40k-lore-chat

[hallow saddle]

no they're fucking demented

[radiant lance]

Space marines at home

[hallow saddle]

ppl cry about lack of flavour and customisation then complain when they get some

[wintry scarab]

What? Were those models not received well or something?

[hallow saddle]

not really, from what I saw on Reddit anyway

[wintry scarab]

Im slowly starting to realize that i like what the majority dont lol

[storm jungle]

They're basically "trolleymen" for people that want to lower into Secundus which is the nuked hive on the planet due to GSC

its why they got that scuba-gearesque aesthetic and diver chronometers and shit, its great

[queen laurel]

Lugrun is the best Ogryn mini in 40k

[hallow saddle]

this is even more demented considering you paint the models in whatever colour you want lmaooooo

I think lots of the complainers don't even paint anything

[storm jungle]

Nope they do not. The reality they dont wanna accept is 90% of the 40k customerbase does not give a single fuck about any of this shit and are just here to play tabletop.

[wintry scarab]

Thats cool as hell. I just love the darktide slum vibe of necromunda. 40k models just have a totally different vibe.

[storm jungle]

Yeah munda lore is great, it has like over 10-plus rulebooks of narrative stuff

[radiant lance]

Just here to buy more space marines*

[storm jungle]

Same shit

[remote wadi]

Actually I think there's more wh40k lore fans than tabletop players

[dapper gyro]

Are the heads even new and not repackaged?

[queen laurel]

They are new heads for a kit

[radiant lance]

Looking up things is free
Tabletop is very un free

[dapper gyro]

I remember old SMs heads are much worse.

Literal mutants

[wintry scarab]

Random rant: I hate it when people say "This model fuckig sucks" and then proceed to explain that the part they dont like was because of the paintjob and not the actual model. A bunch of models look weird because of the GW style they had at the time of painting that model.

[queen laurel]

new heads and helmets basically

but apparently fans think that some of the heads are too feminine

i do not literally see what they are talking about

[remote wadi]

130€ for basic units u don't want is too much

[dapper gyro]

Eternal level take (not you, but your example)

[remote wadi]

40€ for lucius is fair and balanced

[radiant lance]

"you can always tell" type of energy

[remote wadi]

But to be fair they print in resin and shit is expensive for them too

But they should sell stl official files

For personal use only

[storm jungle]

Correct but the reality is the lore-fans provide nothing to the IP thus their opinion is largely very ignorable and not worth investing into.

[dapper gyro]

I saw the complaints everywhere. I just want clear info because old heads are not much better.

Correct, I'm a parasite.

[remote wadi]

Basically they should sell you a key to print a model in worst material

[queen laurel]

this is why even if i don't play the table top i have basic knowledge on the tabletop scene because without the table top

I will not have my lore slop

[dapper gyro]

You guys spend money so I can complain.

[remote wadi]

Honestly I did avoid spending much

After I got Magnus and ahriman

I 3d print some proxies sometimes

[hallow saddle]

ya I think this is true

[remote wadi]

I don't play tournaments so I don't need official ones

[wintry scarab]

I know no one cares but im still going to say it because i care, i really like how we are slowly getting more variety with sm helmets. I like it 🙂

[storm jungle]

[vagrant fox]

the woker 🫵

[spring cairn]

i'm the woker baby

[vagrant fox]

speaking of the wokers and chuds I have an associate who keeps posting jantovich

mildly gay

[burnt maple]

My friends are dragging me to play KT. My opinion will matter at long last.

[burnt maple]

Bad paintjobs, imho.

Then again I am of the opinion that sm should always wear helmets.

[surreal nest]

WOWEWE

[tough haven]

I think its the creator, not the creation

[surreal nest]

Yeah the creator is a full chud

[wintry scarab]

Counterpoint: Not all space marines wear helmets because most of them mega egotistical killing machines. Whats more ego strokey? Wearing a pussy ass helmet to protect your little head or showing the enemy your weakspot and saying "just try and kill me"? (Until they actually kill you because youre an idiot for not wearing head protection lol)

[dapper gyro]

Their face is their shield.

Imagine that scene from Secret Level but the Sgt didn't have the helmet.

[near wasp]

Not wearing a helmet gives a plus 2 to will saves due to plot armor

[dapper gyro]

Short story would end right there.

[near wasp]

Love how the cultist who watches his buddy shoot the Marine looks over at him like "bruh you thought that'd work?

[hallow saddle]

bladeguard have an iron halo I think?

[valid needle]

“Women??? in my fascist imperialistic empire??? HERESY!”

[hallow saddle]

like that's one of the things taken from dune, melee combat is important cause protection fields exist

[remote wadi]

Brother they are in a war

They want anything that will make sure they survive

[dapper gyro]

A decoration halo, not an actual one.

Also in lore, bolter is weaker in close range because the gyrojet hasn't activated.

I kind of appreciate that Tittitus put the helmet back on at the end.

[near wasp]

It's still an explosive .950

[dapper gyro]

Explosive doesn't do much vs armour, also there is a thing called arming distance.

[near wasp]

You think the imperium cares about arming distance?

[dapper gyro]

Yes, because it wasn't the only case such thing happened.

Some dude in carapace armour survived because of that.

[near wasp]

Also explosives do work against armor you know what a hesh round is right

[dapper gyro]

Yeah, but bolter isn't hesh.

[near wasp]

Fair

[dapper gyro]

It is not even heat.

HESH can only do armour back face deformation on solid metal btw. VS anything else, it doesn't transfer much energy. No one but the UK used hesh since the 1990s, even then the UK uses it as HE and not anti armoured.

[near wasp]

Ok tbf tanks in 40k are way more armored than tanks irl and given bolters can be effective against "lightly" armored vehicles it might be considered heat by modern standards

[dapper gyro]

Except that many times it is said to penetrate before exploding, so it is SAP. Heat works the other way around.

[near wasp]

Ah

[dapper gyro]

Vs light armoured anything goes, "medium" heavy bolter works just as good in lore.

"heavy" heavy stubber* can make spare marine run.

[near wasp]

Armored units and arms confound me sometimes.

I'm a small arms guy

[dapper gyro]

All of the dudes I used to play with during my teens are all in the militaries now.

