orks

[odd tulip]

Daily reminder that the Beast had ork political squads

[crisp heath]

Orks are probably the nicest faction when you get down to it

[open marsh]

To the Imperium, there is no difference

[barren tapir]

Wrong it is monke

[atomic pelican]

Jokaero return to monke

[crisp heath]

Just use them as mercenaries to fight people

granted they could just as easily kill you

but at least they're honest about it

[gusty fulcrum]

Yes there is they dont randomnly exterminate a poplation with reason even if its very flmsy reason

[crisp heath]

None of that Eldar bullshit

Hey General Sturn I'll help you fix your titan 🙂

oops you're now dead TEEHEEE

[open marsh]

I didnt say they randomly exterminated a population

[vapid tiger]

nicest faction probably died when the imperium wiped them out for looking funny during the great crusade

[gusty fulcrum]

They dont wipe out apoplatuon for being to big basicly

[crisp heath]

runs off to Dark Crusade

[open marsh]

[vapid tiger]

they killed the poor Blorg

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya what im getting at is they dont wipe a puplation for getting to big but the tau do

[barren tapir]

Interex and diasporex... Damn you great crusade!

[open marsh]

Except for abhumans

[barren tapir]

Also adrantis five, damn you macharius!!

[gusty fulcrum]

And mutants

[crisp heath]

the real confusion is how people think the Tau are "good" tbh

[barren tapir]

Agree

[open marsh]

Mutants dont count, because they are under the same label as xenos: exterminate

[gusty fulcrum]

Cept i think they dont due mass cullings of abhumans

[crisp heath]

even before the retcon of Ethereals being OPENLY FUCKING evil

the Tau were already kinda "sus"

[vapid tiger]

Abhumans are treated more like second class citizens in the Imperium than humans are in the Tau Empire tbh

[vapid tiger]

^

[crisp heath]

Like they were much nicer

and more peacable than other races

[gusty fulcrum]

If you read lore they will tolerate a mutant presence if it makes big part of the actual workforce of a planet

[barren tapir]

They have always been shady

[crisp heath]

but they were certainly a dominating force that still wanted to murderize you

plus even before the retcon

[open marsh]

Humans are treated like second class citizens in the Tau empire. Ever seen anything about one getting the honor of piloting a battlesuit? or having any leadership authority beyond a sergeant of a geu;vesa team?

[crisp heath]

stuff like Commander Farsight was already a big red flag

[open marsh]

[crisp heath]

Commander Farsight is probably the only "good' Tau

[barren tapir]

Is this a joke on his colours?

[crisp heath]

subtle- ( but yes it was half a joke )

https://tenor.com/view/commander-farsight-warhammer40k-tau-empire-tau-gif-16294167

[atomic pelican]

Tfw you have segregated planets, somehow even more than the actual empire

Still good guy

[crisp heath]

I'm just saying
If your society is super good
why would your best commander split away from you

yknow

[atomic pelican]

We live in a society

[crisp heath]

and then why would you purge every part of his mention in your history

[gusty fulcrum]

The tau have literally bred their own people into subspecies of each otehr

[open marsh]

I have. And its less they are a big part of the workforce and more that they arent enough of a problem to justify the resources to exterminate at that time. So they corral them into segregated sectors of the cities so that they can be easily exterminated at a later time

[barren tapir]

Farsight is such a good guy that he go to help other tau even knowing that they will try to capture him

[atomic pelican]

They already were, pre-empire

[barren tapir]

I can respect that

[crisp heath]

plus, when you think about it

[gusty fulcrum]

But its impleid they could interbreed

[crisp heath]

The Tau and the Imperium are just two sides of the same coin anyawy

[open marsh]

@storm jungle

Imagine someone thinking i havent read the lore

[atomic pelican]

They still can.

[crisp heath]

They're both basically fanatically zealous

[atomic pelican]

Just not legally

[crisp heath]

just over different things lol

[atomic pelican]

Shadowsun's parents are different castes

[gusty fulcrum]

But its not allowed further defining the breeds down the generations

[crisp heath]

One worships a dead skeleton on a big chair

[vapid tiger]

They've always been shady, but I do think writers like Phil Kelly went way too hard on that. It should be more subtle - the Tau Empire, and the ethereals specifically, are supposed to be master manipulators. I'd be nice if the tau (ethereals) were written in a way closer to that one story from xenology than as cartoon villains - where something is sus, but you can see why people join up with them

[crisp heath]

the other worships a random gray dude

[atomic pelican]

Yeah but they were already subspecies

[crisp heath]

Same
I think them being openly evil was really weird as a choice

[barren tapir]

The tau follow a hologram on a levitating chair

[atomic pelican]

Also yeah Phil Kelly p much shitrd on the tau

[vapid tiger]

Yes, but on Necromunda Ogryns are literal slaves

[atomic pelican]

Aunva the vocaloid

[open marsh]

They worship a dead guy who is now just a hologram AI.

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya but its implied its gotten more exagereted unde rthe ethereals rule

[atomic pelican]

Is it?

[crisp heath]

https://tenor.com/view/anime-vocaloid-dance-dancing-rin-len-miku-gif-11955757

tbf

[vapid tiger]

It's not as interesting as them just being really sus

[crisp heath]

if someone went up to me and said
"This is your god now"

I'll be like
Sure

gimme hologram waifus any day

[storm jungle]

You were the one that admitted it not me

and you still dont know a lot of it clearly

[vapid tiger]

Speaking of Phil Kelly and Tau

[open marsh]

You just salty that I dont like Eldar

[atomic pelican]

Phil Kelly made farsight

[open marsh]

[storm jungle]

Im really not

[atomic pelican]

Ultimate betrayal but good

[storm jungle]

you are the one pinging me

lmao

[crisp heath]

best head canon-

[vapid tiger]

yes but then he ruined him

[atomic pelican]

Tru

Kelly ruined all the tau do

So

[crisp heath]

hey he didn't ruin Farsight that much

worst thing about him is probably that he's dead or smth

[barren tapir]

WHAT?!

