40k-lore-chat

[plush mason]

even there own battle brothers mistrust them to an extent

[sour hornet]

It's the level of so-called 'trust' you would give a tamed Bengal Tiger.

[dusk patrol]

Especially when the consequences can be so high

[sour hornet]

Yeah, it's tame. For now.

[dusk patrol]

It’s not their fault necessarily but it’s how it works

[sour hornet]

And if it ever loses control, it can kill you in a snap.

[dusk patrol]

It can kill everyone and doom worlds worst case

[plush mason]

when someone is able to use the kind of powers a psyker has plus all the risks that comes with those powers its only natural that people will be untrusting and fearful/hateful of them

[small grail]

whats this?

[rocky gale]

Honourbound, a 40k novel

[sour hornet]

You trust it, temporarily, to do it's job. But always with immense scrutiny, and a willingness to dispose of it the second it becomes unuseful.

[small grail]

ah

[sour hornet]

Debriefing of Lydia Zane, Primaris Psyker, 7th Antari Rifles.

As you can see, they treat her like a caged animal.

[small grail]

when psykers lose control do they like instatly transform?

[sour hornet]

They can.

[rocky gale]

and I mean aside from this scene Raine is still typically cordial and somewhat friendly with Zane

[gaunt sable]

The Imperium and the Inquisition as institutions are granting the power to erase world's and judge people from the the lowest of menials to high lords for corruption. Who requisition anything they can need or want to accomplish their objectives and have astonishingly little oversight to Psykers.

[dusk patrol]

There’s no rule really

[small grail]

i mean like does it happen immediately

[sour hornet]

Yeah, literally like 0.005% of psykers at most.

So much trust!

[dusk patrol]

Also they go through horrific training to be trusted with that

[sour hornet]

The majority are killed, and the rest are treated like walking WMDs, because they are.

The only ones that aren't literally are bound to Big E himself.

[dusk patrol]

And inquisitors have eachother for oversight

[gaunt sable]

No. We see a Psyker in Cadian Blood who got possessed by a daemon prince (Admittedly after an immense amount of pain and effort.) and the other members of the Squad didn't realize the Psyker was gone until the Daemon Prince announced the fact.

[celest dome]

Not all loss of control end up with rampant mutations. Some just burn themselves out

[sour hornet]

Inquisitors hunt each other all the time.

[rocky gale]

Some just pop

[sour hornet]

Some just explode.

[green loom]

I'd let a daemon possess me tbh

[gaunt sable]

That's not oversight, that's a snake pit.

[plush mason]

yup

[rocky gale]

Depends if it's Targaryen or Blackfyre tbh

[gaunt sable]

My point as to. 'Lack of Oversight' was no actual formal means of to hold an Inquistor to account or see what their doing or up to.

[plush mason]

the inquisition is just as if not even more dysfunctional as the adeptus administorium

[dusk patrol]

Whatever you wanna call it, they have peers who are looking over their shoulder and waiting for them to fuck up

And yes there is

The inquisition isn’t one organization

[spare osprey]

Just ask slaanesh for perfection in the arts, boom ya good

[dusk patrol]

They’re very eager to go after eachother if they’re fucking up

[green loom]

There's semi formal ones in the form of conclaves and stuff ig

[sour hornet]

^

[small grail]

average deviants

[gaunt sable]

Your basically giving an immense amount of power to do almost anything to people whose only means of oversight is.
"Maybe one of his coworkers will keep tabs on him and get others to gun for him if things get fucky."

[dusk patrol]

It’s not a maybe

[gaunt sable]

Lookit all the effort it took for the Inquisition to go after Quixos

[sour hornet]

Your direct Inquisitor Lords will typically do so. It's kinda their job.

[dusk patrol]

Yes and they did

[plush mason]

is anything in the imperium of man a single organization? seems they love to compartmentalize everything as much as they can

[green loom]

Let me draw pretty men, and my life is yours!

[dusk patrol]

Not in a broad sense

If you hone it down yeah I guess

Regardless, no one said “no psykers are given a lot of power or trust” the god emperor exists for goodness sakes

[plush mason]

like the adeptus administorium has many factions of scribes that focus solely on a single thing

[dusk patrol]

But the vast majority are treated as dangerous always, and the rare exception are people who have gone through extreme training and are rare and exceptional individuals

[rocky gale]

A lot of the Imperiums rules and norms are incredibly bendy and vary in case by case basis depending on the story

[gaunt sable]

Anyway.
My ultimate point is that we don't have that many good sources for Psykers.
And the sources we do have are....Often...contradictory.

[dusk patrol]

Primaris are insanely valuable, and also a dangerous potential conduit, these aren’t mutually exclusive

[dusk patrol]

They’re not contradictory, there isn’t one set of rules for this stuff

[crisp heath]

Is primaris more successful then the original marines as far as survival rate?

[gaunt sable]

That's sort of my point.

[dusk patrol]

I don’t think we have a number or answer

[crisp heath]

Surviving the surgery that is

[dusk patrol]

Doesn’t seem to be different

[storm jungle]

• If they have plot armor they will survive
• If they dont its 50/50, they will either die for story drama or just go through the surgery with no issues.

[dusk patrol]

But idk, it might be mentioned somewhere

[dusk patrol]

He’s not talking about the Calgarian rites

[storm jungle]

Same thing tbh.

[dusk patrol]

It’s not

[storm jungle]

Yes it is

[dusk patrol]

The calgarian rites are what firtborn undergo to become primaris, which was always supposed to get safer anyways the moment it was mentioned

[storm jungle]

also damn i missed the psyker arguments i was playing L4D2 post work

[rocky gale]

As far as I know, no existing characters have died crossing the Rubicon, so it's just a plot thing basically

[dusk patrol]

He’s talking about primaris marines vs firstborn

[gaunt sable]

It's still ongoing. :v

[rocky gale]

TBF if they did kill off any of the named characters during the Rubicon it would just give people more reason to hate Primaris

[plush mason]

this is the warhammer fandom, the arguments never stop

[storm jungle]

Yeah people got enough ammunition as it is.

[storm jungle]

yallah

[rocky gale]

Like if they just went "Oh yea Logan Grimnar died crossing the Rubicon" there would be an implosion of devastating proportion on the Space Wolf Reddit

[plush mason]

please let that happen

i would be laughing for days

[gaunt sable]

My point is that we have so few sources regarding Psykers that making generalized statements in regards to how their treated/slotted into the Imperium as a whole are almost totally unique examples.
Glavia's experiences in Witchbringer are totally at odds with Lydia Zane are at odds with Vykola are at odds with Seth.

[sour hornet]

Doesn't that make it easier to write though?

[storm jungle]

I mean yes?

[gaunt sable]

Yes and No.

[sour hornet]

I've never had trouble writing for my psykers. There is more than enough fluff to go off of, as well as POV characters.

[gaunt sable]

I find having a plethora of written examples provides useful fodder for stories and characters.

[sour hornet]

The diversity of viewpoints is likely intentional and helps you realize "the Imperium has 1,000,000 worlds and like a quadrillion people."

[gaunt sable]

And a dearth of resources can make things frustrating.

[plush mason]

when it comes to the imperium in general i assume the worst possible outcome as thats what the imperium as a whole is

[dusk patrol]

The point of the setting is you can generally do what you want within certain constraints

It’s largely open ended

So just write what you want

[spring cairn]

imperium big place, varied experiences

make shit up

[gaunt sable]

That's not even the core issue with my complaint.

[sour hornet]

A psyker in the retinue of a Rogue Trader will be treated with much greater hospitality and warmth than a Guard psyker. Or not. Depends on the RT, the crew, and the proficiency of the psyker.

[dusk patrol]

There’s some things you could adhere to or you can just you know

Use your imagination

[sour hornet]

^^^

[dusk patrol]

^

[plush mason]

thats the point, on the macro scale everything is horrible, on the micro scale there is room for hope to shine through

[spring cairn]

yeah

[plush mason]

all the little story still get lost in the bleakness of the big picture but they happen

[crisp heath]

If no hope, why fight?

[storm jungle]

I mean there is no hope

[spring cairn]

killing is funny

[storm jungle]

its the illusion that helps though lol

[crisp heath]

Guilliman showed up

[storm jungle]

also Lambda has no need to say it but this is why Empire of Man is superior

[dusk patrol]

There is hope, it’s just it won’t ever matter, or play out

[storm jungle]

just like real life

[crisp heath]

The lion is feeding demons the emperors shield

[storm jungle]

some great commentary

I MEAN uh

[crisp heath]

There is hope

[storm jungle]

[plush mason]

and wanted to unshow up almost instantly

[dusk patrol]

And you call me a doomer smh

[storm jungle]

🇹🇷

[gaunt sable]

The problem I'm talking about is that there's not that much lore talking about Psyker experiences.
Even though the Imperium itself is a big place the experiences each Sanctioned Psyker undergoes is all the same.
You get picked up and hauled off on the Blackships to 'Terra' and get slotted in to a Scholastia Psykana Temple for more training before getting thrown at whatever Imperial Organization can best utilize your skills/services.