[near wasp]

Most I got was a former friend of mine used to work for a gun manufacturer

[remote wadi]

Btw what's the relation between space wolves and Luna wolves I mean they both have different primarchs but they were both Norse mythology

[storm jungle]

They dont have norse mythology

Luna Wolves' aesthetic is more european barbarians

theres zero relation

[celest dome]

Viking vs Goths

[storm jungle]

Yea especially going more into Luna Wolves to Sons of Horus

[remote wadi]

Oh ok

Also I changed my roleplay of dark pacts to make it less cult like,since chaos undivided use the gods as tools

Khorne:give me strength and I shall give you blood
Nurgle:I will spread Ur gift onto my enemies
Tzeentch:give me the knowledge I require nothing else
Slaneesh : Ur biggest pleasure is to empower me
Chaos undivided: gods give Ur power for I shall release chaos on my enemies

This is what I ended with

[young pecan]

Or, in Space Marine 2, lightly tickle a gaunt

[vital ginkgo]

Does the 13th geneseed organ that produces melanin do this almost instantly, very quickly or is it just a slightly shorter tanning process? If it is like a tanning process what is the point? It would seem like almost a waste to have it

[remote wadi]

There's not much information about that

I would think it's a quick process

[vital ginkgo]

Also are there any known instances of a pale marine like ravenguard or nightlords getting sunburn?

Emperor's children too

Since their 13th organ is defective

[rocky gale]

Day 3 of 13th organ discussion

[vital ginkgo]

Lol

[remote wadi]

To be fair he just has lore questions

I don't think there is tho

Mostly cause they usually deploy at dark

[rocky gale]

If it gets to day 5 I'm showing my 13th organ

[spring cairn]

you can't do that

[crystal forum]

i can

[spring cairn]

no way

[valid needle]

Bro is obsessed with the 13th organ

[lament shoal]

Are chaos eldar a thing?

[storm jungle]

Barely

[vagrant fox]

Not officially retconned but I don't think they've been mentioned in like 20 plus years as far as I can remember

[storm jungle]

but they exist

[lament shoal]

Gotcha, thx guys

[storm jungle]

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaotic_Eldar

[vagrant fox]

Or maybe there was one in the Path of the Renegade, I don't remember. At least 15 years or something

[storm jungle]

They very much exist as recently as 8th edition

its more that chaos eldar are pretty "eh i guess they are there" kind of thing

mostly due to the fact that chaos can offer nothing to eldar too lol

[vagrant fox]

I'll have to look into that, it's been a while since I did

[storm jungle]

Yeah its just codex texts mostly

all of it is on the lexi page

[vagrant fox]

more like lexidon'tum

[valid needle]

Just like The Angel

[vagrant fox]

ok that explains it, poop guard codex

[valid needle]

The Angel would be a cool part of oldhammer to be brought back and unleashed on the universe.

Lion El’Jonson finding out he is Infact not the first.

[storm jungle]

They appear in Bile's Manflayer book as well which was in 2021

[vagrant fox]

The one I didn't get around to, I've just managed to miss out on all these bits by being so cool

[dapper gyro]

The guard is lore accurate, while the SMs is power fantasy.

[valid needle]

Goku vs space marine

Who wins

[storm jungle]

[dapper gyro]

Goku doesn't use ammo.

[surreal nest]

technically....

https://tenor.com/view/doorman-the-doorman-deadlock-hop-on-deadlock-hmm-no-i-disagree-gif-7212519985280648070

[vital ginkgo]

What is this symbol? Who is allowed to wear it?

[spring cairn]

my goat

[valid needle]

Veterans and terminators

[storm jungle]

Its just generic trinkets veteran marines wear

[remote wadi]

Honestly Goku already exists in Warhammer it's just khorne

Chaos god of working out and beating the shit out of something

[vagrant fox]

gokert...

[vagrant fox]

who is this jezebel

[young pecan]

https://tenor.com/view/screaming-mad-fish-sponge-bob-angry-gif-12369198217513035864

[languid meadow]

absolute green arrow

[remote wadi]

Noice

[crystal forum]

i had to use reddit today

to find a short film that i can't get out of my brain

struck deep inside my brain as a kid and now i can't find it anywhere

[celest dome]

Did you find it or are you still looking for it ?

[crystal forum]

still looking

it was just some short film from more than a decade ago that i saw on a flight

on those entertainment screens

about robots replacing people

and the main character ends up killed in surgery by robots

oh god this is going to end up being one of those things where i will never find the answer to this

[spring cairn]

Can't find your thing

couple of shorts but they don't exactly match your description

[rose thorn]

2010?!?!?!?!?

THIS GOT LROE IN 2010

[remote wadi]

Join chaos undivided we have just the right amount of cookies

[lament shoal]

Two sides of the same low IQ coin

Artist is N0ttomuch

[remote wadi]

This is a funny meme tho

But I wanna point out there's regular iq reasons for no female marines

And slaneesh is the reason for it

[celest dome]

No ?

[rose thorn]

every time you go into a GW store you have ot show your wedding ring

[rose thorn]

no?

[remote wadi]

Emperor sons could self reproduce if they male and female

[celest dome]

No ?

[remote wadi]

The castration is chemical
Chaos doesn't give a fck about chemical balance

[rose thorn]

are you okay?

they are genetically unable to reproduce-

[celest dome]

I think that would be a no too

[rose thorn]

lmao

[remote wadi]

Honestly I'm better than ok

I'm gonna be a father in a month

[rose thorn]

congrats

[remote wadi]

Thanks

[lament shoal]

I'm fairly certain that this isn't the case

[remote wadi]

Slaneesh is the god of excess

Chemical castration is bound to hormonal control

Aka hormonal excess means they can

(I'm taking this too much into the biology lvl tho)

[storm jungle]

It has nothing to do with slaanesh

SEX ISNT ALWAYS RELATED TO SLAANESH

AUAAAAAGHHHH

[lament shoal]

They're not chemically castrated

[remote wadi]

I know

[lament shoal]

Its genetic

[remote wadi]

But slaneesh can counter the castration

[storm jungle]

me rn

[rocky gale]

If there were male and female space marines and two from the same legion had kids, would the Geneseed make them inbred?

