40k-lore-chat

[storm jungle]

we are already too bloated

[wicked lion]

He won’t come back but I kinda wish he would

[storm jungle]

I don't.

get him outta here

lmao

[queen laurel]

ah yes my favorite characters iron hands and black black

[wicked lion]

Because his interactions with current iron hands would be really interesting

[storm jungle]

I mean thats the thing with literally every primarch

"Oh how would they interact with their chapter"

[wicked lion]

Nah the imperial fists have changed very, very little

[rose thorn]

I might make a chapter that’s the librators of white scars, but that would just be space marine kult of speed

[wicked lion]

White scars haven’t changed much

[storm jungle]

White Scars are basically that

[rose thorn]

Fair

[wicked lion]

Salamanders haven’t changed much

[summer mural]

the only thing I like about the imperial fists is lysander and the phalanx

[tulip brook]

Eh, his whole thing was contrasting fulgrim with humble straight edge trope and die to him for a tragedy. I don't think there were much to be done with a character like that

[summer mural]

but he had MANICURED HANDS

[wicked lion]

I mean everyone likes kult of speed so I don’t see a problem

Ork vehicles are dope

So seeing ork vehicles but like

[rose thorn]

Who made the space marine bikes again

[summer mural]

Khan is currently driving the batmobile across the webway, having death races with the dark eldar

[rose thorn]

It’s not land John raider

[wicked lion]

Whatever the fuck the admech can come up with

Would be dope

[queen laurel]

Megatrakk Scrapjets are literally run on fucking jet engines

[summer mural]

are skitaari better than your average guardsmen regiment

[wicked lion]

I GOT BRUTAL KUNIN FOR CHRISTMAS

[rocky gale]

Pretty much any returning Primarch would look at their Chapter and be like "What the fuck happened to you guys" Sure the Lion returned and decided he could trust the Fallen who'd betrayed him 10k year ago more than he could trust the current Dark Angels.

[queen laurel]

read it

[rose thorn]

Corvus didn’t really have a cult

[wicked lion]

I’ve read through the first few chapters and it’s fantastic

So don’t spoil the rest

[queen laurel]

Ulfthak is based

[wicked lion]

He’s insane

In the literal sense

[summer mural]

Corvus is too stealthy and emo to have a cult, unless his cult is also stealthy and emo

[wicked lion]

I REALLY hope Corvus comes back

[summer mural]

Corvus was consistently kinda awesome

[queen laurel]

his model is ******* amazing

[wicked lion]

Entirely because his demon bird model will be dope

[summer mural]

sharrowkyn is also kinda awesome

dual wielding two swords and turning into a shadowy wraith

damn

[rose thorn]

I love these bastards

[queen laurel]

damn

[summer mural]

how tf did they decide the best way to worship guilliman is to bloodlet

[wicked lion]

Image failed to load thanks discord

[rose thorn]

A codex astarties misprint?

[summer mural]

you can probably worship guilliman much more if you do maths problems and play paradox games

[rose thorn]

They worship the codex as a holy text

[wicked lion]

Oh that’s dope

[rose thorn]

RECOIL SQUIG RECOIL SQUIG

[wicked lion]

Khorns favourite ultramarines

[queen laurel]

yes Princess is his trusty companion

[wicked lion]

I’ve gotten that far but not much further

No spoilers

[rose thorn]

They are the best, I’m probably gonna make a killteam of them and then swear to never paint that much yellow and black again

[wicked lion]

We can talk about ANYTHING ELSE orks

[summer mural]

whos da best ork

[gray umbra]

I misread the chapter name as Liberals for a sec

[queen laurel]

Yeah I'm going to toss these guys next to the Mortifactors

[summer mural]

losers on armageddon dont count

[queen laurel]

successors of guilliman but are ******* weird

[summer mural]

thats literally me at farmhouse parties

[rose thorn]

Mentally unstable space marine chapters:

A thread

libators
mortificers
anything dark angels except like the forgiven

[summer mural]

black templars

[rose thorn]

Good point

[queen laurel]

Gorgutz is the most entertaining, Ghazghkull is the most interesting narratively, and Ulfthak is straight up just awesome

[summer mural]

but what about

kaptain bloodflagg 😢

[queen laurel]

he's good

[median marsh]

Thinking of weird marines, I recall..I think it was flesh tearers that ate a force of sisters who thought them corrupt

[summer mural]

LMAO

[median marsh]

And I mean literally ate

[summer mural]

flesh tearers are kinda wack, but seth is so damn good

" Yeah, Im nuts and so is my chapter, but we are loyal, cheers!"

[storm jungle]

it was during the war for Armageddon

which is even funnier lmao

because THEY WERE RIGHT, the Flesh Tearers were fucking crazy

[median marsh]

[storm jungle]

they also murdered even more civillians ontop of it but thats like a checklist at this point

[summer mural]

seth admitted as much eventually, but he just kept insisting they were uber loyal

iirc

[median marsh]

A small misunderstanding

[summer mural]

" twas a tiny mistake"

[median marsh]

"sure I cooked the orphanage but these things just happen ok?"

[summer mural]

the whole scene where hes called into a hearing with all blood angel successor chapter masters and dante himself to determine the fate of his chapter is one my favourite scenes

[queen laurel]

You people are insane!!

the flesh tearer eating an innocent person:

[summer mural]

and then they all conclude(correctly) that the flesh tearers and seth are fucking nuts and unreliable and then that gigachad chaplain whose name I forgot who actually fought seth and disliked him comes in and speaks in his defense

[prisma lark]

Astorath?

[storm jungle]

Astropath?

[summer mural]

yeah astorath the grim

astoraths job is to kill blood angels lost to the black rage

because they go on a killing spree

and so he clashes with seth constantly, but when the conclave, which includes dante and all the successor ba chapter masters conclude that the flesh tearers cant really go around butchering innocents anymore, astorath comes in and defends seth, which kinda saves them

[rose thorn]

Iron hands are severally mentally unwell

[versed ledge]

Do space Marines use camo?

[summer mural]

like, stealth tech camo or facepaint camo

[median marsh]

Scouts do

[rose thorn]

Actual camp or sci-fi cano

The snipers use a camo cloak

[versed ledge]

Stealth tech, or basic camo to match the environment?

[summer mural]

yeah they do

[versed ledge]

I mean it's hard to miss a big yellow walking tank

[summer mural]

I dunno if they paint their armor to blend in with a forest, but they do use stealth camo

not all of them of course

[median marsh]

Marines generally don't really need camo as their purpose is quick shock insertion to decimate key points in the battle I'd imagine

[summer mural]

well you have scouts

but its really a specialized tool yeah

[river walrus]

Is Ulgo big? Or little ones tiny?

[versed ledge]

Fair enough, I mean they don't even use silenced weapons.

Can you imagine how bad the tinnitus is with bolters and other heavy weapons

[summer mural]

there is an entire chapter dedicated to ambushes, covert strikes and stealth tactics , but they are occasionally emo and very few of them can turn into a shadowy wraith mist thing so...yeah

[versed ledge]

Dark ravens?

[summer mural]

raven guard

[versed ledge]

Oh yeah those guys

I wonder how bulky, heavy, space marine in that chapter even sneaks around?

Combat wise they're like the only reasonable chapter there is

[summer mural]

they just quickly strangle anyone who hears them, eventually theres no left to hear them, stealth achieved

[versed ledge]

The ogryn way then

[thorn zenith]

"YOU DO NOT SEE GRUG"

[median marsh]

There are factors that kinda allow marines to pull it off

Their armor due to black carapace is almost an extension of them

[storm jungle]

This shit sounding like an actual official chapter name kills me

[median marsh]

They have a much better control over it and movement overall in comparison to a normal human in a suit of power armor

Other factors may include stuff like where the ambush is located, the planet etc

If there's an active war going around, there's a good chance the noise drowns out stuff

some wildlife is also incredibly fukin loud

I can see some bird called catachan earburster or some shite that screams loud enough to cover a jet engine as a defence mechanism

[summer mural]

are ravens even around in the 41st millenium

wouldnt be surprised if its an extinct species

[storm jungle]

Literally almost most famous animals in today's age are

Its a big handwave explanation of "Oh old age colonists from terra took them onto other worlds and now they are everywhere

[median marsh]

I can see corvids outlasting most other birds tbh

[tulip brook]

Or the name stays long after the animal goes extinct and they call a random bird they have raven

[coarse pumice]

Blood Hands

Raven Warriors

Blood Fists

Raven Fists

Imperial Guard

Hmm what other mixes can I do for chapters

[queen laurel]

Iron Salamanders

[tulip brook]

Blood Ravens

[coarse pumice]

Raven Angels

[tulip brook]

Oh wait

Space Warriors

[queen laurel]

The Emperor's Hands

[tulip brook]

Emperor's Sons

Dark templars

[coarse pumice]

Dark Fists

[queen laurel]

Space Salamanders

[tough haven]

Do the drukari typically resurrect non drukari? I had heard people saying that it is futile to commit suicide before being captured by then since they’ll just bring you back, but I find that unlikely given the effort involved

[storm jungle]

Entirely depends.

