#40k-lore-chat

1 messages · Page 1876 of 1

frigid mesa
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how are you in these trying times?

barren tapir
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It could be better... But still stand...

vagrant osprey
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Ugh, there he is, lusting after Eldar booty again.

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I'm pretty sure seeing the birth of Slaanesh turned him off of women forever, though.

frigid mesa
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trust me, i live in a third world country, every day is a fight for survival here

vagrant osprey
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Where are you? Do you need assistance?

hoary moat
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Aren't they usually made a part of the Unnumbered Sons?

vagrant osprey
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What, loyalist traitors? Yeah

open marsh
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The Unnumbered Sons, afaik, were all of the 9 loyalist legions. wearing their colors. Then guilliman broke them up and sent some to reinforce existing chapters, and used the rest to make new chapters

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I'd think that would cause issues, since Guilliman doesnt know who is using traitor legion geneseed

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Instead I think the Unnumbered Sons were all loyalist legions, but during the Ultima Founding, Cawl made chapters using traitor legion geneseed

vagrant osprey
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Guilliman also used that to cover for a fuckton of loyalists from traitor legions getting rolled back into the ranks.

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Like the Iron Warriors

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Who, I should note, had the highest geneseed acceptance rate... just like some of the 'Ultramarine successor chapters'

open marsh
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Oh i know

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Im just saying here, Guilliman wouldnt know who is who except for what is listed on the supply crate of geneseed

vagrant osprey
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Yes. He double-blinded it so even he couldn't be made to explain what sort of accounting fraud he covered up in his reorg.

open marsh
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Im not so sure on that, if you are referring to the iron warriors who were took into the legion. He knows who they are

vagrant osprey
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He knows who some of them were

open marsh
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Only traitors we know he took in was those Iron Warriors. And he knows who they are.

vagrant osprey
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We are pretty sure some World Eaters and Night Lords were taken in by him

open marsh
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not so sure about all that.... atleast i havent seen it

crisp heath
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Would have to be World Eaters who never got the nails

open marsh
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Did Macer Varren have the nails?

ashen zenith
barren tapir
crisp heath
visual pumice
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Can’t blame him

ashen zenith
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Heiny

crisp heath
median sundial
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What event in the 40k timeline lead to Terra going into the Age of Strife? Are there exact specifics or is left open ended to save the authors trouble of writing an event that happened so long ago in the setting?

open marsh
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Old Night

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When Slaanesh was being created, it started a massive amount of warp storms to the point that the warp was practically unsailable. Completely destroying the human Federation's world's ability to travel and communicate with each other

cerulean wagon
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that and the ai issues sprung up

open marsh
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Ehhh....kinda.

The cybernetic revolt happened. It was bad. crippled the Federation. But it started to recover then Old Night hit and killed it

storm jungle
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For more detail you can click on the specific M(date)

barren tapir
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Oh, and the fact that psykers started to spawn worse than mushrooms

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And then those psykers became another threat in the form of portals to the warp from which demons could get into the materium

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Here, take a look

coarse mirage
open marsh
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which two empires?

coarse mirage
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Human and Eldari

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They were both in their prime

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Strange to think the Eldar didn't get some sick ideas in their heads to start a war or two

open marsh
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From what I understand, they mostly stayed out of each others way

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The Eldar had the webway and just chilled there

gaunt vector
open marsh
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netflix and chilled

gaunt vector
barren tapir
# coarse mirage I'm wondering how both these empires could've coexisted without trouble

By understanding that both were super power... The humans were at their zenith, but the eldar were already decadent... While they did had some wars, especially when first met, they simply decided to leave eachother alone... Humans were fully capable to go toe to toe with the eldar, as shown by the Speranza (what a beautiful name btw), and the eldar were too much interested in... Their private stuff...

crisp heath
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Has anybody read the book Dredge Runners?

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It sounds like such a good concept

vagrant osprey
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He wanted Humanity to develop to the point where it could use psychic powers to solve its problems, and that doesn't really happen if humanity can use machines for the task.

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We've also had conversations on this topic before:
1: The Emperor insists that Humanity was absolutely dependent on AI for everything.
2: The Emperor insists that all AIs turned on humanity and decided to kill them.

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If BOTH those things were true, then humanity would be extinct.

vast frigate
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If bOth those things were true, humanity doesnt have to be extinct

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Regardless of societal laziness not everyone thinks the same

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You will have groups scared of that very outcome and they will limit influence

barren tapir
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First time you see Pseudo talking about lore?

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@vast frigate you are the robot with an avian people aquatic forge world right?

storm jungle
# vagrant osprey We actually have no idea how bad the cybernetic revolts were. The source for all...

Again wrong. We had a firsthand witness to the entire thing with Oll Persson from the Perpetual Audio Drama

They were stuck in Andrioch, a human colony that was once magnificent but was destroyed by the time they arrived. Half of the city was missing, and it sat along a massive chasm that pierced all the way to the planet's core. Persson speculated that the wound could have been formed by powerful weapons used by Iron Men and the human alliances: sun snuffers, mechnavores that could hurl continents, or omniphage swarms that could devour biological matter. In particular, the city was probably destroyed by a mechanvore that was able to wound both the physical and spiritual universe.

So yeah the actual revolt REALLY pretty much was devastating as all hell. And he didnt insist that humanity was dependant on AI, it was literally what was happening at the time and an AI ship itself from another novel confirms this by saying humanity was at its zenith during the DAoT.

cerulean wagon
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Also with the emp insisting stuff

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Hes insisiting it becuase its a story that he wants to push not because its true

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unfortunatley books like "The Last Church" and stuff recover it poorly, but the emperor was not omnipotent prior to death

barren tapir
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People, we all know that Pseudo take on lore is... Questionable... I don't get why you always get into such discussions

cerulean wagon
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because there are new people in the server daily, and if we leave pseudo to it he'll teach them strange things

storm jungle
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That. Also im waiting for food and am bored

barren tapir
vast frigate
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@barren tapir yesss

vagrant osprey
barren tapir
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They seems interesting, if only because it can help fight off people who call about your creation as out of lore

vagrant osprey
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Also, you supported one of my points - that it wasn't ALL AI turning on Humanity. I still maintain that it was the Men of Iron fighting against their own AI masters, and humanity was more or less collateral damage.

storm jungle
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Also what collateral damage, they were literally out to murder everyone.

vagrant osprey
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I know. Thanks for telling me about it

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Is there lore saying that for certain?

cerulean wagon
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any lore stating it wasnt?

vagrant osprey
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I didn't think there was ever a hard statement about what their goal was, only that they left massive destruction in their wake.

cerulean wagon
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its literaly called a revolt

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their goal was never stated but it has been stated numeral times that humans went to war with their ai

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as per dilara exert above

vagrant osprey
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Oh, I see the confusion.

storm jungle
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Eventually, the Men of Iron turned on their Human masters, believing themselves superior to the Humans who relied on the Men of Iron to do virtually everything for them.
Warhammer 40,000: Rulebook (3rd Edition), "The Journal of Keeper Cripias"

vagrant osprey
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My assertion was that humans were not at war with ALL their AI

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The Men of Iron, specifically, revolted.

cerulean wagon
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thats

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still a war against their ai

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thats not collateral

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thats a war

vagrant osprey
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I suppose it depends on who you see as being in control, then.

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Was humanity in control or was it the AIs who ran humanity?

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If humanity was completely dependant on AI, which I seem to recall the Emperor claiming, then it wasn't a revolt against humanity.

storm jungle
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  • Humanity was in control but the AI had, you know, Intelligence.
  • Humanity was indeed dependant on AI
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  • The robot-boyz didnt like the way they were treated and thus, as the above picture states, r-e-v-o-l-t-e-d.
barren tapir
vagrant osprey
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I didn't argue that it was not a revolt :/

storm jungle
barren tapir
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Chill Dilara chill

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No need to go crazy

vagrant osprey
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I was saying that the AIs that humanity had delegated things to were the targets, and that humanity was more or less irrelevant :/

vast frigate
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@barren tapir i didnt know those, thanks

vagrant osprey
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We see UR-025 interact with humans, and he treats them like they're annoying children. Like they aren't people at all

vast frigate
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@barren tapir 7 years old, gooooooood

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Also no real description etx

cerulean wagon
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no humanity was the target psuedo

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as stated

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the emporer says what he says to push an agenda

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he has a goal to achieve

coarse mirage
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Did Grombrindal survive to AoS?

placid timber
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@coarse mirage yes

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Sorta

coarse mirage
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Good, he was awesome

placid timber
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Not sure 100 percent

coarse mirage
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Gotta let the White Dwarf keep killin

placid timber
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Let me explain

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In the newest broken realms book, Belakor

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There was this Arkonaught Comapany dude who never took his helmet off and his beard guard was painted white

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Nobody on the crew knew how he got on the ship

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And when belakor was destroying Chammon, this ship shot at him and he dived for it to bring it down

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Then he saw this dwarf get up from his seat, and he let go of the boat and left

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@coarse mirage

20210502_105352.jpg
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His name was Gromthi

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There a debate going on if hes an avatar of grimgi or grombrindal

coarse mirage
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Or both!

serene jungle
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... Grimgi who?

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Do you mean* Grungi or Grimnir?

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Grimnir's avatar would be Gotrek naturally

coarse mirage
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Grimnir, the warrior ancestor god I think

rotund siren
placid timber
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the dwarf god of engineering

potent swift
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Grungni is mining and smithing

placid timber
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FUCK

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Man i suck at dwarfs

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I know a lot about destruction armies despite having zero interest in playing any of them

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I play slaanesh on the tabletop thats about it

potent swift
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lol I'm in 2 different forum quests that heavily feature Dwarfs so I've gotten pretty familiar with their pantheon

stray kestrel
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High fantasy name lists just slide right off my brain like water off a ducks back. Eventually a name will stick, like Valaya.