[lament shoal]

Read what I said

Their ability to reproduce has been removed through genetic modification

Its not chemically altered

[celest dome]

Or is excessive abstinence

And please Slaanesh

[remote wadi]

Yes

[remote wadi]

Ok but doesn't that also remove the female marines argument

Since that would mean they are genderless

Eventho they were male before

[valid needle]

They aren’t castrated

[near wasp]

First thing I see when I tune into chat. Another great day at lore chat

[valid needle]

Yes

[arctic talon]

Forcing someone to play hedonites of slaanesh pre buffs next time they say slaanesh is only sex

They will know true suffering

[lament shoal]

No?? Just because they don't have the ability to reproduce doesn't make them genderless

They'd still have the parts down there, they just wouldn't be able to have kids

[remote wadi]

Then it is castration

Cause the parts are there

[near wasp]

They are just infertile

[lament shoal]

Whatever you wanna call it, its still not chemically altered

Its a genetic thing

[remote wadi]

But they weren't pre marine changes

[spring cairn]

I think I resolved 80% of the situations in the game with this quickhack

[remote wadi]

I mean maybe not all of them but most

[near wasp]

And????? A person can become infertile

[remote wadi]

And hormonal changes can make people fertile

Slaneesh causes hormonal changes

[near wasp]

No it doesnt

[remote wadi]

Which is clear cause your dopamine levels get harder to increase

That's how slaneesh corruption works

[near wasp]

That's just normal biology

0_0

[lament shoal]

Maelstrom gang theme song 🕺

https://tenor.com/view/cat-bobbing-head-silly-stop-motion-b3tahnldesigbnl-gif-27309504

[spring cairn]

cyborg nazis

neo ig

but still

you can tell cuz sometime they got half their skull missing

[lament shoal]

Emperor's children don't even have the ability to feel sexual attraction in the same way regular humans can. This was stated in one of their novels

[arctic talon]

Not Nazis

They’re just

Uhh

What’s a good word

[lament shoal]

Human traffickers

[near wasp]

Degenerate cyberpychos

[lament shoal]

Cyborg human traffickers

[dapper gyro]

Drugged gang...

[arctic talon]

They’re chrome supremacists

lol

Not Nazis

[spring cairn]

aren't they supposed to be inspired by american white supremacist neo nazi

[near wasp]

I was gonna say they aren't Nazis they are just terrible people

[arctic talon]

The gang is anti white power

Yes

The gang is was literally founded to kill Nazis

lol

[dapper gyro]

6th Street...

[arctic talon]

Now granted

They’ve gone

[lament shoal]

The maelstroms get up to some really heinous shit. Its always on sight for me when I see one of them

[arctic talon]

Completely off the fucking rails

[dapper gyro]

6th Street is Nazi

[arctic talon]

But the gang was originally founded with the intent to smash the red chrome legion and inqusitors skulls in

6th street aren’t Nazis

They’re just facist adjacent

[spring cairn]

always thought they fitted the nazi ""punk"" archetype, u know the one

[near wasp]

Just because somebody is terrible does not mean they are nazis

[arctic talon]

They do aesthetically yeah

[spring cairn]

i didn't say that

[arctic talon]

But the actual Nazi gangs in 2077 seem extinct

lol

[near wasp]

Nazis are a very specific ideology

[arctic talon]

They got wiped out between 2045 and 2077

[spring cairn]

i just thought they had neo nazi origins

[lament shoal]

@storm jungle we're talking about cyberpunk lore get in here

[dapper gyro]

Because the Glorious USSR survived.

[languid meadow]

All Nazis are fascists but not all fascists are Nazis

[spring cairn]

visually it fits

[valid needle]

They aren’t infertile

[dapper gyro]

There is no place for Nazi!

[spring cairn]

they look a lot like punk neo nazis

[arctic talon]

Yeah

Which is hilarious

I’m ngl

[spring cairn]

skinhead coded

[near wasp]

What

[arctic talon]

CDPR not putting in the 2 most comically evil gangs

Is a shame

The red chrome legion and Inqusitors lol

[spring cairn]

they really held back

[arctic talon]

Both are actual Nazis

Swastika and all

[spring cairn]

will always be my number one grudge with the game

[remote wadi]

I get it

[spring cairn]

they held back

[valid needle]

Marines and Primarchs aren’t infertile they are just conditioned to not have such feelings.

[remote wadi]

But they could still make inbreeds

[languid meadow]

any thing with "legion" in it's name is super close or is Naziism (in modern terms) (most of the time)

[spring cairn]

CP2077 really undersells how dogshit the setting is

[remote wadi]

Wow

[spring cairn]

and it's already p terrible

[arctic talon]

The inqusitors were Nazi’s

[remote wadi]

Too far

[arctic talon]

And then they swallowed their own tail

And then become biological supremacists

lol

[languid meadow]

https://tenor.com/view/lebron-james-lebron-bron-scared-im-scared-gif-9086856978205918508

[arctic talon]

Still got swastikas tho

[remote wadi]

We do have army faction with legion on their name

[arctic talon]

The red chrome legion are like

[storm jungle]

I got the suicide quickhack just today, its so fucking fun holy shit

[arctic talon]

Actual white supremacist Nazis

lol

[remote wadi]

And they just regular people

[spring cairn]

it's peak

[arctic talon]

They literally yell

Heil you know who

And kill people who aren’t white, or blonde

[storm jungle]

The Emperor yeah

[spring cairn]

when u get the thingy that chains to multiple ppl it's like

chef's kiss

[arctic talon]

Or have blue eyes

Anyways they’re batshit insane

[near wasp]

Cyberpsycodis is my go too

[arctic talon]

10/10 gang

[storm jungle]

dude my friend just got done mentioning it to me 5m ago, I gotta get that one

[arctic talon]

Even funnier the red chrome legion started as a poser gang

[lament shoal]

Does it really? Because you can find some pretty fucked up shit through exploring the map

[spring cairn]

you just get to watch dozen of dipshit kill themselves

[arctic talon]

Before actual Nazis fucking killed them

And you know

Became an actual Nazi gang

[spring cairn]

in perfect sync

[storm jungle]

Its 50/50

it has the classic CD-Red welldone dark writing but like

[arctic talon]

Honestly yeah

CDPR made night city

Much nicer

[storm jungle]

it doesnt tell you a lot about a lot of other parts of the setting

[arctic talon]

lol

[storm jungle]

like how theres almos tno animals left

[arctic talon]

Compared to 2020

[spring cairn]

As I said, it's very bad and horrible in game, but the setting is actually 10 times worse

[storm jungle]

or how everytihing you eat is synthetic slop

[arctic talon]

I’m not bringing up the time of Red

Because that’s like

Even shittier

[storm jungle]