Are you just some random slave? Then they probably wont bother

Are you a slave that some particular high ranking dark eldar like torturing and never killing or they simply just want you in particular to suffer longer?

They will absolutely resurrect you.

Most of these resources/tech at the hand of higher dark eldar are pretty common, its just down to how or where they are used and for what purpose.

[queen laurel]

Yeah so as a human in a dark eldar slave pit don't stand out

You you may as well jump off your death when they capture you given the opportunity

[storm jungle]

Yeah its basically entirely much down to how sadistic your handlers are lol

[coarse pumice]

Lactose free latte? no!

[rose thorn]

Blood marines, Raven marines, fist marines

ULTRA BLOOD

https://tenor.com/view/shannon-sharpe-v1-ultrakill-suit-smile-gif-26496634

In the year of 40 thousand, blood is fuel

[queen laurel]

that crack addicted robot would definitely be doing ultra kill combos on a space marine legion for real for real

[misty widget]

What year does ultrakill take place?

[spring cairn]

unknown

but probably in the somewhat distant future

[summer mural]

what sniper rifles do space marines use?

stalker bolters?

longlas?

[storm jungle]

Theres a few, mostly look pretty cursed

[summer mural]

are those lasers

[storm jungle]

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sniper

[summer mural]

or ballistic

[spring cairn]

why did he detach the scope to look thru it

is he stupid

[summer mural]

well I mean, its easier to scout with the scope rather than just pointing the gun around

just use the scope as a binocular

[spring cairn]

seems like it's the same result for less efforts

[summer mural]

the other way around

[spring cairn]

keeping the scope on

[summer mural]

if you dont intend to use the firearm and just wanna gather information, just handling the scope will allow you to do it simpler

as opposed to pointing the gun around everywhere just to look

[spring cairn]

any designated marksman in an armed force to confirm that's dumb

would be appreciated

Like i'd see why you could want to it if you're not a space marine

because rifle heavy

[summer mural]

indeed

[spring cairn]

but he's a space marine

he doesn't give a shit

that rifle is lightweight baby

[summer mural]

is it though

its a space marine sized rifle

[spring cairn]

yeah he has a power armor

and is very strong naturally

[summer mural]

is that power armor

[spring cairn]

i mean

he's a space marine

it's kinda their whole thing

[summer mural]

well scout marines are the ones that generally use sniper rifles

and they dont always wear power armor

iirc

[spring cairn]

i can see powerpacks on the minis so

[summer mural]

whats the grey thing under the dude on the top left

is that a broken pedestal

[storm jungle]

just a random imperial effigy

its scenery

[arctic talon]

That guy isn’t a scout he’s an eliminator

[crystal forum]

long bolters. all space marines basically use modified bolters except for specialists

even in the year 40'000 the military loves modularity

in 9th edition even a basic bolter had 3 different versions on tabletop

[crystal forum]

are eliminators good btw

[arctic talon]

They’re fine this edition

Not as good as last

Where they were one of the best anti everything options

[crystal forum]

so i realized recently that the apothacary biologis that came in the leviathan box has gravis armour

[arctic talon]

Yeah

The box was clearly designed

[crystal forum]

which means i can attach him to heavy units

[arctic talon]

Pre 10e

[crystal forum]

coincidentally i bought a squad of heavy intercessors instead of the plasma squad

[arctic talon]

Heh

[rocky gale]

The Biologis is a great attachment for Heavy Intercessors or Aggressors

[crystal forum]

idk giving heavy intercessors lethal wounds sounds pretty based

[rocky gale]

Yee

[crystal forum]

im honestly just happy that i found a use for the heavy intercessors

[rocky gale]

Heavy Intercessors are great in 10th, in 9th they were kinda meh and too expensive

Plus they look cool

[crystal forum]

really sucks that there's no lieutenant in gravis

there's like 2 in phobos for some reason

[rocky gale]

The Biologis is the best equivalent for a Gravis Lieutenant

Tor Garadon or Calgar are also good picks if you don't mind named character

[crisp heath]

Alright, you know how relics are like, ancient historical things believed to be important because they denote faith based figures? Like in Darktide, the curios you find are relics. The finger bone of some random Saint encased in holy wood. The stone carving of a particularly important sororitas maybe.

[crystal forum]

it doesn't fit the soul drinkers sadly

[crisp heath]

That's what that stone tablet is.

Likely some saint or other important figure

[rose thorn]

I mean if he was in a cramp space where he can’t be moving his giant ass gun around I could see but nah he’s just out in the wild lmao

It’s so silly

[rose thorn]

I’m surprised they have stocks too

[storm jungle]

its a classic case of Primaris gear sometimes looking too modern

those guns are literally just H&K Rifles lol

[summer mural]

whats an eliminator? a marine sniper?

[arctic talon]

Marine sniper

[plush mason]

they actually have practical pauldrons atleast

[tulip brook]

wrong audience, we don't like practicality, we need ridiculously big shoulders

[rocky gale]

Yea they've lightweight Phobos armour, so some people use them for the whole tacticool marine vibe.

[tulip brook]

look at this thing, absolutely atrocious

[rocky gale]

Yea personally I'm not a fan of phobos armour, it just looks off to me

But some people like the whole lightweight aspect of it

[tulip brook]

the only thing I like about it, it doesn't have the giant chest aquila

[summer mural]

so, did that whole bit about grey knights meeting some sisters of battle battling khornate daemons and then deciding to bathe in the blood of the sisters after killing them to ward off corruption get retconned

[tulip brook]

tbh I don't like gravis either. it's a pain in the ass to assemble

[arctic talon]

I like how some of the Phobos stuff looks

But not all of it

[versed ledge]

Woah I actually like this marine's loadout

[storm jungle]

It got retconned next edition yeah

40k ever RARELY retcons stuff so that tells you something about how cringe it was lmao

[rose thorn]

My partner and I are gonna make opposing armies that. Are in each others lore

It’s perfect

She is space marines I’m genestealer cults

Basically my cult managed to over throw her home planet while they were off doing something

The planet was a major naval power

Probably be like

‘Claws of the Deep Gods’ or something sorta cthuluish

Paint them like the navy breathers

Breachers

The planet gets mulched so her space marines are uh, I forgot the word

Also ships = militarum = brood brothers

It’s perfect

[pale onyx]

Hey guys I noticed space marine call none space marines “humans” sometimes. I thought space marines were humans just genetically modified. And they all fight for the emperor and humanity

[rose thorn]

God complex

That’s why

[pale onyx]

Damn

[arctic talon]

Also they call normal humans mortals

As well

[pale onyx]

Guess astra militarum and sisters will be my top contenders for best imperium armies then. I’m fighting for humanity here, not egotistical humans who see themselves above humanity

[plush mason]

they are living weapons. post-human supersoldiers so yeah them not really being human is a big part of their identity

they are also technically child soldiers

because whats better than a post-human supersoldier? a post-human supersoldier that is mentally 13

[storm jungle]

They call humans "mortals "when Marines can literally die to shit like a psyker telekinetically throwing a rock at them too fast

[plush mason]

ye

[green loom]

Even marines are confused about it, but they're technically no longer human with what they go through

[storm jungle]

LMAO

christ they are so far gone

[plush mason]

ye

[pale onyx]

Salamanders see themselves as humans right

[plush mason]

kinda

hard to see yourself in something half your size and way weaker and slower than you

[pale onyx]

True

[green loom]

Also I don't think sisters are really fighting for common humanity here, they're fighting for the boss and the boss alone

Guard are also mostly conscripts so they're probably not the most willing neither

[plush mason]

also remember. SM are like mentally teenagers

so they dont have the level of maturity you might expect from a 100+ year old super human

[plush mason]

given the living conditions most people in the imperium suffer in i imagine the guard is a big improvment for most

[arctic talon]

Oh it’s a huge improvement over being worked to death in a manufacotrum lol

[plush mason]

ye

[pale onyx]

Yeah but I thought they hated SM because they are genetically modified and not “human”. Since they fight for the big E and humanity since that’s the big E main objective, conquer the galaxy for humanity

[green loom]

They hate everyone

Because they're all undeserving sinners

[pale onyx]

Fair enough

[plush mason]

including themselves

[rose thorn]

[crisp heath]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ONgH8R00rAY

[wicked lion]

shouldve named this chat lorehammer40k

[potent karma]

Oh shoot, the Nids are at it again... Segmentum Pacificus got hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hozon6qL4iE

[wicked lion]

when are the nids NOT at it?

[storm jungle]

Is there finally some lore on the Tyranid Death Star

oooh White Dwarf

[earnest snow]

GOT DANG THEY DUN HIT THE PACIFICUS!