Farsight dead?

[vapid tiger]

I'd prefer if the enclaves were an actual dilemma rather than like

"The enclaves are good, tau empire bad"

[gusty fulcrum]

From what i can find online it seems it actaully kinda up in the air whether they can stil interbreed

Cuz its so strictly controlled

[barren tapir]

Damn, farsight dead isn't good

[gusty fulcrum]

no ones been able to put it to the test

[barren tapir]

He is chad tau

[crisp heath]

possible
Not confirmed

[open marsh]

Wut. Farsight isnt dead.

[vapid tiger]

Like, in earlier lore the main difference was that Farsight was incredibly racist and jaded

[crisp heath]

but that's the idea iirc with Farsight

[open marsh]

[crisp heath]

that the guy who uses the weeaboo sword

[atomic pelican]

Its p explicitly stated that Shadowsun had a fire caste father and a earth caste mother iirc

[crisp heath]

might not be the "original" Farsight

since he pretty much disappeared for a while

[gusty fulcrum]

Ima have to look this up as im not familair with shadwsuns backstory

[barren tapir]

Yeah, farsight, the only tau that like melee

[open marsh]

He is. He went on a personal exile to clear his head. Kinda like Abbadon did

[crisp heath]

dude is still super cool tho

[atomic pelican]

I believe It was in uhh

[barren tapir]

And has a big sword

[atomic pelican]

Her book. Last of something?

[crisp heath]

ye
I'm just waiting for uhh
"Confirmation"

[atomic pelican]

I forgot

[crisp heath]

since we know he went away
but came back

but iirc it's not confirmed if it's explicitly him

or someone who took up his name

[open marsh]

A confirmation....of what is already confirmed>

[crisp heath]

I'd personally like it if that was the truth tbh

👁️

means that his Tau have some actual balls and don't like spooky ethereal magic

( and that he's not the only tau who likes using sords )

[open marsh]

Like did you forget the point in the recent lore where Farsight briefly allied with the main Tau to deal with a larger threat and met up with an Ethereal and Shadowsun....in person?

[crisp heath]

Didn't read that I think 🤔 Might have to cehck that

[open marsh]

Ill find the source

[crisp heath]

sure!

[vapid tiger]

I'd be nice to have that kind of return and have the conflict between the Tau Empire and Farsight be that the Tau are naive and stretching themselves thin, while the Enclaves are more jaded but way less accepting

Rather than "the ethereals are cartoon villains and farsight broke free"

Especially since the Enclaves aren't much better in terms of being controlling, they even split their worlds up based on castes

[atomic pelican]

Remember when Farsight was the turboracist of the tau?

Pepperidge farm remembers

[storm jungle]

He isnt anymore?

[atomic pelican]

Sort of

He got kinda washed

[gusty fulcrum]

Well if you find it let me know cuz im not having any luck online findign stuff about her parents

[open marsh]

From the story: Blood Oath
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/8c7na5/book_excerptblood_oath_shadowsuns_impromptu/

[crisp heath]

I'll give it a read
thanks fren

[vapid tiger]

He still technically is but they've leaned into him being more of a shonen anime protagonist for some reason

[open marsh]

Wait wrong link

Brain derpped (Im going like 5 things at once here)

[crisp heath]

take ur time

no rush
This is just 40k lore kek

and Darktide's not getting here any sooner

[atomic pelican]

I may have just misremembered tbh. I think it was in Last of Kiru's line, but its been so long ago

[crisp heath]

so we have all the time in the world to meme with (bad) lore

[atomic pelican]

I stopped keeping track of the tau lore I digested awhile ago fhdh

[storm jungle]

mood for most neglected factions in general tbh

[atomic pelican]

P much

[storm jungle]

[barren tapir]

Are you leaning more on jeanstealer now?

[atomic pelican]

Not going to keep track of factions writers are hellbent on ruining lest a direction changws

[barren tapir]

Or DE?

[atomic pelican]

Thus the name!

DE?

Oh no thats elf

I just know drukhari stuff via proximity

[crisp heath]

Dark Elf aka

really broken and overpowered

[gusty fulcrum]

Lol the only thing i can find is basicly she was the daughter of a priviliged family basicly nobility

[storm jungle]

[crisp heath]

thank god they're too busy violating each other to violate the known universe.. too much.

[barren tapir]

Dark eldar but yeah, the bad guys

[atomic pelican]

They have some of the best xeno books tbh

Path of the deldar puts thorpe to shame

[crisp heath]

Can't Vect summon a black hole if he feels like it

[gusty fulcrum]

And apperently beign family is apart of teh privilage

[crisp heath]

he just kinda doesn't want to atm

[storm jungle]

He can pretty much summon anything tbh

[atomic pelican]

The Black Hole Coffin™️

[storm jungle]

LOL

[crisp heath]

yea that's what I rmeember lol

the ultimate overpowered evil villain moment

[storm jungle]

hes the most pretentious asshole in the setting

[crisp heath]

I CAN
.... but I don't feel like it rn

[atomic pelican]

Vect destroyed a entire subrealm of the webway to do a lil trolling

[crisp heath]

ehh coming back from the dead does that to you I guess xd

[gusty fulcrum]

He doesnt summon it he gifts it to you ina lovely wrapping

[storm jungle]

Oh no that changed nothing

[crisp heath]

https://tenor.com/view/cats-we-do-a-little-trolling-trolling-troll-lightsaber-gif-20907405

[storm jungle]

he always was a dick

[open marsh]

There is a line in the back of my head where the ethereal is like "It is some's place to lead" (referring to himself) "and it is other's place to serve" (referring to the fire warriors), and Farsight about came unglued right there if it wasnt for Shadowsun acting as a mediating factor

[crisp heath]

Dark Eldar in general are just huge dicks

love how they're like

[atomic pelican]

Wish Vect got a new model

I miss the Dais

[crisp heath]

Mm well we can get by just cloning stuff and feeding off their pain...
But it's much more fun when it's sentient-- 👁️