[crisp heath]

John tight ass has shown up

Calgars number 2 demon killer

[gaunt sable]

But a lot of these experiences go completely unremarked or elaborated on.

[dusk patrol]

This isn’t true at all

There’s countless examples of psyker lives in books

[crisp heath]

After malum

[spring cairn]

i'm going to write a book about those psykers who are chained to the engines on voidcrafts, it'll be in the first person perspective only

[sour hornet]

Dark Heresy has a whole list of side-effects specifically because of your sanctioning.

[dusk patrol]

Eisenhorn has a ton throughout, as mentioned Honorbound and Witchbringer for Guard, we see stuff like the Astropath High Lord and his experience.

[gaunt sable]

And we have startingly few Psyker PoV characters. (That aren't stuff like Inquistors or Librarians.) So we get even less perspective of what they think or feel about situations or how they see the world around them.

[storm jungle]

Its more that Wire probably means its not really at the forefront which is true. I dont really wanna go read through 50 books to nail down psyker character chapters

[gaunt sable]

Yes and DH2 shit canned them. :v

[storm jungle]

LMAO

i still remember 💀

[gaunt sable]

I have the Hard Copies.

[storm jungle]

that brings me back...

👩‍🦼

[sour hornet]

Yeah, but it literally gives you a "hey, you basically get horrifically tortured over and over until you can cast smite without frying yourself"

[dusk patrol]

I mean there’s also just imagination

[spring cairn]

worth it

[plush mason]

given how many people played psyker in the rogue trader CRPG i wonder if a story about a psyker rogue trader could happen

[dusk patrol]

Like idk if you need a literal blueprint to get this stuff as a writer, most of these people writing this stuff I doubt read through everything first

[sour hornet]

^

[dusk patrol]

There’s a vibe for 40k and you might not get it immediately but that’s writing

[plush mason]

40k doesnt have much of a lore bible afaik

[sour hornet]

Most writers just read through some related material and then freeball it.

[spring cairn]

do copious amount of drugs and grab a pencil or your keyboard whatever

don't need the full picture

[dusk patrol]

It’s better to just try stuff out and fail than wait for some direct blueprint

Which I would argue is already there anyways

[gaunt sable]

Like I said. Discount Inquistor stuff (As much as I love Eisenhorn and Ravenor.) stuff as their not actually all that representative.
The only significant PoV characters who were Psykers I've ever read was Seth from Cadian Blood and Glavia from Witchbringer.

[crisp heath]

Of course we have hope! We have Caiaphas Cain hero of the imperium to save us all!…wait what do you mean he’s dead?!

[dusk patrol]

There’s two books with heavy psyker focus in Honorbound and the Witchbringer book

[dusk patrol]

There’s others but like

Use those

[gaunt sable]

....Well....Also Agun Soric.

[sour hornet]

And we just read how psykers are treated in Honourbound.

Not very well.

[storm jungle]

Yeah but official centerfront content is also neat

[dusk patrol]

Idk what the issue is, you’re not copying someone else’s work anyways

[plush mason]

and that was a powerful and useful one

[dusk patrol]

I agreed but you shouldn’t need that to write fanfic

[sour hornet]

^

[plush mason]

i would hate to know how the less useful psykers get treated

[dusk patrol]

And also, we literally have forefront pov examples

[gaunt sable]

Bingo.

[spring cairn]

batteries

Big E's midnight snack

[dusk patrol]

Like yeah there’s not a million novels for them, you don’t need a million novels to get them

[plush mason]

hell training dummies for the SoS might also be a fate they face

[dusk patrol]

Just read the rpg descriptions for goodness sake

Or the psyker dialogue from Darktide

[gaunt sable]

Glavia's time at the Scholastia was part of the most interesting section of Witchbringer and there was a LOT of juicy tidbits like Psyker factions squabbling and stuff.

[dusk patrol]

I feel like the psyker vibe really isn’t that hard

[gaunt sable]

My only complaint about that section was WHY THE FUCK was an Ecclisarchy official running the Campus?

[dusk patrol]

I agreed it’d be nice tog get more and I hope we do but that wasn’t the discussion really

[plush mason]

infighting really is one of the few constants in the imperium isnt it

[gaunt sable]

Ugh. Don't remind me. Dx
That was so disappointing when the game lacks all reactivity to the fact your a Psyker after the prologue.

[spring cairn]

in warhammer in general

they even got the tau to infight

the tau

[dusk patrol]

Exclisarchy people tend to run most schools it seems

[opaque coyote]

Farsight Enclave moment

[dusk patrol]

Drill Abbots for the Schola Progenium for example

[plush mason]

lmao

[storm jungle]

The entire point of novels is to give inspiration, some people aren't really as creative either, fiction is also not easy to write especially as a non-writer bum like most of us here.

[spring cairn]

gotta justify having mirror matches in tabletop somehow

[sour hornet]

Why wouldn't there be?

[gaunt sable]

I do
But it'd be nice having more Psyker centered novels instead of the 300th Space Marine novel.

[opaque coyote]

"Why are SMs fighting guardsmen?"

"Cause they're infighting"

"Ohhh"

[sour hornet]

If I was a hyperreligious zealot, I would 100% want a Ecclesiarchy rep on the campus to keep an eye on the freaks.

[storm jungle]

It would make more sense for telepathica trained personnel to be there, it is pretty stupid.

[dusk patrol]

The point of them is to tell stories and sell models, if they inspire that’s nice but I feel like if you’re actually interested in writing and you constraint yourself by only waiting for some inspiration or can’t image stuff cause novels don’t go into it you’re stunting your own growth

[crystal forum]

@dusk patrol what do you know about the storm walkers

[dusk patrol]

They were the Iron Hands legion before they took the name Iron Hands

[sour hornet]

You say that like being stupid makes it less reasonable for the Imperium.

[storm jungle]

Unwary psykers are not useful psykers.

why do you think the telepathica chick in Tithes lies to the psykers constantly lol

[crystal forum]

is that all we know about them?

[gaunt sable]

Yeah but the Scholastia Psykana is part of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica.
Why they'd surrender a part of their autonomy to the Ecclisarchy was just bizarre.
Not sure what he's meant to teach anyway.
I got the feeling they were trying to make it almost feel like a Catholic school.

[gaunt sable]

Those aren't technically Priests. :v

[sour hornet]

You'd think they have a choice?

[crystal forum]

i've noticed some pre primarch legions have a lot more lore about them than others. the pre mortarion death guard have a whole wiki page

[storm jungle]

Its to tell stories, sell models and to inspire homebrew from that, they do all these things and authors have said several times its also one of their aims while also just filling a quota. It also has nothing to do be "constraining" it literally is just having some more examples that you can easily access instead of delving into some book to find specific psyker chapters just to get an idea.

Again this rule of "just think without any base" doesnt work with most people.

[dusk patrol]

They are

[gaunt sable]

I mean they are.

But their really just Veteran soldiers that got ordained.

And once again. That's to play up the catholic school angle.

[dusk patrol]

Most people can’t write, I don’t think encouraging stunting your writing growth with what’s probably a bad habit is a good idea just because it’s hard

You have to work at it

[sour hornet]

It's a choice that satisfies the Ecclesiarchy, so it fits. Doesn't really matter past that. Bureaucracy trumps all.

[dusk patrol]

Write a lot, most will suck

[dusk patrol]

No one sec

[storm jungle]

And thats just your perspective, ive seen and met several people that just think the exact opposite.

so yeah you know

[storm jungle]

It really doesnt, again all institutions will wary with the way the ydo things.

[dusk patrol]

Well I’ll say waiting around for GW to release more psyker books is definitely a losing strategy if you wanna write about them

[storm jungle]

psykers that just explode from overboard abuse instead of selective abuse are not useful to anyone.

[sour hornet]

Skill issue honestly.

[dusk patrol]

Work with what you have

[sour hornet]

Clearly the method works. All the psykers are not exploding.

[gaunt sable]

The Scholastia Psykana is part of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica and why they'd sacrifice the running of a Campus to a Ministorium bigwig (The guy was pretty high up the ladder.) is a bizarre abrogation of the AAT's sovereignity.

[spring cairn]

psyker human bomb will be real in 8 days

[storm jungle]

[gaunt sable]

"We're taking you to safety!"
Later
"Ummmm....I think we were lied too...."
XD

[sour hornet]

You honestly expect the Ecclesiarchy to not butt into the autonomy of a witch-run organization?

[storm jungle]

Yes?

The officials that run the Psykana are also sometimes psykers lmao

[sour hornet]

A little delulu honestly.