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the elf pantheon is the worst

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something about the aesthetic of elf words make their pantheon even more effective at gliding effortlessly off the skull and not sticking in memory.

coarse tree
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I wish there was a short story or something where the Imperium finds an STC or AI that goes into more detail about the dark age of technology from the perspective of somebody who around at the time

open marsh
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Well...

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House Van Saar were founded by DAoT survivors (they got lost in the warp and reappeared in M35). And they have an STC

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And in the story Death of Integrity, a Tech-priest and some space marines find a DAoT ship whose AI is still operational and it gives such a chat

stray kestrel
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I remember hearing about a story with a Mechanicus admiral managing to actually turn on all their dark age weaponry on a ship for a single battle, firing black holes and all sorts of insane stuff, but when they shut it down it burned the knowledge out of his mind.

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I think there was something else to it, not just "we managed to turn it on" but I can't remember the details

coarse tree
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I can't find Death of Integrity on Audible 😖

open marsh
coarse tree
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So wait lol. The Mechanicus is hell bent on traveling the galaxy finding these STC and they have been in their ships this whole time?

stray kestrel
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makes sense tbh

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these STC's were standard databases of everything

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the fact that every single one they've found has only been a tiny non corrupt fragment is astronomically unlikely

open marsh
coarse tree
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What a sad twist of irony. Pour one out for Mars

open marsh
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The AIs know better than to let them know. Since A. The Mechanicius will kill the AIs and B. It would be like giving primative tribesmen nukes

coarse tree
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So are the AI on their ships not ravanous killing machines like the Revolt?

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Ohhh

open marsh
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Correct. They are not

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That was the Men of Iron. STCs aren't Men of Iron

barren tapir
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TBF the Speraza had an STC, not all ark mechanicus have STC

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That all ark mechanicus contains STC is just a theory

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Atleast one Ark Mechanicus, the Speranza, secretly contains a fully functional and still updating STC. Archmagos Lexell Kotov theorized that all Ark Mechanicus secretly contained intact STCs and STC databases, the very things they were sent to find, but the Mechanicus just do not realize it and do not know how to access those functions. The knowledge of the STC was wiped from Kotov's mind upon disconnecting.

coarse mirage
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So is the Mechanicus secretly being controlled by AI+

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?

barren tapir
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Nope

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How did you even arrived at that conclusion?

vagrant osprey
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The Mechanicus doesn't understand how STCs worked. They assume they're just a massive library of STCs that happen to have an AI near them. They don't understand that the massive libraries aren't normal. :V

coarse mirage
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They wouldnt be able to be AI unless they were making sure nobody knew about it, or controll those that do know. Or that those that do know are knowingly heretechs by using AI's in every Ark

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Cawl likely knows a whole lot

barren tapir
vagrant osprey
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Now, all Ark Mechanicus ships are originally the same model, so they all should have STC AIs

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But we have no way of knowing if they actually do

barren tapir
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Ark Mechanicus aren't all the same model... Some of them date back to old times though

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The Speranza is a really special ship, it is unique... And old...

storm jungle
coarse mirage
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I was thinking it could be related to AI yeah

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and that the Void Dragon is some AI precursor or the origin of it or something

storm jungle
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Yeah we sadly dont know 100%, GW is keeping it a mystery for the sake of mystery

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Its one of the pandora's box things they'll reveal when they just feel like it

coarse mirage
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Some things are good to keep unknown

storm jungle
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Until you gotta make a book around it because monei

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coughs in Horus Heresy

Z.png
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but yep we'll see what happens

barren tapir
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Ah, the story of the void dragon is just a can of shiz... It make no sense, mars got terraformed early, not even in the Age of Tech, and the cult arise when? Around 30K years later, maybe it would be more correct to say 25K...

vagrant osprey
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I'm not sure what about the void dragon doesn't make sense.

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Look, what happened was St George, who was the Emperor, beat up the Void Dragon and built a massive technologically advanced tomb on Mars to contain the Void dragon back in the first Millennium or so, where it lurked and did nothing for about 24,000 years.

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See? Simple :V

primal tide
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It doesn't make sense because the emperor doesn't look like a George at all

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Looks more like a Mark or a Daniel

cerulean wagon
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it makes no sense and the reason is because the emporers lore is garbage

odd sparrow
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tbh yeah most of the big e background fluff is just

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akh

vagrant osprey
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Emps takes credit for a fuckton of stuff he didn't do.

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He claimed to be the person who invented the bolter, but people keep finding STCs for bolter rounds and he wasn't active at the same time as STCs

coarse mirage
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Or rather, was attributed to him by others.

vagrant osprey
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IIRC he personally took credit for bolters.

odd sparrow
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i mean, wasn't he active in some capacity all the way through to his crippling? Just not like, out

storm jungle
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The Emperor checked the ornate bolter at His hip. One of the very first boltguns; a progenitor for its kind – not a relic rediscovered from the Dark Age of Technology but an invention of the Emperor’s own design.

Master of Mankind

vagrant osprey
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So, yeah, the fact that there are STCs being found for bolters means he's lying there.

storm jungle
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How is that lying

primal tide
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Isn't the implication that he created that one before stcs where a thing

cerulean wagon
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or that he just built that specific model

vagrant osprey
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Because he's saying it's newer than the DAoT

cerulean wagon
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first of its kind, not first bolter

storm jungle
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^

vagrant osprey
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Well, that's kinda stretching the definition of "invention", then.

storm jungle
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If he was lying the book would say a line like "The first of its kind in the eyes of the public, a well kept secret the Emperor would let no one know."

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or something like that lol

vagrant osprey
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So, the lore is contradicting itself.

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Must be a Monday

storm jungle
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GW: Its the warp.

worn dagger
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Yeah I think its just implying that that particular model was his invention.

primal tide
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I think it's saying it is one of the first, not a rediscovered relic because he had it the whole time

vagrant osprey
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Invent. Verb. "create or design (something that has not existed before); be the originator of."

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A mere 7 years after the first emails were sent!

primal tide
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🤔 what is the argument here?

vagrant osprey
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I'm not even sure.

primal tide
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Cool

vagrant osprey
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The Emperor taking credit for things, I think.

storm jungle
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Im guessing Pseu saying Big E stole the idea of the Bolter and claiming he invented it himself.

primal tide
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Theres no reason he couldn't've tho

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He big brain, he old af

storm jungle
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Yeah like Im pretty sure if Big E quote on quote lied about inventing the boltgun every lorenut would know about it in detail.

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and add it to the pile of lies/dumb-shit he does

vagrant osprey
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I think that's on the list, actually.

primal tide
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Sounds like it shouldn't be

vagrant osprey
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See, I actually want to give him credit for the bolter, but people keep finding Bolter STCs

storm jungle
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Because like any gun it has many patterns doesnt it

vagrant osprey
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Yeah, but the patterns date back to the DAoT

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If GW had people develop new patterns that would work.

primal tide
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Why do bolter stcs disprove him creating the first bolter?

vagrant osprey
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But instead it's "Oh, they went to a dead world from the DAoT and found a new bolter pattern!"

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Because STCs were produced by AIs during the DAoT, when the Emperor was canonically not involving himself in the affairs of mortals.

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So the Bolter would have to be older than the DAoT

primal tide
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So? What's that have to do with bolters already existing at that point, by his hand assumedly

vagrant osprey
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The claim that he is the point of origin for Bolters, when the timelines don't converge at a point where that makes sense?

storm jungle
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One of the very first boltguns; a progenitor for its kind

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One of the first

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Not THE first

cerulean wagon
vagrant osprey
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Yes. A brand new Boltgun, and one of the first.

primal tide
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Bada bing bada boom

vagrant osprey
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The Unification wars happened at the end of the AoS

cerulean wagon
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uhh

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yeah

vagrant osprey
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Bolters do not exist today.

primal tide
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This isn't terra buddy

cerulean wagon
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bolters are just gyrojet rifles with explosive payloads

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we no longer have the explosive rounds due to them being war crimes

primal tide
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Emp- "what's a war crime lul"

vagrant osprey
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No. Bolters are a combination conventional munition AND gyrojet.

cerulean wagon
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thats what a gyrojet is usualy

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🤷

vagrant osprey
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They are explicitly not.

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There have been very few gyrojet rounds, only one of which was ever produced commercially, and NONE of them used a conventional powder charge to give the round an initial velocity.

cerulean wagon
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there were experimental ones but the cost increase of making it take cartridge + slow burn stress and remain useable wasn't worth the negligible gains

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it literally gets to a point of "just use a normal gun"

vagrant osprey
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Largely because the entire benefit of Gyrojet ammo is that you do not need any pressure containment in the firearm. You can make a gyrojet rifle out of a couple of coat hangers as guide rails.

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Adding a kicker charge means your weapon now needs to withstand pressure, and have a barrel. That means you're bringing back all the mass that gyrojets existed to remove.

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So instead of having a gun that weighs an ounce, you're back up to full mass

cerulean wagon
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gyrojets still need to withstand pressive

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less yes, still withstand it

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and they already have barrels

vagrant osprey
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AND Gyrojets aren't exactly compatible with rifling, so you can either get your spin from the gyrojet or from rifling

cerulean wagon
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ah yes

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barrel less gun

vagrant osprey
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Gyrojet weapons do not need pressure containment, they need a backstop to prevent gasses from burning the shooter.