[storm jungle]

his naked metal slaves were too much

[atomic pelican]

Rip

[crisp heath]

Sure sure
no rush
Interesting though

[gusty fulcrum]

Apperently they only saved the one craftworld with all teh wraigthgaurd cuz tehy thought theyre emo suffering was hilarious

[atomic pelican]

The worst part is that they couldve just made a new model

[crisp heath]

I remember his Dark Crusade Dais of Destruction

[atomic pelican]

But instead they stopped production AND cut his rules support

[crisp heath]

er
Soulsstorm*

he just has a HO LODDA HOES

[storm jungle]

And incubus in trenchcoats

[crisp heath]

Didn't they do it for lie

spirit stones for his castigators

or w/e

[storm jungle]

Yeah in the trilogy

its one of the plot twists

[crisp heath]

I save u from tyranids
U give me a lot of spirit stones for... reasons 👀

[gusty fulcrum]

Nope i guess just their lament of havign to rely on wraiguard was fucking funny

[crisp heath]

kek

[storm jungle]

i mean they werent even wraithguards

[crisp heath]

The ultimate plot twist is something like

[storm jungle]

it was like uh

a dollar store version of them

[crisp heath]

Dark Eldar are just Tzeentch playthings or w/e

[storm jungle]

constantly suffering lmao

[atomic pelican]

Honestly if you enjoy eldar at all atm, drukhari are the way to go.

Since they actually Win

[crisp heath]

Vect was never powerful
He was just manipulated by Tzeentch to have a fantasy of him being the OG top dog

[storm jungle]

[crisp heath]

that's some actual Kaldor Draigo weird shit

[atomic pelican]

Hhuh

Vects legit powerful tho

[crisp heath]

I know haha

[atomic pelican]

Also I wonder whats gonna happen with dark muse vect

[crisp heath]

It's just one of those out of the blue plot twists that seem hilarious

[storm jungle]

I remember thinking that too

Then the 9th ed codex had no new lore on it

it had good rules for the tabletop players at least i guess

[atomic pelican]

Yee rules schlapped

I imagine for something that big, it'll be in a actual book or smthin

[coarse mirage]

Woa

listening to this book here and the AI Cawl is talking about the stability of geneseed in Primaris with Guilliman

[storm jungle]

do you mean Cawl's Answering Machine™️

[coarse mirage]

2nd, 3rd, 4th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 20th legions

"shown no sign of degradation or unwelcome tendencies"

in experimental subjects

[barren tapir]

?? What about the first? They too should be stable

[coarse mirage]

20th is Alpha Legion

2nd is one of those lost

[barren tapir]

11th should be one of the lost too iirc

[coarse mirage]

3rd is Emperor's Children, 4th is Iron Warriors, 8th Night Lords, 11 is one of the lost yeah

Well it's all the traitors anyway

[barren tapir]

Aaah, so it is the part where Cawl try to convince big G to use that geneseed

[coarse mirage]

Yeah

[frosty cobalt]

id imagine big g would be welcome to at least using the 4th cause silver skulls and all

[coarse mirage]

Guilliman remarks to himself that he doubts Cawl really needs his approval

[open marsh]

@crisp heathAAAAAAAAAAAAA brain is being square. Im remembering everything else about the story except the source name

I remember this excerpt:

‘Enough!’ said Commander Farsight, his voice rising. ‘Save your manipulations, Aun’Va. I am not here for debate. My forces have, for the moment, saved those Tau trapped upon this planet. But the shock of my initial attack is gone, and the enemy is not. If we want to leave this world alive, then we must now work together... for the Greater Good.’```

FOUND IT

Warzone Damocles: Mont'Ka

There's your confirmation that Farsight is the real Farsight

[crisp heath]

interesting

thanks @open marsh

https://tenor.com/view/tts-warhammer-warhammer40k-the-emperor-slaanesh-gif-16325706

[open marsh]

[gaunt vector]

wait Cawl was messing with the 2nd and 11th?????????

[coarse mirage]

Yeah

[gaunt vector]

nice

[coarse mirage]

Notes that in experimental subjects the geneseed has been made stabile

And Guilliman thinks his weird pet Astartes is creepy

[open marsh]

Yes

More supplimental evidence that the Soul Drinkers are 11th legion successors

[gaunt vector]

what is the theory behind that claim?

I've not come across that one before

[open marsh]

Well they are 2nd founding imperial fists, only that they are confirmed via gene testing to not be of Dorn's geneline. And it turns out that Dorn harbored lost legion survivors as well as Guilliman

[gaunt vector]

oh

I forgot about their test but did not know about the 11th being hidden in the 7th

[open marsh]

And there is alot of other stuff that Im skipping over here because it would be a wall of text comparable to a conspiracy theory board. But the summary is that their primarch is hinted to have been strong in the warp fuckery department. Which is not something noted with the II Primarch

[gusty fulcrum]

Didnt they also allude to it being a survivor of the lost primarches?

[open marsh]

huh?

[gusty fulcrum]

The souls drinkers

Is been awhle since i read but dont people also suspect them being from one of the lost legions

[open marsh]

Thats what we were just talking about

[gusty fulcrum]

oh i was thinking you were aluuding them beign thousand sons

misread

also forgot that the 11th is one of the missing

I know the 20th is one of missing but i always forget the second one

[open marsh]

the 20th is Alpahrius Omegon

[gusty fulcrum]

welp fuck i guess i jsut keep forgetting whos what in the numbers then

[open marsh]

I think you mean the 2nd

[barren tapir]

2 and 11

So you were half correct, just with a 0 too much

[open marsh]

And from the short story "the Last Council" we know that one of their names is "Malal"

[gusty fulcrum]

Some suspected he was also gonna say Malcador

[open marsh]

Those people havent read the story

[gusty fulcrum]

from what ive read online bout it

[open marsh]

so dont know that makes 0 sense in context

[gusty fulcrum]

Like one of the lost is named after malcador himself

[coarse mirage]

Oh shit

Coincidence?