[storm jungle]

They know more about the nature of the witch than literal catholic-nazis.

we see as much in the Hollow Mountain

[dusk patrol]

So their name comes from their strategy of “The Storm and the Hammer” which was pioneered by Amadeus DuCaine during an Ork conflict on a planet called Rust iirc, massive engine warfare.

Basically he’d send out juicer looking “exposed” infantry units or lighter vehicles and draw the enemy into attacking them. Those units would have to “walk through the storm”, which earned them their nickname.

The hammer came when they enemy drew itself out and they 10th would attack with overwhelming force, crushing them.

Shadrak Meduson, Amadeus DuCaine, and Autek Mor were all part of the legion during this time.

[gaunt sable]

The AAT has a permanent seat sitting at the big boy table and the AAT High Lord was one of the few to not try and dick over Girlyman and in fact threw in with him.

[sour hornet]

What does the actual truth have to with political scheming? This is a pretty reoccurring issue in the Imperium.

[storm jungle]

Im not talking about the truth? Would you with carpenters in charge of plumbing? Its that kind of deal.

[dusk patrol]

@crystal forum

Other than that I don’t think there’s a ton of notable lore, Ferrus was found super early which is part of that and the legion was largely just successful prior to him and after, and they didn’t change a ton in doctrine just refined.

[storm jungle]

Actual experts handling the subject they were trained for and are in the knowledge of makes more sense lol

[crystal forum]

do we know what happened to them after istvan?

[sour hornet]

I would love to see the looks on their faces when big blue straight up started killing the ones who didn't.

[gaunt sable]

Being condescending is sort of aggravating. :v
I have a shit ton of Psyker resources saved and copied and I write a lot about Psykers.
I can STILL want more stories centered on them for even more ideas.

[dusk patrol]

DuCaine died on Istvaan, Shadrak I think you know, Autek Mor went on to found the Red Talons post heresy and did a lot of behind the lines cutting off of traitor supplies and destroying traitor worlds

[dusk patrol]

Ok that wasn’t what the conversation was, you were saying you couldn’t write stuff because there wasn’t enough.

[sour hornet]

No. Because witches and their ilk are a religious issue, and despite their lack of subject matter expertise, it's nature as a religious matter allows the Ecclesiarchy to butt in.

[dusk patrol]

I would also like more psyker stuff

That’s not the conversation and it’s a pointless one, it depends if the books have been selling.

There’s endless stuff I’d love to see

[gaunt sable]

When that organization has a High Lord with a permanent seat at the big boy table? And they sided with Girlyman when some of the other High Lords tried doing a coup?
......Yes?

[dusk patrol]

Or get more of

[gaunt sable]

Source?

[dusk patrol]

She jsut said

Hollow Mountain

[crystal forum]

im asking this because i watched the oculus imperia video about blackshields and im fascinated by the atavists. I can imagine a chunk of iron hands being rendered so desolate by the loss of ferrus that they'd burn off their armour paint and return back to acting like storm walkers

[dusk patrol]

Unfortunately that’s basically all the lore we have on them

[sour hornet]

I mean, clearly not. The Imperial creed literally states to fear the witch. I don't know why you're expecting the Imperium at large to respect their autonomy at all.

[crystal forum]

it's more than i expected. i imagine storm walker colours are black and unpainted metal?

[sour hornet]

The only "psykers" that are actually respected are Navis Nobilite, and not many others.

[gaunt sable]

It would have been one thing if a Ministorium Priest were present and responsible for the moral and spiritual health of the Psykers and Staff.
But for him to be in charge and the only teaching staff being mentioned specifically being Crusaders (Another Ministorium branch!) being responsible for hand to hand combat training was BIZARRE.

[dusk patrol]

I don’t think we know

A lot of the original legions prior to their primarch we don’t know their color schemes

[crystal forum]

i'll assume metallic then

[dusk patrol]

Yeah that’s what I’d bet

[small grail]

The istavan bombing was sad as hell bro

[storm jungle]

They are a religious issue while still being useful to the Imperium, keeping them mostly pliable is half the aim on why they are useful, the Ecclesiarchy largely has no authority on what the Telepathica gets up to.

[crystal forum]

maybe leadbelcher with a lot of nuln oil

[gaunt sable]

Was wanting to know if it was a book specifically, or an Audio book or a TTRP Adventure Module or what.

[crystal forum]

or iron hand steel

[dusk patrol]

It’s a novel

[small grail]

Especially with that dreadnought and space marines dialogues

[gaunt sable]

The Imperial Creed has very little to do with the politics of the high lords.

[sour hornet]

I mean, they're literally running the only Scholastia Psykana school we get a look at, so obviously not. They definitely have a role.

[gaunt sable]

Since it also says to abhor the mutant but we have Psykers sitting at the big boy table and the Navigators.

[dusk patrol]

The legion didn’t change a lot after Ferrus was found so it’s not unlikely they already had a similar scheme

[dusk patrol]

What are you basing this off lol

[storm jungle]

I mean from what we see of the High Lords they largely do not care.

[dusk patrol]

Psykers and Navigators are allowed mutants

[storm jungle]

They are entirely after their own agendas

the Creed is like just a buzzword to utilize for them

[dusk patrol]

That’s always been a thing

[storm jungle]

Yeah

hence why im saying it

[sour hornet]

Tell me what happens to 90% of psykers after being tithed.

[storm jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/new-edition-tommybrown-tommy-smoking-gif-26152294

[storm jungle]

That is also not really an accurate number

psyker sacrifices compared to ones that get actually drafted is like wildly indiffernet

especially since its more of a willpower thing lol

[sour hornet]

How many actually get tithed per year?

Is there ever a solid #?

[storm jungle]

No lmao

we are talkign about the entire galaxy here

so "90%" is like not a thing

[sour hornet]

Not even a vague millions?

[storm jungle]

Again

entire galaxy

millions of worlds

[gaunt sable]

Emmesh is claiming that the AAT is somehow not allowed to govern it's own affairs because 'Imperial Creed says Witches are le bad!'
When we have multiple organizations at the big boy table that are.....Mutants and Witches.

[storm jungle]

its not countable

[queen laurel]

i think people forget that the imperium literally covers the entire milky way

[sour hornet]

Yeah, we get actual numbers for hive worlds though.

[queen laurel]

on average billions die the moment you

[gaunt sable]

The point being they are sanctioned.

[crystal forum]

the amount of psykers sacrificed to the emperor is always a comical amount

[gaunt sable]

If they are sanctioned the Imperium is giving them a legal grounds to exist.

[sour hornet]

Atoma has 90 billion. They at least give us a tiny sliver.

[storm jungle]

Which are also extremely inconsistent

and thats 1 planet

and 90 Billion is a rough estimate

[sour hornet]

Yeah.

[storm jungle]

theres no way of counting it

[sour hornet]

Better than literally none

[queen laurel]

You're doing the first wrong thing in warhammer trying to make logic on a thing that finding logic for is not gonna make sense anytime soon

[crystal forum]

numbers in 40k are just whatever makes most sense in your head

[queen laurel]

with how inconsistent warhammer is and retcons being funny you are not gonna find an exact number

[sour hornet]

They're literally trying to logic why the Ecclesiarchy (the religious zealots) run the Scholastia Psykana (the schools that train freaks)

It seems very on the nose and obvious why they do.

[dusk patrol]

I’m sure for some schools that’s the case, I don’t agree that’s a for sure given reason but we largely see the Ecclisarchy in teaching positions in the few schola’s we see

Or a heavy connection there

[gaunt sable]

They get turned into the Emperor's Scooby Snacks.
But those Psykers are not members of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica.

[dusk patrol]

I’m sure there’s some cases of it not too

[gaunt sable]

Sanctioned Psykers are members of the AAT.

[dusk patrol]

Most of them don’t go to the throne

There’s far too many tithed

[sour hornet]

They aren't trusted very much even when sanctioned. Most having designated executioners.

[dusk patrol]

Most seem to end up as astropaths

Or probably just killed tbh

[sour hornet]

And astropaths are soul-bonded so that they cannot fall prey to corruption in the standard manner.

[dusk patrol]

The Throne is actually a super rare fate for a psyker

[crystal forum]

i like the idea that killing psykers for the emperor doesn't even do anything but the imperium still does it

[dusk patrol]

With how few psykers it goes through in the grand scheme

[storm jungle]

I mean we know it does

[sour hornet]

Regular psykers aren't ever really trusted. Guard psykers have no command authority at any rank.

[storm jungle]

so you cant even headcannon it

[dusk patrol]

The psykers dying for the throne definitely matters

It’s considered a huge honor in fact

Most psykers won’t go there

1000 per day roughly dying hooked up to it is a super low number with how many psykers there are found by the black ships

[hallow plover]

Guard psykers are tolerated with their superior always ready to put a las shot through their brain asap if it goes wrong

[sour hornet]

It's smart to listen to them, but regular guardsmen can basically tell them to fuck off until a regular officer commands them to listen.