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Those holes? They go through the entire thing.

cerulean wagon
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no barrel at all

vagrant osprey
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That's not a barrel in any conventional sense. That's a guide.

cerulean wagon
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thats a barrel

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a smoothbore barrel

vagrant osprey
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Yes, which only needs the rigidity of a can of soda because it exists only to make the bullet go in a direction, not to contribute to the pressure-based acceleration.

primal tide
cerulean wagon
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the literaly meaning

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its a barrel

primal tide
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Nonsense, a barrel is what you keep oil in

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Bruh I hate discord embed

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Kill me

cerulean wagon
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adda ? to the end

primal tide
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Magic

cerulean wagon
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lmao

vagrant osprey
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Fine, I'll concede that. The point remains that a barrel not intended to assist wit the pressure-based acceleration of a projectile does not need to weigh nearly as much. The entire selling point of Gyrojet ammo was 1: It solved the problems of caseless ammo, and 2: The weapon weighed next to nothing compared to conventional munitions, while providing more mass-to-target per round.

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The downside of Gyrojet was that it was far more complex, had lower-density bullets, and was far less predictable yielding much lower accuracy.

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If you combine a gyrojet with a kicker charge, you now have all these problems combined and none of the benefits.

storm jungle
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Also man, all this from a single excerpt

cerulean wagon
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as i said psuedo

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it was tested

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it wasnt worth it

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it was never main produced

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but it existed

vagrant osprey
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Look, the biggest irony of Big E is that he's exactly the type to fall for ALL of the chaos gods.

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He's an angry, violent motherfucker.
He's obsessed with secret plans and betrayal.
And MAN does he fuck

cerulean wagon
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he doesnt exactly do any of this in excess

primal tide
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tfw you will never score as much ass as big E 😔

vagrant osprey
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... have you SEEN the custodes?

storm jungle
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....Yes?

primal tide
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Now entering: fanfic territory

vagrant osprey
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Fanfic territory is that he didn't start the Unification Wars until AFTER the warpstorm around Terra passed because he was living it up in the capital of the Eldar Empire when Old Night happened.

storm jungle
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Wha-

vagrant osprey
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That's fanon.

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Explaining why he didn't start the unification wars until Terra was freed from the warp storm.

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(Alternatively, he spent that time on Terra and deciding to do nothing about the total societal collapse into barbarism and destruction of technology until AFTER everything was completely ruined. It's more charitable to assume he just wasn't on Terra to do anything about it.)

cerulean wagon
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what does that have to do with anything

vagrant osprey
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Somebody mentioned Fanfic territory :V

storm jungle
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Yeah probably because half your claims are always weird

primal tide
vagrant osprey
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TBH, I'm usually too busy to keep track of the conversation, so I respond to things as I see them based on what I can remember was going on, so you've got the luck of the draw as far as where I wind up going with conversations.

storm jungle
vagrant osprey
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Work takes priority :/

crisp heath
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brutal kunnin

barren tapir
obtuse vault
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reminder:

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elves

coarse mirage
obtuse vault
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finally some good taste

coarse mirage
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What is this discord you invited me to

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I don't do unsolicited invites, bub.

crisp heath
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this is my favorite 40k art

inland meadow
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is that 40k witch hunter on the right?

crisp heath
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The Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors are basically the equivalent of WHFB Witch Hunters

stray kestrel
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thats why I'm hoping the inquisitor in Darktide has Saltzpyres voice actor. You could plop Salty completely unaltered into 40k and he'd totally work.

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he could even be from a planet which calls the Emperor Sigmar and reveres a twin tailed comet, because while a lot of the media of 40k never shows this, the Imperial cult is surprisingly tolerant of variation of beliefs in order to ensure it spreads. They'll rework any given planets beliefs into emperor worship rather than ousting the existing religion. So the Emperor is the sun on one planet, or the head of a pantheon (all of which are aspects of him) on another.

novel fulcrum
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as long as it can be construed as emperor worship, it generally works out

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any eight-pointed stars are right out, though

stray kestrel
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mm

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the real kicker of things in the universe that the media never mentions but probably should, is that Space Marine chapters generally don't worship the Emperor as a god. Which puts them at odds with some of the more puritanical inquisitors. That and the Mechanicus being its own separate nation. Both pretty big deals that barely get mentioned for some reason. You'd think there'd be more friction.

dim totem
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jk ofc

novel fulcrum
# stray kestrel the real kicker of things in the universe that the media never mentions but prob...

the thing about the space marines and the mechanicus having different viewpoints is that they're both vitally important to the imperium functioning at all, so nobody can really stop them
the mechanicus had a 'deal' (read: terms read out to them by the emperor while basically having the planet held at gunpoint) that included them continuing their form of worship, and because it was the emperor's own decree that they be allowed to do so, nobody can really take any actual action against them for it, since they got the best endorsement for a divergent belief system they possibly could have had from the viewpoint of the ecclesiarchy, that being the emperor; they still probably feel disgust towards it in the case of the more puritanical sects, but it's by and large accepted and in part integrated into everyday society (instructing laborers and soldiers to speak prayers and litanies to their wargear in certain circumstances) because they're the only real source of any tech the rest of the imperium can get their hands on (barring a few small, overall insignificant exceptions), and because they have that emps endorsement
the astartes aren't forced to worship the emperor as a god because they're the emperor's grandsons, and i'd say that applies on two fronts: from an outside perspective, who's going to tell the grandsons of the emperor how to manage their faith and worship when they're considered the holiest of men? from an inside perspective, if everyone called your grandpa an actual god and legitimately prayed to him every chance they got, even though he's your grandpa and you love and respect him very much, you probably wouldn't really worship him in nearly the same way, because that's ultimately a little odd when it comes to family like that
obviously there are notable exceptions to this like the black templars and such, but by and large, the astartes are instead following the emperor's true, secular vision, which they're rarely going to bother arguing with puritans about

#

when an astartes believes he is right, and his hypno-indoctrination does make him believe he is right, he will rarely be swayed by any outside influence, and unless they have any cause to be found wanting, like interfering directly with the inquisition's operations like the space wolves and the celestial lions have, they're generally not going to be bothered with for something that most outsiders probably won't even notice, since marines are still largely shouting 'for the emperor' often enough

cursive hull
#

The Imperium only continues to exist because its capable of just ignoring issues they don't really need to address. Its not really important what the Space Marines think so long as they do their job. As for the Mechanicus, as said above, yeah, the Ad Mech and the Imperium fundamentally require one another to exist. The Ad Mech needs the raw resources and food and labor force and so on from the Imperium, and the Imperium needs the technology and expertise of the Ad Mech to keep itself afloat. Its pretty much an open secret that the Ad Mech doesn't really have to do anything the Inquisition says. At the end of the day, the devices of government for the Imperium are a tad more robust than some people imagine.

#

Sorry for doubling down, just rewording a few things.

novel fulcrum
#

see, the thing is that to an extent, it does matter what they believe in, as highly questionable chaos-adjacent beliefs cannot be tolerated for fear of ensuing incursions and traitors defecting, it's just a matter of having beliefs divergent enough to satisfy themselves without being so divergent that they cannot be tolerated

cursive hull
#

Well, yeah. That's true.

novel fulcrum
#

but yes, the degrees of tolerance are going to me more lax in these organizations' cases, and they also do weed out their own abnormal individuals precisely to avoid scrutiny from outside forces

#

at least from within, they have some context to work off of; someone from without will naturally assume the worst immediately

cursive hull
#

I guess it'd be more accurate to say its a spectrum. So long as they aren't being weird or straying too far from what the Imperium considers "Normal" then they can continue to believe it.

#

So yes, you're right.

storm jungle
#

Also the Imperium is suppose to be a """crumbling""" Empire in the narrative yet its doing better than ever

gusty fulcrum
storm jungle
#

The universe is and isnt doing well depending on sales

barren tapir
#

Space marine and the ministrorum don't have the best relationship, nor the Ad. Mech. and the ministrorum... Although in both cases it is the ministrorum the part that mostly is angry, as the space marine don't care, and the Ad. Mech. are too much invested in their quest for knowledge...
TLDR the ministrorum is awful

#

The ministrorum had the audacity of going to fenris because they heard that the space wolves worshipped something heretical, they tried even to land forcefully to the fang...

dim totem
#

Ppl probably hate the administratum the most

cursive hull
#

I would say the Administratum is probably the most disliked, and probably the most vocally so.

From my own memory, and not really with any facts to back it up, the Ad Mech doesn't really care what the Ministorum thinks, or really much of the Imperium. Being that they are effectively a separate faction and can even tell the Inquisition "No." says a lot.

The Imperium does at least let most Imperial worlds do as they please when it comes to religion, so long as they worship the Emperor, one of his saints, or something like that. The Ministorum is somewhat impotent unless you're on a saint/cardinal/what have you world.

#

Meanwhile, you have to do what the Administratum says, even if its contradictory or out of date.

#

(Unless you're above their reach. Then it becomes an issue for the High Lords/Guilliman/The Inquisition.)

#

In general, the lack of competence shown in record keeping and the sluggish legal system alone would be what would make people despise the Administratum.

barren tapir
#

<@&735928989146939404> could you give Carroboi a role? I remember that it is required for stuff here in the server...

cursive hull
#

The Ad Mech would probably have a greater issue with the Administratum than the Ministorum for the explicit reason that the Administratum can up and lose records on what was requested for Forge world optimization of production. Or "Losing" a whole division of Baneblades, if Dawn of War is to be believed.

#

Also yes please

barren tapir
#

I'm not sure that the warden tag work... Lets try with @plucky moth

barren tapir
cursive hull
#

They don't, technically, but the Administratum dispatches a great deal of information to the same trade ships and trade fleets the Imperium uses to keep working. The point is that the Ad Mech would be upset with the Administratum over their incompetence with record keeping and making sure everything gets where it needs to be.