[open marsh]

Probably a reference.....and maybe a hint to what happened to him

[gusty fulcrum]

Well its implied the two skulls chillin in malcadors personal chair or whatevere where the two primarchs skulls

Not known for sure but more like context clues i guess

[open marsh]

Thats been pretty debunked. since they are the same size as a normal human skull. Its more that they are there as a kind of memorial.

@gusty fulcrumThis should help you understand the context

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/a5i17d/excerptthe_last_councilhorus_confront_malcador/

Note that at no point does Horus relent or stop trying to say the Primarch's name

He doesnt beg for mercy. He doesnt quit

Even when Malcador is about to delete him. Horus refuses to give up

And at first Malcador was just giving him a warning (even if its a psychic strangle hold)

Until Horus says "M-Mal… al…"

Then Malcador got really pissed

[gusty fulcrum]

I guess i just interpreted it as him still possibly struggling to finish the word

Cuz i figured it was one or the other

[coarse mirage]

Malcador doing SoS thought sign

[gusty fulcrum]

Cuz if it was malcador that woulda made for an interesting backstory dynamic

[open marsh]

There may have been more to the name. Sort of like how Magnus's full name is "Magnus the Red"

Or how Dorn's name is "Rogal Dorn"

O the word "Malal" was likely just the first name. Not his full name

[gusty fulcrum]

Horus Lupercal

[barren tapir]

I think what "angered" malcador was that horus still tried to speak, when malcador told him to kepp his mouth shut

[gusty fulcrum]

I like how only a couple have sigle names though

Like FUlgrim is just FUlgrim

Actaully dont only like three have single names?

[coarse mirage]

Lots of great parenting going on

[gusty fulcrum]

Angron,Fulgrim, Perterabo

[open marsh]

This is what sets the seed of fear and doubt in Horus's mind that the Chaos Gods nurture until he turns traitor

It was this interaction that makes him fully aware of just how easily he and his legion could be deleted entirely, even from history

[gusty fulcrum]

Yes the root of chaos is truly bad parenting

[open marsh]

Its also another link to the Lost Primarchs. When Dorn remembers what happened to them, he comments that their fates seemed like a warning of the coming civil war.

[gusty fulcrum]

Yes thanks to the horus heresy novels the history of 40k has become very cyclic and forshadowy

I mean dont get me wrong theyre still good

But i think the kinda set a precedence

[open marsh]

Well less foreshadowing. And more that the fate of the Lost Primarchs caused a dominoe effect that lead to the Horus Heresy

Didnt foreshadow it, it, in a way, directly caused it

[gusty fulcrum]

I wouldnt be surprised if the ever told the story though itd have a lotta forshwdwing

Like one of them is basicly Proto Traitor horus or soem shit

[open marsh]

[DATA REDACTED] happens, Malcador and Big E delete the records of the II and XI legions/primarchs, Horus confronts Malcador, Malcador about deleted him too, Horus fears being deleted, Lorgar does the dumb, Big E burns Monarchia, Lorgar fears getting deleted, turns to Chaos, sends Erebus to turn Horus, Chaos Gods prey on Horus's doubts and fears. The Heresy happens

[coarse mirage]

And apparently because Horus thinks all these stinking humans shouldn't be allowed to touch them or their history

[open marsh]

Because he fears being forgotten

[gusty fulcrum]

Well i mean horus kinda kept saying that was his fear of deletion but the also brought up the thunder worriors in his perspective of beign forgotten

[open marsh]

Yeah he found out about them too, but it wasnt until the 2nd and 11th primarchs got deleted did he realize that he (as a primarch / the emperor's own son) could be just as easily deleted

[gusty fulcrum]

So i think they imply its kinda both the censure of the lost and the disposal of the thunder worriors along with civvies superseding his command

that inspires his fears of being forgotten or delted from history along with his complex of not being good enough at the warmaster thing

cuz remeber the thing with the Interex hit him really hard too

[open marsh]

Yeah, but this scene with Malcador happens before then

[gusty fulcrum]

cuz he so wanted to show he could be a diplomat and not jsut a conquerer

[coarse mirage]

THey shouldve all just been Custodes

[gusty fulcrum]

Honestly he shoulda just used the custodes as more aof bp for his armies

then trying the primarch thing

[coarse mirage]

Primarchs seem so incomplete and unreliable

[gusty fulcrum]

Well i think alotta that is the result of the parenting

[open marsh]

Im aware. Like I said, he knew about the Thunder Warriors. But he didnt think too much of it, because he felt safe that as the Emperor's son, he couldnt be so easily erased....right?

No. Then the lost primarchs got deleted and Horus realized that he had no real...well....job security. And so he then started to fear that he and his legion would be Thunder Warrior'd too after the Great Crusade. So wanted to prove that he and his legion had other uses

[coarse mirage]

well maybe if they hadnt been thrown out into the galaxy he couldve been a dad to them when they grew up

[gusty fulcrum]

I guess its very much up for debat

[open marsh]

Except for the Lion

[gusty fulcrum]

Cuz on one hadn there plenty showing he had plans to treat them as people

Like he had a whole like lving situation set up ina mountain

[coarse mirage]

Lion and his Paranoia Legion

[gusty fulcrum]

But when he talks to people he talks about tehm as tools

[open marsh]

Which is by design.

Its why Big E could entrust them with shit he didnt trust any other legion with

[storm jungle]

looks at the state of Caliban

clearly

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya part of teh reason teh proabably seem incomplete and stuff is cuz each was suppose to be made for certain role that the emperor himself would oversee their training in

But then chaos and ac ertain mom figure stpped in

[open marsh]

But the Lion himself turned out exactly as a Primarch was intended to be. Especially being uncorruptable.

Like when Chaos tried to corrupt him when he was just a boy in the forest of Caliban. Even without knowing what it was, he told it "No"

[gusty fulcrum]

Meh

not entirly

Cuz he had his share of flaws

He was the first legion so his role was proabaly to be the entrusted ones

[open marsh]

What flaws?