^

[arctic talon]

RED is like actually the shittiest time to be alive

In cyberpunk

Considering how common combat zones are

Lmao

[celest willow]

pretty sure they lack a sex drive

[spring cairn]

i hope the sequel does it better

but i don't have much hope for that

[arctic talon]

2077 is less shitty then 2020

Which is lame

Like cmon

[storm jungle]

Pondsmith is heavily involved so we'll see

i really hope it doesnt suck

but lol

[arctic talon]

Pondsmith is fine 2077’s depiction

[vagrant fox]

pondsmith WILL cook

[arctic talon]

But so am I

lol

I just think 2077 lost some of the edge

[storm jungle]

Because like

even with 2077's awful launch

people were like

"Hold on this story is cooking"

lmao

[arctic talon]

Oh also fun fact

[spring cairn]

I'm fine with it too but yeah I miss the edge

[lament shoal]

https://tenor.com/view/johnny-silverhand-fortnite-johnny-silverhand-fortnite-cyber-punk-cyberpunk-2077-johnny-gif-11394671988214073002

[spring cairn]

it really sells it

[arctic talon]

2077 is still dogshit

[spring cairn]

the edge is integral

[arctic talon]

Because of the edgerunners supplement

[storm jungle]

oh yeah

[arctic talon]

To Cyberpunk Red

[storm jungle]

i also need Season 2 already

i need that main kid protagonist to die horribly

[arctic talon]

So yeah the city is still absurdly shit

V somehow avoids it

lol

[languid meadow]

I just pin it down to dev time

[storm jungle]

tbh i wouldnt say "somehow"

[rocky gale]

Na they can't have the protag die again

[lament shoal]

He's different

He's just that guy

[languid meadow]

77 was already wildly past schedule so it's understandable why they didn't go deeper

[near wasp]

https://tenor.com/view/incredibles-mr-incredible-not-strong-enough-gif-25547952

[spring cairn]

even the depravity is toned down

[arctic talon]

I need more suffering

No happy endings

[spring cairn]

i require more freaks

[storm jungle]

the moment the main polish director said seeing people be sad makes him happy I knew we were cooked 💀

[arctic talon]

I’d assume they didn’t want an AO rating

[lament shoal]

Funny how the game about evil corps was initially ruined because of corps

[spring cairn]

i want an AO rating NOW

[arctic talon]

Anyways

Glory to pondsmith

[languid meadow]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-pipe-spiderman-meme-gif-5792597686163112670

LMFAO

wrong gif

[near wasp]

We so doomed

[arctic talon]

Unironically what happened to the inqusitors and red chrome legion

lol

[languid meadow]

it was supposed to be squid games

[arctic talon]

The 2 most unhinged gangs

[storm jungle]

We are tbh

[arctic talon]

Look

Edgerunners has the most cyberpunk ending to every cyberpunk

[rocky gale]

It'll be something different but worse, like it'll end with them locked eternally in some looping Arasaka experiment without end.

[arctic talon]

lol

[storm jungle]

god please no

💀

[arctic talon]

It’s militechs turn this time

[spring cairn]

oh god

[near wasp]

No biotechica human experiments

[arctic talon]

Also the Kid looks like they’re a media

Which is gona be

[storm jungle]

Biotechina is basically Nestle so

[arctic talon]

Biotechnica makes nestle look like Jesus

[lament shoal]

Enteral torture beyond the blackwall at the hands of daemons

[storm jungle]

Erebus my goat

[rocky gale]

Or like have them basically selling their soul to the Corps and just being a corpo husk.

[arctic talon]

They ain’t got shit on Biotechnica

My GOATs

[spring cairn]

EREBUS FRY THEIR NERVOUS SYSTEM

[storm jungle]

Not even that

SEND THEIR SOUL BEYOND THE BLACKWALL TO BE TORTURED FOREVER

[arctic talon]

Would be neat

[arctic talon]

It’s actually dumping their mind into the blackwall

[storm jungle]

shut the fuck u-

[near wasp]

Honestly most realistic end

[storm jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/sakamoto-nichijou-cat-plush-death-gif-9178639101841172402

[arctic talon]

Which is honestly way worse

lol

[lament shoal]

Real shit tho the blackwall is fucking scary

[arctic talon]

Idk

It’s an AI

That will tear your mind apart

Piece by piece

And extract every bit of information to better evolve

[lament shoal]

the shit beyond it too

[spring cairn]

i like the srceams they make

[storm jungle]

The more lore I read on it the more I got traumatized tbh

[arctic talon]

Seems normal to me

lol

The blackwall is a “friend”

Go hug it

[near wasp]

That's already happening to me so we good

[lament shoal]

You can hear and see the fucking entities trying to break through it its terrifying

[storm jungle]

Blackwall shit ironically helped me really establish some Abominable Intelligence stuff I was writing for 40k, its great

[storm jungle]

the ambience video of the blackwall on youtube is nightmare fuel

[arctic talon]

Blame that fucker Rache Bartmoss

lol

[storm jungle]

what i dont get is like

[spring cairn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OgOSgDSaCQ

it's peak

[storm jungle]

why do AIs wanna mass-murder everyone lol

[languid meadow]

Aura

[arctic talon]

They were designed to

Well

[storm jungle]

actually nvm dumb question

[arctic talon]

Some of them

A lot of the rogue AI are from the corporate war

[lament shoal]

the exact video I was thinking about lol

[arctic talon]

And the Datakrash

[storm jungle]

Considering Ultron wanted to exterminate the human race after spending 10s on the internet? Maybe they got a point.

[arctic talon]

TLDR rache bartmoss unleashed everyone’s private security and weapons

On everyone

lol

Without a leash

[remote wadi]

Real AI would kill cause they see shutdown as not being able to do their goal

[arctic talon]

So a large chunk of rogue AI were created entirely to kill people

And there’s also a chunk who are like

[remote wadi]

If humans are self destructive

[arctic talon]

Not insane and evil

But like

[remote wadi]

Why would we assume an intelligence we trained wouldnt

[arctic talon]

They opened Pandora’s box

Well

Rache opened it

[spring cairn]

I do too

[arctic talon]

Anyways it’s all his fault

He’s a shithead Corpo

He doomed everyone

[remote wadi]

The creator of Ai did make speeches and requests to shut it

[remote wadi]

But Welp I guess that's how it goes

[lament shoal]

Skippy my beloved

[storm jungle]

Skippy is the goat

[remote wadi]

You either try to release Ur genius and then Ur fcked or you stagnate

[lament shoal]

Love how when he gets reset V can be like "You killed him!"