#

I'd be pretty peeved as a Magos finding out they still haven't delivered the requested raw materials to keep up with my quotas.

barren tapir
#

No, the Ad. Mech. don't care... The inquisition on the other hand do... And they have a minor ordo exactly to try to fix as many errors of the administratum as possible

plucky moth
#

what's up?

barren tapir
cursive hull
#

I need a role

plucky moth
#

OH

barren tapir
#

Forge worlds don't pay any tithe

plucky moth
#

ok yeah sorry that happens sometimes

#

the automatic role thingy doesn't catch everyone

cursive hull
#

No problem.

plucky moth
#

welcome to prison

cursive hull
#

lol

#

Finally, I have achieved my dream, being incarcerated.

#

Anyway

barren tapir
#

And most importantly the administratum isn't responsible to give raw materials to the forge worlds

plucky moth
cursive hull
#

They are if you forget that planet or system even exists.

barren tapir
cursive hull
#

Isn't that a problem? Its one of the most commonly talked about feature (I mean, it really is a feature) of the Administratum, it tends to lose things.

barren tapir
#

It does indeed lose stuff, like entire systems or sectors too... But forge worlds aren't domain of the imperium, they are managed by the Ad. Mech. who do its own business without the administratum

plucky moth
barren tapir
#

In general forge worlds also are quite independent...

cursive hull
#

Depends on the Forge World.

cerulean wagon
#

Honestly tho

#

not even joking the administratum error % aint that bad

#

when u consider just how large of a logistical nightmare they have to organise

cursive hull
#

The big ones, Graia/Ryza/Mars are definitely powerful and self sufficient to an extent, but the minor forge worlds churning out Las-guns and helmets might not be.

barren tapir
#

Taking in consideration the mole of work they do? Nope, it is not bad

cursive hull
#

And no, it really isn't. The fact it happens is still discouraging though.

cerulean wagon
#

it happens today when people are managing singular buildings

barren tapir
#

Considering that even the 1% can doom entire systems it is quite bad still

cerulean wagon
#

the idea of managing a planet, let along a galaxy

cursive hull
#

At least most people in the Administratum don't have that authority.

barren tapir
cursive hull
#

That isn't entirely true, at least if a recent bit of lore digging I did is true. Seems like a few were severely damaged and reduced during the Great Crusade, leaving them incapable of producing anything of consequence beyond basic ammo and weaponry.

plucky moth
#

alrighty think I got everyone that I can see for the moment lol

barren tapir
#

You did amazing warden

plucky moth
dim totem
#

My office can't manage its Corona so I'm guessing the administratum has it rough

cursive hull
#

I'm not saying even a minor Forge World can't generally take care of itself. I'm more implying that they'd wither up and become a shadow of their former glory without constant supply runs. Agri worlds exist for the exact reason that not every planet can feed itself.

barren tapir
cursive hull
#

Going to need a moment.

barren tapir
#

It is important to note though that the imperium will send both astarted and guards to protect them, but will not manage them

cursive hull
#

Dironth, a Forge world that had a small system to its name plus an entire other Forge World under its authority. The forces attacked the scout ships that approached it immediately. From what I've found, they even used some powerful machine intelligence against the Imperium and the Mechanicum when they arrived to bring it back to the fold.

It had most of its tech knowledge destroyed and most of its materials taken from it.

#

They did get a contingent of Titans, but not many.

#

(That is, to guard the planet)

#

It is now called "Jerulas Station." And is currently abandoned and defunct.

#

Its not entirely unheard of for the Imperium to have so harshly treated a planet during reunification for them to end up dependent upon outside support from trade.

#

Although most were just that way when they were found, from memory.

#

Because age of strife

barren tapir
#

So it isn't an actual forge world

cursive hull
#

Not anymore. It was though, during the Crusade and into the Heresy.

#

(I believe it turned out to be a Necron tomb world or something, if the lore blurbs I managed to find on it are anything to go by.)

barren tapir
#

Yeah, it was, and at that point it was capable of stalling the imperium for some quite time... Quite self sufficient i would say

cursive hull
#

Actually no, not according to the lore blurbs

#

They didn't even fight the Imperium, aside from the PDF stationed on planet.

#

They were annihilated by the time anyone showed up to check on them at the tail end of the Heresy.

#

Again, supposedly by the Necrons.

barren tapir
#

Many Forge Worlds oversee their own petty empires.
And since the forge world are directly controlled by the Ad. Mech. they are more independent than all other types of imperium controlled planets

barren tapir
#

Take in consideration that i'm still explaining that the forge worlds are independent from the administratum, and that they are also self sufficient

cursive hull
#

For clarity, when I say self sufficient, I don't mean "Would fall apart without oversight of the Imperium." Because they don't/didn't need it.

I'm aware forge worlds are under the direct control of the Ad Mech as a faction and that the Ad Mech manages itself and its own matters, as a separate faction often does.

I mean "Would suffer so greatly without Imperial food and water that said Ad Mech Magos would be petitioning for from trade and so on."

I'm not conflating the Imperium's authority over resources. I'm just stating that the Administratum and the other managerial parts of the Imperium do play a role in helping to feed these planets. I'd find it nigh unto impossible to believe that, as hyperbolic example, the Imperium would tolerate open trade between a xenos race and the Ad Mech for supplies.

Because while some Forge Worlds probably do have enough supply or production of food and water to last, not all of them do.

#

The Age of Strife is a great example of this. Once the previous human federation started to fall apart, it was every system and planet for itself. No more trade, no more flow of supply or information for millennium.

#

Most Forge Worlds could have done okay without rejoining the Mechanicum as a whole and thus receiving protection from both the Mechanicum and the Imperium, but they definitely wouldn't have prospered.

barren tapir
#

I mean self sufficient as they don't have to rely on the administratum for food and stuff, if not because they grow their own food on the world it is because they get it from a world, still under the control of that forge world

cursive hull
#

I'm not directly aware of any Agriworld owned by the Ad Mech, but I suppose its not impossible.

#

Not really an angle 40k covers very well.

barren tapir
cursive hull
#

Develop yes, but to say they were doing better than before is the thing.

barren tapir
cursive hull
#

Well "Mechanicum" but that's being pedantic and I know what you mean.

barren tapir
cursive hull
#

In some aspects, yes. In some aspects, not as much.

That miniature Imperium that Horus and his boys dealt with during the Crusade seemed to be less the rule and more an exception.

barren tapir
#

Interex, diasporex, the one with virtual reality, the olamic quitetude... Aurethian technocracy

cursive hull
#

Wait. Interex were human? I thought one of those -Rex factions was xenos

#

I remember some sort of Xenocide to do with a similarly named faction.

Also yes, I remember the Technocracy.

barren tapir
#

It was a mix

cursive hull
#

My lore info has to be out of date or something.

#

Which I accept as entirely possible because my big dumb face doesn't stay current.

#

Well, as overwhelmingly current as it would need to be to have all of the understanding required.

barren tapir
#

The interex absorbed into their society a xeno races that they defeated, and while humans the interex had bat like ears
The diasporex was a civilization with both humans and xenos

#

There is also the civilization of adrantus, or those that posed as terra

cursive hull
#

Those parts I remember generally.

barren tapir
#

That were also only the independent human civilizations, as the forge worlds created during the age of strife by colonization fleets sent from mars were still independent, self sufficient and most of the time well developed

storm jungle
novel fulcrum
#

late for the administratum convo, but i think it's hilarious that it's all so bloated that shipments will just get sent to entirely wrong planets and even systems at this point

#

the only war requisition system involving random equipment no one asked for is pretty funny, although if you plan on playing it for any extended period i think it benefits a lot from some homebrew table expansions, to keep it fresh

barren tapir
#

You were late, it still hasn't ended muahahahahah (<-evil laugh)

#

But yes, an adept may forget to write a single digit and boom, and entire sector has vanished, or a regiment is considered traitor... Or rockets are delivered to a rough rider regiment that wanted lances

#

And all those errors happen even with the help of some tech-priest that are seconded to the administratum... Imagine what would happen without those tech-priest or the inquisitors that try to catch as many of those errors

vagrant osprey
#

AdMech has some agriworlds, but IIRC that's largely because their explorator fleets claim worlds it finds useful, and sometimes agriworlds have DAoT ruins to pilfer

#

And if a planet was pastoral before the admech got there, then ¯_(ツ)_/¯

ashen zenith
#

new humble wh40k bundle

#

any good stories in the 1 dollar tier?

vagrant osprey
#

Fifteen Hours is one of the best regarded books about the IG

ashen zenith
#

o alright imma check it out then

crisp heath
#

ciaphas cain rocks

#

all da time

cerulean wagon
#

ciaphas is great

#

15 hours is okay

#

its become central lore which is

#

not great

barren tapir
#

You mean awful there right?

gusty fulcrum
#

lol ya those are up there as my fav book series for 40k

cursive hull
#

Ciaphas Cain is the gold standard for Imperial Guard literature.

kind dove
#

597th Valhallans!

rose thorn
#

i wanna make some beastmen electropriest, does this conflict with any lore?

cursive hull
#

...Slow down, start again.