[gusty fulcrum]

Well his people skills werent that great

he had massive pride

Liek alions pride obviosly

[open marsh]

He wasnt designed for that. And all the primarchs were prideful. Big E was prideful.

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya but they could psuh it down

[open marsh]

So could the Lion

[gusty fulcrum]

From what i read he would broke no insult

Or anything

[coarse mirage]

has there been anything new on Farsight?

[barren tapir]

Not as sight can see

[open marsh]

He would shrug things off if it would cause problems to bow up at. Otherwise, no. He wouldnt just take an insult in stride.

[gusty fulcrum]

Lotta stuff is saying he basicly had no ability to read people

Cuz hes ya know a wildman

[open marsh]

His ability to keep his pride in check is why Big E trusted him so much

[gusty fulcrum]

So he doesnt get social subleties

[slow prawn]

Yeah…then he slapped Nemiel’s face off for disagreeing with him

And made it so other Dark Angels were hesitant about disagreeing with him

[gusty fulcrum]

^

stuff liek tat

[storm jungle]

[open marsh]

Okay? Ever seen how the Imperium ran things during the great crusade? Immediate execution was a common punishment for disagreeing with a superior

[coarse mirage]

Autistic Primarch

[gusty fulcrum]

Its stilla flaw

[slow prawn]

But that’s like exactly the opposite of what you said, taking things in stride

[open marsh]

.....

[gusty fulcrum]

Im not wrong

[open marsh]

......

[slow prawn]

Plus I would expect that behavior out of Angron

[storm jungle]

Ah shit here we go again

[gusty fulcrum]

cuz even otehr primarchs were like what the shit when he did stuff like tat\

[open marsh]

...........

[gusty fulcrum]

I mean look at the situation with Leman

[storm jungle]

dont do it spook

[gusty fulcrum]

He completly misread Lemans intentions

[storm jungle]

you're gonna get more dots

[open marsh]

Im scared to know if you have ever read how the Imperial military operated before the primarchs were discovered

[gusty fulcrum]

When he started laughing

[open marsh]

[gusty fulcrum]

So?

they were fucked too

[open marsh]

It was doctrine implimented by the Emperor....

[gusty fulcrum]

I mean hey the emperor was flipfloppy on how much he liked his primarchs displaying humanity

Cept for Vulcan

[slow prawn]

Personally I would think Lion would just completely ignore Nemiel until after the battle

[storm jungle]

Yeah killing him on the spot felt pretty stupid to me

[open marsh]

And if you think the Lion had pride to the point of flaw. That really tells me you havent read his fluff. But read the summary of someone else who has only read a a little of his fluff

[gusty fulcrum]

Cuz hes the only one the emperor cimplemented for his humanity and that was his role in teh primarchs

[slow prawn]

And there’s also the thing where he gave Perturabo big ass siege guns for his vote for Warmaster

[storm jungle]

God that still kills me every time tho ngl

its so Looney Tunes

especially iirc Pert just having a shit eating grin during the entire thing

[slow prawn]

Fucking Perturabo played him

[open marsh]

 ‘He knows that I would have attended had I been able,’ the Lion replied, a tone far sharper than any he had ever before employed in the presence of his father.
 ‘You are troubled,’ said the Emperor.
 ‘The Imperium celebrates, but its Triumph is empty. The galaxy is not won because Horus has his great victory.’
 ‘Recall my words to you – Ullanor is just another victory.’
 ‘Then why the pageantry?’
 ‘Some men demand such pomp. They cannot accept the end of one era and the commencement of another without an occasion by which to mark it and give it meaning. Laurels must be given, honours and fair titles invented so that they may be bestowed upon favoured generals. Some men need recognition.’ The shadows around the Emperor’s throne deepened. But beneath the layers of obfuscation, deep within the myriad guises of that singularly unfathomable being, the Lion felt the Emperor behold His firstborn son.
 ‘Some men,’ the Emperor continued, ‘do not.’```

[storm jungle]

Look he likes playing with his toys

[gusty fulcrum]

Lion El'Jonson - superiority complex, sense of entitlement, too secretive.

[slow prawn]

Honestly I think the problem here is that there’s so many different versions of the Lion out there

[storm jungle]

Yeah this

every primarch is suppose to be flawed

thats kinda the point of the heresy lol

[slow prawn]

All the stuff Medic has is new

[open marsh]

......you really need to actually read his fluff

[storm jungle]

Bruh

[slow prawn]

Dude!

[gusty fulcrum]

The primarchs are suppose to be the best and worst of himanities virtues and flaws

[storm jungle]

he literally made a space marine inquisition INSIDE his legion, thats not being too secretive?

or like... unecessary?

[slow prawn]

Literally in the exact book you’re quoting he’s secretive

[gusty fulcrum]

I read the angels novels

[open marsh]

He and the Dark Angels were designed to do that. They were that secretive before reuniting with the Lion

[gusty fulcrum]

The legions itself fatal flaw is being to sevetive and paranoid

that comes from him

[slow prawn]

He doesn’t tell anyone his plans for dealing with the Khrave

[storm jungle]

its fine he was Designed™️ to do that

[gusty fulcrum]

Its literally in teh deathwatch rpg as the dark angels chapter flaw

so at the very least Johnson was paranoid fuck to teh point of being uncooperative

[open marsh]

Read the DA fluff from before they were reunited with the Lion

When they were under the direct command of the Emperor

[slow prawn]

They were definitely secretive, but also their pride was a huge fault

They literally lost two grand masters

First one was because they overlooked a threat of xenos

Second they couldn’t stand being one of many legions and kept throwing themselves at dangerous threats heedlessly

[gusty fulcrum]

Lion El'Jonson was renowned for a level of strategic brilliance and martial prowess that was rivaled perhaps only by Horus, but was distrusted by his brother Primarchs for his secretive and taciturn nature

[open marsh]

If you think pride was a flaw. then you must think every force in the galaxy is flawed in the exact same manner

[gusty fulcrum]

Theres such a thing as having to much pride

[open marsh]

Im aware of that, but that wasnt a flaw. Its what he was made to do

[slow prawn]

It can be!