[dusk patrol]

Also a lot of psykers don’t go to Terra

[gaunt sable]

From what sources Psykers either get flagged for termination or flagged into becoming Throne Kibble.
The rest either getting shunted to either the Scholastia Psykana for training or the get shunted to be made into an Astropath.

[dusk patrol]

There’s other locations for binding them

[storm jungle]

A ton do, its more that like theres so fucking many that it doesnt largely even matter that some dont yeah.

human numbers turn into soup once you go past a certain threshold

[gaunt sable]

My point is is that sanctioned Psykers are under the legal purview of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica.

[storm jungle]

Yeah to a point but more or less

once they join the guard or other institutes its more like a boarding school where the teachers can execute you 💀

[gaunt sable]

The psykers that get made into Throne kibble or just executed out of hand are not members of the AAT.

[gaunt sable]

Thats because their not members of the Imperial Guard.

[sour hornet]

Like tamed animals under the sanction of their owner. Never really trusted, because they can flay the flesh from your face if they sneeze too hard.

[gaunt sable]

Psykers are part of an entirely different organization then the Guard.

If you want to be technical they're on loan.

[sour hornet]

I know what they are, but even in real life, you can be place under the command of an entirely separate organization or even armed force. Psykers are never trusted with this as we see.

[storm jungle]

Im glad I can trust my human squadmates

nvm

[gaunt sable]

That's not saying all that much. Guardsmen have designated Executioners too.

[sour hornet]

Astartes are like those super GMO filled chickens at the store with rippling muscles.

What's the term?

"Post-human?"

[dusk patrol]

What is even being argued here anymore I don’t even get what’s being disagreed on

[storm jungle]

I forgot tbh

[hallow plover]

We're eating post-chickens?

[sour hornet]

I will.

[crystal forum]

post malone

[storm jungle]

🫵

the lesson is trust no one

not even your own species

[sour hornet]

Look... they just got a little silly.

[crystal forum]

i trust you dilara

[sour hornet]

Too much space whisky

[storm jungle]

First mistake

[dusk patrol]

Trusting a discord mod?

Pathetic

[sour hornet]

It was originally "how are psykers treated in the Imperium"

Which was answered with "bad" and "good if they're trusted"

[dusk patrol]

Just gonna go with the boring ass answer “it depends”

[sour hornet]

which was followed by "they're never trusted"

[dusk patrol]

Always works

[storm jungle]

That also depends

gottem

ANYWAY STOP FUCKING ARGUING

[sour hornet]

followed by "Yeah, but inquisitors"

[storm jungle]

To be fair that also depends

[crystal forum]

somebody once told me that "it depends" is a worse answer than no answer at all and i still dont know how i should feel about rhat

[dusk patrol]

Now watch this sick Fulgrim vs Ferrus art

[gaunt sable]

The problem is a priest really has no business being the headmaster for a scholastia psykana facility.
Drill Abbots might be Priests but their still all veterans with decades of combat experience that got ordained into the priesthood for the sole purpose of being a drill instructor.
And I don't think the drill habits are the actual headmasters of the schola progeniums.

[storm jungle]

I mean the sad reality is its a correct answer

[dusk patrol]

Well obviously they do because they are

[storm jungle]

its what we tell that patrick pfp dude

[hallow plover]

As it should be

[crystal forum]

because it sure is a better answer than a wrong answer

[dusk patrol]

Like you’ll be shocked to learn this, most football coaches aren’t nearly as good as their players

[storm jungle]

Well yeah because its not an incorrect answer

[dusk patrol]

Some never played at any level

[storm jungle]

40k is literally built to be "it depends" to give you, the virgin player, the freedom to make anything

🫵

[dusk patrol]

Yeah

It’s boring but like

Use your imagination dork

[sour hornet]

Anything???

[storm jungle]

its the same reason why Inquisitors and Rogue Trader are literally just formatted to be like a D&D party.

[storm jungle]

Uhhhh it depends. Just dont make cringe homebrew

like an Inquisitor who has a whorehouse

[dusk patrol]

Except for those weird things you were thinking

[storm jungle]

gifted by the ecclisarchy

yes this is a thing i saw

[dusk patrol]

It’s like porn, I know cringe when I see it

[sour hornet]

Say that phrase one more time and I'm combusting.

[dusk patrol]

Don’t be cringe

[hallow plover]

I was talking to a guy and I learned that he was really into 40k. Eventually he starts talking about "sweet eldar girlfriends" and shipping Gman and Yvraine. ||of course he tells me he likes weshammer and the other loser thats obnoxious on YT (can't remember the name ||

[storm jungle]

GOD

[hallow plover]

https://tenor.com/view/kurt-angle-space-marine-warhammer-warhammer-40k-stare-gif-15034398051697687266

My face the whole time

[storm jungle]

"Do space marines fuck"

Someone gives the Lukas answer
Me: AUGHHHHH

[sour hornet]

My og corsair homebrew featuring unique aeldari corsair "Azurel Bloodriver" is by no means cringe

[storm jungle]

SHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUP

[crystal forum]

what's the lukas answer

[storm jungle]

"he fucked some gals so they can fuck"

[crystal forum]

who did

[storm jungle]

....

I JUST SAID WHO DID

[crystal forum]

guilliman?

[storm jungle]

someone kill this guy

I CANT PUT UP WITH THIS ANYMORE

[sour hornet]

Yeah.

[crystal forum]

wait lukas is a space marine?

[dusk patrol]

https://tenor.com/view/larper-gigachad-titanfall2-viper-nowhere-to-cope-nowhere-to-seeth-gif-23018171

[storm jungle]

😭

[gaunt sable]

Once again that is because they're part of an entirely different organization. They can't give orders to Imperial guardsmen because they're not part of the chain of command in any way shape or form because, once again. Their not part of the Departmento Munitorium.
Their on LOAN to the D.M. (And the AAT can probably reassign them.)
Psykers take orders from Guard Officers because their seconded to the Guard as well as Primaris Psykers (Because their more highly placed in the AAT.)

[hallow plover]

https://tenor.com/view/green-mile-im-tired-boss-michael-clarke-duncan-gif-2375696290766999196

[dusk patrol]

[sour hornet]

Roboute Guilliman and Yvraine were sloppily kissing in the bushes, I saw it and I don't lie

[crystal forum]

huh

[sour hornet]

(factual information)

[gaunt sable]

No.
I'm going through the backlog.

[rocky gale]

https://tenor.com/view/no-nope-no-way-noo-absolutely-not-gif-20244171

[storm jungle]

No.

Cease.

Whoever keeps this argument going im gonna nuke first.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1022085083844325376.webp?size=96&quality=lossless

[dusk patrol]

Here’s a very canon and lore accurate art of it

[gaunt sable]

Backlog completed. O.O

[storm jungle]

I love how its apparently "evidence" that GW ships the couple

[sour hornet]

An I'm saying, that they wouldn't be listened to regardless. Imperial Knights are entirely outside of the CoC, but if one gives an Imperial Guard Lieutenant an order, they're more likely than not to follow it.

A guard company could be completely decimated, and they would almost certainly listen to the Cadian PFC or CPL rather than the Lieutenant-Savant, regardless of the situation. They're just not trusted with command over humans.

[storm jungle]

how about I ship you the bottom of the ocean with cement shoes

[dusk patrol]

The funniest thing is it’s really the harlequin and Black Templar being seated together that’s the craziest part of art

Who place set that table?!

[plush mason]

im sorry what, "regiment of foot"

[sour hornet]

I mean she's basically in his lap. It's obviously James Workshop's canon OTP priority ship. 🤓

[storm jungle]

[storm jungle]

[rocky gale]

Also confirms canonically that you can eat Orks

[sour hornet]

People eat mushrooms IRL, so...

[dusk patrol]

Well we already knew that

[crystal forum]

666th. how original

[sour hornet]

Just good eating.

[dusk patrol]

Some guard eat them

And marines have

[sour hornet]

Guard will eat anything though.

[dusk patrol]

It’s apparently chewy

[rocky gale]

Yet yous called me a fool for proposing Ork farms

[queen laurel]

Should Go For the squigs most of the time though chewing on a muscular brute isn't really a nice one

[rocky gale]

[sour hornet]

I love grunts in SciFi settings eating everything.

[queen laurel]

that is because it is literally hard to contain them

[gaunt sable]

The Imperial Guard has literally no legal cause to follow such an order.
They'd be obligated to laugh and tell them to fuck off.

At best they can take it as a suggestion.

[sour hornet]

They 100% would not do that though.