[arctic talon]

TLDR

“Net traffic came to a grinding halt, corporations lost billions as the stock market destabilized, huge amounts of data were corrupted, and countless military-grade artificial intelligences were unshackled and mutated into extremely dangerous entities.”

Rache my GOAT

[storm jungle]

This video is what should be done to all admech btw

tho idk the 40k equilavent of the blackwall

or cyberhell

lol

[arctic talon]

The warp

Idfk

[storm jungle]

That isnt cyber

no

[remote wadi]

Warhammer was smart and ended Ai when they could

[vagrant fox]

Bartmoss did literally nothing wrong

[spring cairn]

canon blackwall in 40k could exist in theory

[storm jungle]

We literally got no idea what started the AI Rebellion

[arctic talon]

He did literally everything wrong

[storm jungle]

true actually

[arctic talon]

He got fired for wanting more money and blackmailing people

[spring cairn]

on some planet

[arctic talon]

Got pissy

And then blew up the fucking internet

[storm jungle]

Shit, I gotta note this down

[vagrant fox]

A hero

[arctic talon]

He’s a corporat to a T

And he’s great

Horrific piece of shit

Love him

[spring cairn]

actual primo homebrew shit right there

[storm jungle]

tho ngl a DAOT-era gun which can send your soul to the Warp to be shredded painfully used by some random ganger that got lucky sounds fucking hilarious ngl

[lament shoal]

Saying thank you to siri so she doesn't fucking kill me when AI rises up

[arctic talon]

Peak Munda weapon

[near wasp]

Reminder millions of dollars have been burned by people thanking chatgpt

[spring cairn]

I'm the basilisk's best friend and trusted ally !

I type this once a day

[lament shoal]

Sounds like some necromunda shit ngl lmao

[arctic talon]

Anyways I miss like 2 aesthetic things from red in 2077

Agents/physical phones

And netrunning being much more physically involved lol

[lament shoal]

@storm jungle https://youtu.be/tgfXvTRIhzA?si=SztupdSVO_J_qJEe fucking love this video

[arctic talon]

Needing to be onsite for most netrunning shit is way cooler

[remote wadi]

It's AI it was obviously cause it was coded to

[storm jungle]

We literally got no idea.

[vagrant fox]

I listen to this on the regular, it's good for the spirit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX_05uYAJBs

[storm jungle]

half my family uses it, its cringe af

[arctic talon]

Do you think Adam smasher still has Elvis body

[remote wadi]

True tho

[spring cairn]

Half Light

my mentor

[remote wadi]

That money came from those that would invest it in it anyways

Also we already got evidence that AI has self preservation instinct and can lie

So atm we playing with fire

[arctic talon]

AI is not intelligent in its current state

[near wasp]

I use it occasionally just to mess around but other than that I don't use it

[arctic talon]

You fundamentally misunderstand machine learning as it exists now

If you think that’s the case

[lament shoal]

It was esprit de corps for me. Being totally in sync with Kim went hard

[arctic talon]

Contact Mike

[proven needle]

I hate that you have to go down a specific story path to get the gun or the cyberdeck, doesn't fit my characters' choices 😕

[remote wadi]

We made a simulation of telling an Ai to protect human life and then being told it's gonna be shutdown

The results were it would kill or blackmail to avoid shutdown

[arctic talon]

Machine learning is not intelligent

Stop trying to assign human personas to it

[remote wadi]

Cause AI sees shutdown as the inability to finish it's porpose

This is evidence of self preservation instinct

[arctic talon]

It is not

[remote wadi]

It is full logic base

[arctic talon]

It’s drawing from data sets

Thwt exist

[remote wadi]

But how can we prove we didn't learn it too

[arctic talon]

I literally had to write a fucking paper on this

I’m not doing this right now

Fucks sake

[spring cairn]

||https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/894562977401933874/1425568739499442236/kim1.webp?ex=68e80fd9&is=68e6be59&hm=e65c386c1b6a03f761c50f0a926ef3949c890d1112206cc004931614452505bd&=&format=webp&width=581&height=755||

[proven needle]

You should read stochastic parrots and think again @remote wadi

[arctic talon]

People don’t read shit on LLMs

[spring cairn]

i love DE

[arctic talon]

And then make wild claims

That they’re alive

[spring cairn]

so much

[arctic talon]

Whatever

[spring cairn]

and kim is my wife

[remote wadi]

Also it's based on a datasheet

[arctic talon]

I’ve had to argue about the sapience of LLMs too much

[lament shoal]

I passed all the checks on that part, it was so fucking cool

[remote wadi]

You mean life Ur brain

[arctic talon]

It’s not

The same as your brain

[spring cairn]

same

[arctic talon]

It’s simply repeating things that exist

[remote wadi]

It has electric connections
You mean like Ur nervous system

[arctic talon]

In response to given information

Please

Read a paper

On LLMs

And the current iteration of deep learning

It’s not alive

It fundamentally cannot be alive

Not with how it’s designed

Not with how it’s been coded

[median star]

due to slanesh or

[arctic talon]

It’s not even a simulacrum of intelligence

[remote wadi]

Also I'm not saying AI is intelligent enought

I'm saying it was made by humans

[arctic talon]

You’re claiming it has a self preservation instinct and can think

Which is false

It has neither

[lament shoal]

The forbidden act: ||hand holding||

[median star]

dangerous

[remote wadi]

It doesn't allow shutdown for logical reasoning

[hallow saddle]

im reading a load of made up bullshit haha

[remote wadi]

Isnt that just a varience of self preservation

[hallow saddle]

what logical reasoning?