[gusty fulcrum]

Doesnt mean it wouldnt be flaw from anotehrs perspective

[slow prawn]

Even if that’s how he was made

[open marsh]

The whole point I was making is that the Lion turned out exactly as the Emperor intended him to be

[gusty fulcrum]

I would find it a flaw in sombeody if the could never be honest with me

[slow prawn]

He did. It’s just that perhaps that way wasn’t perfect

Which is fine

[gusty fulcrum]

Or ya what sanctus is saying

[storm jungle]

Yeah im pretty sure this is just from like 5 books contradicting themselves too lol

[open marsh]

If pride was his flaw and not as the Emperor intended him to be, then the DA wouldnt have been just as they were when they were lead by Big E personally

[storm jungle]

So this entire thing of "the lion should act like this" is kinda pointless in the long run for the most part.

[gusty fulcrum]

Cuz as we all know The Empoere for all his power and godlike ability really didnt get the normal humans condition

[open marsh]

Also, again, look to the excerpt I posted of the Emperor acknowledging that the Lion isnt prideful. He doesnt require recognition or accolades. As he put it himself:

"Loyalty is its own Reward"

[gusty fulcrum]

So ya from a human perspective alotta the primarchs for all the superness also had glaring flaws from a human perspective

[storm jungle]

That and writing omnipotent characters is hard and leads to bad writing

[slow prawn]

Personally I don’t think Pride was his flaw, I think it was him being too distrustful and disdainful

[gusty fulcrum]

This

[open marsh]

[slow prawn]

Lion dealt very badly with his subordinates sometimes

[gusty fulcrum]

And otehrs

I think his encounter with leman once again is good example of this

Leman thought it was a scuff amongst brotehrs

Lion thought it was dual for honour

[storm jungle]

Didnt he punch Leman in the face after it was over too?

[open marsh]

Sometimes i wish I didnt read to much of the lore. So when convos devolve into mutual agreements based on misunderstandings, then i could just agree too and not be given a migraine when I try to explain stuff that otherwise takes entire books to explain

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya cuz he thought leman was mocking him for luaghin

[gusty fulcrum]

Leman started laughing at the ridiculessness of the fight but the lion thought he was mocking him further

[storm jungle]

awww

so my memory is correct on that i guess

it was just a prank

[slow prawn]

Exactly what happened

“God why are we fighting? It’s stupid.”
“Stop making fun of me!” knocks him out cold

[gusty fulcrum]

And leman actually felt hurt that his brother misinterpreted the situation so badly

[storm jungle]

Leman felt bad about something?

[gusty fulcrum]

from my undertstanding yes

[storm jungle]

:prosperoburning:

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya if your read the interanl dialgue for both magnus and leman neither were happy bout that

Cuz even magnus could sense leman wanted to give him chances but ol one eye wanted to eb emo weinnie instead

[open marsh]

Yall do know it was Russ who started that fight

Because the Lion beat him to a kill that Russ had wanted to make

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya he started it but he thought he was getting into fight with his BROTHER

[slow prawn]

He wasn’t going to kill Lion

[gusty fulcrum]

Not an honour duel to the death

[slow prawn]

He just wanted to knock some sense into him

“That was my kill, back down!”

[storm jungle]

He'd buy him some mjod right after

[gusty fulcrum]

Once again Leman viewed all of them as family

[storm jungle]

minus Magnus

[slow prawn]

Lion meanwhile probably thought Russ wanted to kill him

[gusty fulcrum]

Know he just thought he was the nerd brother who wouldnt listen

[slow prawn]

He grew up extremely paranoid in a forest full of beasts and duels were everything on Caliban

[gusty fulcrum]

I dont think he thought it was outright to the death but he thought it was a matter of honour

[open marsh]

Also it was the Lion who first said that killing that target wasnt some children's game or competitive sport

[slow prawn]

Fair post

[open marsh]

He was an enemy VIP, so he eliminated him

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya but Leman called dibs first

and you dont do that when ya call dibs

and techincally the guy bismircthed Lemans honour first

[open marsh]

Again, as the Lion pointed out. It wasnt some game. He wasnt there to play sports

he was there to eliminate an enemy

[gusty fulcrum]

So its hypocritacal for Lion to think it was an honour dual after the fact

[gusty fulcrum]

That also goes to show his inability to read what russ was gettign at

[slow prawn]

Plus what always gets me is that the DA literally went after every other target but the guy, but still beat Russ to him

[gusty fulcrum]

And the fight also started cuz lion did not handle teh discussion well

and he did not try to get Leman is a fucking viking and that shit means something to them

[open marsh]

Kinda hard to "understand" when Russ punched him in the chest first and started a multiday long brawl

[storm jungle]

https://media.tenor.com/images/64c5b4b219dc056e7010aa84eadeb690/tenor.gif

[gusty fulcrum]

basicly

im not saying either one was in the right

but it still points out how John doesnt read situations well

[storm jungle]

Yeah pretty much

both of them are immature assholes for the most part

[open marsh]

Not many of yall have been in many fights, have you?

[storm jungle]

Ugh

[gusty fulcrum]

Im not talking bout the fight

Once again russ made a very loud an clear statement he was goign for this guy

and John took teh kill then tried to tell him off coming across as condescending

[open marsh]

And once again the Lion said he wasnt playing childish games of sport. This was war, not some fox hunt in the fields

[storm jungle]

Oh my god

drop it already

[gusty fulcrum]

Yes and thats what pissed leman off

[cerulean wagon]

you've obviously not had siblings nuclear

[storm jungle]

i swear you know its bad when its "nuh uh that primarch did it first"

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya dude most of this should be understandle if youve ever gotten into fights with a brotehr

[storm jungle]

I have 3 older brothers than me and i can confirm its pretty much normal

[atomic pelican]

What if we were both battle brothers and you punched me 😳

[open marsh]

Would you rather me reiterate my disdain for the Eldar and start a discussion on why, despite having read their lore, i still have a disdain for them on a basic level because my disdain arises from my general hatred of cocky elves than it does the Eldar specifically?