[velvet imp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SLyiJShZOI

[crisp heath]

So with how many worlds the tyranids are eating, has the population of the imperium started going down each year or are we not there yet?

[green loom]

Iirc there's an extract of an Administratum official panicking because of how many people they'll have to conscript

So I'd say yeah it's fucking with their population fairly noticeably

There will always be as many guard as the plot needs granted

[tulip brook]

They can grow humans in labs to use them as sliding doors

I think they'll be fine with bugs infesting a few systems

[green loom]

Well infesting would be one thing, rampaging through population centers and stripping them bare of all life is another

[crisp heath]

I'm late by a bit, but I think I can answer a bit of your question. While no exact source, at least to my knowledge, can point to the impact of the tyranids on the imperiums population as a whole, partly because the Imperium does not have a standardized system of census across the entire Imperium. Single hivecities have multiple billions of people, and there are over a million worlds within the imperium, each usually having multiple hivecities on them. Hive Fleet Leviathan and Hive Fleet Kronos I know are at this point in time destroying large portions thanks and in no small part due to the Great Rift. I don't exactly know numbers, but they've taken multiple worlds. The issue is that while massive and growing, the tyranids face the same problem everyone else does atm. They are surrounded on all sides by multiple separate varying factions each that have developed decent countermeasures to them separate from humans. They also do not seem focused solely on completely devouring everything yet. There does seem to be an undercurrent of planning to them, if we take into account the world they are sheltering instead of devouring. But basically, at this point in time, they due not have large enough a force to take out enough systems to put a dent in the imperiums population density. It's simply like taking a bucket of water out of a lake and expecting to see a difference.

[tulip brook]

Sounds like a typical roach infestation

[tulip brook]

They're considered the biggest threat alongside chaos atm so they're definitely putting a good dent in imperium population. Bugs almost destroyed combined forces of blood angels, necrons and a greater daemon. Then they won against the biggest ork force in the setting. These are just individual fleets.

[crisp heath]

But it's not a sizeable dent you can measure. That's all I'm saying. I don't disagree with anything you just said, but much of the reason they are perceived as a threat on par with chaos is the idea that this is just the spear tip of something far worse coming in the future.

If no giant evil tyranid force comes from outside the galaxy, and the tyranids stay as they are, they'll never be more than a nuisance honestly. A horrific, terrible nuisance, but that's it. Basically they'd be more in line with orcs at that point.

Just depends on the future

But like I said, at this point in time, there's just no real sources to quote any numbers off of in terms of Imperial population loss

At least afaik

[tulip brook]

There won't be any population study or financial report anyway. It's called Warhammer40k, not Excelsheet40k

[crisp heath]

🤣

Fair

I feel like someone's nerd enough to do it in the community somewhere though lol

That person just ain't me lol

[green loom]

Many people how

[late osprey]

Well, wait, wouldn't that fall under the purview of the Administratum?

[green loom]

Unfortunately a large amount of them are also stupid and on the other end of the spectrum of "bad with numbers" as GW

[late osprey]

Part of the imperiumm is characterized by this colossally eldritch bureaucracy

i should think the census numbers are also there, if also lost in that bureaucracy

and often a good century out of date

[crisp heath]

@late osprey Afaik, the administratum leaves most of the affairs of the worlds to the respective governors, and only really care about the tithes. Things like censuses depend on the society of the planet in question usually, and very much likely won't be shared with the wider imperium unless an inquisitorial agent is looking for someone specifically.

[late osprey]

World population would factor in to calculating due tithe, wouldn't it? IIRC worlds are given basically "tax brackets" in terms of what, and how much, they're expected to give in tithe

[crisp heath]

Honestly idk, I doubt it's ever been fleshed out in any real way

But from my understanding, even the governors usually have no idea how many people live in their hives

Like, think about the untold number we know live in the underhives. I'm sure it's usually just generalized

Or based more on the upper echelon

[late osprey]

I think most numbers would be highly estimated and often significantly out of date, yeah.

[green loom]

It's probably part of the tithe report or something

It's not really explained

[late osprey]

Though I do think the population count of each panet would be in the Administratum, if lost in a literal maze of world reports.

and knowing 40k, it would probably take one person months to find the specific report of a specific planet

in a given administratum library

[crisp heath]

Basically

[green loom]

I'd also note the Administratum is very integrated on most actually developed worlds

[crisp heath]

If they exist, they're so far buried as to be inconsequential

[crisp heath]

Very true

[green loom]

Like they still run things

[late osprey]

I would bet money that one of 40k's original inspirations was Kafka's bureaucratic nightmare novels

[crisp heath]

But that diminishes the further you get from Solaris. It really just depends on the system in question I suppose, but I'd think the vast majority of worlds are ran loosely by them, with little direct interference or influence

[late osprey]

Which, considering that, the Administratum definitely has census numbers buried under their eldritch-sized record halls

As mentioned, they technically have them, though good luck actually GETTING the census from them

[crisp heath]

They may or they may not

Again it depends on the world. Some worlds are feudal and aren't even modernized

[late osprey]

and IIRC a lot of planets go many years before they're visited by the Imperium, those census figures would probably only have been delivered in the last Imperial tithe

[crisp heath]

Only the very top know of the imperium and the tithes

[late osprey]

if they were even capable of acquiring said census, yeah

pre-modern worlds would be almost impossible to properly measure

[crisp heath]

We have literally know idea what goes into the tithes

Or how that process works

There is literally nothing that says any census is a part of it.

We guess that there might be

[late osprey]

we only know that planets are given a "tithe grade"

there's no real evidence that population has anything to do with that designation, yeah

but it's a reasonable assumption. hive worlds ought to pay more than feudal worlds

[crisp heath]

Exactly. We don't know any of the particulars. It could be based on production and value to the imperium and have noting to do with the population at all

So to say that there are censuses out there, for most worlds, or at least a good number, maybe. But not all almost certainly

Like, take Gman for instance.

His worlds definitely have censuses, with everything in order

[late osprey]

the only thing that gives us any indication is, simply, "The size of the tithe depends on the type of world to which it is applied." from the Lexicanum

so that implies that the tithe is decided almmost entirely by the world classification

how THAT is decided

is a mystery

[crisp heath]

So production. Agri-worlds pay this type of tithe, manfuctorum worlds this type, fortress worlds this, so on.

It's their strategic position and production that determines it

At least that's what that tells me

Which would likely mean population factors little into it unless they are a major recruitment world

[late osprey]

the mystery i think comes less with the obvious cases, an entire world of farms, an entire world of manufactorums, but worlds that have multiple industries

like a hive world DOES produce food and DOES produce manufactured goods

[crisp heath]

Those would definitely be harder to classify

[late osprey]

it definitely could get really in the weeds really quickly

[crisp heath]

Probably just a generalist type?

[late osprey]

WHAT the tithe is, i think is determined by that, yeah

though HOW MUCH they pay is also a consideration, with "tithe grade Experima" being considered the highest (also from Lexicanum)

and that I think is also very unclear

census may play a part into that, though

[tulip brook]

It seems to me, they decide on a tithe and it keeps on forever until they decide to change it and it takes a good while until the changes are effective

[late osprey]

yeah, Administratum decides to say "okay this world pays X stuff in Y amount" is my indication

and some really terrible bureaucratic nnightmare leads them to that decision

in which i do think census would pay a part into that much, at least

not all agri-worlds are equal, not all forge worlds are equal, etc etc

[tulip brook]

So an agri world undergoing some kind of industrial revolution and tripling the production mostly keeps it to themselves until big brother realizes

On the other end, some kind of famine may lead to total collapse and getting extra punishment for dying

[tough haven]

Or how important you are to them

[late osprey]

that is definitely an imperial moment

governor of agri-world faces world-wide famine and disease, gets executed for not paying up

[green loom]

Pretty much how it goes

[tough haven]

Btw are there any branches or sects of the mechanicus that actually strive to enlighten the common people, and actually spread knowledge to humanity as a whole? Cause a large part of their mission statements can be construed that way. And I know a lot of them say that’s what they strive for, but in reality they just hoard power and information

[crisp heath]

No

That's literally against everything the mechanicus believe in

Knowledge is dangerous to them

And to learn it you have to earn it

Afaik the closest you'll ever get to something like that is Cawl

And he's basically ostracized for it

[late osprey]

they probably wouldn't haven't even given equipment to the Imperium if the Emperor didn't coerce them 10,000 years ago

they would've just stayed on mars blasting each other with titans

[crisp heath]

Probably true ngl

[summer mural]

oh damn

the emprah was willing to forgive magnus (but not his legion) and actually wanted him to lead the proto grey knights?

[celest dome]

Did he ?