An Electropriest, like of the Mechanicus?

open marsh
cursive hull
#

I was going to say, Abhumans tend not to end up in the priesthood.

crisp heath
rose thorn
#

Ah, ive heard of people making tech priest squats so i wasnt sure

open marsh
open marsh
crisp heath
#

Cuz their all dead

cursive hull
#

Well, not all dead. Aren't some in Necromunda?

open marsh
#

The Mechanicus dont really care if you are abhuman or not. ALl they care about is how intelligent you are. How much knowledge you are capable of

cursive hull
#

Dead as a species maybe, but you know.

open marsh
#

Squats arent dead as a species. Its just their homeworlds were destroyed.

rose thorn
#

also are navigators still a thing?

open marsh
rose thorn
#

or are they just like, dead

cursive hull
#

Wat

crisp heath
open marsh
#

Navigators are required for warp travel. The Imperium would cease to exist without them

rose thorn
#

Oh neat i havent even heard of a navigator model

#

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

crisp heath
cursive hull
#

Navigators pre-date the Imperium by some margin, if I remember.

open marsh
crisp heath
open marsh
#

Yeah, Navigators were created in the DAoT to make longer warp jumps

cursive hull
#

There is a limit to that, but yeah.

#

I forget exactly when Warp Travel was invented. I know sublight generation ships are responsible for the older colonies of man.

open marsh
#

Its just without the Navigators, void ships could no longer make the warp travel needed to move around the Imperium. Essentially individual systems would be isolated from each other like they were back in the Age of Strife/Old Night

open marsh
#

So roughly around M15

cursive hull
#

Makes sense.

crisp heath
#

And they kind of went into hiatus as soon as the age of strife started when slaanesh was murder fucked into existence

#

Making warp travel virtually impossible because of the saturation of warpstorms

open marsh
#

The Warpstorms that happened as Slaanesh was forming made warp travel too unstable, even for the navigators. Which caused that cut off I mentioned

#

Its what finally killed the previous human federation

crisp heath
#

That was until the eye of terror manifested

cursive hull
#

Presumably more than a few got caught up in the paranoid murder cults against Psykers that popped up as the Age of Strife really kicked off. At least you'd think they'd not discriminate between Psykers.

open marsh
#

Yeah, when Slaanesh was finally formed and "born" the eruption of warp energy essentially blew out the warpstorms. Like using explosives to put out an oil fire

crisp heath
open marsh
novel fulcrum
#

also, navigators both already existed and also aren't psykers

cursive hull
#

You sure? I thought they were specialized?

Also, I don't think anyone would ask questions about what your superpowers come from when you're worried about being killed by enslavers.

crisp heath
novel fulcrum
#

they're affected by things that have an affect on psykers, like weaponry designed to injure them specifically, but they don't manifest warp power in the same way

open marsh
#

But its like comparing a fire hose to a tsunami

novel fulcrum
#

they don't learn psychic disciplines at all, nor are they capable of using them

cursive hull
#

...I now imagine a Navigator shooting a water hose worth of water through their third eye at someone.

open marsh
novel fulcrum
#

instead, their navigator gene grants them a more passive and innate sense of using the warp in more niche ways

open marsh
#

But they still manipulate and channel the warp. They just cant do it to the degree that other psykers can

novel fulcrum
#

those aren't disciplines, iirc they're more akin to random abilities that they can suddenly start using, much like the mutations that sprout out of nowhere

open marsh
#

They are a more specialized and refined type of psyker

cursive hull
#

I wouldn't say "Random."

open marsh
cursive hull
#

The Navigators were engineered, right?

open marsh
#

Yes

novel fulcrum
#

probably with help from big e

open marsh
#

The navigator gene is an altered version of the psyker gene

cursive hull
#

Not from my understanding.

#

That is

#

Being engineered by big E

novel fulcrum
#

nobody says he ever did it, but i mean

#

c'mon

#

some race of mutants just happens to exist for the sole purpose of solving humanity's ftl travel?

open marsh
#

He was inspired by the GENO 52 Chiliad soldiers. Who were low-tech gene engineered (via selective breeding).

novel fulcrum
#

and afaik navigators as we know them didn't exist until around then either

crisp heath
open marsh
novel fulcrum
#

i'd like to see a source on that one

cursive hull
#

I dunno... The Human Federation was supposed to be stupidly advanced, right? Given all the crap the Men of Iron used during the war they had to have been engineered with by the Federations.

I could imagine them gene splicing Navigators into existence without help.

#

Its why even Xenos go hunting for STC's once in a while, they're just too advanced to pass up.

novel fulcrum
#

but at the same time, technology also exists to navigate the warp without navigators

cursive hull
#

Well, kinda, short jumps. Not really great for speed.

novel fulcrum
#

nah, you can do short jumps unassisted by any kind of true navigation, technological or organic, although it's very inconvenient to do it that way

crisp heath
open marsh
novel fulcrum
#

sure, but then in M22, it mentions the navigator gene being cultivated to make those jumps possible, so apparently the 6e codex wrote right over rogue trader

#

good to know

#

not to mention there being two separate starts and ends to the dark age of technology

open marsh
#

yeah hence why we say that 1st edition (and to a lesser extent 2nd edition) are not canon unless that specific part is brought back up in later editions

cursive hull
#

Most of 40k lore is in limbo as is, in fairness. The fact any of us can follow a singular thread from any of it is insanity to begin with.

open marsh
#

1st edition is so vastly different from 40k that its pretty much its own setting.

Like space marines werent genetically engineered super soldiers, but instead mind wiped and reprogramed criminals

#

One of the most infamous examples is a half-human/half-eldar Astropath who was also a space marine in both the Ultramarines and Dark Angels

novel fulcrum
#

ah, didn't realize they meant like, the original rogue trader

open marsh
#

Yeh

#

The Rogue Trader RPG is canon

novel fulcrum
#

for the record, if i ever bring up rogue trader without mentioning an edition of sorts, i usually mean the latest one from ffg

open marsh
#

Also why we tend to call Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader "1st Edition" or "1e"

To try and keep from mixing it up with the Rogue Trader RPG

novel fulcrum
#

but the source on lex for the M22 citation was the og, so that's my mistake

#

ah, the newer one's just called 'Rogue Trader'
i guess i assumed it also had the WH40K in front

open marsh
#

Ye

#

But the summary is: the creation of the navigators predates the emperor's own genetic engineering programs.

#

Who discovered/developed the navigator gene is unknown. One of those "We will probably never really know" situations

novel fulcrum
#

yeh, but emps put a giant dragon in a vault on mars, so while there's no actual evidence as to who made navigators exist, i think it'd be more surprising if he wasn't involved

open marsh
#

I would think so too, until we learn that the idea of genetic engineering never even occurred to him until the Age of Strife

#

When he saw how effective the GENO soldiers were

#

Thats when he sat down and started his genetic engineering career

novel fulcrum
#

makes me wonder where that notion was established though, since they've apparently decided to change some very core things about how the established early narrative played out

#

like the existence of the 'empress' so to speak

open marsh
#

Erda

novel fulcrum
#

mhm

open marsh
#

The notion of his genetic engineering stuff? It was early in the HH series

novel fulcrum
#

more-so the notion that he never even thought about it until AoS

open marsh
#

In the novel "Legion"

novel fulcrum
#

i feel like existing during the age of technology would've shown him how effective that sort of thing could be in general

#

unless the narrative was suggesting that nobody experimented with genetically enhanced soldiers at any point during the AoT

open marsh
#

There is only the barest indication of genetic enhancement during the DAoT. Only some types of abhumans have any hint of having been such

#

And, of course, the Navigators

#

(who are technically abhumans. so eh)

novel fulcrum
#

nah, navigators are flat-out mutants

open marsh
#

Note: not everything was more advanced during the DAoT. Strangely enough. Humanity has made some advancements over it. Its just what we have lost massively outweighs what we have advanced

open marsh
novel fulcrum
#

abhumans are relatively stable, but navigators are entirely out of control to the point that they have to be locked away for their twilight years, lest someone catch a glimpse and have the navigators brought to heel

#

they are not stable in any way whatsoever

#

they mutate over the course of their entire lives

#

their paternovae look like gross frog men because of how much their bodies have degraded

open marsh
#

Different concepts of stability. They are stable in that offspring are navigators as well. And dont deteriorate further from the baseline

novel fulcrum
#

not entirely true

#

they're forced to inbreed if they want to create more navigators, as it's an entirely recessive gene, so being with any non-navigators will just result in normal children

#

and iirc they have to kill a child in its crib every so often because they've mutated so much already that they can never be allowed to see the light of day

open marsh
#

For them to be "unstable" mutants would require that they either lose their ability to see into/manipuate the warp. Or for their abilities to be so magnified that they cannot be controlled.

#

And this would have to happen with such regularity that getting usable navigators is a rarity

novel fulcrum
#

getting navigators that normal people get to see is a rarity, that's for sure

#

s'usually just a ship's command staff and their personal servants

open marsh
#

They certainly have other issues besides their third eye. But that eye is all that really matters in their classification

#

Having a functional (and controllable) third eye and the mental capacity to use it.

novel fulcrum
#

well, that's why they're essentially sanctioned mutants
but i think calling them 'abhumans' when even the official list of abhumans doesn't include navigators in their ranks is misleading

#

they're a separate species from humanity entirely, homo navigo

open marsh
#

and them having serious physical mutations is rarer than you think. Its just more common for them due to lots of inbreeding to help make sure that any offspring dont have their navigator gene diluted

novel fulcrum
#

it's absolutely not rare

open marsh
#

Its not rare but its not the norm

novel fulcrum
#

the fate of every navigator that survives to reach old age is to one day reside in their house's dungeons as a feral monster

open marsh
#

Yes, Because when your entire purpose in life is to look into the warp, it will drive you insane eventually

novel fulcrum
#

because as navigators age, they mutate

open marsh
#

Thats not from mutation. Thats from the nature of their job

novel fulcrum
#

this is straight from the rogue trader rpg

open marsh
#

Yes, due to the nature of their job. They arent born like that

novel fulcrum
#

you accrue mutations that are specific to navigators as a species

open marsh
#

Yes because you spend your entire life looking into the warp

novel fulcrum
#

looking into the warp doesn't make you mutate, it drives you insane

#

they are not one and the same

#

hence the need for separate 'insanity point' and 'corruption point' tracks

open marsh
#

When you do it with a third eye, looking into the warp and touching it are one and the same action

#

Its how they can make you combust in warp fire just by looking at you with their third eye

novel fulcrum
#

could've fooled me, because navigating the warp doesn't force you to take corruption points by default

#

there are specific circumstances that can cause this, yes, but those are also not specific to the navigator

open marsh
#

Thats a gameplay / story segregation moment because the amount of corruption is tiny compared to full on psykers

#

The advantage of having such little in the way of manipulating the warp is that, likewise, it cant touch you back as strongly.

novel fulcrum
#

yes, which is why humanity as a whole doesn't know that navigators routinely mutate

#

it happens on a relatively expected schedule that they can account for

open marsh
#

So a Navigator isnt really at risk of suddenly exploding into a chaos spawn when using their powers.