[plush mason]

still better than the grey knights

[dusk patrol]

https://youtu.be/FpL6Fwu0wkw?si=LULl_qy10d5HRkdE

[gaunt sable]

There's literally zero reason for any Guard Officer to bend over backwards for for a member of the Knight Houses unless their given orders from one of their officers to follow any such orders.

[dusk patrol]

Power in the Imperium isn’t a simple concept

[dusk patrol]

Yes there is

Endless reasons

[sour hornet]

Every interaction between IG and Imperial Knights basically has the IG acting very obsequious and thankful for the support.

[dusk patrol]

Just like there’s endless reasons for vice versa occurring too

Astartes technically don’t have power over guard either often

They’re still in charge a lot

Why?

[sour hornet]

If not reacting with outright awe when a Freeblade shows up.

[gaunt sable]

That doesn't mean the order being given is legal.

Or that they have to obey it.

Or that there wouldn't be consequences for the officer in question.

[sour hornet]

Legality literally doesn't matter.

[hallow plover]

It's a warzone

[dusk patrol]

Because the Imperium is a feudal state in space and whose in charge often isn’t clear and has to be decided by reputation, force, or politics

[sour hornet]

They'll follow it regardless.

[hallow plover]

There's no conventions in a space warzone

[plush mason]

soft power is the norm when dealing cross-faction in 40k. it matters a hell of a lot who is saying what to whom

[dusk patrol]

Yeah

An Inquisitor can technically tell almost anyone what to do

But one without proper reputation and support could easily find themselves dead if they’re not careful

[sour hornet]

Knights are the biggest guns around unless the AdMech has a say. An Imperial Guard officer will accommodate to his or her utmost.

[gaunt sable]

The point I'm making is that a knight can make any kind of order he wants to to the guard.
And the guard can say.
"We'll take it under advisement."

[dusk patrol]

It doesn’t matter what their technical authority is

[sour hornet]

He very likely will not, though.

[dusk patrol]

If the other guy can just shoot you can get away with it, or because he’s willing to die or whatever

[gaunt sable]

Under what basis?

[dusk patrol]

Because knights have big guns honestly

It depends

[sour hornet]

Under the basis that an Imperial Knight is giving him an order.

Be it the bigass guns, or massive soft power a Knight House carries with them.

[dusk patrol]

Just as easily it could be the knight has to listen to the commander for the same reasons

[sour hornet]

If High King Whatever gives that IG officer an order, unless it's very contrary to his previous mission, he'll very likely agree and coordinate.

[dusk patrol]

Especially if it’s a more minor house and a very accomplished high ranking guard dude

We’ve seen space marines defer to guard commanders plenty of times

[sour hornet]

If a Lord General gives him a request, and is above his station, the Knight will very likely agree.

[dusk patrol]

Its politics

There’s not really a set rule for what happens.

And

[sour hornet]

Even though he doesn't have to. It's basically rule of the biggest influence.

[dusk patrol]

Just as easily they could argue over whose in charge and refuse to coordinate properly

Or not have a clear person in charge

And just do their own thing with requests for helps or whatever

[gaunt sable]

It isn't an order though.
It's a suggestion.
One that the Imperial Guard have no real reason to obey.
They are not vassals of the Knight Houses.
And the Knights 'Suggestion' could be counter to a Guardsmens own orders from their officers.

[dusk patrol]

You’re really not listening at all

https://youtu.be/FpL6Fwu0wkw?si=LULl_qy10d5HRkdE

Watch this

Legit watch it

This is how power in the Imperium works

It’s not clear cut

[sour hornet]

But they do give orders, and the Imperial Guard obeys. It's the same principle for Titan Legios. They are bigger. When they give orders, everyone adjusts their plans around what they want, unless they have enough clout to refuse.

They have power. The Imperial Guard has the "legal" right to refuse, but they literally never do.

[dusk patrol]

Like why do you think branches of the Imperium have open warfare with one another

[sour hornet]

The only people with the authority to command Knight Houses are the Inquisitors and maybe the High Lords. Despite being "outside of the chain of command" they hold a massive amount of sway. So when one tells a Guard officer "pull infantry support", unless he has enough power to refuse (he likely doesn't) he will obey.

It's the difference between power "De Jure" and power "De Facto"

[gaunt sable]

I am.
I just think your both wrong.
The Knight Houses have no legal authority over the Guard and the Guard have no legal authority over the Knight Houses. Any 'order' that either side gives the other is a 'suggestion' that's granted more or less weight based on a plethora of political factors, pre-existing instructions, traditions and whoever wins at the game of political peacocking.

A Guard Officer would only follow the orders of a Knight if his own Officers said to follow said orders as whatever was agreed upon prior. Otherwise whatever 'requests' they have go. "Go ask MY Boss."
A Knight issuing orders to the Guard are not legal orders from the Chain of Command of the Departmento Munitorium.
The only 'weight' those orders would carry are whatever weight the senior guard officers on staff in that theater deign to give them.

[dusk patrol]

I wouldn’t say only people but yes they’re often beholden to basically themselves or very few people and whose in charge gets tricky

[dusk patrol]

Why do imperium forces fight eachother ever

If they always follow orders

Surely one person in charge would prevent this

[storm jungle]

IT

JUST

DEPENDS

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[dusk patrol]

YES

That’s what we’re trying to say

[storm jungle]

[rocky gale]

Always remember, power is a shadow on the wall and chaos is a ladder

[dusk patrol]

Now I’m gonna post this video again and I’m don’t with this because we’ve explained it like fifty times

[plush mason]

you are forgetting one of the most important part of 40k, the imperium doesnt work as a system and is only still around due to plot

[dusk patrol]

actually I’m not cause I’m lazy

[storm jungle]

Like a guard commander can nicely fucking ask for a Knight to do something and so can a Knight.

If they dont fucking listen they will both hit each other with "IM GONNA TELL MY SUPERIOR ABOUT WHAT YOU DID"

[dusk patrol]

Watch this

[sour hornet]

They're literally not saying that, and basically haven't ever said it when Knights and IG work together.

[gaunt sable]

If a Knight voxes a Guard company garrisoning a town to to mount up and support his assault on a fortified position twenty miles north of where they are the Guard can tell him.
"That's nice. Please direct any requests to my Superiors and they can tell me what to do after. My orders are to guard this town."

[storm jungle]

Can you both like

go into DMs

and makeout or something

[dusk patrol]

It’s a feudal system there often isn’t one clear person in charge and you know

Politics

[storm jungle]

^

Its about authority and your Mafia City level

literally

https://tenor.com/view/pan-hit-money-cash-make-money-gif-15004350

[fallen plaza]

Swag

[hallow plover]

Just like in a real big company 🤔

[dusk patrol]

Like recently a senator from West Virginia in the US had a lot of political power because he was a deciding vote for stuff, politics makes odd cases of people being “in power”

[hallow plover]

It's all down to HR

[storm jungle]

^

to both of those

authority is king but so is greasing palms, having charisma, a proper standing etc

Power is a simple word but has a lot of meanings

[dusk patrol]

And that’s when it’s working

[storm jungle]

Yep.

[dusk patrol]

In 40k it’s often not

And it goes to open warfare

[storm jungle]

Yeah because people are assholes and barely listen to each other.

A knight and a guard person can both literally just say no or yes to each other.

It depends.

[plush mason]

de facto power always trumps de jure power

[sour hornet]

If High King Torthvald drops down with 300 Knights and tells that company, "you're with us, fuck your boss", they're basically 9/10 going.

[plush mason]

if they are smart at least

if not the knights just kill them as an example to not be dumb

[sour hornet]

Basically.

[plush mason]

yup

de facto>de jure

always and forever

[sour hornet]

What happens in practice is that whoever has the bigger gun wins the "who is listening to who" game. And the winner is often the Knight.

[plush mason]

yup

[wintry scarab]

SM2 getting face customization is confirmed. Very cool.

[sour hornet]

You're joking???

[plush mason]

how will that work with the classes being named characters?

[storm jungle]

finally the racist users will shut up

[wintry scarab]

Nope, its in their new community QnA

[dusk patrol]

Will they though?

[storm jungle]

okay true

[plush mason]

ofc not

[storm jungle]

rip 💀

[gaunt sable]

That senator from West Virginia can't go on to a military base and tell an army battalion to mount up and lay siege to the district over to him.

[wintry scarab]

Im guessing its just going to be the same as the armour. Its just not going to be cannon.

[hallow plover]

Too bad i've gone back to darktide

[dusk patrol]

The United States isn’t the Imperium and I don’t need peanut gallery remarks on this

[plush mason]

see but, our government actually works on a fundamental level, the imperium does not

[dusk patrol]

You’re missing the point again and I don’t buy you don’t get the point being made

[queen laurel]

Dilara didn't vermintide allowed you to also customise premade characters

[wintry scarab]

Sadly for people like me, I have to just deal with Decimuses accent.