[summer mural]

well apparently when magnus broke into the throne room during the sot

emprah and vulkan were the there

and emprah was willing to forgive magnus, which magnus was awestruck by, but emprah also told him that while he could be forgiven, his legion was too far gone and would be obliterated, but magnus would get to lead a new shiny legion of space marines that were all psykers

of course magnus couldnt choose to abandon his sons and let them die, vulkan tells him he ought to, but then the big red asks the big green if hed be willing to let his legion die while he gets forgiven, and the big green just looks down and lifts up his ubersized hammer( that has a teleporation button for those rare moments when vulkan wants to spawn in the atmosphere to do his best comet impersonation)

vulkan beats the shit out of magnus, and which points magnus accepts his fate as a servant of chaos, because he got no choice, and becomes a daemon prince, for which he gets banished by the emperors psychic barriers, which didnt affect magnus earlier because he hadnt given himself to chaos entirely by then

of course, all this wholesomeness eventually goes to shit

because its revealed that vulkan isnt actually vulkan , who after beating up magnus has been condemning him for all his mistakes ( pretty decent argument tbh), and magnus realizes that vulkan cant know all of that, and its basically implied that the emprah is using vulkan to condemn magnus and punish him fatally and that he doesnt in fact, forgive him, because magnus , unlike the other traitor primarchs , is under the illusion that hes free and more in control of his fate than the rest, when really hes just as much a slave to chaos as everyone else

[crisp heath]

Yea. Basically that was Big Es plan for his legion in the first place (ish.) The Grey Knights were a last ditch hail merry at the end of the Heresy as a full frontal assault against all things heretic and daemon. Magnus's original legion was more all things warp and psycher. But also, "leading" them was a bit of a misnomer, as Magnus would not likely have a direct hand in their leadership. He was meant for the astronomicon. He was purpose built so that he could sit and run that while the emperor worked in his web way project. The Grey Knights came after this, and was more of a last ditch effort to give him a road back and a clean chapter to fight chaos with. Magnus of course could let go of his fealty to his sons though, and even asked Vulkan at one pikt if their roles were reversed, and Vulkan was asked to sacrifice his sons as tainted for a new pure legion, would he. The answer was very obviously "no." And that's when the two fight. Even Velkan admits to the callousness of the emperor and his actions toward Magnus, and Velkan is also likely the best/worst to ask, as he's arguably the mist compassionate of all the Primarchs.

[summer mural]

well sure, but he makes a lot of good points

because he directly addresses the whole idea that magnus did nothing wrong

[crisp heath]

Oh yeah, he had a very balanced look at the whole thing

[summer mural]

by literally telling him step by step how he screwed up

[crisp heath]

Ehh, I disagree with some of his "step-by-step" and the premise that because everyone else was OK with little to no information that means everyone should be OK with it

Magnus wasn't wrong. Just nobody agreed with him

Almost every primarch now looks back on that with regret

[summer mural]

for example, magnus complains he wasnt given all the information by the emperor , about the chaos gods or the webway project, but then vulkan tells him " sure bro, but like, neither was I, neither was Khan, neither was Russ, Neither was sanguinius, neither was corvax or Dorn or Guilliman , you dont see us making deals with entities we dont know just because they are offering us help, you dont see us seiging terra"

[crisp heath]

Yea, and that's blatantly a fallacy

1. The emperor and Magnus had been in literal contact since before his birth

And that continued throughout his life

2. Magnus. Above, all the other primarchs beside the one cursed to stare into the warp from birth, should have been told everything, and the fact he wasn't leads credence to the emperor hedging his bets and planning for the heresy

[summer mural]

I mean, sure, but again, magnus took tzeentchs help to save his sons from becoming chaos spawn, but really all that did was deepen their taint ultimately , magnus defied orders and practised sorcery, then he got punished for it and sided with horus even after he knew that russ had been manipulated by horus, this is the same magnus who was willing to let prospero burn and his legion die for a good chunk of the burning of prospero because he knew hed screwed up by destroying the webway project

[crisp heath]

3. The idea that just because nobody else asks a question means the question has no merit is blatantly a fallacy.

[summer mural]

its not the asking, its the extreme response to the lack of answers, and then allowing your hubris to guide you

[crisp heath]

I don't agree, but he was working on half information, whereas the emperor could have very easily solved his problem but didnt

And also watched as he was roasted at the whatever summit

[summer mural]

i mean, the biggest condemnor is a lot of magnus's own self criticism after his mistakes, where he does realize he screwed up and should have kept faith

[crisp heath]

When in fact he knew everything and decided nit to choose sides and let everything play out

No, it's Tuesday big es fault. Plain and simple.

The entire Heresy is

And everything that stemmed from it

Every single thing can be drawn back to his actions or inactions

[summer mural]

also, the council of nikea concluded in the right call

[crisp heath]

No it didnt

Literally multiple primarchs are quoted as saying that was a mistake later on

[summer mural]

at the time it did, magnus's psykers had been turning into chaos spawn during the great crusade

[crisp heath]

Because the big e sat back and did nothing!!!

When he could have easily solved it

[summer mural]

what did you want him to do? reverse their transformation? he straight up tells magnus during the sot that dabbling in unchecked sorcery is a guaranteed ticket to having extra limbs and turning into a gibbering fleshy thing, and because theyve been dabbling in unchecked sorcery and cutting deals with unknown entities, his legion cant be saved

[crisp heath]

No. He needed to actually teach them the dangers, and warn them of the real consequences, which he never did.

Not until after the fact

Also to stand up and speak on his knowledge at Nikea, and what was actually happening within magnus's group. Also, you ask that like the emperor couldn't have stopped it if he wanted to

[summer mural]

he didnt have to tbh, if theyd followed the nikea decree, if magnus hadnt once again cut a deal with tzeentch in pursuit of noble intentions by once again using the warp and then immediately regretting it when he learnt of the webway project, if magnus hadnt sided with horus even after learning that horus was enslaved to chaos and had manipulated russ, he would have had a better chance at actually solving his problems

[tulip brook]

The guy is leading 18 legions, myriad of soldiers all across the galaxy in a rush to conquer it all. Should he go middle manager and fix every legion or should the leaders be expected to have sensible decisions and take responsibility, reach for help if they're not able to?

[crisp heath]

But again, all of that shouldn't have happened

The nikea decree shouldn't have happemed

[summer mural]

like, magnus straight up refused to follow orders ( and his intentions in doing so were very noble and loyal) but he believed he could handle anything as long as he did things for the right reasons against the decrees of the emperor, his hubris and blind faith in his own free will when he was being manipulated the whole time got him turned into a big red chicken

[crisp heath]

No, he should fix the one literally rewriting reality with the powers of daemon gods he granted to them and gave them no manual on, meanwhile holding the whole damn grimoire in his head lol

The rest would probably be fine on their own

[tulip brook]

Same with nikea, should big e start opening a big school and teach everyone what he's been hiding? When he can just go stfu and don't use warp powers and focus on war?

[crisp heath]

But that one needed extra attention he didn't give any

Again, literally a whole legion of reality warpers

Needs extra attention

[tulip brook]

A whole legion of grown ass men being told not to do something

[crisp heath]

That their literally purpose built for

[summer mural]

like, even with horus himself , when horus was having his own downfall after being stabbed with the blade, magnus appeared to him in a vision to tell him erebus was in fact secretly manipulating him, which was true, and done for all the right reasons, of course horus, who was still uncorrupted, saw this and went " dude, you're using warp sorcery to do this when youve been told not to, why the hell would I trust you right now"

[crisp heath]

Psychers can't just not be psychers

[tulip brook]

Their literal purpose is to go fight wars with the equipment they have

[green loom]

I'd like to point out that there was an actual debate going on until magnus full on sabotaged his entire point

[crisp heath]

Lol this isn't going anywhere. Have fun blaming magnus I'm dine...

[crisp heath]

This...

[green loom]

The entire reason it was called was because Magnus and co were partaking in reckless sorcery

Which he continues to do!

[crisp heath]

Like there was a literal debate and if big e steps in at any point instead of letting magnus shoot himself in the foot

[summer mural]

he did

its called the council of nikea

[crisp heath]

.... at the fucking council

[green loom]

You're aware it was a full on council and not just a sentencing?

[crisp heath]

I'm done though this is going in circles and now we're trolling

[crisp heath]

You're aware the initial reason it was called was because psychers were hated, and because there were multiple primarchs that had it out for magnus for no other reason than that and when they saw one transform they had all the evidence they needed?

[green loom]

Yuh

[crisp heath]

So it had little to do with any actual sorcery

[green loom]

There was even some false flag shenanigans in the background to help torpedo the pro pskyer stuff

[crisp heath]

Yep

[green loom]

And khan was conveniently sent on campaign by Horus

[green loom]

Well they hated sorcery, and wanted it gone, so I'd say it had enough to do with it tbh

[crisp heath]

But nothing specific

[tulip brook]

Burning of prospero was dumb and it justifies tsons turning traitor but rest of the stuff are just Magnus being a huge nerd

He did everything wrong

Even in prospero, the guy sulking while wolves massacring half of the population

[crisp heath]

Lol he didnt. He was the greatest psycher to live aside from big e. To expect him not to utilize his abilities, or experiment due to lack of knowledge is ignorant and the big E should have known better. Psychers can't help being psychers. It is what they are.