#

But over time. Those little touches to the warp add up

novel fulcrum
#

no, but again, that's because they have their own specific mutations that are yes, on the merciful side of mutation in general, but are unstable mutations nonetheless

#

even the navis scions that exist solely to make people think the navigators are beautiful, charming nobles eventually grow out of their positions due to the mutations they suffer

open marsh
#

even with "unstable mutations", that doesnt class them as mutant. Because that only happens to them later in life

#

They are still considered a stable sub-species of humanity

#

As I said earlier. Its because they can consistently produce offspring that have that third eye.

#

That is what it means to be "stable" in terms of being an abhuman

novel fulcrum
#

then why aren't they on any abhuman lists?

open marsh
#

...they are tho

#

Homo navigo

novel fulcrum
#

could have fooled me

open marsh
#

Because wikis tend to be incomplete and I have to again stress that you should never use them as a primary source of lore

novel fulcrum
#

never use them as a primary source of lore
dude, they are almost always copy-pasted passages straight from the primary sources

open marsh
#

And yet they still miss alot of info

novel fulcrum
#

these aren't people largely taking liberties to write whatever they want about these things, they just copypaste from the books

#

i'd be interested to hear a few instances of missing info the wikis have, if there's so many of them as people often seem to claim

#

not even as a passive aggressive thing, i'd like to clarify; i've just never seen someone both say the wikis are incomplete and inaccurate, and then also be able to cite a few examples to back it up

open marsh
#

Prime example here being that they missed that Navigators are classified as abhumans called "Homo navigo"

novel fulcrum
#

are there any other cases of the wiki missing info that's otherwise obviously in the setting, then?

open marsh
#

From the book Blood Reavers: a Night Lord is speaking to a navigator

#

The warrior chuckled at that. ‘A fact the slave staring at you with desire in his one remaining eye would do well to remember. Homo sapiens and Homo navigo were never meant to mix with any graceful genetic fusion. The balance of your pheromones is a curious one. I am surprised you do not repel one another.’

novel fulcrum
#

calling them homo-navigo should be an argument against them being a sub-species of humanity

open marsh
#

No. because thats how abhumans are classified

novel fulcrum
#

or do we call humanity a sub-species of homo-habilis and the like?

open marsh
#

Mutants dont get such names

#

Like Ogryns are Homo gigantus

#

Squats are Homo rotundas

novel fulcrum
#

no, ogryns are called homo sapiens gigantus

#

and ratlings are homo sapiens minimus

#

but navigators are just homo navigo

#

this implies that they are distinctly non-human

#

but not in an alien sort of way

open marsh
novel fulcrum
#

more like how the neanderthals were non-human: extremely similar and capable of creating offspring together, but still distinct

#

well, there aren't any other sanctioned mutants, now, are there? kind of hard to compare to other cases when there's just the one

open marsh
#

From the Navis Primer (Rogue Trader RPG)

#

While the vast majority of those with the capacity to touch or behold the fearsome power of the Warp come into what is at once their vocation and their damnation in this way, for a rare class it is a matter of birthright and genetics. These are the Navigators, a unique strain of Humanity gifted with a third eye through which they can peer into the Warp without being driven utterly insane.

#

mutants arent considered a "strain" of humanity. Mutants are just mutant

#

Here. from Liber Xenologis. The explaination of the difference between an abhuman and a mutant:

unknown.png
#

as in their mutations re beneficial, and repeatable (i.e. if a navigator has an offspring, that offspring is also a navigator. Instead of being born with some other random mutation)

#

That they tend to go insane and mutate later in life is completely irrelevant to this designation

novel fulcrum
#

i'm trying to bring up other sources i've found cited that might suggest otherwise, but by god the trove is so fucking slow tonight

#

so i'll just say outright that i'm not just clamming up on this one, it's just taking a while

open marsh
#

The fact they are sanctioned at all. And produce offspring with the designed trait, means they are abhumans

novel fulcrum
#

navigators are one of few abhuman races that intentionally recreate that trait

open marsh
#

Here, from the Rogue Trader core rulebook

novel fulcrum
#

yes, i'm seeing it, but i saw mention of navigators being called 'imperial-sanctioned mutants and i'm just trying to see if i can find that in one of the sourcebooks

#

could be a more recent release as opposed to the rogue trader books, like with that clarification on the navigators emerging at a different point of the human timeline from 6e

open marsh
#

"sanctioned mutants" is another term for abhuman

#

Since their mutations are sanctioned by the Imperium

novel fulcrum
#

i don't believe that's true though

#

they don't keep ogryns and ratlings around purely because they're 'useful'

#

they've determined that they can't be considered mutants, because their genetics match so closely to baseline humanity's that they're still recognized as being human, albeit evolved to suit their environments

#

if they do deviate from humanity's genetics to an unacceptable extent, that's when they're considered mutants, the line between these two being drawn right about at where beastmen are

open marsh
novel fulcrum
#

since last i recall, beastmen were basically in the process of almost being considered officially mutants, but not at that moment

open marsh
#

The usefulness of an abhuman strain is why the Beastmen are on the verge of losing their abhuman status

#

Since they are being seen more and more as a danger to baseline humanity than an asset

novel fulcrum
#

i don't see why they would be any less useful than humanity though, besides the fact that beastmen are some of the most notable chaos worshippers, alongside humans

open marsh
#

Harder to control and tend to fall to Chaos (ironically due to their already poor treatment by the Imperium)

novel fulcrum
#

just like other humans :^)

#

but yes, while being useful has a hand in it, it's not just that
a race can be as useful as it wants to be, but if it can't be drawn to the human genome to an extensive degree, it will be rejected and subsequentally purged

open marsh
#

Its a catch 22 of the Beastmen. They are treated like shit because they look so different than baseline humanity, this drives them to join Chaos because Chaos is a more equal oppertunity employer. Imperium decides that it must be a flaw in the Beastmen's genecode that causes them to do that, not how poorly they are treated.

novel fulcrum
#

that's probably how they handle any non-baseline humans that defect tbh

#

'that astartes chapter went renegade? must've been a gene-flaw'

open marsh
#

Sometimes. if its a particular family that has too many members fall to chaos. They will decide that family line needs to end

#

Also. If it helps. there is a 3rd classification. A stable mutated strain of humanity but they are so far removed from humanity (or too dangerous) that they arent called abhuman. But their deviations are stable (again, as in that offspring will also have these deviations. Not that they dont mutate later on an individual basis). They are classed under "Xenos Horrificus"

novel fulcrum
#

well, that source right there says that anything under that classification has to die

open marsh
#

yup

novel fulcrum
#

so while interesting to know, i dunno if it would apply in the case of the navigator subject matter

#

although that 'register of proscribed citizens' would be interesting to know more about

open marsh
#

It doesnt. just its useful to know when discussing the difference between abhumans and mutants

novel fulcrum
#

what's interesting here though, is that it's an ordo xenos classification

#

even though the ordo hereticus is the arm handling mutants

#

granted, the line does get blurry in cases like that i suppose, but the fact that they slapped 'homo sapiens' on the beastmen to begin with implies they recognize a strong degree of humanity in them, so that detail at least feels like an outright 'whoops'

open marsh
#

Yeah, because Xenos Horrificus means that its a whole race of things. Not a single mutant or a small group of mutated former humans

novel fulcrum
#

xenos implies alien

#

in fact, not even implies, it just means alien

open marsh
#

Yes. As far as humanity is concerned, such deviations makes them the same as xenos

novel fulcrum
#

but they're homo sapiens variatus

#

they've very clearly been determined to not be aliens

#

so if anything, it would be a hereticus mutant-purge

open marsh
#

Its like the warlords of Barbarus, Mortarion's homeworld. They were considered xenos, despite being still so genetically similar to humans that they were genetically compatible. With Typhon/Typhus being a hybrid

open marsh
novel fulcrum
#

but they were, and as far as i'm aware still are on the abhuman list, making them distinctly not xenos

open marsh
#

They currently are still classified abhuman. Yes. But when they lose they designation, they are reclassified as xenos

novel fulcrum
#

but that makes zero sense
which i understand is how the entire imperium works, but again
it's not even the ordo xenos' place to make that choice

#

they're already considered a strain of humanity, one would imagine if anyone would get to wipe them out, it would be the arm that handles the threat within

open marsh
#

Nope. Because its a whole species that needs to be eradicated. The enemy within mostly refers to groups who are in small isolated pockets. Cultists, traitors, and mutants. A species losing their abhuman status are an entire species that needs to be eliminated. So it becomes no different than wiping out any other xenos species. Such things are best delegated to the Ordo Xenos

novel fulcrum
#

it's incredibly different, because they are, no matter how tenatively, the emperor's people

open marsh
#

Not anymore they arent

novel fulcrum
#

they are integrated with imperial society, they are citizens of the imperium, they fight in wars alongside the rest of the emperor's people
they aren't some separate empire or swarm encroaching on humanity from the outside or some other horrid thing beyond the light of the astronomican, they're right with the rest of them

novel fulcrum
#

that quote claimed that they would almost assuredly be removed and eradicated soon, but that has never come to pass

open marsh
#

Once they lose that status, they are no longer citizens of the Imperium, will be executed by their guard units, and otherwise hunted down

worn dagger
#

Which with the Imperium could happen tomarrow or never.

novel fulcrum
#

right

open marsh
#

and again, they are considered xenos, and diff from mutant in that its an entire species.

novel fulcrum
#

but the distinction that's important to make is that it hasn't happened

#

they are not

#

the edict has never passed

#

they are still abhumans

open marsh
#

I didnt say it has

#

Im just saying what will happen if it does

novel fulcrum
open marsh
#

(or stable species that were never given that designation)

novel fulcrum
#

well, considering the topic was beastmen, that wasn't inherently clear at the moment

#

but i just find it hard to believe they can just call them xenos when xenos would make them distinctly non-human

#

which they are not, because to get on the abhuman list in the first place, you have to have a strong link to the human genome

cursive hull
#

Xenophobia.