[sour hornet]

If he was in a Mobile Suit Gundam with the entire EFSF military behind him, he probably could let's be real.

[queen laurel]

like giving kruber a bigger beard or something

[dusk patrol]

Anyways it’s been made a ton of times, and I don’t care to keep repeating it

[sour hornet]

Y'know it's refreshing to get into a lore debate that isn't related to recent bullshit for the 40 trillionth time.

[gaunt sable]

I am absolutely convinced y'all ain't reading but I'm actually saying.
Whatever authority that a completely separate organization has over another is entirely at that organizations whims and desires.

A Knight doesn't have automatic authority over the Guard because their a Knight.
They have it because someone higher up the guards chain of command went.
"Do what the Royal Inbred says."

[wintry scarab]

Wait, idk how this comes across. Im not saying im racist, i just hate his accent

[sour hornet]

I mean, he does. Unless the Guard has a bigger level of clout.

[gaunt sable]

And all of this would have been determined by a bunch of stuffed shirts with a lot of medals and titles all got together in a command tent and wrangled whose listening to who.

[storm jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/muppetwiki-muppet-wiki-muppet-muppets-kermit-gif-13282760728630259313

[sour hornet]

Except it wouldn't, because there are Knight Houses that literally teleport into battle when they want.

With prior communication being a "if the King feels like it or not" situation.

[wintry scarab]

My POV rn:

[dusk patrol]

Except there often isn’t anything like that or anyone who can tell the groups to play nice

[sour hornet]

Like astartes, IK Houses can either communicate healthily like adults, or just freeball their way onto a battlefield with none whatsoever.

[dusk patrol]

Marines often show up to help on their own choice

And do what they want

[gaunt sable]

"That's nice. Talk to my Colonel. I'm not doing what your saying unless I'm ordered to. Your literally NOT my boss." Is a perfectly valid thing for a Guardsmen to say.

[plush mason]

i have, so many questions

[dusk patrol]

Knight Houses are the same

[dusk patrol]

And then the knight can get made and start blasting him

[gaunt sable]

They are most certainly not.

[dusk patrol]

Like idk what’s complicated about this

[dusk patrol]

Yes they often have more authority than chapters

Especially if the king shows up and it’s an old enough house

And big enough one

[gaunt sable]

Space Marines have an immense religious pull.

[dusk patrol]

I didn’t say they didn’t

[sour hornet]

Literally nobody but inquisitors can command them.

They hold immense sway. The guardsmen could say that. But he won't.

[dusk patrol]

Houses aren’t even all the same just like chapters aren’t

[gaunt sable]

Or the adeptus mechanicus.

Depending on affiliation.

[dusk patrol]

Dante even before he was appointed Lord Commander had far more when he showed up at any Warzone despite the fact he technically was just a chapter master

[gaunt sable]

Still.

[plush mason]

a chapter of the first founding will always have more sway in any and all matters than a chapter of the -insert random number of founding- here

[sour hornet]

Some Houses are more friendly and will happily debate chain of command and logistics. Others will see anyone of lesser station as peons, and simply ignore them.

[dusk patrol]

And this isn’t something that’s legally set in stone either

[sour hornet]

Houses are akin to Chapters in that way.

[dusk patrol]

Technically Dante before he was Lord Commander was the same as any chapter master

Legally

But in actual political power and sway he was far more powerful

[gaunt sable]

Knights are an entirely seperate organization.
So no shit they can't generally be ordered around.

[plush mason]

technically they should all be equal in authority

[dusk patrol]

Yeah

[sour hornet]

Like Astartes chapters, Houses quite literally do what they want unless an Inquisitor shows up, or they get called to war by another very high power.

[plush mason]

but they arent, because reality rarely if ever matches the letter of the law

[gaunt sable]

Once again. That's because their not part of the Imperium's usual power structure.

NOT because their of a 'higher rank'

[sour hornet]

You're saying "the guardsman can legally tell him to fuck off" and I'm telling you that he can, but 99% of the time will absolutely not do that.

[plush mason]

yes they are, the imperium's power structure is a mess of technically equal forces all jocking for more power

[sour hornet]

Knights win the influence and clout game, and the guardsmen will be compelled to agree.

And if he doesn't, the Knight can straight up obliterate him.

There is always a chance of that happening.

[gaunt sable]

The thrust of my argument is that from a legal standpoint a Knight isn't giving orders to the Guard. He's giving 'suggestions' unless someone in charge of the Guard says.
"The Inbred Noble in the giant mech's word carries as much weight as my own."

[dusk patrol]

He can do both

How they’re followed though is where the politics come in

[gaunt sable]

Whatever the power dynamic is going to be between the various organizations operating in any given theater would have been decided upon before things kicked off.

[dusk patrol]

This isn’t true at all and can change

[plush mason]

the guard the cult and the administorium all technically fall under the branch of the Adeptus terra iirc, but each one of them is constantly trying to gain authority and power over the others while also trying to gain power and authority over the other factions of the imperium's upper levels

[dusk patrol]

We see this endlessly

Astartes chapters or knight houses sometimes just show up

[sour hornet]

No.

[dusk patrol]

And start “helping”

[sour hornet]

Just straight up

[dusk patrol]

Or ignore all hails for coordination

[sour hornet]

Some AdMech houses literally can teleport onto planets.

And just show up

[dusk patrol]

Ideally, there would be a clear chain of command

[sour hornet]

With absolutely no warning other than "were here"

[dusk patrol]

And they try to do that because it’s a good idea

Or people defer to whoever

This doesn’t always work though

The imperial does not always run optimally

It often does not in fact

[gaunt sable]

I never implied with any of my arguments that every situation would be optimal.

[dusk patrol]

We see plenty of times knights or marines or whoever just withdrawing without warning because someone calls them somewhere else or whatever or they’re mad

You can’t do that if the chain of command was established clearly and if they had to follow it

[gaunt sable]

Just that the ideal is that some agreement would be hammered out prior to delineate who can order who and under what circumstances.

[dusk patrol]

Yes and that ideal is often not met

Or is broken

Idk what’s complex about this

[plush mason]

the iron snakes just randomly showing up to a small mining world and taking it over to help them deal with drukhari raids

[opaque coyote]

Lamenters when their allies leave because they are "cursed" due to their founding:

[sour hornet]

Astartes and Knights in those situations give actual orders to guardsmen. Not 'suggestions', it's basically "go do this thing exactly" and they salute and go do it.

[plush mason]

both the commander of the PDF and the planetary governor had to bow to the captain's will

[opaque coyote]

[gaunt sable]

Once again.
Space Marines are in a unique position where the majority of the Imperium of man sees them as literal angels who are physical manifestations of the Emperor's Wrath.

[dusk patrol]

No they aren’t

[sour hornet]

And a 15 meter tall machine of death punching apart daemon engines isn't?

[gaunt sable]

And even people who might have a slightly more secular and realistic vision of what Space Marines are generally defer to them because they are multi-century-year-old Super men with an immense amount of strategic and tactical acumen.

[dusk patrol]

They defer to them because they’ll fucking kill you otherwise often

[sour hornet]

^^^^^

[gaunt sable]

Depends on the chapter and situation.

Some chapters are a lot more chill and diplomatic than others.

[plush mason]

in the short story i mentioned just how the govenor and commander where almost about to rebel due to the iron snakes letting the drukarhi kill so many of the colonists

[dusk patrol]

Not a lot of guard commanders are arguing with this dude

[dusk patrol]

Yes just like anything

It’s all politics

[fallen plaza]

You love that image dont you

[opaque coyote]

Tbf they also are often experts at their field. Whether it's sieging, attacking, etc.

So usually it's half "I need advice because you are experts"

And half "Please do not massacre my regiment. We need the actual enemies to do that at least"

[plush mason]

tech marines are always based

[dusk patrol]

It a mix of fear, respect, knowledge, and desire to work with them because they’re marines

And having marines on your side is generally a good idea

[dusk patrol]

It’s awesome so yes

Often marines are officially given command of a Warzone or whatever

Often times they’re not and they do what they like still

[opaque coyote]

Yeah the Tech Marines can have unique silhouettes and designs

Unlike regular Marines which just have a different paint job

Or maybe a different ornament that you will barely notice!!!

[dusk patrol]

There’s no rules really is the point

It’s politics and whatever

[gaunt sable]

We've seen plenty of times where the Guard and the Astartes have significant friction over who's in charge of a military theater.

[plush mason]

pure de facto aka soft power

[dusk patrol]

Yes

Which is my fucking point

https://tenor.com/view/meme-angry-punho-fechado-de-gif-26104429

[opaque coyote]

It's also why I like CSMs as well. Gives you the opportunity to make a lot of varied designs.