[tulip brook]

Yeah he knew more than everyone else other than emperor, still went super reckless and got corrupted

[crisp heath]

Dude, he knew more than everyone else only because he was forced into being reckless by not being told anything by big E

[summer mural]

if the thousand sons were just allowed to continue being as they were during the nikea era, they would have all just turned into chaos spawn

[crisp heath]

Never would have been corrupted if he knew what to look out for

@summer mural not necessarily true at all

[tulip brook]

Who is forcing a giant red man with a legion of supersoldiers?

[summer mural]

no its not, but its what everyone correctly assumed, because thats what they were witnessing throughout the great crusade

[crisp heath]

Dude.. ffs before he was a daemon...

@summer mural ehhh... again not exactly accurate

But sure

[summer mural]

his soldiers were mutating in front of everyones eyes, did you expect the primarchs to be like " oh yeah this happens, its ok"

[crisp heath]

Well, for 1, it wasn't as extreme as his soldiers just popping like popcorn. It happened sometimes. And two, yes. That is what happens and the emperor should have said that. "These are the consequences when yall fuck up. You turn into monsters and we have to put you down. Here's how not to do that."

Instead- silence

[summer mural]

it happened to them quite a bit, to the point where magnus felt the need to cut a deal with tzeentch out of necessity, because the thousand sons dont happen to have psykers here and there, they love it, and relentlessy pursue sorcery

[crisp heath]

That was after a time. It took time for it to ramp up

And again, tzeentch had to trick him

He didn't know it was tzeentch he was making the deal with

If I'm not mistaken, he thought it was the emperor whispering to him

[tulip brook]

Coincidentally, emps showed exactly how not to do that, by... not doing any of that

[crisp heath]

... no

The emperor literally uses power like it's nothing

Far more than any of them ever have

And never once has to deal with corruption, as he's anathema

They aren't even in the same league

He never has to worry about what normal psychers, even magnus, had to worry about

His power is free to him

[tulip brook]

What I'm saying is, he totally knew they will keep using warp. He banned its usage so they can't use it out in the open and have to be discrete. A good way to protect themselves

[crisp heath]

Which was stupid and shortsighted for someone like the emperor

[tulip brook]

Abolishing librarius was dumb tho

[crisp heath]

And again, leads credence to his planning for the Heresy

Very true

[summer mural]

yes he didnt, magnus did it out necessity as I said, because he wanted to save his sons, but he couldnt stop pursuing knowledge and sorcery in the warp, his thirst for knowledge and playing with the warp trapped him in a bad situation, thats exactly how you fall to tzeentch

[crisp heath]

And again, if the Emperor warns him of this, as it's fairly obvious the Son you tailor made to be Sorcerer Supreme will probably use his abilities and dabble.

And should probably look out for the big blue feathered bird in the warp and know to run

[tulip brook]

Btw, 30k has some baffling decisions here and there... Word Bearers sending chaplains to every legion even after istvaan5

[summer mural]

its not just about dabbling though, magnus himself knew he screwed up by using the warp and tzeentch to contact the emperor, because he realized screwing up the barrier and the webway project wasnt worth it

[crisp heath]

No shit

[summer mural]

which is why he was all mopey and depressed during the fall of prospero because he knew he screwed up

[crisp heath]

But that's knowledge he gained after the fact

Had he known before hand he wouldn't have done so

[summer mural]

its a mistake he acknowledged, because if hed just obeyed the emperor instead of using the warp, like hed been ordered to, it wouldnt have happened

[crisp heath]

Exactly

[tulip brook]

The guy was told he's reckless even when he was a kid

He never listened anyway

[crisp heath]

But if the emperor ever deigned to elaborate to magnus once on the why's of things, shit doesn't happen. And again, people seem to forget they could communicate across the entire galaxy telepathically, easily. As if breathing. Had been doing so from the womb. So to say the emperor didn't have time is plain wrong. Dude could send it as fast as he thought it and decided not to and got mad when Magnus decided to do what he thought was the right thing and had the courage to defy his Lirds orders to do so.

[summer mural]

its arrogance in his own abilties

[tulip brook]

Ok Leman Russ didn't have to turn him into a galaxy wide fetch quest but his own decisions led him there

[green loom]

Me when I don't care about my subjects

[summer mural]

khan is the best example, khan acknowledged right from the moment the emperor landed on chogoris that this dude aint perfect, and the imperium is pretty screwed up , but to him it was never a reason to believe he could do things better

[crisp heath]

@summer mural it's not arrogance!!!! It's ignorance. He had every right to be as confident in his abilities as he was, his teacher simply gave up teaching him half way

[tulip brook]

Why not both

[summer mural]

its arrogance because magnus doesnt believe hes ignorant lol

[crisp heath]

Because, he again had every right ti be confident in his abilities, and arguably still does. He's the greatest psycher to exist bar the emperor.

And yes he did, he just now doesn't because he's on the side he was ignorant ti before

[summer mural]

yeah, and the better psyker ordered him to stop messing with the warp

which he defied

why? because hes arrogant

[crisp heath]

And never explained

No, because it's literally impossible for him

Dude was literally made that way

By the dude ordering him not to be the way he was made

See the paradox?

Easily fixed if the dude ordering him taught him literally anything

[tulip brook]

Voices made him do it

[summer mural]

his beloved did

[crisp heath]

... lol that made me laugh a bit ngl

[summer mural]

" My beloved, I know you are a shifty piece of something, but I gotta get this done for the sake of the imperium, I got no idea why dad put up this massive barrier that even i cant shatter, so how about you help me break it even though I know you're shifty, its good for the imperium"
tzeentch " Oh yeah sure, of course man, anything for the imperium"

[crisp heath]

I hate that... lol by that point yes, he knew he was getting help from something that wasn't the emperor, but he also had no info to go off of. He didn't know there were things in the warp to fear yet, not truly anyway. Didn't know the emperors plans or why a barrier had been erected. He was sailing through fog and was blamed for hitting an iceberg.

[tulip brook]

Meanwhile in dark imperium: psychic messages get interrupted, we decided to use Cato Sicarius as messenger boy

[crisp heath]

@green loom btw, you're art is dope

Should have said something sooner, but I really dig it man

[summer mural]

whats truly sad about the thousand sons falling is the thousand sons themselves

those marines werent excessive or eccentric or prone to butchering civilians, they followed their primarchs orders, left planets in better conditions than when they arrived and just straight up had no fucking clue what was going when the space wolves started destroying a city theyd maintained as one of the best in the galaxy, they fought to save their lives in utter confusion and their beloved primarch spent a long time moping in his tower about how hed screwed up while they got killed

and then of course, then their souls got turned into ash and encased in their armor because they were turning into chaos spawn at an alarming rate , all of which because theyd been told that pursuing the warp is okay

[primal gate]

The idea here at play is that if he had told him some other calamity would have occured. We are only now getting backstory about all the various enemies in play that would or could use knowledge of what the EMP was up to to stop his plans. What we cannot know is all the other outcomes that did not happen that were avoided by secrecy. Its easy to say secrecy caused these problems because that is the trope being explored. But you have to realize secrecy has value in a galaxy filled with your very powerful enemies.

Most of the story is told in terms of a Greek Tragedy, where many plot points occur off stage and we the audience just must accept certain facts as true to have a proper appreciation. Its easy to get frustrated placing yourself in EMP shoes, but the entire mythology demands that you recognize the EMP knows more than you do.

[primal gate]

He did not trust the Emporor. He thought himself capable to discover the truth on his own and like a child he realized too late his fault.

One thing I really like about the End and the death 2 is we get to see another perpetual, a really old person, show the emp he is not an island of wisdom. That he makes mistakes. Indeed that he is NOT an all knowing god. I think the entire plot demands you assume, the emp did his very best. The tragedy is made more profound for that realization.

[potent karma]

What happened to the remaining armageddon survivors after the Months of Shame?

[storm jungle]

They mostly all got killed.

or got sent to concentration camps lol

[green loom]

Didn't they turn out to actually be cultists lol

[storm jungle]

just chaos infused lmao

[spring cairn]

like tea

but with people

[normal light]

[crisp heath]

@primal gate lol this idea he didn't trust the emperor is false. Dude thought of each other as best friends. Again, literally they had been talking to one another since before his birth, and out of all the primarchs, they seemed the closest to one another. And the entire plot doesn't demand we believe the Emperor did his best. That's why there's a major theory about whether or not the entire time he planned the whole heresy and knew half his sons would turn traitor. Secrecy obviously has its place, but I think its extremely reasonable to assume a legion of reality warpers might need extra attention from the guy who's the epitome of humanity's psychic might. Like, again, the idea that just because nobody else asked means a question has no merit is a blatantly ignorant fallacy. This was not information that needed to be kept secret from them specifically. The entire Imperium does not need to know about Chaos. That is a liability as even small knowledge of it can lead to a lay person's corruption, but when it comes to the Thousand Sons? They are the best of the best of humanities psychers, made into marines. Their day to day lives were filled with magic regular psychers can only dream of, and waded deeper into the warp than any other (at their time). Their whole existence was fraught with walking a a tight rope they couldn't see and didn't know existed, let alone the void underneath themselves. I refuse to sit here and accept the Magnus carries all the fault when we take everything into account. The vast majority falls squarely on the emperors shoulders. Big E needed to speak up, and never did.