#

The Imperium is pretty strict about what is and what is not human in the first place.

Also, the fact the Imperium sort of encourages the whole "They are different, therefor, not human." line of thinking a lot.

open marsh
novel fulcrum
#

there is a big difference between:

  1. calling a race that isn't human xenos
    and
  2. calling a race that is descended from humanity abhuman, and then later calling them xenos
open marsh
#

Not to the imperium

#

There is no difference

#

There may be a difference to you, but not to them

novel fulcrum
#

i hate this part of talking about the setting

#

because at the end of the day, you're right

#

you can't use logic to talk about anything

cursive hull
#

Its not logical, because racism/xenophobia isn't logical.

novel fulcrum
#

sure, but xenophobia is very clearly not used in the same context in 40k as it is in real life

cursive hull
#

It is used a bit more literally in this case, yes.

#

But its still the case.

open marsh
#

I mean. I personally see the logic. If its an entire species that is not human nor abhuman (even if they used to be abhuman, they are no longer). Then as far as anything that matters, they are no different than xenos in how they are to be dealt with.

#

Its not our logic, but its the logic of the Imperium

novel fulcrum
#

but that ordo xenos edict didn't even say they were eradicated for being too different

#

they were being eradicated for being dangerous, and being dangerous does not make you different

open marsh
#

again, Im not referring to Beastmen, but to species of human descent that arent considered abhuman

novel fulcrum
#

right, but they were using it to refer to beastmen

#

that was their supposed fate in the near future

open marsh
#

No. Im referring to "species of human descent that arent considered abhuman"

#

Like my earlier example, the warlords of Barbarus

novel fulcrum
#

i hear what you're refering to, but i'm talking about what that passage you shared is refering to

open marsh
#

Remember that part of getting abhuman status is that the species is beneficial to baseline humanity

#

If you become more of a danger then you fail that criteria

novel fulcrum
#

the dude specifically says that they expect beastmen to be named xenos horrificus, which itself states that it is a line not ended due to genetic deviation, but purely because of a danger they pose, which could theoretically be applied to any part of the imperium at will

worn dagger
#

There are less mutated strains of Beastmen that the Imperium does look in a more favorable light and I do wonder how their lore might change. How long ago was that last excerpt about Beastmen added to the lore? Since even if it's noted he is a rare occourance I do believe it is noted to be a big thing that Gor Half-Horn is a sanctioned Bounty Hunter.

open marsh
novel fulcrum
#

i'm pretty sure the only imperial beastmen reference there's been lately is just them still being on the abhuman list

open marsh
#

Yes. But only barely being on that list

#

As is mentioned here

novel fulcrum
#

luckily, barely is good enough

open marsh
#

idk why you keep thinking anyone is saying they arent on the list of abhumans

#

noone has said that

novel fulcrum
#

i feel like calling them 'xenos' after they've already been called 'abhumans' is an inherently logic-lacking classification, by any sense of known rationality
the ordo xenos' duty is to face outward into the unknown and keep anything there out of our sight, while the ordo hereticus specializes in wiping out threats of the imperium that lurk within its borders

open marsh
#

Then you misunderstand what the imperial definition of xenos is

novel fulcrum
#

even if it's an entire strain of humanity being sentenced to die, even if they were somehow logically considered to be an alien race, they are still integrated with imperial organizations and would best be rooted out by people that already specialize in doing so

open marsh
#

xenos =/= has no links to humanity.

xenos = a species that is neither human nor abhuman

grave dragon
#

yes

stray kestrel
#

I was under the impression 40k beastmen were sanctioned abhumans just like Ogryns and Ratlings. And are nothing at all like the Fantasy beastmen for some reason. Can't you field an entirely beastmen army in 30k?

novel fulcrum
#

in 30k, absolutely
it's only more recently in the timeline that they've come under more severe scrutiny

open marsh
stray kestrel
#

ah okay

#

my bad, I walked into the convo late and didn't scroll up enough

novel fulcrum
primal tide
#

dude it is WAY too early in the year for christmas

novel fulcrum
#

i still wonder what would be most closely considered to be 40k's christmas
sanguinalia? the feast of the emperor's ascension? whatever rogal dorn's day is called?

#

oh, apparently there's a day just called 'candlemass'

#

although it just marks the year's transition, so not necessarily any major gift-giving festivities

cursive hull
#

As far as I'm aware, the closest thing is Sanguinala.

sick bramble
#

Is it bannable to talk about the chaos gods?

odd tulip
#

only malal

wraith halo
#

banned

cerulean wagon
#

i'll miss gawain

open marsh
#

malice is okay to discuss tho

odd sparrow
#

b&

storm jungle
#

Just call him Malal

#

Malice is even more edgy and exists just because GW is cheap and doesnt wanna pay anyone lol

cloud kindle
#

malal doesnt exist shut up about him -Pope shafthat the 24th

novel fulcrum
#

you can't talk about the copyright of which the great lords do not possess, and so it is malice of whom we speak

cursive hull
#

Honestly, could have called him Anarchy and it still would have worked.

novel fulcrum
#

i like the idea of malal, being the only true force of actual chaos in the warp, not really working towards a dominant end but just stirring up trouble for the sake of it, or out of hatred for everything else

#

but i'm a wild card-loving dude and it's honestly a wonder that i'm not an eldar fan of some kind at this point, to be quite honest

cursive hull
#

Prefer Ad Mech myself.

cloud kindle
#

how dare you

torpid totem
#

Wait I put this in the wrong place

novel fulcrum
#

i love the ad mech as well, the transhumanist dogma was always an interest of mine

#

that new skitarii officer seems pretty neat, looking forward to a little more insight there in their next codex

barren tapir
#

Agree

#

But lets be honest, the archeotopter, the pteraxi and all the weird stuff with weird "wings" are awful... And the cowboys too

visual pumice
#

they're cool

#

more steam punk than their typical look

novel fulcrum
#

i'm not sure at all how i feel about the new flying machine motif they're pushing onto them

barren tapir
#

I disagree with that

#

They are awful

novel fulcrum
#

may as well just bring back the squats if that's something they seriously want to reintroduce to the setting, because they'd be all over it

barren tapir
#

These are sick

#

The skitarii rangers are sick, the vnaguard are ok-ish...
The pteraxi are awful

novel fulcrum
#

also, cowboys? do the mechanicus now also have some kind of mech suit that has a big iron?

barren tapir
#

Even this, which is an hoplite is better than the pteraxi

novel fulcrum
#

because i really don't think the invictus warsuit needed a friend

barren tapir
visual pumice
#

just different flavours of skitarii really though

novel fulcrum
#

i think i'm actually rather okay with this one

barren tapir
#

I don't like the mount, give me a dirt bike, but the riders aren't that bad

novel fulcrum
#

horses and other mounts are actually rather normal in the imperial guard, why not in the mechanicus?

visual pumice
#

flesh

novel fulcrum
#

and the weapons are rather on brand i dare say

#

although i'd like to get a better look at that melee weapon the alpha's holding

barren tapir
visual pumice
#

i just like the juxtaposition of them wanting to augment themselves yet still using "designs" found in nature

barren tapir
novel fulcrum
barren tapir
visual pumice
#

well clearly they do and don't realise it then

novel fulcrum
barren tapir
visual pumice
#

yeah

barren tapir
#

It is just a weird direction that GW has taken with the pteraxi, the cowboys and the archeotopter

novel fulcrum
#

if they didn't have any respect for nature, they'd just be using ai-controlled robots and passing them off as servitors instead of actually going to the trouble of keeping a lobotomized human just barely organic enough to meet imperial edicts, because honestly, who's going to know enough to actually tell the difference outside of the priesthood?

visual pumice
#

you can contradict yourself

barren tapir
novel fulcrum
#

the Mechanicus* outlaws everything that doesn't already exist on a floppy disk somewhere, and yet this new shit just shows up
where do you think it comes from? because STCs are in rather short supply, my friend

barren tapir
novel fulcrum
#

of course, because they're known for finding so many in short periods of time, truly this is a golden age

barren tapir
#

Regarding STC short supply it is not entirely true, mars have a lot of stuff, it is just that the repositories are dangerous places because of heresy stuff

novel fulcrum
#

okay

#

saying that STCs aren't in short supply because they have an entire library of daemon-infested ones in their basement is like saying that the used car lot over yonder doesn't have a shortage of stock because they just got in a shipment of cars filled with beehives

the point being, nobody is touching those, period

barren tapir
#

Now, returning to the pteraxi, cowboys and archeotopter, i don't like their style because i find them out of character for the mechanicus...

cursive hull
#

It could be the Ad Mech have had the tech to make most of the "New" stuff for a while. They just didn't feel like they needed to use it till now.