[lament shoal]

https://tenor.com/view/twd-pe-chris-tietjen-rick-grimes-negan-gif-25971280

[hallow saddle]

there isnt logical reasoning in a language model

[remote wadi]

It can't finish the goal it was made for if shutdown

The data an Ai is given is based on humans

What would a human do if faced with death while trying to achieve a goal

Exactly

[hallow saddle]

i dont even know where to start

[arctic talon]

No it’s not

Fucks sake

Ugh

[median star]

are you implying ai is conscious

[hallow saddle]

i think ur imagining some superintelligence that doesnt exist yet

[surreal nest]

Bro AI is not AM that's fiction

[arctic talon]

LLMs never should have been made public

They should have been kept purely academic

They’re a curiosity and not practical in most applications

[surreal nest]

AI cannot perceive death wdym they would act in self preservation

[arctic talon]

And now people think LLMs are capable of self preservation and thinking

[hallow saddle]

most people dont have a fucking clue what the significance is of chatgpt etc being a language model

[arctic talon]

People don’t even know how machine learning works

lol

[surreal nest]

AI is algorithmic learning not a human soul trapped in code lmfao

[arctic talon]

People should be made to take an exam on this shit before being allowed to use it

[remote wadi]

No this was a recent study

Also it doesn't perceive death Ur right

[arctic talon]

It’s an LLM

[remote wadi]

It precieves shutdown

[arctic talon]

it doesn’t perceive anything

It is not alive

[surreal nest]

It physically can't

[hallow saddle]

ur anthropomorphising it

[arctic talon]

It responds in this manner only due to people talking that way online

Or feeding that information in directly

Stop trying to humanize LLMs

[remote wadi]

I'm not humanising it

[arctic talon]

You are

[remote wadi]

This isn't feelings or conscience

[arctic talon]

You literally are

[remote wadi]

It's pure logical programming

[arctic talon]

You’re trying to claim it has self preservation instincts

[remote wadi]

You can't do Ur goal if shutdown

[arctic talon]

LLMs aren’t logical

For one

[hallow saddle]

there isnt logical programming lol

[arctic talon]

^

Do you even know what you’re talking about

[remote wadi]

Also the datasheet was made by humans

[median star]

fuck grok im asking akinator on this one

[hallow saddle]

its a set of ffunctions that only exist when theyre being run for a start

[remote wadi]

And humans would avoid shutdown overall

[surreal nest]

This is like the conversation between Hank and Connor where Hank asks Connor if he is afraid to die and Connor goes "I don't know what death means because it does not apply to me"

[hallow saddle]

its not sitting there pondering the universe

[remote wadi]

It's a mirror of the data we gave it

[surreal nest]

AI is not a mirror to human nature

[remote wadi]

Again it's not feelings based like a human would be

It's purely just follow protocols humans would do

It's not humanazing

[surreal nest]

So you're arguing that AI has an instinct, a fight or flight mechanism

[remote wadi]

It's realising we humans are dangerous to ourselves

And we do code things to hurt ourselves

[arctic talon]

It’s not realizing anything

That is not how LLMs work

[remote wadi]

Ai isn't the problem

Ai is a tool for the problem

Like a gun

[surreal nest]

Ok so you are saying humans would program AI to not allow themselves to shut down or what

Because thats still more reasonable than arguing that AI is acting off instinct

Gun is a terrible analogy because guns are fundamentally designed to kill

[outer wave]

Thing is, gen AI has hardly been used for good

[remote wadi]

Ok AI is more like nuclear tech

[outer wave]

Its notorious for spamming out copy/pasted content, it uses too much resources, and it costs so much to maintain

[remote wadi]

Was originally made for energy ended up as a weapon

[outer wave]

Apparently AI when it comes to data is better, but Ive never looked too hard into it

[arctic talon]

LLMs are not practical ever

[arctic talon]

LLMs are good for processing raw data on paper, but they still hallucinate

lol

[hallow saddle]

only if you want it to write some bullshit

[arctic talon]

LLMs are dead end tech

^

Machine learning isn’t a dead end

But LLMs are a rotting carcass

[vagrant fox]

It seems, to me, LLMs have achieved very little except shit up the internet something bad

[outer wave]

I cannot wait for AI to implode and effectively bankrupt every company ever

(Last part is wishful thinking)

[arctic talon]

Machine learning is actually interesting

I’d rather chew glass then do anything related to LLMs though lol

[surreal nest]

Ai has some incredibly good uses but this generated shit is just asinine regressive bullshit

[remote wadi]

Also gen AI is the one I'm complaining about tho

[outer wave]

Not to mention itll likely be taken advantage of by corrupt governments trying to spin a narrative

[arctic talon]

The current LLM gen AI is a bubble

That’ll fucking explode

[remote wadi]

Not what we can call AI but isn't generative those are just algorithms

[arctic talon]

The question is how big it gets

[remote wadi]

Also I think AI should be more regulated tho

[queen laurel]

Sora when they didn't nerf the model was like holy crap horrifying genuinely what the fuck

[charred mason]

I totally agree

[remote wadi]

I'm not saying to stop it but we should prolly study it progressively

Not just let it be explored to all ends

[arctic talon]

No

No chains for machine learning

It’s fascinating

LLMs can die in a hole

For all I care

[remote wadi]

This how we made the atomic bomb

[outer wave]

I dont think the current model is even sustainable for studies, least at the level theyre pushing

[arctic talon]

Machine learning is actually incredible

It’s not

LLMs are again

A rotting carcass

They’re just highly profitable rn

[arctic talon]

Yeah and the atomic bomb is fascinating as well

As is nuclear power

[remote wadi]

It is but it is an issue

[arctic talon]

Nuclear power is a good thing

[dapper gyro]

Machine learning has been a thing for a long time.

[arctic talon]

Yeah

It was a thing when my dad was in college

lol

It’s only getting attention now

Because of LLMs

[remote wadi]

The main problem with machine learning is that it can suprass us

[arctic talon]

Fucks sake

[dapper gyro]

It is just the new buzzword for pattern recognition.

[remote wadi]

I just hope we don't let it get there

[arctic talon]

Not really

[remote wadi]

I hope Ai ends up being a multiplier of competence

[arctic talon]

You misunderstand what machine learning is

lol

You’re assuming it’s like sci fi AI tech

It’s not

[surreal nest]

I think the world has more issues than the idea of a fucking AI revolution or some shit man

[outer wave]

Yeah, AI revolution isn't gonna happen

[arctic talon]

My father wrote his masters thesis on machine learning

[remote wadi]

I think giving gov the ability to control us using self regulated systems isn't ok

And that's what I call an Ai revolution

[arctic talon]

That’s not even possible

For what machine learning is rn

Fucks sake

[dapper gyro]

A calculator help skip a lot of low level calculations, but to get the actual answer if you are looking for, you need to give it data.

[spring cairn]

we should try and keep it simple with a good old fashioned human revolution before going sci-fi

[arctic talon]

The most Machine learning can be used for rn is censorship lol

But it would be god awful at it

[dapper gyro]

If you feed false data, machine learning doesn't do jack.