[storm jungle]

Honestly its just not worth to get into as an argument imo because the reality is Magnus just needed a reason to fall to chaos and the writers just half-assed the explanation and tried to fix the gaps later with novels that ironically kinda made the situation even more dumber.

Like this subject is also as much as I don't wanna be rude; not that deep

the Emperor is just a genius and a moron when the plot requires it

[median marsh]

The more you learn about emps the dumber it gets

[storm jungle]

^

like this isn't peak fiction like LOTR, the motivations for these characters were pre-set and the journey there is very clumsy

[primal gate]

The EMP told him to knock it off and wait, that he had plans for him. He did not knock it off, he did not wait. He did not trust the EMP had a plan.

[queen laurel]

Most peaceful warhammer related argument

[median marsh]

Gorgutz at slightest inconvenience

Alt title Gorgutz tries his hand at being a chiropractor

[primal gate]

" but I think its extremely reasonable to assume a legion of reality warpers might need extra attention" You have hindsight. Its a tragic story, its supposed to unravel.

[crisp heath]

... he literally couldnt... that's like telling a dog not to bark. The emperor gave him an ultimatum he obviously couldn't follow with no explanation. Anybody would fail that

And the emperor has the best foresight in all of humanity

[primal gate]

Either you can control yourself or not. if not then the emp made a mistake trusting magnus.

which he did, obviously.

[storm jungle]

Bro its just dumb writing.

💀

Its what you get when you got too many cooks in the kitchen, which is what the Black Library is.

[primal gate]

I would not call it dumb, it like all Tragedy, and really all fiction, requires that you suppress your own self, your own disbelief, to aquire the context.

[storm jungle]

Ehhhhhh

id say its arguable with 40k

this is a setting for products first, fiction second

[crisp heath]

@storm jungle lol I agree. Just don't like how everybody always puts the blame on magnus when it very quite obviously always boils down to big es actions or lack thereof

[storm jungle]

Magnus was definitely at fault but so was everyone else is the correct take.

[primal gate]

Look a company hires me to write a book, I am not trying to sell plastic figures, but I agree the overarching plot, which was developed by people decades ago, was deigned to create a, "Grim dark forever war"

[green loom]

Zex

[storm jungle]

You can at least try to make the plot make sense lol

"Oh Magnus just sat on his ass and let his planet be bombed because he wanted to repent."

[crisp heath]

@storm jungle like, magnus made mistakes. I just don't agree those mistakes were his fault specifically.

[storm jungle]

It KINDA was but everyone was at fault to a degree

[crisp heath]

That was definitely a wtf moment for sure

[storm jungle]

he wasnt the sole perpetrator

[primal gate]

I personally would not read books I had this negative opinion about. I would think that would waste my time and expose me to being emo online..

[storm jungle]

the Emperor set up the jenga tower that was flimsy as shit, Magnus just bumped into it.

[green loom]

Magnus biggest fault is being a moron

[earnest snow]

I'm just saying that if magnus wasn't a nerd and Russ wasn't a gymbro then maybe the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves woulda gotten along better

But sometimes

life is just that way

[storm jungle]

Also a correct take

[crisp heath]

Lol oh noooo, I'm exposed. How scene

[primal gate]

The EMP did not setup the Jinga tower, he came out of the woodwork after total apocolypse and put back together humpty dumpty, it was never meant to be. That is the nature of tagedy.

[crisp heath]

Lol I actually like the books, but it's a fair criticism to say that the writing sometimes is lacking, especially in the earlier books

[green loom]

When the excerpt comes in

[primal gate]

Its fair when its correct.

Read a hundred books a year for 40 years and get back with me about what is good writing.

[crisp heath]

Lol bro fuck outta here. You got your book reports too?

[earnest snow]

If you want good writing just write the word good

ffs

[primal gate]

None of that made any sense to me.

But I will imagine it was a great dig.

[crisp heath]

Gonna talk shit about the amount of books you read like some how that makes you an authority on writing quality

[primal gate]

It actually does, I also went to school for it, but people go to school for all kinds of stuff that they end up knmowing nothing about.

If you keep doing the work for decades, you do end up having a decent perspective.

[crisp heath]

I just find it laughable you're flaunting that in a Discord server like it makes you hot shit

[primal gate]

Flauting it? I am merely stating a fact that makes you feel a certain kind of way.

[storm jungle]

If you two start fighting im gonna slap you both.

Just be civil.

[crisp heath]

Pwomise?@storm jungle

Lol

[primal gate]

Slap away. Nothing I said is uncivil.

[storm jungle]

[crisp heath]

Yes ma'am

🤣

[storm jungle]

Then stop perpetuating the argument.

[normal light]

There will be no order, only Chaos

[primal gate]

What argument? That tragedy is exactly how the story is written? That it is written from a mythos perspective with very rare opportunities to see into the EMP's mind and that we should avoid characterizing the story from our own perspective? No, I think I will keep discussing this topic.

[storm jungle]

[crisp heath]

Flaunting. This was quite obviously not stated as a fact, but a brag and used to deny the veracity of what we called poor writing.

[primal gate]

Its ok to have your opinion, but lets not try to use the Royal "we".

[crisp heath]

Lol and it's OK to have yours, just don't think your 40 years of bs is going to influence anyone

[primal gate]

My opinion is only mine and I can be wrong. I love good reasoning that provides me information about how I am wrong because that is usually the way we discover truth. The void of being wrong is filled with knowledge. Take all such challenges to heart and you will become wiser for it.

[crisp heath]

And "we" was because multiple people said what I just said

Or did you forget how to scroll too?

[primal gate]

You do not need to bolster your opinion with others, many people can all be wrong together.

[crisp heath]

Lol true, but one dude in a crowd shouting he's right isn't a good look either

[earnest snow]

This convo makes me wanna crit my pants

I swear

[primal gate]

Seriously, no offense bud, plenty of your comments above I agreed with. No reason to feel a certain kind of way about anything I said.

[median marsh]

Life wolfer reaction

[normal light]

And Life Scab Bruiser reaction

[celest dome]

Is Ghost fighting with someone again ?

[primal gate]

MAybe instead of being salty, take my opinion with a grain of salt and consider what I have said. I went and re-read parts of Master of Mankind just now because I was not sure if I got everyhing correct when addressing something someone else said earlier.

[storm jungle]

What did I say earlier.

[crisp heath]

Lol so like, definitely shouldn't have taken this as having implied we don't read enough to know good quality, but you with your 40 years has the authority to say what's good and what's not? That thing i shouldn't be offended by?

[normal light]

It’s hard to call this a fight

[storm jungle]

Last warning. Stop.

drop the goddamn subject or be civil

[primal gate]

I apologize but I do see youth in your comments and I am old and very well read.

[storm jungle]

Xuld for the love of god

💀

[primal gate]

I am being civil.

I am triyng to deescalate.

[crisp heath]

Lol

[storm jungle]

You can be civil and be quiet instead of pulling the "Im wiser and I see your errors" thing.

it doesnt help with most people

[celest dome]

You're just taunting

[queen laurel]

Ohh hey that's the image I showed you guys

[storm jungle]

Anyway yeah move on.

or just stop interacting with each other

[primal gate]

I disagree.

Everyone wants to say the writing is garbage but no one provides any examples of good writing they would prefer it looked like. I want good reading lists folks, not angsty comments about stories that are understood from the wrong context.

But alas..I am fishing for substance in all the wrong places..

[crisp heath]

Someone who's read hundreds of books every day for 40 years doesn't need a reading list. You've read them all bro. You're the best 🙇‍♂️.

Everything you say is followed by a snarky remark that nullifies whatever civilty you had in your original remark. If you're gonna be an ass, at least go full tilt. Now, I want to do what @storm jungle has said, so I'll be going afk for awhile. But for someone as supposedly old as you are and wants to come off wise as you obviously do, you really seem to come off petty and immature. But here, I got a series for you that's incredibly well written. The Wheel of Time saga. Have fun with that for a while if you haven't read it, should keep you busy for a bit.