I want my Sphess Marinez to be

✨unique✨

[plush mason]

ever since global agenda i have loved the robotic arms look

engineer my beloved

[dusk patrol]

Is this the part of the conversation where you just start making the points? I’ve been making back at Me and then we agree suddenly?

[gaunt sable]

Ultimately my point is that the Imperium has no centralized command authority.
And multiple competing organizations that are often at loggerheads with one another because their organizations have no legal basis command the other ones.
This leads to significant tension and soft power playing in the background.

[dusk patrol]

Because I’d love that

[dusk patrol]

What the

Fuck me like

YES

THATS WHAT WEVE BEEN SAYING

[opaque coyote]

Yeah you can add mechandendrites and shit.

Hell you can even add like

Bolters to their pauldrons if you want to

[gaunt sable]

Knights only have as much authority as the guard gives them.

[sour hornet]

Basically unless the Militarum suit is of high enough clout, the Knights/Astartes are going to be giving direct orders to forces nominally outside of their CoC.

Once again.

[dusk patrol]

Jfc did I just get punked?

[arctic talon]

Idk

[dusk patrol]

Where’s the camera

Fuck me

[opaque coyote]

It was a prank bro

[gaunt sable]

Sounds more like we were talking past each other over a general technicality.

[opaque coyote]

It was just a prank

Look at the camera bro

[dusk patrol]

I feel like it’s Groundhog Day

[sour hornet]

It's because legality goes as far as the barrel of a gun in 40K.

Biggest stick commands the others, whether or not it's legal.

[plush mason]

the eldar are not wrong to call the imperium monkies

[gaunt sable]

Well no.
It's not entirely 'might makes right.' that's hard power.

[opaque coyote]

Honestly wonder if someone actually pointed it out.

Since the Eldar are basically just referring to another race technically

[plush mason]

they have full on regressed to the stage of early neolithic peoples, "biggest stick and most kills is leader"

[gaunt sable]

The Knight isn't about to mow down a hypothetical Guard Company because they refused to obey his orders.

[opaque coyote]

"Hey that sounds like monkeys. What we evolved fro-"

"WE'RE NOT REFERRING TO THAT YOU STUPID MON'KEIGH"

"Hey you said it again!"

"GAAAH"

[gaunt sable]

The Guard Company isn't being compelled to obey because the Knight is threatening violence.

[sour hornet]

Legio Astorum drops onto a planet, unless you're actually Yarrick or a High Inquisitor, they're now commanding Guard forces as of right now.

[opaque coyote]

[sour hornet]

It is very much might makes right.

[storm jungle]

Okay no

its not that simple

ill say that much

[sour hornet]

High Inquisitor Rex literally had to force a face to face.

[gaunt sable]

"Please meet with the general staff so we can coordinate our battle plan."

[sour hornet]

A High Inquisitor

[crisp heath]

How would you know? Were you there? Smh

[storm jungle]

Yeah because he was aware he has to otherwise they would fuck up everything.

[gaunt sable]

The Imperium aren't orks.

[storm jungle]

this isnt bowing down

this is making compromises

[opaque coyote]

Genuine question, are Inquisitors technically higher than the High Terran Lords "on paper"?

[crisp heath]

No

There is a high lord inquisitor

[gaunt sable]

The biggest guy with the biggest gun on hand isn't the one in charge.

[storm jungle]

Unless they got any dirt on them no. The Vaults of Terra pretty much says if you try this as an Inquisitor its close to career suicide.

[sour hornet]

Yeah they literally weren't going to do shit until he pulled rank in person. Unless you can do that, the Legio is basically doing what they want.

[storm jungle]

Thats mostly a "representative" its selected my multiple Inquisitor Lords as a delegate

[storm jungle]

They cant.

They either follow orders or face repurcussions.

they cant willy nilly go off

[opaque coyote]

It's the one with the supplies, the planning, etc.

Even if someone more powerful comes along. Usually they work together with the forces already there because it's easier

[sour hornet]

Amim Kargori couldn't command them at all. Unless you're an Inquisitor or similar repute, they basically are in their own agenda.

[storm jungle]

Yeah because hes just a nobody

This is literally

again

"IT DEPENDS."

[gaunt sable]

Yes and No.
Yes in that technically they are.
No in that, barring you having all of the High Lords dirty secrets they'll crush you for your impertinence with the weight of their office.

[opaque coyote]

Marines, although they definitely can take command, usually work with the guard.

And although they will disagree, and infighting definitely does happen.

Usually the Marines do take the advice of Commanders seriously because they've been on wherever they're fighting longer

[sour hornet]

Not really. Either you have the power and/or offical remit to command them, or you don't.

Biggest stick, official or otherwise.

[opaque coyote]

Makes sense.

So on paper they're technically more powerful

In practice, shooting yourself might be a more efficient way of killing yourself

[storm jungle]

Yeah really.

Like ive been a fan of 40k for like 12 years and read over a hundred books (yes I counted them kill me)

I feel like I kinda know what im talking about

[gaunt sable]

On paper and Inquisitor has the legal remit to question everyone and hold everyone accountable.

In reality they would get crushed.

[queen laurel]

We can't kill you you have absorbed so much warhammer slop that you are now the chaos god of the mire, Dilarian

[opaque coyote]

Nurgle gets into the black library somehow

Opens a book

It's a Gav Thrope Eldar book

"I have found my home"

[dusk patrol]

You can read?

[sour hornet]

Doesn't really matter when every example you show me is either:

A, the person has a hard hook by inquisitorial remit, or binding oath to battle.

Or B: they have more than enough backing, military and political, to hold sway over the Legio. Typically Lord Militants and such.

Like 99% of cases fall into that.

[opaque coyote]

It would be funny if there was a Nurgling just casually reading in the black library

[storm jungle]

I gotta teach people their place somehow

[opaque coyote]

Not even doing anything chaotic

Just

Reading slop

[storm jungle]

Yeah it does kinda matter.

[sour hornet]

It's mostly big stick diplomacy, time and time again.

[storm jungle]

Like again

holy shit

its not "big stick"

its never that simple

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO FUCKING GET

[sour hornet]

It is though.

[storm jungle]

It is not though.

[opaque coyote]

It's a combination of circumstances, power, culture, etc.

[storm jungle]

^

As ever. It depends.

[opaque coyote]

Oh and also the writers

Don't forget that

[crisp heath]

Do assassinourm operatives have any free time outside of killing or is that all they are allowed to do forever until they die?

[arctic talon]

They have free time when they’re off mission

As to what they do with it

Usually training

[opaque coyote]

They usually go into cryo sleep although I think that's only for the assassins

I forgot which ones

[arctic talon]

That’s for eversor’s

[opaque coyote]

Yeah

[arctic talon]

Since they’re a bunch of drug fueled maniacs

[opaque coyote]

Besides that idk

Read pornoslates, smoke warp dust

Ig

Just whatever they do when they're bored like most people

[arctic talon]

I doubt members of the assasinorum get drugs beyond combat stims

The Venenum prolly can cook up their own crap

[opaque coyote]

Yeah maybe they spend time just detoxing it from their system so that they don't

Die early

[arctic talon]

But the other temples won’t have it

[sour hornet]

The nebulous "it depends", when it ends up working out the stated way the vast majority of times. Astartes chapters run into this shit literally all of the time. Their authority ends at the limit of their ability to enforce it.

[opaque coyote]

Unless again, eversor

Who run on drugs

Until they die

[gaunt sable]

Maybe they're talking about orks?

[opaque coyote]

There are some cases like Cadia where everyone was working together in a equal manner so that they can defend it against chaos.

Unfortunately that kinda ended when uh

Abaddon yeeted a broken Blackstone Fortress at a planet and turned it into spacerocks

In general, infighting does happen. But it isn't as often as the Orks

[fallen plaza]

😁

[opaque coyote]

Even in the Imperium, working together is often easier than fighting each other.

Unless of course, interests get malaligned

[gaunt sable]

......Okay. So.....Who actually RUNS the Eversor Temples? And does all the training? >.>

[queen laurel]

Yeah the literal reason orks haven't taken over the universe is because they kill each other a lot

[dusk patrol]

Eversor assassins

[arctic talon]

Eversors, who’ve “graduated”

[storm jungle]

Shut the fuck up Zimmer lol

[gaunt sable]

If all the Eversors are screaming drugged up combat psychos constantly in cryo when not actually murdering whose the fucking people in charge of that temple?

[arctic talon]

Eversors who’ve gotten past that point

[sour hornet]

Space Wolves and Ordo Malleus literally tore each other apart trying to enforce rules upon the other. It fucked the Chapter for quite a bit.

[arctic talon]

Which to be clear isn’t many of them

[gaunt sable]

I don't see a eversor going cold turkey to run the temple

[dusk patrol]

They’re not insane

They’re very lucid as they’re killing people

[sour hornet]

The "don't be a cunt" rule for the Space Wolves.