Ryza hid the fact they had an entire force of Imperial Knights up until it was required to use them to keep Ryza from falling into traitorous hands.

novel fulcrum
#

the difference there is that you cannot manufacture imperial knights anymore

barren tapir
plucky moth
#

I'm the the 5th chaos god actually

#

lord of puns

novel fulcrum
#

they're all archeotech, like the titan legions

barren tapir
cursive hull
#

Either way, I disagree with the concept of these new units not fitting the Ad Mech. I think it does, in a sense. The Pteraxi are the largest stretch by they bring up the design elements of Da Vinci.

The Archaeopter is tenuous at best, I agree on that, but I can see what they were going for.

I disagree very strongly with the Serberys raiders and Sulpher hounds not fitting. They're pretty well themed.

storm jungle
#

I only dislike the archeocopter, i really wish it had rotors instead of dumbass wings

#

BUT GW could win me over by giving admech a da vinci tank

cursive hull
#

They look like Dragoons from the Napoleonic wars mixed with robots, the Serberys that is, and the Sulpher hounds.

I think its neat to have more leg based fast movers than generic bikes and quads.

novel fulcrum
#

i'll admit, after further review, apparently i was mistaken on my previous point, but i could have swore that the mechanicus engaged in brutal, phyrric wars just to recover titan remains so they could be potentially repaired, so i guess i just thought that meant they were irreplaceable

barren tapir
visual pumice
cursive hull
#

They're Dragoons, not cowboys, the Pedant in me is upset.

barren tapir
novel fulcrum
cursive hull
#

(Also yes, it'd be weird for the Ad mech not to go running for what they openly call a "God Machine." )

#

Final Fantasy's Dragoons are weird and I dislike them.

barren tapir
cursive hull
#

The Sulpher Hounds use the pistols.

#

The Serberys use rifles

barren tapir
#

Even the riders

cursive hull
#

The sergeant maybe.

serberysraiders.jpg
novel fulcrum
#

well, that one rider who i assume is their alpha(?) is holding a revolver

cursive hull
#

But those are clearly rifles.

barren tapir
#

Carbines

#

Those are carbines

#

Like the cowboys used the wincherster

#

Oh, look, that also look like an american cowboy carbine

cursive hull
#

If you want to be pedantic, it looks like an M1 Carbine made babiies with a revolving rifle.

cerulean wagon
#

i mean

cursive hull
#

But the general consensus that yes, those are Carbines, a weapon used by Dragoons and random cowboys alike, is true.

cerulean wagon
#

horse back dragoons use carbines

#

thats literaly standard

#

and thats a carbinized version of the galvanic rifle

novel fulcrum
#

the mechanicus has a long and storied history of using kinetic weapons that look like a mish-mash of ancient firearms, not always us-oriented, but often enough

cerulean wagon
#

just this but short

cursive hull
#

I also go with Dragoon because of the way the squad lead is holding his sword.

novel fulcrum
#

arquebus is obviously more of a european thing

cursive hull
#

And an older concept.

#

But yes, that sword pose is genuine, and typically used by mounted cavalry.

novel fulcrum
#

van saar's right though, dragoons did traditionally dismount to actually fight

cursive hull
#

This is true

barren tapir
novel fulcrum
#

i'd just call 'em the mechanicus' answer to rough riders and call it a day, personally

storm jungle
#

a gun is a gun

cursive hull
#

Not to me

#

I am the ultra pedant

cerulean wagon
#

they are legit just rough rider/dragoons

barren tapir
cerulean wagon
#

people just see revolver and think cowboy despite literaly everyone using revolvers

barren tapir
#

Eh, that part was more a meme from my part... I really need to understand why people cannot get my humor

cerulean wagon
#

it was used by officers all the way up until ww2 for the brits, and america had revolvers from civil war through to 1911

novel fulcrum
#

it's always been kind of funny to me how, at least when it comes to skitarii ranger armaments, the guardsmen seem to have more synthetic weapons than the mechanicus

#

mars and the nearby tree world must be tight

barren tapir
#

I have found a really nice explanation, although not official
You see, wood is rare, so it is precious, having a weapon with some wood is a status symbol

cursive hull
#

In fairness, Guardsmen don't really need fancy schmancy wooden furniture for their guns. As implied above.

novel fulcrum
#

i believe you, since the whole thing about the vostroyan firstborn is that they have really nice archeotech lasguns they pass on through the generations, and they also hold hands with the mechanicus

cursive hull
#

Something something... Las-lock

barren tapir
#

Regarding nomenclature the Ad. Mech. had always been interested in the past, so using old nomenclature, like arquebus is part of their ideology as a link to the past

cursive hull
#

This is also true.

novel fulcrum
#

that's not an unfair assessment, i think

cursive hull
#

The Ad Mech do prefer to use older, more archaic nomenclature, and it sort of fits their whole asthetic very well.

novel fulcrum
#

but then you just kinda spoke in favor of those new flying machines, albeit indirectly

barren tapir
barren tapir
still canyon
#

FUCK the wings

novel fulcrum
#

yeah, i'm not saying every single rifle is from the day vostroya swore their firstborn tithe, although i would wager a good few of them still are

barren tapir
#

TBF the archeotopter without their weird wings, and with decent ones is quite nice

barren tapir
novel fulcrum
#

49% is still the minority :^)
but yes, it's probably more of a thing for the more decorated riflemen

barren tapir
#

Since entire vostroyan regiments can, and did, get destroyed, but then recreated with the same name

novel fulcrum
#

can't let a perfectly good and unused name go to waste

barren tapir
#

And lets be honest, the heirloom rifle thing make no sense, as only the firstborn get sent to the regiments, and if they are in the regiment hardly they have offsprings, and if they have they cannot give them their rifle since are still on duty

#

Otherwise how can you have an heirloom rifle on vostroya if you never was in the regiment since you aren't a firstborn?

cursive hull
#

Well, it isn't unheard of for people to be literally born into an IG regiment. If they are the firstborn of a particular guardsperson...

#

It'd be rare, this is true.

Especially because most guardsmen die in ways that make the majority of their gear hard or impossible to repair or retrieve.

barren tapir
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and if they have they cannot give them their rifle since are still on duty
I thought of that too

barren tapir
novel fulcrum
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i think heirloom is less 'family heirloom' and more 'planetary heirloom' in this context

barren tapir
#

How did they managed to recover all those rifles?

novel fulcrum
#

or perhaps even regimental heirlooms, for the ones still fortunate enough to have them

#

same way they always do? pick the battlefields after skirmishes when they can, salvage what's left

barren tapir
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Ok, that the firstborn are unique as they get constant new recruits from their homeworld, but that is too much imo

barren tapir
novel fulcrum
#

why is it too much? are we assuming that all wargear is routinely lost in its entirety by every regiment?

barren tapir
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No, it depend a lot on the type of engagement

cursive hull
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Depends on what killed the Guardsmen.

#

Being melted by a direct hit from a plasma gun tends to reduce the wargear down to an unusable state.

barren tapir
#

Or you know, using it to try to block an ork choppa

#

Or being caught in a blast of an explosive...

#

And lets not forget chaos taint if you happen to fight chaos

odd sparrow
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No reason why stuff would be rendered unusable by a blast, unless it's like

#

Literally a shell landing on the dude

barren tapir
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Sure, salvaging stuff and recovering things is still done when possible

odd sparrow
#

Which would be an F

novel fulcrum
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i recall being told rather vehemently in here a while back that nobody actually cares if wargear is touched by or even belonged to a traitor, apparently

barren tapir
cursive hull
#

Depends on the traitor, I'd say.

#

ANd for how long.

barren tapir
novel fulcrum
#

of course, because the daemonic taint can't get into your charge pack immediately; it's just built different

barren tapir
#

I think that referring to traitors you mean vrask... Right?

cursive hull
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Take a bolter off a Chaos Marine, that's probably a very bad idea.

But some random Heretic who picked up a las gun from a depot on the planet they're revolting on? Eh, probably alright.

novel fulcrum
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i mean, i'm just talking about traitors in general, who are heretics who i previously believed would be using tainted wargear by the sin of being possessed by heretics

barren tapir
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In general traitors stuff isn't a problem, chaos stuff on the other hand is

novel fulcrum
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this is the imperium we're talking about here

#

logic doesn't dictate their reality

barren tapir
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Sure, but one thing is using stuff from a militia than has rebelled because they want to be independent, one thing is using stuff from the blood pact

cursive hull
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Well yeah, that's kind of a thing.

"Traitor" is one thing. "Heretic" is entirely another. All heretics are traitors, but not all traitors are heretics.

novel fulcrum
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i dunno, sounds like you know the difference which is heresy, die heretic

barren tapir
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I know it can be confusing for new people, but there are some subtle differences that actually are really big and importnant

novel fulcrum
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to be a traitor is to fight against the forces of the god emperor of mankind
to oppose the god-emperor of mankind is heresy

barren tapir
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See, that is why traitor and heretic is often used as the same thing, but they aren't

novel fulcrum
#

so explain how they aren't then

barren tapir
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The best example is with SM, some SM can be traitor, and yet not chaos space marine

novel fulcrum
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it seems to be that denouncing the one true god of the imperium is pure heresy to me

cursive hull
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Not all traitorous rebellions necessarily dislike the Emperor though.

novel fulcrum
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they must, for they oppose the emperor's will