[green loom]

Joehammer

[spring cairn]

wolfer never skips arm day

instead he skips forearm day

[queen laurel]

This actually looks pretty cool

[median marsh]

Wolfer is j a c k e d

His armor actually makes him look less buff

[crisp heath]

Lol he really is. Got that big hero 6 bod

[spring cairn]

biceps looking huge but his forearms are weirdly modelled

[crisp heath]

Reminds me of dudes who juice. He's got that barrel chest and massive biceps, and his forearms just don't match

[spring cairn]

synthoil injections are certainly a thing

[median marsh]

one thing I keep wondering about

They had wolfer captured...and also let him keep most of his armor

[crisp heath]

Well, being a nurgle follower, might very well have been the only thing keeping him together@median marsh

[normal light]

They didn`t have proper prison robe

[tulip brook]

Leave the poor guy alone. It's not his fault his armor is fused to his skin

[crisp heath]

Who knows what his guts look like underneath that chest piece

[median marsh]

The sight of naked wolfer was too strong

[summer mural]

whats the general eldar elite infantry called

excluding wraithguard

[storm jungle]

Aspect Warriors?

or do you mean troops

[summer mural]

troops, but I dunno what an aspect warrior is

I know what uh howlling banshees are, those outcast rangers, the warp spiders and some others, but my knowledge of the eldar army roster is limited

aeldari actually

referring to aeldari

the wraithguard,wraithlord, seers, avatars of khaine

so whos like, the aeldar elite

[storm jungle]

Guardians are your basic eldar troop, they are more technically a militia since its citizens of an eldar craftworld who take up arms when they have to go to war or defend their home

[summer mural]

yeah I know guardians

and warlocks

[storm jungle]

The elite who can go toe to toe and kill space marines and other big boy faction elites are Aspect Warriors

Basically they are eldar who walk the Path of the Warrior (very much like bushido) and choose an aspect of war hence the name to master and fight for.

If they get too lost on this path they become Exarchs who are like sergeants to them and they can never leave their temple do to knowing nothing but war and are dangerous to their other brethren beyond the walls of their shrine

Aspect Warriors are very much samurai-coded in the way they conduct war and fight.

[wicked lion]

still think their helmets are stupid lookin

[storm jungle]

shut up lmao

[wicked lion]

XD

[storm jungle]

Its prob because its modelled on greek helmets

eldar are a big box of cultural inspiration

[summer mural]

arent warp spiders also aspect warriors

[median marsh]

Remember, the more elaborate your helmet is the stronger you are

(also somehow works backwards, of you have no helmet you're more powerful)

[summer mural]

well the backwards part is true for guilliman and magnus

[storm jungle]

Yes they are.

you can see them on the right side at the end of the line

[green loom]

Dire avengers gang

[dusk patrol]

Tbf it’s mostly an art thing, in most books if it’s an option most everyone has helmets most of the time.

Some exceptions but mostly

[median marsh]

yeah, it's just funny

It's not a Warhammer exclusive thing too

[dusk patrol]

Let’s people be more expressive

Can only go so far with helmets having “faces”

[median marsh]

It works as a visual guide to "hey, this guy/gal must be important"

[green loom]

The step after no helmet is no skin

If your head is just a skull you're the most important

[pine wedge]

it's so common that halo's inversion of the trope is part of what made master chief so iconic

main spartan hero of the story? doesn't matter. the helmet stays on.

[green loom]

Isn't that mostly a game thing

[dusk patrol]

No

Even in the books he rarely takes it off

[green loom]

Ah

[pine wedge]

it's a visual medium thing

[storm jungle]

As the first game established Master Chief's actual head is also a helmet.

[green loom]

But what if we consider the silver timeline canon

[dusk patrol]

He does though but it’s not common

[pine wedge]

just look at lord of the rings trilogy. the entire gondor army is wearing helmets... except aragorn.

[dusk patrol]

He’s described as extremely pale

For obvious reasons

[pine wedge]

important characters(tm) get to show off their heads, nameless mooks wear helmets

[dusk patrol]

The guy they got for the Halo show unironically I don’t think is a bad fit for what he’s typically described as in the books it’s just uh

Every other fucking thing

[median marsh]

human as a covenant spy

[storm jungle]

I'd have made him bald with hair stubs and thats kind of it

[median marsh]

chief casually committing a warcrime with said human

[dusk patrol]

Including him fucking a goddamn covenant spy while Cortana watches like jfc writers

What the fuck

[storm jungle]

That scene felt straight out of 40k

and thats not a good thing

[pine wedge]

the people they put in charge of tv show adaptations of videogames are truly a special breed

[crisp heath]

but why

[dusk patrol]

That scene felt straight out of a bad kink fanfic

[pine wedge]

like this

just incredible stuff

[pine wedge]

I have no idea man.

[dusk patrol]

“Movies are pretty simple, the good guy goes and fights some bad dudes, he wins, saves the day.”

“Oppenheimer changed that.”

Or some shit

[pine wedge]

perfect comparison LOL

[summer mural]

I still havent seen the halo show ( which ive heard is garbage) or the last of us show( which ive heard is excellent)

[queen laurel]

i think it's a generally given point in fiction that if that character is so iconic that removing their mask feels out of place then they must be tougher than reinforced concrete

[green loom]

"intercourse is pretty simple, you go to bed, and that's it"
"The Marquis de Sade changed that"

[pine wedge]

the showrunner or head writer or something of the witcher tv series also had absolutely no respect for or familiarity with the source material and thought henry cavill was "annoying" for his eagerness to play geralt and his efforts for trying to make a faithful adaptation

[dusk patrol]

The Halo show is similar to the Witcher where you have this baffling case of a writer room who thinks they’re better than the source material

[pine wedge]

I hope to all the great gods of nowhere that amazon is going to actually give cavill the reigns for the 40k adaptations

[green loom]

I kinda despised him for most of it NGL

[pine wedge]

"what he says, goes"

[dusk patrol]

Where they probably wanna be writing their own thing but they’re “stuck” with the source material

[green loom]

Dandelion was the best casting

[versed ledge]

Yeah, but remember what Amazon did to Lord of the rings?

[wicked lion]

which is stupid considering they are only making a show because the demand for more of the source material was so high

[summer mural]

the only thing im curious about the 40k show is what exactly is cavill gonna be playing, like is he gonna a regular hoomie ? a marine? the emprah?

[dusk patrol]

And then they’re go all when people don’t like their shitty changes and fanfic

[green loom]

I also remember the boys and invincible

[wicked lion]

its kinda wild

[green loom]

His role is less acting oriented

[pine wedge]

he's executive producer

[dusk patrol]

Lord of the Rings at least makes sense because they were so limited in what they could do

[summer mural]

ohhh

[wicked lion]

wait theyre making a 40k show?

[pine wedge]

so he's the loremaster, not the actor

[wicked lion]

what?

HOW?

[pine wedge]

though he might be starring in it as well

who knows

[green loom]

And apparently it was like an excuse to expand production facilities or some shit

[wicked lion]

u dont just make 40k shows

[pine wedge]

not his most important job though

[queen laurel]

Lately the amount of game related shows showing up is a lot more and I can say they are a lot better than you know the past for ******** fallout is getting one

[summer mural]

thats actually better, it pretty much does imply he has some creative control

[green loom]

He's there for connections and shit

Mostly

And maybe acting as a char

[wicked lion]

because theres no way ur going to make it lore friendly while also making it viewer friendly

[pine wedge]

amazon has signed an agreement with games workshop to create 40k content, yeah.

[dusk patrol]

I do hope that is good, the trailer is promising

[pine wedge]

yeah it's good

[dusk patrol]

Goggins as a gunslinger ghoul is just perfect

[summer mural]

its also live action though, which is scary af

[wicked lion]

lmao its gonna fucking flop unless the people writing it are massive 40k nerds

[queen laurel]

same i fuckin love fallout

[wicked lion]

because its either getting boycotted by twitter or boycotted by 40k fans

[pine wedge]

that's why henry cavill is executive producer

[green loom]

It'd flop especially if the writers were 40k nerds

[pine wedge]

he plays custodes and shit

[green loom]

40k nerds are horrible

[wicked lion]

its gonna flop either way really

[dusk patrol]

If it’s a good show it’s a good show

[wicked lion]

either, its too 40k and only 40k fans will like it

[dusk patrol]

That’s what matters at the end of the day, the built in audience helps a lot

[green loom]

Bro 40k is generic as sin lol

[summer mural]

apparently cavills favourite chapters are blood angels and salamanders

[storm jungle]

We get to win either way so look at it that way.

[queen laurel]

I am having a bit more faith than usual at the 40K show because it is being made with Amazon

[wicked lion]

or its not very 40k, and 40k fans wont like it and the general audience will watch the first season and forget about it

[queen laurel]

But hey only a little amount of faith because **** the world

[dusk patrol]

I think you’re underestimating how starved people are for 40k visual media

[green loom]

Also twitterhammer is majorly racist grognards now so if something makes them sad then that's good

[summer mural]

Custodes Cavill, " Winds howling"

[storm jungle]

I mean im secretly hoping it flops.