[cerulean wagon]

2 brothers and 2 sisters

[storm jungle]

No because its a dead horse

so please

spare me

😢

[cerulean wagon]

"no i cant be wrong otherwise i'll hate eldar more"

[atomic pelican]

[storm jungle]

or that yeah

its a boring argument

[open marsh]

I have a sister

Who, I both love and fucking hate

[gusty fulcrum]

Well see thats a sister

this is two brotehrs

where one stole the win from the otehr

[open marsh]

Like. If she were to call me and ask for my help to hide a body. Im just showing up with construction lime and shovels. Im not asking questions.

But I dont want her breathing my air longer than is necessary

[storm jungle]

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya but do you throw your sister through tables and walls

[open marsh]

We fought when we were younger. Like then time she threw swamp mud in my eyes and it hurt like hell

[gusty fulcrum]

and then she suplexes you

Pfft

i had my bro punch tooth outta my head

and he didnt even mean too

and that was playfighting

[open marsh]

That was more like my and my friend mason in high school

First time we fought, he slammed my head into a brick wall and i broke a chair across his head

[gusty fulcrum]

Well now picuter him as your blood brother and maybe itll make more sense

Cuz have you guys ever fought cuz one of you called dibs on soemthing but the otehr was liek fuck you i dotn care?

[open marsh]

Yeah. if I were to tell him to back down, he didnt, started a fight, and then just started laughing out of no where. That'd piss me off even more

[gusty fulcrum]

Well see you Johnson

then

and he was your leman

But your btter then John cuz you satyed around him

[open marsh]

Even in the story. Lion asked Russ if he was calling off the fight

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya but he didnt give him chance to reply

[open marsh]

and instead of just saying yes. Russ started laughing

[gusty fulcrum]

cuz russ was just laughing to hard

Ya cuz it occored to him that they were fighting over soemthing ridiculass

[open marsh]

the pain speared across his ribs. ‘Hel’s teeth, brother,’ he spat,
blood speckling his vox-grille. ‘What are we doing here?’
The Lion swayed, standing over him, drowned in the heavy rain.
Lightning crackled down the fortress’ long sides, stained red by the
fires.
‘You yield?’ asked the Lion.
‘I… do I what?’
‘Do. You. Yield?’
By then it was impossible to stop. The mirth became a torrent, as
mighty as the cascades that now poured down from the fortress’
flanks. He tried to speak, to blurt out something that would end the
whole ludicrous episode, but nothing came.```

[gusty fulcrum]

I mean that still proves my point

He didnt get that russ was laughing at teh situation not at him

Then never talked to him after the fight

[open marsh]

You misunderstand the culture.

Russ punched the Lion. That was the start of it. That is an insult to his honour.

[gusty fulcrum]

Well i mean he insulted russes honour by taking the kill

so its basicly each slighted the otehrs honour

Most will agree theyre both being asshats

Cuz they both have huge prides

[open marsh]

Im with the Lion on this one. He was in the right. This was a war campaign. Not a game.

[gusty fulcrum]

Well for russ thats what war is

so its also cultral diffreences

[open marsh]

That doesnt mean the Lion is somehow flawed for not suddenly treating war like a lackadasical game like Russ

[gusty fulcrum]

and weve established you are the Lion in your dynamic

[open marsh]

[gusty fulcrum]

No the flaw is not really understanding people

[open marsh]

If anything, its Russ not treating war seriously and starting a fight with his brother because he didnt get his way

[gusty fulcrum]

or trying to get where they are comign from

[gusty fulcrum]

Naw if you read it its an honour thing for him too

Its just he has the cpaacty to look back and laugh

and realize he was being foolish

The Lion always thinks hes in teh right

[slow prawn]

I don’t think he’s at fault for treating war like that, it’s not understanding that Russ did

[gusty fulcrum]

ya

[slow prawn]

A more diplomatic move would have been to let Russ have his way, and move on

[open marsh]

Also, if it helps. The story this happens in is from the perspective of the Space Wolves. so yeah they will see the Dark Angels as being in the wrong

[gusty fulcrum]

From my understanding the main events are pretty much teh same for both chpaters telling of the events

Russ gets mad that Lion stole his kill and they fight

[open marsh]

Like that time Ragnar murdered a Dark Angel because he lost an honour duel against him. And he wasnt played off as a psychotic oathbreaker.

Damn wolf should have been executed for that

[gusty fulcrum]

Oh ya dont get me wrong tehres plenty of shit teh space wolves get away with too

At least the dark angels have their secretiveness as an excuse for why they get away with shit

[open marsh]

Russ says he wants to treat the battle like a game. the Lion said "No". Russ gets mad when the Lion doesnt treat it like a game. Russ bows up at the Lion and punches him. The fight is on. Then Russ realizes he was being an idiot and instead of explaining that to the Lion (who is now very angry from getting attacked), instead laughs

Of course the Lion would deck him and end it

[gusty fulcrum]

No im saying thats how the two chapters tell teh tale

they basicly say the same story

with very littel difference

cuz even the darkangels piont out the John didnt realize Leman was laughing at teh situation

[gusty fulcrum]

Well to be fair even in russ's own words he tried to say something but oculdnt cuz he was laughing to hard

[open marsh]

Oh Im not arguing that. Im just saying its reasonable to misunderstand that

[gusty fulcrum]

Oh ya im sure from each perspective they were in teh right

and itd be understandable

[open marsh]

You have just been in a serious brawl, the other guy stops. You ask him if he is calling off the fight/giving up, and instead he just starts laughing. When you are still red hot pissed from getting attacked

[gusty fulcrum]

But once again its like two brothers having fight only one doesnt see the otehr as a true brotehr

Cuz from my udnerstanding Lion didnt view the otehrs as actual brothers

So if you go into from lemans perspective that thier brother of course this fight doesnt mean much in teh grand scheme of things

[open marsh]

I mean. Can you blame him. Given what happened?