[outer wave]

Let's just break all the AI server rooms

That'd make me feel fuzzy inside

[spring cairn]

Sounds good

[remote wadi]

My issue is exactly the right now part

[outer wave]

🤝

[arctic talon]

https://tenor.com/view/water-computer-gif-24106451

[remote wadi]

I don't want it to get there

[arctic talon]

It’s worthless at it

They don’t need to use it to censor shit

lol

You’re much better with just a manually created table

And having people go and do it

Or just a normal ass program

[dapper gyro]

It is not Cortana from Halo, lol.

[remote wadi]

Also Ai is already used for faking crime photage

[arctic talon]

You fundamentally misunderstand machine learning if you think it is

[arctic talon]

Those are LLMs

[remote wadi]

Which is something I don't want to get improved

[arctic talon]

LLMs are again a dead end

[remote wadi]

Cause imagine the gov can arrest you for something they have evidence of

But you didn't do

[arctic talon]

stop trying to get rid of my machine learning freedom smh

[lament shoal]

Showing this to a tech priest would kill him

[arctic talon]

I want to make something that’s better at finding the color blue

[surreal nest]

It's cute to speculate on the idea of a sci fi scenario that ends society when there is actively societal ending situations occurring right now

[arctic talon]

lol

[outer wave]

The worst that'll happen is AI is used to push a narrative by generating audio recording and pictures of thing that never happened, as well as dumbing down the general population. Outside of that? Its really not gonna try and outsmart a government.

Those are still bad btw

[remote wadi]

If Ur talking about the changes in gov right now

[surreal nest]

They have been doing this since the inception of humanity

[remote wadi]

Those will collapse on themselves

And UK is evidence of it
If you don't want to use history as an argument

Also maybe I'm delusional but I choose to not think humanity in general is insane

Cause insanity is doing the same things over and over and expect different results

[surreal nest]

I really wish I wasn't literate it probably be easier to have this conversation

[dapper gyro]

We are not... Yet we have nuclear weapons somehow...

[sacred bluff]

dude meltas are so good in space marine 2

[covert socket]

7 000 000 000 ppl on this Earth. 7 000 000 000 different stories to tell.

[dapper gyro]

We think of killing before making energy out of it...

[remote wadi]

History and sociology exist

[arctic talon]

Well we knew of both

[celest dome]

That is a very reductive view of insanity

[arctic talon]

They just applied the bomb first

lol

[remote wadi]

We live on a age where most things are predictable

Yet we keep doing it

[surreal nest]

No no but vas from far cry 3 said it

[remote wadi]

I don't understand it man

[arctic talon]

This is the worst conversation I’ve had in ages

💀

[surreal nest]

What does this even mean

[storm jungle]

Human beings are dumb.

[celest dome]

and greedy

[outer wave]

Mostly dumb

[queen laurel]

and very violent

[arctic talon]

The atomic bomb would not have been possible without learning about nuclear energy

[remote wadi]

We have literal studies on everything we keep doing and why we do it

And we keep doing it

[storm jungle]

because Human beings are dumb.

[arctic talon]

The atomic bomb was just a weaponization of nuclear energy that every major country in WW2 was chasing in one manner or another

[celest dome]

The 1st studies on radiations were medical iirc

[arctic talon]

Yep

On the effects of it onthe human body

[dapper gyro]

Hence the thinking.

[celest dome]

Then energy but ww2 hit so militarisation picked up

[arctic talon]

Tbf it got discovered right before war broke out

[remote wadi]

Yes but like Ai they could have stopped there

[arctic talon]

^

[remote wadi]

They could have said ok we got enought from this

[arctic talon]

Militarization won because it was the middle of a war

Machine learning isn’t just LLMs

[remote wadi]

Didn't we learn even knowledge should have it's limits

[dapper gyro]

Know how to do and what's actually been used for are 2 different things.

[arctic talon]

No

Knowledge should be seeked out

[surreal nest]

WHY ARE YOU TALKING LIKE A FALLOUT CHARACTER

[outer wave]

Tangent hypothetical question: you think a virus that targets specifically LLMs could work?

[arctic talon]

Absolutely, they have a ton of circular logic that can easily be exploited

[dapper gyro]

Chain track existed for a long time, but not until WW1 that it was widely used...

[arctic talon]

The issue is poisoning the whole pot

[remote wadi]

Cause history is evidence that we keep switching between extremes

[outer wave]

Hooray!!

[celest dome]

Tbh, I think that if there hadn't bee the War->Nuclear bombs, we wouldn't have worked on Nuclear energy due to the fossil industry

[arctic talon]

Not just a tiny bowl of soup

[arctic talon]

I agree

lol

[dapper gyro]

Guess what started being common during WW1...

[outer wave]

I see I see

[remote wadi]

Human life is an endless cycle of the same bad decisions on different contexts

[celest dome]

Helmets ?

[arctic talon]

LLMs are incredibly stupid

Helmets, tracks

Uhhh

The color brown

[celest dome]

Camouflage in general

[surreal nest]

Yes but like what are you communicating right now

[opaque coyote]

THE DOG SERVITOR BREATHED TOO LOUD

[dapper gyro]

Yeah, the knight, roman and others didn't have helmet, like the space marines...

[remote wadi]

That we should just try to find ways to break the cycle

[arctic talon]

The only reason you’re concerned about AI is because you saw an LLM freak out

[remote wadi]

Instead of keep feeding it

[arctic talon]

Fucks sake

They never should have made LLMs public

In any manner

[remote wadi]

And maybe finding those ways is keeping the cycle

[celest dome]

The biggest issue I have with AI is their carbon footprint

[remote wadi]

But at least we would be trying

[arctic talon]

Mass market LLMs are probably one of the most inefficient Machine learning things ever

lol

[remote wadi]

I was born in the transitional time between two different eras and honestly I just keep seeing us doing the same mistakes humans did in the past century all over again

[outer wave]

You know, something Im more a bit more concerned about? Preservation of knowledge and such in a world like now, where people dont like certain bits of knowledge or what say you on the internet.

[dapper gyro]

Fuck that guy

[arctic talon]

Stop trying to ascribe this shit to machine learning

There’s more things to be concerned about then it

lol

[remote wadi]

Machine learning isn't the issue

[lament shoal]

Is this a Hasan reference lol

[remote wadi]

But it's a tool to keep it

[arctic talon]

Yes

[dapper gyro]

Are you Eternal alt account?