I hate the cult of personality 40k fans have made around Cavill, its genuinely unsettling.

[wicked lion]

the only good pitches ive heard for 40k shows were given by the fucking adric podcast

[green loom]

Who

[wicked lion]

and its because they were rediculous concepts

[dusk patrol]

Now it definitely could suck don’t get me wrong but 40k fans get behind some dogshit products already because it’s a 40k game or whatever

[wicked lion]

adeptus rediculous

[green loom]

Disgusting

[dusk patrol]

Just do Eisenhorn it’s not complex

[summer mural]

do cain

[wicked lion]

they proposed like 2 shows one of which was entirely a meme one of which wouldve actually been pretty fun

[green loom]

It's not hard to make good 40k content

[versed ledge]

Next thing you know 40k neck beards will make Cavill either the equivalent of the emperor or Girlyman

[dusk patrol]

It’s fairly low budget, small cast, shows the world well

[green loom]

Well

It's very much overstated how hard it is

[summer mural]

I hope they dont do the horus heresy smh

[dusk patrol]

They’re not gonna do the heresy

[green loom]

Because the moronic fandom can only think "DUHHH SPACE MARINE HORUS HERESU DUYHHHH"

[median marsh]

Heresy is going to be utterly fukin incomprehensible to general audience

[dusk patrol]

I mean also like

[green loom]

Because none of them even look into shit like crimehammer, or Eisenhorn

[dusk patrol]

The fucking budget

Sci fi is expensive to do for a reason

[wicked lion]

although an ork show would be pretty hard to fuck up

[dusk patrol]

The smaller scale they can make it the better

[wicked lion]

gimme ork show ill watch it

but like

[dusk patrol]

Why the hell would they do an Ork show

[wicked lion]

saturday morning cartoons on some teen channel cartoon

[summer mural]

a live action ork show

[green loom]

I think you've got some screws loose up here

[dusk patrol]

Thats a worse idea than a heresy show

[wicked lion]

get whoever wrote the original johnny test show to write an ork show

[dusk patrol]

Not to mention an Ork show would be expensive as fuck

[summer mural]

yeah but, youd get folks in a studio all screaming " WAAAAGGHHH, KRUMP DAT SHINY GIT BOYZ"

worth it, 10/10

[storm jungle]

You can make any material work with the right ideas and budget.

[green loom]

Except if you're using 40k fans for ideas

[storm jungle]

LOL

[tulip brook]

I want something generic af and a good introduction. Make ultramarines do ultramarine things

[green loom]

I wouldn't trust a 40k fan with this IP because they either miss the point, suck at writing, or both

Hell most fans can barely write coherently as is

[median marsh]

Most fans don't even know like 80% of the setting

[green loom]

To the point "Emperor" is shockingly often misspelled as "Emporer"

[summer mural]

but the Emporium of Man sounds much more attractive than the imperium of man

[green loom]

IVE READ SOMEONE

WRITE HORUS HERESY AS HORSE HERSAY

[tulip brook]

And it's ok, setting is big and different parts attract different audiences

WHORES

[median marsh]

whorus

[tulip brook]

... that 4chan copypasta was hilarious

[median marsh]

"It's too late Horus! I've already depicted myself as a golden god and you as a soyjack!"

[earnest snow]

I'm ignoring the fact Cavill is doing something 40k related until the production of said media is proven to be worth my time. Otherwise I will gaslight myself into it not being real, thus I'm happy.

[median marsh]

I keep forgetting it even exists to be honest

[green loom]

It won't for another... 3 years?

[earnest snow]

People being passionate about a universe doesn't equal they will actually give the setting the respect it deserves. For all we know it could just be a circle jerk for a single faction.

But yeah I'm just waiting to see if its worth my time

[green loom]

Cavill isn't really in writing or anything rn btw

He's there since he has industry connections n shiz

[earnest snow]

Makes sense

[green loom]

I imagine most ideas will be filtered through GW

[earnest snow]

At least we know what to possibly expect from GW

[summer mural]

is vulkans fatal flaw literally pyromania

[spring cairn]

I hope it's good, because I enjoy a good show, especially good sci-fi wich is somewhat rare

[earnest snow]

No its being a perpetual. He is only allowed into the plot when the authors allow him

[summer mural]

sounds like a blessing

[earnest snow]

Which I hope soon cus we really need a lot of back breaking hugs

[median marsh]

Being unable to die sounds cool until you go completely bonkers

[earnest snow]

I also hope its good, but I am setting my expectations low or cyncial depending on how I'm feeling. If I'm proven right then I cry, if I'm wrong I cry.

[median marsh]

Or the entire collection of things Curze did to him

[summer mural]

he hasnt lost his mind per se though

[earnest snow]

Didn't Vulkan remind Curze that his hammer is in fact a hammer and not just a teleporation device

[median marsh]

He did and it was funny as fuck

[earnest snow]

or is that me being schizo

[spring cairn]

If show good I watch, if show bad I don't, simple

[earnest snow]

Good

[spring cairn]

except if show is bad in a funny way

[summer mural]

yeah, thats after enduring all the hilarious torture and beating kurze at his own game in the maze

[earnest snow]

If its gonna be a shitpost at least give us like

[green loom]

His fatal flaw is serving the imperium

[earnest snow]

The 40k version of trailer park boys on a forgotten world that isn't important enough to be policed thus we have various factions interacting in a trailer park

Oblivious to the horrors and dangers of the universe

[spring cairn]

I would love it to be crimehammer personally

[earnest snow]

Vulkan really survived all of that just to remind Curze that his hammer is a hammer

[spring cairn]

so we could get some practical effect of dirty scrawny hivers with their augment and stuff

would be nice

[earnest snow]

That be nice

Depends on how the team and GW want this product to be.

[spring cairn]

but since it's the first 40k show ever done

i'm 90% sure it'll include space marines in some capacity

[earnest snow]

If its an introduction-esk kinda thing then well its gonna be: "THIS IS WHAT THE UNIVERSE IS ABOUT AND THIS IS WHAT WE DO IN IT. ISN'T IT GOD AWFUL? BUT WAIT ITS NOT ALL AWFUL! LOOK AT THESE SPESH MUREEENNNSSSSS!!!!"

and if thats the case

I'm blowing my brains out with a mouse trap

[bold veldt]

hope and pray its not like the halo show

[remote widget]

Eldar are dicks with as bad a sense of scale as anyone

[earnest snow]

John Ultramarine falls in love with Jane Word-Bearer and tries to survive the chaos of the dark imperium so they can settle down on a fuedal world to live simple lives

[green loom]

Impossible, GW are too control-freaky and they've got a dude in charge who actually kinda likes 40k

[remote widget]

'I need to doom an entire exploratory fleet out of the galaxy or my ex the warrior monk won't give me babies

[bold veldt]

all that for them to settle down in like a planet called Grux or something

[earnest snow]

Where all they do is ranch

Grox Ranch

[green loom]

The 40k fandom just loves fear mongering about shit

[spring cairn]

If it's not crimehammer I hope it's guard centric

[green loom]

The show will likely be...... fine

[earnest snow]

I love fear mongering because it makes me smile when I shit post

[spring cairn]

anything but the big marines

[earnest snow]

Idc what it is as long as its good

[spring cairn]

it could still be good with marines but

[bold veldt]

alpha legion?

[spring cairn]

I sense the CGI fest marines will be

[green loom]

Same

[earnest snow]

They will just get a giant from Siberia to play a marine don't worry

[green loom]

In fairness they've got Amazon budget to do weird shitn

[earnest snow]

or from Scandinavia

[spring cairn]

so I think it would be better to leave them out as cameo or just not being in

[earnest snow]

trust

[spring cairn]

plenty of stuff in 40k to write about

don't need marines

[green loom]

An inquisition show would be like, pretty simple to pull off

[bold veldt]

detective esk like eisenhorn books yea

[earnest snow]

Kinda tempted to see Marines get the fate that 2016 berserk got with its animation

https://tenor.com/view/berserk-guts-walk-anime-gif-9724918

This kinda stuff

[bold veldt]

wondering when itll take place honestly

[bold veldt]

oh my god

[green loom]

But just think of it like this

If it's good, yay

If it's bad, eh

Who cares

[bold veldt]

ill still watch jt

regardless

its being directed by our biggest posterboy no?

[median marsh]

Notice how the background guys are also being shifted right without the scenery moving

[green loom]

Non-book media for 40k has always been dubiously meaningful the setting so it's not like it'll screw with peoples' precious "lore"

[green loom]

Cavill got brought on cus industry experience ye

It's probably his people that know studios/writers and stuff

[spring cairn]

he's also a living peice of marketing

[green loom]

Yuh

[spring cairn]

because people know he likes 40k to some extent

[green loom]

Dude with a nice looking face

A shame most of his movies suck

[bold veldt]

and ofc he likes custodes

hes built like a custodes