[gusty fulcrum]

But if your the lion its just soem randomn dude your wroked with starting shit with you cuz he doesnt liek teh way you do things

[gusty fulcrum]

I mean i dont think he viewed any of them as brotehrs like at all even before what happened with leman

[open marsh]

A summary of the first time the Lion tried to open up and trust one of his brothers. Yes this happened later, but it does prove him right in never trusting them to begin with

[gusty fulcrum]

I think im missing somethign what happened with pert?

[open marsh]

The Lion let his guard down and trusted him with some Ordinatus-grade siege cannons.

Which Perturabo deployed on Istvaan V.....

[slow prawn]

Basically Perturabo tricked the Lion into giving him big siege guns in return for a vote for Warmaster

[gusty fulcrum]

Well i mean that was after the leman incident

[open marsh]

I just said that happened later, but it proves he was right in not trusting any of them.

[gusty fulcrum]

So i would get it if that was the final nail in teh coffin of trust

Well he trusted sanguinus

[open marsh]

Also when he trusted Luther

Basically anyone the Lion tried to open up to and trust turned against him

[gusty fulcrum]

Well he still trust sanguinus enough for teh whole imperuim secundus thing

[open marsh]

Oh he didnt trust him. He kept an eye on Sanguinius and Guilliman. He just rolled with it because of necessity.

[gusty fulcrum]

But everyone trusts sangunius

Ya but from my udnerstanding he only agreed cuz it was sanguinus

[open marsh]

Only time I think he trusted Sanguinius was at the end of the Imperium Secundas

He trusted Sanguinius to get his legion to Terra and aid in its defense

[gusty fulcrum]

He shoulda hung out more with vulkan

[open marsh]

Instead of trying to book it there himself. He hung back and held off the Night Lords. Sacrificing his own honour in order to better the defense of the Imperium and trust Sanguinius to do the right thing

[gusty fulcrum]

ANd we saw how well the discussian between Lion adn Kurze went

granted its not like youd really expect much less

[open marsh]

The Lion, fighting the Night Haunter, to keep the Night Lords from slowing Sanguinius and the Blood Angels down:

Curze paused in his diatribe, wiping away a fresh trickle of blood. ‘Or will the human descendants of this Imperium look to your legend and whisper of doubt? Will they ask why you were not present to defend the Throneworld, and speak likely lies that perhaps the Lion was not as loyal and true as the mighty, perfect Rogal Dorn?

Perhaps the Lion and his Dark Angels waited in the deepest reaches of space, watching, listening, and deciding to join the fight only when an obvious victor emerged.’ The Night Lord’s eyes glinted again, with both amusement and sorrow. ‘That is your fate, Lion. That is your future.’

‘Forgive me, brother.’ Curze tilted his head. ‘For what?’

Corswain was watching both primarchs yet still never saw what happened, such was the speed of the Lion’s movements. One moment the two brothers were speaking – the Lion’s features cast down in contemplation, Curze’s eyes fever-bright as he promised an ignoble fate. The next, Curze’s features twisted into a taut rictus of pain, blood running between his clenched teeth.

The Lion held tight to the grip of his blade, buried to the hilt in his brother’s stomach. More than a metre of shining, bloodstained steel thrust from the back of Curze’s armour. ‘For such a dishonourable blow,’ the Lion whispered into Curze’s pale, bleeding face.

‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’```

[gusty fulcrum]

if anything you woulda probably expected them to fight even sooner then they did

I love just how fuckign crazy CUrze is

Like i mean i also feel bad for how crazy he is but i also love it

[slow prawn]

Okay, full disclosure. The Luther thing was also Lion’s fault as much as it Luther’s fault. Luther found out about a bomb that might kill the Lion. At first he wasn’t going to warn Lion then he felt really bad about it then did. Lion then immediately banished him to Caliban and never talked to him again. Then, there was a rebellion near Caliban. Luther led some DA and helped Horus to quell it. Lion suddenly shows up out of nowhere and makes Luther feel horrible, right in front of everyone and stealing his only victory in a hundred years. Luther is feeling so awful about this he becomes easy pray to Erebus and Typhon

[gusty fulcrum]

Sounds bout right

Basicly liek dorn lion is not apeople person

[open marsh]

The Lion sent Luther back to Caliban because he still had an ounce of trust in Luther and the Lion got word that something bad was coming the Imperium's way and he wanted Luther there to shore up the defenses.

Luther just misunderstood, and it mixed with his own injured pride and worry

[slow prawn]

Well he should have told him that!

Instead of just sending him away

[gusty fulcrum]

Ya ive read the book where he sends luthar back he doesnt explain to him why

[slow prawn]

Even just a simple private conversation would have sufficed

[gusty fulcrum]

He just leaves luther with the thought he disapionted the lion somehow and he wouldnt even tell him why

[slow prawn]

Plus he never ever talks to him again

[gusty fulcrum]

and that he was left as punishment

[open marsh]

Jeez does that sound like anyone looks at Big E

[gusty fulcrum]

Yes

like father like son

this was also a thing magnus did

[slow prawn]

Exactly! It’s a huge problem with the Emperor as well

[gusty fulcrum]

The still took after the emperor alot in certain ways

[slow prawn]

If they would have shown like an ounce of trust or understanding, everything would have gone better

[open marsh]

Hence my original point:

The Lion turned out exactly as Big E wanted him too. And issues he has were ones designed into him. He didnt deviate from the Emperor's original intentions for him

[slow prawn]

And that’s exactly right. The problem is that doesn’t excuse Lion from his bad behavior

[gusty fulcrum]

thats what were getting at basicly

[open marsh]

Then we are all in agreement

[gusty fulcrum]

and once again its all big E and Mom's fault

and chaos

but alot of big e

[open marsh]

Chaos cant be blamed for this one.

[slow prawn]

Huh?