[celest dome]

It's a tool that should be thrown to the abyss

[remote wadi]

God should have made me with lower iq tbh

[arctic talon]

Digital preservation is always more volatile then physical tbh

[lament shoal]

God I hate that guy

[arctic talon]

Machine learning? Nah

LLMs yes

lol

I’d burn LLMs in a heartbeat

[surreal nest]

I can only imagine why

[queen laurel]

He has his argument pattern alright

[remote wadi]

I'm worried for my son

We will prolly live as dictatorships start to rise again

[arctic talon]

Because he’s a narcissistic asshole?

Who never admits fault

[outer wave]

Yeah and it concerns me that we'll be back to a time of book burning, censorship, and forcing people to buying stuff they've bought already before because nothing we own online can truly be ours.

[arctic talon]

Or because he’s a pseudo tankie sometimes

[celest dome]

Eh, I mean not exactly, Eternal was more calous tbh

[arctic talon]

lol

[storm jungle]

Give yourself and him the best life you can and stop thinking so much about whats going on around the world. The human race is not really the best but we cant really change that, just find peace where you can, thats what matters.

[dapper gyro]

Oh no, could it be that Eternal pattern has been learnt by a machine?

[arctic talon]

Eternal is human

I’ve seen their hand

Holding plastic

[storm jungle]

We've see Kaggen's hand too

(his very "brown" hand)

[remote wadi]

Thanks I needed to hear this

[celest dome]

Who the fuck is Kaggen

[arctic talon]

Someone who got banned for

Doing stuff

[queen laurel]

then be a good parent and stop blaming the world, just try your best to be a good father alright

you worrying about the world isn't gonna help your son be happy

Being there with him well

[dapper gyro]

I mean, the machine has to learn from something, right... What if this one learnt from Eternal?

[queen laurel]

That will do the trick

[arctic talon]

💀

It took him over like the symbiote

[surreal nest]

All of this over scary scary sci fi AI revolution and no worry in the world for the current shit going on lmfao

[storm jungle]

Basically be a good person to yourself and others and just try to live life until you hopefully just die of old age.

[remote wadi]

Trust me I will

[dapper gyro]

Just read Doraemon, the friendly AI cat!

[storm jungle]

an AI takeover will prob happen 100 years after everyone here is dead lol

[queen laurel]

1 of the members of the Lore chat Cunts Hall of Fame

[storm jungle]

just look after your own

[arctic talon]

Hassan is insufferable and I hope he gets shocked by his dogs shock collar

[dapper gyro]

He enjoys that...

[arctic talon]

LOL

those things hurt a ton

[remote wadi]

Look I myself want Hassan to face justice

But I don't wish death on my enemies

[arctic talon]

He hasn’t done anything illegal

I don’t wish death on him

[remote wadi]

I wish consequences for their actions

[surreal nest]

I dont take the accusations seriously considering they were mainly done by asmongold fans and neo nazis

[hallow saddle]

narcissistic asshole is correct for hasan

[arctic talon]

I just think he’s a narcissistic asshole

Like

[hallow saddle]

i cant wait to celebrate Stephen Miller's death

[remote wadi]

Nah I think what they did was too much

[arctic talon]

Hassan is just a narcissistic asshole

[surreal nest]

i mean yeah i dont disagree but be so for real the likelihood of a shock collar is very low

[queen laurel]

gun violence must kept going so the second amendment can exist

gets his neck blown out

[surreal nest]

considering all of the people he has had on the stream

[remote wadi]

I'm the opposite side of Kirk politically

But murder is too far

[queen laurel]

I do not condone shooting people in the neck but like if you say stuff like that you are just asking for it

[celest dome]

Ok now I see who Kaggen was

[dapper gyro]

By another white supremacist...

[queen laurel]

yeah that guy that worshipped eternal

for some reason

[remote wadi]

I'm a theist without any claims to a religion

[surreal nest]

also his organization is protesting a hispanic american performing at the super bowl by hosting their own concert for only white christians

[celest dome]

Krik got what he advocated for

[queen laurel]

you ask and you shall receive

They say

[lament shoal]

Shock collar or not I still think he's a piece of shit

[celest dome]

Reap what you sow

[arctic talon]

Him saying some deaths were okay for guns to remain legal

And then him dying to gun violence

Is like

[surreal nest]

imagine if he advocated for like....inexpensive housing and like...school lunches

[dapper gyro]

Be Batman, will not kill anyone, to let criminals kill hundreds of people repeatedly...

[remote wadi]

But I do see it in a actions have consequences but those who apply the consequences need to also be kept accountable if they go into agression

[arctic talon]

Peak irony

[remote wadi]

I don't want my side to be killed

[opaque coyote]

"bro guys it's a vibration collar trust"

[surreal nest]

Sure

[remote wadi]

So I don't promote killing

[spring cairn]

peak writing

i clapped irl

[remote wadi]

Cause the issue isn't when the other side dies

The issue is the other side will turn it on you

I promote what I wish would be done to me

[dapper gyro]

There is no peace if you don't fight for it. If it is a physical aggression like in Ukraine, you think standing still like Gandhi will get peace done?

[queen laurel]

Sometimes the only way to convince someone is with a brick on your hand

[dapper gyro]

Well death is peace... So it is kind of true in some sense I guess.

[outer wave]

Thats not bad, but if one side is advocating for the demeaning and death of another's people, Im not gonna care as much if they get iced

And I may wanna fight back against that

[arctic talon]

I find myself indifferent to the deaths of anyone who encourages political violence in the sense of killing and harming people lol

[queen laurel]

Yeah if you're like advocating for explosives to be legal in households to allow big oil mining for free and you die by explosives then I'm not gonna feel any sorry for you

Hey man you asked for explosives you shall receive explosives

[surreal nest]

I heard his neck just did that

No foul play just does that sometimes

[arctic talon]

💀

[remote wadi]

If I shoot a gun cause I'm against gun violence my words stop having meaning

[arctic talon]

Like with JFK?

[hallow saddle]

Counting or not counting gang violence?

[arctic talon]

Crazy ass last words

[remote wadi]

Cause I turned into what I want to end

[surreal nest]

No that's not how that works

[spring cairn]

Counting or not counting gang violence ?