[arctic talon]

They don’t go cold turkey in a literal sense

But they do stop taking combat stims

[dusk patrol]

Also they don’t always have the drugs in their system

[arctic talon]

24/7

[dusk patrol]

Their blood is replaced by the drugs while on mission

[queen laurel]

How did you become the leader of the temple

Stopping my drug addiction

[arctic talon]

Do enough missions

[opaque coyote]

Yes that is because their interests malaligned.

The Ordo Malleus wanted to put people in death camps and sterilize them.

The Space Wolves, who are one of the 3 chapters that actually care about civvies, disagreed with that notion.

So then they went to war

[dusk patrol]

Wrong he got so good at is that he transcended his drug addiction

[gaunt sable]

the Eversor Temple has long made use of a special cocktail of combat enhancement drugs that are designed to instill a psychotic rage in its Assassins and to further enhance their physical capabilities to the point that it strains even their enhanced physiologies

[arctic talon]

What about it

[gaunt sable]

Unfortunately, these drugs are also usually highly addictive and if the infusions are stopped, the Eversor Assassin will likely die from the agonising withdrawal symptoms. Additionally, the drugs will also dramatically shorten the Assassin's lifespan if he was allowed to remain conscious continually.

[dusk patrol]

Quoting wikis is always a bad idea

[sour hornet]

Malleus is legally in the right, though.

[gaunt sable]

None of that's conducive towards Eversor Assassin's actually being the ones running the show.

[gaunt sable]

I'm in the field so I don't really have much of a choice.

Orange groves as far as I can seeeee!

[dusk patrol]

The point is that’s our old understanding

We have since gotten new lore on the temples from books

[queen laurel]

Go to the lexicanum for lore

[arctic talon]

Lexicanum still has that

[gaunt sable]

Fine one second.

[arctic talon]

Clearly at some point GW changed that

[dusk patrol]

Lexi isn’t better largely

[arctic talon]

Because we know Eversors run the temple now

[queen laurel]

Oh for fucks

[arctic talon]

Either way

That’s the lore

[queen laurel]

F****** changing lore

[opaque coyote]

Legally yes

But SMs don't often follow legal practices often.

Surprisingly enough, people don't follow the rules 100%, and the SMs are not fucking servitors

[sour hornet]

Space Wolves as should, disagreed. And after the war was over, both were so fucked they decided to let it rest.

[arctic talon]

I’d assume the withdrawal

[dusk patrol]

Not really changed we just didn’t know prior

[arctic talon]

Isn’t nearly as bad as it was written to be originally

[queen laurel]

This entire setting has more retcons than i have brain cells

[dusk patrol]

I wouldn’t be shocked if the Eversors are kept on the drugs to some degree

[arctic talon]

[dusk patrol]

A safer amount

[arctic talon]

Most likely

[dusk patrol]

The important thing is assassin temples leadership is made up of assassins

[opaque coyote]

There are probably some Eversors who are like

Basically slowly lowering their doses so that the withdrawal doesn't fucking kill them

[dusk patrol]

Ones that survive enough missions

[gaunt sable]

Lexicanum literally says all the same shit.

[languid meadow]

btw during the months of shame the space wolves never fired once on the inquisition and grey knight forces, it was only until the grey knights broke a cease fire is when the space wolves fought back.

[dusk patrol]

Yes and as we said wikis are shit sources for this stuff often

[queen laurel]

Unfortunately it seems gw just does the funny

[dusk patrol]

Stuff changes

[queen laurel]

Lex is still more reliable though

[dusk patrol]

This lore is from like

2020

[queen laurel]

Wiki is straight up just copy and paste and copy and paste

Repeat until you complete an entire paragraph

[dusk patrol]

Sorry 2022

[gaunt sable]

Regardless it still seems that Eversors are still hopelessly psychotic bloody handed killers that are permanently addicted to their combat drugs and have a shortened lifespan if they weren't shoved in cryo.

So back to my question.

Who runs the Temple?

[dusk patrol]

Eversors

As we said

[opaque coyote]

The Grey Knights are sort of inconsistently written.

And they also have Geneseed from the Emperor, who is also inconsistently written.

COINCIDENCE?

Definitely but it is funny

[queen laurel]

Yeah this is also the imperium which also has advanced medicine

I'm pretty sure they can like take some type of medicine to mitigate the effects of withdrawals

[gaunt sable]

And is there a source for this?

[dusk patrol]

Assassinorum Kingmaker

We learn how Temples promote

They promote based off mission survival, as you survive more you get sent in harder missions

[plush mason]

i mean, a single company isnt much of a loss

[dusk patrol]

Eventually you reach a level where you become basically a free agent and can choose your targets

[gaunt sable]

And they confirmed that Eversors can be stable enough to run the Temple then?

[dusk patrol]

And from there you get to the higher ranks and leadership roles

[gaunt sable]

That's fine if so.

[dusk patrol]

They confirmed this is how temples work so you would assume yes

[opaque coyote]

Maybe Eversors have shifts where they go off of cryo sleep to take care of the others

And they switch via a schedule

[languid meadow]

when it comes to certain aspects yeah but I quiet like their pragmatism, they are willing to help and work with eldar to stop chaos and have before. And thankfully the writers are starting to tone down their hyper hostility to them being secret, because killing a regiment of guard for seeing you it just grimderp.

[dusk patrol]

We’ve seen Eversors in action too they’re not insane

[gaunt sable]

It's understandable for the other assassin temples to promote successful assassins into leadership positions.

[dusk patrol]

They’re very lucid while on mission actually, they just love killing and don’t have to care about collateral

[gaunt sable]

The Eversor just always seemed too unstable, crazy and short lived for that.

[dusk patrol]

Most are

Most assassins are short lived

Only the best survive

Very few make it past their first six missions iirc it’s said

[gaunt sable]

Or shoved into permanent stasis because they're too unstable.

[opaque coyote]

I'm pretty sure the love killing part is half brainwashing

And half combat stims

[sour hornet]

Space Wolves get more and more based.

[dusk patrol]

They select Eversor candidates from psychopaths and serial killers

[opaque coyote]

Ah makes sense

[dusk patrol]

Often at least

[languid meadow]

no the example I gave is GK

I think the wolves have worked with eldar before?

I don't remember

[opaque coyote]

I wonder how many % of serial killers go to the temple vs simply getting a bolter shell through their skull

[dusk patrol]

I imagine most don’t make the cut

[arctic talon]

Yeah

[sour hornet]

I mean, based Wolves for holding to their word until the GKs broke the truce.

[languid meadow]

oh yeah

[dusk patrol]

Technically we see one work with them in Rogue Trader

[sour hornet]

they get even cooler

[dusk patrol]

If you wanna be pedantic

[languid meadow]

I like Months of shame but sadly it was during the time when the GK were mega assholes to other loyalists

[opaque coyote]

They probably just choose the ones by having a squad of the local PDF beat them with sticks, and see who can actually fight back lmao

[queen laurel]

All right, that's another $1 million for me for every time i see a imperial group recruit on a group criminals and psychopaths

This is like what the seventh

[dusk patrol]

Doesn’t seem to be a shortage of these individuals

[opaque coyote]

It's almost like an empire entirely based on ignorance, violence, and oppression would make those kind of people???

Nooo couldn't be

The Imperium is innocent trust

[queen laurel]

If you live in a rotting shit hole of a galaxy psychopaths are in plenty of supplies

[opaque coyote]

[sour hornet]

working with the elves is always a plus in my book

[opaque coyote]

I liked the Night Lords because it's kind of a return to form to the Rogue Trader edition where all SMs used to be criminals of some kind

[queen laurel]

Well that rather explains your eccentric mental state

[opaque coyote]

Nah

That's the autism and ADHD talking

[queen laurel]

Aight

I believe you

[wraith quartz]

Hey, sidenote: Do Navy crewmen have ballistics training? Like if they get boarded, and I mean "if", what's their protocol in dealing with that?

[opaque coyote]

Also Slaanesh is my favorite Chaos god.

Kinda wish there was more than just BDSM and sex for their daemons tho

It's also why I like noise marines

[queen laurel]

Her demons are the personification of warped beauty

[opaque coyote]

THIS QUIET DISPLEASES SLAANESH

[queen laurel]

And she is eccess

You want a new body okay here's a few workout regimes and a nice new cream

Next thing you know you are making a protein shake out of dead orphans

[opaque coyote]

True. Just kinda wish that some other concepts of excess thrown in there for some extra spice

Ig Lucius counts?

Since he loves dueling

[queen laurel]

the memes overly blow it

Trust me her interpretation is fine

It's just that fans are

Again a bit screwed on the head

[opaque coyote]

True

I think my favorite daemon is the Steed of Slaanesh

[fallen plaza]

[opaque coyote]

Malcador of the chat

Give me your wisdom